My 20 year marriage has died largely as a result of undiagnosed ADHD/Autism spectrum (high-functioning) on the part of my spouse, along with the coping and camouflaging, and the PTSD she surely experienced as a child growing up in an undiagnosed ADHD/Narcissist/Histrionic/Anxiety/OCD household (her parents and siblings). We have two adolescent children. Her denial strategies are deep, deeper than our marriage. She is otherwise smart and sweet and mostly a loving parent, within the limitations that her condition brings, such as gaslighting the kids, being quick to rage, and some of the same impact her hyperfocus and task inertia and inability to connect emotionally had on me.
But I am stuck in this, I have long ago given up on trying to help her discover her condition and acknowledge it, so my role is to be a "parent" to her (typical spouse of ADHD strategy), and my goal is to continue to co-parent under "in-home separation" as long as I can. I do not trust her to be a sole parent in any joint custody arrangement, and I believe divorce would be worse for our children than staying together, for the time being at least. Also, I am not without my own emotional challenges, so the one thing we do well for each other is tag-team when one parent is unable to deal with the kids in a healthy way.
I have gone 20 years without sex or intimacy or emotional partnership. I stayed loyal and did my best the whole time and never cheated. But I don't want to die lonely and sexless. I want to feel a loving touch without rules, a whispered word without restraint, a sense of connection and continuity that lasts more than a day, and a collaborative sexual partnership again before I am done on this earth.
One big challenge is that her highly-practiced camouflage strategies are very effective at deceiving other people, she seems to many people to be very calm and thoughtful, successful at work, etc. This is all true. but obscures the fact that she comes home and falls apart, and lives in a world of severe symptoms of the above that in the end led to her being utterly passive and passive aggressive as her marriage fell apart. She sure as hell fooled me (actually things got worse as she got older, and definitely worse after we had kids). I am, by comparison, very human in wearing my emotions on my sleeve, and my coping strategy is to acknowledge issues and get them on the table vigorously, I have a low threshold for denial and unacknowledged dysfunction. (so we are a tragically inappropriate mix).
So, at root, her family is deeply in denial about mental health issues, and has built itself around enabling them and never acknowledging them. My quiet, compliant, and watchful spouse slipped under the radar in the chaotic and unhealthy environment she grew up in. Those patterns were too ingrained to overcome in adulthood. But acknowledging her mental health is essential to continuing whatever our relationship turns out to be, and will certainly become an issue in a divorce (I use this term "mental health" as short-hand for the mix of mental illness, cognitive challenges, and PTSD/coping).
I have so far suffered this alone. But am starting to wonder if reaching out to a family member of hers might help in the long run, regardless of which way we go. I am worried that at some point, she will go on the offensive and flip to rage mode, and also that she will use her camouflage skills in ways to play the role of "wronged saint" that will lead to a lot of unnecessary ugliness. Having a family member of hers informed and involved might help smooth some of the worst parts, and might actually help her to acknowledge and to seek help.
There is a sister, and aunt, and a friend I think I could reach out to. I would lay it on the line: I need your help keeping this together and navigating the next steps. It's a bit of a minefield of course, but I will eventually be putting her cognitive issues on the table and in the open, so it's only a question of when and how that happens. I am pretty sure each of these people has at least an inkling of what's going on, and presented with the evidence would come to see that my insight is probably reasonable. But of course I could be wrong. Denial is powerful.
I have utterly failed to find a way to get her to acknowledge herself, even as her marriage failed; the worse the marriage got, the more she was passive and checked out. In fact, I became "the threat" and she actively alienated me. Perhaps a family member might succeed where I failed. Her emotional world, her coping strategy is built around telling herself she's "normal" and "fine" (her words), which she repeats like a mantra. Despite volumes of evidence that something was not working, she resolutely refuses to take the lid off and actively seek out explanations and remedies.
It's time for me to recruit some help.
Oh, gosh, I could have
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Oh, gosh, I could have written much of this (substituting "husband" for "wife" or "spouse"). I'm not sure I have anything useful to offer, but I'll think about it and respond again if I do come up with any suggestions.
I knew this too
Submitted by adhd32 on
Family matters have a way of backfiring when in-laws are involved. Family members tend to circle the wagons because, in addition to criticizing their family member, they feel they and the rest of the family are being criticized. Sometimes the one person you think is on your side defends the problem person and blames you. If you are hoping that together with these people you will get her to see and acknowledge her ADD, you will be disappointed. After years of this life I can say she won't change so you have to decide if this is enough.
Agreed it's a longshot
Submitted by Martin7 on
I understand that blood is thicker than water, and when a marriage goes south, the family almost always circles around itself and alienates the non-blood member. The people I would reach out to are the ones who are a bit outside the family dynanics and possibly able to see it. The way I look at it, this argument is going to happen either now or later. Either at a pace and framing that I choose, or in a more adversarial possibly litigious setting later. So I don't have much to lose by trying. If nothing else, I can plant a seed of awareness. I have no doubt that she will continue her denial even more rigorously going forward, and will almost certainly go through a rage period when I actually initiate formal proceedings. So I need allies if we have any hope of making it through this without tearing up the kids' world, even if it's only a couple people on her side who have at least heard what I have to say. Sometime, some day I hope, for her sake and the kid's sake, she wakes up and thinks, gee maybe I should go get some help. A diagnosis of cognitive challenges and PTSD would be a massive first step.
They can't help you....
Submitted by c ur self on
IF you've been doing this 20 years...My heart breaks a little for you...The family's usually will not be accepting of your reality (they see what u see when your needs are out of the picture)...They know see is broken, but, they love her, and have no idea what your life is like...Some might, but, would not be the rule....I'm in similar relationship...Probably older than you....I finally decided it was OK to leave...I told her I wanted sex twice a week...I don't get it, but close probably on average 6 to 7 times a month...(sometimes she is into it, some times she a victim, you know how that mind works;)...
You need to think about what is healthy for the family, ALL of you!....I suggest a good marriage counselor and boundaries....
I know you understand "acceptance of her reality" even though you feel forgotten abandoned and left out....Many of us know, we are with you friend...But she can do better....Is she a believer? Does she have any convictions at all to be a wife?
I will pray for you today?
c
Negotiating sex like doing the dishes
Submitted by Martin7 on
Yeah, we tried negotiating a plan for sex. This was before I had a better understanding of her condition. She proposed that we could go from once every six months to twice a week of scheduled sessions. Just like that. I felt like we were dividing up household chores. In any case, I was looking past the frequency and wondering what was the point of twice a week, when our sex involved a lot of limitations about how and when and etc., and I wondered if she is going to go rigid when I touch her, or lose interest halfway through a "session" and simply stop. Sex did not bring us closer, it actually highlighted the issues and put them front and center. So I pretty much decided that no sex at all was actually better than the perpetual uncertainty of broken promises and the occasional awful sex. Without her acknowledging her condition, making a deal about frequency would be just one more promise she'll soon break.
We tried counseling a couple times. She is way too practiced at her camouflage, playing the poor meek wife who sets high expectations for herself and only wants to do her best. Too which they'd all cluck and there-there her. Since back then I was in an absolute panic trying to figure out what was going on in my world (she was gaslighting me badly back then), I came off looking pretty whacked. The "experts" were useless, it was like they'd never heard of any of this before. I'm pretty sure this will be the same script for the divorce, with me in a panic trying to argue that she's not fit to be a sole caregiver, because she is so deeply in denial about her undiagnosed condition, she's badly gaslighting the kids, quick to rage, forgetful, disappears into her hyperfocus and task inertia, etc.
No we are not religious. She is a decent person at heart I think. It's impossible any more to know what's her character, what's buried under PTSD, and what's a mask though. And no, it's as if she has no model whatsoever for being a spouse. That's part of the shocking part of this all, behind the masks there's just a vast vast emptiness. It's basically non-malignant psychopathy, where a person's empathy and hopes and dreams and connectivity about love and intimacy are supposed to be, there's nothing. It's not small, or broken, or incomplete; it's empty. That's the really weird part, you pull of the mask and don't find something to work with; you find nothingness, utterly passive, a blank stare, a limp body. As the saying goes: there's no there there.
The following seems to be
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
The following seems to be your main concern, understandably: "I'm pretty sure this will be the same script for the divorce, with me in a panic trying to argue that she's not fit to be a sole caregiver, because she is so deeply in denial about her undiagnosed condition, she's badly gaslighting the kids, quick to rage, forgetful, disappears into her hyperfocus and task inertia, etc."
What might help is one or more of the following, not necessarily in this order: 1) documenting your wife's behavior, 2) documenting ways in which you've tried to help her, 3) getting your children into therapy, 4) getting yourself into therapy, 5) collecting or making copies of financial records and legal documents.
I think it's okay to reach out to a member of your wife's family, if you present it as "I'm worried about wife. Is there anything you can do to persuade her to seek treatment?" But leave it at that. The person might do something or might not. The person probably will support your wife during the divorce. The person might recognize your wife's problems and support you during the divorce. But those things, aside from the initial contact, are so far out of your control that it's not worthwhile to spend more time than you already have thinking about them.
Thanks
Submitted by Martin7 on
That sounds about right
(I felt like we were dividing
Submitted by c ur self on
(I felt like we were dividing up household chores. In any case, I was looking past the frequency and wondering what was the point of twice a week, when our sex involved a lot of limitations about how and when and etc.,
I will share the problem I see with you....You are expecting her (someone that is mentally challenged) to be able to think like you...You aren't asking yourself the real question...***What is possible in our relationship (marriage) with the way her mind works...And the way my mind works? You have her well diagnosed, and maybe rightly so for the most part...BUT, it want help you come to any kind of unity and agreement, when the reality is, you have huge differences that will never change....So unless you are willing to love and work within the confines of what is possible, you will only live an unfulfilled life of expectations....
Also when I asked if she was a believer, I was speaking about relational w/ her creator, not religion, huge difference...
My life and marriage only got better when I started accepting what is possible w/ her....When it comes to sex, does she have to treat it like an appointment? most of the time, yes...Does she try to avoid it at age 58 because she has much less desire now than I do at age 62...Yes...Do I see fretting and a victim attitude many times while I'm trying to focus on the beauty of the act...Yes...It's part of it!...It makes me really appreciate the times she can relax and stop her mind and her victim thinking long enough to enjoy us.....Life will never be as easy and normal for her, as it is for you....Because she has no capacity to think, feel or behave like you....
When I learned to accept her, and what is possible...It brought me a lot of peace and the ability to think and live the life I wanted....Many men and women (most of us in my opinion) who have spouses that we can't attach with like we need to....Lose themselves, and spend countless years, allowing our lives to be dominated by trying to force change, on what will never change....Can she change, only if SHE see's the need, and only if she will do the awareness work when it comes to her tendencies.....Most will not, they love their comfort zone, no matter how intrusive and unproductive it is for relational living....
I hope you can find acceptance, and find peace with your own existence....No matter what she does....
c
This requires acknowledgement
Submitted by Martin7 on
Thanks.
Yes, early on I was trying to understand my relationship in the context of relationships closer to the middle of the bell curve. At some point I came to realize I was working with something else. However, to maintain an actual loving relationship that has a hope of at least partially nurturing my own needs, there is a baseline threshold requirement: that she at least acknowledge her condition and its challenges, and show a sustained and earnest attempt to mediate it. Anything else is not a marital relationship, it is caregiving.
That's not the direction our relationship took. At the juncture where recognition was possible, she went the other way, identified me as a threat, and alienated me. She dove deeper into the denial and deeper into her own camouflage strategies.
I have long since stopped trying to change anything. I have been in maintenance mode for years now. I am working on accepting her, but that entails also accepting that I am only going to find reward as a caregiver, and to a lesser extent as a coparent, not as a partner.
The peace I have found is that I am doing what I have to do with a bad situation to provide stability to our children. And to accept that something about my own self allowed me to enter and stick with a relationship with such low expectations for reciprocation early on. (Although in my defense, part of the pattern is the "initial focus early/later emergence of neglect" cycle. But in hindsight I clearly missed a lot of red flags.)
I will accept her better when I am free of her, until then, I am watching my vigor and potential slip away with increasing regret, caring for an ungrateful unknowing child, who resents me every step of the way. And who's camouflage skills mean that our friends and families view me as the one with cognitive problems.
What has changed recently is reminder of my own mortality, of the limited years I have left on this earth. And of how I completely surrendered my own hopes and dreams and needs, and gotten literally nothing in return (excepting of course the kids). I have lived lonely and alone in my challenges for two decades now, and I am running out of gas for it. The second thing that changed is that the kids are reaching an age where they can recognize and challenge her behaviors themselves, and so the pattern is repeating and intensifying with them. So I am reliving the pattern, this time with higher stakes.
making decision-making more clear
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
Unfortunately I can directly relate to the decades of your life draining away trying to keep a denying ADHD spouse 'stable' enough to keep all the other family 'balls in the air'. The depth of the loneliness and sadness is difficult to describe (and few non-ADHD supporters can relate). Your kids need you, your wife needs you and you need you (except you might feel you've morphed into a drone you don't recognize.) Getting therapy with a counselor who supports ADHD-spouses can make a big difference. Having a professional who immediately 'believes' your story can make decision-making easier (but not easy).
The Killer is surely the denial....
Submitted by c ur self on
I want offer any more advice, because simply put, you are living my life for the most part...And i understand the emotional, mental and physical strain....(I've had to be healed from all manner of anger, bitterness..etc...) Denial destroys any ability for improvement in any of us, for any reason....There is no helping anyone who is fine :)
This word you use "caregiver"....One thought; if you or I, or one of our spouses ended up in a wheel chair...Being a loving caregiver would just be part of it...Wouldn't it? Hopefully anyway....How does that play w/ an unobservable brain malfunction? Are we going to accept it as a disability? I think so...But the good thing about a wheel chair, you can't be in denial of it's existence....If our wives woke up in the morning, and could talk openly and calmly about their tendencies, and the fruit their lives are producing, and what they plan on doing to recognize and combat the behaviors...(Ownership)...I don't know about you, but, I might be in such shock, I might just break down and cry for a week :)
Take care of yourself, and your children....I'm learning to force accountability in her, by not picking up behind her, or baling her out....(I don't share much of anything w/ her, that could and has caused conflict..lots of boundaries!) I use to do it, just because I hated to live in such disarray...But w/ boundaries and learning mess's want kill me....She has improved...Also the critical thing for me was to stop pointing it out....It's just who she is, and there wasn't any use in beating her down verbally thinking it's not....And I'm much more at peace....
c
When does 'caregiver' become 'enabler'
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
A question is when does the possible concept of 'caregiver' become reappraised as 'enabler'. I feel the latter moves to the fore when your bedraggled hope dissipates. 'Throw me a bone' is not the same as a loving relationship.
I've thought about this for a while
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
Now that I have read some of the other replies to your post, I know what to say.
When it comes to family, namely your wife's family, you cannot expect them to support you or be " on your side". They are her kin, and their first loyalty is to her.
In my situation with my ex-husband, near the end my in-laws saw what he was really like with me. They were eyewitness to his explosive anger and rage towards me. This was the first time that anyone outside of he and I saw the abuse.
Did my in-laws stick up for me? Did they tell him stop being an asshole and help your wife? No they didn't say a damn thing. Even when they knew what he was doing was wrong they did not come to my defense. Even as I lie on a cement patio wind knocked out of me with a crack in the cast I had on my right foot, they offered no assistance. They just stood there and watched. I rolled over, got on my hands and knees and pulled myself up with the aid of my crutches.
I don't know the words to say that will help you. I can't suggest anything to you that could improve your situation. Counseling for you perhaps to talk things out with an impartial third party? I will certainly pray for you. As many others have said on this site and in general, you only have control over yourself. The only person you can change is you.
Yup
Submitted by Martin7 on
I am pretty sure that's how it plays out. But all I can do is hope by planting a seed, perhaps at some future quiet moment, they'll intervene for their own reasons. I do think the family is starting to wake up to the damage that denial has done to themselves. They are not in denial about their mom's condition, but they are in denial about its impact. Her mom's full-blown narcissistic sucking oxygen out of the family prevented them from seeing anything else but that rolling train wreck. Some of them are now starting to notice themselves and each other. When the sweet obedient child suddenly gets divorced and the ex-husband says that their family history of ADD and aspergers and PTSD - and denial - has been passed from grandma to mom to daughter, a couple of them will have an "aha moment" I believe.
Divorce is about dividing assets; build some sanity
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
I just finished going through this. Divorce is about dividing assets in a relatively fair manner. That is the purpose and the goal of the judge and the system. Attempting to 'try your wife's ADHD' will fail unless you have arrest records directly tied to her symptoms. If she's an expert at masking her symptoms in public you will get nowhere. I am lucky in that most of my kids are out of high school and are old enough to recognize the 'strange behaviors' they routinely see from their Mom are strange indeed. Your wife's family will certainly 'circle the wagons' and 'defend' her (even if that just means not openly siding with you.) They all always remain part of the 'family'; your separation from their world diminishes your relevance. Your children still remain part of that 'family'. Gnashing your teeth at this realization won't achieve much. Focus on building an island of sanity in their lives as your family splits. It all sucks but use that as a motivation. Good luck.
As Melissa notes it is not ADHD that ruins marriages, it is denial of the impact of ADHD that ruins marriages. If your wife refuses to take responsibility for acknowledging her ADHD (and comorbidities) and consistently managing her ADHD symptoms it is unrealistic to expect any positive changes in your marriage. YOU can't successfully manage her symptoms. It is sad but it is also a truth you'll see echoed throughout the posts on this site. I desperately wish it were different but, in my experience at least, it is not.
Thanks
Submitted by Martin7 on
The goal is to stretch the in-house separation and co-parent a little longer. The asset part of the divorce is not the concern, it's the custody. And her issues and family history will absolutely be on the table if I can help it. As I wrap my mind around the fact that we are transitioning to the end-game phase, I will certainly seek legal advice on ow to make this as smooth as possible, without shooting myself in the foot.
Heck, I 'm not confident I can convince my OWN family that she's camogflauged autism all these years.
It's more like proving a negative: prove that she escaped the childhood history and all these red flag behaviors without picking up some problems.
I would tread lightly
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
Just adding my voice to the many that have cautioned you likely won't gain much ground by appealing to any member of her family. Only you know them and the situation best, but I would be wary of doing it. You say divorce is not what you think is best for your family right now. By speaking with members of her family, first of all, they might not keep what you say to themselves (most people tell one other person a secret... who then tells another person...) and it may go further than you like it to. Also, even if they do take your side and want to "help," that help may backfire by alerting your wife to the fact that you have one foot out the door (once you give them any information, you have no control over what they do with it). And if you don't want a divorce right now, that could be a bad thing! Like another poster, I think I would gather evidence instead (if you are concerned about custody). I do this. I hope I never need it, but I might. I take pictures of the mountains (no exaggeration) of clothes/papers/food wrappers piled halfway up the walls of his room. I note my responsibilities while he has little to no involvement as a parent. I have videos of him texting and driving and dates when he left stove burners on, doors unlocked, etc. I note his hours out... coming in at 4 and 5 a.m. It's awful, but seeing her in his custody is not something I can allow to happen in the event of a separation/divorce before she's old enough to have a significant voice in custody.
I can relate to your post in almost every way as the non-spouse. I am so sorry for your pain.
Thanks
Submitted by Martin7 on
My wife already knows. I have told her we are in an in-house separation mode. This will probably accelerate the end. But it was not a secret I could keep to myself any longer.
I have thought about seeing an attorney. I am sure I've already shot myself in the foot a million ways. That's one major downside to being the one in the relationship who is focussed on the relationship, rather than focused on controlling the perceptions of people around myself. She's way way better at that than me.
Attorney
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
I totally understand what you are saying. I just wanted to mention that I saw an attorney and found it beneficial. I went to a therapist for a while for myself and she recommended that I go because of my questions and fears about custody (where I live, 50/50 is almost a default judgment). She made me realize that a consultation isn't a divorce... it's just information gathering. She also said that hearing an expert's take on my circumstances would be better than fearing the worst. She was absolutely right. Now I am better versed on what courts typically award, what weight the child's voice plays in custody and how I might approach challenges specific to my situation. I am in exactly the same place as you are... I finally see that I don't have to settle for this forever and that he will not change, but I also know that he is unfit to parent on his own, which leaves me in this very unpleasant in-between. Seeing a lawyer didn't necessarily give me what I wished I would hear, but it allowed me to construct a reasonable timeline and plan. Good luck, Martin.
ADD is Hereditary....
Submitted by RalphMarx on
I have read through all these comments regarding seeking the aid of the in-laws for bringing sanity to the situation. My wife has untreated ADD, diagnosed and blatantly obvious to me. I know her 4 siblings and father fairly well as they live close by. They exhibit many ADD traits themselves based on the father's side of the family. Their upbringing was a war zone impacted by the relationship between their ADD father and non-ADD mother. I see ADD behaviours in the nieces and nephews....it is truly a family tragedy. But it is normality for them. They do not see these behaviours such as physical/verbal abuse as abhorrant behaviours. Seeking the assistance or advice of the in-laws will only fall upon deaf ears. I HAVE had intelligent discussions on the subject with the partners of these ADD-affected spouses. They themselves didn't really understand what it was that they were going through. Too often it is too far down the road to do much. You cannot get them to change...they have to want to change themselves. I think though that it rarely happens to the extent that you would want it to. I think that there are many of us on this forum that cry inside wishing to have a normal, loving, kind relationship......
Thanks
Submitted by Martin7 on
Aside from accelerating the end stage prematurely, I don't see the downside for taking a calculated risk and reaching out. One way or the other, I am going to bring it up eventually, and they are going to be dealing with it however they choose to. On the other hand, the possible upside is I find an ally now. Who might reduce the eventual battle perhaps a bit.
I do like the idea of reaching out to spouses. That's one of the reasons that I said her family is starting to emerge from its veil of denial. There are spouses who certainly notice the same things I have.
Preparation is also needed
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
I might suggest consulting an attorney first and working to 'get your ducks in a row' regarding what your post-marriage goals are. Involving her family may be 'lighting the fuse' and things can start moving like an avalanche. You have little time to contemplate after it starts.
Thank you
Submitted by Svlacca25 on
Your post summarized ALOT of my feelings in our marriage. I am the non ADHD spouse. Our 10 years has been a struggle and we are temporarily living with my husband's parents, your description resonates. We have a 6 yr old son who has shown signs of impulsivity and beginning to understand what is happening. He has started to understand all the conflicts.II too would love more attention, more affection, and more connection with someone to love. Divorce would really harm our son AND the reality to stay is a daily defense of what unplanned, unorganized, eruption of emotions. Staying on my path of happiness will be the best way to get a hold of stability, autonomy, and balance in my life. I spoke to an attorney and we discussed ALL my options, legal rights as a women in Italy, AND what the courts would prioritize for the welfare of a child. I do KNOW my spouse can not parent himself so it would be a waiting period BEFORE. Planning is my freedom at the moment OR the days may become better.