Find a virtual-slapper to wake up your husband and The Reason
Hello Everyone:
I'm a man in my early 40's, married 12 years, have two wonderful young boys (elementary school age) with my wife. After last several years of anger, frustration of why we're both not happy, our marriage counseler finally got around to asking me something: Dan, do you think you have ADD? So after the usual procrastination a couple more months, I finally saw a psychologist. I also have just been diagnosed in the last couple weeks that that I have ADHD and I'm now taking Strattera, so far just 1 week... but it's about 1 month too late, as my wife and I are now separated and planning to divorce. Divorce is the consequence of ADHD in a marriage left undetected for years.
It's unfortunate the many of the posts on this Website forum say that the husbands either don't accept they have ADD/ADHD or know they have it yet still don't want to get theropy or take medications. Frankly, these married men simply need to be slapped upside their heads by another married man that also has ADHD and does accept and has seen it's affects. Divorce is awful for two people that loved each other, got married and had wonderful children, but broke apart over the years because of an sneaky marriage disease like ADHD.
ADHD is such a very powerful, sneaky, and vicious "disease" I call it. It's a marriage disease, that the man having it, if he doesn't want to finally accept it and then fix it with theropy and/or meds, he is guaranteed doomed to never keep a spouse and a happy marriage. I literally wish now I had some volunteer slapper to tell me our marriage problems was, while not 100%, is "something wrong within me, it's not her". Now, the slapper I have, the shock in my life, is going thru a divorce. Nobody with ADHD realizes what really matters in life, until they don't have it anymore. Again, this is very powerful, sneaky, and vicious "disease" usually within men who are smart and strong willed and confident. That is why we think, "hey... it can't be me." or "this is who I am, I'm king of my world" Oh My God, how wrong we with ADHD are, somebody please slap those foolish, unwitting men with ADHD before they do more damage to their marriage and themselves (slap, figuratively of course). They need a shock wakeup call, like separation/divorce which I'm living now.
Men with ADHD married their wives because they love them, their wives loved them. They are each others oxygen... without a loving companion, men with ADHD cannot grow/live or be happy, but eventually sufficate if he doesn't acknowledge and fix his ADHD. I believe the true charactor of a man... any married man with ADD/ADHD.... is shown when he doesn't fight his spouse, but he fights his ADD/ADHD. It's not courageous to fight a loving, generous women, it's very courageous to fight a powerful, sneaky, and vicious ADHD within one's self. Like myself, perhaps some men need to be figuratively slapped upside the head before they finally get it.
What's a quick example of how a man with ADHD effects a loving women in a marriage? I cry everytime I see this music video, call "The Reason". The couple love each other. There is mutual love, therefore the girl in the video, put's her life on the line for her man. My wife put her entire being into our marriage and I was the one taking love for granted and running her over. I ran over my wife, though not knowingly because I let ADHD distract and fool me and I let ADHD put me first. The question is will married men with ADHD realize and finally see what they are actually doing, what they are risking to lose? This video has a happy ending... but someday, men with ADHD left untreated... the girl will NOT get up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q30-2QpZVc
Technorati Tags: Anger, Frustration & ADHD
I wish you could talk to mine!
Dan, I wish my husband could read your post. We've been separated for a couple of months now, and he is obstinate in thinking that everything is my fault. He was recently diagnosed with ADD, and is going on meds.
It's heartbreaking and frustrating for me. There's the wonderful guy I married . . . under there, somewhere, trapped under this disorder. But all I get is this angry guy who was first misdiagnosed, and then diagnosed after way too much strife and suffering in the marriage. He won't even consider that his ADD was to blame for so many of our problems. The way I see it, admitting that what went on wasn't his fault--but, all the while, admitting responsibility for himself, his past actions and his future treatment, making amends, and so forth--is a perfect starting point for healing both himself and his marriage. I'd be so willing to work with that, if he came to me with an understanding heart and a real wish to make things better. But, no. That's not where he is with this, and I doubt he ever will be.
I'm being encouraged to divorce him and move on. I'm having a hard time with this right now, but I feel as though it's inevitable. How sad. I wish there was something I could do, but I've spent so long taking care of him and the marriage that I'm already running on empty. The whole world seems after me to take care of myself and forget about him. The fact that he is 100% unwilling to work on the marriage sadly clinches that.
I wish he'd reach the level of understanding you have. I pray that you're somehow able to heal your marriage. If my husband came to me and spoke as you did in your post, there's no way I'd divorce him.
Gentlemen, please don't miss the boat.
Thanks for your prayers.... you say if your husband came to you and spoke as I did in my post, there's no way you'd divorce him... that shows amazing love and strength. He is fortunate to have that still holding on at this point. The irony on this Web site, I read so many spouses torn by their husbands ADD but still want to save the marriage, yet the husband with the problem won't fix it. I'm not so lucky anymore, I now have read all the posts and now understand what my ADHD has done, yet my wife will have nothing of the marriage anymore. I missed the boat after 12 years of marriage, by just one-month and one-argument too many. We were on a wonderful family vacation all week, and during the last few hours of trip , we had an argument over something as little as our youngest son needing to go to the bathroom. I told my son to go pee before we leave, he said no, so not 10 minutes later, he asked to go pee. I just was giving him a firm fatherly lecture about planning ahead, but my wife interrupted... he’s just a child, etc. I thought all week we all relaxed and had fun, the photos show us all happy, but later discovered I ignored alot and didn't help my wife much all week, which now explains the tension that last day when the argument occurred. I was clueless of all this at the time, since was before I even talked to a doctor about ADHD, but it’s all clear now. We both agree during the last few years of our marriage, I didn't start arguments, (I just ignored her needs) but when she started an argument, a trait of ADHD is to dive into headfirst, and I verbally exploded, said things I shouldn't have, cried and was quiet and brooded while I drove 2 hours home. Later on, I thought we were over it as usual, another bump, but the next day... I came home from work and she told me she made the decision, we are done. I was in shock, my virtual slap upside my head. Only then did I run towards theropy and now today know I have ADHD, is all very clear now.. she got tired of it all. But ADHD doesn't matter now, it's not a Get Out of Jail Free card, the damage is done. She will not wait to see me work to change with therapy and Strattera, I see now and so much want to repair the marriage, she simple wants to end it. Missed the boat by one-month, one too many arguments. After years of not being first, to undo the damage, she is putting herself first, then our kids... and somewhere near the bottom I'm to take care of my problem without her, though she wishes me well. She is so very angry. We can't talk, only text about kids, we can't hug (makes her furious if asked, so I don’t anymore)... she doesn't want to even see me or have a meal together with kids. She found an attorney, wants couseling only how to proceed with a divorce, she just wants me out of her life and any of my words are meaningless to her. ADHD is a confusing, sneaky, vicious disease on a marriage of two good, loving, caring people. I hope just one husband with ADHD with still a chance reads this, understands and fights what's inside himself and does what he vowed to do...love, honor and cherish his bride he looked so deeply and giddily at in front of his family and friends. Gentlemen, if you still dig deep and have the love for your wife... don't let your pride and ADHD cloud or erase the reasons you made those vows. Remember that wedding day, you would do anything for your bride… please, please do not let today, a first day towards a better life for you, be different. You absolutely do not want to feel what I’m feeling now, don’t miss the boat for this rough but manageable ride ahead towards better waters.
Hi Dan,
Is there anyway you can show your wife this post? Or do you have a mutual friend that can direct her to this site? I only write this because about a year ago my fiance was diagnosed with ADD at 32 years of age. To see the leaps and bounds he has made with his life in such a short time, and his (our) determination to keep on top of things makes me so proud, especially because I could see how difficult things were for him previously. For him, the diagnosis and medication was like (his words) "lifting a blanket off my head." He said he could suddenly see and he could suddenly understand his actions and what had hurt himself and others in his life in the past. The day he decided to be so committed to managing his ADD is the day I decided to be just as committed in supporting him. It does not mean there are still days when it gets to both of us, but we can't remember the last time we went to bed angry now. I wish you the best of luck with your ADD management and also with your wife and your present situation. Cheers, Elisabeth
lifting a blanket off my head
Hello Elisabeth:
Thanks for the comments and wishes. I don't know if I should email her this discussion thread, but perhaps I can find a close, neutral friend to do so. ... I already emailed her this Web site after discovering it, and she texted me back, quote "please stop emailing me on ADD". I guessing my wife is so angry that I now even have ADHD, like... "big deal, now he has an excuse, but I'm not going to let him stop me". This is why ADHD is so sneaky and vicious over the years undetected since it is relatively unheard of and it doesn't kill people, it just slowly kills marriages. If ADHD was publically talked about and also killed people like cancer, all men with ADHD on this forum would rush to get therapy and medications immediately. But ADHD doesn't kill, so some people are willing to just let it slide, brush it off, or say... yeah, whatever, tell it to somebody who cares. My wife was the most loving, giving person I have ever met, but now she is as cold towards me as ever and wants nothing to change her mind. She is putting herself first now, that is what she told me.
What I've done (or not done for her) over the years, just being diagnosed and myself accepting having ADHD is just one-month too late. Again, my words are meaningless to her, they upset her worse. All I can do is love my two children and fight against the ADHD and continue daily be the good man that ADHD has hindered me. I see exactly what your fiancé said, it's like "lifting a blanket off my head." That's a good analogy, men accepting their ADD/ADHD, reading about it, talking about it, visiting Web sites like this about it, and willing to take therapy and medication truly do see everything in a brighter light AFTER the blanket is lifted. I'm still very sad, alone, emotional and keep thinking back. I have my daily ups/downs and my path towards getting better is going to be longer since I don't have a supporting wife to keep my mind on course, but maybe her path will cross mine again someday. I only know and can control my own destination.
thanks...
Slapping
I "slapped" my husband a few times. It didn't work. He is gone now and I'm trying to quickly adjust to it so I don't backslide. However, if he acknowledged just ONCE to me that he needed help and was willing to get it I'd cave. Try to communicate with your wife. If it doesn't work, it doesn't, but you've tried. Sometimes that's all we ask.
tried to communicate
Thanks for the comments. I have tried, but she's isn't ready to listen. She tells me to stop bringing up ADHD, she'll look into ADHD on her own whenever she is ready. She has recently filed for legal separation, not divorce. My wife is normally very loving and caring, but I think she is afraid at this time to change her mind, and look wishy-washy or weak to her friends and mother, an old school person that won't buy much into any ADHD baloney and is very bold women, picks openly on her husband, a gentleman, and is head of her family. Our kids and I don't have much of a chance against that type of influence upon my wife, you can't disappoint mother... All I can do is take care of my young kids the best I'm can and hope time heals before our kids are affected. We would both agree, most of our arguments were started by my wife, I just usually exploded to end the arguments. Now, I just smile whenever I see my grumpy wife when we switch between time with kids. My psychologist thinks it's a powergrab, as with ADHD I unintentionally over the years ignored my wife, so now that she has my attention and is calling the shots and being cold to me, it's hard to let that power go. This is cruel payback, but in reality this punishment is only making me lose my true love for her and leading to our kids (who are showing signs of ADHD themselves) of growing up with separated or eventually divorced parents. It's a living nightmare, again why I think ADHD is sneaky and horrible marriage disease. In my case, you just don't see it killing a marriage, until it's detected too late. I'm doing okay, in theropy and taking Strattera and just being the best dad I can. Time will tell how this finishes up. Thanks.
Here is a good video about how Divorce affects Kids, produced by the NBC's Today show.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/13934608
I think this story makes sense, this was my household, we simply argued all the time because of ADHD coming between us. I hope my wife reaches out to me and works to rekindle our marriage soon before our kids are affected. I still love my wife, she still doesn't believe or perhaps she already has lost all love for me or under the powerful negative influence of her mother and friends and it's just too late. ADHD = what a nasty disorder! It may defeat my marriage, a painful lesson so I won't let is defeat me. People with ADHD hyperfocus, and I promise myself always to hyperfocus to win over this disorder and live a happy, productive life.
Wow! You are amazing! I think
Wow! You are amazing! I think it is absolutely wonderful that you share your experience with others and try to make a difference in other people's lives, marriages, as well as in your life. I know that frustration with my husband having ADHD.. he loves me, he means well, but there are explosions, distance, days or weeks I'm ignored, and such hateful things are said!! We haven't been married long and have a little boy.. its just so hard to feel alone sometimes and not fully supported. I printed what you wrote in hopes that he would be open to reading it. The end of your message made me cry.. its so beautiful and I feel for you! Its hard I'm sure to live with this horrible disease that takes control over a person. You mean well and probably always wanted the best for you both and your family..you just had to find the moment and time to take care of yourself and figure out ways to work things out best. I'm so sorry about your marriage, and wish it could work out. I think if she read this she would be deeply touched! I hope you two can find a strong friendship through this process and wish you nothing but happiness in your life. Thank you for being such a strong man to be open with all of us and to speak honestly! I truly wish you well!! No matter what all of us need to find ways to improve ourself ADHD or not.. and thats what you have done! This site is amazing to get views from other people on ways to make things better.. I'm still trying to find that place where there is a calmness and your message really touched me!!!thank you!
thank you, Kenya
Your post made me cry too, but it lifted my heart! Thank you, I feel great now and smiling. :-) It helps me and brings peace to everything if one ADHD family can stay together, as a result of one family that cannot. You have a little boy, I have two. Your boy may have ADHD someday, as do mine. My advice is to learn everything you can about ADHD, including Adult ADHD, since it will help you strengthen your current understanding that your husband does love you, and someday you perhaps may need to provide ADHD advice to your son in his relationships. Be an ADHD expert. Your husband however, has the most work to do. "he loves me, he means well, but there are explosions, distance, days or weeks I'm ignored, and such hateful things are said!!" I was the same way. For things to work well, your husband needs to be an ADHD expert, plus implement the changes on himself, which is incredibly hard. He needs meds, therapy, coaching, self awareness, and the all important "will power" to keep the ADHD traits in check. What helps is the love, understanding and support of a wife. I don't have that now, but he still does! I'm excited for him! But he must not take you for granted, so after he truly understands his ADHD, he will always feel amazed that you stayed... relative to the unintentional pain he caused to you. Men are impressed with strength when they see it, not physical strength, just strength. Someday, I hope he sees all that emotional weight he put your thru. When he sees everything his ADHD has done, he'll say to himself. "Wow, my wife carried all of that, and she didn't break?" He will see you as the strongest person in the world and will have the highest respect of you. A marriage needs Love and Respect. Love is a wonderful emotion, if there is love in your marriage, GREAT. Respect comes from Strength: strength is courage, forgiveness, understanding, knowledge, will power, etc.... none of these are physical, so they are something we all could have. Keep your love, show your strength, and if your ADHD spouse is able to remove the blinders of ADHD, your family will see itself as the most fortunate in the world. I'm excited for your family!
Thank you for your kind
Thank you for your kind words! It is really nice to actually talk to someone experiencing the affects of ADHD. My husband came home today after a few days of arguing and mean mean comments, some that are unforgiveable.. He was open to seeing if I needed to get anything done after working all morning, also read the posting you had and continued reading on.. it was comforting and just that bit of effort took some weight off my shoulders and showed that he really does care. I just would like to see that acknowledgement of strength and respect you mention he will have for me someday and sooner rather than later. I wish you the best of luck! As you said I'm trying to really educate myself the best I can and know that it may be a possibility for my son to have it too. It just gets hard sometimes and feels like your world is going to fall apart and the person who should be supportive, loving and your "rock" should be no matter what through good times or bad. I'm sure you know this feeling all too well. Thank you for your response. I appreciate you uplifting me as well and speaking such words of wisdom that my husband read and felt a similarity too.. He liked what you had said about Thomas Edison:) lol.. thanks again and best of luck. I hope to talk w/ you again on this site.. it seems to be very helpful and give me another view to what a man with ADHD goes through.
Hi Dan....
I think I'm going to send my husband your post and see if he'll read it. He's been in denial of his ADHD for years (I suspected it well before it was confirmed by a doctor) and is still not seeking treatment. I've decided on a separation as I'm now convinced that he'll never put his wife and family first (we have three kids). It's heartbreaking and pointless...why would anyone risk losing his family over such a thing? I'm tired of being taken for granted, dictated to, controlled, lied to, verbally abused and made to feel unworthy and just plain stupid. I matter....I count. My husband had a great thing...a wife who truly loved him and went above and beyond because of it. It was never reciprocated. So sad.....so very sad. I'm just so tired of talking to a brick wall...he's unmoving, unbending and as usual, convinced he's always right. "Slapping" wouldn't have any effect in this case.....brick walls don't feel anything. :(
I wish you all the best, Dan. I do hope that things work out for you and your wife. I will keep you in my prayers for smoother days.
I would do anything to go back in time and slap myself.
Thanks Flower Lady... It's incredible how ADHD families have very similar stories, so many families... and likely why the very reason this Web site exists. It's almost eerie. I read your post and wanted to reply. The thing that stood out in your post that my wife told me was the biggest reason she had enough, was the verbal abuse. Not so much 4 letter words (I never cuss in public or mixed company, I think those boorish people in bars or ball games are jerks), but just between her and me I would use sharply stinging replies or dramatic gestures to retaliate against her when I noticed she getting annoyed with me. I was always minding my own business and always thinking to myself then would eventually say to her, 'what's your problem?' Next thing we knew, we're both going at it verbally, and I knew how to play that terrible game more than she did. In our household I at least thought it was 50/50 before I knew I had ADHD. In reality, with ADHD it was really 90/10 my problem, even thought she started most of our arguments. Yes, she started most of our arguments, so I was thinking 50/50 pre-discovery of ADHD, but post-discovery of ADHD I finally saw it was 90/10 my fault due to ADHD. Weird, huh? Yes, this ADHD is a one heck of a nasty sneaky disorder for an unknowing married couple. I don't mind admitting having ADHD and taking 90/10 blame. Hey, 10 percent was still her fault... she nagged! ...which sounds like 50% the wife's fault to any man. So, I accept 90% blame now, it's a relief finally knowing why we argued so much, and now I'm hyperfocusing to fix it. I don't want be known as too weak to fight my ADHD, just as if it was cancer or diabetes. ADHD, Cancer, Diabetes... all three kill families on way or another. Having ADHD doesn't make me a bad person. My wife is not a bad person... we were just two loving people that wasted years not knowing what the heck is going on in the other persons head. My wife accepts I have ADHD, but the verbal abuse over the years added up too much, she can't heal now. I wish I could go back in time and slap myself upside the head and tell myself, Dan, you have ADHD... it's okay, a lot of good, smart people do too... just control the bad part of ADHD and shine on the good part of ADHD. I wish all these years I would have kissed, talked equally and helped my wife more often than escaping by burying my head in my laptop night and day working and not seeing the world soon collapsing around me. I really had no idea then but I clearly see it now, a bit too late. Time will tell. Thanks and take care. If your husband is smart like most ADD/ADHD men are, hopefully he'll accept and address ADD/ADHD like a light-bulb going on. I say that as a pun, knowing Thomas Edison, one of America's brightest minds, was said to also have ADD/ADHD. http://borntoexplore.org/edison.htm We're in good company. :-)
Keeping you in my thoughts
Hey, Dan -
Just wanted to send you a note of encouragement. I hope you're still fighting the good fight. Don't give up. Your sort of commitment to working on the ADD and fixing your marriage is rare.
(And, please, send some of those rare vibes in my husband's direction! ;-)
I hope your wife can see what you're trying to do and work with you. Hang in there. I'm keeping you in my prayers.
thank you...
Thank you BreadBaker. It worth fighting the good fight... it's not just about me, while I do love my wife, it's also about our two innocent boys that deserve the best opportinity in life and they too may have ADHD issues they will need advice with and patience with someday. This is a good video, from the NBC Today show: Should you stick it out for the kids?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/13934608#13934608
I wholly agree with the video, I hope we can stick it out. We're both good people, our problems are fixable no matter what it takes, no matter how much time. Thank you for your prayers, there are a lot of good people in the world.
Dan, it was very generous of
Dan, it was very generous of you to even tell this story when you cannot personally gain from having torn it all out like this. I hope you do help someone out there change before their spouse hits that point of no return.
Unfortunately, your story is probably a common one. Often, it was the very fact that the spouse walked out that finally prompted the ADD/ADHD'er to address their issues. What's left on the non-ADHD spouse's side is that when it all negatively affected you, then you elected to do something about it. When the non-ADHD spouse was in pain all of those years, it was unimportant for you to seek out help.
I could show my own ADHD husband your post and it would most likely drive him to tears. Yet, I'm at the point at which I wouldn't even be sure why the tears were coming in the first place. The only reason my husband sought help for his ADHD was because I had told him that I had briefly considered killing us both, because I realized that killing only myself would leave our son to his care - which would surely mean that our son would be dead within a year too.
And I'm in therapy. I'm actually not depressed. My consideration wasn't planned or concrete. It was an expression of the degree of despair I was feeling.
My husband sought help that week. It would do no good, because now I know that the only reason he sought help was because - no matter how intangible the actual plan - in words, his very life was threatened. That's all that will ever stay with me as the reason he sought help. The years I spent lying on the floor bleeding to death were meaningless to him. You can't wait until someone is actually out the door - or theoretically holding a shotgun to your head - until you decide that things are jacked up enough for you now for you to finally seek help in not hurting your spouse any longer. Under such conditions, there will be absolutely no way of convincing the other person that it wasn't the enormous damage now done to you that was really the motivator.
thanks...
Thanks FabTemp, I see what you are saying, but I think there are at least two kinds of ADHD'ers. One that finally discovers their ADHD and want to fix it, and one that just doesn't care. I didn't know I had it until about two month ago now... I was miserable for years too, cried after arguments, confused and thought how my wife would feel if I died unexpectedly (she wouldn't nag me anymore then, I thought). I, like many people, have a slight fear of flying turbulence, but when my wife and I would argue and then I would travel for a business trip, I would smile confidently during the turbulence and say to myself, "come on, take this plane crashing down". I was miserable until I discovered my ADHD. Someone cannot fix what they don't know they have, an unknowing ADHD'ers just thinks it's 50/50 his/her fault and is frustrated just as much as the spouse. That is why ADHD is so sneaky upon the man that doesn't know he has it, he brain truly cannot compute it's 90/10 his fault, he stuck thinking it's still 50/50 and thinks why do I have to be the only one to change? I honestly thought I was the victim too, I worked hard for the family and provided... I guess I just married someone that turned from sweet to a sour nag. It's a terrible cloud. The other type of ADHD'er is someone that doesn't care or fully knows they have ADHD, but just refuse to fix it... they want to be an old dog and are too set in their old ways... those are the people that may need the shotgun approach and are looking out just for themselves. Perhaps, those are the spouses that are truly lost causes and deserve a divorce, but there are a lot of good people with ADHD that don't deserve a divorce, but it was just bad luck and gone undiagnosed to long to prevent a divorce. Again, it's a nasty, sneaky disorder hidden inside of many for years, it is not a disorder we chose to have but we have a choice to address ADHD after it's finally diagnosed. Only then, there are two ways a man with ADHD can go with it.
But, oh, that second type . . .
Dan, I agree, and I think that most of us non-ADD spouses in the forum are dealing with a variation on the second category. From some of the descriptions left by other posters in the forum, it would seem that there are some ADDers who understand that the condition is causing them problems, but that otherwise it's up to everyone around them to adjust, reorganize their lives around them, and quit their complaining.
For the rest of your post, I know that I keep saying this, but "me, too." Or, I should say "him, too," on pretty much everything. I used to think that these coincidences were spooky, but I think that you and my husband just have similar personalities. You're both fundamentally kind, decent, intelligent guys who were caught up in something they didn't understand. The difference, though, is that you're really taking the bull by the horns in terms of your marriage. My husband is too stubborn and proud for that. In order to make this work, he'd have to man up in front of friends and family--he'd have to set the record straight about what really happened instead of publicly blaming me or some vague notion of incompatibility. He's a good guy, but I don't see him doing this. It's sad to see someone throw away a marriage for reasons such as this, but if looking like "the good guy who left the bad wife" or "the good guy who left the bad marriage" is more important to him than me or the marriage itself--and the truth of the matter--then he wasn't ever going to be a great husband, ADD or no, and I deserve better.
I really hope that you can heal your marriage, Dan. I'm praying for you.
men are from mars, women are from venus
Thanks BreadBaker... Yes, I agree... likely your husband and I have similar personalities as men/mars, women/venus and nobody likely on this forum is a monster. I love my wife but really keep at it because I have two young boys in the middle of this, so I'm taking the bull by the horns in terms of the marriage no matter what, since I had my mom and dad in same household when I grew up, they argued too but eventually loved each other enough to keep going to 50 year anniversary, till my dad passed last year. So I believe my kids should have the same I had growing up, two good parents in one household. If we didn't have kids, it may be a different path we may take but we do have kids so why talk hypothetical.... I see the pros/cons and it is worth it for me today, not for my wife at this time (I understand this, since she was the non-ADHD spouse). But my plan is do all I can just for the sake of our kids and if my wife someday truly finds enough love to work with and starts rebuilding with me someday, all the better I pray. At least I know I tried and can look my kids in the eye 25 years from now and tell them, god forbid if they develop the same ADHD marriage issues, to try too.
Wow....
Going thru all of your posts, Dan, is eerie....the similarities are striking. My husband falls into that later category and for years made me feel that I was the problem in the marriage...I was the 90, he was the 10. It took a very long time for me to see the truth. I did lots of reading, internet surfing and talking to others before I realized what was really going on. It also took years for me to get my husband to see a doctor, and when the doctor confirmed that he likely had ADHD, my husband was still in denial...hearing what he only wanted to hear. That still continues. Frustrated doesn't even begin to cover what I'm feeling. I reached a point a few years ago where instead of begging him to stay when he threatened to walk out, I'm holding the door wide open. After breast cancer, 21 years of an autoimmune disease and kids with disabilities of their own, I need his untreated ADHD like a hole in the head. I'm exhausted and am putting myself first. It was a long time coming for me, but I'm very proud of myself for taking the bull by the horns, so to speak, and realizing that I cannot save my husband or my marriage if he doesn't want to "own" his health problem and treat it.
He refuses to talk about anything of critical importance....conversations stay focused on household chores and other mundane matters. I don't know how anyone...ADHD or not....can continue to avoid meaningful conversations with as much skill as he can. He's the master. His father passed away two weeks ago and my husband never cried, showed any sadness or even talked about it much. It's almost like his father never existed at all. It's not only sad, but kind of creepy. Dan, I know you don't know me or my husband, but what do you think that's about?? Is it that emotional distance is safer, or is it that the emotion just doesn't exist at all? My husband seems so disconnected from human feelings that it spooks me. The only emotion he easily expresses is anger and impatience...he's got those down pat. I actually used to be afraid of him...not because he would or did physically abuse me...but because his contempt and disgust made me feel about as big as a bug. That's gone now, but the memories remain.
Somehow, the scars on my body from my own physical battles are not nearly as painful as the scars on my heart. They might be invisible, but oh do they hurt. :(
Wow.........
It is eerie how the similarities are striking. My husband had the same thinking on who's fault it was for all of our problems. It wasn't until his diagnosis almost three years ago that he realized that most of our problems were because of him. I believe he still has a big problem accepting it and refuses to begin to do the hard work necessary to make life better for himself. I keep hoping someday he will get there.
My husband can't talk about anything of critical importance either. My husband is great at avoiding conversations he knows need to be handled.
Funny you mention the fact that your husband never showed any sadness or cried when his father died. My husband didn't either. Yet, when one of our animals has died, he cries like a baby???? He also cries if someone elses animal dies, even when he doesn't really know the people or the animal very well. Bizarre!!!!!
I used to be afraid of my husband too when he would express anger and impatience but as I grew older I became bolder and finally stood up to him during these outbursts and I think it actually took him by surprise that I was no longer going to take the heat. We were then able to talk about his anger and what effect it had on me and other people he would get angry at. Luckily, his counselor worked on this problem and my husband has improved tremendously. Now, if we can only make some progress in many of the other areas.......
I'm at the same point in my relationship in that my husband is fully aware that our door is wide open, too. Any talk of walking out is met with "there's the door". It is just sad that this crazy disorder has brought our lives to this point.
emotion - or lack thereof
My husband doesn't talk about anything of importance either. Conversations are always about "safe" things - what needs to get done today, kids' schedules, dog, etc. If I even bring up anything that might involve emotion, I watch his eyes glaze over.
I've asked him about this and his reply was that he's applying for jobs and not getting any responses so had to shut himself off emotionally. I told him that I do understand the need to do that while job searching, but I'm not a job, I'm not an application, I'm his wife, and I need some emotion from him. All the while, his eyes glazed over again and he just stared out into space, looking blank. It's very frustrating and painful to give yourself emotionally to someone and not get anything (emotionally) in return.
"Wow" from me as well
jgf and newfdogswife, it really is amazing how similar our husbands are! I used to go crazy trying to get my husband to think of anything more important than breakfast. And sometimes even that was a stretch. Poor guy. He'd look like his brain was going to explode when I would try to discuss housework or finances with him.
My husband interpreted his reluctance to deal with any of these things as proof that he didn't love me and we shouldn't be married. I think that's why he left. I've been devastated, and am still struggling with what the therapist, friends, family, other ADD sufferers, and other non-ADD spouses have been telling me: It wasn't me, it was his ADD, and that our marriage didn't stand a chance without diagnosis, treatment, and his taking responsibility for himself.
I miss and mourn the husband and the marriage that should have been. I wish I weren't being driven to divorce him in order to live.
emotion....the lost art of showing you care.
I think just recently, when my wife let did I start to really explore my emotions. I cried briefly when my father died in May, but when i was there with my mom and family, I didnt cry just felt bad......it was hard to describe. When my wife left me, I cried, and sobbed and felt like my word was over...I just experienced the birth of my son in November, and my daughter is 3, and one of the joys in my life. My wife and her family who visited often said I never smiled, showed any emotion, just sat there like a bump on the log...grumpy so to speak. The glazing over, I bet that was part of it as well. Over the last few weeks, I have cried, laughed, been angry (my psychologist called my wife and messages were mixed, or not what either one told me earlier...)...I am frustrated and hurt and the emotions are flying around me now, more then they ever have. I got to spend a day with my family after christmas...and even then my wife said I have not changed, I have not gotten better, I still did not smile, did not laugh, or have a good time. I was so happy to see them....I get all flustered...and its hard to take whats in my heart........and transfer it so others can feel it, see it, experience it..........I know growing up in a family that did not show alot of emotion or touchy feely things was a part of who I am, but I do feel joy, saddness, happiness, being angry..the whole 9yds...but havent a clue sometimes I dont show it. My intentions are always good, but either come out bad or dont come out at all...........I really like this posting..and the comments that have been made on it. Am i scared now......i sure am............but I have to start somewhere....just hope its not too late. My wife wants a normal life......I hope I can at least meet her somewhere down this direction :)
Keep up the great posts...
Ryan
not too late
Yes, I believe that our parents or our environment that we all grew up in, have a huge impact on our marriages. ADHD is the root, and how we’re raised compounds it. ADHD’ers hyper-focus. If we were raised and learned as children to do something or not do something, we hyper-work as ADHD adults and therefore hyper-focus to do or not do something. Someday, I hope your wife will see this. You can change, smart people are able to change when they discover their ADHD is hurting a family. My wife doesn’t see this, she doesn't even understand ADD or ADHD, she doesn't care to. Plus perhaps she was raised to be very unforgiving. The other day, she talked to my mom, and she said "Dan has an illness". OMG, that shows she still doesn't get ADD, my wife calling ADD an illness is very short sighted and an insult to our 2 children, who also now been diagnosed with ADD. ADD and ADHD is not an illness, people with ADHD (my kids and me) are not ill, we're are not sick. They are healthy, bright, good kids. It's a disorder, with definition means "lack of order or regular arrangement" ... ADD is something not typical. Again, perhaps not her fault, but something she learned as a child to be unforgiving. Our environment as a pre-adult, is so significant in our adulthood. Having the smarts to undo what we learned as a child separates success from failure and I believe we can do succeed. It's not easy, but focusing on something important, like your love for your family and your marriage or just doing it for yourself, will keep you on track to make your changes in yourself, permanent.
thanks for writing this
Dan, your contribution is so good that I am going to print this thread for my defiant SO
thank you
Thank you. Just you being on this Web site, says a lot about your character. Lots of people and families in this world are affected by ADD/ADHD and it seems the best way to find peace is to talk openly and learn more about it. People can choose to run from it or let it run them... I choose to face it head on. One of my favorites: God give me the strength to change the things I can, the patience and serenity to accept the things which I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference. Best of luck to you.
Thanks so much Dan
Dan,
I wanted to thank you so much for this post and all the other comments you have posted over the last few weeks. It has opened my eyes and made me realize that no matter how much my ex-husband blamed me, a big part of our problem was his unknown ADHD.
Divorce is the consequence of ADHD in a marriage left undetected for years.
This statement is so true in my case. I was married to my husband for 7 years before things fell apart. When our 2nd child was only 2 months old he seemed to go off the deep end. He said he felt trapped like I was trying to box him in. Really what I wanted was for him to be responsible and pay more attention to his family. He is a bona fide workaholic. He put work above all else in his life even his family. I spent much of the marriage angry and frustrated. After several angry tantrums displayed early on by him in the marriage over things that were really small, I learned to just keep my mouth shut. This caused me to act in passive-agressive ways to show him my anger and frustration because again, I knew that any attempt to communicate with him in an adult manner would start World War 3. My behavior towards him to show my anger was the silent treatment. It worked but I realize now it contributed to the break-down of communication in the marriage. He moved out when our youngest was only 6 months old all the while blaming me for his reasons for wanting to leave. Later I discovered an affair. He at no time appeared to want to return. Looking back I think he just did not want the responsibility of a family nor could he handle it. He wanted to basically be free to work all the time and revert to acting like a teenage boy.
I think of Adult ADHD as a phantom disease because it can be hard to even know it is there. I dated my husband almost 8 years before we got married and then was married to him 7 years before he left. He was not hyperactive but basically was a workaholic and seemed to always be on the go. Therefore I never knew there was an issue. I just thought he did not care and liked to work. Knowing now the symtoms of ADHD there were so many signs that this was going on (Always on the go, always losing things, disorganized, bad with finances, impulsive, distracted, quick temper etc...) I think he got bored with the marriage way before I even realized it. The reality of married life was not half as much fun as the fantasy he had in his mind of what marriage and family was supposed to be like. It was not until this past Spring (2 years post separation) when my 7 year old daughter was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD, that he and I both realized that he had ADHD as well. He realized he had struggled with it his whole life. So just like you, it went undetected and I realize it was a huge factor in the demise of our marriage. It was the start of a healing for me. I was able to really stop blaming myself for everything and start to realize that there was an undetected "disease" in our marriage. I still have a way to go in order to heal all the way and to get my self esteem in a good place but so many questions have been answered and so so much makes sense now that did not make sense over the life of the marriage.
Nobody with ADHD realizes what really matters in life, until they don't have it anymore. They need a shock wakeup call, like separation/divorce which I'm living now.
I found these statements to be both enlightening and interesting. My Ex seems to have moved on with his life like nothing ever happened. He has basically lost his wife and 2 beautiful daughters and he seems un-fazed. He has moved his new girlfriend into our old family home. The only home my daughters ever knew. They now have to visit him there, with another woman living there. It is totally against how he was raised (in a strong christian home) and what I thought he believed. He seems to care less how his actions are affecting his children, family or me. Do you really think he realizes what matters in life now that he does not have it anymore? He had both separation and divorce and he appears to be falling further and further off the moral compass. He appears to not be remorseful in the least about what he has done or lost. I would like your insight into what he might be thinking or why he is doing the things he is doing? I saw in one of your other posts that not all ADHD Spouses are cheaters and that some are just bad apples. So would you say that infidelity is more based on bad character and morals than something caused by impulsiveness and the need for constant stimulation?
Like myself, perhaps some men need to be figuratively slapped upside the head before they finally get it.
I agree that my Ex probably does need to be slapped upside the head. I go back and forth between anger for him and empathy for him. He knows now that he has ADHD and yet he is doing nothing to treat it. He told me that he thinks it benefits him because he can get alot more done than the average person. What he does not realize is that his inability to focus is causing him to miss out on the beautiful things in life because he can not calm his brain long enough to pay attention to them. His children, his family, a beautiful sunset, a walk in the woods enjoying the sounds of nature, reading a good book and so many more things too numerous to list. He is missing "life" and that is so sad to me.
Dan I respect you so much for your honesty. It is so good to hear from a person with ADHD(especially a man) and that you do get it and you do want to try to change. Just the acknowledgement that you need to make changes is a huge step. Don't give up with your situation. You never know how God can turn things around. He is almighty and all powerful and he can work miracles. Just continue to pray.
I found the Lyrics to the song the Reason and I think they are really deep. Just the fact that you would relate those words to yourself and your situation is a huge step and a beautiful thing. Here are the words for those that have never heard the song before:
I'm not a perfect person
There's many things I wish I didn't do
But I continue learning
I never meant to do those things to you
And so I have to say before I go
That I just want you to know
I've found a reason for me
To change who I used to be
A reason to start over new
and the reason is you
I'm sorry that I hurt you
It's something I must live with every day
And all the pain I put you through
I wish that I could take it all away
And be the one who catches all your tears
That's why I need you to hear
I've found a reason for me
To change who I used to be
A reason to start over new
and the reason is you [x4]
I'm not a perfect person
I never meant to do those things to you
And so I have to say before I go
That I just want you to know
I've found a reason for me
To change who I used to be
A reason to start over new
and the reason is you
I've found a reason to show
A side of me you didn't know
A reason for all that I do
And the reason is you
Thanks Dan
thank you.
Thank you for your comments, Ann2222. Like I believe of everyone posting here, just being on this Web site, says a lot about your character. I don't know your ex husband entire history, but I do know that ADHD is a very powerful and blinding disorder upon the person having it and the spouse/family it affects. Hence this very site exists for a reason, correct? ADHDmarriage.com. ADHD may have something to do with his behavior, but also all men should have hearts. If he's showing little or no heart, it's has to be something other than ADHD. Thanks for posting those words from the song, it means a lot. ADHD'er are not all bad traits, we usually do have big hearts when it's not clouded and we all have non-ADHD issues too... I still don't know why, but ever since a young teen, I had tears at every wedding I've ever attended, it's embarrassing.
These are good traits of ADD/ADHD found from http://www.additudemag.com/ We don't lose these good traits but the BAD traits eventually override or hide the GOOD in a ADD/ADHD marriage. I think I have about 22 of the 24, but that doesn't matter much in my marriage, my wife considers them a hindrance now.
1. Insomnia makes for more time to stay up and surf the net.
2. The drive of HYPERFOCUS.
3. Resiliency.
4. A sparkling PERSONALITY.
5. Generosity with money, time, and resources.
6. INGENUITY.
7. A strong sense of what is FAIR.
8. Willingness to take a RISK.
9. Making far-reaching analogies that no one else understands.
10. SPONTANEITY.
11. Possessing the mind of a Pentium—with only 2 MBs of RAM.
12. Pleasant and constant surprises due to finding clothing (or money or spouses) you had forgotten about.
13. Being FUNNY.
14. Being the last of the ROMANTICS.
15. Being a good conversationalist.
16. An innately better understanding of intuitive technologies, such as computers or PDAs.
17. Honestly believing that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
18. Rarely being satisfied with the status quo.
19. Compassion.
20. Persistence.
21. Joining the ranks of artists, musicians, entrepreneurs, and other creative types.
22. Always being there to provide a different PERSPECTIVE.
23. Willingness to fight for what you believe in.
24. Excellence in MOTIVATING OTHERS.
Hope a few spouses can remember back when these traits mattered and at least can recall some good memories. Moving forward, I wish the best of luck to all families, and hope many more good memories can still be made.
anything to excess can be bad
Dan, I'm afraid that I have to differ with you somewhat regarding this list of traits. I agree that these are traits typically displayed by people with ADD/ADHD, but I don't agree that they are intrinsically good -- just like a little candy is a great enjoyment, too much is a bad thing. A certain amount of hyperfocus can be good -- too much can be a problem. A certain amount of willingness to take risk can be good -- too much can be extremely dangerous. I think a fair amount of the conflict between partners with ADD and partners without ADD is the differences in where they draw the line between "enough" and "too much" of these traits. In my experience, the partner with ADD often doesn't recognize that "too much" is even possible.
yes, I agree Arwen, things in moderation are good
Yes, I agree, everything should be kept in check. A glass of wine or spirits for centuries is acceptable, too much frequency is alcoholism. Food is a necessity to sustain life, but too much is obesity and health problems (unless you are Michael Phelps, with a 12,000 calorie per day diet... sorry, one of the traits had to kick in there.)
What matters... are these traits kept in check pre or post-discovery of ADHD? Pre-ADHD discovery, someone may have no idea they are rubbing someone the wrong way, overtaking a conversation, focusing too much, etc... the traits may therefore not be kept in check but rather cause new or increased conflict. Post-discovery of ADHD, it's up to the person having ADHD to say to him/herself... I better slowdown and really think about this. It doesn't make that person right or wrong, it just makes them think first, which is always important for everyone to do. I like the baseball saying, "Swing hard in case you hit it"... that is what many ADHD people believe and do. And I also believe the Yogi Berra quote, "You can't think and hit at the same time." Thinking first brings success, success without thinking is just luck or God given. Now, everytime my ADHD may pop-up its head too often, at least now I know what to look for and can think and act to moderate it.
As the non ADHD spouse, who's
As the non ADHD spouse, who's been living with a just diagnosed parter for 7 years, I felt compelled to add a few things to these statements, just to show that while they can be positives, living with them long term can turn them into a negative.
1. Insomnia makes for more time to stay up and surf the net. <- Leaving a partner alone while they wonder why you don't want to come to bed with her/him
2. The drive of HYPERFOCUS. <- And ignoring the important things, like family or finances.
3. Resiliency. <- Which is so strong it can often come across as not caring
5. Generosity with money, time, and resources. <- That are usually better spent elsewhere. For example, treating friends to dinner when the phones have been cut off
7. A strong sense of what is FAIR. <- Fair for you. Not for every one else.
8. Willingness to take a RISK. <- With financial stability, safety and relationships. Or stupid risks that you'd expect a teenager or young adult to make.
9. Making far-reaching analogies that no one else understands. <- Really, what's the point if nobody understands you.
17. Honestly believing that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. <- Despite realistic evidence to the contary.
18. Rarely being satisfied with the status quo. <- Even if everything is running smoothly and doesn't need to be changed.
20. Persistence. <- Sometimes you need to know when to give up
21. Joining the ranks of artists, musicians, entrepreneurs, and other creative types. <- There's no value in this if nothing comes of it
22. Always being there to provide a different PERSPECTIVE. <- While totally ignoring the perspective of others
23. Willingness to fight for what you believe in. <- While running down what others believe in
24. Excellence in MOTIVATING OTHERS. <- Whether they want to be or not.
reply to Astrea
Brilliant post Astrea! Like many ADHD characteristics, they are great in a casual acquaintance type of relationship, but cause so many problems when you are in a life long interdependent relationship like marriage.
I'm sorry to read this, Astrea
Hello Astrea:
Sorry to read your bitterness, Astrea, but I can understand. Yes, I think everyone here on this Web site already understands the negatives of ADHD... hence why they are here on this Web site in the first place. If your ADHD spouse has not yet been to this site, try to get him/her here. Of all the posts on this entire site, 90% of them, especially under this category, "Anger, Frustration & ADHD", are negative. Negativity breeds negativity, plus it's easier to bring down than to build up (the Twin Towers can be demolished in hours, which took years to construct). I understand the reason for bitterness, some can understand more than others, some people can forgive more than others too. I also understand too much of any good thing, is bad too. The 24 points listed, of course, could all be negative to a certain degree... It doesn't take brilliance, since I could also easily find negatives in the 10 "good items" that you omitted. So, are they really good? It's all a matter of perspective and again, all of us on this Web site already have seen the negative perspectives from 90% of the posts. I'm sorry the list of 24 good ADHD traits offended you. The list is intended to show someone diagnosed with ADHD, this is what they have, now make sound choices to either build up things or let it destroy you and people around you. Again, people on this site already know ADHD can easily destroy, hence why they are here. It's using ADHD to build up... that is the hard part. Nuclear energy can be dangerous and could destroy so much, but when used properly nuclear energy has many great advantages for the world. Does man-kind ban all nuclear energy? Or does man-kind understand it more and harness it for good? The debate could go on forever, but I tend to always move forward, while learning from the mistakes of the past. Ten years from now, ADHD will be better understood by all. God, I hope so, as my children have ADHD and I don't want them living my same mistakes of not knowing or ridiculed or made fun-of, or looked down upon for having been born with ADHD. I just want them to benefit and move onward from their strengths or weaknesses that God and their parents gave them. I love my dear kids so much, they must not look at ADHD as a negative only. I must teach them thoughout their lives to control the negatives that ADHD brings, and focus on the 24 positives in moderation for the benefit of all, especially for their future spouse and for a happy marriage.
You are one of the already 90% of the stories proving ADHD can destroy. I hope people can add more stories of how ADHD can build, which is more challenging to do. I'm feel bad for you and understand you, as you never signed up for that, you got the bad deal. To forgive, I hope someday you can understand more about ADHD, even though to truly understand it, is to have ADHD yourself or study both sides of the argument for years. My wife filed for divorce the very month I was finally diagnosed. I realized it will take years for her to finally understand and forgive; it's unfortunate, but I accept that. Much like understanding alcoholism or addiction, I bet the best counselors for alcoholism and drug addicts are former alcoholics/addicts, only they truly understand that person's mind (perhaps with the exception of a PHD in Psychology, who spent years talking with them). My wife is not an expert in ADHD, but she wasn't supposed to be... this is not her fault, she didn't sign up for this either, I feel bad for what all happened... divorce is sad for me, but it's forgiven. ADHD is a terrible, sneaky "marriage disease", unfair and nasty to all involved in the marriage. All must be understood, then forgiven someday, especially when children involved. In arguments, my wife has called me "evil". Uncontrolled ADHD is evil, uncontrolled nuclear energy is evil, anything not understood by those negatively affected by something is evil. I am in pain, but I'm not evil, nor is my wife, nor is anyone I know. My parents raised me better than to be evil or hang around evil people. Therefore simply... "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." That applies to everyone within an ADHD Marriage.
Please seek professional help and therapy with someone with years of working with clients with ADHD, read ADHD books, read posts and blogs of both ADHD and non-ADHD people, get spiritual help... do whatever you can... when you are ready to start healing. You might not be ready now, but someday for a happy life, you need to get help for yourself of the trauma you've gone thru. Right now you are may be bitter and just want revenge, that is understood and forgiveable, but you must not let that destroy you, bitterness will eat you alive if you let it. All good people want peace, to have peace is to forgive, and to forgive is to understand. Understand ADHD first, you will then forgive someday, then you will have Peace! Peace be with you.
“NO PEACE WITHOUT JUSTICE, NO JUSTICE WITHOUT FORGIVENESS”
- Pope John Paul II, the Vatican, December 8, 2001
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20011211_xxxv-world-day-for-peace_en.html
Dan, Your post has a lot of
Dan,
Your post has a lot of good insight when you point out how poisonous negativity can be. You were able to really articulate a point for me when it comes to looking at every ADHD trait as negative and the overall damage that can do (I strugle with finding the positives with ADHD because I was not able to make my partnership work). I really appreciate that.
I will encourage you however to understand the nonADHD partners perspective as well. You encourage Astrea to learn all she can about ADHD so she may begin the forgiveness process but, from what I hear, it seems as if you are overlooking the nonADHD aspect. Whereas is may be correct she is bitter (I am not speaking for you Astrea) you assume that she is not doing all she can to understand ADHD. What may come across to you as bitter may simply be complete and utter exhaustion from her ADHD spouse and their marriage.
You correctly point out that unless one is an alcoholic or drug addict then how can one possibly understand that state of mind. But is it not also true that when someone starts "fixing" their "disease" that has hurt their loved ones for many years, it takes many years for the healing process of the loved ones to be complete?
Just as we do not know what occurs in an ADHD brain, you (and other ADHDers) unfortunately don't fully see the pain your actions caused. Many times it is not easy to get over, at all. I left my ADHD fiance in July and where am I on this January afternoon? On this website because I still need to understand how someone as pure hearted and loving as my ex can put me through such torment and hell. Because as a nonADHDer, I simply cannot understand how I don't even miss him a little bit when I loved him so much. I was that exhausted and hurt by his ADHD (or better yet by his lack of really addressing the harm he was causing us).
Dan I really like your insight and hope you keep sharing, however I implore you from time to time to focus on the negative aspects, just a little bit, so you can empathize with our and your (ex?) wife's situation. I implore you to understand that damage has been done and unless that damage is addressed, then the healing process cannot begin. I am not asking you to harp on this. I am just simply saying that you cannot understand our viewpoint until you understand that because of the way our brains work, we can remember and feel all past pain. We are not able to just forget about it.
It is not rare for the ADHD spouse to want a fresh start and clean slate after their diagnosis; to want endless recognition for working on the negative aspects that ADHD can bring to a marriage. I would say (pretty confidently) that one of the biggest frustrations of the nonADHD spouses here is that we almost never get recognition from our spouse for all our effort and hard work in holding everything together before, during and after diagnosis.
well said -- great post
Brooks, I think you have perfectly expressed something that many of us non-ADDers have been trying to communicate about recognition of damage and the non-ADDers inability to forget it. Thank you!!!
I have forgiven my husband for the torment he put me through for so many years but I will never be able to forget it, they have left permanent scars on my soul. I know he did not mean to hurt me, but it doesn't change the fact that he did. Even though it's not as bad that he did it through negligence instead of malice, the fact that he failed to work to correct the negligence for 15 years despite being routinely apprised of it is a debt he owes for. During those 15 years, he used me up and didn't think even once about it.
But -- it's not a debt that I will ever demand payment for -- when we ended our separation, I agreed to wipe the slate clean because I could see that it would not happen again. Please note that my husband did *not* have any inherent *right* to *expect* a clean slate. My agreement was something I chose to give -- but I would not have, if he had not *shown* me that his change in his treatment of me was based in a new permanent realistic understanding and acceptance of his responsibilities towards me. His demonstration of this change *to my satisfaction* made me feel it was worth the risk to try one more last time to make our marriage work. Not every non-ADD spouse sees themselves in that kind of situation, or wants to do that, and that's also perfectly fair and reasonable.
Brilliant, Brooks30 and Arwen
Thanks so much. You said it better than I ever could.
The only problem is, I'm still waiting to be paid back. When do I get to own a house again? When do I get to drive a car made in this millenium? When will my medical needs be addressed? (We both make sure HIS are met so he can work, when does it get to be my turn?)
I love him, and we never separated, but the feeling that "this is not what I signed up for" is so strong. When does that end?
None of us will have that
None of us will have that answer for you Sueann.
Either you accept and surrender to your marriage (with surrender meaning give in wholly to the partnership, not the hardships - those should always be worked on) or you move on.
You have been so strong and I am sure it has been a difficult road indeed. If I could hug you I would.
Stay strong dear .
To be perfectly blunt,
I'm extremely offended by your claims that I am bitter, destroyed by ADHD, offended by the list and in need of professional help. My post was not bitter, I did not say at any point that the list offended me and you do not know anything about me and are in no position to judge whether I am 'destroyed by ADHD' or in need of therapy.
Dan, This is exactly what I
Dan,
This is exactly what I was talking about...
Posting again after calming down
While I definitely have my bitter moments Brooks, I tend to have them alone once my son is asleep or in the company of a friend I would be lost without. If I don't vent, it only gets worse. Dan, I was simply pointing out that every positive can have a negative depending on your perspective. A lot of these traits were things that attracted me to my fiancee when we first met, however living with them long term has taken nearly all of the thrill out of them.
As Brooke stated and has happened to many other non-ADHD, I am completely exhausted emotionally & have very little left to give to my relationship. I've watched hopes and dreams disappear because of the behaviour of the person I thought was my life partner and while I do understand that a lot of that is the ADHD, that does not mean I cannot be upset or angry about it or that having ADHD means he can blame it for all his actions over the last 7 years. Currently we're living apart - which has very little to do with state of our relationship.
Brooks has said it all a lot better than I can at the moment - and more tactfully too!
I tried, but no good.
Once again, I try to be positive and helpful, but I still get bitten in the rear. Did it ever cross one's mind it may hurt someone going thru a divorce and piecing his children's and his own life back together, all because of his own ADHD, when taking his list of "good positive traits" and throwing them back in his face as more negatives? Negatives, I can't get away from them. I thought I understood, but I was wrong, I'm wrong a lot, after all I'm a man and I have ADHD. Let's remember, we are all self-serving SOB's. Sorry, only men with ADHD should get professional help, their spouses will be fine. I'll leave the suggesting to the professionals, it's true, I don't know what I'm talking about.
Many of us non-ADDers DO see professionals
Dan, I think you need to remember that some of the spouses on this forum have gone through a horrific time with their ADD spouses, me included. We're not trying to make *you* out to be the baddie. There are many voices on this list who do *not* have cooperative, enlightened spouses, and they're speaking out of immense pain and frustration. Really, for them, those "postives"--well, aren't, and there is overwhelming evidence in their relationships to back that up (again, mine included). That doesn't mean that they're not positives for *you*. But it does mean that if you post them, it's more than likely that there are a bunch of people who will *not* agree with you, and they have every right not to agree after what they've experienced.
It seems as though many (the majority?) of the non-ADD spouses on this forum *have* sought professional counseling on their own. For my part, after being told I was a "bad" and "abusive" person by my severely ADD husband, and then being abandoned by him, I was terrified that I WAS all of the things he said I was. I thought *I* was the one who couldn't see the damage I was doing. I went back into regular therapy, and it took quite a few sessions for my therapist to convince me that I wasn't the problem, and that I wasn't remotely like what he said I was. I should note that I have a therapist who pulls no punches with me, and I'm not the kind of person who gives her therapist, shall we say, "creative" answers, or who only goes to someone who tells them what they want to hear (and there are therapists out there who are more than happy to take your money and do just that, to keep you coming back). It took *months* for her to convince me--or remind me, really, that I was a good person, and a good wife. I had had *that much* damage hurled my way by my husband. But I will admit that I do have a co-dependency problem, and that I sometimes reacted badly to my husband's issues. I've been told I did a bunch of things "wrong," just like any person in even a "normal" marriage, but nothing that would take down a marriage like my husband's ADD.
If you don't mind my saying so, I think I know one reason why sometimes on the list you rile up some of the members without meaning to. A *huge* issue for long-suffering non-ADD spouses is the concept of reparation. Many of us (again, me too) have had our careers, families, health, peace of mind, financial security, and whole years of our lives destroyed by our ADD spouses. I know that I wouldn't even consider taking back my husband, let alone actually take him back, unless he made some *major* amends in my direction first, because the balance has been so badly thrown off in our marriage. After years of getting maybe 10% of what I needed to live and thrive, to my husband's 90%, and being treated as though he was the one true center of the universe and I was nothing, starting over at 50%-50% would not cut it--there's too much of a deficit. (I have to applaud Arwen for doing essentially that, BTW, if I read one of her recent posts correctly. Maybe I'm just not "there" yet, but I couldn't do that myself.)
IT TAKES BALANCE
and the right attitude. Our hearts should be willing to listen and learn from one another. It was the charming, comical, sparkling personality that attracted me to my ADDman, then the extremes and contradictions, the demands and accusations got in the mix. It all gets so confusing! I keep looking for balance, a level playing field to help me get to the heart of the matter and instead I'm caught up in an emotional flurry and nothing is resolved.
All the positives in my ADDman are not balanced out with calm responsibility. The struggles are not met with sound, well thought out decisions but, knee jerk reactions. I want my life to be orderly and on course. I want at least some sense of security, a future, a hope. I have no sense of that when the positive parts are met with extremes and contradictions. I want to be able to enjoy all those positives without feeling like the rest of my life is sinking and I can't do anything about it... For me, when I know things are on course, then I know I can enjoy the ride. When I know things are off course, I can't relax. I was raised to take care of what needs to be taken care of first. Fun came after that. My career, family, peace of mind, financial security and many years of my life lie near ruin by the charming, comical, sparkling personality I thought I could love forever...
I thought he was happy because his life was in order. I thought that together we could do what ever we set out to do, we'd learn, grow, build our life together. Things aren't what I thought they would be, not at all. Please keep balance in mind... I'm so tired of trying to figure things out for so long, I don't want to demand, accuse, berate... I want to give up. My ADDman doesn't care to learn, he's having too much fun...
reply to Clarity
Boy, I'm right there with you. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Some Thoughts about Disrespect
I have been reading this thread with interest. It is now about two months and a half, since my ADD-EX-SO left, and I spent so many hours attempting to figure out the deeper level of the dynamics.
The keyword seems to be DISRESPECT. I wonder, if this is only my own experience. Maybe some of you, who felt devastated and burned-out were also suffering from sensing that deep all-disrupting disrespect.
Every person with at least average intelligence can learn theoretically, how to handle a car, how to maintain a car technically, and the trafic rules. That same person can just as well learn theorectically how to treat another person as an equal, how to communicate, how to be decent.
Just as people can know, when they need to fill in oil or when they have run through a red stop light, they also can know, when their behaviour with a SO is not matching their theoretical knowledge.
That is, where the analogy ends. There is a question of the motivation. People maintain a car, because they value it, because they know that else it breaks down. The respect the trafic rules, because the value their own life.
Only people, who value their SO as an equal partner are motivated to invest time and effort in the maintenance of the relationship. As soon as they take the SO for granted as a utility, that is not worth the effort of maintenance, then comes disrespect and depreciation.
My Ex-SO only seemed to treat and respect me as an equal, as long as we were exchanging emails and talking on the telephone. For reasons that I still am only speculating about, it radically changed from the time of our meeting in person.
It was his underlying disrespect, that caused most of my pain. Most probably, he has not even a clue, that his behaviour was so full of disrespect. I wonder if he ever in his life has respected someone, especially respected a woman.
1. When two persons have a conflict, and they first make sure, that they both share all the divergent information causing conflicting opinions, and then they talk about it long enough, they can usually find a solution, that is rationally convincing to both.
My Ex-SO assumed automatically, that nothing I had to contribute, was valuable enough to hear and to consider. He refused to listen to me, he interrupted me, he jumped to conclusions. His disrespect impeded to ever solve any conflict.
2. Every body can loose their temper or cause or trigger damage to others. People with respect and empathy feel liable, they are aware of the consequences of their actions, they apologize or make amends. People with respect, lacking empathy do the same, when they get feedback about their behaviour.
My Ex-SO disrespected me so much, that he never apologized with full sincerity, he never made amends. Instead of feeling liable, in his opinion, I was so worthless, that I deserved, what he did. I was as worthless as his treatment.
3. When people are puzzled by a respected person's temporarily incomprehensible behaviour, they assume that there is a rational explanation, and they ask for it. When my Ex-SO did not understand something, his disrespect made him automatically jump to the conclusion, that there was something dysfunctional, unbalanced, wrong with me.
4. When people want a respected person accept some improbable claim, they honor that person with giving evidence and rational reason, until the other is convinced. With disrespect, he demanded me to accept anything he said as true, my demands for evidence got me his rage.
5. Commitment, no matter if legal marriage or otherwise, means accepting obligations on a mutual basis. With respect for an equal partner, one is bound as much as one expects the other to feel bound.
With disrespect, my Ex-SO did not feel bound to me by any moral obligations, when he felt the wish to dump me, he just did it.
6. When decent people respect others, they feel inclined to base the interaction on a fair balance of giving and taking. With disrespect, my Ex-SO wanted all the benefits for himself, I was not worthy enough for him to give me as much as he got out of me.
Would my Ex-SO have respected me, accepted my support, I could have been strong and capable enough to cope with all other symptoms of his ADD. But his disrespect devastated me. Respect or disrespect make no difference concerning an ADD-person's having troubles to cope with some aspects of life. But it makes a great difference, if two people cooperate to make the best based on mutual respect, or if one acts ruthlessly by his own drives, making the other suffer for it.
There is an instinct in people's brain, that makes people distinguish between in-group and out-group. In the extreme, the same behaviour that is punished towards in-group members is expected towards out-group members. I am wondering sometimes, if in my Ex-SO, and maybe in other ADD-men too, the in-group just consists of one person, himself, and everybody else is outgroup. The dichotomy of respect and disrespect as in my examples is similar to the differences in how people treat members of the in-group compared with the out-group.
Could it be, that we Non-ADD-partners sense the disrespect, while the ADD-men have no clue, what it would be to respect us?
Dan, you have gone a long way of insight, more than many men with ADD might ever go. But what about the question of respect? Did you disrespect your wife in the past as I have been disrespected? Has your change of attitude resulted in your fully respecting your wife now as an equal or are you just missing the benefits of having your intact family around you?
you may want to rethink
Crossroads, you said in your post:
Every person with at least average intelligence can learn theoretically, how to handle a car, how to maintain a car technically, and the trafic rules. That same person can just as well learn theorectically how to treat another person as an equal, how to communicate, how to be decent.
I used to think this myself. But now I cannot agree with you. My husband and I spent a great deal of time and effort exploring this very question. I couldn't understand how he could apparently master a skill set at work but be unable to apply that same skill set at home. In our case, the skill set was even closer to being the "same" as in your example: at work he would listen, he would not interrupt, he would treat his colleagues as equals -- but at home he couldn't do those things.
After years of working on this problem, we came to realize that even though the skill set might apply in both places, *the contexts were vastly different in my husband's mind*. To him, interpersonal interactions among people in general were a mysterious dark swamp with no rules, no consistency, and no guidelights. The reason he felt this way was because with the memory problems his ADD caused, he couldn't remember enough about previous interpersonal experiences to create any kind of structured context in his mind in which to apply the skills. Work, on the other hand, had a small number of simple rules for interacting with colleagues, and another small number of simple rules for interacting with bosses. That much he could remember.
So, it wasn't a question of intelligence. It wasn't a question of motivation. It was a question of limitations in the learning process. Interpersonal interactions outside of work were just too complicated for him to wrap his brain around. He could *not* learn how to treat people respectfully "just as well" as he could learn other things. Yes, he could learn -- but it was much much much harder for him than most other things he tried to do.
Over time, we have worked together to create a very small set of additional "rules", beyond those he applies at work, to be used in his interactions with people outside of work. It was very difficult for him at first to stretch his memory capabilities to handle this greater degree of complexity, but with (a LOT of) practice it became do-able.
From my experience, I suspect that many people witih ADD have this kind of problem. So, please don't assume that the ability to master some particular set of skills has *anything* to do with mastering another, when it comes to folks with ADD -- it's not necessarily true.
Incidentally, I also have to take issue with the basic validity of your statements:
Every person with at least average intelligence can learn theoretically, how to handle a car, how to maintain a car technically, and the trafic rules.
and
... people can know, when they need to fill in oil or when they have run through a red stop light ...
Actually, these exact things are skills that any number of people with ADD struggle with. My husband completely ruined the engine of one of our cars by not being able to remember to put oil in, and I don't know how many tickets he got for running red lights and stop signs. My husband's brother, an exceptionally smart person, doesn't drive because he has so much difficulty with these skills. Again, mastering the skill has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with the limitations that ADD can cause in brain processing, and the degree of complexity of the tasks and environment.
So, you may want to rethink your hypothesis . . .
Great question, about respect...
Great question, Crossroads...
"Dan, you have gone a long way of insight, more than many men with ADD might ever go. But what about the question of respect? Did you disrespect your wife in the past as I have been disrespected? Has your change of attitude resulted in your fully respecting your wife now as an equal or are you just missing the benefits of having your intact family around you? "
Answer:
Yes, I did disrespect my wife before my ADHD diagnoses for the last several years, a dumb or smart man could all be totally clueless with ADHD, it's like walking around with a blanket over his head. Once I finally saw what I was doing to my wife all these years... OMG! What a breakthrough! Eureka! We're saved, it's like discovering the human genome and mapping what causes cancer! Imagine my humbling, then my determination/drive to set things right. Instead of getting a hug and encouragement to proceed with help and correct everything.... WHAM...she files for divorce. Imagine my disappointment, but I know that emotion will eat me apart and it still does, but I have to understand her and forgive her. I understand and can forgive my wife completely, my wife is not strong like Arwen or any other strong/smart wives sticking it out when their husbands finally turn the corner and admit their ADHD. My wife is not is as forgiving as other wives of ADHD'ers. Why isn't she, but why do I forgive her? Simple... her family, her friends, basically her environment. Remember... you cannot forgive someone until you understand, understand means getting all the fact, a full trial with data. At this point, my wife wants to hear nothing, zip, zilch, nada. Do I understand? Yes. Do I forgive? Yes. Do I respect her for this divorce? No. I don't respect her now for a completely different reason. Before it was my blindness of ADHD for not respecting her, so I repented and asked her for forgiveness. I still haven't got it from her, why? She doesn't have the facts, she doesn't understand. Her family, friends, counselors wasn't much help to her, so that is why I understand it all. That's too bad she doesn't forgive, because she needs to learn to forgive for herself. Mother Teresa was the richest women in the world, she didn't have a dime, but she was strong and forgave everyone. Now, it's my wife's blindness to the facts of what's this divorce is causing, someday she needs to ask me for her forgiveness, and I already have. I accept the divorce, but does my wife need to continue to ignore the facts our children are hurting and make war? You really cannot ask to be forgiven for something, until you repent. She is nowhere near repenting. She admits no wrong. This divorce is all for the benefit of her and the attorneys, not the kids, not me, not our families. Until my wife admits fault, repents, acknowledges to everyone what this divorce negatively is doing.... no, I don't respect my wife now. I understand, I forgive, but I don't respect her. Those with understanding/knowledge, I respect. Those with forgiveness/peace, I respect. Those things require strength, I respect strength. I don't respect her lack of strength... her lack of understanding/knowledge, her lack of forgiveness/peace. Someday after the divorce, when she understands and forgives and "literally says it"... that is STRENGTH... then I will fully respect her. I am praying for my wife to show strength... Forgive!
Peace!
Dan
“NO PEACE WITHOUT JUSTICE, NO JUSTICE WITHOUT FORGIVENESS”
- Pope John Paul II, the Vatican, December 8, 2001
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20011211_xxxv-world-day-for-peace_en.html
Regardless of your faith or beliefs, Pope John Paul II was very wise and respected by billions of people world-wide of all faiths, religions and beliefs.
Quotes…
The failure to forgive, especially when it serves to prolong conflict, is extremely costly in terms of human development. Resources are used for weapons rather than for development, peace and justice. What sufferings are inflicted on humanity because of the failure to reconcile! What delays in progress because of the failure to forgive! Peace is essential for development, but true peace is made possible only through forgiveness.
Forgiveness in fact always involves an apparent short-term loss for a real long-term gain. Violence is the exact opposite; opting as it does for an apparent short‑term gain, it involves a real and permanent loss. Forgiveness may seem like weakness, but it demands great spiritual strength and moral courage, both in granting it and in accepting it. It may seem in some way to diminish us, but in fact it leads us to a fuller and richer humanity, more radiant with the splendour of the Creator.
No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness: this is what in this Message I wish to say to believers and non-believers alike, to all men and women of good will who are concerned for the good of the human family and for its future.
- Quotes from Pope John Paul II
The statements of Pope John Paul II apply to the families going through a divorce. It is sad so many children in our world must continue to be negatively affected by the failure of adults to make peace before, during, and after the divorce process. No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness. This is why I have forgiven.
Quote…
Forgiveness is above all a personal choice, a decision of the heart to go against the natural instinct to pay back evil with evil. It has its perfect exemplar in the forgiveness of Christ, who on the Cross prayed: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Lk 23:34).
Religious or not, this make good sense, but difficult for people to do; I have forgiven for the sake of my children and for myself. I hope and wish for all divorcing people to do the same, so finally they may truly move forward with good parenting communication skills. No peace without justice, no justice without forgiveness.
Wow
Dan, no offense meant, because believe it or not we all do like you and want things to go well for you, but I think you need to step back a little. You're coming off as very preachy, and you sound like you're contradicting yourself.
There's one thing I don't understand at all in your post. You seem to expect her to "repent," but you also make it sound as though 90% of the problems that led up to the divorce are your fault. Which is it?
Also, understand that as much as you *want* her to forgive you, you can't *make* her forgive you. And, believe it or not, that's her right and it doesn't make her a horrible person. You sound very upset and very conflicted, and I can understand that. But I think that essentially stepping up onto a high horse over the issue of forgiveness after everything you say you've done, and berating your wife--whom by your own admission you have treated badly for years--for being too hurt to forgive you is, at the very least, counterproductive.
This is going to sound harsh, but please hear me out, and understand that I truly do wish you well. When you treat someone badly, just because you realize it and *want* forgiveness and *ask* for forgiveness, that doesn't mean that you *deserve* it. Outside of admitting fault, what have you done to *earn* her forgiveness?
we'll agree to disagree
Let me try to explain it this way... This may be one of those ADHD analogies that nobody understands.
Me: Wife... I didn't know what I was doing and I started the house on fire.
Wife: You started the house on fire?! I'm angry, you fool, I'm done with you!
Me: Yes, I know, I accept that... I'm sorry, so please let's just move on from all of this and...
Wife: Oh no, not so fast, you idiot...
Me: Yes, I know... but the kids...
Wife: Shut up, the kids are resilent and will be fine... what about me, my house, what about all I put into this...
Me: The kids... they are still in the house.
----
Thanks Breadbaker, you make good points but bottomline, what you, my wife and others still may not see... I don't yet deserve and frankly, I don't need forgiveness, maybe not until I'm on my death bed... Sure, it's good to receive it, but it's even better to give it. What I want and my children need is peace... We all may just end up going around and around on this point. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus... when divorcing, their children are left floating around in space. I know that is not good for them, our innocent kids. My kids deserve better right now and after the divorce, someday I hope our children forgive both of us.
“NO PEACE WITHOUT JUSTICE, NO JUSTICE WITHOUT FORGIVENESS”
Read again please, the quotes I posted from Pope John Paul II about forgiveness. Be you religious or not, those are very wise words.
I would love . . .
To hear your wife chime in on this issue. I get the feeling that we're hearing only half of the story, at most.
I'm not going to post on the subject of your situation any longer. With all due respect, you are very "stuck," and I really don't wish to go around in circles with you while you are in a state of so much pain and confusion.
BTW, I'm a devout Catholic, Dan, and Pope John-Paul II understood the frailties of the human condition far better than your short excerpt shows. I suggest you delve deeper into his writings for the sake of your own understanding. For one, they may help you to step back enough to be humble in the face of your own failings, and to be more compassionate of others' situations.
Be well.
- BB
So would I BreadBaker, so would I.
I'm on this site, I've laid out my failings, my faults, I showed her this forum, yet she is not here. She refuses to post, she refused to talk, she's awol to all of this. I too would love to hear her chime in on this issue. I'm not humble? Oh, gosh, how you don't know me. Compassionate? I understand, she's forgiven. You say you "get the feeling that we're hearing only half of the story, at most." Well, that says it all about the kind of trial I would get. Like I said, let's agree to disagree. Thanks and peace be with you.