It's me again......I feel I owe you all an explanation in that.....I discovered why I came here ( quite by accident and randomly to add). That and to apologize for what probably seemed to be a contradiction at times in all the posts I've made here. I'm sure it did to a point and to that same point....it's what I was doing without actually knowing it. Specifically, it was trying to find or put a name or face to my angry voice. To me....I felt like a fish swimming downstream the wrong way during spawning season as well.lol I was working mainly off of intuition as I have discovered that I can actually trust it now more than I ever have....this is a big deal for me since I have been so easily swayed and thrown off course by others and distrusting it in my past because of being so co-dependent in my past relationships.
I'd like to start over from the beginning here ( instead of working backwards from the problem ) as I've been doing and retrace my steps for anyone reading this and I think this will all begin to make sense.
Edit..I've combined all my posts from another thread here together as it was in my original intention to do, but to keep things in context I separated them first and put them back here after the fact. Sorry if this reads somewhat disjointed here but hopefully this will make sense now that I've said this. The rest will become self evident I'm hoping. Thanks
I am: "Avoidant Insecure (Attachment).... as a child develops into the minimization of emotional attachments later in life. The child doesn't learn how to develop the trust that their needs will be meet. These children are prone to becoming compulsively self-reliant and emotionally restrained."
I'm not going to argue with this in the least with the only exception......to what degree? That's where many of my contradictions originate from however. You'll see in a minute.
Edit: realizing that I have some Anxious/Insecure component as well ( like my oldest sister explained below).......this is more subliminal but was enacted when I married my ex-wife who fell into the immature female/Histrionic spectrum. This I believe is the source for my co-dependence....both in fitting with cluster B partner and the immature male profile.
Side Note: I think this is where the Narcissistic tendencies in appearance come from.....immature male romantic partner definition fitting better than Narcissism. I think this is something anyone also needs to put into an evaluation of their partners behaviors. The behaviors may be just as hurtful for their partner but the diagnosis and potential for change may be different as well. Maybe yes, maybe no? I see this in myself and my obvious ability to adapt and change versus my experience with a Narcissist. Naivety and emotional maturity/immaturity I see differently than emotional intelligence and experience. With one there is room to grow....the other there is not.
I don't see emotional immaturity specifically mentioned or discussed much with ADHD. This may not look immature on the outside either.(unlike me) People with ADHD can be slow to develop ( like me) for various reasons....and look Narcissistic emotionally without having the core components or lack of empathy which is the real damaging component. I think this is where it gets complicated in trying to access other people. All Narcissist appear to be immature (or stunted) at some level in their psyche but not all immature people are Narcissists.
Studies have shown that females have an innate male attraction to ( mature male features...looks)...more so than men when responding to women. Within these studies it was shown a bias or assumption in thinking that this relates directly to a mans competence and maturity. Something to second guess your self if your a woman looking at a man.
Avoidandt Attitudinally, AvAD children are contemptuous of sadness- they define it as the “stuff of sissies”. A goodly percentage of these children lie somewhere along the spectrum of depressive disorders.
Oh yeah......big time!!! again....to what degree? Too soon to tell.
HencPrimary emotion: The predominant emotion in Avoidant AD (AvAD) children is sadness which is related to a significant sense of emptiness / loneliness. However, the world sees little or none of their sadness or loneliness.
True......this was my primary source for my emotions while growing up
AvAD children believe their sadness is infinite, and should they lapse into it, they see no exit. e, they go to extraordinary lengths to avoid any expression of it, and usually effectively shield themselves from even recognizing their sadness.
Not so much.....at least not seeing any exit from it. I became a great escape artist....not necessarily internally (from disassociating coping strategies although present) finding alternative sources for re-attaching in the real external world. Both Good and bad. Also......attachement to mother but identifying with father however......this relationship became somewhat mixed and variable....more contradiction and cycling back and forth through inconsistencies in parenting. bottom line......I was also good at scavenging= resilient and resourceful = optimistic world view carried throughout my life. Seeing things as, no matter how bad it gets, there's always a light just around the corner. That is what defines me and is my life force.
Their internal shields work so well that they often truly do not think they are sad.
Again.....no not really. I felt sad and lonely a lot and I knew it without question. I thought it was "growing pains"......back to being stoic or learning how to be this way so I could integrate with the outside world and be social. Also, identifying with my Dad who was a successful Narcissist and seeing how he interacted with people. I learned through observation but it really didn't fit.....I always felt like it was "playing a role" which was as a young boy...the one that was handed me. Not with my mother or my sisters however.....they loved to indulge me and didn't encourage playing the "macho" part at all. They were also much older than I was so I was their cute little brother. Always kind and caring which they are still today....my mom too however, there's more to it yet to come.
What AvAD children do feel is an anxious edge in quieter moments. They rarely relax, lest their sadness “creep up” on them. Their hypervigilance is aimed at deflecting anything that might activate their sadness. As physical and emotional closeness carries a high potential for triggering their sadness, AvAD children avoid closeness. They can readily perceive adult efforts to promote closeness as malicious.
ehhh.....yes and no but not really applicable except for the relaxing part and the sadness that creeped up this way came and went and was not pervasive or persistent all the time. ( ADHD here I'm thinking in part?) I got this diagnosis off the internet description of Avoidant/insecure avoidant personality disorder. Simply saying that I had a predominate sense of sadness loneliness and at times feeling empty but would be more accurate...... but the fundamental classification is spot on. There is a nurture vs nature component to this and the nature was that I was the youngest by some years and my parents were older than most of my peers parents at the time. This was not difficult for me to comprehend but still that being only one factor. My fathers focus was on his career and my mother's focus was on my sisters who's lives weren centered around activities and a (somewhat immature female idealized/fantacy.... princess, ballerina ) which I was both not interested in and somewhat contemptuous of. Not my sisters....the fantasy. I also recognized early that this emanated from my mother who I learned early on as well......was not a reliable source for good advise when it came to dealing with the outside world. I didn't respond with a sense of malicious intent that I recall.....I responded more as the explorer who returned to the castle with news from the outside world while the King was away on conquest. This proved to have mixed and many times unexplained irrational moments in my mothers reactions. "But Mom, I'm telling you....the world is round why won't you believe me!!!"
That's a key word right there....contempt. I see this clearly different than envy which it is......and to reiterate, not wanting any part of it from a very early age which in my case was easy. I was in many respects "invisible" during this time which proved to be both a salvation and a curse. It left me plenty of avenues for escape (physically) and exit the back door of my families drama.
Primary behavior: The predominant behavioral strategy utilized by AvAD children is passive-aggressive behavior. Various behaviors are employed for their nuisance effect in order to pollute the air with tension, which minimizes chances of their sadness being awakened. Tasks are commonly done quite slowly, including ones they may want to do, to generate frustration in others, which again, buffers any sadness. Promises made are usually broken for the same reason. The speech of AvAD children is sprinkled with unintelligible muttering which is yet another passive-aggressive variant to create irritation and block sadness. AvAD children do not engage in incessant chattering, and when they do, that can indicate that their sadness has been stirred
I was all over the place in here however......yes, quite stoic and reserved......well mannered and polite and very quiet and not talkative ( the chattering ) just like it says.....however, promises were made and kept....period! No room for that in my household. (Duty, honor and obey "chop, chop.....hubba, hubba!" ) This was not me. ....could have been though under less strict circumstances.( lots of fear instead ). Mom was big on manners and etiquette ( in preparation for the debutante ball/cotillion)...Dad was big on obedience ( to keep the subordinates in line)
Passive aggressive behavior? Are you kidding me.....get out of town!!! lol I'll come back to this.
Boys and Girls do not follow similar development trends with Avoidant Insecure Attachment. Girls will internalize the insecurities developing low self-worth if not actively engaged in helping others, becoming ambivalent. Boys will externalize their insecurities; this behavior is commonly referred to as “acting out”, which is preceded and followed by withdrawal from others. This is highly evident in intimate relationships were the insecure avoidant person will need constant confirmation of relationship status through touch. The common behavior diversifies through maturation and the effects are usually diffused. (Davis pg. 2)
Oldest sister= -anxious-avoidant/insecure like me but with fear and distrust of outside world......withdrew into books. Voracious reader...magna cum laude w/advanced degrees in English Lit. IQ off the chart. Her behavior might be viewed as closed off, stand offish, Type A, lots of fear and not very feeling.....somewhat Narcissistic like which is not the case at all once you witness her actions and get to know her which prove just the opposite... except still very introverted. A contradiction just like me........ except the female version like this describes (and much smarter in most respects but doesn't show) You can't judge a book by it's cover........until you read it. And like, me but only later.....stepped out of the princess role she was in but then later returned to it in a different way.....uncomfortable (fearful) being outside the castle walls too long and found herself a successful King like my dad. I did try for a while but I found that once you leave the magic Kingdom there is no return entry. We're both co-dependent. Funny how that works?
Avoidant Insecure Attachment as a child develops into the minimization of emotional attachments later in life. The child doesn't learn how to develop the trust that their needs will be meet. These children are prone to becoming compulsively self-reliant and emotionally restrained.
Avoidant Insecure Attachment has been linked to anti-social behavior in males, but the link is not consistent with the greater population of men categorized as such.
Avoidant Insecure Attachment can be corrected by higher responsiveness to the child's needs and the allowance of negative assertion of their needs.
There is a lot in here to comment on mostly true as it applies to me to varying degrees but......within this lies many inconsistencies and contradictions as well.
My objective to this however is not to download my personal history. It's an attempt to give an accurate case study ( me ) to help clarify (or demystify) many of the discussions here in this forum with an actual real life account in comparison to the clinical descriptions, labels and terms used.....( attachment theory in real time and one possible conclusion) as well as the many contradictions that are real ( or possible ).
I see my audience as mostly the woman who have been wanting answers to their husbands, future or past relationships and specifically to ones who are recovering or trying to identify Narcs now or in the future................. in the hope that some answers might be here for you?
That's my intent.
I also have my own personal punch line and conclusion ( my personal agenda and goal)....concerning my wife and what I am calling a huge success both for us that involves the full gamut of things being discussed here (communication, Narcissism, child abuse in relation to attachment theory, co-dependence, anger.....
and the aftermath ( and healing) of being in a toxic relationship with a real sociopath as well as a number of other relationships in my life involving a variety of cluster -B folks with me having all the classic co-dependent components that fit to a T, a perfect fit!....unfortunately;(
There is a happy ending so please bear with me....there's more to come:)
I also wanted to say here that part of what I was doing previously was letting my Narcissistic freak flag fly in my earlier posts....this was the learned one that I adopted so to speak. In reality.....it had more to do with finding my angry voice within my many contradictions, my self betrayal ....and returning to a role I no longer play unless it gets incited or am in specific company. I am ( or have been) a contradiction in terms in many ways and right there is where I have found many of my answers.....the betrayal of myself and my angry voice ( putting a voice to my anger so I could speak to my wife from it.....not in anger but so she could see it, hear it and understand it. I did this and it worked. That's what I was here to do.....
I see now how I needed to immerse myself in it and go back a bit to be able to see these things better ( to make the contrasts appear to myself) I had this opportunity from what I experienced with my mother passing this year and my gut told me now was my chance.
To continue: My Mother's Family
Her Father: appeared stable,mild mannered (submissive co-dependent)
Her Mother( my grandmother) anxious/ preoccupied with childhood trauma. Eldest of 8 siblings....early in life caregiver responsibilities. Extremely domineering and socially and personally invasive and over bearing. Little or no respect for boundaries of others. Puritanical Dominatrix
Her older sister; preoccupied/anxious, Borderline/Histrionic, gifted Musician...died early from alcoholism, sisters oldest daughter: pregnant at 15, Actress ( Histrionic/disorganized attachment), died early 30's drug overdose suspected suicide, second daughter: successful artist/painter, emotionally and physically fragile and unstable (disorganized attachment)
My Mother:anxious preoccupied/avoidant co-dependent, strong religious and spiritual conviction. sexually molested by church elder when young. Said she told her mother.....who responded in abject denial and invited him back several more times for Sunday dinner for a repeat. I was stunned when she told me this only 10 years before she died.
All I can say about my mothers family (what I know as they lived out of state) was it was a three ring circus/ power struggle....my grandfather appeared to be window dressing. It was a female dominated show as there were no other males involved any where in sight (no extended family contact) with two Queens battling for seniority and one princess acting as referee ( my mother ). My only comment about my grandmother is when she came to take care of us once....remembering her coming to stay with us when my parents went away for a week once. My mom called to see how we were doing ( I was 7 or 8 )...and all I remember was me asking......"how long until you come home and Grandmother leaves?" That was after 3 or 4 days. I think this says a lot?
My oldest sister recounted her version much later in life saying " I just remembered her as a sweet old lady when I was young so I decided to go visit and stay with her for a few days. My second eldest sister said when she arrived to pick up my other sister to return to LA said " before I had pulled the car up to the house still moving up the drive way....L came dashing out of the house with her suitcase in her hand and threw it in the back seat before I even had a chance to turn off the engine.... got in the car..... closed the door waving goodbye at the same time," lol enough said.
My Father's family:
His Father ( my grandfather ) Very little is known or was ever talked about involving my grandfather. I never met him and saw maybe only one picture of him. Everything I know was told to me by my mother who met him shortly before he passed away. My father never mentioned him ever even though the family unit stayed together for their lifetime. What I do know is that his mother ran away with a sea captain and was never heard from again. His father was sent to the US to be raised by his sister and her son (his half brother) outside of St Lois MO.
When the two boys grew up they moved to St Loius and opened a drapery cleaning business. The fact was that the drapery business was just a front for a street cellar speak easy during prohibition. My father when he was 9 or 10 and first learned to drive when he helped my great uncle make his deliveries and then stop at his saloon to make liquor deliveries also. Since my great uncle did not want to draw attention to his location, my father would drive around and around the block while my great uncle went inside and have a "snort" with the boys and make the drop off.
The rest of the picture I pieced together on my own by hearing some more stories and reading between the lines as I could see they were downplayed a bit for my sake. I understood this later as I do remember listening to these colorful stories and soaked every ounce of them up thinking they were "cool" at the time. This was a part of my father's history that he was trying to leave behind....out of shame and wanting more for himself and his family and to rise above it... he looked down on his father for his experience growing up as he felt that he was better than this and never wanted me to emulate his past.
The bits and pieces of the story that I came to was this: during prohibition the only source for liquor came through organized crime in Chicago. The infamous ones ( Al Capone and the like) which were only a few hours drive from St Louis. While my grandfather was not directly associated with them he had indirect dealings with them get his saloons alcohol supplies. I heard enough related stories from my father to figure this out and my father at different times was exposed to some pretty scary people in his young life. It was the part that my father in everyway I knew him did everything that he could to hide ( becoming an executive for a major corp.) However, there was an aspect to my father when I came to this realization that fit well within this. He carried with the street smarts and skills that would allow someone to survive the life he had growing up and replaced it with being an excellent leader of people with an exemplary record of service, duty and skill both in the military (WWII) as an officer and later in his career. He was a well loved leader in his industry with an intuition and intelligence that allowed him to rise to the top of his field. Duty, honor and reliability was his second name. Unfortunately.....this was all he had to offer as a husband and father to our family which does not translate well from business leader to family leader. He demanded respect above love as he only had that to give...but he gave what he had and in this much we learned these lessons well.
I'm calling my grandfather: insecure/disorganized Antisocial/Npd ......from everything that I know...... as my father appeared to harbor a life time of anger and resentment to him by the accounts of my mother
Partial Post for This Thread
Submitted by JJamieson on Fri, 10/31/2014 - 04:27
I'm going to make a valiant attempt to do something that is hard difficult to do accurately. In one sense I've been trying to do this in way one or another for past 50 years (unfortunately) so I'm going to approach this with some authority ( and not mix words) but by no means is this saying there is room for a different opinion without error to be corrected. This is based on my experience only but I think it's a good one to use to help others get some understanding, some clarity and maybe some healing and resolution from the fallout of their own experience. Again...I'm speaking to those currently with (possibly?) , have been with (and looking for answers), and trying to gain some skills in spotting someone who has some form of NPD/ASPD/BPD or even Histrionic type cluster B disorder personality traits as their core feature.....or at the very least someone who is liking to have these to enough that they would be potentially damaging to you or someone you know in connection to having any of these issues. For the sake of this article....I'm just going to lump these together as NPD.
And for the record (as Kated made reference to) a person does not have a full blown diagnosis to be damaging ...... I believe strongly that this depends on a number of extenuating factors, which I think will answered for themselves as I tell my story later.
Before I do this....I want to say in my own words what I believe NPD is and what it is not and how to see the subtle differences. I've come up with a list of what I see as the fundament core elements
NPD is= pathological/ ( pattern ) behavior NPD is not= irrational/ behavior
NPD is= inflexible or intolerant NPD is not= resilient, adaptable, flexible
NPD people appear (hyper) sensitve and feeling NPD are not sensitive and feeling
NPD is = with intent/ a method to the madness NPD is not= unintentional or unaware
NPD is= deception with intent NPD is not= unintentionally deceptive
NPD people make you change or adapt to them NPD people do not change or adapt to you
NPD people= make you feel crazy NPD often do not = appear crazy at all
*crazy appears as a euphemism
NPD people consistently prove that their words don't match up with their actions
NPD peolple do not consistently prove that their actions match up with their words
NPD people appear as "givers" NPD people do not appear as "takers"
NPD people often promise you something NPD have nothing to promise you
NPD people deceive, lie, or mask themselves in fear of the risk of exposing their core insecurity
NPD people are not necessarily people that deceives, lies or mask themselves to hide from: the truth, protect themselves from punishment, are in denial * (the common understanding ) or simply insecure at different times for a variety of reasons none of them being fear of exposing core insecurity * unless these in themselves form a consistent pattern as a group of behaviors which make it even more difficult to spot
NPD can be= any number of behaviors or combinations of behaviors as long as it shows a persistent established pattern that continues uninterrupted with little exception throughout a persons life
NPD is not= intermittent , random, or influenced by external changes with the exception for only brief periods under certain circumstances
Now go back over the list again....try and spot the recurring pattern or inconsistencies within the pattern.....( a clue.....ask: is the overall pattern itself contradictions or inconsistencies ?)
I'll come back to this later when I include this in my story in my other post but I first wanted to post it here back in this thread to separate the two for the sake of those who are trying to determine the difference I am attempting to make here.
Submitted by JJamieson on Fri, 10/31/2014 - 11:19
NPD people are= contrary (black and white) the opposite in everything no mater how you apply it NPD people= are not inconsistent (almost never)
NPD people are= consistently contrary ....... in everything all the time. This is the key to how to spot them however, this has to done over time in the same way I had to have enough things in this list to compare and contrast the things I did. That's why they are so difficult to spot......almost impossible in only a few encounters for a covet one.....especially for a smart, successful one.
"Protecting My Fragile Sardonic Heart"
Submitted by JJamieson on Fri, 10/31/2014 - 12:59
That's what I do....it makes me passive aggressive, makes me bitingly acrid at times and has given me a wonderfully funny sense of humor and an extremely positive and optimistic world view no matter how bad things get..... with an almost uncanny ability to turn lemons into lemonade in most situations....which can be very annoying to some and magnetic to others (depending on the person.) lol
This can impede my ability to be sensitive and compassionate at times but it also has allowed me to put myself into almost anyones shoes and be empathetic to them.....that is unless I forget to put this into practice which at times comes from being obliviously and completely lost inside my hyper focused ADHD head :)
That pretty much sums it up right there. Which is a way of prefacing why I'm doing this (now) and my own personal motivation as well.
This is not why I came to this forum and also why I have been avoiding doing so since I didn't really know how to do both things at once and.....like I'm apt to do....jump right in with both feet and figure things out as I go without any definite plan. For some this might appear like utter chaos and the recipe for disaster and failure...however for me...it's turned into one of my greatest strengths from learning from experience this way in the moment (hands on) ....has given me the ability to deal with crisis, be the go to guy in an emergency and fly by the seat of my pants and come out alive...( which is great when you're involved in certain activities like skiing, motorcycle riding....and yes...even flying an airplane!! ha ha) Not always so good in some ways in a relationship but at the same time with some awareness....can be turned around to being only a positive asset if used judiciously. That is....in part....why I came here to this forum. To learn how to use this strength in becoming only an asset instead of a liability.
I think this is also why I have so much difficulty explaining things at times....since everything always appears to have some story attached to it out of my complete and utter lack and failure in my ability to be succinct and direct.....
so ..in this is my way I am apologizing up front from my total ineptitude and (as I'm well aware..... tedious way of communicating)....my humble regrets and apologies:) lol
And in keeping with this....was unable to explain exactly why I came back to do this until this morning when the gaggle of thoughts in my head finally cleared away enough to actually know the reason why?
It's from the somewhat intangible gut feeling or experience that keeps getting brought up or talked about repeatedly in this forum about Narcissism and the aftermath and at times unresolved injury to your soul that I think a person really never recovers from.....and only someone who has been there has any idea what I'm talking about. For those of us who do.....it is an experience that is nearly impossible to convey to another person to even remotely get them to have some kind of understanding of. I know because I've tried and I've always seemed to fail at it miserably. I also think this is because there simply is not way to do it.....nor would anyone want to actually understand it this way either. Not good, not good! ha ha
My saving grace in any of this comes from the fact that I was introduced to this starting from day one. This does give a person a certain immunity to it (my Sardonic Heart) but also the fore mentioned positive attributes as well. The universe does have a nasty habit in abhorring a vacuum and there really is a silver lining behind every cloud...it's just how works!
But just like becoming inoculated to certain viral diseases.....a live culture must be used in the injection......and in the same way....I built up my tolerance and immunity to it by being injected with certain amounts of Narcissism which also made me vulnerable to it at the same time.
I can see this in myself but not exactly as it might appear on the outside. And directly to the point of why I came back here (to this thread).....is trying to demonstrate exactly how (using myself as a guinea pig... this all works.
I also wanted to add here...that I'm truly writing this with kated, Standing, Harmony,at..the cross roads, fem-partner...or anyone else who I get the sense that something in this might have and answer for you.
I know that there have been times in my life that my own experience with this intangible feeling has led me down to a point that even the tiniest thread of hope or information was all I needed from hitting smack bottom and going off the deep end....this is how I somehow know that all this will make any sense to someone else....and possibly might help give them the thread they can grasp onto as a way of reaching my hand for something to grab onto.
That's truly my only motivation here or else I wouldn't have come back and do this before I leave this sight and focus on my wife and my relationship with her which is doing quite well currently in many ways is the best we've both experienced together.
It's why I have this opportunity (which I've also communicated with my wife about the time spent to do this... which she's OK with it) since we are no longer in crisis mode yet still keeping an eye on the time here so it doesn't interrupt this trend!!! lol
And in keeping with that...I will return later to follow up and connect this with to my list which is an extremely important part in all of the....
it's the part that you as a victim... had to play and seeing within yourself.... in possibly bringing this onto your self by being a victim in the first place and possibly not even knowing it? (being a "mark" or "target" ).....
the same as me.......that's was the most difficult part for me to see too.....and grasp that into this......
and also where........ feeling if I could spare even one person from going through this experience....it's worth the price of admission for me in my incomprehendibly neurotic and self absorbed sounding ramblings in an honest attempt for someone to make any sense of it???????? ha ha
I'll come back later....................
Round 2...attachment theroy, ADHD and Narcissists,
Submitted by JJamieson on Fri, 10/31/2014 - 17:38
Soooo....here's how the attachment theory plays into this getting back into that.
The reason I was so interested in this ( and have been) was because of the weird mixture of personality traits and attachment styles I seemed to have...plus my own confusion since none of it appeared to match me well???
My father was anxious/avoidant possibly some dismissive in there too.....definitely a successful covert Narcissist absolutely.
My mom was anxious avoidant/-preoccupied/avoidnat or somewhere in between and by definition and fitting with the model....I experienced early attachment all fitting the early avoidant model especially the contempt for sadness resulting in the humor aspect......and some early anxiety issues as well.
Yet for fun recently ( again which is why I caught this thread) I took an attachment style test to see where I was now....( and probably have been most of my adult life ) but with one excpetion...
the co-dependency Narcissism issue which I really noticed here in this forum? By the theroy model I was at high risk for sure....now wondering?
the test results put me at 3.5 in the anxiety range ( 1-7 right in the middle) the avoidant range was 2.72 with a low anxiety slight to moderate avoidance?
still wondering why is that? but not arguing this at all...it fits me well and it's well into the secure attachment range. I also remember not experiencing new relationship anxiety with friends or girls/women...yet I did have an unmistakable persona or false projected self in there too but that was mostly when I was a teenager and early adult (20's) that I could call up on demand or would appear when I got angry or mad? Plus I was really aware of it since it was in essense...hard to come by ( not fitting me ) and I had to learn to be that way to integrate with other boys or in sports. I remember that taking me a while to mimick or copy and I certainly had a very good example to follow ( my dad)
Then I really did remember.....it was my sisters. for all the messed up...mixed up components to my family including my insecure avoidant attachment, and my Narc dad...I tended to dismiss the relationship I had with my sisters and the role they played in my early life. I was the pest-y little brother who followed around their big brother, or little sister who followed around their big sister.....I was attached firmly to them as they were quite a bit older but still not old enough to not want me around or play with me. I had lots of care and attention from them (including my mom...too much of the wrong kind however with her....the avoidant , contemptuous aspect) but not with my sisters who served to balance me out with my needs as they both took care of me on a daily basis as I became a much better replacement to Barbie dolls for them. lol Unfortuantely...they themselves did not escape so much from it being older and female..
My issues stemmed more from my Narc father who....needing to be mirrored....rejected me (and my ADHD) to being somehow inferior as a good extension for him so he was either more disinterested or annoyed with me (inconvenienced)...but also wasn't around that much or me around him got a full dose of female bonding early on plus my sisters were attractive and smart = boyfreinds....and they had some really great ones that I hung around with too (adopted me into the program)...so I was pretty much welcome and was able to be myself ( ADHD included) without a problem.
But the sense of rejection from my father is what took hold in me (wanting or needing approval at any cost) which set me up for my co-de pendant relationship pattern early on despite the avoidant infant attachment. And even this was tempered by a long standing awesome role model ( replacement dad ha ha) in my swimming coach and other team coach male models.
The bad news in all of this is this; I attracted as much as I was attracted to girls , women and then ultimately one woman who fit closer to Borderline, Histrionic and then one that was all three including Antisocial PD and was also a professional at it....a good one! This string of relationships with these women reinforced any tendencies I might have and I was exactly the kind of guy they were looking for even though in every case for me.....the pattern began feeling alright but when the proverbial switch came in everyone...the underlying anxieties would get re-awakened even if I didn't experience them otherwise. This was my deep seated mothers (close to if not HistrionicPD herself..anxious/avoidant -preocuupied stuff coming to the surface and it was really disorienting....the same as it did when I was around my parents too long.
The other relationship factor that did come into play here ....a healthy one....came from my early sisters attachment to them. Without understanding it at the time...and being a little slow on the uptake in middle school and high school.....I appeared to have a number of girls who were friends as I also was so used to, comfortable with, and respectful of girls or women in general because of and out of my respect for my sisters....I attracted girls who appeared to me as wanting to be friends which I welcomed and maintained throughout school yet...I didn't want to appear too 'squishy" either if you understand this...but had already adopted my "persona" enough not to get confused in this way wither. later after the fact it hit me....duh??....no wonder my girls who were friends seemed to lose interest after a while. ha ha But later, i did have some healthy girlfriends and relationships with girls/women who weren't this way too...but that unhealthy attachment hooked me when I met these other women and I put my head straight into the noose every time :( and would start getting pulled into the pursuit and feeling manipulated and co-dependant pattern repeatedly without the red flags or cues that should have told me that something wasn't right ( with Narcissists in general) much earlier and to break off sooner when I should have felt this or recognized it which I didn't. :(
Now I do :)
not the sharpest tool in the tool box at times with women.....back then especially!
I'll come back to the Narcissist ASPD part in the story later...but this shows how differently things can affect the attachment theory both good which I think it was in my case.....and bad going the other way as well as me being ADHD.
If anyone has their input into this I would welcome it. I've had some professional help here but much of this is based on memory and piecing things together....in no way is this a purley scientific conclusion on my own but it fits my gut, fits my experience and fits what I've learned and know.
If it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck ???
A Child with Narcissism???????round 3
Submitted by JJamieson on Sat, 11/01/2014 - 17:48
" I could call him an unsuccessful narcissist. He has the entire mindset of a narcissist, entitlement and grandiosity delusion, envy, dominance, disrespect, devaluation, egocentrism, lack of empathy. But he has no skill whatsoever to manipulate people, he is much too impulsive to lie or play games. He would not have cheated me, because he had no skill in charming women. He could not control himself to stop interrupting people and listen instead.
It was an dysfunctional combination of ADD-like behavior with the motivation to get narcissistic supply. I was just wondering, if he is a unque case or if this is, what happens, when a child with ADD becomes narcissistic."
Crossroads made an extremely intuitive observation about the man she was with. As I read this it registered with me on so many levels and caused me to reflect....not just about myself but with all the known Narcissistic people I've ever been with (female) or around (both male and female) over my lifetime....and then laid myself over each one in a comparison to see where I could see the difference. In many ways I have done this before on my own......actually thousands of times out of a need to understand this for what I believe is the very same reason.
With me of course...it started with the same feeling that everyone knows from time to time for different reasons..."what's wrong with me?"...... thinking that if you've never asked yourself this question sometime in your lifetime then you should because there really is. And going a step further thinking "if you haven't done this by now it's probably too late!" ( that last dig was a joke just in case;)
This may be how I can answer crossroads question without actually having to answer it? That's not my intention here but I think at least some understanding of it is in mhy own observations of this process I've gone through.
If you can trust that I'm right or even being close to accurate then I already have done this so many times throughout my life time that even from an observational stand point alone (I've not been completely unconscious or unaware of myself during this time...meaning my entire life) and I'm not entirely dim .....I think I can apply what I've learned to what I know and makes some intelligible observations.......
First off.......I was a child once......and I was a (male) child with ADHD. I think this is a relevant starting place. The next observation comes as a question first....can a child be a Narcissist?...imediately thinking that the answer here is no. All children are Narcissis.....and to a certain degree, this is because they haven't had the time to mature and evolve and to acquire the capacity or insight to learned how to control their emotions yet which is a normal part of growing up ...reletively speaking.....this is relevant to everyone.lol
I'm not trying to make a case here for myself or someone who has ADHD....(an argument against crossroads comments) as I said were extremely intuitive and accurate.....what I saw or immediately intuited myself that within her own need to understand this and the observations she made...the answer in part is within the question.
If a=b and b=c then transitive law says that A must be equal to C This an absolute without question....
If all children are Narcissist.....and everyone (was) a child.......then everyone by this thinking is a Narcissist. The key point to make here is WAS. Once your past a certain age you are officially..... by the book..... no longer a child.
I remember thinking that as a child......when I turned 21......I would automatically not have zits anymore, have a full beard and be at the pinnacle of my mental and emotional maturity and intelligence .....ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!
And I firmly believe that Narcissism or any of these related disordered can be easily identified or described as a person of age with the capacity of learning and cognitive skills the same on average as anyone else who stopped evolving emotional and intuitively at some point in the process.
Because that's exactly what it looks like. The same in many cases is true for ADHD and all the descriptions of husbands(mainly) on this forum alone will verify that including me......in my past contributions in some posts I've made.
In both cases....a = b and b=c but a does not equal to c .....and that's the problem.
But now to go a step beyond this and give you my real unscientific opinion here which really does come from the entirety of my collective experience and knowledge plus a good dose of intuition is this;
ADHD by all accounts is a hard wired executive functioning issue ( bio/physical ). I can tell this without question on simply how it feels and the fact that there is simply no other explanation for it (for myself)....in other words it's mechanical brain functioning or dysfunction. The expression...not running on all 8 cylinders could be used here as much as I want to qalify this in defense....(but because I'm compelled ha ha) I will by saying that my own understanding of this expression is "crazy". I don't think crazy has anything to do with ADHD personally ( my own opinion of course :) eccentric ( out of round ) or eclectic yes...sure I don't have any problem with that.
Narcissism has to do with programming. I'm a big fan of innate programming. Animals all have instincts in the wild or they would all behave in random unpredictable ways...but we all know they don't. If you want to argue that humans are just animals with instincts and a cerebral cortex then there you go....I'm down with that.
And now going back to crossroads observation and her comment about a child with ADHD becoming Narcissism in context to everything else she, we and I have been discussing here......that this possible Freudian slip in my observation is one key in solving this mystery.
I didn't get that crossroads was actually being literal or better...she was saying this in context to attachment theory as she's speculated (and was being discussed also by fempartner) .....and where I so delicately and impulsively jumped head first right into this thread for the same reason.
I believe Narcissism is a distortion or malfunction in innate programming not in executive functioning. You the combine the two and that is where things can get really get Fucked up!
Is ADHD the cause for the this distortion? I don't believe this is accurate.....and I honestly would say so if I thought it was. I'd like to know this too if it were.
I believe that kated was absolutely right when she made the comment about "normal Narcissism" in that we are all on the "spectrum" here.
All people are not on the spectrum when it comes to ADHD............a therefore does not equal c because b and c are not equal.
Comorbid is not a linear expression as defined.......: "existing simultaneously with and usually independently of another medical condition." "usually" does imply that in some cases this is not true....but that's just a qualifier. I think this is the stuff where my own "conspiracy theories" were born out and mostly proved to be wrong.
Is ADHD a compounding or exponential factor? you betcha......this is just one mans opinion.
The definition of ADHD in itself ( as I understand it) was conceived and derived by anecdotal observation as "viewed from the outside" I'd like to clobber the person who coined this definition because the implications within it leads a person to make assumptions that the definition is a literal diagnosis by itself. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr mother F$%*r!!
However..... this is truly more relevant...... and in many cases an accurate way for someone like me to put this into their perspective as a means to see themselves....I will concede to that much in it and by itself is very useful for (us) to understand.
What's even more important to this discussion is how we appear or better.....the reaction or affect we(ADHD) have on another person which from everything I've learned and now have come to understand much more clearly is hard to discern experientially or emotionally from Narcissism from the outside.
The case in point using my self as the example that I just experienced with my wife. My own seeming inability to discern this very reaction in her and therefor not understanding it or being able to interpret it.......and simultaneously, her not seeing this in herself at the same time.
I've made comments or references to this in the process of me trying to figure this out but at the end of the day.........she's anxious and I'm avoidant. I make people who are predisposed to anxiety issues ( or fall into the predominately anxious/fear catagory in attachment theoryy even more anxious.....and anxious/fearful people in general make me anxious where I was not before.....which makes me avoid them!! lol
Anxiousness, fearfulness, negativity.....even people who are rather melancholy or facial expressions have a more sour or stern nature or who do not smile or laugh easily or show outward signs of happiness more than not......have a response in me to want to move further than closer depending on my interpretation of this. People who are out and out nervous and fearful either verbally or physically( worrying or complaining of discomfort, quick hesitant or unsure body language or outward signs of being jumpy, startle easily, panicky alarmed responses in a general way under normal conditions elicit the exact same feelings in me just to be around them which I do not experience on my own unless I'm in their presence. My natural and unconscious response is to get away from those feelings ( to make them stop) and avoid or get away from the source. Otherwise.....internally on a daily basis I feel calm and level without feeling of anxiety. I self sooth quickly and easily and bring down my own anxiousness in most situations without any problem and stay focused ( being good in crisis and emergency) To the point of being stoic at times.
But the more I feel this in others.....the more I do to counter these feeling which in many cases causes me to downplay, minimize, reduce the impact or importance, talk a person down,or overtly (or passive aggressively) criticize my experience and there for the other person without awareness of this when I perceive these things in a person that I consider extreme based on circumstances. And in rare extreme circumstance when another person appears to be out of control......I experience a panic attack of my own based on the other person ( or that's how it feels.....the unconscious response to them)
This doe not come across as being very compassionate or empathetic I can tell you.....it's hard to be compassionate of someone else's emotional crisis, fear,trepidation or worried concern when their response or outward behavior is causing a crisis of your own internally! lol All you can feel is wanting to get away from the thing that is triggering this response in you...or....in some way get them to stop
What I just described the best I could is an internal unconscious tendency in behavior or reaction that fits with avoidant personality (mine) This can range anywhere from undetectable -sub conscious to a sense of extreme panic, claustrophobia, raised heart and metabolism levels and overwhelming discomfort on the high end of the scale. Devcon 4!!!! This is just simply being in the same room with someone like this....the tension I experience to this can be amazing but I rarely display any outward signs until it gets really bad. Normally I just leave unless there is no other option. This has nothing to do with what's going on around me. A bomb could go off in the next room and I'd feel far less tension.
On the other side of the coin is all of you. This is the part that you know all too well. How I deal and manage this is probably different than many but I have a very long fuse to this kind of transferred nervous tension and fear unless I can't escape from it after too long a time and it is extremely rare for me to hit the end in my extreme version. I handle physical pain and discomfort extremely well and have a high tolerance to physical pain, heat, cold, fatigue, aches, pains, injury.....you name it. Put me in a room ( or car for example)...with a nervous back seat driver and I almost come unglued internally!!!
There is a part to this that I now realize that comes out of me whether I know it or not....my body language, tone, stress relieving strategies or outward verbal communication all fluctuate and vary to this and I know now than ever that this is what is being picked up on by others.....which includes their own reactions and responses to it.
Simply put...nervous fearful people make me nervous and fearful where I would not be otherwise. People who are nervous and fearful on their own view me as a psychic terrorist when my energy to them cause theres to go through the roof. I see the ceiling or their roof mighty close to their heads anyway so they don't have far to go. In comparison.....I live in the basement. ha ha
The point to this is to say that I don't see any connection to this and being Narcissistic however.......a n avoidant person like me with ADHD who is also a Narcissist would have a much different response than I would I could guarantee it. I care....they don't. I try everything I can not to have this affect others. They would probably berate them or criticize them for making them feel this way. Bottom line here is.....I do my best not to show or react to my own feelings and report this back to others even under pretty severe circumstance out of courtesy and respect. Not so much with my experience with a Narc.....I could imagine hundreds of creative versions to this and none of them would be mine.
What's important to consider here is....where are you on this scale coming from the other side? How do you perceive yourself into this scenario as a baseline for your own perception? I don't make everyone I meet fearful or nervous.......I only have this affect on people who are already nervous and fearful to begin with....and they to me as a symbiotic relationship.
And yet...none of this has anything to do with Narcissism.......with the exception to my extreme response in which case another person would be show compassion or empathy to a person displaying signs of distress where all I can do is maintain myself or think about moving farther away. This would appear as very unfeeling and unemphatic and I know there have many times this has been pointed out to me.
I also painted a somewhat extreme version to both sides to demonstrate this effect and in reality....the real problem exists on a subconscious level for both side of this phenomenon. This is in essense.....the very one that was causing many or the communication problems that my wife and I were having as this was happening simultaneously during the conversations themselves
But this is out of context to the discussion going back to the beginning of cross roads post.
missbehaven comparisons that she made from that perspective were some of the best ones I heard made to date as I said.......but are also not relevant to the context of this discussion either ( nor where I'm coming from here)
So what's the answer here? I tried not to lead anyone to a conclusion and I don't have one exactly by itself. I do believe I'm accurate in the things I said here and that does lead me to make some assumptions but that's it.
What I wanted to say more importantly was out of my own recognition of what cross roads, fempartner or anyone else reading this thread is doing for the same reasons I have which comes more from having someone with issues in the Narcissistic range of personalities do a pretty convincing job of distorting your own perception of reality and sense of stability and sanity and then going back to try and see.......
what just happened to you? How did I get this way? What's wrong with me? Am I going crazy? It must be me not everyone else (them)? I can't trust my own feeling here? I feel so disoriented and surreal? Nothing this person say about me seems to make sense? Nothing they do seems to make sense? I don't understand?
I can tell you I don't or didn't feel this way when I was around my sisters or friends ( also many other people) I only felt this way....or started to feel this way when I was around a Narcissist and that right there is the most exactly indicator I've got for identifying a Narcissist.
At this point I've learned to believe in myself and my own intuition enough to not believe all the years of being told this and assimilating it into my thinking to the point of insecurity. If I begin to feel insecure around someone I immediately go straight to Narcissism as its cause first but only to take a closer look.
For me this was what was missing in my ability to see them.....I immediately went inward straight to my heart and began to think poorly of myself and not trusting my own intuition enough to considered that the other person was manipulating me to feel this way.
That's truly where the damage is done....to your self esteem. They attack it first and always need to be above you so they can control you this way by bringing you down. that's the MO. But it's also why when I begin to feel these old feelings of insecurity in myself it is such a good indicator for me pointing to Narcissism as the source.
A Narcissist has no power over you if you believe in yourself and trust your intuition and feelings.
I've enjoyed your post of NPD
Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 11/01/2014 - 11:05
I see myself in it...I have had some of these traits, and like you said I was molded by insecurities formed from believing lies, ( the inability to say "I can't") not lies about what is right and wrong. But the deception that somewhere in my personal abilities...Mind and emotion I could bring order to any situation...The NPD no one wants to be around only surfaces, when we confuse personal convictions of accountability for ourselves to an outward infliction on all people who do not see it our way. "I'm the God here"
Can The Word Narcissistic Be Applied To Children?
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on Sat, 11/01/2014 - 22:41
Can The Word Narcissistic Be Applied To Children?
This is a reply to JJamieson's suggestion, that children are already narcissistic and so someone cannot become so later, but can just remain so instead of maturing. That is how I did understand his post. To avoid confusion of the thread, I start here.
Children until maturing are selfish and selfcentered. Whatever they get, they take it for granted, no matter if it is a material gift or a praise. They do not consider the alternative, that someone else would get it or that they would not get it. Children somehow perceive themselves as the center of amorphous surroundings existing to serve their needs. Children, who do not get, what they want, can get frustrated or make efforts to elicit it from the surroundings. They take, gain or earn.
In my understandings, while narcissists are also selfish and selfcentered, they cannot be narcissists without a clear knowledge, that the surroundings are not amorphous, but are filled with distinct persons, who compete for resources. But the narcissists do not accept the position they can achieve, instead they perceive themselves as innately only suitable to be automatically at the top of the hierarchy with all attached privileges. Narcissists feel entitled to get the privileges due to their alleged superiority. They are aware of the existence of others and what they want, it just does not matter to the narcissists.
Narcissists' attempts to get narcissistic supply are based upon the knowledge, that there are often obstacles to overcome, when they want to get, what according to their delusion inferiors would really owe to them.
Aware and intentional
Submitted by Standing on Sat, 11/01/2014 - 23:10
at_the_crossroads, i share your view. The pathologically disordered narcissists I have known, including my spouse, are fully aware of what others need and desire, all the while deeming others to be less worthy, yet grooming their potential supply by appearing to mirror the other's very soul and identity. Nothing matters to the narcissist but to be the center of attention. Whether that attention comes in the form of adulation or or fear makes no difference. Horrible.
Not my clowns; not my circus.
Standing I Just Wanted to Say to You...
Submitted by JJamieson on Mon, 11/03/2014 - 16:29
....that I went through a process very similar to all of the things I'm writing to you for one reason only ( a selfish one ). After I got "nuked" emotionally by the gal I described in my story here.......I had to find some way to rationalize or talk myself out of the exact thing you just said "she was aware and intentional." For that reason ALONE. There was simply no way I was ever going to believe any different. This became a problem for me because I was burning from my head down to my toes 24/7 for a while. I had to find a way to believe my therapist when he told me not to take it personally I simply wouldn't believe him.
But he was right and now so am I in saying the same thing....it's not personal. he's not aware ( because something is broken) and it's not intentional( because something is broken)
Submitted by Standing on Mon, 11/03/2014 - 20:46
But I also know awareness when I see it and at some levels I do see it in him. I can tell when he's unaware, too.
Not everyone is at the same level of incapacitation due to personality disorder.
There is a very clear distinction between my spouse's "I have no clue how poorly I am treating you" and "I know exactly how you feel, but I do not care, because I am #1,"
And really... I am not burning from head to toe, I just plain do not want to have to work with him anymore.
Not my clowns; not my circus.
I Hear You Standing...
Submitted by JJamieson on Tue, 11/04/2014 - 08:06
and I really do understand exactly what you are saying...( more in reference it sounds like to your husband's right hand man who just quit which was me less than 2 months ago myself...that was me. I get it) I'm not angry ( or was ) with my ex boss....I was just sick of it and fed up.
But this is NOT what I'm talking about...repeat NOT. I'm not invested in trying to fix anyones problems here or give advise..... and I fully expect that most of what I've said is going to get immediately thrown into the recycle bin as well.....I don't care about that....at all!
What I do care about is you....you and everyone else here that I see who is hurting. Just like you were saying about going to the councilor and his advise not really helping much in the moment or could be applied to your particular situation.
What I'm doing is planting seeds for the future because I've been there enough times to know that once in a while...you need an extra step up and there isn't one there when you need it. I don't expect anything I've said is going to carry much weight...and I know for a fact it's probably not going to make anyone feel better (right now) or win any friends at the same time.....actually, thinking just the opposite:)
What I'm hoping is that if I throw a few life preservers out there and a few extra steps scattered around that some one will randomly come across one when they might need it most and then go back to the business at hand...my relationship with my wife and focusing on the things I need to do. I got everything I needed by being here already and in keeping with what I just said I did that too. It's all good.
It's not how you feel right now that I care about...it's how you feel a year from now and after that.
And sometimes I now that when your around someone like your husband.....you just get saturated with exactly what you just said.....they just don't care,
Once in a while...it's good to hear that there are other people out there who do care whether you ever meet them or not....as a reality check when you start seeing the world is full of bad guys instead of people like yourself.
I really do need to stop now like I said before but it was important for me to do this if not for anything else but for what I just said.
And for the record....I do care.
Thanks For Responding ...Finishing Up Too
Submitted by JJamieson on Mon, 11/03/2014 - 17:14
Thank you for responding...and you raise some good points. I wanted to approach you again to say that from the sound of it.....I was very much in the same place you were in now not that long ago relatively speaking...it's how I could relate to what you are doing as I did the same thing for myself in what sounds like a very similar way....at least in part.
This came at the end of an odyssey and intimate encounter with one sub group in Narcissism ( and her "posse") that involved threats to myself and family to the degree that US Federal Marshals were brought in and ultimately made one arrest which resulted in the strangest twist of fate with that same person jumping ship and helping me in my efforts to protect myself and family for the future. Nothing in my past experience could have ever prepared me or given me the capacity to predict my experience as this is the stuff movie scripts are made from and it tested me in ways I had ever imagined possible...and what they feared from me was the risk of exposure and being caught which made me a threat to them and a danger to me.
It caused me to lose my faith for myself and for humanity but ended as a blessing in re-finding a new faith that transcended the one I had known....but I desperately needed to find that same faith for others as it was impeding my ability to trust and to have a new start..... and my ability to reach out and find new relationships in my future.
This process ended up with me taking 3 years off from dating or seeing anyone outside of friends and those people who stepped forward to help me in this process. At the end of this.....I met my wife and reintegrated myself socially with a renewed faith and ability to forgive and move forward. The other blessing that I received came from my need to protect myself and in my ability to understand and resolve my experience in way that allowed me to do this.... which also required me to see myself within it and the mistakes I had made including how to see these people now in a way that I was naive to before. This new insight and vision also allowed me to go back into my past and to recognized them there as well.
That's why I feel I have something to offer here as well as the other experiences I had with Narcissism in my family and my past relationships. To be sure....this was not a case of a bad relationship and ugly break up. This was an encounter with the underbelly of humanity and experienced professionals so to speak as I was a "mark" from day one with the intention to do exactly what they did. This was reported back to me by this persons brother who she had done something similar too including her own mother as well as a string of other men in her past. This also included the person who turned on these people as she had been thrown to the curb and set up herself to take a fall as a means to legally insulate themselves in the process. It was both eerie and surreal to be working with this person for me but I gained a new capacity for compassion and forgiveness as a by product of this relationship.
It was the unexpected people who stepped forward to help me at the times I needed it most that brought me back to do this as this was not why I came to this forum as I said before. My thinking is that I might be able to do this in my own way in an effortt to pay it forward for the same reason.
JJamieson's suggestion, that children are already narcissistic and so someone cannot become so later......
I'm sorry for that confusion....I'l try and state it simply. It's a normal stage of child development to be Narcissistic in this way for all of us. But it's also normal for a healthy integrated individual to evolve out of being this way and maturing at the same appropriate stages in childhood to becoming a secure and fully functioning adult. At some point or stage in this process.....a person who end up with these issues departs from or has this normal process corrupted in a way where this doesn't happen...yet going back to their early chldhood...they began no different than anyone else at that time being normally Narcissist. This is true for everyone without exception as being normal and appropriate. I hope this makes sense.
The points I were making were more in keeping with ADHD being one possible cause ( and your original question) and then trying to show that distinction by integrating attachment theory into the this as a way to explain it...the same as you referred to doing now as a way to spot someone for the future in finding a new potential partner (and healing?)......as I did too. Including going back and looking at your past relationship in your ability to do this....as I did as well.
That's the context that I am coming from and a way to offer you or anyone some new insight ( in the same I needed for myself....not knowing exactly what someone might need and trying to cover as many bases as possible because of it. I know I was searching hard for understanding and every new thing I would read or researched only added to what already new.....many times making sense later even if I hadn't assimilated of this together the same I have been able to now.
I found this actually served to strengthen my relationship with my wife as I became hyper vigilant there for a while and the knowledge I attained became a way for me to differentiate healthy or normal Narcissism in everyone when it appears at only appropriate times. We all exhibit these traits to some degree even it might only appear under unusual circumstance ie; distress or duress when needed as a strategy for survival. i can tell you that part of the testing that I endured taught me that under extreme circumstances...the temptation for revenge out of fear anger can become overwhelming. Losing touch with the feedback from your healthy self leaves you open to adopt a very self serving, self entitled way of thinking as a victim that is no better than the person that has hurt you or done damage to you. It's a test of faith that you cannot experience until you are actually tested. The tendency (I've done myself before) is to think of what you would do and how you would feel in that situation and then make judgments or voice an opinion where this is simply not possible until you've been there. All you can do is to project yourself into that experience and try and imagine what that experience would be like. What I discovered was quite different than that once I was actually experiencing for real. It's an incredibly humbling and vulnerable feeling and it forces you to learn, adapt and grow to survive or turn away from it in fear and withdraw.
The last two posts (3?) were still made in reference to spotting Narcs as you say you're trying to do. I think this has incredible value for someone including those coming to the forum possible with one?.....also trying to show how to use or see possible causes or predictors using attachment theory which I absolutely think is where you need to begin for this reason. The reason for using myself in this is simply from my experiences from it and a way to relate my experience with it in a way to explain it.
The points that Standing and yourself made brought to think of a way to further do this by simply introducing these people to you and talk about it from that place....the Narcs in my experience and giving some reality ( by putting a face) to the descriptions to use as a reference
I pulled these brief descriptions from the web so I can do this for you which is worded much better and more accurately.
"Not all narcissists are the same. Millon and Davis (1996) describe the following subtypes of people with NPD: the unprincipled narcissist, the amorous narcissist, the compensatory narcissist, and the elitist narcissist. As you read about these subtypes, see if any seem similar to the person you have concerns about. Note that both men and women can fall into any of these categories, and the narcissist in your life may exhibit traits of more than one subtype."
The Unprincipled Narcissist
What characterizes this group of narcissists is that they seem to be devoid of a conscience, or sense of right and wrong. They are often unconcerned with the welfare of others and are amoral, unscrupulous, and deceptive in their dealings with others. They exude an arrogant sense of self-worth and grandiosity. They are driven by a need to outwit others, which proves that they are smarter than those they prey on. It’s not unusual to find this type of narcissist in jails, prisons, and drug rehabilitation centers although many unprincipled narcissists go through life without running afoul of the law.
The Amorous Narcissist
Amorous narcissists have an erotic or seductive orientation. They construct and measure their self-worth around sexual conquests. They often run through a string of pathological relationships, casting aside the person they have just seduced only to look for their next conquest. Amorous narcissists are often known for being heartbreakers, as well as committing some rather outrageous acts, such as conning their sexual partners out of huge sums of money, pathological lying, and other types of fraudulent behavior. The amorous narcissist is truly the Don Juan character who compensates for deeper feelings of inadequacy by seducing others and taking them for all they’re worth. Each sexual conquest reinforces the amorous narcissist’s sense of self-worth and over-inflated self-image.
The Compensatory Narcissist
This type of narcissist is driven by a need to compensate for past hurts or childhood emotional wounds by creating an illusion of superiority. Compensatory narcissists live in a fantasy world of their own creation in which they “pursue the leading role in a false and imaginary theater” (Millon and Davis 1996, 411) rather than living their own lives. They are driven to enhance their self-esteem through what are often imagined achievements. In order to achieve this goal for prestige, compensatory narcissists need an audience of others who will buy into their deception. In fact, compensatory narcissists are often hypervigilant or highly sensitive to how others react or perceive them, often watching or carefully listening for any signs of criticism or disdain.
The Elitist Narcissist
In some ways similar to the compensatory narcissist, elitist narcissists are often obsessed with their own inflated self-image. They often create a false sense of self that bears little resemblance to their actual selves, yet they manage to convince themselves (and often those around them) of their unique talents and abilities. They feel empowered and entitled to special treatment because of whatever status or pseudo-achievements they may have attained. Elitist narcissists often turn relationships into competitions or contests, whether they are work relationships, friendships, or even love relationships. Here the goal is winning, no matter what the means or cost, in order to prove to others (and themselves) their incomparable superiority. Elitist narcissists are often social climbers and they think nothing of stepping on or over anyone in their quest for fame and status. They are very adept at marketing themselves and will not shrink from any opportunity to do so. Because elitist narcissists hold themselves in such high regard, they see little need to listen to others or follow directions.
Fanatic Narcissist: People in this category may have suffered some childhood trauma that resulted in a lack of self-esteem. Consequently, they fantasize about and put into play grand schemes that will make them appear significant in the eyes of others. When these actions fail to impress their associates, they begin to think of themselves as a hero with a great mission to accomplish.
Men and women who have narcissistic tendencies based on their intellectual abilities or scholarly achievements may be labeled as “Cerebral.” Those who base their narcissism on the shape of their body or other physical assets may be labeled “Somatic.
Starting with my father for example: he fit the Elitist subtype described here pretty well...not exactly in the social climbing aspect...more in business and the drive for success and money. He was definitely the more covet type where the underlying issue is based on shame. He also had some of the Unprincipled traits as well which I believe came more from his past but later didn't fit as well later in life after he married my mother.
The woman that I encountered fell perfectly into both the Unprincipled category and the Amorous one with elements of Borderline and some Histrionic disorder as well. She was very good at doing what she did and experienced at it to. She would also be labeled Somatic according to these descriptions.
I'll come back to finish and talk about this some more............
I'm back, sorry I was drifting late last night and I could see myself becoming a bit scattered here before:)
and to be sure I'm still in the same context where we started " that children are already narcissistic and so someone cannot become so later" about children becoming Narcissist and continuing to move forward with the same train of thought, bear with me please:)
So......it was pretty easy to pick my father and my past relationship out of the a number of others Narcissists since they shared some similarities but were both very different. I specifically wanted to use them in this discussion because I know a lot about their childhood upbringing...(back to Narcs as children) and the fact I've had my therapist help me dissect them in relationship to me
Side note: this was for that very purpose being... not trying to figure out what was wrong with them but more where I was wrong with me wording it that way. I'll come back to this for sure.
I knew how they ended up for sure....what I learned more from this was now they got to be this way. This gets right down to the concept of your true self and false self....or better, your integrated self which is the key component I feel in trying to explain my thoughts.
I believe ( which means this is up to my own personal interpretation instead of reading it out of a book...also completely left open for critique and correction! ) that in both cases I used...the cause of their disorder originated from some severe childhood trauma and abuse which I do know about. Less important in the detail but more about the effect. Based on my premise that there is healthy Narcissism and unhealthy Narcissism I'll try to demonstrate that here.....and still maintaining that we all started out by being normally Narcissist as children.
Basically....my understanding of the term "mentalization" refers to the feedback loop between your ability to process emotions,self and others in complex ways in order to socialize and interact with each other with continuity between self and another person. Which gives us the ability to empathize. I believe with Narcissism ( and specifically my examples ) this ability was been corrupted or perverted in such a way by the pain of their abuse and trauma....that they lost connection or split off from this ability ( their internal feedback loop) out of psychic defense and protection.
I could use a clinical explanation here but I wanted to recount what I say and explain how I observed it....again, in my own words.
You stated.."while narcissists are also selfish and selfcentered, they cannot be narcissists without a clear knowledge, that the surroundings are not amorphous, but are filled with distinct persons, who compete for resources."
I have to disagree with you here.....or at least by definition. Replace distinct persons with distinct "objects" and then say they are aware of the "object" instead. What's amorphous is their false self.
In the case of the woman I encountered ( for the sake of argument I'll call her the ex-girlfreind of egf) I witnessed her ability (over time)to continually re-invent her self at will. Later I realized this was solely based on her mood in the moment and her emotional state yet.....she could pull out of this also at will when needed and become a different person entirely.....to take on a role as needed? It appeared at first as being shallow or superficial but became increasingly concerning to me because it began resonating something similar to my father in more specific ways. My red flags were starting to go off but I did not know how to recognized or interpret them.
More simply put is that appeared as she was acting a part or role but with no consistency to it at all. The part that resonated was the part that was based in the moment on her emotional state or mood. She was a moving target and it became increasingly difficult to pin her down and have a conversation with. That part was the same as my father which I was very familiar with. And the results were the same in both cases......reactive anger that was completely disproportionate to what was happening in reality??? But more specifically when I would attempt to corner (either one) in a conversation in my attempt to follow or make sense... and then finally being very direct in observing what I was seeing them doing....saying many times and old default learned in conversations with my father " I know what your doing here" or "I know what you are trying to do here" or "who do you think you are kidding? or something like that. It hadn't occurred to me that I learned these phrases from my father who use them himself. The reaction were overwhelming similar and at times extreme.....anger or personally attacking. Little did I realize at the time I was calling their false self out or by showing them how phony and pretentious they were being....exposing or threatening to expose their wounded true self. In their case, the true self that they denied and cut off and removed from the normal loop or emotions and "mentalization" that a healthy integrated person has ( and takes for granted) out of protecting themselves (or their psyche) from the shame, hurt and unresolved negative emotions that (IT) carried within.
"It" is a good term for their true self. Their conscious self or the one they created is the only one they are aware of....the one that's being presented to the outside world. Without this active feedback loop...all cognitive processing is disrupted because they have no concept of their other half. No communication between the two because to a certain degree...it's been split off and is separate. "IT" being a thing not a person. "It" was the enemy here. Their false identity, fake facade, projected self...however you want to say it...is the one you or I are having the conversation with. The false self or "persona" exists only in their heads and it was created the same I guess you'd say as a person would sit down and write a script for a play. You are not a person....you are a created role which serves a purpose only to the play. You are an "object" or a "thing". Things are not people. Things don't have rights especially if you are the director. Things don't talk back....try and change the script....or have boundaries. Rules do not apply to things. You can do whatever you want to a thing because they only exist to serve you the director of the play. Things don't get to have boundaries...things don't get to have feelings....things are for you to use and dispose of as needed...like a piece of used Kleenex.
But mostly things are there for that person as a dumping ground for all bad emotions or feelings via the "true self" which is the enemy anyway How convenient? This happens because the disconnect between the feedback loop for processing and resolving the painful emotions has been short circuited so to speak.
And you the "object" or "thing" is just an extension or role in the play in their head....the one they control to fit their mood or emotional state of anxiety and is dependent of how well you play your part whether you get the dumping off of or projecting of the painful emotions ( that are perceived as coming from you of course) or behave yourself and fit your role...and learn your lines and stay in line.
As I had come to understand this better...as I saw it with my egf....this is exactly how it appeared however....I recognized this pattern from before and eventually came to the same conclusion that this was a deeply engrained pattern. That and I also recognized the feeling that were coming out in me and feeling pulled back into a pattern that had this vaguely...then later remarkably similar feeling in me that I also knew was not good. My processing too had become irregular feeling plus I started to notice a change in myself....becoming increasingly nervous and angry with a sense of foreboding that I knew but wasn't able to connect at the time exactly....also starting to watch my behavior change too as I said.
All of this took place during the aftermath of my divorce, being diagnosed with ADHD and grieving the loss of my marriage which in laymen's terms was being "ripe for the picking" for a person like this. As I processed through my loss more and more is when I began to become more aware that something definitely was wrong.
I the "object" in this case was a "mark" to be taken for and taken advantage for that purpose only. I was lucky in many respects as it could have been worse mainly out of my experiences in the past which were much more innocuous than this excepting for the one I had growing up which acted in this case as the baseline for the old feelings.
These two experiences were based on this type of Narc...referring back to your comments and Standings which left me with the impression that a person with this type of NPD is aware of what they are doing and to whom. I hope my example clarified this some.
Of course the person you see in front of you is awake and talking to you and knows who you are....I'm saying, they haven't a clue who they really are since it's a virtual concept in their head and you are not a person but an extension of this false (phony, make believe ) ideal self image....This is why everything has to have a label for context including for themselves. It's where the "I am XXXXX" come from...wierd out of context self proclaiming statements that appear disjointed and out of the blue. I remember looking over my shoulder and saying "who are you talking to?" with another Narcissist I knew which was never much appreciated. I had an ability to sense or recognize what was happening in context even if they didn't...but my response to this was passive aggressive for the same reason as a way to try and get the to see it too. Not saying I understood this the way I'm saying it here...but intuiting it never the less and not liking it at the same time. I didn't know any better? I also didn't realize that many times...the anger from them would come later instead of right then in the moment. I have more to say on the reasons why I think that is.
Anyway.....everything has to have a compartment or special place to fit and if it doesn't fit."IT" has no value. The triage or culling system in their head only registers...good or bad. Bad goes straight to the dis -owned bad self and then out the projection door...good stays only if it has value. You are not a you...you are an "IT" and they (the true disowned bad and disconnected self ) is serving another master...the ideal self image. In reality, you are really you and the ideal self image is amorphous since it is constantly being reinvented based upon the disowned self which is stuck inside the disconnected feedback loop somewhere...the perpetual "mentalization" disconnected feedback loop....like a broken record.
In the case with my father...."IT" meaning "me" didn't make a good extension or didn't fit into the role I was supposed to have. Ultimately, this is exactly how I felt about my self too when I was young but mostly only while I as around him. Not fitting or of no value. The rest of the time (around my sisters, freinds, team mates, other families, etc) I didn't feel this way.
The reason I didn't make a fitting "object" in his eye had a lot to do with my ADHD ( being rejected or criticized for it) so from this perspective it's hard for me to say there is a correlation to ADHD as possibly causing a person to be Narcissistic even having been raised by one ( going back to the other extenuating circumstances too).
But again....I'm talking about this subgroup. The overt group or Compensatory as I learned from Standing....is a different story. They are aware that their surroundings are not amorphous. They appear to feel the need to be and truly think they are superior, above you , better than you etc....out of feeling inferior and low self esteem.....actually being aware of the feelings but still processing or better filtering it so it comes out feeling better to them. When Standing brought this up I realized that I a former coworker that I knew fit this extremely well as he appeared to be Narcissistic in some way and not in others ( the type I was used to) I know nothing about his background or childhood to have a clear picture to this.
I do remember however, that in many ways I resembled this profile during my teens years but it diminished over by time by my mid to late twenties. Now wondering if this is not part of the adolescent immature male stage of development in part? Back to normal or appropriate ( to a degree) for someone in this age range? I don't know? I was slow to grow ( late bloomer physically) and behind in maturity across the board compared to some, less than others?
I also wanted to mention the :feed back loop and myself here. This picks up in part about the delay in anger response I referred to and being stuck in the loop. This thinking was something that I came up with and ultimately arrived at on my own a long time ago ( as a teenager) and has developed since then. This is purely observation about myself but I suspect it has something to do with this topic.
I remember reading the book on the stages of grief Death and Dying by Elizabeth Kubler Ross when I was in high school and it resonated deeply within me.....the processing and stages of grief (7 stages). It seemed unknowingly familiar to me yet I didn't know why? Not until my first break up (first love) until I experienced this for the first time....yet still I found my way through the process even though...there were stages of it I never really made it through:
SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.
PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.
You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.
You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")
"DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.
During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.
More 7 stages of grief...
THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.
ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.
Denial — As the reality of loss is hard to face, one of the first reactions to follow the loss is Denial. The person is trying to shut out the reality or magnitude of his/her situation, and begins to develop a false, preferable reality.
Anger — Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. The person in question can be angry with himself, or with others, or at a higher power, and especially those who are close to them. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"; "Why would God let this happen?"
Bargaining — The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow undo or avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Other times, they will use anything valuable as a bargaining chip against another human agency to extend or prolong the life they live. In essence, the individual cannot totally move into acceptance yet acknowledges the fact that what has happened cannot be undone. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise. For example, one may say "Can we still be friends?" when facing a break-up. Bargaining rarely provides a sustainable solution, especially if it is a matter of life or death.
Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the grieving person begins to understand the certainty of death. Much like the existential concept of The Void, the idea of living becomes pointless. Things begin to lose meaning to the griever. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and sullen. This process allows the grieving person to disconnect from things of love and affection, possibly in an attempt to avoid further trauma. Depression could be referred to as the dress rehearsal for the 'aftermath'. It is a kind of acceptance with emotional attachment. It is natural to feel sadness, regret, fear, and uncertainty when going through this stage. Feeling those emotions shows that the person has begun to accept the situation. Oftentimes, this is the ideal path to take, to find closure and make their ways to the fifth step, Acceptance.
Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, individuals begin to come to terms with their mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. This stage varies according to the person's situation. People dying can enter this stage a long time before the people they leave behind, who must pass through their own individual stages of dealing with the grief.
This happened again and again at different times in my life and began to see a pattern that I recognized in other place too. Each time I went through it...it became easier, less painful and a shorter time to process. Later I also had one glimpse of why it was familiar originally....I had done it before and never realized it but in a bigger more global way...(the forest from the trees) this pattern was a re-occuring pattern or cycle that appeared through out my childhood experience. I could see each stage in my past and when I was in it.....this was over a number of years. And even within the overall cycle....there were smaller cycles of the same exact pattern. It wasn't unitl I was in therapy and slowly coming out of denial that I recognized it again. Each emotional issue I was attacking and working went through this exact process ( the 7 stages). I could see it everywhere now! It was a universal archetypical pattern within that defined the process of how are brains and psche deals with complex emotions and feelings at the subconscious level....thinking "this woman was a genius!" Kubler-Rosses model was the frame work or blue print to how our brains function in this way. So cool!
But now going back to myself and applying this...I could see as a child...it took years to get through only one cycle or all 7 stages simply because I hadn't developed the ability to do it in shorter period of time ( although I had found ways to get through some stages better or faster than others) And there were some stages that I really struggled with....and a couple I found that I kind of stuck in or never really made it through at all.
When I compared these stages to the places in my life that I had the most trouble in......what do you know? These were my problem areas the ones I never made it fully through to completion.
OMG THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now going back to the things I just said about Narcissism...true self....false/ideal self ....and the ability to process complex emotions and feelings.....Thank you ladies and gentlemen, we have a perfect fit! Vuo la...abbra ca dabra!
The inability to process painful emotions is directly tied to this internal process. People get stuck during the process...in the moment when it is called on to do so and where ever you are in the stages is as far as you get emotionally.
As a child...I only could get so far emotionally at any given period of time in the stages. This is normal child development. And at any given stage...there are stages in the process that are missing or incomplete....the ones where childeren fail to accomplish well or at all...are the difficult ones. The conflicted complex ones that require a fully integrated person ( you'd hope) to help them through and we all understand this without question. This is what role models and care givers do. They help children learn how to accomplish these stages of emotional processing by repetition and example. A normal child has all the faculties and potential capacity to do this and on average....we all do this at approximately the same rate until we reach a certain age when we get "cut free"...to go out on our own and do this everyday...to integrate with each other....socialize....work.....play....get married and have children and then teach them the same things.....teach them how to process these 7 stages of complex emotions to be a fully integrated functioning human being. In the ideal world.....a person should be able to do this spontaneously without even thinking about...and we do however......not perfectly! Also not always in the moment when we really need to.....sometimes there are time delays!
And those time delays go right back to the stages in the process where there's a malfunction....it's where the process gets stuck or stops ( like a child )....or gets delayed or slowed down. Like a computer with to big a processor with not enough ram.....you need ram to process information and the 7 stages are where this is needed.
So in my model.....the super ego that is the feedback between the subconscious (ID) self...and the (ego) conscious self get disconnected (stops) at a certain point in each one of these stages in the extreme covet sense of Narcissism.......
Or...... malfunctioning and consistently failing to completely make it through the stages or makes it through by "faking it until you make it" for the Compensatory Narcissists as a pattern or pathology ....which is exactly what they look like. Faking it but doing a really poor job at it. " Fuck UP" would be another term...kind of pseudo confident..sort of inept, nerdy, awkward, with a kind of obvious inability to really get anything right but just squeaks by despite themselves. Still managing to function OK sometimes.... to just barely at others.
So what I am proposing here for your consideration is this.....a normal child is Narcissistic because he/she hasn't had time to develop the ability (hard wire) into their brains to be able to process emotions fully or completely ( getting through or partially through the 7 stages) in order to become fully integrated yet.
I'm saying that they "APPEAR" as Narcissistic in behavior and emotionally as viewed from the outside and for all intensive purposes are Narcissistic for this reason. This is normal and appropriate and we don't use Narcissism or Narcissistic to describe them since.....we reserve this definition to have a different meaning therefore...by definition it doesn't apply as we understand it's common meaning.
A Narcissist or having NPD in the extreme sense...is someone who has an inability to process (7 stages)..or malfunction in this process....to make it through or gets stuck in one, two, three, or more of these 7 stages....... spontaneously in the moment or otherwise ( my example of these stages in all things as a universal pattern: stages of human development, times of stress and duress ( grief)........ in a seemless manner without having to think about (automatically) as a response or reaction to other people or their environment.....on a sub conscious level.
Newtons law..of Motion. for every action there is a an equal and opposite reaction
The terms 'action' and 'reaction' have the unfortunate suggestion of causality, as if the 'action' is the cause and 'reaction' is the effect. It is therefore easy to think of the second force as being there because of the first, and even happening some time after the first. This is incorrect; the forces are perfectly simultaneous, and are there for the same reason.
When the forces are caused by a person's volition (e.g. a soccer player kicks a ball), this volitional cause often leads to an asymmetric interpretation, where the force by the player on the ball is considered the 'action' and the force by the ball on the player, the 'reaction'. But physically, the situation is symmetric. The forces on ball and player are both explained by their nearness, which results in a pair of contact forces (ultimately due to electric repulsion). That this nearness is caused by a decision of the player has no bearing on the physical analysis. As far as the physics is concerned, the labels 'action' and 'reaction' can be flipped.
'Equal and opposite'
One problem frequently observed by physics educators is that students tend to apply Newton's Third Law to pairs of 'equal and opposite' forces acting on the same object. This is incorrect; the Third Law refers to forces on two different objects. For example, a book lying on a table is subject to a downward gravitational force (exerted by the earth) and to an upward normal force by the table. Since the book is not accelerating, these forces must be exactly balanced, according to Newton's First or Second law. They are therefore 'equal and opposite'. However, these forces are not always equally strong; they will be different if the book is pushed down by a third force, or if the table is slanted, or if the table-and-book system is in an accelerating elevator. The case of three or more forces is covered by considering sum of all forces.
A possible cause of this problem is that the Third Law is often stated in an abbreviated form: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, without the details, namely that these forces act on two different objects. Moreover, there is a causal connection between the weight of something and the normal force: if an object had no weight, it would not experience support force from the table, and the weight dictates how strong the support force will be. This causal relationship is not due to the Third Law but to other physical relations in the system.
This helps explain my list in part when you also apply the 7 stages in processing to get a predicted outcome in behavior based on all other factors as is described here for causal misinterpretation.....patterns, contradictions, consistencies, relevance to time and space( chronologic stages of development and environment) to explain behavior. In my list I was trying to only isolate one consistency in predicting Narcissism = being contrary or contradictory. Black, white, good, bad, yes, no, positive, negative
This the last link in the chain of causality. A person or child who appears selfish, self absorbed and not caring is not necessarily a Narcissist yet the tendency for someone looking up a list of definitions or descriptions in a book or on the internet is to make a check list and say a=b b=c then therefore a and c are equal. This excerpt just explained this better than I ever could thanks to Newton. They say he probably had ADHD....ha ha
And what you have consistently missing ( in opposition of ) is the ability to have empathy which is one of the higher level complex ( integrated) emotions that people are not born with as a child but learn to develop over time.....is Narcissism in an adult.
The other way to describe this could be as a betrayal ( going contrary) to ones self.
I do not intend to argue
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on Sun, 11/02/2014 - 21:34
I do not intend to argue about it. But in my perception, children are selfish and selfcentered but not mature enough to be narcissistic.
Submitted by JJamieson on Mon, 11/03/2014 - 00:13
we are all this way to start with. We also have some kind of care giver (normally) to help us control and maintain our inhibitions and misbehaviors.
Just Remembered Something...following my last post to you
Submitted by JJamieson on Mon, 11/03/2014 - 05:01
Super ego...fruedian model....childeren are all narcissistic because of an under developed or immature super ego. That's what I'm calling the feedback loop......I'll come back and talk some more to finish later
Also.....I really appreciate any input to the things I'm saying and I won't argue anything here on my side. These are all just my own conclusions to that helps me makes any sense of this topic as it has frustrated me to no end for obvious reasons....it has helped me put some of this stuff ( and my past) finally to rest and move forward. Just saying:)
Submitted by JJamieson on Mon, 11/03/2014 - 18:11
Here's where I make a stab at your original question Can Narcissism Cause Co-Morbid ADHD? My answer...
I don't know. I don't know if the side effects of having ADHD like in my case...Narcissist dismissing, critical,punitive parenting can do this??
There are some theories that copying or mimicking a parent who is this way will in turn...cause the child to be this way too. In my case I'm claiming this didn't happen with me. My copying or mimicking was for one reason and that was to fit in with other boys especially in competitive sports. It was also ingrained in society at the time. That's different than the more unaware Compensatory version. I could choose to be this way or not. As a teenage boy...this worked and didn't work and when it back fired I knew it. I felt ashamed and embarrassed at the time which meant things were still working .
From everything I have come to learn and know about these issues...there are a lot of theories and speculations and it just isn't clear yet. It does appear however....severity and the length of time a child of some age....expereinces one or more of the suspected causes and never has the chance to grow or remove themselves from the cause long enough to break free of the pattern until it takes hold and gets hard wired.
From everything I've learned about ADHD...it's hard wired from the get go. NPD gets hard wired after the fact. I'm sure there is a relationship but I think it's more of an overlap than it is a linear one but as I was saying with all of this....there are too many things to consider.
I had a college professor once say." there will be a time when you will have to make an assessment and judge yourself one day. It a requirement in order to succeed and if you cannot do this then you will probably fail."
I believe this now if I didn't before. A Narcissist cannot judge themselves so no matter how successful they are at doing something....they will never succeed at being a human being.
I've had to judge myself more times than I would have cared to but.....I've done it....not always but I have. My conclusion....I'm doing OK. If I go back to the 7 stages I was talking about...the last one of acceptance says almost exactly the same thing. My answer to this is.....right now it looks like I made it too the last stage and I'm feels OK.
What I wanted to say about this Narcissism thing that people ( including me in my past) don't appear to understand is this. Every one is a Narcissist. Being diagnosed as having a problem with Narcissism or a malfunctioning in there ability to process complex painful emotions is different. They live at the other end of the scale but it's the same one we're on too....we just live further down from them ( hopefully).
If you didn't have this side to you you are not alive and breathing. It's part of the balance that needs to be in existence in order for us to have emotions. There can be no concept of good if there is no bad to compare to. Your brain has to weigh each option it's given against these two choices and come up with some kind of compromise between the two in an instant,'
Narcissism in my view happens when these internal weighing abilities get thrown off specifically.....taking the bad ones out and tipping the scale so there are only emotions without pain involved...and the resulting "unihibited" or "untempered" child like behaviors and thinking are a result in each case. It's a form of regression without having ever gone forward.....even if that person believes they have ( the false self thinking here) And that;s what you see.
Instead of having a genuine fully processed emotion to work from.....emotions come in the form of a replacement or alternative. Instead of empathy and compassion they get replaced sympathy. I know this one because that's what I saw associated with love...feeling sorry. Negative emotions do not feel like Love. I needed to learn this because this was not an example I had to learn from. At times...these things became very confusing???
A victim needs sympathy and if you've got that for yourself...that's what you've got to give.
Narcissism is all about what's missing. The unmet needs that it still needs.
If things are needs then they become a requirement and are demanded as absolutely necessary for survival. Things it feels entitled to have in a self righteous way. "I need this so therefore I must have it or I won't be OK" " I need this at all costs or I won't be OK" " I don't need to say I am sorry because I needed this to be OK." I don't appreciate something I need because it's essential to my survival.""I expect to have this because I need it to be OK" "I demand you give this to me because I have to have it since I need it or I won';t be OK."
Needing things makes you needy. It makes you fearful in case you won't get it.
If you change need to want...then within that this says there is a possibility that I may not get it and you will be OK anyway even if you don't. Wanting something motivates you to go get it for yourself. Once you get something you want...your appreciative and feel satisfied.
Narcissism is part of being needy.
Insecurity is part of Narcissism in the fear you won't get what you need.
These things we all experience and when we do we behave like Narcissist whether we realize this or not. Pathological narcissism is just someone who acts like this all the time.
Frank Zappa said "(girls) you can be an asshole too.....don't pretend you don't got one on the bottom of you." :) this applies to everyone just in case. lol