Hi everyone,
my boyfriend and I’ve been dating since March and we were uber happy and in love during the first 3 months. I felt like the center of his universe and, even though it was a long distance relationship pretty much from the beginning, we managed to get to know each other quite well thanks to Skype, Messenger and all kinds of other tools.
He had mentioned from time to time that he was a “bumbling boy”, that he had a hard time organizing his tasks and schedules, that his brain RAM was not as big as mine, that he had trouble with insomnia… Always in a charming and half-joking way but honest at the same time. Once he mentioned that he had been diagnosed with ADHD during childhood but it didn’t seem to be an issue now. I guess I should’ve listened more carefully back then but I wasn’t that educated on ADHD. He even told me that he cannot make friends as easily as he wishes and that he’s not good in keeping in touch with friends and family – sometimes he wouldn’t be in touch with his family for 3-4 months. Given his focus on me during those months I couldn’t imagine that he would ever be able to ignore me.
In the 4th month he suddenly stopped calling and texting everyday. He was super busy with his work (he’s an artist, and yes, he can live off it ;-) ) and he was surrounded by his Mom and her second husband who is verbally abusive against her. He was diagnosed with a depressive episode and given some tranquilizers. The episode lasted for about 3-4 weeks. I figured that it had been caused by his moving back in with his Mom, reliving a childhood trauma full of verbal abuse by his father. I was relieved to hear that he would soon move to London to pursue his master’s degree at an elite university – far away from that bad environment. I was also worried if he could manage to settle down in spite of his recent depressive episode, but anything would be better than that environment.
He moved there in July and we had a deal that I would visit him in mid-August. I could tell that he was very busy with his studies but we were back to normal: long distance but with almost daily messaging and calling. Then, one day before my departure to London he suddenly canceled on me. Saying that he was way too busy – of course, I understood that he’s having a hard time managing working and studying in a completely new environment, but I just couldn’t hide my disappointed. A couple of days later we talked this over via skype and when asking him why he cancelled on me on such short notice… he could hardly explain. He had felt overwhelmed by his schedule and panicked. And now he felt ashamed and disappointed in himself: shame and disappointment in himself are now clear verbal cues for me but back then I just didn’t understand why he gave himself such a hard time over one “misstep”. I couldn’t put the pieces together; i assumed it must’ve been due to his depression. He had promised that i could visit a month later, when his entry exams were over and right before he had to start painting for 4 exhibitions. (I had a very bad feeling about his organization regarding four exhibitions on top of his studies and commissioned work. But who was I to judge after a mere 6 months of dating?)
Well, 4 weeks went by, he passed his exams, and we ended up having a very bad discussion via skype: he completely lost his focus during our talk, overwhelmed by the passed exam and following paperwork for his visa, he started to remember his other To Dos, started to mumble how he might not have time for me, although he so badly wanted to see me… We got caught in one of those demon dialogs, where I kept pulling and he suddenly got all defensive. I just couldn’t shut up but kept pushing “so when can I come then? You said I could come next week…But you promised that...” I didn’t show my best side either: I pouted and nagged, I guess. I was just so disappointed by yet another broken promise. And he must have felt like a failure, again. He turned very cold and defensive. We kinda agreed that his work has priority one but that he would try to make some time for me. But we couldn’t “hug it out” and it felt as if the discussions wasn’t really ended on good terms. We both felt bad about the things we said. I apologized via message but he had already began to shut down. He told me he was sorry and asked me to wait. Wait for him.
That was almost 4 months ago. After that bad discussion he went into a tunnel, focussing on work, painting day and night while attending his classes at college as well. Within 4 weeks after the discussion we just texted once in a while until he completely cut me off. I haven’t directly heard from him for almost 3 months now. I’ve tried to reach out to him several times with messages and calls, but he ignores them. Well, he had told me to wait for him, hasn’t he? (at least I haven’t lost my – dark – sense of humor). Even if he reads them, he does not reply. The only connection I have left are rare mutual likes and even rarer comments on facebook and instagram posts – this is very 21st century ;-)
I can only tell by posts on facebook from his vernissages that he’s merely a shadow of his former self probably due to insomnia and working day and night in his tunnel. I now remember that he had told me months ago that he could “be like this” sometimes, that he really doesn’t mean to but somehow ends up shutting down. And he asked me to just ignore him until “it’s over” – I tried to figure out what “IT” could be. i started to read a lot on depression, anxiety and, finally, on ADHD. It all makes sense now thanks to Russell Barkley, Melissa Orlov and others’ books. I now see the pattern in his behavior and I logically know that he does not mean to hurt me. Nor does he mean to shut down. He had said that he wanted to become a better person for me and now I know what he meant with that. But it is still very painful and confusing when the man you love suddenly shuts down and shuts you out of his life. I feel like he went to a completely different planet. I know that he’s not even seeing his new friends in London but ‘hyperfocusing’ on work. And I’m worried that he’ll have a complete breakdown after finishing his last exhibition in mid-December. Moreover, I’m having a hard time at trusting him to come back to me like he said. Our relationship is still so young and he has kind of used up my trust for now. On some days I don’t know what to do anymore.
Should I do just as he said and how he’s used to cope with “it”: try to ignore him until he “cools down” after finishing his last exhibition? Until he comes back and out of his tunnel?
Or should I keep trying to reach out for him on a regular basis? ( I try to reach out him once every 7-10 days)
It is very hard and the whole situation definitely made me reach my limits at some point, well actually several points. But I’m learning how to take care of myself instead of focusing my energy on worrying about him. I also have a strong support network by friends and family with whom I talk openly about everything. So I do have the confidence and the will to work things out with him, also thanks to all the literature and youtube lectures by Barkley and Pera. And, after all, I still love him. I cannot save him and that is not my intention. I would simply love to be there for him, by his side, so that we can grow together as a team. He has so much to give when he’s not taken over by ADHD.
But… as long as he’s in his own world, I feel so helpless. I cannot reach out to him, not even to tell him that I now better understand what’s going on with him and that it is ok. He must feel so ashamed and anxious.
Sorry for my awfully long story. I hope I can find some understanding for my situation and, honestly, some reassurance that I’m not a fool to keep believing in him and us although things are so incredibly bad right now. Looking forward to hear about your own experiences and feel free to give me any advice or feedback – I can handle the facts way better than uncertainty ;-)
Jen
Insight
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
i didn't have the insight you do at 10 months. I married my husband at one year. I had vague worries, tiny little red flags, but we were so happy at times that I ignored them. If I had the insight you have, I would have waited to marry my husband. Because the loss, the grief, the stress, the PTSD, was not worth whatever I gained from our relationship.
As bad as it is now, it gets worse. The loneliness becomes unbearable. The destruction of self, humiliating. It takes a strong person to keep getting hit, and hit hard, again, and again and to keep getting up, with some sort of grace and keep moving.
The problem is, that it is incredibly difficult to stand by the side of a person with ADHD unless they want to stand by your side. Most of the time they are way ahead, or way behind, or in another life all together, none of which are anywhere near you.
Sometimes we we have a life together and do things together and cherish those moments, but more often than not (it goes in waves), we have separate lives. And the uncertainty and unreliability can keep you on edge.
Just my thoughts. I don't know you, I don't know him, but I guess it is time to watch and wait. Either he will come back, because he wants to, or he won't. And any coercion or guilt that comes from you will leave you both feeling unhappy or trapped. Let him be. Figure yourself out. Is this what you want for the rest of your life?
PS. My husband is a lot like your man. He isn't lazy or disengaged like some of these folks. He is full on, hands full, head deep into amazing things all the time. And I have to get on that train occasionally so I can see my husband, but As you have no commitment, no time invested, I would suggest you do otherwise. its not fun being the one who has to shout, "LOOK AT ME" all the time. It hard on the ol self esteem.
And some advice
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I gave another girl in your position. If you are independent (fiercely independent) and spontaneous and like constant change and adventure, go for it. If you are looking for love, support, and stability, not so much.
Thank you!
Submitted by jen6587 on
Thank so so much for your thoughtful reply. It is an eye-opener indeed, and not just because you do give balanced reasons on whether to stay or leave my ADHD partner. You really got to my core by pointing out "ME": what do I want from my life? What about my needs? Do I want to put my plans, needs, pains on the back burner for the sake of the – probably very few – ups with him?
I became so preoccupied with his problems, ruminating about how I could support him… so that I completely forgot about myself. I noticed that sometimes I got angry and thought "why doesn't he care for my needs?" And now I have to admit, that even I myself did not care for them in the past couple of weeks.
Thank you. I love him very much but I guess I should take some time to figure out what I truly want and need. While he is in his tunnel anyway, I might as well sooth myself and tune in with myself instead of trying to pull him.
What Side of the Fence Are You Even On Here?
Submitted by kellyj on
DO......What you stated as advise has some major discrepancies in it? I'm going back here because this triggered my thoughts on this because there are incompatible or incongruent variables in what you said here and this is the quandary or paradox in any dynamic system? In other words.....what you are saying is not possible unless certain conditions are met? And within those conditions....there is a "conflict" that is unreasonable which remains constant unless you have a fixed constant or variable to work from? The other way to say this is......a common relationship or things in common with each other in any system as put? I think what you just did....was actually advise something here that will inevitably lead to failure of the system as the end result? What you were stating here are "goals" as far as what you want....versus what you don't want by omission of the alternative or synonymous goal in contrast to just one variable versus the other with no means of path to get there? In other words.....you can't play both sides of the fence and what you are suggesting is just that which won't work?
I can say this simply another way......"what is possible?"....and ....."what is not possible?"........and "how do you get there?" So in speaking in these terms.....playing both sides of the fence is not possible.....if there is going to be an equitable or fair result as the net results on one side of the fence? Or ....what is "equilibrium" and "stability" on the other side of the fence in any system with more than one variable and what you are proposing is trying to combine the two and this is not possible and is a recipe for failure within the proposition itself? Stated again differently......you have to make a choice and "pick" one or the other but you can't have both and this is actually what you are saying? You can have both....and it will work or not fail and that's not possible....so why even attempt to make this work...right from the get go since it can't work? That's the problem?
So here are the variable you are proposing in creating a system of two people working together without conflict which is the goal is it not? Saying as the stated goal...you do not want conflict which will only create ambivalence and therefore....unhappiness which is what you don't want right?
So under what you don't want is:
-Ambivalence between two ethics in terms of care for others and self care
-Conditional Love which is not Love at all? Conditional Love is said to have "strings attached" or is by condition only in that if the condition is not met satisfactorily then Love is withheld or not given at all? You might say I Love my new car......but that is not Love? That is....a condition of the car being NEW versus your old beat up car which is expendable now...since you have the new one to replace it? That isn't Love in respect to the kind of Love you want is it? To be expendable and replaceable by the new model once it arrives? As in....a doctor who marries a woman to get through med school and all the hard times and struggles....and then trades her in on the new model trophy wife once he reaches a certain income level and stability in his career and the "old model" is just the "squaw"....if you wer to use this scenario to show you what conditional Love is? If this is what you want as you goal.......then this is the type of Love you are talking about? One might choose this type of conditional ( NON LOVE ) or no Love condition.....either as a "Gold Digger".....or......"A Callous Philanderer".......in a materialistic way if this would be the two variable you want to be yourself in this type of system with this kind of Love? Highly unstable and temporal with no other Assurance of anything except within the condition itself and the conditions or goals are completely independent and indifferent to each variable together within the dynamic system? This is based on "independence" as said...in the exclusion of the other variable or person completely and not based on the other person as a person....but what that person can do for you in a selfish "materialistic" or sexist "sex object" based way showing you the two independent goals of one or the other in this type of system?
This is an independent "closed system" which is one your are proposing when you are speaking of "independence" within a dynamic relationship between two people and this is the inevitable or likely results as we all know this one to be since we all know this by the net results we see and it does exists....as we now iin some relationships? The results within the goal here as stated...is based only on the value that the other person has as seen within the condition ie: Value upon physical beauty and sexual attractiveness that decays over time therefore is self filling to fail due to aging and the "decay" over time in physical beauty? This is not a "giving relationship".........it's a "taking relationship".....which is clearly not Love or the one most people want? Some people want this..and some people do just fine with this but as a choice and they choose ahead of time...and both sides know the "rules" since this is a "rule" based relationship stated as a condition by very definition?
I just wanted to point this type out first by saying.....I have my own personal opinion about this type of relationship.....and I find it morally bankrupt and the epitome of unethical or unfair since it is a closed system that it's stability is defined by these conditions itself? A closed system is said to be "stable" but only by the conditions remaining constant over time? And since a relationship is said to be dynamic and in motions or moving.....then this is doomed to failure right from the get go? So why then choose this if there is no possibility for it to work or be stable at all which it is highly unstable and therefore invalid if you want stability as your goal? I'm going to assume for the moment....that you or others who are here....do not want this type of system or relationship and that is not your goal? But still....you can't cherry pick from this side of the fence and you have to pick a side and remain on one side or the other? You can't have this one....and have the other type both...since as I said....playing both sides of the fence is not an option....and you must choose and decide what you want? This side or the other side....you can't have both?
So to say the word "independent" in the same sentence ( or inferred here by you by your alternative of these two proposals you made here ) you would be right in that this type is highly unstable and subject to change ( inevitably and predictably for sure )...as I showed here....but that has nothing to do with being "spontaneous"....or "adventure" which are positive qualities not negative ones
In terms of "spontaneous and adventure"....is the opotiste type of "stability" as you are including it here? This type of "stability in an "open system" for example would be "no change" or could be defined as"stagnation","decay", diseased or no growth? Stunted, stuck, ground hog day.....etc etc etc......
The opposites or ( antonyms ) of "spontaneous" is said to be "preplanned"..."premeditated"...."intended"..."predictable"...which atomically includes the notions or idea of....."certainty" and "assurance" "safety" and "control"......based on these measures of control? The problem with open systems to begin with...is there inherent uncertainty or instability without some means to measure or monitor the system with some set of controls introduced to stabilize this type of system? And now other conditions are require for stability here which are all forms of external controls put in placed to reduce uncertainty? This type of system autoamatically involves "risk" and so...to reduce "risk" and "uncertainty".....control measure must be put into place as a "fixed constant" order to reach a stable equilibrium? Your furnace in your house is an open system...since without a "thermostat" ( the fixed constant and means to monitor and control the furnaces function ) the furnace would just turn on and run and never stop? That's a good example of an open system and the required means of fixed on control which is said to be "automated" as in the thermostat in order to maintain it. It is an asymmetrical relationship since the thermostat will only turn on....if the ambient temperature in the room reaches a certain point...and it will on but only then as needed. One might say....'as needed automatically" which is the thermostats job? With no thermostat....the system runs......"out of control" as far a furnace is concerned? The other option would be without a thermostat....would require you to turn it on and off .....as needed...to control the environment or temperature in the room and do it...."manually" as said?
The problem here is....people aren't thermostats...or fixed "constants" and don't work automatically? People are "manual" creatures and are infinitely variable in there intentions and there goals from on or the other? Which means....by nature......some external control is then needed to maintain the system and monitor it and if you have two people...and only the need for one thermostat together......this condition is said to be "dependent" on one or the other to control the furnace in this example? So this system is has conditions that need to met...or the system is out of control which means......stability again....is dependent upon conditions? This type of relational dynamic is doomed to failure if the conditions are met...."equally" between all the variables or people in it which is inevitably "unbalanced" and therefore....."unstable". And from which....co-dependence then is the net result of this type of system....which by it's very nature...is unbalanced and out of control to begin with? The system itself is said to be independent but an open system which requires a 3rd element or variable added in order to control it? And since in a dynamic system which is constantly changing ....as "fixed constant" will only lead to decay and stagnation if it is not constantly monitored and changed along the curve of the dynamic so stability itself...is said to be dependent or dependent ON right from the get go out of hole to begin with? This is an "either"..."or"....type risk situation and uncertainty or certainty is variable as well and there is no guarantee for stability what so ever...in this type of dynamic system? In other words.....in order to "make" the system stable.....some means of external control is mandatory of the system fails or runs out of control? That is the inherent nature of an open system right there?
So if you want to have a co-depentant relationship....then this one would be your choice but I don't know anyone who would choose co-dependence....which seems obvious to why so many people who are in crisis here on this forum itself? This form is the only evidence you need to show why this is a poor choice to make? And again....you can't pull the elements of the other system into this one and try and combine them which goes right back to what is already not possible in the original stated goal: Can't play both side of the fence. That is the only variable that is not allowed since that is unethical and unfair right from the start? I could say it another way.....that would be "cheating" and therefore...."unfair". In fact....."cheating" is inevitable as the result to compensate in this type of relationship from out of the hole to start with which is why this is doomed for failure and unhappiness by BOTH parties independently of one another and both people are out of balance and there is no equilibrium. This would be said...to by a "highly unstable and volatile" condition as a dynamic relationship or system...as said?
So DO.....take a closer look here? You want stability....but neither choice you are suggesting can ever give you that? It's impossible to achieve without conditions in either one? And since there are conditions....then that means the Love in conditional and that goes right to what I was saying. Conditional Love.....IS NOT LOVE AT ALL!! End of story? You're not getting either in either one you proposed? No Love, No Stability, Independence, co-dependence, control by external measure and monitors which have to be applied manually, inequity, imbalance, unfairness, lack of morals or ethics.....the list goes on? And as far as support goes.....where does that fit into either one of these two types of "dynamic systems"? You either have "chaos" or "rigid controls"..or "complete"..."indifference" in a "parallel existence" ....."instability"...."risk"...and ...."uncertainty" as the end or inevitable ..and predicable result? And NO LOVE anywhere in sight? Why would anyone "choose" or "pick" this or think it would be a good suggestion for anyone? Not a rhetorical question but it could be as food for thought?
I do have answer for this....but I will save that for later once you've gone trough what I said and see where this is impossible and cannot get the desired results you want.....ever? This is doomed to failure....from the first step in the door on both accounts and is a no win....catch 22.....condition of absolute certainty of conflict or incongruent and ambivalence which is already stated as what one might assume "don't want". At least I don;t want this so I might assume others don't either...but to say...some might choose this and be perfectly Okay and but it still a choice and must be discussed and agreed upon ahead of time or this is a complete break down and dysfunction otherwise to either system. Total..anc catastrophic failure is almost inevitable which is the opposite of "Stability" and of course.....NO LOVE what so ever? This is a Loveless relationship...in either choice so I can't see anyone picking this...unless they want no Love or Stability in their lives which is the only thing that is really possible? I'm not going to assume or judge anyone here if they picked this and made that decision by choice...but I thought it would fair to include the results and probability of all these things coming to fruition in either choice you make?
I was just sitting there going....why would anyone want this or choose this....let alone....advise someone to do this..and think it's good advise? Everyone is always free to choose and these are certainly options for anyone if this is what they are most comfortable with in being in a relationship? I'm just saying for myself....this would not make me comfortable and quite frankly....I would be extremely unhappy under any condition...where Love and stability are not an option that's all? And trying to fix this by playing both sides of the fence.....will lead to disaster and is even worse....than picking either one of these two....because that would be cheating...and totally unfair right out of the hole. Blatantly I might add which is why it's not even an option to begin with?
Win /win win /lose.....lose / win pass. Those are your only options....and win / win is not one of them? That kind of simplifies it for me...and pass would be my only option or choice with either two options straight up? If I were given the choice? And if I wasn't given the choice....then that would be deceitful with intention....and kind of "oblivious" or just plain "ignorant" with no intervention at all? By the numbers with all the cards laid out on the table where everyone can see them?
Caveat Emptor still applies? Let the buyer beware and no returns for not reading the label ahead of time? The only fault in that lies with you every time and you can't blame anyone else...for making this choice and then saying later....."oh....I didn't mean to". Can't jump from one side or the other...and say...."oh....I didn't mean to"...or....."Oh I didn't know any better? " which would be the only thing a person could say....by no ones fault of anyone but their own ...after the fact? Unless you are a victim? A victim would try and blame this on the other person but that would be a refusal to take responsibility for making either one of these two choices and then saying...."it's not mhy fault.....he/she didn't do what they were suppose to do or should have done? No could have would have should haves or do overs......there are two choices to make here......and you were the one who picked it in either case? No one put a shot gun to your head and made you choose either one of these but my original question still applies? Why would anyone choose to do this or advise someone else to make one of those two choices....I might add since look at what you will get.. and what you won't get with either one? And look at what you want?
I don't get it.....but that my personal problem I guess?
J
More Cards and More Dimensions on the Table
Submitted by kellyj on
I wanted to do the "Math" as they say....and lay more cards on the table her so everyone can see them out in the open? In mathematical terms......to start.
Independent variable or expression as in............1 That is an isolated indenpendentt variable as in the letter "I". So "I" is always independent of any other person or the number "1". It exist alone and is not dependent on any other numbers to form and equation and there is no relationship to any other number and expressed as an "integer"....or "whole number". There is no such thing as a "fraction" when dealing with people as in a "fraction of a person"....to a person is always a whole number of integer always and is as said....."independent".
1 + 1 = 2......is a linear equation and is one dimensional since it simply states.....A - Z....in a straight line and that's it? It has no volume or substance? No contours or any other defining characteristics by it self? You can only move....forward or backwards in a straight line which is why it is One dimensional since there are only two variables and only two options to choose from? Black white, good , bad, right , wrong, forwards or backwards. That's it as far as a straight line from point A to point B are concerned?
1x + 2y = 2 is said to be an algebraic equation or is two dimensional expression. A square or plane is now possible in 2 dimensional space? It has no volume but is flat and no contours and those are the only two possibilities in 2 dimensional algebraic equations like this? You can now move side to side, back and forth, and in any direction or angle along a plane in space but there is no depth since you can't move up or down and is flat so those are the only options in a confined space or box (square ). A piece of paper or a marriage license is all this is good for but it value is only what the paper is worth which is meaningless and shallow with no substance what so ever.
6a squared....adds volume to a flat square and now it becomes a cube or complete box in geometric terms...but as said...is not complete without boundaries or defined lines to complete the outer perimeter of a cube which is now moving into full 3 dimensional space? So geometry is incomplete with out vectors or vertices included to make a complete cube with defined lines?
Now you have a box....in 3D but it only exists on the same plane as x y and z and cannot be tilted or moved out of postilion if it were to exist free on constraints either up or down and side to side. The cube is 3 dimensional....but it can only move side to side....up or down in a level position with no angles what so ever on the horizon or plane of x and y.
So now....you have a box or cube....but it can only move back and forth and side to sideand up and down in a level position only at any given time and is still restricted in it's movement along 2 planes of existence and that is all that's possible ever?
So if you are trying to do math in the reality of free space or unoccupied space where the box can move in all directions and angles in any direction as needed.....you need to employ Calculus....in order to truly have a free moving object in free space and time which is expressed as an Algorithm. An Algorithm is said to identify any one point in space and time anywhere in the Universe and give you the coordinates to do so....free at will? It also allows a box to be modified to any shape or contour you want which is the only way to draw and asymmetrical object with contours and volume to complete a 3 dimensional picture that can move in any direction in time and space and has no restrictions to go anywhere in space that is unoccupied or blocked or restricted?
I can't even put an example of an algorithm here since my computer doesn't have the symbols to do so and for example sake lets just say it's a complicated multiple step equation to define any non linear contoured object in 3 dimensional space that is fee to rotate and move in any direction un restricted?
So speaking in terms of dimensions and the word we exist in.....3 dimensions is the minimal requirement...for all objects whether living or not as far as defining what it looks like on the outside only but is free to move in both time and space independently of another object. Rock...is three dimensional and you can pick up and throw it....so that is about as far as a description that 3 dimensions will get you? Where and what position it's in.....and much ( volume ) how high( temperature or the like ) how far ( as trajectory ) how much how many ( quantity ). So in terms of the physical only....this is all you get in 3 dimensional space or thinking? Those are the only answers you can find from 3 dimensions and what things look like on the outside and what you might get from the equation itself bare minimum and a rock would be included along with a human are far as this will take you?
You don't even get to what's on the inside of something until you go into the 4th dimension at the very minimum which is still could be a milk carton that is hollow...but now you get to see the inside? That's are far as you can go in 4 dimensions of space and time?
So in terms of dimensional space and humans are concerned....if you were to use the math to see what that person is like or what you will get.....this is all this can tell you and nothing more? People can live just fine in 4 dimensions....as far a food shelter clothing and basic needs are and the how where when why and how much are concerned? So it that is all you need from a partner or marriage....then 3 dimensional thinking or even 4 dimensional thinking is all you need to know? Cave man make tool....cave man no fool.
So to expect Love as part of your marriage.....Love cannot be found what so ever in any of these dimensions and the most primitive of them all as far as two people are concerned is two dimension forming or algebraic equation on a flat plane going forwards or backwards and side to side but no up or down or lateral movement anyone other than moving in straight lines? 2 straight line....but you are stickled by Universal laws of both time and space and that's all you get?
So as far as having a partner or marriage goes...and all you need is money, shelter, clothes and food ( the basic needs )....you don't need a husband or wife for that.....anyone warm body will do? And if you want that body to look good too...add the fourth dimension to it for good measure? So if that's the goal and that what you need and this is where support comes from.....who needs a husband or wife then when you just pay for it or buy what you need in a barter or exchange? You don't need Love at all because Love is not support...support is someone doing it for you...because you can't do it yourself? You don't need Love for that.....only a need and desire. A man servant, maid, prostitutes or boy toy...would work fine for that as well? You don't need Love or a spouse for that...all you need is money or simply the desire for those things which all you can get when you do the math in the real space and time of reality?
Which why personally.....my own thoughts on this is....why sell yourself short and make this your goal when there no possibility for Love in the until you get to the next level and if you never get there....who's fault is that and who's stopping you? As far as I can see by doing the math.....Love and Support do not even go hand in hand....you don't Love for support...all you need is money in a materialistic way.....or simply to survive on this primitive level of existence? So if that's your goal and this is all you are aiming at.....where does the Love come from...and what do you even need it for?
J
I don't understand what you have taken offence at
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
I usually follow you pretty well, but this time I don't know what has you screaming codependency and victim.
Perhaps you are confusing my story with her story.
She has not chosen to commit yet. I am just giving her the advice I would have given myself four years ago. I get it, buyer beware, and that is why I am still in my relationship, conditionally loving him (not accepting abuse, drug addiction or infidelity, which have been my boundaries from the beginning, that he is well aware of).
I think maybe you put more weight on the terms "love" "stability" "independence" and "adventure" than I do. These things are not mutually exclusive. A relationship with someone who has ADHD is likely going to result in a more adventurous life than one with a partner who does not have ADHD and the non-ADHD partner is going to live a more independent life. And you are right, a relationship with an ADD partner is not devoid of love.
For example:
My husband and I do not share finances.
I accept the fact that my husband is going to spend one week day, maybe two and maybe two weekends out of four with me. I accept that we will never be a traditional family that is home every night for dinner together.
I accept the fact that if my husband tells me he is going to do something with me, that I should always have plan B in the back of my head, because there is a 40 per cent chance that it won't happen (and that is after he is working on his reliability, it used to be about a 75 per cent chance).
I still love my husband. We have a loving relationship. Our relationship is becoming more stable because I am accepting who he is at heart, even though that is not who I married (hyperfocus). I am not being a victim. Or codependent.
However, I never had to make those mental shifts in relationships I have had in the past with other partners. Things that came naturally with those relationships had to be explained, outlined, worked around in this one.
And that is fine, now, but it took a lot of work to get to that place. And I am not blaming my husband for that. I see my own contributions and have freely admitted my own mistakes.
I will read through your posts another time to see if I can figure out what is bothering you about what I wrote. It seems to me that the whole basis of this forum is that having a relationship with someone who has ADHD is different that's someone who does not have ADHD. There are good and amazing things, there are things that are more difficult.
I don't think I would marry an ADHD partner if I wanted to settle down, have kids, live in a four bedroom house in the suburb and be a stay at home mom. Fortunately, I don't want those things. His kids are grown, my daughter is 17, and as a single parent, adventure and independence are the things I am craving.
Her boyfriend sounds a lot like my husband who is an amazing person who has accomplished many things. Those accomplishments have come at the personal expense of a lot of his relationships - friends, children, family, partners - who get tired of constantly being lost in the shuffle, because they are disappointed that he didn't take the traditional role of husband, son, father, etc. Yes, I guess that makes them victims (although they really didn't get much choice in the matter, it was like it, or lump it, and universally, they have chosen to lump it, although stay involved in his life in a very minimal way).
People want different things in life. I am just asking her to figure out what she wants before she continues. And if you are saying that anyone who expects anything from another person in a relationship is codependent, then I can't help you. Otherwise, why go through the whole process of life long commitment/marriage/etc.? You obviously have expectations of your own wife, otherwise you wouldn't be so frustrated by her choices.
Again, I may have completely misread what you wrote, and maybe you are interpreting my post from your own particular set of circumstances. And maybe we will agree to disagree. I can love my husband, as he is, right now, but not unconditionally commit to "love" him in the future. Who knows what the future will bring? Drug addiction, abuse, infidelity? Do you have to love and commit to all of that to say that what we have now, is love?
Again, I will read your post, but I think sometimes if you chase every nuanced trail in your brain in the end what you have is a tangle, that is lost. It may be truth, because you have followed A, to B, to C, but in the end, what you have drawn is something that is just not compatible with what existed in the beginning. There are some basic tenets that give structure to life, relationships, human interaction, and civilization. All is permissible, but not all is beneficial? All is possible, but not really?
thank you @DependentOrigination
Submitted by jen6587 on
for jumping in. I was utterly confused today by those other two comments. Thanks for your calm and clear words. I'm definitely not a victim, nor is he. x
Do Backup....No Offense Taken on My End
Submitted by kellyj on
That wasn't an angry rant on my end and the last part that I included was in association with the Caveat Emptor....let the buyer beware. What I was attempting to do however...was putting the reasonability in one place in speaking about blaming or accusing anyone but ( ones self ) in a general statement not specific to you or anyone here?
What I was saying and it did have to do with the advise you were giving? Was to say...that when the entire system is broken...you can't fix one part and think this will do any good? Those two choices as I was running this down...was to make a point..and I was reserving that until you ( or anyone responded with the solution as I said? ) The third option which is really where I was going with this?
And I am being serious here in what I see as a problem since if one is a win / lose...and the other is a lose /win...then neither option is good or a real solution if it only works for one person in a relationship and not the other and as I see and...and have experienced this myself personally.....there is really only one option where it's a win win for everyone.
Healthy Interdependence....not dependence, not co-depedence, not independence which all have their down sides. The first example I gave was in relationship to an independent type relationship with no common ground as in: sexual attractiveness as a "sex object" on the mans side ( or trophy wife )...and "gold digging" materialistic motivations for a woman...for a rich man or a one with lots of money for the counter part? This is a parasitic relationship actually and like I was saying....conditional to change or with condition attached? I could say this another way...marrying for money..and marrying for status and upward mobility and in a parasitic way? It is a taking not giving type of relationship where both parties are literally "sucking off' each other in a parasitic since the motivation isn't Love...the motivation is....what can I get? That isn';t Love...that's a business arrangement and both are selling out...and basically prostituting themselves? Real Love is always unconditional....anything other than that....is simply not Love? That type of Love...is the Love of......something? But it's not the person and more directed at as an "object" in both case for sure?
And the other type I tied to illustrate...is base on dependency in some form even if not co-dependent where each person is just part or that fraction of the whole ( 1/2 and 1/2 ) a whole person....which has it's down sides too. That is actually more of what I was saying since that is what is most common anyway? Old school.....but out of date and problematic now at this time in history?
So with either one...some one loses and someone wins or it become a trade off and both people have to sacrifice something of themselves in a way that is actually betraying themselves or hurting themselves more than anything else? The point of not leaving any door open there at the end...and putting the blame right where it always belongs....with ( you...as in all of us ) who are trying to find solutions? You can not control another human being or try or coerce or manipulate to get them to do anything? The only power you have personally...is within yourself to effect change for yourself...so it's worthless to point fingers or blame anyone else any way....because even if they had some responsibility that they were failing in.....only you can change yourself and make your own situation better for you despite what your partners issues are? That is taking 100% responsibility..and putting the ball right back in your court and focusing on what is possible...instead of what's not possible..and wasting your time doing it that way? So no matter what....that is all about the past or past event anyway and you can't go back in time to repair the damage that's already done?
Moving forward and looking to the future....the answer I gave I am confident enough in...to say that this really is solution for the future since you can't fix the past since it's dead and gone anyway? There is no way to be a victim...if the past doesn't exist and if you are only looking forwards and not backwards...you will never have to worry about being a victim ever? If you had no memory of the past and you only had right now and then the future....a victim can't exist...without the past to work from? That is literally impossible to do I to be a victim without a past ) ...so why do it in the first place...it will never serve even if you're not one now?
Healthy Interdependence....is a win / win for everyone and it really is the only option that has no negatives included. And.....there are no conditions involved what so ever....which means all that's left is Real Love ( unconditional Love ) with no contingencies, no conditions and no decencies what so ever? All that is left...is unconditional and each person remains autonomous...and independent as you were saying? And the thing with interdependence...then need for support.....no longer exists?
This is not the traditional marriage old school format....but is a better way to go...if you want to avoid the issues of the past? I was intentionally leaving that out...since I didn't want to pose a question...and then answer it myself? It was missing something as I said...and that was this third option and I'm sorry that got confusing and yes....convoluted. LOL Working on that as we speak....I'm going to be editing from now on....just to get the verbiage down? Sorry about that...but still...I wasn't offended or being defensive?
I did want to say one thing to your original comment however? I am pretty fiercely independent myself....and with only those two choice to pick from...I would not be happy with either one but especially the one that is parasitic like that since I just can';t see any Love at all....when there are conditions or contingencies mixed in there to screw everything up? I think this is where it got screwed up in how I approached this since....as I read what you said....I read independent....and then 'spontaneous and adventurous"....as the only alternative to???? Dependent type or possibly co-dependent type relationships....which without thinking about this any further....the only ones where the word "support" actually fits at all? It definitely doesn't fit in a parasitic type where both people are only sucking off each other and no giving is involved in terms of REAL Love....and not a malignant or bastardized version of it where those types of conditions prevent real Love from ever happening? If there are strings attached to the word Love in any way.....then it's not Love and something else instead? Love of.....or Love to be......or Love this.......but not just I Love you.....and no matter what happens...that doesn't change?
Think about it. I love you now when your all hot and skinny and young....but I will stop loving you or not love as much...if you get fat and older? Is that Love? No?
Or...I Love you now when everything is great and you have a job and make lots of money to support me....but now you got fired and have no money...so I leaving you for someone who can support me because I don't love you any more? Is that love.....absolutely not!
In any case you can think of where the word Love is involved....the Love of things can change....I Love you never does with the changing seasons and the tides and remains the one constant? If it's conditional or subject to change depending on what you get...or what you don't get. That ain't Love.....that is a condition. I will Love you BUT....???? I will Love you...only if????? I will Love you till the die.....or until something better comes along? If the words I will.....in saying....the intention to Love....and there is any conation or contingency that makes that subject to change...then someone is using the other person....and that is not Love? Real honest to God genuine Love....has no conditions or contingencies..and when shit happens....the Love remains the same. That's how I can tell at least....it is the way I know if I Love someone...or they Love me? I may get furious with my wife...but I never stop Loving her even if in that moment I don't. But if that moment is over...and somehow my Love has changed...then that's conditional Love...which means i never Loved her or anyone else in the first place if that's the case?
Amd to be straight up and honest....if there is anything I have to upset about...is that my wife has pretty much flunked that test for sure. She has no idea what Love is....she thinks Love...is sympathy and has got that all the way fucked up! She thinks...Love has to do with "doing things for her" and "giving her things". But when I fail in that department...she threatens to leave? That ain't Love I've got to tell you? I am NOT FOR her to use, to take advantage of or to GET things from? She thinks if I give her a card and flowers...that I Love her and that means Love? That is a gesture of Love....but the material things themselves....are worthless and meaningless. Those are NICE things that make her feel good...but in respect to what I just said....I might Hate her guts....and be using that just to butter her up and manipulate her just to get her to trust me and gain her trust just so she I so cam get her to realxe sp I can go behind her back? Or....if I was having an affair....I could use that to throw her off my sent.....or.....if I felt guilty for the affair...I might do that out of guilt for my own selfish reasons to make myself feel better for compensating for lying and going behind her back? So anything and everything is possible as a reason to give presents to people....but only present or gift that means anything to me....has no strings attached. If it's conditional in any way....then to me....that is pretty worthless? I know Love when I feel it....and getting gifts ...or doing FOR.....is not my idea of Love? Either it is or it isn't....and if it isn't....it comes with a price. If I can pick it up[...hold it in my hand...smell it....taste it....or see it with my eyes in the physical world in any way;......that is a gesture only that's all it is? If it exists in the physical realm of reality or attached to a price tag in any way....that isnt't Love...and that's how can tell the difference. She wife can keep all the gestures in the world and not do a thing for me...and I would trade that in a heart beat for real unconditional Love.
That includes....."doing for....."...or the word "for" ( as in I'm for you...and your are for me....to what? Use or serve some purpose or personal agenda? no no no that ain't Love and it's something esle in anyway used in a sentence since this is conditional and exists in the physical world which includes sex by the way? Sex is a poor barometer for Love without a doubt. And honestly...I don't need a mama or anyone to take care of me or care "for me"...(for again ).....I can get everything I need in this world without my wife in the physical alone and I don't need "FOR" anything? Nothing? I don't need my wife "FOR" any purpose what so ever and can take care of myself in every way? The only thing of value to me at all and the only requirement I have..for her to Love me unconditionally...and if I can't get that from her....then what's the point? My wife is not a "thing"...or an object for me to use and for my pleasure? She not a peice of meat or to serve some "function" for me? She's not there to do things for me or to support me or take up the slack since I am a big boy now...and I don't a mama? That's was my mothers job back in the day and there is no overlap there and I have no need or wanting for that? I have one and only one need what so ever and that is the only reason I'm with my wife...and if she can't give me the basic fundamental unconditional Love...then what good it she to me? I need nothing from her...but just one thing and this is it? And unfortunately...I'm not even getting that much...but I won't live with a parasitic relationship for too much longer because that is a deal breaker right there. I will not betray myself for anyone and that is the line in the sand I will not step over ever. Not even my toe or toe nail....not a snow balls chance in Hell. I will not whore myself to anyone. If that is the requirement...then I'm down the road and gone. "Actually she'll be down the road and gone but that will be up to her..and time will tell. I'm in no rush...but there is an expiation date if I see I will never get the only request or demand I have ever made of my wife. Just that one...and nothing else.
J
I think you should read my post again
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Which was about her question of what she should do in her particular situation. I understand you disapproved my advice, which is your right. I just don't understand what all the things you are talking about have to do with my reply to her post. I still don't, after reading both of our posts several times. What I am calling you on, is your tendency to call my perspective of the world a victim and codependent mentality. She does not appear to have committed or entered into the agreement of any kind. Perhaps you are concerned about my comment about self destruction, etc. That was not my advice for her, that was my own experience. You are right, perhaps she will do better than I have. Anyhow, have a good Christmas.
DO Healthy Interdependence Example
Submitted by kellyj on
DO...I just thought of this again and it's a perfect example. I'll get to it to to belabor the story again. I was on a motorcycle trip cross country hundreds of miles from my home in
California with two other guys on our way to a motorcycle gathering of people all over the country converging in Yreka CA. We were coming up on a biker along the side of the road so we stopped to check to see what was up? He had a flat..and he forgotten that he gave his tire repair kit to someone else in need and he was stranded just waiting for someone to come along like us. As it turend out...he was on his way to the same place as we were? So when he said he was short is repair kit...I pulled out mine and handed it too him and he repaired the flat and we were all ready to go? He asked me if I needed any cash to make up for what he used and I said not "pay it forward to the next person the same as you did." And now there was 4 of us...riding together with our new friend we met.
That is inter-dependence right there. You give first with no strings attached without question and needing nothing in return? You are responsible for yourself entirely..and responsible for your neighbor and his dog too? You do it without question...and you ask for nothing in return? No strings....no tests to pass...no contingencies or conditions. Unconditional and not tied to anything other than...taking responsibility for yourself and you have everyone else's back on top of it? It's giving first....getting second and expecting nothing in return. It takes a Village to make a Villager....no contingencies involved. At tje same time you take care your own back yard....but if a branch needs cutting on your neighbors tree and you right there and it'[s not out of you way....you do it..and just forget about it..and pay it forward and no need to be thanked? Uncontonditional to anything...and no needs of your end involved? You have no needs.....except to help your brother and sister and you never withhold or question and you give for the future when ever that day comes and it's your time of need? The need is the only thing conditional about it....your not playing the boy scout and helping everyone where ever you can find it...to get the reward or validation? You need no validation, permissions, thank you's....nothing. You do it when no one is looking and they never even see the good deed you did? No recognition or any acknowledgement needed at all. You just do it...and everyone else just does it too.
So in respect to responsibility....everyone is your reasonability....but no expectations on your part unless you see something or someone who needs help or support from you but like I said....the motivation to this is clearly defined. You Love yourself enough....to do that for yourself. Since by doing it in advance...it will be waiting for you when you get there and your time of need comes?
It Karma. That's why you do it without question? And just to point out in that story.....see how that worked for the guy on the side of the rode? He was alone and by himself..and he was stranded without a paddle? And somehow....just by conisidence....we just happened along after only 5 minutes he said? And he was coming from Montana and we were coming from a completely different direction and there was no time to arrive at out destination so everyone was arriving at all hours from everywhere?
So we had this one intersection or vector path we were had to converge on where our paths actually crossed...and somehow that happened...and he got exactly what he needed since he had done the same thing for someone else....and that's how it worked? Is that ironic....or is that something else? I don't know...and I don't really pay much into mystical conscience but....you can never go wrong in that type of relationship...because the is more giving...than receiving going on instead or the reverse happening the other way?
So think of it in terms of odds? What are your chances of getting what you need...if you are getting always more than you give and everyone else is doing that too? Low probability....less than 50%?
Now in this type of relationship...your giving more than 50% of the time than you get? What are your odds now in getting what you need when you need it? Higher than 50%?
And there is no keeping track or keeping score at all? None what so ever? You give unconditionally...and you receive unconditionally and there is no score card or trophy or award involved for anyone...you just do it...and forget about it....and never think about it again? That's how I roll or try to at least.....but it's really difficult to do...with someone who keeps a score card in their back pocket...and is petty and always wants something when they give something back and if the score card says it's not always even...then they cry foul and want you to make up for it in some way? It's petty and selfish and 0 sum thinking. That not a Villager....that's a poor sport who doesn't understand how to play?
So in essence....one person will race to the front of the line...to make sure they don't miss out or get left out? The other person waits to the end of line...if they don't get as a big a piece of the pie...so what? It's not about....what am I not getting in the moment or keeping track all? It who needs more.....because I have more than I need? One is negative...one is positive...one is taking...one is giving? One is unconditional.....the other one conditional. One is a condition of scarcity...the other one is a conations or abundance?
My wife has no idea what I do for her when she;s not looking..and I don't tell her and I really don't keep track? My wife on the other hand...is always keeping her greedy eye of the pie....and getting the ruler out to measure if her piece is bigger or less than someone else? She's like a greedy child...who races to the front of the line to get the front seat of the bus....because the back seat would make her feel like a loser....because she doesn't Love herself? So she is looking and testing and keeping track of what she is not getting....but in the mean time....I'm doing things for her...and keeping track of nothing? She can't see what I do when she;s not around....she only sees what she wants to see....in the negative instead of the plosive and that right there is a victim with victim mentality....and the glass is always 1/2 empty.....and mine is always 1/2 full? With her...it's all about me? Amd with me....its always about everyone else? That because I'm not a victim...and she is and that's why this happens.
If someone was getting mugged and beat up with a bunch of by standers standing around and closing their curtains....I know where I'd be..and I know where my wife would be....and that's the difference right there? In my world....that shit don't fly. I'm a stand up guy when my number is called...and you can count on that much...even if I pick my clothes up off the floor or forget about getting milk at the store. To me...that's just petty....but I can back it up with action and my wife only sits around and complains about what she's not getting and writing it down on a score card and with her little ruler there to make sure no one cheats. With her....everything is conditional...which is really small minded and petty where I'm coming from? I won't be angry if you don't forget...but she will get angry if you do? Which means...I'm working for her anger....and she is withholding until I don't? Conditional that I do my part first...and then she will do hers....if and when she decides I worthy? The things is when she decides I'm worthy and finally gives her part...what she gives is tainted now....and is worthless to me so I don't care? She tainted it with slimey strings...and ruined the gift and got crud all over it...and made it dirty with her pettiness which is like peeing in the soup....and then saying here your dinner? Gee thanks...what a Loving thing to do? Hope you didn't break a nail or something....thank you very much!!!
J
J, why do you stay married?
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
J, why do you stay married? I'm not being sarcastic; I really do wonder. Your relationship sounds very unpleasant.
I erased several of my posts
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
In which I attempted to reply to you, but will stick with what I know best. Usually, I find your posts helpful, pointing out something I haven't seen or offer a different perspective. This time I don't. I don't see how the things you are discussing are at all related to what I originally wrote. So this is the point where I put this down, and not continue. Do not see this as a sign of disrespect, but just acceptance that we are at different places. I hope you have a wonderful holiday with your loved ones.
Thank You, And I Do Apologize.........DO
Submitted by kellyj on
I realized las night when I sat down and was just reflecting about my state of being last night.......that I didn't feel right and something was wrong and not so much about what I was saying yesterday here specifically but how I was saying it and it occurred to me that I was angry and I was feeling that old familiar feeling of low grade depression again. Many times I don't catch this until I am actually coming out of it but this time I recognized it early on my way in and I came to the conclusion rather quickly that I am still in the grieving process where I am alternating between feeling melancholy and moments of anger and it was really coming though and affecting me and I do know why? It is in relationship to my wife and having to "hold in" so much and not express myself at the times when I normally would say something to her and it is changing me who I am to a slight degree and making me tense and anxious which is nothing more from taking so many "hits" from these small rather inconsequencial moments with my wife when she is compelled to "strike back" or "lash out" and it really does get old. And it is the same old thing with the Jeckal and Hyde "effect" but in that respect it alternates with Jeckal constantly pushing back or getting instantly defensive....and then Hyde in essence....following up with those moments of lashing out and then back to herself again? It is always the same thing but these as isolated instances are nothing to write home about and she is not a raging lunatic as put? It's more like someone taking their finger..and poking you rather firmly in one spot in your arm....and then doing it again repeatedly in that same spot over and over until you finally go......"Hey!!!! That's just about enough!!!!!" And then she will return to sulking or moping and being melancholy herself and it really is rubbing off on me over time even though....I have stopped reacting or saying anything much in response to her quite a long time ago!! Honesty.....we are not fighting or arguing and I know way better than to do that but.....those moments when this kicking the dog goes on for too long.....I finally do have to say something because these are really blatant "mini attacks" that are designed to just make herself feel better and then after she does this....she calms down and returns to her more normal self rather quickly.and even she sees it herself after the fact when I say something because it's so obvious and she has a moment to stop and think about it? And I have been around her brother to see this in him too. Sudden outburts or flashes of anger and it is always related to frustration of some kind and they even do this with each other (I witnessed ) and then seemingly.....everyone if fine and back to normal again and these moments just don't seem to register and anything out of the norm for them either? I haven't had the opportunity to spend enough time with all 3 of us together to see this for sure....but I get the impression that this is an establish pattern in her family as well...and no thinks the wiser of these moments as if....this is normal? They reinforced this in their relationship at home for so long that this does not stand out to them as that big a deal in respect to one thing? They do it....they complain about it....but then they write it off imdediately and just "accept"...this is the way it is so NO ONE has to try and do anything about it....when everyone is doing it all at the same time which gives the green light....to keep doing it as if to say......"everyone is like this......no big deal".
Well I've got to say that my wife is not like this all the time....but when she gets on a roll, she will keep this up until it comes to a head and I finally have to say something and suddenly in the after math....she realizes that what I said was right but each time it happens....it's like I have to become more "blunt" and more forceful than before to try and get it through to her....that she can't do this with me and have me think that this is just Okay and I have to sit and take it anymore??? In respect to her own family....they've all had to accept it...and take it.....so therefore....I should too??
She will come after the fact later and she does apologize but now I am being more pointed and kind of forcing her to "LOOK AT IT".....specifically....rather than trying to be more general and staying away from "stirring the pot" myself?
I can answer Poison Ivy's question in why do I stay married? Here's the deal. 75 to 80% of the time...my wife is a wonderful and well meaning well intentioned person and there is no way not to see this in her? I actually told her just yesterday that I thought she was actually a genuinely extremely honest person and that is a fact? With my wife in some respects more than any other person I have ever been with and I mean this sincerely.....comes a quality and a sense that she is always very straight up and out in the open with her feelings and nothing is really kept a secret from me in respect to doing anything I would''t do behind my back and what I see more than anything else ( in truth) is someone fighting very hard to rise above herself and having a great amount of difficulty in doing so?
The quality that I see as a consistent quality with my wife....is her willingness to try and wanting to improve but she is just going about it all wrong and she is not willing to ask for help or wants any more to the fact? More than anything else....she is what I'm calling "self absorbed" not "selfish" in her doing things in any way that is unfair or unreasonable in the big picture ( big picture here for sure ) that has me worried or cast any doubts that I can't trust her implicitly which is actually true.
The problem is...her methodology......and my part in this which seems to be that "bad guy role" and the one who is actually bringing about these slow changes in her. If I end up not saying anything.....nothing will ever change. If I say something even in these judicious metered moments....I get exactly what I expect. Jackal complains....Hyde strikes back....and then she gets depressed and then returns to normal. What I am doing.....is parenting her...but not by choice? I honestly feel that there is a part of her ...still wanting or needing to have that "reasonable demand" or "reasonable feedback or reprimand".....from a "reasonable parent" who is calling her on the carpet for acting out.....which no one has ever done with her before? I get the impression from her past relationships....that these "guys" finally just gave up and retreated or rejected her...and abandoned her and stopped trying? I am playing "Good Cop"...."Bad Cop"....an actually being her Father that she never had which is in part.....as desperate cry for attention and Love and weirdly......wanting me or needing me to do this? Seriously? It seems the more I do this with her...the more she improves and the part of the outside is saying....BE NICE TO ME....and the part on the inside is saying....."Scold me I've been bad and I know it and deserve it!!!" And you know....that is exactly the position....she puts me into with her? I have to constantly be on her....like a parent would for a child say of 6 years old.....who had a parent ignore her....even when she acted out in a ploy to get attention an dismissed her immediately? ( her mother ) And I do feel their in a familial denial as a whole in her entire family or growing up experience...that say alcoholism as something that doesn't stand out in her mind.....as alcoholism ( no big red flags or bells going off )...when it should be. Her brother had to quit...or he would have drank himself to death over 15 years ago as has been reported to me and with that I have to say....there is something admirable in what I see in both my wife and her brother in a wiliness and desperation...in trying to do the right thing which actually shows a lot of character ( both ).
And even in some of these moments when I have forced the issue and back her into a coroner ( stopped doing that ) in the conversation only when she says her norm "I don't want to talk about it"......"IT" in this case....she has admitted when really pin down and upset.....that she is aware of too? Saying....it's not that she can't or won't see it or doesn't see it in herself.....it is literally saying...."I don't want to discuss....what I already know and that I cannot help"....which she feels....it is? The problem there is.....she cannot help what happened to her and what ever her mental issue is.....( both her "disorder" and the "child abuse" )....but she has resigned herself to the fact.....there literally is nothing she can do so she has to live with it ( and therefore...so do it ) literally!!!
She kind of has decided...."well this is just who I am!!!" And I've got to say.....this is where my wife and I are so different than each other?
I absolutely remember....my parents pulling me aside when I was in that age range ( in elementary school )...where I use to "stir the pot" a lot....and piss my parents off and it was not because I wasn't getting the attention or trying to get anything this myself.....I was just the classic example of hyperactive energy release....until someone screamed at me to stop with no intention what so ever? But in our household.....peace and quiet....was the norm and ( conflict of any kind ) was simply not allowed. In reverse of what I see in how my wife's family was where conflict and turmoil and chaos....reigned supreme!! The one person that our entire family was mostly focused on....was my father when Peace and Calm.....was violated or disturbed in any way. At all cost to all involved....this is where no one wanted to go and that included my own mother! His rage and temper....was WAY off the chart...but you didn't see it unless you broke rank...and suddenly the wrath of God came crashing down upon you? Otherwise....this kind of constant "poking you in your arm"....bickering back and forth....attention seeking behavior or anything resembling what I see as somewhat "allowed" as totally immature and childish behavior and understanding that her mother....had everyone focused on her and needing to be "patented herself" but actually going a step further and forcing everyone to "be all about me all the time" on her end.....in contrast......there was an expectation in our house ( for everyone ) to behave in a civil and respectable mature manner ( man woman and child ) AT ALL TIMES.....as mandatory.....OR ELSE!!! BOOM!!! lol
This was as I have recently come to realize...the source in this with me? I do recall this very well of course...and I do remember one thing in a more positive light? I was actually expected by my father....to be more than I was but not for my benefit? I was expected to act and behave like and adult....even when it was too much to expect from a child my age? Truly! Beyond what I should have been capable of which was unreasonable going in the other direction? This was the carry over from the Military without question and my father was a Captain in Army Air Corps during World War II and it fate or kismet or what every you want to call it.....if there was a "fit" for my father or what he was put on this earth to do.....was to play that role and that was a match made in Heaven right there?
You could say ( fairly ) that I didn't need to be sent to boarding or Military school for acting out.....I live there everyday.....any time my father was around and he was that guy ( Boot Camp Sergeant ) with a kind of no holds barred....I'll see you in brigg...."you eye balling me boy"....attitude? Let me tell you.....there was no "eye balling" allowed or even a peep!!!! Either toe the line...or suffer the consequence but even within that approach....nothing my father wanted was either unreasonable or "lessons you shouldn't learn" in the same respect to the Military? A tight ship is a tight ship and everything you do on a tight ship...is done for good reason and there is no arguing that for a second....since none of those skills or habit are bad ones in that respect? The lessons and expectations....were all good ones.....it's just that I was way too young and not an adult...plus a kid with ADHD on top of it...to have those expectations foisted on me and even mother saw that and did here best to compensate yet she was in the same boat I was in with the rest of out family and mothers rank was more like a Corporal....compared to my father who was Captain who had to served double duty as drill Sargent at times to keep the peace? Everyone was subordinate to my father but I was given a "promotion" you might say....long before I was ready!!!! That was the only thing unreasonable in my fathers own expectation but to the point....he wasn't doing it for me...he was doing it because that is what he expected...period!!!!!
And the point of bring this up and bringing you to this place is.....I was about 6 years old....when I clearly and vividly remember standing "down"lol....at my fathers orders and getting this thrown in my face "If you behave like this...no one is going to like you!!!"....and though hurtful at the time....he was not being unreasonable? That was him and my mother....telling me straight up....that this "thing" I was doing ( stirring the Pot ) was completely unacceptable and no one "will like it"...and there is no arguing that!! I wasn't doing it on purpose to piss anyone off...I was doing it because I had ADHD and I jumping "out of my skin!!! " LOL Which manifested in jumping and hopping around non stop and tearing around the house making noise and crashing into everything!!! I was just reacting and acting purely on impulse and had no control of it what so ever and I actually could not control it!! What can I say....I had ADHD?
But in those moments....I would always....******ALWAYS.******....say the same thing out loud as "in response". "It's just who I am....I'm just being myself!!!!" In a very indignant defiant way in response even though that was always met with harsh criticism and sometimes....actual physical...or sanctioned punishment ie: privileges taken away?
Unfortunately.....my parents weren't Not right up to a point ( if I didn't have ADHD )...but the fact that I did and no one knew it....cause me to know at least that I wasn't doing it intentionally....but I just couldn't help it or stop it...and that was also true? And add that extra bonus of having an expectation that a child should be an adult long before you are able to...does put a fire under you butt....to do some catch up in a hurry? In that respect.....I actually not trying to catch up to my peers....I was trying to catch up to my fathers demands which were unreasonable for any child my age. Double Whammy!!! And in many ways...this showed even in my childhood to be some what more responsible in self sufficient in repsect to me...than other kids my age or were friends of mine? So there was actually nothing wrong or nothing you could see as unreasonable or abusive in the end goal my father had.....it was just ( I'm sure )...the watered down version of what he got but he didn't see what he was doing was abusive in any way along with those same expectation?
So those expectations and the lessons are all good ones and the end results ended up in the right place.....yet....when the method of learning how to swim...is for your patent to walk you to the end of the dock....and throw you into the ocean and yell "swim".......and that was the lesson? LOL Either you sink or swim and swimming sounded better so that;s what I learned and how I learned it. The hard way!!! And even harder.....having ADHD???
So there are two thing that there is no way that I cannot know...or what I could not come to in my own understanding about anything related to emotional "reactivity" in association with having ADHD from that expereince?
1) It is not only possible to control.....there is no excuse you can use that says "you can't" because you can.
2) It is extremely hard..and it takes a lot internal strength to do so
3) I did this WAY before....most kids even had to do that much let alone...have ADHD on top of it
4) My sympathy or ability to be forgiving or sympathetic...is both tied to my understanding or how hard it is....AND....that it's possible and possible in way....that if really pinned against the wall ( literally ) you can if you have to and you can do it and that is that?
5) Resolving this for another person in respect to what I KNOW is possible......in the face of (ME) seeing my wife now as an Adult with the same issues ( emotional regulating problems ) I am neither outraged or hurt by it ( in respect that I see it for what it is ......can understand it for what it is......can relate directly to (myself ) and see it in the moment and recognize what I see.....and have a lot of sympathy or tolerance for what I see or hear as ( BS ) when I see it.
When I see ( me ) standing there saying "this is who I am! I can't help it! Tough!!" I am very forgiving of that statement and I do understand this directly as said and I don't expect my wife or anyone else to respond as I do now but only because I know I got this at an early age....and got a handle on it up to a point...all the way back then? Actually...in some ways....way beyond what was even reasonable to ask of me....which was abusive and I suffered from it? But the expectation themselves...were no unreasonable...if I had been say 10 years older...and that might have been more appropriate? In respect to me.....having two older's sisters ( 6 and 8 years older ) and a Narcisist who lacked the ability to have empathy....put ( obvious to me even back then ) an expectation on me that I behave the same as they did....long before they were expected to be that way themselves under the same circumstances? And in trying to bridge that gap since I ( was unwanted by my father...accident you know ) he had one and only one thing he wanted....me not to be child that he had to deal with since that was an inconvenience and a disruption to his "calm".
So in what I just said....this is nothing new I just came up with here in the moment...and is a very accurate and balanced picture of my own personal experience? The abuse came from the unreasonable expectations that exceeded that for my age with or without ADHD ( the Boy Named Sue song by Johnny Cash LOL ) but the lessons and the expectations themselves were not unreasonable and actually ....good character building lessons which did shape me as they should? To a level beyond my peers in which also stood out back then too? And I don;t expect that of my wife now or anyone else....but I also now....it can be done at the same time..and I recognize exactly what I am seeing and I am not in a state of conflict over that much? I do know what I now and what I see as accurate and there is no ambivalence in that respect since I am "right there and present" in the moment and actually do "know" which is part of the problem? My ability for patience is both high and I am in control of my own anger in that respect....but no tolerance with what appears to be ( me )....at times placing this in what I see at an age that boarders on the ridiculous ( appearing that is ) to my based on myself.....( all things considered )...does flavor these exasperating moment with that "if I can do it...you can do it. Attitude and I am not very bending at time because of it? And when I reach down and find God or who ever and get my "game on" and use those same skills now again....( and find the Love and compassion in me in order to forgive and forget ) in the face of the same thing everyone else is facing ( yet I'm ADHD myself )....sometimes I just want to scream and tell everyone...."HEY.....I don't care what they say....or any excuse they pulling on you!! That's a line of BS and is just them making excuses?" On your behalf I'm thinking and feeling these things? But at the same time sometimes....when I see the flip side ( with me on your side dealing with the same things as well and can relate TOTALLY!!! LOL I'm seeing the flip side as well (with me being on that side ) and me doing the same thing when I get really frustrated in some of the things I see or here and want to reach through the computer sometimes and just shake you ( and others ) here and say hey "wake up!!!" LOL And I mean that sincerely on your behalf but I do understand all of this...and I understand the why's the what's and the "who done it's" too..and I know what I have come to in my own understanding of it?
The position...itself....that I have myself in is the problem and my own personal one. I am neither better or worse...richer or poorer from being put into this position saying...I feel like I have a balanced and rather grounded attitude about this on the whole and in general? I am neither my father or being my father in my own expectations and I feel...I am being reasonable in my own demands of my wife? And I see the most important aspect of all with my wife and that is.....she is willing in her own right...to better herself and I see the effort and see the improvements along the way?
But within the very good things I learned and the skills I learned to do it.....I know how hard I can push....and not be unreasonable only in respect to understanding what is possible and knowing that as fact no matter what she says. And in comparison to other here on this side of the fence....I've got to deal with the my own emotional stability as put....which requires even more effort as I see it at times....because I have this emotional liability issue that I have how to manage? The tight rope walk as I am calling it...is the fact....that I know almost "too much".....and since I know "too much" only from my experience with myself.....I have to face the fact that everyone is different..and not everyone is willing to put up with this or.....choose not to in the same way I am and that is a touch balancing act in respect to my own self righteousness...and my own understanding that there is a fine line here...that is a difficult thing to see let alone....know what to do about it? I don't see myself ( or feel that I am ) losing myself and becoming disillusioned as much...as just having to do battle for so little ground and getting not much results back from having to be that "bad guy parent" to gain one inch or the effort I put into it? So in respect to the 75-80% or the time when my wife is exactly who she is and the person I can admire and trust ( all her wonderful qualities )....there is this nasty little unruly girl inside her....that really needs a spanking sometimes!!! LOL Truly!!! There is a fine line between what can be "helped" and what can't be "helped"...and what can be helped right now in the immediate....is not behaving like a 6 year old and then saying "I can't help it...this is who I am".....when I know just how Wrong" I was when I was standing there saying that...and sometimes just want to smack her since she can't use that as an excuse to kick the dog just to seek or get my attention in an attention seeking way? There is no way....I can not understand this and to the point....there is no way I can sit there....and just take it.....knowing what I know even if I'm not placing those same unreasonable expectations on my wife in the same way for good reason. That would be abusive on my part...and that is not who I am or about to become! That self betrayal and losing myself and changing from who I am? Not going to do it.....line in the sand?
So all of this is about me and my own struggles with this and less to do with my wife in respect to the improvements and here willingness...except this familial kind of accepting this...as somewhat normal for us...so therefore normal for everyone else kind of way of seeing these outbursts and temper tantrums....just to get "their way". And oddly enough.....my own compassion dn even forgiving attitude has kind of been my own worst enemy? Meaning....I don't judge peoples difference as my first way of seeing these difference and I am very allowing an accepting anyway? I'm as far from prejudice as you could get even if I make fun of stereotypes but with a tough in cheek attitude saying everyone is fair game and we are all ridiculous in our own ways...including me kind of attitude? Just pointing at the ridiculous and seeing it that way? I don't always know if that comes through or not and sometimes I'm thinking not because of the communication gap on the internet? I am not a big social media internet socialite so I am still learning how to do this as well? Not the norm for my by any stretch so I find myself saying things at times that I would in person ....that doesn't translate well not in person without all the non verbal info and feedback...as well as my ability to "sense" not being there? I am such a "sensing" creature by nature and default in terms of energy "Live" in the presence of other people.....that I feel I am crippled here sometimes....since I don't have that ability here? Sensing...from words...is no the same as sensing live in person in the moment and if I have learned anything from coming here...is just how sensitive I am....but only when I have those senses to work with? Without that direct feedback live in the moment and can't feel the a persons energy directly in the moment....I find I am really lost here sometimes...because I lose that ability? It has to be right in close proximity in direct contact...which is the problem in it self...with my wife as well?
I know my own weakness here in that respect...and that just comes from no experience with this.....but I am not by nature...and counselor or a therapist and the patience needed for that requires a great deal of compassion and understanding above and beyond the normal? Which...in respect to me....I would say I am more the normal for a guy without that being my goal or natural ability? I know how hard I can push...and still be reasonable....I lack the ability tough to push....in any other way...than the way I know how and having more of a "no nonsense" attitude along these lines...I found that this attitude...does not work so ......now what??? It has less to do with patience...and more to do with what I just said and kind of knowing exactly what I am seeing and dealing with...even right in the moment? This is where...I have to draw a lot of strength...to over come my tendency...to call a spade a spade ( with my wife ) and not let her off the hook? Even if what I see or think is reasonable in the face of what in unreasonable....I still can't force her into anything...and she is more like a Mule in that way since the harder you push...the harder or deeply...they dig in and won't budge and this is that "quality" as I am saying....goes directly against my "no nonsense allowed" attitude this is there crux of the matter right there? I feel that is only part or in part...to do with what I got when I was younger....but more to do with what I know....and knowing what is BS and what is not...and actually knowing the difference? There is very little at this time...that could come out of my wife's mouth....that I can't interpret pretty accurately and place and put it where it belongs which I'm saying...is kind of the reverse of many people who come here in the same situation? When I say...takes one to know one.....I am being serious. That puts me in this weird "no mans land" position...since I might do better if I knew less than I already know in the compassion and forgiveness department?
It why these things don't hurt or upset me as much on one hand....but on the other hand....my ability to put up with it is extremely difficult but saying....that part is my own failure not my wife's?
But this stirring the pot thing....really gets old sometimes and some days are better than others and yesterday...was simply a bad day for me? None of it new or I am in conflict with what is happening but just to give you an idea? This was how my day started yesterday?
I was sitting on the computer and just writing and doing some actual work ( job income work ) and wife wakes up and I get that sinking feeling. She wakes up every morning in a bad mood so this is nothing new right? But all of a sudden....I get hit in the face with my coat from across the room with my wife storming off all in a huff? So picture the living area in spotless pickup and completely manicured looking condition ( Monk )....and there is one coat...draped neatly over the end of the couch...since I had just come in from taking the dogs out to pee? One coat....placed neatly over the couch...and then the entire living area looks like a show room in a furniture store and not one thing wrong any where in sight? This is what I can only see as a OCD kind of reaction and if one thing is out of place....her whole world comes to a screeching halt? But no just a screeching halt...but now.....HAS TO ACT ON IT......which to me appears so obvious...I can scream sometimes!!! She is experiencing the same thing every morning in how she feels....but she spots something wrong or out of place in her enviroment....and now that's why she feels this way? And me watching this going...."how can you be so blind!!! But not only "how can you be so blind....but also knowing exactly what I'm seeing on top of it. I can see this coming a mile a way...and then in the face with my coal with my wife storming off?" So I have to get up...and go in and look at her and say "I got your message loud and clear ...child......which is exactly how a child would try and communicate but to the point.....I'm not playing this game with you!" And then I go back calmly...and go back to what I am doing? Is that not what I parent would do if their child did that very thing? What she wants is unreasonable because what she is reacting to....is neither me...or my coat and she knows this because I have told her this many times already....that I'm not playing this perfectionism game she playing "straight to her face" in which she will always reply...."I'm not a perfectionist!!!". I don't argue with her or say anything more than that...but she is a perfectionist or has this problem or issue...and it isn't my problem or my responsibility so I am not taking it in on my account....but I'm not going to sit quietly and have someone throw my coat in my face...and try and tell me it's because of me and not her obsession with neat and orderly ness and then turn around and excuse herself for doing that because...."I can't help it". I don't even care why in those moments... but if I don't say something...she will continue to do it. And if I do say something which I pick and choose my battles....I get Jeckel ( or Monk ) having an OCD attack, then I get Hyde ( throwing my coat at me )...and then I get the victim who can't help it but I don't or refuse to talk about it...and then I get moping and depression and the "victim" crying in here soup which was (ME) at age 6....and there is no way I can't see this? That's the hard part......I see (ME) with the same issues and saying the same thing at 6 years old...and I know exactly where she is? I don't need to be a therapist...to figure that part out because it does take on to know one....and I am ONE....in that respct and I have little to no sympathy or tolerance for BS when I see it? The BS part...is the part I know...that CAN BE HELPED and I am not going to sit back and allow a 6 year old.....having a temper tantrum and telling me...there is nothing I can do about it? That's not me....walking her to the end of the dock and throwing her in the deep end and yelling swim....that's me seeing this for what it is....and simply walking the ball over to her court and handing it to her and going "nice try"...and walking away from it each and every time which I have to do...or nothing changes? But the problem is....when I do it....it actually works...but I have to do this all the time...and that's where it gets old and mu patience starts wearing thin? Like yesterday since that was how my day started....with a coat...being thrown across the room....and then at the end after all said and done...you get remorse and a realization that she fucked up...once again?
And I do go to my therapist (less for me now ) and run these scenarios down with him and tell him what I think I see..and he tells me if I'm right...but also always reminds me that I am not the easiest person to live with which is again.....only telling me exactly what I already know as a reminder or this reality I have found myself in? It's so ironic.....I really am on an emotional level....a breeze to live with in that respect. I learned to manage that so long ago...that I have lots of skills in that department and for the most part...I rarely or overtly get upset unless someone (like my wife ) decides to hurl my coat in my face becase Monk is having a crisis..and the picture on the wall is a little crooked!! LOL That is a tough one....to get past these moments and have a lot of sympathy even if I am being quite empathetic in my own way myself? Empathic up the point of a "brat"....versus ADHD and drawing a distinction for myself that way and making my own determinations of separating "acting out like a 6 year old" and hearing....I can't help it? She can't help her emotional liability and I can easily look past these moments and let them slide....up until the point...that my coat is now laying on my face...and she went out of her way to include me in this and blame me for her "daily bad mood in the morning and imdediately looking for what is wrong."
So if I can aplogize for anything as far as going off a little on a tangent as I realized....I realized that I was having a down or depressed day...and I was not dealing well my self and making a point to get that out in way that was kind of insistent on people taking responsibility for what you are responsible for but I was really coming to a head with this and that had nothing to do with you? That had less to do with even taking this out on anyone else...but more with mre wanting to scream and reach through the computer and shake you and say what I just said in respect to saying my conclusions and frustrations that what I have that works...actually does work. It is working...and it effecting change. But in the same way I'm doing it with my wife now from everything I've learned?
What works...is talking the ball that doesn't belong in your court...and walking it calming back over to the other side and saying "here....this belongs to you I think"...and then turning around and walking back to your court...and going about your business? And this does work..and I do see the progress.....I just have bad days in being the bad guy...and having to do all the work sometimes to get there just to keep the ball...from hitting me in the face? That's the hard part and why I was having a bad day and I am sorry some of that attitude...was coming through on your end yesterday? If you can understand what I am saying? If anything....I understand this to the same point as you DO...because I am on your side of the fence this time...just so you know?
I hope you have a great Holiday as well and I yes....thank you fo the feedback.....much appreciated!!! ;)
J
Love the ball...J
Submitted by Zapp10 on
What works...is talking the ball that doesn't belong in your court...and walking it calming back over to the other side and saying "here....this belongs to you I think"...and then turning around and walking back to your court...and going about your business?
Now THIS statement gives me clarity. It will help in the "going no where dialog" I have with my H.
After ALL that has transpired on this "adhd" something is " OFF" with my marriage business these past several years.....to finally have some real seeing and understanding of my H is a huge relief. NOT because it was attributed to HIM. I also came to see and understand things to do with me also. When I look back a few weeks ago.....when for the umpteenth time I am asking myself.......why does he NOT SEE I love him? and in that moment I "heard" ....he doesn't KNOW HOW to receive it. I can't tell you how STUPID I felt that I NEVER SAW THAT!!! The WHY I never FELT affection, warmth, concern, care that goes with a MUTUAL LOVE relationship. I GAVE it but accepted "his way" which was devoid of emotion. DOUBLE DUH on my part. Do you know J...I questioned my loving my spouse.....when underneath it the whole time....I KNEW I LOVED and was SHOWING love to my spouse......and he did not know what LOVE of any kind actually WAS. Sweet Jesus!! This problem is on his doorstep.....NOT MY FAULT.....NOR HIS....but he HAS to address it for the marriage to work. I can't do this for him....it is way out of my league.
P.S. MyH had neither parent able to BE there on an emotional level. To me THAT is such a sad sad situation. To not have at least ONE PARENT/PERSON in your corner as a CHILD! OH MY!
Jen, part of this reminds me of Aspergers
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
A long distance relationship
that he cannot make friends as easily as he wishes and that he’s not good in keeping in touch with friends and family – sometimes he wouldn’t be in touch with his family for 3-4 months.
A meltdown. . People with AS have described two different general kinds, a withdrawal or tempestuous
Delaying getting together for contact offline, which is much harder to manage than online, because it is in real time, the periods of being together are longer, and the conversation less regulated and less limited by technology.
It's just a thought.
Thanks!
Submitted by jen6587 on
Thank you for your comment! Not sure about Aspergers... But the more distance I take to look at what's going on and what had led up to this behavior of his (shutting down, cutting out friends that got too close), the more I start to see that at some point we got into a pursuit-withdrawal spiral. I think in addition to his ADHD he might be an avoidant while I clearly became extremely preoccupied with his crises and his state of mind and body. My reaching out to him must be pushing him even further away for some reason. One of must be the first one to stop and step out of the spiral, I guess.
In any way we will have a lot to work on if the two of us want this relationship to function. I have my issues and he has his... I guess in the end we will both have to look for and accept outside help by professionals to a certain extent. Otherwise we might just keep repeating this toxic pattern over and over and over again. Even if we'll never be 100% "in tune" or stable, I think we can be in better charge of our issues, together and apart from one another.
Thanks for sharing your thought!