Context: I am the non-ADD spouse. My husband has been diagnosed, after much resistance, with ADD and was on medication for approximately 2 years. He went off of his medication about 6 months ago because of increased anxiety. He didn't tell me. I thought he was moving into early Alzheimers, very worried and scared. Lots of increased anger in the relationship from both sides. His side: Increased forgetfulness, inability to stay on task, very long hours at work (1 job) to accomplish the job. Financial difficulties with creditors from medical bills - insurance foul-ups but little to no, now late, follow through. Explosive anger, slamming doors, cabinets, throwing things. Withdrawn into the TV. My side: I have tried to implement what I have learned from the counseling sessions through this site....months at a time but lately I have fallen back into increased frustration to not being heard, seen or acknowledged consistently. I work multiple full and part-time jobs and have the full responsibility of the business of the relationship. I have become, again, Irritable, bossy, demanding - almost doing anything to get any kind of attention. I am overwhelmed with my emotions often, turning sullen and withdrawn. Communication is only about surface things - movies, music, what's for dinner. Lots of walking on egg shells in this household. If the conversation becomes more real - business, relationship, expectations, frustrations it turns into a VERY LOUD argument and often things get broken.
Blended family with 4 adult children. 2 his, 2 mine. 3 live away, 1 lives locally. We have been married for 11 years. Been to 3 counselors for multiple years each.
Our blended families, the kids, don't get along with each other. The 3 daughters - my two and his oldest, who is older by 13 years and is a different life stage, married, Highschool children, can get along reasonably well most of the time. His son dislikes me - has since before we married and has been vocal and aggressive about it with me off and on throughout our marriage. There has been times he was not welcome in our home due to his disrespectful behavior. Those boundaries were mostly placed by me and not enforced by his father. His son, who was with us every other weekend in hs is now living about 14 hours away from us and usually is only home a couple of times a year. Thus, the holidays every year....usually not much fun. My mother lives close by and there were multiple issues with my husband's children during the 2 weeks my father was dying. My mom has MUCH difficulty forgiving and wants little to do with my husband's children. When my siblings and I and our spouses get together for events with my mom, none of our spouses children are invited or included. My husband's children take great offense at this and are very resentful. I have had this particular discussion with my husband's oldest daughter, explaining I cannot control my mom and I hope she would focus not on what my mom doesn't do but instead on what I do for her family....which is quite a bit for a person with my employment hours.....but this continues to be an issue and probably always will until my mother dies.
This year I recognized that for the first time in years we would have all the children and their girl/boyfriends (1 spouse) in town and initiated an evening for us all to get together and have a Christmas time together. I worked hard to find the time with everyone's other families schedules, flights, etc. Everyone agreed to come. His son's new live in girlfriend would be coming and since me and my girls hadn't met her, we could that evening. Just a couple of hours. My girls weren't real keen on it but told me they would do it, be courteous, etc. for me and because they have fond feelings for my husband. I was hopeful we could have a light time, have a bit of conversation and just all see one another for a little bit.
Issue: My husband's daughter and son are upset to not be invited to my mother's house for my family's Christmas gathering. His son wrote very hurtful, disrespectful texts to his dad about me and my family. I opened my husband's phone, saw my name on a text, opened it and read it. I then texted his son and shared how upsetting that was and told him he is not welcome to come to my house until he apologies. Huge fight between my husband and me for me looking at his phone. Name calling, household items broken, etc....not good. My husband: I was in the wrong to look at his phone and his son can say anything he wants to him about me and my family, not my business. I was in the wrong and the son was just fine. No apology needed and that's that. His son doesn't like me. I have treated him unfairly and his son's anger is a bit out of control but justified. Me: I would like my husband to demand that his son speak to him about me respectfully...sharing concerns is one thing but ugly, hateful statements about me and my family are not acceptable. When my girls were younger and talked to me about his children, I called them on it and have had said things like; if you have a problem with XXXX you need to talk to them. Or, that is my husband, or my husband's son, you are talking about and I don't want to hear it. (When his son became threatening of me and one of my daughters, I took appropriate action and blocked numbers, talked to police,etc....for protection. But, that hasn't happened in many years and I was hoping we had gotten past all of that.)
Two days later now. We haven't talked about it again. We are back to our shallow relationship..... Egg shells, etc. I have taken care of fixing the broken household items. We are spending Thanksgiving apart next week...he is going to his daughters with his ex wife and her husband....I am helping my 80 year old mom cook for my siblings and our children. Living our typical separate lives. But, I feel separate even when he is home so what's new.
I know his son will not be expected to apologize, and won't, and the Christmas gathering I have planned and bought for will not happen. At this moment, I am not willing to 'give in" on that boundary and will stand my ground. The divide continues to get bigger. I have grown to really dislike the holidays. Actually, I have grown to dislike this blended family and all the gunk it involves. I am feeling like it is a hopeless situation.
Would love to hear thoughts on this. Is my request for an apology unreasonable? I don't trust my husband stands up for me....really the trust factor here is the main issue. Thoughts?
Hello LindaLou,
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Hello LindaLou,
I am now rewriting my response. I had such a wonderful reply, and then somehow I hit a wrong key on my keyboard, and it all disappeared. . . .and I could not get it back. Gak. I hate it when that happens.
My thoughts are that many of our dreams and expectations for the holidays are based on something we have seen or experienced – in a magazine, on a TV show, on a billboard, or in a movie. Those images cause us to un-mercilessly judge our own experiences. Oh, how sweet it would be to have all members of our family put aside their differences for just the day, hold hands around the Thanksgiving dinner table, and each person share what they are thankful for during the past year. What happens is someone does not want to hold hands, another refuses to share because it is a dumb idea, and yet another uses the opportunity to get in a passive-aggressive stab at someone else. Family. A mixed bag of nuts.
You said: “I have tried to implement what I have learned from the counseling sessions through this site....months at a time but lately I have fallen back into increased frustration to not being heard, seen or acknowledged consistently.”
I understand that. It feels very frustrating when a possible solution to a problem presents itself, but we do not feel the cooperation we had hoped would make a probability become a possibility.
Whether ADHD or non-ADHD, mixed families are tough. And a lot of work. Families of origin are tough, too. And a lot of work.
You have stated a lot of struggles that are happening at one time. Oiy. A real recipe for disaster. It really is not a hopeless situation. Erasing all the problems and making the holiday a Hallmark channel movie, now that would be impossible. I have come to learn a good place for me to start was to fully grasp:
It is not up to Liz to fix/repair/control/anyone's relationship with anyone else.
My spouse’s relationship with his siblings is his business.
My spouse’s relationship with his own children (they are both adults) is his own business.
My siblings' relationships with other siblings, other sibling-in-laws, my own parents, are none of my business.
ADHD surely is a reason some things go awry. ADHD surely is not an excuse that those things are acceptable and should be overlooked. As with many aspects of life, timing is a key component in addressing these things.
It surely is NOT wrong to enforce a boundary when someone has threatened physical violence. And if they don’t like it, they will someday – we hope – understand that they hold the key to having that boundary removed.
We know if someone was rude and unreasonable. An apology would be nice. If the offending party does not want to improve the relationship with you, you are setting yourself up for a battle of the wits trying to force it to happen.
Many teenagers dislike their parents’ household rules. It becomes a double whammy if the teenager knows he can play one parent against the other – step-child or not. Add ADHD, and it really gets messy.
It is still wisdom to let a child know that you will listen when they share their hurting/troubled heart, however, if they have a problem with XXXX they need to talk to them. You can be willing to be a sounding board, and even a suggestion giver – but the actual work will be up to them. The triangulation will stop when you remain in the neutral position. Or, ‘the persecutor position’ – that is where you will have to sit for a while if you have previously played the interloper in others disagreements. Been there. It was painful for a while. I heard a few, “How can you be so mean all of a sudden?” Now it is a comfortable place keeping out of other’s business.
As for Liz, I am continuing to reiterate to my spouse that he is entitled to his feelings, as I am entitled to mine. If I feel I have been hurt, I will let him know. He can choose one of 2 options:
1. Insist I am wrong, unjust, accuse me of expecting too much out of him, accuse me of being unreasonable, and insist I recant what I said – which will not do anything to improve our relationship.
2. Take a minute and try to understand/acknowledge what I felt and why – which will go a long way in improving our relationship.
Liz’s understanding of what Liz wants and hopes for and desires is NOT AT ALL based on how my spouse tells me it SHOULD be. Those 'shoulds' do not make for a warm and fuzzy relationship.
To sum this all up, you can find a way to have a happy holiday season. You really cannot fix all the problems and have a photo-shopped image of a perfect family gathering. That effort will burn you out really fast.
Liz
Holiday stress
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Ugh! The holidays are a very stressful time for many families, and particularly for the women who are (mostly) in charge of making things happen.
I'm not sure how I feel about your access to your husband's phone because, quite frankly, I have gotten onto my husband's electronics at times and found things that were important to me. On the other hand, I do appreciate that though he is very capable of it, he isn't snooping around in my email (nothing there to find of interest, but the trust and differentiation between us that this represents is important.) That said, I think the issue isn't so much about your being on his phone - easy enough to apologize for that and say "i know I was nosy and I'm sorry...I saw my name, and impulsively read." The bigger issue is the one in which family members are asked to take sides against other family members, and where are those lines drawn?
And, quite frankly, I don't know.
I don't have a blended family...but how do you ask a person whether or not he should 'side' with his wife or his child? That seems almost impossible to figure out. So, perhaps, the bigger picture response is to simply require that everyone in the family be respectful of everyone else by virtue of the fact that they are family. But then what do you do when one person isn't respectful, as had happened in your lives? Again, I think that the issue isn't about trying to help a person like another person (and I know you aren't suggesting that) but simply that no matter how they feel, they must still be respectful.
If so, then that shakes out, for me this way:
Maybe that's blasphemy - but really...life is short. Keeping family together at all costs, even after they are adults and they've STILL been disrespectful and/or hateful just doesn't cut it. If they are that rude they can suffer the consequences of it.
Hmmm...that sounds more harsh than I normally sound, but I'm pissed on your behalf!
All of these children are
Submitted by LindaLou on
All of these children are grown. His children are 42 ( lives locally, married with husband and 2 HS age children) and son, 28, new atty in city 14 hours away. Mine, 29 and 26 both living away with boyfriends, working on careers. His children have knowledge of all of our marriage strife - he uses his daughter as his "counselor" and she talks to her brother. My children haven't been aware of our marriage issues because I don't share our marriage issues with them. They are quite fond of my husband, their dad is not in their life and has never been, and I haven't wanted to taint that. They are aware of this situation, however, as I called and told them. I felt like it wasn't fair that my husband's children have all of the information and I have been feeling ganged up on. Perhaps wrong to do, but I am feeling very alone.
My husband says the party is still on. However, his son texted my oldest to ask if they would get together with his new girlfriend since the atmosphere at our home wasn't going to allow the party to happen. So both sets of children thought the party was off, mine for sure since I have requested an apology and there is no way She replied that she didn't think that was a good idea until my husband and I got things settled. She doesn't care to see him really and in her words he is not important to her. My husband is really the only one she cares about. That is how both my daughters feel and they are trying to stay as neutral in this as possible.
I asked my husband to send a text to all of them requesting all to come to our home, be respectful of one another and move forward -set our expectations for the gathering since it is in our home, especially since he does not believe that his son owes me an apology at all. He won't - he says that he doesn't think anything will fix this and he doesn't tell his children how to behave, that they are adults. Here is the main trust issue. I believe that my husband has talked with them openly and disrespectfully about my family and if he sent that text, his son would call him on it. I am certain that my husband has participated in these kinds of conversations with his children about my family, my mom specifically, and so the culture of disrespectful conversation has been allowed. His son just talks like that, my husband tells me.
I believe that if we have the party, his son would not be outright disrespectful -say things, but instead would ignore me, as he did openly and blatantly when he was with us every other weekend while in high school. He would literally walk past me with and turn his head, would not speak to me while in our home, even when I spoke to him, or only give short answers. All of this was ignored by my husband then, he said he didn't see that happening, although at one point we had his son go to our counselor and he admitted he purposefully ignored me, was proud about it actually and when the counselor told us that, my husband said there was nothing he could do about it. So, since there was never any conversation about that being disrespectful then....I believe that would happen again. His son's disrespectful behavior was what got us into counseling in the first place.
I am coming to the conclusion that I do not want to have this gathering anymore. I will do something fun with my children and my husband can do something with his. My children have no desire to see his son over the holidays and they won't meet him for Happy Hour or something to meet his new girlfriend. What I realize is I have been the only one who really cares about this group coming together and I am tired of being the match maker and doorstop.
My bigger question and more important question..... is what to do about a marriage where I am unsupported and unhappy. I think these issues are much bigger than ADHD issues. Why am I still here? I do not like myself and how I act in this marriage and don't like being blamed for everything, being ignored, nor my feelings discounted. My husband will not treat his ADHD in any way, he will not go to counseling. Period. His perspective is I am the only person at fault here and me only. Not him, for setting up a culture of disrespect, not his son for saying those things about me and my family, only me. He is absolute about that. And, He is not willing to take any action....his answer is to do nothing. Perhaps this situation is the defining moment where I can see clearly how very unhealthy this relationship has become. We met 13 years ago this New Years Eve. Married 11 1/2 years ago. It takes one person to say no. I can choose to stay and have no expectations, find others to meet my needs and have the financial stability I have enjoyed with two incomes. Or, I can choose to set my limits, end this farce of a marriage, find some peace in my life, continue to work on me and perhaps I can find someone with whom to share my life. There are glimpses of times when my husband and I enjoy each other, have fun together, share great political discussions and faith discussions. I will miss those tremendously. If he won't take any action, I feel like I don't have much choice here. I believe his children have won. Makes me sad.
Holiday Stress...
Submitted by kellyj on
Ugh!!!!! My sentiments exactly!
I love Christmas.....for about 3 or 4 hours tops! My favorite part is in knowing that it will be 364 days before I have to do this again. lol
It's the stress!! Unfulfilled expectations and disappoints, increased responsibilities, increased expectations,increased work, increased apprehension and anxieties,increased shopping and fighting for parking spaces, increased intake of food and beverages, decrease in sleep, disruption of schedules and routines and an immovable time line to do it all in. This is an ADHD nightmare!! As I see it...it's literally the only day of the year that the majority of people are all on one schedule at the same time. And for those who aren't invested, don't have a religious conviction or are of the wrong faith....they're just along for the ride and have no choice but to ride the wave until it passes. This includes me even though I really do enjoy it as I said.....in limited doses. Sometimes....I wish I could take a sleeping pill that lasts from the day after Thanksgiving until Dec 24 am... that would be fine with me.lol
Given the choice....depending on circumstances...I might pass entirely. For no other reason than the stress and disruption to my life and my routines takes me completely out of my game and everything becomes worse and is amplified. The stress is sometimes more than I can handle. It's what ruins it for me. That's my perspective
I can see this several possible perspectives here. For a teenager...it might be something like "I hate this, I hate this, I hate you, I hate everything!!" Unless things have changed?
For a person who is in to it like my mother for example....she was off in her own world of Christmas magic and trying to recreate the past and seemed oblivious to how it was effecting everyone else.
My father looked constipated and annoyed the entire month. He always said he had to work late for the Holidays....but later when I worked with him...I think he stayed late to avoid the chaos and disruption at home. He got very anxious around Christmas time and didn't look like he was having very much fun.
My point here I guess is to say that what I noticed from my experience...that Christmas was great when I was a little kid....but then it became something not so great somewhere around when I was a teenager. Later...it became something to dread. The only consistent constant variable was my mother. She seemed to love it the entire time every year while the rest of the family became increasingly less in love with it as time went by. I think it's good to pay attention to what's happening around you and not get too swept up into doing something "just because."
J
Separate Christmas
Submitted by LindaLou on
I have presented the scenario of, you have Christmas with your children and I will have Christmas with mine, and my husband is quite mad. He is now not speaking to me and sleeping in the other room. He won't engage with me, unless I am doing something for him or needs help to find his phone, wallet, keys, etc. to me the logical solution to this situation is separate Christmas gatherings. He can have the house for his party and I can have the house for mine. Let's just move on and get past these holidays.
His daughter sent a text yesterday to all the grandparents about celebrating her sons birthday this weekend - she included me. I asked my husband if I attended would he talk to me. He said "I might talk to you but I guess we need to talk." and then worked late avoiding a conversation. This morning I approached him before work and his response is I am shunning his children and this marriage is intolerable. I reminded him that he has told me that his son dislikes me and has always disliked me. His response is I set up the situation for him to dislike me. If calling his son on disrespectful behavior is setting that up then I would agree I have because I have set boundaries and will continue to set them. Our counselor at the time supported my setting boundaries and encouraged my husband to present a united front to counter his son's disrespectful behavior. he was unwilling to do that and so the disrespect continues.
His daughter, although inviting me to the grandson's party has sent 4-5 texts over the last week to her dad adding fuel to the fire. Texts like...Is this blended family over? Linda seems so angry and the XXXXX girls (my daughters) are blocking all contact. She is 42 years old and continues to add fuel to the fire. No supportive marriage texts like - I hope you all can work this out. I know marriage is hard work, hang in there..... No, just adding to the anger. My children on the other hand are trying to stay neutral. They don't want to have Christmas with his children. They all live in different states and don't really care about seeing them. What a mess.
Should I just walk away from this marriage? I have this spiritual side of me that says I made a promise and commitment. Do I honor that and live with this disrespect? he has said no about taking medication and said no about counseling. I have said no about a family gathering with someone who was so disrespectful. We have both set our boundaries and neither likes what the other has set.
He said he would talk to me tonight. I am his 4th wife and I have a feeling based on what he said this morning he will be telling me it is over. Of course, It only takes one to say no and then I will have no choice. I would love to hear your thoughts.
The question is one that only you can answer for yourself . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
LindaLou,
. . . . .that question being: Should I just walk away from this marriage?
Believe me, there was a time, over 4 years ago when I first found this forum , when I wanted nothing more than for someone to have great empathy for my plight and re-affirm I had every right to dissolve/end/get-out-of my marriage. I have gathered a lot of ideas and suggestions - from some that sounded downright judgmental of ME. . . . . . . for staying . . . . or still staying. . . . . to direct, specific steps to learn to live with all that is going on, and determine to make it all "A.O.K" My goal is to continue to learn to get to that place of "real." Not bashing my spouse, yet not glossing over things to paint our relationship into a fairytale. And especially, being true to LIZ :) She who IS worthy of respect :)
I have this spiritual side of me that says I made a promise and commitment. Do I honor that and live with this disrespect? I see this as 2 separate issues. As much as you made a promise and commitment, so did your spouse make the same promise and commitment to you. For Liz, the 'worse' in 'for better or worse' equals unforeseen medical crisis like cancer, severe physically debilitating accidents, burglary and theft of our possessions, things out of our control - weather calamities, fire - or financial crashes that were due to monumental medical bills, economic turns, deceit by an outside party, unforeseen loss of a job Feeling a lack of respect towards you, especially consistent disregard for your feelings and ideals and dreams - that is not anywhere near the same.
My own discontent with help from my 'church' has been I have received a lot of direction in how to assume all blame, and if I would just learn to submit, if I would just learn that as soon as I started being 'obedient' things would get better, if I would just pray harder, if I would just pray more, if I would just allow the Holy spirit to have control of me, if I would just let go . . . . . . . . . . .well, as long as Liz kept asking "What is wrong with me?", they were quite willing to tell me. Blech.
There is certainly a lot of information here. A lot of ways to look at your own situation. A lot of ways to make choices that are good for LindaLou.
I could not see the forest for the trees. Sure Liz has flaws. And some character defects. I continue to learn a lot about a relationship. Mostly, Liz can only do the work on her side. And require respect. . . . . . . and learn to walk away from disagreements where all respect - - based on MY OWN definition - - - crosses into disrespect. This has been tough. As I learn better, I STILL get frustrated that I cannot alone take my relationship and adjust it into something that works well for both of us. And I get even more frustrated that I am powerless to MAKE it work.
Very Truly,
Liz
Thank you. Wise words.
Submitted by LindaLou on
My step-daughter talks often about how she has stayed with her husband of 21 years even when unfaithful. She talks about how any two people can make a marriage work if they are committed to each other. She also talked about how important her commitment to her vows and her promise in front of God was to her and of course the disruption for her 2 children who were in middle school at the time. When the unfaithfulness was exposed, I was the only "parent" who supported her to do what she thought was best for her. Her mom and dad and brother wanted her to divorce. It took quite awhile for the hurt feelings to level out and for the whole thing to blow over. She set boundaries with him and they went to counseling. Her husband got on medication (was diagnosed bi-polar and ADD) and made promises to work on his own issues. He has done so pretty well. My children are being supportive of me, are supportive of my husband too and would tell him that if only he would talk to them. I wish so much that his children would do the same. I cannot control others. I am so very sad.
I could not see the forest for the trees. Sure Liz has flaws. And some character defects. I continue to learn a lot about a relationship. Mostly, Liz can only do the work on her side. And require respect. . . . . . . and learn to walk away from disagreements where all respect - - based on MY OWN definition - - - crosses into disrespect. This has been tough. As I learn better, I STILL get frustrated that I cannot alone take my relationship and adjust it into something that works well for both of us. And I get even more frustrated that I am powerless to MAKE it work.
You have hit the nail on the head. I wanted so much for this marriage to work out. There are so many good things about him and us and when we are good we are really good. To state my own inventory as you do......I do have flaws, character defects and have NOT handled all of this with love and care. I have been angry and have said and done things I regret. I have tried to make my amends. I just want this all to go away but it seems to continue and continue even with grown children. I really thought the solution was just for him to do his thing and me to do mine with our respective families, and focus on us coming together as a couple. I believe the marriage takes priority over the children, especially grown children.
This situation meets my definition of disrespect and obviously meets his. I too get so very frustrated just as you say here. I am powerless to MAKE it work. I am powerless to make it work. It takes two to be all in. Honestly with all of this history and as we all know once divorce becomes an option with that first divorce, it often is the easier route to take. I imagine I will have more information tonight after we "talk." Thank you.
We all have a right to make decisions
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
We each have a right to make the decisions that feel most comfortable to us...and then, of course, to live the consequences of those decisions. It is becoming more clear that the consequence of proposing separate Christmases will be significant discord in the family...and that may still be okay if having those around you treat you with respect is your top priority. I am non-plussed that this is your husband's fourth marriage. Though it may always have been someone else's fault (as most people describe their divorces) you are seeing now that it's likely he played a role. Sigh.
This is a time to look deep inside yourself to see what is really important to you. Perhaps the question to ask your husband is something like "Look, I suggested separate holidays because I don't like being treated like dirt. But perhaps you have a better idea? My goal is simply that others in the family treat me respectfully - I'm open to all ideas." See if you can make him a partner in solving the problem....If he doesn't think you have a problem, the response is "you may not think it is a problem, but I genuinely do...and since I have a problem, then you have a problem by default...so let's see if we can solve it together..."
As for making amends for your past behavior. This is generally a good thing - if you blew it in the past you should be willing to own that. The most important question right now is - how are you doing right now? I am NOT suggesting you roll over. Only making sure that you are being your best self while you are also sticking up for yourself. If you are treating him well you best make your case for him to treat you well.
Good luck with it...
I am the problem and only me.
Submitted by LindaLou on
My husband firmly believes I am the only problem here. He does not believe he has a problem by default. All of this issue is about me and me only. He would never try to solve the situation with me because in his mind I have created the problem and he has NO role in it, nor do his children. He just will never talk about it again....until we argue next time.
Last night we went to his daughter's house for the grandson's birthday. I stepped in the house, greeted everyone and was pleasant with everyone. I told my husband before we went that I was nervous and would appreciate it if he would make a little extra effort to talk to and with me, to sit by me. He said he would and we all did well until the very end of the evening as we were leaving. His daughter, he and I were talking.... just the 3 of us. The only time during the night we were in conversation alone. He made a sarcastic comment about me always trying to control him and then reached out and put his arm around me and laughed. It was said in jest and I responded with something like yeah, I guess that is just about everything I say and walked away to put the glass in my hand in the sink. We said our goodbyes pleasantly and left. When we got home I said, I enjoyed this evening and believe it went well. I do have one request. I would appreciate it if you would not make sarcastic comments about me to your daughter. It was unnecessary. I don't like that, I don't do that to you, and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from that in the future. (I practiced before I said this so it was in a conversational tone with open non-verbals.) His response to me was "We had a good evening and you pick that one detail out and focus on it. It was said to be funny. It doesn't matter what event we are at you would find something to be upset at me about. I don't even remember saying that and it didn't matter and wasn't meant to be hurtful." My response, "I said I enjoyed the evening and believe it went well overall. I am allowed to tell you how I feel and ask for you to not make sarcastic comments at my expense. There are many ways to joke without it being about me. I would appreciate it if you would not do that again." His response, " It wasn't hurtful and you are being over sensitive as you always are." I said, Thanks and went in the other room to watch TV. He stayed in the living room and watched TV.
I know I am especially sensitive to this situation. He is right about that. I find it interesting that he had to make that "joke" in front of his daughter - especially after all we have been dealing with lately. I was telling a friend of mine about it this morning and she thinks he unconsciously, or consciously, wants to show his loyalty to his daughter.
He believes anything I say is trying to control him. Asking him to go to counseling, making suggestions about ways he could take care of his snoring so I can have some uninterrupted sleep, asking him to not use his daughter as his marriage counselor, asking him to pick up his newspapers out front of our house that pile up, asking him to help with anything - is controlling him. This is what he said all his wives have done - all trying to control him. I have made efforts to work on this dynamic but no matter what I do or say, I am controlling him. We have fallen into the Parent/Child dynamic and I have been working hard to stop that. Obviously, we have a ways to go before we are through it to partner conversation.
I find the saying "In every tease there's half a truth" to be true.
The Christmas event is happening and I have concerns. I will be hospitable no matter what. If his son is rude or sarcastic my children will jump right in to take care of it....but, I He won't, his new girlfriend will be here and he will want to be pleasant in front of her. My husband, on the other hand, may do this again - he does it a lot. His sideways comments ARE hurtful. I feel like I put myself out there by going to her house and then got smacked. My gut is screaming about this. He is really angry and it comes out sideways. The anger is just under the surface and is BIG. Neither of us will mention last night again. We don't talk about issues. Movies, sports, music. Mostly just work and have little interaction.
I am feeling bullied. My gut is screaming for me to pay attention to this...perhaps that is my ego talking? I am working to intentionally keep my side of the street clean,state my feelings and needs and be my best person. I am tired.
LL It is Not Only You
Submitted by kellyj on
what you just said is the denial on your H's part. That is not your part of this but it is the thing that is contributing to the vacuum or space that is being filled by it.
Looking at this another way I am feeling bullied. My gut is screaming for me to pay attention to this...perhaps that is my ego talking? I am working to intentionally keep my side of the street clean,state my feelings and needs and be my best person.
To what you just said....your gut is right and you are probably being bullied in one respect. The denial I think is the real culprit however. It's also the 1/2 of the story that your H is isn't saying because he can't see this himself? That's the vacuum that needs filling in your current situation and the reason for the triangulation I think.
If you can use what I said to see your way outside of this in an objective way ( my attempt ) without taking it personally.....I think this might serve you to pin point where the problem is and why it exists in the first place? It really is not personal but it's not easy to remove yourself from the situation that easily I know. Trust me....I KNOW! lol
If I did this well in trying to explain this to you.....I hope you can see a different approach to the problem than the one you have been using. This....I have discovered myself and with my wife in our own struggles at times has proven to be the best course of action in every respect in getting things to change. Knowing what approach to use and why it seems was the only mistake I was making in not realizing this sooner. It really is just like beating your head up against a brick wall to keep doing the same thing and it not having any impact or positive effect. If what you are doing now only creates more negativity.....finding a different avenue to approach the problem will certainly be different than what your know now?
Since I already jumped on Melissa's coat tail here in this thread.....I might as well give you the same advise that I learned from her and have used with really good results......"lobby for change." I think I can safely say that this is good advise and is a good approach for you to take other than the one you are doing now.
I truly hope that this helps in some way for you. I'm sorry for my inability to be succinct but's that's another issue and just one of mine lol If you can get the jist of what I was saying and taking anything that will help....then al least this was my intention and I hope it gives you some ideas?
PS..I think what happens in a situation like yours is that everyone gets to pointing fingers at each other as the reason or the things to blame....and everyone is wrong. If everyone is wrong....it must be something else? I just reread that dig that you H made about you being sensitive in front of his daughter. He's wrong there too and that was done in a very disrespectful way to you I totally agree. It was a shitty thing to do and it only perpetuates this nonsense. It may be true that you are sensitive....your sensitivity is not the problem. The kids see that as the example and follow suit. In reality....his denial is to blame for this one interaction and kind of shows you exactly what I am saying. Your not to blame....he's not to blame...the kids aren't to blame....no one is to blame except for the denial itself. Everyone (in a perfect world) should be pointing their fingers at that instead. In what I'm saying....your should be pointing your finger at that and saying so. This is where you stand up and assert yourself and not blame anyone inside the dynamic and blame the dynamic itself and the cause for it....denial. You are in denial too by the way as long as you are doing this with them. If you can separate yourself like this and see the problem for what it is....you can start blaming that and speaking up for yourself that way. Everyone is passing the buck...and the buck stops with you if you do this correctly and keep pointing it out to your H until he see' it too. Hopefully...he will?
J
Ambivalence
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
My husband used to do the same thing - and he did it when he was feeling ambivalent about me. Sort of like poking the hornets nest to see what happens. The other thing he did in a similar vein would be that there would be something loving and romantic he could say (or I might initiate) and then he would take a short pause...and then turn it into a joke. There would be no straight up statements of love because when he got to that place he always had to bring in some sort of joke to remind me/us of the ambivalent past.
Used to drive me nuts.
In our case, the ambivalence was all about my telling him what to think, say or do. He hated it, and just couldn't let it go. It was an overall feeling - in other words, not related to what was going on at the specific time, but more about what was going on in general. So in the situation you describe, the night went well...but one night that goes well does not erase a more general feeling of unease...and that is what you saw pop out. Furthermore, it probably popped out because he uses his daughter for emotional support - no doubt this has been a topic of conversation between them before.
In my opinion, the best response (during the transition period you are in) is to say something such as "I may have been controlling at other times, but not tonight. Tonight has gone well." Then note his comment for later and, if needed, address it as one of a series that creates a pattern. As you transition away from parenting him...and as he learns you are doing this, you will still have numerous times when you can either bring something up immediately or choose not to. In this particular example, I think what you would have preferred he learn is that he can, indeed, have fun with you (i.e. focus on the other 97% of the night). Instead, what he learned was that even when he has fun with you, you still pick out what he did wrong. Not where you wish to be headed!
Does this mean you won't get your needs met? No, but it does mean that you need to understand that working as a set of small, individual skirmishes doesn't help you overall - too many negative feelings to glom onto. Instead, think of this as something that will change over the long-haul...and that having a large number of clearly positive experiences will help. If you know of John Gottman's work, the ratio you need to get to is about 5 positives to 1 negative...(and him too, but you can't control his behavior).
Thank You Melissa
Submitted by kellyj on
In our case, the ambivalence was all about my telling him what to think, say or do. He hated it, and just couldn't let it go. It was an overall feeling - in other words, not related to what was going on at the specific time, but more about what was going on in general.
I can't tell you how many arguments or just plain frustrating moments my wife and I have had over this very thing exactly! It drives me nuts too or use to at least. The entire argument was spent trying to determined what was wrong. I use to try and describe the problem to my wife without knowing how....and she would always bring it back to the moment or the specific thing that was bugging her. In her words she would say " I need you to give me specifics.....you're being vague....I don't understand you when you speak in generalities" (in general )
The problem is....Ambivalence isn't specific? How do you tell someone or explain this to them without having it hurt their feelings? I could yell at her say "quit mothering me!!!!" and she would understand that...but that doesn't work very well as you already know. lol It's not vague on my end....I know exactly what it is that I don't like but I could not find the way to get her to see it without it always coming back to the specific moment or incident which it was never about? She was confused and I couldn't get her to see it yet....I could clearly see what she wanted and that was not confusing on my end. She would always say.."I just don't understand why this is so complicated. You always complicate everything when you do this." On my end....it wasn't complicated at all!! lol After a while....you just give up trying to talk about it any more since all it does it create more problems. All you can do is just walk away feeling unheard with no resolution in sight either now or in the future.
"I may have been controlling at other times, but not tonight. Tonight has gone well." Then note his comment for later and, if needed, address it as one of a series that creates a pattern.
We have started doing our own version of this and it works quite well. Admit your part and then say what's on your mind and the other person's part...and then say..."we're doing pretty good aren't we?" Touching base....and then move forward from there each time. Every time we do this, we both walk away feeling heard and there's no confrontation involved.
Thank you for confirming this strategy (or approach).....I think just from the experience that my wife and I have already had with this.... it has proven to work:)
J
I Just Rememberd ...About Ambivalence
Submitted by kellyj on
Melissa,
I wish I had remembered this sooner. How my T described Ambivalence (long ago...I just forgot?) "Holding two separate feelings about something (or one thing) that are both true....but yet are incongruent with one another at the same time." (quote..unquote) How many ways did I just try and describe this in this thread? A bunch! lol "Oil and water.....incompatible...different set of rules....etc etc etc...." It may get manifested in other ways...but the feelings where it begins are actually more than just one and they are both different.(I said that already too :) The right words sure save a lot of effort! (whew!) lol
"I love you...but I hate when you ????" This was very helpful:)
J
One version of this
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
One version of ambivalence..."I love who you are inside (kind, energetic, interesting, smart...whatever) BUT I hate the way you are treating me right now..." Differentiating person from symptoms (or responses to symptoms) can be a very useful tool. Shines a spotlight on the problem - not the person, but the HABITS.
One good strategy for living with ADHD, whether you are the person who has it or living with a partner who has it, is learning to tolerate incongruence. There are going to be things that don't always add up, due to the inconsistencies that ADHd places in the relationship (and, again, responses as well.) If you can learn to tolerate situations in which not all ducks are lined up in a nice row, that can be very helpful for you both. Some would call this flexibility. Others would call it living in the present....
Nice point Melissa....
Submitted by c ur self on
Could have avoided lot's frustration and conflict if I had had this tool in the box early on..
When I was at home 15 minutes after I got off work doing chores and finally got her on the cell phone at 6:00 pm and she had been at the dirt cheap store (lots of priceless treasure in her mind:). for 3 hours wondering the isles with no though of time or the pressing hunger in here husbands stomach I'm sure I would have handled it differently when we spoke...
As a matter of fact with your tool here I would have went on with supper and my thoughts of her would have been...Oh well, she somewhere doing what she enjoys....
Seriously I do appreciate your teaching points such as this priceless one:).....
C
YES! This is the ADHD Ambivilence
Submitted by kellyj on
Melissa, what you said here...He hated it, and just couldn't let it go. It was an overall feeling - I can easily pin point my own ambivalence and how I feel....and I can relate to your husband very well indeed. You might call this the ADHD experience that we carry along with us....or put differently....the ADHD ambivalence. I might go as far as saying that this might even be the one thing that is common to anyone who has it on some level depending on each persons experience with it while at the same time say it is the experience itself.
What is it that your husband really hates? It's the treatment that is received from others. As Gottman's research has proven....negative experiences carry more weight individually than positive ones. I know this without questioning it and yet....even when I recount all the positive sides of myself compared to the negatives I can easily come up with more without questioning that either........but that's not how it feels. It feels mostly negative many times regardless of the positive sides even if they may be fewer in reality. My self esteem is built on the positives as well as my positive personal goals..... my positive accomplishments....and the positive aspects about myself that I know are all true....yet the feedback (or treatment from others at times throughout your life consistently tell you otherwise) along with the evidence that support's them. I totally get where LL's H is coming from in respect to gathering support from a positive source (his daughter) in support of this aspect of how he feels from the effect this incongruent feeling has on you. This really is the internal struggle that is going on inside you in the battle to maintain your own self esteem and how your feel about yourself. This is where the phrase...."it has nothing to do with you" comes from. It's also the reason why anyone on the receiving end of it should try not to take it personally yet full knowing....how difficult this is to do? Why? For the exact same reason....the experience itself is personal since you're the one experiencing it. That part is undeniably true.
It is an attempt to counter the negatives aspect with the positives to balance out this feeling that you carry with you that is incongruent and conflicted but never gets resolved. Whether it is warranted or not becomes irrelevant to the person who is fighting to maintain their self esteem in the face of getting barraged at times with too many negatives coming at them consistently (or all at once in spurts at different times) because most the feedback you receive throughout your lifetime is negative and has this effect on you. It really is this feeling that we hate.....which in turn and respect to it....we hate it when we are reminded of it and have to look at it every time it get's mentioned and resurrected inside us at the same time. At the same time is the key word here in this relationship. We don't hate you or the one's we love anymore than you do with us for the same reason.
I could say it many ways...."between a rock and hard place" is the first one to come to mind. In reality....it's between (our) ADHD challenges,behaviors,symptoms that we like less than you in many regards.....and who we are as a person without them. You really are both in other words and they are very much incongruent with one another even if that is not what it looks like or feels like from for those observing our behaviors on the outside.
The "denial" specifically? Not wanting to look at it and feel this feeling. Denying it's existence....turning away from it....ignoring it....not being aware of it........blocking it out of our thoughts (in an effort to stay positive and balance it out internally)......all in an effort to eliminate it from existence which ultimately does not work.
I've found the only thing that can be done realistically is to embrace it and make it your ally or friend instead of fighting against it as if it was your enemy. If you read my last sentence and apply this outwardly as it comes through to you on the receiving end......this is what you see when we're not doing this well.
When we fail in our own internal fight for our self esteem each time this happens....we end up fighting you instead as if you were the enemy.
Speaking for myself now. Every time I fail at doing what I just said..... that's how it comes out but it's never what is happening at the time or in that specific moment. It's never about what is going on around me and that's never what's it all about. Even with awareness of it.....each time I get that "hit" to my self esteem.....the process begins again and I have to walk myself through it each time to reach the other side and come through it once again. Having to do it or not do it is not anything I have a say it or have control over but it is required whether I like it or not. It can be exhausting if you are exposed to too much coming at you all at once but it does get easier the more you do it.
The rationalizing process that I used before (one of my adaptive strategies to counter it) in my inability to know any of this or be aware of it is where all the lies come from and for that reason alone. Within this comes the another problem we have to face. Being accused of something that looks like one thing and yet it really being something else. If you are going to admit wrong doing and take responsibility and any failure on your side....you are faced with judgments, labels or assessments of you that simply do not apply and worse possibly.....admitting something that your not doing by confirming to other people that they are correct in what they are seeing but wrong for the reasons why? Intention is everything but it does little to solve the problem or make a difference to you.
It's simply not having any other way to explain it to yourself accurately or correctly but not wanting to admit things that YOU ARN'T doing at the same time. There it is again....the ambivalence.... "at the same time." Again....this has really has nothing to do with you or anyone else ever. It's not personal since it gets applied to everyone every where you go.
But... it can be a useful tool as well once you are aware of it. If you can learn to use it and not allow it to effect your self esteem at the same time.....then move past the part that you hate most about yourself (this feeling)....... it opens up a number of positive alternatives and ways to make use of this feeling in only positive ways. Learning to befriend it and using it to your advantage is always positive once you begin to realize the advantages this feeling can have for you.
The hardest thing that I think I have ever done in my life time of experiences (based on all the negativity in my past) and one of the greatest accomplishments that I have now come to be aware of and learn ways to overcome.....was embracing this feeling and making it my own to use in positive ways instead of denying it and remain hating it and fighting against it as my enemy. When you fail at doing this...... is the equivalent to hating yourself every time.
I cannot tell you how much courage this takes and how impossible this seemed for me as I was in the past standing there with this thing in front of me. This is the part that I think is also part of the ADHD experience (living with ADHD as you said) that is difficult for others to understand. You ( as in everyone else) know your own version of ambivalence for your own reasons and having to live with it. To each their own. ....but the reward for doing it is the difference between fighting your entire lifetime against yourself....and learning to love yourself just the way you are.
This is not something that you can ask or demand of anyone else except yourself....that is the error in our thinking when we try and do this I think. Yet once you learn how to do this it seems.....the need to defend against it goes away along with your ability to succeed in moving past this feeling itself and not getting hijacked by it and compelled into all the behaviors that come from failing to do this consistently (or at all in the moment) When you succeed here in this one obstacle...it will extend outwardly to all your other endeavors and your self esteem remains intact no matter what happens or who you are confronted by and can take as many hits as others can dish out since you yourself are no longer negatively affected by it anymore.
(or far less than before? It still bugs me and I have my moments lol) But Gottman's ratio no longer applies to you anymore. You can't stop or control the negative experiences from happening in your life....but you can change the impact and the weight these negative experiences carries with them. I cannot begin to express just how difficult wrangling with mother nature is to do. What was that commercial? "Don't fool with Mother Nature?" ha! She hadn't met me when she said that. lol
When I say I do understand.....this is what I understand and how difficult it is to do:) I see my wife and see this fight going on in her and I know it has very little to do with me in the moment....and mostly to do with the exact same thing. My role is helping her get there by doing everything I can to help her in the process. Whether I chose this role or not....this is the one that I have and I can see the same path in which I got there to use a my means to guide me.
Funny thing that just happened yesterday when I went to my Vet office and started grilling him for answers to questions my wife had about our cat and the treatment he was giving her. I causally mentioned that I knew from my past experience that if I cam home without these answers for my wife that I would be left without any unless I predicted this for her and came home with as much info as I could. I was apologizing to him in this moment for appearing like I was questioning his ability or expertise and wanted to make sure he knew that I myself had every confidence in him. It was a casual and polite thing to say to assure him that I was satisfied with what he was doing and explaining myself to him for asking so many questions as I was representing the two of us (my wife and I) even though..... I was actually apologizing for my wife needing so many answers even if I did not. That's how it came out at least.
He turned to me and said...." tell your wife....that control is an illusion....all we can do is guide the results we want in life which applies to trying to circumvent any problems that we might have in the future. That's really the only power I have in the work I do as a Vet. It's not an exact science, and this is really all that I can do."
I kid you not.......straight up out of his mouth and that was the only thing I said to him at all that had to do with my wife in the entire conversation! (or previously ) Swear to God:)
Thank you again from the bottom of my heart for bringing this up. I actually used this already with my wife last night and it only proved to help provide real answers to our past and put them to rest once and for all. In approximately the same words....this is what we talked about. This is the place where we are in the transition as you mentioned.....simply being able to talk about it without having it become a fight in itself. That's the goal isn't it:)
Thank you,
J
Ambivalence. . . .what the heck
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I had to read up on the definition of ambivalence. It is one of those words that I had heard, yet never bothered to look at very closely, and obviously had been using incorrectly.
noun - ambivalence is defined as the mental disharmony or disconnect a person may feel when having both positive and negative feelings regarding the same individual. Ambivalence is struggling with whether to invite someone to an event because she has a positive relationship with you but not with the other attendees. Ambivalence is a state in which you lack certainty or the ability to make decisions.
I have surely been guilty of applying the word incorrectly: This word is often used as to express a lack of concern about the outcome of a choice to be made . In this case, a more appropriate word to use is indifference.
Anyway, I see that is the 'state of being' I had been in for quite a long while - ambivalent.
Melissa said: "One version of ambivalence..."I love who you are inside (kind, energetic, interesting, smart...whatever) BUT I hate the way you are treating me right now..." Differentiating person from symptoms (or responses to symptoms) can be a very useful tool. Shines a spotlight on the problem - not the person, but the HABITS." Clearly describes what I have know for a long time - we need to learn to separate our 'who' from our 'do'
I had to learn to apply that to myself, and also had to learn to apply it to how I felt about my spouse.
Strange how in hindsight I can see clearly how we had developed 'relationship dynamics' that worked in a freakishly poor manner on both sides of our fence. They served a purpose, but one I no longer want to serve. I have gone from taking misguided responsibility for my spouse's self esteem, to breaking under all that strain into 'forget that, I am NOT doing HIS part,too', and now have entered into a place to try to discern how to be supportive and encouraging in love, yet not accepting behavior that is hurtful, and not enabling poor behavior by assuming responsibility for all the problems - in our relationship.
Thinking NOT AT ALL about my spouse as a man - only looking at our BROKEN RELATIONSHIP - and what I can do to improve it - even if that means stepping out of denial and realizing it is not a healthy relationship for me. How it is working today is not working for me.
What it CAN BE. . . . . . .well, that has yet to be determined.
And how do I feel about that? Who really knows. I STILL struggle to find that tidbit of knowledge that will help me differentiate between feelings and emotions. That line is so blurry. . . . . . . .
So very truly,
Liz
Liz...Your Not Alone
Submitted by kellyj on
My wife said the exact same thing. "I thought ambivalence meant being indifferent"....which she immediately googled on her phone to read it for herself. If I recall....I thought the same thing when my T explained it to me. I got it confused with the word "ambiguous"....which refers to more than one explanation and not being able to make a decision or make up your mind about something. More like being on the fence. One could argue that they are related ..."My ambivalence to my wife was causing a great deal of ambiguity in our relationship." There you go.
As far as.. I STILL struggle to find that tidbit of knowledge that will help me differentiate between feelings and emotions. That line is so blurry. . . . . . . .
I think I can help. Go to the kitchen and get a knife and come back where you are now ( assuming your home?) and sit down and stab yourself in the thigh so the knife sinks all the way into your leg.
The feeling is pain!!! lol
The emotions you will have as a result of this might go something like this "why did I just do that?" ( confusion ) "What is wrong with me? ( self deprecation ) Why did I listen to J !!!!! ( regret ) He was so stupid for telling me to do that ( blame shifting )....I'm so angry with him right now. (anger and more anger) What an idiot I am for listening to J!!! ( more regret and self deprecation) I'm so angry....errrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!! " (anger)
There you go....and please don't do this! It was for illustrative purposes only! (sarcasm) lol
J
J, do you have a few more examples?
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
OK. That story line makes perfect sense. I was trying to apply it to other scenarios and got stuck.
I am reading on the importance of knowing the difference between emotions and feelings, and the value that knowledge means to personal growth. Emotions are intense - our temporary initial attitude - and ensure immediate survival of self.
Feelings are low-key - our sustainable long-term attitude - and ensure long-term survival of self.
Here are six examples:
1. Happiness is a feeling - Joy is an emotion. . . . .this one especially confuses me. I thought it went the other way around.
2. Worry is a feeling - Fear is an emotion
3. Contentment is a feeling - Enthusiasm is an emotion
4. Bitterness is a feeling - Anger is an emotion
5. Love is a feeling - Lust is an emotion
6. Depression is a feeling - Sadness is an emotion
Searching for input,
Liz
Liz......This is Tough Sometimes I Know
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm glad you didn't take my example as just being flip. I have my own difficulties expressing things sometimes. Like Melissa mentioned...at times from habit even....I can make light of things that are not always a laughing matter. I use to do that more in person like her husband but I'm assessing myself now in these moments and thinking that I a quite comfortable now with expressing my emotions better without minimizing them or adding my two bits in as emotional tag to try and work my message in that way. I think these tags are the things that get you into trouble. Ambivalence? I think so.
So Liz....the easiest way I can describe the difference between feelings and emotions is: feelings are a sensation even if it's not physical like my example. That example is a good one because this sensation of pain is easy to identify. Emotional pain...or feeling hurt....is a feeling too. It's not a tangible thing but more of an experience.
We experience feelings.....but our thoughts and how we express them come through our emotions. That's why they not always easy to nail down.
Here's another example using Ambivilence.....
The feeling of Ambivalence is the feeling or experiencing the sensation or being incongruent. A state of being vs a state of mind? Possibly....it that makes sense?
Think in terms of the term "sentient being". Animals and even insect are "sentient". They have feelings in regard to being able to sense differences in things like....hot or cold, hungry etc......Hunger pangs are feelings. Being horny is a feeling too....just for example. lol
When someone hurts our feelings....we experience hurt. Hurt and pain are feelings even if it's not physical pain. Discomfort is a feeling as well. Embarrassment for example. You might be embarrassed for any number of reasons....but in the moment went it happens.....you might feel it and still not know why? You may have no emotions at all except just a feeling. Gut feelings too. Their feelings without emotions the same as hunger or having to pee....but it things go to long and you don't address these feelings.....they start to become emotions and that involves your thought processes now.
On a technical clinical level....I think it's fair to say that feelings are in a primitive state of being. They get translated and turned into emotions and then get expressed by our actions and words. Our thought that come into play here determine what the emotions end up being? Feeling are pre-emotions possibly? I'm only going off of intuition here....I don't really know the exact or correct way to say it..... but I know what it is? (my own words only)
Another possible example to differentiate them....(differentiating the two are what we are talking about here)
Feelings we react to and sometimes have little control over them. If you touch and hot stove....you react by reflex action and pull away long before your thoughts ever catch up to the instant you feel the pain. Like the knife example....the emotions come later. Reflexes or instincts do not require emotions to turn them into actions..
I think the hard part about defining emotions comes from the fact that they are ever changing and variable and dependent on other things happening at the same time. Ah ha....at the same times again. That's a good clue right there? When you burn your hand on the stove......or when someone hurts your feelings....you experience the sensation first....and then the emotions you have in relationship to the experience come later. Sometimes much later? ( especially with ADHD )
Also....emotions can get very complex and complicated. I have felt this incongruent feeling for a very long time ( since I was a kid)...and it just runs in the background like on your computer when you have a program still running that you are no longer using but it effects the program(or web page) you are currently using and slows everything down. When Melissa brought this up again....I had another one of those....ah ha! moments. Now I have a name for that feeling where before ....I just couldn't seem to place it exactly.
Other ways to describe feeling "something is wrong"....might be included with Ambivilence could be.....dissonance, disharmony, emotional imbalance, gut feeling, out of syn, not feeling right etc etc.....These aren't emotions and are not always easy to pin point. They are saying something or trying to tell you something but you can't always use the unless you understand which one is which.
Not to refute you and I am not 100% sure you are not correct...but if I take your list and apply what I am attempting to describe you wight see where we are seeing things differently or what we think they are? I wouldn't mind if anyone corrects me here either since this is the first time I have ever tried to put this into words or be tested on this topic? I love to learn and love tests for that reason.....I don;t mind if I'm wrong and it's pointed out to me:)
1. Happiness is a feeling - Joy is an emotion. . . . .this one especially confuses me. I thought it went the other way around. Yep....I agree with the order you have the in. You can have everything go to s*^%T in your life and have no joy...but still be happy. I agree with this but you have to work on this one to get there...it doesn't necessarily come naturally or easy. More like Love in that respect.
2. Worry is a feeling - Fear is an emotion Yep....were on the same page.
3. Contentment is a feeling - Enthusiasm is an emotion Yep
4. Bitterness is a feeling - Anger is an emotion Yep
5. Love is a feeling - Lust is an emotion No.
Love is a feeling and and emotion simultaneously? It's a compound emotion? I think would be the best way to describe? You can still feel love even without the feeling of love being present. I really think there is a direct connection to yourself here that comes into play with Love and it's more than a feeling. OMG.....that's the name of a song! lol
Lust is a feeling....I'm pretty sure about that but!!!!! I'm a guy.....I think that makes a difference. lol Our equipment along with the extra testosterone may have a lot to do with that....(*thinking it does lol) More like hunger pangs to be honest....that's what it feels like for me? And for what it's worth...I have talked endlessly over this topic with men and women in the past and it does appear that there is a common general difference which does help explain the stereotype. Women it seems more commonly feel lust after the emotions that bring them to the feeling. Men just feel the feeling and can go from there....emotions or not. Survival of the species stuff I suspect? lol I will say however...this changed as I got older and am now probably more just like women. My emotions need to be in place first before I feel like having sex. Not so much when I was in my teens and twenties however!!! Forget about it!!! lol My early experiences in this area before I was married suggest however....there are plenty of women out there who are not like this and are more like guys when it comes to this. Vise versa as well. Generally speaking however...I think this might hold more true:)
6. Depression is a feeling - Sadness is an emotion Yep...pretty much. State of being is feeling depression or depressed even if you are not feeling sad or for no other apparent reason. Sadness you can feel and not be depressed. Exactly. But I think these are compound integrated feeling and emotions and those get harder to pin down.
Like feeling ...incongruent. don't ask me to describe this one...it's very complicated!
I really like this...
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Liz - I really like what I read here:
"...and now have entered into a place to try to
discern how to be supportive and encouraging in love, yet not accepting
behavior that is hurtful, and not enabling poor behavior by assuming
responsibility for all the problems - in our relationship."
This is a much, much healthier place to be. Plus, it probably means that you are providing for yourself and your relationship a much more stable set of expectations and guidelines. When you align the "encouraging in love, yet not accepting behavior that is hurtful" with your deepest values, the result can be that you behave in a way that presents your 'best self' to your relationship while also clearly delineating your boundaries...'this is what I'm willing to live with...and this is not." Bravo to you for being able to move towards this place. It is respectful of yourself and your partner.
Delineating Boundaries and Deepest Values Falls On Deaf Ears
Submitted by kellyj on
When you align the "encouraging in love, yet not accepting behavior that is hurtful" with your deepest values, the result can be that you behave in a way that presents your 'best self' to your relationship while also clearly delineating your boundaries...'this is what I'm willing to live with...and this is not."
I have done this with my wife ( I believe well....without jokes and in a serious manner from my heart or hearts)...and what it appears like to me a soon I start saying anything outside of what she wants for herself ie: the picture in her mind of the perfect home and the perfect relationship and the perfect life for herself.....it falls entirely on deaf ears.
Anything outside of this "picture" does not register at all. Because of this....she ( to this day says untold hurtful comments, dismissals, disparaging remarks and negative remarks about things that are near and dear to me.....or......simply refusing to look at or attempt to see what my deepest values are while at the same time.....has no idea what my boundaries are that might coincide with my personal aspirations and goals. That includes personal taste differences, opinions and feelings on something that are different than hers or even just simply saying "I don't care....it not important to me." I'm saying these moment when we are NOT fighting or at odds with each other in a more general sense about anything and everything and just speaks straight up how she feels at times with no regard for her audience?
If it's not int the realm of what interests her....I don't care......it doesn't exits and it's not given a second thought. And I don't care in this case means purely "indifference" not "ambivalence" as it appears to me?
Keeping in line with this discussion.....when I confront "ambivalence"....I might feel irritated, frustrated, angry or uncertainty? When I confront "indifference"...it only hurts and nothing else. It appears she feels entitled to do this at will with not boundaries or guidelines at all on her end any time she thinks it or feels the need to "share" her thoughts about things in a way that completely dismisses my feelings with no apparent ability to know that she is even doing it.....the only word I can use to describe this behavior is "boorish" or "insensitive". This isn't Narcissism at this point I'm sure (also confirmed by my T)...but just simply bad manners and thoughtlessness I think? How do you confront that one and tell a person who hasn't learned good manners or social skills.....to just go out and get some? On my end.....it just hurts and there appears no way to stop this? If I get angry finally after too many of these but still confront her directly and not passive aggressively at all.....the conversation shuts down immediately and she clams up tight. Once that happens....if I try and say anything....she lashes out in anger. Shut down means....no admittance!!!!!
She has used the words "soft skills" as her way of describing this challenge but I think that's taking a great deal of artistic creative license and painting that in a very favorable way. In other words....she hurts my feelings ALL the time!
All of this I'm saying appears to fall on deaf ears with no acknowledgement and not affirmation on her part of even understanding it.....as if it is invisible to her? I could say this another way....if it's not interesting to her or what she wants for herself.....she's not interested at all for me or anyone else.
Anything outside of her field of view is invisible to her like it doesn't exist. When I speak directly and plainly about these things that speak to me deeply....they are immediately dismissed and forgotten about as if I never said them. This "picture" or image she has in her head as she referees to it alternatively as her "dreams" I have come to distrust and now at times...have come to really begin to dislike this picture intensely. It's this picture that I see causing the problems in our relationship many times if what I want or what speaks to my deepest core values does not fit inside the framework of the picture itself. When I step out of the picture and want to pursue my own "dreams"....is when the problems begin. Inside the picture can still pose problems of course in all the usual ways but she is finds as long I stay within the frame work itself. These aren't bad things by the way. These are all good positive things on my end that many people would find fulfilling. Limited may be another way to say it on her end?
How do you establish or delineate boundaries with a deaf person and you don't speak sign language? When these boundaries that appear to be already in place that were never explained to you (you never got to look at the picture and they refuses to let you look at it or talk about it) which by all accounts now on my end..... appear to be in a picture that only one person knows what it looks like to even know where the boundaries are until you've already crossed them. The only way you know this comes from an over reaction and accusation as if these things should be clearly know by everyone as if we all have this same picture in our heads and they are all exactly alike?
I feel very much like I was deceived at times since I listened and shared my picture with hers in countless ways and heard the words that she used to describe hers which sounded the same to me as I would use in the same way? Her words...do not seem to appear to be in the same dictionary I'm using apparently? I'm not saying she lied or intentionally tried to deceive me.....but her ability to paint a picture that is a realistic version of living with another human being ADHD or not...needed to include a lot more information that was simply left out as I am finding out the hard way?
On my end....I feel I did a very good job of painting my picture well with lots of detail and not much wanting in information needed to be complete..... and am willing to discuss it...change it.....and redo it as many times as I need to make my wife fit into in any way I can. I am an artist after all.....creating images is what I do?
Deaf ears or something else? Is this a gender thing or what? I would appreciate any input into what I said because this is really a problem for me and yet.....I get almost no input from my wife into this other than anger. This is one of those...."I don't want to talk about it" moments..... and trying to talk about it when she says that has become a federal offense. Her picture is off limits!!!!
Any thoughts?
PS just cam to mind "I think it...so therefor it is" I could have used that instead
J
Actions we apply to our feelings get us in deep doo doo
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
Since January, I have basically tried to hold my tongue - not at all stuffing my words - but making the choice to try to let my words do no more harm to myself, to my spouse. nor to our relationship.
It is a tall order I am trying to fill. Wish I could show you all the bite marks and scars on my tongue.
On top of differentiating between feelings and emotions, I have been trying to apply a communication technique I learned. It has not yet become an automatic response. It is all based on explaining my feelings WITHOUT assigning the blame to my spouse, or judging his actions. All these feelings are uniquely Liz's - and have no right or wrong to them, no morality is attached at all.
It is a horse of a different color when I attach an action to them - like a judgment.
Here is the technique:
1. Any time I hear myself say, or I even think, the words "I feeL. . . . . . .", I take a moment and exchange the words "I am" for the words "I feel".
2. Does what I said make sense if I exchange those 2 words?
3. If the answer is yes, than I have expressed a feeling, uniquely my own. If the answer is no, I exchange the word "I think" for the words "I feel."
4. Does what I said make sense if I exchange those 2 words? If the answer is now yes, I have expressed a thought or judgment.
.....it falls entirely on deaf ears. I know this so well.
I have had the tail wagging the dog. I have expressed myself over and over and over. I wanted TO MAKE those deaf ears into open ears. It was a lesson in futility.
My stance has become "I am eager to express my concern to open ears." I am waiting to discover open ears, that want to hear what I have to say.
The reality is - it can go either way. The deaf ears could open. Or, I can make an alternative choice of ears to share the gifts of Liz. I can hope those deaf ears will be open by the person who closed them.
For now, my efforts are better spent on self enrichment. I am enjoying Jingle Bells, and Ho Ho Hos, and all that stuff!
In the holiday mood,
Liz
Good For You Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I think that qualifies to processing your feelings and reaching a conclusion before you speak. It works well when we can do this on our own and not share them all with other people. That does get you into trouble! This is what my wife fails at doing....she reacts to her emotions instead of processing them. Her feelings take a hard right turn every time and come out of her mouth. Not her strongest feature and other people...not just me....have taken exception to that. There's a difference between being assertive in a coherent fashion and just simply emoting? Could emoting be considered a form of reaction and not emotions? Disconnection between the two in the moment? Maybe. Sounds good at least! lol
One bit of info that my T said to me when I was alone with him recently. He basically said that I (and he) are both rather self reliant and not too dependent. This is an objective statement not a judgment. I may verbally process things as I speak....but I do most of my emotional processing alone and don't include others in the process. My wife appears to be quite different in that she is processing, emoting and speaking all at the same time. It venting, communicating and processing is what I really think it is? The problem if you are on the receiving end of this (the one being accused or wrong doing) is that it's not constructive and it's usually hurtful. The feeling you walk away with is hurt...instead of motivation in a positive way correct the problem:) It's difficult to do something for someone who just hurt you even if you know they are right and it's something you should be doing. I get that you the person on the giving end was probably hurt before and is carrying that into the conversation unbeknownst to the receiver at the time. The receiver...only knows the hurt and feels badly from it. If that's your intention....it works quite well. If not and you want the behavior to change instead.....better leave hurt out of it and just stick to the program instead:)
It's why my T made the suggestion to her and one our new rules......"come to a conclusion first.,...then talk about it." She hates this and I can see her biting her tongue too....it's pretty obvious but I see her trying:)
I appreciate that
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Melissa,
Thank you. Your words encourage me that I am continuing in the right direction. I gotta say that my journey has become much more pleasant in the recent months.
Very Truly,
Liz
Success!!! Yahooo!!! lol Thanks Melissa!
Submitted by kellyj on
Melissa,
I have to share what happened last night....I think I nailed IT.....and the main problem that my wife and I have had in communicating in general. This applies directly to when we miscommunication and we both walk away feeling......well feeling bad or unheard. Now I can put this together and tell you exactly why and what was the magic key. Let me try and explain.... this time, I can put my wife and I both together in the same room at the same time and tell you what happens. I suspect this might apply to others with ADHD as well..... but I will only refer to myself and why these things happen to me. This involves my triggers....my wife's triggers and why they are specific to us. I'm also assuming my wife is fairly typical in this one respect so this should be good for anyone reading this on either side of this issue.
The pattern......
-On my end....I will be doing something....it might be anything but.....I am present. Present in the moment and aware of myself and what is happening around me at the same time.
-Enters my wife into the room and I can see on her face that something is wrong. This face tells me from the past that my wife is going to say something and it's not going to be good because she is likely to bring up something I did or forgot to do......since that moment is gone and in the past....I get the hit that tells me that I have done something "wrong". My wife admits she is a black and white thinker which she is almost proud of as she will tell me at times that this is a good quality to have. I've told her many times....."when it is appropriate" not all the time. But because of this....she tends to see things as "right" and "wrong"..."good" or "bad" even if I tend not to see things this way. I can be black and white at times...or I can be other than that as needed....I'm not stuck in this being the only way I confront an issue together. Right there is a problem for me. "Wrong" is a negative. So is the past ( going backwards)....instead of moving forwards (where you want to be headed) whether it was yesterday or 50 years ago (I'm 58)...only one result will happen on my end if I go there...I will feel incongruent....I'll feel bad and guilty...and I won't be happy.
So in the moment...when I'm being present and looking forward to the future and doing things to get there....I'm being positive. That's my energy and how I get things done by staying that why as much as possible. I do my best to keep negativity out of my head and out of the moment that I am in. Without any influences from any where else....I manage to do this fairly well because I know how important it is for me to do this. Part of the reason why has to do with suddenly feeling incongruent which is all about the past.
On my end.....the way I get rid of this negative feeling is to process it and reduce the effect it has on me. When something negative happens....I need to process it and get rid of it before I can move on to being present again. Ruminating (or worrying) is just my inability to process this negativity completely so I can move past it and move forward to the future (back to being positive again and being present). The process ultimately allows me to one thing...."let the past go completely" and move forward in the moment...one moment at a time and always moving forward towards the future in a positive way and experiencing what is now. If I an do this....the world is my oyster. I can create positive moments and keep creating them as long as I have moved from the past to the present moment. Creativity stops when you are not living in the present moment. That kind of sucks if your an artist! lol
When my wife walks in and I see that face....I know we're going to be talking about the past. That's what she does when she has that look. Now my positive mood shifts to a negative since now I'm going to have to talk about it with her. Actually.....not talk about it on my end.....hear about it. That's all she wants to do so she can vent it and process it herself. I might say that she even has a compulsion to do and I wouldn't be too far from the truth. She cannot seem to move past these things until she expresses them directly to me but that is not how she approaches me. She approaches me in these moments as if she is talking about the present or the future which is not what she is doing. That is the source of her ambivalence.... which is caused by every time I have ever done this thing (pick one) as she carries those experiences with her along with her into the present moment. I still don't know which one or what she is going to complain about but I have my idea already.
Why? Because I know myself. I expect myself not to remember to do everything that she wants from me and I know all the reason why already. Nothing she can say to me will be telling me anything new yet.....she has to say it. She can't help it...and even if she bites her tongue and says nothing to me directly....the feelings (past negative experiences) are there with her and wanting to come out. She has not processed hers like I have and they are still haunting her....she's worried about the future and basing it on the past.
I still don't know what she is going to say yet...but I'm no longer in the present anymore. I've stopped being present and waiting to see where this will be going....I'm stuck between the past and the future if I'm not being present. I'm now feeling incongruent and negative before she even says anything.
- Now my wife begins to tell me what's on her mind and it always starts out with the past and then talks about the future. Vua La!! She isn't being present but she's talking to me in the present moment. I'm trying to talk about the present time and what can be done right now....and she's either jumping from the past to the future and skipping the present moment entirely!! That's it! whew! It's very hard to talk with someone when they do this especially if you are not.
Having said that....what you mentioned about tolerating incongruent (this negative feeling) for me works like this. Don't defend the past...it put me right back there every time I do this. The past is going backwards....it's negative...and causes me to worry or ruminate but (a big BUT here). Not if I've processed the past and have moved forward from it and left my negative feelings about the past behind me. When I don't do my own processing of my past and the negativity that I have left behind me......when confronted with it again.....I feel as bad as I did when I was there. Why? The experience was negative and so were my feelings back then. Feelings come from experiencing them and that truly what my brain remembers and what registers (now in the present) as negative feelings about myself and what is happening now even if it's not negative. But....when my wife pulls me out of the present with her into the past..... I have to tolerate this incongruent feeling one again and my ability to do this will vary depending on what is happening in the present (my emotional state which is in the present time) and how well I have processed the past and reduce the negativity that I left behind me in that past moment so I do not relive that same feeling again and again each time I do.
If I have done this well in the past and have processed it completely....I do not worry....I do not feel incongruent....and I am present and feel positive. I might get a "hit" again from these past memories and feelings that reemerge....but I've already been there before and if I have to....I can quickly process it through and return to my normal self. The feeling I now have is Happy:)
My wife on the other hand....is not happy and I can see it clearly on her face. What I am not responsible for is her happiness. No one can do what I just said for someone else. I cannot make her unhappy or happy....she has to do this all by herself and I have 0 control over this aspect of her but....I am tolerating the feeling of being incongruent again and not going where's she going along with her. Why would I want to be unhappy? It doesn't feel good and I did my own work to keep myself from being unhappy and staying present like I do on a daily basis. This is what therapy taught me how to do. I read somewhere on your site that that cognitive therapy does nothing for ADHD in one respect. I understand this better now. It doesn't do anything directly for ADHD...but what it does do it teach you how to be present and be happy while you have all the negative experiences that having ADHD will bring with it. Everything I have learned from therapy is how to process the present moment and leave the past behind and not get stuck there living in negativity all the time. The past is gone as they say...only the present moment exists....the future is only dependent on the present moment including being happy within it. That part I have no control over with another person. This is 100% their responsibility no matter what I do or say including all the negative aspects (for them) that cause them to feel this way. I also cannot control other peoples negativity that they include into my own experience with them including my wife. The skill I now have in staying that way as much as possible and keeping negativity out!! (or not for very long....allows me to be plosive in the moment and speak only about what is going on now in a positive way. When ever I do this.....I ensuring that the future will be positive as well regardless if my wife is doing everything in her power in the moment....in pulling me back to the past and venting her negatively about it with me at the same time......which also creates concern (worry) about the future at the same time as well. Just doing the math here.....I think this is the ambivalence and incongruent feeling that is being experienced on the non-ADHD side of the equation?
This is what I did last night. I took everything I just said and all that I have learned....and in that moment....I said this too her directly. "I understand why you are upset or angry with me. Every time I have done this thing (pick one lol )....it makes you mad and I am currently doing everything in my power to make this easier on you so you won't have to deal with this any more in the future. All I can ask of you is for your forgiveness of the past but I promise you the future will hold a different story for us if I can focus on the now and try and stay positive and work on improving like you have seen me working so hard to do. If I could ask only one favor from you when you come to me with a need to express your anger with me. Please try and limit the conversation to the present moment and not bring up the past will you? There's nothing there that I don't already know so there is nothing positive for either one of us in talking about the past right now? That's not where we're headed so why keep going there. If you feel the need to vent about the past....maybe you could do it before you come talk with me about the future?"
OMFG!!!! Deer in the head lights and the water works began to flow! I think she had a "moment"....and it was a present moment not a past one. Since that moment....her demeanor changed dramatically and that is all I had to say. It "clicked" and I could see it happening right in front of my very eyes. What a wonderful experience for both of us!!!
Thank you again so much for being a part of this an helping us get there. I can tell you now without question....this forum was a key reason in my ability to do this and I can't think of how I would have gotten here without my experience here. That.....and allowing me to verbal process this whole time and fill up so much space in doing it. I can apologize for that much at least but without knowing why at the time....it's something I needed to do. Thanks for tolerating me and that includes everyone else who was a part of my making this discovery. Thank you.
K
Being Present...Staying In The "Now"
Submitted by kellyj on
This gentleman has helped me tremendously in learning how to stay present. His name is Eckhart Tolle and he teaches the basic principles in how to do this. By another name it's Buhdism but he presents it in a contemporary way that is very easy to follow and understand. Anyway....I included this video in another thread months ago but I think for anyone searching for a way to do this....it is a good place to start. He's got a great sense of humor too...which never hurts:)
https://youtu.be/dhyOUlilEhs
Follow-up on the Blended Family Holiday Party
Submitted by LindaLou on
Why tell your H's kids when your mom has an event??
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
It sounds like your H's kids are a lot older, and they don't live with you. So, WHY do you even tell them about your mom's events that they're not invited to? Why do they need to know such events are taking place? Can you and your H and your kids go without telling the stepkids?
Seems like an unnecessary hurtful thing to tell them about events where they're not wanted.
I agree.
Submitted by LindaLou on
I don't tell them, my husband does. My mom has had them at some of the events over the years just not all of them. When I have my family over to my house I invite my husband's children and grandchildren too. It is a mess. They like to triangulate. I wish we could erase the hurtful times of the past and move forward. It feels like such a mess. I wish we could just move away and start over away from all the extended family...sigh.
Triangulation! Yikes!
Submitted by kellyj on
I caught that and went oh no! This is such an unhealthy dynamic and one I am familiar with in my own family. All I can say to this from what I observed...is usually the person in the middle (as it appears) is the one doing most of the damage. Not by intention....and possibly got sucked into it....but on a certain level, they volunteered for the job and it feeds their need for control or is the only way they feel a part of the family. If all information seems to go through one source or "switch board" and gets reinterpreted and then relayed on by them to the next person......they do get to decide what is being said and how it is presented for another person. It's bad Juju to say the least. Is that why it's such a mess? As I read what you said.....this would be my guess?
J
Oh Man, triangulation. . . how I despise it!
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Boy oh boy! J,
I have had the hardest time getting and staying out of this sort of communication. I had years of actually 'loving' my 'power' as the ultimate fixer and peace-maker. How blind I was!
I like finally accepting and believing I am NOT the Holy Ghost Junior.
Even thought it is still a struggle, I continue to move towards the goal of only speaking of people when they are present and able to share their own interpretation of what happened, and their own spin on what they want to convey. This is so hard. Liz tends to allow herself to get - well let's say bullied - into the meek corner of, "Gosh I guess you are right." This is a problem that I continue to tackle. What I have learned: do not to stew over my mistakes, do not to try to go back and correct what I allowed, instead to keep it ever present in my mind that I do not have to agree, and I do have the right to assert my own opinion - by either only listening, or even saying, "Hmm, I see it in a different light."
Certainly, it is acceptable to talk about others when it is regarding a surprise for them, or a gift. I try extremely hard to cut discussions to a quick, when I heard anyone sharing their thoughts one what someone else did or said, and verbally state, "I am continuing to work towards not talking about someone else unless they are part of the conversation." Seems like a canned response, yet I know the more I do it, the easier it will be to just have it become part of the way Liz chooses to live.
Very Truly,
Liz
I am NOT the Holy Ghost Junior LOL
Submitted by kellyj on
Thanks for that one....you gave me my morning dose of humor! All kidding aside....I really appreciate your honesty...and it's really great that you can see why this is such an unhealthy way to co exist with other people. In fairness to you and in respect to my comment about getting sucked into it without intention....I was thinking in terms of my own mother here in this example. I could see her trying her best with all good intentions....but how she interpreted things was not always accurate or how the people she was trying her best to represent actually felt. She was clearly in my mind....trying to hold things together the best she knew how but there was a fair amount of denial working that was flavoring everything she said.
I also see this now with my wife and her family too. All that happens as a result of this is everyone is left guessing and no one really knows how anyone feels about anything. In my wife's family for example....I see the simplest decisions becoming monumental problems due to everyone being afraid to say anything and no one speaks up for themselves. I guess you might say that this is the symptom or by product of it.
I have also seen this done in a more malicious and calculating way to control what other people think by only saying what that person wants other people to believe....more like petty gossip done in a calculated way with some intention behind it. The results are still the same for everyone else but possibly even more damaging to them too. Everything is a mystery and there appears to be a lot of privileged information that only some people and not others are privileged too.
And who decides that? The person in the middle. In either case.....no one wins including that person.
Without getting too deep into this here.......there is a reason why the first amendment is so important. Freedom of speech to speak your mind without fear of retaliation from someone else who might not like the sound of what you have to say?
J
Triangulation
Submitted by jennalemone on
This thread is just what I needed to hear. I am at fault in this event on all sides, I am afraid. I never knew the word "triangulation" before and have this morning been spending time educating myself about it. I am having lunch today with some old school cronies....my best amigos. We vent, laugh, remember, compare, and support. I today will be mindful and STOP all triangulation (that might involve me that I recognize). I can see that it is a sign of powerlessness/power. I hope I can use the new wisdom and adapt it to my entire life. Thank you for being real and sharing!
Jenna......I Can Help
Submitted by kellyj on
Liz mentioned acquiring a lot of skill to take my advise and stand up for yourself. I do know this since I had to learn it myself coming from a background (or being born into it) feeling powerless to do anything about it. If you really are so use it and surrounded by it all the time being born into it like this....it robs you of your voice for those who are inside it but aren't the cause or source of the problem. What I trying to say is....you do this too when you learn that this really IS "how we do things". I wasn't being factitious when I said that. The problem is that everyone is doing it together at the same time..... all the time.... and it never stops. Like LL was saying....she witnessed this when she was describing her situation. If you come from not being used to this or you don't do it.....I can imagine how frustrating and impossible this is to get around. The people who live this way are Pro's or veterans at how to play this game (even though it's not a game and no one realizes they're playing). It literally only takes one person to start this in motion ( like in toxic workplace environments ) but only one person can make it stop for everyone else....the person in charge or like in the work place scenario.....the boss or manager. The underlings have no power to make it stop but it takes only one "toxic" individual in the workplace to make it start unless the boss nips that in the bud and puts a stop to it. If everyone involved were savvy enough to see this too....they could stop it as a group but that never seems to be the case and these toxic work place individuals are usually the only savvy ones in the office.
It's office politics by a different name and I for one am horrible at playing them. Why? Because I was powerless to stop it when I was young and didn't have the where for all to know anything different. The reason why I am so bad at playing politics is because the effect this has on you if you are born into is to have your voice taken from you. You are effectively cut out of the "loop" and never get a chance to play and learn how. If there was a master plan or calculated plot by these individuals (which I do not believe that there is)...but hypothetically speaking only....if there was.....it very effectively circumvents any one else from getting a chance to get there two bits in. It's like they cut in front of you and prevented you from having your turn from getting included in the discussion so they can manipulate or control the situation to their advantage. Think about this in terms of corporate climbing, social climbing etc......This would be a very effective skill in getting the competitive advantage over your co-workers or social group to attain status or a promotion?
But everyone else ends up following suit just so you aren't left behind. But it you do not have these skills in that sense...or are trying your best be cooperative and not be competitive like they are in this way....either you are forced into doing it yourself or you end up just powerless and at a distinct disadvantage. One of those is never learning the skills to do it in the first place and never getting that chance. This is just another form of competition and creates a negative adversarial environment even in the office. That's why they call it "toxic".
To sum this up simply.....you never learn to "assert" yourself. What I said is true....by design without intention....this is the effect or net result of it for someone like myself who is born into this kind of craziness. Asserting authority and doing it in this rather unfair way to take advantage of your skills in doing this is unfair to the rest of the people in the group who don't have this ability and are definitely at a disadvantage if you haven't learn these skills yourself. If everyone in the group is lessoned in this kind of thing then they will all be doing it together as a way of doing business as I mentioned. The person in the middle may be an unwitting victim here in one respect because they are just trying to fill the vacuum that this creates for everyone else but they may or may not be the cause or reason it happens but they are the ones that end up perpetuating it. This can and is a "group" dynamic not a one on one thing. That would go to say that in order to stop it....it has to happen on the ground level one person at a time. If you are that one person who wants to get of of this trap....there is only one way to do it.
Go to the top (the boss) and assert yourself......and if they're not the ones who are in the middle and perpetuating it by doing the talking for you....you go to them and tell them to stop. "Stop doing this for me even if your doing it with everyone else......it's disrespectful and presumptuous of you to know what I think and how I feel in order to take it on yourself and speak for me to another person." At the very least....they are operating on assumption and speculation at best and applying their own personal fears and agendas to everything they say that applies to you.
NO THANKS! PLEASE STOP DOING THIS! That's really all you need to say....but first you need to learn how to assert yourself and possibly....take it on yourself to exert your authority over the situation which might include....the boss (he or she?). That's the hard part and the skill Liz was referring to. If you are left at a disadvantage from the effect this has on you and you do not have the skills to up against people like this....you have to reach down inside yourself and decide you have had enough and confront it (or them) and assert yourself. It's more than just asserting yourself. It's taking back the authority, voice, status, position etc etc...that you don't have. That's the hard part if you don't have the skills in the first place.
Also....if you think about this from another angle....the people who are being taken advantage by this have only something to gain here.....the people who are in the advantaged position by it....will only have something to lose. This is the 0 sum game in action. The game is already being played and the person in the higher place only sees stepping down as losing what they already have. This will not go over well with them I assure you! You have to gets some guts and pull it together to go up against the powers that be....but as Liz already stated.....from a meeker less assertive place that is an easy target for a person/people who are use to this....you are at a very distinct disadvantage if you aren't comfortable being competitive and being assertive in this way.
I can tell you from my own experience even after years of doing things to acquired some of these skills that I didn't start out having.....when I first went into business for myself....the most difficult aspect for me that I had to learn how to deal with is being assertive in confrontational situations and not backing down even when I new i was right and someone in front of me was exerting more authority than I was in the moment and was more skilled than me. It took some time and practice but I eventually learned how to do this over time much better than I was even though to this day.....I am very uncomfortable being like this and will generally avoid it instead of going head on into it even to this day.
It seems however....that some people just do this intuitively and it doesn't bother them a bit to be confrontational and rather over bearing and very assertive. It just seems to be easy and natural for them. I for one....am not one of these people even though....I have learned how to do this and in certain areas of expertise....can do it very well if I have to.
You can learn is all I'm saying but you have to start somewhere? If you can start by asserting yourself in small ways over time....you will build this skill and other people will also gradually get us to you doing it. If it comes out all at once in frustration and anger it's just a fight at that point. That comes from not being comfortable doing it and letting it build up until it's already too late and then is just explodes like a dam bursting. That's just the sign that your not very good at doing it.
This really is what you have to do to go up against this triangulation dynamic once it's already in place. As as Liz pointed out.....if you are going up against crazy and lower intelligence in that respect.....assertion may have to become brute force to overcome with individuals of that nature. You probably aren't going to get anywhere with people who only understand "might is right" as their only way of dealing with conflict and confrontation. In that case....just trying to stay out of harms way is probably the only option.
I'm picturing (a real life incident)....where I was walking down our city street one time and a guy was standing in the middle of an intersection with cars honking at him while he was yelling and cursing at a building with no window so there was no one there that he could possibly be yelling at. As I got closer....he suddenly turned and looked right at me. oh no! I quickly moved to the other side of the street and didn't make eye contact except for just one moment to see if he was still looking at me. He was....and he was watching every move I made until I was far enough out of his range to apparently be a threat to him.
whew! don't engage crazy street people....it will only be asking for trouble! Outside of this kind of extreme however.....somewhere in the middle is where most of us can take advantage of learning how to assert yourself and regain the power you have in your voice to say to someone who may be taking advantage of their status or authority over you to tell them that what they are doing is unacceptable and they must respect your boundaries whether they like it or not.
I think this can involve 1, 2, 5 or 10 people if you do this right....but you must predict and expect resistance and you will need to assert yourself in order to get past it....the courage to do so is really what you need. The results are always good on your end to do it. If you are already down.....there is only one direction you can go and that is up. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain by at least trying and learning how even if it takes a few tries to get there.
Lose the battle and win the war I always say:)
J
LL.. a Passing Thought
Submitted by kellyj on
Some things you said are troubling to me. Not that there is anything wrong with what you said...but some things that came to mind about triangulation. I think it really is a symptom of a much bigger problem. The troubling part of what you said is that you feel powerless....it occurred to me that what might make you feel this way is the dynamic or triangulation itself. I haven't thought this through entirely but here are some word associations that you mentioned in your comments. I'm offering this as some possible clues?
commitment is what you want and you have yourself.
lack of commitment is what happens when nobody will commit to saying anything and leaving it up to just one person to do this for them. No body ever said that you are not allowed to say anything....but you end up doing this anyway out of fear of what might happen. I remembered how often my mother would say..."we just won't say anything to ( ) it might hurt their feelings."
First off.....who's this we? Your the one who's doing all the talking for the both of us?
Second....so what if some ones feelings might get hurt if your the one who always ends up with hurt feelings? See what I mean? In order to protect one persons feelings......you have to give up yours? No! That's just wrong. You have a right to feel the way you do and you should be able to go to that person directly and say so. If it's something that needs to said and your the one who's being hurt. You have every right to say so even if they don't like it or their feelings get hurt by saying so? You also get the opportunity to rebut, refute, and compromise and come to an agreement over any differences you might have with them. This is the normal human process is it not?
Third.....if you're pleaser by nature....you are volunteering to give up your right to not to say something and you aren't committing yourself. If no one commits and allows or volunteers to just let one person or someone else do the talking for you even if they do this without asking you first or you walked into a situation where this is going on already....by default.....the hidden rules of the house start applying to you and suddenly your feelings get thrown into a pile with everyone else and the one who's been elected (either by default or taking it on themselves by self election) doing the talking is also deciding for you who gets what and when and which person gets to be first in line?
Fourth and foremost.....these kinds of dynamics can take a life of there own. The person who steps out and breaks these hidden rules is the one who gets the blame. Everyone is so use to this as being "the way we do things"...that anything outside of this one unhealthy way is viewed as a threat to the very dynamic itself. In order not to make waves and not be the bad person....the power of many sometimes overrides the power of the few even if it's wrong? I think that's the fear of commitment right there. I think these things just happen sometimes which means there is a problem somewhere else to begin with....but, you are NOT powerless to do anything about it but it will take some courage to do so.
I think it may feel like a mess to unravel....but the person doing the talking is usually the source of the dynamic itself that keeps it alive. This is the person you need to be talking to. Instead of wishing you could get away and move from it as your only course of action ( divorce, moving away and running from it)........
Stand up! Commit and walk through that door and say something. Not to the group and not to try and fight everyone all at once with the intention of trying to go up against this entrenched way of doing business....
Just the one who's doing the talking. And say to them " I'll do my own talking for myself .....Thank you very much." If they disrespect you. You have the right to tell them so and keep repeating this to them until they stop. No one has the right to speak for you and represent you unless you let them.
In every respect of the word.....you have the power to do this and what comes from it will be the respect from the other person when you do. Saying....the rest of the group may not like it.....but you just bought your power back and they will have to abide by it since it's not something that anyone can argue with. It will cause waves and it will end up with some confrontation undoubtedly.....but you will end up having the power that was taken from you by the dynamic and it will benefit only you in this case to step outside of the dynamic and stay that way.
You don't need to run from it to do this. All you need is the courage to do so. I hope that doesn't sound harsh but I think this is truly the only option you have and again....the end result will be the respect that everyone should have and deserves and you will no longer be powerless.
Freedom of speech....one of the fundamental tenets of human rights.
J
PS Everyone is so use to this as being "the way we do things"....... and remind me?...... who's this "we" again? I'm tempted....but I won't say it! lol I will say however.....there is no "I" in the word team.
Stirs up some things to think about for Liz
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Wow. It takes a lot of skill and practice to get to the point where a person can stand up for themselves.
I am seriously transported back to some distinct disagreements I had within the family into which I married. I remember they dynamic of power that happened at my in-laws. Mom and Dad were the ultimate controllers of how you felt about any given person or subject. You were TOLD. Period. He was 40 and she was 27 when they married. Since the birth of their final and 7th child in 10 years, their marriage died. Thy stayed together becasue they were Catholic. Bless my Mother-in-Law, she whole heartedly believed that when she prayed for a spouse, the man she said yes to was the one God had sent her, and who was she to doubt God. I do not doubt God. I just wonder if maybe she was not listening too well?!?!?!?!?
Mom didn't talk to Dad, Dad didn't talk to Mom, and all seven children were stuck running messages between their parents. And the battle lines were drawn - where you for Mom, or for Dad? And was it real allegiance, or just pretend - for Mom when Mom is present, and for Dad when Dad is present. No wonder those 7 siblings do not get along now that both parents are deceased. Nor trust one another. Well, MOM said. . . . . . .Well, DAD said. . . . . . . . . . Hushed tones. It was not just a purple elephant in that house, it was a whole damn herd.
I remember the first try I had to communicate in that messed up situation - I said I did not like being treated like a child. What I got in return was a tongue lashing, "As long as you keep acting like child, you'll get treated like one." LOL. Sheesh. Was not prepared to get stomped. I have often said, what good is all my emotional healing, and learning to communicate in healthy ways, when I have no one with whom to have those healthy conversations?!?!?!?!?!?
So, back to my other bit of wisdom: do not argue with idiots. they pull you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
I want to visit with someone who wants just as much to be with me, and is willing to take steps to come to a mutual agreement and understanding.
Their family dynamics is this: If I say I am wrong/made-a-mistake/oops, then that will mean you are right. And you are NOT right. And I am NOT wrong. There is no room to agree to disagree. Someone has to be right, and make sure the other person knows they are wrong.
There was not the desire there to learn better skills, just to get me to see the error of my ways.
No thanks.
Very Truly,
Liz
Do not argue with idiots......
Submitted by kellyj on
..... they pull you down to their level, and beat you with experience. Mark Twain
As far as famous quotes goes.....this is also one of my personal favorites! lol Gotta love Samuel Clemens...... I hear what your saying:)
J
Hey! Mark Twain :)
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
Never bothered to look up who I should have credited with that bit of wisdom!! Now I know.
It is true, I do learn something valuable every single day of my life.
Very Truly,
Liz
Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
Never bothered to look up who I should have credited with that bit of wisdom!! Now I know.
Nah......no "should have" involved here on your end. This all on me...... I have ADHD.......remembering trivia is what I do. In fact.....I can't help it....it just goes with the territory! Sorry for being annoying.....I specialize in it! lol
In light of this however..... a word to the wise .....never play Trivial Pursuit with someone who has ADHD for money!! lol $$$$$
J
Huzzah!
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I believe you are correct on the Trivia Pursuit info. Our son is the positive side to my story of living with ADHD in my home. He is 26, knew about his ADHD since early elementary school, and he just. . . .well HE IS!! Understands his strengths, and understands the areas where he does not do so well, and asks for help.
I help him keep track of his finances. . . .only after I knew he COULD do them, just not his strong suite. He is appreciative. Thanks me.
Yes, he misplaces stuff. Yes, he believes everything should be out on the counters and table tops and microwave tops. . . . . .readily accessible to him - - - it drives me nuts. He will, when I press the issue, put stuff away.
Back to my point, this young man is very bright. He has so much information in his head. . . . .bits an pieces of odd stuff. Trivia for sure. He also is very good with word games, Boggle, Scattergories, Scrabble. You couldn't guess it at first glance. He sits, deep contemplation, and then he will toss in a bit to a conversation. . . . .that I didn't even realize he was keeping track of in his mind, along with keeping track of the TV show he is watching, and along with having conversations with others on his I-Phone FaceBook app.
My spouse worries our son will grow to be angry and bitter in his older ages, "just like his Dad." I do not choose to project our lives onto our son. He is AWARE of how his brain works - which is just not the same as most people. And, he is also in 98 percentile in his intelligence, so he has 2 different aspects of how his brain works that really sets him apart for most of us.
I am choosing to believe that with our encouragement, our acceptance, our gentle nudging to stretch out yet stay where he finds comfort, and also letting him know that he IS good enough, he IS a special gift to our world - and me - all these positive influences will lead to a different outcome in his late 50s. He learned boundaries. He gives only when he has extra time, and he gives freely without expecting he will get anything in return.
I do not wonder anymore why spouse is stuck where he is. I clearly see, "Why would he not be there?" As for Liz, I believe his past is his past. That is where I see him as being stuck. He CAN choose to make attitude adjustments. He CAN choose to work on conflict resolution. He CAN find self-esteem. 'WILL he' is the real question. I hope he does. I hope he decides he is worth it.
I can encourage and add to his self-esteem. I cannot - even though I thought at one time I could - GIVE him self-esteem.
Very Truly,
Liz
Liz You Are Right On Here
Submitted by kellyj on
I do the same thing as your son to the letter. Now he just needs to learn how to take all that great information and put it together in useful ways! And yes....self esteem is the key component. I think your son will be just fine in the end with a little help here and there.
Getting the self esteem that your son has for your H is a different story. He has to do that all on his own unfortunately....you can only help by doing some things or not doing others but it won't give him what he needs. You can't do this for another person.
Quick story in what I just recently observed. My wife has a female friend with ADHD and we are very much alike in the most predictable ways except....she does not seem to struggle with anger or getting upset too easily. She not easily offended or does not take accepting to a lot of things. The emotional liability or emotionality problem seems to be almost non existent with her. I asked her about this directly and what she immediately said was that growing up with a father who had ADHD...he recognized it early when she was very little and she began doing things differently quite early on. But the main reason she said for this was because she was completely accepted by her family and even with friends in school. She was good in sports (still plays in softball leagues to this day) which immediately put her in a class apart from many other girls her age growing up. Having ADHD and bouncing off the walls and just being a little scattered didn't seem to pose a problem for her and she just flowed right through school and social setting without a hitch. As she put it " being a girl and being more spastic in general didn't seem to raise any eyebrows and the expectations of me just simply were not there to be other than that. No one cared and no one seemed to even be paying attention or notice this about me and even it they did....people just seemed indifferent or just shrugged it off?"
Apparently....she did not face any adversities that he had to deal with and never had any real negative consequences or expectations to be other than who she was. Comparing the two of us......this is the only distinct difference between the two of us which had to do with our own individual life experiences. Other than that....we are extremely alike in many ways?
These experiences are the things that come in to play with self esteem. Avoiding them on the negative side with your son I think will make all the difference in the world the same as just it sounds with my wife friend.
She did say however one thing in jest....."yeah....when I talk too much it can be overwhelming to my husband sometimes....he just yells at me and I stop." lol I get that this works for the two of them apparently but to say.....this does not seem to bother her all that much and she doesn't react or is affected by it all that much. I didn't ask her husband how he felt about this but what I got in context to what she was saying.....this seemed to be the worst of it between the two of them. lol
J
Hi J....
Submitted by c ur self on
I was just reading your comments to Liz, I've learned so much over the past couple of years about add/adhd and it's effects...One of the biggest problems for many on this site, and myself (I'm starting to figure it out a little bit) included is separating what is add/adhd and what is something else...
Many people (couples) live normal lives where adhd is present. When self-awareness is present instead of denial it can work out w/o all the negative emotions and drama.
My youngest daughter was diagnosed w/ mild to moderate adhd...(and like your wife's friend was saying about her husband) when your in conversation with her or on the phone with her basically your just listening:) I watched her husband just yell her name to break in when she is on a roll. She can add "wait a minute" mid sentence faster than the speed of light if you attempt to break in to her details...LOL...
I never knew until recently that my Son in Law that is married to my oldest daughter has adhd...I guess I've just never noticed because he is such a wonderful person who handles his emotions so well. In 11 years I've never seen him upset unless it was just mild frustration w/ himself for something he felt he should have done better or differently.
I was hanging out w/ my daughter a few days ago and asked her what his major symptoms were...She said he gets distracted easy at times, and forgets things, and he leaves the cabinet doors and drawers open....She said he will go into the kitchen and clean it up and when he thinks he is done, he has left every dish he washed on top of the cabinets...Finishing to completion is very hard for my wife also, I guess it's common with adhd...
I always just smile when I hear the details of others who have adhd because there is so much commonality with the effects and even the personalities, likes and dislikes...My wife played Softball until she was in her fifties and her bad knee wouldn't let her continue....It was her team and she managed it well....:)
C
I agree!!!
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C,
"One of the biggest problems for many on this site, and myself (I'm starting to figure it out a little bit) included is separating what is add/adhd and what is something else..." Gosh, this is just so very true for me.
It has taken me quite a bit of time to start to unravel my own situation.
Stepping away from the focus on specifically ADHD for a minute, here is a bit of my own history: I have always had a great curiosity about human behavior , especially in the area of the development of odd behavior patterns. For Liz, I clearly remember, and actually still have, a Newsweek article I just happened across in the very early 80s. It was about the "Binge-Purge Syndrome." My eyes were riveted to that article. WHAT?!?!?!? Wait, other people do this too? I really thought I had some sort of freaky mental anomaly with "My Weird Diet." I cannot explain how very odd I felt to discover I was NOT the only person on the face of the earth who did this. For Liz, this was not something I started doing because it was copycat learned behavior that was glorified on TV or in magazines. I really truly though I was THE ONLY person with a weird shameful secret. I still do not understand how eating developed into such a strange pattern. Not just for me, but for countless other people. Back in those days Bulimia was also referred to as The Slim-Overeaters Disease.
OK, now back to ADHD, I have found it equally amazing when I discovered and started to participate in this Forum, because I can see a distinct pattern that happens when undiagnosed ADHD is part of a marriage. It can be no coincidence that I have several Forum Friends who have experienced the same pattern in their marriage as I have.
Just that gives me some bit of hope. Again, it is nice to know I am not the only person on the face of the earth with these difficult marriage patterns. Alas, I have yet to find a specific set of directions to make my own relationship work. I do not see a distinct pattern in how to turn it all around.
At a minimum, what I have gained and learned here is how to separate things into many categories:
1. What happens when someone grows up in household where there is not 2 loving parents, only a Catholic commitment that welded the parents together for eternity.
2. What happens when you grow up with harsh criticism
2. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - the basic differences between men's and women's thinking
3. What happens when you grow up in an alcoholic home
4. ADHD
So, it is true that there are common things that happen in houses with ADHD. Key/wallets/cellies are lost/misplaced with greater frequency frequently. Time blindness has an uncomfortable effect on events. The lack of -or at least major resistance to - a family daily routine. Disorganization. Rabbit tracking from project to project. Unfinished projects. Chronic lateness. Trouble focusing. Procrastination. Forgetfulness. And these things happen to almost everyone at some time or another. It is when they are ALL chronic and disruptive that a problem exists.
Controlling with anger, denial, rudeness, refusal to take responsibility for actions, stubbornness, inability and refusal to shift to another plan of action when the one that you are on is clearly not working . . . . . . . . those are something else.
Very Truly,
Liz
I've Been Doing the Same Thing Liz and C
Submitted by kellyj on
I've been doing the same thing for myself for a while now. I think I've come to some conclusions to help answer part of this mystery. It may not be any surprise.... but I think you may not automatically arrive at this conclusion based on the things that have already been mentioned. My personal take on myself might help give you some clues about the person you are with. I remember the one thing that sticks in my mind and when I heard it I went...."thank you...this says a lot right there!".
Which came from the movie "Living with ADHD"...one of the researchers/MD's said..."show me a child with ADHD...and I will show you ONE child with ADHD" This quote says exactly what I have come up with myself. I just don't fit nicely into any simple easy package and my ADHD and how it affects me appears anywhere from exactly as described to nothing like it is described. This does not give you any help I understand. It makes it even more confusing to me since...I'm the one who has it?
Here's what I don't have in the list of things you mentioned at least for a start.
-refusal to take responsibility for my actions......I cannot see this as a problem for me now or in the past any more or less than on average and possibly slightly more responsible than on average if I had to be honest about myself. Of course when I was growing up....I flunked at times in this department...but no more than anyone else I came into contact with.
-rudeness.......NO I may curse like a sailor at times and make wise crack jokes that are not always appreciated. But I was raised in a household where manners and politesse were not optional. That includes social etiquette and grace to the point that I do this without thinking about it and don't give it a second thought. You name it...I do it. Holding doors, please and thank you, allowing others to go first, extending my best foot forward with strangers and in public. I'm not loud or draw attention to myself and I certainly pay respect to other's personal space and boundaries when they are brought to my attention. I could go on and on here.
Controlling anger? This is a tough one for me to compare myself too. I don't have anger issues in the sense of chronic anger management problems. If that's the criteria...the answer is no. In extreme moments where you might find yourself losing your cool.....that's when it changes into something that I find as unacceptable as you would. This is what brought me here in the first place....to discover what this was? It's not everyday anger or irritation and it does not happen unless the right combination of things come together. It's extremely rare. I could probably count the times that this has happened in my entire lifetime and I wouldn't be that far from being accurate....that' how rare this is. I am also extremely aware of these moments and remember them quite well. There is one common theme with these incidences however......being attacked in one form or another. They only come at times of aggression by another person. I am never the aggressor and or the antagonist as far as just going off on someone without lots of fair warning and lost of chances for the aggressor to back away and stop whatever they are doing.
In the last 2 decades....I can only recall this happening 4 times. Two of these happened with my wife and the second time it happened I came here to find out why? Otherwise.....I avoid rather than fight. I'm a flight animal and have always been that way.
What you said here.... So, it is true that there are common things that happen in houses with ADHD. Key/wallets/cellies are lost/misplaced with greater frequency frequently. Time blindness has an uncomfortable effect on events. The lack of -or at least major resistance to - a family daily routine. Disorganization. Rabbit tracking from project to project. Unfinished projects. Chronic lateness. Trouble focusing. Procrastination. Forgetfulness. And these things happen to almost everyone at some time or another. It is when they are ALL chronic and disruptive that a problem exists.
All the above are true in every sense of the word including what you said about "almost everyone at some time or another does these things."
How this plays out for me boils down to one common denominator.....stress and anxiety. Without anxiety first...or stressful times in my life....I am as normal and as anyone else just as mentioned. Occasional normal stuff. I have gone for long periods of years even without any chronic problematic issues in these areas except for just a couple of these......disorganization, time blindness and switching gears. These are chronic problems for me and always have been yet....
I have never lost my keys and not been able to find them ever in my lifetime. Not even once.
I have never lost my wallet or money or anything out of my pockets except one time when I left my wallet and $300 in a public rest stop while driving all night on the interstate and set it down when I went to wash my hands after driving for many hours without much sleep. It was returned intact with all the money in it by a very honest person who came there shortly after I left
I start many project and have them going at the same time so I can say I do rabbit track as you called it but it's a little different than that for me? When I start to lose momentum on one thing and find that I'm dragging on it....I will jump to something new to peak my interest and get my momentum back...but I will return to every project I start and complete them in time. I would say I rotate them until the are finished and that is a fair statement. Rather than rabbit track and never finishing them because I always finish what I start even if it kills me to do so. The problem that I have run into is getting spread too thin and have too many at once. If I can keep the number down....I find that this works well in actually getting more done faster than doing them one at a time...grouping like projects and operations together in an assembly line process bring them all together and completing them roughly at the same time. Ergonomically and efficiency speaking ( for money especially ) this is the only way to go. One at at time is the fastest way to go broke in my opinion...if you are trying to get the most things done in the shortest period of time.
When it becomes a problem when I over do and there is too much stress...... when this happens..... that is when this will turn momentum into procrastination. There is fine line to this and I have found that staying just side of the line is dependent again on just one thing......stress and anxiety.
But there is a big problem here that I am now working on overcoming. Within this way of getting things done and completing them...the last thing I would do historically is clean up with all is said and done. I never learned to clean as I go but I always cleaned up afterwards. This is my normal rhythm. Do ten things in a group, rotate between them to keep myself at the highest output level and then finish them together in a group....and when that group is complete....I clean up and put everything away to perfection....and then start over again. Living alone or by myself....this works great. Not so with other people and especially not with the women I have lived with. That's the problem. My male room mates when I was younger had no issues with this but none of them were what I would say super anal and tidy anyway but it always went in cycles like this.
Changing out of this rhythm and trying to do this another way and clean as I go I have found to be such a struggle that the stress and anxiety about trying to change from my old pattern only exacerbates the problem and slows me down even more. I feel like I'm dragging a dog sled loaded with cement bags around with me everyone where I go and everything seems much more difficult to do and I get less done as a result of this. One at a time is such a foreign concept for me to do and it is the hardest thing I have ever attempted to overcome. I have been out of my rhythm for so long now....I don't know what it is like to feels like to be productive anymore?
But the house is clean and my wife is happy......I'm just trying to find that myself and be happy with living with this feeling of being out of sync and being happy at the same time? I struggle with some low grade depression from not getting things done as quickly as I use to but the price is a cleaner house with less clutter. It's getting better but the progress is slow. This is the part that my wife cannot understand? Why is less getting done than before just to simply stay cleaner and tidier on a daily basis along the way? Instead of .... getting more done and being inconsistent on a daily basis and being cyclical over a longer period of time going from clean to dirty and cluttered....clean to dirty and cluttered. This has always been the case with me in the past....but I always follow through and finish and use to get mountains of things done. Not so much any more but I am fighting my way to find a different balance and still get the same quantity of output done at the same time. I have yet to find this balance?
There is a method to the madness on my end and if you stand back and look at it....it is a routine. It's just not on a daily time table and more on a weekly or even monthly one depending on the number of projects the amount I want to get done. The more I work on at once....the more I accomplish in one cycle but the cycle itself will get longer as I add things to it. Normally....I tend to project what I do on a monthly time table....start to finish one cycle in one months time. But by adding half again as much to the project load and adding only a week to the cycle....I can usually manage to complete this entire group in even less time by doing it this way.
Rotating keeps it interesting and therefore keeps me in the peak of my output performance. This is really just line production strategy that is used in countless industries like automotive and aeronautic factories. When I first went to college and started taking classes in production analysis....I discovered that I had been doing this naturally on my own ever since I can remember (even as a kid ) I found my niche in other words and I fell right into this kind of study.
This however....has no impact or bearing on how the women in my life felt about this. It seems the only conflict that I have in doing things this way but...I have to compromise myself now if I want to blend productivity with livability? It's a struggle and I am working hard to find the rhythm that appears to have gone AWOL?
The rest of it I can sum up easily. Without stress or anxiety there to plague me....I'm unstoppable! And nearly all aside from what I just said seems to completely disappear entirely until I find myself in a place where I can't manage my stress.
To say this another way.....no stress....no ADHD. It's that simple.
J
One thing at a time:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I got paid well to manage several things at the same time....Now that I'm retired, I get several things going at once for the fun of it....Laundry, cooking, cleaning, watching MLB channel, throw in feed the cat and check the mail, and read a post or two....If my wife isn't around to distract me I usually knock it all out to completion in record time:)
My wife use to think it's so cool that I can cook a five course meal and it all gets done at the same time...I didn't have the heart to tell most people can...I use to hurt her feelings (not intentionally, just ignorantly thought I could help:) about starting something that takes 15 minutes at the same time she started the 45 minutes items....All it got me was my own apron...LOL...
Beside's when she cooks we never get to eat together anyway...She is always full by the time it's done...LOL...
Cooking and Cleaning
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm glad you reminded me of this. In this one area of exception......I cook and clean as I go. I like to cook and I've been doing it since I was little. Even as far back as I can remember....I use to like to feed myself and not have rely of someone else to cook my food for me. It comes from not wanting to have to rely on someone else for these things. I'm picturing myself (as as a really little kid )....standing on the kitchen counters to get my cereal and bowl out of the cupboards by pulling the drawers out on the lower cabinets and using them for steps to get on top of the counter! I was a natural born climber! lol No such thing as keeping things out of my reach....where theres a will....theres a way! lol My mother hated it in fear I would fall (never did)....and my father would yell at me..."your going to ruin the drawers!" ha ha!
Oh! Another flashback. My mother told me that shopping was difficult with me even at a very young age. She said she had to make sure the cart (with me in it)...was always in the middle of the aisle because the second she got close enough for me to touch anything....I pulled everything off the shelves! lol Things that are shiny? I think so:)
Anyway....now thinking about what you just said....for what ever reason....cooking for me is more like one project start to finish even though it's a lot of steps in between. I like you can get everything to come together at once and serve it all hot to the table at the same time and still manage to clean as I go when you are waiting for something else to finish. When alls said and done....it all comes together at the same time like I was saying.
In this one case....each step is like a mini project (using my tried and true formula).... I clean up after a step when I am done....but I have other steps going at the same time. This is a perfect example C :) I so in to efficiency and ergonomics that this falls right into line with what I was saying. The most efficient way to cook is to clean as you go so at the end when the food is ready....it's mostly clean aside from a few pots and pans. This is the exact same thing I do in my work?
The problem is.....I can cook a full meal from scratch in an hour or less at times and sit down and eat and relax and don't have much to do afterwards. I use to wait until the morning to finish up with dishes and such in the aftermath. Sometimes it wouldn't get done until the next evening when I would cook again but it wasn't a huge mess to clean...just the dinner dishes and utensils? (I also don't leave drawers and cupboard doors open as a chronic problem but.....I do when I'm in the middle of cooking before I am done while I'm working. Yes...most definitely....I have to see what I working with. But when I'm finished cooking and putting things away....the doors and cabinet doors all get closed and returned as they were....just not while I'm cooking. This is the same thing I was saying.....clean up, put things away, close drawers, load dishwasher etc......when your all done and finished.....not so much while I'm doing it aside for anything that will slow me down in the cooking process itself.
C...this is such a perfect case in point. Thank you for bringing this up so I can use it to illustrate my pattern so well. I think in terms of doing things in the most efficient way possible with the goal being getting the most done in the shortest period of time. If your going to bake a cake.....you've got to break a few eggs right? If cleaning fits into this model and is necessary for speed and efficiency...then cleaning becomes a requirement and is just part of the operation part.....but only in those instances. Cleaning and staying clean is not the goal.....efficiency and production is. Work smarter not harder. Do less and get more done. That's the model at least.....it's not the underlying thing that drives me to be this way but by default.....it fits into this model and work well in respect to the model itself. In respect to my wife however....it is disrespectful of her wishes to continue doing this. I'm so good at the one way....and I'm nearly incapacitated doing it the other way.
This is where my ADHD fits perfectly in what people want and gets approval of by anyone who is paying you to do things for them when it comes to productivity and finishing projects. This IS how I complete projects and get thing done so they don't linger and never get completed!!!!!
At the end of the project.....then you clean up. If clean up takes a couple of days but doesn't slow down progress....it's just the last step but it's not the goal in this kind of thinking. Staying clean and tidy is simply not the goal here....end of story.
But if the goal is to be clean and stay that way....now the emphasis shifts. If that's the goal....then I am as good at cleaning and staying tidy as anyone else and I get it done faster because I use the same criteria to do it....efficiency and ergonomics ( less steps....more things get cleaned and done with more accuracy)
But......everything else doesn't get done as fast. Once cleaning and staying clean becomes the main focus....productivity and output suffers tremendously! If you have to stop the entire production line and shut down to clean up the floor just so it doesn't look bad and for no other reason....the entire assembly line completely stops! No products are rolling off the line....no money is coming in to capitalize production....customers are not getting their goods on time...you lose credibility will vendors since you can't pay them for materials....the entire plant shuts down and goes dormant all in the name of cleanliness for no other reason?
This is my problem?? Cleaning just for cleaning sake at the expense of everything else? It makes no sense other than just to be clean as your goal? How can you bake that cake and not break the eggs? If making things ( manufacturing ) is your lively hood and this is your niche in life and you do it very well.....then productivity is the difference between making money or not making money. All for the sake of staying clean? Why?
I'm poor....but I'm clean!! I don't get it???? That's not something to be proud of in my mind?
I would rather have a nice comfortable life with enough things to make life interesting without being rich......but poor and clean is not a concept that I think I can ever get use to??
But then again.....all my arguments come from my inability to do both at the same time. I am supporting my dysfunction with the agreements to back it. I will say however.....that most people I come across who do the same kind of work that I do....are also like this too. It's rare to see a clean room type environment....with a person who works for themselves and manufactures products especially at home. This the part that my wife and I have fought about endlessly. She wants it all and can't understand why she cant have it? But she has never tired to make anything in her life. She does not create things from nothing and sell them for money and has never had the experience to understand just why she can't have both things at once.
All she does (or has done in her life historically) is clean and keep it clean. In other words....she maintains the clean house. I mess it up...clean up afterwards....and have to maintain it now at the same time!
That's a shit load of more things to do than just maintain a clean house!!!! lol But seriously and most damaging for me.....in order to do this....the amount of extra effort and work I have to do is exhausting to maintain and work at the same time and I make less money on top of it. A lot less money!!! It's very depressing:(
J
cooking and cleaning
Submitted by c ur self on
Reading your detailed post brought some thoughts to my mind...When I look back over the past 8 years...Much of my frustration basically came about trying to please my wife or shall I say giving in or at the least felling like I had to battle her continuous desire to control...
Example: I had no sister's and Mom raised the three of us boys...So cooking and cleaning was just part of life....Work in general wasn't a chore really I've always viewed it as it has to be done so why not knock it out quickly and efficiently so I can do something I really enjoy...
A simple example of how different we were/are and how conflict use to get the best of a day is:...Say we had the grown kids over for a meal and everything is going well...We all set down and eat and visit....Now here is where the trouble came....
I know that I'm the one who is going to have to clean up, So I would start clearing off the dishes, loading the dishwasher and doing the pots and pans etc..(table is right there close so I can stay engaged in conversation) Up until the last year or two she would (like the cat and furniture) start making statements to me to set down and visit and let the work go. Yes, I could do that, but, I would eventually have to do all the work in most cases. So I would tell her I'm going to get started on what had to be done so I could set down and enjoy the kids. And not be left with a huge mess when I'm tired and read for bed....But, the trouble came when no answer was good enough or respected.. She kept on in most cases...And that really just aggravated me because she wanted to make me out to be wrong and I was thinking all along you should have your butt up here helping....But, in saying this, I will add it's gotten better...Why? Well in reality the reason she kept on in the past was her own guilt...So now she will get up and help or she just accepts that I'm being constructive and the negative comments have gone away in most cases....When I look back on it I could have handled it so much better by saying nothing....It works so well. Because when your living responsibly you don't have to defend it....Any time someone tries to insert their will on someone else it's always better to walk away....I sure wish I would have figured this out way before now....My Pride wouldn't allow it, still don't many days...
I love that J....
Submitted by c ur self on
Got to remember that....I heard a good one....Although I can't us it, without lying....I man told someone " Oh I never give advice; A wise man doesn't need it and a fool want take it".
C
Yep....I Hear You C
Submitted by kellyj on
I will share on recent discovery that I think can help explain this one too? In a recent confrontation about something that my wife and I seemed to miss each other entirely in and I now realized at least why? I verbal process and arrive at a solution. She internal processes and then comes to conclusions.
Solutions.....and conclusions? When I offer solutions....I'm not giving advise. When someone does this with me for the same reason....i find it helpful and is exactly what I want....I can pick and choose which solutions (out of many) I think will work best? I don't see this process as them giving me advise because if I'm giving advise....then I'm telling, directing, managing or demanding them what to do what I say. Telling not offering ideas to pick from? I only see them as helping me come up with more options to choose from? I make my own conclusions from there and arrive at them on my own.
When she comes to me when she is unsure what to do about something.....I offer as many solutions as I can for her to pick from. It's up to her what she does with it...she has to make the choice.....I'm not telling her what to do and I don't care many times which one she picks. I am just making sure she has as many to choose from as I can? This is what I want because this is how I get to the point of getting TO the conclusion and make a decision? When I come to her in the same way....this is what I want?
We discovered together.....that these two approaches are not compatible with one another. Whe she comes to me in the same instance as I would come to her....she wants something completely different. She wants to tell me a problem and not have me offer any help with it? As soon as I hear there's a problem or concern...it must be solved? If it were me....I would fret and ruminate until I had my answer? It's a tangible practical doing thing not a subjectively concept. My brain goes straight to problem solving mode and finding solutions. If I am not stuck myself in finding a solution to a problem....I have no need to tell anyone anything. I do that on my own without any help and I don't feel the need to share. Why? If you know the answer to something.....why come to someone for a solution or for help?
That's the mind set talking...not my actual thought process just to illustrate the problem between our styles of processing.
My wife is different.....she internal processes and arrives at a conclusion....and then comes to me with concern or speculations as she tells me. I hear...concern and speculation....and that means there's a problem? For me....this is a problem like I said. I hate to worry. I don't like it and it causes me stress and anxiety. The fastest way to relive my stress is to arrive at an answer. When I have an answer....I stop worrying and feel better. This is exactly what I am offering and trying to do with my wife. Make her feel better and help her stop worrying. I'm not telling her to stop worrying....that's just stupid? Or giving advise? Saying....just do this and all will be fine....take my advise and don't question it? I'm offering the same as I would want so I can choose as quickly as possible and stop my ruminating. For me.....worrying stops with answers. Puzzles need to be solved and riddles need an answer? A problem needs a solution and having as many choices to choose from is helping from my approach? When someone does this with me.....this is how I see what they are trying to do and I appreciate it. It's the only reason I come to anyone with a problem....I want them to offer ideas and solutions to help me pick and come to conclusions. This is helping me in my mind? This is what I do and the reason why?
This recent discovery has already served us in helping us past troubling moments. We usually never disagree about the conclusions....but the process we both need to go through to arrive at them are completely incompatible and only create frustration and anger when we try and merge the two. All to finally arrive at the same conclusion and we are in total agreement with one another.
On my wife's side.....she has agreed to be careful about how she approaches me and how she presents things to me. Here are just a few of our new rules that we are making to overcome this incompatibility issue we have together.......
Rules for my wife.....
-don't ask questions if you don't want an answer. Avoid rhetoric and rhetorical questions....they still spark me into problem solving mode. She has a habit of posing questions verbally while she communicates (rhetorical questions) I know the difference and I almost never use them this way myself. If I do....it's poignant...and connected to the conversation. Hers appear as more like thinking out load...random thoughts posed verbally not requiring an answer. She does a lot of thinking out loud...like talking to yourself and talking to another person at the same time This isn't verbal processing in my mind or at least it's not how I do it....there's a difference. That's one problem point or trigger in miscommunication. I don't think out load or talk to myself much. If I do....I do it alone when I'm by myself.
-don't speak unless you have come to a conclusion. As she has said may times.....I don't want your help in knowing what to do....I just want to share? Since she internal ( silently processes ).....she will sometimes flip back and forth from verbal processing to internal processing. I can't follow her at all when she does this and she is trying to talk to me at the same time. This doesn't sound like sharing to me at all? It sounds like exactly what I do....verbal processing? She is combining the processing styles alternately and I am trying my best to determine which one is which as they go back and forth??? Very confusing for me?
I do this too but it's probably for a different reason. I know what I want to say...but I don't always know how to say it or have delays in getting to the point or meander. But the conclusion and what I want to say is there in my head already....I'm not still processing it. For her....this sounds the same as when she has not come to a conclusion yet? She starts down heading down the wrong road in our communication and I'm going..."wah the? where the hell are you going. Where did that come from?"
The new rules for Me are......
-listen and don't say anything. I can't stop my brain from problem solving and or wanting to verbal process even if she doesn't need my help or doesn't want this kind of input." That's the part I have little control over. What I do have control over is my mouth and what comes out of it. Even if her questioning, speculative style of communicating sparks my need to find answers and sounds like she is looking for one even when she's not....if I say nothing and just listen for no other reason than for her to share her concerns but not want help with getting to a solution.....all I need to do at the end of what she says is....."that's nice."..... "That sounds good"....... "That sucks"...."I'm sorry (not as apology but showing concern)"....."Is there anything I can do to help?"......
The funny thing about this is....If I say...."is there anything I can do to help?" The answer is always no? What is my function here? I am being factitious now but only to say.....this appears a strange concept to come to someone and speak just to see if they are willing to help but not want any help? Why speak in the first place?
All of this has nothing to do with empathy or being empathic or compassionate or an inability to show concern or just share thoughts with each other. It has everything to do with how we arrive at conclusions, how we process, and what we both need form each other when we come to each other for something. They are different things for different reasons and for me....my ADHD creates a different need on my end. The intention on both of our parts are the same....give the other person what they want and offer it freely to show that you care and are interested. With the best intentions on both sides. We both miss what the other person wants because of how our emotional and internal needs are different and how we get there together. That's all
It doesn't have to make sense and I don't have to understand. Only....I understand what she wants and then I just do it anyway. Every time she does this....I am full filling her needs. And when I do this right....my need to help her is also getting met. I just didn't understand before what this difference was to be able to do this in the first place. I do this already in other ways naturally anyway just like anyone else.....it's only when it comes to problems or confrontation and easy each other minds. If all I need to do this for her is to say..."that's interesting"....and nothing more. That's easy.
side note: when someone does this with me..."that's interesting?"...."is there anything i can do to help"....."that sucks"......"that's nice"...."cool"....And then that's all they would say....it kind of leaves me flat and feeling dismissed? If they offer a solution or offer the same thing i said in there own experience....that feels like sharing. Sharing ideas....sharing thoughts....sharing the same things that I am sharing. It's an exchange of information to learn from and connect with one another.
"cool"....as a response to a heart felt topic of interest sounds to me like.....your not interested in what I have to say or just not interested at all? To me this feels like the kind of sharing that kids do together when they have nothing else to say or have no comment at all or a way to express themselves any other way?
"Look at my new bike"......."cool" End of conversation? lol It's why I hate texting. It seems superfluous and for no other reason than to talk just for talking sake with no substance or topic at hand? "Hi"....."how are you"......."I am fine"......"good"....."me too"....."how are you?"....."I am fine"....."good"..... "that's good"....."yeah..that's good"......"cool"....."cool"....."bye"....."bye". I understand that it's the connection.....but it reads more like a first grade book when kids are first trying to read? lol sorry....it's just what it feels like??
Twiitter is even worse!! "I woke up this morning and pooped... it was a good one too. Then.....I went to the kitchen and made oatmeal. It was good but I think I added too muh water?" Really?? Does anyone think that they are that self important that anyone would care? I don't but to each his/her own. I guess plenth of people are difso. I don't get it??? lol
This was a great discovery. It tells me what to do. That's all I needed to know .....I can take the rest from there on my own and it tells us both...that we need to find the other areas of our communicating that are different to know the same thing and what to do each time? These rules just help to remind us of what not to do that was causing the problems before. I've found since we an do this......I'm catching on pretty fast.
The difference is just in what we need and how we need it. That's all you need to know....but until that happens, you can only go off of yourself and offer what you would need under the same circumstances. I think ADHD does require a more specific kind of thing from a specific kind of need from the norm or what is more normal for most other people and what you need from us. This isn't a lack of empathy or having to compromise.....it's a lack of understanding on both sides.
I can't tell you how many times I have walked away and felt like my needs have not been met. This is the norm even when I feel like I have met others needs and they appear that I have. If you ever wondered where your feelings of being unfulfilled come from.....I think this is a good place to start and look for how to do things different and how to approach this problem.
Is that advise or just pointing out the difference and letting you decide for yourself? At this point.....I still don't know?:) It's sooooooo confusing?????? lol
-J
This one is as slippery as an ell for a husband to grasp J...
Submitted by c ur self on
The new rules for Me are......
-listen and don't say anything. I can't stop my brain from problem solving and or wanting to verbal process even if she doesn't need my help or doesn't want this kind of input." That's the part I have little control over. What I do have control over is my mouth and what comes out of it. Even if her questioning, speculative style of communicating sparks my need to find answers and sounds like she is looking for one even when she's not....if I say nothing and just listen for no other reason than for her to share her concerns but not want help with getting to a solution.....all I need to do at the end of what she says is....."that's nice."..... "That sounds good"....... "That sucks"...."I'm sorry (not as apology but showing concern)"....."Is there anything I can do to help?"......
The funny thing about this is....If I say...."is there anything I can do to help?" The answer is always no? What is my function here? I am being factitious now but only to say.....this appears a strange concept to come to someone and speak just to see if they are willing to help but not want any help? Why speak in the first place?
If you haven't already saw it already, Google: "It's not about the nail video" ....Best lesson about the Mar's vs Venus description I've seen:) and brings much light to your above stated scenario...
C
A bit confused...
Submitted by LindaLou on
Hard to follow these threads. I can't find where I said everyone is so used to this as being the way we do things....so, I can't answer that one. As far as powerless, I was referring to powerless over the actions of others. I can't MAKE this relationship work. I can't MAKE my husband and step -children quit talking about me or quit sharing things that fuel the fire. I did text back my step-son that I thought his comments were disrespectful to me, that he couldn't come to my home without an apology and I thought his words were also disrespectful to my husband, who I thought might feel somewhat awkward to have his son talk about his wife that way. However, my husband is mad a me for intercepting his texts, for responding to his son, which I had no right to do, and I am the ONLY one in the wrong. Period. I have no desire to talk to his son about this issue. They like to continue to make me the perpetrator in the triangulation, making the kids the victim and my husband the rescuer. I don't have to have contact with anyone but my husband and will continue assessing my decision to be in this marriage or not. Right now, I have decided to stay, keep my side of the street clean and focus on doing things that make me happy. I will state what I need and wish and knowing I am powerless to make anyone do anything, do what I can to be the best me I can be.
So, I told my husband last night, we would have the gathering of the families. That his son's apology really would not be sincere, I know, according to my husband and his continued actions, he doesn't like me nor has he ever liked me, so I really didn't care about his apology. What I care most about is my marriage and I am going to continue to hope and dream of a time where he would tell his children they cannot talk to him about his wife disrespectfully, that instead they can bring concerns but they must be presented respectfully of the woman to whom he is married. They are quite emeshed and will continue the triangulation I have no doubt. So be it. I must let it go.
So the trick for me is to work on me. I will continue to do that with fervor and stop getting into fighting matches and power struggles. My husband's ADD will continue to be a BIG issue in this deal and I will seek help to cope with that, while working on me. Going to reach out to one of the referral's on this site for some assistance.
Thanks to all for the feedback! I will let you all know how it goes! Thank you.
Either your H has no filter or he doesn't mind hurting his kids
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I'm guessing it's the former.
My H has almost no filter and he'll blurt things out that are hurtful or awkward without any thought. I can still remember eating at a colleague's home on a Friday night, and the hostess apologizing that the meal was kind of "thrown together" (it was fine), and H replied with, "I could tell". He didn't say it in a rude voice, just matter of factly...totally clueless that it was a rude response.
Is your H telling his kids because he wants them to be mad at you? Or is he telling them without any thought of possible repercussion?
LL...My Intention Here is To Help
Submitted by kellyj on
And I also got from the tenor of your last comment that you are not sure how what I was saying applies to you.....or how it will do anything to help? But....it sounds as if you have decided on a course of action that will be best for you and you are going to follow through with it.
If you want some clarification to be less confusing....I can apply what I was saying directly to your situation and use what you said as a direct example to where I can see how you might change your approach. Specifically....based on how to get past this triangulation thing with your H. Another way to say this might be.....your H is the one who knows this dynamic only from his experience since he lives it with his side of the family. He is caught in the middle here even if he doesn't want to be.
The problem as I hear you is:
This is how his side of the family does things.....
but not how you do things or want it to be.
He is caught between two worlds that are not compatible even if he is aware of it which he is probably painfully aware of. There are two separate sets of rules that do not mix together....like oil and water.
He knows how they work....and he knows how you work and what you want but he has no power himself to control how THEY see things or how YOU see things either. And he has no power to make that dynamic stop unless he was the one to assert himself and make it stop which puts him in a very precarious position with them. I've been here....I know exactly where he is and what his options are. Like I said....I came from this kind of family dynamic.
It's HIM, THEM, and YOU. That's all you need for triangulation....a minimum of more than 2 different opinions. And he's the one in the middle.
You are part of this dynamic whether you realize this or not. It's not just THEM doing it even if you don't think you are or are part of it. You're not separate from it any time you try and merge the two together and it will happen every time you do. Keeping it separate would be one solution and you won't have to contend with it. Neither will your H.
He's stuck....and you are too with him when it comes to trying to do anything yourself about this. I get that much and I get that this is exactly where you are.
I won't keep going with this unless you want some suggestions based what I was saying and what you just said....but I get the impression that this is all you want for now and I do understand.
J
Welcome your continued feedback
Submitted by LindaLou on
Yes, please share more.
LL....This is What I See
Submitted by kellyj on
written in between the lines of what you described. There is a "discord" happening within the entire family as a whole. This may seem like it's a statement just saying the obvious.......of course there is or you wouldn't be here right? But within this discord.....I think is where you will find some clues that might give you some ideas of what you yourself might do to irradiate it or lesson the effect that it's having on the entire group as a whole.....specifically.....how you might change your approach or tack to the situation.
Immediately as I just said that.....I fear that you might not take what I said correctly or rather....take this last statement personally. Before I continue....I want to make sure that you are hearing what I say from an objective position and I know that this is a very difficult thing to do when you are feeling disrespected and that you have been wronged or treated poorly in some way. Without question from the sound of things.....that this IS happening with you and things have been done and said that could not be viewed any other way from where your perspective. The brief telling of the text message incident with your step son and your H is very telling including the fact that you feel he doesn't like you and never has. There is absolutely no way I can give you any feedback to the specifics of relationship with any of your family members and most anything I could say one way or the other would be purely speculative. I think this is true for anyone here and any input that they might give you.
Everyone ......except one person who has responded to you in this thread and that is Melissa Orlov. She has no ability to do what I said in giving specific advise to you than anyone else and it would be even more important to her credibility to be careful of what she says and not say something that would be bad advise.....but within what she offered you was a compromise. If you are unwilling to compromise what so ever in what you want for yourself.....you will end up with nothing. Nothing will change....nothing will be different....and you will be right where you are and stay that way. That is the equivalent to getting nothing or 0 in getting anything new or having your situation change. If you yourself become and unmovable object that stands in the way or progress....you're just a fixture, and everyone else has to move or change to accommodate you...like a rock or bolder that is so heavy that no one can move it and there you(it) sits day after day....deteriorating and eroding in the sun and weather for eternity but it never moves from that place unless some changes either....it changes or something comes along like a natural catastrophe ie: a great flood or a volcanic eruption that has a force that is greater than you.....the rock.......saying this in a metaphorical sense.
Using this analogy.....I think it warrants some further examination on your part? You can only change yourself.....trying to change your H, or your step son in just this one example is like trying to become that flood or volcanic eruption or possibly, even in a positive sense.....they adapt and become more like water themselves to flow around you....but this does not mean in that sense....that there is any resolution on your part. If your still the rock or if you don't move or compromise....everyone else is moving around you but your still right where you are and remain there.
Taking this a step further and using what I was saying about triangulation being a symptom of a bigger problem.....what I see are a bunch of rocks and your H trying (possibly his best) to move them around and being the go between for everyone while he still remains a rock himself. He's not doing anything different either...he just trying to fill in the space or vacuum in between a box full of rocks all stacked on top of one another getting crowded by one another with what little room or space that is available for anyone to move or do anything differently?
What I am trying to do is get you to see outside of Christmas and the parties and even this very moment....and stand back and look at everyone involved including yourself as a whole.....you are all in one big boat or box(of rocks) and no where to go but right where you are. If this is true....what can be done here?
If you go back to my first response to you in this thread.....I was trying to say roughly the same thing and possibly not very well. By giving you different peoples perspectives and how they might feel.....it might tell you that yours is not the only opinion or feelings involved here. Everyone has there own feelings and opinions on any given circumstance (like the Christmas party....which is just one of thousands of situations that you have encountered and will encounter in the future with your entire family....ALL members involved) If you are operating as an island unto yourself.....you are not considering that you are not alone in how you feel. Everyone else has their own feelings and opinion based on them and each is to their own. That includes kids. They may not be ready to make all the right decisions based on them yet.......but they have them the same just as you. Their feelings and opinions are no more or less important here to them as yours are to you. This is just a simple fact of reality and you know this absolutely from your own experience when you were that age. Your feelings as a child or young person were as important to you then as they are now, right this very minute....the difference is......you have the ability to change them now and see things differently than you did when you were a child. You know this without anyone having to tell you that.
I read what you said about the incident with the text and the different reactions from it and your own conclusions and how you feel here. From my own experience as a boy growing up....and a man married in a situation like your in now.....I know how I felt (or how I would feel) under the same conditions and I can see a number of different opinions to what you are seeing. This is not what is most important here in what I am trying to say......what is most important is that they are different than yours.
As I started out by saying here....I see a discord that is clearly visible to me. I have no doubt in my mind that this exists and I can see it and read it in your comments in this very thread. A closer examination of the word "discord" reveals some very interesting things to consider along with this.....
Discord
disagreement between people.
"a prosperous family who showed no signs of discord"
synonyms: strife, conflict, friction, hostility, antagonism, antipathy, enmity, bad feeling, ill feeling, bad blood, argument, quarreling, squabbling, bickering, wrangling, feuding, contention, disagreement, dissension, dispute, difference of opinion, disunity, division, opposition;
infighting
"stress resulting from family discord"
antonyms: accord, harmony
lack of agreement or harmony between things.
"the discord between indigenous and Western cultures"
2.
Music
lack of harmony between notes sounding together.
"the music faded in discord"
synonyms: dissonance, discordance, disharmony, cacophony
"the music faded in discord"
antonyms: harmony
a chord that (in conventional harmonic terms) is regarded as unpleasing or requiring resolution by another.
plural noun: discords
any interval except a unison, an octave, a perfect fifth or fourth, a major or minor third and sixth, or their octaves.
a single note dissonant with another.
verb
archaic
verb: discord; 3rd person present: discords; past tense: discorded; past participle: discorded; gerund or present participle: discording
disˈkôrd/
1.
(of people) disagree.
"we discorded commonly on two points"
Take a closer look at the components of the word discord and see what is common amongst everything here and apply it to what you are experiencing? Is there a single thing listed here that is not true to what you know already? This is real....this is reality and it's your reality right now.
If the triangulation is just a symptom of a much bigger problem....then it in itself is not the problem and there can be no resolution or solution to be found there. But as I was attempting to say before (probably not very well either)....is that if there is no hope that the situation can change...then starting by treating the symptom may only bring some relief as is with a head cold by taking a decongestant....but it won't cure the virus that created it. It does however....make it easier for you to live and function at least for a start.
But it isn't the problem itself. The problem is that you have more than yourself and what you want as the only opinion or feeling about anything at any given time and each person has their own whether you like theirs or not. If you are seeing everything through a narrow window of view and can only see what you see....you are not considering what others see as possibly being different than your own. Your are a rock if this is what you are doing I think.
And I also see everyone else involved as being a rock too and no one is moving or compromising and coming to one common agreement that everyone feels good about together and can agree upon. If this is true? You can NOT make them change any more than yourself under those conditions?
Until everyone can input their feelings and opinions into the circle and be considered.....this will never change. If there are difference that are not allowed to be said or spoken because of triangulation....then no one knows how anyone else feels but it will come out in the form of resentment and anger when it does....that part is almost a guarantee. For sure without question!!
This will undoubtedly be aimed all in one direction and that is right at the source of the person who is preventing these things to be openly said. They must be said at some time but it won't come out in the way you want to hear it.
The only way to compromise and do it well....is to speak what you really feel and not take it personally when someone feels differently than you do. The differences are there whether they are said or not....they exist in each persons thoughts whether they are being expressed or bottled up inside and festering into anger.
Stick and stones........words cannot hurt you unless you let them. If you let them....there can be no resolution or compromise because you can't see past the reason of possibly WHY they are being spoken. You cannot stop words from being said and they will be said with your approval or not. If you don't approve of them or there are consequences to saying them....they will said somewhere else when you are not around. You cannot stop how someone feels and your cannot prevent the words that are said to express them.
These are the words that you need to hear first....and then really listen to them and use them to tell you what to do. They tell you what other people want...and what they want is as valid as what you want at any given point in time. Before there can be any compromise or resolution to any differences or disagreements that you have with another person.
Triangulation is a form of censorship and the censors are going to be the ones who others will always resent because it blocks them from being able to speak openly and honest;y about their feelings and be included and considered in any decision that effects them personally.
From everything you've said....this is what I see. Melissa didn't come out and say it....but she was simply offering you (one) possible compromise to consider her. There are likely more than just one as well? Your situation in just this one (of thousands) of possible compromises that you will face and have to confront when you are dealing with more than one persons feelings and opinions.
If you are a rock....there can be no compromise and you will get nothing from being this way. Wouldn't it be better to accept 50% of something...than get 0% from nothing? That's what happens when you get stuck in one place and you can't move. You become rigid and unmovable like a rock...instead of adaptable and fluid like water?
Like a cool glass of water that becomes seamless and fluid instead of a box of rocks stacked on top of one another fighting for space.
J
His 4th marriage?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
Should I just walk away from this marriage? I have this spiritual side of me that says I made a promise and commitment. Do I honor that and live with this disrespect? he has said no about taking medication and said no about counseling. I have said no about a family gathering with someone who was so disrespectful. We have both set our boundaries and neither likes what the other has set.
He said he would talk to me tonight. I am his 4th wife and I have a feeling based on what he said this morning he will be telling me it is over. Of course, It only takes one to say no and then I will have no choice. I would love to hear your thoughts.
>>>
Wow. I'm afraid to ask, but what excuses did he give for his first THREE marriages failing? Which wife are his kids from? Have you met any of his ex-wives to get a feel for "their side" and why those marriages ending?
I have only known one person to have that many marriages and be the rather innocent party. She was largely guilty of being very naive (small town girl, not very worldly). She's not a nagger or a yeller or a blamer. Her "crime" is that she was very naive and believed whatever the men in her life tell her.
Her first H was a narcissist who cheated on her repeatedly and then left her for another woman (who he later left for another woman, rinse, repeat). Her second husband was discovered to have child porn addiction and was arrested. Her third husband was very nice, but finally confessed that he was gay (they're still friends). Her fourth husband is also very nice and that marriage is going on 10+ years.
The point is that the above is rare. In most cases, when you meet someone who has been divorced 3 times, that is such a huge red flag that you have to assume that there is something significantly wrong with them...and that needs to be uncovered before going any further. In the example that I detailed, her "big flaw" was naiveté....something that's she's mostly grown out of with age, experience, and these painful divorces.
Have you only ever heard "his side" (likely biased)? Are you starting to suspect that he may have been a significant reason that the earlier marriages failed?
Her other "crime" is that she
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Her other "crime" is that she's the only child of a very wealthy man, so perhaps some jerky guys targeted her for future gold?
forgot to add the above as another possible explanation as to how she ended up with 4 spouses.
Anyway....do you know the TRUTH about why his 3 prior marriages ended from reliable sources other than your H or his kids?
ADD issues is my guess
Submitted by LindaLou on
His first marriage was when he was very young. She left and he moved back in with his parents to raise their infant daughter. 2nd marriage, not sure. Only lasted 3 months, I hear. 3rd marriage - 13 years - ADD issues I hear from his daughter. She was controlling, is what I hear from my husband. My experience with her is she is rather cold.
I have been married multiple times too. My first was after being raped and couldn't be alone- poor choice, but had 2 incredible children. My second was raising 3 children with whom I fell in love with. He left me after they grew up. And then my current husband who was THE most attentive male I had ever known. For 18 months of courtship I was attended to, conversed with and I can only think of twice the television was on. We talked and played and enjoyed each other immensely. The TV came on the morning after our wedding. I was shocked. And, it has been on ever since....
So, I can't fault him for multiple marriages...and, I knew going in that blended families were difficult. I just thought since we did so well talking through everything while dating we would be able to get through the "stuff" that blended families bring to the picture. I didn't anticipate I would be the enemy.
Hi Linda Lou....
Submitted by c ur self on
Blended family here....When we married her two was 16 and 21 boys....My two were 26 and 28 girls and both married....All four Kids get along great, but, do not know each other real well....The 16 year old (24 now) is closer to the girls and Son in Laws because he was at home for 4 years or so.....We have had disaster's around holidays....Simple because of the stress and pressure we put on ourselves...
This is how I am handling it this year....First my wife is add and she has the best of intentions (desiring all of the kids to be family and very close)....As the husband I am just trying to set back and let her do all the planning and contacting....(Always was a mess when when we both got involved, because she believes in forcing her will and I believe in people will do what is important to them) So Thanksgiving went pretty well...We traveled to her Sister's for that side of the family and we hosted my group here...Most peaceful yet:)....Now she has hit a snag getting Christmas dates for everyone, and since I know it will work out and because i know that day will come and go like every other day....I'm just trying to say very little and when I do...I focus on encouraging her to be at peace with it and respect everyone's right to come or not....All of our children have lives and their own set of priorities....And we all love one another so don't let worldly pressure about one day out of the year create stress on you and expectations on others....(My wife just called me from work, little stressed about one of my girls not responding to her texts and I had to remind her about this same message to her to calm her...
Linda Lou....
I hope you can find peace in your situation and I hope we all just keep the main thing, the main thing....
C