Hi Friends,
It's been a while since my last post. I have been around, but had no opportunity to post due to lots of things that have been going on recently in my life. First of all, I want to thank, again, all of you who have read and responded, you've been a great support and please know you've helped me through a very difficult period in my life. Which, unfortunately, is still going on. (would put a smiley face here, but I'm not really sure it's appropriate, and yet somehow the sad face seems inadequate too)
The coaching I've been getting seems to be working wonders when it comes to achieving my goals. I know how to motivate, how to make my ADHD partner feel things are important to me are also important to her. I've been able to limit the daily struggles with tasks to what seems like a comfortable minimum. However, there still remains one unsolved issue: communication. I've been looking at it very closely recently and realized that while most of our everyday struggle seems ADHD-related, when it comes to mutual understanding, it's extremely aspie. It made me question the direction we had taken so far, as, although deceptively similar in some symptoms, it seems to be an entirely different beast.
I've been reading around about it and particularly one point seems very clear to me: there is no effective couples therapy for us. Even with a counselor who truly understands the problem, it only exacerbates things. There seems to be a lot of understanding during the session. But then, a couple of hours later, the defensive mechanisms start rolling, and once they kick in, it ends up in an excruciatingly long conversation when basically everything that had been said by the therapist or by me gets questioned, twisted, perverted and used against... well, I would say against me, but I also feel like it's against the relationship itself. Like it's depriving us of whatever common ground we may be sharing. It turns out my observations are invalid; it turns out they are valid, but only since I've programmed myself to see her in certain light; it turns out they are 100% valid, but these are all unimportant things, that, if anything, prove my obsessive nature and unbearable perfectionism. God forbid the therapist uses a sentence like "our minds have a way of playing tricks on us"; that gets immediately interpreted as "they say I'm sane and you're remembering things incorrectly". The effect? I don't feel safe to say what all the important things that I need to share with her and the therapist. If I do, I know I'll suffer 10-fold later.
I've read a few online articles regarding Asperger's and in this context, pt. 6 of the following article seems particularly true:
http://www.aspergerpartner.com/15-tips-for-nt-spouses.html
I found out it's much more helpful for me to read about case studies, situations and real-life examples than studying dry lists of clinical symptoms. Even though I've already read a bit of "serious" literature on it, I admit this particular article has been an eye-opener for me: https://goo.gl/PHKrJX
I've been thinking about how much of that relates 1:1 to what we've all shared here. I could go on and on about how well it describes my whole relationship, but there's just too much. I admit I feel overwhelmed and I feel like, instead of closing one chapter, I'm actually opening a new one, maybe even more terrifying. I'm really determined to go on, but I'm also really exhausted, and to find all common therapy seems to be actually hurting us - that's a blow that I wasn't prepared for.
But it has also made me realize how easy it was to confuse the two. There's a lot of banging on and on about comorbidity, but the distinctions are so elusive... Not sure if it's helpful in any way, but I thought I'd share it with you, even though it's been covered by other's posts so many times. I'm also eager to read your comments on that kind of communication issues.
Regardless of the glimpses of hope every now and then, it's been a true rollercoaster for me recently. And, looking backwards, a way downhill rather than up. I'm very frustrated, very tired, exhausted by both whatever-the-hell-this-is and exhausted by the ongoing attempts at struggle - therapy, talks, diagnoses, tests, forms, definitions and all of that stuff. I realize I might be on the verge of losing my mind, although I don't trust myself enough at this point to be able to tell. But I'm pretty sure I am. I can feel depression creeping in slowly but steadily, and I'm noticing some really unhealthy patterns in my own behavior. So... I'm trying to defend the only way I know how that's proven truly effective so far: by sharing with you guys.
Thanks a lot in advance for all your support.
Big Surprise
Submitted by kellyj on
I have often wondered if I was not a little "apsie" if there is such a thing? Mild or like you say....Co-morbid with ADHD as a possibility. And that is really difficult to asses yourself....or to see yourself as others see you? To know if they expereince these things as these articles suggest. I think the probelm with trying to differentiate one thing from another is that sometimes it's true.....sometimes there IS.....two or more other things going on.....( with over lapping syptoms but the symptoms themselves are isolated and not tied to the "other things" necessary to call it "that". What ever "that" is? The first person I thought of when I read through these articles was "Sheldon" on the "Big Bang Theory" as far as an "Aspie" guy. I don't know that for sure.....I'm just saying the description "fits him"....kind of........it's a TV show and the charactor is not an "Aspie" in realy life.....he's just mimicking someone like this for show and for the role or part he's playing.
I do have charactoristics and even some of he speech patterns or "tendencies" to do these things......but not chronic, and not in the way it described it.....plus, my verbal and emotional understanding or "words" and "literature" and even when someone is speaking to me does not fit this description at all? I shouldn't say "at all" but I don't struggle too much with it even in the moment. Most of the time? It could be there are "two things" going on with me and that may be true...but no one has really commented on it specifically to have nor have I had trouble with "language" but......"circumstantial speech" and or "pressured speech".....I'm thinking more "impulse control or trying to "pull back" my urges or "need to speak before I forget my thought" can do that to you too. Having to "reign in" and "wait" sometimes.....can make you feel like you don't have enough time to say what you need to......since being "succinct" is such a problem for me?
Being "succinct"....."blunt"......"and "to the point"....sometimes is difficult for me to do and keep moving forward fast enough to keep the conversation going.....but I am aware of the "flow of the conversation" so I can adust, pull back. omit and edit on the spot....or simply choose not to finish if someone changes topic or goes off course from where I'm going? I can go with them and let my course "change" and just "drop" what I was going to say....in order to stay with the person I'm with...and not get
hung up on it? And verbosity too. But I can control it and I am aware of it. It is a tendency......it is not a "requirement" which is part of what I'm thinking about here.
In marked contrast.......D, fits this description of a HFA to a T in every way. http://www.aspergerpartner.com/the-impossoble-conversation-with-an-adult... My experience....whether or what ever I have as the listener to this from the other side......is exactly this. Not kind of but exactly.....which I have not found to be the case with me so much......but so much compared to everyone else is not saying anything. What I experience from the receiving end is the same........what others experience from me....is difficult to tell unless I were to witness it in real time and see for myself and feel it......hot just see it. You have to "experience it"....words do not do it justice or really tell you exactly what "this experience is like?" But the simple fact that I can tell the difference, that I aware of these things and can change or midify them as needed or even "correct it" if necessary......might suggest that I'm "NOT ASPIE" and these things can be explained in other ways for other reasons other than "HFA" which if I am .....I'd at least in that category I think? "High Functioning" which would make sense? I don't know for sure, my T has never mentioned it....and I don't see myself in "this picture" very well? It doesn't really "fit"..even though some isolated features or symptoms are there for sure. At times...and then not.....but appears all to be changeable and within my means to control it.....more importantly. On my own, without anyone else there having to make me but....that's just my unprofessional take on the subject.......this is now getting into uncharted territory and I have little knowledge or experience with knowing much more than my own observation. And the humor thing doesn't fit at all......that's where it really does not fit at all since I can get subtle and not subtle humor and have no problem with "abstract ideas" and "abstract thinking".....but I still have some of the speech patterns though which makes it all that more confusing or with me unable to give you any more than that?
The thing that really resonated all of a sudden....was the fact....that one of D's favorite TV shows.....is the "Big Bang Theroy"? But the ironic thing here and what doesn't make sense is.....she works directly with "Aspie / Autistic " people in the work she does as a social worker. These are her "clients" so you'd think she would be aware enough........or even the people she works with ( co-workers ) in the field...would "spot" that in her and would have said something? I mean, I'm absolutely not qualitfied at all to see or spot these things in other people.....but she is or suppose to be ( not diagnose but to know "what it is" ) and so do the people who work with her...and no one has said anything to her?
After reading this.......I'd have to say that I am "not the best judge here"...for myself.......but just from this description, and nothing more......I'd be "checking the box".....HFA........for D...without question? Just from my experience and reading through the description and nothing else? Specifically this "impossible conversation" as it's called. I know this one like no one else....having lived and gone to battle with "THIS" for the last 3 years...and it happened imidiately...from the first moment she walked inside the door. As soon as she "moved in"........it happened. Just like that. To the "letter"......."i's" aand "t"'s crossed and dotted....without a doubt.
J
Equal measure means both parties must face it
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Hi J,
As usual, thank you for your input, that's always priceless. :)
As you said, the difficulty is those things overlap and co-exist, so the diagnosis is always fuzzy. Learning that the hard way.
By the way, I've noticed http://heartlessaspergers.com/ has been getting a lot of criticism over the web, and I've been wondering why that was. I mean, sure, the very name of the page is pretty suggestive and could imply the author is herself a very heartless person. True, some statements are occasionally very blunt indeed. But there's a huge difference between aimless, cruel dissing and simply stating the facts. I think what it does is what many therapists should do in the first place: acknowledge the problem. And by "problem" I mean all the implications it has for both spouses. I'm under the impression there seems to be a taboo surrounding the partner. If you say the NT partner struggles, it's perceived as an attack for the Asperger partner. How sick is that? I mean, the Aspie partner has usually no trouble defending themselves without the therapist's help, right? But question is, does it truly help ANY partner. The ADHD/Asperger in denial may be quite happy when left alone, but they sure suffer as hell in a relationship, and I can totally see it's as hard for my partner as it is for me. I'm sure sometimes they suffer less, especially if they are totally oblivious - ignorance is bliss, after all. I'm also sure some suffer more than the NT partner. It all depends on the personal mindset and mental pain thresholds and tolerance and patience and hundreds of factors that have nothing to do with syndromes - it's just being human. I think those feelings are familiar to all of us, whether AS, ADHD or NTs, in any combination of a 'mixed' relationship.
Both sides are merely defending. Both are in pain. Both don't get the other's way of thinking. Both are victims of the "third entity", which is The Syndrome.
But to deny the NT partner suffers (I think this may be done in the name of some misguided political correctness or just social decorum - don't speak "bad" of the "ill", it's not their fault), is to actually deprive BOTH partners of a fighting chance for a happy solution. I think in a personal relationship, the ADHD/Asperger partner suffers a great deal more than in his alone life, because they have this "nagger/controller/judge" in their life, and it creates a kind of a feedback loop: they feel attacked - they defend - that creates more anger in the NT spouse - they defend more, etc. The NT partner's rage hurts them a lot, as it would any other person. It's aimed directly at them. They don't get the cause. They feel misjudged. Their "sanity" is questioned. So, in return, they do the same. But the point of the blame game is that the harder you hit, the harder you get hit. So the harder they defend, the more abuse they suffer from the NT spouse, who also perceives their behavior as abuse. When they break the cycle of hostility, they actually relieve the stress that permeates the whole relationship and allow the NT partner to be more gentle. That's why supporting denial seems so unhealthy to me. And by "supporting denial" I also mean telling them "you have ADHD/AS, and that's only your problem, and don't let anyone tell you it's hurting your partner; that will only cause guilt and that is bad for you, and suggesting you're hurting anyone is cruel. Obviously you're the victim". What's the point of telling them those things? They already feel that way. Instead of breaking through that "victim mentality", you think it's a good idea to reinforce the wall? Come on. They need to know (and be reminded) the partner also has feelings. And those feelings might be hurt by the disorder. If they deny that, they'll get hurt. By the partner. Who also means well, and doesn't want to do that, but may be living in an unbearable pain. And they side of the story needs to be advocated too, if the therapy is supposed to be healthy. I mean, it's rather obvious, isn't it? It shouldn't require any kind of degree in psychology to see that. Just common sense.
I'm writing all this, because it reminds me of so many posts I've read here and written myself... Cassandra Syndrome... That is such a spot-on name. I've read this article, and it's all soooo true: https://www.theneurotypical.com/an-open-letter-to-high-functioning-autis.... I've been through that myself. I know it describes the NT's reality very accurately. And also this: https://theneurotypical.com/patient%20difficult_lives.html. That's so true for the Aspergers, but exactly as true for the ADHD, I'm surprised the term only functions in correlation with HFA. Those words do not seem cruel, insensitive or judgmental to me. What does, is denying the non partners the right to the same care and understanding as the affected ones. That's lack of tolerance, equality, responsibility, basically lack of any form of foundation for partnership.
Thanks............. Big Surprise
Submitted by kellyj on
I read trough this and saw the web sights and this one liner here pretty much says it all. “One doesn't have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
I'm going go back and say I'm probably not AS or HFP.....only because of one thing and this is it. I actually wanted to check myself and went back and read an article making comparisons to disorders where "empathy was not present" And it talk about ADHD ( appearing like at times ) these other disorders.....but back to square one with me.....I understand this most. And the one word I always use to use on myself was "oblivious". Yep, at times pretty much. But I do remember when I and where I learned how to gain empathy and mostly, someone had to come along and just "point it out to me" and that was it? "Oblivious" does not "prevent empathy" . lol You just need some pointers along the way that's all? And it is one of those things...when you finally catch on ....you get it. And when you get it.....you get it....then it's all down hill from their? At least in the understanding part of it which is a big part of it....at least to start?
Lack of empathy........not "oblivious at times" and then other times not. Mainly when you're stressed out depressed but otherwise your right in the ball park with everyone else? NOT SO......with lack of empathy. And it doesn't matter "which one of the reasons it's not there"..............if it walks like a Duck...then that's kinda what you get. With 3......you get eggroll......."that third person" you were mentioning, no doubt! ( ouch ) I'm still sore. lol
And...I was just thinking about what you said....and thinking..... "I can probably live with...or put up with damn near anything for the most part......I mean as far as a list of symptoms from any of these disorders and if I had only one choice to pick one in all of them to eliminate or choose to "pass" if that is not possible.......it'd be this one without question. It's like the tip of the iceberg is all you ( or anyone ) ) can see.....but there is a whole ton more where that came from and it only gets worse the farther down you go. It dwarfs all the other symptoms combined..and is still bigger and carries more weight.
I'm not a big fan of PC or "affirmative action" type plans ...because they promote "enabling behavior" and any of it I received growing up, didn't do me any good what so ever. Nature abhors a vacuum, water seeks it's own level, the path of least resistance is usually pretty clearly marked......and if you leave "cash" just lying around everywhere and you have access to it all the time on the honor system.....you know where this is going, because that is what's it like.
And that is the difference with some with HFA because I really do think she is just this.....right to the letter of the law. It's an unusual quality that is hard to place. My father? Not hard to place. LOL He was easy.....pretty out there which at least you know what you get. He wasn't too "sneaky" or "covert" about it....but at least it was clear....there was no beating around the bush. Actually...he was the "sneaky covert kind".....with everyone else.....except for those where he didn't care and it is looking at the man behind the curtain....and you can see him....but nobody else can? And no one will believe you...more to the point.
That was the one thing....that burned me more than anything......he had let his guard down with me one too many times...and now "I saw him".....and that's not such a good thing. But back to HPA if that is what D is ( which man....gotta say bingo on that one ) That's a different animal to say the least . I had a couple of visitors today and one of them was D;s friends husband who I've always liked and we worked together. We get along fine so there's no rub there. And it was just a mention that he made in relationship to something that was said......but he simply said " oh no....she's not just a bitch to you....she was a bitch to everyone......." when we all went to a concert together and that was reaffirming. She isn't a mean horrible person......she just lack empathy and is a bitch when ever it suits her and that kind of what he said.....so the whole "covert NPD thing" really doesn't fit either. It's just a completely different deal.....but the effect is the same on anyone with someone who simply lacks empathy like this. I mean NO empathy.....or understanding. I agree....both sides need to be addressed and need care attention ...equally for sure.
I also really appreciate the fact the folks here.....actually believed me as well? I still have my issues...but it's not this one I'm pretty darn sure? I not nearly half as oblivious ...from where I use to be :)
J
Big Surprise and J
Submitted by Chevron on
Big, I'm glad to see you posting. Wishing you and your partner a mountain of well. Best wishes to you as you as you explore whether by your lights your partner has ADHD and AS. The online writing about AS is so politically fraught, or was when I was tracking on it. I hope you keep reading. I've checked, some of the discussion boards that I thought werent heavily anti AS or anti "NT" are pretty inert now. Good luck with that. You're not in a moment for it, but if you do consider reading more professional sites, you might want to check out Tony Attwood's online resources.
J, you dont write like you have AS, at all. That from what people online who have been diagnosed with it have said about themselves,and from one friend offline who has it. Your descriptions of your inscape and feelings just dont fit what I've read of self descriptions by Aspies. : ) ask your T about it, if you need.
Chevron and Big Surprise
Submitted by kellyj on
I had a very thorough response done and then lost it...( hate that lol ) so I'll just include the most relevant part here. No ....I'm not AS......I almost positive now. Without going back through all my reasoning....here is an excerpt from the web sight that BS provided, and this excerpt told me everything I needed to know. For myself and what I know of myself for sure.
Key words: Distraction and Attention.....and in my own words ( going back to my childhood ) *******"bouncing off the walls"********, "scattered" "all over the place", "can't sit still", "NOT sedentary!!!!, "Moving","Movement", "eyes too big for stomach", "Highly Curious", "Interested in Everything""Tendency to be Influenced by Others","Oblivious","Easily Entertained and Amused","Self Sufficient", "Self Soothes pretty well , or "not bad" except for the emotional lability "threshold and overwhelm" as a contingency to the "self soothing part, "Deliberate","Low on "Reactively" ( instantly ) ".....long fuse on anger, no hair triggers, not "Volatile","less likely to "have outbursts" or "tantrums" even as a child but when I did....'they were BIG" ( emotional lability again ..."threshold/ overwhelm" dependent but "high tolerance or threshold flash point"...otherwise NOT. Only got in trouble in school for "talking in class"......that was pretty much it....."no conduct issues to speak of" aside for my occasion practival jokes but no chronic issue with acting out in class or in school. "Talking"....it was always about "talking" with me.....instead "Spontaneous"Highly Creative", ""Herding Cats","on the go", never stops moving", "easily distracted".....etc etc etc..........In my on words to describe my self going back to my childhood. It's the physical manifestation...and what is happening inside my head. I know that for sure.....better than anyone else.
"In the past, kids with Asperger Syndrome (now called high functioning autism) would sometimes get an ADHD diagnosis when they just couldn't focus in school. Today, we know a lot more about the differences between Aspergers and ADHD. Still, there are many similarities that can be difficult even for therapists to straighten out.
Theoretically, the distinction is easy enough. Asperger Syndrome is a part of the Autistic spectrum with emotional, social and possible verbal/motor impairments. ADHD and others may also have social components, but they're executive function disorders that usually go away as the youngster grows up. They also don't have the autistic traits often found in Asperger Syndrome kids. Asperger Syndrome is different in that children often have an almost uncanny ability to apply laser-like focus on a topic of interest to the exclusion of everything else, such as a teacher. ADHD, meanwhile, may not be able to focus on the teacher either, but that's because *****the attention is bouncing around all over the place.*******
Thus, Asperger-related attention problems are more about striking balance between interests, and especially the ability to prioritize what is necessary rather than merely what the youngster happens to find interesting."
More key words:...."Interest vs Distraction" ...."herding Cats" and "redirection". Singular "focus" or "interest".. vs. not enough "focus" to go around to all the things that are so fascinating and interesting!! LOL The capacity for Compassion, Empathy and Understanding vs NONE. Pretty much, without a doubt.
If D and I went to a Chinese Restaurant...it might go something like this.
I can't make up my mind which dish out of 50 I want....because they all look so good and interesting..that I can't pick just one or narrow it down to just "One"..........and can't make up my mind.
D on the other hand....would see 50 items on the menu....and can't decide.....because none of them sound very good or interesting......so she can't find anything there she really wants or is interesting to her........and can't make up her mind
One is positive....the other one is negative. Pretty much.....right on the money.....in making this kind of comparison. The difference as I see it..and exactly what I experienced daily....NO Doubt , what so ever...including my Chinese food menu analogy.....that happened "daily" too. Just like I said.
J
Communication
Submitted by SweetandSour on
Dear Big Surprise,
I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling depressed particularly about couples counseling. I think you should share what you shared with us with the counselor and your spouse and maybe you could create a structure that would protect against the after-shocks somewhat. I'm thinking along the lines of agreeing not to talk about the therapy sessions for a certain period of time afterward or to talk about them for only limited time frames or in a limited context. Maybe the spouse who wants to dissect them could do so in writing and you could promise to read it - or you both could agree that you'll read it in a week after she's re-read it and is sure it's what she wants you to know still. She might just be thinking out loud and everything might not be appropriate for her to share. I, who do not have ADHD, have a whole folder of e-mails I have written to my husband and not sent and I'm never going to. They are written when I'm hepped up about things, but often, after I passionately write it down, I feel better enough that I don't even need or want him to read it. I have learned to text similarly - I will either delete the text or if I'm torn, I'll save it to drafts, then later, when I've calmed down, I'll delete it. Knowing that that works for me is why I suggest that your spouse who wants to go over everything right after could write it down and then wait awhile before deciding if it's really what she wants to share. Clearly you are being overwhelmed and that is undermining the process for you. I'd love to hear what counselors would say about this because I'm sure others have had the same problem around therapy. I would suggest also that you not take everything your spouse says in the post-session critique to heart - maybe you can take a step back and recognize that she is probably feeling very threatened and is trying to come to terms with that - again the counselor should have something to say about that phenomenon. Communication is so hard for all of us - please don't be critical of yourself for having it be rough or slow-going. I should leave it at trying to be encouraging for you to stay the course, but actually, I kind of agree with you that couples counseling, at least in the vein of talking through issues, probably doesn't work very well with many people with ADHD. In my experience, they aren't able to work through things that way. I sense you may be doing individual counseling? That might be better at this point. I'm sure we're all interested to know how things go - if you end up finding value in the process or if it just isn't working. Good luck! And happy for you for all the things that have improved!
Hi BS...Communication.....
Submitted by c ur self on
Communication is by far our most difficult barrier....I tend to be a detailed, big picture, active communicator, w/ detailed thoughts and thinking, that flows out verbally. (definitely monologish) new word:).....It just doesn't work with her, and never will.....She is unable to capture, maintain and (fill in a blank if I use a wrong word) have any kind of comprehensive picture in her mind...I just loose her, more times than not...Which causes interruptions, frustration, and quick conflict...For years I just defended it...(And you know what that creates) because I truly wasn't' SEEING the problem, because the PROBLEM was in the inability of her mind...Not mine!....(I knew exactly what I just said LOL) When she would interrupt in front of others and show frustration...She might look at a friend or family member and say something negative about the way I was sharing or telling a story....And they would just look at her, and say I knew what he meant...She never just knows what I meant!...
So I really have to be intentional to not engage her w/ lots of facts....It's better to leave her in the dark about certain things, and let her ask questions later....Small price to pay for minimal conflict....Quiet is good...It's very good...It's up to me to understand the limitations, and be wise enough to limit my verbal approach w/ her to one or two sentences at a time...So I don't loose her and just create frustration for her...Is it AS? or just her ADHD?....I don't know, and really don't care....It is what it is...And adderall don't change it....So I must live in an understanding manner of it.....
I really hope you can figure out how to maneuver with her in a way that limits the frustration in communication atttempts...They do make it difficult....I bet your thinking, that may be C's greatest understatement...LOL.....
My rules of engagement with my H, sad to say
Submitted by jennalemone on
The rules are only for my self respect and sanity. There can be no rules for H. He forgets and tramples on any "rules".
1. Like C, only one or two complete sentences in any total conversation. Longer, free flowing conversations always end up in an argument because H gets overwhelmed. Long patches of silence happen while he "thinks things through" and possibly forgets he is in a conversation and does not respond.
2. Never ask a direct question about ANYTHING. Any question will be taken as an insult or accusation. Rather than ask for cooperation, I must get the pieces of the puzzle together and begin the project myself in front of H. Then H might say he will do it and take the job away from me.. Getting it all together and starting a project is the hard part for H...he does not like planning ahead.
3. Do not take it personal if H starts to accuse and starts to name call over the slightest things. Because unless it is a joke (even then sometimes there will be a sarcastic response), any communication is an accusation and cause for a fight. That, or else he is gaslighting me to "get away" with not sharing something or doing something.
4. Do not take the accusations or name calling personally. But do not stop making statements. Stopping talking yourself begins a sad process of losing your self. Sometimes you have to hear your own voice and thoughts. . It is not your fault that your words overwhelm him. There is no way to have a rational planning talk and share your life together. Accept that that is not going to happen. You are in this marriage by yourself. Except when things are fun and there are other people around, don't expect H to give of his time and energy to the mundane workings of life together. And don't expect that H will come to you to work together on ANYTHING. My H is independent of me. It took me 40 years to realize and accept these things. I didn't want these things to be true but they are.
About the same here Jenna...
Submitted by c ur self on
It's very difficult for my W to come to me for a planning talk also....I've pointed this out to her quiet a bit over the years....She will just announce her plans..(then say, I want you to come, like that makes it OK) I've told her it's living rebellious, and in a single mind-set...She hears me, and know's I'm right....
She really never worked on it much (kept doing it) until I asked her to leave about 3 months ago, if she was going to just live like she was single....I truly think it's more about what she is comfortable with in her independent thinking (habit, and boredom also, non acceptance of the mundane) then just flat out wanting to rebel, or not consider mutual planning and making the marriage the priority...
The people she loves, and who loves her, who accepted her, and even enabled her by looking the other, or who would just lash out at her to stop it at times, like she was a child...(I tell you, that pisses me off when they do that, it's disrespectful, and it should be handled differently, w/ respect, it they wanted it help more than harm, but she would accept it, maybe pout a minute, with hurt feelings...I guess because she knows they love her)...when she is trying to control things or having outbursts about something...That's her sisters and their families and her two Sons....They all live 2 to 3 hours away (even both adult boys are living away)....So before we married (she was 46) she would load up the boy's and spend a lot of time w/ her sisters...her parents was a live most of that time...I never got to meet them, they had passed away before we met....They would just host her and the boys over the weekend, and they would drive back when the work week started....She was very busy with them as they got older, soccer, boys choir, baseball etc....She just let the house go, she played soccer in college....
So when she works out on her long stretches her mind is usually busy on where to go...(like I said, has no real convictions to learn to be content in the marriage and our home)...anyway for the first time, I feel truly hopeful, that we are turning a curve for some real change...In us both....We just can't keep repeating the past, so I think she realizes I am serious, and if she want's me on another trip or to take part in family outings she is going to have to learn to love her God given role as a wife....I've finally learned to believe what I see:), I'm not going to continue repeating the past....
I think about you guy's a lot, and wonder if we could have a better attachment (ability to grow closer) if we had met and married and had children together....I love me wife, but the thought scares me...But love is capable of much....
It's not that doing things or visiting family or traveling is bad, on the contrary....It can great fellowhship, and good times....But it can't be life....You can't forsake your responsibilities in your own marriage and home like they didn't exist....That is why so many us feel abandoned and estranged, even in their presents....Unless your priorities are right and both parties are doing the work it just bares on you over the years....I think about you Jenna, you Zapp and so many more...I pray for you ladies, and the guys too.....
Better hit the hay...
Blessings...
C
The deeper you dig, the harder it is to get out
Submitted by smd1409 on
Remember to take care of yourself. You can't solve problems without yourself. If you feel your own health is at risk of something, if you leave it till later, it'll become harder to recover from. It's best to deal with it now because your health is the most important thing you need in order to make progress.
These problems won't really end. Nobody's ever does. You'll constantly find problems coming up whenever you shut one down or even long before you can. Sometimes we need to detach ourselves from these problems for a moment and just accept life for the way it currently is. In this case to have a nice short break with your partner or go on a mini vacation like a theme park or something. If with your partner on this, just a time where you can be with her and just love her the way she is. No considering aspies, no ADHD, just a simple you are who you are and I still don't want you to go. Maybe even just a coffee for yourself or lovingly with her, no matter what tries to ruin it. Some time to set for yourself and get yourself together again so you can gain that positive outlook to keep you going. You know you've made a lot of progress so this break isn't really unwarranted.
As for ADHD or Aspies, if ADHD methods work, then it works. If methods to deal with aspies work, then it works. Go for whichever is more effective. The fact that you've made progress with ADHD methods means you haven't been going in the wrong direction whatsoever. At most you've been going in a direction which is on the way, but not completely efficient or effective. Don't take away this win from yourself.
Thank you for your post, smd.
Submitted by Chevron on
Thank you for your post, smd.
Hi. That second link in your
Submitted by Feathers on
Hi. That second link in your post hurts my heart. My husband has ADHD and my son has Aspergers. In living with both, I can see how some people can mix ADHD up with Aspergers, but Aspergers cant usually be mistaken for ADHD.
What I mean is, there are similarities, but they are vastly different. Just like ADHD, Aspergers is a spectrum disorder.
That second link...heartlessaspergers!!! :( If there's anything that a person, child or adult, with Aspergers is not, it's heartless! They do have empathy! It takes work to get a person with an ASD out of their world and into yours, but it can be done. Just please, dont take what that second website says as gospel. My son is 23, is high functioning to a point on some things, but for most things he functions at a 10 year olds level. He's always been empathetic and loving. He has a huge heart!
Dear Feathers,
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Dear Feathers,
I am very sorry if the link offended you. I can only assure you that wasn't my intention. I know, the address is awful. But the article isn't, not for me. It describes quite accurately how the non partner feels. I have now shortened it to mask the offensive address. Please accept my apology.
I am not saying the ADHD/AS folks have no heart. And I don't think 'those sites' say that either. For me, the gist is that the non partner also has feelings, and those feelings might not be addressed 'correctly' by the partner who's on the spectrum.
I am not saying my partner has no empathy. I'm not saying she doesn't love me. On the contrary, I know for sure she does. A lot. She's one of the kindest, nicest people I know. That's why I love her, in spite of all difficulties. I wouldn't be able to love a heartless person. I wouldn't be able to go through what I'm going if I thought it was her fault, if I suspected any maliciousness. There's no evil there. Just a different way of thinking, and hence, lack of mutual understanding. The love and appreciation that we feel for each other gets lost somewhere in between, because we both express those feelings differently and we both expect them to be expressed differently by the partner.
But having a partner who's 40 years old and in many aspects functions as a 10 year old MAY and WILL always be a struggle. It cannot be just wished away, swept under the rug by saying "everything is ok", when clearly it's not. People on the spectrum DO have some special needs, and we, as their partners, DO have some special needs too. To be able to function as a family, we must be able to recognize, respect and address those needs, and for that, we need lots of tutoring. The tutor who says "you're not trying hard enough" is a bad tutor. God knows I'm trying as hard as I can. Actually, I think it goes a little beyond my capabilities. So the right way to do this, I think, is to find someone who not only says "try differently", but also says "I will show you how", and does. That person, be it a psychiatrist, a coach, you name it - they must understand the trauma of the partner. The problem is not the AS partner. It's the AS itself. But it does exist, it does permeate our life and we BOTH need to be trained to deal with it. We BOTH need to accept things will be hard. That, I think is the basic condition, if the marriage is supposed to have at least a semblance of partnership. There's a huge difference between what I expect from a life partner and what I expect from a child. Please remember we're two adults, trying to have a relationship.
It's very easy to forget the non partner has feelings as well. It's definitely easy for the people who don't live this life, and, in fact, it's so easy, that I often do it myself. I just subject my needs to my partner's needs (which are never satisfied, even if I do). This results in loss of self-respect, and you can't really respect others unless you feel good about yourself. So I'm not doing this anymore. I have too much respect for my partner to go into a cycle of self-loathing. If I'm supposed to be able to show her how much I love her and how much I care about her, I cannot be the only one responsible. I refuse to be the only one who faces this condition, both for mine and her sake. If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
I am well aware ADHD and AS are two separate conditions. I am not mixing those up. But for us, I think, it's JUST a mixed thing. There are very strong traits of both in my partner. That's why the diagnosis, if it ever comes, will probably be vague. There are many behaviors that overlap, although the cause might be either this or that. Depending on the cause, I should react in an adequate manner, specific for the underlying cause of that particular behavior. But I know I won't be able to always tell which is which.
I know I'll try until I break. But, if that's possible, I would really like to avoid that "breaking" part. For that, I need support. And support only comes from understanding. Never from denial.
I strongly believe there are no heartless people. I sincerely hope that by explaining my reasons I've managed to soothe your heart a bit.
I wish you and your family all the best.