Boundaries and Consequences...what does that look like?

You have to establish hard lines

Submitted by adhd32 on Fri, 03/25/2022 - 11:11

You only mentioned clutter and relocating his items and say you aren't interested in advice for that so I will stick with generalities. You have to set boundaries that are somewhat painful for him. Makes mean comments about your cooking? Stop buying his food and cooking for him. Can't act like an adult in public? Go out without him. Don't like the way he drives? Drive yourself. Boundaries shouldn't be criss crossed if they are enforced. You must commit to enforcing the consequences even if you know it will cause sulking and complaining. It is up to you to set the limit you are willing to accept and enforce boundaries once that limit is disregarded. He can only blow up your limits if you don't enforce the hard line you have established. It is work but you will continue to be miserable if you don't push back hard on his behavior. He must know that you mean what you say and will follow through on your boundaries.

I didn't communicate well...

Submitted by whydidInotseethisB4 on Sat, 03/26/2022 - 07:12

UPDATED REPLY:

I didn't communicate that well...the part about not wanting advice. I was asking for advice but not in the form of things like "you have to do this, and this, and this, etc." That feels a lot like I'm being shouted at, being told what to do, etc., which isn't something I need right now. That happens enough here on the home front. I was asking for examples of appropriate consequences. When you said "you must commit to enforcing the consequences, etc". THAT is what I am asking about and agree whole heartedly! I read a lot of articles telling me what I need to do: set boundaries. There are even some examples on certain topics about this. You listed some very good ones in your generalities - thank you for that. There are not many examples of what consequences look like in real life when dealing with clutter (every building is considered hoarding by me, sans things like food, random wrappers, and the like.) It just hasn't fully breached into every room of my home...but it's getting darn close! Getting suggestions and examples is the way I process my thoughts and formulate a plan. I know that may look different than the way others process but it's where I am at right now...needing examples. I believe I know what to do (place boundaries) but don't know exactly what would be appropriate consequences for this "stuff" problem.

Taking my example of first step boundary cross: he keeps putting his stuff into my space so I relocate it back to his. OK, so that happens multiple times per week. My simply moving his stuff back doesn't seem to be cutting it because it keeps happening more frequently. Seems like that isn't painful enough so it seems like I need to kick it up a notch, like there must be a second level consequence? In my own head, it's pretty clear - my space is my space and yours is your own. Please keep your things out of my space. I realize he doesn't think that way. And it's the 'and if you choose not to, then ________will happen' I'm looking for.

On a scale of 1-10, moving his stuff back to his own space is like a 1-2 level consequential response while a 10 would be hauling it outside and setting it on fire (yeah, that's extreme but I'm showing an example of progression). So where is 5,6,or 7 (middle ground) on this scale? What does that look like? I can't fathom going from 1 to 10 without warning and that's a whole lot of work. And maybe I'm asking the wrong questions...maybe you start with big consequences right off? IDK...which is why I am here, asking members of this community for help, suggestions, ideas...that kind of thing. I feel like this is pretty much a safe space to ask questions. Another thought I had was maybe this isn't so much an ADD issue as it is a personality thing. It sure feels like a lot of disrespect in the moment. He refuses to go back to counseling as "it didn't work" but I continue to do my own work. If I don't, I fear truly losing myself altogether (probably under a mound of stuff).

As for those "generalities" you mentioned: I've dealt with the travel issues bc he drags his feet getting ready to go places. I've given him the time I plan to leave and he can either be ready or we travel separately. Fortunately, he's not a picky eater and will eat pretty much anything and he doesn't complain there. I can commit to meal cooking 2-3 days per week with my current schedule. On those other nights, he makes something for himself (and even will prepare a little more for me most times). He overspends so we have separate accounts. I've managed to tackle a lot of those "generalities" but dealing this "stuff" issue is a doozy for me because there's just sooooo much of it. I'm having a hard time finding the consequences that apply to "if you continue to bring more stuff more home" problem.

So yeah, advice in that area is certainly desired. I hope that reply offers a bit more clarity.

Treatment

Submitted by 1Melody1 on Sun, 03/27/2022 - 00:40

I understand your frustrations. I'm wondering if some things just aren't possible without treatment. You said he is untreated and un-admitted. I'm not sure that even setting his belongings on fire would work in that case. It's ADHD, not willful. So maybe it makes sense to put boundaries around getting treatment rather than clearing clutter. Then, ideally, the clearing clutter might come more easily.

If that's not something that will work for you, I can say that I did much the same as you did with repeatedly moving belongings. I would let things sit for a short amount of time (let's say a week) and if he did not pick them up, I put them in his room. It was one room and I could close the door. The room was 4-feet high with junk, but it was just one room. I think if it's beyond that, you have the right to a peaceful space. I've heard of spouses giving warnings that anything left out by Friday (for instance) goes in a trash bag. Harsh and parent-child, but whatever works. I found that getting a cleaning service once every two weeks forced us both to clean the clutter regularly (me a lot more than him, but at least it stayed manageable).

I also found paring back belongings overall helpful. My ex husband is on his own now. He finds it easy to throw the same shirt in the wash every day and just wear that rather than have 30 shirts. They'd all be gathering mold on the floor. He has 3 spoons, knives, forks. He eats out often so there's less mess and few groceries to manage.

Good luck. I know how difficult it is to maintain boundaries that are constantly crossed rather than respected, especially when setting them might not even be in your nature. Eventually I knew the untreated ADHD symptoms would kill me. In my case, all the work was being done by me... the burdens of his condition were being carried by me... Not the person with the condition. That seems wrong when treatment is available. If the person with the condition doesn't desire a change or do the work, I'm not sure things can ever change.

Not at all telling you what to do or how to feel. I have been where you are and it is so painful every single day. Wishing you well.

1Melody1

Submitted by whydidInotseethisB4 on Mon, 03/28/2022 - 08:14

This was a terrific reply...thank you!

When you said, "I'm wondering if some things just aren't possible without treatment." and "It's ADHD, not willful. So maybe it makes sense to put boundaries around getting treatment rather than clearing clutter." I had a light bulb moment with those two statements. I think you are right that there are things that simply not possible without treatment and that really brought a fresh prospective and reminder that I am expecting something that he would not be able to give on his own (aka, without medication & treatment). Plus, your statement about it being ADHD and not willful behavior...that was something I needed to hear again. I recall Melissa (and others on this forum) talking about remembering that very thing. And that it's the relationship that is broken because of the ADHD.

I too have opted to pair down my own belongings out the desire to live more simply and with fewer things. My DH does the wearing one shirt thing too (clean or not) despite having an entire closet full of clothing..We actually were able to sort through our own closet together recently and managed to part with a couple kitchen size bags of clothing for donation. I did my clothing and he did his so I consider that a win-win moment. I am choosing to focus on what I can do something about (my own belongings) and keep my space cleared. It's a battle for my space because he sees it as room for his to fill up because I'm not using it. The cycle of repetition then ensues about how this space is my own, to do with as I wish just as his space is his own to do with as he wishes. He will hyper-focus on the fact that his space is crammed full and I have all this extra room I'm not using. In this instance, I do see that being the ADHD and that reminder you provided clued me in to keep that top of mind. I do find the continual repeating 'this is your space and this is mine' exhausting. I don't see any way out that other than maybe applying some bright colored tape on the floors and walls to designate those separate areas.

I'm sorry you experienced divorce. That is hard no matter what the reason. The realization that you experienced with knowing the untreated ADHD would eventually kill you is heart breaking. I'm sorry you experienced that. I feel this many days, like I am being swallowed alive by things outside my realm of control. It's frightening, sad, maddening, and a whole host of emotions on a roller coaster ride that seemingly has no end. Once I began doing my own personal work, I realized boundaries were never something modeled to me growing up. My FOO was quite dysfunctional but I learned they did the best they could with what (tools) they had to work with.

While it wasn't in my nature to set them, I did gain understanding that boundaries are crucial throughout every aspect of our lives...ADHD or not. I have grieved over the losses of what could've been in many areas of my life, especially in my marriage. Without the grieving process, I don't know that I could've continued thus far. I still grieve over certain things or times when I get a fresh realization that there is one more thing that won't happen in my marriage because of ADHD. Even if he chose treatment, I believe he would also have to choose intensive personal therapy to learn new ways of doing things. It still surprises me how far the tentacles of of ADHD can reach.

I also appreciate your coming along side me with those simple validations of my feelings. Knowing someone else has walked in these shoes is somewhat of a comfort in an odd sort of way. Thank you for not telling me how to feel or what to do but simply being present in that moment. I needed that today!

I can relate!

Submitted by 1Melody1 on Mon, 03/28/2022 - 21:55

I did not grow up in a family where setting or respecting boundaries was a regular occurrence either. I very much relate to everything you said.

I so hope you find your way through this. I agree that your husband would probably need to commit to treatment. My husband half-heartedly agreed to take Adderall eventually, but ended up using it to stay up late online when he felt like it... not to work, parent, communicate or do anything around the house. The commitment to try strategies and learn new ways of doing things had to be there and it wasn't. There are people on this message board who have had success with treatment though. It's nice to hear it works for some couples.

"It still surprises me how far the tentacles of of ADHD can reach."

Truer words I've never read. ADHD touched every aspect of my marriage. Many people think it's just disorganization, but it is so much more. It's impossible to explain to people who haven't lived it. Thank you so much for your kind words about my divorce. Though I knew for sure it was the right decision, it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I'm on the other side now (just over a year now) with no regrets, but it was still heart-wrenching for probably the last ten years of the marriage.

Big hugs to you, no matter what you do or how much brightly-coloured tape you need to use to cordon off your space! :)

relating

Submitted by whydidInotseethisB4 on Tue, 03/29/2022 - 06:06

Thank you for those hugs and kind words :)

You are so right about how most people do not understand what living with ADHD looks like. Your line about how most just think its disorganization is spot on. It's that and just so much more! I didn't realize what was going on until I was no longer willing or able mentally to continue over-functioning. Only then did I have the capacity to 'zoom out' and get another perspective on the possibility of ADHD being a factor. There was a sort of relief that ensued too...that finally being able to put a finger on it and be able to have that ah-ha moment where so much just came together and made sense in some way. Not that it really made sense but I'm sure you know what I mean there?

I don't think my husband would ever even have this conversation with me about ADHD being a possibility. If he won't have a conversation, how would he ever consider medication or a treatment plan? I think that is what is the most saddening to me: the fact he won't consider any possibility except those things he comes up with. And it' usually someone else's (me) fault anyway. That's the mountain I no longer want to keep going around with him. He's not one to take medication period, even recently deciding to stop talking a medication that helped keep from getting up all through the night (BPH) because he says he doesn't need it anymore. And while I hope that to be the case, it seems more like he didn't want to have to make the appointment to see his family doctor in order to keep getting refills. Of course, that's his decision to make as I no longer take responsibility for those things that aren't mine.

I didn't stop over-functioning cold turkey. It was/still is a process for me. I did however, tell my spouse that I wasn't going to be able continuing to keep up with his health as well as my own, especially given he retired and much more time to do those things on his own now. He seemed to take that on rather well once he had the phone numbers but he doesn't stay on top of those things now because he doesn't feel he needs to. And that is most of our issues in a nutshell: he doesn't feel he needs to {insert responsibility, accountability, etc here}. *sigh*

Again, thanks for the encouragement, kind words, and hugs. The conversations here this week have helped me process and feel heard. And I'm rather looking forward to make tape selections this week :)

Boundaries are typically

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 03/27/2022 - 10:58

Boundaries are typically misunderstood as something you place on others...That is true to a degree, but, that kind of thinking will fail more often than not....Most people struggle with boundaries, because they create situations in life, that most of us do not want...Selfish people, or people who want their way in certain area' s of life, will not like boundaries....When we consider marriage relationships, we think about freedom, (naked and unashamed) we think about things (words) like life partner, helper, lover, provider, security etc....Boundary isn't typically one of our go to thoughts..:)

I have to come to realize in my own life, and by reading here for several years, that most non's do not like, or know how to enact a boundary. Why would we? We didn't get married to place boundaries on ourselves....Like I said, we think freedom! But, if we have married someone incapable, or unwilling, (or both) to share themselves (their energy, their attention, their bodies, responsible behaviors) in a responsible manner, then that's a real problem.....

Being a single parent is much easier in most area's of life, than being married to a spouse whom you can't trust to perform the daily routine tasks that a spouse and parent must do, for life to move peacefully and uneventfully along...(The single parent can plan, and at least know's what to expect) Boundaries are effective when we place them on ourselves, and then muster the discipline to see them through (no easy task)....If done properly, boundaries will have a positive effect on limiting chaos, conflict, and reducing anxiety. And over the long haul, it will produce personal growth, and teach us what is possible between the two of us...

Most boundaries will need to be fixed, Although some can be flexible. (it all depends on you and your spouse, and your situation)....Setting boundaries needs to start in the trouble area's of our relationships....Anytime there is a high probability of intrusive or abusive behaviors, we need boundaries....Example for us....Our biggest problems are...Control...My wife (thinks like a single person) will just blurt out her plans like she is single...She takes no thought of her husbands role in her life, most of the time....This effects many things....(travel/vac., sharing in finance's,) It also indirectly effects my emotions....My main boundary is to accept her....There is no other choice, but to attempt to control her...lol...So my emotions, the way I speak to her, and treat her has to be kind, and loving, or I walk away....I don't have to be ugly to get her attention....Just the opposite, love and kindness does the work, along w/ the boundary...She has to meet certain life requirements, (accountability) because I also have a boundary to not enable or mother her...

Setting boundaries on ourselves will always effect our spouses (sooner or later)...It's fools gold to think we can set boundaries on another person...The only way to effect someone's thinking, feelings, and behaviors, is by what we allow ourselves to engage in...If I refuse to tolerate dysfunction by not engaging it, verbally, or behaviorally, then it doesn't effect me for the most part...

We are also all human, and we have those area's in our own life where we may be easy prey. We like to defend them by saying things like..."Well, this is how it is suppose to be" Or, we may say things like " Well, the bible say's this is what a wife/husband, or marriage should be like?" ....The facts are, many times we are right in principle, but, the disposition can get very wrong...And again, no matter what is right, I can send my own self to emotional hell, full of anger and anxiety, preaching to an unconcerned soul about what is suppose to be happening between us....WOW, Who's the looser here?....People who are victims (users) will look to manipulate where they see weakness....My wife used sex to manipulate me for years, until I gained the strength to not allow it to happen...Now it's her pursuing me many times...Be strong!...Recognize & Work on your own weaknesses, and you will see it change your spouse.....

We all need to understand who we are, mentally, emotionally, physically, and most of all Spiritually....It's very difficult to navigate life when we are well and stable, it's impossible when we are sick, and refuse to accept it....The first sign of self blindness, is blame and denial.....Not all blame and denial relates to add minds....

Find Peace and Pursue it....

The above is from an old post....

The following is current....

I wish you well in dealing with messes, and hoarding activity...It's just one symptom of add, and it's very intrusive...I deal with it just as you....I will share my current place of mind with you, if it can be helpful...Boundaries....1) Recognize differences....I was raised to be organized, made by my mom to clean and do my part in my room and our home....Her mind is geared toward self entertainment, being lost in the next shiny thing...People, places and things....So thus this huge difference...Throw in high level add and you have her...Me, probably some adhd myself.....So here we are....Very different people, who really need to respect each other, to have the peace in life we all need in our marriages....So acceptance is key!....If I label her as WRONG, instead of giving grace in life, like her children, my children, her friends do...Then boundaries or not, our relationship will always be broken...So daily I focus on halving things around here....My counter space in the kitchen, and bathroom, My half the bedroom, My area in the living room, etc.....Organized and clean half me...total chaos and cluttered side; her....If she puts things on my half, I just set it on her side...I want cook if she leaves the kitchen in a wreck, I just eat out...(empty nester like yourself)...She eventually will tackle it, but when it's a nuisance for her, which might take a while lol...My wife is the type who is easily spoiled to being enabled...So I must be strict with my own boundary to not enable, pick up behind, etc....It's taken a while, but I've learn to spoil her in ONLY the way's husbands should spoil their wives, and that isn't in carrying her responsibilities, but, in being quick to love her, and take care of my responsibilities as her husband....I can't do that well if I have ill will, or anger, stewing in me about her add mind and the effects it has on her clutter, etc.....

My wife moved into the guest bedroom about a year ago....I don't like it, but, I do sleep better, without her struggles to get to sleep, and her high maintenance life, will u will u will u LOL....So I sent her a text just a day or two ago letting her know since she chose another room, I'm cleaning mine....I was kind, I told her I would not throw her junk away, but, I was cleaning my bedroom, under beds, dust etc....My half is clean and organized, but, lets face it, I'm still breathing dust from her side....We just have to pick our battles, be kind, be firm, don't get drawn into conversations that just get heated and produce nothing good in our relationships....Life is too much of a blessing and gift to be miserable in our relationships all the time....So love and acceptance has to be the number one key!!, or we are kind of wasting both of our lives....

Bottom line: You like myself (and many more on this site) or attempting to live life with a person who has a mind that produces a life style that (at the very least) can be highly intrusive....(Probably should have stayed single) So how we manage our lives...Acceptance, boundaries, forcing accountability by not mothering and enabling, will go a long way in our own peace with in the relationship....

so much in this post

Submitted by whydidInotseethisB4 on Mon, 03/28/2022 - 14:58

Thank you for this in depth reply! I can't put to words all the appreciation I felt while reading this. I've read many of your posts/replies and appreciate your sharing parts of your own journey. You have modeled well what commitment looks like and the lengths in which love goes to stay with the one who holds our heart. Thank you for that.

It's been very hard for to accept my spouse because I saw him act/live/respond/treat me differently during our dating. The whirlwind and romance actually continued a few years in to our marriage. Once we began to experience the hardships that life can throw at any couple, things changed and shifted. I chose to deal and work through them while he chose to try sweeping them under the rug instead. At one point in my life, I did the same thing. Dealing with loss/grief/baggage takes work and I wasn't at a place mentally that I could do that until several years in to our marriage when it became impossible to function otherwise. So not only does my spouse not deal with the ADHD, he doesn't deal with much of anything and that's it own problem *sigh*

My DH chose a separate bedroom as well. I do sleep better and do not have the mess to contend with. Fortunately, when he chose to sleep in another bed, I did some painting (which I put off for a long time due to clutter), moved around some furniture, and simplified the space altogether. He does still have half the master bedroom closet, which mostly remains untouched because he typically has 2-3 sets of clothes he wears. We did jointly go through the closet with each of us pulling out belongings we did use/wear/need. That was a win-win. He has yet to tackle the shelves of his remaining clothing despite many promises to do so. I've resolved to simply keep my shelves and space neat and organized and close my eyes to the cluttered part of the closet. If it didn't have a door I could close, it would be a different story. Like 1Melody1 mentioned in her own experience, she could close the door even if stuff was stacked 4 feet high.

Since we will be doing some deep cleaning soon (dusting, wall washing, etc.), this will be the time to designate those spaces that must remain uncluttered. I expect some hard push back on this one. Our living room and kitchen space is all one open area so I may have to implement the "his space, my space" & I may need to tape off those spaces so there can be no feigning of not remembering. I've tried simply keeping the whole space clean but it is a battle that cannot be won with a walking tornado. When he was working outside the home full time, it was containable. Now that he has retired, it is not. I am simply not willing to clean/organize the same space 5x a day because he can't /won't. I'm not a minimalist but the level of clutter that has ensued over the years make it difficult for me to be in a cluttered space for long periods of time.

Being an HSP and anxiety with things like clutter and excessive noise are things I need consideration and respect for as a personal need. There is only so much I can personally do to mitigate those things so I retreat a lot to my bedroom when it gets too to be too much. Investing a good pair of earplugs has helped tremendously. I've slowly given up those common areas that should've remained clutter free zones. I endured several family losses from 2015-2018, including both parents, an aunt and my beloved grandmother. I simply did not have the mental energy needed to expend on my efforts to contain clutter during that grieving period.

I've over-functioned and enabled for 20 of our nearly 24 years together. Over the last 3-4 years, I've slowly untangled what is my responsibility, what isn't, and understand I have more to learn along the way. This process has not been without failures, mind you, nor has it been met with any enthusiasm from my husband. Quite the opposite and the fall out has been awful. But I realize that boundaries are for me, not something I can place on another person because I can only control myself and how I may choose to respond to someone else. At the end of my days or at the end of this age, I will only give account for myself, not anyone else. That has been a good reminder system for me. Learning to love well in this process is so very challenging.

Funny you mentioned the 'probably should've stayed single' aspect. I wasn't sure if that was an implication for yourself or your wife but in either case, I have had that thought myself. But in avoiding the possibility of pain, I would've missed the dance (not my line but paraphrase of a song lyric) and likely not learned what I have about myself. I also might not have been so quick to do my own work and become my own whole person, living in my created fullness. That is the path I have chosen for myself. Leaving has crossed my mind because, in some ways, it would be easier. Like you mention...the part about not being able to trust your partner to follow through and complete basic tasks (and responsibilities) spoke volumes to me. But leaving has immense consequences when compared to the short-term relief. So, I'm learning to 'stay' well before I can consider 'leaving' well. And in staying well, that acceptance of my husband has to be a key factor in my decision.

Thank you for the valuable insight in your post reply.

Love your sweet post....

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 03/28/2022 - 21:22

You and I are so much a like....I'm an HSP....I buried my mom in 2017....Oldest brother...2019...Dad...2020...My baby brother died last Monday night....It's been a difficult week :(....I think you can do this....I love the way you worded it.....Learn to live well under difficult circumstance's, before we consider leaving well (peacefully knowing it's the right thing for both of us) I'm at peace with leaving, but, I'm not planning on it...:)....The Holy Spirit will secure you, and give you strength for each new day he allows us.....I'm sending you big (((HUGS)))) and prayers....

oh the loss

Submitted by whydidInotseethisB4 on Tue, 03/29/2022 - 06:34

C -

My deepest, heartfelt condolences on your losses. How hard it is to deal with such grief, especially that which comes so close together. Waves of grief are so terribly hard! I pray Holy Spirit grants to you and yours the peace which passes all understanding. It is truly a wonder and sweetness that we can trust Him in our hours of need.

Aahh yes, fellow HSP's have an understanding of others pretty much like no other. Sometimes just have that validated speaks and without words, just that nod of understanding. I believe it was Leslie Vernick who coined the work about learning to live well (or leave well). Her background is in teaching and counseling about emotionally destructive relationships. What I learned was, with either choice, you have to learn to do it well. For some, they have to leave and then get well. I understand that. Thus far, I've been able to stay and am learning to do that well. Otherwise, the bitterness and anger takes root and you find yourself back in the dysfunction, usually paired up with another dysfunctional human being to create an even more dysfunctional life (yeah, no thanks). And, if I can no longer 'stay well', then I do have the choice to leave and do that well. There is a certain peace that comes knowing you have the option to leave, even if you're not planning on acting on it.

So same to you : The Holy Spirit will secure you, and give you strength for each new day He allows us! Hugs & Prayers :)

My deepest condolences, C

Submitted by sickandtired on Tue, 03/29/2022 - 12:40

C, I had no idea you have experienced so many recent losses of loved ones. I am so sorry. I have always admired your calm loving responses to life’s challenges. Now I am also admiring your compassion and strength in the face of loss, and I can see you find peace in helping others. Sending you a hug.

Thank you S&T

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 03/29/2022 - 18:00

I'm sorry C

Submitted by 1Melody1 on Tue, 03/29/2022 - 19:33

So very sorry to hear of your losses. I hope you are hanging in there. My condolences to you and your loved ones, C. ♥️

Thank you Melody

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 03/30/2022 - 09:59

I'm well...I hope life is going well for you and your daughter....

Boundary help

Submitted by Sunshine76 on Tue, 04/19/2022 - 09:27

I highly recommend the book Boundaries in Marriage by Dr Henry Cloud. He has several Boundary books and they are all good. From that book I learned that boundaries are meant to protect something inside of them, not to control someone outside of them. So in your case, boundaries such as 'if you put your stuff in my space I will throw it out' doesn't rely on them changing at all. You are simply protecting your space. You probably only have to do it once for him to register that his stuff will be gone if he puts it there. Hope that helps.

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