Submitted by Brindle on 04/24/2019.
How much is rigid, inflexible thinking a part of your ADHD partner’s life?
Rigidity in ideas plus the quick-to-judgment reflex and an impatience/intolerance for thinking things through thoroughly... those are what I see here, and wow. This is one area that threatens to kill our relationship in more and more ways.
I’ve observed that rigidity causes the most trouble for him in the relating to others, rather than habits or perfectionism.
What about your ADHD partner? How does that rigidity affect your marriage? If you are divorced or separated, did rigidity in any way play a role in the demise of your relationship?
What comes to mind for me..
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
So - for context, this is the definition I'm basing my thoughts on: "Cognitive flexibility has been more broadly described as the ability to adjust one's thinking from old situations to new situations as well as the ability to overcome responses or thinking that have become habitual and adapt to new situations. As such, if one is able to overcome previously held beliefs or habits (when it is required for new situations) then they would be considered cognitively flexible. Lastly, the ability to simultaneously consider two aspects of an object, idea, or situation at one point in time refers to cognitive flexibility." from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_flexibility
With that in mind, a lot of the behaviors I saw in my ex were ones that seemed to return to this deeply held belief that he could not do certain things, that other people were the problem and therefore they should be the ones to fix whatever it was, or that things would simply "never change" no matter what and it was useless to try.
Some examples of statements I heard often were:
"that's just how it is"
"this is what I've always done"
"this is just how I am"
"you/they should just know how I feel"
"that doesn't matter"
"that won't change anything"
"there's nothing I can do"
"that won't help"
"that's never gonna happen" (as in "I refuse to do that")
"I shouldn't have to do that/explain that"
"that's not my problem/that's your issue" (or her issue or their issue)
... and on and on.
Even when it was a situation where he could 100% make a difference or affect change by taking a different action, (or taking any action) he was convinced it would not work. Evidence, examples, discussion or suggestion would do very little to change his mind. He would pretty much just automatically reject other peoples viewpoints, opinions, or experiences and instead become dismissive, judgemental and condescending.
Instead there was a lot of blaming and judging other people for problematic situations that involved him. ie: We're having this problem because - you're insecure, they just don't get it, he's just lazy, she can't take care of herself, you're keeping things unresolved, you just don't like me, they have ocd.. etc. Not because of something he might have done, or a way he might do something differently going forward.
In addition, he fully expected others to behave the way that he felt they should... and when they didn't do what he expected them to, he would get frustrated and angry. He most definitely could not put himself in someone else's shoes in order to see a situation from their perspective.
This belief system made any sort of growth or change impossible. No cooperation. No flexibility. No ability to consider alternatives.
More often than not, the result was just him lashing out and giving up.
It absolutely played a huge part in the demise of our relationship. There is no way to partner with that mindset.
Close Cousin - responsibility
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I could have written this same response. What came to mind for me was the recent post about taking responsibility. The point was that people who don't take responsibility deflect, tell you it's no big deal, that's just the way it is.... etc. To me, inflexible thinking is closely related to not taking responsibility. These things absolutely had a lot to do with the demise of the marriage. My ex didn't take responsibility and I was vested in him taking responsibility. Therefore, I was always frustrated. Similarly, not having a fluid or self-aware mind truly and completely got in the way of making headway in relationship problems. Both parties need to take responsibility and consider another point of view.
Another close cousin to the rigid thinking, in my mind, is the reaction against perceived criticism and/or uncomfortable feelings of any kind. It short circuits useful discussion and problem solving. The rigid thinking can cause shutting down.
I always heard "no one ever told me" as if he should have a permanent side-kick to tell him stuff that most people figure out as they go through life. He could never figure out that people figure stuff out! I guess he thought everyone else had a secret life manual or playbook. I also heard a lot of "What was I supposed to do about x....". Geez, I don' know. Apply common sense?
In my case, it seemed to be all intertwined - lack of self awareness, lack of taking responsibiility, lack of empathy, lack of fluid thinking, lack of desire to change (this is who I am, deal with it). All in all, I have been struggling with feelings of shame for having put up with it and not realizing what was going on earlier. These are not things healthy relationships are built on.
Totally agree..
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
As I was pondering the question I found it challenging to untangle what may be rigid thinking vs. refusal of accountability vs. resistance to perceived criticism vs. inability to self-reflect/self-question vs. inability to plan, adjust and problem solve ... and so forth. I feel like they are all very much intertwined with each other.
Wonderful posts....(Thread)
Submitted by c ur self on
Every thing you are pointing out here about the working of some people's minds, is just that...There are clinical reasons behind why this is so prevalent in many of our spouses....I'm not making an excuse for it....It's crazy making, and completely destroys the ability for sane, calm interaction...I"m just saying there has to be a Psychological deficiency that sponsor's it....
My theory: A person w/o the cognitive ability to quickly and rhythmically comprehend emotions or life situations (can't relate in the moment) will most always experience frustration to the point of negativism...(Especially with a spouse, someone they feel comfortable letting their frustrations surface with) This uncertainty cast upon them in the moment will always be responded to in some way....I think you ladies have named many of the worst responses....Some others may be, fear, turn silent, verbal rambling.
The hardest thing in the world (IMO) is to not go into denial about it....(defensiveness, and self protection mode) It's a fight for their normal....Very few people are self aware enough to speak calmly about their inability to feel the right emotion at the proper times....Or tell you, "I'm sorry, you lost me, Or, I'm not able to follow along with the details you are laying out about your situation.....
Frustrations will rise up in them just as fast as they do in us.....Because they can't know what our normal feels like, no more than we can know what they are feeling...Even though they see it in action w/ others everyday....It's not theirs.....So we get the rigidity, we get the you should no statements, that's just the way i am statements.....And they are correct!....It's just the way they are....We must accept it...Or not...LOL....You can shake oil and vinegar all day, but it's not going to mix....But, we can accept that, and dump it on the salad, and eat...:)
Just my theory based on studying my wife, and all the responses you guy's have listed here.....I've gotten them all from time to time.....With us...."We say it best, when we say nothing at all"
c
excellent
Submitted by Jon on
I was pleased to read this post. It showed an uncommon amount of willingness to understand that is not all that frequent here sadly . In all the years here, your comprehension of what you are dealing with have obviously come a LONG way, and I would suspect that you have been able to find more peace of mind in life because of it. That is to be commended.
Hello Jon
Submitted by c ur self on
It's not the marriage relationship I would chose, or thought I would be in....And, people can change, (all of us) if we care enough, and are willing to do the work it takes....I find it best to just accept our differences...Be respectful of them, and set boundaries to avoid conflict, even if that means we have very little interaction....
I hate it, but, it's the only way for us anyway...We've tried counseling...I've tried pointing out the intrusiveness and lack of concern....But that just causes more conflict.....Much of the things that give us the most trouble isn't add/adhd...It's just excusing independant living
I'm tired of begging her to consider her ways, and to put herself in my shoes....I'm just going to let her come to me....Show me she cares....I'm just going to live.....I want be hard to find if she wants to come along side me, and share in life w/ me, as a wife.....
I hope all is well w/ you Jon...
c
I can relate!
Submitted by Jon on
"It's not the marriage relationship I would chose, or thought I would be in" No, I can see that would be the case, and I can certainly see it with my partner. It's like a tar pit trap, once you realize the ground you are standing on is not at all firm, it's too late. If it's any consolation, it's not the relationship I would have chosen or hoped for either and I am the ADD one. Fact is I think if you are ADD that relationships that share living space ARE hard. I actually am not at all convinced I can do it, nor if I have the energy or wherewithal to keep trying in the face of what has for me personally been 25 years of less than ecstatic relationships. For me it's virtually ALL about the living space. I for one can't stand being told what to do and feeling like no matter what I'll never meet expectations, and my wife is beside herself that she feels she has to be the organized and structured one all the time. It's an old story with which many here I am sure are very familiar. I have got the the point where really I just want my own space without the constant sense that I will never make the grade. I have realized that I don't need to. I just need to learn how to live with myself and accept the many things that I cannot change, no matter how much I may want to. A person can't change their wiring. I have spend too many years beating myself up, and going over and over the same things in my head endlessly without resolution. At some point we all have to accept who we are and learn to live in the skin we are given. I think maybe for some of us we just need to accept that we will never have 'normal' relationships in any traditional sense. It's just not possible. This is a bitter pill to swallow for sure. But hey, If you can't change it what can you do?
If I could undergo some magical surgery and have this thing go away, for many years, most of my life probably, I would have jumped at it. Now I don't think I would. There is some element of not being 'allowed' to be the person you were born in most people with ADHD I think. It comes from a lifetime of not meeting the expectations of 'normal', and it's not like many other disabilities, it hides and has no shape or form and we become experts at hiding it. It is only to be expected that the bulk of the non ADD population are going to ascribe all manner of character failures to it. I can't really blame the world for that. Ultimately while it is ignorance, with no small amount of desperation to go with it, it is mostly it's not deliberate or malicious ignorance, and to me at least that matters.
Your anecdote about preparing dinner made me laugh out loud, this has happened to me *many* times. I also frequently don't get dinner organized until later than my wife feels is optimal, and am also prone to eating as I make it and then not being at all hungry when I sit down. I graze feed and have always been lousy at set meal times. We ADD people mostly just don't get time. For me it's almost a complete bizarre abstract commodity. I can't for the life of me project into the future, and the passing of time itself is often distorted such that sometimes big chunks of it goes by without me even realizing. Other times it's painfully slow, and the effort to stay focused, present and awake are all consuming. And I think there is some time allocation/blocking problem some of us have, so I struggle to schedule a series of tasks with overlapping start times, like for example preparing dinner lol. My way around that is to stay focused on one task at time *intensely* which may be why many of us are so bad a multi tasking!
Anyway, life just keeps rolling on, so all we can do is to try to hold on as best we can I think!
This is a very valuable post Jon....
Submitted by c ur self on
There is really no way to place a value on a conversation that is built around calmness, truth, mutual respect and reality....You and I have done just that on this web page (IMO)....
My wife and I have never been able to do this, except in maybe little bits and pieces....Communicating verbally about the way our mind works, our strengths, or limitations....Takes humility and a ton of Patients and Grace....Plus no one really wants to admit to their spouse that they know in certain area's of life, they know they are difficult to deal with....It takes something special in us to be able to see ourselves and calmly discuss the things that are real, that we have no real answer for...People tend to want to push for a *FIX*....So because we are at a loss on how to fix/change what feels normal to us, we end up avoiding it all together, or slip into denial to a degree....These type conversations where many things have to be left opened ended...Are difficult!....Personally I will take the open ended honesty over the denial any day, and twice on Sunday!!!
People who can talk about their reality, are usually OK w/ setting and respecting boundaries, in order for both spouses to have as peaceful of life as possible....(limit the conflict)....
Once we move past denial and blame....And, can humble ourselves, we have a chance!
c
My ex-husband is one of the
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My ex-husband is one of the smartest people I know. Really. But he also seems to lack cognitive flexibility. He's not good at problem solving. Fear is part of it, I think. He's afraid of being wrong, so he frequently does nothing. After he was fired, he didn't look for work. He did take jobs that were handed to him or arranged for him. When our marriage started going downhill, he didn't do anything. I wanted him to fight for me and for the marriage. Nope, too hard, too scary, required creative thinking.
I just got into a fight about this last week
Submitted by Dagmar on
All my husband does is wait for things to happen to him, and I can't convince him otherwise. It's exhausting. He never quits any job, and when he eventually gets laid off, then he doesn't look for another job unless it's handed to him. People like him, so it does happen, but it's so frustrating. Right now he's working in a contract position and they're probably going to hire him, except this is the third time at this job where they were going to hire him and then didn't. His commute is horrible but he just won't even look for another job. It is so frustrating.
Love this thread
Submitted by daizzebelle on
Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. My H is smart and funny but he seems to lack what I would call Adulting skills. When something goes wrong you figure it out. That's what adults do. He does not persist in finding a solution when a problem is not quick and easy to fix. He quits. He then ignores the problem for as long as possible hoping that I will be unable to tolerate it forever and I will finally step in and do something. He avoids taking responsibility at all costs. I've tried to explain to him that giving up and doing nothing has consequences; he can't avoid everything by refusing to take any action. He seems very determined to prove me wrong. A small example: refusing to buy light bulbs to replace the burned out ones in the bathroom. He was fine with showering in the dark. (No natural light in our bathroom). I wasn't.
A bigger example: he decided not to to work last summer. His choice of course but every month he comes up short when it's time to make his tuition payment for coursework that is required for his job. So he sells stuff on eBay. Stays up late into the night photographing items and listing them and he is constantly on his phone watching the auctions. As a result he is not getting enough sleep and he is not getting his assignments done for his coursework. You would think that he would have a job lined up for this summer right? Nope.He doesn't.
Cause and Effect
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
I'll throw "Inability To See Cause & Effect" in there as a close cousin as well.
It's clear to me now that my ex could not wrap his head around the "if this, then that" portion of cognitive flexibility. There was a massive inability to connect how his behavior influenced an outcome (and therefore learn from mistakes) as well as a deficit in the predictive nature of anticipating outcomes.
He often seemed genuinely surprised when something went badly even though, to me and others, it was a highly predictable outcome. And then he would panic or get angry and the blaming would start.
To me, this is the inability to imagine different scenarios in your mind, which relates to that rigid thinking in that - if you can't visualize and anticipate the end game around multiple courses of action then you can't (or perhaps won't) make a choice.
So... you either:
- Dig your heels in and do nothing. (maybe hoping it will go away... maybe hoping someone else will do it for you)
- Dig your heels in and insist that certain choices won't work/are stupid/are not your responsibility. (perhaps because you can't visualize it or perhaps because you're pissy about people "telling you what to do", even if that's not the case)
- Choose a course of action that doesn't make much sense in the long run or has unintended consequences that you couldn't anticipate, and ends up biting you in the ass later. (Like sleep deprivation from staying up all night to sell stuff on eBay, heh)
Somewhere a long time ago
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Somewhere, a long time ago, I read a research article that described the difficulty people with ADHD have with access memories about previous situations and using it to inform actions in current situations. As I recall, that ability we take for granted is undeveloped in some fashion. I wish I could find the publication. You and I can say "Oh, that didn't go well for me last time." so , let's try something else or don't do it at all, etc.
I don't know how to describe it. I can pull up a mental picture and replay an old experience in my mind and compare it against what is currently happening. I don't think the ADHD brain does that well, or hardly at all, perhaps.
Hindsight and Foresight
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
May have been a paper or lecture from Russ Barkley, perhaps? He's got some Youtube presentations that discuss this facet of the executive function impairments.
It may have been
Submitted by vabeachgal on
It was either from Barkley or it was a hard core research publication. I can't remember.
I will look for that later today
Submitted by daizzebelle on
Yes, my H doesn't remember anything. I guess in a way it is a blessing for him...he doesn't remember that we've had the same argument about the same issues over and over and over again for the last 13 years...it is super frustrating for me but I guess it makes it easier for him to live with me bc he doesn't remember all the bazillion times before that I've gotten angry about the same old stuff?
This is the 3rd summer that he is choosing not to work despite the fact that he will once again not have enough money to make ends meet next year. Mind boggling. But I guess if he has no memory of past mistakes there is no possibility of learning from them.
Same arguments.
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
My ex realized we were having the same arguments over and over, at least in the moment they were happening again, he just didn't seem to comprehend why.
Or hell, maybe he did.. but was so distracted every single day that he didn't realize how much time had passed until everything was blowing up again and then he'd panic in the face of the same crisis since he has no ability to anticipate anything.
I dunno. Either way ... you're right... it was mind boggling.
On more than one occasion he screamed "NOT THIS SHIT AGAIN!!" at me (so he was clearly aware) but somehow he didn't seem to connect the dots around the fact that this was going to keep happening so long as no progress was being made.
Yes, we're still arguing about the fact that you are not making progress on your divorce... because you are not making progress on your divorce.
Yes, we are still arguing about the fact that the house is falling apart... because the house is still falling apart.
Yes, we are still arguing about the fact that you're in financial distress.. because you are still in financial distress... and instead of putting your resources toward that, you just went and bought two more motorcycles, 6 luxury dress shirts, and $700 worth of high end whiskey.
He would then attempt to blame shift onto me for being impatient or insecure or whatever...and I was like no dude... it has nothing to do with me. It's the fact that you're not handling things. If this was a job and you didn't complete the your action items, you'd be fired. This is no different.
And then he'd swear up and down again that he was going to take care of things and then get mad when I didn't believe him, stop speaking to me, throw fits, threaten to break up with me.. all manner of nonsense.
It was endless. Until I couldn't take it anymore. We've been apart almost three years and it's all still the same. He never learned either.
Have to say...
Submitted by daizzebelle on
Glad you are out!! If my H threw fits or made threats we'd already be divorced by now. My Ex husband abused me and I left him.
My H goes silent. It is super frustrating. We tried therapy twice with 2 different counselors and each time he barely said 2 words...I am not exaggerating. The 2nd time I got up and walked out because I was so frustrated. The counselor was asking him a question and he just sat there in silence.
I don't see any way to work this out. He gives me nothing to work with.
She can be very rigid
Submitted by bowlofpetunias on
My wife has very fixed ideas of what should be and her anger is often the result of the conflict between should and is.
Our son and daughter are six years apart and both have ADHD and other issues. They don't get along very well.
My solution: Let them have their own space apart from each other, but try to be an appropriate parent to both separately.
Her solution: They SHOULD be the best of friends! Let's force them to do activities together.
Result: Kids fight more, and that causes her anger to boil over at the kids and/or me.
My wife has been a big fan of the "kids should only have X amount of screen time per day." She insisted that we BOTH monitor our son 24/7 to make sure he did not get in any extra second of time with the TV or games. This resulted in our kids finding any way possible to sneak screen time--including taking electronics from locked cabinets, from our room, or from our cars. Electronics became the forbidden fruit that is so much more tempting precisely because it is forbidden. My proposed solution years ago: As long as they get their homework and chores done, let them use their free time as they see fit. My wife then responded by criticizing my parents for letting me watch tv and play video games as much as I wanted. Keep in mind that I wound up getting a Ph.D. She resisted and resisted and resisted for years and years. When she finally agreed to relax the rules, our son did not trust her to follow through, so he kept sneaking them whenever he could.
For years and years she kept insisting that we were going to Disney for vacation--despite all of the financial problems that kept coming up. Disney, Disney, Disney! What happens when we actually went? Nonstop talk about the next trip!
Another big problem was vaccinations. She jumped on the anti-vaccination movement before our son was born. I tried and tried using logic and science to refute the arguments ("People don't get measles any more." "That's because so many people are vaccinated.") She "compromised" by delaying the scheduled vaccinations. After our daughter was born, she wanted to use a particular pediatrician. When she told him about her vaccination views, he replied, "Oh, you can do that. But you will have to find another pediatrician."
If something doesn't work, you must not be doing it enough. Yelling at the kids doesn't work? Yell louder!
Rigid thinking and kids
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
Wow - this really resonated with me. My husband absolutely can't seem to modify his parenting style despite the fact that it is completely ineffective with our daughter. She is ultra sensitive and he berates her more and makes jokes at her expense as though it might "toughen her up." All it does is make her avoid him and cry in my arms behind closed doors that he doesn't love her. I have talked to him about it and her reactions and it's like he doubles down on his strategy rather than easing off or even trying to see who she is or why his words upset her. I just don't get it.
Luckily, he has no follow through, so for things like screen time, bedtime, vaccinations, etc., I can call the shots. Sometimes he disagrees, but I have learned he does not know how to consistently enforce anything so I just do things my way. I tried for years to include him and it was crazy-making. (That has its downside, too... parenting is 100% up to me, which is as exhausting as it is rewarding.)
Meditation for the win.
Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on
I think it happens when emotions get hijacked, and I would also add that cognitive flexibility CAN be developed. I've been doing daily meditation for a while now, and I have more pause before saying something I haven't fully thought out. It really prevents the blind clinging to an idea through a fight where I can't remember from moment to moment because I'm digging in AND I'm flooded. Not sure if that makes sense... In fact, the other day, I noticed I was getting hyperfocused, and I decided I needed to go for a run to switch gears. It worked. And the funny part was that I was hyperfocused on doing a next level purge of my entire house to simplify my life (Shocking secret: I really don't enjoy cleaning). I just know my brain likes EXTREMES, and I had to get it back to "normal" once the task was complete. That's the first time I've controlled the hyperfocus, instead of it controlling me.
Meditation is really changing me. I can't believe there was a time in my life where I thought it was nonsense.
So yes, we can develop cognitive flexibility and we can learn. I would also add that in my case, my H is the one who lacks cognitive flexibility. He's definitely not ADHD or on the spectrum, but I am now certain he needs a mental health evaluation to screen for anxiety and/or depression. So while I agree that ADHD often has a component of stubbornness, there are other types of brains that experience this as well, for sure. Hope this helps :)
devils advocate
Submitted by Jon on
I am going to play devils advocate here. Who is to say who's thoughts are 'rigid' ? I don't suffer from such rigid thoughts for the most part I don't think. I have well formed perspectives sure. But I am always open to alternatives that I see as viable or potentially productive. I also do not suffer from an inability to problem solve. In fact I am bloody good at it and have made a reasonably tidy living doing exactly that. In fact my ADHD to me is a MASSIVE part of why I am good at it. I don't constrain myself to ideas of 'normal', I can work things out in ways that are outside the box that others don't seem to be able to, because in MY view, it is neuro-typical people that have rigid and inflexible ideas. They are the ones that constrain themselves by rigid and conservative ideas on the way things "ought" to be. I don't. When issues of chronically low self esteem come into play, which they ALWAYS for ADD people, then what you might perceive as rigid and inflexible thinking may not actually be that. It may simply be a life time learned response to self esteem stripping criticism. You have to remember that a BIG chunk of living with ADHD involves rampaging emotional instability. Where sometimes tiny or even misconstrued criticism is interpreted as personal judgment and ultimately rejection.Our learned life long response to that is exactly as many of you have described, a visceral, sometimes aggressive going on the offensive, or a defensive "this is who I am" as a way of preserving any sort of self image, it may include a refusal to acknowledge feelings of empathy because in our mind by your very criticism of us and our core dysfunctional attributes screams to us a lack of understanding or empathy and we ALWAYS play a risk adverse 'you first' approach when it comes to human relationships. We have learned, again and again that such things are hard, many of the subtle cues of social interaction we simply do not pick up. It's only once it's too late, and then we are embarrassed, humiliated and generally defensive, and the old " here we go again" mindset kicks in. We do this exactly to place the people we love and who are MOST capable of inflicting great personal pain on us at a distance so that the criticisms don't sting.
Awesome Jon...So true here......
Submitted by c ur self on
Your very statement here is why we can't/don't gain grown on commonality....Corrective criticism is a myth when it comes to verbal exchanges with my add spouse....Who isn't blind to her life style (messy, hoarding, seeking to control, frivolity mind vs responsible minded, etc)....She has many friends who are organized, who can stay focused long enough to put a simple meal on the table in 45 minutes, where everything is done at the same time....vs... 2 hours and much of it ice cold because she put the 15 minute stir fry on the heat, the same time she starts her 50 minute dish in the oven...But she is human like me, with feelings like me....So the low self esteem that comes along because she knows she is different, (struggles w/ the status quo) only gets worse when like you said, the people she loves points it out....
Acceptance! I was terrible early on....Rigid!....She would be full by the time a meal got done....She eat standing at the stove as it cooked most of the time....So because I wasn't use to that, I labeled it wrong, "We should wait and set down together"....Just a simple example of what you are saying....
So many times the lack of understanding and acceptance creates internal conflict in us, (that we puke out on each other) just because of how we perceive differences....Well, the real trouble starts when we decided to fix it...LOL.....
c