Considering a point brought up yesterday

Why can't his responsibility

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Tue, 06/22/2010 - 12:58

Why can't his responsibility be to help you?

Equal does not mean the same. Haven't we women/feminists been saying for years?

It is works for you guys, why isn't that good enough? If it works, it works.

Maybe its my ADD brain but I really don't care WHY my hubby does things, so long as they get done.

So far it has only worked in a limited way

Submitted by Aspen on Tue, 06/22/2010 - 13:17

because I get so very resentful at the idea of having more responsibility thrust onto me. I don't want it either, which is why our agreement was to share home responsibilities. He even got to pick ones he didn't mind, but he doesn't like doing them on a schedule...he wants to do them when he *feels like it*. I believe most ppl do not find it acceptable to only vacuum floors once a month!!

I'm trying to talk myself into going back to it because he gets relief from feeling the responsibility that he agreed to, but he actually helps more. I get more responsibility (which I do NOT want at all) AND I don't get the thing I desperately want and beg him for all the time--which is LESS things on my radar that I am responsible to handle, but I also get more support around the house.

It is difficult for me to go back there because the thing I want very most is to be able to say "I do not have to worry about the yard/or the vacuuming/or whatever because that is his job and he is handling it." I don't want to have to think about the things he is supposed to handle, but so far that hasn't happened. That is what I resent. I feel like I have to give up what I desperately want in order to do things in the way that will make HIM happiest.

Ultimately I might be happier too since he will help more, but I wouldn't be as happy if he just handled his responsibilities in a timely fashion that didn't have to affect me at all. SOO do I give up what I really want in order to get to what works best for now? Or do we keep working toward him someday being able to take care of his stuff well enough that it can get off my radar. This is the question.....

Put me in a corset with a whip giving orders

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Tue, 06/22/2010 - 13:37

In my household the only thing that is totally my hubbys responsibility is making money and the kitchen. Everything else its his responsibility to help me with. He takes orders very well and I am happy to give orders. I tell him what needs to be done and that it must be done now, by 6, before bed etc and I don't have to worry about it anymore. Unless he doesn't meet deadline, then I have to tell him to do it again lol

But I know most women don't like being in charge or wearing the pants in a relationship. But it seems most ADD men also don't want to be in charge! I also think maybe they can't be. I think that’s one of the differences between ADD men and women. Most ADD men I know just want to be told what to do, they are happy to give all the power to a woman they love and trust; they follow orders but not do responsibilities. ADD women are usually tomboys who like to be the boss. Put me in a corset with a whip giving orders and we have a very happy marriage LOL

HH Responsibilities Split

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Tue, 06/22/2010 - 15:35

I don't see this as an "either/or". He can, and should, have some specific responsibilities that are his. This does the very important task of making your load of responsibilities manageable enough that you aren't overwhelmed. Note that organizing these responsibilities will likely take him longer than the same responsibilties would take you. Perhaps that is why you feel as if less gets done when it's his responsibility. In any event, in addition to the responsibilities that are his, I think you can also have the situation you describe as "he helps you and gets to be your hero." But here's the subtle part - you are in charge NOT because it is your responsibility to be in charge, or because women are supposed to run the household, but BECAUSE THAT IS THE MOST EFFICIENT AND SENSIBLE DISTRIBUTION OF RESPONSIBILITIES when one of you has ADHD. You are better at organizing - once you have created the hierarchy (what's most important, etc) he can execute. If you can talk about this together and come to an agreement around it, I think you'll find that there will be less resentment on your part about playing this role...and perhaps fewer times when he says he doesn't feel like doing the work.

You'll Drive Yourself Crazy

Submitted by Ren on Tue, 06/29/2010 - 09:48

Aspen, I totally feel your pain on this, but you'll drive yourself crazy because he won't ever take on the responsibility as his own (and if he does, your anger will just get transferred to the fact that he doesn't follow up on things he has agreed to take ownership of).

My solution to this problem has been outsource, outsource, outsource. Like you, I don't want the responsibility, either -- I have enough to do and I have as much of a right to have some free time as he does. So, for example, we hired a housecleaner, who comes every other week. It has changed my life. By the way, this did not come easily: we had major fights for about six months because whenever I brought up getting a cleaner, my husband would tell me we should save the money (I love how he would randomly and suddenly care about how much money we were spending, when he just blew 5 times that amount on Home Depot or whatever) or even better, that I should pay HIM to clean the house! Really, absurd conversations. When I told him that the alternative to not hiring a cleaner was for each of us to commit to doing specific cleaning tasks each week, he didn't want to do that, either. Finally I just dropped the conversation and just hired the cleaner on my own, he didn't do anything and now he is also glad that our house is clean, he doesn't have to do it, and I'm not angry.

Similarly, I hired someone to do my grocery shopping each week -- I plan meals in advance and get everything I need for the week. Since I work full-time, this avoids me having to run to the store on weeknights or having to send my husband, who will inevitably come back with the wrong thing or the right thing plus five things we don't need. I also hired an au pair, which is cheaper than a nanny but takes care of all of the childcare menial tasks like preparing lunches and bottles, kids' laundry, school drop off/pick up, etc., which allows me to spend time playing and happy with them instead of frazzled and angry that I don't have any help.

I know it sounds like we spend a lot of money on outside help, and it's true it's not cheap. But as the financial manager of the house, I make tradeoffs: we live in a small, older house; we drive used cars; I buy clothes for myself and the kids at Target; and more or less we don't live the same kind of lifestyle that people with similar incomes do. But I've just decided that having some sanity in my life is better than having the appearance of a fancy lifestyle.

It's true that it would be nice if my husband would be more of a partner so that we didn't have to farm out basic househild tasks. But since the reality is that that's not going to happen, I've learned to take care of myself so that all of the responsibility doesn't fall on me alone. Since the ADD diagnosis, my husband realizes that all of these things are a necessity for me, rather than a luxury (which is how he used to view it -- as though with all this help I was just sitting around watching TV and getting pedicures). Knowing that he has a disorder also helps me feel less resentful that we need all the help also. But it's one solution that's worth a try.

parity, intention and action

Submitted by arwen on Tue, 06/29/2010 - 12:54

Aspen, I agree partly with your friend. Having this kind of willingness can be a big factor in a successful marriage. I disagree that it's always necessary, though -- I've seen successful marriages that were based on a different kind of parity

But I would surely agree that the kind of parity is important -- 25/25 isn't going to cut it! and even 50/50 typically is not enough, because there are times when one of the partners may be temporarily unable to contribute their 50 percent.

I think it's this parity concept that you perhaps subconsciously ascribe to that makes it difficult for you to get past your husband's attitude about helping versus responsibility -- and rightly so, in my opinion and experience. If you have all the responsibility and he helps, even if it's a lot, it's not even in the neighborhood of parity. You are the "owner" and he's just subletting (and on his own terms, at that) -- does that sound like parity when I put it that way?

But aside from these considerations -- all by itself, that willingness is not enough, because it only goes to the intention part of the marriage equation. Just as I tell my husband that understanding his problems is important and a critical first step, without which nothing else will help, but that understanding alone is not enough -- consideration of the problem and action upon it is also necessary -- so do I say that this willingness is not enough either. There's still an action part that's missing in your friend's philosophy. You have to make the offer of doing everything (or whatever parity substitute you feel is more appropriate), and then you have to fulfill that commitment if your offer is accepted.

At our house, the rule is that everything is each person's responsibility, unless somebody else specifically relieves you of a given responsibility. Certain things we have negotiated -- we each cook dinner two night a week, for example -- and sometimes these involve a trade off -- e.g. I'll do something that's easy for me and harder for him in exchange for him doing something that's easy for him and harder for me. If something has not been negotiated, and nobody else has come to claim responsibility for it, it's on your plate! It doesn't always work so smoothly in practice, since he's not always conscientious about identifying responsibilities, but we find it is the best kind of parity for us (sort of like Churchill's comment on democracy: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried").

"It matter not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

I find all this talk of

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Tue, 06/29/2010 - 16:17

I find all this talk of parity and equal division of labour interesting! Do nonADDers keep a constant tally in their heads of who did what?

0 is not hard to keep track of

Submitted by Sueann on Tue, 06/29/2010 - 18:12

If the ADDer does nothing (and thinks it's his right to be that way), then it's not hard for the non-ADDer to keep track of. The trick is to change that number from 0, and I haven't figured that out yet.

In my case, it's complicated by physical problems on my part that make it extraordinarily difficult to do it all. We don't have the option of hired help. We are walking on a cliff's edge with money all the time anyway. Niether of us is a big spender, just small earners. 3 years of him not working really ruined us financially.

parity of effort

Submitted by arwen on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 02:40

MIss B, I can't speak for all non-ADHDers about this. I definitely do not sit around tallying up what each of us did, in my head or on paper. My husband and I negotiate what needs to be done and who should do it, during our three-times-a-week formal meetings. And we both note things each has done (and the other has done) beyong what was negotiated -- or what fell short of the plan. But it isn't about a division or parity of labor in our house in the first place. It's about *parity of effort*. We don't try to achieve parity of effort each day or even each week. In the spring I have terrible allergy problems that give me migraines and it's much harder for me to get things done. In winter, my husband has problems with Seasonal Affective Disorder that makes it much harder for him to get things done. Over 35 years, it's been a pretty equal effort. The main difference has been that I've had to push him to the effort, and he hasn't had to push me -- which I can't entirely help resenting.

But as Sueann points out, sometimes it doesn't require any "tallying", regardless. When both spouses work full time andthe ADHD spouse is sitting in a recliner surfing the web all evening long, while the non-ADHD spouse is cooking, dealing with the mail, taking care of the financial accounts and doing kp, that evening's efforts are pretty obviously not at parity. (Of course, if the situation were reversed the next night, then you'd have parity over the longer term -- but to be honest, in my experience that doesn't tend to happen in many marriages between ADHDers and non-ADHDers.)

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

Miss Understood

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 03:19

I didn't mean to imply that you "sit around tallying up what each of us did" in some mean and nasty way. I was simply curious.

I am usually just struggling to focus on and keep track of what needs to be done, I couldn't keep track of who did what or what required more effort! I’m not even sure how to measure someone else's effort … hmmmm I don’t think I have ever really consciously tried, I'm too wrapped up in my effort. Good thing so is hubby I guess!

My hubby and I push each other and cheer each other on. I think I may do more pushing of hubby but I know hubby does more pushing of the kids. But so long as things get done and everyone is happy and healthy I don't worry about the rest.

I really don't know what to say to the people married to someone who does literally (or nearly) nothing, especialy if they refuse treatment. I'm too bossy of a lady, and alpha bitch, hubby would be out the door for that and he knows it.

Ms. Understood

Submitted by arwen on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 13:31

I'm sorry if my post sounded like I thought you were implying anything of the sort -- I certainly didn't take it that way. I was really trying to say that there may be (probably are) some non-ADHD spouses who actually *do* "tally up" in a mean and nasty way -- I've seen some non-ADHDers who are like this, even if they aren't married to people with ADHD, and I can imagine what they'd be like if they were. But I'm not one of them, so I can't speak to how they look at it.

But (I was also trying to say), just because I don't "tally up" doesn't mean that I have no means of assessing parity. To explain: I'm a pattern analyst by nature. It often doesn't even require conscious thought. I look at something, I think about something, and if I have some critical mass of data in my brain about that thing (and I cannot quantify how much data constitutes a critical mass is, sorry) -- automatically and usually completely unconsciously the data organizes itself into patterns which leap out in front of my conscious brain. I've been able to do this since very early childhood, and I suspect that the ability has been unconsciously honed throughout my life. (Believe me, I know that this is an amazing gift to have.) From what I have seen of other people in my life, I've concluded that most people's brains don't work quite this way or perhaps not to the same degree or not as unconsciously. I certainly don't suggest that they should! or that people should exercise themselves to make them work this way. This is just my way.

I think it's great that you and your spouse have found ways that work for you. In a sense, I think you have achieved the parity I've been talking about with an instinctive approach and without having to get into the gritty details and analysis -- you push him, he pushes the kids, sounds like the effort is about even -- doesn't sound like there's a big disparity in happiness levels either. My husband and I used to be able to make things work that way, before his ADHD got so much worse in midlife. Now, for us, those days are gone, and we need to use a much more negotiated approach to ensure that parity.

I don't think it makes any difference *how* you achieve some relative parity -- as long as you get there! My experience has been that when there is trouble getting there, a more negotiated approach has been necessary, and that's all I can offer to others who may be struggling with this.

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." -- Albus Dumbledore

Negotiating

Submitted by Hoping4More on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 13:59

I am so willing to negotiate, but often when I broach a particular topic my wife hears whatever I say as a criticism, no matter how I try to make it NOT sound like a criticism. If I am raising an issue because of something she does that makes me feel bad in some way, the criticism is implicit, no matter how I phrase it. In other words, simply telling her something she does makes me feel bad, or uncomfortable, or whatever, is a criticism. And I can't disagree. And I understand that she is hypersensitive to criticism because she has gotten a lot of it in her life. I get that.

Still, the only way to negotiate a solution is to raise an issue, and I have gotten to the point where I don't like to raise ANY issue because she responds so negatively - either by feeling crushed, like she is a terrible person, etc or by getting angry and criticising, belittling or snapping at ME in return. Neither of those feels good. I can not figure out how to get her to a place where she is willing to talk about anything in a collaborative manner.

I know - there will be some who wil respond that the answer is to stop criticising. But the fact of the matter is that in any relationship, each person is going to do things that rub the other the wrong way. How do we resolve these things if we can't talk about them?

I know part of my wife's problem is that she doesn't know how to raise issues. I can't tell you how many times she is telling me about an issue at work, where at some point I will ask - have you said anything? And her answer is always "no." And she always has a reason why she can't raise the issue.

My sense is she really has difficulty with conflict. I am someone who has no problems hearing if someone has an issue with something I did, whether I intended it or not, and I have no problem letting people know when they have done something that I take issue with. I don't have a need to raise every little thing (tho my wife might say differently), but I have learned that raising it and dealing with whatever the reaction might be is better than letting it fester, just hoping it will go away, etc. (And byt the way, I haven't always been like this. It took a lot of therapy for me to be able to express my feelings, especially to say "ouch!" I used to be the kind of person who didn't like to "make waves" until I learned that in the long run that's just not good for me, or for the relationship.)

Sorry for the rambling . . . .

It's Hard Not To

Submitted by Ren on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 09:37

Miss B, I don't think it's a conscious tallying. But it's hard to not keep "score" when you feel like you're running around like a maniac trying to keep the world from caving in and see that your spouse seems to find time -- a lot of time, in fact -- relaxing and working on hobbies, etc. Your mind can't help but wander to three options: 1) you live in the Twlight Zone, where things like cleaning and paybing bills don't actually matter; 2) your spouse is 500% more efficient than you, and just got his share of things done a lot faster and so has time to sit back; or 3) you are, in fact, doing everything or almost everything, and your spouse just isn't pulling his weight. As much as some ADD spouses would like to believe it, Option #1 is not reality, we all know from experience that Option #2 isn't a reality either, so that leaves Option #3.

I wonder if it's possible that in dual-ADD couples there's more parity because there's an implicit understanding that the other person isn't going to pick up the slack if one party doesn't follow through. Because I feel like in my marriage, my ADD husband *knows* that I have it together, and that the clothes will be clean, there will be food in the fridge, the kids won't starve, etc. if he doesn't step up. Which, I think, makes it easier for him to goof off -- and not have to be a cheerleader because I'll do it regardless. That's partly why some non-ADD spouses really feel taken for granted.

The core issue, though, and I think what Sueann gets to in a lot of her posts, is: how does an ADD spouse sit back and watch his non-ADD spouse struggling each and every day -- whether it's having to juggle work and kids, or do tasks that are physically painful, or whatever -- and not have the urge to get up off their a-- and help? This is the part I don't get. I mean, if I saw a perfect stranger struggling on the street I would help them, not sit on my front porch playing solitaire while I watched them collapse in front of me. Obviously I would help someone I love ten times over. It seems so cold -- sociopathic, even -- that someone who claimed to love and protect you would willingly let you suffer and struggle, without the slightest compassion or remorse. I always thought that a fundamental component of a marriage was that you did small things that would make your partner's life easier, or happier, even if that small thing means little or nothing to you. It's really sad and depressing that a lot of ADD folks don't look at marriage this way.

Selfishness

Submitted by loosing myself ... on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 13:11

I really cant figureanything else out. They aren't blind.

blind brains, not eyes

Submitted by arwen on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 14:07

Obviously, ADHDers are not blind with their eyes -- but they are, with their *brains*. Things that you and I notice, they just *don't*, because their minds have been distracted or hyperfocused by other things.

How many of us non-ADHDers have at times been "preoccupied" with something we were intently interested in, or that required intense concentration to understand, and while we were preoccupied, didn't notice some thing that happened? I'm an extremely observant person (my parents' watchword while I was growing up was "Pay attention, we're going to ask questions later"), and this kind of thing nevertheless can happen to me on occasion. I have a very photographic memory, and I even have the ability to recall such a memory and look at it again, and notice things I wasn't consciously aware of at the time that it happened -- but even with this ability, there are *still* sometimes things I miss.

Not noticing what they see is something that many ADHDers live with *all* the time, every day of their lives, about everything that goes on around them, because for them being "brain-blind" in this way doesn't only happen when they are intently interested, or when they need great concentration, it happens about everything always.

This condition doesn't produce a callous attitude on their parts (or at least not usually) as much as it is like having built-in calluses on the ADHD brain that prevents the brain from processing what the eyes see. It *can* lead to a selfish attitude, certainly, but I know lots of cases where this hasn't happened, or only to a limited degree.

I suspect that with Sueann's spouse, her physical limitations have become part of the background scenery -- he's seen them over and over and it's just so much furniture cluttering up the background of his mind -- not because he *wants* that to happen, but because that's just how his brain has learned to cope with its physiological problems with processing the data his eyes see. And it's probably also difficult for him pull out from his brain whatever memories from the past that relate to her conditions, because most ADHDers have considerable trouble with memory formation, storage and retrieval. Yet, Sueann's husband might actually help that stranger on the street who was struggling -- because that person would *not* be part of the normal landscape, and so would stand out as something unusual and be seen not only with his eyes but also with his brain. And helping that stranger might be such an unusual thing that he would remember it later on.

I'm not saying this is OK -- but I am saying that I believe that *most* of us, if faced with this same mental condition, would probably exhibit the same behaviors. It's easy to judge harshly when you don't have these problems. Try to imagine coping every day with "tunnel vision" and no memory and ask yourself how well you would function -- and how you would appear to others. Good childhood training can help significantly to overcome these results, but unfortunately many ADHDers don't get what they need (especially if they were not diagnosed when growing up), and so have to try to unlearn their childhood habits and learn better new methods and skills as adults, when it's much harder to learn.

"It matters not what someone is born to be, but what they become." -- Albus Dumbledore

A Matter of Perception

Submitted by Hoping4More on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 16:36

I so agree with you Awren. It used to bother me that my wife never said "bless you" when I sneezed. When I finally asked her about it once after I sneezed, her reply was "You sneezed?" Now, I am not a demure sneezer - I sneeze quite loudly. I had a hard time believing she really didn't hear me, especially when the two of us were side by side in the car. I know there is nothing wrong with her hearing.

But it's really true. She did not hear me. Or more accurately, her brain tuned me out. It just didn't register. I didn't judge her for this, in that I didn't "blame" her for not hearing me.

So, what I started doing when I sneezed - always goodnaturedly - was to either ask "Did you hear me sneeze just then? or "Did you hear a sneeze? or "Hmm, did somebody just sneeze" - things like that. And she would say - "No." And then she would say "bless you."

Or, I would sneeze and wait a a bit and if she did not say bless you, I would say it myself - "Bless you." And then she might say - "Oh, sorry. Bless you."

It actually got to be quite the running gag. I'd sneeze, and it would register a little belatedly, and she would good naturedly rush to say "bless you" before I said something. And sometimes in her rushing she'd actually say the wrong phrase - like "excuse me." It was hysterical - she knew she was supposed to say "something" but she couldn't come up with the right words fast enough.

In all this, it was very apparent to me that it really was a lot of work for her to do something that was so second nature for me.

And now, she almost always hears me sneeze and says "bless you" without any prompting from me. And I always say "thank you" - more than just the routine thank you I say to most people, but one which carries the undertone of "thank you for noticing that I sneezed and for saying bless you."

Now if I could only get her to hear when people say bless you to HER, so that SHE says thank you to them . . . (smile)

(It occurs to me that someone is going to read that last comment as if I just totally negated what she DID do by mentioning what she DOESN'T do - and I am so not doing that!)

Pardon me if this seems

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 21:41

Pardon me if this seems obvious to you but ... why does it matter if she blesses you after you sneeze or not? Its such a little thing and based on superstition that one's soul is trying to escape when you sneeze. This isn't something that affects your quality of life or anything.

Does it Matter?

Submitted by Hoping4More on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 06:29

It matters because there are certain things that people do or say to each other in certain situations that if nothing else, honors our common humanity. We spend hours and hours teaching these social conventions to our kids. Things like saying please when you ask for somethng and thank you when you get it. Like holding the door when you are going into a store and someone is coming behind you, and like saying thank you when someone holds a door for you. Like pushing the "door open" key on the elevator when you see someone running for it, and then saying thank you when someone does. Like saying "excuse me" when you burp. And like saying "bless you" when someone sneezes and saying thank you to someone who does.

It Doesn't Have to Make Sense to You

Submitted by Ren on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 12:44

Miss B, I notice that when the non-ADDers write that they wish their spouse would do x or y, your immediate response is "Why is that important?" This questions seems to miss the point. We are all individuals, with our own thoughts, feelings, and preferences. We (including you) should not have to justify why a particular act holds signficant meaning to us, or why it would make us happier. Have you ever heard the saying, "One man's trash is another man's treasure"? The same goes for actions as well as things -- certain actions, while they may be seemingly silly or superstitious to you, may be very significant for another person. If I might say so, it's not your place to say whether any particular action will affect another person's quality of life -- how do you know that it doesn't?

It's true that each of us has the choice to honor the perspective of other people, or not. Perhaps to perfect strangers, you have a lesser obligation to do so. But when you make a commitment to join your life with another person until death do you part, to "honor and cherish" that person, you are making a commitment to try to see the world through their eyes and to do your part to bring them joy in the ways that matter to them, even if it makes no sense to you. Otherwise, what is the point of marriage? Is it just a business partnership, to join incomes and divide labor? I would argue that it's more than that -- the ideal is to join souls, which means having empathy and understanding for your partner's point of view.

Which brings me to a point you made on another post, and which I have been thinking about for a long time since I read it. I believe you wrote recently that no one can have expectations of another person, only hopes and wants. I disagree completely. It's true that you cannot have expectations of people who have made no representations to you that such expectations are OK or legitimate. However, when you make a *promise* to someone, you create expectations. When my employer says he will pay me a certain amount of money to do my job, and I agree to do the job in exchange for the money, have I not created an expectation that I will show up for work and do the job? Or, am I allowed to skip work for a week and then, when my employer gets mad, tell him he has no right to *expect* me to show up, that he can only *want* or *hope* for me to? If I call you and promise to meet you at Grand Central Station at noon tomorrow, do you show up there *expecting* me to show up, or just *wanting* and *hoping* for me to?

The same things applied to a marriage. I got married in two different ceremonies, each from a very different faith from the other. Interestingly, they both had very similar vows: to honor and respect each other, to stand by each other in good times and bad, to support and understand one another, etc. So as a result, I *expect* my husband to live up to these promises in our every day life. No one held a gun to his head and told him to make these promises; he made them of sound mind and body and now, for "better or worse," he has some expectations to live up to. For my part, I need to understand that he may not live up to all the expectations, and be patient and forgiving as a result. But it doesn't mean that I can't have them in the first place.

I realize that expectations are a sore subject for people with ADD because it is often difficult to live up to them, and disappointment and anger (on behalf of both parties) often results. But that does not mean that expectations in and of themselves are invalid, or wrong. Our society functions because of shared expectations of how we will treat each other (our laws are based on them, for example), and individual relationships more so. To use an analogy, it's more difficult for people in a wheelchair to get around in society, and we should do things, like have disabled accessibility, to help them. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't continue to design our buildings with the assumption that *most* people can walk normally. We have to accommodate both.

conscious struggle

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 14:10

I ask why these things are important to gain a better understanding.

I have always wondered why people go so upset with me if I am too distracted, lost, confused or mind-clouded that day to say something like "bless you" or "you're welcome" For myself the effort of finding and forcing out the words "bless you" at the right time, with the right tone of voice is such an effort its just not worth it to me.

It seems like so much effort (and embarrassment if my timing is off or my tone of voice wrong or if the words come out wrong) for something so small.

Please allow me to vent a little here.

You see, there is more to saying "bless you" than just saying the words ... nonADDers also get upset with you if you don't say "bless you" at the exact right moment, with the exact right tone of voice and the exact right facial expression. These things may come naturally for you but they are a conscious struggle for me.

When I also have to remember to change the oil, bring home milk, fold the laundry, listen when you are speaking and the million other things that are natural for you but a conscious struggle for me, is it fair to then also expect that I also say "bless you" every time you sneeze? I am thinking of the straw that breaks the camel's back here.

I know that nonADDers married to an ADDer are often carrying such a heavy load that they feel they are about to break. But surely some of those straws can just be allowed to blow away in the wind?

Most of the straws I carry on my back are ones you wouldn't even consider a straw, but they are heavy on my back. Yes, saying "bless you" and "You're welcome" are heavy straws on my back ... ones I wish I didn't have to carry along with everything else.

Today I was at a morning yoga class for preggo moms. The instructor asked us to do something and I couldn't understand what it is she wanted. She stared at me which made everyone else stare at me, so I couldn't even look at what they were doing to copy it and I was anxious because they were all staring at me. The instructor repeated her instruction but my mind was in a fog of ADD and anxiety. I couldn’t get what she was saying to compute, I just couldn’t quite grasp it. I just stood there trying to get my brain to work. Finally she walked up to me and grabbed my arms and lifted them up and rotated my hands out. She had more or less been telling me to “hold up my arms and face my hands outwards” I couldn’t even grasp that! I was humiliated I left the class and sat in my car crying for a few minutes before going home. I hate ADD. I hate it being a struggle to say “excuse me” or “bless you” I hate having a room full of people stare at me like an idiot because I don’t understand something as simple as “raise your arms and turn outwards”. I could never go back to that class now *sigh*

sorry

I Agree with You Both

Submitted by Hoping4More on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 15:25

I agree with what you said, Ren. AND with what you said, Miss B. People and society have every right to place expectations on people AND for someone with ADHD, often those expectations are overwhelming. But I don't think that means there shouldn't be expectations. AND I don't think that just because there is an expectation it MUST be met.

Re: me and my wife: When I express an expectation to my wife it is totally up to her how to respond. She might tell me she will comply with my expectation. She might tell me she will try, but knows she will have difficulty (which may or may not be because of her ADHD). She might tell me there is no way she can/will comply with my expectation, which might be due to all sorts of reasons - because she knows it will be impossible for her (which may or may not be because of her ADHD), because she thinks my expectation is unfair or unreasonable, or because she doesn't want to put in the effort, etc. Just because I have an expectation does not mean I am demanding it be met. I might be upset or angry if it is not. And if that's the case, then I need to decide what to do with that. But there are lots of other possible responses I might have. I might decide it's not that important. I may decide I was in fact being unreasonable. I may decide that it's an expectation I don't need to have met right away, but might come back to at some point in the future. I might ask my wife if there is something I might do to help her meet it. Or maybe there is some way in which I can adjust the expectation so it can be met. etc. etc. My stating an expectation is only the starting point of the conversation. I'm not sure why my wife and others seem to think that if I ask it, I am *demanding* it be met *right away* or even *at all.* That is quite an assumption on her part.

In the case of the "bless you" example, (or the example of not saying thank you at "appropriate times") I don't think I'm the only one who might think that sort of thing is just "rude." I'm guessing many other members of American society expect that when one sneezes a person who hears the sneeze will say bless you (or when one holds a door the other will say thank you). The underlying assumption (unspoken) is that both people understand the "cultural norms" of American society. Many people assume that if a person who hears a sneeze does NOT say "bless you" (or thank you when a door is held) the person hasn't been taught manners, or maybe has been taught them but chooses not to use them for some reason. I'm thinking that the "assumption" might be that the person is rude, or crasss, or self-absorbed, or some such thing. I'm guessing that MOST people would NOT tend to assume that the person might have ADHD. In fact, when I first mentioned it to my wife, she had not yet been diagnosed with ADHD, and I remember being quite surprised that she wasn't using what seemd to me one of the most "basic" manners. The only explanation at the time that came to mind for me was that she hadn't been taught. Of course, now I know otherwise. :-)

you "got" it

Submitted by arwen on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 21:55

Hoping, if you can see that both MIss B and Ren have some valid points on this question of expectations, and why, as you have explained in your post, I say kudos to you -- you have made a terrific amount of progress in quite a short time! This bodes so well for your own situation. It sounds to me like you're really getting the messages that Melissa and Ned try to promote here. You go!

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

Aw, Thanks Arwen

Submitted by Hoping4More on Fri, 07/02/2010 - 07:16

I'm definitely working to "get it." It helps that there are a few other posters here that also promote the messages that Melissa and Ned try to promote. If I hear something often enough, it will eventually sink in. :-)

I do appreciate your affirmation and your comment that I seem to have made much progress, but especially your comment that it bodes well for my situation. That is, after all, the end I have in mind.

Gesuntheit

Submitted by ginniebean on Sat, 07/03/2010 - 17:25

Hah! This is how things get all screwball. My first thought was the exact same as MissB's. Why would saying "bless you" be so important? It's honestly like visiting a strange country at times where the customs make little sense. I have to say I appreciated the gentlemans response and I can also see that it's coming from a loving and caring place.

I definitely agree that when you get married you are making a committment to see the world thru their eyes and these few posts illustrate exactly how difficult that is. If I had been coached about what for me would seem so inconsequential I'd have been deeply puzzled. The question could become then why don't you ask? I've learned that asking makes me look stupid and people generalise from there. Not wanting to look stupid in front of someone you love is not just an adhd thing but I suppose we do get a healthy share of it.

One thing I've noticed is that because of reflexive thinking often the non-add spouse attributes what we do or don't do to what they think must be the cause. This seeing the world thru 'their eyes' thing does need to go both ways. Hoping4more, who spoke about his wife, was demonstrating how he was able to look thru her eyes and the understanding this brought him revealed an issue that he could act on. This insight allows him to feel he is able to protect his wife from harsh and undeserving social judgement and I think it's really darn sweet. I have to say I don't think you guys are any better at seeing the world thru our eyes than we are at seeing yours.

I also agree that everyone has expectations and that they are vital. For me, marraige means fidelity, love, and desiring the best for each other. Should any of these core expectations not be met then there's going to be a huge problem. When people get married they are signing not only a legal contract but also a lot of unspoken contractual agreements. It's important to do your best to live up to those and some of them are non-negotiable for most people.

I find it interesting that you bring up the idea of access for the wheel chair bound. I think there's something often missing in these sorts of conversations and that is access issues. Just as someone in a wheel chair needs a ramp to get into the building so do people with ADHD. It's a different kind of ramp and it's not visible which makes it really hard to see. Many of us with adhd need access into this social world, social scripts and mores that you intuitively learned and understood we often didn't. One way to give access is to develop communication skills. It's just so darn cool how this thread illustrates this so well. Hoping4more just answered the question and explained his reasoning whereas you saw the question as impertinence. (no judgement upon you lord knows I boggle things plenty)

I can't speak for MissB but when I had that same question pop into my head it was pure curiosity on my part.

My personal recommendation for those who have communication problems with a spouse write e-mails or text or anything that can skirt around the auditory issues which will also help skirt some of the attribution errors too.

Also, I think the whole we didn't learn these social skills because we just didn't notice is not true although it does play a part. I mean how the heck can you get to thirty and have never heard someone saying "bless you" after a sneeze? I think it really is more a matter of how things get learned. ADHD has low working memory as one of it's features. Working memory means that there is a limit in how much a person can process mentally. If you can like most people use 4 items of information or four chunks of information and juggle those in your mental brain you'll be able to decode or understand information with that particular amount of complexity. If you are only able to process 2 items or chunks of information there's going to a lot of things you simply will not be able to figure out because the complexity of them requires 4 working memory slots. I suspect this is how things are learned "intuitively" you just figure them out or decode the messages (most are never spoken about or written) when you juggle all four balls.

People often say that ADHD individuals seems immature socially and I'll grant this is true. I think the reason for a lot of it is simply because our social world employs a lot of heavy working memory load items that must be decoded using the average working memory capacity. A lot of the mental struggle MissB speaks of is a struggle with working memory and honestly you truly can't begin to fathom just how much work it really is.

Just saying, before we can honour your perspective we have to understand it and vice versa.

To Ren and Arwen

Submitted by Sueann on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 18:11

Wow! You two ladies really "get it," don't you? I've never seen such cogent descriptions of what my life is like. Thank you so much! I really feel "understood" and that is rare. It actually made me cry a bit.

Arwen, I really think you particularly understood something I really struggle with. Although my physical condition has gotten somewhat worse lately, I've visibly walked "differently" all my life. The car accident just made everything worse. My husband first got to know me casually many years ago. We worked at adjoining locations in the same mall. We didn't start dating until at least 10 years later when we happened to work together. He never approached me because he couldn't remember my name or where he knew me from and he thought "Don't I know you from somewhere" sounded too lame. So, to him, I've always been the lady who walks funny. When we were dating, I was very scared for him to see the damaged leg. He told me he never noticed before (although he later told me he did notice and was just being nice) and told me it didn't matter to him; he was more interested in my brains and personality than my leg.

Maybe he thinks part of that is expecting the same things from me that he would expect from a physically able wife. I'm no "shrinking violet" and am a bit of a feminist, so maybe he thinks helping me out of the car would be insulting. Not to me, I'd help him if situations were reversed. It's just practical to help someone who needs help. It opens up an area I can discuss with him. I know he isn't deliberately mean, just clueless. And he definitely would help the stranger in the street. That's what he does for a living, in a manner of speaking.

Thanks again. I wish there were an ADD spouse support group where I live but there's not, so this website will have to do. You both have done me good today.

The first time I was preggo I

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 19:17

The first time I was preggo I had to train my hubby to help me with things. To help me stand up, to carry heavy stuff, to hold the door open for me. Then I had to keep up that training with the baby stroller and having a kiddo in my arms. He wasn't being mean, he wasn't unloving. He was just clueless, living in his own head so much he didn't SEE me struggling to stand, then when he did see me struggling he didn't really know what to do, and then when he knew what to do (because I told him over and over) he would often not repsond quickly enough because the ADD brain can be slow to respond.

With the second baby he had to be re-trained. It didn't take nearly as long as the first time. Then I started to have a hard time towards the end and with the birth. Then he had to do everything, even help me to the toilet for a couple of weeks!

This time around he has finally started doing most things without prompting. I figure if we have one more kiddo it will finally be automatic. LOL

Anyways what I'm trying to say is if you want something from an ADDer you better ask for it, again and again. Expecting them to figure out what you want and how to give it to you won't happen. If we could do that, we wouldn't have a disorder! *sigh*

Arwen, I brought up this subject with my husband yesterday

Submitted by Sueann on Sun, 07/11/2010 - 11:54

I had fallen and could not get up. I cried out when I fell (I often do, it's quite startling to find oneself on the floor without warning) and woke him from a nap. I did not mean to. I've found that he can't help me to get up when I fall, but I kind of appreciate the emotional support while I scoot on my butt across the house to somewhere I can find something to pull myself up on. So, rather vulnerable, I brought up to him the idea that he might not realize how bad it is for me because he's so used to it. He totally rejected it. He feels he should not have to do anything extra because of my disability. Apparently, since he works he's made his contribution. He admits he should do things I can not do (like climb the attic stairs; he's actually been doing that), or things that are stereotypically male (like get rid of the birds the cat kills or wheel the big trash cans to the curb) but that I should absolutely do "normal" things even if they're painful, because he works. He got quite angry at me for suggesting that I need more help than "normal" wives. He also thinks while I am doing "easy" things that, to me, are still work (like homework or writing eBay listings to sell things) that he should be able to lie on the bed and do nothing. I don't know where to go with this. He never changes his mind about anything and he thinks that he should not have to do anything extra to accomodate my problem. Is that the ADD or is he just being a jerk? Or both? Or am I wrong for suggesting that my husband may have to make more of a contribution to the upkeep of our house than if he were married to someone else?

I hate to say it but he is a

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Sun, 07/11/2010 - 19:26

I hate to say it but he is a jerk. The worst kind of jerk.

Every ADDer (even those with depression) I have ever known rose to the challenge when faced with an ill or disabled friend, partner, spouse or child. Even if they got complacent and started to slack off they would not be as lazy, selfish and callous as your hubby is to you.

I'm so sorry, but his mistreatment of you is not the result of his disorder but a result of being an abuser.

I agree with MissBehavin

Submitted by Asetamy on Sun, 07/11/2010 - 20:58

My husband and I have many, many problems relating to adhd and not. Though we have many issues, even surrounding his anger, he has never been so inconsiderate to make a disabled person do things they shouldn't. Example, when I was pregnant he never made me carry in all the groceries or carry around our toddler. I am in no way comparing being pregnant to being disabled but an example to illustrate my point. He is very considerate to others that are disabled and the elderly. When I was pregnant I was the one to do the dishes and other basic chores but at that time I was a stay at home mother and we agreed that it would be my duty (primarily anyhow) as long as he was working carpentry full time.

I have seen many of your posts on here and it really does seem that your husband has more than adhd issues. People who have this disorder are not automatically jerks that are incapable of kindness. Only you know what is best for you but if your husband is incapable of accommodating your needs due to disability or not ( but especially issues surrounding your limitations), then maybe you have to question if that relationship is what is best for you. I am in no way saying it is or isn't but it does sound as if it may be time to re-evaluate your situation.

I've seen a lot of your posts too

Submitted by Sueann on Sun, 07/11/2010 - 23:32

I think you understand the feeling of being blindsided by ADHD the way I do, especially since your husband knew he has ADHD when he married you and didn't tell you. I know that, like me, you are going to school to have a stable career to support your family whatever chaos your husband's ADHD brings to your life The funny thing is my husband was the kindest most considerate person in the world when we were dating. I've shared a lot of stories about the things he did for me (driving 30 miles to pick me up for work, for example). Now his hyperfocus is on his clients who suffer from severe mental illnesses and he seems to use up his caring capacity as well as his energy before he comes home from work. I certainly didn't get what I bargained for.

hate to make unequivocal judgments

Submitted by arwen on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 00:40

But I have to say that on this score, your spouse seems to me like he's just being a jerk.

It sounds to me like his idea of fairness in marriage is "equal contribution". And there's nothing unfair about that -- *as long as it includes the idea of "equal burden"* -- in others words how much each partner *costs* the marriage, i.e. reduces that contribution. And it sounds like he is only looking at "now" and not at the overall average over time. What tune has he sung, though, when he hasn't been able to contribute the way he does now? And what tune will he sing if it happens again?

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

Arwen, you've hit one of my sore points

Submitted by Sueann on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 17:20

which is the constant fear that he'll go back to being the way he was--the non-working, all-take-and-no-give guy I woke up and found myself married to. I became more vulnerable to this when I lost my job and we agreed that I should go to school full-time so I can get into my career sooner. (I am working for the summer.) This is so much struggle, and the counselors we were seeing were not interested in helping us work it out. I am not sure I can live with someone who will not do anything, and we can't even get our stove fixed. He can take meds for his ADD but there isn't anything I can take to fix my physical problems.

We got into this again last night. He said he was too tired to do anything because he had to drive half an hour home through a thunderstorm. I've been begging him for years to look for a house where he works so he can avoid the long commute, but he says he can't.

Sueann, apologies if this has already been covered

Submitted by sapphyre on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 19:57

But can you look for a house close to where he works? I assume this would be a place for both of you to live in. Is it the looking for the house that is the problem? Or does he have a reason for not living in the same town where he works?

If it is just about looking for the house, the ADHD community here has managed to establish that it's simpler in a couple for each of you to do the tasks you are better at. It is a lot of work to find a shortlist of houses. But it can usually be done on the internet. Also, moving may be the motivation he needs to help get the house fixed up, etc.

{ Hugs } I know it's not easy. I have a non-working ADHD husband too. Fortunately, for him he also has chronic pain and anxiety, but (most days) is able to do some housework, and get the kids off to school, and be there for them when they come home.

House problem is due to hyperfocus on his job

Submitted by Sueann on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 22:59

Let's call the town where we live city A. I work here and my school is here. His job is in city B, about 30 miles away. His job involves driving from one patient's house to another, so he hates the long commute on top of it. However, I like to drive and would not mind the long commute. I can't get to B to house-hunt. Rental agencies are only open 9-5, which is dumb, and since I work, I could only get there about 15 minutes before they close. I'd have to pay the deposit, get the key, look at the place and get the key back to the office inside of 15 minutes. I just can't do it. He is driving around city B all day, and I feel that, if he wanted to, he could find a place for us. But he hyperfocuses on the patients so much that he doesn't feel like he can break away. (He never takes a lunch hour.) Other people at his office have moved, so I'm sure he could work it out if he wanted to. He'd rather curse the darkness than light a candle. I guess I should be grateful he's working. I just wish he wasn't so tired when he gets home, and would be willing to contribute something to the housework.

What about taking a day off to look at a bunch of places?

Submitted by sapphyre on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 23:22

Hi Sueann

Sometimes we can only see one solution ... there's usually more than one option.

If you were sick, you could take a day off work. Not sure if you are 'casual', i.e. you don't get paid if you don't work, but it might be worth it if you could review the houses online in advance and go and see a bunch of them in one day.

They aren't open on Saturdays either? That's crazy!

I know you don't get much paid leave in the US, I sympathize with you.

Sapphyre

I am casual

Submitted by Sueann on Thu, 07/15/2010 - 07:14

I don't get paid if I don't work, and might be less likely to be called back for future work. He has used up a lot of his vacation days for court for driving while on Wellbutrin (which is not a crime, but the keep continuing the case). And no, they aren't open on Saturdays. I agree it's crazy. I just want him to think about "us" for a bit and stop hyperfocusing on the clients. Online listings are great but you still have to look at the place between 9-5.

Online Listings

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 23:30

Most house hunting I have ever done I did sitting on my butt at home, the Internet is a wonderful thing. Would your hubby be open to at looking listings online? If you found one or two possible places and you gave him a list of what to look for and a camera to take pictures, would he be willing to drop by and have a look?

Plenty of nonADD people also

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 14:29

Plenty of nonADD people also sit back and do nothing while the spouse struggles. I honestly do not think that ADD is to blame for a spouse who is a free loader.

Most ADD people I know, in real life and online, are struggling to better themselves and actualy care about helping their loved ones and to lighten the load. I have known many hard working ADDers.

A free loader is a free loader, ADD or not.

Good feedback

Submitted by Aspen on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 09:38

I really appreciate all the comments here! Miss Behaven I agree with you that for me I prefer if ppl don't say *bless you* after I sneeze, however I think the point here was that for Hoping4More it was important, it was a sign of good manners, and it was an acknowledgement that she was even in the room.........all these things are sometimes challenges with an AD/HD spouse. Different areas of this are important to different ppl. For me I cannot STAND if my husband doesn't acknowledge me when I am speaking to him. Sometimes he hears me, sometimes he doesn't, but when it is important and I ask him if he heard me I get the irritated *yes of course* type comment and it makes me want to scream...as if I am supposed to magically know the times he is listening/paying attn vs the times when he isn't.

I don't get upset at having to check too often, but I go straight to furious if he has the nerve to cop an attitude. I very irritated with him today because he screwed up in a way that made my night horrible and inconvenient and involved having my parents bring me a car to use because he put it off the 3 times I reminded him it was time to change the oil in the car over the last 10 days. My light was staying on a bit after I started the car last night, so I checked the oil and it was in my opinion too low to drive, but he, for some reason no one will ever understand, had all the oil he'd bought for oil changes with him in the other vehicle 2 hours away! I am so angry at him and his procrastination right now, so if there is some venting here please make allowances for me.

Why will an ADD person always always wait until things are literally crashing down around them...or someone else...before they will take action and change the darn oil which he acknowledged 10 days -2 weeks ago were overdue. He has had time.....I am not saying that he isn't busy but he has had time and he was reminded a minimum of 3 times. Ok deep breath!

I really appreciate the comment about blind brains because I haven't ever seen it that way. I have a friend who is legally blind and is regularly upsetting ppl because she can't read social cues or tone of voice at all. We make a lot of allowances for her because she can't see body language and reactions. I suppose ADD is not that different.

Another comment that really resonated with me was the one about the AD/HD person knowing there is always someone there to pick up the slack. They know that they are safe to be as scattered as they want because someone who loves them is there and they have their back and they will try to pick up anything you drop. I think of it as working with a solid safety net. My husband is a helpful guy and he does have my back, but I feel like for me it is like working with a safety net with great big holes.......if I fall he MIGHT be there to catch me or then again he may not...or he might be the reason I fell in the first place.

Copping an Attitude

Submitted by Hoping4More on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 15:44

I also get furious when my wife cops an attitude. I also get an answer with a tone when I ask "did you hear me?" And I am very careful to not ask the querstion in an irritated way. I am simply requesting information. Trying to find out if I need to repeat my question, or rather, wait or ask for a response. It is infuriating to me when the reply has an "Of course I did you and why are you asking me" attitude about it. Grrrrrr.

This morning my wife asked me what seemed to be a simple question about why it is easier for the non-ADHD person to remember certain things. My answer had something to do with how our brains work differently, how the "executive functioning" in the brain of someone with ADHD processes things differently, has difficulty with heirarchies, prioritizing etc. And as we continued to talk about how some things that are automatic/easy for soeone like me are NOT automatic/easy for someone like her, I used the example of my never having to write a shopping list. How I just remember what I need to get. Well, her response was something to the effect of "That's because when you lived alone you only had to remember what YOU used and that's different than when you have to shop for a whole family and get what OTHER people want and . . . " Somehow, the conversation shifted to her getting defensive about how our brains work differently and how she has a perfectly acceptible reason for needing a list that has nothing to do with her ADHD. And it felt to me that if the conversatin were to continue it might have escalated - so I got the hell out of there! Sigh . . .

is there an echo in here?

Submitted by arwen on Thu, 07/01/2010 - 22:43

Because I have to say, as you did in a very recent post, I agree with both of you (grin).

Your wife has a valid point that the longer the mental list of shopping items gets, the harder it is to remember everything correctly. That's true even for most people without ADHD. And since part of why you don't have trouble remembering is probably because seeing the items as you progress through the store helps trigger and reinforce your recollection, which probably doesn't happen with your more distractible wife, it's understandable that she may not be able to appreciate that you also have a valid point.

And I agree with both of you about the attitude issue, as well. I can understand your feelings, because I used to get some of that from my husband too. He used to pull this absurd self-righteous act whenever he felt unfairly treated (when instead, what was happening was that he couldn't remember the actual facts, or he wasn't listening to what was actually being said), and once he had convinced himself that he was in the right and I had been a bad person, it was a herculean effort to drag him back to the world of reality. It would drive me wild, because although I'm not always kind or generous or patient or understanding, and I admit I don't always work hard enough at those things, I have always worked very very hard at being fair, and even my husband would be hard put to cite any previous instances of me treating him (or anyone) unfairly -- so where he could form a basis for such a belief was (and frankly still is) a complete and cosmic mystery to me. It was so fantastic (meaning unreal, not meaning wonderful), there was no other way to address it except head-on, and some of my angriest conversations with him were on this point.

He had to learn to consider the possibility that when I seemed to be unfair to him, there might be some other explanation for my behavior that was obvious to him. But I also had to learn that he didn't always hear what I was actually saying, or remember all the facts that were relevant. It helped him to understand better if I helped establish an appropriate context for my remarks (by refreshing his memory sometimes, or by providing a clarifying explanation of what we'd previously covered) and if I was careful to think about how he might hear and interpret my words, and try to find ways to express myself that would be less likely to be misunderstood (i.e., keep it simple, stupid! -- something I have a *lot* of trouble with).

In your conversation with your wife when you mentioned the shopping list example, it probably seemed like a more appropriate example to you than to your wife. She probably felt you were comparing apples and oranges -- she may see substantive differences between your shopping circumstances and hers, because she probably approaches, experiences, and thinks about shopping very differently from you. So perhaps she doesn't see how you can attribute the differences in your shopping approaches to her ADHD, and if so, I can understand how she might get irritated and/or feel like she was being unfairly judged.

I found with my husband, the more exact a match I could find between the circumstances of his experiences and mine, the better he could understand where the ADHD-driven differences were in the ways we would deal with or react to them. But that meant I had to try to figure out how his experiences seemed to *him*, before I could figure out whether they would seem to him like a near-exact match or not. That's not necessarily an easy thing to do, but it was worth the effort.

Hang in there!

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

Looking for a Response

Submitted by Hoping4More on Fri, 07/02/2010 - 09:25

So, it occurs to me, that when my wife doesn't respond to something I said, instead of asking "Did you hear me?" - which could be interpreted as accusatory - it might be better for me to make a statement like "I can't tell if you heard me or not." I suppose if I make some mental notes about which questions, comments and statements tend to set my wife's defensiveness in motion (I'm guessing there's probably some sort of pattern), perhaps I can come up with alternative ways of communicating the same thing. That might take a lot of effort on my part, but it's probably easier that trying to get her to change the way she hears me. :-)

But if she still doesn't respond, or if she says "I heard you" and nothing more, then what? Do I just wait a little longer to give her time to respond? Do I ask "Are you formulating your response?" Do I say "I'm hoping you respond in some way."

Response...

Submitted by YYZ on Fri, 07/02/2010 - 11:39

For my experience with hearing, "Did you hear me?" is one of the most embarassing traits of ADD. I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked that question, at it makes me hate myself when I know the answer is no. I was listening, then the phone rang, cat jumped in my lap, really distracting commercial came on, and so on... Have you seen Disney's "Up"? To distract the bad dogs from their single minded focus, all you have to do is point and excitedly say "Squirrel" !!! This was amusing to me because I understand :-)

Too many sources of sound = I really hear nothing... I was the "Telephone Tyrant" before Adderall. It is hard enough for me to stay focused on a phone call with distraction around, so if someone starts talking to me during a phone call, I end up not hearing either person talking to me and I scramble to make it "Appear" that I am following the conversation of the caller, embarassed that I lost their conversation and "Extremely" angry at the person interupting my call.

Not Hearing/Obviously not caring enough to listen was one of my greatest sources of self-loathing, I know that sounds dramatic, but imagine Trying to listen, and still not storing part of the conversation, then having to admit not "Paying Attention" when that is not really the case. Over and over your entire life. I notoriously can miss-hear too, that is as bad as not hearing, when you try to "Fill in the holes" of the missing conversation.

I had my hearing tested a few years back, because I believed I had to have a hearing disorder... I had very normal hearing... Damn, no excuse to blame the ears, so it IS me afterall.

Post ADD diagnosis and taking my meds, I am happy to report improvement in my hearing and memory. Not perfect, but better.

Hopefully some of my ramblings help explain the hearing issues some of us ADDer's face...

A lot of people with ADHD

Submitted by ginniebean on Sat, 07/03/2010 - 17:30

A lot of people with ADHD also have something called Auditory processing disorder. Nothing wrong with your hearing but processing the information is a whole different story. I find meds really help with this.

suggest a different emphasis

Submitted by arwen on Fri, 07/02/2010 - 13:52

I think in this situation, the non-ADHD spouse is best off by treating their ADHD partner as if they *probably* have heard but then again might just possibly have not heard -- whatever private reservations you may have. Because in my experience, the ADHD partner *does* hear more often than not, it's the response mechanism that isn't working so well.

In some cases, my ADHD spouse doesn't recognize that a response is needed, so I do have to say *something* at some point. So instead of asking about whether I was heard, I would be inclined to ask something about the response. I would wait a more-than-reasonable amount of time and then say something like, "Hon, I don't want to interrupt your thinking, but it's been x minutes and I do need an answer soon [if that's true]" or "I didn't mean to cause you a lot of mental effort when I asked about xyz, is this more complicated to address than I realized?" or even "I'm sorry, I started thinking about something else while I was waiting for your answer and I was wool-gathering -- did you say something that I missed?" In addition to not challenging their hearing, all of these statements provide the ADHDer with evidence that you either understand that they need time to think in order to answer, or that you recognize that you could have unintentionally contributed in some way to what seems to you to be their unresponsiveness, both of which can go a long way to relieving the embarrassment or frustration they may feel. Instead of sounding like a toe-tapping "I'm waiting!", they sound more like "Would it be possible for you to get back to me soon, please?" I don't know about you, but I'd rather hear the latter myself.

I hope you will forgive me if I speak to something you have not asked about. I notice in many of your posts, you seem to have an inclination to ask very direct questions. I understand that this generally can be a very useful and efficient way to acquire information. In my experience, however, directness is something that can be very unsettling to some ADHDers. I don't know if it's because they live in a kind of "fuzzy-brain" universe all the time and directness throws them, or whether they associate directness with being challenged, or whether their experience is that direct questions usually are seeking simple clear answers that are difficult for them to achieve, or all of the above, or what. All I know is that I have had considerably more success myself when I have fuzzed-up my questions into something that sounds less likely to seem difficult or risky for the ADHDer to answer. It takes longer to get the answers I need, but there's a lot less conflict around the process. It's something you may want to consider in your interactions with your ADHD spouse.

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

It could be that directness

Submitted by ginniebean on Sat, 07/03/2010 - 17:38

It could be that directness means scrutiny and scrutiny hasn't ended well more often than not.

Queen of Directness

Submitted by Hoping4More on Fri, 07/02/2010 - 14:20

Oh yes, I am the queen of directness. I'm not sure I even know how to ask a "fuzzy" question. I see your point, though, so I'm going to have to give that some thought. I'll take less efficient to contentious anyday!

norm of reciprocity

Submitted by brendab on Mon, 07/05/2010 - 10:39

Read an interesting book on persuasion this past weekend and I immediately thought that my ex BF Adder does not understand the norm of reciprocity or he thinks he does not have to honor it. According to this author, the norm of reciprocity is universal and very important. When we do something for someone this norm should kick in an underlying feeling of obligation on their part. If fairness is in operation, they will repay.

When two people operate under this norm of reciprocity there is fairness and equity in everyday social interactions, business dealings, and close relationships. The importance of giving reciprocal favors is that it builds trust and caring. Without this norm in operation in society, then it is every man for himself. The ideal use of this norm is when it is used in a genuine manner with follow through on promises between two people. So perhaps nonAdders intuitively understand this norm and use it. When they try to interact with a nonadder who doesn't understand this expected norm of behavior, then there is mistrust, disappointment, and feelings of not be cared for by the Adder.

I just found it very interesting that this norm of reciprocity is in operation without us realizing its impact on us daily. It sounds self serving to do things for others, expecting them to reciprocate. but if this is a basic norm of society and how people interact no wonder nonadders are so hurt by adders who are not operating with the same norm.

brenda

Harder than you think

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Mon, 07/05/2010 - 16:44

The norm of reciprocity requires that you 1) be aware and paying attention enough to notice all those acts of kindness etc done for you, 2) that you have a good enough working memory (as well as long term memory) to keep track of all those acts and who did them for you and when, 3) the ability to gauge just how much kindness (or how helpful) each act was, 4) to have the innate sense and ability to know when is a good time to reciprocate, 5) the ability to know how to reciprocate (or what acts to respond back with) and 6) the ability to motivate yourself to actually reciprocate and 7) are socially aware enough and have good enough self esteem to see when those returnig acts of kindess are welcomed and therefore know that you did good.

On all counts, this is not something that comes naturally or easily for an ADDer.

I have a hard enough with it, even with all my therapy and struggles with the disorder, even when I am medicated ... and I have to try to teach these things to my ADD child! *sigh*

yes I think this is exactly why

Submitted by brendab on Tue, 07/06/2010 - 09:26

Miss Behaven,

Your points are exactly why I believe that my exBF does not comprehend this norm of reciprocity. He is truly a good person, but when I met his friends for the first time--3 told me in private that he is selfish and lazy. They did it in a kind way (like a warning to me). I know exactly what they are talking about and he has been cut off from many "friends" because they are fed up. One of his friends took me aside and said "BF is 95% of what you want, but the other 5% is a problem, isn't it?" She was referring to him not working and being "selfish". She feels taken advantage of and limits the time he can spend at her house. He makes one promise and does another. I knew that there was something more going on than a character defect in this otherwise wonderful man.

I have read at least 60 books and spent hundreds of hours online reading. I have come to the conclusion that ADD makes it very likely that there is a disconnect going on in most of these irritating, disappointment behaviors. It is not intentional, but very hurtful. And the person with ADD is also hurt and confused because he has no idea this norm is operating or that he is breaking it in his closest relationships. I am going to copy and save your post to share with him at some opportune time.

I believe that most people intuitively know that there is reciprocity and they intuitively act on it, but they don't even know that it is a norm that operates to create love and trust in relationships. This man has lost the relationship with his son over this behavior, and I believe there is a good chance the son is also ADD. Is there any good information out there to explain what happens when fathers are ADD and their children are so devastated and hurt that they end the relationship? What does the child think and feel? I assume he feels much of what the mother feels.

Brenda

Curious

Submitted by Aspen on Mon, 07/05/2010 - 17:05

I understand what you say about the logistics of remembering all those things, but I don't do any of it consciously. I can see that it would maybe require a bit more conscious effort for a person who's brain isn't logging these things quite as naturally, but it seems to me that a lot of it is just expressing appreciate for things when you appreciate them. I don't believe that ADD ppl have any less of a tendency to like kindnesses or to not appreciate things. I'd even say because the experience a lot of ppl's frustration with them that they are perhaps more likely to notice kindnesses and appreciate. My ADD husband probably notices the things I do for him less than what other ppl do for him, but he certainly notices nice things I do for him too.

You asked earlier if nonADD people were keeping track. I can tell you that I definitely don't & my ADD husband would tell you that he definitely doesn't either. However there is a kinda switch that flips (and if you do any reading at all of Mars/Venus type thinging, it sounds like men tend to do this type of subconscious *score keeping* more than women) when you feel you are giving out a lot more than you are getting. I generally end up going to my husband and saying "I feel that lately I am carrying a lot of extra weight as far as......x, y, z whatever" He generally hasn't noticed, but when he thinks about it, will admit that he has been letting things slide so he picks it up. He generally doesn't say anything to me when he is doing extra I think because if he is doing so it is for a reason ......for example when my grandmother was dying and I was at the nursing home all the time, but there gets to be a point where I could pick up more and for whatever reason (probably the thrill of being lazier than normal :) ), I am not doing it. He wont say anything, but I will notice him in a grumpy mood more often ( he is seldom grumpy) and he'll start having an bit of an attitude toward me. When I recognize this, I'll either talk to him about it or just recognize that I'm not meeting enough of the responsibilites again, so I just pick them up again, usually with an apology.

So with that said, isn't there an amout of this that is just instinctual even within the family? I think relationships outside the family are even moreso. When someone does something nice for you, you notice that you feel good and appreciated. Therefore you feel warmer and closer to that person for showing that they value you. Because of that you invite her to go to lunch or offer to take the kids for a playdate...or whatever. When a family has us over for a nice meal, and we've had a really good time, we may invite them over to our house the next month. NOT out of a sense of obligation or keeping score, but because it was fun and we'd like to do it again. Or if we didnt have a particularly good time & don't necessarily want to repeat the experience, maybe just send them a nice thank you note.

I wonder if this issue reallly requires that much thinking. Isn't the point that a lot of it is subconscious?

There's a disconnect between

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Mon, 07/05/2010 - 17:25

There's a disconnect between my subconscious and the rest of me. An ADD child doesn't learn through osmisis the way other children do. Because they are not aware of the social interactions going on around them as well as an nonADD child, they do not pick up on social cues and therefore do not learn to socalize as well as nonADDers. I think the same applies here.

I have also leanred to wary of people doing nice things for me.

Also even if I want to invite gramdma over for dinner, I still have to fight my ADD to get myself to actualy invite her, make plans, cook dinner and have the meal. (Then clean up afterwards)

Why wary?

Submitted by Aspen on Mon, 07/05/2010 - 20:07

Yes I can understand that the subconscious/unsubconscious sides could have a disconnect, but probably somewhere it registers if you can figure out how to try to bring that forward.

Why do you feel wary of ppl doing nice things for you? Have you experienced it being with some type of ulterior motive? I wonder because I having ppl acknowledge what I am trying to do and making supportive comments or even doing something small that is nice and in recognition of what I am trying to do means a whole lot to me. It helps me feel that I am on the right track and that the work is worth it since it's making a difference to someone.

And I hear you on the following through on the desire to have someone over...or to even write a note. I have let many such opportunties pass buy out of busyness and I don't have ADD. I am sure we could all do better about that. I am just saying the *thought* is frequently the beginning of reciprocity.

I am wary

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Tue, 07/06/2010 - 14:50

I am wary of people doing things for me for a few reasons. Most of which I have been trying to work through, though some may always stay with me.

I fear that there are ulterior motives. As I have ADD I often miss any hidden meanings behind things as well as any hidden motives. This can infuriate other people and it can also set me up for failure, humiliation and pain. Its hard to tell when I am being used, being made fun of, being made an example of, or when people are doing something nice for me for there own gain (such as my sister in law making it look to others as though she has to help poor stupid me)

I fear the requirement of reciprocity. It is difficult for me to make sure that I “pay it back” properly. The right deed, at the right time, the right way. This can cause fear of failure and since I often do fail at this is also causes guilt, shame, sadness, a blow to my self esteem, loss of friendships etc

I am not very good at expressing gratitude or giving complements. Well I am not very good at expressing anything off the cuff in person. Give me time to think and write and I can manage. Do something nice for me and I am fumbling, stumbling, stuttering. People have a very low tolerance for a poor show of gratitude or a stuttered and awkward “thank you”. Complements often come out sounding forced and flat, because they are a struggle for me to get out of my brain and through my mouth without flubbing … though I usually flub anyways. People do not respond well to flubbed or awkward compliments.

Doing thing for me can make me feel like I can’t do it myself or can’t do it well enough. It is also embarrassing to see someone else do something with ease, something that I struggle to do myself.

It works that way for you

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 07/07/2010 - 03:07

A thought may come and be gone, lost to the winds and forgotten … if it even comes at all. An ADDer, especially one who is unmediated or untreated, is usually to busy struggling with RIGHT NOW to be thinking about how maybe next week we should have grandma over for dinner.

Also actually getting the thought to take shape and turn into an action is an uphill battle.

My mind is like a puzzle box. Imagine it full of puzzle pieces; each piece is something in my life, some task, person, place or thing. A piece for having grandma over for dinner, a piece for which exit to take on the freeway home, a piece for what size pants my hubby wears, apiece for wrapping the father’s day presents, a piece for brushing my teeth etc. The ones that are turned right side up are the things I can remember and focus on, the ones partially covered by other pieces are things I can sort of remember or vaguely grasp. Everything else is completely forgotten as if it doesn’t exist. Now every 3 seconds to 30 minutes (choose at random), toss the contents of the box so that pieces that were face up are now face down and pieces that were face down are now face up. This is what I have to work with.

The *thought* is frequently the beginning of reciprocity for a nonADDer, for myself it is (often) not the start of anything.

there's a book in you

Submitted by brendab on Wed, 07/07/2010 - 11:48

Miss Behaven,

Consider journaling or collecting your thoughts as you write here. you are very good at communicating what it is like to be ADD. you do not make excuses, but merely try to explain. You also don't blame or expect others to accomodate you. I hear your frustration sometimes, and your analogies are very good.

I would suggest you have a great deal to contribute to adders and nonadders to help us understand each other. You are doing us a great service sharing your thoughts. I am very serious that you might want to collect these posts for some future use. perhaps a pamphlet or short read for an adder to help him realize he is not alone. You are bridging between the two worlds very well. Thanks for your contributions.

Brenda

Amen!

Submitted by arwen on Sat, 07/10/2010 - 00:32

MIss B, I'd like to second Brenda's suggestion. You not only have a great understanding of your ADHD, you express yourself in a way that's useful to both ADHDers and non-ADHDers alike. I've been wishing and hoping for someone like you to post here to provide these kinds of information and explanations from the ADHD perspective.

Or, maybe you and Brenda and I should collaborate on a book!

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

I'd read it.

Submitted by Sueann on Sat, 07/10/2010 - 09:59

All of you are excellent writers. I've learned much from your posts.

I'd read it, too!!! I've

Submitted by newfdogswife on Sat, 07/10/2010 - 11:24

I'd read it, too!!! I've learned alot already and still continue to learn on a daily basis. Please include Aspen in the list of excellent writers.

I agree

Submitted by Aspen on Wed, 07/07/2010 - 15:00

with Brendab because you definitely do a good job helping me understand the ADD side of things while not appearing unsympathetic to the nonADD side which is sometimes where a disconnect can occur.

I can see why you would feel wary of others helping you if you have experienced ppl doing that for a bad motive or with their own agenda.....I am very sorry that has happened to you!

I also understand why having the thought doesn't motivate you to action the same way it may for a person without ADD, but would I be correct in saying a fundamental tool an ADD person needs is a way to capture those types of thoughts (those you want to act on *not now, but someday*) for later action? I ask because my husband and I have been working hard to implement the David Allen theory of organization which basically consists of capture everything, decide later what, if any, action you want to take about it, and every week review the things you are committed to and the things you want to commit to soon so that you can be at your most productive.

I feel the part that breaks down most frequently is the capture.

Also, if as a person with ADD, you acknowledge that having the *thought* doesn't necessarily motivate you do anything (and my husband acknowedges this same point), why is the excuse most frequently given with regard to not having done something he's said he'll do, that he THOUGHT about it, or that he INTENDED to do it. We have both learned this won't necessarily get anything done, and I get very tired of hearing this as if it is some type of justification. I will frequently say, "Babe, I'm glad that you thought about it/meant to do it/ intended to do it, but that didn't result in any action. You need to move past that stage into DOING."

I know that it makes the ADD person feel like what you are saying is that what they did is not good enough, but really at the end of the day isn't that really the point? I mean I am glad you thought about it, but you didn't do enough because you actually didn't do anything at all. I mean I understand it hurts to hear "not good enough or try again" but we all have to hear that regularly with regard to something we need to improve and I certainly can't see that it is loving to always be accepting inaction as justified. How does that help anyone improve? I'm not saying, obviously pick on every point, but sometimes the result of action....or inaction, is that you have to go back and do it correctly, isn't it?

david allen

Submitted by brendab on Thu, 07/08/2010 - 14:19

Aspen,

I am a fan of David Allen but am not consistent utilizing his ideas. Could you give us examples how you are using Allen's methods to help your ADD/nonADD relationships?

brendab

I So Hear My Own Situation in What You Describe

Submitted by Hoping4More on Thu, 07/08/2010 - 14:57

The excuse "I meant to do it" or "I thought about doing it" are all too frequent. I haven't yet tried a comment about appreciating that she thought about it or intended to do it, and then also expressing that the thought needs to be followed by an action. Maybe after expressing appreciation for the thought, asking if she has any ideas about how she might turn the thought into action? But since that is the crux of ADD - difficulty turning thoughts into action, I'm not sure how helpful that would be. (BTW - my wife does use the David Allen system, so I'm sure many of her thoughts DO make it to the list.)

External Structures

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Sun, 07/11/2010 - 16:30

I like to think of it this way - the "internal structures" for a person with ADHD are very disorganized - specifically their brains, which some describe as "noisy" or "going a mile a minute." This means that someone with ADHD has to create external structures to be able to get from point A to point B. Some of these that I've heard from people can work include:

carrying a small recording device to capture ideas as they happen
using a cell phone or blackberry the same way
carrying small 3x5 note cards to "jot down" ideas that happen (my husband does this one) then transfer to master list
have family meetings to understand specifically which chores will be done that week, and by whom. I have a system I suggest that uses recipe cards - one for each chore - that allows you to sort more easily than a list does
using a cell phone alarm or watch alarm to "beep" when a future project needs to be brought into the "now" to get done
key racks, mail baskets and other organizers of junk that can pile up too fast and become overwhelming
exercising with a friend at a regular appointed time so you don't have to think about whether or not to do it

In our household we have also agreed that it's fine for me to ask if I need assistance - and fine for my husband to decline if he's too busy. This keeps these sorts of interactions "neutral" - rather than creating situations in which I "think" he should be able to anticipate my needs (which he might not) and I get mad or his thinking I'm imposing on him by asking him to do stuff when he's busy with something else.

Once you can talk with your spouse about structures as being "good" versus "restrictive" things go much better as the two of you figure out what can work for you both.

Ari Tuckman's book "More Attention, Less Deficit" has a bunch of these "external structure" type ideas, if you're looking for more.

It kind of works like

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Thu, 07/08/2010 - 16:32

It kind of works like this:

I take the family over to my mother in law’s house for dinner. I spend most of that time keeping the kids behaved, dealing with a less than nice mother in law, coaxing hubby into helping his mother with things around the house she needs a man to do etc etc I may or may not pick up on hints she drops about how she would like to come over to our place for dinner sometime.

At some point, lets say on the drive home when I can semi relax and think about the day and process all that happened, it occurs to me that I ought to have her over to our place for dinner sometime. Them something distracts me, maybe the kid arguing in the backseat, maybe hubby asking which exit to take home, whatever. The thought goes away, completely away.

A day or two later I might be reminded that I wanted to have her over for dinner. If I don’t get distracted or loose the thought in time, I might be able to write it down on my to do list.

If while sitting down to look over my to do list that day I will start thinking of everything I’d need to do in order to have her over for dinner. Clean up the house, buy special groceries, cook a special meal, plan schedules so everyone has time, send hubby out to pick her up, make sure the kids are dressed nice and well behaved, put the dog outside (she hates the dog) etc etc etc

If I don’t get distracted, or overwhelmed during this process, I might be able to put a note in my day timer to call her and ask if a Sunday or Saturday will work best for her.

A little while later I might see that reminder and suddenly recall that next Friday is not a pay day, so it should be put off for the weekend after that as she likes fancy food, and there’s the cost of gas getting her, and we can’t afford to have her over right now.

If I am not distracted or overwhelmed or anxiety ridden while doing this, I might make a note to phone her and ask if the weekend after this one will work.

Since like may ADDers I hate the phone with a passion, I will put off calling her as long as I can. I may even tell hubby to call her and then my brain will write that off, at least until a day or two later when I suddenly remember to ask him if he has called he. Chances are he hasn’t.

I might even watch a cooking show on TV and think that meal would be nice for her and then remember to ask hubby if he will call her or if I should?

Maybe then, finally, a probably a week after we had her over for dinner, I bite the bullet and make the loathsome phone call. Did I mention I hate phones?

But of course before I can explain my reason for calling I am being bitched out for having not phoned for a week and having not invited her over for dinner. Any attempts to explain that I had intended to call her and invite her, that I saw a yummy recipe she might like, that I couldn’t have her over until after pay day will be brushed aside as lame excuses.

After receiving a lecture from her about how much I suck, I will tell her hubby will pick her up on Sunday for dinner and spend the rest of the week dreading her arrival.

Bascially you can have every intention to do something but making it happen is an endless struggle.

Another brilliant explanation...

Submitted by Sueann on Thu, 07/08/2010 - 18:11

of how the ADD mind works. Thank you for that. It really helps me to know what he's dealing with. (BTW, I agree with those who say you should write a book.)

When you find a free moment, could you explain why you guys hate the phone so much? My husband lost a good job over that. He can sell ice to Eskimos in person, but couldn't do a job on the phone. I'm just the opposite. I'm not attractive and have a visible deformity, so I love the phone. I don't want people to see me. I've had a long and fairly successful career in call centers.

So what is there about the phone that bothers ADDers so much? My husband can't explain it. You are so self-aware and articulate that I feel you might offer some insight into something that has puzzled me as long as I've known him. (no pressure, I think your life is hard enough. Just if you think you can)

I hate the phone

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Thu, 07/08/2010 - 20:01

I hate the phone because

1) It stimulates only one sense.

2) It is too easy to be distracted on the phone (see above)

3) It is hard to focus on a phone conversation.

4) There are no other forms of communication, such as tone of voice and body language.

5) I can’t filter properly so any other noise competes with the voice on the other lines.

6) Phones are uncomfortable against my ear.

7) People talk either too fast or too slow.

8) I have to think on my feet with responses.

9) I struggle to understand infliction and tone of voice and thus there are many misunderstandings.

10) I struggle to properly use infliction and tone of voice and thus there are many misunderstandings.

11) It’s boring and tedious.

12) I cannot pause to collect my thoughts as long silences are not polite.

13) People don’t pause so I can collect my thoughts.

14) Writing or reading notes while talking on the phone is near impossible.

15) I can not focus on something else at the same time as a phone conversation, so anything else going on or trying to write a note causes me to loose track of the conversation.

16) I talk too fast or too slow.

17) Not being able to take notes during conversations means much information is lost that I could keep in an email.

18) Phone conversations last too long.

19) My auditory recall is poor. If other senses are also involved in an event I can remember it better than if only one was engaged.

Thanks

Submitted by Sueann on Thu, 07/08/2010 - 22:26

That's very clear. Since I don't have ADD, most of those don't apply to me and that's why I was able to earn a living doing something you hate. (I could cross-stitch and take notes while talking on the phone.) I wish my husband could have explained it so well.

You are an excellent writer. A lot of the posters on here (especially the ADD ones) misspell, make grammatical mistakes or just aren't clear. You make everything so clear. I really appreciate your input. I know you are busy and I really appreciate you taking the time to write that. I could read 50 books and not learn so much.

Thank you all for the kind compliments

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Thu, 07/08/2010 - 22:50

You can count yourself lucky ;-) that I am on maternity leave and have to take it easy on account of the kiddo I’m gestating. I have more time to be in the computer right now. (I also have a bachelor’s degree in English Literature) If I had much more time on my hands I’d start a blog … and then probably abandon it once it got old and dull!

Thanks to Mis Behaven

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Sun, 07/11/2010 - 16:33

Thanks for this post and others that you've put up that take people step by step through what goes through your head. Really helpful for non-ADHD folks to hear because it's so hard to imagine if not laid out for them. Wish I had had a few to put into my book back when I was writing it (in the section on building empathy for your spouse)...but perhaps that's reason enough to start thinking about writing more books?! Anyway, thanks for your contributions.

Oh well you're welcome! PS

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Sun, 07/11/2010 - 19:30

Oh well you're welcome! Please feel free to use anything I write here in future publications. I'm afraid I'd never finish a book of my own and I couldn't attach my own name to it as coming out publicly as an ADDer would ruin any chances of re-starting my career someday.

PS I like the new design of the Website .. Mambo or Joomla?

I've thought about your post

Submitted by heartswap on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 00:53

I've thought about your post for a long time. Being ADHD myself (albiet a female), things like this take a long time for me to understand. And I still don't quite get it.

People without ADHD make absolutely no sense to me. I feel like this should be made very clear. Which is why I'm here, to figure out how nonADHD people work in relation to ADHD people (or rather, me).

But I can relate to your husband a lot.

I don't mind chores. I honestly don't. Expectations, however, kill me. I will fail. Why bother? I'll lose track of time, get distracted and forget I didn't finish, I'll forget what day it is and not get the trash out, etc. The main point is, I will fail. So why do it at all? The end result, regardless of effort, is the same. (And nagging? Start to nag me, and there's a 90% chance I will NOT do something JUST because I'm annoyed.)

But here's the kicker: I really don't do things for myself. I actually don't know how to self motivate.

So what that means is I love to help people. Want me to empty the dishwasher? Okay I'm not doing anything, sure thing! I need to empty the dishwasher because the dishwasher needs emptied? Nah, it can wait. When I lived on my own, dishes got washed when they bothered me or when there weren't any clean (I wouldn't buy paper plates so I'd DO my dishes). Plus, when I'm "helping" someone, I get rewarded. Almost without fail, when my roommate, family member, whoever asks me to do something, I'll get praised for it after. This isn't so true when I'm "responsible" for a task. The praise is what I'm after. And it's completely true, just like you said, if I'm "helping" someone, I will do more than they do. At work the other day, I was working with someone, helping to clean up tables. She was sweeping and I was moving the tables so she could sweep then moving them back, arranging chairs, adjusting the details like silverware. She was just sweeping. Even when she went off to check on something, without being asked, I took over the sweeping in addition to everything else I'd been doing. But it wasn't my responsibility, I was helping. I got thanked, and she told me how much she appreciates the hard work I put in and that I'm always there for her. Praise is worth more than gold to me. It's attention and stimulation.

In addition, the only time frame I recognize is NOW. So if you get me when I'm not busy and ask me to do something. Chances are I'll do it NOW and it will be done. I can make an agreement with you to sweep every week or take the trash out on Thursdays but that involves planning a head - a task I completely fail at. I CAN set reminders but if the timing is wrong, I will more than likely blow it off.

So that's the way I work.

And I understand the resentment in theory. (It never occurs to me that I shouldn't have to ask? A lot of things don't occur to me. I read someone saying "brain blind" and you are SO correct. I come off pretty naive from how much I miss things.) But from my situation, I can't really say there's any win-win situation. For me, you can assign me responsibilities, let me pick them, give me less than you have, any set of compromises. I will finish them late, forget to finish them, and you will have to nag me. By nagging me, I will resent you. Or you can be a delegator and instruct me play by play, and resent me. Or as another suggested, negate the issue entirely and hire outside help. Or perhaps, a technique I use at work could be helpful. If you could work out something like when he gets home from work he can ask you what needs done that day. (I would imagine he doesn't always realize what needs done. I don't normally until it's an obstacle, like with the dishes when there were no clean dishes, I realized I needed to wash them).

What I really fail to understand is why delegating upsets you so. As I've said, it doesn't occur to me that I shouldn't have to ask people things. I often find myself in leadership positions where I'm delegating and supervising. And in that position, I've never found it overly stressful to do that, and I do pitch in myself. Is it stressful for you? Is there still a lack of follow through when he's "helping" you?

Delegating

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 17:12

I'm reading some interesting posts in this thread from folks with ADHD about what they can't do and it surprises me a bit. The reason a non-ADHD partner doesn't want to be the person always delegating is that this means he or she must retain responsibility for the tasks. When delegating to someone with undertreated ADHD, it also often means you have to stay on alert in order to pick up if it doesn't actually get done. This is a bad feeling. Furthermore, it's unromantic.

When I hear an ADHD person say "I work this way" (and no other) it makes me wonder how far the relationship would go if the non-ADHD partner also said "I work this way" (and no other). It has a "take it or leave it" air about it. In my mind, ADHD isn't about what you can't do, but rather about how you need to do it because of the way your brain works. In a successful marriage that also means taking responsibility for doing it, not handing it off to someone else to remind you or "delegate" it to you.

If you're not good at doing something on time, for example, figure out how to bring whatever it is back into the "now" at the right time so that it gets done on time (if it's important, that is. If the "something" isn't important, then don't worry about it). This is simply showing respect for your partner. If you don't do dishes until you are reminded and are the person in charge of the dishes, figure out how to get yourself reminded at an appropriate time. Could be a cell phone beep. Could be developing a habit of doing them right after they are used. Could be a number of different approaches.

Please don't use your ADHD as an excuse and say things like "I don't know how to self-motivate." I just don't believe it. Do you mean you have never, ever in your life been motivated to do anything? I doubt it. Rather, it's more likely you have trouble getting yourself organized enough to do things that aren't of interest to you. That takes some discipline, I know, but discipline is not out of reach of people with ADHD, just hard. The specific solutions about how to get yourself organized around doing things (or motivation, as you call it) depend upon what your specific challenges are. If it's creating an action plan, or hierarchy in your brain to get started, then that's one thing. If it's keeping yourself from being distracted from the task at hand, that's something else.

I do agree with you that nagging isn't a way to motivate anyone, including a person with ADHD, and should be avoided at all costs.

But I urge you to rethink whether or not asking someone to tell you what to do all the time is a healthy way to be in a relationship. It breeds just as much resentment as nagging does (in the other direction) and gives the impression that you aren't interested in organizing yourself. ADHD manage to learn to organize themselves well enough (generally speaking) once they decide it's important enough to do so - for example when a fed up spouse threatens to leave. Why wait that long?

The Whiteboard

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 17:28

Aside from the couple of chores that belong to one or the other, hubby and I have a white board up in the kitchen where things around the house get listed. If I see the bathroom needs cleaning but don't have the time right now, or don't want to get distracted by the bathroom right now as I'm doing something else, I just write it down on the white board.

I do most of delegating tasks in the house and I still have to direct hubby to the white board from time to time. I do more around the house than hubby, but I am a stay at home mom after all. I write on it more often than he does. But once pointed to the white board he does (usually) get to work (eventually). The boys are getting good at checking the white board. The oldest boy is finally figuring out the more things he does on the white board the more money he gets for his allowance.

I have been thinking of writing the things that are most vital in red and everything else in blue to help hubby and the boys know what needs to be done soonest.

I don't mind ruling the roost at home, I am queen of the house and it works for us. I do think that maybe nonADD women like traditional gender roles more and don't want to "wear the pants"???

I don't think it's got to do with gender roles

Submitted by Sueann on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 20:01

Your way seems to assume that the woman is in charge of things around the house. I don't think that because I am a woman that means I am responsible to see that the bathroom is clean, the dishes washed, the onion skins from the onion he peeled thrown away. It is our house, both of us are responsible to do those things.

I am many things-dean's list student, employee, eBay entrepreneur, hopefully soon a paralegal making more than my husband. So why reduce me to the status of domestic servant while my husband plays card games on the internet and only does things around the house if I ask him? I am glad it works for you and you don't feel degraded by only being thought of as wife and mom, but I don't want the role. I want us to have equal responsibility for the house

I hope you didn't mean to

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 00:45

I hope you didn't mean to insult me. There is nothing degrading or demeaning about being a stay at home mom thank you very much! Also, I have a bachelor's degree in English Literature and had a successful career of my own as a researcher (the not knowing if I was due to work that day was while I worked retail in my early twenties and not treated for ADD) before I chose to be a mom. And I am NOT thought of as ONLY a wife and mom, and even if I was what's wrong with that??? Really, the nerve! GRRRRRRRRR! I am so angry and insulted right now, how dare you??!

Miss Behaven I think you are reading a different post than me?

Submitted by sapphyre on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 00:54

There was nothing in her post to offend apart from the word "only" which perhaps was not a good choice. She certainly didn't say anything about it being degrading or demeaning. I think maybe Sueann accidentally hit on a sore point for you. Has someone else been picking on you and saying there's not much to your life, you are only a wife and mom? As Eleanor Roosevelt says, "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission."

Of course being a Stay at Home Mum and household manager is a wonderful choice. Sueann is just saying, they are both adults with no children and they both work, and she feel upset that he doesn't do his share.

How I read this post

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 14:31

I am many things -dean's list student, employee, eBay entrepreneur, hopefully soon a paralegal making more than my husband. So why reduce me to the status of domestic servant while my husband plays card games on the internet and only does things around the house if I ask him? I am glad it works for you and you don't feel degraded by only being thought of as wife and mom, but I don't want the role. I want us to have equal responsibility for the house

I guess I am not "many things" but I am a domestic servant. Taking on the degrading role of nothing more than a wife and mom is fine for me but not good enough for her. pffft

Miss Behavin', I didn't mean to insult you

Submitted by Sueann on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 18:20

I did not mean to insult you. I can tell you are highly intelligent and educated (You've mentioned your degree in English Literature before.) I have been one of those who encouraged you to write a book because you explain ADD to those of us who don't have it in an understandable way. (Thanks again for your post on why you hate the phone. It has gone a long way towards helping my forgive my husband for the damage his inability to do a phone job caused me.)

Certainly, I think being a wife and mom is a valid choice if you choose it. I did it for a long time because my (first non-ADD) husband demanded it of me (because he hated daycare as a kid, I couldn't put his children in daycare so I could work.) He degraded me, beat me, monitored my food intake (I couldn't buy certain foods that he didn't like because they were too expensive for unimportant me, etc.). I found I couldn't do anything useful with my university degree and he would not sign the forms for me to get financial aid for graduate school. (You're a generation younger than I am and in those days, spouses had to give permission for student loans.) I am not sure how that sort of relationship works when there is good will on both sides, no compulsion and a feeling that the money is "ours" even if only one person earns it. I didn't see it in my own marriage or that of my parents.

My problem is different. My ADD husband thinks he's less able to do household things than I am, although I have terrible pain when I walk and am supposed to keep the injured leg elevated as much as possible and he's a perfect physical specimen. I do find it degrading that in addition to a full-time job and school, I am supposed to be responsible for everything in the house. I plan the meals, do the shopping, load the dishwasher, struggle with the laundry and cleaning, etc. He will do some of these jobs (halfheartedly) if I ask. My point is that he lives here too and it is his responsibility as much as mine. I should not have to ask him. He should be able to look at a dirty dish and know that it goes in the dishwasher. This household is more important than playing cards on the computer.

He paid lip service to gender equality when we were dating. I didn't expect to find myself cast in the role of "housewife" in addition to a full-time job. I do feel it's degrading to have to come home from a full day's work and class until 9 pm and be expected to do the dishes while he plays. That is all I was saying. I haven't your facility of expression and I certainly didn't mean to offend you or hurt your feelings. Yours is one of the most interesting and valuable voices on this forum.

I'm sorry I got so upset.

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:27

I'm sorry I got so upset. It's not easy to go through life being told and treated as though you are less than on a regular basis. It tends to get the back up (and it stays up)

I run into nonADHD people

Submitted by heartswap on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 01:13

I run into nonADHD people telling me this is how I work. No compromise. Quite frequently. I also very much see little accommodation made. Okay that's how you work. I still expect you to meet some unrealistic (for you) goal. These people are also, not in my life. Often reading nonADHD posts frustrates me. It appears like my side/the ADHD side is not accounted for. Telling me that I've failed or I'm frustrating you doesn't make me magically capable. And sometimes? Goals have to be re-evaluated. I'm currently going for my bachelor's degree. I have an IQ in the top 2% of the population. My GPA was 2.3. It's not from a lack of intelligence. It's from the difficulty achieving that 4.0 everyone assumes because of my intelligence level, that I should have. When it's so hard to finish a paper? My goal can't be an A. I will only frustrate and disappoint myself. My goal is to finish the paper as best I can. Sometimes I can reach that A. Sometimes? I can spend days researching and writing, and all that effort only means a C. I miss a lot of things, and I frequently misinterpret directions. So I accept that I will not always succeed, and that C is still passing. I did my best. And that's how I approach everything that is difficult for me. It's the same in household chores. When I lived independently, sometimes the dishes didn't get done. I didn't have time, didn't have the energy, whatever. Or I'd do some of it. And for then? It had to be okay.

I don't have the solution to this problem. But from what I can see, all that's being pointed out is the problem. Not the contributing factors. I have a disability. You don't expect someone in a wheelchair to use the stairs. What I ask for is slack. Delegate to me. I don't know what day it is. Or leave me responsible for it and don't complain about how I do it (doing chores home alone is the hardest for me. Which is one reason why "helping you" is much preferred. You're there. It's stimulation in an unstimulating situation). I am more than willing to take complete responsibility for tasks or entire rooms. But when we get back to nagging, you're taking responsibility for it. Checking on the follow through. Reminding. How is that so different from delegating to me? Other than the fact that when you delegate, you're being nice, and when you nag, you're frustrated and/or upset? I don't even think delegating is entirely necessary but expecting me to just remember is mostly ridiculous. To me, it's the same concept as when people KNOW how frequently I lose EVERYTHING and then tell me to use a planner. How does that make sense? I'd settle for a chart I could readily see and put stickers on, yes like a child. It's a reward, and that's what I'm asking for.

I understand that I'm difficult to live with, to have any sort of relationship with. I feel like agreeing to be in a relationship with me, friendship, marriage, it doesn't matter, you're accepting that I'm going to be difficult. It's a disorder, not a personality trait. Not just a label. It is something very real. I can show you pictures of where my brain fails to function. I'm asking to be considered, for that to be considered. I'm asking for slack. I'm assuming, that when, like when I was engaged, we agree that we might spend our lives together, and I have made my ADD very clear, that you understand that you're taking this on. Being in a relationship with someone who had ADHD will never be the same as being in a relationship with someone without ADHD. You will not have that same type of equality. I'm not saying that your life has to be completely centered around me and my needs, I'm asking that the expectations not be so high. Before you get angry that I left something out, ask me why. Did I forget? Was I going to come back? Before you get angry that something isn't done, ask me to do it. And you can laugh and let it go, or let it build and become resent. I respect that you want chores done. I'll do them. Wait for me to do them, or remind me. Respect that I'm not the same as you. And I'm fairly sure I explained why reminders on my phone don't work. If not: when I'm in the midsts of something, I have to finish it. Or it won't get done. When that alarm goes off and I'm in the middle of something, whatever's at hand will probably seem like something that needs done, now. Chores can wait. And then it's too late, I've missed my deadline.

My ADHD as an excuse? It's not. I do not know how to self-motivate and it was even the theme of my last therapy session. Completely and totally for myself? I can't say never, but nothing I can recall. As an example: I never make my bed. It's not enough for me to just make my bed. Just for myself. Just because it should be done. Last time I made my bed, I went to go chase down my roommate so she'd be impressed. I didn't do it just because it needed done. I wanted attention/stimulation. I receive no attention for doing assigned tasks. With school, I often have to 'teach' even inanimate objects to learn course material. Again, it's not for myself, it's to teach. Often, I tell myself I need to do this, it needs done. I need to do laundry. I really do. It's been like... a good two weeks. I don't have a damned good reason to do it other than it needs done. I could use clean clothes. I've tried to start the task several times. I sorted my clothes, got them in the basket, even got the basket into the laundry room at some point, planned to do it after x. I still haven't done laundry.

The motivation when a spouse threatens to leave is the same as the motivation gained from procrastination. It's a rush, it's very stimulating. I'm sure we're very familiar with how capable someone with ADHD becomes when they're stimulated. Watch how fast it disappears when the stimulation's gone.

But to push the point that goals SHOULD most definitely be re-evaluated when someone has ADHD - a few months ago, I was re-tested for ADHD and in the evaluation, it was explained that it is highly unlikely I would succeed in a position where I would be responsible for tasks and would do best in a position where I would be subordinate, with tasks delegated to me and a supervisor (who would ultimately be responsible for my tasks).

"Minority report" OR "The saga of lefties and ADDers"

Submitted by brighthorse on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 16:11

"When I hear an ADHD person say "I work this way" (and no other) it makes me wonder how far the relationship would go if the non-ADHD partner also said "I work this way" (and no other). It has a "take it or leave it" air about it"

I suspect that the world/our society is geared such that the non-ADD partner doesn't have to explicitly say "I work this way" (and no other). Because the non-ADD way is the "standard" way. It's an unwritten rule that "people work this way".

Kinda like the fact that devices are designed keeping right-handed people in mind. I've seen lefties struggle with so many simple appliances including motorcycles, guitars (the person in question was trying to play a standard "right handed" guitar) etc etc.

Ah! But lefties have to adjust...coz the world is right handed. And ADDers have to adjust...coz the world is NT. Majority rules. And I'm not being caustic or sarcastic here. I do think ADDers have to adjust. There is no other way.

I just hope you realize that ADDers are probably doing much more adjusting than non-ADDers coz the world and our structures favour the non-ADDer.

Do you remember to go to work?

Submitted by Sueann on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 11:30

I'm not ADD but have my own struggles with housework, etc. mostly caused by physical disabilities on my part, and also by the fact that my first (non-ADD) husband saw me as the "doer of housework" rather than a person, so I grew to hate it with a passion.

Why don't I like to have to delegate? I have to be there. I can't be at class or work; if I'm not home, it won't get done. If I'm not home, he will sit and play cards on the computer while the work goes undone. I don't want our lives together to be about the housework. I want it out of the way so we can deal with important stuff or fun stuff. When I am home, I just want to enjoy our home and my husband, not standing over him, going "honey, you promised to unload the dishwasher," and then I feel obligated to help him because I really want to get to do something else when I come home. I've got a lot of balls in the air, and it feels unfair to me that it's my job to make sure the dishwasher is unloaded, and he can help me but it's my problem.

I'm not asking because I'm a smart-ass. I really don't understand why you can't remember stuff until it happens. My husband missed his chance to sing with the choir this morning because he forgot to either wash a white shirt or ask me to wash one. But if you can remember what days to go to work, why can't you remember what days the trash is picked up? If you eat off clean plates, why can't you remember to clean them?

Honestly, I'm trying to understand something that baffles me.

There, now you can SEE ADD.

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 16:29

Actually I have forgotten which days to go to work. *blush* When I worked at job where the shifts were always different I would often show up at the wrong time on the wrong day, or think I had a day off when I didn't. Even when I had them written down I'd do this.

I often get confused if today is Wednesday or Thursday. The 11th or the 14th.

There's really no way to explain the inability to think of something unless it is right in front of you other than to say "This is how my brain (doesn't) work" It just is. On neurological imaging that part of the ADD brain just doesn't light up and fire the way it does for a nonADD person. Lights are not on, even if someone is home. I am lost in the dark.

http://newideas.net/images/adhd_parietal_lobes_vance.jpg

http://www.topnews.in/files/ADHD-Brain.jpg

http://samzodiac2.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/brookhaven_brain_scan_adhd...

http://www.neurolearning.com/images/stroopadhd.jpg

Have a look at those linked images ... There, now you can SEE ADD.

For me, work is a very big

Submitted by heartswap on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 00:18

For me, work is a very big deal. I enjoy my job a great deal so more often than not, I look forward to going. So it's easy for me to put in effort toward it. My job also pays for a majority of the household activities, so my roommate is pretty peticular about me getting to work.

But the main reason I've never forgotten to go to work? Alarms on my phone. Reason I don't lose my phone? I can call it. It stays on loud for this specific reason. There have been days I've shown up late to work because I put off getting ready and lost track of time. And there are days when I've arrived at work unprepared because I forgot I had to work until that alarm when off. Plenty of times I've had to call off an engagement last minute because I didn't think I had to work. I also plan a nearly obnoxious amount of prep time for work. To get ready for work takes me roughly 10-20 minutes. I generally plan for an hour. It takes me around 20 minutes to get to work, I plan for 30.

I read your comment to my ADD husband

Submitted by Aspen on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 12:42

and he laughed because your thinking is so much like his. The fact of the matter is when one person has all the responsibility it changes the balance of the relationship. It is much more parent/child or boss/subordinate than a partnership. Near the beginning of our dealing with the diagnosis (about 2.5 years ago) we were developing into that kind of relationship, and I have to say that our romantic/intimate life was really suffering from it. Healthy marital relationships do not exist with that type of inequity. No one feels loving and romantic to someone who is their boss, and no one is dying to be intimate with a dependant.

We set up our life the way that WE want it, so why should only ONE of us be responsible for making the household work? Hubby and I had a fairly long conversation about this today since this thread issue brought it up. I can see why he'd want it his way and he can see why I'd want it my way, but so far neither of us has been able to really find a way to make it work for both of us.

At some point in a marriage (and I am not sure if you are married) it gets pretty tiring and frustrating to feel like your life has to be set up entirely for the benefit of the ADD partner. What about the fact that I don't want to be responsible entirely for the house either? Why does his desire to not have something so often outweigh my desire to have it?

We are going to try a variation of Melissa's suggestion that we each keep certain jobs and the rest is for him to help with. I am going to try to not be resentful because my work situation is actually different now and it is less overwhelming to me to take on more of the housework, and he is going to try to really stay on top of the few things that are his responsibility so that they can be entirely off my radar. We'll see how it works.

I appreciate your thoughts, & have a couple questions for you regarding what sounds to me like a fatalistic attitude from the beginning. You say :

"I'll lose track of time, get distracted and forget I didn't finish, I'll forget what day it is and not get the trash out, etc. The main point is, I will fail. So why do it at all? The end result, regardless of effort, is the same. (And nagging? Start to nag me, and there's a 90% chance I will NOT do something JUST because I'm annoyed.)"

It is this kind of statement from ADD partners that are so infuriating to nonADD mates. We understand this is your default position if you haven't put in the time and effort to make things different, and we understand that no one is going to succeed 100% at keeping their commitments. But you sound like you just opt out from the get go. Asif you are saying "I can't do that so don't expect me to" How about if you expect you to? What is wrong with saying to yourself "I have ADD and I do things different and set things up in a way that works for me, but I am entirely capable of keeping my word and following through on commitments that I have agreed to??" That is what people without ADD would love to see more of from the ADD people in their lives!

And I truly feel like a person who isn't regularly following though on what they have agreed to has lost any right to quibble over nagging. If you are taking on responsibilities and then not completing them so that someone else has to take time from their multitude of responsibilities to remind you, you should be grateful they took the time. Yes we should all do a better job at communicating with each other and we should endeavor to treat each other with dignity. Absolutely entirely yes! But having a person fail to meet their agreements over and over so that you have to remind them over and over is enough of a stress without also being accused of "nagging", especially if you only feel you are "reminding". I am trying not to nag, but my honest best solution for anyone who doesn't want to be nagged, is to just do what you say you will do. Problem solved on both sides.

keeping your word

Submitted by brendab on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 14:26

"I have ADD and I do things different and set things up in a way that works for me, but I am entirely capable of keeping my word and following through on commitments that I have agreed to??" That is what people without ADD would love to see more of from the ADD people in their lives!

Aspen has written what nonADDers want. Keep your word and don't promise something without seeing it as a vow to yourself and to the nonadder. Somebody on here wrote that in their marriage all promises were weighed as heavily as the marriage vow. this crosses my mind frequently and I appreciate the fact you shared. nonadders rely on promises and expect them to be honored. Those promises define our expectations and we feel valued that the person has made a promise to us. It is especially affirming when the promise is kept.

I wrote an email recently to my exBF who is ADD and apologized for my outburst over another broken promise. I then made a list of other things I could have done instead (before, during and after the promise). I told him that an outburst was not necessary and it was damaging to our friendship. So I took ownership of my faults.

Then I went on to explain that in my world a promise is sacred, an issue of integrity. I told him that if I make a promise and find it difficult to keep the promise, I allow myself to go to the person and ask for a change in terms. If they agree, then I can honor the new promise and I have minimized damage to my integrity and the relationship. If they refuse to accept a change in conditions, then I must honor my commitment no matter how difficult to me. Since I want to be known as a person of integrity and a promise keeper then I have to consistently keep my promises. Actions, not intentions, are what define me as a promise keeper.

I do believe that nonadders like me tend to focus on our strengths like follow through, but fail to notice our weaknesses. I get angry when I feel like a need isn't getting met. Instead of self examining what need is not getting met and what I can do about it, I get verbal and blame the other person for not keeping their promise. In some ways I am no better than the promise breaker because I set myself up to expect something that the past behavior has told me is likely to fail. Why do I expect the adder to keep a promise when I know it is a weakness for him? My weakness is denial that he will repeat promise breaking. Then I am also weak because I get angry when it does happen. My exBF never lashed out at me verbally (he may break a promise, but he does not react with a nasty attitude at something I say or do) He does not have the weakness of a quick judgment and verbal attack. My only hope is to change myself.

Here are a few things I wish I had done instead of being verbal:

1. I knew he had broken other promises so I should have told him to buy my plane ticket and if he kept his promise to me, I would pay him when I got there. If he didn't keep his promise then it would be his $300 loss not mine.

2. I could have told him "I am not going because I do not believe you will keep your promise to meet me there."

3. When he did cancel his plan, I could have told him to create another plan for us at a later date and reimburse me for my ticket (which he offered to do).

4. Before responding to his broken promise, I could have gotten off the phone and worked through my emotions and called back later explaining how incredibly disappointed I was because we had not seen each other for 2 months. I'd explain how happy I had been for 2 weeks knowing I'd get to see him again and now I am so disappointed. I could have just told him that this broken promise to me for some other distraction made me think I was not valued, that he did not have the same desire to see me again and that hurt my feelings.

Instead I got verbal, told him that I could not afford to lose the money, told him that we apparently weren't an item anymore and I didn't want to pretend otherwise. His promise breaking was a terrible thing, but so was my reaction. My reaction was immature and only served to damage our relationship.

Just fyi, 6 months later he calls and APOLOGIZES for his broken promise. And this is a good thing as long as he changes, but it will mean nothing if he does it again. This communication between us has made me realize how much I need to change, even if he never does. I will be a better, more mature person if I can learn how to protect myself with boundaries, focus on my own weaknesses, and increase my integrity by changing the way I make plans with him.

Brenda

I didn't intend to be this long winded.

Submitted by heartswap on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 00:05

I completely understand why my fatalistic view point is frustrating and trust me, it's frustrating to me too. The reason I have this view point is because it's true. I've had these problems with these results since I've had chores (so probably like age 11?). It even happened to me when I lived alone and I was responsible to myself. The difference when I lived alone (compared to now where I live with a few others) is that if I didn't do it, it didn't get done. So it got done more regularly but by no means did it meet the expectations I generally get from others.

But by this statement, I didn't mean that I won't try at all. By all means no. It's just the way it feels to me and it can be disheartening. Especially when I was in high school. I'd get most of my chores done or dishes always come to mind because that's what most of the fights my mother and I had were about. The dishwasher would be empty or half filled and open so it'd be obvious I got distracted and mom would come home and we'd get in another screaming match. It almost seemed like if I DIDN'T do it at all, I'd get in LESS trouble than if I forgot to finish. Sometimes I'd give up. Sometimes I made it a game to prove her wrong so she'd be pleased when I got home. When I lived on my own, I tried to put it in my planner with my to-do lists. However, to-do lists, planners, and I have a very tricky relationship. They work in short stints because I'll lose track of them or forget to fill them out (usually happens when I get busy with work and/or school). In that situation, where I was purely responsible, I'd get to that part of my to-do list and a lot of times, I'd just be too tired to try to do something boring, or things would come up, I'd get invited out, whatever and blow it off.

In general, I feel like this is an important point: I don't (and I doubt many people with ADHD do) blow off things just to frustrate you. I do it to myself too. And it frustrates me too.

Over all, I tend to view things in a sort of I-Need-To-Be-Able-To-Live-Entirely-Alone way. Chores are difficult. But I have to be independent, so I have to learn how to get them done. Which I have done and I can. The problem I see, is meeting the expectations of others. And you're completely right. No matter the ADHD diagnosis, if we have the disorder or not, we, people in general, have to be able to follow through on our commitments. You'll have to forgive me here if I'm unclear, I'm struggling to explain what I want to say. And if I am unclear, please let me know and I'll try to clarify. It's important to remember, this is a disability at times. It varies in people how severe it is. My ADHD is pretty severe, not to the point I can't work or I'd qualify for disability payments but I do qualify for Vocational Rehabilitation. I should also note I'm only speaking from my perspective and my experience, I can't say to how severely your husband is affected by this. It breaks my heart when I break a promise, or fail to follow through on a commitment. It's not that I don't care. And if I truly opted out before even trying, I wouldn't make the commitment in the first place. When I give my word, I give my word and the implied promise to the very best of my abilities, I will follow through on this. However, I am still guilty of the "I have a disability and I can't do this." I feel like the difference in that and that the goal should be that as long as the end goal is still possible, then it should still be achieved. Personally, when I do fall into the "I can't do this, don't expect me to" I'm actually saying that the method doesn't work for me. Living at home, I begged and begged my mom to give me the entire day to finish my chores instead of from the end of school to when she got home. I thought that this way, if I had forgotten, she'd remind me when she got home and I could finish it right away. I don't know if this would have worked as she never gave me that.

As far as nagging goes... Well, it's demeaning, in my eyes at least. Nagging led to that fatalistic view I have. With the rate of failure I tend to have compared with the amount of effort I feel I put in, I'm pretty hard on myself. In my experience with the ADHD people I know, and myself, we're pretty hard on ourselves. So when someone else comes and tells you how badly you did, how much you forgot and how stressful it is for them, it just worsens it tenfold. Because these people mean so much to us and we want with all our hearts to see them happy. I know especially with my mother (my worst conflicts were with her which is why I reference her so much, currently my roommate and I have a sort of well as you described parent/child relationship, I decide what needs done, and she reminds me to do things and/or is in charge of keeping track of the lists I make. She's also incredibly laid back, so when I screw up, she doesn't get upset.) I always saw her as so stressed, and I wanted to make her happy because I love her but it always felt like I couldn't. I'd do everything I thought needed done and put so much time and effort into it to make sure it was right and thorough but it seemed like it was never enough. I'd forget one of my responsibilities or I did something the wrong way. So there'd be the screaming, and even when it wasn't that, there was the nagging. She'd be upset I forgot, and I'd be upset too because I let her down in addition to the fact I was upset that I forgot again. Now, when it gets to nagging, I can't help giving up. I'm frustrated, you're frustrated, the metaphorical light is shaded and I feel too hopeless to try. I understand it's frustrating for a task to not get done. What I'm trying to make so very clear, and I do think this is overlooked so much, is that to you, my failure to complete a task is frustrating, to me? It means I'm less of a person, or a worse person because of it. ADHD, to many people, feels like a moral failing. I still at times catch myself asking if there's something wrong with me, intrinsically, that will never let me be a good person. I know it's not, and I am a good person, I just have trouble. Which makes it pretty easy to see why depression is so prevalent as a co-morbid disorder.

The solution seems easy, just do what you say you will. I know. I'm constantly berating myself, "Why can't I just do this?" I'll write a list and some task will stay on there or be in the midsts of doing something and it will become just so frustrating. Even dishes can be frustrating. You go and go, and time is not a concept I understand, so maybe it's been a few minutes but it's felt like hours and I'm still not done. Tasks can become seemingly impossible.

And granted, I'm highlighting the darker sides of this. I have days where I hyperfocus and I'll clean the house at high speed, nonstop for literal hours. I think my record is something like 7 hours. Or with my roommate, whenever there's something difficult for me that I have to do, as long as she's there with me, talking to me, whatever, I can work on it. She's not even actually helping. This did work with my mom very well too. We'd both agree to clean the house, I'd pick out the rooms I'd clean, and we'd set a timer for twenty minutes and we'd both work then when it went off, we'd get twenty minutes to spend time together or goofoff, whatever we wanted.

I'm not married (came close!), to be honest. But these feelings are fairly universal, as with the examples I've given from when I lived at home and occasionally now with my roommate. I was diagnosed when I was 7 (and it is odd to me, with so many people saying they were only diagnosed a few years ago, when I've had this diagnosis nearly my entire life) and I can't really say if my ADHD is treated or not, interestingly enough. It still feels out of control to me and this issue is one of the reasons I started poking around on this site (mostly to see the other side and try to find solutions). It's a frustrating thing, on both sides. It's also very frightening and disheartening. Lately especially with so much more responsibility I haven't learned how to handle, I feel like I'm some sort of overgrown child. It also feels like I might never outgrow that and be dependent on someone like you, someone who cares about me but lacks my disability to keep me on track forever. The idea of being dependent on someone in and of itself is scary. But also that I would be asking that person to take on a huge burden. To be the responsible one, to be patient, to be forgiving. Even if I take on the entirety of the workload, and I gladly would, it doesn't make it equal. And thinking all of this, can make you feel like so much less than a person.

The solution you've decided on sounds like a good one! I might have to see about implementing something similar. And I want to wish you luck with it!

Good points Brendab

Submitted by callmesusan on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 00:39

I am the one who posted about commitments/promises being a vow to the other that must be honored. I hear and relate to every word you say in your post here. I too have been doing a lot of reflection and observing of my reactions and how they contribute to disconnection in our marriage. The thing is, I feel myself becoming tense and girding myself whenever my husband agrees/offers to do something. I don't want my mind to automatically go to thoughts that he probably won't follow through thereby needing to set up the request with some built-in protection for me.

Like you I feel the fear, and it feels like what I imagine PTSD to be. Your boyfriend (ex?) sounds very much like my husband. My husband supports me in everything I do/want to do and he is always kind, until he gets defensive when I react. We are working on a new way to express ourselves to each other, and it is helping. It goes like this:

When you said/did ... When I hear you ... When I see you ...

What I thought was ... What I think about it is....

What I felt about it... What I feel about it is ....

What I need from you is ...

This suggestion came about in counseling when my husband made a commitment to me and didn't keep it. I was hurt and frustrated. Like you suggested, I didn't address it with my husband at the time because I could tell from his state of mind at the time and my state of mind, it would have escalated into an argument. BUT, it ruined my night's sleep while I ruminated on it, wondering how to address it effectively and so that my needs were heard. Anyway, after going over this strategy in counseling, we practiced it with each other. We used positive scenarios for practice. Actually, the positive situations allowed for some great connection! Here's a made up example: "When you said you wanted to go that cool Italian restaurant, I thought bout what a sweetheart you were to think of it. What I felt about it was how special I felt that you remembered how much I liked that place last time we went. What I need from you is to make suggestions about where we eat more often!" You get the idea. We had some fun with it anyway, and hopefully it will help when it all hits the fan!

Brendab, I like what you say here. It's a process. For all of us.

I Still Struggle . . .

Submitted by Hoping4More on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 19:20

with what to say to my wife when commitments aren't honored. My wife continuously wants to make me promises. She *promises* to be home a certain time. She *promises* she'll remember something. She *promises* she'll be done with something by a certain time.

I on the other hand, keep asking her NOT to makes promises. My experience tells me when she does, she is likely to fail, and I am likely to be disappointed, if not downright angry that yet another promise has been broken. Especially when, instead of simply apologizing for breaking the promise, she lists what she seems to consider justifiable reasons why she didn't keep the promise - many of which seem to be out of her control.

Yet, she *insists* on making promises! She seems to feel insulted by my not wanting her to make a promise. She feels bad that I don't trust her to follow through. I respond that I know her *intent* is to keep her promises to me, but that her ADHD often gets in the way of that happening. Maybe she is still having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that *her* ADHD is causing some problems?

So anyway, I have been asking her not to promise, but instead, to think about what each of our options might be if it turns out she won't be able to follow through on whatever it is she tells me she intends to do. Devise a back-up plan, so to speak. One where we each feel honored and respected. And one that doesn't always end with her feeling bad because she failed once again, and me feeling bad (and maybe getting angry) because she broke a promise. I'm trying to offer us both some kind of "out" so that we might do a different dance.

But I can't seem to get her to even consider having such a conversation.

I hear from some here (like Miss B), that perhaps my wife is not yet ready to talk about things like that yet, as she is still dealing with coming to the realization of the kinds of issues we are dealing with due to ADHD, feeling bad about that, etc.

OK. I get that. But what am I supposed to do in the meantime? Just ignore all the times she breaks her promises?

Tell yourself it's not really a promise, it's an intention.

Submitted by sapphyre on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 21:11

It's not a promise to someone who doesn't understand what a promise really means. It's more than an intention, it's also the completion of the action!

I hate to say this, Hoping4More, but if you really want something done, you need to do it yourself. I can't even remember stuff, no ADHD isn't contagious, but sometimes it doesn't effect you and yours much until you have lots of other things to do (e.g. kids, carer role, etc.) and stress.

I have given up relying on my hubby to accomplish anything other than everyday things with lots of cues... like kids needing to get to school on time. And me being picked up from the station, he's really good at that.

Personally, I have stopped making promises most of the time, as life seems to get in the way all the time (not just my mistakes, but also those of my family often throw a spanner in the works). I used to be a promise-keeper, then I started having lots of trouble because it wasn't just me in my life anymore. Now I avoid promises. I always say I'll try or maybe, we'll see.

I know I need pop up reminders, visual cues, etc. and I can still forget things. Fortunately, life has always been an ongoing self-improvement project for me... so it's not too devestating :)

Hope this helps.

Plan B?

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:35

Could you guys replace the word "promise" with "I will try"? Would that help?

In my family we always have a Plan B. Whenever we make plans or make a promise or make a commitment one or the other of us always says "Okay, great. We meet at McDonalds' at 5 o'clock, what's Plan B?"

The assumption is not that Plan A won't happen but just in case, we have a Plan B. We also make sure that everyone knows ADD is not always at fault for needing a Plan B. We might need a Plan B because of bad traffic or something beyond our control.

I appreciate your point of view....

Submitted by Aspen on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 03:50

and I can understand how regularly feeling you cannot do things in the same way as nonADD people can make you feel somehow less of a person. This is absolutely completely untrue!! Which I know you understand also, but feelings aren't always rational.

The things you mention having issues with are SOOO much the same as the ones my husband has issues with. He says he especially hates things like dishes and making the bed because they are things that are going to quickly need doing again soon, in his mind he doesn't want to do things that don't stay DONE. And yet from the moment an area gets organized and cleaned up, he seems to be in a race to mess it up again rather than trying to keep it organized, so some things that COULD stay done don't stay done because he won't keep up with them.

I understand not liking to do the same chores over and over again. That is why no one wants to do them ALL. It is constant work and it can get overwhelming. I have given up arguing with him about the bed-- a person can only hear so much "but we are just going to get in it again tonight" before it isn't worth the bother. I just make the bed myself, and then if he sees me doing it, he rushes to help. That used to drive me BONKERS. He could not for any reason be induced to do it himself (our deal was last person out of bed makes the bed, and he was almost always last out and yet he never made it), yet if I was doing it, he'd rush to help. Now I just try to appreciate that he wants to help me, but he just genuinely doesn't care about the bed. I understand that having our bedroom feel like a nice clean haven doesn't require the same quality of orderliness for him as it does for me, but if he sees me working on it, he will do it because he cares how I feel about it. That is valuable to me. Naturally, I still wish he'd notice the messes he makes on his own and just stop making them in the first place, but it is a process.

I was gone for a girls' weekend just before we got the ADD diagnosis a few years ago, and I came home to the biggest MESS in our house and especially in the kitchen. There sat my husband watching TV with a huge grin on his face and a "WELCOME HOME!" sitting in the middle of a mess. I was so excited to see him too until I saw the house, then I was just immediately overwhelmed that I was so tired and yet he'd left all this crap for me to deal with. I cannot relax in a mess! So I went into the kitchen to start clearing up the 3 days of dishes he had piled up, and in he came with a big, goofy grin to *help* me with the kitchen. I was INFURIATED. I told him that he'd had 3 days to clean up after himself, he knew when I was getting home, he knows how I feel about coming home to a mess; so since he made the choice to ignore it all and leave it for me to take care of he better get himself out of the kitchen and away from me so that I could handle it. He was crushed and I felt completely taken for granted....like he felt he didn't have to clean up after himself because his scullery drudge could just take care of it when she got home. I mean what on earth would a person be THINKING!?!?!

I am sorry to this day for how I handled it, but we did not understand he had ADD, and it just appeared to be the most thoughtless way in the world to behave. And his protests of "I'm sorry. I just didn't think!" certainly didn't go very far in making me feel valued. He hadn't done ANYTHING all weekend but eat and watch movies, so how could he have left such a mess for me?? And his argument, "I didn't leave it for you! I just left it cause I didn't want to do it." This makes sense in his mind, but none to me. There are 2 of us in our household so what one doesn't do the other has to do.

And he also vastly prefers to do chores together. I understand this is more stimulating to him and I try to comply where possible now, but frankly I try to get the unpleasant things like cleaning done quickly and out of the way first thing where he likes to procrastinate it. SOOO it seems to me like he is fine with me getting up and doing my chores, but then if he has to do his later in the evening (because he chose to leave them), he doesn't like that I can be watching TV or reading a book or surfing the net. He wants me to be *cleaning with him* to keep him on task and make it go faster. My response is that I am not his mother and my life isn't entirely about making his responsibilities easier. Of course sometimes I comply and we have a good time getting it out of the way together, but it often doesn't work for me because he's finally getting to it just when I finally have some downtime. I need that downtime too.

Maybe for future romantic relationships, you should try to find a personality similar to your easy going roommate. Just be prepared for the fact that people like your mother and your future mate will take your distraction more personally because they are much more invested in you personally and your behavior will always affect them more seriously. Very few ppl get upset with my husbands ADD symptoms because they mostly don't have to deal with the fallout. He is not severely ADD and in fact no one would know that he is ADD except that he is very upfront about telling people. Yes ppl notice that he is distractable sometimes but they just see it as having an easygoing personality, it is the ppl who have lived with him and realize how much work he can make for someone else at home who get frustrated with him. We have gone in circles for years about him doing thngs like taking off his clothes and just leaving them where he stands, or taking off shoes and leaving them right in the main walkways of the house, or leaving socks ALL OVER THE HOUSE because he takes them off and just tosses them on the floor where he is. He insists he doesn't leave them for me which again there are 2 of us, so who does he think is going to take care of what he doesn't? His responses are 1. He doesn't expect anyone to take care of it since he doesn't even notice it is there, he assumes no one else notices either. Or 2. He'll eventually get to picking them up.

It is this type of behavior that makes a non ADD person think "childlike" since a 2 or 3 year old has to be taught not to just drop their stuff on the floor when they are done with it, but an adult man has still not learned that lesson?? But he is slowly getting it. I am less angry because I now realize that he isn't throwing stuff on the floor because he thinks I should pick it up. He is working on putting it where it goes when he takes it off, rather than on the floor, and I am working on not taking it personally when he forgets.

It is definitely a process! And there is a part we can all play in making it easier for the other one. Your mom should worked harder at helping you develop systems for doing things you don't like to do, but she seems like maybe she wasn't that well informed about ADD. If you have been diagnosed for so long adn still don't feel like your ADD is under control, then you probably still need some professional help........either medication tweaking or just coaching/ learning to apply external structures to organizing yourself. Have you considered using your phone as a planner? My husband keeps most everything in his phone and it seems to work decently for him, though he has the same issue as you at blowing off reminders depending on what he is into at the moment!

My bed is the funniest thing.

Submitted by heartswap on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 09:53

My bed is the funniest thing. I call it my "nest" because my favorite way to sleep is with a bunch of pillows and all wrapped up in blankets. It doesn't even remotely look like a made bed, don't even ask me where the sheet is, I haven't a clue. In addition, because I don't have anyone sharing my bed anymore, my "office" has taken it over. I have like stacks of papers and a basket full of receipts and what not next to my calendar and ADHD books and laptop. Half the time I wake up on or holding my laptop. But I tend to focus best at the end of the bed and if I'm comfy then planning the next day is just so much easier. Haha.

When I was much much younger, probably either in grade school or middle school, it bothered me when my room was clean. I couldn't find things, I tend to forget about things as soon as they're out of sight so I have major issues with drawers. Since then, I've not kept my room "clean". My room is significantly more difficult for me to clean and to keep clean. I'm not really sure why it is harder for me to keep my room clean compared to the rest of the house, I think it may have to do with the storage system I have which is drawers/dressers and I'm looking into getting shelves when I have some extra spare time (luckily roommate is off of work for at least another month to keep me company while I clean!) But on that note, messiness doesn't bother me, I don't even notice it.

Oh, my. Yes. I have four dogs, who live with my mother. So when she goes out of town, I stay at home to take care of the dogs. Usually she's gone 3-4 days, she'll leave like Thursday or Friday after work then come back Sunday around 11 pm. When do I clean up the house? Sunday after I get off work, which is around 9:30. One Sunday mom got home around 10 am. Just BLEW UP at me because it was a disaster, I'm sure you know the feeling. I didn't even think of it until she got upset to which I could only answer, "I didn't expect you home yet." I understand it's not a good reply and she couldn't understand why I just didn't clean as I went. And I have no reason for it, I just don't. Though, you've finally made something make sense to me. My ex and I would go round and round, arguing, whatever. He'd have the idea that because I didn't do something so I expected him to. And that's not... remotely close to the truth. I didn't do it for a plethora of reasons or even excuses but I never saw the responsibility as no longer mine. So if he'd start on a task that was my responsibility, I'd race over to stop him and finish it myself. But he'd respond like you did, wanting me to leave being upset that it wasn't done. So many times I was accused that the neglect of my responsibilities was out of spite. I've never thought of it as "if he didn't do it, I have to."

Absolutely, downtime is very much needed. I find I don't transition well so I tend to need downtime between school or work, whatever I've been doing before something that's just as straining like chores. So I put them off for later in the day. Though I've always heard from people without ADHD that couldn't understand how I could put something off, they always wanted it out of the way immediately so they wouldn't have to worry about it. So I understand not wanting to help when you've finally gotten some downtime. I'm not really the same so much in that it doesn't bother me if someone's watching tv or reading.

You know, the solution I found to just dropping things where I stand was to put something there, like a basket. I always have things in my hands when I come in, my phone, my keys, whatever. Next to my door in my room, I've got what I call a "drop basket" and everything goes in there. It's all in one spot, I don't lose it. I have to sort through it later, but it doesn't really bother me so much, since it's way easier than what I did before, which was just put it down someplace random and lose it. I'm really good about putting dirty clothes in one spot. Usually a pile in the bathroom. I've found this bothers other people. So there's a hamper in the bathroom. I find since it's so close and I can readily see it, it's easier to go "OH YEAH, stuff goes in here!" Shoes are one thing I'm a bit of a brat about. I love shoes! I have lots of shoes! I wear two pairs. They're on a rug by the door. Out of the way. But they.stay.by.the.door. Otherwise? When I want to leave, I will have to go track them down, get distracted, and leave late.

At this point, it's a lot of finding methods that work for me when it comes to handling my ADHD. So in therapy I've been working on becoming aware of issues and their causes and how I can still reach the same end goal but in a way that works for me. I mean we agree that people with ADHD more or less lack internal structure, making external structure vital. Well, my mom, my brother, and more than likely my dad (he was always messy as can be and off in lala land) have ADHD so none of us had internal structure and I don't feel like growing up there was an external structure meaning that now that I'm adult and in desperate need of structure, I'm more or less starting from ground zero. As well, having a high intelligence level I never had to learn to deal with my disorganization and inattention because it never affected me that much, in school I could get away with acing tests off what I learned from class lecture, and mom was ADHD too so I just had to wait until she wasn't mad anymore, usually about twenty minutes. But now, I can't. (Surprisingly, not visibly? Whenever I explain my ADHD to someone, they're always very surprised. But when I explain how it shows up, it's a lot of "OH that makes sense, I just thought you were ditsy" type thing. I'm very up front about it as well since I understand it's going to complicate matters that involve me.) I don't know how people do it! You've got work and I'm in school and keeping up with household stuff and friends. So far, what's worked for me is a combination of things. If it's a time sensitive thing, it goes in my phone with an alarm that will go off with plenty of time for me to prepare for the event, just in case I forgot. If it's not time sensitive like I have to renew my plates by Wednesday, it goes on my calendar and when I make my nightly plans for the next day, I review the calendar and my "master to-do list." It works pretty well, until I start to forget to make my to-do list for the next day or start to feel burnt out because I've spent days clearing these to-do lists like a pro and... my goodness! There's so much left! My phone is sort of a "nagger" in that 'hey you need to do this RIGHT NOW' way. My to-do list serves as more a "get back on track" tool. I actually write a "incase I get distracted" list when I'm working on something that is highly detail oriented. Like bills. When I feel like my attention is wavering, or I want to get up to get a drink or snack, I have a notepad that I write what I was doing and what I planned to do next. So after the snack, I come back and have a better idea of how to continue.

great post

Submitted by brendab on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 11:27

Heartswap,

I enjoyed your post so much. You are really working towards getting a life that works well for you. The systems you have in place are exactly the kinds of things that I've read work for ADD. I hope you will continue to post and give us more information about things like your "drop basket". it was so encouraging to read your post that I have saved it for a future day to share with my friend when he wants to hear it.

brenda

I'm glad I could be of help!

Submitted by heartswap on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 13:50

I'm glad I could be of help! It's difficult to succeed in a world that's not really designed for you so something I learned was to step back and look at things differently. What do I do well? What do I do consistently? And that's one that can be difficult because I do a lot of things without thinking. Then use what I do and what I like and apply that toward goals I have. It doesn't always work. And I've gone through plenty of systems to get to the ones I have. But I find if I use systems that I already have or things I do well, it tends to work a lot more. I'm a waitress, I carry a black checkbook with paper to take orders at work. To keep from losing that and the important stuff inside (like my liquor license), I made a point to put it in my purse whenever I'm not using it at work. Well, it has paper and I take it everywhere with me, so I started putting my lists in it and started losing lists less. The hardest part really is when I get off track, it's very hard to get back to the routine I designed.

There are 2 of us in our household so what one doesn't do...

Submitted by Sueann on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 18:43

the other has to do.
I wish I could tatoo that on my forehead. My husband thinks that if he doesn't want to do something, that's fine. He does not understand that if it's something that has to be done (feed the dog or wash clothes so I don't go to work naked the next day) and he doesn't do it, I have to do it. That concept just doesn't enter his head. I've been trying to get that through to him for 5 years without getting anywhere. Thanks for, apparently, being the only other person in the world that gets it.

Yes--exactly! Does't seem

Submitted by madhatter on Tue, 07/20/2010 - 03:22

Yes--exactly! Does't seem fair somehow....

I Don't Mean to Be Daft, But . . .

Submitted by Hoping4More on Mon, 07/19/2010 - 19:03

Would someone please tell me what the difference is between "reminding" and "nagging?" Is it just a matter of degree - i.e. frequent reminding = nagging? Or is it something more substantive?

To me, nagging is when you're

Submitted by heartswap on Tue, 07/20/2010 - 11:47

To me, nagging is when you're angry and/or upset. Nagging is phrases like, "You STILL need to empty the dishwasher." "Have you even started the laundry?" "Did you forget to take the trash out AGAIN?" Where reminding is much more gentler. "Hey, can you empty the dishwasher now?" "Did you do the laundry?" It has a lot to do with tone as well. Just the same way, "May I please help you?" can come off snippy or sincere.

Pardon My Asking

Submitted by Hoping4More on Tue, 07/20/2010 - 13:25

Pardon my asking, but are you a person with ADHD? I am non-ADHD and I agree that asking those kinds of questions are nagging. I also think asking something like "Honey, have you called the bank yet?" or "honey, are you planning on going to the grocery store today" or "honey, will you please pick up those papers when you have a chance?" - asked nicely, without an irritated or angry tone, are not nagging. I think my wife would disagree, as she tells me I nag all the time.

It may be that when I say "honey, are you planning to go to the grocery store in the next day or two?" she HEARS "When the f*** do you plan to get off your lazy ass and go to the grocery store?" And I suppose that can't be helped.

But I wonder if, even given her tendency to read things into my questions/reminders that I do not intend, are there ways I might phrase things that would minimize her likelihood of doing so? Are there ways I can remind without her hearing it as nagging?

I would appreciate someone with ADHD answering my question. What do you consider a reminder vs. nagging?

For myself nagging is sort of

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Tue, 07/20/2010 - 15:42

For myself nagging is sort of over the top. Emotional, multiple times and within a few minutes of something being asked in the first place. Also, its made with the assumption that what you want isn't going to be done without you making sure it does, in a kind of annoyed way.

At breakfast each day we go through the list of what both of us has to do that day. Nagging is also you reminding but not needing a reminder, because that's embarrassing.

So I'll say "Okay today I have to x, y and z and maybe w. And you said you'd try to do a, b and c, and d if you have the time. If we can't get everything done, x, y, and a are most important. If we can't get those done, what's Plan B?"

It's about being a team and not one person being the person who is in the right and other other person the potential screw up.

As I've said, I have ADHD.

Submitted by heartswap on Tue, 07/20/2010 - 23:37

As I've said, I have ADHD. And I definitely agree with the reminding when one isn't needed. That's incredibly frustrating when I worked hard to do something and prove myself and not get any respect for it.

Hubby's Definition of Nagging

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 01:03

I asked my hubby and he says his definition of nagging is when you do it from a moral high ground.

He pointed out that today he was having trouble with the ceiling fan. For the life of him he can't seem to remember which sting to pull to turn on the light, or make it go in reverse, or adjust speed. He says I could have nagged him but didn't.

So there he was trying each cord in turn, cursing a fan that he installed and has owned for two years. I was mildly annoyed but I understand this is just one of those ADD things.

I didn't "nag" him by reminding him that he was the one who installed the fan or that we've had it for two years.

I didn't point out that he should have this figured out by now.

I didn't tell him that he does this every time.

I did not say anything about the fact that he always chooses the string further from him first, and if only he picked the one dangling directly over his head he would get the right one. (the way the furniture is placed you can only stand in one spot below the fan)

I did not tell him the right or wrong way to work a fan.

I did not point out that both myself and our children know which string does what function.

I didn't let my annoyance creep into my voice.

I simply took a deep breath and said "It's the one closest to you hun" with an understanding smile.

nagging -- implied time factors

Submitted by arwen on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 13:47

Hoping, I know you asked for answers from ADHDers, but since MIss B and her hubby didn't mention this one aspect of reminders that used to really irk my ADHD spouse, I thought I'd throw in my two cents. It's the implication of an expected time factor, either past or looming. Those insidious words like "yet", or "yesterday", as in "Honey, have you called the bank yet?" or "Honey, did you stop at the store yesterday like you said you would", no matter how nicely toned, would suggest to him that I was telling him that I had expectations that he was not meeting.

Which is, I guess, what I would call the difference between reminding and nagging -- a reminder is something that says "hi, I'm here" ("I" being the reminder topic, not any individual) and nagging is something that says "don't forget me!" The former is a simple announcement, the second is a warning with an implied judgment or criticism or distrust.

Obviously, though, it's very difficult for a person to remind someone without sounding judgmental in some way -- the very fact that you are reminding at all says "this thing is on my radar screen" and therefore carries an implied estimate of importance (and hence expectations leading to possible judgments). This is why my spouse uses a PDA -- the reminding process becomes much less personal -- he's not going to be annoyed at a machine who mindlessly tells him about things he himself (or both of us together) deemed important enough to put in it!

The reality with my ADHD spouse is that I will *always* experience a certain level of anxiety about his memory, because even with his PDA, he doesn't always stay on track. But there's no benefit to anybody in always expressing it. I find that it works best for us if I save *my* reminders for the *REALLY* important stuff, where he can at least understand why I would be anxious.

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore

That's Not Nagging

Submitted by Ren on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 15:42

Hoping, I responded to you in a different forum, but I will add my two cents (I know you asked for ADDers, but your posts always seem to resonate with me, a nonADDer, so I'll respond anyway).

I do not consider the lines you mentioned nagging. You are asking a question. Follow up questions. Perhaps they are also intended as gentle reminders. But that's it.

I got to a point with my husband that I realized that no matter how I phrased it, what he was reacting to was the idea that he might have to do something he didn't *feel* like doing. Who knows what this triggered: dread, frustration, whatever. He didn't snap back at me, but I would get eye rolling (which is in itself very dismissive and contemptuous), lots of sighs, and basically a lot of verbal and nonverbal language that told me that I was making a MAJOR imposition on him.

There's really no excuse for anyone to respond explosively or dismissively to what you are describing, especially if you have taken great pains to convey that your intention is to try to find a solution to a common problem. However, the problem is that the (non accepting) ADD spouse does not want to take the issue on as a common problem. That means work, dread, focus, whatever. I'm not judging, I'm just saying that in my opinion, it seems like your ADD spouse is really resisting (for probably ADD-based, not malicious reasons) taking ownership of certain responsibilities, then blaming your "nagging" to deflect the responsibility from her.

Basically what I'm saying is, if she won't take ownership and realize that there is a COMMON problem, rather than YOUR problem, then it won't matter what you say or how you say it.

Nagging vs. Reminding

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Thu, 07/22/2010 - 23:11

In my mind, nagging is the repeated reminders you give another when you have taken on responsibility for something that is not yours, but theirs. As soon as you see it as your responsibility to remind someone, rather than an occasional courtesy, it's nagging.

Also, nagging often is done in a tone of voice that shows displeasure, frustration, etc., though those things are sometimes not heard by the nagger.

The reminding when it isn't needed....

Submitted by Aspen on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 08:43

I'd actually go so far to say that based on my experience and the ADD relationships I observe most closely, that is this one of the most difficult areas in the nagging/reminding area for both partners. I understand how if you have gone to a lot of work to remember something, that you want trust that you will remember on your own, but when you regularly forget things how is your mate supposed to know when you remember and when you don't?

If I nicely ask if he remembers something (after forgetting many, many things for years), then he should be able to nicely tell me that he does instead of copping the "Of course I remember, don't nag me" attitude.

I also think my husband bases it on # of times of reminding which again has a lot to do with him. If something needs to be done on Monday, and we talk about it at our family meeting, and then I might remind him on Sunday or Monday morning, then if he hasn't done it by afternoon and is running out of time to get it done before closing (which is frequent), I might remind him again especially if it is something important. Regardless of tone because it has been mentioned to him several times, it automatically becomes "nagging" to him. Even if the reminding is done nicely and as a result of him leaving it undone for so long.

PLUS I am more likely to remind him several times over something he's already forgotten once or twice, so he already has bad/embarrassed feelings tied up with this item. This isn't my fault in my opinion, and since he's proven to have forgotten it several times, I have to protect us both by reminding him!

I Think You've Hit Upon Something

Submitted by Hoping4More on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 11:55

I think you've hit upon something, Aspen. Perhaps one definition of nagging is "reminding when the reminding isn't necessary." The problem is, how do I know it's not necessary? I, like you, tend to remind or ask if something has been remembered when I sense that "time is running out." When that is the case, my "theory" is that my wife either forgot or lost track of time, hence, my feeling a need to remind.

Admittedly, "time running out" is something subjective, and I probably tend to give myself more time to complete things, and so tend to start them earlier, than my wife would. So perhaps I remind a little sooner than I need to. Also, part of that might be my knowledge that it takes my wife a little longer to move from the "thinking" about doing something to the actual "doing" of it than it does me. Is there ever an "appropriate" or "reasonable" time to remind? An hour before something is supposed to be done? An hour after something was to be done? A day after? A week after?

Last week, my wife suggested she was going to schedule massages for us for this Tuesday evening. My guess was she probably wouldn't get around to it. And if she didn't - fine. No problem, right?

Well maybe, except, as we got closer to Tuesday and I still didn't know if she was going to schedule them, I started thinking about how I was going to spend my Tuesday night. Were we going to get massages? Were we going to do something else? Or was my wife going to be working on something entirely on her own, so that I would be doing something else?

If I was going to be doing something else, my preference was to schedule dinner with a friend. And therein lies the problem. At what point do I ask my wife if she scheduled the massages, or was still intending to do so if she hadn't yet done so? Was there a time when I could have asked that question without her reading into it some sort of criticism that she hadn't done what she said she was going to do?

I didn't think so. And so, rather than risk causing her to feel like I was criticizing her, I didn't ask. Instead, mid afternoon on Tuesday, when I hadn't heard from her about the massages, I sent her an email telling her I made plans to have dinner with a friend of mine and asking her if she could join us. Which, she declined to do.

Now, how crazy is it that I felt like I couldn't ask her if she had scheduled the massages without her feeling like I was nagging/criticizing her?

I just googled definitions of nagging and one I found is: "to scold, complain or find fault constantly." Perhaps it doesn't really matter *how* we ask/remind. Perhaps, as some have suggested, because someone with ADHD frequently feels as if we are finding fault with them (most likely because we *have* done that in the past), any question or reminder about anything they haven't yet done *feels like* nagging even if that is not how we intend it. Perhaps because it serves as a reminder of all the times we actually *did* nag in the past. And perhaps because when we ask/remind a person with ADHD about something they already may be feeling guilty about not doing/starting/completing, it makes them feel even worse. And who needs *that*? So, even if we only remind *once* about a particular thing, perhaps the fact that we are so frequently reminding, period (even if we never remind about any one thing more than once) makes it feel like constant fault-finding.

So perhaps my question really ought to be: Do we ever get to "wipe the slate clean" and start fresh? Are there people out there with ADHD, who used to feel like their spouse constantly nagged them, who have gotten to a place where their spouse can remind them about something, or ask them if they remember something, where it no longer feels like nagging? And if so, how did you get to that point?

When my wife offers or agrees to do something, I would like to then ask her something like this: "Is there a certain point when, if it seems to me like you might have forgotten to do X, that I might ask you about it, or remind you about it, in such a way that it wouldn't feel like nagging to you?" But so far, I have had difficulty having this kind of conversation with her. Any suggestions on how I might have that conversation?

Yes, You Can Get to That Point

Submitted by Ren on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 14:22

To answer your question, Hoping, you can get to a point where the ADD person "wipes the slate clean." I had a similar dynamic to yours before my husband was diagnosed with ADD. Except that instead of exploding, my husband would just ignore my reminders -- which forced me to get louder and more irritated so he would "hear" me. So usually it was me who exploded, in the end (and "started" the fight).

What changed is that my husband, since the diagnosis, has accepted that he needs reminders. He told me, recently, "I used to get really mad that you gave me to-do lists. I thought you were being too nitpicky and demanding. Now I see that you had to do that, because otherwise nothing would get done. And sometimes it didn't get done, even with the lists." Anyway, trust me, it's not all fixed -- now I am working on putting reminders/lists into forms that he can keep track of and respond to, which is its own challenge.

Anyway, I think it's great that you are looking for ways that you can change in order to change your dynamic, but it seems to me from reading this and other posts that your wife has not accepted the impact of her ADD on you. Almost like she has not accepted that she has a problem. The self-loathing and martyrdom, in my opinion, are not indicative of acceptance -- they are just different ways of making it about her, rather than about your needs (and thus allowing her to get off the hook, even though she may not be conscious that she is doing this).

My suggestions for a conversation would be to follow the Dance of Anger book. Find a time when you are calm, and explain to her the effects that he lack of follow-through has on you. "I get very anxious when I am not sure whether we are going to do something that we agreed to do, but that hasn't been planned yet." Then, without asking her to do anything, just give her a heads up on how you are going to handle the situation, as it stands at that moment (e.g., accepting that she is not going to change her M.O., for now at least). "What I'll do, to decrease my own anxiety, even if it is probably irrational and excessive on my part, is to check in with you on Sunday night to confirm our plans for the week. If something we talked about doing hasn't been planned by that point, then I will go ahead and schedule in the other things I need to get done. This will really be a source of relief for me as I go through the rest of the week."

This way, when you "check in" at the appointed time you are doing it for YOU, not to remind HER. Remember that as DOA says, she will resist this new dynamic, and will get mad anyway, probably. But at least this way you can let YOURSELF off the hook from having to wonder until the last minute what is going on. And if she ends up feeling like she's missing out on your weekly plans, maybe she will get on board and start helping you plan the week together.

What do you think?

Instead

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 14:27

Instead of reminding her to make the appointment why not say something like "Boy I can't wait for that massage on Tuesday! Thanks again for offering to set that up!"

Or "Wow this week went by quickly, I can't belive its garbage day tomorrow again. You're my hero when you take out the trash because I hate that job!"

Or "OMG! There's shoes in the hallway. Won't somebody save me from the evil shoes before I trip and fall?" (this works on all the ADD men and boys in the family)

Or "I love the days when you get home early from work. I am looking forward to to seeing you before 6 this evening, have a great day hun!"

Or "Thanks again for fixing that cupboard door this weekend hun ... oh you haven't done it yet? That's okay, you still have Sunday to do it and I'm sure you'll do a great job."

This is what my therapist calls a Positive Reminder, as it reminds the person without the assumption they are going to mess up and mixes in some Positive Reinforcement. One of the interesting things about using a Positive Reminder is ADDers thrive on this stuff and we often will try harder.

But of course, it all depends on your personalities and ADD types, history and relationship too. Its always a trial and error process.

Not So Easy

Submitted by Ren on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 14:56

Miss B, I like your posts a lot, but I have to disagree with you on this. I think the approach you suggested works if you are already in a positive dynamic with your spouse (as it looks like you are with yours). But if the relationship is dominated with negative interactions and a lot of pent up anger and resentment, the lines you suggested will feel contrived at best and passive-aggressive at worst .

As a non-ADD spouse, the single most important thing my husband can do for me, as we embark on the very early stages of healing our relationship, is acknowledge the effects that his ADD has on ME. I've asked Hoping this a few times, and she has agreed, that the "root" of a lot of the issues with her wife is that there is no dialogue, no back and forth, about what is happening on BOTH ends. It is much, much less important whether a particular thing gets scheduled or done if the person who didn't follow through can 1) take ownership of it and b) just acknowledge that in the non-ADD spouse's reality, that had an effect of some kind. It doesn't mean the ADD person is a failure, or a bad person, or a loser, or whatever. It just simply acknowledges that there is another human being involved in this and that person is not invisible and numb to everything.

It's all fine and good to boost up the ADDers self-esteem and all that. But as I read it, in this case it is Hoping's sense of self-worth that is being eroded by these interactions. Hoping is feeling ignored, lonely, and overwhelmed with the psychological burden of keeping track of things that her spouse should be keeping track of. Let's accept for a moment that this is hard for Hoping's spouse. We get that, and so does Hoping (it seems to me). But Hoping has to reclaim her sense of self, which in my mind is putting out there -- even if her spouse doesn't want to hear it -- that this affects her and that she will have to deal with it in such a way to make her life less stressful. No blame, no asking her spouse to do or not do anything, just informing her spouse on what she plans to do.

shouldn't BOTH parties have their self esteem considered?

Submitted by Miss Behaven on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 16:16

The way I see shouldn't BOTH parties have their self esteem considered?

The responsibility gap

Submitted by M on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 12:02

I just found the site and found your posting, Aspen. I am amazed on how much I could identify with your point of view. My husband has not been formally diagnosed, but we both think that ADD is a very likely issue for him. And just like you I came to various questions about fairness and responsibility balance.

I think that your friend's perspective is important to consider by all married people as a way to understand the commitment made and, hopefully, strengthen it. But commitment and responsibility are different things, and I think they tend to be interchanged in this context quite a bit.

Another observation is that many (not all) responding to your post are woman married with an ADD man. Might the issue of balanced responsibilities be more important to women than men? I think so, because we've learned in the last decades that we need to fight to achieve balance in the home, and it is not easy to see it so easily dismissed. It probably makes a number of us insecure that we're giving in, and it can be a matter of pride as well as sheer load ( in my case, I work full time in a very stressful job and earn more than my husband even when he works, he's been largely unemployed for more than 2 years, and yes, I still have responsibility of the household).

Another thing that gnaws at me deep down is that I want to be able to rely on my husband, should something happen to me. Assuming 100% of the responsibilities myself doesn't do much in reassuring me that he would be able to do it, if need be. And the need to be reassured in this case I suppose it is greater in women than men.

So coming back to your feelings: I understand why you (and me) might not be satisfied deep down with assuming 100% of the responsibilities, and frankly I don't know if I want to be. For myself, I want my commitment to him to be 100%, as well as to be 100% committed to take care of our common responsibilities as a family. Sometimes, I know that this will mean assuming !00% of responsibilities myself. But I don't think it is in both of our interest for me to assume them entirely all of the time.

I am curious if this makes sense to others.

Cat

You've noticed too?

Submitted by heartswap on Wed, 07/28/2010 - 02:03

You said something about a majority of this being women married to ADHD men. And it's not just this post, it's generally any site that has to do with ADHD and especially ADHD involved in relationships. It's an interesting thing I've picked up on, and frustrating as well being as I'm looking for potential pitfalls and solutions to current pitfalls as an ADHD WOMAN in a relationship with a nonADHD man. And I do believe there is a difference in the way men and women react. Perhaps not so much in relation to the ADHD (as I see it display more the type of ADHD rather than the gender. In all likely hood, I'm wrong. But on the other hand I have more of a "boyish" ADHD/combined mostly hyperactive ADHD.) In just everyday friendships, my female friends tend to be more aware of my ADHD, everyone knows about it, I make it super clear, but they tend to either criticize it or help me more often than my male friends who more or less just roll with it.

In my experience, when it comes to ADHD related issues, nonADHD women definitely tend to run the housework/childrearing path more often than men, who seem to be more on... I want to say in the relationship, such as the associated anger issues, the being there and gone. I know in my own relationships it didn't matter so much when I was late or had forgotten an engagement rather more that my fancy and ohsointeresting cellphone would get just as much attention as they did (This ends with a lot of 'no more phone for you!'). But perhaps it also hits something you said. You want to rely on your husband. Men are more in the "savior" role, he's supposed to take care of you. It tends to give me a lot of slack when it comes to how irresponsible I tend to be. Things like the fact I get distracted when I drive, he used it as an excuse to drive. My sleep is all kinds of messed up, and I'm prone to nightmares. Pounding on the door at 4 am wanting to be held? It didn't occur to me that he had just gotten to sleep or that I was being rude. He took it as a chance to be my knight in shining armor. It's not isolated either. Just recently I was discussing my bad habit of walking into traffic to be met with a response of "I'll protect you." It's more our roles.

I feel that because of my ADHD (and I'm sorry if I'm not making that much sense), I'm not very aware of the world. As I've pointed out, it's not too terribly much of an issue in most cases because of the fact I'm a woman. It can be. And oh holy hell have there been fights when I give up or didn't finish whatever. But he's supposed to take care of me, right? In the reverse, when it's your husband, not being aware of the world around him makes it pretty difficult for him to be your knight. It makes for a lot of let down, I'm sure. Heartbreak can lead to frustration and resentment. It's making some sense to me. The idea that he's supposed to take care of me but all I do is take care of him. And I understand I'm over generalizing some, I'm sure both parties tend to want balance. We can go out but he wants me to make the plans is usually what I run into.

Yes, But Not at the Expense of the Other Person

Submitted by Ren on Wed, 07/21/2010 - 19:21

Yes. But building up someone else's self-esteem shouldn't come at the expense of your own. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me like Hoping is trying to bend over backwards to make her spouse feel better about herself, build her up, take into account her feelings, etc., and frankly her spouse is treating her like crap (sorry Hoping, but that's what it seems like).

My suggestion for Hoping to let her spouse know that she feels stress and anxiety and that she is going to take care of it on her own does not come at the expense of her spouse. It's just communicating how Hoping feels, which is just a fact. As I said, there need be no blame involved. Of course, it's possible (and likely) that Hoping's spouse will *hear* that Hoping is saying that the spouse is *causing* the anxiety and stress. So be it. But that's not what would be said, and Hoping can't continue to take responsibility for her spouse's feelings, thoughts, and reactions.

As I said, I think the positive reminders/reinforcement is great once you get the ball rolling in the right direction, and both people feel that they have some footing in the relationship. But I don't think that's going on here. I think Hoping's spouse is seriously denying any responsibility or, alternatively, playing the martyr card, which leaves no room for Hoping's wants and needs.

You Do Get It, Ren

Submitted by Hoping4More on Thu, 07/22/2010 - 13:15

Thanks again, Ren, for your posts. You definitely seem to get what I am saying. And you are right - I am still working on getting to a place where my wife understands the impact her behaviors have on me. And we are getting there.

Just yesterday I shared with my wife that my thinking that she will take "requests for information" as nagging or criticism is very stressful for me because I don't want to cause HER to feel bad by thinking I am nagging or criticisizing her, but that the result is *I* feel bad because I can't figure out a way to express things so she does NOT feel I am criticizing or nagging. And that the result is I either don't say anything (not good) or say something and risk upsetting her and getting snapped at, dismissed, etc. Also not good. I think she is beginning to get that.

It's a journey . . . sigh.

I do appreciate hearing from some here that I seem to be doing *something* right. At times it feels like no matter what I do I just end up making my wife, and then me, feel worse. There's a real balance between speaking up/standing up for one's self and coming across as critical.

And it's not even that it bothers me so much that I might come across as critical. What bothers me is that my wife now see me/labels me as a critical person. (And a contriolling person. And a nag. And a . . . ) And that makes me feel very sad.

Whoa - that last sentence just put tears in my eyes. I guess that's the real crux of where I am right now. Maybe THAT's what I need to focus on communicating to my wife.

Does She Trust Intentions?

Submitted by Ren on Thu, 07/22/2010 - 15:48

Hoping, I'm wondering whether your spouse has trust issues, maybe from stuff in the past? My husband and I had REALLY bad arguments before he was diagnosed with ADD. But the one major thing that changed with the diagnosis is that we can finally trust each other's intentions.

Before, I interpreted his actions in a certain way because I thought that if he wanted to do something, he could. Now that I know that's not the case, I less frequently jump to the conclusion that he is being intentionally neglectful, or uncaring, etc.

Similarly, he used to think I was trying to be critical and controlling, but now that he understands his limitations, he knows that I am trying to solve a problem that will benefit both of us (like if I give him a list or reminder).

I'm wondering why, if you have repeatedly told your spouse that your intentions are to find a resolution, and not to hurt her, she still gets upset. Is there a reason she would not believe that that is your true intention? Because it seems like if you have been very explicit about your intentions, and she doesn't believe you, then she must think you are trying to manipulate her or something. That lack of trust can be a really deep underlying core issue you need to address first, before getting to more practical solutions???

Getting Closer

Submitted by Hoping4More on Thu, 07/22/2010 - 17:16

Hi Ren,

I just got off the phone with my wife, who after reading an email I just sent said: "So, it's not just that you didn't know if I had done what I said I was going to do, it's that you didn't feel like you could ask me about it?" YES! I said - Exactly! I didn't know how to ask "Did you make the reservations?" without it sounding like I was nagging or criticizing. I didn't want to do THAT because it would just confirm to YOU that I AM nagging and critical. So I didn't know how to ask."

She said she had read the blog yesterday about Melissa's book and many of the comments, where she read over and over how stressful it is for the non-ADHD spouse. She found one comment to be particularly poignant: "I always saw him as forgettable, and over the years, began to see myself as forgettable." And she also "heard" how terrible it feels for the non-ADHD spouse to so often have to resort to behaviors like nagging, criticizing and controlling. She said "So I realize it's not YOU, it's common to non-ADHD spouses."

THANK YOU!!

She then compared where we are in our relationship to the point where one gets when they are reorganizing a closet - where before you can get it organized the way you want, the way it will work best, you have to pull everything out and it's just one big mess on the floor. And it's not very pleasant to look at that mess. But you know it's going to be sorted out.

Yep, our relationship is one big mess right now. But at least now much of the "stuff" is on the floor right in front of us. So, maybe, just maybe, we can beging sorting things out, picking things up, putting them in order, and getting rid of some things.

Thanks to all who have responded to my posts this "go-around."

Awesome!

Submitted by Ren on Thu, 07/22/2010 - 20:09

You are definitely getting way closer -- it's that a-ha moment that is going to make a world of difference. Sshe's going to go back to old patterns (as are you) because old habits are hard to break, but it looks like the sunlight is peeking through and she will hopefully start seeing (even if after the fact) your point of view as well.

Keep me posted!

Finding a Resolution

Submitted by Hoping4More on Thu, 07/22/2010 - 18:55

And to answer your question above, Ren: I think she still interprets much of my attempting to find resolution as really tying to "fix" her. And hence, her response. I am not sure yet if she believes me when I tell her that when I ask a question is sometimes is just that - a question, and not a criticism.

I so appreciate this thread!

Submitted by de-fragmenting on Sun, 07/25/2010 - 23:56

Hi,

I have ADD and my DH is about at the end of his rope. I also have a bunch of other diagnosis, so I am not sure which problem is caused by what. But I really want to fix what I can.

There are so many things I want to respond to. I should have written them down. Miss B, I loved reading your descriptions of your experience. Amen, Sister!

I have also taken to heart as much as I could re: the SO perspective. All night I have been running in to the bedroom, where DH is watching TV (after many hours of discussion/fighting about our situation) telling him "here's another thing that they said that was exactly what we were saying! the nonADD person said X, and the ADD person said Y!"

As painful as it was, it was very validating to understand that the issues that we are struggling with are fairly universal. And I had MANY "aha" moments. I think we both feel hopeful--no doubt it is making him feel better that I am validating his perspective, and recognizing how difficult is must be for him to deal with my defensiveness, etc.

For example, I am realizing that the reason that I dug in my heels and said "I Can't" is because I couldn't think of anything else to do. I have been working SO hard for SO long to change. I am not dumb. I have created incredibly elaborate systems to help me keep track of my responsibilities. I am on a lot of very expensive medications. I am in therapy four hours a week and see my psychiatrist every six weeks. I am constantly trying new techniques. In the last six months I have been addressing my addictions. I go to meetings. I go to forums. I have accountability partners. I used to read self help books--lately I can't finish them. So I just buy self help books. I meditate almost daily. I haven't been exercising, however, so hopefully when I add that back in, it will help.

I have to do lists. I have SERIOUS to do lists. Routines. morning. daily. evening. weekly. I have been using Getting Things Done on and off for years. I track my waking and sleeping hours. (I have a huge problem with regulating my sleep). I have set up my files. I use Outlook to remind me of everything. (no PDA, however.)

I don't work, but I am responsible for a lot of the household chores. I take care of the cat. I take care of all of the appointments. I handle the finances. I take out the trash (when I remember).

DH says "if you didn't spend so much time planning, you would get more done!" but my experience is that isn't true. for me, if I let anything slide, the whole system comes crashing down. I KNOW it doesn't seem reasonable to other people, but for me to be able to keep a promise means that I am promising to keep the WHOLE thing going. If I am going to keep an appointment, then that means that I have to be awake, which means that I have to go to bed, which means that I have to be done with whatever I had to finish, which is always a compromise because there is so much to do...

I can't speak for ADDers who don't seem to be taking responsibility. but it is SO disheartening when DH tells me that "it is not enough." Because what matters to him is that the sink is free of dishes. Pretty much at all times, but most especially when he wants to do something in the kitchen.

I don't think he has ANY idea of how hard I work to keep the engine going. Or how hyper aware I am of the dirty dishes in the sink. because I know that it is going to piss him off. but sometimes, I just can't do it.

he is so afraid that if he agrees with me that "I Can't," that he is colluding with some kind of denial on my part. he doesn't see why he should have to lower his standards. he doesn't understand why I am so inconsiderate. why I get so defensive. why I argue with him, and say I am doing better.

he doesn't seem to notice my try, and seems to take it so personally when I fail. he keeps saying "it's easier for me to clean up as I go," as if I would discover the benefits of that and change my ways if I would only try it. et cetera.

BUT... after reading the website... I am realizing that I must be "trying harder" instead of ??? I'm not sure what the alternative is--I need to keep reading. I am realizing that I can ask him for help, and tell him everything that I am doing to "try," and see if he can help me find a solution. I LOVE the idea of a chore chart. I have discovered long ago that I "will work for smileys" on various forums where I post my action items and then get to put a smiley next to the things I've accomplished.

I have no idea of what a reasonable expectation of myself is. I never have. I have no clue how to estimate time. The only way I have been successful at that, was to write out my schedule in ten minute increments.

I have read so many nonADD folks talking about their exhaustion. I know my DH is exhausted, too. But I am tired. so very tired. frustrated, depressed, depleted. DH is angry all the time. I am an "emotional learner," which means that I am extremely sensitive to my emotional environment. I am slowly learning to detach from his feelings, but it is very unpleasant, and so disheartening when I have worked really hard all day but it still isn't enough.

But maybe today is a turning point for us. The ironic thing is, I believe he has ADD too. Maybe I can figure out how to work smarter, or whatever it is. maybe we can work on this together. and find acceptance and compassion for each other's point of view, and each other's plight.

wow, that turned out to be much longer than I expected! I guess I had a lot of pent up frustration. thanks for reading.

I want to take you home! I

Submitted by heartswap on Wed, 07/28/2010 - 03:45

I want to take you home! I have ADHD too and understand how you feel.

It is hard to feel this way and be told, "try harder" when you know you're absolutely doing your best. And addictions? don't beat yourself up ovwith er them, it's so common with adhd to have addictions and it makes perfect sense if you think about it. Especially stimulants. I don't know what yours are, but I'm terrible with legal ones like caffeine and smoking (alcohol will likely be added to this list soon). Both of which I refuse to quit, so if you are, I commend you! When I wasn't medicated (I had a lot of trouble with medication when I was in grade school and grew to hate it.) I self medicated through caffeine, and even now I use it. I love to sew, and I sew doll clothing which is so detail oriented so I'll have an energy drink with me while I work or I'll work on a project after work before my adderall has worn off. Plus, it's stimulating, and that's what we're after, right?

Lists, haha, those are fun, aren't they? I have lists for everything. I have this "master to-do list" since when my to-do list gets too long or something stays on it too long I get frustrated and hopeless and just give up on the whole thing. Then of course I have my to-do list for the day and usually when I'm writing that, I make "prototype" lists for the next few days. Like I know Today I need to do x, y, z because Tomorrow I have to do n. And I'm terribly forgetful and never EVER prepared. Which leads to this weird, exhausting, and cumbersome over-prepareness that... just doesn't work. So I ended up with notecards that detailed what I needed in my purse/car/backpack for general activities. Like my car needs my cigarettes, spare lights (for when I lose mine!), and gps for when I get lost. My purse needs my lists, my notebook, pens, etc. Then when I needed other items for tasks, that went on my to-do list for the day. And routines? Totally have lists for my routines. I don't make habits? I think? I can have my routine for weeks and I'll just forget to do it. You wake up and eat everyday, right? Okay everyday, wake up, eat. Wake up, eat. Then one day, it's wake up, oh hey is it going to rain today? Let's watch the weather channel!

The problem with this and what I fear about the "incredibly complex systems" you talked about, at least in my case, is that complex things and even chain-tasks (and I tell everyone this, especially people I work with) and I don't get along AT ALL. I find that I can't deal with that much information at once. Okay I have a, b, c, but what what did I do with d again? IS there a d? Type thing. Chain-tasks are the same thing, essentially. Like directions, I can give directions, getting directions? Not so much. For example: my friend just moved, she tried to tell me how to get to her house. Okay so take x rd all the way down. At the second stop sign, turn left, then at the next stop sign go right. Take that road until it T's then go left, at the light by the 7-11, turn right. You'll pass the sign for city x, and then when you get to x sign then two streets down, turn left, left again on the first street. First of all, I'm amazed I paid attention through all of that, but my short term to long term memory is utterly worthless. So I got to probably the second street she had me on and called her, "Okay, I did x and y, what was z again?" So in summary, I have to keep my systems simple or I get frustrated.

But I sympathize! I have to plan so much, but it's worth it! I get so much more done. I honestly do. I'm actually kicking myself at the moment for NOT planning. I have an appointment tomorrow, I'm supposed to have papers together, I need to get... whatever. Not that I didn't plan. There's a reminder on my phone, it's on my calendar, but I haven't been keeping up with my lists and so I'm going to have to rush to find everything I need, put off the plans I HAD tomorrow, cancel some of them because I forgot about that appointment. Plus, when I have my lists, it's not my general haphazard way of doing things, I actually have some direction. Without them, it's more or less, "What did I have to do today? Uhm. Well, I need some food, let's go to the store and buy everything I DON'T need." I read that being that we have ADHD, we should have shorter to-do lists. Which I do think helps some. Like 2 BIG things, like my appointment tomorrow and then 5-8 little things, like I need to go to the bank and deposit cash. So I'm getting things done, and I can COMPLETE my list and that feel awesome! Without feeling like I'm worthless because I didn't get everything done, and little by little, I get everything done. And if it's a good day and I get my list done and still feel like I have more momentum, I can go back to my "master to-do" and pick out some more things to do.

I really think that instead of "try harder" we have to "try my way." Everyone's different and we've got a set back, and what works for nonadhd people, doesn't work for me, but what works for me, may not work for you. I've given up on keeping track of time. That's kind of why I smoke. At work? I'm a server, I don't get breaks but I need them. I could take one but I'd lose track of time. A cigarette takes me about five minutes to smoke and that's generally about how much time I have to spare. So when I'm done, I go back inside. Other than that? I plan to take more time than I need and set reminders if I have a specific time I need to be there. If there's no specific time, then I don't bother with time. I'll get it done when I get it done. As for expectations, I can't give you much help. I don't know myself. Mostly, I leave it at, I do what I can do, and forgive myself for what I don't and ask for forgiveness from others. If I really screwed up, I make an effort to avoid it in the future. Like bills. I forgot to pay it. Okay, is there a way I can autopay? Do I need to set a reminder on my phone, calendar. The solution isn't always the same. The dishes are an issue? Maybe that's one of the big tasks. Or needs a set time. But hey! if you try a chore chart, let me know how it goes!

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