I was diagnosed with ADHD just after my 41st birthday, and I am close to turning 44. At first, the diagnosis and treatment brought relief and understanding to a lifetime of struggling, anger, and lost relationships. I read every book about ADHD that I could, applied behavioral and medicinal treatment (and still do), drastically improved my diet, and worked with an ADHD coach (who said, "Stop reading books about ADHD."). A few months after diagnosis, an awareness of how others perceive, treat, and talk about me began to create a vicious cycle of self-doubt, anxiety in all relationships, pervasive depression, and thoughts of giving up completely.
The sad part is that I like so many things about who I am! I like being free-spirited, creative, innovative - a "see the beauty in life" kind of person. I like researching and trying new ideas and hobbies, although I have to put checks in place because of cost (my husband was relieved when I researched Minimalism a while back). I love being with children - I am a preschool teacher, and I thank God every day that I am able to work again - but I also live in constant fear of losing my job because I might be distracted, say something wrong, or annoy the wrong person, and lose my job.
I fight guilt from the past - memories of raising my two wonderful children, who are grown and successful, because I wasn't the mother that I might have been, with treatment. When they are distant from me (I do respect their independence - I'm talking about apparent avoidance of me), I am sad and hurt, but feel that I caused that because of periods of hyperfocus that took my attention from them when they were younger.
When my husband, children, close friends, or coworkers are annoyed with me, or treat me like a problem they need to work around, I begin withdrawing and spiraling into depression. I avoid leaving the house, I question everything I am doing, I feel like no one can see past my ADHD to the person I really am, and I am devastated.
I am genuinely hurt and humiliated when others criticize or make sarcastic comments about me (but not surprised anymore). My husband tells me to ignore those who do that, but I am not that way; I have an open heart that enjoys encouraging and loving others, and the person might be a family member or someone I dearly love. Since my diagnosis, I make an effort to avoid friendships with other women, but ultimately, it might happen before I am aware of it, because initially others see me as a fun person they want to be around, and I am excited and interested in this new person. Later, though, the ADHD me comes through - although I try SO hard to manage it! - and they get annoyed, disappointed and distant. I have tried putting checks and reminders and codes in place to keep these things from happening - my ADHD catches me off-guard, and before I know it, I am criticized, blamed, avoided or treated like I am a goof. When I address this with those I am close to, I ultimately have to admit to myself that my ADHD behavior is the cause - I don't blame them for wanting to distance from me.
I am caught in a self-loathing cycle. I am afraid that it will become a "self-fulfilling prophecy", and I will lose everyone I love so much. I am not whining or being overly dramatic - it has taken me 2 years to reach out to anyone about this, but I need help because I am scared and don't know what else to try. I need an ADHD therapist or coach or group, and I don't know who to trust. Please help.
I'm so sorry you are hurting.
Submitted by Feathers on
I'm so sorry you are hurting.
Do your kids know about your ADHD? I am just wondering if maybe you explained they would understand more. It's never too late to have a relationship with your children. Once you know better, you tend to do better. My husband was never a hands on kind of dad with our kids when they were younger, but now that they are older he is trying to do better, even though they are technically adults now. (2 are still at home and they both have issues)
I don't have any advice about friends, because I tend to stick to myself, my husband, and my kids. I have a few people that I talk with, but nobody close. I think you sound a lot like me in a way with how much you love children, creative, and being a free spirit. Honestly, I think that if they can't see you for you, beyond the ADHD, then they're not worth it. I'd love to have a friend like you!
Thank you, Feathers, for
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Thank you, Feathers, for responding so kindly.
My children know about my ADHD, and they are understanding, and I try to respect their boundaries. I think I am hyper-sensitive to my behavior showing my ADHD. For example, if we are having a fun family and friends evening, playing games, I might blurt something embarrassing or talk too much. Generally I am not aware of my behavior becoming annoying until after the fact. Recently, we were on a college campus with our son, and I was so nervous that I kept staff members in too-long conversations. I have a loving family, they try not to hurt my feelings, but I can tell when I went too far. I am the one who is upset by that, more than anyone in my family. Prior to my diagnosis, I would get angry if someone mentioned I had talked a lot or said something inappropriate. I was frustrated that I couldn't keep friendships going even though I tried (It's frustrating to have someone ask you the same questions, like "so when is your vacation again?" several times in one visit.). Now I am sad, not angry with them - because I see what they see now. I'm frustrated with myself because I can't make it stop.
I like being free-spirited,
Submitted by c ur self on
I like being free-spirited, creative, innovative - a "see the beauty in life" kind of person.
These are all awesome attributes that can bring delight, smiles and happiness to so many!....None of these attributes will ever have a negative impact on your life or your responsibilities being a Husband or Father....
We just can't give our time, attention and care to our own desires, ahead of those we are responsible too....It's nothing but a matter of simple priorities, and self discipline....
C
Others don't see you that way....
Submitted by @abandonetheoldway on
Dear desp2017cd, what you say makes perfect sense...from the perspective of a non-ADHD spouse. It's easy to see that my wife can also get into that self-loathing cycle. She can attribute or take nearly anything and everything I say (or at times others say) in the context of ADHD. As listed in my post a couple of days ago (thanks for your response), money is our primary issue. Other things can be frustrating, but none have the global impact that money does and to be honest most don't. Because our struggle with money has been a continual thing for so many years, the dynamic this has created tarnishes our other interactions where she often will take everything I say in the same critical light as the things I say when I get upset and angry about the money. I know her ADHD creates symptoms that create challenges for her in many areas of her life, but not all of her symptoms have the same impact on me and most of the time I am unaware of her struggles.
When we battle money, the conversation quickly moves away from money to her struggle with ADHD. I think she externalizes her own self-perception and thinks that I'm thinking "she's broken and messed up with ADHD." All I am really thinking is "what can I do to help her get it together with the finances" or "why can't she get it together with money?" I never would have made it these many years being married if every symptom of her ADHD had the same impact on me or if I only looked at her as someone with ADHD. I know she lives with it every day, but it comes and goes for me and doesn't define her for me. It can at times frustrate me to no end, but it is not how I see her most days and at most times. Some of her symptoms don't impact me at all, some are mildly irritating, some I find comical, a few have significant impact, and some I just don't even know about.
Although you may perceive that your family, friends and colleagues see you in a negative light because of your ADHD, I very much doubt they do and even if they do it comes and goes...mostly goes I would guess. Most people we know see my wife as the much more fun one of the two of us...a woman that is light hearted, kind, caring and humorous. I would like to suggest that you assume that others think the very best of you rather than the worst.
I also have a couple close friends that have ADHD and I never think about ADHD in the context of them or our friendship. If I spent time analyzing things that happen between us, I am sure some of the things that go on I could contribute to a symptom of ADHD, but again I am not really thinking about it. Be kind to yourself, give yourself a break and don't take your perception of yourself when you're struggling and think that's what we're thinking about you. My guess is we're not. Continue to take care of yourself and agreed, find a coach and find a positive way to break the cycle.
Thank you for sharing your
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Thinking more about my experience with spending... spending money can provide an adrenaline boost, which my brain strongly craves. I am now better at catching myself before I hyperfocus, but even with treatment, I can hyperfocus and start a new (and costly) project. The projects that benefit us financially are those that others offer to me - as in helping out a friend or working for someone in an area to which I am dedicated. Does your wife have a passion for helping others? Or is it the challenge of shopping, finding exactly what she is focused on? Maybe she can get a part-time job in retail or a service area, like helping at a preschool, church, or senior center. Or she could be a personal shopper for someone who can't do that alone. I find that when I am busy in service, I am less likely to be distracted by costly hyperfocus.
You're finding your new you
Submitted by Chevron on
cycle. She can attribute or take nearly anything and everything I say (or at times others say) in the context of ADHD. ... where she often will take everything I say in the same critical light as the things I say when I get upset and angry about the money. I know her ADHD creates symptoms that create challenges for her in many areas of her life, but not all of her symptoms have the same impact on me and most of the time I am unaware of her struggles.
My husband has ADHD, I dont. This line of comment to you by Abandoned throughout his post is very much the kind of thought that came to me as I read your first post. At first, as my new husband and I began sharing days and nights together, I would sometimes hear from him statements that I was angry at him or judgmental of him or thought that he had ****ed up that, when he labeled me with those things he frankly scared me, because they were 180 degrees away from what I really had going on inside of me about him at the moment or...I wasn't thinking about him at all! I was in a neutral mode or was busy with my hands or mind about something else. A couple times when these labels of me as nasty judge came out of him that didnt match immediate reality, I wondered if I was in the presence of someone losing it mentally...It was so alarmingly off. But I discarded that possibility. I
We were coming off a classically intense early courtship into daily life, so the first few times I heard my new husband label me as angry at him or judging him a loser or hostile,p to him, I was very, very VERY sad, because what he feared or was defending himself against in "me" (that wasnt me) was so incorrect ...as a description of me, the real me...that I wept, and I can tell you that I did cry. I love him. I have never loathed him. It's not in me. Not in our worst moments have I thought him a ****up. He's not. I knew he wasnt crazy. It was so deeply sad, and I feared for the relation longterm, that he had , after a wonderful beginning such a belief...where did it come from? His belief was real, I could see, but where did he get the belief?? That I was (pardon my French) an angry, judgmental bitch waiting for him to slip up so I could judge him a failure.?..
I was paralyzed and sad about ths for awhile. I was a complete novice, and I mean really a complete novice at ADHD when these labels of me by him started coming into the relation. It took me awhile to get it solidly understood that the labels of me, as such a reactive, judgemental person, angry at him were something from inside of him. I have a solid, even v ery solid grasp on what words I've uttered, what my tone of voice is, what is going on in me, and what my actions are. I dont lie to myself about these things, nor do I misrepresent myself to other people. I've learned that the more truthful I am, the better for me and for people around me. That's what I'm working on and am firmly committed to. So I'm not very convinceable that I meant harm when I didnt mean harm. Like I said to my husband one painful morning when he was stubbornly insisting what he claimed about me the night before, "look' I know when I'm being angry or a jerk. It feels different inside when I'm being a stinker." So no I wasnt that judge meanly waiting to take a whack at him.
I kid you not, in my inside I sometimes was bebopping around in my thought about something else, or worrying about my project completion at work...I've had a lot of that kind of worry that doesnt have anything to do with him in the last years, or looking at the sunset, and I would hear that some question or remark I made about something else was a criticism of him, he'd raise his voice and yell at me to get off his back. Like, Abandoned has given you a great list of the various kinds of non judgemental, non hostile things that can be going on inside the person who is with you.
Look, I love my husband, ALL of him, very much. Yes, some things he does have an impact on me, and some of those impacts create hardship for me. There's no getting around that truth, or hiding from it. Ditto my actions having an impact on him. But truly in goodwill and kindness, I urge you to consider Abandon's advice to you at the end of his post. Your judgmentalism of yourself is not what people, most of them most of the time are thinking of you.You've discovered in discovering more about who you are, that your ADHD generated behavior really can create difficulty for the people around you. Yes, that's true. But that doesnt mean that a) you're a mess of a human being...no, no! Nor does it mean that b) you're surrounded by a pack of merciless judges waiting to pounce on you. No, no.
It's a longterm thing to learn how to "do" the newly seen you, among other people, with confidence in you, learning how to do things differently and better with people. I wish you well
:) it took you more than three years and some trial and error as a kid to master some of the best in you
For whatever its worth, those interactions about which I became sad and afraid, because no I was not judging, criticizing, disliking or being mean to my husband but he insisted! Fiercely, that I was...lol, even at times when I hadnt said peep, tended to occur in two circumstances. They pretty consistently came right at the end of the day, when we were tired. And/or when he was stressed and upset about other things, that had everything to do with him but I hadnt been involved it. You might, as part of your thinking things over, see if there's an exhaustion or stress piece to the moment that you think you are messing up, or think that people are thinking you messed up. More rest, more stress release might be a help
My husband is not, nor has he ever been, a ****ed up human being. Nor are you. : ) nor am I.
This is something that seems
Submitted by c ur self on
This is something that seems to be almost unavoidable....There can be such a difference in the detail of our thinking and how that thinking surfaces in the patterns of our life....That it can be completely lost on our spouses....Our lifestyles actually become offensive to each other, just because they are so incomprehensible to each other....
So that the adhd brain, and the non-adhd brain are both very susceptible to negatism due to the lack of understanding of what they are seeing and experiencing....Assigning blame where there is no intention or motive to hurt the other is common when there is no comprehension...
I think there's more afoot in projection than that, C
Submitted by Chevron on
What you say is certainly often true, that people can put themselves in the judgment seat and scowl,frown, reject or consider one's preferred ways of doing things the only correct or virtuous way of doing things, and so therefore any observed deviation from one's own standards or practices "deserves" to be condemned because it is believed to , as you say, be offensive to the self appointed judge of others. Certainly.
But in the particular issue of projecting on to others, attributing to others what in fact is going on in themselves, there are deeper layers to the interaction, and if what's going on is, in particular, projection, or displacement onto other people what is in fact a problem of one's own interior self harm, or hiding from oneself not considering one's own fears or flaws and having the fortitude to be, with God's help, one's own executor of better, that's where the source pain is to be healed. Inside the projector. J has been writing in detail about this very thing of late, and I think with insight. Some relational problems require truthful introspection and doing one's own inner work. Projection, I think is an example. J has been naming some of the deep matters, and the paths of inner healing that he's walked, himself.
Chevy...I agree w/ you....
Submitted by c ur self on
Conflict always begins in one mind, before it starts spilling out onto others....In my own quest to avoid conflict...I am working on forming mental habits...One; recognize any heightened emotions with in me, and deal with it....Two; accept the fact that in a mind of denial there is very limited ability for "Internal Introspection"... I must always stay aware of this, and be in full acceptance of it....The refusal to accept, that 95% of the time, any light of awareness I try to shine on poor behavior, WILL BE met w/ defensiveness...To loose awareness and not have full acceptance of # 2, will most always bring on #1.....
You make a great point...But, just like in every book related to marriage or adhd...There is always one common denominator that will be in there, for ground to be gained....There can't be denial....There must two, not one (one is never enough for relationships) being aware of the problem, and having a desire to do this truthful introspection you speak of.
Most of my posts, and many hours of my life, is spent learning and sharing how to have a healthy peaceful life, when living w/ a partner in denial...One where communication is extremely limited...Especially when it comes to any kind of reality self-awareness discussions....
Once I came to terms (still evolving, lol) with the fact, that there isn't anything I can say, to bring awareness, or that will bring any kind of therapeutic effects to a mind in denial....I find I can have rest an peace....
To ignore denial is a death sentence to our peace....It's like stepping in a fresh pile of Dog mess w/ your favorite shoes on....for the next little bit things are going to stink!
Have you ever noticed who is on this forum seeking understanding and help?? It's never the one's in denial....Occasionally someone will log on and take an ugly shot at us, and never return..Those are the denial minds....Truth and what it takes to be accountable is just to painful for them....
C
Perhaps there are some
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Perhaps there are some options, though, beyond confrontation in order to achieve connection (thus, hopefully, reducing poor behavior?) with your spouse... like careful timing,
simplifying surroundings,
writing things down (this goes both ways...if I could take notes during social conversations I would! I have recorded reminders into my phone immediately after, for example),
remaining calm during the initial burst of irritation as the ADHD spouse switches deep focus to giving you focus (a neurologically- initiated frustration, not a personal attack),
speaking quietly (which forces the ADHD brain to block out stimuli),
touching the spouse lightly while speaking (my husband touches my shoulder lightly as he asks for my attention, and this is a pre-spoken agreement), etc.,
and many others...
Chevron.......The Projector
Submitted by kellyj on
You are so right about one thing and that is the ability to simply know who or what you are and doing that work first which is really very important I think. I say that now of course, but to a certain extent, some by nature do it more or better than others and I am mre like that anyway? But the Projector inside everyone, is Projecting all the time whether we realize it or not? What it projects, wil been seen and felt by others which is the only part that you can never really know? As was mentioned here in this thread already by Abandoned here: Some of her symptoms don't impact me at all, some are mildly irritating, some I find comical, a few have significant impact, and some I just don't even know about.
The thing is, I know this and to the point, I know and knew this going way back to my early adult years before I even knew I had ADHD and nothing has changed. That is when I stopped being overly self conscious like I was as a teenager and got enough self confidence that said....."you can't please eveyone?". And even knowing, that some poeple are "less pleased" with me than others and that's just the way it goes. After I was diagnosed however, that does change that somewhat because now, if you actully want to do something about it, you've got to paying attention to it more and to the point, all the time for a while or at least, until you knock these things down one by one and get a handle on them. That puts a caveat onto :you can't please everyone" and just dissmiss it after that? What I realized to the point,....is "that I can't, not annoy everyone" and the "most annoyed" are usually a sign or an indicator of exactly the most problematic areas. What really confounds this even more ( as I figured out a long time ago too ) that the "most annoyed"...also appear to have the "most" or a host of personal issues or problems themselves which I use to just see them as "problem people" from my point of view. Well, in part that is true....but the other half of that equation is.....they are annoyed at something? LOL And that something, is the perfect indicator of where I need to look at for myself. While I would say.....most people have a pretty balanced attitude toward this like it sounds that Abandoned has himself, as he said, there are a few things that REALLY ARE important to him and those handful are a problem for him, no doubt what so ever? And that handful, is also what I have been most interested in, and also making sure I am not missing anything along the way? This entire process of weeding out, will make you self-conscious all by itself. It seems, you have to go some, and you get more self constious at the beginning when you are having to think about it all the time where before you simply were not. Not thinking about it, leads to the problems. Thinking about it, leads to becoming insecure and self consious ( again) since you're having to go back and revisit things or you are just becoming more aware of some of the lessor or less noticeable things to you which most people might not say or even mention, but are still annoying? And yet, the fact remains there are some, there IS no pleasing and they are always going to Project, their negativity on you simply ....because, for their own reasons that are more specific to them? As I will always remember my T pointing out to me that I would make a great litmus test to determine a person with some Anxiety issues, by just placing me into a room with them, and watching through a two way mirror! LOL And I still think it's funny as I did then because this is very true. My mother and my wife for example....being on that list of people since I tend to have that effect on them, since I act in more unpredictable ways that hit upon their need for control and they don't like surprises or people who don't act in very prescribed ways. The less spontaneous and less "outgoing" or even more "introverted" people are in that way......my hyper extroverted kind of "unpredictableness" hits all their buttons at once. People who tend to be what they use to call "anal retentive"...find me almost intolerable and I sometimes with them. If you could picture "Monk" from the show "Monk"...I would be a walking nightmare and a threat...to that character let me tell you!! LOL With no intention what so ever on my part....."Monk" would be put over the edge by my very presence I think? Extremely fastidious and exactly folk ( pencils all lined on the desk....draws perfectly in order with labels and a precise place for everything ) would probably find me to be next to the Anti-Christ....and that is what they would Project onto me or outwardly at me in my direction.LOL I would be for them....what they are for me.....an "intrusion in my space".......except as my T pointed out to me.......my habits or my ways.....are what would be intrusive. For them....that would be the "poke" they feel, with no intention on my part what so ever. In the means time though, I'm happy and treating them like anyone else and I have no attitude or any negative feelings toward them, until they get "poked" by me say....not leaving everything precisely as I found it. Moved out of place, some minor spill or something on the floor I missed or didn't notice....which is the big scheme of things and with most people for sure....these are minor if not on a slight annoyances. For the more extreme end of the same spectrum.....this is almost intolerable to "Mr Monk" is you can picture me and him sharing the same space. And even if it's not to that level for sure, there are those who are much more affected by "all the little things" and they really like to have "all the little things" ..and...."all the big things" in order to a very high level or even one might say to extreme. On the extreme end of : order, organization, clothes pressed and spotless, all things perfectly in order and not one thing out of place. There is absolutely nothing you can say "bad" or that is "not good' about them, or the way they keep their enviroment since, it's damn near perfect and you cannot argue with perfect now can you? The problem comes, when you are not "Perfect" like they are, right to the point. It's not that I have a problem with them....it's that "they" ( on the extreme end ) have a problem with me and they make that clear in a very negative and sometimes hostile manner or way. That, is their Projection....outwardly onto me.....not how I see them or even how I see myself. They are free to be that way all they like....but in respect to me.....they see something wrong with me or something wrong with the "way I am". They are not gving me the same respect, to be anyway I like just like I do with them? I don't judge them for being that way...but they judge me and that goes deeper into their phsyche...,.,.as to why they "have to have things that way" or they can't be Okay? If someone has such a narrow range or narrow set of "tolerances"....then in terms of two machine parts put togehter....then there is no "slack"...OR "slop"....or "wiiggle room" allowed. When you are talking machine parts and your considering "tolerances" the terms....."forgiving" is used....to describe a relationship between those two parts when they function, that either allows them to work even if there is a lot of free play or slop or play .,,,,,and they still function just fine no problem? On the opposite end of the spectrum.....two machine parts that require extremely tight tolerances are said to be "not forgiving"...and if there is even a slight variation or "play" or "room" or "space"...then there will be a total malfunction or catastrophic failure. On an engine or machine that has "tight tolerances" then that is normally a "high performance"...."tempermaental" and "close or tight" tolerance machine. One as said to be "unforgiving" if the slightest thing goes wrong or gets out of wack?
So in this way, it's pretty easy to say that their is nothing wrong with a low performance engine, that will last and last and work until it is just falling apart, and yet it still works right to the end since it's tolerances are low, it works even with a lot of play and slop and it is very forgiving and just runs forever and ever and is very low maintenance. It may not be a high performance engine....but it will mow your lawn for thirty years and give you no headaches what so ever? There is a lot of good things you can say for an engine like this. Low maintenance, low demand, loose tolerances and they never die. Economical...and very low maintenance? In a lawn mower....it is the perfect engine and exactly what you want.
On the other hand.....a Ferrari engine is said to be "high strung?. High maintenance, extremely tight tolerances, and is very unforgiving. The slightest thing that goes out of this tight range or tolerances.....and that engine with just be a basket case and barely even run? The tiniest thing out of place.....and that high performance engine will be next to worthless since it just won't even run well enough to drive around the block. But....when everything is dialed in to perfection and you've got everything in synch perfectly....nothing will outperform a Ferrari ( or the comparable class of engine ) and it will go faster and have more power than almost anything else. It's a race engine and that is what it's built to do. For that application....it would be over kill and 1/2 in a lawn mower simply put. That would be redicilous.....to put a high performance engine like that in a lawn mower. It would be the biggest pain in the ass lawan mower you could ever hope to have!! Talk about high maintnenace.....forget about it!!! LOL
And people sometimes tend to fall in those same kind of categories but these two extremes at the two opposite ends of the spectrum...are completely not comparable with one another or for that matter very good in anything but a limited number of uses. They are not, what you would call....general application or average use and they will only fit a small niche of applications since they are not universal engines that you can stick in anything. A lawn mower with a Ferarri engine....is about as worthless as a Ferrari with a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine in it......no difference....they are both pretty worthless at that point and neither one will work very well if at all in that case.
Just a different way of seeing things and seeing how they all interrelate to one another?
J
EXACTLY
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Yes - this is exactly it! And my husband confirmed that one of the people who has been so cutting - someone I can't avoid and need to try to cooperate with - is very exacting and contemptuous of my different approaches - no matter that I am innocently happy-go-lucky, and frankly, unaware that I have shuffled the cards incorrectly, so to speak. This person has an incredible ability to shred me to pieces - wouldn't I love to remove that power - at the precise moment when I am cluelessly thinking all is well. UGH!
Very good point, that this
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Very good point, that this goes very deeply into the heart.
I agree - this is why ADHD
Submitted by desp2017cd on
I agree - this is why ADHD thinking is seen as "distracted" instead of over-attentive or over-stimulated, why forgetting is seen as negligence, why talking too much is seen as intentional rudeness, why irritation is taken personally instead of understood as the brain struggling to switch out of hyperfocus, and so on.
My desire is to put "checks" into place mentally that I can practice until they become ingrained, concrete cues so that I know when I am talking too much, need to move to a less stimulating area to converse, need to leave before I get overly excited, am moving into hyperfocus, and so on.
heightened awareness
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Thank you, Chevron, for your thought-provoking insight. I spent a considerable time thinking about your words.
May I expound: I didn't experience a time in my life without challenges in making or keeping friends, or a time that social boundaries were easy for me to recognize (school, etc.), and not to say that I didn't have a good childhood or school experience, but just to say that it was eye-opening to finally know why I had challenges that others didn't have. I read once that people with ADHD have a heightened sense of awareness, having trained themselves to notice patterns in facial expressions, body language, tone, and so on, since these are clues before others' reactions (I think the book was by Hallowell, actually...I'll try to locate it.). (I am sure that you know that ADHD is not "distraction" at all, but actually attention to too much at once, so that when, for example, I am in a conversation, my brain is taking in the words, the person's entire person, not only voice, smell, clothing, jewelry, but the entire area around us, like the noisy A/C, someone walking in the distance, and also my own sensations, like the tag at my neck, the tightness of my shoes, and on and on.)
In fact, I am very perceptive to how others are feeling - this has been confirmed. You might ask then, what are the challenges - why do I lose relationships? - and it's because at the beginning, the newness allows me to focus on that person, since when something is new/unknown to me, it is stimulating to my brain, which gives me the ability to block other stimuli. I am sure that the person feels that I am very attentive at this time. The challenges come when the newness wears off, and my brain begins taking in everything again, a fact that I would not choose. (My choice would be to block everything else and LISTEN.) Other challenges include my talking too much, and I think this happens because my own words aren't any different that someone else's - I mean that my words don't block my brain from taking in what is happening around me, and I am unaware of how much I am talking.
I share this because your husband may have a lifetime of trying to gauge others based on the reactions he was getting - "Why did that anger Dad? What happened so that my teacher sent me to detention?" - with his intention being to avoid negative reactions and increase positive ones. You may ask, if that is true, then why don't we improve our focus and behave appropriately, since this heightened awareness is there? - and the simple answer is that whatever gives the most stimulation to the ADHD brain at the moment is in control. Breaking that control is extremely hard, since it involves an executive function, which is given much weaker functionality in the ADHD brain.
I may be off track as far as your husband's personal experience, but these are puzzle pieces of ADHD I have somewhat fit together, while still processing their impact. (Please excuse my generalizations if you have ADHD, as I am aware that each ADHD person has a unique view of their own challenges.)
What's happening on the inside and on the outside?
Submitted by Chevron on
Thank you for your interesting reply, desp 2017. Much of what you wrote reminds me of what my husband has said about himself or hasnt said about himself but I've wondered on observing things at home. He has ADHD. I dont. : ) I have some of my own issues. Of your thought provoking post, I'd like to quote a passage that introduces one of your topics:
... your husband may have a lifetime of trying to gauge others based on the reactions he was getting - "Why did that anger Dad? What happened so that my teacher sent me to detention?" - with his intention being to avoid negative reactions and increase positive ones.
I believe that my husband has hs own history of this He has spoken of it. You elsewhere mentioned sensitivity to social cues. I believe that my husband is very sensitive to his social environment. In some ordinary social contexts he is slow to put the cues that he is picking up into a reliable enough context, to be able to know with much certainty how people will probably respond. So he gets cues, like changes in facial expression or voice tone, very sensitively, but in some social contexts is slow to be able to predict to what the cues refer. For example, he's sensitive to changes in my face, but doesnt know very easily what th shifts in my face are reactions to. I have learned to describe my feelings and thoughts, when I see him picking up a cue but not knowing what it meant. That is the fastest way to help him out of his quandary. But he needed to oearn to trust that I was telling him the truth.
You may ask, if that is true, then why don't we improve our focus and behave appropriately, since this heightened awareness is there? - and the simple answer is that whatever gives the most stimulation to the ADHD brain at the moment is in control. Breaking that control is extremely hard, since it involves an executive function, which is given much weaker functionality in the ADHD brain.
I think you've named something important there, that the cue from other people, comes to the ADHD person along with cues from other things all at the same time, and the bundle of stimuli coming in simultaneously slow down the ADHD person's response, and perhaps if you like raise the possibility of veering off away responding to Stimulus A to instead respond to Stimulus B. Did I understand some of your point?
I'd like to add a new point to the discussion that you havent brought up so far but which from time to time does get mentioned by discussion board members, which is that not all stimuli that provoke emotional, conversational or though responses come from the world outside the body of the person. In fact, I'm guessing that it's true for most people to some degree, greater or lesser, and I can vouch it's true for me and very, very much looks like it's true for my husband that our attention is crowded, all at the same time, with, memories, internal thoughts, our own body sensations, background noise, the words being spoken to us, the facial gestures used by people around us, or memories and gaps in memories of what they said 5 minutes ago or yesterday. I hope that's enough of a description.
Our attentions are crowded simultaneously by what is happening inside of us and what is happening outside of us. This is very true for me. Always. It is true for my husband Apparently.
Now here's the rub. With people like my husband and myself in which much is going on inside, all the time during conversations, while working, all the time, it is important...I think very important...to building relations and living in them, to be able to know with reliable accuracy what's going on inside one's body and what's going on outside.
Notice that this knowing the inside from the outside is not anything to do with observing changes in faces. Its rather an issue of being able to perceive when I am interiorly stimulating myself, so to speak, and to distinguish that from something that my husband said or did....or might have intended. If I cant make that distinction with good reliability, he and I are in trouble.
This is an area that is particularly difficult for people with alexythymia.
If I discern that the inside of my head is contiguous with someone I'm interacting with, I will act as if he is a piece of me. That I dont think is healthy. Its my sense that all people may have it in them as a possibility to overmerge others into themselves, perceptually, and some of us may have a special problem with it.. I do think that, , the more loaded the mind and attention, the greater the possibility of presuming that what is going on in one's own mind is going on, or "has" to be going on in other people. ,
Now the downside of this is, of course, that as Abandon wrote, people are very often thinking their own thoughts, not my thoughts. People outside of my body always are motivated by their own motivations, never my motivations and very often their motivations are not what I presume their motivations are.
My husband and I have worked on this issue, a lot. At the beginning of our marriage He was dead wrong, over and over again well over 90% of the time when he told me what I was feeling or thinking, or reacted to me as if I were feeling or thinking those things. And he was telling me insistently what he presumed I was feeling or thinking. My dear husband was a real pain in the ass on this one, and it was disheartening. So much for social intelligence, even though he was picking up that nuances and tone shifts were happening, like a minesweeper. It took me a while that he was presuming histhoughts were in me, and presuming that I was having the reaction that he was having or that he would have in the situation. I was doing some of that to him but he seemed to be doing it ALL the time, in intimate situations (in practical conversations, no)
It's a recipe for interpersonal unhappiness.
we are tackling this, "no, that was in your head, not mine" problem by talking. We're both getting the habit of saying"this is what I mean"...and here's the kicker: believing each other. It's going to be a work in progress because we both mind flood.
One can, of course, through exerting coercive force on others, or shunning them, just excising them from one's life try to create an environment for oneself in which people in the world outside one's own body conform to what One thinks they do and say. But that's not a road to happiness. It's a road to isolation and control.
I too agree w/ this....desp & Chevy..,Happen's here often....
Submitted by c ur self on
(you may ask, if that is true, then why don't we improve our focus and behave appropriately, since this heightened awareness is there? - and the simple answer is that whatever gives the most stimulation to the ADHD brain at the moment is in control. Breaking that control is extremely hard, since it involves an executive function, which is given much weaker functionality in the ADHD brain.
I think you've named something important there, that the cue from other people, comes to the ADHD person along with cues from other things all at the same time,)
My wife will lock onto my expressions, my wording detail...And if I loose her, or if she fails to get my cue's (read me) she gets frustrated very easily. She seems to be looking to pattern her response's and behaviors based on external things, and other people....(Especially me)...She is always drawn to the next shiny thing (highly stimulating) w/ abandon at times....It plays out in the eyes of others like no desire or ability to discipline herself....Which it is, but, in a somewhat involuntary way...When she is in hyper-focus, she stops looking for the cues, and she is just out there...It makes calm communication almost impossible when her brain is that locked in (stimulated) to it's mission....It's tunnel vision...I can do the exact same thing, but, I can do it, without loosing consideration of my surrounds and responsibilities.
C
Chevy, back to your post, one more time.....
Submitted by c ur self on
Just wanted to say how much I agree w/ what you are saying here....You may have changed your screen name, but you still have that uncanny ability to put in print, so many of the things that I experience, do or think about....It is weird...But, in saying that it brings me right to the point you made....(If I discern that the inside of my head is contiguous with someone I'm interacting with, I will act as if he is a piece of me. That I don't think is healthy.)...I do this same thing, I did it with you...On my end, I felt so connected with most everything that you had to say...I felt so much care and concern; I also felt held accountable by the honesty and depth of truths you shared...When you cleared you posts and screen name, I felt a little lose, I think J did also....(not trying to get weird on you lol..)...Probably not healthy to make someone you've never met your sister...LOL...Although that may be the reason I felt so connected...You are my Spiritual Sister.....
(And he was telling me insistently what he presumed I was feeling or thinking.) My thoughts on this is...I would say this sounds like something a female might do..(wife does it...) It's interesting that your husband did this...This assuming what is going on in another persons head can be a quick ticket to no where good..:)...I would think it probably happens ( let me assume here :) because of insecurities that they picked up along life's way...But that brings up the question in my mind do we need to read someone we trust to love us and be honest.?? I say no....Do we need to just accept if something is wrong in their mind...They will share it openly if they feel it's an issue to discuss?? I say yes...
Maybe it's human nature to create conversation that is built on assumptions...Inquiring minds want to know right?....LOL....I think the best way to deal with this to be respectful, but still bring wisdom back to the forefront is, (not that I can be quiet and do it every time) when they start an inquiry that begins w/ a judgment or an incorrect or unhealthy assumption...Give them an ear, but don't respond or reply...When they look at you to respond...Just ask them this; "do you have a question for me?" (make them ask u a direct question) If I redirect the mind reading and assumption in order to give an opportunity for healthy information exchanging, that is all I can do....But in reality, I get sucked into unhealthy situations to often....Then you find yourself defending against a mind reader...And you start asking yourself,,,OMG...How did I get here?? LOL.....We really shouldn't allow ourselves to give any credence to mind reading attempts, its just Poop, we are intentionally stepping in...
C
This discussion board
Submitted by Chevron on
C, I think one of the great benefits of this board for me is that people say what is really happening in their lives, and the impact of events on them. "Drive by" criticizers of this board who read people's descriptions of problems in their lives on this board, or their descriptions of their reactions to their life problems, feelings and thoughts about those problems (which often are squelched, gaslighted or argued away in their offline life)but dont stick around either to learn more about the life situation of the persons writing or to read the details of what thread members have to say about the thread topic, I think miss what this board is about, which Melissa has named: learning to thrive.
There are lots of e things that board members have taught me, through their own description of life in a household with ADHD in it, and through telling the truth about their and their partner's coping or non coping in relationship
For example, It takes two. It takes both members of the relationship working...hard... on communication and learning to do what each didnt know how to do, at the outset of the relation. And really DOING it.
I knew that with my head and my lipservice already. But it took, reading many many incidents and the writer's own struggles and feelings with the incident that in a very weird and exact way described what happened in my home and described my own feelings and struggles with that kind of event, before I really "got" that one person cannot...cannot! Do all the changing, cooperating, worrying, leading, giving, money earning, while the other one gets the benefits but doesnt share, work together, give, etc too.
I had to "wear" other peoples thoughts about this that so matched my own, until I understood that for me, for us and for my partner, I had to look for other ways than to take more and more on me. So I think we can learn, or get other angles on things, through th discovery that someone else is in the same kind of situation and it has the very same kind of impact on them as it does on me. I'm now much more firmly committed to "it takes two". I've been taught this by both ADHD and non members on the board. The most powerful convincer to me has been this striking thing that members often say, "you are describing exactly my problems....my spouse says and does exactly what yours does" Or the flip side of it "my spouse does not do/say that, though the situation's the same" or "I tackle that differently, our situation needs something different"
So we're trying on each other's minds. I think that's a great good of this discussion board.
...where I think trouble can come in is projection, which is not finding or hearing something very like one's thoughts uttered by someone else that helps one get a more realistic picture of oneself, its the presumption that the outside world must fit what's going on in one's head. ...and worse other people's intentions actions and thoughts fit only the worst material of what's inside one's head.
living with a projector of negativity, I think its about as tough as it is living with other dysfunctions that we talk over on this board: one's own or one's partner's denial, rigidity, coasting, hiding, lying, etc.
The 60,000 question in those particular hard interpersonal situations is will the couple find a way to a situation in which for example,the liar internalizes the responsibility and does the hard work of stopping lying and waiting with some humility until her/his partner sees, from experience that the lying has stopped, and has the opportunity, for the first time, to do the work of learning to trust again? Will the projector of negativity or fear find a way to stop doing that (going past lipservice to actually dealing with his/her own negativity? And so on
It's been a hard thing to "wear" in my mind, but necessary to my attempt to live in the light of truth, to witness on this board in other people's lives that if the denier continues to deny, and the avoider of shared work continues to avoid, well that leaves the other one of the couple needing to realistically accept that, and as Melissa's site says, learn to thrive, more on his or her own. Because it takes two and it's impossible to thrive psychically yoked to a liar, or a denier, or n unloader of negativity, or of course, an abuser. : I had to learn that yes it was possible that I couldnt make my relationship by myself, and that my relationship could have limits. I also have learned in a deeper way that my relationship must be a place for both of us to thrive. It's not all about him (I thought it was, at first) Its not all about me. ( I had some hidden It Musts to throw away and I'm sure I'll find more to let go of)
I learned these things trying on your mind, folks. Bouquets to you.
Yes Chevy...you said it so well....
Submitted by c ur self on
Finding paths to healthy living; then doing the work to discipline ourselves in those areas is a must....Showing Grace and dealing with myself had and has to be number one on my list, just because of what you say at the end of your post....The Learning to thrive comment for me, is two fold....First I have to fully trust in the power and presents of the one who abides....Then I can rightly see, to make choices concerning the reality you stated; "It takes two" w/ limited fleshly prejudice....
There is a verse in Corinthians 13 that is a descriptor of what Love is..... It reads... Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things....This is where I should be, mentally, emotionally and Spiritually....This has to be the fruit of what is being produced in my life, in order for me to be equipped to deal honestly and patiently with my spouse. I must recognize the pitfalls of impatients, selfishness, and personal desire (Getting ahead of my Father) But also stay in the realm of the reality in your statement...."two must do the work"...
It's been coming to a head here for a while, really all 9 years...My desire is a peaceful life for us both, and we will never have it as husband and wife as long as her happiness is based on her present independent life style...The making of rash decisions built around selfish desires, with no thought of her responsibility in marriage.......It's a choice; and I've asked her to make it...When a person is so offended by their God given role in life, and especially in a marriage relationship. Then it's not really good to stay in it, and live your life as a victim...Maybe someday she will find a love for being a wife...But I'm just done experiencing the fall-out of what happens to a mind in denial, because of the disdain they feel for their role in life....Each day we are blessed with, is a reason to rejoice and celebrate the life giver....I refuse to bemoan the circumstances of this life....That's the goal!!!
Like the councilor told her..."poop or get off the pot"...No one can do that for any of us....
Yep...It takes two...It always has, and it always will....
C
Please provide some more info
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
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am genuinely hurt and humiliated when others criticize or make sarcastic comments about me (but not surprised anymore).
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what exactly is going on? Please give detailed examples and situations where other adults are humiliating or criticizing or being very sarcastic towards you.
it's hard to tell from your posts whether these things are just mean bullies or if these people have genuine reactions to ADD/ADHD behaviors that are negatively affecting them.
I missed this...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
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we are having a fun family and friends evening, playing games, I might blurt something embarrassing or talk too much. Generally I am not aware of my behavior becoming annoying until after the fact.
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My husband does this but it's because he's too focused on being entertaining/comedian, that he loses sight that he's over-sharing and/or saying inappropriate things. He's too happy that he has an audience and thinks it's an opportunity to be center of attention.
He's not willing to change, but since you are, I would suggest that you and your family /friends have a code phrase that they will use as soon as you're going too far or talking to much. It could be something like, "I need a Kleenex" or something that won't sound too out of place, but will signal you to "be quiet".
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Recently, we were on a college campus with our son, and I was so nervous that I kept staff members in too-long conversations.
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Yes, I think this is anxiety, nervousness, etc. My H does this, too. I've had to rescue some people a few times when he's literally has them cornered as practically hostages while he rambles on.
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I couldn't keep friendships going even though I tried (It's frustrating to have someone ask you the same questions, like "so when is your vacation again?" several times in one visit.)
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Not sure what you mean here. Why would someone be asking you several times when your vacation is?