I am so angry right now and I am not an angry person. Just need to vent. Backstory: I left my ADHD husband due to temper in April. He didn't chase me, made me pay for it, didn't look for me just "woe is me, who did you tell" arrogance. Anyway, I came back and things have slowly been better with his temper although he is still neglectful and everything else that ADHD'ers do. I have grown and am dealing. 25th anniversary sucked but that was also payback for me leaving. Anyway, my sister had to kick her 18 yr old daughter out and has been a mess today. He has known her since she was 12 and its 25 yrs later. She is my best friend. My husband and I were having a nice day chatting on gmail and I simply asked him, as a human and comforter of all people in distress that he is as a charmer, party starter, motivational speaker to others except himself, if he has text my sister. My idea was to say "thinking of you" etc since she has been in pain and crying all night and day. HEr husband is kind of insensitive so I thought a nice text from her bro in law would be nice. Here is the convo. I am so hurt to the core. Funny how I thought things were better but he holds things in and waits to bring them up in an instance like this. This man is intelligent, has a high IQ, is a poet, comes to the aid of MANY damsels in distress, helps the widows and orphans EXCEPT when it is someone that has left him, hurt him just like he has written off all his BEST FRIENDS who supported my decision to leave. I am so disappointed since I am always hoping for him to do better, bending over backwards, compassionate, put myself in his shoes. Everyone says I am a saint and that he is obnoxious and too much yet I continue to try. I just can't stand arrogance. Any ideas, input, feedback, observations would help.
Me: Have you text *** at all?
H: No. I figured I'm not qualified to speak on the subject of errant children or non responsive husbands.
Me:What?
H: Sorry, you asked if I had texted ***.
Me: I did. I was not expecting that response.
H: Sorry, I wouldn't be able to provide any help and, as you know, I sometimes say the wrong thing in these kind of situations. So, best for me to stay out of it. I learned my lesson with your other sister and her kids.
Me:Never mind. I wasn't asking for you to lecture or give advice.
H:I would not want to lecture or give advice. Hello?
Me: Yes?
H: I just thought I lost you.
Shame that he took my chances at finding my soulmate. Thank you for reading this and letting me vent. Been a while since I was so upset and disappointed.
Your husband's comments in
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Your husband's comments in this conversation are an example of the type of behavior that make me think our spouses know exactly what they're doing when they claim to be clueless.
I spoke to my husband about
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
I spoke to my husband about how his comment made me feel. His response: Since this year (when I left) he has nothing of value to offer anyone. He has disconnected from his family, my family, his long time best friends. He is self-absorbed. I told him that he never runs out of things to say when he is in public. He incessantly talks. He can come home and tell me how his bosses mom is in the hospital and he feels so bad and on he goes. Yet, those people are not SPECIAL to us. He disconnects from anyone who ever supported ME in my decision to leave or has ever disagreed with him. He does not fight to win back a relationship even if it means ceding and saying sorry. Which explains why he didn't chase after me when I left, send me a rose, ask where I was living or if I was ok and has NEVER brought up the issue again not even to ask questions that I know he has about the day I left in the night without telling him. I told him that life is short and tomorrow loved ones can be gone or forget about you because YOU have disconnected from them. My therapist said that if he can be a hero to people that don't really know him, he will. But as for true friends and family who know who he is, his reality is inescapable and unpleasant. So true. Very sad for him. Where will his boss and other generic people be for him in 10 years? Gone. HIs reality is very sad. I told him that he need not worry about condoling my sister- we are a strong family and my good friends have been consoling her all day. No lectures needed from him or words of wisdom, just simple "I love you and am here for you". So now he sulks but at least I got it out, no yelling just straightforward like an adult to a child. I slept alone until he came in at 1AM. I feel so liberated and strong. This is truly a game changer. I have been back 6 months now and continue to do such nice things for him while he continues doing nothing unless I ask him. My leaving did nothing but get him a one day visit to a therapist to tell him he has ADHD (among other things) and now he can let his mean streak show to me and anyone else, his pride is hurt and he has disconnected. ANd that is how he will be remembered, as a prideful man, no humility, wasting valuable time that could be used forging relationships with his family, my family, our long time friends and being grateful his wife came back. Instead his 90 yr old aunt will die and my 81 yr old mother will die and he will live with regret. I won't. Ahh, I am so happy I am me. I bought myself roses this morning for my work desk (white and lavender) because I am worth it. Is it wrong that I took down his picture from my desk? I eventually put it back up but some days I prefer no reminder of the man he is because it reminds me of what I have to go home to. Sad, huh? But, it is what it is.
Hi NGLM....my 2 cents worth....
Submitted by c ur self on
I am sorry that you two aren't communicating any better...No one really knows what your relationship is like but you two (and God)....I will make a point are two, not an excuse or in anyone's defense but just something to think about...Most of your comments seem to be stating he should feel and act differently or he should feel and act the way you think he should. And you are probably right in much of what you say, but, you should not attach negative emotion to that, it only hinders your peace; and the relationship...Since he decided it was best for him at this time to not text your sister, I suggest you respect his right to do so, without assigning motive...You don't have to agree, but, It's his life and his choice....
About the emails or texts....His initial comment is typical Male....We don't console, we fix...We should be better at just showing empathy like you requested him to do, but that's usually not what a man hears...
I'm not siding with your husband...But, I do understand how he feels to some degree....Keep that picture up there; and smile at it everyday:)
I sure hope your relationship can move forward...I am sure you are a wonderful person and wife...So just keep killing him with kindness...
C
Hi C Ur Self!
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
I was hoping you would reply. First off, his picture is back up but I am not smiling at it yet. I would hate for him to come in the office and see his picture on the floor in a corner. He was sick last night and of course I took care of him.
Ok, I know most males can be insensitive (not all). I don't think I would be in a rush to remarry because of this. However, I have seen him be very gentle and empathetic to others before so it's hard for me to swallow him NOT consoling a depressed family member by a simple "I love you". If you have read my other posts, you see that he is very friendly with females and can come to their aid with word and deed but this is by HIS CHOICE and these are people that don't know who he is so he can be heroic with them. Like you said, I can't force him nor do I want to since that is not sincere.
The hardest part about this all is not that he didn't console my sister on his own, but that after I express how nice it would be, he still hasn't. He does this with a lot that has hurt me. When he had his last tantrum in March, he left me in a pool of tears and shaking in the bedroom alone and KNEW I was crying and refused to come in and say sorry or console me. This made me decide to leave him and I didn't tell him I was leaving. Like a dummy, I thought he would chase after me and ask me where I was living and if I was safe and he didn't. He forgot our 25th anniversary and hasn't made up for it. And now this. I am not quite as disappointed about the tantrum, forgetting the anniversary or not naturally texting my sister to console her, I am however taken aback by the fact that AFTERWARDS, he can't do something simple that would have prevented me leaving to begin with or SEE how a simple text can change someone's day. It's like he is unaffected by my pain and doesn't then take the initiative to look at the man in the mirror and make the change, instead he walks away and forgets what he saw. That is, until it's time to vocalize how small, insignificant and weak he is. And the cycle starts again.
You are right, because I don't like to see anyone hurt (and he says he doesn't either) I make things right, immediately. I can't expect that from him because I am me, thank God. It's sad to know that someone is so lonely are broken inside that they CHOOSE to further disconnect themselves instead of LEARN about themselves and get help. HE says this is who he is, loud, obnoxious, etc. He doesn't care what people think- he said that everything people do is a choice. Yet he behaves in a way that he says he doesn't understand or mean to do. Very confusing.
So, this is just another glimpse into his mind. It's not pretty but I see the pattern. I shouldn't expect much from him anymore emotionally since he is so emotionally broken. I know that is why I am so strong, I have learned to be- because I have to be strong for myself and others without his help really. He is like the barbell that I bench press to get stronger.
Lowering my expectations is the key here so I don't get disappointed so often.
Thank you for your insight.
Your message resonates with
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Your message resonates with me. It reminds me of one episode in particular with my husband recently. Last week Sunday was my birthday. I did not receive a card, a call, an email, or a text from my husband (he lives with his parents and is their full-time caregiver). On Tuesday, I sent him a postcard saying I was sad he ignored my birthday. On Friday, he was in town for an appointment with a psychiatrist. He stopped by the house afterward. He wished me a belated happy birthday but what he then said is what reminds me of your husband. He said that he had texted one of our daughters the day a few days earlier and asked what day my birthday was. She told him. Then what did he do with that information? Nothing.
Aside from such incidents (because my b-day does only happen once per year, of course), my husband also is prone to talking about how small, insignificant, and weak he is. Yuck.
Very interesting
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
Yes mama, sounds so familiar. They hate themselves and instead of jumping off the merry go round, stay on it. But let's not let this change who we are. Our world is much larger than one person. :) We vent, cry, get angry and then we regroup and live life. Not for nothing, but I am happy you were born! :)
My husband had a free weekend Oct 30-Nov 1 and I asked if he wanted to go see my Mom and he said yes. Last week he told me that since he was off that weekend he made plans with 3 teen boys to hang out and read comic books and watch movies and the kids were thrilled. I didn't burst his bubble but 2 days ago I told him I was going to Mom's and he was so upset that he forgot. He said he could cancel with the boys since he knows that is important to ME. He said that if its not on calendar he forget. I told him I will go alone. I wish that seeing my Mom was important to HIM. But not my issue. He will ask about my Mom and my sister but that is it. No calls no text. No problem.
He said that he had texted one of our daughters the day a few da
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< He said that he had texted one of our daughters the day a few days earlier and asked what day my birthday was. She told him. Then what did he do with that information? Nothing. >>>>
I think you've written that you've been married for 20+ years. Yes?
Wow....I can't imagine being married to someone for that long who didn't know when my birthday was. I know that women are often annoyed that their H's "forget" to acknowledge their birthdays, but usually those husbands do know what date the birthday is, if asked.
Did he never know when your birthday is, or is this a rather recent development. If it is, I would wonder in med-abuse, alcohol, or something else is in play.
BTW....Happy Birthday!!!
We've been married 30 years.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
We've been married 30 years. I'm pretty sure he knows our daughters' birthdays exactly but yes, not mine.
That is so passive aggressive!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
If you've been married for 30 years and he hasn't bothered to learn your birthday, he's being very passive-aggressive. What do you think he's trying to convey? Is this some sort of sick way to "innocently" punish you?
Passive Aggressive
Submitted by jlhrva on
They don't define/view "passive-agressive" in the same way we do. I think there is often no forethought or intent behind these actions and/or lack of actions.
I'm not actually sure that the capacity for empathy (as we experience and define it) exists fully. Theoretically, they agree with empathetic concepts and concerns ("yes, you should know your partner's birthday and commemorate it", "yes, you should validate your partner's feelings"), but there is a breakdown somewhere between the theoretical concept and the actual application. Applying this concept involves setting self aside, and I truly believe they struggle with this immensely and perhaps even don't understand that they do.
I agree with this. Otherwise,
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
I agree with this. Otherwise, our spouses would be evil and I don't think they are (in most case).
"Evil"
Submitted by jlhrva on
No, I don't think that they are at all. At worst, I think that we are just dealing with individuals who truly have no capability of overcoming certain thought patterns/loops, because they are a combination of unwilling and genuinely unable to see that these patterns or behaviors exist, or that they are problematic.
I encounter this "type" of thing often with my partner. With regard to any abstract situation or outside circumstance in my life, he is the soul of supportive, constructive, tenderhearted care for me. But the second I bring an issue to the table that even touches on him or his behavior, LIGHTS OUT. Immediate shut down, sullen, defensive, combative meanness, followed by complete denial of behaving in this way. ("I'm not doing that. You're misinterpreting this deliberately."). I think he is actually, truly unable to objectively view his own behavior. He knows how he wants to be behaving, and the kind of person he objectively wants to be, but he can't square that with the way he deep-down knows he's acting, so lashing out is the response.
In a way, it's almost like challenging an addict about their drug or alcohol use. The instant, aggressive backlash is actually, literally the addiction defending itself. Just so with our ADHD partners, the backlash is the ADHD talking. It doesn't change who your partner IS at their best moments. But it does take over any moment where it (the ADHD pattern/process) is challenged or threatened.
I think you've hit the nail
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I think you've hit the nail on the head. My husband is at least well-meaning, most of the time. He lives with his parents, and his father is downright mean and cruel but refuses to acknowledge it. He lies about his behavior when people (like me) stand up to him. My husband refuses to stand up to him, in his own defense or anyone else's.
Spot on!
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
Yes, exactly because for my husband, there is no denying he has great qualities and is loved by a lot of people but when he is stuck in his own mind and thinks he is "the stuff" he is hard to deal with and turns me off. Jeckyl and Hyde, unreal and sad since others see this too. The best thing these spouses have going for them are strong people that love then and won't give up. The unaffected spouse needs to be strong, resilient, compassionate and have strong self-esteem otherwise they will have a sucky life. They MUST have self-worth and do for themselves and have a good support group that also loves their affected spouse.
jhrva...you got this stuff figured out:)
Submitted by c ur self on
This is also a man thing I think...If a husband feels he is doing his best, working; sharing at home etc...He has a hard time setting quietly and being critiqued by his wife...Pride I guess...
C...
"Figured Out"
Submitted by jlhrva on
Lol - thanks, C! Now, if only I could make the leap from (semi)-understanding it to not allowing it to bother or impact me. I want to be able to trust this man with my whole heart, the way he wants me to and the way he believes that he allows for...but I can't do that with someone who can't see or acknowledge his own lack of emotional control. I can't trust him to care for my heart and my feelings, because he will completely disregard them when irritated/upset/frustrated, then refuse to acknowledge that he has done so, and tell me it's actually MY fault for "misinterpreting" his behavior. After all, despite the fact that he's nonverbal, back turned, muttering responses, he has TOLD me that he's not shutting me out or being unkind, therefore...
And, to a degree he's right about the 'misinterpretation'...I am not interpreting his INTENT, but rather seeing and responding to his actions. Because his actions are completely opposite of what he wants to convey, but he can't control himself enough to do so.
I could try to just always assume that he "means" what I want him to mean (support, kindness, etc), but if I make that assumption, I will miss that he really IS upset about something...He also doesn't understand this dichotomy.
Me: "If there is no difference in your behavior when you are actually upset, vs when you are just mildly frustrated but meaning empathetic support, how can I tell the difference?"
Him: "So, what? Now I'm not allowed to have feelings??"
Me: "I am just asking you to communicate with me clearly, so that I can understand what is going on"
HIm: "I've already TOLD you. Why are you arguing with me? You're accusing me of not wanting to communicate with you, AND you're calling me a liar!"
Me: "I am...???"
HIm: "Saying you're trying to communicate implies that I'm NOT trying, but I've already told you that I am, so you're calling me a liar, accusing me of being dishonest and of not trying to work with you or understand you. Why do you get to say all of this about me? What about YOU?"
Me: "...but I haven't said any of that..."
Him: "Yes, you HAVE! How do you not SEE that???"
___
End conversation, usually with me apologizing for "arguing"...
(Now you know how I spend my Friday nights!)
Trying to figure it out almost killed me....
Submitted by c ur self on
Trust him and quit trying to figure it out...Your Friday nights will improve!....You post is the perfect example of someone (just like me) who wants to have a rational discussion; with a brick wall...This statement isn't meant as an insult to my wife or your husband....It's just that add minds are a tuned for protection....They here what they want to hear....The quieter I've gotten, the less I approach her with questions, the better our relationship has gotten.
I sure don't have it all figured out; but, the more I recognize that there will all ways be huge barriers that limit communication and just accept it...Things are better!....This comment may help you understand...."If I lived, communicated, came and went, answered my phone the way my wife does....I would probably be not only cheating on her, but wouldn't even care enough to hide it from her".......Now! I know for sure she loves me and is faithful....So for me to have peace in this marriage relationship I have to accept her realities and adjust accordingly....
I've told so many people when I learned to live like she don't exist our marriage is at it's best!
It's like my love for the Heavenly Father...It's by faith; I've got to have that same kind "love by Faith" for my wife...Cause heaven know's I will never figure it out:)
Our date last night was Awesome!....the play was good to.LOL....
C
Trust & Faith...
Submitted by jlhrva on
That is a tremendous amount of trust and faith you're describing! And a truly enviable outlook...free standing self-reliance.
I can't see how to trust someone who I KNOW is going to speak to me unkindly EVERY SINGLE TIME I ever try to discuss an issue that pertains to "us". For the rest of our lives.
Every morning I will have to ignore a nasty attitude, and he will even tell me it's not a nasty attitude at all, but rather my own misinterpretation.
Every time I try to communicate about something that is hurtful to me, I will just be told that it shouldn't be hurtful to me. That I am responsible for that 'misinterpretation'.
There will never be a single instance of discord that will NOT be blamed on me, and seen as a reflection of my "issues" or "baggage".
I know he is an amazing person. I admire his ethics and morality SO MUCH. Will he ever see that his treatment of me violates them at times? Will he ever say "you're right. I could so that better. I don't want you to feel hurt" instead of "But I'm not doing that, you're just misinterpreting it". Will he ever take responsibility for anything? How can someone so forthright, so rational, so kind, actually believe that I am responsible for ALL conflict, ALL issues, ALL of everything? But say he loves me at the same time? How can you love me with one hand but blame me for everything and speak to me in that tone with the other? How is that reflective of loving kindness? Would he accept me treating him this way? And how can I possibly, possibly trust someone who I already know is going to hurt me, devalue me, and invalidate me EVERY time I bring anything to the table...?
Tell him your leaving; he is just to prefect for you.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I hear you...and I also told you, their minds are attuned for protection!....Its the same here and its the same for many reading this...."Denial" It's a brick wall.... your husband isn't capable of taking responsibility for his actions and words toward you...Most I've read about, and the one I live with, is the same as you state...I've never won an argument, because there has never been a winner in our arguments...Just two losers:(
I'm not going to set here and tell you what is right for you....But, I will tell you this; the secret to peace in your spirit and your marriage is to stop engaging a man who never (never say never) probably never will be able to listen to you attentively, respectfully and then be self-aware of his own words and actions and humbly own them....A mind set in denial is the same if you spoke different languages....
I tried pressing into a closed mind for years...I'm done with it...Just reading your posts I can tell you are very smart! It will become clear to you...
C
I'm not actually sure that the capacity for empathy (as we exper
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
I'm not actually sure that the capacity for empathy (as we experience and define it) exists fully. Theoretically, they agree with empathetic concepts and concerns ("yes, you should know your partner's birthday and commemorate it", "yes, you should validate your partner's feelings"), but there is a breakdown somewhere between the theoretical concept and the actual application. Applying this concept involves setting self aside, and I truly believe they struggle with this immensely and perhaps even don't understand that they do.
>>>>
This is what I've noticed...
They can be very empathetic when a situation doesn't involve them.
Case in point: When a cancer friend of mine's husband wouldn't help her after chemo treatments, H was appalled. H repeatedly felt terrible for my friend, and said that her H was a terrible person.
However, because I have experienced situations where H wouldn't help me when I had health issues, I know that he's unable to feel "empathy" when he's TOO BUSY being upset about how my illness negatively impacts him (meaning that I can't do stuff for him!). So the fact that I am in extreme pain has no place in his head because his head is too pre-occupied thinking about how HE is being inconvenienced.
I have mentioned this before, but when I was 8 months pregnant, I threw my back out and literally could not move. I needed help walking, sitting, getting to the bathroom, etc I was "stuck" in a bent position. H was sympathetic for about 2 hours....the time it took to get me to the doctor and back home. But, once I was home and needed help (I needed a glass of water because the pain meds made me extremely thirsty), H refused to get me the water. At first he told me to wait until a TV commercial. Then when a commercial came on, and I repeated my request, he went into a rage, left the bedroom, and didn't return until morning....leaving me with no water, no assistance, no anything the entire night. Oh, and he pulled out the phone by my bed so that I couldn't call my family for assistance. I could have gone into labor that night and god knows what would have happened. When I finally told my sister about this incident 20 years later, she (a therapist), told me that that was a huge red flag that H had a personality disorder. She knew that we had gone to marital therapy before and she asked if I told that story. I hadn't . She told me that if I had, the therapist would likely have realized how mentally ill H is
So, I think that is the common denominator to their lack of empathy. They can be empathetic when a situation isn't taking anything away from them.
Unreal
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
Are you still with this man? OMG, my issues seem so small right now.
NGLM
Submitted by c ur self on
One comment about this...I have found out in my own life and mind....It is difficult to change gears once we set our plan for the day...So selfishness kicks in for most people when they are forced to change gears in midstream...ex...If my wife has planned a shopping trip; but, I decide I need her to cancel, then she has to weigh my perceived need against her plan...I will loose more often than say a friend in need...Why is it this way...You tell me? I think its our makeup...Same for me...I'm much more of a planner than she is anyway, so if I've got my hunting stuff all laid out and my alarm set for 4AM....And right before bed she hits me with something that would cause me to have to go in a different direction...It better be Important:)....
C
I'm not actually sure that the capacity for empathy (as we exper
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
duplicate
Oh MY Goodness!
Submitted by jlhrva on
Oh MY Goodness, that's absolutely terrible!! That sounds more like a narcissist than an ADHD behavior. In fact, it reminds me of how my self-absorbed emotional narcissist of a father handled my mother's entire experience with terminal cancer. All about him, what this was doing to him, how she was going to die and leave him all alone. Ignoring her, watching TV and drinking in another room.
My partner would NEVER do anything like that. He might get distracted and forget the water for short, or even potentially a long, time, but if I were ill, he would never leave me alone for the night, much less deliberately without ability to communicate. I'm sorry you had to experience that!
Same here
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
My husband has not babied me while I am sick because I am independent but when I had a hysterctomy, he helped me up and do what I had to while watching cartoons and on his laptop. Hyperfocused on gadgets but still helped me. The previous sounded like abuse and more than what I have ever experienced. Lots of men act like that WITHOUT ADHD and that is not something I could stand for.
Yes, my H does have NPD/BPD.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Yes, my H does have NPD/BPD. He has never been formally Dx'd, because he never stays with a good therapist long enough to get the proper Dx. As soon as a therapist starts realizing what he/she is dealing with, H gets angry at what he's hearing and leaves. One psychiatrist did put down that he has an Axis II PD, but hadn't yet pinned which one. My sister said it was a "working diagnosis," which is common when a clinician recognizes that they have a patient with a PD, but because of over-lapping symptoms, they haven't yet narrowed down which one.
Yes it was horrific!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
For awhile, H denied parts of it. He denied knowing that I couldn't get the water myself or get to the bathroom myself. Crazy! Then about 15 years later, he was telling our sons about that night, and one of our sons caught a major inconsistency. H admitted that he took the phone from my bedside to keep me from calling my family. When my son asked him what he did with the other phones in the house, H said that he didn't do anything with those. oops...gotcha. Our son then nailed him. Son told him that he had to have known that I couldn't get out of bed otherwise he would have taken the other phones as well. Once our son said that, H realized the truth and broke down and cried....and apologized ....took him 15 years. Part of his disorder include the ability to "rearrange facts" so that he doesn't look bad. When there is proof of the real truth, he falls apart.
that's absolutely terrible!! That sounds more like a narcissist
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
that's absolutely terrible!! That sounds more like a narcissist than an ADHD behavior. In fact, it reminds me of how my self-absorbed emotional narcissist of a father handled my mother's entire experience with terminal cancer. All about him, what this was doing to him, how she was going to die and leave him all alone. Ignoring her, watching TV and drinking in another room.
<<<<
Exactly! BTW....was your father every Dx'd?
I have said those exact words. I have told my sister that if I ever had a serious illness (cancer, whatever), I know that my H would turn it into a pity party for himself. He would whine about how I'm going to die and leave him, how his life is now ruined, how he's now going to drink himself to death, and....very likely....at some point....claim that I somehow caused this terminal illness. It would soon be "all about him." I've already told myself, that if I'm ever hospitalized and he becomes a problem, I will have to order that he not be allowed to visit.
So, when a situation "touches" them personally....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
So, when a situation touches the personally, meaning that it interferes with their life someway, they can't look beyond themselves.
When our son had a serious break in his arm (both bones broken, compound fracture, bones poking thru skin), our son was naturally in extreme pain and very upset. I had to remain calm and supportive while getting him to ER, which then resulted in "middle of the night" orthopedic surgery, titanium plates implanted, etc. It was an ordeal, a long surgery, which included the surgeon coming out midway to provide updates.
My H was a total mess...crying the whole time. It was unreal. Our son's life wasn't in danger. Yes, it was a nasty break (happened during a football game), but there was no need for the constant crying on H's part. The funny thing is, I'm the one who will easily cry at a sad movie, or a touching commercial, but I didn't cry at all about this. In my head it was just, "let's take care of business and get our son the medical attention he needs."
In hindsight, I didn't realize how H's reaction was another display of his mental illness and the weakness of his inner core. To this day, H hates the other young person who "caused" the break, even though that young man came to our home, apologized for the injury, and was very helpful to our son. It was an accident during a sporting event. Those things happen.
NGLM....
Submitted by c ur self on
Lowering my expectations is the key here so I don't get disappointed so often...Wise statement! This is the answer for you for me for every spouse who really doesn't like the way their other half lives and acts...
I can't be my wife's conscience; I can't be her Holy Spirit....I can't look for ways to control her with my actions and words because all I will succeed in doing is making her feel unaccepted. That kind of action only tells her she is inferior and how much I don't like her and want to change her....
I've really had to back off and learn to live and let live; deal with my own emotions and let her decide what God wants from her...I know one thing for sure at this point; all God wants from me is to love her! That doesn't mean speeches about the things I abhor about her life, it doesn't mean under handed and sneaky ways to seek to control and send messages to try and correct her behavior....What it does mean; Is to Love her just like I love myself...My wife's add causes lots of chaos rushing around, messiness and you name it and we have it....Her mind consumes her; we have to plan most everything; if I can slow her down enough to make a plan; and if she can remember the plan, sex included..LOL
I have to watch myself everyday and most of us will who deal w/ add or we fall into the trap...Here is what just happened this AM....She was struggling to get up and make it to a doctor's appointment....We also have a hot date tonight (dinner and a Play)...She worked out last night so she also want's to go stay with our daughter across town and keep her new born so our daughter and Son in law can get some sleep after she tucks me in;)...She got home from work at 12 last night, when I woke up to P at 345 she was just getting in the bed...Back up at 815 to start her day....So I see this tired wife on our date, and miserable wife trying to stay awake much of the night to feed and change an infant....So automatically I start making suggestions about what I think she should do;) that's how my mind works; (preventive maintenance)....Mothering right!!! Telling her she should come home after her Dr appointment and get her some more sleep so she can do what she has planned and feel good, etc...So about 30 sec into this monolog of what she needs to do based on my trying to give some sound advice she walks off a little frowny:)...I thought about it a minute found her washing her face in the bathroom and kissed her and said..."I'm sorry I was trying to mother you"....And she loves it when I do that (simple act will change her whole day) one; so she can make sure she lets me know I was doing that exact thing Ha Ha!....So now? Well she may sleep some more, she may not, she may be tired tonight, who knows....But the moral of this story is she don't need me to mother her, she needs me to love and respect her and do all things that make her feel beautiful, desired and accepted....
With add/adhd remember what J said...Much of what we observe in their living of life isn't about us...I know that knowledge is limited to some degree, but, it does help me to remember it when I'm shaking my head...:)
So just try and make your husband feel accepted, it makes all the difference....I'm sure his ego and emotions are a little fragile thinking you could leave him again, he may also be pouting about it...I bet he loves you more than you know....And I bet he is covering it up (withdrawing; his protection) thinking he will never be able to be what you want.....He's in probably hurting and feeling somewhat hopeless....Without patients, forgiveness and a long suffering spirit; not many of our marriages can ever experience the true glory God meant for them to....
C
"Much of what we observe in
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
"Much of what we observe in their living of life isn't about us" and yet, we do so much for them that we feel depleted. Funny how we have sacrificed feeling loved to make broken people feel loved. Rhianna sings a song that says "funny you're the broken one but I'm the one who needs saving." It's a real struggle daily, you are right. I know my husband loves me, I am all he feels he has. Yay me! :)
;)
Submitted by c ur self on
You know; I've thought about this very thing, so many times...But the reality I'm coming to understand is we all have our crosses....And they only make us stronger. I truly hope your day is blessed...
"Live and Let Live"
Submitted by jlhrva on
Hi C...
I always enjoy your posts and responses - I admire how much you seem to have it together with helping and still admiring your wife.I want to find a way to strike a similar balance, but it is HARD sometimes.
My question with relation to this thread - how do we achieve this "live and let live" state when their behaviors directly impact us? When their attitude towards us changes at the drop of a hat due to a normal thing, and we are looked at as though WE are the problem, because we don't see the interaction through their lens?
My ADHD partner has an expectation of morning intimacy, but will seldom wake up in time for this to be practical, despite alarms, etc. When he does finally wake, he will be sweetness and light, cuddly, paying compliments, etc., until he realizes that I am getting out of bed because I either absolutely have to get ready for work, the dogs are fussy, whatever the case may be. Once he realizes that I am getting up without meeting this expectation, his entire demeanor towards me will change to sullen, withdrawn sulkiness, one-word muttered responses, turning his back, etc. But if I question this, or try to explain that it's hurtful to me, makes me feel like I have done something wrong and am being punished, I am simply tld "but I would never do that to you" and "it's just that my feelings changed".
Does he really not have the ability to see that this behavior IS emotional manipulation? That this is not normal emotionality? That the rest of the world would 'respond' with maybe something like a kiss on the cheek and "you're right, no time, maybe later?"...
I want to be able to 'live and let live' and not allow his behaviors to upset me, but the fact of the matter is that they DO. Our lives are intertwined, and his emotional affect does impact me. Especially when it drastically changes like this in direct relation to my 'denying' his expectation. How do I help him to see that his behavior is the root of this, not my 'reaction' or 'interpretation'?
Hi jlhrva
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
I love C's post also. I am looking forward to his input for you. If I may add my feeling, in my case and from what I have learned from this site, trying to get people that are not "normal" and "logical" to understand "normal emotiionality" is difficult. My husband will fight me about it, make me feel like I am illogical but I know different. They are not the rest of the world and that is why I am learning that I am not crazy but it's easier for me to accept that he won't get it than to try to make him try get it. Get it? Still it affects us. Married people are like pretzels, the are connected. Some days I am powerful and strong and other days I pity my situation, but hey we are only humans with an idea of the type of marriage we wanted. A big wrench was thrown in the mix, wasn't it? My best to you, love.
Anyway, C, where are you?
How Do You See What is Invisible?
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi jlhra,
I wanted to try and answer in part, what you and NGLM are wondering about from the ADHD perspective. I can use something that my T has explained to me in order to do this. What you said .."Does he really not have the ability to see that this behavior IS emotional manipulation? I think you are giving him too much credit and working off an assumption/conclusion that he can actually see his behavior AT ALL in the first place. A person would have to SEE their behavior first, before they can even begin to see things like it being controlling or manipulative if you can understand what I am saying?
You feel the "hurt" or "disrespect" as a result of what he does.... and assume that he can actually see what seems so obvious and apparent too you as you witness it and experience it from an observational first person standpoint. Add into this that it becomes very personal to you after too long and now it really hurts and you become defensive and angry because it just keeps happening. That sore spot now is really tender and he keeps poking his finger in it regardless of what you say or do......does this sound about right?
So to answer you initial question about not having the ability to see that his behavior is emotional manipulation....the answer is probably YES....barring something esle going on other than ADHD, he would probably feel exactly the same way under the same thing happening to him under the same set of circumstances. That means he has this ability. What I'm proposing is that he can't see his behavior in the first place in order to be able to see how it might affect him the same way which is all you want initially in the first place. It where all the illogical and irrational responses come from.
Think of it in terms of trying to explain the color red to a blind person and expecting them to be able to relate or respond to a discussion on how color is used in interior design and how hues, saturation and intensities of different color choices will influence the "mood" or "feeling" of the room, and how this will affect you as you an sitting in it? The problem isn't that the blind person is without the ability to do this....the problem is that they can't see in the first place to be able to do it if that were possible if you follow what I am trying to say?
Further....(paraphrasing my T here)...."for example.....if you were dealing with someone who has a bonified anxiety disorder, the root or cause of this at the source is fear. If you think about times when you are afraid of something....you tend to be focused on that uncomfortable "feeling" and wanting it to go away. This happens to everyone at times...but once the threat is gone.....you return to being as you were before without this feeling of fear involved to influence your behavior. For someone who is disordered this way.....it would make a person like this appear self absorbed since they chronically more inwardly focused on themselves and making the fear that is driving their behavior disappear by doing things that will do this for them even if it's only a temporary fix (hence compulsive/obsessive behaviors) in this scenario. Someone like this will tend not to be too focused on you or other people by default because of this and not appear too concerned about how their behavior is affecting anyone else. On the contrary... seeing them from the outside with no apparent "threat" anywhere to be seen (by you)...they appear irrational and illogical by all accounts including your's. Adding on top of that....an apparent self righteous attitude that can go along with this as if you somehow can see and feel this threat the same as with a self justifying attitude that goes along with it. For them ....the fear (and subsequent feelings ) are very real whether the threat itself is "not real" and only perceived.
A second consideration would be a person who is a Narcissist. For someone who is diagnosable in this way.... they simply may not care how their behavior affect you and feel very entitled and automatically justified in everything they do regardless of how irrational they appear. They possibly can see it and yet it doesn't matter....they just don't care if it bothers you or not if it serves them in the moment to be anyway they feel they need regardless of what it is. The ends always justify the means and there is no use in arguing with them on anything of this nature because it's likely to be futile and it will always get thrown right back into your face anytime you try. That's another scenario that is very different than someone with an anxiety disorder but the resulting behavior, what it appears like to you and how you feel afterwards might be exactly the same from your first person perspective.
A third option here would be ADHD. Again....the behavior and the end result of how it makes you feel my look and appear identical in the same scenario as the other two examples yet....the reason or mechanism behind it is still different than the other two and coming from a completely different source.....executive function. As my T mentioned again ..."a hardwiring problem" not "software" one (emotional or character defect like the other two examples). For (us)....that signal sometimes, that most other people might take for granted that they clearly understand or can "see" easily may be delayed or worse.....not arrive at all to make that final connection in the brain. Delayed is difficult at best but at least you can see it later depending on the circumstances and how long it takes to get there.....not arriving at all is exasperating!
So how do you get someone to see what they cannot see? What I have began to do with my wife for example....is to relate something that she CAN see and understand.....and connect it directly to her and how she might feels under the same situation. She may not see her behavior as I do and she cannot comprehend how I could feel because of that....but she certainly knows what it feels like when she encounters something similar under a different sets of circumstances and why it is she feels that way. I can't really relate to her anxiety issues (not disorder as my T emphasized to me:)....and she cannot relate with my executive function problems and probably never will....but I have found that finding an example of something that she can relate with in this way has worked to get her to try and see approximately what it is like from my perspective. I've found once I am able to do this....the light bulb suddenly goes on and she can now see it too (indirectly or in the third person) even if not directly in the first person the same as it is with me.
At this point.....I am aware that I literally cannot see things at times but now....I do not jump to the conclusion, react and assume that these things are directed at me personally as an attack or threat in some way to my person....it tells me that there is something that I am not seeing and have to deal with these initial emotions and move past those to try and get a better understanding of what it is that I am doing to illicit this response or reaction from my wife or other people. This takes a lot of practice and attempts to divert myself from doing what I would normally do (assume and draw incorrect assumptions and conclusions from what I perceive that is happening.....and assume that what is happening is something that is somewhat invisible or I can't see at all but is really there non the less instead.
I think what I just described as the process that I have to go through is the same one for the same reason that would help you get past the things you were searching to find an answer for....hopefully? It's a stab a the very least:)
J
Hi J -
Submitted by jlhrva on
Hi J -
Thanks for taking the time to think about this one; your perspective is always enlightening for me. I'm honestly trying to find creative ways to communicate on the same wavelength as my partner, and I value any input that can help me get to that path.
I think that there are 2 problems I will run into with trying to create an 'analogy scenario' for my partner:
1. No analogy will be acceptable or accurate. They are always picked apart on the basis of my "not doing a good job" of conveying what I'm "trying" to get him to understand (even when he doesn't KNOW what I'm trying to convey!). If I do arrive at a scenario he can't break down, he will just say that he wouldn't feel the way that I do. We'll spend two hours with me trying to come up with an analogy, only to give up and walk away, nothing resolved.
2. Basic denial of the validity of my feelings. Even if I can come up with a way to explain that his immediate switch to sullen, withdrawn behavior makes me FEEL a certain way, he will simply say "well I've explained why you shouldn't feel that way. I don't understand why you insist on telling me I"m doing something I'm not doing". (Because he really thinks that he can behave in this way, but then just say "I'm not doing that" and that's the end of it).
Any thoughts on how to overcome these anticipated obstacles?
This Sounds So Familiar jhrva
Submitted by kellyj on
I think we are on the same page in what I was trying to describe so I'll try and break it down for you based on what you just said. I'll use my wife and I for an example to illustrate what I have done with her at the very least in a similar situation. This just happened the other day so it's fresh in my mind.
So....I'm sitting there reading something on the couch and my wife walks into the room out of the blue and starts talking to me about something that is on her mind. As I see her....she is fretting (or worrying) about something. I know this because when she frets....she focuses on the thing that is causing her to be anxious and wants to talk about it. This is so obvious and apparent to me that it's not even funny. I've seen her do this a thousand times or more and I am very familiar with the entire process she goes through in her head to get through these moments to where she can stop ruminating and fretting about what ever it is and move on from that moment to something else. To me.....this is all painfully obvious. Skipping to the end of this process, ultimately whether she realizes or can see herself in these moments or not (usually not! lol )...she is trying to make her anxiousness about what ever it is go away. That's her goal so to speak.
The two of us are polar opposites when it comes to these moments in how we approach this including what we need from the other person if it were reversed and I was coming to her under the same circumstances. Right off the bat....I know from this experience...not to do what I would do or would want from her in return under the same conditions which is: get to the facts on both side of the issue and lay them out in front of me without emotions or feelings involved, organize them in chronological order, process them by eliminating the chaff and the unneeded information and get right down to the lowest common denominator and find a solution to fix the problem as quickly as possible. If I'm worried about something....having a game plan and a strategy to fix the problem at the very least will stop my worrying even if I haven't done anything yet to actually take care of what ever it is. This is what I want if I were to walk into the room and do the same thing with my wife as she was doing and I asked for her help ie: get information, reduce it to just the facts and chain of events, isolate and identify the problem and find a solution in as short a distance from point A to point B as quickly and as painlessly as possible without a lot of extracurricular emotions and feelings involved to muddy up the water and make things more complicated. Just the facts ma'am. lol If it were me.....this is what would make my worrying go away in the least amount of time possible and anything I want from someone else to help me get there would only relate to the things that I just said. Everything else outside of that would only make things worse and only frustrate me by delaying this process and probably make me even more anxious than less. If all the other person wanted to do was talk about how upsetting something is making them or who did what to whom to make them feel bad or worry or even worse.....worrying about something that hasn't happened yet with the likely hood of that actually happening is slim to none statistically speaking......what's left after that I always figure is up to your ability to deal with the rest in the moment when you actually get and address the problems as they become apparent. If I feel confident in myself to do this....there is no sense in worrying about it ahead of time since I know from experience....I can just deal with it then as needed and it will usually work out more often than not. My head is already filled with too many of these thoughts, I'm trying to make them go away not add more to the list! The last thing I want is to add more worry on top of the worry that's already there including someone else's concerns, fears and emotions on top of that. ei yei yei!!!!
But that all about me and what I want in those moments...what my wife wants is a completely different story. What she wants is the exact opposite of what I want and I know this so....I do what she needs from me....to sit and listen to her talk about how she feels and describe what is worrying her and for me to not to respond to anything but her emotions and feelings first while at the same time....not to try and fix the problem or give advise or offer any solutions that I might come up as I am listening to her.( again, what I would want if it were me). In other words....she needs someone to vent her emotions too and be a vessel or receptacle for them in a way of "sharing them" them or "off loading" them with her. I cannot express enough the effect this process has on me and how exhausting and anxious making this is for me to do with her or anyone else for that matter for more than a very limited and short duration of time!!! lol (just to reiterate:)
In this way....the two of us do not relate well, but as I just described this scenario....I see what she needs and try and do my best to give her what she wants. That's not saying I'm a very good candidate for her in doing this or that I am very good at doing it....this is where the accusations of blame sometimes come into play and that's when I stop her and bring her to this fact each time it happens.
As happened the other day....she was worried about something and had brought it up three or four times within a short period of time. That was my first clue. As I sat and listened to what was troubling her specifically......I specifically responded to what she was expressing and the words that were coming out of her mouth and just tried to listen. Eventually however, she stopped me and said "well you could have just asked me how did this makes me feel and show some concern." buzzzzzzzz!!! Stop right there!!! This assumes a lot on her part. Without getting into the details of this particular case...this is not something that I would worry about in the first place. She's running through all her thoughts and concerns about this with me and I already know what I would do and it wouldn't be a problem for me on almost any level I could think of.....but, I already know better than to offer this to her as I said. For me to do that, it would be like saying......"why are you worrying about this in the first place? Just do this (X) and it would take care of itself no problem. Why are you making a problem where there is no problem? What's your problem? At least, this is what she hears in her head as she filters me trying to give her solutions and fix the problem. It's because I am dismissing her feelings and not addressing how she feels and by passing that to get to an answer and a solution which will ultimately resolve the issue and make it go away (in my mine again). This is clearly not what she wants and now she's accusing me of not relating with her feelings about this the same as she would do (as she sees it and relates it to herself).
The problem here is that I was sitting in the room one minute without a worry or care in the world in that moment reading a magazine, and now my wife walks in and introduces something to worry about that I simply have very little input or thought about or would give it a second thought. I can't relate with her feelings in this case because I don't have any of the same ones to relate to her about ( the worrying) I don't share her's in this moment the same as she does and I just went from 0 to 60 mph in a heart beat and suddenly am supposed to get right on board with her and her feelings about something that I had none to begin with and still have very little feelings about one way or the other and am just trying to be a good listener and respond to what she is saying and be supportive. It is not registering in the same way with me but there is an assumption and expectation on her part that somehow.....I feel the same as she does and now the next obvious step in her own process would be to inquire about how she would feel and show concern about her feelings.....as she would do under the same circumstances.
And as I just ran through this with you.....I did the same thing with her in that moment when I stopped her to do this...in fact, I started out by saying to her " let's back up here for a minute"...and proceeded to do approximately the same thing with her and brought her right up to that point where I stopped her after I was accused of not doing what she perceived I should have in that moment (to somehow instantly relate, know exactly how she felt and then show concern for her feelings) despite doing my best to be supportive and just listen and not do what I would want from her as I said.
And as I did this....her response to me was "oh....I guess that would have been kind of a jump from the things I was saying ( a specific problem she was having ) too....how am I feeling about this and showing concern for my feelings." EXACTLY!!! I told her that I already could see she was worried about this from the several times she already brought it up earlier....and I knew she was worried and was doing my best to just listen and not offer advise or fix the problem by offering solutions. Without saying this too her directly.....what she was calling me out on was not being very good at relating to her and not having the same feelings she had about the subject as she saw it. She was trying to make me responsible for not being able to remove her anxiety by doing this in the way that she needed in order for this to happen.....that was the bottom line.
What's missing in my wife's ability to see both sides of this interaction on her end is that it does not occur to her that this "off loading" or "sharing" her feelings in this way has the opposite effect on me as it does with her. I'm not very good at doing it naturally because the effect it has on me which only increases my anxiety level and gives me more not less to worry about It only makes me anxious where I was not before and by nature.....it exactly what I don't do and don't want to do with others in the same situation and would do what actually makes me less anxious instead of more which is find an answer and resolution as quickly as possible to avoid the feelings that result in not knowing what to do or not having a path in front of me so I can do something about it not just talk about instead.
The big difference here with my wife and I comes from me being on the high end (probably) of being self reliant by nature. Doing things for myself by myself and not asking or expecting help from anyone else. By default....this is me. My wife is on the opposite end of this spectrum and is more dependent and wants and needs a lot of help and support along the way and wants other people to be involved in the whole process. She wants someone like herself at times with me and what she gets is a person who is just not very good or practiced at being this way. Not just for her....but for anyone.
From my pejorative way of seeing things in my own perspective.....I see non-self reliance as weak, incompetent, needy, burdensome and in need of a lot of "hand holding" as I have referred to it. This is the kind of thinking that I need to eliminate from my own thought process. For someone like myself.....they would probably relate too and feel the same way about things but this only reinforces this kind of thinking in those terms. It's only correct for those who think and feel the same as I do.....it does not account for everyone else at the other end of the spectrum who see things almost 180 degrees differently coming from seeing things looking at it from the dark side of the moon. Sorry....I just had to throw that in! lol
That was the "jump" that my wife was able to connect with in the moment when I brought her back to that place for her to see what she was missing (what she could not see).
It's being able to see that the other person "does not" feel and think the same as you do and relate to them that way not the other way around. You miss a lot if you only see these differences negatively instead of seeing the differences and embracing them instead:)
J
Hi jhrva, thanks for your kind words...
Submitted by c ur self on
I suggest you refrain from letting his actions created to much emotion in you...It is an attempt at manipulation and maybe out of immaturity or just self absorption to some degree...Men can do that about sex, our favorite thing:)...Lets face it we all can want our own way...So just let him own it...Knowing you love him and if his unsuccessful attempt to control you has failed well your still at peace and he will have to manage his own emotions...The less you say or show emotion in this kind of instance the more he will grow an learn it ain't getting him no where...:)
Have a happy day!
C
Lowering my expectations is the key here so I don't get disappoi
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< Lowering my expectations is the key here so I don't get disappointed so often.>>>
When I was getting married, I didnt know my future in-laws very well. They lived far away and I only met them briefly for a Christmas Dinner...so I was completely unaware how ADHD and mentally unhealthy they all were.
Anyway.....the night of our Rehearsal Dinner, I politely expressed to H's brother how disappointed I was that their parents had missed the Rehearsal Dinner. Instead of flying out a bit earlier, their plane was scheduled to arrive during the end of the Dinner.
I will never forget H's brother's words. He said, 'if you don't expect anything, you won't be disappointed." Little did I know that likely those were words that he learned to cope while growing up.....because he (and his siblings) had parents who couldn't really be counted on for anything....disorganized, unhelpful, self-centered, etc.
In hindsight, I understand his words. H's brother had learned to never expect much from his parents. So, he had embraced the "don't expect anything" philosophy to avoid being hurt.
However, at the time, I was shocked by his words. I though he was being dismissive. I thought he was telling me that I was expecting "too much."
I had come from a family that had its act together. My parents were always there for everything, always willing to "pitch in" and help with any situation. Even with the Rehearsal Dinner, which is traditionally the Groom's Family's responsibility, my parents picked up the tab when H's family flaked (and my parents did NOT have a higher income than H's parents). And, of course, my parents paid for our lovely wedding as well.
"Don't expect anything" to Avoid Being Hurt
Submitted by kellyj on
Your story is a perfect analogy of what happens when two people have different 'tolerance levels" to things like you are talking about. I didn't have the chaotic household it sounds like your H had, but the message and the overall content of what our whole family was taught (or handed down from above ie: the lord and ruler) "you're on your own and it's every man/woman for yourself as long as it doesn't affect me." This is a rather convenient strategy if you are on the stingy and selfish side of doing things for others if you think about it. In the case of our family....it worked for the one making the rules and that was about it. Coming from this kind of environment....not expecting things to avoid being hurt is not only necessary....it's mandatory!
Going along with what you were saying about feeling dismissed initially when your brother in law made that comment....in reality, he was actually trying to do you a favor and give you some good advise based on his first hand experience on how to survive in his family situation and was actually considering your feelings not dismissing them.
What brought this to mind was something that my T just told me in my last visit to see him when he mentioned "tolerance levels." As he was directing this specifically at me in the moment.....he basically said that my tolerance to certain things like this is going to be a lot higher than someone else for this very reason. It's also the reason why I became so self reliant early on. If no one is going to pitch in and help you do things....either you have to do them or they won't get done at all..and if don't know how.....you better find out in a hurry if it's something that is really important or you need right away.
Without giving this a second thought in my past.....this is something that you get use too. Throw ADHD into this and how people treat you or react to you and start to get use to that too even if it hurts (without understanding why?). The bar gets set pretty low in your expectations of others and so when someone disrespects you or does not show concern for you and your feelings....after too much time passes, it's something you come to expect which is on the other side of 0 on the balance sheet.
Coming from this far on the other side of what you are describing.....if you are not aware of this or cannot see how your perception is going to be somewhat distorted in this area of thinking......you get blind sided when someone appears to be making a big deal about seemingly nothing.... that is.....nothing compared to what you are use too because they have not built up this kind of tolerance or immunity from it since it happens consistently all of the time.
Interesting to note here as I see this....it is exactly the same thing that most of you spouses who are married to us describe in your own experience with us. In my thinking here (not my T or what I have read somewhere) it seems to me that what is actually happening to you is what happened to us (or has happened in our lifetime of experience) and without seeing this or realizing it on either side without intention.....your tolerance levels are having to shift way up our way instead of us becoming more sensitive and vulnerable instead.
From where I sit at this point....this is what it looks like at the very least. Just some food for thought....I don't have an exact answer to give on how to deal with this inequity outside of the things that have already been said:)
One more thing to add here. I think this can also go in the extreme other direction.....becoming hyper-sensitive and easily hurt or offended at the slightest inference of wrong doing or perceived disrespect from others ( or a very low tolerance to these things). In reality....I think it's a combination of a little of both.
J
<<<
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
I didn't have the chaotic household it sounds like your H had, but the message and the overall content of what our whole family was taught (or handed down from above ie: the lord and ruler) "you're on your own and it's every man/woman for yourself as long as it doesn't affect me." This is a rather convenient strategy if you are on the stingy and selfish side of doing things for others if you think about it. In the case of our family....it worked for the one making the rules and that was about it. Coming from this kind of environment....not expecting things to avoid being hurt is not only necessary....it's mandatory!
Going along with what you were saying about feeling dismissed initially when your brother in law made that comment....in reality, he was actually trying to do you a favor and give you some good advise based on his first hand experience on how to survive in his family situation and was actually considering your feelings not dismissing them.
y.>>>
You are exactly right. And, yes, in hindsight, H's brother was giving me insight. H's brother, we believe, has Asperger's, so his delivery wasn't empathetic, but simply an explanation or solution to my "issue" of being disappointed. I had expected him to say something like, "Yes, it's sad that my parents weren't here for the Rehearsal Dinner. They should have been here."
And, as you've described, H's brother is very self-reliant, likely the result of never having parents help out with anything.
A final thought
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
Well since I started this thread, let me tell you how it ended. First my final thought: I get hurt more than he does and I overthink how he must be feeling and he just plows through. Why do I say this? This all started Tuesday. I spoke to him Tuesday night. He still hasn't text my sister to console her. He was sick Wed and I took care of him. Thursday came and I decided to not come home for dinner but get a pedicure and go to Sephora for makeup to treat myself. Right away, I start feeling guilty because he is not feeling well, he is home alone, he may feel unloved and I can't stand for people to feel unloved (one reason why I didn't break up with him when I was dating him) so I start overthinking. Turns out, he went to the mall to meet a client and met me after the meeting to buy me an ice cream. When he saw me, he was so happy and like nothing happened. I am sure he remembers it all since I was pretty upset Tuesday but he said that he loved me so much. I was happy that he was not depressed (visibly anyway) and that we could have a nice night. We played a board game before bed. So did I get my wish of him showing concern for my sister? No, not yet and maybe not for a while. He does love her, I know that. I am also glad that I am learning to be vocal about my concerns and when he acts out in a way that is not good. What he does with the info is on him. I hope he will build on what I said but at least I know I didn't sleep on my anger or concerns. He is a handful this is for sure but today we are smiling and the cycle will continue. I want to learn to NOT feel so guilty and not paint this picture in my head that he is in a corner despondent and contemplating hurting himself. Most of the time he is thinking of mundane things like tv, or video games when I am feeling horrible for us. I know he holds a lot of disappointment in himself inside because he always recalls almost verbatim the things I tell him that hurt me. In the end, I always end up feeling love for him, compassion until he pisses me off again and says, "I don't get why that was a bad thing to do" haha! Anyway, here is a snippet from an article that I hope can help someone. i know I want to apply this more. Til the next time my friends!
Using This One Word Will Make Men Respond Better To You
James Michael Sama
I admit that when I talk about dating, relationships, and ‘courtship’ in the modern day sense, my articles are a little biased. Meaning, since I write from my own perspective, I often don’t take into consideration the fact that each of us grows up differently in unique environments and is exposed to different types of normalcy.
Many times, women respond to my articles and tell me that they feel as though men were simply not raised or taught to act in the ways that I think they ‘should’ act. This raises the problem of ‘you don’t know what you don’t know,’ and is essentially the same as asking someone to do something that they’ve never been shown how to do.
This, among countless other reasons, is why communication is so important in relationships. It’s important because we all have different expectations, outlooks, and languages that we speak. It is often said that women are more emotional and men are more logical in how they communicate, which can definitely be true – but it is also true that men instinctively want to make the woman in their life happy, and will do whatever it takes to accomplish that task.
We can begin to see a pattern that often times, while the willingness is there, the know-how simply is not. This goes for most men, particularly because every relationship will be different and he may need some help finding his druthers in the beginning.
Women may become frustrated or increasingly jaded as they meet men who are seemingly clueless, but the cycle created by this is as follows:
Man doesn’t know how to make woman happy but doesn’t communicate it.
Woman is tired of men never putting in effort, not realizing they simply don’t know how.
Man feels hopeless and begins to recoil from the relationship because he feels he can’t do anything right.
Woman or man gives up and moves on because it’s just not going to work.
And the cycle continues…nobody is at fault except for inefficient communication. So, how do we break this pattern?
Men respond differently to how they are approached. If you say, for example:
“I think you’re ignoring me.”
“Why didn’t you call me when you said you would?”
“You should have let me know you were going to be late.”
You may not realize it, but putting the focus on what he’s done wrong completely deflates him and he will more than likely feel discouraged and respond in his own personal way. Some men get quiet, some men get hostile, but regardless of how they respond to you (right or wrong) the message they hear is the same: You telling him he is inadequate for what he did or how he thinks.
Instead, consider these alternatives:
“When you don’t respond to me, it makes me feel ignored.”
“When you didn’t call, it made me feel like I wasn’t important.”
“When you don’t tell me you’re going to be late it makes me feel like you don’t value my time.”
I guarantee you will get a different response from him.
The magic word…feel. When communicating with a man you’re involved with, watch how his responses to you change when you start telling him how his actions make you feel. Since, as we discussed earlier, he wants to make you happy – knowing he is making you feel a different way will wake him up and understand the situation better. It will sound more collaborative rather than combative. It will give him direction rather than cut him off at the knees. It will make him feel like you are communicating with him, rather than pointing out his flaws.
This may sound basic, simple, or even a little bit ridiculous – but it is accurate. When men say we are simple creatures, we really do mean it. We want to make you happy, but sometimes we need a little help and patience in figuring out how to do it.
So, next time you have a disagreement or a ‘talk’ that needs to be had with the man in your life, if you typically find he is closed off to hearing your point of view when you are trying to get him to change or improve the way he does something, take the focus off of what he is (or isn’t) doing, and start putting the focus on how his actions make you feel.
See how the conversation goes, then.
Exllant Post NGLM
Submitted by kellyj on
I think, even if you do not understand this article and what it is saying.....I agree with it and think this is really good advise. In it's very essence....I'm trying to do the reverse version with my wife in a sense...getting her to see how I feel instead of trying to get her to see the facts and logistics of any given situation. If you can imagine coming from a female point of view.....this has worked pretty well indeed.
If you can't beat'em....join'em. ha!
J
I know for my husband, if I
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
I know for my husband, if I start anything "why didn't you" or "why don't you" I get a huge sigh and a look of "what now?" So by saying "when you did ____ I felt ___" you are eliminating them having to explain why they did or didn't do something right. Most times they are not even aware they did something to hurt you or socially unacceptable.
I know for my husband, if I start anything "why didn't you...
Submitted by kellyj on
It would be easy if it were the flu....that's something you don't need to explain to someone but everyone understand when you are sick like this, you are far from your best and will likely behave in ways that you would not normally be like. "Under the weather" or any other phrase you can think will do the same thing and everyone will almost instantly understand. If you said..."oh, I have ADHD...that's why I do these things." You already know how far that goes to getting you to change how you see the same behavior. That's where the "what now?" comes from. What can you say?
And you are absolutely right...many times, I have no idea what I did to make my wife angry but she acts or reacts as if it was something that I know full well and am doing it with this knowledge behind me. Nope....sometimes....I don't have a clue. I need her to explain it to me since these are the moments that I can't always see myself as other people can see me.
Take this one step further....the person who is unaware that they did anything and have no idea there is a problem or they did anything wrong is now confronted by someone who appears to be over reacting to something and they aren't coming forth and even saying what it is they are angry at in the first place? Think of yourself in this position and what this would appear like to you? Like....what the hell is up with this person? I don't get it! lol You would tend to discount the incident and right it off to hormones or a bad day on the other persons part. lol
Not so much but then again....I do get it and can see the dilemma in what you are saying. I think you need to be self aware enough to be able to begin to understand what it is you are seeing. I think this is true coming from both sides of the fence.
Think about this scenario with yourself again, and the first thing you would be asking is...what just happened? What did I do wrong? And without an answer...you'd start searching or trying to discover what the answer is to this. This would probably be the first thing that crossed your mind. Once you discovered what it was that you did....it might take a moment before you would connect what you did with how the other person might feel.
By doing what the article said....you're skipping right to what is most important to you....not the action or behavior that caused you to feel this way. If you keep doing this consistently enough times....that starts to become he first thing you think of not focusing on figuring out or trying to see where you went wrong. I think it's an easier and faster way to get the results you are looking for. Coming from our end of things...the other way is a lot more mysterious and convoluted and wrought with pitfalls and assumptions if you can't even see what it is you did in the first place.
It also leaves very little room for argument. Trying to argue about someone's feelings is fool hardy to say the least. You still may not like the outcome but what are you going to say to someone who says "you just hurt me." "No I didn't". Right. lol
J
You guys are lucky...
Submitted by jlhrva on
You guys are lucky. The "when you do___, it makes me feel ____" thing doesn't work for me AT ALL.
Rebuttal 1 is "but I'm not doing that". Rebuttal 2 is "but you shouldn't feel that way".
I have to argue the existence of the thing that occurred (which i usually can't get past!), followed by meeting the reasonability standard for whether my feelings are valid and thus deserving of discussion. I have yet to meet both qualifications in any discussion. Every single discussion ends with my agreeing that I must be bringing old baggage to the table, or being too sensitive, or some combination of the two. It has never ONCE been considered that his tone/action/etc is actually responsible for the issue. My "reactivity" and "anxiety issues" are responsible for EVERY issue that arises..
That Sounds A Lot Like...
Submitted by kellyj on
"No I didn't". Isn't that called denial? I think it is? It's bad enough that we miss things like this at times....what's worse is only seeing your half of the equation. Cause and effect my dear. I'm sorry to hear that you are in this position....how completely frustrating and exhausting!
J
Yep.
Submitted by jlhrva on
Yep. "Denial" would be the right word.
It's not as bad as it could be, because I know he really believes it. He truly thinks that it's just that I am so "sensitive" and so "reactive", and had a crappy ex-husband, that I hear and perceive things that he is not really doing. The most frustrating part is that he can't admit to ANY portion of the responsibility for things, even to say "hey, maybe she IS really sensitive, so I should take extra care with my tone". Nope. He doesn't need to change a thing. Ever. He just needs to exercise more forbearance in the wake of my "brokenness". It's like it's critically important to him not to have to carry any portion of responsibility for anything that arises, ever.
The Reality of The Situation Jhrva
Submitted by kellyj on
Yesterday....I went to see my T without my wife and I had a chance to vent a little and talk to him about some things that I have been struggling with. Once again, he brought me to a familiar place in our sessions which only confirmed the same message he has been giving me for years....as usual! lol The message is simple: you can only control your own emotions and actions and are responsible for them 100%. That's simple enough to understand? He also reminded me that to a point....everyone does the same thing whether you see it or realize it or not so it good to remind yourself not to throw rocks at glass houses or any other phrase or quote you like to think of that is saying the same thing..."he who is without sins...." right? In fact....two minutes into my "story" or what happened recently when my wife and I got into a fight over something he stopped me in my tracks and brought me right back to where he always does.....ME. He said " I've heard this story a thousand times or more.....the detail to your story may be slightly different than all the others I heard but it's still the same exact story I already heard before so I don't even need to hear any more of the details to know what you are going to say." I love this about my T...he wastes no time. This might sound rude or inconsiderate or even insensitive of him to interrupt me like this and not even show a little interest in what I had to say or to let me vent a little and get things off my chest. The point here is that I know him and what he does and this is part of how he brings you to see how meaningless and futile it is to hold onto a somewhat self righteous position feeling you are somehow unique and your story is somehow different than everyone else. The baggage or the "shit" you bring along into any relationship you have may be personal or somewhat individual ( the mix of shit may be slightly different or a different combination) but....what people do with it and how they react or behave from it together is identical in almost any case you could possibly hear from anyone else. My T doesn't have a crystal ball or any special talent in his ability to predict what people will do or say.....he has just sat and listened to these stories for over 30 years and he knows them all ( ad nauseam)..... and they all smell like the shit they come from. Sorry for being crude but it's a pretty good olfactory metaphor? (mine not my T's) lol
In light of what you were just saying about "sensitivities" or you being overly sensitive. Maybe you are a little sensitive compared to him or how he see's things and maybe you are not overly sensitive at all and it's him who is being insensitive and is in denial of his part of the effect he has on you which brings this out in you more than you would normally be....or maybe no one is being sensitive or insensitive and you just don't agree in these areas of conflict?
What is relevant to what my T was saying I summed up in one of my analogies ( yet another one lol.....word pictures, it is the only way I can see things sometimes! lol ) with my T yesterday that seemed to hit the mark which he confirmed my own understanding of what I was seeing and the message he was trying to convey. I also said this same one with my wife which was why I brought it up with him too......
Picture yourself in a class room of students ( 30 or so ) in a typical classroom setting with desks arranged in rows. Out of all the students in the class room...one has a broken arm in a cast and their arm is stuck up and out away from their body and sticking out into the aisle and every time you walk up that aisle you keep bumping up against this persons arm and they yell out in protest each time you do because it's tender and it hurts.
What are you going to do here? Do you yell back at them for yelling at you and embarrassing you in front of the classroom? Do you get mad at them because their arm is in your way and you keep hitting into it? Do you get angry at them just because they got angry at you in return? Do you argue the fact that they are the only one in the classroom that you have to make a special considerations for and change how you walk up the aisle just for them and this is really annoying and inconvenient for you? Do you tell them to just get over it and quit being such a baby?
or.......
Do you predict that since....every time you walk up the aisle you keep bumping up against them (and their broken arm) regardless of how careful you are trying to be....you end up in the same place each time and ultimately keep running into this persons arm no matter what you do? Who is at fault here...you or the person's broken arm that you keep running into? Maybe all that is needed is for you is not to walk up that same aisle anymore and simply walk up the next one over and use that one instead from now on and just call it good from there? Problem solved..... and the person with the broken arm is not going to do what they did and yell at you each time you bump into them anymore.
It's really easy to get self righteous and start focusing how other people are somehow causing you to have to change or do something different for them. Why? Because it requires some effort and it's an inconvenience at times to have to do this. "But I don't want to change or put out the effort?" Tough....get over it. Everyone has to do this no matter who you are....you are not alone in this one for sure!! The is really where most of the problems you run into originate from...being inherently lazy.....my self included! lol
In my case as my T so lovingly reminded me yesterday (ah hem:)...as he said this to me " I know you very well.....I've been seeing you for years and I know what you are likely to do based on your past. You're stubborn..... and that is what get's in your way more often than not....it's your THANG (or shit I bring with me, in part) so to speak, not anyone else challenge. They have their own shit but it might take a different form than being stubborn....any number of other versions that are different but yet still the same....it's all shit and it all stinks and every ones got theirs. This is where you need to be focusing on and paying attention to if you go back to the original premise that you are 100% responsible for your own actions and behavior despite what anyone else does. These are the reminders that I need to hear from him. I know I'm stubborn but I don't always see exactly where this is creating a problem for me. This is not news or hurts my feelings in any way when he says this....I have been aware of this most of my life.....I just haven't always been able to see where and how this creates these problems for me in my relationships and my life. It's a double edged sword and there are positive sides to being stubborn as well....but , I don't go see my T for him to tell me the positive sides of being stubborn! lol This is what I pay my T to do....to show me where I'm going wrong and he just pointed this out to me........ AGAIN.
He used the metaphor or analogy of trying to unscrew a Phillips head screw with a flathead screwdriver. What you should do is get up and walk into the next room or garage and get a Phillips head screw driver and then come back and do this correctly and easily instead of struggling and slipping and boogering up the screw head which takes three time longer to do...and why? How ridiculous and obvious this seems since there is little to argument in favor of doing this any other way. Yet...we still do anyway even when we know the answer.
The real problem and the reality of the situation is that we are all just being inherently lazy and being stubborn in moments like this and we don't want to change or do something different........or not wanting to make the effort to go get the right screw driver because it's less convenient than spending twice the time with horrible results instead. How ridiculous is that?...... but we all do this kind of thing on varying levels or degrees all the time. No one is immune to this kind of irrational and ridiculous behavior and arguing severity is just another form of denial...it's that simple.
And as little sense as this seems to make in the moment when someone is yelling at you and you are yelling back at them for yelling at you and no one is hearing anything the other person is having to say ...it's the bottom line here in the message that my T was reiterating with me....once again! lol
The purpose for my T doing this with me and skipping all the details and getting right to the heart of the matter is for me to use this information to remind myself in those moments of exactly this........ so that I don't yell, lose my temper or get angry at anyone even IF they are doing the same thing with me and were the one who initiated the confrontation in the first place.
It's quite possible.....that I keep bumping into their injured arm and don't even realize it? It's also to remind myself that this is what everyone does but it's the opposite of what you should do instead. This is how to stop being self righteous and thinking that your problems and issues are somehow unique.....different version, different day...that's all:)
J
This Quote Just Popped into My Head
Submitted by kellyj on
"you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts." Patrick Monohan Like him and his politics or not...this is a universal truth that is hard to argue with:)
J
Down the rabbit hole...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Lol - before I understood that I was arguing with a wall, we could spend ALL day and night "going down the rabbit hole" - debating what was a "fact" vs. what was an "opinion", and the "evidence" supporting each claim. I used to really wonder if I was in some sort of alternate reality, or even was possibly losing my mind. My favorite sentence from that period was "you can't expect me to allow you to continue telling me you feel this way, when I can PROVE that it doesn't make sense"....
LOL
Submitted by kellyj on
Is it further to New York....or by plane? ha!
J