I've come to a realization that is plaguing me to the point of distraction. I have accepted it...but I have yet to move on from it that appears to be at the source of something I have yet to come to any understanding of. It really is about anger and denial and it is part of the inability on my wife's part to speak to me openly about this which is why I have come here and stayed here looking for something that will allow me to put this mystery to rest and just move on from it.
I can see the legitimacy behind everyone here (besides me)....that has come to face in their relationships with a person who they married and has ADHD and that is not the problem. The problem I have in coming to terms with my own personal situation is that I was married before.....felt I have learned from my mistakes...and tried my best not to bring the past into my current relationship with my wife. And since I spent a great deal of time educating her and warning her of all the symptoms and their draw backs....I am seeing no difference in before when I didn't know... or do this ahead of time...in comparison to now. No difference what so ever.
My wife cannot say she was surprised or shocked. She can't say I didn't tell her ahead of time. And she can't say that she was sand bagged, duped, deceived or not given a thorough amount of information to be armed with enough to use this as an excuse in her case. She was with me plenty...and I even pointed out what was 'ADHD and what was not to her ahead of time so she could know what she was seeing and not see or read something else into it.
To be sure and to make this clear.....everyone else I have read about or has come here has a legitimate reason to use here.... in case of not knowing and then finding out later either due to denial, not communicating things ahead of time, or not doing anything to correct the effects that ADHD has on their relationship.
I'm not going to assume anything here and not assuming that everything that I've speculated to...is even even correct about my wife and what I've learned and tried to apply to her. No one has diagnosed my wife with anything and I'm leaving that stand right where it is. Not knowing anything and assuming she is just like any other non-spouse who's come here.
Can anyone help me understand from the non ADHD side of things.....how you would feel if you were with me...and had all of that information and up front communication explained to you.... with full disclosure...... and a willingness to talk about anything....in order to put some legitimacy in having the same attitude and the same issues you are having now...with a situation where none of this actually happened ahead of time?
I'm finding without something that I had yet to run across or find any means to compare to...impossible to give my wife any legitimacy to being the same (exactly) as if none of that ever happened. I can find no comparison or situation to compare mine to..and this has created a situation where I find myself discounting everything my wife says as an excuse and without credibility. I'm not looking for validation for myself....I'm looking for a legitimate "real" answer to something that I am no longer going to keep trying to find an answer to...but I would be lying to say that the weight of anything my wife says to the contrary in taking the same position that I experience in the past has little to no credibility what so ever.
Without the same legitimacy I see here with literally EVERYONE ELSE except for my wife....I need this explained to me from the only point of view that I cannot get for myself being on this side of things?
This is the "thing" or the "it"...that my wife won't say....and nothing here on this forum as yet to prove to help explain this to me yet? All I see when my wife complains....is hypocrisy...and I cannot resolve see my way out of it enough...to give my wife the same credit, that I can give to everyone else who is not in this situation. I'm not looking for a way out....or a means for an excuse....I'm looking for an opinion or a perspective that I cannot get on my own. That would be impossible to see or know....not knowing anything else?
Knowing this...will help me know which way I approach my wife and not assume what I can't know other wise. I can either give her the benefit of the doubt.....or not. Right now. She hasn't earned it, which appears the one thing that every other non-ADHD person who has come here actually has because of this very reason that does not apply to anyone else except for me in this case.
As it appears to me....doing what I did was a monumental waste of time if it doesn't matter either way and the same thing happens anyway. That's the problem but I would like to get a different opinion on this...which would give me cause to doubt myself and give that benefit of the doubt to my wife.
This is the perspective that appears missing with only her and no one else? I feel guilty for ignoring her and dismissing her anger as invalid because of this....and I really don't want to do this which is what I'm saying. Either I know that I should keep doing what I'm doing...and try to weed out the wheat from the chaff and just keep guessing...or just let it go and ignore her and invalidate what I can only see as hypocrisy on her part. I have yet to come across my situation exactly...and this makes me feel like the odd man out here with nothing else to go on?
The thing is....I have the only experience that I have that tells me when I see what I'm seeing which is exactly the same....then the same thing will happen whether I do anything or not....the same as I said about the monumental waste of time and energy spent already. All the examples and the spectating about how to get out of a relationship with someone with ADHD....appears to be the overwhelming evidence of not investing any more than I have to..if the inevitable is going to happen anyway.
The pattern seems consistent....regardless of the effort or energy you put in? (in my situation, past experience...and in light of everything that does not apply....to anyone else here? ) If that's the case....why waste your time or energy in the first place? In my mind....that's just selling yourself short and betraying yourself in the process? Why would anyone put forth any effort or energy.....to do that? I could certainly save myself the trouble...and put my energies else where and just stop worrying about it do what ever I'm doing with give no credence to wifes opinion since she doesn't count here since she can't use that as an excuse. Does anyone have an opinion?
J - I wish I could give you
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
J - I wish I could give you better insight, but honestly with out your wife's perspective it would be very hard to give you any really good feedback - but I will give it a go. :-)
What I can say is ONLY based on my reading of your posts, so take it for what you will - and know that I dont think badly, poorly or anything else of you - in fact i am super grateful that you are here and that you give your perspective (even if at times I dont understand it or agree with it).
To me - every time I see you mention your wife, its always in the negative. I have seen you point out things she does - and to *me* they seem innocuous - but you take them as an assault to you. For instance, the other day you mentioned how when she would say to you "It would be nice if you ..." and you felt it was her shaming you and you really did go off on her from the sounds of it, and you really seemed upset in your post. I didnt get it - I didnt see it then and I still don't. But what I DO get from you is that you read into every thing she does as an attack to you (and granted, I am not privy to all your goings on etc, and I know that here we get a very skewed picture because we only hear the negative in this forum). I say that all the time to people, and have it said to me all the time as well (work and personally) - and there is no other motive or intention or anything at all other than what I am saying at face value. Do you think that maybe because of the way your brain interprets things that you could be misreading what she is doing and saying and taking things as an attack when they aren't? I know my H does that all the time- and how he comes up with the things he does just boggles me and makes me feel like I cannot win. Perhaps she is at the point where she feels like no matter what she says or does you will take it negatively even when there is no negative intent so she doesnt even bother or try anymore?
I think when we start reading things into what people SAY (notice I am not saying DO here) especially when we take strong reaction to those things, we start walking on the dangerous ground of presumption. I *personally* think that maybe go to her, open and humbly and ask to wash away all things of the past, start anew and tell her that you have a hard time not reading into things and maybe you guys can come up with some code words or queues so you both can recognize you are being triggered and maybe she can give you a code word so you know that there is no negative behind it? I cant say it would help- but from my perspective (with out knowing you, and ONLY knowing the small details you post here) I don't think I could deal with someone who constantly felt the need to call me out on things like shaming and hypocrisy when none was intended.
Take this for what you will - there is no negative intent behind it. I only hope that you can take things from the perspective of someone who is on the other side of that constant assumption and presumption - and who is exhausted from it as well.
Wish you the best J - I hope you find a way to figure this out.
Submitted by NonADHD on
Good point. My wife has ADHD and she has extreme anger issues, the slightest offensive thing I say, even respectful and considerate she flips out. She hasnt said one thing positive to me in a while. She cant say anything nice, she wont apologize, after throwing me out in a fit of rage over a month ago and yet, asked me to stay at home for 4 days and I did the lawnscape, washed her car only to be told to leave again. Its like she's missing who I am. She wasnt always like this but this is a side that is over the type psycho. So to your point, he is missing the whole thing. Why is hard for some like my wife with ADHD to never apologize, say I'm sorry or feel empathy. I got thrown out after my step sons father committed suicide, and I adore my step son and he adores me.
I Hear You....Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
And there is a fair amount of truth in what you saying and I won't disagree. What I really didn't notice before until recently...is the negativity that you mentioned in my posts but this is telling to me. What you can't know...and what you don't see....is how well I actually don't do this with my wife AS MUCH...as I do it here. This is that projection thing that I'm talking about. It can be subtle...and not so subtle. But in general....I'm actually pretty positive and even keeled and don't do a lot of complaining and mostly suck it up and move on. To my own detriment going the other way but with awareness that I do it and have to catch myself as well. Not doing anything, sucking it up and putting a bow on everything...use to be my normal way of being and being more comfortable there than saying anything negative at all. This has changed and I am no longer remaining silent but not doing a very good job of speaking up even when it's appropriate. If you can picture this...and taking most of what I now see as venting that negativity here instead of with my wife....I'm much better and not saying anything....than I am saying negative things or grouching and complaining in the reality of our daily lives together.
While agreeing with that it must show in some ways....I see myself mirroring my wife...more than I am negative myself in my attitude and behavior if that makes sense. And instead of mirroring it back to her....I'm venting it out here instead.
To be honest with you....I actually thought about disguising myself ad a non-ADHD spouse and coming here with the exact same problems and just being on the other side for a change and pretending to be my wife but applying everything exactly the same just to see what happened? I wanted to see how my attitude changed if I was no longer on the other side of the tracks. The reason for this is for the exact reason I said this. I am mostly an easy person to get along with and generally...make friends easily and give people a really wide margin of error.
But when your inundated with negativity and immersed in it with someone who I cannot (and have tried...OH LORD I have tried) to do what you suggested and come to her humbly with arms open and guard down. It's like that conversation never happened...and the negativity just keeps pouring in and coming and coming on strong. It's like an addiction with her to be negative and dismissive and this only rubs off on me and then now I'm doing it too. This much...I can see and the reasons why.
What I have never really experienced before in exactly this way.....is the misinterpretation and reading into what I say. What I know for a fact that I do and have done...is assume without knowing...that everyone else here is doing the same thing with me as it comes through me...and gets assumed forward.
The whole point of me being here at all....is the anger on my wife's part....that she is unwilling to talk about. Refusal to talk and be open...is the only reason to even bring this up at all? Everything you've read and my actual venting of the my anger.....comes from either an inability to communicate...and not just react with anger but not explain to me "why" she is so angry?
For example...I might forget something or miss something. Okay...no big deal. I know I do this and after the fact...realize I missed it. ADHD. Totally aware I do this....no problem with having this pointed out. If the person says..."hey I angry"..
"Why are you angry" I'll say.
"Because you did this" Even if I didn't catch myself...or realize it right in the moment because now they're angry because I missed it or forgot. I know why. I have ADHD. This is an ADHD symptom. I recognize this and say so. "I did this because...XXXX" I can connect the action...to the anger...and know why I did it. And say so right then. No big deal for me to do this. No need to lie...make excuses...down play or anything. Straight up. I did this because (rational, resonable, understandable explanation to account for my actions.) Easy. Simple. Straight forward language in plain English. Done deal. Even if someone is tired and fed up with doing this same thing over and over. I can still do the same thing...in exactly the same way each time. I know what I did. And I know why I did it. And I can say it simply...as long as the other person tells me what I did so I can connect the anger they have....with the action. How hard is this? It's not hard. It's easy. And it doesn't bother me for someone to say so....up front. I have to accept their anger...because I know why they're angry and I know I failed in some way to meet my responsibility. Done deal. Move on.
But when my wife just reacts with anger. Can't tell me why she is angry. Can't connect what I did to her anger and refuses to say or tell me why....or.....says something that I didn't do that is clearly obvious to me that is not on the list of things that I know or makes sense....or.....have never really been accused of that before and it doesn't seem reasonable or even understandable to me? And if I ask her to explain what I did that made her angry....and gets upset if I ask......or gets even worse.....says it's because of the thing that I just saw her do but accuses me of something that I know I didn't do (like I'll just be sitting there minding my own bussiness...and she come in the room and start venting on me about something that happened days before completely out of context...that if you were to put it back into the same context as when it happened, what she's saying now makes no sense what so ever...and now she's angry about something in the past that she can't connect to actually happening now and can't connect her anger to anything that makes sense to me in that same plain understandable English...;;but admits later that it was a distortion....but can't remember the part about her reacting with anger and us fighting over why she can't tell me why she was angry? The how am I to know...what I did....to connect it to my action...so I can understand...why she was angry in the first place???
All I see on a daily basis...is reactive anger...and her inability to tell me why? And she does this....ALL THE TIME!! Nearly on a daily basis. And if she does admit later or figure out what she was actually angry about...the part about the reactive anger and the incoherent inability to communicate why she was angry...is completely forgotton??? This appears completely incoherent and illogical to me????? Logic being...the common dominator here? Everyone has emotions...and they are all illogical including my own. Not being able to determine or explain your emotions to let someone else know why they angry with you and just reacts....makes no sense to me at all. I only now one person in life who did this and that was my father. I have never seen this in any of my relationships with any other woman in my entire life?? This is not me here. Anything else....literally anything else that anyone might say as to why they are angry....I will immediately respond to them...and explain my actions to them and give them a reasonable reason or explanation as to why I did it. Even before I went to therapy.....I would at least lie or make an excuse or any number of other reponses instead of just reacting with anger and not be able to give that person something that is not incoherent...and not understandable even if it's not telling the truth??? I never got angry with them for simply asking the question or react in anger...and don't know why I was angry????? Why do you think....that I want to know why? Why? Why? Why? Because she won't tell me that why? LOL And if you ask.....she get angry!! LOL This makes no sense to me what so ever...but I'm not going to lend any credit to her anger...until I understand what I did to connect it to her anger in a way that I can understand? Plain English....using logic as a common denominator whether I agree with it or not. If I can't understand why they are angry....and it just comes gushing out in emotion that can't tell me the basics like...."why are you angry with me???" But I'm not allowed to ask why since that will make her angry. The how am I to know what I did...to make her angry....so I won't do that again??? You can't do that...if they can't tell you why? I'm the one with ADHD here.....I have no idea what I'm seeing with her and this is what I am not familiar with or recognize with anyone else I've ever been with before. I may have brought me with me into the relationship....but I know for a fact....I didn't bring this with me. And when she accuses me of doing this very thing with her....but later admits to having distortions but can't remember being angry or reacting? Well??? What do you think??
If my wife was the one with ADHD.....that would explain it. But she's not or I'm not going to assume anything other than what I know. What I know is...I have ADHD and why wife does not. My wife is a non ADHD person and that's all I know? See the problem? If I didn't know better than to diagnose people....I'd say she's the one with ADHD and in denial because that's exactly what it looks like to me. But I'm not going there.....not on your life!!! lol I am not qualified to diagnose anyone ....not with a 20 ft pole I'm not. lol
But thanks for pointing my part out and what you see. This is really helpful to able to get a different perspective and I appreciate it. I really do appreciate it and I can see where you're right. Regardless of the reasons......what you've seen here...is combination of things and my negative emotions are one of them. That I'm doing my best NOT to share with my wife and be aware of regardless. But it is good for me to see it because this is different than the norm for me to be this way in general in an on going basis. This the dynamic...working against me and I know this is true.
Having said that....I know they come through to my wife as well which is why it's good for me to hear. We mirror what we see and we return it in a circle. After too long....it doesn't matter where it started. Good to have that kind of feedback since the source doesn't really matter after the fact:) All I can do is work on that part myself.
But you are right....no one knows what goes on behind closed doors. There really is still..... something in what I am saying that is not on my end of things that is not coming out into the light from my wife....which leaves me right where I am? The trigger from the past even if they are happening now...are still coming into play here.
But what I do know for sure without question...is the shaming thing my wife does. She uses shame and guilt (or tries) to get me to do things. That much I'm sure of. I know this so well now...there is just no getting around it. That..."it would be good...." ....really doesn't tell you the rest of what comes after it. It's really the prelude opener....to what comes next every time she opens with it. I just didn't realize the judgment that I connected to it that is always consistent with the shaming and criticizing my performance. If she can't use judgment it seems....she can't say anything at all. Judgment...is shaming after all is it not? It's criticizing not critiquing. Big difference. Critiquing is objective feedback to learn from for the benefit of the listener. Criticizing is only negative and not useful what so ever except for the judger. It's of no use to person being judged other than to cause them to feel shame or embarrassment. That's just a one way street with the dead end to no where.
There's a difference between failing to do something....not doing something....or just not doing something well. If you eliminate the first two categories....then that only leaves "not doing it well"...or to perfection or to a standard deemed acceptable by someone other than yourself as the only thing left. I can't see that any other way....other than just plain old criticizing and judging someone and doing it for the only reason to make yourself feel better by doing it. ....that is....for not doing something as well as you can do it. That all judgment and shaming as far as I can tell?
And what I'm not doing...but I could do soooooo easily....is return fire and do the same thing with her. Judge how well she does things that I am so much better at doing than her...and putting her down for doing a poor job at (take your pick) about 100 things I can do so much better than her.....if "better" is the only criteria. That's one door....I can honestly say that I won't open unless her doing the this with me on a consistent daily basis gets so weary and tiresome...that I have a 'weak moment"...compared to being swamped with it on a daily basis. That just one example of the hypocrisy right there. I'm not going near that door....with an inch of my life. When I finally cave and do the tit for tat thing like a child on my end...but it's not a thing I do normally....that's my problem,....shame on me.
I say this because....this hasn't been what other women I've been with...have complained about and is more specific in relationship with my wife only. How well I do things in fact....has never really been at issue in any of my relationship before or at least...not been something that anyone normally....has ever complained about before. Not doing things. Forgetting about doing things. Doing things I wasn't suppose to dol.... that I can easily connect with why these past ladies were angry....was par for the course in my past.
Honestly...that's what really first started clueing me in about having ADHD. I looked at the complaints from my past relationships....and looked for the common theme or the commonality between them....with each different person. When I notice the common complaints...and added them up to me....they pointed straight to my ADHD symptoms and that's what first clued me in.
What I said about...."taking you with you" to a new relationship...came from this experience personally and that's exactly why I said that.
This thing with my wife and her complaints....they are not the common ones (some are but not others....it's these other ones that make no sense? ) and did not appear in all my past relationships taken as a whole? It's what makes me so confused and not understanding...especially when she can't even explain it to me in simple plain English??:
I know it's denial.....but denial of WHAT? I'd sure like to know? Wouldn't you want to know about your H's unusual irrational behavior ...if you didn't know he had ADHD??? I'm no different....but I know something is not right that is not me???
J, when I was married, I didn
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
J, when I was married, I didn't want my husband to hide his feelings. I didn't want him to be always on an even keel. I wanted him to (please excuse my language) give a shit about the fact that our marriage was falling apart. Instead, most of the time, he acted as though everything was just fine and I was crazy. Not helpful at all.
Submitted by kellyj on
My heart really goes out to you. Not caring or treating you the way he did...is such a horrible thing to do to anyone. What I can say with some sincerity....that being closed off and pretending everything is just dandy....is not my problem. It's not my wife's problem either which tells me at least....it's important to her based on the level of emotions that I see.
But what I have read about with you and how he did you this way....is really unacceptable on every level. That was so abusive and so disrespectful...all I can say is how sorry I am and sincerely hope you find a better life without him. You deserve better than that and can only see better things in your life once you find the time to heal and move on. I hope it comes sooner than later for you. God speed to you.
Epiphany!!! Santa Claus
Submitted by kellyj on
I have some things to say that need some processing. But before I forget (since it's late and I'm tired) I suddenly realized the truth. The truth about lies. The more truth you know....the less we lie. When their are consequences to telling the truth....to avoid the consequences....we lie. The guiltier we are and know our guilt....the less we lie. The guiltier we are...and don't know the truth....the more we lie. The more honest and truthful...we believe we are....the more we lie. The guiltier we are...and know our guilt....but the consequences of telling the truth is more severe than admitting our guilt...the more we lie.
Truth is a relative thing...based on the truth we know. The more innocent someone appears...the less you can trust them to tell the truth. The more guilty a person is and admits there guilt....the more that person can be trusted to tell the truth. Someone who has nothing to lose and is already at the bottom...is more apt to tell the truth and be trusted....than someone who has everything to lose and appears to be just fine..is the most apt to lie and not tell the truth.
If being right or wrong...is most important....then the truth is easily dismissed as irrelevant. If being good.....and not being bad....is most important....then the truth is irrelevant and is easily dismissed as irrelevant.
This all goes back to my story of how I figured out about the Santa Claus Hoax and how angry I was about being lied to by my family. How the truth....became so important to me...and why being right or wrong was not. It's also why I don't care about being right or wrong or could care less how well someone does something. The truth and admitting the truth....is the most important thing to me. I said I was kind of fixated with people admitting when their wrong. This wasn't accurate. Admitting the truth and exposing what it true....is the most important thing. Knowing what is true....no matter how much it hurts....is all I ever wanted to know.
Everyone lies. No one is truly honest if they can't see what is true. The truth is only relative to what you know is true. If believing what is not true...is more important than actually knowing the truth...that person will be most apt to lie compared to someone who appears innocent and honest...and believes things that are not true in reality. The more we need to believe what is not true....the less we can be trusted to be honest and are more apt to lie and be dishonest in reality.
If a person...needs to believe that Santa Claus is real.....that person is more apt to be a dishonest person is most apt to lie and not tell the truth.
I remembered this...when I remembered how angry the mothers in the neighborhood got when I told the truth about the Santa Claus Hoax to their kids who came home crying. The mothers were angry...that I told the truth because they wanted their children to believe in a lie that was not true. I remembered that my mother was not angry with me...but wasn't all that happy either in that she couldn't explain to me what I did wrong since....I only told the truth but the truth had consequences that she could not explain to me in a rational way. This was only adding insult to injury. Now there were consequences for telling the truth...the same as their were consequences for asking for the truth in Sunday school and getting kicked out for asking a simple honest question as to how and why? The truth it seemed....was double standard? The truth was less important....than it was to lie. Lying as it was taught to me....was the correct thing to do instead of telling the truth which I refused to believe since telling a lie was a sin. Which meant....the real truth is less important....than believing what is not true and can't be proved...which is a lie. No one wonder I called Bullshit on what I was told in Church. It seemed...that nothing was true...and everything was a lie...and you can't trust anyone to tell the truth if the Priests and clergy could lie with a bold face...and tell you it's the right thing to believe in something that cannot be proven as true...that there is no way possible for it to be...by any means of reality other than a complete fabrication and distortion of the truth with no way you can prove them wrong. No wonder I didn't trust anyone to tell me the truth...and had to find the truth..on my own since everyone lies since the truth is not important.
As I see this....if the truth is not important...and being right, righteous, good, and innocent is. Then any time the truth hurts...then it has to be a bad thing. Good ...,.bad....right.....wrong. These are all value judgments...;and nothing exists in between. I get it!!!! lol
I know think I see the truth here. I'm guilty automatically for being a man and having ADHD as far as my wife is concerned. What she wants me to be....is Santa Claus....but this is not the truth. That's the real problem right there. She sees weakness....in having ADHD and judges me for it even though it's true. Santa Claus is magical and has magical powers and is not weak....she's rather believe in Santa Claus....than face the cold hard truth of reality. I was damned....before I even walked through the door and didn't even know it? That's the truth...now that I can see it. Pretending..and putting on pretense...is more important to my wife...than the truth is because the truth appears weak...and weakness needs to be judged. Ironically....the truth is....actually just the opposite of this true but she will never believe it.
I was right....thinking in opposites is the way to the truth for my wife after all? Her anger is invalid...since her anger is based on a lie that she believes is true. The lesson I learned at age 5 ( or just before) still applies today. Believe what is true....but never say it and just think it anyway!! LOL
I'm glad I remembered that lesson.."tell people what they want to hear....whether it's true on not. Lying is irrelevant to the truth...if the truth is always relative in terms of good, bad, right wrong. The truth is only right...if it can never be wrong. Which means....the truth is meaningless...unless someone actually wants to here it?
Good to know that my wife doesn't want to know the truth and who I really am. I won't need to waste any more time on that for sure and don't need to lend any credence to her anger since her anger is about being told that Santa Claus doesn't exist.
Just one thing, maybe two
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J I take your post to be process-writing, getting thoughts on paper, as you hunt for understanding. It doesnt read to me like a finished, final set of conclusions you've reached after testing things out in life or against memories, or after challenging your own lines of logical infererences. A beginning, working piece. So I wont respond to your description of truth telling.
On another subject, grudges. You probably already have this well in your wheelhouse, but if not, you might want to look up what other people with ADHD say about holding grudges. I'll leave the word to them about how they see themselves in the matter. My husband has remarked that he knows about himself, that once he gets locked into a judgment about someone, he stays in it like concrete.
If I were in your wife's situation before marriage, hearing your lengthy, honest and detailed description of who you were, what you were not, and what you needed and preferred, I'd know something was very serious that was up, but if I had never in my life actually lived aroundADHD or you with ADHD, verbalization, no matter how excellent, about who you were and what younwould and wouldnt do, wanted and didnt want, would not be sufficient warning that I would be able to guess a) what my needs in that situation would be, b) how I would react, once things got off the drawing board, and key to me, c) whether or not there would be room fo me, on my terms and according to my needs, in the relation...since you had so strongly declared the psychic territory that had anything to do with you.
J, you could do no other than be up front about yourself, and I'm proud of you for doing that. But people create a relationship by actually living it, not by one of the two calling a meeting before it begins under one roof and distributing a plan for himself.
To his great, credit, before we married, my husband asked me what I needed him to do. But heck, I was in NO shape to answer that question, because I hadnt begun living around ADHD yet, and didnt know how to live with it yet.
Submitted by NonADHD on
I liked what you said here, "that once he gets locked into a judgment about someone, he stays in it like concrete", my wife is the same way. She has ADHD and when she locks into a place of anger, like she is now, she holds a fierce stance on seeing me in a way that is so negative. Her words and actions continue to display the grip that she has. I watch her and it's so hard for her to reason out of it. I don't know when or how that happens, but eventually it does. I think when someone who has ADHD is hyper focused on a mind set, they lock into it and stay there for extended periods of time, much longer I think, then anyone who isn't ADHD. I see this in my wife and in her daughter who is diagnosed with ADHD as well. No reasoning in anyway will shake it. In fact, the more I try, the further locked in she becomes. It's such a lose-lose situation for a non-ADHD person, waiting for your love to come out of this hypnotic state.
On this matter, I prefer what people with ADHD say about it
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Just to let you know, I'm stubborn, too, and not because of ADHD, but because of who knows what in me, I sometimes take a long time, too, before I "get set" on a decision about someone, and then once I've taken my long while of listening and seeing pattern, I, too, lock into a judgment about how to handle myself around the person....and it takes a long time before I see enough to make a change from a decision that I've locked into about how to interact with that aperson.
So I can be susceptible to grudges myself, although generally I'm less inclined to lock into anger at someone because I judged that they screwed up or did me wrong....these days, in this phase of my life.
So I don't think grudges are a product of ADHD wiring. The best onliine treatment of the subject of grudges I saw didn't address people with ADHD.
I will not describe an "ADHD grudge content" either, as you sailed into. When someone with ADHD identifies to him or her self that he/she holds grudges, I prefer to hear from them, not tell them or describe them, as to what's going on inside of them when they grudge hold or otherwise get locked into a judgement. I know the features of my own locks into judgement; I don't know anyone else's
I really do not like to generalize about all people with ADHD, leading to conclusions such as you made in your post that hyper focus amounts to locking into a mind set and staying in it for extended periods, much longer than anyone who isn't ADHD. That last part doesn't fly with me.
And I especially would avoid your claim for all people with ADHD, based on a sample of two, you not being one of the two in the sample, that "no reasoning will shake" hyperfocus. It's condescending for me to presume to describe the content of my husband's hyper focus, and I do NOT equate hyperfocus with grudge holding...in anybody, whether having ADHD or not. So I'm not buying your generalizations about ADHD, Doug.
The rest of your post, in which you talked not generalizing about ADHD but about yourself, I bought 200%. You were describing yourself in your situation, which I wish you weren't having to go through, and you were accurate for yourself.
I've written to you before about lumping all people with ADHD together. Thinking about it, the trigger then was the same thing that is triggering me now to write to you about what you posted. It's your business what you generalize, of course. You can generalize that women are from Mars and men are from Venus, I don't care. But I have care of my own and will always go to bat for them.
The last time this happened, you again, as here, picked up something that I mentioned about my husband, and wove what I said about him into something that I didn't say about him or about people with ADHD, nor did what you airbrushed into your own statement about ADHD, using my remark about my husband describe him, so loyalty triggered some talk back to you then about the same thing I'm talking to you about now, about overgeneralization because I didn't like your including my husband in something in which he didn't fit. That mattered more to me than seeing my words redeployed in ways that didn't fit my own use of them. I'll stand up for him anytime you use my words to describe him falsely.
All best to you. I wish you weren't going through what you're going through with your wife. I really do.
If you can accomplish it, please stop including my husband in your remarks at all. You're neither doing right by him nor are you using anything I've mentioned about him in the way that I've written it.
One way to make sure that you stop doing that is for me to never to mention him again on this site, but that will be pretty weird since this site is for discussing marriage and ADHD. So I'll ask you to leave the two of us out of your global statements about ADHD. They don't fit us. I'm completely serious. I dont need any explaining or analysis. I'm making a request, based on a pattern. Please just leave us out of your remarks.
Submitted by NonADHD on
Its sad. My wife is locked in, the negative things that come out of her is so opposite of when she is not stressed.
Locked in state, grudges, concrete
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
yep. All sound very familiar. Doesnt matter if its not real, or if things CAN change easily or with work - once my H thinks a certain way, thats it. There is no changing him. he has sabetoged himself with this thinking, and has limited himself and built his own chains - holding him back from any real accomplishment because he simple cannot get past the concept he *might* be wrong about something.
He thinks he is broken - so therefore why bother with doing anything to work on his issues. He cannot be fixed (even though compared to other in his circumstance, he seems not quite as bad off).
You cannot fight that - you just have to accept it and let them wear the chains, and walk away when those chains try to hold YOU back.
J - I am sorry - but again, you seem to be making assumptions and treating your wife like she is an opponent to be bested. It seems you are consitently looking for a way to invalidate her words and actions. And maybe I am not reading you right (for me its kind of hard to follow your through process some - no slam on you, everyone is just different), but it sure seems to me that you really work hard to redirect every situation to be putting the blame on her instead of looking at yourself and your actions and that you might be reading things wrong. Just a thought. Every ureaka moment you seem to have is you discovering some other "wrong" your wife is committing against you. Personally speaking - maybe if she is such a bad person to you, its time to just walk away?
Ureka Moments....Pay Dirt lol
Submitted by kellyj on
It's all come together here for me...just so you know. I want to address everything in the exchange I just read between the 3 of you here: NowOrNever, Doug and You Stacey (since I'm replying to you specifically). Putting this into context....I'm having a conference call with all three of you on board. Anyone else listening in...is just an audience but I'll pretend they're not even there like this is a private conference call between just the 4 of us.
Whew!! This is the most difficult thing I've found about coming here to the forum....sometimes you don't really know who you are talking to!! LOL But I think I just took care of that for the moment....I'm talking directly to all 3 of you as if the 4 of us are in the room together...but now I'm talking to just you Stacey...but addressing Doug, NowOrNever's comments and myself and the things I said. Boy....that can really get confusing?? LOL (anyone else is just wire tapping and eves dropping and they don't count for the moment...since this is a private conference call lol ...but it's Okay....you have my permission lol ...tooo funny lol )
Stacey....now I finally get it. Context is everything!! lol NowOrNever is actually right on target as she read me. I'm not the best always at making myself clear....but my opening comments about needing to process and wanting to get my thought down before I forgot since it was late and I was afraid that if I didn't just get them down right away....I would lose my own context to what I was wanting to say when I had a chance to think about. I was using my own post here...as a kind of memo pad and was writing my thoughts in short hand but completely aware that this is what I was doing. YES! And in that you were doing what everyone does including me...just reading my thoughts as formed conclusions as if this is the way I really think in real time.
I really am trying to problem solve here more than anything else. Almost everything I write is in an attempt to form a new thought and you are mostly witnessing the incomplete process of elimination and deeply going into my own thinking processes and searching for answers. What you are actually reading mostly....is my actual thought processes during this problem solving ritual I go through in my head. I am totally aware of the fact that this is what I'm doing. But in essence....you aren't? If that makes sense. This is hyper focusing by the way. I normally do not share these thoughts with anyone because I am totally aware of their singular one dimensional nature and their incompleteness. But the are tied to my emotions too...and I am applying my feelings to them.
What you can't know but NowOrNever intuitively picked up on....is the incompleteness and my own awareness of this stage of my thinking process....but nothing is concrete yet...and no conclusions are being drawn yet. I see my own process...and see where I am in my thinking and it's not complete or no final conclusion is made and it's just left up in the air and held there until later when I have a chance to finish.
This is almost like being in a trance state of consciousness as it feels like to me. I can play with this endlessly...and explore the vast amounts of memories and move freely around in time and pick a time...and put myself right back into the same thinking that existed...but being fully aware of the real time that I really exist in both at the same time. The epiphany came from a memory from that time in my life. I was there...in my own thinking again...and actually was in that child like state of mind of concrete thoughts and black and white thinking...but aware of the fully developed mature state of my that I inhabit the rest of the time. Hyperfocus...allows me to do this at will....freely...to explore my own thought process and come up with answers and problem solve this way anytime I choose. It really is like an instantaneous trace like...meditative state that eliminates everything...so I can time travel to any time in my memory....as if the future never existed.
I can't tell you how cool and fun this is to do sometimes. I can literally sit...in a chair...in an empty room...and entertain myself for hours. Like sitting in a movie theater of my own mind...and channel surf and time travel. Not just remembering the time...using "now" as my context of reference....but actually re-experiencing the time in a complete reliving experience as if watching the movie of my own thought process. How cool is that??
This is where I can't know what anyone else can do or know? But what I can do...is think: one dimensionally, 2 dimensionally, and 3 dimensionally...and separate each process and hold them as if they are on a split screen in my movie theater in my head...and then me....being the fully integrated thinker who is just watching my own movie....sit and look at the 3 part screen...and see all 3 of these individually and compare and contrast the images and the experiences...and use that to problem solve and get answers from....simultaneously...all at the same time with me being the 4th person sitting there watching myself..;with complete awareness of all 4 states being myself...all at the same time. Without assuming anything more....I would immediately assume that everyone can do this on demand just like me. Being aware of my past and present state of mind...and being able to separate 3 dimensions into their individual components allows me to dig into the archives and retrieve experiences (not just memories from the now state of mind) accurately to get answers when I need to problem solve. These are images that I retrieve (on the split screen)....and then recall the experience from each one individually while viewing all 3 in there entirely. And (me) being the 4 complete person sitting in my theater which might be considered the 4th dimension...with totally awareness of this while it is happening? Nothing outside of (me) even exists. I'm literally digging into the center of my mind in search of answers in the archives and pulling those images up and putting them on the split screen to examine....and this is hyper focus as close as I can describe it?
But I have to keep one thing in mind here as I'm saying this and this was what Now was saying to Doug as a means not to make gross generalizations. I was not always aware that I could do this. In fact...when I was in my own denial state and completely unaware that I could do this and know that I could.....these dimensions could be triggered and I would go back in time and not even know I was there. I might be in one dimension at one moment....but think I was somewhere else. Or I might be somewhere else...and think I was here. I had no awareness of where I was or which dimension I was in and I certainly was not aware of what I was doing when I would go into hyper focus or even know what hyper focus was? I had no context to myself or these thought processes and I had no control of this what so ever? This is a completely disorienting experience and it causes you to question your sanity sometimes without having any control or awareness of it. It can be kind of scary when you don't know what's happening to you and I equate this experience with part of being in denial as I have now begun to really understand it?
What is the most difficult thing for me to do now....is actually recreate the denial experience again since the memories of that experience...were so distorted at the time. That's why if I go into this trance like state of hyperfocus and explore around a little...I can pull up these mental snap shots images from my archive and then recreate or reconstruct the experience again and actually relive and it as it was...in the state of not being in denial anymore with total awareness that this is what is happening. It like having 2 simultaneous lives....living side by side but being able to integrate these two...but still keep them separate when ever needed...on demand....by going into this trance like state of conscious/unconsciousness...and still be aware of the 4rd person sitting in the room at the same time? If that makes any sense to anyone and not assuming it does? LOL
But I'm also not assuming that you don't either. I can't know if everyone can do this...or maybe no one and I'm just a freak of nature? ADHD is kind of a freak of nature if you stop and think about. I'm a Freak...what can I say!! LOL That's totally possible...but I'm not going to assume anything here. lol
And now turning to Doug....what I just described is real and I'm not making this up. I can do this any time I feel like it and in essense....this is what I do here a lot because I'm trying to problem solve a problem...and the problem here specifically...is trying to understand what my wife cannot tell me? Same as you my friend....we're both in the same boat on that one. But in the essense of what I hear NowOrNever saying to you....I wouldn't even be here if these things that I read and here people say about ADHD had any real adverse affect on me or took it personally and I'm not here to prove to anyone....what I know or don't know or shove prove them wrong. I honestly....do not care if someone says something that is not right about ADHD and thinks something differently than I know is true. It doesn't hurt my feelings even though sometimes I hear things that are offensive...but even then...I have no need to point that out or call people out on it. There is an overwhelming attentance here that goes mostly ignored by the attendee's which I also clearly see as something that is not a battle I want to engage in personally. All I'm trying to do...is figure out what my wife can't say or refuses to tell me...and understand why that is so I can reach here and connect with her. I don't have bad attitude or looking for a fight or confrontation and I really...honestly...don't care. I do care about my wife however. I can say negative things about her...but I wouldn't really appreciate someone else doing that as I hear Now saying this to you. I figure....I am intimate with only one person and that is my wife..and saying disparaging things about her...is kind of reserved for me only in that context...as I am understanding what Now is saying to you. "Sometimes when I angry with my wife....I might do this and that comes through a lot in my thought processes about here but as I've tried to say....these aren't things I share with her openly. She is not open to sharing these thoughts with me....which is why I come to share them here in order to get perspective and opinion. Just because I'm angry with her in the moment....doesn't automatically say I'm holding a grudge either. I really don't hold grudges for too long...however....I do get locked into thinking....which in referencing what I was saying about going back into time.....if I dig around long enough....I can put myself back into the same Lock of the past and sit and revisit it...in order to understand myself better.
My T just told me this recently and I really like what he said. In referencing being "stubborn". As he said it "stubborn....is persistence, gone bad." LOL I love that one...it's sooo perfect!! lol Yes indeed. Nothing wrong with persistence...until it goes bad and I think...getting locked into grudges is exactly what being stubborn is if you put it that way. I think that goes hand in hand with ruminating which is something that I do much less now....but did endlessly with all that anxiety that goes along with it. I've kind of learned to do this processing things as needed....to put and end to the endless circular ruminating in order to put that to rest by using this method in order to do it. 'Ruminating...is actually just worrying after all...and I hate to worry. It just isn't a pleasant experience. I use to worry a lot....but I don't any more. Now I process instead of worrying...but it takes some dedicated effort and some time alone to think things through in order to arrive at a place to remove that from my mind. This is what I do here mostly....and as you read me....it's coming from that context and state of mind. Once I get up from the computer....I return to my normal state of ignorant bliss again. lol My normal "duh" state if you will? LOL.
Okay I'm going to hang up now because I want to speak to Now about what she said privately while everyone else eves drops. lol
Submitted by NonADHD on
I never meant to point anyone out intentionally, not even accidentally. I'm just responding to my situation based off of perception and I never mean to point the finger. My home is in a mess right now so the last thing I want to do is point my finger. I'm trying to understand the thinking of my wife who has ADHD and it's pretty obvious based on the symptoms that professionals have labeled as ADHD. I'm amazed, dumbfounded, hurt, rejected by my wife's lack of empathy and understanding. I have had relationships where my ex would understand why I did something and never hold it against me. My wife, when she gets in this place see's me as some horrible guy, totally wrong but what can you say.
I appreciate what you wrote.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Submitted by kellyj on
Okay....everything you said makes perfect sense to me now. Going through my own processing in just thinking about lying and what lying really is (not what we're told it is) is a lot more innocuous that I think..most of us think it is. I just went back to that time in my life...and drew conclusions from that state of mind. The same one while I was reliving that experience again...and recalling the "words" that I remember. But now I can apply those words differently by remembering those same conclusions I use to get locked into. The ones that said.."just tell them what they want to hear...and keep what you really feel or know is true to yourself." As I was saying to Stacey and Doug.... I "use to" get locked into those thought patterns....but I have to dig around to find them again. And why? So I might gain some insight...to why my wife won't speak to me sometimes and recall my own distortions at the time. I applaud my wife for admitting she has them to me. I see her doing somewhat the same thing I do here in that she is actually speaking/thinking/processing all at the same time and much of what comes from her mouth is emotional and irrational because of it. I started thinking about the word irrational...and realized that what is irrational....is not the truth...and then working backwards in terms of the truth. Remembering what distortions felt like and having the disorienting feeling again and trying to reconstruct it to relive it...is my attempt to try and reach her an empathize with her which is impossible to do when being on the other side of it.
In terms of making everything about "me"....and "me" being the most important person in the room. I don't think what people think is a lack of empathy sometimes....is actually "me" thinking that "me" can't empathize with the other person. "Me" thinking....thinks it's the other person who can't empathize but really it's "me" who isn't empathizing well and has this all screwed up? Thinking in opposites kind of solves that problem in a hurry lol
It's not my wife's problem....is I'm not empathizing with her? And even though she makes it impossible to do sometimes because all of the interruptions of thoughts and fear and worrying, flack and unfounded fears she's throwing out....she isn't realizing she is her own worst enemy and actually blocking my ability to empathize with her but she doesn't realize it. She isn't realizing....all these "locks" she falls into...(traps in her mind)...are preventing me from entering and she is refusing to let me in by doing this and projecting this out as way to keep that door locked from entering out of fear. It's all fear...and she's afraid....but like the mighty Poo.;...she is totally aggressive and just chases everyone away including me. And I'm like Po....who has to pin her down and in attempt to calm her down which only makes her fight back more. But sometimes I have to and have no choice when she's that aggressive and comes at me like I'm some kind of threat to her or something. This is all in her mind....I'm no threat at all. The only way I'm a threat to her....is by saying the truth which is not what she wants to hear. That much....I know for a fact. The reason she does this....I applied to my thinking about lies...and why everyone lies. To avoid consequences. What those consciences are however...there is no way for me to determine unless she were to tell me and she won't even give the faintest notion of what those are and why? And from what I have come to understand....is she really doesn't know what her feelings are? Honestly? She doesn't know? Not that she undecided....but more just mixed up and confused? Even though...I get those undecided feelings coming at me straight out of her mouth and this really hurts sometimes and she has no idea why or what she is saying and can't see herself saying these hurtful things and doesn't even realize it or remember what she said. I'm up to speed on this much because I witnessed it that many times to finally understand it. It's hard to take ALL THE TIME on a daily basis when she doesn't even know what she is doing? And I know it will never stop until something interrupts her thought process and puts something else in there to divert it those "locks" back to normal again.
I don't mind sharing my thoughts here that involve my wife's family history and what little I've piecing together. This is just a theory of course and I have no way to know if this is true....but.....I do know the statistics on this...and they were shocking for me to hear.
What I remember was...something like 30% of all women...experience some kind of sexual molestation most commonly by a relative or family member.... in their lives by the time they are 16. Holy Shit!!! I never would have thought that myself personally. Why? I leave that up to you to decide. But something went down in that family...that involved her mother and father...and her mother had an intense hatred towards men for no apparent reason? I'm just putting 2 + 2 together from what I was told...and adding that statistic in there just as one possibility?
What I know from what my wife has told me...and what I witnessed myself...and the uneasy feelings I got from her mother (including her poor brother who was guilty before he did anything..... who now has an anger issues directed towards women himself ( his mother no doubt...but he can't see that and extends it outwardly)....what goes around comes around...in my thinking on this?
The message that my wife was taught...even though she doesn't agree with...is that you can't trust men because they only want one thing from you. Literally...their out to "screw" you over ....but subliminally....literally "screw" you and take advantage of you. That message got engrained so deep....along with my wife's own experience with being molested herself (more than she is willing to admit or share with me I think) by the same sexual deviants who appeared to be in her own family....Uncle I think she mentioned (her moms Dad's brother)...I think miscreants like this can poison the well for generations to come in my thinking about this?
And of course....I really am an innocent by stander here....with no information without any experience to give a some kind of guide to even gain any empathy let alone...understand it which I don't? I don't understand it...because I think it's perverted and I have inkling what so ever or thoughts on this...let alone consider doing it....to give me any reference to work from? I'm lost here and I'm getting no help from my wife at all?
I am guilty....before I ever walked through the door...and even though my wife on a cognitive level...knows all of this is wrong and beleives me when she's with me. All it takes is one wrong move and trip one of those land mines off and now I'm this guy....like all guys....who did this to her. Her feelings are lying to her...not me. And those feelings she buried in there so deep....she never wants to recall of remember them and just blocked them from her mind. But there still there. I'm a threat without understanding why?
She uses the word..."safe" a lot...and at first this made no sense to me. It might not even be that I said something...but just acted in a way or just made a joke about something without know this is setting her off. There is no way to predict this or do anything about it. But when I'm looking over my shoulder and wondering who she is talking too and I'm the only one in the room? This is not something that I have much experience with and have no idea how to handle this? How could I? These thought never even cross my mind? But as I hear her sometimes....I can read these thoughts and have no idea why or where they come from. These are the distrotions that she says she's aware of....but the very last thoughts to ever cross my mind...would be the ones she thinks I'm thinking? That is impossible to know...it you never think those thoughts yourself?
And now your being accused of thinking them from just saying one wrong word or making one false move and now.....you're that person! You can only empathize and be compassionate with this for so long...before you need to put an end to it...and get to the bottom of it since this is not something that is going to go away on it's onw?
None of what I just described...has anything to do with me...or having ADHD.
But...how she interprets my ADHD behavior....has everything to do with me and that's where your right and I'm getting a better picture of this the more I think about it. I did need that perspective you gave me...to help me piece this together.
But I'm not wrong...and my intuition is screaming at me...that there's something missing here...that my wife cannot...or will not tell me. That much ...I sure about....as well as being treated like who ever it is she thinks I am which is not only not fair....it's hurtful and disrespectful to me.
I don't know if she needs to believe something I'm not. Or is it....she needs to stop believing something I'm not?
All I know and what my gut tells me....is there's a dark secret in there some where and that secret is attacking me relentlessly at times. This is not my imagination and it's irrational as hell?
Thank you so much again....for giving me the exact piece I was looking for. I know I can't know what the secret is....but I can apply some of this too it...even if it's not exactly right. It is...what it looks like to me. That's all I know?
I also know one more important bit of info here that really puts this into better context. I've never been with a woman sexually....who appeared so up tight and nervous. Like I'm being watched with suspicion. This suspicious look is a strange one that I have trouble placing...and it's not just in the bed room either...but it's kind creep and it makes me really uneasy. That might tell you something but I have no tools in my tools box to do anything about this. This goes so far out of my normal range of thinking....that there is not way to reference any experience or thoughts to tell me what to do?
And just so anyone else reading this,.,..has thought otherwise....this is what I've been trying to uncover and the reasons why? Playing this kind of detective work...is way out of my league? But I need to have at least a shred of possibility to work from...to know where not to step to set the reactive anger off without knowing something?
I do Love my wife....but she is a hard person to Love.
Submitted by NonADHD on
Why cant you empathize with her, she's a woman, she has needs and wants. Why the stand off. Just because you don't need empathy or would apologize that doesn't mean she doesn't. Can you feel her pain ?
D...Did You Read My Theory?
Submitted by kellyj on
All women....do not have the experience I'm speculating to. I didn't give all the details...but if it's true....there is something more here than meets the eye? Would you have the tools and the insight to be empathetic here yourself? You might think you would....but do you know how a woman might feel and the effect of this kind of violation along with the reinforcement by a mother who had a similar experience? How would you deal with this kind of bias and distortions? How might you feel if you if you were guilty before proven innocent of a crime you didn't do? How could assume anything and even know...if a person doesn't share what they're thinking about you...because they know it's not true....but a part of them says it is? That part....is the protecter and persecuter punishing you for something you didn't do and have no way of knowing? How do you empathize that...or extend that to ALL women? Again....your making a gross generalization....and making it to be ALL women here.
This isn't about ALL women....it's about one woman....my wife? You dig?
Submitted by NonADHD on
Wow, I sense the anxiety and the attack. I'm sure it must be extremely hard to talk. If it was me, I would have a heart to heart, clear up any misconceptions, air it out ! A lot of woman would talk about it, and appreciate a guy who can go deep and have confidence and control in their emotions, not most, but in my experience, the ones who did not have ADHD, were able to talk. My lovely wife, cant do that. She just can't talk easily without being defensive. Its extremely easy for her to attack and become defensive.
D...You Will Just Have to Take My Word Here
Submitted by kellyj on
D....I understand and appreciate what you are doing. And it the same context....I've done the same thing myself so I really don't take any offense. How can I say this so will you understand. And I think....this is something that might bode well for anyone here to think about that there is just no way for you to know.
The talk that you are mentioning...I have attempted 100 times or more...coming at it from every direction one could possibly do. I am you here as you are saying it....and my wife is your wife as you are thinking of her.
This is something that so many do not understand about ADHD. It is something you are born with (there are some exceptions but the research is not definitive yet). It is within the ability to process emotions, logic and feelings and integrate them together. The is a delay but everything is working normally. Picture a pipe of one diameter which mental processing go through (executive function). This area of the brain.,..is not damaged. It is said....to be smaller than normal but it serves only one function as I understand it. It's like the switch board or central routing station for all other processing when they come together. I may not be absolutely correct in this description but the point here is that...the pipe diameter get's smaller if you picture plumbing. The water get back up with pressure behind it because the flow gets restricted like the nozzle at the end of hose. And what happens in this anolgy? The water comes shooting out at a faster rate than it did before...with back pressure building up behind it so the rate and speed and flow....all get affected. This is a permanent situation...however...over time, the brain adapts to this situation and normalizes to this imbalance. It's what you know all your life and this becomes normal. This is Nature.....not Nuture.
Now take a person is who is not like this...and they get into a car accident and the same area gets damaged. That person is now experiencing brain damage and this is not normal. The brain didn't develope around this drastic change for the entire lifetime and now....everything is all screwed up.
Back to ADHD. The part of the brain is not damaged...it effected. Which means....the effect this has will mimic a number of things that look like damage...or a host of Nuture problems that develop into most if not all the other disorders that one could come up with. As I understand this and don't quote me on this but...these other disorders could be likened to the person who suddenly has brain damage (they not but using this as an example). These other developmental disorder might appear later in life and they are influenced by environmental things. These are qualitative disorders....not quantitative ones like ADHD...and within that....ADHD appears to be rather unique in comparison.
So if you follow...ADHD is not imbalance for the person who has it. Everything is design and devolved around the effect...and everything is working normally and balances itself out over time. So in essence as I'm saying this...the imbalance is only comparing a non ADHD brain to an ADHD brain....for each person...they each hve their own separate balance separate only in comparison but both brains operate under a different operating system to compensate for each perspective balance.
To drive this point home so you can see what I trying to say is....pick an imbalance person with some kind of disorder like Schitzophrenia (just grabbed one here). That disorder is due to a shift or imbalance that was not there at one point in time and it comes on later in life. That would be considered here in comparison...an imbalance brain.
ADHD is not an imbalanced disorder per se.....it is an effected disorder that has it's own balance. When trying to integrate a person with ADHD with someone who is not....both people are balanced but the majority says...that the one with ADHD is the different one. In reality in relative terms....both brains are different and both are balanced.
Which means....everything is functioning normally. Everything works and there is no cognitive difficulties mostly as I understand it. (IQ, inability, capabilities etc..)...it's just things just work differently that most. There are negative aspects...and positive ones....but at the end of the day. A person with ADHD can change and be different any time they choose. That ability is not limited by ADHD and it is the one disorder on the list of ones...that is the most changeable and doable one to overcome the negative sides of this and mostly....the need is only to integrate with others. If you lived alone with no one else.....your fine. Everything works perfectly and there is no problem with any ability you can think of.
Distortions of reality...and emotional challenges can come from all manner of things ADHD or not so an ADHD person can have those too on top of having ADHD but not necessarily. That comes from Nuture....not Nature. You can have one....and you can have both. Or you can everything under the sun on top of having ADHD as well.
Which means....as you read about ADHD and children and even in ADHD as a list of problematic symptoms....this is where it starts. Once you'd corrected the things you need to correct....you basically like everyone else once you learn how to work around the effected areas which means...in other words....you can cure the symptoms so they're not a problem and now....you are no different than anyone else in a simplistic way of saying this. The symptoms that others don't like....can be corrected and changed and once you do this....you've fixed the problem. Not technically...but functionally yes.
So most who come here...are talking about someone who has yet to fix the problem. I on the other hand...have mostly done that already? Do you understand? If you are thinking of me...and speaking to me...as if I haven't done this yet and I am like everyone else who hasn't done the work that I've done to correct this (mostly...I'm not done yet so to speak)..you are making a gross underestimation of who you are speaking to...and assuming I'm like the description of ADHD you read in a list of disorders and not understanding that it's something that can be changed. Either a person has done the changes or not...and I'm not in the "not" category for the most part and am no different than most anyone else you might meet without ADHD....even to the point..with all the work necessary to make the corrections...in some ways....even more knowledgeable about it than a researcher who is researching it on clinical level since I'm the one actually knows what this is like from having it. I am the first hand account from experience not reading about it in the 3rd person out of a book.
It's why I thought about disguising myself and posing as a non-ADHD person coming here with the exact same criteria...but now...without the assumptions your making and thinking automatically...that I'm the one with the problem not my wife? In this case....my problem is mostly taken care of and especially the emotional difficulties and problems I experienced when I was growing up but....that's not happening anymore. I'm not experiencing gross cognitive distortions, inabilities in processing and certainly not cognitive functions and most importantly....the denial for the most part and if there are any remnants of it still ligering....they are really a problem for me?
Having said that....my wife is now the problem since she's the one in denial and she's the one expereincing cognitive distortions, emotional outbursts and issues and a complete unwillingness to be open and talk about and is extremely defensive and unwilling to have that conversation you were suggesting that I have attempted in every way humanly possible. If I were to come and pose as a non-ADHD person and present my wife as the one with ADHD....we wouldn';t be having this conversation right now just so you know. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of a number of other of differences and don't still forget and do all the normal stuff that you might expect...but the one thing I'm not...is overly sensitive, without the ability to process emotions or have empathy and certainly not without the ability to be compassionate and caring. Not of that is true. What is true...that I did have a lot of issues surrounding these thing....but just not anymore?
If those he see ADHD....and immediately assume based on one person who has it...and beleive it will never change....it's only becuase the person you are with....is refusing to do anything about it...that's the only difference between me and most every single person who comes here with someone in denial...and refuses and is unwilling to do the work and do something about it. That the only reason nothing ever changes and the problems remain the same...not that it can't be changed....they refuse to change it. This is a choice on that person part because it takes effort and work to do it.
In fact....I'll bet a money on it...that if came here and posed the exact same issues without altering them a bit...and posed as my non ADHD wife and present everything the same and modified the way I write and communicate....the advise...the assumptions and the support the help with immediately shift in my favor....literally over night and everything else being exactly the same. I would wager $1,000 on it...I'm that sure of myself here.
Perception, and perspective....has everything to do with this. I want nothing more than to reach through my wifes denial to connect with her....but I also want for myself...to be with a person who actually knows what they're feelings are and knows the difference between feelings and emotions and doesn't go off without warning and fly into a child like tantrum when they don't get their way....and especially....when they pull out the ADHD card and kick you in the nuts and cheap shot you because you've got a label they can use as ammo against you just like a little girl would pull on you....and then tell you it's your fault for everything that's just happened because they know they can get away with. That's just all projection and defense mechanisms and that can happen with anybody.
But this chicken shit.... impatient, little girl... who can't wait...and only wants things her way stuff is completely disrespectful and uncalled for. Cheap shots and hitting below the belt and knowing this is what you're doing is no different than anyone doing it no matter who you are and it is just like and over emotional little child...no difference IMHO.
J, I'm so sorry your wife is
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, I'm so sorry your wife is so hard on you so much. I could only dream of my husband being as open with me about his ADHD and learning MUCH about human behavior as you have. I pray thay she overcomes her fears (as it seems) about learning about herself. I don't know why some people stay so defensive and guarded about their lives when knowing some basic truths would set them free. (So to speak)
In another post, you asked me what it was that I wanted. (from my husband/marriage). I can boil it down to one word I think, and that word is communication. For we had zero when it came to figuring things out between us. And in my situation, the only thing I could come to, was that he didnt WANT to communicate at all, because I wasn't who or what he thought he wanted. But, he wouldn't or couldn't bring himself to just TELL me that. Denial, distraction, diversion and defensiveness covered over the truth for him, but it no longer could for me.
This was a hard reality for me to swallow, but it was better than living a lie.
I do hope whatever it is you hope for in your marriage is successful for you both. GOD BLESS
I'm Hanging In There
Submitted by kellyj on
My wife went to therapy alone yesterday...and she has returned with a better attitude. I completely understand this..and as I see in her own process.....I'm in mine. It hasn't been that long since I called on the floor about shaming me. That really did hit the right nerve I think. She has been somber and melancholy and even though this was part ploy I think....the ploy might have been sub-consious (more defense and default ) but she was thinking about it. That's all that counts. I didn't pry or push and didn't even ask what they talked about....but I have pretty good feeling I know what our T probably did in a general sense and he's very good and turning you around unlike me. lol What has stopped almost dead in it's tracks was her attempts to shame me into doing things. If I had to pick one thing that was really causing me distress...it was that. One stair step at a time and I can wait. Thanks for the support Dede...you are a gem:)
J, it seems as though your
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
J, it seems as though your brain is in overdrive (nearly incomprehensible comments and long even for you). Are you in therapy or taking medication? I'm wondering if some on-the-ground help would be appropriate for you these days.
Thanks For Your Concern Rosered
Submitted by kellyj on
There were concerns for a while...that what I was doing was flooding. In part...this may have been true but I was never boiling over in all this time except on a few occasions. What I realized when I took the brakes off....this is all me just hyper focusing and problem solving. If you ever wondered what happens inside an ADHD brain in overdrive hyper focus? I think you just found out.LOL
But in light of what I said to Dede...I'm hoping the pressure will be off (and stay off for a while) and my wife be more at ease. Lets hope so?
What looks like overdrive to you (is actually just run of mill hyper focus...garden variety for me) ...this is par for the course for me...I just don't usually write it down but I think it all the time what ever it is I'm focused on. Now you know. That should tell you something right there:)
We interrupt this conference call for a special announcement! ;)
Submitted by tfarmer on
I have not been on here in a while. Sorry to see the challenges you are having. You may remember my wife has adhd. Things have been going remarkably well for us. My wife had a really good handle on her symptoms, until recently.
She decided to stop taking her medication without mentioning it to me. I only found out when I asked her if she stopped, which she had the week before. The point is, I could tell. It has now been 4 or 5 weeks and we are clearly spinning downward into the adhd vortex. Daily arguments, defensiveness, etc. It is all coming back ... and accelerating.
We agreed to discuss when her symptoms started to increase in severity. As you might imagine, what I call the giant, the ugly spector of denial, is now creeping it's way onto our lives again.
I wanted to share my observation with you both from my experience and and reading through these posts.
There appear to be two primary drivers to my wife's symptoms. Shame, and processing.
She still continues to try to hide her adhd. Not from me but from herself. I know it is there and can pretty quickly identify it (not only in her but in others as well ). It is pointless to try to hide it from me. But she continues to try and cover it up. It appears she is less concerned about hiding from from me than from herself. She cannot let go of even the simplest disagreement.
For example, she was talking about bacteria the other day and said something about silica. I asked her what she was talking about. The word she was looking for was cilia. It took about a 10 minute conversation, and her verifying what I said online, to get her to agree with me.
She does this kind of thing quite often. My motivation in getting this straightened out is not to belittle her. It is so she will not do this in the future, perhaps in a more important conversation e.g. a job interview.
The surprising part of this is that some forty minutes later she announced "there are things called silica hairs".
A similar discussion we had surrounded the difference in the words acclimate, and acclimatize. Same scenario, only a much longer discussion. An hour after the discussion she comes back with her original premise that they are the same!
I could care less about the meaning of silica / cilia or acclimate / acclimatize. The issue is why do we have to spend all this time discussing these things and why can't she just let go of them? Her answer is it takes that much time for her to process things and, what is essentially shame. She does not want to be wrong again.
Admittedly these are stupid examples but they serve my point. These same conversations with a non adhd person would have taken no more than 5 minutes. Because of adhd, these conversations took nearly 3 hours!
Some of the descriptions you made about your wife sound very much like my wife's attempt to analyze me. I cannot speak for your wife but wanted to give you some food for thought. In my case I don't carry anger, or a grudge, or anything like that. I do not get angry at her because I hate my father or anybody in my distant past. The anger builds from having experiences like I have listed, and some much worse, day in and day out. It becomes absolutely infuriating that it takes a five minute conversation to agree that gold thing attached to the door is actually a doorknob. My response is to get the hell away from her for a while.
My two cents.
tfarmer, May I ask...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
why your wife stopped the meds?.....I am "coping" with an H who would not even try them....suffice it to say it is NOT going well for me.......he's FINE, can't you see? Not THAT bad......sweet Jesus.....
She said they make her feel
Submitted by tfarmer on
She said they make her feel like a robot. She also read recently that there is a risk of liver damage from them. Of course everything from aspirin to alcohol has that potential but I was not successful in convincing her it was a cya statement.
Thanks T-Farmer....Good Perspective
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm seeing this too....with my wife. I'm trying to remember exactly....but she just did this the other day? (and a lot in the past). I can't remember the word...but it was the same thing exactly. She definitely (not my hearing or not paying attention) said the wrong word to fill in between something else...that actually made sense to me as I heard her. And I responded in kind to what she said. And she looks at me like I'm off or something.( I learned to go back a re-say what I heard now ) When I did that...she said.."I didn't say that I said this XXX"...which changed what she said entirely. ( I wish I could remember) but none the less....I don't remember because I didn't try and correct her and just kept on moving and had that 5 minute conversation instead of the hour long one (or more with fighting about it) which never went any where but round and round.
YES!!!! lol You got it.
I don't do that any more...but she does all the time. I learned the hard way on that one. Yes....it's petty and trivial and a waste of energy.
The thing is....I catch myself doing this in little ways and it just happened this morning. I started a sentence...without the first part that actually needed to be said or it didn't make any sense. I do this at times and have gotten so good at watching and listening to myself...that I caught it and started correcting myself by the time my wife even had a chance to call me on it. And if she does.....I could care less? Oops. Keep moving...no big deal. I do stumble and trip on myself like this on a regular basis and I catch myself just as fast and don't even remember doing them anymore. It's so not a big deal so why the need to even hold onto those right? These aren't things that hurt anyone or are even annoying to me. It's not like forgetting to do something where someone else is counting on me. Those little time delays and slips on occasion...really no one cares about including me. I've become such a good self watcher...that I watch myself now without even having to think about it. I can't fore stall these little blips on the radar screen...but I have learned to watch for them and pay attention to them so I don't think the other person is the one who is out to lunch? lol Like I said...this morning...I caught it even before my wife had a chance to open her mouth to say anything. That's what practice and awareness will do for you.....it's all NOT a big deal anymore.
However....as I hear you....I'm thinking the same thing as you. I've been thinking this for a while now but I really am confused at times since she a different person....even compared my own suspect females in my family who I believe now.....have ADHD to a certain degree. My two sisters are so much not alike...but if I had to pin one down and see the difference....one would be inattentive...and one would be hyperactive like me.
But they're not like me at all....since....their women?? Before I knew this....I only know of one other woman with ADHD...and she's completely different than I am...but she has been diagnosed since she was very little.
As I just wrote here in another thread....I'm kind of going the Ocums Razor route and looking at the obvious first. My wife's mom was Bi-Polar.....but then again....maybe she wasn't and not diagnosed correctly? Who know!!! LOL
These symptoms can be so similar and over lapping that it makes it hard to figure out. But I've kind of ruled out me for the moment based on what I said...and know that it's something....but not knowing exactly what?
ADHD in a woman...or Bi-Polar? No way for me to tell exactly....but at the same time...why do I need to now for sure. If I treat her like I would myself and apply that to her....it's pretty much all I really need except on her behalf.
On her behalf....I think she could really get some relief if she could only get the right treatment. The fact that she might have ADHD...would actually be a blessing for me. I could be her coach in that respect...and she could be mine? (if she'd let me....thinking, not so much right at the moment but maybe someday lol )
The good news...is the reactively has really gone down too since I kind of put the hammer down on her which really seemed to work this time? And her normal morning grouchiness and moodiness I can see where she is really trying not to share that all with me. She only needs a 1/2 or so...and then she's Okay. I can read her well enough now...to look at her face and go the other direction!! LOL
If this is what this is all about....then I'm on it and can get a handle of it for myself too. All good news as far as I can see.
Boy....if she could get on the right medication now in light of what you are saying....it only gets better from here right?
And what's up with your wife going off medication? Man....when I go off....I know it. I start getting glimpses of the past and go straight to the pharmacy which is the only reason for me to go without?
What up with that? Smack her once for me...and tell her I said so:)
PS...Can't forget, I think my mom was the source in my family and she was a lot like my wife in a lot of ways symptom wise including the denial. Hard to tell exactly but I do know...aside from these symptoms...my wife is so not like my mother in any other way. mmmmm???
Thank you for putting that
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Thank you for putting that scenario into words. It is truly exhausting, like I need to know another language and can't relax in my own home. The constant splitting of hairs is infuriating. Can we live life with a little nuance? I don't require my close friends to always be explicitly explicit and we communicate just fine. My husband is like your wife. I call him my personal Rodney Dangerfield because he always grabs the wrong word... so when he wants to dissect my word choice, I am angry. The only other person I know who splits hairs like my husband is my boss and she is self admittedly bi polar. (hahaha, it just occurred to me, no rest for the wicked, right? All day, every day, right?) Sigh. the corrections aren't meant to be mean, more to say "is this what you mean, I'm not getting it? You said blah, but did you mean blah?" As a result of the processing, I hear a lot of "that's not what I meant" and "you're putting words in my mouth" when I am simply responding to what is being said. I can recognize intellectually that what he said may not be what he meant and he feels that I'm putting words in his mouth but the realization in my brain doesn't mitigate the emotional impact of these tiring conversations. God forbid I say something like "really,that's interesting, where did you find that information?" To me, that is simply, what is the source of your information? TV, you read it somewhere, someone told you? I use that question to validate the reliability of the information and choose how much credence I give it (just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean it's true), not to say "you suck and don't know anything" but it does open a real can of worms. I really struggle with the "right way" to put things so (a) things don't escalate and (b) he understands what I'm saying (and can't renege on the conversation later). I've become very skilled at being able to explain everything three different ways. Agreed as far as anger goes... I can be simultaneously angry at the specific here and now event as well as the general tediousness of dealing with ADHD, not something I'm holding onto for 20 or 30 years. (I'm not 25 anymore LOL ! ) Interestingly, my husband is the one who brings up things that happened 20 or 30 years ago for the reason things are the way they are. So... net result is I don't talk or initiate conversations very often. The outcomes are too ambiguous and I get a lot of 2 + 2 = 8 which leads to "say what?" moments, then I have to laboriously break down the whole logical/illogical argument. A linear brain and an ADHD brain may not be the best combination.
Yep... Einsteins Theroy of Special Relavtivety
Submitted by kellyj on
Might be easier to understand. LOL It's like the point the conversation goes south....is like a point on a triangle or pyramid. As it continues....the two diverging lines move further and further away from each other and the space in between (the triangle itself) is the exponential waste of time!!! LOL
V....I have to say this to you.....I was getting so frustrated in trying not to make assumptions and keep applying my wife as being nothing but seeing her as non-ADHD just so I could see things (as a control)....there was no control and everything was moving and I could not pin her down and myself at the same time?
As assumed wrong....so were many of my assumptions that goes towards the non-ADHD people who like you....were applying yourself to my wife and seeing it from that perspective as well as me which in this case....everyone was wrong in the speculations and assumptions getting made?
What I wasn't going to do was get locked into only one thinking...but you have to have at least one stationary object to get your bearings to start with.
Going back in time now. These endless circular communications....were the very things that were causing me to blow and get angry with my wife. Which lead me here....which lead me to this conclusion or at least....90% probability of one or the other. You say your boss is Bi-Polar? And she does the the same thing you H does?
And here I am....saying the same thing....one or the other....but 90% sure. That 10% will really be disappointing if I find it's something else!! lol (kidding...not expecting that )
But everything I've done to get to this place....has only improved things on my own...with a completely different understanding to go along with it.
I do have one thing in my back pocket that is the best source of all (not on my own)...but that's my T. He's been kinda cryptic lately with my wife and I together....but he's been pointing and dropping things I recognize and keeping me in the right direction. He knows me well enough to know....I'll take that and look stuff up on my own once he does that and I'll come back and tell him things I've read or heard and either nod or throw it back at me.
But he was giving me some credence lately...and not throwing it back. I will be asking him straight up and see what he says.
No rest for the wicked is right....but this wicked boy is going to take a needed rest and ween myself from this and take what I've learned and make good use of it. I really hope you can instill what I just said on your husband about learning how to catch yourself ( watch yourself and pay attention) since I really do this all the time but it takes that effort to get there. But what I was saying earlier about habits is absolutely true. Once you get into the habit of doing this...after a while, it gets easier and you don't even have to think about it anymore and it's just second nature after a while. It's a learning curve like anything else....the hardest part is right at the beginning.
All I can tell you about how to manage this better.....ignore it and don't point it out even when you know he's wrong as long as you can get what he's saying for the most part unless it's really important.
Look up "learning conversations" which is something I learned from Melissa Orlov in her class she offers here. That one really works with this and it seemed to work better than the cues in respect to not having to need them if you can keep the conversation under control.
The thing I said about repeating things back exactly as I heard them sometimes works too. At least I can stop her from continuing right when at the point of the triagingle before it gets out of control.
The other thing to keep in mind is that we(ADHD people)...need visual references and feedback constantly right in from of us to keep focus and attention of things. Feedback of any kind is really good no matter how you find it works.
And get an answer from him directly. If you don't hear a "yes....I will do this thing today at 4:00pm"...straight from his mouth. Or only get an...."uh huh"...or... "yeah"....or...."Okay." Forget that will ever happen (speaking for myself here). Those are kind of half acknowledgements that you said something. ( a sound from your mouth as in a noise of some kind lol ) What you said on the other hand...is questionable at best?
And what ever you do....don't do what my wife does with me. She ask me to do one thing at 10:00am. The she'll add another one at 12:30pm.....and then she'll add another one on top of that at 2:30pm.....and expect I can remember all those things together...and the times for each one. I don't know anyone who can do that and keep track of it....but for me, it's damn near impossible?
The hypocrisy of it all!!!! LOL
I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy I'n not crazy.......................lol
That's Funny - no worries
Submitted by vabeachgal on
... I don't give him enough tasks to worry about that !!!!!!
Well, I am confused
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I am confused as to why you would say on a public forum that you are choosing to ignore everyone's put but the one's you want to hear?
It struck me as odd.
I also can't seem to navigate what you're trying to accomplish . You are asking for insight, then basically justifying yourself.
What am I missing here?
With sincerity, Liz
Liz....I Just Caught Your Response
Submitted by kellyj on
I was confused....but not anymore. I think I already explained why that was so I just leave it right there. Two moving targets....is definitely NOT better than one. What do they call that...Einstein's theory of special relativity? OMG!!! No wonder that was complicated?? lol
My intuition was actually the one I was listening too....I know that didn't make any sense when you wrote this. Maybe now it does?
No, but I will just let it pass
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
As long as you got what you searched for, it matters not if I understand.