From J, in another thread, a starter package on attachment theory
(sorry that the boldfacing that you used got lost in the copy & paste, J.)
[My therapist’s ] professional opinion and stand on this entire relationship dynamic process he has made very clear to me in no uncertain terms which says "ADHD is not the cause or the source of this dynamic even if there seems to be a more common "One" or "Two" that seem to be the "most common". Which means they are the ones that seemed to more often observed and documented with people who have ADHD. These dynamics are relationship ones. That means.....two people always have to be in interaction with each other in every given case. If you want to find your answers or figure out what the REAL problem is....Attachment theory and relationship "Styles" are where you should be looking."
And before I say anything else.....EVERYONE has a relationship "style" whether it be unhealthy or not. Healthy is considered "secure attachment" and unhealthy or damaging is considered all the others. But because it's "dynamic" ( or in motion and is moving and changing) even a secure attached individual will default to acting in "insecure" or "unhealthy" ways themselves when paired with an "insecure attached" individual. The feeling of "losing yourself" means....you are no longer secure even if you weren't that way to begin with. If you've lost yourself along the way....you are not acting like you did before and are now just as much to blame for continuing on the path you're on as the person who was less "secure" in this way as you were. Or vise versa.
This is not a DISORDER!!! I repeat..NOT!!! There are "attachment disorders" and are extreme and very rare. The level of those kinds of disorders come from things that are way out of the norm! Having different attachment styles or even insecure ones are not only common....but prevalent in everyone at different times for different reasons. It is part of the human condition and is part of being human to be this way to a certain degree. The matter of degree is what makes the determination and of when it becomes a problem in your life...it just means it's time to do something different. You can change a "insecure attachment" to a "secure one" and anyone can do this barring something else involved. It just takes some work and effort to do it and getting some help like it sounds that you are doing.
Within the theory itself...that means, your wife HAS to do it too especially if she didn't start out being "secure" herself. Both people have to do the work if they both have "insecure" or unhealthy "attachment styles" which most people could stand a little work anyway no matter how secure you think you are. It can't hurt but it might make you a little depressed. Thinking.....pretty much a given at least for a little while:) But after that....it only gets better.
An example here from this thread alone. As you know....ADHD makes you impulsive at times.(me too) "Impulsive" is not "compulsive" and Neurotic if you understand the difference? Neither is "impulsive"..."reactionary"....... even though all of these things can be easily confused as being similar of one in the same looking at it from the outside.
Taking this a step further....if you have a tendency to be emotional libel....IF you do react to something emotionally....it might be less controlled as someone who isn't this way. Okay...that in itself did not cause you to react...but it's still a problem albeit, a different one or in addition to being reactionary. You don't just self implode or self combust sitting in a vacuum despite being emotionally libel!. You don't just go off for no reason and whether it's founded on solid ground or not has everything to do with Attachment Theory and really nothing to do with ADHD or being emotionally libel. It's not Schizophrenia and you hear voices coming from your dog telling you to go kill people at random out of paranoid delusions?
In other words....ADHD may be symptomatic with emotionality and impulse but your cognition and conscious and unconscious thinking and thoughts are where these things come into play. This is true for everyone ADHD or not. As my T explained it to me......ADHD is like adding nutmeg to the dish and flavors it a bit differently than without it. It has it's own unique flavor that differs from other ingredients. But the dish itself in this respect....is not the dish itself....attachment theory is.
So if that's the case....focusing on the ADHD as the source for you problems in your relationships is looking under the wrong rock in trying to find those answers even though it is the cause for many annoyances that really ARE the nutmeg in the soup.
I am glad to hear that this helped you as well the same as it has for me. It might be a good topic to discuss with your councilor if you haven't done so already. It's a BIG topic and requires some time to absorb and then go back and keep revisiting it again just to get a better understanding of it. That's the work you have to do or you will soon forget about it (as I have) and then keep going back again until it really sinks in and you begin to see it on your own without anyone there to help you see it anymore. I am just know seeing the light and have a long way to go!! Lol
http://jebkinnison.com/2014/05/05/attachment-type-combinations-in-relati...
(link is external)
… There is a video that was taken off of YouTube that was suppose to accompany it...so I included it in a separate link below since it is one of the examples that he was using to show this very thing. It is enlightening to say the least.
link http://jebkinnison.com/2014/09/10/domestic-violence-ray-and-janay-rice/
(link is external)
And in a second post from J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I personally have an issue with this that I can apply directly to what I was mentioning earlier about "attachment styles." I most definitely had an insecure attachment (not a disorder thankfully) but none the less....it use to cause me a great deal of problems in my relationships. Through therapy....I am pretty centered most of the time unless I am really stressed and in a weakened state to cope and manage. By default....I will regress a bit but that too I come to my senses pretty quickly without much of a delay. The visceral reaction I have however...is still there even if I manage it and I know not to buy in or go with it since I understand why this is for myself. On most days I can let it slide by without a hitch and it's no longer a problem. I have learned to self soothe and move past these moments without too much difficulty.
You were wondering about what triggers your H and speculating why he does this? I think what is most important as you said is not the "why" but only that " it is."
But as I am and always curious....for myself....I had a more burning need to know. The key words my T gave me were "dismissive", "avoidant" and "disorganized." He did this somewhat surreptitiously in our (my wife and I ) therapy session together for my benefit because this was causing me so much anxiety and I myself was not managing this well at all.
Without going into all the details if you are curious for a better explanation, you can look this up yourself. But the ball park that I think you are curious about has to do with this very thing.
Using myself as a guinea pig for my part (the past insecure attachment or my default if things go badly) mine is considered "anxious/preoccupied". It took me a long time to really process this and arrive at this and being able to be more confident placing myself in the past because it is really a jumble at first and like reading horoscopes, and you can easily fit yourself into more than one or more without question....so it's really easy to put yourself in the wrong category without some professional help. Again...these things are associated with all kinds of disorders but based on our previous discussions about not diagnosing......(and having conformation by my T in respect to anything outside of ADHD) this is the category where I have been and still am if I am not being centered as my default.
I couldn't copy this pdf file and past it here....but this is an excerpt from a very good article associating this with ADHD and the description of what I personally believe is true for myself based on my entire experience with this including what I have learned through therapy.( the parts only relevant to me) It also continues to explain what I am now feeling pretty confidently is happening with my wife that helps explain this better. The reason for doing this? Compassion and empathy for my wife and a better understanding of her. In the moment when I really am struggling with her in this area...it is the thing that I can remind myself and know it has nothing to do with me and not to take it personally.
Discussion
The present study examined attachment and autonomy for late-diagnosed adults with ADHD of the combined type. The percentage of securely attached adults with ADHD in this study is 18 percent, over three times lower than in the normal population (59 %). This percentage comes close to the percentage of 13 that is found by IJzendoorn and Bakermans-Kranenberg (1996) for a clinical sample of psychiatric patients. Most frequently, adults with ADHD reported the fearful attachment style (44 %), followed by the preoccupied style (27 %). These two styles are characterized by a negative image of self. Many studies demonstrate adults with ADHD to suffer from low self-esteem (e.g. Barkley, n.d.; Kooij et al., 2010; Ramsay & Rostain, 2005). The first hypothesis, adults with ADHD reporting more insecure attachment styles than the normal population, was confirmed.
Furthermore, it was hypothesized that people with an insecure attachment style would report more psychological problems than people with a secure attachment style. This hypothesis was only confirmed partly: adults with ADHD who have a preoccupied attachment style reported significantly more psychological problems than both the secure and the dismissive group.
For the fearful group no significant differences were found with any of the other styles, both secure and insecure.
These results indicated two interesting findings. First of all, the dismissive attachment style, which is an insecure style, could be seen as “equal” to the secure attachment style when general psychological functioning is considered. Wearden, Lamberton, Crook & Walsh (2005) found similar results in their study of a normal population. Secondly, the preoccupied attachment style seems to generate most psychological problems. Analyzing the original model of attachment by Bartholomew and Horowitz (1991), the common factor between the Attachment and autonomy in adult ADHD 16 secure and dismissive attachment style is a positive image of self.
Applying this to the first finding, a positive image of self seems to have a larger impact on general psychological functioning than a positive image of others. Wearden et al. (2005) found dismissing individuals to be prone to the social desirability bias, suggesting they might have negative symptoms and feelings without reporting them. Murphey and Bates (1997), however, suggested another explanation. They found that people who are highly critical of themselves are more vulnerable to depression. Additionally, they found dismissively attached individuals to be less critical of themselves compared to individuals with other insecure attachment styles. Therefore, they would be less vulnerable to depression and consequently will report less symptoms.
Another explanation might be related to the construct of psychological functioning itself, that is, by nature, more about intrapersonal wellbeing and less about interpersonal functioning. Therefore, it can be expected to be influenced more by someone’s self-image than by someone’s image of others. Trying to explain the second result that the preoccupied attachment style seems to generate most psychological problems, led us to the original model as well.
Supposedly, people with ADHD who have a negative image of themselves and a positive image of others (preoccupied) have even more problems in psychological functioning than people who have a negative image of themselves and a negative image of others (fearful). Many studies found fearful attachment to generate more psychological problems than preoccupied attachment (Vanheule and Declercq, 2009; Murphy and Bates, 1997; Wearden et al., 2005; Pielage, 2000)
However, other studies found the preoccupied style to have the highest association with various psychological problems (Bogaerts and Daalder, 2011; Sumer, 2001; Verdecias, Girardin, Ferdinand, Casimir & Browne). Verdecias et al. stressed the rumination habits of preoccupiedly attached individuals. The original model of Bartholomew and Horowitz (1991) offers another possible explanation for the difference between the preoccupied and fearful Attachment and autonomy in adult ADHD 17 style. By avoiding close involvement with others, persons with a fearful style protect themselves against anticipated rejection.
Preoccupied individuals, however, need acceptance from others to increase their self-esteem, which is a mission impossible by nature, and experience rejection every time they try. Since adults with ADHD often suffer from a chronic sense of failure already (Ramsay & Rostain, 2005), the additional failure experiences resulting from their preoccupied attachment style, might damage their self-esteem even more, thus causing them to report more psychological problems. Besides attachment style, autonomy was studied in adults with ADHD. The first two hypotheses concerning autonomy were confirmed: adults with ADHD had significantly lower self-awareness and higher sensitivity to others than the normal population.
This agrees with the possible explanations mentioned before; additionally, still unknown factors might play a role as well. The findings of Rapport et al. (2002) that adults with ADHD would be less sensitive to others, were contradicted by the results of this study.
Although it was expected that adults with ADHD would be less capable of managing new situations, they were found not to differ from the normal population. It is possible that several explanatory factors have a neutralizing effect on each other, resulting in an average score on capacity for new situations for the whole group. The same principle may apply to subgroups within the sample, for example related to attachment style. More research is needed to further investigate this subject. Concerning the relationship between the three autonomy components and psychological functioning, capacity to manage new situations correlated most strongly with all BSI-scales, followed by sensitivity to others. The hypothesis concerning self-awareness was rejected. Interestingly enough, capacity to manage new situations was the only component of autonomy on which adults with ADHD didn’t deviate from the normal Attachment and autonomy in adult ADHD 18 population. However, since the sample used for present study is rather small, certain effects that were expected might have remained invisible due to lack of power.
Disseminating this a bit for you from a recommendation and partial explanation of why someone might interrupt you if they see the conversation headed in a direction that starts to trigger this particular defense mechanism?
How can someone heal from disorganized attachment?
The important message to take away is that there is such thing as “earned secure attachment.” People with disorganized attachment can heal by making sense of their story and forming a coherent narrative. They can find healthier ways to deal with unresolved trauma and loss by facing and feeling the full pain of their experiences. Hiding from their past or trying to bury their emotions doesn’t work, as painful feelings will be triggered in moments of stress. Getting help to resolve early trauma can come in many forms. Most important is to form a healthy relationship that exists over time with a romantic partner, a friend or a therapist, which allows a person to develop trust and resolve his or her issues with attachment.
Bottom line? The underlying emotion that is buried underneath that is blocking a person from being able to look inward at themselves is fear. It can be terrifying when you've used denial (or dissociation in this case ) all your life to protect yourself from the pain of past hurtful experiences and trauma. Things that trigger these past blocked memories will illicit these kind of responses even if that person is completely unaware of it.
I think this kind of interrupting is another manifestation of doing this very thing?
Again, I wish that I were
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Again, I wish that I were able to re-bold easily what you had bolded J. For any reader, what J has set apart under the title "Discussion" above is professional assessment of research. J turned to make an application to the discussion on this board in a couple places, and didn't bold that, but I think you can track when he's doing that.
J, some of the things in what
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J, some of the things in what you said in your two posts to which I want to respond
First "ADHD is not the cause or the source of this dynamic even if there seems to be a more common "One" or "Two" that seem to be the "most common".
I have had some sense that this might be true of me and my partner. Setting aside that one of us is just having a bad day, or is quite fatigued, what this theory to me is talking about seems true, that it’s going to have to be the pair of us…once again, not just one of us…changing, if we are doing a dynamic that is persistently harmful to eithr of us. I’m writing to confirm.
You wrote: "EVERYONE has a relationship "style" whether it be unhealthy or not. Healthy is considered "secure attachment" and unhealthy or damaging is considered all the others. But because it's "dynamic" ( or in motion and is moving and changing) even a secure attached individual will default to acting in "insecure" or "unhealthy" ways themselves when paired with an "insecure attached" individual. "
I nearly cried, to remember the people coming on whatever site, including this one, saying, “I used to feel myself balanced, cheerful, and now I see myself in trouble, having lost myself. “
Of course, one can never miss a plus and say only the minus: if someone with what you have called one of the unhealthy attachment styles partners up with someone who has a secure attachment style….and who is solid as a rock in it… there can be a dynamic adjustment for the unhealthy one toward something better. But my goodness, people are not made out of kryptonite.
You wrote: "This is not a DISORDER!!! I repeat..NOT!!! "
Hugs to you for writing that. And for also making clear your understanding that, if both partners do something about it, not only a dynamic between the couple but an attachment style itself, can change.
…when I took one of those questionnaires in one of the links you posted, I did find myself thinking about myself back in my 20s and 30s as well as now. I do have a sense that my attachment habits have changed some.
You wrote: " ....I am pretty centered most of the time unless I am really stressed and in a weakened state to cope and manage. By default....I will regress a bit but that too I come to my senses pretty quickly without much of a delay. "
Similar here. Especially when I’m very fatigued or ill, say, with the flu, or in some way really down, those really old, ancient copings from when I was child through twenties can happen. You know, I’ve also noticed that my partner is very affected by his fatigue.
I think the whole long passage that you bolded under "Discussion" is worth a close read, and I plan to reread it a couple more times before I let it go, myself. Here are just two passages from it, now:
"Applying this to the first finding, a positive image of self seems to have a larger impact on general psychological functioning than a positive image of others"
And
"Although it was expected that adults with ADHD would be less capable of managing new situations, they were found not to differ from the normal population"
The professional who wrote this report says at the bottom that his sample of people of ADHD was small, and so he’s reporting his sample, not all people with ADHD. So I’ll remark as well on only my sample, my relationship at home. I agree with the latter statement, as I watch and think about myself and my partner.
Now how he manages is partially shaped by his past, his repertoire of coping, and his toolkit (in which I include his ADHD generated actions). Ditto me, different toolkit, in some things, different past, different to the present repertoire of coping :)
And whether or not he tries...or I try...to handle challenges in the relation is of course up to each of us.
Thanks so much for opening the door to attachment style matters, J.
What about me will hinders a healthy attachment....
Submitted by c ur self on
The one question I have to ask myself is; How do my priorities, habits, likes and dislikes, fears etc...relate to having an healthy attachment of two being one....Help? Hinder?
If both parties can be truthful with in their own hearts and communicate those feelings then this honesty can help us avoid all the work and pain that occurs after the fact...Self-awareness can help us avoid some of the mystery and much of the pain some times...
c
C It's the Connection That Makes You One
Submitted by kellyj on
You have to CREATE the pathway to get there from inside you. The attachment that you have is your own....you can't extend it or get it through another person. You have to connect up with yourself on the inside before you can connect to anyone else on the outside. That's what creating the pathway is all about. Take another look at what Jesus said and see it through a different lens.
Test of fire my friend....either you go through it or you don't. But once you do...there is no going back:)
J
J
Submitted by c ur self on
(Test of fire my friend....either you go through it or you don't. But once you do...there is no going back:)
You are right again! But, that wasn't my point...I know for sure I made a hurried up decision based on my own neediness...All I'm saying here is for ever can be a long time!...It's OK to be real with yourself, and listen to others who aren't blinded by emotion....All I'm saying....
Blessings Friend....
C
C Please Read This
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi C,
I wanted to take a moment and make an attempt to give you a tool to use with your wife. I'm saying this as it applies to the "Discussion" on attachment styles in the article about these things associated with ADHD. This where it gets a little tricky for me to be the one you might trust to tell you anything about your wife and the specifics of what you should do or that anything I might say will have any bearing what so ever? This isn't what I am trying to do. This tool itself does not do that.....your the one who has to apply it and use it as you see fit...that isn't anything I can do for you or tell you exactly "how" to use it. Only you will know that and I can't give you any help there.
But if you have an open mind and don't immediate discount this thinking it won't work....I really think it is worth a listen and then giving it a try. This is one of those things that is an indirect approach that won't necessarily make sense since it is also one of those counter intuitive things that feels like just the opposite is true. In that respect....if you apply what you know, what you think and what you feel here....they will tell you that it's the wrong thing to do and you'll go right by it and dismiss it for that reason alone. I don't need to convince you of this or spend any more time explaining that to you....I am sure you understand this and know what I am talking about here. The thing that I have found true so many times....is just having someone bring to my attention which ones are like this....and which ones aren't. Just being able to identify which is which is more often the problem. This is where I might be able to help?
Going back to the attachment theory again and the three most common possibilities for someone with ADHD: anxious/preoccupied, fearful/avoidant, and secure. As it describes this and the differences between the three.....you can boil the entire article down into three different categories.......
1) Anxious/preoccupied- low self image of self but a high image of others. This is the one I fell into growing up. What that means is.....you trust and like other people and believe them when they tell you things about yourself. You do this because you believed your parents when they told you you were a bad, disobedient persons who's only value is doing this right and not causing any problems for them. Your focus is on them and how you can be better so you will be accepted by them.
One of the most damaging sound bites I can ever remember is having both my parents repeatedly tell me that "if you are like this, NO one will like you." Specifically what they were referring too were my ADHD symptoms which of course...I took to mean ME. This is what you believe because this is what you were told to believe and since you know you are not bad or disobedient and want to be accepted by them....you do everything you can to please them and show them that you are not this way at all. You become obsessed (or preoccupied ) with gaining approval since on a primordial level in our innate programming...survival means acceptance.
If you are to survive and get your needs met on this level means a matter of life and death. This is how babies are born. Human babies that is. We're the only species who are like this on the planet. All other living creatures have a different set up than this. A baby horse (or colt) for example is born standing up and in minutes after birth...have these instincts pre- programmed into them to tell them when to run out of fear of being killed by predators. It's this fear that motivates them into action and they do it without ever being told or taught how and they use their mother to follow and take the lead in where to go. That's the only part that they don't have until they learn this themselves.
Survival of the species is the primary directive and motivation and it's in this innate programming. It's not a thinking or intuitive thing.....it's purely instinctual. Human babies are different. They are completely helpless without their mothers care and nurture and if they don't get it....they will die. This takes the need to get their needs met and dependence on their mothers (and later father if available) to a whole different level that continues onward for many years until they are ready to go out on their own (US that is)
This dependence relationship then becomes even more critical since the primary directive is survival which is founded on the principal of life and death. Intuition comes later based or founded on this principal and is flavored by your experiences and adjusts to these experiences which then forms the beliefs themselves. So know going back to my example here and how I came to believe what I was told. In it's very essence.....if you can't believe your parents and trust they are right.....who can you believe? And yet.....I knew I wasn't bad or disobedient and I tried my best to follow what they said and yet.....the results are exactly what I said.
This sends a mixed message that a child is not able to figure out for themselves. Survival then becomes tenuous and unpredictable and you become extremely focused on gaining approval which will satisfy this primordial fear and make it go away so you can relax and not be so anxious. In this case....it's chronic anxiety that this creates. All you know....is you want this feeling of anxiety to go away and there seems only one way to make that happen...
Success and approval becomes the very thing you focus on most and yet....what is missing is the trust you have that this will not go away as soon as you fail. In it's very essence at the core of this.......failure means death. So does rejection and non-acceptance. As long as you can meet the standard.....you will not die. This isn't tied to your subconscious thoughts or intuition....it's tied directly to your innate per-programming of survival which is the very thread or fabric of your existence. When I said this runs deep.....I wasn't kidding. Self awareness in this case...does little to counter act this effect until you understand it at THAT level. As "N" was saying here....there are many levels here to your psyche and this one goes to the core of our very existence since it's the one that we all start with and we all have one in the same. This is the level of connection that you can use to connect with and understand your wife"s behaviors as well as your own if you can wrap your head around this and believe it's true.
As my T said...."the people who figured this stuff out are at the top of the game and know what they are talking about. They really are the pioneers of this kind of approach and it has proven to be true in many respects even though of course.."theory" means something that is what is current to date. That doesn't mean it's just speculation or wrong even if it's not 100% proven beyond all means......but 90% or better is no laughing matter either and is something to really consider. I just made up the % but I think you get the point. All of this is saying one thing....you have to start trusting something and this is as good a place as any?
This brings me to the tool I was talking about. For me.....if approval means survival....then that's the tool to use for me in ALL cases which will work best to get me motivated in the right direction. This is very effective with me and it works EVERY TIME without failure. Why it works is what I just described even though I always knew this ever since I was little but could explain it or tell you why before. Approval decreases my anxiety which in turn....increases my success rate and meeting the demands placed on me by others.
For me now for example....any strategy that incorporates approval as the reward system will do this.....any strategy that doesn't will turn me in the opposite direction every time. It is the single component necessary to have anything work for me and if it's not there or the wrong strategy is used....it will fail just as often anyone tries. So under this strategy.....the things to avoid at all costs are:
-outward signs of disapproval
-negative reactions, negative reinforcement and punishment as a motivator
-rejection inducing; shunning, disdain, contempt, withdrawing and withdrawing affection, withholding sex and intimacy, closing off access to you, and finally anger.
These are all "sensitivities" or "triggers" that are more out of scale than someone who is not like this as much.
You can see without taking this any further.....this is a tall order and a big pill to swallow in every respect to you. What is most important to take away from this is trust. That along with the faith that it will work. For someone with this type of insecure attachment...this is the pathway in trying to get through to them (and the denial) on this level which comes from this primary "drive" that since they are hyper-vigilantly looking out for these things even if they don't know it. When they get that "hit" inside them that tells them there is something to fear.....these things trigger those responses and trigger this fundamental alarm that says that their basic needs are not going to be met. Taking this to the final conclusion or end of the line....it means death and not surviving where for someone who is secure....these feelings will not be so intense and they will be able to override them and move past them.
It is or can become an obsessive quality that they take on out of this primary obsession with not dying and staying alive if you can understand it on that level? As my T described this feeling as...."tantamount to annihilation" since in terms of survival....it is. It's the very thing that denial is actually protecting a person like this from feeling.
It is extreme (irrational) and uncontrollable fear. That's why depending on the individual....how safe they will feel will dependent on how much denial they will need to protect themselves. The more fear...the more denial is needed. Behaviors that compensate this fear are in their very infancy......irrational. Trying to approach this on a symptomatic level on the surface will do nothing to apiece this or make it go away for someone like this.
The cure is trust, acceptance and approval in every respect. That's the tool to use and use it as often as you can. This will fix it from the inside out not the other way around if that makes sense. Ultimately....you can't fix it...but you can nurture it and guide a person from it with this tool which is the one thing in your power to do. Your letting them come to you...not trying to force them or push them into it. That won't work.
But first....you have to find it in yourself to do it and trust that it will work. If you don't believe it will....then you won't keep doing it long enough without seeing the results you want and stop doing it which is the only reason I can think to stop? Test of fire. So C....this is where I am speculating a bit...but since we both have confirmed some of the same behaviors with our wives by our own reports......this is where I might be able to help you narrow this down a little further. Going on to the second insecure attachment style.
2) Fearful/avoidant - If you go back and look at the article....it's the most common of the two by quite some margin. In respect to myself....mine is quite a bit less common (out of the two most common) which might explain a lot of things as to why I am even here compared to other men with ADHD even if you discount my self awareness that I have gained through therapy and treatment.?
As it was described...higher self image of your self and lower image of others. In other words....no trust or faith in others.... or rather, more fearful of others and more suspicious and more trusting of themselves in general which might appears as more self confident and more in control of themselves. The ironic paradox here in theory....they are actually less self confident, more fearful and less trusting than the anxious-preoccupied counter part even though on the surface....it looks like the just the opposite. Counter intuitive...yes it is?
Thinking in those terms.....a completely different tool is required than the one that works best for me at least to start with. "Fear" not "anxiety" is the primary drive which takes this to even a different level. It is closer to the primary survival response and it goes one step deeper than anxiety. Denial then becomes even more important to fend off this fear and maintain this illusion of self confidence and a high self image.
If bad enough....dissociation goes one step beyond denial. This can get closer to delusional and losing touch with reality than just feeling anxious and a bit fearful if that is what is needed to protect a person from this kind of intense fear if that is what they are experiencing most of the time. This was not discussed in the article but when it goes on to that level.....it's considered "disorganized attachment" which goes into a completely different sub category if that is the predominant source if I'm not mistaken. This is not just insecure attachment but is more disrupted or disturbed internally at that point which is why it was not brought into this I'm speculating?
I think at that point....there is a complete severing between the past and present to insulate a person from the pain of the past. It's seems to that degree.... dissociation with your self and who you really believe you are or....want yourself to be from the "favorable good image" you've created inside your head. A person like this doesn't just have distortions of the past memories but "complete black outs" or "holes" in their memories and cannot recall them at all. What gets recalled are actually ...filling in the blanks with what ever fits into their self image which is not based on reality.
A side note here: dissociation as a child can be used momentarily as needed which has been researched as actually being a healthy thing as long as it's just used for protection to keep functioning properly but not get entrenched as full time coping mechanism.
But as the article suggests.... -trust and faith in others along with continual reassurance should be your primary tool to use. At the top of the list
Interpreting the article a bit further....it's actually from a deep seated lack of faith and trust in themselves but that is disconnected from the conscious through denial which keeps them having a better self image.
So...that means....acceptance is fine, but trust and faith are more important here at first. Building trust is primary over just acceptance alone. That would seem the obvious tool to use as the main one and approach it from that level first. The thing to remember is the primordial fear..... which is "tantamount to annihilation". This is really what this person is avoiding and what you are fighting up against in them. If you can apply this to your thinking....it will help you use this as the "tool" as a means to guide you and then apply everything else you know to it to help you choose and decide when and how to use it? That IS what you have control of yourself and what you can do that will really make the difference.
Compassion, empathy and forgiveness are key in making use of this tool. I hope that makes sense C. This is why it's so important to understand the things that you can do to help or hurt your own situation and being more confident in knowing it will work. To the degree it does is no guarantee...but the better you learn to use it....the better it will work.
Test of fire my friend......I hope that gives you a new tool or some ideas to work with?
As stated in the International Standard Version (Bible) "the workmanship of each person will become evident, for the day of judgment will show what it is, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's action."
The goal of course is the "earned secure attachment" or the third category ie" 3) secure attachment. This is what you want and it's the proof of your work....that is...the part you can do and how well you use this tool. The first thing you need in all consideration is the trust. In this case....YOU need to give it before you can get it. As difficult as this may be for you....this is the test of faith and courage you need to have on your end of the deal.
J
Thank you for this information and most of all for your care....
Submitted by c ur self on
I read over your post a couple of times, and the information relates well to what I've experienced in my own life ( childhood memories of my mother crying while my Dad beat her, and me and my brother's 3,5,8 huddled up crying in our bunk beds) as well as my wife's and other family members...To grasp the concepts as you have stated them it helps me to think of human's as being animals and having three basic instincts, territorial, procreative, and survival. (these of course or outside our ability to think about our thinking, which makes us human).
I want lengthen my reply by going into any more detail about the battle for acceptance and approval that I think you have battled also, based your own background.. And which is the case for so many of us who were molded more by Dysfunction than Love and Healthy Admonition...I will just say in my experience of life the details of your post, does aptly describe the dynamic of what happens to an immature mind when this is the case....
So again, (to borrow a backward quote from a friend) " I believe you have hit the nail with your head"....
One thing I would like to point about the tools you say will help heal and or ease the effects of our struggles. They most all, if not all are principles related to the teachings of Jesus.
I want go on, I've gotten my hand spanked for evangelizing on the forum, and I want to respect everyone's rights to deal with life as they think is wise...
Appreciate you J....
C
Yep....It's Really Heady Stuff C
Submitted by kellyj on
I just wanted to point out something that I really was relating not just to you but in corollary between religion and science. In this case...the science of psychology. If you take a broader look at what Jesus said....and apply it across the board to any other religious teachings.....they all seem to have a common thread and say many things in different ways to mean the very same thing. I was intentionally referencing the bible to further make the same point......in all cases....it's saying the exact same thing.
When science and religion come to the same conclusions.....that's when you can start really believing and have some proof to back it up. The proof ? ..." Is in the Tasting (or Taste) of the Pudding." That's actually the corrected way this saying actually started out but not the common version we know it to say. That does change it subtly but it makes it even more poignant.
I also didn't really go on to say this but....the empathy, compassion and forgiveness part you need to use the tool? That's the part where you heal yourself as well. It's all good as long as we remember to do it! I have to remind myself of this every day and many time I forget more often than not. A work in progress. lol
J
I agree, c
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
you wrote
The one question I have to ask myself is; How do my priorities, habits, likes and dislikes, fears etc...relate to having an healthy attachment of two being one....Help? Hinder?
If both parties can be truthful with in their own hearts and communicate those feelings then this honesty can help us avoid all the work and pain that occurs after the fact...Self-awareness can help us avoid some of the mystery and much of the pain some times...
...I'm going to try to write this without some of the religious shorthand vocabulary that I suspect you and I share
In a dynamic that harms what a couple share, or harms one or the other, someone has to be the one to find in him/herself a way to change, if there is true commitment to better (not just lip service about better)
It never works to expect or to try to cajole or force the other partner to start the dynamic change
So one has to look at oneself better and more deeply, to find in oneself by one's own values and assessment what needs to change, whether the other partner changes or not
that requires looking, really hunting, in a way that I had not. Given that people are not gods, they cannot see themselves in new ways well. Like J says, their old life may have taught them fear. Or they could have grown up having been sold a bill of goods about who they are, and they bought it, it was the best bill of goods out there at the time. Or...many things. You and I might have a discussion about the continuing impact on ourselves of sin, how that can weigh down and clog ability to see oneself truthfully. For all kinds of reasons, its difficult to do what you say, see oneself truthfully and in a new way
and then you doubled the issue, and I agree with you, it takes two telling the truth to each other, as best they know truth at the time, accepting that the other person is telling the truth because without that there will never be solid ground on which new trust can rest, and then continuing the work, which given fears, denial, old habits and present wounds is hard, of looking oneself straight in the eye. I'm writing why I agree with you 100%
speaking only for myself, when I was in a spell of stocktaking about myself, I thought going in, that I was a pretty good truthteller, but once I got down into it I discovered that truth telling on this earth has something like, let's say hypothetically 15 levels, and I only had accomplished telling the truth (not appearing like I was, that's another issue) down to about level 6 or 7. Or 5. Its very easy to do the top levels of truthtellin, for example, getting the habit of not lying when answering questions. Again speaking only of myself, I discovered that there were whole further levels of seeing in truth, acting in truth and living in truth. I was still bush league.
To end with something that I think we agree on...no one can make this journey toward truth by herself. If outside help needed isnt coming from the couple, it has to come from somewhere beyond the couple
Now
Your in my head or I should say heart:) NorN...
Submitted by c ur self on
I've been working on self-awareness for quiet some time now, and because of being human my innate desire to feel good about my own goodness, makes it very difficult to come face to face with myself and my motives...
You speak so wisely. You are right, it's about change, it's about a Love that can take us past the circumstances without losing our hope and thankful spirit...
As a way of showing agreement with your last sentence, I will use 4 words that I hear in my spirit each time I feel I've won a victory..." It's not of yourself"
Thanks for your reply, it's full of truth...
C
Thank You So Much NowOrNever
Submitted by kellyj on
This means a lot to me. The parts that I wrote have actually taken me many years to figure out and come to the place where I am now. It is my personal unprofessional look at myself and watching these things and just observing myself over time and paying note to things that happen and connecting them to things outside myself ie: people I'm with, the environment (hot, cold, humid), how I am at work, how I am at home, how I am when I'm on vacation or doing fun things and how I am when things are not going well in my life like you mentioned about being sick or tired (enough sleep vs no enough sleep etc..) That even includes physically exhausted (doing exercise or strenuous activities) where you are sore or feel physical pain and how you respond to them as well.
As my T first introduced these things to me and used some good analogies that go along with what I just said. As he put it (para-phrasing here) " if you ( your mood and mental state ) changes along with these things too much or in a detrimental way and are determined by these outside forces then you're like a Bull with a ring in your nose and these things have control of you and are leading you around and pulling you this way and that."
When that happens....you are not in control and you have no power to change it or keep it from happening. And when you have no power or control of yourself....you start trying to control your environment and the people around you because you believe they're the cause for how you feel. Take that one up with the Dali Lama...he might have a thing or too to say about that? lol If you are in control of yourself and you have power over your mind and body...your spirit and how you feel is in your control and less effected by anyone or anything in your environment. When that happens...you become emotionally "stable" or "level" and the fear that comes with being out of control is not longer there. Without the fear being the thing that dictates how you feel, how much emotional pain you experience and the influences this has on your behavior.....you are now in control of yourself and everything then becomes a choice.
With that fear and emotional pain dictating you.....you are led to behaviors not from choice but from being a victim of your own emotions and your physical state of mind and body (the thing with it's finger in the ring in the bulls nose) which leads you to being a victim to your outside world and other people as well.....randomly moving around and living your life being lead not by choice.... but by being out of control yourself ie: your conscious thoughts, your body and your behaviors that follow suit.
You may think your conscious thoughts are in control but their not. You're living "unconscious" and disconnected when you don't have any power to control of how you feel...that is ....how you experience things. What follows next are your emotions but by that time.....they're leading you too at the end of the chain. No control and no power means living in pain and fear all the time. It's a primitive rudimentary existence and you are not very evolved..... but we all start this way and move forward from there.
At the risk of sounding judgmental and condescending it really is not that far from the truth. What makes this not judgmental? Everyone is like this...it is part of being human. It's the one thing that connects all of us and it's the pathway to connecting to others (and the outside world)
The only difference is the knowledge you have. Knowledge is power....who ever said that wasn't kidding because it's absolutely true. It's not about being smart and gifted mentally....it's just about learning and continuing to learn. It's a relative thing and it's relative to each person on an individual basis. That may be different from one person to the next.....but the experience is exactly the same and how we all feel when we arrive at any given stage in the process of living.
One's you stop learning....you stop growing and evolving and stay right where you are until you learn something new. It does seem to work this way. But then you need to apply it to your experiences and assimilate it into action. This is a deliberate thing. Deliberateness is the intervention of the mind. All things are relative to one another but deliberateness is the thing that changes this relationship. The more knowledge you have...the more power and control you have over yourself and the more deliberate and intentional you are in your actions and deeds. If you are living UN-intentionally....there is no deliberateness, no control or power and you are disconnected from your body and your mind. When that happens....you are living unconscious and your unconscious mind is in control.
At that point....life is a train wreck and just one big accident! Trying to control your outside world and your environment is an illusion. It's like tying to sweep the ocean back into the sea with a broom. How ridiculous is that! All you can do is control yourself and that's all you can do. Any illusions outside of that is... well....crazy!
Those were all my words by the way aside from the part about the bull with a ring in it's nose. But the concepts and these discoveries are not mine at all. I knew nothing about this until I went to therapy and learned that you do have control of your moods, your body and your emotions and using your conscious thoughts to get there.
If your only see yourself and others in a negative light....then you will be negative. Be the ball as they say (a sports term) If you see things positively.....it will effect everything else... it's just that simple. Complicated but not complicated at all.
As my T described attachment theory....he said.. "the people who figured this stuff out are really, really smart people and know their shit." He believes them based on his own knowledge and experience and I in turn believed him. When you have the feeling that something is true.....you believe it. If you don't believe it's true....then you don't believe. What you need to get there is trust and faith but you need to have that before you can believe anything if you think about it?
Which is what I believed as well. And I trusted him enough to go see for myself by noticing and paying attention to these things with the knowledge he passed on to me. Eventually....I found them to be true as well. And now I believe it too and don't need to trust my T's words anymore because I became aware of these things myself and now know it's true. Now it's what I believe.
It came from my own experience with it and found that it is exactly right. I don't question it for minute. That's why I can say that my behaviors are not caused by ADHD. My behaviors and actions are the source from how I see things and my conscious thoughts. I have complete control of them at all times (or the potential even if I'm not following this at times which I can quickly lose sight of when things go wrong and start going backwards instead of forwards in my thinking.)
This was also confirmed again by Melissa in the course I'm taking of hers when she explained how memories work. They are somewhat relative as well and based on many things and also changes along with us as we change as well.( to say...in part...dynamic ..which is to say....relative) Specifically....how we feel now compared how we felt back then. (in the past) This is a real brain teaser when you really start to think about it and pay attention to it. Your feelings influence your memories in other words. Even more control than you think? Or should I say....IF you think?
Just a quick example of something that I realized when I was really thinking about this and paying attention to my memories of how I felt and why in my past. When I was younger and in a really bad state of mind.....vacations seemed extremely intense and I felt wonderful and didn't want to go home ( that is...only to return to how I felt when I left). What I realized is that this was only due to the contrast that I was experiencing and just feeling this difference on an unconscious level. I lived for vacations and doing fun things since that was the only time I felt good and believed it was the vacation that was making me feel this way.(things outside of myself) In respect to this...either, unhappy..or happy. I felt happy on vacation but not any other time. One or two weeks of being happy pretty much sucks if you ask me?
Now later when I was doing the same thing again but in a better state of mind (as I am trying to be now)..that is "happy and thankful" and more positive......vacations almost seemed disappointing to me comparing them to what I remember? So now....did the same vacation stop making me happy? Something is wrong here? This isn't right? Why isn't it working? I realized that nothing was wrong and this is the way it's suppose to be.....what was wrong was being unconscious and not having any power or control and the vacation was only a temporary fix instead of fixing it from within. On vacation back then....was the only time I could do whatever I wanted to.
What's wrong with this word picture? I think that's the indication that I was being a victim of myself without any control or choice on a daily basis....and then later... living with choice most of the time...and then just going somewhere else to live with that same choice which didn't give me the same feeling anymore. That's a good sign not a bad one!! But yet.....it feels a little funny at first until you come to these conclusions yourself.
What that really indicated to me more than anything....is that I wasn't changing and going up and down in my moods or state of mind and staying the same or more level more often than not. Staying level and unchanging in that regard is a healthy thing because it comes from a deliberate choice and you are no longer being dictated by the outside world ( and the people in it) which isn't as exciting as before (without the extreme highs...but also the extreme lows...the contrast)....but it feels a lot better than only being happy for two weeks out of the year.
What was it that Melissa (or her husband ?) described ADHD as being like? Consistently.....inconsistent. I can tell you straight up....when you're not consistent ( not even looking at how this affects other people).....it doesn't feel good and you're not as happy as when you are. Again...this is not an ADHD thing...this is true for everyone....that is....if you don't have ADHD....you'd be this way too and you do know what this is like? This you can change by learning and with knowledge then apply those things with experience. Medication helps but it only gives you a helping hand...it can't do anything about what I am describing on it's own.
When you do that...you come to learn for yourself that this is true and then you believe it. Once that happens....there is no going backwards. You can't un-ring the bell as they say.
I get the funny feeling that in context to what you said about your past experiences in your life that they were not good at all. But I also get from your response that you have come to learn a lot of these things for yourself in the same way I have. I can tell by how you word things.
No un-ringing that bell right? Good for you! And thank you for taking such an interest in what I said. As you said it....this is a BIG topic! It is a very personal journey that is very difficult to describe which is why this meant so much to me because it is something that runs very deep and is very meaningful in the effort, pain and time it took me to get here. Thanks again:)
J
You're welcome : )
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
You're welcome : )
I'm glad to think about what you write.
J, a couple titles
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Chances are pretty good, given the time and energy you put into your growth, that you've run across them, but if not
Terrence Real, I Don't Want to Talk About It. Overcoming the Roots of Male Depression
Alice Miller, For Your Own Good. Hidden Cruelty in Childrearing and the Roots of Violence
Alice Miller's Drama of the Gifted Child was a godsend, when I read it in my late 20s, starting the journey. I've read Real's book by a man, about men and to men, several times. I'm reading For Your Own Good at present. You remind me of it by bringing up attachment theory. Miller poured decades of therapy, and a whole book into communicating about one kind of attachment, that unless it is decommissioned, replicates itself in further relations. To me the gold (it's terrible gold but gold) is in her details.
Thanks NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I'll look them up....sounds fascinating!
Thanks again,
J
I want to stay calm when disrespected, but, how?
Submitted by c ur self on
Even though I know it's coming at some point, (her attachment seems to be a mix of all of them, it's disorganized to say the least, so when I react to the negativity of her words and countenance change by saying, WHOA!...But whoa never comes, because when the switch is flipped she is at that point of no return ( my very first response is critical, usually it's defensive and wrong, instead of quiet, understanding and stable I'm working on it, SO hard for me, my unhealthy attachment) and she is so locked in she can't hear anything but her own mind and voice seemingly. And unless I walk away I am going to be subjected to a barrage...So what does that say about me? That I can't walk away?? So, in my attempt to force whoa, even more unhealthy stuff happens and their goes my countenance and more damage occurs....Good Grief Charlie Brown!!!!
In doing more reading on the different attachment styles as it relates to our childhood and the things that molded us...I realized even more the need to be able to communicate face to face in complete honesty to even begin to find our way to a healthy attachment...(with out my faith to believe what is impossible with man, is only a quick work for my Father, I would have walked away long ago, for both our sakes) It is so hard to condemn myself for poor response's when I'm being attacked out of the blue...Attacked meaning, being thrown from a very comfortable position to a very uncomfortable position by a single unexpected event where my wife's behavior or words turn to into an attempt to control or demand me to give up my rights to live as an Individual, husband etc?? (anyone mastered this? Anyone have a healthy answer? ) I struggle to stay calm when the day has been peaceful, loving and honorable and out of no where I'm cornered, and asked to die?? I try to be aware, and be positive, but, could any man do this?? Is there a man out there who could change places with me and handle these emasculating assaults?? You would be my Hero!!!
C
The Option Play C
Submitted by kellyj on
Thinking in terms of the option play in football C...you run right and the play is blocked....you run left and the path is blocked as well.....do you stop and let the other team tackle you....no.....you have a third alternative or choice by executing the option usually the pass.
What you said here....And unless I walk away I am going to be subjected to a barrage...So what does that say about me? That I can't walk away?? So, in my attempt to force whoa, even more unhealthy stuff happens and their goes my countenance and more damage occurs....Good Grief Charlie Brown!!!!
Here...you have only two options as you said it....stay and take it....or walk away. Is there something in between or third option? How about the pass play? Thinking here in term of disengaging but not walking away. Why do you need to leave or walk away? But why do you have to take it. The pass play in this case is to say...:" Sorry.....pass here"...and disengage but not walk away.
There is power in not moving (retreating) and holding your ground even if you are not advancing or moving forward. If a person is trying to GET you to react....don't react....but don't change your direction either. Keep doing whatever you were doing before as if it never happened and don't acknowledge with a response except to say..."I'm pleading the fifth and acquiesce as my only response to you." And don't walk anyway and stay right where you are. It is an acknowledgement and yet....not dismissive either.
Win/lose......lose/win.....win/win....lose/lose......option play( pass or do nothing) You always have one of these five options to choose from. If no compromise is available....pass option play. What's the worst thing that will happen here?
J
thanks J...
Submitted by c ur self on
Love this analogy J, so full of truth!
One partner's attachment style, the other's & the bond between
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
In doing more reading on the different attachment styles as it relates to our childhood and the things that molded us...I realized even more the need to be able to communicate face to face in complete honesty to even begin to find our way to a healthy attachment...(with out my faith to believe what is impossible with man, is only a quick work for my Father, I would have walked away long ago, for both our sakes) It is so hard to condemn myself for poor response's when I'm being attacked out of the blue...Attacked meaning, being thrown from a very comfortable position to a very uncomfortable position by a single unexpected event where my wife's behavior or words turn to into an attempt to control or demand me to give up my rights to live as an Individual, husband etc?? (anyone mastered this? Anyone have a healthy answer? ) I struggle to stay calm when the day has been peaceful, loving and honorable and out of no where I'm cornered, and asked to die??
C, I read what you wrote last night. You're in my prayers. So is your wife. What hard times for you. I'm not writing as someone who as mastered anything. Rereading you this morning, I wondered if you and I both add something to attachment theory, or who knows, perhaps sometimes substitute something for it. Just wondering. That there's my attachment style. Second, my partner's attachment style And third, the bond itself. I do think this way. Speaking only for myself I do ponder how our two histories, which are different; and our two attachment styles relate to the bond iteself. Once as J has said in a post that the bell of understanding is rung, one can't unring the bell, understanding has changed my capabilities, but also my obligations. So when the bell of understanding rings that no, I can't make my partner do anything, I can accept that he is coming at things from his history and with his attachment style, and I'm coming at it with my history and my attachment style. So far, so good. But we both plug into the bond, and so there's a third living thing...and in your case and mine a fourth, Who holds us all under His wing, but doesn't do our responsibilities, we do, so that gets us back to two attachment styles and the bond.
I recently labeled the bond the common good, somethng that I think actually exists, in better or worse, undeveloped or developed, tended or abandoned shape. Or harmed or protected. For the longest time I had a Good Girl belief that if I just worked and worked and worked and tried, I could fix a bond, or fix another person. That was hallucinatory thinking...at least as I was doing the trying to fix in my life. It's an old saw that the only person you really can have an effect on re. saving is saving yourself, and even then you need help. But the part of my hallucination that if I tried and tried and tried and tried, I could fix a relation. A marriage counselor once told me that that was not always true. It takes two, trying, plus outside help, but here's what really set me back thinking about it for the first time in my life (and I was middle aged), that either one of the couple can do things to the bond...to the relationship...that permanently damage it, and there's not going to be overcoming it ever through good will, and try-try-try. That therapist had uncovered a remaining piece of my codependency, as far as I can tell....that if I tried tried tried, my relationship could be healed. Here's another variation on it: that if I loved well enough and hard enough, and long enough that love would conquer. Can you hear my hallucination about power in these things I was doing. But it really caught me up short that a relation--that's the bond-- it's the attachment style dynamic, but I think has more than attachment style dynamic in it...by far...could sustain damage so bad that the two partners can't undo it. For you and me, that means it's entirely God's business, if healing is going to happen. One or the other, or both have damaged the bond beyond repair. I am not saying that you, or I, or anyone on this board has gotten to this state. I don't read that in your last post. What I'm wanting to bring up here is that to this marriage counselor, yes there IS something that isn't just attachment style dynamics going on, though attachment style dynamics are right in there, all the time.
To me, mutual trust, if it exists, is in the bond, so is the fruit of sharing, if sharing happens. I think the bond talk is all over parts of the New Testament.
As I,ve read about it so far, attachment theory looks at that central area, that is not my attachment style, and not my partners, and valuably to me, considers the dynamic produced by two habitual attachment styles. It doesnt get into other parts of the bond. Learning about it has been very helpful to me, partly because I dont ever think I can see inside my partner's head. What he presents me is not his thoughts. What he presents me are words about his thoughts, much more rarely about his feelings, and his actions. Attachment style theory helps me deal with the interaction of our words and actions, and to sort out that he truly is not me, and can only do his history, attachment style, present choices and present actions and words.
. C youve given me much spiritual support over the weeks, in advising acceptance and non participation, in what looks to be unhealthy. That's good turn the other cheek.
But this bond itself, this relationship itself, what to do about the bond? The Bible has some powerful, to me, talk about the common good or bond. It calls it the body of Christ and it means by that something actually existing. It's an inner Christian thing that the Bible is not just speaking symbolically when body of Christ discussion is going on. The apostle Paul and Jesus in the Gospels make this extremely explicit: the bond exists, within Christian mindset and relating It's not hypothetical talk. You know all those passages well, all those on marriage, community relations, leadership, parent-child relations and relations with people who are not Christian. That bond talk is in them all.
What to do, when after long effort to contribute peaceably, and in a peaceable moment, one is used like a punching bag. What is the healthy thing? How does one tend the bond? What does one do if one thinks one's partner is harming the bond, or abandoning it? C, I dont have this kind of situation licked. Here's a question that attachment theory isn't designed to address: we believe a bond in good or bad shape exists, where does our labor for it hit an acceptable limit, in which one can say, I've done my max, thats all I can do, let go and let God? And what do I do if my partner seems to be using our bond to worsen things? I don't have an answer to that, but it's to me a very real, lived question: how much is all that I can do, and be healthy? Just because my relationship partner is avoiding, using the bond to his/her own ends, or harming it, that doesn't let me off the hook of living in bond. I don't have an answer to the question that I'm asking, I'm just saying that it's a serious matter to me, because things like attachment theory offer me only some ways of dealing with the bond.
I was reading this morning an old thread about raspberries that came back up. She bought food for them several days before, he found some raspberries in the fridge that he thought were going off, he reamed her out for buying things that werent eaten, he told her it was her fault because she hadnt eaten them, and it went south from there. A poster in the thread remarked that if they had this very argument over and over, and apparently they did, him picking on her for what she bought, telling her that she was wasting money buying food, making it a Federal Case, that it wasnt about raspberries, or what she bought, it was him USING the tried and true triggers in himself and her to use the two attachment styles and bond to do something that he wanted to get done...get his drama fix, discharge motion that he had built up elsewhere, maybe. I thought that was pretty astute. The raspberry buying wife like you was minding her business and had no cloud of anger at him in her when he started his picking on her and starting their old routine with its familiar parts. Using the bond to get something that he wanted. What to do?
Jenna recently wrote about conditioning. I had a surprisingly difficult time grieving and letting go something in my more distant past. To discover that I had been conditioned, by what turned out to be a particular kind of conditioning, intermittent positive conditioning, to hang on, hoping against all reason and all evidence, helped me enormously. There are several kinds of conditioning. Some of them are tougher to change, but all of them can be changed.
That was a new wrinkle. That what you and your partner, me and mine do with each other involves conditioning each other, among other things. I had been such a thinky person. Conditioning isnt rational. I think that's one of it's powers: it's not rational at all. Thinking people get as conditioned as non reflective people. And it works there in the bond area, in the interface between the two people. But all the talk, introspection and good will in the world won't put a dent in it. Because it's not moral. It's not rational. It's stimulus response conditioning. It's rather humbling to study, or it was for me...hey, I thought that if I could think hard enough and try hard enough, I could lick things.
There a book full of stories of conditioning called Dont Shoot the Dog by an animal trainer has stories in it of humans conditioning each other, of training animals, and some funny ones of animals conditioning their human trainers to get more treats. Like the elephant that figured out that if it stopped in a doorway and didnt budge, it got what it wanted, more treats, because nobody short of getting a forklift can move an elephant out of a doorway against its will. It soon taught the trainers to up the treat ration, if they wanted to use that door.
You probably know where I'm tracking with this by now. Doing one's own attachment style of peaceable behavior wont move that elephant. Nor will yelling at it. Nor will : ) telling it the truth. Or expecting it to tell the truth That elephant, setting off that repeated dynamic, to get what it wants, isnt into cooperation, it is into getting the treats that it wants in the quantity that it wants.
The conditioning book is only talking about what conditioning is...it doesn't aspire to more. It doesn't get into ideals or morality or psychological theory. Or the body of Christ. Just conditioned interchange, just the conditioning part of it. Its view is that if an animal and a human or two humans get into frequent dynamic that always as the same parts, one way that one might do J's third way is via changing the conditioning dynamic. There are different extinctions of conditioned behavior, depending on what kind of conditioning got the behavior locked into habit in the first place. That was the key I needed to learn, to basically condition myself differently, and I did need to do that to do an extinction, so that the grieving could end and the letting go could happen. You won't be surprised that non-reinforcement is key to extinction of conditioned behavior.
It's a tough thing to on the receiving end of the other person in the relation stirs something up because he or she needs a drama fix, or a fix of I-only-know-tht you're there-and-I-have-an impact-on-you-if-we're yelling. Or whatever it is, me proving to myself that I'm OK only if I can trigger you to do something that you yourself have said that you don't want to do. That would be me trying to hit your conditioned triggers to prove to myself that I was something. The possible varieties are endless. This has been one of the very most painful parts of my relation...we've worked on this, and it happens much less than it did for awhile. I just can't live in a situation in which I'm a punching bag but haven't done anything. I just can't. But I don't have anythng licked..... What a thing to be going on in the bond. We humans.
no big wisdom here, just thinking around. I was upset to read that you had that lashing out to you happen. How are you today?
Now
Thank you Now
Submitted by c ur self on
Now; you have that sincere, honest way of helping by expressing (speaking accountability to me) love and humility (which doesn't have it's roots in the earthly)....And I appreciate you so much...
To know to do good; and to know the answers, doesn't give us the wherewithal to make it happen:)...Just because I know not to engage doesn't mean I'm always ready for it....I should be:), but, my romantic heart, and sensitive nature can blind me from reality at times....
Everything is fine, I apologized for trying to save my life, and she got up yesterday kind of somber, and never mentioned it....There are many reasons why a husband or wife makes demands or seeks to control the other. The priority of the marriage relationship not being least among the group...But, like I've shared with many and found out in my own relationship, conflict doesn't have to surface if I refuse to engage by staying equipped....In my case that equipping is a spiritual mind....Because some times my humanist is not able to stand....
C
C..I Just Read What NON Said....
Submitted by kellyj on
....and I condensed it down to one thing when I finished reading it all through carefully....what is shouldn't be.....so what are you going to do about it?
C
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
(( ))
Love means you WANT to engage!
Submitted by jennalemone on
As you said above:
To know to do good; and to know the answers, doesn't give us the wherewithal to make it happen:)...Just because I know not to engage doesn't mean I'm always ready for it....I should be:), but, my romantic heart, and sensitive nature can blind me from reality at times....
Amen to that! I keep trying to engage and then pull back because it seems futile.
Having to try to NOT engage just does not feel right.
Jen u and I know, it will, it has, and always will take two...
Submitted by c ur self on
I know Jen, in our minds and hearts we are screaming it doesn't have to be this way!!! It can be salvaged with Love & understanding!!! With accountability and simply accepting responsibility for our own existence and commitments....
But Jen what is our reward for all the years of engaging with this message of hope? My goal is for Christ to so live in me (the one who supplies all good things) that I lead her out of darkness and into the light without a word...
It's time for me to hear!
C
Exactly Jenna Here, Here!
Submitted by kellyj on
You WANT to engage because you want to give from your heart. You don't want to have to or be forced into it by someone demanding it from you....this doesn't work.
It's the same problem looking at it from either side! But then comes why you don't......being hurt, feeling shame and feeling vulnerable again in fear of it happening.....but the fear is really that you won't be able to face that pain again not that it won't happen again. You can always count on people disappointingly you. It's ridiculous to think that they won't ever do that again?
So then....you don't do it and you stop. You stop giving and withhold by disengaging but not returning again as you were before you started. That's a form of self betrayal and not the other persons fault if you're the one who is doing this. People are going to hurt you even if it's not intentional. That's not an excuse for them....but now what excuse to you have not to continue being the person you know you are but yet.....you're not doing it? Only you in that case I'm afraid.
Here's a really good video I discovered from a TEDX Talks speaker on Youtube discussing this very thing....shame and vulnerability and why we do this. I think the speaker (Brene Brown) has a really good speech about this in a very enlightening and it's brutally honest. It made me stop and think about a lot of things that I had not considered before especially from a female perspective.
https://youtu.be/psN1DORYYV0
J
Yeah not giving up!
Submitted by jennalemone on
Brene Brown, Yes, my favorite!. As a matter of fact, when I think of it, my favorite people and those who seem to impress me are those who walk in vulnerable circumstances with risks of failure again and again but who are indomitable in their conviction on their journey. They don't get pushed down after failures but keep to their destiny. A test of character for sure.
As C said or my paraphrasement of it," I know what to do but I don't have the heart and dogged energy to do it all the time." I sometimes feel entitled to some payback, reward or outside motivation/inspiration/strength. Yes, I have struggled to be that person who, in the face of failure, keeps on keeping on. I fail miserably and complain and throw sorrowful pity-parties for myself.
Think how many people are in the same place with the many (far worse )struggles in the history of humanity! For us all and whatever is our burden, it is the epitome of succsesful living to find strength and keep going in difficult times. Don't give up! Keep trying to know who you want to be and don't be discouraged. Everyone gets to walk through some shame, failure, disappointment and death of dreams and loved ones. Blah, blah blah. But it is true. We all have our burdens to bear and it is the best to make the best of it and keep going. Keep being vulnerable even if it hurts. Yea faith!
"Holy Cow...That WAS some Fucked Up Shit!!"
Submitted by kellyj on
NowOrNever,
You might remember this from the post Melissa included on Narcissism and ADHD. And yes...I am intentionally trying to be provocative to get your attention! (the point of my title.;) lol I don't know exactly why....but I think I do?
That is....I think I figured out a lot of things all at once and one of them has to do with my working memory of the past.Specifically? My ruminating thoughts. These no longer plague me anymore like they use to. In fact....what I know now for sure is my ruminations are exactly where I need to look for answers now since they are all connected to my past in some ways and I just had an epiphany that I had to share.
Things you've written here brought me back to it including the post on Narcissism by Melissa. I wrote things.....you wrote things....and they stuck in my memory....just spinning in there until I could connect them to something which I just did. I use to think of those ruminations as a curse of unresolved painful memories.....which is exactly what those memories were....and what those ruminations were all about. That much wasn't too hard to figure out! lol
But what you were saying here about "the bond" or attachment....goes way deeper and I think I hit pay dirt. I just wanted to give you the heads up to keep an eye out for my next posts.
Like I said to C....I think this is going to get weird....not for me!....but possibly for you guys. I haven't had a need to share an really important story here since it's a very personal one not many are going to relate with. Maybe? Thinking NOT for most? But because it's so personal...and because the circumstance are not what I would call....highly creditable? lol I think many my not believe it or give it much credence. It's not one I can tap dance around very well without coming right out and telling a real thing that happened to me and how it happened? Whether anyone believe me or not....won't take anything away from me. That is always my fear but I thinking it might be safe to share it with those who might be able to relate it to the very things you said here in this comment. At the very least...I'll be able to fill in the blanks better after I tell the story and go from there. You're going to need an open mind I'm warning you however...but it's really no skin off my nose either way. This is only for you or anyone else who might find it interesting to give you some food for thought. Something tells me you will be amenable....that intuition again? I think so. It certainly isn't from the discussion on Christianity here since...it kind of goes counter to that in many ways.lol
At the very least....it's got some humor in it and that never hurts:) lol
Look for "A Long Strange Trip"....I just picked that as the title and I think it is appropriate! You'll see why:)
We'll see?
J
H.C.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hi, J
I will read. I'm in a period offline for the most part...things going on in offline life, so expect a lag in my response but trust that I'll read you with attention to your detail and will respond With time lags, but I'll be around.
About that going back to the past, in one's memory and interior?
You bet.
I think finding as best one can, at that moment in your life, the most real (real to you and also fitting the exterior to you facts of what was being done to you or going on around you) story of what happened back there is one of the big hero's journeys into the wilderness.
You know the archetype: the hero leaves his/her known world, goes to a place that is not the known world, goes out of the frameworks of conventional actoin and prior knowledge, explores out there in the wilderness...and finds....and returns with what the hero found. And the hero comes back to the known world changed, for having gone out to find.
Some things it took me until my late middle age to go back to see, more truly, unfettered by my for-the-meantime story I had been using to keep myself a float, to see more truly what had happened to me and who I was back then, in the middle of it all.
Fare forward, traveler.
Words are power. Write it out. I'll not be able to keep tempo with your drive toward in posting this time, but trust me, I'll be around.
You go.
The Bond....NowOrNever
Submitted by kellyj on
This was the most compelling thing you said to C back when you originally made the comment here in this thread that I had to come back to. This is not a physical "bond" if you will. You as a person....only have one place that "bond" can take place.....inside your own head? Right?
It can't be any other place? It is a "virtual interface" and "the point of contact" with another person. This is the connection point and the place where the "bond" takes place. It has too. There is no other place this can exist in the physical (our bodies and brains....as just the pieces of meat on a hook that they are lol )
As I see it....it can be a window, a wall, or a battle field....but it's the actual place (in the physical)...where this all happens inside your head. Including any damage done to you as a child. This is Time and Space Einstein stuff. Like a convergent point to the universe...and the lock combination to it. The tumblers of the lock are the mind, body and spirit or said differently....the father..son...and holy ghost. If you will? Same difference...same tumblers. When they line up....( or connect up )....Past, present and future line up at the same "time" and "you" become all "ONE". And that's when the window opens and you pass through the wall and connect to everyone and everything.
If acceptance is the key to unlock the tumblers....this is the doorway or window? If you will?
When I first read what you were saying.....I new exactly what you meant. And how you related it to religion.....trying harder and harder....trying to fix, fix, fix.....or trying to save, save, save.....your relationship or to control another person this way or effect any change that way.
And somehow....I came to this on my own as well or at least....new it was true without being able to tell you why in a real world explanation.
I just thought you might like to hear my own personal real world explanation of how I got there. And to hear that I think you are absolutely right. In fact....with a certain amount of certainty....I actually know that you are? Yet I couldn't tell you why before? I made my own fascinating discovery that might show you how right you are?
When ever you get to it. That was the only reason. That intuition thing again? Which brought me back here because what you said hit that nerve and stayed there ....and ruminated a bit until it spit out the answer I was looking for so I could respond to what that nerve was telling me?
Like you said....we human beans are a piece of work. And still no one really knows where we came from? ( Some might argue that? For me?....I don't know! lol )
FYI: New discovery in South Africa.....bones of the nearest genus/species of Home- Erectus which is the next step before Homo -Sapiens?( us) .... 3.7 million years old..(They found them in a box in some archive that they found previously but someone mistook the bones for a monkey or an ape of some kind? oops!)
If they ever find the genetic connection which I'm sure they will. I'll be all ears.
As I keep trying to say in so many words....it's all in your head:) More than anything....I just wanted to see what you thought about this in connection to what you said here. It'll take me a while to get there anyway....as I am:) lol
And I have some scientific data to support my claim....the new discovery I made. ( the 5-HT2A gene )
J
PS Almost forgot. Going back to the past (or past relationships)...the reason for doing that is not to try and fix or repair the bond you had with each person (can't do that)...it's to go back and re-examine the bond and make corrections to the story and your own motivation behind it....and replace it with what really was. By doing this...your changing the incorrect relationship that you had to the bond....to what it should have been in the first place. That's really all you can do but that's enough to fix it in your head and make it right. And you can't do this if your in denial. It's why I was so adamant in getting my wife out of hers. It will never work if you don't.
I'll say more later on that but what I used in the moment of our big fight before going though the wall.....was all her past relationships with her family and all the past stories of her intimate relationship to do it. That was the method I used and threw all my guns at once at her with.
Attachment Theory hard at work here. To repeat what I already said to C in this thread...."what is shouldn't be.....so what are you going to do about it?"
There you go:)
C.....I'll Be Your Huckleberry
Submitted by kellyj on
You asked...and you will receive (possibly? lol ) I'm gonna try a least. (anyone mastered this? Anyone have a healthy answer? )
This may get weird and it may not make a lot of sense at first....but I think I can help. As long as I kind figure out how to explain it? lol And then you having a little faith in that I (think) I know what I'm talking about. lol Actually I know....but the talking or communicating it here and my own self doubt if I can do this well is the only challenge I have? lol
I'm not sure where to start or how to begin....since I have ADHD and all...but that's never stopped before:)
Anyway...I just wanted to get your attention here....so you might hear what I have to say? Look for my following post where ever they end up. lol
J