Submitted by Chevron on 09/07/2017.
Must the "grown up" adult always tolerate and be patient, and never express anger? Or even HAVE any anger?
....I find that there's a rather extensive therapeutic literature about this question.
Must the "grown up" adult always tolerate and be patient, and never express anger? Or even HAVE any anger?
....I find that there's a rather extensive therapeutic literature about this question.
Passion
Submitted by jennalemone on
This is for my benefit as much as to you, Chevron. I just read this: "Never deny passion, for that is to deny who you are, and who you truly want to be." I have lost myself trying not to be a shrew, trying to hold my anger in. I had lost my passion because I was "stifleing" my feelings every day - for years. I am now of the mind that I can put my feelings and passion into something outside of my marriage, that I can find my self again. I am not talking about an affair. I am talking about art, writing, helping people.....don't know yet, but I am looking for a purpose other than being an enabler/servant and angry victim. It doesn't pay to drown in my passions of disgust or contempt or discouragement. I have already used up many years in feelings that have done harm to my health. I believe I need to 1. Speak up. 2. Not care what H says in response. 3. Find strength to hold my own integrity. And to do that, to be able to let go of my need to enable him, I must 4. Focus my passionate heart toward other things, opening the doors to opportunities to give back to the world with good strong feelings and courage to be me, therefore letting go of my need to feel angry at H. I want to truly love something again. I am practicing by remembering and acknowledging all the people and things and events that I loved during my life so far and being grateful, feeling those feelings inside of me.
Don't be cruel to yourself by sitting in sadness and anger
Submitted by jennalemone on
Here is a page worth reading if you, like me, find yourself feeling bad about yourself and angry:
http://iheartintelligence.com Read the article (scroll down) "7 ways to help you heal and find love again."
"Do not look back and grieve over the past for it has gone, and do not be troubled about the future, for it has not yet come. Live in the present, and make it so beautiful that it will be worth remembering." H lives in the present only. But I was regretfully living in the past and anxiously living in the future. It is time for me to balance my own life with some of that passionate living in the moment.
Blessings to you as you
Submitted by Chevron on
Blessings to you as you journey, Jenna.
Is there a consensus?
Submitted by vabeachgal on
From what you've read, does the profession advocate one way over the other?
One person is to be the adult agent of change versus the negative affects of stifling anger?
Is there a consensus?
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Chevron,
From what you've read, does the profession advocate one way over the other?
One person is to be the adult agent of change versus the negative affects of stifling anger?
Hi, vabeachgirl
Submitted by Chevron on
In online articles by therapists, the distinction of "appropriate" or "constructive" anger vs "inappropriate" anger seems to be used a fair amount.
It seems that nowadays anger is recognized in therapy as a natural emotion, or some angers are recognised as natural response.
Some therapists write saying anger has a violent component to it. But therapists distinguishing appropriate from inappropriate anger dont say that all anger is by nature violent. They focus on the expression of anger
Here's an article that got me to thinking about discussions of anger on this site: http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar03/whenanger.aspx
Some things in it I want to think over some more
1) Anger is a social response.
2) It's the expression of one's anger that is constructive or inappropriate.
3) Anger is a motivator. Something needs to be done as the result of it.
4) Anger can be helpful to improving relations, but only if both people are able to confront the problem and tackle it together. On reading that one, I must admit that I remembered the many stories told on this site of dealing with a partner who evades responsiblity, doesnt apologize or make amends, gaslights, and doesnt change harmful behavior. How could there be ANY chance for anger expression between the couple be healthy, in that situation?
Very good information. I
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Very good information. I appreciate it. I don't have time to respond fully right now.
Thinking about you, vabeachgirl
Submitted by Chevron on
I wanted to tell you a little more about why I started a thread with that question.
I find the dissonance between advice often delivered in articles that give tips about relationships in which adult ADHD is involved, and the struggles of people who are actually living those relationships to be noteworthy sometimes. So many people living the relations describe the harmful impact on them of their spouses ADHD breakout anger, but the "tips" articles never or next to never tell the ADHD partner that their anger acting out is damaging to the relationship, is harmful to their partner, and that the damage endures and builds, if they don't do something about it. Why? Why is it so much more frequent for the finger of accusation about anger's damage to be pointed at the spouse who is yelled at, gaslighted, ends up working two jobs, ends up being the only person to clean up or to take care of kids? This really, REALLY bothers me. Where's the advice to the denier, hider, emotionally immature adult? Where's the idea after all, that it is a RELATIONSHIP, not one partner being the mommy and servant of some with ADHD challenges? It seems so often like the writer writes out of double standards where anger is concerned.
And anger is such a hotbutton way of condemning someone else: "you're angry" just about means "you're a sinner." What about who did whatever to set off the anger: let the child run into the street, pilfer from common accounts, passive agressively toy with the other spouse, treating her/him like a parent being resented by an ODD child. These behaviors, which are not good ones to do to other people...what are people supposed to be saints, not having a reaction to things done at this level? It's OK for the less disciplined, less mature partner to act out but not OK for such actions to generate a response of fear, being appalled or angry?
Over and over again it gets written that the person in relation who is the responsible one, who has the job of caretaking the couple; or by a non in a non/ADHD relation, needs to tolerate, keep his/her temper, understand, pick up the slack.
But here's where I get back to that article about appropriate anger, Va, and what I'm working through.
1) Anger is a social response.
2) It's the expression of one's anger that is constructive or inappropriate.
3) Anger is a motivator. Something needs to be done as the result of it.
Point 1) tells me that anger will happen. It's part of being alive and in relationship. This means to me that it's nuts to even think about living without anger. Anger happens, these articles say, when the person thinks something needs to change in the relation. It may be rational or irrational anger --> this needs to change. It may be juvenile or adult anger --> this needs to change. It may be selfish or charitable anger --> this needs to change. But anger is going to happen. I turn to the Bible for models and for instruction. Looked at carefully, what I have turned up in the Bible are two things a) don't worship your own anger, meaning feed it, obsess about it, make it the center of your life. Get past it as soon as you can, don't dwell in it. As the Bible says, don't let the sun go down on your anger. Deal with it before you go to bed. Clinging to your anger is a foolish thing to do. It makes it the center of your life. Most of the remarks about anger are in the book of Proverbs, which is the book about how to live well on this earth. Interestingly, the Bible talks not about squelching anger, not about blocking it from happening. It tells Bible readers how to handle it when it does: don't worship it, get it over with, don't be led around by the nose by it. b) for Christian Bible readers, it always is of interest to see what Jesus said and did about anger. Often the translation of the word anger used in an English language Bible is zeal. In some situations, Jesus was motivated by anger/zeal to do something: cleanse the Temple, or call out those who were being unjust. A time or two he turned it on his own disciples because they were not acting up to what the situation required of them. One time he reacted to them with at least irritation because they were being dumb.
Point 2) what IS an appropriate, or a more appropriate expression of anger and what is an inappropriate expression of anger? This is a good question, at least for me to be working on. Some of those articles do describe more appropriate expressions of anger. The question is what to do with it, when it comes. How to deal with anger and the situation.
3) Anger is a motivator. Something needs to be done as the result of it. This was the point from the article...and it wasn't the only article that said the point...that gave me some new light on what I'm working on in myself right now.
Since the year dot, I've read or heard in therapeutic situations that depression is often or usually anger turned inward. I've worked with that one. One of the most interesting journeys back into the roots of who I know myself to be happened awhile ago, as I made a journey back into myself as a child being regularly abused, and discovered some old roots of anger. It was pretty astonishing. I found back there a little kid who was pissed as hell at being beaten, psychically and physically. Discovering that extremely old anger wasn't a completely bad thing. It was a "this should not be! This is unfair!" anger response when I was a kid, a kind of a survival response of a very small child, while being abused. That very old getting mad at being hit by a parent, It was, if you like, a node in me that once I finally found it, I could honor it...I did and do admire that scrappy little kid who in the face of what was being done to her at the hands of someone who (at that point) was much bigger than she was and out of control, had enough to her that the kid could react, under the lash, "it's not right to hit innocent small people"...Once I found it, I could start to release that old old anger.
I don't figure that I'll ever be done healing and growing up. Life keeps happening, which means that there is always a chance to get another ding in my chassis, and anything could happen that needs work: my wheels could fall off, I could get rear ended or crashed into by something, whether someone did it intentionally or not.
The personal reason I've been ruminating about anger has nothing to do with my ADHD husband, except that we both live with each other. In fact I've told him the personal part of what I'm going to write here, about anger....and have talked it over with a good woman friend of mine the other day, as well:
That point 3) did something to me, opened up a glint of something that I hadn't seen before about how anger does things in me. Here it is:
Anger is a motivater. It's all about action. It says something like "this is not good. This needs to change." Then, here's the new wrinkle for me: it either moves a person to take action to make that change (a positive example to Christians is Jesus taking a whip of cords and driving money changers who were taking their cut from people's need to buy animals to offer to God in the Temple); or...it doesn't move a person to action, and so it goes inward in the person and sits and festers in there.....and in there, if it never gets any action accomplished on the outside, it festers and builds into depression. Jenna talked about other possibilities for that anger that is awakened because someting isn't right, but never issues in action, that that anger goes in and starts working on things like self view, or view of the world. This the old truth that if anger isn't dealt with openly, it goes inside and turns into depression and other things....
Briefly, because this post has gotten long already [ even in its edited down version], I'm through about a 5 year period in which there were multiple things that happened, a combo of things at my job and things done by family members, which ordinarily would lead to me separating myself from the situation, or speaking up for myself, or talking back, or severing a relation, and in each case, I took the best stock I could of the situation, and ...turned the other cheek. Tried to understand what was going on. Looked as best I could at the humanity of the people involved. Didn't participate, but neither did I take action to call the situations out....or stand up for myself. I went the route of tolerance, quiet, deciding how to make the best of it, patience. Turn the other cheek.
Rationally analyzing the details of each situation, one could conclude that the quiet, patient way was an attempt to contribute positively to the situation. No doubt about it, each time that's what I was trying to do.
None of these situations were brought on by my ADHD husband. The situations were happening at work and in the family at large. I'm talking about me now, not ADHD. LOL, he's not the only person in our ADHD/non relationship! For us to become better, it doesn't always have to be about him.
So in what to me were a surprise series of events in various places, I wasn't treated respectfully or well...and I turned the other cheek and sought what I could do to get through the situation as well as I could, without kicking up fuss. No whip of cords cleansing the Temple for me.
Well that #3. Anger motivates people to act, and if they don't act, it goes inside and IT acts inside of the person, corroding self respect, fostering depression was just the angle I needed for the moment.
But it's like a closet door in my interior life that contained all of my decisions not to act, not to speak up, not to take steps to make things better during the last 5 years in these situations at work and in the family at large, has been opened recently and I can see that I've got some work on my inward turned anger, sadness (the biggest one is sadness), and dejection at being treated badly. Which I was, neither exaggerating nor dismissing....
LOL, Va, so if I've got the glimmer of #3 right, if one's anger is appropriate (appropriate object, for ex; appropriate proportion to what happened, etc) and pushes you to do something (for ex. from this 5 year set of things, stand up for myself, instead of quietly taking it in the chops), I had better DO something because sooner or later I'm going to have to DO something, and if I don't do it in the situation, it, the anger originally never expressed in action for change, will go inside me and kind of corrode in there, until it makes me so unhappy that ....ta Daaah....I have to DO something about whatever it was that I tolerated that if I'm a worthy human being, it oughtn't to be tolerated.
I'm not even talking about venting at this point. I'm talking about if harm is so obviously done that balanced people wouldn't let it slide, Do Something, Muttley!
There are different ways to turn the other cheek! Sure some things need acceptance, sure they do. But Jesus didn't turn the other cheek about some things, and stood up, spoke up and took the risk.
What I won't be doing is going back to those people and those situations. The water of passing time flows only one direction. I'm not planning to confront those people. Although there are one or two in the mix that I'll want to act with in a different way than I did back then.
What I do need to do are the very things that I declined to do, when I was angered by mistreatment, misrepresentation, etc. One doesn't need to be self indulgent or an inciter, to speak up and stand up for what needs it. So the question, detached from the old situations (which are past) has to do with my own acting with integrity now and in similar situations in the future.
What does this have to do with ADHD, if I'm not angry at my ADHD husband and he's not angry at me these days?
I think it has to do with the downside of stuffing it, in the face of advice not to get angry at being mistreated. I'll be thinking over and aiming to learn more about appropriate manifestations of anger.
This has to have gotten way too long. Apologies.
Bazinga!
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Chevron:
I'll get to the bazinga later.
Yes, anger is looked at as bad, especially in some generational context. I was taught that it was not ladylike to express anger directly. A lot of the advice we see regarding an ADHD relationship is to work on your anger first and re-create your relationship starting at that point.BUT, the anger definitely has a SOURCE. I don't think too many, if any, of the non adhd spouses posting in this forum started out as inherently angry people. If anything, it seems we are nurturing in nature. (Today I read that adhd folks gravitate toward 3 types: someone who is stimulating, someone who enjoys co stimulation or someone who tolerates the adhd behavior and provides a stable foundation, with the last type being the most prevalent. We are not suprised by that research!! LOL ).
It seems like a double or triple whammy. The anger has a source so without mitigating the source, the anger is likely to continue. We are told that it it is our responsibility to control our anger first. Stifling anger is very unhealthy and leads to resentment, depression and loss of identity. There are certainly enough posts here about that. Big Surprise mentioned that the effects on the non adhd spouse should be recognized and acknowledged. I agree. For example, my neighbor had (unfortunaately) a chronically ill child but she acted on advice which told her that it affected the entire family, including the healthy siblings and they should not be slighted. I'm not comparing an ill child to ADHD, but it makes sense to me that it shouldn't always be the most responsible person who should suck it up.
Absolutely.... where is the advice for one member of the relationship to grow up. I am reminded of last night. Anyone who has read my posts know that my husband has racked up serious debt. It is his debt. Most of it I don't know what it was used for. I didn't approve, know about it or benefit from it. I told him that I was experiencing crushing anxiety and stress over it. His answer? (delivered with a glare) "me, too." REALLY. That's it in a nutshell. No acknowledgement of harm to the other person. I'm expected to suck it up. The answer is NOT to be more patient and understanding.
Anger or any other type of emotion out of balance is a signal to change something. I also believe that depression is a form of anger turned inward. So, how we deal with our anger - constructive or not - is very meaningful to our health. Our anger says something is wrong but if that something is someone else's chronic bad behavior and there is no change or attempt to change, how are we to deal with this anger appropriately? How is it okay for the most disciplined partner to have to suck it up? It does seem to me that chronic anger can be diminished only if there is constructive change, and sometimes that constructive change is the ADHD partner growing up and taking action, not the non adhd partner becoming a contortionist.
This is long and not well formulated.
Now for the bazinga. I've always had a job, but mostly just a job, not a career. My daughter moved overseas and I wanted more than two weeks' vacation a year to maintain a relationship with her. Upon divorce, I need affordable housing. Teachers get summers off. Teachers are eligible for half price HUD homes in the area. Check ad check. Last summer I took 17 credit hours in 12 weeks to get a teaching certificate. I was passed over by my two local (VERY good) school districts. They receive applications by the truckload. I took a last minute position at one of the least desirable local districts. I am teaching remedial reading to classrooms full of... wait for it.... add, adhd, odd, ld.... you get it... ALL the D's..... the universe mocks me.
I am brain dead now after the first week. They are a handful - wanderers, talkers, avoidance behaviors, disrupters....
BUT, there is great support for these kids here, lots of intervention and almost without exception, good family support. LOL. Maybe it's my cosmic justice to help keep as many young people as I can from wreaking havoc on their future relationships by dealing with thei "stuff" NOW.
VA....You can be my Huckleberry
Submitted by kellyj on
Is it a cosmic joke or was it on the path of destiny? Who knows, but you can be one or more of those kids angels from above. I've mentioned this before about my swim coach and how it only takes one person to make the difference even if not on that level, on the smaller one. I will never ( I mean never )....forget the day a friend who I had just met bought me a Burrito for 50 cents. I had no money and all I got for the week was $1.50 so 50 cents was 1/3 of my entire salary at the time. LOL But I'll never forget going over to his house for the first time and they were living on meager means I can tell you. Compared to me....I was shamed ( silently ) and in awe of this unthinkable thing that he did without batting an eye. He was just sharing the wealth as a common practice and he did it without hesitation. Like....what else would you do? I was ashamed because I know what I would have done and it wouldn't have been what he did and I felt ( and am ) eternally grateful to him...even to this day, that's how much I remember that ...like it was yesterday.
I actually became a mentor ( once ) for kids in need ( not disabled or special needs ) per se ( lol ).......by shear luck of the draw....they put me with a problem child only it wasn't that he was being a problem, but he didn't really like the mentors they had tried to pair him him. All they said was that the others tried to do the more father and son approach and one older man did that and the "child in question" immediately didn't like that. And holding hands and touching ..."touchy feelie'. so that was it...and it was my first time out. Comes to find....guess what? LOL Yep, he has ADHD and I knew I was golden. LOL I knew exactly what to do....where's a basket ball....were go'in outside!! After he beat the pats off me in chess.....( wow ) ...he slaughtered me and he was 12. ( yep...it does come with some perks too lol ) I took him every where I would have liked to go and he loved it...we got along swimmingly although after a year and half I was getting sucked into the family more and more and that was where the "in need" really was not so much the "child in question". LOL As I saw it....he just needed to move!!! I took him to see his first drag races and he was mesmerized....and LOUD. It was a perfect match.
And I did come here for some real insight for myself but I wanted to comment on what you said since I actually could say a lot in a few words here. First off....all feelings and emotions are legitimate....I didn't come up with that myself, but I've adopted it as what I now really believe is true. You cannot stop them from happening......they just happen and then out comes something. Or not..and everything in between. Anger is always appropriate...for 50 seconds or less. LOL I didn't make that up either but I loved it so much I keep that one in the fore front of my mind just as a reminder. And going along with what I said about being able to comment......I can go a step further....way back as a child and going through what you just described back then...and it's not different today accept...I know what is happening in "real time" and monitoring things as they go and make changes as necessary. But what if it never changes even when you tried everything and it doesn't work? Those feelings have got to go somewhere since they do just "happen"...there is nothing you can do about that? But you've got to do something with those emotions that come from those feelings and that's where the rubber meets the road right there. These things just don't go away but what you do with it....is everything.
Right now especially....I'm all up and down and sideways at times I know this ride all too well....it's just a bucking bronco on your nervous system and you "nerves" get really worn out. It take so much energy, just to maintain and you go through so many changes even in a day....it simply wears you out. And I just can't sit there for too long before it really starts to get to me. But...what I'm noting now as I say this...is feeling it in my chest and in my body and in my abdomen too. I can feel the "heat' from the anger at times just rising off my body in waves for a few minutes until I'll usually get busy doing something, just to take my mind off it. I'll go from sad....to angry...and back again...over and over ...just like the long time "cycles" that I just experienced with D. She was just like a clock...and she would start out with the minute hand going from 12 to about 5..and everything was great. Then about 6 thing would start to go sour......by 9 it was starting to get hostile and by 11 you couldn't even stay in the room with her it was so bad. And then "crashed".....I'm leaving....or what ever crisis there was as the time. And then depression...and then it would start all over again. My contribution and my ADHD challenges.....definitely were triggers not just annoyances and she was just getting triggered all the time.....which as I'm saying this...."triggered" into emotional outbursts of uncontrolled anger and contempt ....is interchangeable to "rage" or a tantrum any day. It's the same damn thing and yes...men are bigger and stronger and maybe more physically threatening......but if no one is actually hitting each other or pointing guns or pulling out knives and baseball bats....then there no physically "attacking going on" here in what most of us as talking about. That includes me even in my worst moments. So it's not physical "attacks" as I'm saying this....its an assault on your nerves and nervous system...it's where PTSD comes from. It's the emotional and sensory attacks or assaults that are never ending. No break from it or rest to recover over time.
I sliced my hand open once really really badly on some broken glass and I was home alone and blood was really pouring out so I wrapped it in a towel and held it up over my heart and jumped in the car and drove myself to the emergency thinking ...before I pass out. Anyway....I was actually fine and it really didn't hurt ( yet lol ) although, with what blood that was coming from my hand was now running down my arm and getting all over me. So when I walked into the emergency room...everyone stopped and looked at me and I was sitting in front of a doctor in like 6 minutes. LOL Not recommending but if you want fast service in emergency...dump blood all over the front of you, it's get's peoples attention. lol
But the surgeon who stitching me up and there were a few to do so we were chatting..and I was asking him if the nerves would heal and he said probably not ( he was wrong they did lol ...a little numb just in one spot ) but he went into a really interesting lesson about the liver and how amazing it is. And as he said it...."if you drink alchohol and you can feel it.....you damaging your liver. If you get drunk and falling all over yourself, then you are literally destroying it and just beating the crap out of you liver every time you do it." But as he went on to say that the liver....( the only organ?? ) can repair itself over night. As he said by the next day after you've destroyed it...it's like new again, that's how amazing it is and fast it come back to normal just after one "hang over" day in between. But that's when he said....."so if you're going to be a fall down drunk alcoholic...make sure you do it every other day since it's the "everyday" without that one day or repair in between...that destroys it since it can't ever repair when someone drinks every day. And he was adamant about it too...as he was saying to me kind of touge in cheek ...."go out ...have ball, tie one on and get ripped......but only every other day now, if you know what's good for you." LOL He was funny doctor....as he sat there and stitched me up. I was out of there before some of the people who were still waiting outside had gotten in to see anyone ( it's the blood...remember that lol )
But seriously....from both recent and times long ago.....you've got to do something with it and just last night I realized I do this all the time. It's the same thing I use to do before and swim race on race day....just sit back and close my eyes and breathe and get my breathing in the same rhythms as my body. You can't breathe underwater so the breathing is always timed and synchronized and I use to sit for a while before and hand and do that to prepare. I never realized it but I guess that is meditating? I'm not really thinking about meditating...I'm just timing my breathing with my bodies energy and trying to get them one in the same....that's really all I'm doing or thinking about as I always did. It's just atomic...I don't even realize I'm doing it until just last night? And that's where I can really feel the anger rising up and out of my chest and like a heat wave and out of my body. And I just sit there until it's gone....that's one way to do it and I realized I've been doing that for so long I forgot where I learned it? Go figure...it works without ad doubt. More like Yoga from the way I just described it but I just sit back and stay relaxed....sometimes ( many times more often ) I'll just doze off and nap.
But it's the slow burn from the inside out that really fries you..and it will after a long enough time....just like your liver....your body needs a break once in a while and if it doesn't get it....then something not so good will come from it...without question. It's stays in your nerves..and your nerves keep firing since that's all they know...and until your body knows it's not going to happen anymore and it can finally come down to normal again..after all, our brain, just like you liver...is just another part of your body....and it's all one in the same.
There was one final thing I wanted to comment and this goes right along with "what are you going to do with your anger." This is, and it isn't anyones fault. What isn't women's fault, as you were mentioning this..is being conditioned or taught or even socially "trained" not express anger. I know, I had two older sisters...I lived there and I heard "all those things" too. But I was a guy....that didn't apply to me. But the thing is though...like my new friend who didn't even bat an eye at sharing the wealth and it just came naturally.....it's just because that's how his family was...it was natural for them and they were all like that. And that is a problem for women when it comes time to be assertive and express anger which many times....they don't do it very well. Men are much better at it..and have a lot more practice and can use or employ all manner of mannerisms and techniques to rile each other or confront each other in a contest and not go over the edge. But it's only because ( I feel ) they learn to do it well or better in some situations where a "little goes a long way". It's not about intimidation...it's about simply expressing it easily..and not having that be much of a big deal. A woman who can do it as well as a man or better...is exactly that. It's not a gender thing....it's a learned thing and that...in respect to "the other sides part"...and I even include myself only in the situation I was in with D.....no matter what she said I did or my part....she "HAD A BIG PART" in that...and her anger was her anger not mine. And how she went about and how it was expressed....was 90% of our conflicts....she basically failed every time out. I never once...saw her express anger...in any way that could be called appropriate. Not even once. It wasn't her anger that wasn't inappropriate...it was "her" and how she expressed it....every single time...not stop...without end....cycle after cycle...just like a clock. I watched it happen enough times...that I knew it wasn't ever going to stop and that was that. No change what so ever and that's exactly what told me...."uh oh.....I know this feeling and why I'm feeling." Been there...done that, more than once. It's gotta go somewhere.....other than inside your body.
J
VBG....I think it's formulated just fine....
Submitted by c ur self on
You made some great points about the reality of where much of our anger comes from. And I agree whole heartedly with you...I was 50 when we met, and had been married to my late wife for 30 years...I could probably count on one hand the times we got angry at each other. And even then it was never to such a level of disrespect that we sadly have succumb to at times....
But, (not trying to be difficult here) if we refuse to leave, and we really hate the person we become, when we allow the behaviors of our spouses to so impact us, to the point we are miserable and angry...What options do we have?
I've refused to leave for 9 years....And my main goal the past 4 years has been to find ways I can mange my life with her, without anger...(peaceable) And without the destruction to our relationship the anger produces....I also agree with you about suppressing our anger....My goal is not to suppress it, but, to not have it.....Acceptance and boundaries has really helped with that....
Learning how to truly ***Let it go*** and how to truly accept & respect her, even when I see the blame train wreck coming...This approach is not only right, (I say it's right, it is right for us, because she isn't able or willing to hear me, due to her independent and combative mind-set) but it has helped me immensely with my unhealthy feelings toward her...(a boundary I must place on myself)
Her life style was so foreign to me when we met, it made me want to control and look over her should in most every situation of life...I had no trust for her or her thinking...In my eyes, I felt she had messed up priorities when it come to most things.....I had to move out of that mind, into a healthier place....
So for me now, it's just respect and acceptance to allow her space to make her independent decisions that she has been doing all along anyway...But now I do my best to not question or give an opinion about any most anything...Allowing her to crash and burn w/o my intervention has been crucial in eliminating the anxiety and frustration that use to haunt me because of my attempts to bring light to the problems I could see coming...Also we loose site (or I did) of their true value and strengths when we seek to intervene and control instead of trust....
I let her ask...the more I walk away from her decisions w/o comment....The more she asks for my thoughts....Funny how that works....
Congrats on your job w/ the kids...I think they are blessed to have you....
C
Interesting Question....
Submitted by c ur self on
I usually regret my anger....Maybe it's because I take it too far....It makes me not like myself...I can press in conversation by pointing out wrong behaviors, even when they aren't wanted, or even being heard....(which when delivered stressfully, and loudly, who would want to listen) I've always regretted these episodes.. To me it's just stacking more wrong on top of wrong!...Of course it also allows for exoneration in the mind of the one I'm forcing my angry reaction onto (the target becomes my anger instead of the behavior)...No matter though....I must own my anger...I can always leave the situation that I blame it on....
I find biblical truth to these questions usually brings me into line...."Be angry, but Sin not....
Be quick to hear, and slow to speak, and slow to anger, because the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of G^d"....
I'm better served, to stop fighting the battle, and meekly walk away....According to Paul and James....The threat isn't what is causing me to feel anger in my mind and emotions...The threat is when I allow it to spill out....
Just my view.....
C
: )
Submitted by Chevron on
Let me know how it goes, please.
((( Vabeachgirl ))) for now. I can't imagine a classroom of that.
Get sleep, girl.
Quick take aways
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Chevron:
I have some quick takeaways after a couple of weeks of dealing with this student population. One, the work is very fulfilling but exhausting. I guess the work itself isn't too exhausting, it's just that everything is new and takes 3 times the effort it will take next year.
These kids have entourages. What do I mean? They have regular teachers, good parental involvement, special staff to oversee them, remediation (me), guidance office help, in some cases child protective services in addition to the medical and psychological help they may or may not receive.
Aaaannnddd... they really want to do better. Badly. Everyone here is quick to give praise and encouragement. They do not suffer daily blows to their self esteem as they might otherwise. They definitely do better in an environment of caring, nurturing, acceptance and guidance.
Entourage. That is the operative word. My quick takeaway after this long on the job is that part of the frustration in an adhd and non adhd marriage is that often the non adhd spouse is thrust into a situation of trying to assume ALL of these roles. Of course we're tired, anxious ,exhausted and angry. It's too much and it's not right. It's not really a marital role.
You can't force, make, cajole or manipulate someone into doing something. Personal responsibility is a must. But also, one person cannot do all of this for another person while trying to keep the wheels on the family bus. Trying to be the sole and complete support staff for an adhd person is a sure fire path to personal exhaustion and frustration.
So much of the advice that seems to pop up everywhere about dealing with an adhd spouse has to do with one person doing and being more. Stop the insanity. Admit the adhd exists. Admit it affects other people. Find and use support in whatever form might help. Get an entourage.
Well was that sync or what?
Submitted by Chevron on
Vabeachgal, you've been on my mind a lot today. I've been wondering how your new teaching assignment was going. So one last time for today I checked the site and...there you were!
Teaching, teaching youngsters, and teaching youngsters with learning disabilities ...all three in your case...has got to be a blur of work and complexity. I'm so glad that it is fulfilling, too.
I think you are so, SO right that the non ADHD spouse is expected and told to be a whole entourage. That puts a finger on it, all right. All those hats piled on hats, on one person's head. All those bucks stopping at me. Finding the right word for the right bottom line observation is kind of magical, in a way. I think you put your finger on it with "entourage."
So.
I think there is something deeply unfair to the situation if an adult spouse with ADHD through denial and/or ignorance refuses what "entourage" he or she could gather to help them...... and so that crushing burden of all those expected jobs, roles, and so on just keeps pushing the non partner or the disciplined ADHD partner on down, with a heavier and heavier burden.
My husband works his tail off. He does what he recognizes is right to do. He's a gift. REALLY. AND this is the hardest relationship, physically and in complexity of demand, by FAR that I've ever had in my LIFE, and one part of it is that I'm so much an entourage for him and for us that there's no time for me. And aging is on its way, sooner or later, and I know what happens when my mind and physical powers wane to a certain point.
Oh yeah...... by the way.... where's my entourage??? You say I'm it? My partner isn't even one entourager for me?? I'm all those hats for ME, too??? No fair no fair, that's two entourages demanded of one person!! And if we had kids I'd be the whole entourage of the family for all the kids toooo???
More power to you Vabeachgirl. : ) I always read you.
Chevron
My husband is a nice guy. He
Submitted by vabeachgal on
My husband is a nice guy. He works his butt off. He is easy to talk to. People like him. He's generous with his time. I'm lucky in that he has been able remain employed and he doesn't rage or verbally abuse me. Although, I could argue the lying and hiding is verbal abuse.
When I look back over our marriage, I am reminded of all of the advice and comments I have received. I've been told to understand where he's coming from, make allowances for him, be more patient, be more organized (keep a calendar and reminder system, set up family meetings, take over the finances - as if he would let me - blah blah blah) I was told it was hard for him to be a stepparent and I shouldn't expect anything. He was a bachelor, shouldn't expect help around the house. Nag. Don't nag. You get the idea. Underneath all of this was my husband's underlying thought that I would have responsibility for everything if he weren't there, as if my choice in life was always him or not him. That's some adhd thinking there if you ask me. Doing anything for me or the family was a gift. And, not surprisingly, the world at large applauded him for ANYTHING he did.
What was missing? No one and I mean no one ever did anything but make excuses. I heard from his family "sure, he's always lied" "yep, always bad with money"...
No one, even my own mother, took him to task and asked him to step up and grow up. No one told him to pay attention to his wife, take her out, make sure she feels loved, work WITH her, not against her.... not one single person.
It has been emotionally and physically exhausting. No entourage for me.
I'm not sure what kind of motiviation other people had, but it didn't help me. I guess people looked and judged me as capable and left it at that. Worse, I was blamed for being competent and "not letting" him help. (hysterical laughter here) I was married, so no single mom help forthcoming. It was crazy. When the kids were growing up, even the SAHM weren't shy about asking me for help. After all, I had an outwardly helpful husband. My husband was outwardly helpful. Many times other women would say "wow, my husband wouldn't do that for me" and they would be referring to some task. But he could never distinguish between things like that and things that really needed to be done and considered. I always wished I could have responded to these women truthfully Sure, you think it's great my husband just poured me a glass of wine? Did you know he hasn't done his laundry in 15 years and is a reckless spender and a liar? After awhile, took no pleasure in these little things because the big things became SO BIG.
So, I don't remember who recently posted about why the adhd spouse isn't taken to task... but seriously, why not?
Yep, my H can pour me a glass of wine when he feels like it but can't even perform basic adult responsibilities.
Wup...I only hit that "Save" button once...
Submitted by Chevron on
duplicate deleted
Entourager
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Love love love it. I'm an English nerd. Love the word.
I dont want to be the only entourager? I m chuckling!
I ll respond more later but not now!
Re: entourage and over burdened
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Wow. A lot of great questions and comments in this forum line. An entourage would greatly help when it comes to lifting some of the stress and overwhelming work. I, like others here are dependent upon their ADHD husband's income. (my H always made more than I). And now disabled, I don't make anything, bad situation to be in. This puts some of us in really precarious situations. I am dependent upon my spouse, which he seems to resent to some degree, but I've also helped him IN his business and endeavors. I was always his back up person, but especially the "gopher" from his forgetting things he needed FOR his work. (especially on game days, when the bands had to play for sports teams) It never failed, he ALWAYS forgot something important on game days, but didn't realize it until he needed whatever item he was supposed to have. He'd call me, I'd have to drop whatever I was doing and take him some item ..... drive several miles to the game, park a mile away and walk whatever thing it was to the fields or arenas. (Frustrating) over 20 some years of that,and it never changed or got better. This was before we knew about the ADHD. Anyway............(squirrel)....lol.
I didn't get the help from him that he expected from me, and on top of it, didn't get his time or affection or sex either. It was like he was living his own life his own way, and seemed to prefer that. When I needed him to be part of our marriage, and also a "husband/partner", and have him be involved in OUR lives and household. (Something that's been talked about many times on these forums) and still is.
He is wanting to do this now, and I have to say he's really trying. But, now its ME that's having a TERRIBLE time BELIEVING that this is going to last. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and a possible 180 degree turn take place. Its a delemma for sure. How can this be trusted, when its been difficul for SO long, and is this a normal response?
I'm interested to see what Melissa might add to this thread. I would also love to WATCH and observe a more healthy and functioning relationship such as hers, to visually see and hear the every day interactions.
Mutuality, reciprocity
Submitted by Chevron on
Hi, Dede,
You wrote a bottom line:
I didn't get the help from him that he expected from me
I keep thinking over advice about living in a relationship in which there's ADHD present, that seems to me to skew to pointing out flaws in the non ADHD person's efforts, comportment, attitudes, but being very light on any near equalhanded attention to the efforts, comportment and attitudes of the person with ADHD. I keep wondering why these uneven advice articles are out there.
On this site we say, and I think it's reality, over and over again, a relationship can't survive, let alone hope to try to thrive, if both in the couple aren't actively contributing, trying, doing work for, trying to communicate, in realistic work arounds regarding the ADHD. OK, that's what we say, and it's as far as I can see from my relationship, true. I don't find my end of this relation I'm in to be easy. There are things that are not in it, that have always been in other relationships that I've had. I am apparently now on a rest-of-my life learning curve and extra, due to my husband's ADHD. OK, I get that.
But back to these descriptions of ADHD in long term or marriage relationships, that skew heavily toward the non ADHD, or the more disciplined ADHD partner being told do this, don't do that, accept this, tolerate, etc.
I've been cooking in my mind that what you said in that one sentence of yours may be not only under your husband's expectation of you and himself: that you help him, but he doesn't help you, but also under these advice pieces that don't dish the same level of moral, psychological, and coping critique and instruction to the person with ADHD that they do to the spouse of the person with ADHD
I wonder if in fact these pieces presume that the two people are married as you and I describe married, at all. I'm serious. The conceptualization of these pieces seems to be that the ADHD person is like a little kid that Vabeachgirl described being aided by all that entourage of helpers: special ed teachers, aides, coaches, therapists doctors. That the ADHD person IS the center of the relationship, and that all these helpters (many of whom are paid help to do what they're doing) are SUPPOSED to be moving in accord with the ADHD child/adults needs, capabilities, feelings, maturational level.
Well that's not a marriage at all, is it?
At best, at very best, once a real marriage, which as C often says, is defined by sharing, acting as one, and I'd add, reciprocity, mutuality, having each OTHER's back, is not inforce, what you've got is an ADHD person at the center with an entourage, or an entourage of help given by the spouse.....and those little kids with entourages that help them learn to deal with themselves NEVER GIVE BACK TO THEIR HELPERS. They're all hired help, you see. The kids are not supposed to. They're recipients of what their parents, their state, their government and their schools give to them, especially, but don't give to all students. More power to the kids an their entourages.
But where does that leave a real marriage? Nowhere.
At very best....truly very best, if an adult with ADHD, as you say, expects YOU to help HIM, but never helps you, the best, the absolute best taht can be worked out long term is parallel lives. You take care of you, and come and go around your partner, as if he were your room mate. Well, living as room mates is NOT living as married.
That's the think I'm trying on as I read these pieces that point the finger at the person w ho doesn't have ADHD and has the temerity to say: don't have those feelings, don't ask the ADHD person to do t hings that are hard for the person to do, don't set boundaries that cramp HIS/HER style....instead, do this magic trick of having better boundaries yourself.
I think there's a fallacy in these articles, once you see one so heavily unbalanced, and it's the fallacy that the ADHD adult is.....really an ADHD kid and so you have to kindly treat him/her as a kid, not expecting mutuality, reciprocity, attention, help. No, the hidden message behind the message to accommodate and work with ADHD is.....an adult person with ADHD needs to be handled like a kid.
Just thinking further. I'm lucky in love, and very happy to be with my husband. And all of the ADHD generated behaviors are going on in our house, and I find it hard. Right now I'm dealing with loneliness as my husband has completely bailed on any effort to deal with our Equifax hack, shuts down talk about it, and so on. He wants me to help him and us, but when it comes to participating in hard times....as you have described in your household...he disappears like a gorilla into the mist.
As for trusting your husband to have changed permanently his attitudes and actions, Dede, I think it's OK to just wait and see. You have a good heart. It's all right to just wait a little longer, so that you see, by your own lights, not according to his wishes and tempo, whether or not he willingly is working on living up to his declarations. There's time for you to wait and see. It's all right to do that.
Chevron
Thanks for sharing your experience w/ the kids VBG...:)
Submitted by c ur self on
"So much of the advice that seems to pop up everywhere about dealing with an adhd spouse has to do with one person doing and being more."
I think doing and being more is most people's tendency's in a marriage setting (maybe not so much in a work for pay setting)...(It's undone, I am a responsible adult so do it!...This thinking and acting on it (when the work belongs to our spouse) leads to many things in us, (the doer at any cost) and nearly all of it is not good!...LOL)
I think that is what drove most of us to look for and find this web site...I have come to realize it's not about me or you doing more or being more. It's about doing things differently, it's about over coming my propensity to react to things, (Wading in and doing it at any cost, even our own sanity and emotional state) and to refuse ownership of those things that are not mine....
Yes...ADHD does exist, and so does laziness, and so does unconcern etc etc etc...and if you and I are going to live in the same house with a person who models this kind of behavior concerning their work and responsibility to us, and the marriage, we have to manage our lives differently than we would if our spouse wasn't doing this...."Just like your special needs children"....There is a reason they have the support, there is a reason they call them special!
When we loose our propensity to jump in and be the entourage, at that point life can slow down for us....But we have to be able to look away from what we have already created by our past efforts....Nothing good comes without a price!
Many nons will read this, but their guilt and fear will drive them to continue down their path of enablement....Only lose of healthy or sanity will change them....
C
I am done being angry
Submitted by jennalemone on
I am glad to put down my sword and stop fighting this war. I thought I was fighting for love and family. I was. But this is a fight that cannot be won. It is a battlefield where no one wins. Anger seems to need a place to spew out it's emotion. But isn't that what being a adult is about? Isn't a sign of maturity being able to know what to do with emotion? I have to remind myself to stop being so sensitive. I remind myself to balance my many negative thoughts with a new and appropriately connected positive thoughts.
Like this: "OOOOOOH he is slamming things again trying to make me cower and to get control of the room and make me uncomfortable...punishing me for heaven knows what is going on in his mind but if I ask him what is the matter he will be sarcastic with me and not answer my question anyway." OK.....I catch myself and make myself have a new thought about this, saying to my self...."He is slamming things. He does this. I have slalmmed things too in the past. I will go out and get a coffee. His slamming is his business unless he tells me what is making him slam. Shake off the anger and disappointment that I feel. He is slamming things and doesn't talk. It's OK. He has done this before. We a lucky to have strength, able bodies, family, a house that is not ravaged by hurricanes, friends. Hold your head up and straighten your back as though someone were here watching you and greet life with determination and strength rather than the rage of a victim."
Perfect Jenna!
Submitted by c ur self on
What your approach says is:....I am going to own any thoughts or emotion I might feel based on his actions (slamming doors)....When you do that he is forced to own it or ignore it....But at least you don't put yourself in harms way, and become his target by attempting to show concern for his childish behavior....
We are all different animals (us men) & (women) :)...It really don't matter why a grown man or women is acting out....It can many reasons, maybe he is upset about something and is sorry afterwards...or maybe he is trying to get attention and exude his dominance..(chest beating).....But what ever it is...Your statement is the best medicine for those antics....Ignore it...Or go for a walk or what ever...Just let them stew in their own juices....
You know victim minded people love the attention...Even if they bark out insults just because you inquire what's up with them....Yep, we can avoid anger is us, when we walk away from the BS spewing out of them....
That works both ways....
Have a blessed day
C
When the other person slams things or shouts
Submitted by Chevron on
Jenna,
I came back to read your admirable post about choosing to go out for coffee instead of remaining in the situation and responding with anger if your husband himself is in a moment of acting out anger and slamming things around.
The memory of your post set off a thought train about an anger issue that I think was the beginning of me starting work on the dysfunctions and immaturities I brought out of childhood into young adulthood. It was the first part of me, in my late twenties, that I recognized was not healthy.
I reread your post. You're not writing about the issue that I'm going to bring up. It was your description of your husband's slamming things around that set off thought. What it does to sensitive people who are yelled and slammed at.
I grew up in a very loud, very emotionally dangerous household. Shouts, anger, accusation and throwing things and slamming every day. Both my parents were very immature. Perhaps that's the reason to bring up an anger issue on this site that you didnt mention in your post. SMD makes the point that often couples without ADHD in the mix have the same problem as a couple with ADHD....so true, and that doesnt erase the fact that many, not all, with ADHD are behind the maturational curve, or so say some experts. So there can be ADHD teenager like acting out anger.
I think you're so right in your practice of recognising that the angry slamming things around belongs to your husband, not to you, to take care of, and belongs to him, not to you, reap the consequences of. I like the fact that when the slamming starts, you choose to leave the situation instead of respond ing in anger.
It took me into my late twenties to recognize that I was registering other people's feelings, but not my own, in my body. Their anger acting out ws setting me off. I wasnt having my own feelings in the situation. Somebody around me yelling or slamming, or even frowning? My whole nervous system would bunch up, as if I were yelling or slamming. I was an echo chamber of other people's immature acting out. I had had expression of my own feelings whipped and slapped out of me, as a kid. I did the mirroring echo of someone else's juvenile self centered tantrum inside of me. Anger inside, even if it is someone else's referred anger, not one's own, corrodes. Time to stop telling an old story but there's more to it. Once I discovered my alexythymia, that gave me an internal reference point of discovering that I couldnt recognise my own thoughts, either...
To jump to the end of the old story, I did a lot of work on this, once I discovered that I was doing this. This being the ground of someone else's anger, which is not healthy at all, is why I think your choice not to be the target or even present, for juvenile acting out is such a good thing in the moment. It's you taking action, like you say, to take ownership over your own feelings. Not his.
Back decades ago when I discovered myself internally registering other people's feeling, and when I still was not expressing my own, the next stage in my journey was to discover that I couldnt find, let alone name, what I was feeling myself. I literally was unable to notice what was going on in my body, when I felt, let alone recognise what connection the bodily feeling had to an event or my thought. I've learned the word, alexythymia only in the last decade. Mine coming out that terrible childhood in which adults screamed and threw things daily and one of them hit me was a pretty bad case . Alexythymia can be worked on. I'm proof of that. You find and own your own feelings, and deal with them, instead of stuffing them, trying to kill them, or taking on someone else's feeling if in fact you're not feeling that feeling and have no inclination to have that feeling. That's why you going out for coffee is such a good thing, in the face of an adult well into adulthood juvenilely yelling or slamming things around.
Talk and returning to an issue can always happen later. If one wants and decides to do another round on an issue.
These recent posts have been very interesting to me...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
There is a lot to glean from the topic in these posts from VA, Chevron,C, DeDe, Jenna and more. I am particularly intrigued as I have taken a step back from engaging my H in daily life(helps that I live in upper apt). We do interact on occasion during the day but I do not include him in plans and doings. He is on his OWN. I can see that daily life is often a struggle for him. Fending for himself and being by himself is not setting well with him. I also see....it is not me he misses......it is the "making" life easy for him that he misses. And it is very apparent to me that my H has the emotional intellect of a 20 year old...if that. You CANNOT have adult conversation with a juvenile......and as God as my witness......I do not know HOW I did not SEE this!!!!!?????
There have been conversations between us in the last few months and I can see he is truly NOT able to relate to feelings, perceptions and opinions that OTHER people have, me included. THE ONLY dialog he initiated was stating " I never dreamed I wouldn't be having sex at this time in my life". Anyone see a concern for his "loving" me or "wanting" the marriage to work in that statement? I was not surprised at his comment. I said awhile ago....I have chosen compassion....for him. He clearly has"arrested development" and I cannot begin to navigate that along with adhd. I believe that the AD is why he reacted to ADHD diagnosis the way he did......and I can also see that arrested development has CLEARLY been behind so many "moments" I could not explain/understand in our marriage. Why did it seem WE could not talk about issues/problems in a calm mature way? I was ASSUMING a level of maturity.......I was way wrong.
Our living of life is not a marriage......and really has not been one for a loooong time. I think most people truly know.......when enough is enough in a marriage. ADHD persons are not the only masters of denial.
My H is a smart, witty, creative, fairly active person.......but the "responsibility" of daily living puts a major cramp in his "play time". This situation can become sadly too close to parent/child. I do not want to "navigate" ANYMORE!!
What to do in a relation with an adult who didnt mature?
Submitted by Chevron on
Zapp, your post reminded me that I dont think I've read any professional advice about this question.
...Practices that further foster immaturity are not the way to go.
Tending to one's own growth, wellbeing and maturation is always right to do, but doesnt address the dysfunctional impact on marriage of the second person's immaturity.
My ex-husband is seven years
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My ex-husband is seven years older than me. I freely admit that I got married too young (I was 23) but I also recognize that I have matured a great deal over the years (I'm now in my 50s.) I don't think my ex matured; in fact, he might have regressed. I can't recall how old I was, or how long we had been married, when I realized the great discrepancy in our levels of maturity. I also admit that I feel kind of stupid for being unwilling to totally acknowledge what might have been really obvious, that my ex was stuck at the teenager level of emotional functioning.