Recently in another thread on this forum....I heard a heartfelt cry for something that really made me stop and think. Saying your sorry repeatedly as a means to somehow make up for the times that we ADD'ers fall short in our relationships....somehow loses it meaning if it is not recieved in a way that the other person really feels that it is sincere. As it was described.....this is not really making up for anything. It's just apeizing the anger Gods in the moment and not doing much of anything for the other person who is on the recieving end.....espeially when it keeps happening. I decided to go take a look at the other side of things for a change and see what they are saying about all of this. In another forum that has more predominantly people with ADHD and fewer non-ADHD folks contributing. In a thread (as shown below) I had the opportunity to say a couple things speaking directly to people who have ADHD like myself. I thought it might be nice to here this from the other side taking in what I have concluded from the time I have spent listening and reading what people have to say on both sides of the "anger issue" from those of us who struggle with this issue on our end...and for everyone else who has to deal with this on the recieving end.
And if there is any question or doubt that I have not been listening to the non ADHD'ers and the spouses who are married to us.....this one's for you. Thanks for being my eyes for things that are not always that easy to see.
Re: Anyone else lash out at times to family members/S.O. and don't realize it? (thread started by anonymous person with ADHD)
(my response mid thread)
Yep...what you said....take ownership of yourself and admit when you are wrong and apologize. That includes all of your ADHD behaviors no matter what the reason. And not to belabor the comment you made about Narcissism, I only want to add one more thing to what's already been said and finish my own train of thought from my previous post.
side note: it does appear that this topic is getting thrown around on both sides of this issue and Narcissism is also being discussed there as well.
There's a BIG difference between Narcissistic behavior and having NPD like you said.....everyone acts in their own self interest at times and this could be construed as acting or being Narcissistic in the technical sense....and to a certain degree, this would not be normal or healthy if you didn't for your own safety or well being. (healthy Narcissism?).
The delemma....(as I was attempting to say?) Is when others see (us) and our behavior and apply something else to it....which by default, is only what you know?
And if you have 95 out of 100 people sitting together in one big room, and the 5 people with ADHD start doing their thang....the first thing that is going to cross the minds of the other 95 people is not going to be ADHD. To the point....everyone including us understands a behavior that looks self serving or oblivious (or appears like you just don't care ) when they see it and they are going to attribute whatever label you like to it and jump to that conclusion.
The perfect analogy of how "perception" skews your thinking...
When the moon sits right off the horizon it appears bigger than when it is high in the sky. Everyone knows that the moon did not grow in size (hopefully? lol ) ...including you. But no matter how long you stare at it and try to change this phenomenon and resize it as you know it should be......knowing all of this....it still looks like it's bigger and it has grown in size as your eyes see it.
That's perception hard at work and there's nothing you can do to change that except to tell yourself that your eyes are playing tricks on you and what you see is not what it appears to be.
In this same sense.....this is what is happening to the other 95 people in the room. They know what they know (and feel what they feel).... even if you tell them that it's different and can prove it to them. But all the the proof in the world and every explanation you can provide them about ADHD and why it's not what they think they see is going to make any difference to this any more than the first time they saw it ......or change how they feel about it...... especially if you suddenly lose your ability to manage your own anger or irritation even if you have a good reason for it.
I think the only thing that will change how another person "feels" about this for them..... is an apology, accountability and taking ownership for it as you said.
Anything outside of that is only get to make them feel more annoyed at you than before I think? Not doing it again of course would solve the problem entirely.....but until that day happens...it's kind of a no brainier here if you follow my train of thought?
Being humble helps along with an apology too.
J
Saying your sorry repeatedly as a means to somehow make up for t
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
Saying your sorry repeatedly as a means to somehow make up for the times that we ADD'ers fall short in our relationships....somehow loses it meaning if it is not received in a way that the other person really feels that it is sincere. As it was described.....this is not really making up for anything. It's just appeasing the anger Gods in the moment and not doing much of anything for the other person who is on the receiving end.....especially when it keeps happening.
>>>
I think what annoys the non-ADHD partner is that the words ring hollow, even if the ADHD person "really" means them at the time (the now, not now). It's easy to really mean, "I'm sorry," when you're trying to get back in someone's good graces.
And, it's really easy to really mean, "I'm sorry," and even promise to "do XXXX" or "not do YYYY anymore," if it will just make the whole unpleasant confrontation "go away."
Have you ever had a young child ask for something and "promise" that later they will pay you back or "do a chore" later, in return. Perhaps you're at a store, and your teen wants a new pair of shoes. She promises that if you buy them, she'll clean the bathrooms for a month. At that moment, she really means it. You can see the intention in her eyes. However, once she's home, and she's worn the new shoes, the motivation is gone. Likely, she won't be cleaning any bathrooms after the first week or so.
Now, if you say to her, "I will buy the shoes, but I will keep them and the receipt. After you do X, Y, Z, then you'll have earned them, and I'll give you the shoes. If you don't do X, Y, Z, then I'll use the receipt and return the never-worn shoes." The latter approach teaches a lesson. And, it also teaches delayed and earned gratification.
With an adult partner, it's different because not only have they spent their life not learning enough important life-lessons, but unless they're beholding to their partner in other ways (financial, particularly), they have little motivation to truly implement long-lasting changes....particularly without resentment.
My H frequently breaks things. He's very rough with things. There's not much I can do with an adult with a good income. He wasn't held to any sort of standards as a child. If he broke or lost something, his mom just bought him new. If he saw something he wanted, she just bought it for him...there was no such thing as delayed-gratification.
Recently, he was careless with his new iPhone 6sPlus. He got it wet...purely out of carelessness. It was not a simple human mistake that anyone could do. He was very apologetic, but I knew that his words wouldn't change any future behavior because there isn't much that I (as a spouse) can hold over him to "encourage" better behavior. Luckily, the case that I had got him protected the phone.
As mentioned many times, parents can help mitigate some of these ADHD issues if they "make the kid" work for what he wants, and implements "delayed gratification."
When I was in the first grade, I really wanted a box of 64 crayons that I saw other kids had. My box had far fewer crayons. My mom told me that if I went a month without breaking any crayons (typical for a young child) , then she would buy me the bigger box. It worked. I was extremely careful with my box of crayons. It taught me to "be careful," and to treat things with respect. I was only 6 years old, but it was a lesson that stuck with me for the rest of my life.
It may seem that I've strayed from the topic of "saying you're sorry," but..... My point is just that for the non-ADHD partner to believe the, "I'm sorry," there has to be some "meat" to it. I'm not saying that the ADHD person needs to grovel, but the ADHD person should devise some sort of "consequence system" for himself if he fails to keep the promises to "do better," or "not do that again." The punishment could be a financial one or a physical one (like clean out the garage), or something else that can serve as a motivation or learning tool.
And, the "consequence system" can also have rewards as well. If the ADHD partner has been promising to get some project done for ages, but the project sits half-done in the middle of the living room, then meeting the completion goal by a certain date can mean some promised reward.
I remember when one of my sons (who suffers from a bit of ADHD) was feeling anxious about the job application process after he got out of college. He'd fill out an application here or there, but he wasn't job-hunting like he really should! He wanted this new hand-held Nintendo thing (DS 3D? don't remember, this was a few years ago). I told him that I would buy it, but I would keep it....and each day, after he applied for 3 real jobs, he could play with it until 10 pm and then I would get it back. The rule would repeat each day. It worked. Within the week he had a fabulous job offer....a job that he still has and has gotten 3 promotions. He's now in management making a top salary.
I can't edit the above...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Anyway....so when the ADHD spouse just resorts to an, "I'm sorry," just to make the conversation "go away," the Non partner is just going to be frustrated because there's no feeling that anything is going to change (without some real motivation in place...like fear that the spouse will kick their butt to the curb or limit access to money.)
I tThink For a Start...
Submitted by kellyj on
Knowing what to apologize for is really important.
"I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this and my problems are becoming your problems. I would never wish that upon anyone and and I know that makes me a monumental pain in the ass the live with at times. I will try and show this to you by being better and work on improving"..... probably hits the mark better if you can say it and then follow up with some action as proof that you mean what you say better than... "sorry I forgot to pay the bills on time"....for the 50th time in a row.
Not making promises that you can't keep is part of it. I know I have said these words to my wife but I have tried to follow up...especially right at first...with something that I know that I can do as small or insignificant as it may be. It may not be much....but it is something....and I didn't lie and I did do what I said.
One step at a time. It's a start.
J
I agree ^^^
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I think owning up to how the ADHD's actions negatively affect the partner and household (long range and immediately) is very important.
I remember when my H's therapist once asked him, "what do you think it's like being married to you?" This question was the first of its kind asked to my H in over 10 years of therapy with 4-5 different therapists.
No one had ever asked him that very obvious question. Hmmm...What's it like being married to an alcoholic who loses his temper extremely easy and begins raging? Hmmm..not a pleasant question to contemplate; not a pleasant question to answer. To be honest, I was shocked that my H even told me that he was asked this question. In the privacy of his T's office, he admitted that it must be difficult being married to him. Did he ever apologize to me about it? no. never.
I agree with J that "not making promises that you can't keep" is important....but what's MORE IMPORTANT is to be realistic with solutions. Either own up that (in the case of bill-paying) you can't have that responsibility or implement some sort of program (auto-pay) that eliminates the problem.
No one should expect a partner to live sanely in a situation where frequently repeated short-falls cause havoc in the household. Even if the spouse is a saint about not complaining much, it's going to come out in other ways...lack of respect, lack of romantic feelings.....something is going to pay the frustration price..
Awesome post J
Submitted by c ur self on
If most of us spouses who daily deal w/ an Add/adhd spouse could get this kind of awareness and honesty from them, it would lessen much of the frustration. If you have a heart at all how do you not respond in a positive way to this type awareness and honesty. And it has to work both ways.
C
HUGE Thank You to All
Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on
I jsut wanted to thank all of you for responding to my posts with great ideas. Many of you either sound so much like me or my DW!
Refusing to Apologize
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I realize this is off topic, but I really need some advice regarding apologies. I have a person (non ADHD) in my life that is cold, uncaring, and emotionally abusive. She makes up lies about me and has even threatened to destroy my family for no reason what so ever. I have tried to hold her accountable for her actions, but she refuses to apologize. She refuses to even acknowledge what she's done. It's as if she's pretending that it didn't happen and trying to make me think there is something wrong with me. The only apology that she will give me is some like this, "I'm sorry you have such harsh feelings towards me." Which is really placing the blame on me. She's trying to play the victim. It's so extremely hurtful for me because it's my mother. She would rather completely sacrifice a relationship with me than issue a sincere apology. What do you make of this?
Is this a friend or relative?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Who is this person and why are they in your life?
>>>
She makes up lies about me and has even threatened to destroy my family for no reason what so ever.
>>>
They may not have ADHD, but there may be something seriously unhealthy with this person. The person could have a personality disorder.
What kind of lies does she tell? And in what context would she threaten to destroy your family? Are there ever any witnesses?
Why don't you distance yourself from this person? If you can't, then at a minimum, do not be alone with her. Always have a "faithful" witness (someone who you can trust).
It's my mother
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
It's my mother. I started very gradually limiting my contact with her 25 years ago. about six months ago I finally cut off all contact.
It's kind of a long story but I'll try to explain. When my children were very young (one and three years old) I drove 750 miles to visit my parents (just me and my kids). I think my mother saw me as vulnerable because I had two small children and no husband with me. My mother and I had planned to go shopping while my father stayed behind with the three year old so he could take a nap. At that time he napped for two hours every day and acted horrible without a nap. At the last minute my father made other plans and couldn't babysit. So I told my mother that I couldn't go shopping because I needed to stay home so my son could take a nap. I was frustrated with my father that he had canceled on me at the last minute because we lived so far away and didn't visit often. However, I was very civil about the whole thing. No yelling or even getting angry. My mother tried to convince me to take my son shopping anyway and skip his nap. I politely refused. She was so upset that she wasn't going to get her way that she locked my kids in my car and hid the keys from me. Then she told me that I was crazy and that she had called an ambulance to take me away. She kept repeating over and over, "You're crazy." She said she was going to have my children taken away from me. I had no means of escape and I couldn't get to my children. I believed that I was about to have my freedom and my children taken away. At that point I started yelling and screaming and causing a scene, trying to draw attention to the situation. I hoped that the neighbors would help me. I stayed very close to my car where my kids were locked inside. Thankfully, my father showed up and put an end to her scheme. To me it felt like a vicious attack. I realize that this story is so utterly ridiculous that it is unbelievable, but I promise it's true! I demanded an apology from her for about six weeks before she finally issued a very non specific apology that really blamed me for the whole situation. I have never gone back to that house without my husband. I dread being around her. I talk to her as little as possible. I especially don't want her at my house. My house is my safe place and I don't want her here.
Your mother is mentally ill.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Even if part of the story isn't true (and I believe it is), then her simple act of locking your kids in the car and hiding the keys is enough evidence to indicate that she has something seriously wrong going on. (BTW....if anyone reading this ever faces a similar situation, call 911. The cops would either force her to give you the keys, or threaten to arrest her.
Yes, this was triggered simply because she wasn't getting her own way. It's interesting that she didn't demand that her husband stick to his agreement to babysit. Likely because she has long-learned that she has no power over him....like she thought that she had with you. You were likely the recipient of some sort of deeply-held frustration that she can't control her H. As you mentioned, when your dad came home, she knew the "jig was up," and she had to unlock the car door. (I hope you left shortly after that abusive episode.)
I don't blame you for keeping your distance from her. She's unstable and dangerous.
BTW...did you ever have a private conversation with your dad about this or any other of your mom's antics?
Does your mother drink?
Actually, I'm surprised and
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Actually, I'm surprised and lucky that my father shut down the situation. It's the one and only time that he's ever admitted that she "made a mistake". He usually supports her 100%. He has chosen to give up a relationship with me in order to be supportive of her.
He talked to me after the episode only to try to guilt me into forgiving her. I pushed down the pain as deep as I could and pretended that everything was ok for many years. But about six months ago I realized that she doesn't go out of her way for me, so why am I making myself miserable for her. I gave her one more opportunity to make amends for that episode as well as others. She stonewalled me so I cut off contact completely. Sadly, I'm much happier without her.
Thank you for your supportive feedback!
No, she only drinks occasionally.
She contacted me with this week with lies and accusations. I told her, "don't contact me again until you get help." This was my attempt at beating her at her own game and giving her a dose of her own medicine. I know that she absolutely won't get help and she's highly insulted that I said she needs help. I just want her to leave me alone.
Good for you....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Your dad probably "broke his mold" of wife support in that instance because it was too "out there" to justify in any way. There were children locked in a car. It was probably a felony what your mom was doing, and your dad likely realized that ....and was likely worried that police involvement would not go well for your mom.
Good for you that you used the "you need help" argument. You're right that she won't seek help, but you're right that you beat her at her own game. Your mother is mentally ill, I would bet $100 on that. Your dad, like many men, may either be in denial (for his own preservation) or suspect that something is wrong but feels like living with her is his fate. She likely has tried to justify her behaviors to him, and there is no justification. Your dad knows that those are your kids and you have to decide how they're raised.
Do you think that your dad put her up to contacting you this week because he desires to see you and your children? If so, then she'll likely lie to him about the response.
Are you an only child? If not, how is she with other siblings?
I have a brother that is six
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I have a brother that is six years older and a brother that is six years younger. Because of our age difference we never attended the same schools, had different circles of friends, and were never involved in the same activities. My parents are emotionally void. It's hard for me to know if she treats them the same as she treats me. Until the huge attack, her abuse was delivered in very small doses privately. For example:
She repeated told me the story of the day I was born. "You're father didn't want to get out of bed and complained about how unexcited he was for the birth of his second child."
I had to get glasses in third grade and she told me, "Boys don't make passes at girls who wear glasses."
She told me repeatedly that my grandparents on both sides of the family didn't want to have a relationship with me. They loved my cousins more than me.
And on and on. I realize now how inappropriate these statements are. She was very slowly and quietly chipping away at my self esteem, but as a child I didn't realize what was happening. She just didn't realize that it was going to backfire on her one day.
I don't know how much my father knows about the situation. I'm pretty sure she lies to him and makes herself the victim. He's really never been supportive of me or had a relationship with me. He came to my aid that one time.
I should point out that when
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I should point out that when my mother made those kinds of comments to when I was growing up, she never did it in a mean or angry way. She delivered her blows with a sweet voice to make it seem like it was normal. It took me along time see the big picture.
OMG ~ your mother is seriously disturbed.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Please, if you can, see a therapist. Not because there is anything mentally-ill about you, but because you have long-suffered at the hands of an essentially evil person. I don't use that word lightly, but what you've described is evil, because it is rooted in hate, jealousy, and "bad will" (as opposed to being a person of "good will").
Do you have contact with your brothers? If so, see what stories they have. Since they are boys, your mom may not have directed her evil at them.
Of course she delivered those ugly words in a "sweet voice." That's how she was able to pretend that she was just giving you "matter of fact" info.
You are worth so much more than this, I hope you know. Please talk to a therapist about this. I'm not saying that you need months of therapy or anything like that, but a few visits will likely help you in several ways.
Thank you so much for your
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Thank you so much for your encouraging words. I've never told the story to anyone but my husband because I didn't think anyone would believe me. I thought that people would assume that I must have surely done something to deserve that treatment. But then, that is exactly the way whe wanted it to be, isn't it. She wanted to take away all of my credibility. She got away with it for a long time, but her gig is up!
You asked about my brothers. I really don't think that she treated them the same way. I do not have any bad feelings against my brothers, but we don't have a very close relationship because we grew up so separately in a home empty of love and caring. None of them (my father and brothers) have reached out to me since I cut off contact with my mother. I feel certain that she's turned them all against me. It doesn't seem worth it to me to contact them and try to convince them that I've been abused. Given the situation, I would rather just move forward and try to have a positive future. When I was growing up if I ever expressed hurt feelings for the things that my parents said to me, they would laugh at me and insinuate that I was acting ridiculous or that something was wrong with me. At this point my parents aren't laughing, but I'm certain that they are saying to each other that there is something wrong with me. They have done nothing wrong in their eyes.
Your brothers ....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Your brothers likely didn't understand or believe you because they weren't exposed to that side of your mom. Men have a tendency to only see how they're treated....unless the bad behavior happens right under their nose. With the age differences within your family, your brothers probably didn't witness many of your mom's antics.
And, likely, your mom was savvy enough not to behave that way with witnesses around.
Moms can be weird about sons anyway. My mom used to drive me crazy with her "preferential treatment" to my brothers. She'd deny doing it, but it was so obvious. It wasn't anything horrible, but (for example), if she and I had plans, if a brother called and asked a favor, she'd drop her plans with me to help my brother....even if the requested favor wasn't important or time-sensitive.
When my mother suffered a brain injury, that part of her brain was changed. Seriously. After she had a serious fall and suffered a brain injury, she never gave my brothers preferential treatment again. She treated all of us equally. And she was surprised when my brothers had "expectations" that were the result of a life-time of preferential treatment. I asked the neurologist about this odd change and she said that this often happens after a brain injury or even a stroke.
Right Hand Not Knowing What the Left Hand Is Doing
Submitted by kellyj on
I just wanted to add here....this works for fathers and mothers with the opposite sex children. What you mentioned was absolutely true in our family. I didn't know half the things that happened to my sisters from my mother's side....and they had no idea what my father did to me. Both my sisters and I thought that the others were being treated differently and more fairly than we were treated ourselves. Like you said....some of it was inocuous and harmless but it was still a different treatment simply based on whether you were a boy or a girl.
At 17....I was allowed to drive 300 miles, go scuba diving in the ocean and spend the weekend camping with my friends( drinking beer was done covertly lol). My sisters were not allowed to drive down the street to a friends house after dark since....something might happen? They saw that...but they saw nothing bad ever on my end. Everyone was afraid to say anything in fear of retaliation from the opposite parent. This is not an uncommon theme in dysfunctional families.
Not until 40 years later when I finally got up the courage to say something did my sister hear about any of this. My sisters had no idea that I was being abused by my father and were shocked. My one sister is still in denial of it and can't even talk about it with me. I in turn...had no idea what happened between my mother and my sisters and saw nothing like it from my mother who viewed me in a more or less.... idealistic sense ADHD and all staring her in the face. This was not of my doing and was quite frankly embarrassing. My friends would kid me about this and all I could say was ..."whatever?" It was unwelcome to say the least.
J
I agree....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Often other children are unaware of what's going on. And, if it's not happening to them, they have a hard time believing.
Sometimes abusers are very careful to make sure that there aren't witnesses.
I have a friend who was abused by her stepdad, and her mom didn't believe her because he denied it.
I contacted my brothers day
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I contacted my brothers day before yesterday. I very briefly explained the situation and asked if they had had similar experiences. Only one replied. He said "no". He never been treated badly.
Just to make the story more interesting, I'll add another detail. My mother was not raised by her mother. She was raised by her grandmother. She did live with her mother briefly at various times, but was always sent back to live with her grandmother. However, my mother's brother was raised 100% by their mother.
My mother has been miserable for as long as I can remember over how her parents didn't raise her. Do you think that this contributed to her singling me out?
Yes
Submitted by kellyj on
Same sex can relate to themselves better than the other way around if these things get transferred this way I think. The resentment isn't resolved so covertly....they are jealous or envious of what they didn't have so therefore...are not likely to give it in return. jAt least that's my guess? I say this because this was my gut feeling with my father from the things he would say. " I didn't have X when I was young, you should be thankful and consider yourself lucky." Lucky? How do you figure that one when you are a kid and see the same thing that most kids you know have and is not any different. No time machine to go back and see what that was like?
J
Yes, I think it probably
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Yes, I think it probably contributed to her singling you out. Perhaps consciously or subconsciously, she didn't want you to have what she didn't get: good parenting.
No Regrets
Submitted by jenna-ADD on
I haven't spoken to my mother in two years. Everything I do is wrong, and she does not respect anyone else's boundaries. She has no remorse when she tramples over them. She simply must have her way, because the other party is always wrong.
My coworkers often try to tell me they'd give anything to speak to their deceased mothers again, find forgiveness, be the bigger person... yada yada yada. Well their mothers didn't tell them they wished they had an abortion, you're a piece of sh.t, beat the snot out of you, and burn you with matches.
So I have no regrets. And neither should you. Some people in our lives are toxic, and there's nothing we can do to fix them. So for the sake of my own sanity, it sucks to be the odd one out, to spend the holidays alone with no family (bc my siblings tend to take after my mom). But it is self-preservation. And it must be done.
I'm so sorry for your
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I'm so sorry for your situation, but it feels good to know that I'm not alone.
My family also spends holidays alone. I have never told my kids the story about what she did to them and me when they were young. It's a very difficult situation because I know it's not normal from them to have such little contact with their grandparents, but I don't know what to tell them. My kids a now teenagers and I just don't know how to handle it. Do you have any advice?
I'm so sorry I said that! That was extremely insensitive of me. I'm absolutely not glad to know that I'm not alone. I wish that no one had to go through what you went through!! Please forgive me for my lapse in judgement.
No Apologies Needed
Submitted by jenna-ADD on
We're all human beings doing the best we can, trying to figure things out in our own way.
You mentioned your kids are now teenagers. They're old enough I think to get the gist of "grandmother isn't a very nice/stable person, so I thought it best to keep a distance" is reasonable... but only you can decide if you think your kids have the emotional capacity/maturity to handle details.
I don't have kids, but in dealing with the high school interns at work, some have more maturity than the adults I work with, and some I wouldn't trust to oversee a hamster.
If you were to disclose the truth, would you be afraid of anything? Of them not believing you? Of them wanting to go see her even more, to see if what they've heard is true?
This Is Horrible...
Submitted by kellyj on
Well their mothers didn't tell them they wished they had an abortion, you're a piece of sh.t, beat the snot out of you, and burn you with matches :(
I am so sorry this happened to you....and I can relate to things that happened to me in this way. It's not getting burned by matches that hurts and does the damage. How many times in your life have you burned yourself or cut yourself accidentally. You probably can't even remember a fraction of the times you experienced something as bad and it doesn't even register as anything unusual or out of the norm. These moments stay with you because they do not make any sense? They are so bizarre and unusual that they stand out and remain a mystery until you figure out why they happened.
In the moment.....how you felt or were made to feel was not even a consideration. That's what hurts but you can't make any sense of this at the time. All you can do is rationalize it to mean something else when you are little because of your inability to see outside of your self and how others might feel under the same circumstances. Normally....people eventually gain the ability to do this naturally as everyone does when you grow up and get older. This is what you would expect from an adult and turn to your parents for guidance since you do not have this capability when you are that age. If you never learn how to do this and stay this way....you end up being just like you mother in her own inability to see why this is so egregious?
I can think of other examples that people have related with me in the same way.
An ex girlfriend told me once that her mother told her that she regretted having her since...."she had a great figure before she had kids....and it was her fault that she was overweight and unattractive to men now that she was divorced and was alone." How about that for a rationalization? Let's see here...it's your daughters fault that you decided to have kids, which in turn....ruined your figure, caused your husband to cheat on you and leave you for another woman, which left you alone, unattractive and overweight which left you coming home every night, polishing off a bottle or two of wine while sitting in a dark depressing room, eating junk food non stop and staring at the walls and complaining to your daughter that it's all your fault.
How about....your husband left you for another woman because all you do every night is come home...polish off a bottle or two of wine, while sitting in a dark depressing room and eating junk food non stop while at the same time complaining to him that it's his fault that I'm here doing this every night. That's more like it.
The most bizarre one I have ever heard of came from the story of my brother in law. When my wife and brother were very little (like 4-7 years old respectively) They were dropped off to stay with their grandmother (fathers mother) for the weekend. As little boys do when they first discover their penis around 4 ? (too long ago now for me?) They tend to like to flaunt it and run around naked until you tell them to stop and explain to them that this is not acceptable behavior so they can learn from this lesson. I do believe this is fairly common behavior in little boys as these things go? In this one instance...4 or 5 year old little brother, was flaunting his new found play thing and taunting his older sister with it....and 7 year old older sister told him to stop or else she will tell on him. Nothing new under the sun there? What does the adult come up with as a solution to this problem as she see's it? In her infinite wisdom....Grandmother makes him strip and paints his penis green with paint and paint brush... and then makes him sit in the middle of the living room knowing that she had company coming over....and makes him sit there naked with a green penis while everyone arrives and sits down to see him completely exposed and humiliated. WTF?????!!!!!!!! What kind of lesson could this possibly teach a 4 years old at that level of learning and understanding?
Further....what possible other outcomes might there be as an alternative to any lesson that might be taught from this experience if this were you? Mmmmm....let's see here.....????? WTF?????? This is not only bizarre, strange and unusual punishment...it defies all reason and logical rational thinking to the point as I heard this story I said " in my wildest dreams or in my most vivid imagination....could I ever come up with that as a possible means to torture a small child if that was my goal and I was trying to creatively come up with something so bizarre and unusual to win an award for "best new innovative torture for small children". Who in their right mind could even come up with such a thing? What does green signify? For that matter....what does painting a child's penis green have to do with anything? This woman needed to be arrested and locked up and kept away from all other living creatures IMHO?????
I remember taking a magnifying glass and burning ants in my backyard when I was really little and thinking that was fun and interesting.....I think of this now and think that would be a really cruel and sick thing for me to do now.....but this is not that unusual for little kids (as I have observed) when you discover this ability at first and decide to try it and see what happens. Once you get to a certain age however, you start to think about what you are doing and that stops too. I still feel bad about myself for doing this to this day...not about killing insects necessarily....but I enjoyed doing it in this way and took some pleasure it. But I also stopped for the same reason on my own.
And the one excuse that no one can ever use in their own rationalizing in these moments (myself included here)...is that you were a child once and you know how you were back then and know what this experience is like. Everyone has this experience.....and everyone knows what this is like including how you felt yourself when something like this happens to you. That's what a parent knows and has the capacity for that a child simply does not. It ain't that hard to figure out? It also why a parent has to adapt to their child since they will always have this experience ahead of their children and this will never change. It's physically and scientifically impossible to be anything else otherwise.
In my mind....that's all you need to have empathy and compassion? What else do you need?
J
I Second This Opinion...
Submitted by kellyj on
Your mother and father have a real problem....throwing my two bits in here. I recognize a couple of very consistent (and familiar) behaviors here in my own experience with people like this.
To start....you can use one word to describe your mother's behavior...."manipulative". Simplifying this even further.....everything she did was in a means to control a situation that was not going her way. Normal (or mentally stable or healthy) people don't act this way. Without knowing anything about your family or mother and father...and barring that this was some anomaly and nothing like this has ever happened before....this is what I see in this one story.
My suspicion? This has been going on like this for years (probably all of your lifetime with your parents) and it took this instance that was so out of scale that no one could not see it including you in this case. The signs of it have always been there but you were too deep inside of it to see it since it's what you grew up with. It's much easier to see it when it's not happening to you directly to you and it involves another person. In this case it was your children that brought this to light so clearly.
In my mind...based on what I might see in a normal situation like this (what I might expect from anyone with only slight variations?)....would be something as follows:
You tell your parents you are coming to visit and bringing your kids along with you. One might expect under normal conditions....
That your parents prepare in some way to have guests come to stay with them. At the very minimum....one might expect that they not make other plans at the same time or change their plans to make accommodations for you and your children since this only happens once in a very great while. If there was a conflict or something that could not be changed like a previous commitment or obligation....it would be stated up front and arrangements or accommodations could be made and planned ahead of time to make this fit into some kind of plan that would try and accommodate both parties involved as best you can in an attempt to minimize any impact that this would have on you and everyone else involved.
No accommodations were made for you what so ever in the scenario you just mentioned. Even in your own best efforts to do this with someone and consider them FIRST and the best laid plans still go awry.....the other person can see this too and the thought that went behind it. This is completely missing here? What does that tell you? Right off the bat.....this is not normal behavior that one might expect. "I was frustrated with my father that he had canceled on me at the last minute because we lived so far away and didn't visit often. However, I was very civil about the whole thing. No yelling or even getting angry." On your behalf here and in my own cynical, sarcastic response towards your father as he might see what you just said .." Good girl....that is what you are supposed to do. (pat on the head..pat, pat). And again....under normal conditions.....I wouldn't be just frustrated.....I would be extremely hurt and feel very disrespected, unimportant and like I was way down the list of what you father felt was most important to him ie: what ever it was that just came up that he had to go do? What was it that was so much more important anyway? And not to make you feel bad or hurt here to be sure.....this has nothing to do with you and everything to do with your father here.
Next......Under normal conditions if there is nothing your mother can do about your father and his seemingly...poor judgment and rather self serving attitude and unwillingness to compromise himself even for a brief time on a special occasion which is just plain bad manners in general..... one would expect a possible apology from her on his behalf (as the host of the house).....and not to just house guests here either but family which makes it even worse. I'll come back to this last sentence.
"My mother tried to convince me to take my son shopping anyway and skip his nap. I politely refused. She was so upset that she wasn't going to get her way that she locked my kids in my car and hid the keys from me. " Oops....No "good girl" here. You did not go along with the program that was expected of you? This is unacceptable. Something must be done to force you into changing your mind which she tried to convince you of already (more manipulation). "What's more important here....going shopping with me.....or this stupid kid you dragged along who needs to have his nap?" You aren't doing what you are told but you aren't a child anymore and she has no control over you in that way. You also just told her what is more important in no uncertain terms. "That's just crazy! How can I not be more important than this stupid kid? That's why you came her isn't it....to see me? I know....I'll lock these kids damn kids in the car that are the source of this problem for me so I will get what I want and she will be forced to pay attention to me instead."
Who's fucking crazy here? And who's the child and who's the adult in this scenario. When you have an adult who thinks like a child....from their perspective, the world revolves around them. As do your children in how they see things in this very situation. Why? A normal person does not need this explained to them. I don't have children....and this is clearly obvious even to me?
Once you are an adult and have children yourself.....you automatically become a parent. From that day on until the day you die....this will never change. You had your turn at being a child....now it's your children's turn. Parents need to adapt and accommodate their children just like you were doing with your son...not the other way around? This should never change under normal conditions unless a parent is compromised in such a way due to health or mental illness where they no longer can do this for themselves. Even then.....the role of a child in this case should only be to accommodate the ill or sick person (in general) until they can get back on their feet again or until they die if the sickness is so chronic or terminal that they will never return to being a fully functioning person again.
But even in that case.....the roles did not get reversed and the parent is still the parent and the child is only doing what is required and expected of anyone (under normal conditions) if you are healthy and another person is so sick that they can't do for themselves.
You are the child here and will always be that. Normal people see this and accommodate and adapt to their children as they grow up and mature. They change with their children and do not expect their children to change for them. This is not normal. This is not healthy.
This also didn't just happen. An adult who thinks and behaves like a child....did not go from thinking like an adult and then revert back to thinking like a child.....they've been this way all along and just acted like an adult until you are old enough to realize this when you become and adult yourself and they appear to be completely irrational and crazy to you.
And instead.....they see this happening and changing and from where they sit....."it's just crazy! What's wrong with my child? It's all about me and now they aren't going with the program anymore as (I)....taught them to be." Oops Projection....it tells you exactly what they are thinking. You just need to learn how to interpret it. The hardest part is just learning how to recognize it and decipher it like learning a new language.
Like Pig Latin......oWhay'say ethay oneyay owhay isyay uckingfay azycray erehay? You just have to turn "you" into "I" and everything will make better sense. All you have to do is remember how you were as a child an apply it to your parents...."the world revolves around me. I'm the center of the universe."... and it will make better sense. It's hard to see your parents this way but this is exactly what I see because I had to do the same thing myself and it looks remarkably similar once you do. It's not about you and you shouldn't let them tell you that it is. That's what an unhealthy person does who thinks like a child.....blame it all on someone else and say it's all their fault. How many times have you heard this from your kids and see them do this with each other?
I rest my case:) Further....you will never get an apology from someone who thinks like this. It's not in just this one moment but across the board until they can see what is wrong with their own behavior....and if they never change out of this way of thinking.....they will never see it and you won't get that apology ever. Makes sense doesn't it?
J
You are very insightful once
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
You are very insightful once again. You asked why my father canceled at the last minute. He made plans to go to the country with my brother and do something with the horses. My brother lives in the same small town as my parents. My father and brother (and my brothers children) spend time together "messing around" with the horses on a weekly basis, if not daily. It just didn't make sense to me why that was so important at that moment while we were visiting.
This reminds me of my father
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
This reminds me of my father-in-law (who does not, as far as I know, have ADHD). He has never been a nice person but didn't directly express hostility to me until six years ago this Thanksgiving. The way he behaved that day was rude although not nearly as awful as what your mom did. I was very upset, and I wrote him a note after we got home, explaining that I had felt hurt by what he said. He did not apologize; instead, he told my husband an analogy, something about when he worked on the farm when he was younger, he would kick the dog. I took this to mean that I was the dog. Then, when I complained about this, he denied to my husband that he had ever said the thing about kicking the dog. It was strange and hurtful and I decided to stop visiting.
My husband has been caregiver for his parents for the past four years. His father's behavior is getting worse and now is directed at my husband. I feel bad for my husband, but I'm not able to extricate him from the situation and he refuses to leave or to get more help. Occasionally, I feel a little guilty about not spending time with my in-laws, but most of the time, I know that I've done the right thing, by removing myself as a target.
It hurts so much to be
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
It hurts so much to be treated badly by anyone. But it is especially painful when it comes from the people that are supposed to love and care for us.
I am nicer to people that I
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I am nicer to people that I know only casually than my husband and father-in-law are to their relatives. And they wonder why they don't have more friends and why the rest of the family doesn't visit them.
OK, A Sincere apology, now what. . . I'm too human
Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on
OK, I'll put this out there to anyone. I'm the ADD H who fits the "million sorry's but keeps making teh same insane mistake" description. My DW is long beyond her wits to the point she's seriously talking of separation. It seems that I have a great wek after a sincere apology, but then BAM, back to the same old same old. Or seem bad decisions I mae before the apology surface at once when things are going well and it's back to square -1. . . . or I just make a mistake and since I've surpassed her last nerve, she's understandible torqued and back to square -10. . . . I've tried a new approach not to run away from her anger and try to confront it since I used to be very defensive but it feels like too little too late. She's even told me that if I were to have a miracle breakthrough and have a great stretch that if I did mess up again, she doesn't know if she could tolerate it. so MY translation of this is that even if I were to improve, I would have to be PERFECT and NEVER screw up. . . .due to all of this, my DW has a mountain sized resentment towards me an my actions and says she needs to be medicated just to be around me so it would be better if I was not in the picture.
I do want to give full disclosure here - I'm in my 40's. married to my DW for 17 years, know her for at least 20, have had a roller coaster of a relationship, I've gone through at least 6 therapists / coaches, gone to 2 marriage counselors, have been aware of my ADD for about 10 years, and kind of intellectually known what to do for a number of years but putting int practice is another thing or I would not be in this situation now.
OK, so what do I do? I don't want a divorce, but this is tough as nails to do. . . . . Non-ADD spouses who may be hating that they're reading about THEIR ADDer, short of divorce, what has worked in your relationship? What successful strategies do you have for your ADDer that has worked? Specifically for the ADDer who keeps messing up?
Thank you for any shred of help.
This Is Now in the Present Time
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi ADHD_Highway_to,
Think of it this way. No amount of I'm sorry's will fix your situation. But knowing that you are really sorry for the problems you have caused is a good starting place....as of today. You are apologizing for the past in every respect. You wife is just holding her breath until it happens again? She may say right now that she can no longer tolerate this and she is probably extremely sensitized to anything of this nature. One instance of these things is not going to make a person this way. She didn't start out this way.....it happened over time. Now....everything like this is just hitting on an open wound that never heals. Think about how irritating that would be if this were you? This is what you need to apologize for in it's entirety.
So what if you do it again? What do you expect from her each time it happens? How will this change or what can you do to ease this for her make it go away?
She's even told me that if I were to have a miracle breakthrough and have a great stretch that if I did mess up again, she doesn't know if she could tolerate it. so MY translation of this is that even if I were to improve, I would have to be PERFECT and NEVER screw up. . . .due to all of this, my DW has a mountain sized resentment towards me an my actions and says she needs to be medicated just to be around me so it would be better if I was not in the picture.
This is how she feels right now. How do you think she might feel if you cut everything you do in half? Would you expect her to change over night not be over sensitive to these things? Probably not? But in time....once she didn't experience the (irritant) that is causing her to react this way. She might feel differently based on the level of irritation? From this rather clinical description.....you aren't the irritant. What you do is?
Bottom lining you here.....If you can't expect from your wife anything different that you would expect from yourself under the same conditions. Not reacting, not being defensive and expecting to a certain degree that you wife will continue to react the way she does for a certain amount of time no matter you do right now. That's what she is saying based on how she feels right at this moment. She's not saying you have to be perfect forever (or even now). She telling you that she has reached her limit and this is all that she can take and even if you were perfect for 99% of the time.....that 1% is still going to put her over the edge and there is nothing you can do about that. It's a done deal.....you can't make that go away no matter what you do right now in this very moment. This is the net result of everything that you have done thus far and there is no undoing that. Telling her you are sorry for this specifically ....can't hurt if you think about it can it? No skin off you nose to do it either but don't expect anything from it other than the acknowledgement of this on your end and affirming that you understand your part in this for her.
If anything....it might give her hope? If you were to change your behavior and make changes to the things that specifically hit her triggers the most after you do this.....wouldn't it give a person a little more hope after that? You dug this hole one scoop at a time....you need to fill it back in the same way....over time.
So...to reiterate to make this very clear.
1. Do the things or address the things that affect her the most first. Not what easiest for you....what trips her triggers the most. Do not expect anything from her.
2. Each time she react to the things you miss or haven't addressed yet. Do not react and get defensive. You aren't expecting anything different from her remember?
3. Work through your own emotional upheavals during this process and do not react or be defensive or change course on continuing to focus on the things you are trying to address. It's better to get one thing down and completely stop one thing entirely.....than doing a piss poor job at trying to do them all not very well. This will look like nothing has changed or has happened to her and won't help ease her anxiety. You are trying to ease her anxiety right now....but you are also learning new habit and improving your self at the same time. Expect nothing from her and don't let her reactions towards you make you stop or change from keeping on doing this. At least you are getting some benefit from this and you can you that for your own motivation along with knowing that this can't hurt or make anything worse?
4. Repeat all the above over and over. To learn anything new and assimilate into permanent memory....repetition is a universal requirement. That includes saying you are sorry in this way and keep repeating that as necessary.
5. Don't keep showing her how well you have done. She will decide for herself how she feels about it and when you've done a good job or not. Expect nothing from her in this way. She will tell you when she is ready if that day ever happens.
6. Nothing she does or says should make any difference on how well you perform and what you do. Good or bad. Expect nothing and you won't be disappointed. This is how she feels right now. Keep that in mind and use that to help keep you on track.
7. The burden of proof is all on you. And the only proof she is looking for is easing her anxiety level and reducing that feeling in her.
I think if you approach it this way for a while and do this as best you can and you know that you are doing the things you should be doing and improving (reducing the frequency of them not being perfect). In time....she will feel better than she does right now if you focus on her anxiety level and do everything you can to make her more comfortable and feel better. That should be your goal. If anything....you might expect that her anger and the frequency of the things she does to annoy you or send you into orbit will decrease along with it....but the burden of proof in this is all on you.
If you do this and she still doesn't respond to you after a good long while and you reach your breaking point....then maybe the two of you should not be together anymore? But you won't know this until you do it first. Expect nothing and do it anyway. That's the leap of faith that you have to take. The burden of proof is on you and you alone whether you get anything out of it or not.
In reality.....things will improve faster than you think the faster you do this and improve if this works but there are no guarantees that it will. It will go back to being a 1 to 1 relationship after a certain amount of time but not at first. At first.....expect nothing in return and keep doing it anyway. Notice how I repeated this over and over? You need to do this with yourself everyday and keep repeating it in the same way.
Having a therapist for the two of you together during this process to reaffirm and encourage both of you will make this much easier and facilitate the moments where you lose your ability to keep being objective like this. (which you will...expect it and count on it) I would highly recommend it based on my own personal experience. I am still within this process myself....but everything I just said has already happened with me just so you know. I hope this helps.
J
Thank You
Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on
J - Thank you for the suggestions. How long did it take for you until things got better? I know each person is different, but it can at least give me an idea.
"expect nothing in return and keep doing it anyway" - I guess this is really a leap of faith. What I have real trouble with is doing hte right thing and getting sarcasm back. I realize she is really resentful, but it is tough on my end. though.
"You dug this hole one scoop at a time....you need to fill it back in the same way....over time" I get it, eat the elephant one bite at a time. However, this sometimes makes me despondent since it took me over 20 years to get here and I'm 43 . . . you see where I'm going with this, right? I get it that it's the long haul, but the "now, not now" part of my ADD sometimes blinds me to this.
"Each time she react to the things you miss or haven't addressed yet. Do not react and get defensive. You aren't expecting anything different from her remember?" Well, what is a good way to handle this other than sucking it up and taking it? One of the things I really hated about my parents' relationship (dad was alcoholic & mom codependent non-alcoholic) was the way my mom pretty much emasculated my dad whenever he messed up. Even though I really did not like the way he acted when he was drunk and there were probably a myriad of things I never knew about, I really felt for my dad when he pretty much had to beg my mom for money to take the train into work (he blew it on beer). Again, I know my mom had good reason to do this and he had to take responsibility for his actions, but I still could not help but feel for him when this happened. He was my dad, the only (greatly flawed) male figure I had to emulate, after all. Obviously I know I've taken to internalize this whenever similar things happen to me in front of my kids, but I don't want my sons to see the same things I saw. Again, I know the obvious solution is not to make the same mistakes, but I hate this part. There was a poingnant article in the most recent issue of Additude Magazine that really summed up my feelings as both a son and father from both points of view. . .. .
"Work through your own emotional upheavals during this process and do not react or be defensive or change course on continuing to focus on the things you are trying to address. It's better to get one thing down and completely stop one thing entirely.....than doing a piss poor job at trying to do them all not very well. This will look like nothing has changed or has happened to her and won't help ease her anxiety. " I've done the latter, trying to keep all of teh plates spinning at once, and watching them all tumble. My problem is that I thik she wants all of my defects worked on now, so that's what I do, since even if I'm working on 1 of teh defects, another one surfaces and upsets the whole apple cart.
Thank you again for your reply.
How Long?
Submitted by kellyj on
From the point where my wife and I started escalating and things really started to get bad to when this really turned the corner was about 2 years of hell. Straight without a break. And for most of that time I was struggling and working very hard to find a way to fix the problem. I chased after each thing she wanted and never seems to get any closer to finding an answer. (part of my response to you already about prioritizing). We almost split up twice and by the third time we hit this intersection in the road....I have already done a lot to improve and had some credibility built up by following through with things I said......not lying about anything or making excuses....not losing my temper or having any anger episodes and doing a lot ot things that she wanted already.
When she would back down or lighten up and was continuing to ride me constantly......I made an about face and told her that I was killing myself in trying and I wasn't going to live like this anymore. I told her to look at what I had done and how far I had come (just then....I didn't keep pointing out every time I did something to her) and told her she was free to leave but I couldn't make this happen any faster than that and it was the best I could do.
I think because I had some success behind me....this carried a lot more weight without it which caused her to pause and think about things for a moment. When she realized that what I was saying was true....she began to listen to me. Since then....the pressure was off and she was a lot more tolerant and forgiving when she actually saw the improvements that she was not seeing. She was still too focused on the times I failed and not noticing the times that I didn't because it was a gradual change over time that you don't notice as easily until you stop and look back.
So the answer.....about two years but I forced the issue and it worked out in our case but I'm not recommending this to you. I have noticed a big improvement in myself in many ways over this two year time and it does seem to be happening faster and in bigger steps upward as time goes on.
But our relationship and how we've been together since that day when I put my foot down has dramatically changed and has not returned to the way it was....for the better. My wife and I in some regards are perfect together and in only a few ( but really important ) ways we are not. These things can easily overshadow all the good parts when you loose sight of the forest from the trees.
God speed to you in getting there with your wife. If I didn't say this before.....somewhere down the line (maybe not right now or at first)...she needs to be part of this process with you but first....you need to have a process to begin with and a little success under your belt if you follow?
Reminds me of one of my favorite Sienfeld episodes with George needing some "Hand".lol Good luck
J
What are you doing that is "messing up"?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I understand the problem that when you're trying to be good, but then something bad happens, the result of an earlier mistake (maybe a missed bill surfaces).
However, what is going on when you're trying to be good and you mess up? What are you messing up?
I don't like that you're expected to be perfect. That is crazy.
However, if you're having a good week, and then "slack off" on trying, then that's another issue.
What are the things that get on your wife's nerves?
Thank you, too
Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on
Thank you for your reply, too, especially from a wife of an adder, from what I can tell.
I understand the problem that when you're trying to be good, but then something bad happens, the result of an earlier mistake (maybe a missed bill surfaces). However, what is going on when you're trying to be good and you mess up? What are you messing up? - Here's an example - the most recent thing is that this past week was going great, we had just patched things up after a tumultuous time. At the beginning of the week, I had to schedule an oil change for my DW's car, which I scheduled for Friday. I then had a therapy appointment set up for Thursday, but my wife let me know that there were parent teacher conferences that she could not make since she had another function to go to with another one of our children, so I canceled it. Finally, on Thursday, I let my older son stay up WAY too late watching the Thursday football game since he's a Jet's fan. So what went wrong? On Friday she called me to tell me that my older son overslept and it created a bunch of stress to rush him out the door, and in the process he forgot something that my DW then had to bring to his school on a second trip. That oil change, well I forgot to tell her about it, so the car would have to wait another week, but it was overdue already and could not wait another week. That therapy appointment, did I forget to tell you I forgot to tell her I canceled it? Also, I never mentioned that my therapy appointment was the first one with a new coach; going to the coach was one of the conditions that I agreed to do if I wanted to stay in the relationship. So all 3 of these things came out at once and BAM, I was back on square 0. Do I blame anyone but myself - no. But this is just 1 of a long series of events just like it. Obviously looking back on the events, I can see what I should have done, but it is too late since the damage is done.
What are the things that get on your wife's nerves? Lack of communication, unclear communication, not always being there emotionally, having to pick up my messes (metaphorically), being late, not following through with tasks I say I will do, forgetfulness, running away from conflicts, defensiveness, not wanting a 4th child that she wanted until it was too late (and during the narrow windows of opportunities, messing up so much that she doesn't want anything to do with me, therefore no babymaking exercised), not doing anything she wants that may disagree with me without putting up a fight (getting married, having children, getting a dog, choosing where to live, etc), being tough to talk to without getting emotional, not working on my ADD issues consistently, not being romantic or showing interest in our relationship like I used to, being inconsistent in fulfilling my obligations around the house or at lest communicating when I'm not able to and need help, making excuses, did I mention my communication issues. . . . I'm sure as a wife of an ADDer, you might find all of these things unfamiliar . . . . (rather, I fully expect you to ask me if I was your husband on this blog since I know I sound like just about every other ADD spouse)
(J - this is what I have trouble with - see my list, what do I work on first???)
Anyway, I'm not trying to garner any sympathy, but I just wanted to put it all out there.
Thank you again for your response and any advice you can give.
The desire to maintain a vision
Submitted by jennalemone on
If there is a sport, a man can research stats and remember dates and obsess about kicks and goals and FEEL that he wants to know everything about that game/sport/player for DECADES! It is essentially the same game played over and over again. There is a RUSH inside that fuels the heart to WANT to be involved and work toward as much closeness and involvement with the game as possible. There seems to be a desire in men to MAINTAIN their interest in sports. It is a STRONG DESIRE TO BE INVOLVED for love of the sport.
The FEELING for watching sports on TV is what? Desire? Comfort? Excitement? Connection? Association with the players's vitality? With what expectation? Imagining one day meeting a "player"? Rubbing shoulders with people that other people talk about? Knowing a "stat" and looking like one of the "boys"? What is the fuel for a desire to maintaining interest and focus in sports?
Many of us non-ADD spouses have a continuing desire that we MAINTAIN for a strong, loving family. We WANT trust and affection as a natural part of our day. We don't lose interest in that desire. It stays in our imagination and we nurture that vision. It is not always exciting or fun but the active desire is maintained. If the desire is there, things aren't forgotten, missed, lost. Because there is a fuel of the vision of "happy life, happy marriage". You LOVE what you FOCUS on. OR you FOCUS on what you LOVE.
There seems to be a lack of desire in the spouses we complain about on this forum. Because when an ADDer WANTS to they CAN FOCUS and ARE CONNECTED to what they WANT. It is not until a spouse LEAVES that an ADDer suddenly feels he wants to be connected.
Love is in the imagination/vision. If a person with ADD wants to improve relations with a spouse. I believe that it must come from the DESIRE to MAINTAIN a VISION of happiness within a family.
If you spend your thoughts with visions of freedom, fun, playing, getting into a little bit of trouble and feeding your own ego, your focus will be on those things and then that is what you will get. You get what you WANT. You can have that without the spouse. We non ADDers cannot have a happy marriage without your involvement We obsess about you. You obsess about your sports/hobby/self care. We should leave but we keep the dream of happy family alive even when it has been dead for a long, long time with you.
I Hate to Say it....
Submitted by kellyj on
But you are right. I really do hate to say it because it's not what I want. Adding to what you said specifically for ADHD_Highway_ to consider and take a closer look at. If men tend to only see what's right in front of their face....then that's even worse for a man with ADHD. Guilty as charged. It's not what I want or how I want to be...and I certainly don't want my wife to feel neglected or less important than other things.
For all reason including the reasons behind why this is more difficult for a person with ADHD has to do with the prioritizing issue again. I do see all things the same many times and it's not because I'm objectifying my wife. As much as I don't care for the concept of...."things that are shiny" (since I'm not a fish and I know that?)...I have to concede that there is some truth to this. Things that are shiny may be what catch my attention (things that are of interest or that I like)....many times, they get lumped into the same basket with everything else since they all require some kind of attention or time spent focusing on them.
I wanted to add one more suggestion about the list of things to do. Even if you have one and spend the time to plan ahead of time....remembering to go to the list and keep checking in on it is another issue that goes along with this.
If it's in front of your face....you will see it. You need to have external cues and reminders of what you need to be doing at any given time since....we go to what's shiny first and this is not the criteria you need to be using. This does make sense if the list itself is posted where you can see it....eye level on a bathroom mirror or kitchen or anywhere you go in the house most often. Audible timers work great for me. All I need is a signal to remind it's time to check my list or stop doing what I need to do and then move on to the next thing.
But seriously....this is one of those things that you really can't live without. It's on the list in my mind of things that you just can't will yourself to remember for all reasons that are ADHD related and you should not keep trying thinking that this will change. Better to work with it instead of fighting against it.
And I think going along with what Jenna was saying....your wife should not be just one more thing on a "to do list". Maybe planning things to do with her might be a good way to see this....but it's too easy to forget that we tend to see all things we do as just another thing in one big pile of things to do.
This may not be intentional or what we want ...but this is probably what it feels like from the other side as the net result of this "prioritizing" dysfunction we suffer from.
This goes right back to what I said about taking a close hard look at just this one aspect and noticing how it extends outwardly to other things that effects you.... and then taking that a step further and seeing the effect it has on other people. This is not something you should overlook when creating a plan or a structure to avoid these problems. When I realized this I went OMG...this is way bigger (and more important) than I ever thought.
Here's an example without any plan or structure. With all good intentions...you think about what you need to do including spending time with your wife later in the day or evening. Since they are all the same...you start by doing whatever appears in front of you first (or is easiest). Nothing wrong so far and it makes sense to do all the easy things first so at the end of the day you will have fewer things to do than if you did that the other way around. Right away...you just made a big mistake. Easiestm most obvious, in front of your face or shiny should not be the way to prioritize. Most important whether it's easy or not (time consuming or not) should be the only criteria to use instead. It may seem like a logical way to approach this for someone without ADHD....but here's how the rest of that course of action will usually play out for me......
-I'll get those less important things off my list which leaves the bigger ones to deal with. Since I don't budget time well and forget about all the breaks or leave room for anything else to go wrong....I don't get to the most important things until the end of the day when I'm tired and already fading. Now, I'm likely to forget something or not do a very good job and probably be in a hurry because now I'm behind schedule.
- So the least important things got my best attention and I did them while I was fresh and not in a hurry based on my first impulse or decision to do things that way.
-And at the end of the day....the most important things aren't done, I'm stressed out from being tired from having to try and "catch up" and follow a schedule that was unrealistic to begin with.
-What ever I started and didn't finish is still left right where it was until tomorrow which I tell myself I will just pick up where I left off. This sometimes happens..but many times something else came up after my wife comes home and tells me now...I have something else to do first thing in the morning that cannot wait.. Now I'm stressed.
-And now after my wife is home and I'm tired and stressed.....I need to relax and recover. What happened about doing things with my wife and spending time with her which I do want to do? I don't really feel like this now and I'm not in the mood. All I really want to do is rest up for tomorrow since my list never got finished and I'm behind and it's going to be an even busier more stressful day than it was today..... and now my wife just added one more thing to my list that I hadn't thought about or maybe forgot until she reminded me.
The reason I forgot or didn't think about this was because I was too focused on doing what was right in front of me and made a quick on the spot decision to start doing my list of things off the top of my head without a plan. A plan that was done when I wasn't trying to think about anything else at the time (in the moment) and was able to take the time to think about everything I had to do for the next few days and can take the time to remember to put all the things on one list and arrange them accordingly.
-Now...my wife is upset because the most important things are still not done and there's a partially done thing staring at her that was not there when she left for work. Then she finds out that I'm changing our plans together in lew of the current status of events...and even more upset that the partially finished project is going to stay right where it is and is not going to get done until a few other things get done first including the one that she added to my list ( or was on my list but I just forgot to put it into my game plan when I made the decision to start something else and I could finish it in the morning)
-Now...the next day comes and I'm already behind the curve. My original plan fell apart and now I'm playing catch up. Playing catch up is like putting out fires. You have no choice but put out the biggest fire first and then move on to the next one. I have no control or plan at all and have no choice but let the fires dictate what I do first. If my wife becomes a fire....then she is dictating what I do and becomes a bigger fire than the other ones I had.
-Now she's dictating what I do. Everything I started to do or was in the middle of doing now gets put down right where they are and I'm following or chasing after the fires. Now I have two or three partially done things to do on my list and I have completely lost all my momentum and my place in where I was. When I come back to those things....it will be like starting over from scratch until I get rolling again which wastes even more time.
-Now....I'm even more behind than the day before and I'm more stressed out and start to get overwhelmed. I need a break and go do something to relieve stress so I can function and think straight. I know....I'll go do something enjoyable for a minute since....none of this was enjoyable at all and I didn't get a chance for any down time yet like I thought I would have and there doesn't seem to be any room for that in the next couple of days. A minute turns into an hour but at least I'm refreshed and can go back to work. Uh oh....I only have an hour left to do what I thought would take 2 hours and my wife is coming home and I told her I would have these partially done projects done before she came home.
-Now....I have four unfinished projects....there's a big mess because they aren't finished yet and I have one in each room including the kitchen and my wife called and said she would be home early with food from the grocery store. AHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Run to the kitchen and scramble desperately to finish that one so she;s not angry with me for lying to her because I promised I would have at least that one done before she came home with groceries and I still have to cook dinner and there's a mess on the counters.
I could go on and on. This simulation is not that far from the truth sometimes. I intentionally painted the worse case scenario but....the worse case is still real and still happens even if it's only occasionally. The best case on a daily basis....might be anything from getting everything done to.....to everything in between with no consistency what so ever.
Why? Because I didn't prioritize well, I didn't have a plan made out ahead of time....and I made one wrong decision to begin with that set this chain reaction into motion. Once that first decision was made.....everything else after that just becomes a snow ball rolling down his and getting bigger and gaining more speed the further it goes.
This is why we end up here and why this happens and it goes all the way back to our inability to prioritize well yet we never remember to think about this each time it happens.
Actually....that last statement isn't true. For me at this stage....I need to remind myself of this so I don't do it since I am totally aware of it. If I forget to remind myself before I start....I will do what I always do. If I make the plan and don't have external cues to remind me to look at it and check back in or edit it....I won't remember to do that if I busy focusing on what I'm doing and lose track of time.
But if you aren't aware of how important this is or are undiagnosed or in denial.....you'll never understand why this is so important and it will just keep happening. If there is any doubt of why this happens.....this is why.
Structure,prioritize/plan, external cues and reminders, action, follow through with plan. I really cannot see any other way
J
Organizing, cleanup and prioritizing
Submitted by jennalemone on
I at one time worked in high stress marketing job. I had to use Franklin Planners and schedule time to the 5 minutes. The phones were ALWAYS ringing and there were 20 messages on the answering machine at any given time. I did not have a problem with organizing but I was not great at organizing this MUCH! But I MADE myself work and sweat and endure the stress. Why? Because I wanted to be proud of myself, our family, home and life. What kept me going was knowing that I was working for my family who I loved.
H never got MOTIVATED to make a list for himself. Or a budget or a schedule. He just did whatever, whenever. I would tell H that he needed to "step up" his efforts after 4 years of my working stressfully. He would act ANGRY AT ME for saying he wasn't doing enough....like I was a nag. I was also doing all the home stuff. Clothing, food, cleaning, kids stuff.
Anyway, my point is, I didn't want to spend my time planning and scheduling with due dates and stressful meetings but that is what I had to do to support us. For my pride and our ability to live with confidence that we had ENOUGH. To work rather than be afraid and ashamed of poverty.
YES, it is not fun or easy to plan and prioritize. But you HAVE to do it. If H would have loved me and the family more than his ease and liesure, we would all now be proud and appreciative of him instead of him looking and feeling like a loser. He did not want to stress himself out in the short run. But you are what you DO. In the long run he has to live with what he DID NOT DO. He did not feel like making lists or budgets or schedules. He CHOSE to take care of and enjoy him SELF in the moment. He chose that by not making it HIS responsibility to make the lists and schedules if he could not remember.
Yep..And Without External Cues...
Submitted by kellyj on
You become the external cue in whatever form that takes. Objectively speaking...I hate that timer buzzer sometimes (the actual real timer not my wife). But this is not good. Not good at all. You may tell yourself you know the difference....but your anxiety and stress does not.
J
I Have the Same List...
Submitted by kellyj on
Different person...different wife....different circumstances....same list. I think I understand what you ae asking me for and that in itself is part of the problem. Let me see if I can narrow this down for you. Let's start with some statements that I have come to learn are true. These aren't my statements...but I have come to understand them better. They may not be direct quotes so bear with me.
Some of the outstanding features of people with ADHD are: difficulty getting started, difficulty getting and staying organized, and difficulty prioritizing. The key word here for where I'm going with this is prioritizing. I never realized how bad I am at doing this but without going into all the reasons I have discovered why this is.....it extends a lot further into my behavior than just figuring out which things to do first. In fact....I might even say that I am completely dysfunctional at prioritizing sometimes. As if that ability is completely missing. For all intensive purposes....I now assume that this is true and proceed accordingly as if it is even when I know that I can prioritize just fine in some ways....but this has to do more with "in the moment" when I'm trying to make a decision. Once that decision is made based on that moment.....I've discovered that it would have been different if I had waited a while and gave it some time to settle in. If you completely miss this and just go with that moment and never look back. I've found myself exactly where I didn't want to be but at that point....it's too late now.
This I believe....is directly tied to my inability to prioritize....which affects your ability to organize.....which affects your ability to get started.....in that order. To be clear....I think you need to discount all the abilities you do have for a moment....and focus on this one disability and stay there for a while. Once your foundation is not level.....everything you build on top of it is going to be crooked in some way if you follow? Knowing what to do first and in which order is key in making sure that everything else you do is going to right after that.
On top of this....I suspect that if someone seeing this from the outside and asked what is wrong with this picture....they would say that trouble getting started is the problem before organization and prioritizing.
In my mind.....this would be a gigantic mistake if you were to follow the advise of this person who would lead you down the wrong path (unintentionally) based on their personal assessment of what they think is the real problem.
Now....extend that to your wife and what she sees and what she thinks is the most important thing and what you should be doing? This is part of the issue you are having I do believe because it is the same one that I have uncovered myself and am trying to change and work with it instead of fighting against it. That is part of the next statement I wanted to make
A common thing that happens in relationships with a person with ADHD is the non-ADHD sees the problems they are having directly linked to the behaviors that are causing them distress. It's also a common belief that if the person with ADHD just goes and gets some help or goes to see a therapist or coach....they will help them fix the problem and all these things will somehow go away. I may not have worded that exactly but I'm trying to tie this into the comment you made about agreeing to go see an ADHD coach or else your wife won't continue to be in a relationship with you. I get the feeling that something like this is also happening with you. moving on here but will come back to this...
Women in particular, and especially with someone with ADHD will tend to personalize these behaviors which is very difficult to see past them objectively. Thinking from the heart instead.... of thinking with their head. I am by no means implying one is better or worse than the other. It just means there is a difference in how each approach is going to see or feel about the same thing.
Women in particular, have a harder time letting go of things from the past that have caused them emotional pain or hurt. I hope I stated that correctly because I am going off of memory without and references to back this up but....I do remember reading this and I think it was somewhere on this forum or in something that Melissa Orlov has written or said. Same goes for the last statement I do believe?
The effect that being with someone who has ADHD is different than with most relationships in a few of ways. The partner many times is left feels lonely, unloved and left feeling depressed and unfulfilled.....and to the point if they were sensitive to these things before or not feeling very secure with themselves to begin with....this effect will only make this worse. As Melissa has stated about herself in the past....that she went into her relationship with her husband feeling pretty solid and self assured about herself.....but found herself feeling much more "needy" than she had been before. I think that says a lot right there.
The point here in making these statements is not to be 100% accurate even if I didn't quote them that way. The point is to highlight how your wife probably feels on some level since these things have been found to be pretty consistent in a more general sense. This includes the parts that you may or may not be looking at or even realizing that are happening? Possibly? Which are?
Not being able to prioritize your self is one thing and it definitely shows. Having someone else prioritize for you is not much better or even worse if they pick the wrong thing for the wrong reason and you follow that because you don't know which one to do yourself ....or very well.
Blind leading the blind? In a real sense yes. What do you do? To make matters worse....if you are trying to apiece your wife and what she wants, meet obligations and other unmovable time lines, chase after the randomness and unpredictability of your kids...holy cow, before you know it....you've got a cluster fuck on your hands!
What's missing is your ability to prioritize in the moment, organize your thoughts in a cohesive linear fashion and then act on it and know that it right and never look back. Wouldn't that be nice? I have no idea what that feels like! lol And when you can't do this and you act on what you know at the time....your foundation and everything that comes after that first error or mistake in this process is going to be wrong. End of story. lol
In a very real sense......we can't do this, but neither can someone else who tries to do this for us based on them and how they would do it.
So how do you get around this and still focus on your wife and what she wants and what is most important to her without using her as the means to tell you what to do first....... or as a means to rely on to prioritize for you and follow using that as your only means or criteria to work from?....
which doesn't work by the way as you probably already know.
Structure....structure, structure. Planning ahead and being ahead of the curve at all times. Leaving more time than you think you need. Predicting not that you will succeed....but predicting you will fail based on what you know about yourself. Factor in that you can't prioritize in the moment. Plan way ahead and give yourself plenty of rope so you don't hang yourself.
You need to focus on your wife and the things that are most important to here right now but not allow her to plan or prioritize the things or the order that you do them. In fact....you want to avoid having to prioritize in the moment at all costs....like the plague. But you have to be the one to arrange them and do this for yourself and then follow your own plan and stick with it. I suspect....this is what the ADHD coach is doing with you but....they are still doing it for you or just showing you how to by walking you through it and helping you learn how to do this for yourself.
That's why (coming back to this)...that it's an unrealistic expectation of you wife or others to think that all you need to do is just go get help and none of this will affect her/them anymore. That's what she would like but it not really possible. In time once you learn how to do this and get this all down that can happen. In the meantime....you going to screw up in her mind since it will still affect her the same way for a while until things improve to a certain point. Wishful thinking I'm afraid but that is a separate issue that you should find a way to talk to her about so she doesn't put you into a corner and expect to see magic performed.
Ideally....you need to do your own prioritizing and planning once you have a better understanding of what to avoid and the things that you need to do ahead of time in order to do this.
And part of this problem is exactly why your wife feels like the other wives that are with us. Our inability to prioritize and proportion the things we do ends up making them feel like they are somewhere down the list instead of at the top where they should be?
So......which one should you do first? I have no idea....it's your list, but you need to write that list down and put it in front of you and create a plan of attack and put things in order by most important to least important and then keep going back and editing the list each day since....its always going to change.
Just keep repeating to yourself......" I suck at prioritizing" and convince yourself of that and see if that will help you to remember just how bad you are at it and the first thing on your list to think about. Make use your foundation (or plan) is solid before you start building on top of it.
But make your wife and her needs and how she feels the first thing on the list for a while and see if that doesn't make it easier to know what to do first. I don't think you can go wrong there...just don't forget to do it.
Structure, plan, prioritize,wife....in that order. lol
Try this....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
EVERY TIME you schedule ANYTHING or CANCEL anything, send a text message to your wife. Doesn't have to be long: Oil Change canceled. Thurs therapy at 2pm.
do it immediately after you schedule or cancel anything. Don't rely on your memory to tell her later.
Obviously, you've learned your lesson about letting a child stay up too late on a school night. Everyone learned something from that. Your son also learned why he'll be told "no" in the future (no matter how much he begs that it will be different the next time...lol.
I hope you apologized to your wife because your decision (to not say "no" and be the "bad guy") left your wife "holding the bag" (dealing with aftermath the next day).
I know you feel very bad about this, but (I don't know you) if you're the type who is more likely to say, "yes" to your kids because:
1) it's easier
2) you don't have to listen to them complain
3) you like being the "good guy"
Then it's time for you to put on your Big Boy Pants. Being a parent isn't a popularity contest. Sure, it is EASIER to be lenient and let the kids get what they want. It's annoying to listen to them whine and complain. I get that. But....learn from my mother in law. She took the easy way out. It was easier to say, "yes," then to listen to unhappy kids. So, now all her kids are spoiled.
The last part may not apply to you. I don't know you. Maybe you're usually very strict. But, if you tend to resort to whatever is easiest or whatever the kids want, please rethink that strategy. It's likely creating more work for your wife.
Lack of communication, unclear communication, not always being t
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
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Lack of communication, unclear communication, not always being there emotionally, having to pick up my messes (metaphorically), being late, not following through with tasks I say I will do, forgetfulness, running away from conflicts, defensiveness, not wanting a 4th child that she wanted until it was too late (and during the narrow windows of opportunities, messing up so much that she doesn't want anything to do with me, therefore no babymaking exercised), not doing anything she wants that may disagree with me without putting up a fight (getting married, having children, getting a dog, choosing where to live, etc), being tough to talk to without getting emotional, not working on my ADD issues consistently, not being romantic or showing interest in our relationship like I used to, being inconsistent in fulfilling my obligations around the house or at lest communicating when I'm not able to and need help, making excuses, did I mention my communication issues. . . . I'm sure as a wife of an ADDer, you might find all of these things unfamiliar . . . . (rather, I fully expect you to ask me if I was your husband on this blog since I know I sound like just about every other ADD spouse)
>>>
I'm a big believer in the use of text messages and emails. They serve as a quick and easy way to communicate, even if the person is in your presence and you want to document important facts....like appts, etc.
I don't know if you do this, but my H's brain moves so fast that he'll change subjects and I won't know it....causing confusion for me and frustration for him when I don't understand him.
For instance, let's say we're talking about his dad. H will start talking about his dad. Then he'll say "he" or "him" as the pronouns for talking about his dad. H's thoughts are moving quickly in his head and something will trigger a thought about our son. H will not mention our son, he will just say something like, "is he working today?" Since the only "he" that has been mentioned so far is my father in law, I won't give the right response....because I WON'T KNOW that he has suddenly changed the subject!!!
H gets upset and will often even deny that he does this....because he can't distinguish what he said out-loud with what was said "in his head." He'll blame me for "not paying attention." Luckily, a few times there have been other witnesses who will vouch for the fact that H never indicated that he was changing the subject.
I just gave this example as "food for thought". Do you do anything like that? Do you change subjects and your listener either "can't keep up" or doesn't realize the subject has changed?
As for being late.....There is only one solution and you know what it is. You need to allow more time to get where you need to be. If you think it will only take 10 minutes, allow for 20 (or whatever you need so as not to be late). BRING something with you so that if you do arrive early, you can keep yourself busy....listening to music, playing a game on your phone, etc.
not doing anything she wants that may disagree with me without p
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
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not doing anything she wants that may disagree with me without putting up a fight (getting married, having children, getting a dog, choosing where to live, etc),
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what are you saying here? Who is asking for what? Who is disagreeing? It's hard to follow.
Re:not doing anything she wants that may disagree with me withou
Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on
She wanted those (marriage, children, choosing where to live, a dog). Originally, I was either resistant, afraid, etc, so I either became defensive or confrontational. Some of ti was based on past experience (I didn't want a dog because I KNEW I would be the one that would take care of it, walk it, etc. She had cats before, and even though they were hers, she NEVER cleaned out the litter (so I did it), etc.). As a last resort, I told her OK for the dog, AS LONG AS I WAS NOT REQUIRED TO WALK IT, especially in the snow and rain. . . . guess who wound up walking it - ME. Kids - I would NEVER give them up and I am grateful for every day that I am blessed with them. However, the 4th one that she wants gives me agida. . . . our lives are super crazy with all of their activities that we drive them to with barely a moment to breathe . . . . we are strapped for cash always with really no means of increasing our income. . . . so with all of this, I have NO idea how we could handle this . . . . . not to mention every so often my DW complains that she has NO time for herself and feels like everyone else is just taking from her. So with all of this in mind, I was really hesitant for any more responsibilities to push us over teh tipping point. When I expressed this, I was told that for all of the things she had to fight with me for and all of the things she's given me, this was something she really wanted and why couldn't I just give her 1 thing without any grief. . . .she said that everything else that I had worried about turned out OK in teh end, but only after I put up a fight. To me, this is "different" since with all of those other times I did not have the full life experience I have today.
This is what I mean. . . .. . part of me doesn't know what perspective to trust.
being inconsistent in fulfilling my obligations around the house
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
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being inconsistent in fulfilling my obligations around the house or at lest communicating when I'm not able to and need help
<<<
One thing that many ADHD people struggle with is routines. It's routines that will save you.
If you commit to something, like: "every Saturday morning (before watching TV or any other leisure), I will dedicate 45 minutes (or an hour) towards fulfilling a household obligation.
Another one can be: every night when I come home from work, before I eat or watch TV, I will dedicate 15 minutes towards some household need. (here are some quick chores that can be done in 15 minutes or less: Sort the laundry and start a load, Wash any dirty dishes in the sink, sweep the floor, run the vacuum in the living room, change the sheets on the bed and remake the bed....those are just a few of many chores that can be done in 15 minutes or less.
Hi...ADHD_highway_to
Submitted by c ur self on
What are the things that get on your wife's nerves? Lack of communication, unclear communication, not always being there emotionally, having to pick up my messes (metaphorically), being late, not following through with tasks I say I will do, forgetfulness, running away from conflicts, defensiveness, not wanting a 4th child that she wanted until it was too late (and during the narrow windows of opportunities, messing up so much that she doesn't want anything to do with me, therefore no babymaking exercised), not doing anything she wants that may disagree with me without putting up a fight (getting married, having children, getting a dog, choosing where to live, etc), being tough to talk to without getting emotional, not working on my ADD issues consistently, not being romantic or showing interest in our relationship like I used to, being inconsistent in fulfilling my obligations around the house or at lest communicating when I'm not able to and need help, making excuses, did I mention my communication issues. . . . I'm sure as a wife of an ADDer, you might find all of these things unfamiliar . . . . (rather, I fully expect you to ask me if I was your husband on this blog since I know I sound like just about every other ADD spouse)
Yep!..I figured I would catch my wife on this website pretending to be a man:)...LOL..After 8 years with her your list is quiet normal in this house...
J has given you some great advice about talking to your wife about the whole picture of your struggles and how that limits your ability to view life as she does or desires you to, no matter how hard you wish you could...I've come to realize if personalities (we will just say add is a personality because it's part of you) were the size of a poster paper, we would always be in opposite corners.
One suggestion: If your not already doing this....the last thing you do at night, and the first thing when you wake up (other than your pray life) Have a hand written list...And review it...With all the things that are on your calendar for the next few days...Review them and make sure the things you and your wife need to be in agreement on have been discussed...Then put this list in the front pocket of your pants,...(FRONT POCKET)..If it gets mangled make a new list everyday, and read over it..Mark through what you've accomplished...And as things change or need added, added it....
It's really helped me stay on task on the years and not forget the important things, it's simple, it's quick....All the things adders love when it come to being responsible....
C
excellent subject and posts
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you everyone who wrote these truly heartfelt posts. I've learned so many things and felt them deeply as well. I've wanted to hear an "I'm sorry" from my ADHD husband only because I've only heard a couple over the course of over 32 years of marriage. But, I hear what the ADHD folks have said about the "I'm sorry" being an empty phrase when it's not RECEIVED in a good way. I"m SO SORRY for that happening to all of you, and I hope I haven't added to your hurt and frustration with my need in writing such.
I love reading Jay's posts, and all the others who are ADHD, because it gives me more understanding into your lives and my own. Thank YOU so very much.
Jay, I've read several times
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Jay, I've read several times where you wrote about saying "I'm sorry" to your wife yet again, and then feeling really terrible about yourself. And then she doesn't seem to accept that you really ARE sorry. (and other ADHD'ers have said this also) and the phrase "I"m sorry" is said so much, it kind of ends up as an empty phrase. (sad)
My ADHD husband doesn't seem to feel the need to ever "say' the words "I'm sorry"....., to the person it needs to be said to, but several weeks later, he might say that he's sorry about the incident to another person, which makes him look "good" and "sensitive" to the other person he's talking to. (where it almost seems like it's feeding a Narcissistic need in him to hear other say, "Oh, you're so thoughtful and caring". But, he hasn't ever told the person that was hurt that he was sorry. (It's WEIRD) and terribly confusing. Why say it to someone ELSE, but not to the person involved?
He also doesn't do what most of you other guys do, and that's "feel bad about himself", when he fails over and over at things. He gets mad at himself, but then dismisses it. He also, often blames me or someone else for what HE did. Sometimes he's doing that "JOKINGLY", but it doesn't come across as joking, it comes across more as hurtful jabs. In my case, it would be SO HELPFUL if he WOULD admit he did "whatever" and I would be SO EAGER to forgive and LOVE HIM MORE for being more OPEN about what's going on with him instead of always feeling like he has to deflect, deny or distract and get defensive.
I also get tired of being talked to in angry tones of voice, and getting dismissed for asking him about it. He doesn't think it's that way, but everyone ELSE does. He sounds angry, and it comes across as angry, and even LOOKS angry. So, I think......just what am I SUPPOSED to think when you say you AREN'T angry, but all the evidence SAYS you ARE ANGRY........A LOT.
I'm eager to hear ANY insight you could give me on this. I appreciate your posts SO MUCH, because you so openly talk about your ADHD and how you FEEL. It's more helpful than you know.
Anger and apologies
Submitted by LindaLou on
I appreciate this post so much. This is exactly it. For people not understanding, it IS just as this post describes. It has helped me so much to find this website, take the counseling sessions and understand more about ADHD so I have more empathy for the constant struggle. As the non- adhd spouse, I can't imagine what its like to feel the need to apologize all the time. I don't want apologies really, I don't want my adult husband to feel bad about himself. That is not the point nor my wish. I do want the acknowledgement that it feels just as this post states. It is crazy making really. I choose today to not feel crazy and not approach my relationship with anger.
What do I want if not apologies? I want acknowledgement for the situation and a real, executable plan to move forward. Something that will improve the situation. Progress not perfection. I do not expect perfection....I think he thinks I do....the waiting for the other shoe to drop syndrome. I hear a lot of "Well, let's stop doing that." and " I am fine how I am and I am not going to change, you need to accept me as I am." Yes, I have been angry through out our 11 year marriage - so has he. I really didn't get this deal and truly felt he was doing all of this passive aggressively and aggressively. I had no idea. I have spent quite a while trying to work with what I have learned, been adding more humor, more loving statements, more softening comments with Honey, Sweetie, Please, Thank you. ( I am not perfect at this, nor am I insinuating I am....progress not perfection.) It seems to almost be working against me. I am fine with him....I am not expecting things from him so there must not be a problem. There is no acknowledgement of the ADHD now, went off the medicine 6 months ago, will not work with a counselor or coach, no treatment or acknowledgement of the issue. SO, If I don't ask for what I need, take care of the marriage business and just live my life, essentially no partnering, coming together for a comment now and then, watch a tv show together and off to sleep, rarely intimacy, we are fine. When I bring up an issue, no matter how respectfully...and I practice before I say it....use I statements, I get accused of THE TONE, and off we fly into anger....both of us. He says no to treatment and I am left with....no to treatment.
I would really like to hear from some ADHD folks for some advice, please.
How Do We Feel?
Submitted by kellyj on
If you were ever curious about this and wanted to know how an ADHD person really feels underneath what they say in the moments of anger and frustration...read what I wrote in one of these moments when I had to come to terms with this and things that crossed my mind in that moment. These are old old feelings and still ones that exist somewhere within how I feel about myself and everyone else looking at me from the other side. To be clear here....this is my self talk talking but it is how I feel at times even if I don't say it or am able to put it into context so well. I thought this might be useful to anyone to see inside my thoughts while I was venting my anger and relating the same anger that I have with someone else who shares the same feelings. In this case....both people in this conversation have ADHD....this does not change anything that I have said in the past or what I am trying to do. These thoughts and feelings are what are doing the fighting and where my anger and frustration come from.
It is not imagined or at times...all that far from the truth. You may not agree from the other side...but this is what it appears like to us and the conclusions a person might come to IF this really is what is happening. It's one sided and incomplete....but it still exists on some level and it's still how I feel at times whether it's right or wrong. This comes from the stark reality of the truth and the truth is not always all that pretty. The anger is mine and I have to deal with it. Apologies usually come when there is some kind of resolution that is clear and easy to understand on both side. I think it will clear how I feel and why I see this as a situation without an answer and no resolution to be found.
I am ashamed of my behavior on the day in question in my story and it is one that I have not seen in myself for many many years only to say...this isn't something that has ever happened with my wife and I...but with another man who I do not see as weaker or more disadvantaged in any way more or less than I am.....this took on a completely different course of action. It was the wrong one of course and there was no excuse for it on my part as justified as I was...but it served to bring this to a place that has changed me and did something to me that I am still discovering the reasons why for the better. It was another one of those "defining moments" that get burned into your psyche forever.
Just to add here....in this moment with my co worker in the parking lot after work....I am both ashamed of my own behavior...and have no motivation what so ever to apologize to him. At that moment...he was written off and out of my life forever and there is no going back.
RE: 3 reasons never to share your story
1. Employees could scapegoat you when problems arose
2. Your boss may doubt your ability to accomplish assignments
3. You may be looked over for advancement opportunities
I totally agree. People believe that laws against discrimination will help, but one can always argue that some qualities are required here and you don't seem qualified - whether you call it ADHD or not. I'm not yet open with my diagnose, officially I'm just Coocoo NOS. The problem is, I already experience those issues. It's like they try to hide me in a corner where I can neither do good or bad.
Nevertheless: I do intend to come out in the future, as soon as I've figured out how to reveil it. It takes too much energy hiding it and I really don't feel I have much to lose. I still hope it can make it easier for some people to understand that I'm not bipolar or borderline-psychothic, that I don't have any personality disorder and that I'm not a wild animal. I'm not saying that the conditions mentioned above would necessarily disqualify me, but it's a problem that people are reading in the wrong things in my behaviors.
(ME) These are my words exactly. Let me break this down for you.
I totally agree. People believe that laws against discrimination will help, but one can always argue that some qualities are required here and you don't seem qualified - whether you call it ADHD or not. I'm not yet open with my diagnose, officially I'm just Coocoo NOS.
What seems to be missing here is how people feel this way about you. This is how they feel already...you ARE an animal to them .....they are the ones who are not being honest and coming out and saying so to your face but they are thinking it and feeling it just the same. I see them as cowards and weak for not having the same courage as I do to simply come forth, admit your failings and be open and honest which requires you to take ownership of it and speak directly to others if you can summon the courage to do this with them. There is no way I can see doing this without having to admit that you cannot do some things the same as other people. If you don't want this to happen. Don't be honest and open.
Animals do not deserve to be treated the same as humans and therefore are disqualified period. Not just at work....everywhere you go in all your relationships across the board. ADHD dehumanizes you automatically as a person and nothing you do is going to change how another person feels about this no matter what you do. You are in check mate and don't even realize that you are and the game is over but you keep playing anyway thinking that you have a chance to win when there is no chance or hope of winning ever. If this is the case.....why play the game?
This is my experience exactly. All three things happened as described when I stupidly and ignorantly thought that I had a responsibility to be open and honest and inform my employer that whatever it was he thought he saw was not accurate and then explain to him my limitations in only 1 or 2 areas of concern. The problem was (in my stupid ignorant view)...that the attitude he had towards me was already there and he had already formed his opinion from the first impression that to the things he saw.
As a net result of this for me....the attitudes and treatment I received only became worse than before. I had just handed my boss and co workers the perfect excuse and justification to treat me like an indentured servant and dehumanize me in their eyes.( I used the "N" word as a metaphor only to express my personal feelings about this as a means to compare the same injustice to myself in my attempt to get them to see their contribution to why I was so angry.
Ultimately...this ended up with me almost beating the s*&t out of one of my co workers after work in the parking lot of our employer when he mouthed off this attitude to me (now...one too many times) outside of the safety of work in our off time without the roles and expectations in place to prevent this. This interchange concluded with two other co workers having to hold both my arms and hold me back because I was going to beat him within an inch of his life if he didn't step down and recant his attitude towards me. I ended up breaking a toe when I got a lucky kick in while my arms were held back and caught this guy in the hip only inches from his gonads which was my intended target. I realize now in retrospect....his words meant nothing and had no effect on my self esteem what so ever. I was offended, furious and angry at his tone, his attitude and the thoughts behind it that I know like the back of my hand. I just never put two and two together before since I don't see myself (my self image or self esteem) being based on my failings and have never had any lack of self confidence that would say...just because I have ADHD....does it preclude me from doing anything or disqualify me from being treated like anyone else.
The problem with laws that protect people from discrimination or being treated differently....is that only force people to go against how they feel and prevent them from acting on those feelings. The feelings are there whether the law is or not. It will not protect you from what other people think about you and how people feel about what they see on a personal level. In a moment of somewhat justifiable anger towards my co worker (his actions were completely out of line and unacceptable using any standard you can think of).....it ignorance on my end was my inability to understand this. No law or beating the crap out of a person is going to change how someone else feels and if they feel you do not qualify for the basic respects as everyone else.....the is literally nothing you can do about it. I was attempting to beat the respect I felt I deserved out of my co worker and force him (the same as the law would do) to give me a respect that I felt I deserved and he did not.
Ultimately....I quit this job only two weeks later after 26 years of employment by walking out one day without notice or without even talking to my boss directly and only telling one of his family members who had been reasonable with me in the past who I felt would be the only source who might not take this attitude and use it against me in the moment which I knew if that were to happen....I would probably lose it and come unglued at the seems I was so furious and disgusted at the entire situation. I never looked back and I never talked to anyone there since even with numerous phone calls and attempts to contact me and try and get me to talk to them. They needed resolution the same as I did but I felt so self righteous in my own defense that if I was not going to get any resolution to this problem....neither were they. If I have to live it ....so do you.
I totally get what you are saying....being a little coocoo is better than handing them a golden pass to be disrespectful and dehumanize you which all anyone needs to do this. The attitude and how they feel about me are already there by any other name you choose to call it.
I totally agree. People believe that laws against discrimination will help, but one can always argue that some qualities are required here and you don't seem qualified - whether you call it ADHD or not. I'm not yet open with my diagnose, officially I'm just Coocoo NOS. The problem is, I already experience those issues. It's like they try to hide me in a corner where I can neither do good or bad.
Nevertheless: I do intend to come out in the future, as soon as I've figured out how to reveil it.
This is the paradox isn't it?....it's not about how you do it....it's how do you get other people to change how they feel about it no matter what you or call.... or even what you do in all other areas of your life that are not affected by ADHD. They will still see the animal and treat you accordingly.
It takes too much energy hiding it and I really don't feel I have much to lose.
Does it really? If you don't have anything to lose....then nothing you do will matter? The effort and energy in trying to be respectful, open and honest and then dealing with the consequences is a lot more work than lying, hiding and pretending. I've been doing that all my life....I can do this in my sleep with no effort what so ever. Isn't that easier than the alternative? If there are consequences for doing the right thing then why do it? Conversely...the consequences of not doing it are much easier and familiar and in my mind based on my experience...are much less damaging to me. It's easier to lie, cheat and steal than to be honest in this metaphor if the results of being honest are worse. It's an easy choice to make don't you think?
I still hope it can make it easier for some people to understand that I'm not bipolar or borderline-psychothic, that I don't have any personality disorder and that I'm not a wild animal. I'm not saying that the conditions mentioned above would necessarily disqualify me, but it's a problem that people are reading in the wrong things in my behaviors.
If it's all the same anyway....why bother? If they see an animal...changing the name isn't going to help. They will still treat you the same? This isn't just happening at work...it's been happening to you all of your life and you just didn't realize it. The failure on your part is not being able to see it.
After reading this and coming to the same conclusion.....I became furious and thought to myself....why should I even care if it doesn't matter anyway?
My final thoughts about what I wrote here in a different forum to only those who have ADHD....what happened to me that day was coming to this realization and I reacted in same way I have always reacted to it. Outraged, indifferent and at an impasse only...my self esteem and self image are not effected by it anymore.
But I am still trying to come to terms with the discrepancy of how I feel about myself and how others feel about me even if they are not saying it....I know that it's true. It fits perfectly with what I see and how I feel when I am confronted with the same thing that I have been confronted with my entire life only this time....I know what other people are thinking of me. The question that still remains completely unanswered is...why do I still try? Why try or why care if no one else does about me. If they can't feel the same about me as I do for them....then what's the point?
This is a rhetorical question by the way that I am asking myself to answer not anyone else. What would change this for me and how I feel if I believed that this was not true. Unfortunately....I don't believe that it isn't and this was just one more piece of evidence that confirms this to me. What I do or say to other people is the opposite of how I feel. If that weren't the case. I would not be where I am right at this very moment. I don't want to be loved as a family pet or animal....I want to be loved as a human being on the same level as everyone else but the actions and attitudes I witness from other people consistently confirm this to me on a daily basis.
J
One More Thing to Add Here....
Submitted by kellyj on
Whether my thinking in those terms is accurate or not....how I feel here is not up for debate. How I feel is how I feel regardless of what my thought process is telling me otherwise. I just wanted to take this one step further. Picture yourself experiencing this everywhere you go on some level all day long....and then picture coming home at night to your wife who is doing the same thing with you but only worse and more intense. The feeling that comes from this is that there is no where to go and no where to hide....all that is left is to fight back just like I did with my co worker in the moment because you realize....this will never end until the day you die. Not just from my wife...but from everyone no matter where I go. It is global and it's consistent with a lifetime of experience that never ends up to this very day.
This is why you cannot take this personally if you are married to us because it isn't. It extends to everyone including you. This is what you do when you feel like a victim and are singled out from everyone else. Dismissed, disqualified and dismembered from society.
Those are my feelings and what they are telling me....not what I think.
J