A quick post and update on the progress of the other day when I finally broke through the ice with my wife. As I predicted, she would default back some and this was a good call.
Before....I could say nothing but "I don't know"...to stay in the middle. But I don;t know doesn't get you very far if they need something from you...or you need something from them. Since this is a dynamic condition between the two of us. I found I had to change strategies to meet the change as it comes.
For lack of a better word and probably the least flattering on all accounts.....this imbalance is parasitic...meaning...for the parasite...they need the host to feed off of the stay alive. In this case....I'm the host and my wife is the parasite. I have to say up front....I do not see my wife as a parasite....this only relates to the relationship we have and the dynamic. My wife is neither...just to be sure.
Thinking in those terms however....this is what I am observing. Without the host to feed off of...she is floundering and when that happens...she defaults back to what she knows which is that Gaslighting again in order to try and gain her power and control back. This time however....instead of "I don't know".....I hit her with..."I know what your doing and I don't like it." Bam. Dead in the water.
Today she comes home from work early with a headache and doesn't feel well she says. What I see is depression and a lack ability to process this and instead of floundering...she remains dead in the water and without the ability to communicate. She's attempted several times to end run me and suspiciously tried to corner me into a yes or no answer where neither one would apply. I refused to say yes or no.....and she walked away mumbling.
She sits with head down in the living room and won't speak but there is no fight. Just a while ago....she comes to me and says....."could I just tell you what's on my mind and have you listen"
It took four hours for her to finally say that instead of saying that up front. No problem...I'm all ears.
I just thought that putting this down (so I don't forget myself lol)...how this is playing out and it seems to be working. I am forcing her not to be a parasite in the relationship....and forcing her to figure it out for herself and avoiding conflict in doing so.
I'm not a mind reader you know:)
J
Success....As I Predicted
Submitted by kellyj on
As I suspected...my wife was worrying....it's what she does. She didn't know how she felt....she didn't know why she was worried....she was depressed...and she needed something to attach her worry too. This is all in her head. There was nothing to worry about after all. She just couldn't process it....even though...she said of front she didn't want my help. Period.
But as it turned out....she needed my help to process it because she couldn't do it by herself. (the parasitic relationship I was talking about). When ever my wife feels things and has no idea what she feels....she needs to attach it to an external object. In this case Me. What this does...is put me in the same state of confusion and worry she's in. That's co-dependence. It's her worry...not mine. Now I'm worried too...but she doesn't want to resolve. It appears....if she can't worry about something...she'll find something to worry about and want you to worry with her.
This is exactly what happened. If I'm Okay....and she's not....she needs me to join her. This is parasitic co-dependence as far as I can tell?
Being dead in the water....with no one to control....leaves her without any power. I am immune to this and I'm not worried. Her depression...is not my depression. End of story:)
Good call on my part. I think I'm getting the hang of this! lol
One more thing....as she said "I need to vent." That is not what I heard. What I heard was a completely confusing mix of statements that went in half a dozen directions of confusion, inability to process and completely misinterpreting her own emotions and a complete inability to actual say what was wrong...which left me not knowing what she really needed???????? And she couldn't that either? All she could say was "I need to vent."
I don't think so my dear one?
What she needed after all....was just some reassurance and some help processing her emotions since she was in tears when she started but I couldn't determine why? But even in that....she said she didn't want anything from me and only wanted to vent and explicitly said not to say anything and just listen?
Ambivalence....two simultaneous ideas, thoughts or emotions...that are incongruent with each other and break down in the ability to process it
No wonder she was in tears. I would be too it that were happening to me? Reassurance and validation. I'm beginning to see the light!
I hope that helps others to spot this themselves....it's the only reason to share this information:)
J
Is your wife in therapy, J?
Submitted by Delphine on
Is your wife in therapy, J? Sure sounds like she ought to be!
Maybe you could make that a condition of continuing the marriage? Hearing your stories about the relationship, I can't help wondering what you get out of it...
Delphine
I've Had to Be Patient... Dlephine
Submitted by kellyj on
What I get out of this?... The person I know my wife is and can clearly see in her ...and the qualities that I value most in being in a relationship with another human. And mostly.....the things that were missing in my past relationships that I was trying so hard to get from a person who didn't possess those qualities to begin with.
Most of my own personal problems that I have faced in my past....have been from my own inability to see what those were and from my own choices due to this inability. Having learned those lessons has giving me the ability to see what those qualities are and know exactly what I want.
The biggest challenge I've had to face with my wife.....is her own inability to see these things about herself....along with her unwillingness to look at the her own personal challenges that go right along with her best qualities as well. There's always two sides to that coin you know....but if you can't look at one....you aren't going to see the other?
In other words....I've come to understand this is what denial really is: The inability to have personal insight to yourself which leads to an inability to problem solve and resolve inner conflict. And if you can't do that for yourself....you won't be able to do that with another person either.
So far...this is what I know for sure.
My wife has been very resistant from going in to see our T alone and part of that is what I've been struggling to understand why? Since I've been seeing the same T for so long now...and he has my complete faith and trust from all that he has done for me in this area..she agreed to go see him together at first which has been a real education for me in more ways than one.
In his own way, he has pointed the way for me to understand the challenges of fighting against a person who is in denial like my wife and letting me know where to look myself for answers. This has been an education for me...not just for my wife....but it has explained the entirely of my past for myself and for the people I have been with. If there were any unresolved issues or ghosts in my own closet....this process alone has resolved any left over bits and pieces or the puzzle that were still missing. For myself alone, I need this as much as my wife does and even more if I think about it.
I've been through this process myself...for myself. But I was not resistant to it at all. I wanted to know and wanted to look inside myself for answers which kind of says by itself.....that I was not in the same kind of denial that I am facing with my wife.
And I realized from making this discovery....that this is not the first time in my life I have faced this same challenge but at the time....did not have the same awareness and the tools in my tool box that I have now. I have now come to understand....that this is an opportunity for me personally...in learning how to overcome my own personal challenges and grow as a person and move forward which includes any benefit my wife gets out of this or not? You can only work on yourself right?
Without going any further with this.....what I realized first off and recognized is: What worked for me, will not work for another person which also means have no idea what to do? Recognizing my own limitations and liabilities in this area was the first thing I had to overcome.
In many respects.....I'm sitting on the other side of the fence in respect to my wife. Nothing can replace that experience for me....than actually witnessing it take place in person with someone like my T there to point the way. He has said things and done things with my wife that he never did with me (or with my ex wife who we saw and how I connected with my T in the first place)....and at first this was really frustrating and confusing. It wasn't until I realized which side of the fence I was on....when I began to realize the role my T had put me in between the 3 of us....which was to be more of an observer (watching and listening to the two of them and the things my wife would say).... and then in some ways....become the Guinea Pig to be sacrificed at the alter so to speak in order for him to do so. lol
So in respect to this Delphine....my wife has been in therapy all along and I've been there in the room with her at the same time.
Before a person in denial is going to get anything out of therapy.....they have to decide for themselves that the problems and solutions to all the struggles in the relationship......are not all about the other person changing. It appears my wife is no different than any of the stories you read on this forum about the spouse who blames and point the finger away from themselves in avoidance of looking at their own personal issues. I've watched how my T has worked with us together on this problem to see how he is approaching it with the two of us in the room together at the same time. What he has cleverly done...is use me to point the finger at in the much the same way my wife does with me. The two of us together....have in essence.....recreated a real time dramatization of my wife and I.....with him taking the role of my wife in this case while my wife sits and watches this happen.
In essence....my wife gets to see my T dump on me and make me responsible for everything or least....in a way that shows her first hand...what it must be like to be me in between the two of us. A person who is co-dependent like my wife....gets easily confused between Love and sympathy. In fact....as I have come to see first hand....she thinks sympathy is Love and really doesn't know what Love is exactly? At least....it's all mixed up with sympathy and she cannot separate the two?
Tapping on the sympathy that my wife feels for me when my T dumps on me was instrumental in separating this out for her and showing me where this gigantic hole is in her own ability to understand the difference? This was extremely helpful in being able to see this myself and exactly how this really works. Once I understood this....I could use this to my advantage in the same way I watched my T do it with us together. I also learned a great deal about myself....by role playing this with him and playing this part in our little drama we re-enacted together.
What I have really learned and got out of this process more than anything....are the tools and how to use them for myself (by myself).....so I don't have to rely completely on my T or anyone else to do this for me. That is....when it's me who wants my wife to get out of her own denial more than anyone else.
The main discovery I've made about my wife's particular issue has to do with the inability to self-parent due to the absence of anything close to an example of a good one when she was growing up. Despite my own childhood issues with my own parents and their failings....I had two at the same time (a mother and a father) and had a completely different dynamic than my wife ever experienced by being mostly raised by her mother....and her mothers numerous marriages and boyfriends.
In paying due respect and consideration to my wife and her brother....they were merely baggage in tow for a rather primitive functioning woman who could only focused on herself and her needs and wants at all times....in the complete absents of care and attention and abuse that comes from a situation where your parent really doesn't give shit about you what so ever and is always in service of themselves at all times.
Stated differently.....a parent, who has the mind and the capacity level of ( I'm guessing in real terms?) a 10 or 12 year old? Maybe 13 or 14 if you were to push it?..... puts a person between around a 5th - 7th grader mentality along with the same emotional capacity (except with the skills of an adult in how to manipulate and control others ). Which only goes down hill from there when she would get upset....straight down to the terrible two's. lol
If this is your parent.....you need to learn how to parent yourself if this is the only example you had? And in respect to what I've come to learn and understand.....is I have to patient in my own process....in that my wife has some catching up to do herself. She's not anything like her mother in that respect....but only got so far with being parented by example back then.
When I think back in my own growing up experience.....I cannot think of a worse age if I were to pick one for myself ...than when I was a 7th grader or around 12 or 13 years old. And sometimes now as I experience these challenges with my wife....I feel like I now know what it is like...to be a public school teacher to a 7th grade age girl sometimes! lol
This is pay-back for all the trouble I caused for any teachers I had in school back then!! lol
J
Twists of Fate in Terms of the Roles We Play
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm adding what I said to Delphine in my last comment to explain something that I see pretty clearly in terms of roles and attachment theroy.
Bith order is a really important aspect to this.
My wife was the oldest or first child. Because of the deficits of her mother as a parent...this put her the position of being one to her younger brother out necessity. Bottom line....she was forced to take on more responsibility than her own mother due to her mothers lacking.
Taking on others responsibility....then becomes a role you fall into an accept as normal behavior. If this ability exceeds your own ability and capacity....the results are what you get. A person without the ability cope and manage a situation that is beyond their ability and the lack of judgment to carry this out or succeed in doing so. A person like this...becomes overwhelmed by the responsibility in itself and looks for others to do this for them or take that away from them but they can't in fear "if I don't do it....it won't get done."
In terms of my wife and her childhood....this is all she knew. In essence....she was born and groomed to be an enabler both to her own brother...and her mother by default. This a dysfunctional comfortable role that my wife has a hard time getting herself out of in fact....she can't help it. Shes compelled.
And as I said about the reasoning ability or capacity of a 7th grader sometimes? This is true too. It's as far as she got. A 7th grader...lacks a good deal of judgment capacity to make good decisions however....my wife is not a 7th grader....she has the potential capacity to learn and the ability to do this. Yet...if she stays in that frame of mind that takes on all the responsibility to do everything for everyone else...she is not only sabotaging herself in learning anything new....but also sabotaging me in her ability to trust or let go of this role shes stuck in.
In she can only trust herself that little...she gives others only what she is capable of herself. Or said differently....she can only give others the credit due to them or any benefit of the doubt....by gaging herself in her ability to give only the same faith and trust she has in herself and her own abilities. And the only thing my wife knows and can see...is her own ability limitations and the self doubt she has because them which she places onto me and other people but specifically me.... which comes in the form of: distrust, lack of faith in my ability to do things, and a capacity to do anything beyond what she her self can do.
So in terms of a 7th graders abilities in these areas of reasoning and judgment.....you've got a person who is way over their heads and becomes overwhelmed easily...by seemingly simple everyday situations and the same problem solving capacity and a complete lack of good judgment sometimes. In fact....many times.
And since she can't let go of this role....she can't rely on anyone to help her or do this for her except....she desperately needs someone to do this for her since she recognizes her own limitations but can't admit or see them out of the fear that if she does.....her whole world will fall apart. This was true at one time in her life....but it isn't any more but she cannot see that. Part of her denial.
And since she can't see that....and can't see this problem in herself....that role she's in is in conflict all the time with me.
Responsibility.....lack of good judgment....and the fear of letting go and deferring herself to others out of fear and the anxiety she experiences any time she does. In this much....she is her own worse enemy not me.
No mater what she says of believes is true. I have abilities and the capacity that exceeds her in almost any area other than the area that I struggle with the most. House hold chore and being neat and tidy. This hits on this nerve so hard inside her...that she cannot rationally think her way through or out of the catastrophic fear she feels if she were to let go of this which is the very thing she cannot separate from her mind when she see's me and my ability to do things.
Unlike me....she has not faith or trust in herself and her own ability to process any of this well enough to be reasonable about it...or said differently: lack of reasoning and good judgment, ability to process and problem solve, lack of insight and a singular way of seeing things that says "if I don't do it...it won't get done".
Now...try and have that conversation with a 7th grader? This might give you a better understanding of the role that puts me into by default whether I want that role or not? Not being able to see which role I needed to take on...was the first obstacle I had to overcome myself.
Now that I can see it....it still doesn't give me the ability to know how to do it since....
I was the youngest or last child in the brood. I didn't have to be responsible for anyone but myself ever. And with that.....I did a pretty good job of learning most of what I needed to know by the time I was on my own and could do carry out most everything I needed to do pretty well except for the things directly tied to my ADHD.
For me....capabilities in these limited areas was the only thing standing in my way not capacity or not what I hadn't learned how to do already. My biggest challenge to date....was having to take responsibility on..... FOR someone else who could not do this for themselves already.
So if stand back and look at out situation.....the roles we know go counter to the ones we've found ourself in.
The wierd twist of fate her is.....I need to be more of a parent to my wife in many ways....and she refuses to allow it.....compounded by the fact....that is in this role herself....and doesn't want to be there but can't stop or won't let go of it out of the fear and anxiety this creates in her. Her own inability in lack of insight and good judgment...is the very thing standing in the way yet....as she sees me do things and how I do them....they do not make any sense to her based on her own poor judgment and lack of problem solving abilities that she applies to me when she doesn't understand WHAT she is seeing?
In her subconscious mind....she's the Alpha dog but is very insecure in this role. She has to do a lot of resource guarding and fending off any perceived encroachment to her power and therefore....spends more time resource guarding than she does anything else.
In dog training terms.....she's an insecure Alpha dog....who needs to be brought down a notch or two in line with the rest of the pack. In this case...Me! lol
The problem is....I'm not an Alpha dog....I'm a confidnet lone wolf Alpha dog who is not good as a pack animal...but has found myself in this role now where I have had to a way to teach the lower ranking insecure Alpha dog how to be more like me so they can learn that they can't try and control everything all the time but especially me the lone wolf Alpha dog which hit directly against each other as far as trying to determine the ranking of the pack....but....do it without letting her know this is what you are doing since that would threaten her pack status and the basis of her false sense of rank and status (self worth and self esteem) which she really has neither earned or learned how to do which clearly shows everytime that poor judgement and inability problem solve comes out all over the place. This is the part....that I can clearly see! lol
Yet...she refuses to defer to me out of this feeling this loss to her own personal status and self esteem and the resulting anxiety, fear and depression Which ain't my probelm! lol This is where all her competativeness comes from where I'm going...."Hey!! This isn't a competition!!!" lol
And yet if she tries.....it's not even fair on part to take part in or enter the ring with her. All I do is reconfirm how poorly she does in the ring with me each time I beat her......handely!!! lol The answer....don't step inside the ring which is what she keeps trying to bait me in there with her....just to have me beat her again.
This is what I've learned from my T....in order to covertly teach my wife to do things for herself...without letting on that I'm actually doing that...... or in the role of doing this........... or trying to take her status of the Alpha role away from her which she really doesn't want anyway but is afraid to let go of it?
In other words....she wants and needs the status of the role she's taken on....but she hasn't earned it or really even learned how to do it even though she will fight you tooth and nail in saying that she has? Why?
Because this is the only role she knows out of the dysfunction on her mothers part since she had no choice which she was angry about and rebelled against even back then. In in some ways....she's still doing it and re-enacting the very thing she is in denial about and refused to see or look at.
Internally conflicted? I'll say so! lol If any of that made any sense? It does to me just so you know:)
J
Breakthrough Conversation With My Wife
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm going to cut to the chase her and leave out how we got here. As my wife was trying to explain herself after the fact about yesterdays episode...what came to light was exactly what I know already. My wife is moody. That was her word, when I told her that what's most difficult for me to predict saying "you are unpredicatable." From my point of view...my wife is extremely unpredictable which is what I was trying to explain to her and the reasons why I don't always succeed.
I googled "moodiness", and the first article that I read about this had one statement that explained it all....
"Moody people avoid facing and resolving their personal conflicts when others accept the blame and cater to them. They get stuck in narcissistic tendencies, codependence, immaturity, and controlling behavior toward others."
If there was a statement, that embodied everything that I face with my wife.....this is it. Key note here..."narcissistic tendencies". That doesn't mean that person is a narcissist. It means, they have a tendency...at times...to behave or act like one but not the rest of the time.
I'd say pretty safely....that a 7th grade girl....might also display a tendency to be a little narcissistic. The same as I was when I was a 7th grader and why I feel sorry for 7th grade public school teachers. Are you beginning to see something here? I am...at the very least?
If anyone is interested, here the link to this article. Without saying it (which I am saying it lol ) this is exactly what I'm reading in so many stories here on this forum and why I think it might help explain what you are seeing and the reasons why?
What I've said here many times already "show me a (child/person) with ADHD....and I'll show you ONE person with ADHD"
I am not moody. This is not my temperament as a normal course of affairs. I internalize things and don't show them on the outside. When I hit my overwhelm point of no return. I blow up without warning. I don't give many cues to work from externally.....but I am not volatile. It takes me a lot to get there, and I usually verbalize them way ahead of time.
My wife is just the opposite. She's moody, temperamental and externalizes everything. As she explained to me just now in her own words "I hit that overwhelm point without warning (internally)...so when that happens, I become grouchy and irritable, depressed and unable to cope and manage my emotions. In the moment, I don't know what's wrong and can't explain it to you."
And this is exactly what it looks like. She shows it all over the place and there is no way not to notice it. In these moments....are the times that ignites the fights we have and when she reverts to an irrational child who cannot hold their mud.
This is the 'walking on eggs shells."
This is the "Jeckel and Hyde"
This is the "Porcupine with their Quills Up.....Prickly and sharp and pointed."
This is where the offensive statements come from..."the accusations, the blaming, the pointing finger"
This where the "short fuse" and quick temper comes from"
This is "Mini Me all over the place"
This is the 7th grade girl, acting their age in an adult body who is in denial.
And I'm just the opposite than this in my normal temperament. Why" I'm not totally sure, but I'm speculating that part of it....was just how I was born. There was only one moody temperamental person in our house growing up....and that was my father. The rest of us....are not like this at all. Thinking....we took after my mother in temperament and that's the only way I can explain it?
This also explains to me, why I might be different than a lot of people who have ADHD.
Temperament and moodiness. Another thing to consider here outside of...or on top of ADHD. I just wanted to include it in this thread because this was a huge piece of the puzzle that I have now really come to understand better.
And as the article clearly says.....this is also part of denial as I interpret this. Having said that in light this puzzle piece...I've never been moody and I still have ADHD and I was in denial myself? To the point, I've been told this my entire life as one of my better qualities. Go figure? What's up with that? I've got some simmering to do on this one for sure? lol
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/charm-harm/201504/moodiness-is-key-...
J
That's good news, J.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
That's good news, J.
Just one thing. And I think its really a powerful piece. Your wife is able to describe herself and her triggers accurately, meaning what she said matches what you see her do. If you consider what it took for you to find your way with the help of your therapist and your own intelligence and determination, to seeing yourself as you are in the present with enough clarity to name yourself, ypur mentality and how it connects to your actions, give your wife a big round of applause for doing the same in the breakthrough conversation, for herself. Give her credit for doing what she did, truthfully, and accurately, in the moment there. Not everybody in the world has the guts to do that...they can busy themselves with scurrying around judging other people instead of naming themselves.
I'm not able at the moment to spend enough time online to read everything you've written in the last few days, which is a lot. I did read this last post of yours well. You two go, you've got a partner there. she showed up. And that takes courage. One step at a time, one moment at a time. Know that I'm holding you and your wife in mind, whether I'm online or not
Now
Great, J
Submitted by Delphine on
Thanks for sharing that breakthrough! Your post (including the article at Psychology Today) is helpful to me in understanding the dynamics of growing up with our father, who like yours, was very moody.
I used to say, "You never know how to take him." Yes, very unpredictable. Both of my parents left me with trust issues---"insecure attachment" as you have termed it. Very apropos.
Anyway, glad it seems your wife is getting more insight into her behavior. That's progress. Thumbs up!
Delphine
Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
As NON mentioned....I'm trying to pay attention to anytime she actually says what happening with her or uses words like "moody". That was really the breakthrough in itself. All I had to do was google "moody" and it fit like a glove....that is, her description of herself.
The most important points that the article made for me ...is exactly what I have trying to do.
-The Normal Response to a moody person from others...is to Cater to their "Moods" or try and get back in their good graces again.
-And if you keep doing that...it will only insight them to do it more. So don't do it! lol
This was the very thing we were discussing with NowOrNever in terms of passive resistance.
In effect....doing nothing doesn't work. You have to do something but that's the hardest part to figure out the right thing to do? If I don't Cater to her moods....she clearly does not like that!! And will let you know without too much hesitation. lol
And now I know why (even more ) that my T has kept repeating...."Don't make anything you do, contingent on her behavior. Do what ever you were going to do anyway (before or after )...and just keep on moving straight ahead as if nothing happened. " This was the long version...but it fits right into what the article was saying as well.
Don't Cater their Moods! Plus, I'll add....and don't change your mood along with them. That the most important part of all. I'm keeping that one in mind:)
J
yes, good advice J
Submitted by Delphine on
Being very sensitive, I can be susceptible to others' moods, and too eager to re-establish harmony. So I do need to remember your T's advice. Thanks!
Delphine
Thanks NON
Submitted by kellyj on
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Motorcycles and all, you've got love sticking out all over you.
Spent my online time mostly writing to C today. I do read you. I wrote you a long one and darn it, we had a power cut here and I lost it. Kabam. Know that I'm keeping time with you.
N
Backlash...And The Wall Comes Crashing...UP
Submitted by kellyj on
right on my head. I was afraid of this. The ticking time bomb just exploded. My wife went on an all offensive assault and attacked me for 4 hours today. I left the room and close the door...and she came right in and ripped my headphones off my head and started to destroy things when I wouldn't stay and listen to her abuse.
This was the back lash from me calling her out and saying the truth. Four hours. As she said it to me.....I'm going to get you back for everything you've done to me and sit and make you listen.
The truth hurts. What can I say.
And she says she's leaving again....this time, I'm not going to try and stop her. An anxious preoccupied....is just not a good match for a dissmissive/avoidant who's in denial. It's abusive and I don't need any more in my life. I'm sure she'd say the same thing about me....but I don't do what she does. As she see's it....my ADHD symptoms are abuse to her....even though...I've never denied it or not tried my best to do what I can to minimize it for her.
I don't think I've been abusive...unless you call saying the truth in saying that Gaslighting is abuse when I asked her to stop. No doubt in my mind....this is what really hurts.
But the need to attack someone for saying the truth and for not wanting to be co-dependent? That's my definition of abuse.
My heart is broken...I give up. She wins :(
I probably will not be coming here anymore working on this stuff. No need. What I do want to say sincerely...is that what ever I have contributed here in all my rants or long ass posts.......I hope it has helped someone and it has done some good along the way for someone else?
Thank you everyone.....for all your support and understanding. I't been a real education for me ....more than you will ever know:)
J
J, just checked back in. Oh,
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J, just checked back in. Oh, dear. Dont worry about coming and going from this forum. Come when you want. I hope that's often. But when you want. It's you we care about.
Everything you say about control sounds right but my Numero Uno is how you are. When I first read your news just now I thought of that lability you and I have talked about... Pace yourself, brother, in this time. I know you'll call your T. You're a good man.
I second NowOrNever
Submitted by Delphine on
Hope you won't leave the forum entirely. Your contributions here are very valuable, as I've said before.
I'm glad you have a great therapist since I know how difficult it must be for you right now. If your wife does leave, well...it may be time.
Delphine
Thanks You's Guys lol
Submitted by kellyj on
Bottom line? I really don't know exactly what is up with my wife. But something is not quite right...if you know what I mean. She has something that is out of the norm but not exactly a disorder either. I should know? She is a smart intelligent woman..college education etc. I was afraid it was BPD but my T said no. And I agree with that since she doesn't exactly fit that as defined?
What I beleive? Is PTSD but!! Her mother supposdely had Bi-polar but they had her on medication forever...and it didn't seem to do much.
Having said that....a person with ADHD can't expect to take Adderall...and suddenly everything is just all better by itself. That won't ever work if that's what a person thinks?
There's Cyclothymia....which is a milder less severe and less intense type or related Pre- Bi-Polar but not full blown. Her mother had anxiety induced psychotic episodes when ever she had to go into the hospital. She would freak out so badly...she would say or do anything to get discharged as soon as possible and they even had to shut down the wing once because she started coming after the nurses all irate and screaming. It was something else I'm telling you??
The extended family and thought was "early dementia" because she became totally irrational and not even know where she was at the time....but it was so clearly obvious...that the second she would come home...she would be right back to herself again.
My mom had Alzheimer's. They do go in and out....but you don't stay out and not go back in again. lol Wrong!!! Being around her extended family only for her moms funeral....was like a bunch of chickens with their heads chopped off at times!! I kid you not....something more is going on there I think?
Alexithymia can be a symptom and that firs my wife pretty well. I remember also.(going back to Attachment Theory)...I was experiencing some cyclical kind swings myself...but normally am not that way. I do get mildly depressed...but not on any schedule or cycle? I actually think I was experiencing a little cycling moods from this co-dependent exchange or temperaments and became more that way myself. If I think back....that was kind of telling to me?
According to my wife...her mother was diagnosed Bi-Polar 35 years ago or more. All they gave her was lithium and that didn't seem to do anything? Guessing....wrong diagnosis that long ago? Or a incorrect one due to someone just looking at the symptoms and going "yep...that's it." And the way her mother was....she hated doctors or going to the hospital for anything. She had an irrational fear that once she was in...she would never come back out? Like a Sanitarium..."One Flew Over the Cucho's Nest" type stuff. Her mother was full of old wives tales and irrational superstitious fears. Not that uncommon 100 years ago or so. Probably learned by her family at some time?
Any way...it's highly likely that my wife inherited this from her mother....but PTSD can do this by itself? That....and ACOA...which my wife is.
And because her Mom didn't believe or trust doctors....I'm thinking she wouldn't have thought about noticing this until it got real bad herself. In fact if I remember...it wasn't until she had a mandatory psyche exam after this story and that when they diagnosed her. By the court ordered psychiatrist.
To make this even confusing...her mother (a real piece of work) apparently one time...caught (one of her) husbands cheating with a friend of theirs. (or just fooling around?) They were both drunk ( h and her mother) and her mother went in and got her H's gun from a drawer and started waving it around ranting. ( with my wife in the room at the time as a little girl)
As the story goes...."the gun, accidently went off"..and the bullet went through the floor into the leg of a lady sleeping in bed in the apartment below her. And her mother blamed that on her H...saying that was all his fault for cheating and not putting the safety on the gun.LOL Right.
Let's see here....you accidently go get a loaded gun from inside a drawer in another room....and while holding it in your hand with your finger on the trigger...you accidently start waving it around and then pointing it down towards the floor your H .....threatening him to leave or else (who's gun it was) while drunk and raging and upset....and the gun accidently goes off ..and the bullet accidently goes through the floor and hits someone sleeping in the bed below. But that was an accident since your H forgot to put the safety on so it's his fault that the woman got shot in the leg?
In what alternative Universe?? lol
This is the same kind of logic that I experience with my wife sometimes? And even when she told me the story....she still wasn't quite sure if that was an accident or not????
When I heard her say that, I went "your kidding right?" And she really wasn't absolutely sure??? It might have been an accident...but probably not though????mmmmm???
WTF!!!! Like...the lady who got shot in the leg while sleeping in her own bed....probably didn't care if it was an accident or not either way???? lol
And what's the difference anyway....the bullet that went into the ladies leg....came from the gun that was in her moms hand at the time. What more do you need here to determine fault or responsibility???? lol
Who's on first??? And I've seen her family at times....actually discuss or debate this kind of thing but are not really sure???mmmm????
This is what I'm talking about!! lol How can you have a conversation with that? All I know...is something is not quite right in that family that seems to be contagious...or just inherited alone? Or Both??
J
Taking Responsibility
Submitted by Delphine on
MOST people refuse to take responsibility for their lives and actions. Even the concept of full responsibility is alien. They will come up with all kinds of "ifs, ands, buts" to prove it's not true.
We are ALL responsible for ALL of it. That is the basis of Ho'oponopono practice. Here's an article that goes into this. Note the emphasis that taking responsibility does not equate to taking blame:
http://www.peacefuldoc.com/2014/04/taking-100-responsibility-in.html
Anyway....that story about your MIL and their family is a good example of this failure to accept responsibility, J. And funny in a black humor kind of way :) Thanks for sharing!
Peace begins with me,
Delphine
Happy Ending...Kind of I Guess lol
Submitted by kellyj on
The lady was alright and they saved her leg when all was said and done. Having said that....can you imagine being that woman asleep and by getting shot from the apartment above you? It is a really funny story except for one person only! lol
Happily Ever After...
Submitted by Delphine on
...I hope :) What she deserves, after that incident!!
:D
Delphine
J, sorry to hear
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Sorry to hear of all the difficulties now. Hope you stay here.....please. You are invaluable to so many here, including me. I've read all the posts about your wife, and she has some similarities that are also behaviors my husband does. His mother was also bipolar but undiagnosed. His mother really messed up him and his siblings by being SO full of irrational fears and also "full of old wives tales". Maybe it was THAT generation, but there were so many women that seemed to fall in this category during that time. I'd like to know more about that particular time in our country. (Pre world war II, and post) Some women just didn't do well during this time. Interesting
I hope and pray life gets better for you and her. Hugs.
Dede
So how about this, J
Submitted by Delphine on
I really appreciated the advice you gave us J, on only praising our partners, giving it a try for a week or so...letting go voicing any of your issues with them...no matter how we feel.
Maybe you could try this with your wife? But to really take it to the next level...work on reducing the inner issues with her, as well. As we discussed...the answers are all within us. Answers to relationship stuff as well, of course.
Maybe you are right that you need to take a break from this forum, though I certainly hope you would return. Continually speaking of our difficulties in a relationship, doesn't help resolve it. This applies to everything else in life, as well. Are we going to beat the drum of what we want, or of what we don't want?
I have a roommate here...he's been very nice so far, and relatively cooperative. He can forget to do things I've asked of him, like helping with the trash and recycling. I've brought it up a few times and today I decided I'm not going to do so again. I'll trust him to do it, and if he doesn't, I will just do it myself. I think it all balances out over time.
So...if I can't say anything pleasant to him...I just maintain silence and keep busy. I'm not giving him "the silent treatment." I will speak to him if I have something important or pleasant to say.
I am sure these principles would work in any relationship, if we sincerely gave it a go. Although, sometimes separation is the best thing for everyone concerned. I think it is easier to move on from a relationship when we are in a place of peace and acceptance. If we hold on to stuff...that keeps us in a repeating loop.
What do you think, J? Are you ready to follow your own advice? :)
Delphine
Update: A Shot in the Heart....and the Lesson I Learned
Submitted by kellyj on
To update...my wife is not leaving. In fact...she came an apologized (sincerely) for her behavior and took full responsibility for it. I apologized too, for my part as I played into it and contributed too.
If this wasn't a perfect example of the countless things people have said on this forum about having to live with someone in denial...and the heartache it causes...I don't know what else is. On my part that is. Being on the other side of it.
As far as time spent here on the forum....I needed to understand what I was seeing and then figure out how to deal with it. Being here has done just that. I was able to work through this on my own so I could do something about it for myself. This last time might be the final piece of this puzzle for me. I think this last episode could encapsulate the repetitive, unresolved cycle that originates inside the head of somewhat like my wife.
There you go...in a nut shell. Use that as a metaphor if you like! LOL Sorry...just a bit of humor there:) I'm still feeling a little frustrated! lol
Seriously though.....this is a good example of being in a relationship with someone who is co-dependent even if you are aware of it and are doing your best not to be. Just being in close proximately to these irrational distortions even if episodic....has an effect on you... but you can't live in vacuum yourself to try and deal with this.
All that does is make you feel alone and dejected which is the only other alternative: as the evidence of everyone comes here and reports themselves the feeling or after math of doing it that way.
Joining into this yourself: playing along with them, being the good guy, or even if you fight against them...is like trying to win an argument with Sarah Palin or being her campaign manager. This is the definition of insanity! lol
"How To Live With Mental Illness, While Still Believing No One Can Notice, All at the Same Time"... "The Sarah Palin Story: A Legend In My Own Mind".............by Sarah Palin
https://youtu.be/hS6cdqYlmhc
This is such a perfect example of Gaslighting...by a professional in this undisciplined, and completely idiotic way of communication. Clearly...it comes from a particular belief system that has been altered or distorted to fit the person believing it. A person in denial. There you go.
What I really learned from this last episode...was how well my wife can trigger my PTSD and when that happens....my own thinking and the behavior that follows becomes distorted as well. But for me....these brief moments last a mere few seconds. It's within those few seconds..that I need to stop and wait for my relational self to catch up with me. I can't do anything about the shock to my system that just happened....but when this happens... I don't need to follow with her with anything more than staying on this side of it and not join with my wife with where ever she is going in her mind at the time. ( to find Sarah Palin? lol )
Here's the steps I have to take to avoid this and the heart ache I felt every time she threatens to leave....
Even though I knew this already....a person so lost in their heads during this episodes of insanity are still going with it right out the door. Until they calm down and come back to reality again...you need to stop right when you recognize them leaving the planet earth and stay right where you are until they return. If you go there with them....it will only cause you to feel the same way that person is feeling. And the resulting heart ache.
If you separate and disengage until they return....this won't happen and you will be fine.
But in order to do this....you can't be co-dependent yourself or it won't work. You won't be able to disengage which only causes you to have to go with them where ever in out space they are heading? Right? This makes you a victim to them since you have no other choice.
In a case like Sarah Palin....you have no other option. She is in my opinion....in outer space 100% of the time. If you've ever watched her closely...no matter where she is...on or off camera officially and even in her private life. She nuts. That's all I can say. If I were to be married to her (which could never happen)....but hypothetically speaking...my only choice would be to have to get divorced immediately. Yesterday even better. Even better still.....not to have married her. That's it right there. Those are the only options in this case. ( nut case! lol )
But my wife is not like this. She only has episodes like this...and that's when to disengage and then re-engage later emotionally. This was my only failure this time. That last hit to my heart was the one that got me to see this so clearly.
Next time my wife Gaslights me or assaults me with this method....I'm telling myself exactly this....."you are an insane person....when you come back to reality....I will rejoin you but I'm staying in the station on planet earth and will wait until you return."
What I might say to her directly in less words. "I'm not going there with you" And just leave it at that. Her little dramas or reenacting some past hallucination is just that. A hallucination. Just like my LSD experience.
And what I know from that experience...tells me during that time, I am not a fully rationally thinking person and my subconscious is in control. What happened to me the last time when I had my Satori experience was most telling. I gained back the control of my mind even with the power of the drug trying to control my thinking and thoughts (along with the hallucinations). Once you have that kind of control and know how to wield it....you can do this anytime by yourself drugs or no drugs. That's what I learned from that experience and what you never lose or forget how to do once you've done it.
The power you have over your mind to control itself is a skill that you can learn like anything else. That's really all you need to learn in order to do this. But in order to do this....you have to get your own beliefs and thoughts in line and get all those other people out of there by giving them the boot!! lol
Again....if you are co-dependent...you can't do this and you will always be a victim to other people and without the ability to separate and disengage. What I did that day on LSD was exactly that.....separate and disengage from my subconscious mind and I gained full control of my thought and those hallucinations. All those fears, and self doubt and insecurity plus those voices of other people trying to tell you what to do....vanish in an instant. Snap!! It's just me and me baby. No "WE" and no turd in my pocket. I have full control of my emotions 100% even if someone hits my PTSD instinctual fight and flight button over and over. I have control of that too...by waiting that few seconds for the "snap" to happen.
There you go. And when I fail to do this....my heart is vulnerable and get's hit.
Just because my wife goes off into outer space....doesn't mean I have to join her just because I'm married to her. I'm just thankful...she not like Sarah Pain.
But again....I wouldn't have married here if she was. It's just these episodes and adventures in to "outer limit" that I've had to learn how to manage and this is it.
There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We can reduce the focus to a soft blur, or sharpen it to crystal clarity. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to... The Outer Limits.
No Thanks. Been there....done that. And...who's this "WE" again?? lol
J
What I said....play chess with a checkers player. The answer is "YES"..to follow my own advise. But that's the "WHY". That still doesn't mean I don't have to learn "HOW" even if I'm doing it. Learning all the ways you need to apply it once you know...still takes some doing if you haven't done it before. And even then....how many creative ways can someone on the other side come up with to counter you each time you figure out a new way to counter their attempts?
I think the answer there is infinite. You just have to be on top of your game...all the time if your going to play. I think that's the answer Delphine?
What do you think about that? I'd value your opinion here and not just trying to put you on the spot. More than anything...to know if I'm missing something here?
Sarah Palin Gaslighter Extrordindaire !
Submitted by kellyj on
This video....after watching it again is so perfect.
1) If you watch when the question comes and she sees it coming...she started to twitch and can't wait to speak.
2) The she interrupts and talks over the interviewer. Text book
3) Then she makes an accusation that is a lie that never happened. As was said...they never made that promise to her in the first place...but she's sure they did. This is a hallucination. No sense in arguing about that with here...she will deny it and believe it's true no matter what you say.
4) Then she starts grabbing at straws and cobbles together a bunch of confusing rhetoric and non-sense. Classic.
5) Then when confronted with her non-sense. Refutes it with more confusion. By making accurate statements that are irrefutable..and connecting them to her completely irrational and unintelligible which sounds like she is stating fact...when actually just giving a personal opinion which she clearly cannot tell the difference in herself....and uses this confusing lack of logic to throw you off guard and make you question yourself. Emotional thinking by definition. Completely illogical and irrational.
6) And then she denies doing anything she just did by restating the events in chronological order again....as if you didn't get it the first time? This is own verbal inner confusion showing itself as if "I don't know what I'm talking about.....wait....it's you who don't know what you're talking about." Completely ambivalent with no internal integration or awareness of her subconscious and conscious mind doing this. This is her subconscious doing the talking...but that gets flipped when it can't integrate a rational thought to her conscious mind so it gets flipped to the opposite in her wording since she has to attach everything to an external object in order for her to rationalize her thoughts or thinking to her self. She is in a severed state of internal separation and un-integration between her self and other people.
She is her thinking...she has no personal identity. I think it...so therefore it is.
If I had to guess....she is Borderline or Histrionic....either one? Just my guess but what do I know?
https://youtu.be/hS6cdqYlmhc
J
Slinky toy
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
An Alaskan journalist once described Palin's explanations as a Slinky Toy kaboinging downstairs until she convinced herself that she was above politics
;) LOL.... NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I know exactly what that journalist is talking about!! lol
J
The deal is to engage in
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
The deal is to engage in principled action while on your dojo mat. Not while on theirs.
Yes!! And then ...
Submitted by kellyj on
disengage when they leave the station...(or dojo mat)....and then don't re-engage until they come back.
This is exactly what I just figured out clearly!! lol My heart is my responsibly...not anyone else's.
I also think when people say things like "I give you my heart because I Love you and entrust it to you." That is complete non-sense and coming from a co-dependent way of rationalizing that you putting all your fatih and trust in another person because you don't have any for yourself and NEED them to take care of it for you. You are...making that person take care of what you should be taking care of for yourself.
It's rationalization that sounds good but really....it's just more co-dependent rhetoric that kind'a makes sense... but it really doesn't make any sense at all if you stop long enough to think about it?
That's not being vulnerable....that's just putting yourself in harms way voluntarily due to your own inability to do this for yourself. That's co-dependent by definition.
Budgies....Tweet
Submitted by kellyj on
Did she say..."getting Budgets" or "Budgies"? I had to go back to make sure. LOL
J
Enough of the drama
Submitted by Delphine on
Speaking of Attachment Theory...I suspect many here are attached to the dramas in their relationships. That's why they stay with the people they vent about ad infinitum.
Delphine
I Agree ...Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
I really like what Echart Tolle had to say about this which puts this into perspective. (paraphrasing) Just because you are not attached or have a unhealthy attachment to things (external objects) doesn't mean you can't play and have fun, go to work and join into the reality of what is....you just need to separate yourself from it....even if you are joining in and having some fun or it's required to go to work and make money, live life and do the things you need to do to live.
I like that very much. The "drama" is in your story and your attachment to it. It doesn't mean you have to separate yourself from the real world or even in your own relationships. This is what I am learning how to do with my wife. Her little "drama" is her own story talking. I don't have to physically leave her or not be with here...just because she does this when she has her episodes.
This goes right back to what NowOrNever was saying about learning how to recognize it. That's the most difficult part at first and I'm getting better at that all the time. You're only a victim to this....if you fail to do this yourself. It's a skill like anything else that you have to learn.
You asked what I get out of this? I learn a skill that I can use anywhere I go with anyone no matter who they are. And when I do that....I can be with anyone since they're drama no longer affects me anymore.
Having said that...and the fact that I Love to play.....Sarah Palin is just too much fun for words!!! lol She volunteered you know? It's her dojo mat...the rest of us are just playing and having fun:)
J
You're Job, Is To Build Me Up!!!!!!
Submitted by kellyj on
At the end of this latest episode I had with my wife....she blurted this out when she was in full swing. I asked her in the moment."It is???"
I wanted to recount the events as they happened to see the big picture. It helps me see it too...just so you know.
As I asked ..."Is it?" Thinking silently to myself. This is my job....like a job duty?? Really?? That's odd....I never would have thought that? Why would I? And how on earth would I ever know that? Who says? I've never heard anyone tell me that before? That makes no sense what so ever? In fact....that is absurd? My Job?? WTF? Where on earth did that come from? (no where on earth...that's the answer)
But I did ask the question and I got the answer. A download of what I don't do for her....how I fail her....every ADHD symptom that she doesn't like....how bad I am....what a horrible person I am....every fault or failing I have (in her mind)...in a complete download of negativity which came as an assault on me personally from every direction imaginable.
That's when I just got up and walked into the other room and put my headphones on. I could still here her since she couldn't see that I had headphones on to drown her out. When she came around the corner...she saw me ignoring her with my headphones on and that when she went ballistic and came in a tore them off my head and she threw them into the sink full of water (destroying them). Then she tried to take my computer away so I couldn't ignore her any more. Which I then got up and went into another room to escape the onslaught. Which she proceeded in following me so I had to listen to her some more and tried to block me from leaving and standing in the door way. I just turned up the volume to drown her out. She then proceeded to try and rip the charger cord out of the wall so my computer would die. I then got up and went to another room and turned the TV on once I squeezed past her which she accused me of abuse (since I had to squeeze past her to get through the door). The only words I said were...."get away from me. Don't touch me. Don't touch anything of mine."
That's when she did exactly what I told her not to do and started breaking things of mine. (besides my headphone) This is when I tried to stop the damage to my things and in order to do this....I grabbed her phone which was the closest thing near me and used her phone in holding it hostage.
The only words I said outside what I just wrote is.."Don't"...in referencing her to stop breaking things. Which she didn't. So I opened the door and threw her phone as far as I could across our property (about 50 yds)...and stood their looking at her. I wasn't even upset except she broke some things that were very precious to me.
This only escalated to her becoming even more abusive and started hitting me below the belt and calling me the abuser and that my ADHD symptoms were abusive....in and by themselves. And that's when she said...."I'm leaving. Which she then proceeded in spewing even more personal attacks before she was finished. This went on for the 4 hours like I said.
In retrospect and in hind sight. All she could have said in lue of all of this is was...."I'm feeling depressed and need to be built up a little."
Whether I did anything to contribute this or not...is irrelevant. What was really happening was....I had been working non stop to comply with an agreement and an arrangement I had made with my neighbor to finish the fence that I had started and he had completed (by joint arrangement) and I had to do the last part by a specific time. This was my responsibility to my neighbor to follow through with what I had promised. I even predicted my wife ahead of time and told her not to count on me for anything during this time.
She asked me why I said that? Which I replied 'because I need you support my efforts and understand that I will not be able to do anything FOR your during this time." What I got was a kind of "not understanding anything I just said...kind of "yes" in an irritated way.
This was completely forgotten about when the time came and she was feeling lonely and depressed and wanted my attention but couldn't get it from me. She intentionally prevented me from meeting my agreement with my neighbor by having a hissy fit to do so and then another threat in leaving me.
Or so she thought. Nice try. I worked all night with lights and finished the job anyway..on time....on schedule. Despite her efforts to thwart me and force me to pay attention to her. She was going to get her way no mater what. Like a 13 year old girl having a hissy tantrum and needing to be the center of attention which caused her to have an amnesia attack and forget everything I had told her ahead of time since it was the weekend when she was off and was ready to be with me but couldn't.
The only mistake I made in all of this was throwing her phone which clearly didn't stop her anyway and only gave her more ammo. That was my mistake. What I did right....was to completely ignore her and get as far away from her as possible. That was after I got angry at her for forgetting our agreement and when she started getting hostile.
That was my big mistake. I should have walked out the door and went to work and not let her stop me from doing my "job". The one in the real world....not the hallucination job in her head that told her that it was because of me...that she felt the way she did and was depressed....as she saw it my "Job" was to build her up and make her feel better and somehow....I wasn't doing that when I made a promise to my neighbor to enlist his help in a joint project together. He was getting all attention....she wasn't getting so she tried to stop me from giving it to him. That's just messed up on her part. I'm clean here except for throwing her phone. That was really the only mistake I made but I can do this better next time...that doesn't take away from everything else she did or why the problem existed in the first place. That's her denial of her own personal problem.
As far as I can tell and everything I know from a history of living life to this point in my life. It's never been my "Job" to be responsible for another person emotions and I have never had that responsibility. Ever.
But as I have come to the full realization about this. From inside the mind of a co-dependent thinker like my wife....you are never going to win in getting them to see that when they leave the planet earth..... or until they come back down to join you in the real world outside of their heads. Never.
What my T keeps telling me "don't make anything you do....contingent on anything...anyone else does."
I think....that's the last time, my wife will ever get me to do anything that I know is the right thing to do...no matter what. Whether she likes it not. Period. Her liking it....is competently irrelevant and immaterial.
However....I can try and give her more quality time not quantity time. My wife has this all screwed up. She thinks the amount of time is most important....and that somehow proves that I Love her...the MORE time I give her. This proves nothing. It's irrelevant and immaterial.
Look at the 4 hours she got. How she got it. And the quality of that time? What she really did...was steal my time from me by force and make me pay for her own inability to know what she is feeling and why? In which I had to work all night without sleep (thank God for Adderall in this one event! lol She forgets....I can do that anytime I want as needed if I have to. No problem for me. I'm immune and that doesn't hurt a bit).....
And then to simply speak it...in those terms. That's all she had to do? That was the only problem that existed and that is a personal problem...not my mine problem. That's all in her head. That's just messed up emotional thinking complete without logic or reasoning and failure to communicate on an intelligible level that anyone can understand as far as I'm concerned?
She'll go for a while until the next episode comes...and when that happens....I'll be ready this time:)
J