Detatching - success tips? | ADHD and Marriage

I know that my situation is

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 13:05

I know that my situation is unusual, so take this advice for what it's worth, but I'm sure it has been a lot easier for me to detach from my ex-h because he moved out to live with his parents and he didn't communicate when he was there. Is there any way you can live apart?

I went on a trip alone this weekend for the first time in more than 30 years. It was hard. But I enjoyed it, I survived, and I've realized that I need to think of myself as single even more so than I have been doing since the separation (involuntary on my part) and the divorce (voluntary). It's difficult to be single while thinking of oneself as having a partner or even thinking of oneself as someone who used to have a partner. So try living alone or single, if you can.

Thanks Rosered! I know you

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 13:25

Thanks Rosered! I know you are 100% right. Right now though, we cannot live separately. Probably would make it a ton easier (as painful as it would be regardless). Right now he is staying here until our little dog passes. He is very very sick, and honestly its a surprise that he is even still alive as it is. I told my husband that he can stay until he died, but that I expected him to leave after that.

Few weeks later after that conversation, he asked if he could stay until March next year so he could "save money for a decent car" and "get a decent place" to live in. In other words, he wants to use me to support him until he finds something he LIKES. I am not really ok with being used any further than I already have been.

My cousin thinks that all these changes, his starting to follow through and him saying he loves me etc is to get me to want him to stay until HE is ready to leave. And once he is ready - he wont care if I want him to or not because its all about him.

My cousin is a very very smart lady....

Stacey, I forgot about your

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 13:27

Stacey, I forgot about your dog. I'm sorry you're enduring that loss, too.

Please don't let your husband stay until March!

Thank you about my little guy

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 13:47

Thank you about my little guy.... I love him so much. I have had him over 10 years. He was a blind/deaf rescue who was already old! (they estimated him at 8 years old!!!). He had heart issues, and sudden death is expected at some point. Its so hard to watch him slowly deteriorate. If he were to be in any pain, I would make sure that I ended any suffering, but thankfully while fatal, what he has isnt usually painful. That he is still here is really quite amazing. He is one heck of a resiliant little dog.

Its funny when my H said that, I told him I would have to think about it. And as a quip, I said that our dog might even still be alive until then, and maybe longer. He just kinda laughed and said yeah, that he is a surprising little guy.

Dont worry Rosered, I cant fathom being able to deal with this any longer than I have to. It would be one thing if he actually said he knew he wanted to work on things, and just is scared of dealing with the CSA etc. It would be different if he didnt threaten me to leave every time he got a paper cut. It would be different if he put his ring back on as a sign of commitment to *us* versus him just thinking about himself. So, unless those things happen and they are truly sincere (because time would tell) I cannot see myself letting him use me as a personal banker until he was "ready" and had things lined up for himself, leaving me with the mess of his abandonment. NO WAY.

I listen to my fellow spouses here like you and KNOW what that is alllll about. I set the bar low for him, and have had to lower it further and further over the years, and still its always too much. But if I try to lower the bar any further, the bar would be underground - and frankly I am worth more than bottom level stuff. I understand he has challenges and has some serious trauma to work through - but running away down the easiest path of resistance is weak and cowardly, and I am worth the effort and bravery that it would take for him to be the man he says he wants to be. I am worth PROOF. I am worth someone putting that ring on and being a man of his word. My husband is not. he is a man of his mood, not his word - and that kind of person is NOT someone to build a future with. So, to be with me - he has to prove that HE is worth even one more sacrifice on my part. Until then - I will be looking elsewhere to have my needs met.

Your cousin is right. He's

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 01:43

Your cousin is right. He's buying time....or he's worried about how he'll survive without you, so he's trying to worm his way back into your life.

<<<

I've forgotten....does he work full time and make good money? Or has he been mooching off your or been under-employed?

He has only worked MAYBE a

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 10:23

He has only worked MAYBE a total of 2 years in the 7 we have been together. Which I was OK with when the concept was that he would take care of the home, do repairs, do yardwork etc... but he didnt follow through with his part of the deal over and over, so back to work he would go for a while.

He doesnt make much money - not in comparison to me. Which I have always worried about - but he doesnt really seem to have any issues that he has said that I am the primary bread winner. Thing of it is - I would not mind him not working when he actually gets things done around the house and keeps his end of the bargain. He will do good for a week, then its all down hill. rinse. repeat. SO yeah, I guess you can say he was mooching off of me since he just never bothered to keep up his part of contribution to the home.

You know - I gave him what would have been ANY guy's dream come true in our shared hobby. I told him that when we moved back to our current state - that if he wanted, he could not work - but focus on his fighting. Get into some MMA classes, do his practice every day, and just keep the house up and work on projects as needed. That way he could concentrate at what he was really good at (his fighting hobby), work on managing his issues through counseling/treatement/meds - whatever. And he decided to chain smoke (and lie to me about it) and watch world of warcraft videos all day. This game that he said was a monkey on his back - that he would "never play again - no desire" etc... all he does is watch videos about that game every single day. Not as much now since he is working, and he also cut back some when he was doing the work around the house. But now that he has a full time job - all that "extra" time is gone.

I honestly dont know how he is going to manage all his lifestyle choice expenses when its only him footing the bill. I wont help him and his mom cant anymore (she already takes care of his daughter full time and he provides NO financial support).

He's using you...and delaying the inevitable....

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 13:02

<<<

Save money? Lol...what money? The money from his job du jour? How long will he keep it? Has he been saving? Contributing to household? Buying stuff?

Yeah - he just started

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 14:13

Yeah - he just started working, and got 1 paycheck so far. That had to go into our account and used for household bills as we had several to catch up on. I am not sure what he meant, because I dont think he actually thought anything through. If he puts all his money aside, and he is not doing the work that would be his contribution (if he wasnt working) then he isnt contributing to the house other than the 50% share of the regular daily chores. SOOOO - I have no idea. I didnt get into it because I just didnt want to deal with another argument. I need to put some thought into it as it will affect me, like it or not. I cannot insulate myself much until he is actually out. He IS continuing doing his daily chores and with out complaint (which is amazing to be honest). And he is keeping up the pleasantness.

And as for him saving. LOL... yeah, cant imagine how thats gonna go. He also wants a new computer and wants new armor and new this and that. I am not shelling out for ANY of it, and if he removes his funds from the house hold pot, then we will need to come to an arrangement of rent+bills until he leaves. I am not going to let myself be fully abused in this. I know that I am going to end up funding him in some fashion, but I can and will keep it minimal.

I also want to say that he

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 10:33

I also want to say that he has the classic symptom of buying what he WANTS before paying his needs/bills. For instance, he would buy a new monitor for his computer and then have to ask for help for the electric bill. Things like that. His mother floated him most every month with paying a bill or giving him 20 bucks so he could buy food (because instead of hitting the grocery store, he hits resturaunts or goes shopping at a gas station for food to make. VERY bad at managing his money. I am hoping that he has learned how to be better at it with living with me, but he even came up short on his rent when he was living with friends just 2 years ago when he left me. I had to help him out there. Ugh.

Omg! My H would "shop" at

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 13:06

Omg! My H would "shop" at the gas station instead of a grocery store, too. What's up with that??? Once we married, I started doing all shopping to avoid that, but he would still buy crap at gas stations at 5 times the normal price.

For H, it's about "time". He values his "off hours" to do as he pleases, so he doesn't want to spend any of that time in a grocery store. Quicker to pay a LOT more at a gas station.

H always paid his bills because there really wasn't anyone he could turn to. Once your H has no one to turn to (don't bail him out and let him know ahead of time that you won't be bailing him out), he'll have to tow the line.

Absolutely. Once he is gone,

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 14:23

Absolutely. Once he is gone, he is gone, there is no reason or need for me to float him anymore. I have done that enough for 7 years - and he can take it as he wants. I am sure he will get angry with me and think I am not a "good friend". I can see it in my head now. But it doesnt matter. The real deal is he wants a life with out me - and that means ALL of me, he doesnt get to keep my bank account and get rid of the rest of me.

Yeah, I never could understand that either - the whole gas station shopping thing! its CRAZY! He would literally go borrow 20 from his mother and hit 7-11 on the way home and get food. Sometimes he would go to the local store, but not all the time. Which is too bad because he would have been in SUCH better financial shape and probably been feeling a ton better about himself. I dont think he understands that living like that directly affects his own self esteem and faith in his own abilities. He likes to insist that he was making it before me, but the reality is he wasnt. He thinks living alone meant that he was self sustaining, and comlpetely ignores the role his mother played in his life style. She owned the house he lived in, and he didnt pay any rent. His mother is the one who supported his daughter. His major expenses were managed by someone else, and he thinks *HE* was in control and "taking care of business". It was a bit shocking and concerning when I learned all of this. Because he wasnt really upfront about it all - I only got his warped perspective, not the full real deal you know?

I am sure he can get his act together - its not like he incapable. He is brilliant, and when he puts his mind to it - an incredible worker. He is great at his job. But everything else is a disaster. I do hope he does make it, because if not - its going to be horrible for his daughter to see. I already know what to expect should the path take that turn (and granted, its the path of least resistance, so I suspect that my fears will come true) but she doesnt. She will come down and see how he lives, and I think its going to break her heart, which breaks MY heart in turn. Its such a shitty cycle. Its so amazingly selfish that he cannot see how his actions - like it or not - have impact on those around him. He has insulated himself so much and his vision is so centered on himself and his wants and needs - that ANYTHING and ANYONE ELSE just dont register at all. And if it does - he justifies the pain caused because he feels that no one should be affected by his actions and words or they are just wanting to control him. Insanity.

I hope though. I still hope that real change happens before its time for him to go. Even while I am working on the detachment. Even while I picture my life with out him. I still hope. But hope is not guiding my own actions anymore - my brain has taken over. My heart can hope all it wants, but my brain has put my heart on lockdown for bad behavior. LOL :-) My heart is DUMB DUMB DUMB - but my brain isnt. SOOO - control to the brain from here on out.

7-11 Convenience

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 15:23

It's easier....that why? If you put it that way....it's hard not to see this as being lazy. Just so you know...it's easier to stay in denial and be comfortable too. Effort and work....do seem to be missing here? This would drive me crazy!!! I have a problem with laziness but when it effects me....I have a much bigger problem about it which from his work history and then not doing things at home instead I would have a huge problem with that myself. In fact.....this was exactly the problem I ran into with my first wife. She hated work and she was extremely lazy. She did the same thing from the sound of it....and got fired from her job due to what I saw was....shirking responsibility. Once....when someone was tail gating her...she slammed the breaks on which caused that person to rear end her. I got a call from her all upset and I came home from work to see the damage. There was no intersection or reason to stop where she did...and she told me that a cop came by and told her that if he had been there to see this....he would have given her a citation (according to the story the woman behind her told the cop ). I knew of her pet peeve with tail gaters and I suspected she was lying so I asked her straight up "did you slam the breaks on because you were pissed because she was tail gating you?"

"No...there was a dog that ran across the road in front of me like I told the cop."

This was on our street mind you and I was very familiar with the road. I've never seen any dogs running loose but more to the point...it was a very straight stretch with clear visibility....her story was unlikely which I was siding with the cop on that one." Shirking responsibility was her MO in everything so her credibility was not so good in that department which I knew already.

When she got fired and went on unemployment (for 9 months) she said.."Oh...and I can work on the house, do the shopping and make meals while I'm off."

In reality...I'd come home from work and find the dishes piled up in the sink from yesterday and she hadn't lifted a finger. Nothing changed from what I saw before and she did not do anything she said she was going to do. In my opinion...the only reason for this was laziness and nothing else.

And when things started to fall apart in our relationship because of the conflicts this created....I woke up one morning and was in the shower and she comes and says "I'm leaving and I'm not coming back". Before I had a chance to wipe the soap out of my eyes...she was already in the car driving down the road. As it turned out...she had found someone new and she up and just left because....that was easier than dealing with the problems and even waiting until I was in the shower to tell me...was a lot easier than having to confront me and actually discuss anything with me which took me totally by surprise?

I was pretty distraught and for the first time ever...I called her mother who lived across the country that I had only met once when we first got married. Her mother told me that she had ran away from home when she was 16 and never returned and there was nothing she could say or do or was even given the chance. That was the first...I had ever heard of that story?

6 months later....I get a knock on my door and there she is standing there wanting to come in? When I found out that her "new guy" had thrown her out and she had no one to turn to....I said "well...I don't trust you so what do you want from me?"

That was the last time I ever spoke to her...and apparently...that was not the answer she was looking for? This just came to mind when I read this 'convenience shopping" at 7-11 and doing what is "easier".

Oh MAN J! That is just rough

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 17:01

Oh MAN J! That is just rough! What a terrible thing to do to someone! I am sorry that you had to experience that, no one should be treated so callously. It gets harder all the time to ignore those who say that my husband is using me, and HAS been using me the whole time. REALLY hard. Being used is probably one of the worst feelings in the world. I hate it when I hear about others having to go through feeling that way - it sucks.

There are moments when things ring clear and true and I feel like I can see that he has used me from the get go. And then, like today - when I was trying to reconcile some dates in my head about the last time he came back from when he left me - I find an email trail of how we used to chat all day long on emails (he was bored at work alot). They were funny, sweet, and considerate. And I think to myself - a man using me would not do that! Right? Maybe? I just dont know anymore. I think that all this living in limbo has finally just worn me down to nothing. When I take emotion out of the picture - it sure looks cold and cruel.

OH and the whole Lazy thing??

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 17:48

OH and the whole Lazy thing???? my goodness... my H brings it to a new artform. Its astounding to me actually.

I have moments were i am completely lazy too - but I also "get the job done" when its supposed to be done, and I have the work ethics to make sure that I am not selling my self or work short. By the time I am lazy - I feel I have earned it LOL. Working the hours I work - I love a lazy saturday morning!!! But I dont LIVE lazy... big difference.

My H for sure has issues with procrastination and laziness. Shockinly bad - I have never seen anyone this bad to be honest.

Stacey Read What I Wrote You

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 18:55

You had posted these last two response to me before I had finished. This lazy thing ...man that is tough and is infuriating!! I was really thinking about this because as you may or may not have heard or read....."laziness" can be misinterpreted with ADHD but here's what I see as what might be the difference?

I may be messy and I may start too many projects at once. And I may not come back and finish projects if I get to many going? But I'm "industrious to the extreme" and I always come back and finish them. If there was anything that my wife has to complain about...it's because I'm such a busy beaver...that I don't allocate enough time for her and that IS a problem that I have to be very mindful of?

But if someone were to call me lazy....the first thing I would do would laugh at them! lol The second thing I would do would take them on a tour of all that I have done...even just recently because productivity..has never been my problem. In fact....my fantasy....if I could have anything I wanted in the past? Is that I wouldn't ever need to sleep since...I'd get 1/3 more life to spend that is wasted sleeping! lol Just think...of all I could do and get done if I had 1/3 more life to work from? That would be my fantasy of getting more bang for my buck!! LOL

So the concept of laziness...is not one I can really get a handle on? New art form? LOL I think I'll skp that one:)

And thank you by the way for saying what you said about my first wife. It was a very short lived marriage and I can hardly count it as such but it was extremely painful to go through that and I ...like you....was going....how could someone do such a thing? Well....live and learn...it was my choice but also saying...there were huge red flags that I simply did not have the where for all to understand what they were saying?

Stacey...I Keep Coming Back to You

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 18:39

From the things you've said and what I am no dealing with and coming to an understanding (better ) in terms of my wife...I always keep reminding myself (first of myself ) and second....of this dissmissive/avoidant pattern. This is not to say I don't have a touch of that in me...but this is not my main pattern of attachment. If you think of avoidance....as a pattern. It's pretty easy to see in a general sense with your husband and I was thinking about this when I mentioned my first wife (long ago) who just ran away at the first sign of trouble in her life. She was a runner...for sure and that was her pattern or way to solve her problems. I was thinking about this when thinking about shirking responsibility too? What I recently brought up in our T's office was telling him there were some behaviors I had that I still could not trace to the source and I've kind of threw my hands up in trying to figure that out anymore. What I did say is what I suspected and that was that these were linger-ers from so long ago...that I lost the track or the path of where they came from so why worry about that anymore? This were things that I tend to avoid for no good reason and it's not because they are difficult of ones that I would think had to do with anything? When it got right down to it....these weren't my attachment style...these had to do with being ODD as a child but that disappeared mostly by the time I was out of high school as this tends to work. It didn't turn into conduct disorder as can happen when it enters adulthood so I pretty much discounted that as a means for anything any more?

But in my T;s office I threw that at him and he acknowledged that yes....this avoiding thing probably was so old (back to my ODD days ) that this is what is left and that's why it seems so mysterious?

The point in coming back here and even bringing this up is from what you said? On one hand you are prepared for him to leave...on the other hand your hoping for something to happen that might change things for the better. I think waiting or anticipating something different is where this avoidant / dismissive pattern comes into play. Just like with my latent lingering left over bits and pieces of ODD....long since gone behavior still has an effect on me even today....in light of "avoiding" as a pattern that is engrained into a person behavior....this is what I might anticipate and approach from that perspective? He doesn't even know why he does things but his thoughts and what he says is flavored by it and it's been that way for a long long time. So long....you forget where it comes from but the pull and the tendencies are still there?

And in respect to the video that NON included yesterday and thinking about this more....scanning for what's wrong or looking for proof of what these things will tell you....an avoidant is looking for sign or proof that something is wrong so therefore...I'm out'a here before it happens? Going back now to what I remember about my first wife too. As soon as signs are there that say...."I'm not getting what I want here....I'm leaving before you can leave me?" This is the pattern of a dismissive / avoidant which is not about conflict resolution...it's about getting away from it as soon as it appears and in respect to conflict.....:"I'm not getting what I want here...I'm out'a here". Thinking of the "tiny voice " inside telling you what to do?

And what my T said to me in his advise to me in order to counter this? "Give her what she wants" That seems to line up with that tiny voice doesn't it? If your waiting for something to happen....I think you might be waiting for a very long time? If you want something to change....you'll be the one who has to do it I'm afraid. If you are waiting for him to pursue you, I think your going to sorely disappointed if you have your hopes set on this?

This is where things get really ass backwards as well? Women tend to want to feel valued by men putting forth the initiative and doing the perusing which makes it easier to deal with this with my wife since it synchs up with the common male female roles. In theory at least (mine here based on the other theory of attachent ) you'd have to play the male role in this since he's kind of taking the more female role and waiting for you to be the one to pursue him if that makes sense?

It's just my own personal take on this...but as I have found that it's much easier for me to do all the initialing. planning and anticipating for my wife...since she is so narrowly focused on the things that "bug her"....that her field of view is pretty small sometimes? Since I stepped up and have assumed the role of the one who has to be first....my wife seems much more at ease and much more comfortable NOT having to do anything along these lines?

Our conflicts have come more from my naturally tendencies to say "live and let live and not push the issue and just let things happen on their own." In the extreme which is not good...I'm much more laze faire about everything in general. In a more healthy way....this is not always such a bad thing.

Letting a lot of things go in terms of "offenses" and "violations"...comes naturally to me which has it's positives and I don't easily get bent out of shape? On the down side...other people can easily take advantage of this and my wife tends to be on the opposite end of the spectrum. In the extreme....she can be very pushy and bossy and will tend to push and shove and pull until she gets what she wants which causes me to recoil and and step back. I really find people who are "pushy" make me very uncomfortable and "bossy" is even worse which I'm neither in respect to being demanding which is the other word I would use to describe my wife at times.

But as I have found...that being "proactive" and becoming the "initiator" and the "pursuer" and doing all this for her....it seems that this role of being the 'pushy, bossy, demanding personality...is really just the fear of not getting her needs met and scanning constantly for the signs that it won't happen. The more her "scanners" pick up me doing this.....the more at ease and the less demanding she has become which makes me extremely happy let me tell you. As it would appear to me now....she rather not be this way....but when she senses the smallest sign that she won't get what she wants....is when these behaviors that I don't like...come to full fruition? But like I said...this is more typically male and female roles already and it isn't difficult for me to pick this up and run with it? I can imagine in reverse of this....having to take on a more male dominant role for you would not be serving you what so ever and probably make you feel like a fish out of water?

I'm just speculating here and theorizing...but the proof in the pudding...is that it's working for the two of us that's all I really wanted to say in respect to you and this dissmissive / avoident pattern of behavior? I know for me....the not knowing...and not understanding things will really eat me up until I have a reasonable explanation to work from. Otherwise..I feel like I'm shooting in the dark..and hoping I hit the target and never knowing exactly what the right things to do or not do...and just waiting to see what will happen. I like to know at the very least...if my efforts will make a difference and then watch to see if what I anticipate will actually manifest itself like a science experiment? I know that sounds probably sounds very clinical but...at least I feel like I have some control of my life that way for what it's worth? What I'm not doing...just so you know...is having an open discussion about this part with my wife? I'm just applying it to my actions...and observing what happens and taking note of what works...and what doesn't work and keeping track of what works?

Its funny you mention that -

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 19:49

Its funny you mention that - the whole persuing thing. I actually DID do that for a long time, did everything I could to show him I wanted him, loved him, thought he was amazing etc. I tried to fill up the hole in his heart - never realizing that the hole was caused by CSA and isnt something that *I* can address - only he can.

Our counseler (and I agree with her) suspects that his ADHD developed from his coping mechanisms (disassociation, denial) from surviving his childhood. Its why its easy for him to be romantic and promiscuous when the "relationship" is shallow and not real. But when it comes to things being "real" he cant cope. My persuing him only makes him retreat further.

Please dont misunderstand - I am making the changes for me. I am turning my focus in on myself, taking care of myself, protecting myself - I am becoming an extremely self centered person right now. I am making sure that I eat well, exersize, plan events and activities for the holidays, reach out to friends etc. I am working on becoming the best "me" that I can possibly be. I am trying to undo the damage of the past 7 years. NONE of that is for him. NONE of that is in the hopes that it catches his eye, and inspires him to persue me. Thats not the point.

My hope is the same hope that I have had since the problems started - that he would return to that attentive, romantic, loving man that he was and said he wanted to be. I will hope that probably until the day I die - but it doesnt mean I am going to lift a finger to make that happen. If it does - its because something inside him clicks. I hope that it does - I want that man under the mask to come back out and spend his life WITH me - as an equal partner in a loving, responsible, two way relationship. I cannot make that happen - it takes 2 people to do that. I have tried everything in the books, everything from the counseler - I have done the "hard" work of trying to salvage, build, reset, love etc. Now I am doing the hard work of healing myself from the pain and hurt I have lived in for the past 7 years.

I am done with the games - I have never ever been a manipulator, that is a fools game. I have no desire to trick, convince, cajole, beg him to stay with me and love me. I am worth love, I am worth respect. If he is unable to find those two things with in himself - he cannot find those things to give to me. And I deserve better than what he has given. If he wants to stand up and give more? He will need to do so consistently and honestly - and I DO hope for that. But there is nothing I will or CAN do to make that happen.

All I can do is detach.

And I am finding that very hard to do in the current shared living situation, his current pattern of "love yous" and engaging me for conversation. It was easier to just be two people shareing a space who had nothing in common but a name. But he started changing, and he started interacting with me - not the other way around. I WANT those changes to lead to something better, but I dont BELIEVE they will - make sense? Top that off with I still believe he need to leave to get his act together - and if he wants to try and work on things while he is on his own - I might be open to that, depending on how things go here until he is gone. But he has to figure things out for himself. He wants to move out, do what he wants - have his own choices and determinations. More power too him - he has always had them here - so that control issue? That goes with him. He felt it before me - he will feel it after me - because it has NOTHING to do with me. Those issues that race through his mind about his CSA - thats going with him too - only this time he will be isolated. No doubt he will drown his sorrows in video games, and end up right where he was 10 years ago. And that is his free choice to do it. Its not what I want in my life, and I wont follow him down that rabbit hole anymore.

I want to live - I want to love freely - I want to make my dreams come true, because no one else is going to do it. The first step is to detach from someone who doesnt want me, when I still love them with my whole being.

This song so captures where I

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 20:15

This song so captures where I am at... I seriously could have taken the lyrics right out of my heart... and the video - well its magic to me. I used to want to fly like a bird ALL the time - I could watch it all day LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRyRymflxtU

The lights go out, I am all alone
All the trees outside are buried in the snow
I spend my night dancing with my own shadow
And it holds me and it never lets me go

I move slow and steady
But I feel like a waterfall
I move slow and steady
Past the ones that I used to know

My dear old friend, take me for a spin
Two wolfs in the dark running in the wind
I'm letting go but I've never felt better
Passing by all the monsters in my head

And I move slow and steady
But I feel like a waterfall
I move slow and steady
Past the ones that I used to know

And I'm never ready
'Cause I know, I know, I know
That time won't let me
Show what I want to show

I move slow and steady
But I feel like a waterfall
Yeah, I move slow and steady
Past the ones that I used to know

And I'm never ready
'Cause I know, I know, I know
That time won't let me
Show what I want to show

Detaching

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 14:36

Getting to place of understanding detachment is a work in progress for me. I think back to my early days of learning detachment as it applied to my Dad's drinking - somehow my brain had it worked out that "Liz will detach, and then Dad will see how hurt I am by my actions of staying away, and then he will. . . . . ."

Detachment is really all about ourselves. No longer picking up the slack. No longer explaining away events. No longer accepting poor behavior.

Finding the balance between using it as a tool to manipulate, versus, using it as a tool to take gentle care of yourself regardless of what the other person chooses to do is the goal.

Detachment can plant 'seeds' that can develop into change, by allowing the natural consequences of their behavior to play out in their lives.

When that is our ultimate goal, it just doesn't work.

Detachment is all about our choice, based on knowledge - not reacting to our fear, nor hope, nor anxiety. The plan is to be responsible to ourselves.

Yep, that's the plan. One of those things that reads easy and wors hard.

Very truly,

Liz

Yes...Imsoexhausted...

Submitted by Zapp10 on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 16:28

I find this very interesting because it is in a positive light and NOT solely about adhd and I am thinking....I have been doing this lately. I have been putting "no expectations" into daily life also....as positively as I can.....kind of interesting. I will not always settle but I will always consider....

Thanks for explaining it:)

Getting to place of

Submitted by vabeachgal on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 17:03

... and then he will...

I needed to read this. Healthy detachment IS difficult. I've needed to detach and take time to take care of myself - it's something I haven't done in the last 14 years of this marriage. I've been too busy keeping the wheels on the bus and worrying about why nothing I try has helped.

However, until I read this I didn't admit to myself that a little part of me was "hoping" that my H would see the detachment and moving away and take steps toward me to close the gap or make positive changes. You know, that he would connect the dots and figure out I'm detaching because I'm hurt and that he would be hurt because I'm detaching.... and choose to make changes....and decide that I am worth the effort... whew! That's some illogical logic. Detachment under those circumstances won't work very well, will it? My H has never been able to connect the logical consequences of his actions with his actions so I don't know why I unconsciously wished for something else.

I don't think that will work. As they say here in the South - "That dog won't hunt."

Liz - what a great breakdown.

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 10:58

Liz - what a great breakdown... and YES YES YES!

My detachment is totally for me - and not for the "and he will...." portion. I am looking at this as me preparing for when he is out of my life completely. I have to figure out how to make my life NOT about him and thats very very hard. For 7 years everything has been about him, his wants, his desires, his issues. I have bent, twisted and really broken myself to accommidate him and to set the bar so low in my expectations that its buried deep underground. It just cant go any lower. I realize that 90% of the issues we have are related to the CSA he experienced. However, if things are to get any better HE has to choose to work on them. I have done everything I can in providing the tools and giving him the space to do it. Maybe I could have been less pushy, maybe i could have been more patient. I dont know. I am sure I made 10000 mistakes. And when he says to me " I feel like I have no control" I have asked what it is I am doing that makes him feel that way so i can work on that - he says I am not doing anything that its all him. I believe that because of the normal issues CSA survivors experience - this is such a HUGE one and I am extremely careful that I dont control him or do anything that IS controlling. Even still though - I make a point to say there are things that I will not live with and that are unacceptable to me period. Thats not controlling him - thats controlling my own life and how it will be lived. Trying to be healthy as I can with boundries.

I think my husband is just really mixed up in his head. He is trying to bury what happened to him - but you cant. Once that shit it is out - its OUT. You cant push it all back down inside and forget again. Its one of those things that you either take control and push through it and do the work of recovery (which is hard and scary) or you give up and let it rule you and define you fate and who you are at your very core (easy because it requires no work, but completely destroys you and true happiness will never be found, and real relationships are impossible). My husband is the king of the easy path, the path of least resistance. He has already said he wants to bury it and he has already given up on counseling with his specialist because he is afraid of what he is uncovering. I dont blame him - what he went through was a nightmare. But he will never get out of that nightmare until he makes a stand and fights his own instinct to run and hide.

Whew! That turned into a whole other topic! But its what is feeding this split. The trap I fall into is hope. And I have to find a way to kill that hope inside me so that I can be ready for when the time comes that he leaves for good. Sometimes I am good at it. I keep things pleasant - but I keep a tight lock down of my heart and emotions. I dont want to be mean or rude, but I also dont like playing games or make believe.

This is a VERY tough balancing act, and I dont think I am being successfull at all, because I keep finding that hope that should not exist. Right now - its my enemy. Because its false and a liar.

Stacey......."Aikido" and the act of "Engagement"

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 13:35

I think NON brought this up a while ago along with a discussion we were having with Delphine at the time? I think you've got it 1/2 right but something is still missing on your end. I see the words "enemy", "detachment" and "hope" all tied together in what you said?

If you picture being "engaged" in a fight with your enemy...and the concept of "not chasing the Dragons tail" and turning on the enemy and becoming one with your enemy along with applying the concept of martial arts and the Art of War and engagement...what NON brought into this thinking is who's Dojo matt on you fighting on and where is this engagement taking place?

If you know anything about martial arts...the concept of taking your opponents energy and turning it back onto them in defense of yourself...I think this is a good way to see this and see what you are trying to do? If you are detaching...and not engaging....there is no fight? That's one way to avoid the problems you have for yourself right? But the problem involves your H so this does nothing to solve the problem?

If you turn and fight the Dragon....you are engaging with it head on. You intention is not to kill the Dragon but tame it like breaking a wild horse which means you have jump on it's back and "let her buck" and ride that "horse until" you break it and it comes under control. You can't do this...sitting on the fense of the corral just sitting there and watching the wild horse tear around the corral at will? You are not "attached" to the horse...until you jump on it's back ride it in order to break it? You can turn this around and look at it like every time you try...it throws you off and you become "detached" from it? But that horse still needs to be broken and now what do you do?

In the same way....you are choosing to detach to avoid being hurt....but when the horse calms down....are you "re-attaching" yourself and "re-engaging?" Nothing will ever come of this...if you don't "brush yourself off and get back on the horse and when it throws you off? The act of doing this says to the horse....your still engaged? If you just lick your wounds and go climb on the fence or do nothing...the horse will never be broken and you will never be able to ride it without getting thrown off each time?

As you mentioned this....(detaching" is something your doing for your benefit...but not his.... and that is part one in this scenario. A good thing for you to do by any way you want to look at it? Part two would be to be....to turn and fight and get back on the horse....or if he is on the offensive....you apply the idea of martial arts and take his energy and put into the ground or use that in a way to neutralize him which will not allow his energy to either hurt you...or advance on you in a offensive or aggressive way. I know I already put this video up before...but I think it speaks volumes in the idea of turning and facing the Dragon and not chasing after the Dragons tail any more. And then neutralizing the enemy by becoming one with them and putting them into the ground. It's such a poignant look at applying this concept and done in a very dramatic way. If you haven't seen the movie the Matrix...the one thing that was not fore told or predicted by the "Oracle" (the prophet ) was the Love that Trinity had for Neo and that Neo had for Trinity. That was the "wild card" so to speak that no one could predict ahead of time due to "free will". In the story...it became the one defining line between things either going one way or the other which gave Neo....a reason to summon the strength and the magic that brought him back to life to fight the Matrix or the enemy within that was in control. I love this scene...it is so inspirational!!

The enemy is within Stacey.....that's what your fighting against not your H. If you can find the courage to get back on the horse remained engaged but on your terms...you can say NO...but still remain in the game? It's your Dojo matt...not his...on your terms. That puts the control back with you but you have not disengaged (or detached) and then remained that way without re-attaching and go after it until the horse is broken. I realize that sometimes things can and will stay the same no matter what you do...but doing something on your terms instead of his...is still showing up and remaining in the game instead of sitting on the fence and just waiting and hoping? It's about pursuing and going on the offensive and turning and making a stand in an active way that will speak volumes as to what is important to you without saying a single word except NO. "NO" to what is the question here I think?

At least it's something to think about and I know this is a tough call to make? It is a tough balancing act and you do need to protect yourself but detaching and then doing nothing after that..is still saying something none the less? It shows your intention....and if doing nothing is showing your intention...then that's what is it saying?

https://youtu.be/RWS2onQlOOE

J - not sure i really follow

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Tue, 09/27/2016 - 17:34

J - not sure i really follow here?

I definitely agree the fight is with in me - my enemy is myself and my naivity and want to hope that the changes he made were for real and not just an attempt to have me let him stay until HE wants to leave. I really cant engage anymore. Its his choice to leave, and my choice to not fight him on it. Honestly - I think he is RIGHT to leave. If he cannot find it in himself to find me, and our life worth the effort it takes to meet my needs and be a responsible partner in a TWO WAY relationship - then yes. He needs to leave. Because I deserve better. I am done engaging him in attempts to help him, or to get him to be that partner I thought he was.

I feel duped. He lied to me from the get go - spoon fed me what he thought I wanted to hear, about who he really was and what he wanted. Because by the time I was moved in and wedding plans were in play - everything he said he had wanted before was a lie. He said those things to get what he wanted. And the question is - what exactly was it that he wanted? Me? Or my lifestyle? The jury is out on that one. His friends, my friends, most of my family, some of his even (to an extent of admittance) say that he was using me, at least in the beginning. The CSA issues explain so much of the behavior, but its VERY hard not to personalize things - which is probably why the most important thing I can do is NOT personalize it right?

By detaching - what I am attempting to do is stop paying attention to what he does and the decisions he makes unless i am DIRECTLY affected. These are the things I stopped doing 4 months ago when I had that whiplash realization (when he said he only wanted to be married when he was in a good mood)

I dont say anything about how much he is smoking, or watching videos (instead of getting things done),
I have zero expectations from him other than agreed upon chores.
I make no investment or input on his hobbies
I dont worry about what he wants to eat for dinner when I decide what I want
I dont ask him about his day
I dont engage in any conversation unless he initiates
I dont go to him when I find something funny to share
I dont go to him with questions about what I should do/say/whatever about anything
I dont consult with him about my hobby goals

Really - I just stopped interacting. We spoke in passing like I would with any stranger (though probably not as warmly as I would with a stranger)

Things I have fallen back into the habit of doing again because of his push to interact with me:

I have zero expectations from him other than agreed upon chores.
I now consult with him on what he wants to eat.
I DO ask him about his day,
I do engage in conversation, as does he.
I DO go to him when I find something funny to share
I do mention my hobby goals - but I dont discuss them in a manner that is open to his input if that makes sense.

Now, we act ALMOST like we used to - with even LESS intimacy/loving actions. He started making some changes 2 months ago, doing the work he promised, and even being the one to engage me in conversation. I was polite but limited in my responses, even still I am a little bit - but I find myself slipping back into sharing and talking like we used to. He has restarted telling me he loves me when he leaves and he calls me at his lunch break and tells me he loves me when he gets off the phone. I get confused because I literally have been working hard to break the ties, and he keeps acting like he used to (though lesser).

I dont know what the deal is. I dont know if he is trying to keep me on the hook until HE can decide when he leaves versus me telling him he has to leave (once the dog dies). It will be a really rude awakening for him to have to line everything up in a short amount of time and I think he knows that. I dont know if something clicked in his head that he SHOULD pull his part in this relationship - at least with the contribution to the household? I dont know if my fairly drastic change of focus from worrying about him and meeting his needs to taking care of my own - working out, eating right, gaining confidence etc has inspired him that he can take care of himself as well? He did start working out and drinking water at the same time he started working on the chores. Maybe me modeling self care made him realize that I didnt rely on him for my joy and happiness? I have NO idea how to explain any of it. But I hesitate to take any of the changes as a sign to hope that things will get better between us and that our marriage would have a chance. That is FALSE hope... I just cant allow myself to believe in it. I would need to see much more as far as changes, and they would need to be long lasting as well.

I am in a pickle barrell up to my eyeballs here. :-) But I aint afraid of crawling out of the barrel. I am not afraid of living my life alone (I have always been independent). I am very fortunate that my circumstance also means that with out him - financially I would be in a FAR better position. I own my home and car, and I have a great job - so as for logistics, I am secured. I never "needed" him for anything. I wanted him for everything.

Detachment in my house

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 10:22

it's really interesting living with my husband, on the matter of detachment.

He's detached from me in some ways other men in my life who dont have ADHD havent been detached. For example, generally, and especially when he's occupied with something, he doesnt do very many signals to me that he notices I'm around. If his mind is elsewhere, whatever I say or do is as if it didnt happen. He doesnt leap to help me if I'm in a physical tough spot like I do him. He doesnt get pissed at me for doing what I do, unless it interrupts his focus, which does irritate him, but he's a mild man, so he doesnt go off on me because I interrupted him. He's detached from our physical space, except to use it. That's not a complaint. He and I have been very explicit about our shared space, and he's told the truth about him self.

It's just me and him, I suppose, but all that lack of touch base, or taking me into account in little ways that I was accustomed to, the walking around me as if I werent there at all, when he was really in his head was, it turned out, a good lesson for me. I wouldnt transfer this to anyone else, it's just mine, a need I had to work on something in myself. Stacey, I had to let go of an old expectation and need with my husband. It was a perfectly reasonable expectation, given that so many people in my life dont interact with me with so much absence of connection with me in the little or daily ways. My need, well it is real, from my past, and oh, I needed to do more maturing in it. I had to detach from thinking that my husband ought to fulfill my need for daily small intimacies in the way that I wanted. I also had to detach from an old expectation, inappropriate to who he is, that he would observe me, know what I needed, and without me cuing him, voluntarily change from what he was doing at the moment to tend me and reassure me. That one had to go out the window.

For anyone with ADHD reading this, it may not be easy for you to observe in people when theyndomthis kind of interaction with each other but it is not selfish or irrational for someone accustomed to it because so many people do it to expect unspoken attention, and to do these small things. Many people without ADHD do these small shifts of attention and sort of shorthand cue, and continuous flow of small gestures of recognition or respect, without much effort or time investment. All of these small things said or done, all of these small volunteerings to do something on the partner's behalf, on her timetable or according to her need all keep saying "I see you. I hear you" So it's not that your partner is harassing you or being childish if the lack of these things Remember that she has her own acuity and ways. If it's all right for you to be as you are, it's equally all right for her to be as she. I have had to accept that most of these small recognitions and touches of care are now gone from my life. You might consider accepting that you could add a few for your partner. A few is not beyond your capability. My husband has found his own way to add a few to our day. For me they go a long way, and tide me over the long spells of his absorption in his own things.

. But my husband, lovely as he is, doesnt have this attention. In parts this relation cant be expected to be like a relation with someone without ADHD. I love him, so I learn to let go of some of my past ways, healthy as they have been. If I dont let go of them, there's no room for making up new ways of doing things with him

Stacey, one big difference between where you are in your relation and where I am in mine is that my husband wants to live with me, and yours sounds like he's in some kind of a hang up with himself. For you both, I'm sorry that he is. He's put himself in real danger of losing you, by what he's been running away from in himself. Some of your detachment issues are not mine, and are harder. If I were you, I think about all I could work on, with a husband who was so off into himself, is to do that work on living well that you're doing. I'd have to let him go,do what he does.

I've had to look it in the eye and understand that this relation is going to have some lonely parts in it...for me. I've lived by myself off and on for about half of my adult life, so I know what the four walls of a quiet room are about. In this relation, which I feel so lucky to be in, you ought to know him he's such a wonderful . man, I've sometimes thought that I got some prior training for part of this relation, in those times in which there was no one to talk to at home, no one to blame, no one to decoy my attention. I can live on my own. If I'm going to accept him as he is, not remembering details about me, off in his mind so often, that necessary,dealing my own needs and hopes by myself seems to be helpful. So I hear you Stacey.

You do have to accept what he does as it is. You dont have to tolerate what he does that takes advantage of you or harms you. You get to be the judge of what hurts you. You Dont have to tolerate that, and if it hurts you tmuch, you'll need to separate yourself from those actions of his, to take care of yourself. But the rest of what he does is what he does.

I'm working on that, with a husband who has ADHD and does want to be married. You have to let him be what he is and do what he does. If it's not using you or hurting you. It's such a heartbreaker because you love him so. He may love you and be all tangled up in himself. It's a heartbreaker to want him to come to you. I just dont know, I Just dont know...for me, I think that I cant make anyone want anything. And I cant make anyone do anything. It might be what from what you wrote, you might be thinking, that he's responding, maybe imitating your self care. But Stacey you will have to go on growing. No guarantee of anything, OK, but you doing that, kindly, without trying to get him to anything, since he's in such a pull away mode now, may be the best thing you can do for him right now. It's an arduous path you're on, phoenix. Keep going friend

"You Can't Always Get, What You Want......

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 11:01

......but if you try sometimes, you get what you need."

"For anyone with ADHD reading this, it may not be easy for you to observe in people when they do this kind of interaction with each other , but it is not selfish or irrational for someone accustomed to it because so many people do it to expect unspoken attention, and to do these small things..........."

I think the key word here is "observe" . I have to think back now to a different time in my life when I was younger and we all are just figuring out what we believe? If you're you're really going to do this well, I think you have to do more than just remember the times when you were growing up and just "think back" and picture what that was like? You have to kind of put yourself, and you're "mind and thinking" back to the way you really were and take away all that you know of yourself now and relive the time when you really knew very little and you were mostly just a blank piece of paper and just beginning to form your first opinion about yourself and others? This is not so easy as it sounds? I've been doing this for quite a while now and with a little practice....you can do this mostly, by taking away you're current perceptions, perspectives, opinion.... and just let your mind go blank.... and then relive that experience as if you traveled back in time. ( coming here has really sharpened this ability for me by the way. It's the only way I've found to be accurate and somewhat "unbiased" about yourself without feeding in all those thoughts you have about yourself now which might flavor you past by giving yourself more credit than is due so to speak. Reliving it...not just "remembering it" ) I think a lot of what we finally arrive at in our thinking of the way things are "suppose to be"....depends on what we feel we "need" and then apply that to what we "want". When I really think back to those times growing up and just forming my first real "opinion" so I could join in with my family (as as the youngest ) it took some dedicated effort to to do this and not sound ridiculous when trying to have a more adult conversation with people who were much older than you ( and WAY ahead of you as it seemed.... in that they've already had formed those opinions and now they're expressing them back and forth in a steady exchange. Meanwhile..... you're struggling just to have one in the first place....while they're spouting theirs in a steady stream back and forth.

For me...this was like standing on the edge of a rushing river and just trying to find a "hole" that you could just "jump" into when you got the chance! lol Mostly, I ended up just listening to these conversations...and sitting quietly and patiently waiting for someone to turn to me or ask me a question to include me in the conversation since I was kind of drawing a blank most of the time!! LOL Not being the center of attention is easy for me! LOL Along with being a good observer. I had lots of practice let me tell you! lol I did a lot of "listening" back then....and not a lot of talking. It was kind of like having a permanent box seat in a theater and you were just watching the play of your family unfold but .....your box seat was all the way in the back row....permanently and they were all up on stage. lol

But this is all you know at the time and so it's Okay? Lone-ness, loneliness, discontentedness and everything that goes with it...you learn around and get use to because this is your entire experience to date....as you are forming those first real opinions about yourself and others. It becomes what you know and the basis for everything including what you assume in others along with all the skills you learn in order to adapt to this environment. You're just trying to be included as best you can and you're just happy to be there in the first place. Kind of honored to be included with these "adult people" even though...my sisters were teenagers in high school but to me....that was "really grown up" at the time with me just entering 1rst grade? ( whoop de do )

There were so many times that I remember feeling very lonely and left out however. I was so completely "out of synch" with the rest of my family ( my two sisters were only two years apart and very close ) that everything seemed to be revolving around a family life....that I was simply not a part of since I was so far behind and I needed to "catch up ". I remember this feeling or need to "catch up really fast" just in order to be included in anything or be a part of what was going on?

If you can picture this compared to what ever you remember as your own personal experience at 6 or 7 years old....I know without question, that not everyone has had this experience or anything even close to it.....but some may have...while others might have been the oldest of all your siblings and they...definitely would probably not know this experience at all?

As I think about my oldest sister....even she has no real concept of what that experience is like because she didn't have this at that same age so why would she assume otherwise or think about this that much...to try and picture what this was like? She was in that respect...in the thick of things her entire existence and only knows what she knows from her own experience? She had her finger on the pulse of what was going on and was in the interconnected circle non stop 24/7? This way or had this kind of experience while they were growing up...even if you were an only child and had no brothers or sisters? Even that...is different....than being "alone" in a room full of people who are talking with each other and not really noticing you are there like you're kind of invisible?

I thought about this when I read what you said and I am in absolute agreement with you. But as I recalled what I just said from just my experience (which again...I don't assume that this represents the majority by any means normally )...it's one thing to be a good observer...it's another thing to know what to do with it or HOW to do it? As I recalled....I observed...and I tried really hard to "do it" but even then...there were limitations that prevented me from doing it....namely my age, maturity level, and capabilities I had at the time which kind of....stood in my way! LOL

And along with this experience mainly.....discontentedness, lone-ness and loneliness are just part of life? This is normal and you get use to it but you never really like it and that's the point? However...you get really skilled at doing it because this is your life and this is what you know? ( for me at least? ) Along with that....an attitude that says " eh....no big deal. Been there....done that. No problem. I'd like it to be different...but I can take it or leave it. You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes....you get what you need?

I am making a point here that is not all about me. I'm making the point that we all know what we know...and in the case of ADHD....it just gets applied to what you know...and everyone is different in this way? I know it's why some things come easier than others and I don't assume everyone has the same skills or the same adaptations as I do because of it? I think this is where....empathy can be tricky if you really want to do that well? It is a relative thing and it takes some work and effort for anyone to do it well I think?

"Many people without ADHD do these small shifts of attention and sort of shorthand cue, and continuous flow of small gestures of recognition or respect, without much effort or time investment."

I was thinking about this carefully and had my own thoughts in line with what you said here. Basing this on the same time table I was just talking about (in those formative years ) and leaving my own family to seek a place where I was not so lonely and feeling left out or excluded? I spent most of my time with friends and their families and there was this stark contrast that I both enjoyed and found overwhelming at times? And since I was entering this completely new situation that was both uncomfortable and really overwhelming in a good way....this continuous "flow" and these things you mentioned were all happening around me and I was still doing my thing for the most part ( sitting, listening and observing ) but now....they doing that with you and you're included and not having to jump into the stream since you're in the stream already going ....."ah...ah.....ah......YEAH! "...for the most part as you response to this. lol

And this is also what I knew and I really liked it because I was now included and I was not alone. I was connected full time and for the most part....I really liked it a lot. A lot more....than I liked being at home for sure! This was the beginning of me....getting a sense that..."something isn't quite Kosher at home....but I'm not really sure...what that is? All I know....is ....I like this....and I don't like that? Pretty much as far as that feeling goes?

This is really what I wanted to get to in saying all of this. The real limitations imposed by ADHD all by itself ...I feel...is just the ability to "shift gears rapidly in order to keep up with all of this? This is "real" .....and this is a bonifide "limitation".

But in respect to what I just said....I exposed myself to this on a regular basis and hit up against that all the time. And at the same time......I had this feeling of what I wanted and needed and I wanted to do that and fit into this....much more than I wanted to go back home and be disconnected and lonely? My desire and my needs were over riding my liabilities and you know....where there's a will....there's a way right?

I think...having does this early in those formative years...was a big reason that I don't have too much difficulty...trying to understand this or not being able to see it? This is what I learned, and experienced was use to..and so this is what I still do today. In my life...not much has changed and not much is all that different? I can be alone and disconnected....about as easy as I can be the other way ...with the caveat being....within those real limitations....I have a limited amount of time I can do this because of the effort and exertion it takes to stay in that connected stream before I have to jump back out and take a break or rest from it to recover so I can go back and jump back in the stream again and continue on? Consistently....inconsistent. I believe this is in part....why this is?

"All of these small things said or done, all of these small volunteering to do something on the partner's behalf, on her timetable or according to her need all keep saying "I see you. I hear you" So it's not that your partner is harassing you or being childish if the lack of these things Remember that she has her own acuity and ways..........."

Bottom line NowOrNever. I'm so glad you said this? In respect to what I just said....I can be either way? From just my own experience with this and how this played out ( only for me here ) I can do it....or I can take it or leave it. I can do one. Or I can do the other and I can transition pretty seamlessly between the two. I have no problem with this...nor....that I have any real problem being alone and disconnected? No problem either way? It doesn't have any real adverse effect on me to do either one...but I'm limited in one...and not the other that's all it is?

What I can't really know (since this is what I am/was use to ) is when someone who is NOT use to the disconnected and lonely part....experiences this for the first time with me and is having so much difficulty transitioning? In respect to this aspect of it....what is EASY for me.....is very difficult and possibly disoreinting...to keep transistioning and doing this ...."connect"...."disonnect"....."connect"...."disconnect"...thing, that is just a way of life for me based solely on my limitations in the one...and not in the other? Being able to do "both"...is a skill you learn....but going in reverse now.....the expectation that I can stay "connected" in the steady stream without a break to recover from it so I can jump back in to do it again....is the part on our end I think....that people look at you and go....."what the Hell is your problem??"......"What's wrong with you!!!"....."You're soooooo............" and away you go. All the ways to describe how horrible this is and how bad it is for them...to have an experience that you are not only use to ....but very skilled and fluent in doing?

This is the rub...right there IMHO.

"If it's all right for you to be as you are, it's equally all right for her to be as she."

And this is where you need to get to all said and done. IMHO....either you learn to get here...or you don't. It takes TWO to Tango as they say. You really can't Tango all by yourself very well? Either you ACCEPT THIS part....or you don't....on both sides of the fence. If this is unacceptable or unsuitable to you and it goes so against your grain to modify to just meeting in the middle for both people.....you'll fail. Simply put.

I think you summed this up perfectly...and maybe I just added into this....as possibly being the single most important goal..... and possibly the single most important place for both people to arrive at together and be happy with this new place once you get settled into it? That way....both people can be on the same page and end the strife and battling for one or the other to keep expecting or trying to ge the other one....to move all the way over to your side and is not willing to budge an inch going towards the middle?

The inability to move, to adapt and become flexible...is the only thing I feel....standing in the way? If you are so firmly rooted in your own position and cannot move without it completely disrupting your life.....you will have a hard time being with someone with ADHD...because this is what YOU HAVE TO DO in order to be happy in a relationship with them ...based (unfortunately) on these limitations...and nothing else?

And the same goes with someone with ADHD. If we can't MOVE an inch and move to the middle....the same problem, for the same reason exists? It's too much to ask (and expect ) of anyone (on either side) ....to move all the way to you.....but it's not too much to ask....for them to move to middle if your willing to do the same for them?

The only real problem here.....is you can always ask.....but are they willing or able to do it? You can't "make anyone do what they don't want to do". Simply put?

But getting past this notion...that the other person is the problem...is basically admitting that you are not willing to move...and expecting the other person to come all the way over to your side and then be happy about it. On either side? This is what I see mostly....when I read the stories here on this forum.

Unrealistic expectations...that neither person is willing or able to do....even if they want to and then wondering why you aren't happy? If you ain't mov'in.....you aren't going to be happy? When I think of what "working on yourself" really means to me....it's learning the skills to move and become flexible in order to uproot your entire house..and move it over to the lot next door! The lot next door...is two doors down from the one your partner live in and the one in the middle..is the one you live next to that is empty?

Not seeing it this way..and not understanding this if you don't is not anyones fault....but it is a failure on either side ... if you can't get your head wrapped around your thinking and approaching it this way. Bottom line.

: ) And sometimes you can get what you want

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 13:16

....going at it via a path you couldn't have imagined, awhile ago.

I enjoyed reading your post.

About those small signals in the flow of the day, that you're being seen and accepted.... It's habitual behavior, luckily.

People work out their own "code" of them between each other, or can. It can be learned. Like that "peace" word that you and your wife chose, to what was it, flag that it was time for a time out?

Being kind of a solo act for a big part of my adult life, I can get along without being smothered with signals from my husband. Which is good, because if he's in his thought flood he's not going to be signaling....or hearing the hurricane sirens going off either : ) He's come up with a few signals. They work.

Conditioned detachment, in particular

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 13:58

I am well aware that non ADHD people can condition ADHD people to shut down. But I have to talk about the one relation with ADHD in about which I know, which is mine, in which my husband with ADHD was conditioning me toward a kind of detachment that had I gone along with the conditioning, would have been bad for us both.

I really dislike jumping to the conclusion that all people with ADHD, or all non ADHD people, or all women, or all men act a certain way, based on what I'm living in only one household in the world. That kind of generalization based on very short experience of people's lives is shot full of fallacy holes, in my opinion.

So on this one I can only story tell about a certain kind of dynamic between me and my husband that, Stacey, from what you wrote, you might, but might not be struggling with in your relation. I thought about it reading some things you wrote. You'll know. If something else is going on between you and your husband, round file my whole story here. You'll know. Your life doesn't have to match mine, not at all.

There are all kinds of detachments, some healthier than others. That's something coming out in the thread. So the question is how to do the healthy detachments, and not get going doing unhealthy ones.

This has to do with a kind of detachment that, in my relationship, doesn't lead toward anything good.

Stacey, You listed some things that you used to try to communicate with your husband about, or be involved with him about, but he didn't want to interact with you over. Two were telling him what you cared about regarding your hobbies, and being involved with him regarding an ongoing health matter that he has, maybe it was smoking.

So you let go, and quit trying to do things to encourage him to handle his health issue, and quit trying to tell him your thoughts and feelings about your hobbies. ....and your letting go of trying to engage with him on these shared parts of life....seemed like it may have shifted him into gear to start saying nice things to you again and soliciting your interaction on some things on the list that you said you had dropped trying to interact with him on.

I'm not surprised. It's a reasonable bet that he noticed the absence of you reaching out to him and in some way is reacting to that. You'll figure out how to handle that. Like you say, if all he's doing is trying to get you back into the pattern where you were trying to reach out to him and he was backing away, that's not going to do you any good.

---

I did think about conditioning, when I read your post...

My home example is not on your list. I've brought it up periodically, since I've been on the site, because it's a serious issue to me, one that I hadn't figured out what to do about. I think my husband doesn't know the impact on me of repeatedly shutting me down when I start to talk about something; or of raising his voice when he's frustrated.

When he's doing it, it looks to me like he's entirely in his own head, and not at a moment of awareness of impact of what he's doing.

Ditto some of the physical things he does: he's in his own moment when he does them, and doesn't see the impact of what he does with his hands or feet sometimes. Just one physical example: he has such a habit of placing an open, fluid filled container, right at the edge of a shelf or ledge. Right at the edge. It could be anything, a bottle of eyewash, a bottle of bleach, a bottle of something flammatory. Right at the edge. I don't know what it's about. I do think that he doesn't see the whole that includes bottle-liquid-3' drop-hard surface-someone walking-by-could-knock it off-mess

So yes, I do allow for where his attention is at the moment, and it misses taking observation a step or two forward, to see probable result. I think that's just him. As I've said elsewhere, he's got a razor sharp mind, when it's focused on something, he's spent a lifetime of using it, he's deeply trained in doing kinds of mental work. So woo, I'm not saying that the man is "slow" when that bottle is teetering there by the passageway so narrow that it's likely that someone will brush by it. But the attention on things he says or does does not look forward a step or two on down the probablilty line, to predict impact. This I understand to be a feature of his ADHD side of who he is. I don't take it to be mean or being a slacker, in the least.

Where I'm going here, is that I think being with someone, anyone, whether or not ADHD is involved, and my husband does have ADHD and very persistently for his own reasons does things that likely WILL have a negative impact on someone nearby, ends up by the very insistence on and consistency of their refusal, not showing up, overriding or blocking communication, and so on, condition the receiving family member/s to avoid having to go through the thing, again, again, again, with him (or her). My husband doesn't do avoidance behaviors. What he does with me that I'm talking about is that he shuts down my speech.

No show, talking over, blocking or refusing to participate in difficult conversations, and other behaviors that drive toward stopping whatever the other person has initiated by way of communication, ends up extinguishing the other person trying to connect; either that, or ends up conditioning the family member into going the other way, into codependently doubling up efforts and trying to become a control freak who fixes all things and gets authoritarian about bottles full of inflammatory liquid teetering on the edge of a shelf, and turning the spouse's interruption into a gunbattle, by raising the ante back.

Someone persistently being shut down (or disappeared on, or left holding the bag to clean up a mess, or gaslighted, or ) in communication is put into a crux, after the shut down (or whatever the active or passive blocking of the communication is) happens over and over again.

If you're blocked or left holding the bag over and over and over again, the crux is tht have to go one way or the other, either into force and control response; or into detachment (of an unhealthy kind for me and for us), just letting go. This kind of detachment is giving up.

I mean really giving up, not "I don't want to talk about it now." Giving up. The way my personality is put together in these later years of my life, I go a very long time before I give up. But when I do, I'm gone and I don't try again. It's over. There's no going back, after I've cut the cord. This is not the kind of healthy detachment a relationship needs. I dont' roll back the clock. I know this about myself. My husband hasn't seen it in action in me. It's a death knell to relationship, if I'm gone.

I love my husband. I do NOT want to get to the point of giving up, because I've seen something has not changed, and likely won't. There's detachment. And there's completely standing down.

If it were me, not you, in your relationship, the very consistency of your husband's avoidance, withdrawal would be to me a heavy conditioner to pull away from the pain of being denied or withdrawn on again. Conditioned toward giving up. It's called negative reinforcement. It's conditioning extinction of a behavior of trying to communicate and share.

I found that my husband's not fully self aware, but very consistent pattern of interrupting me, seconds after I opened my mouth, blocking what I was going to say, plus his not fully self aware but persistent pattern of raising his voice when he went into lability over frustration, were starting to condition me to withdraw from him. Sure daily life goes on, but I quit bringing things to him. Just talk less. Who wants to be interrupted like that? I've got some pride; it doesn't feel good to know that I have a perfectly good mind, and I do, I can match him and sometimes raise him in thinking, and to be talked over until I was silent. Who wants to even try to talk? Who wants to be yelled at, because he lost something, I asked him whether he had checked somewhere, he was frustrated and so he yelled. Why tolerate yelling? I KNOW that I dont have to live in a situation in which I'm yelled at. We either do these interactions differently or I get away from him. None of these are tis/tisn't moments when we are disagreeing with each other, which can be peppy, and we do have those. These are moments when he's not locked into his work or his own pleasures. Nobody is holding forth. I'm not stepping on his lines and I haven't interrupted him. I start a topic and I can't even get the first clause out and he blocks with his own speech talking about what he wants to talk about.

This business of rejection or non-response, or in my case getting shut down over and over and OVER again by my husband's interruption when I start to speak also conditions a kind of detachment that is not like seeing that your husband has no plan to address his health need, and absolutely does not welcome your help about it, and accepting that.

This second, conditioned kind of disconnecting I don't think is good for me. I have to say clearly that although my husband does this cutting me off very consistently...to the point that it looks to me like something like a reflexive habit, I became convinced, and even more convinced after the conversation I'm going to tell you that my husband really and truly has all along been unaware of the vigor of his habit, or even when he was doing it...he was in his head, you see.

Again, Stacey, I recognize our difference. that my husband wants relation with me, while it's so sorrowful to say, yours is all tangled up with himself about what he wants.

But even in my case, with a husband who I know wants to be with me and to learn to have this relation, he was (I'm sure because he was mind flooding or like a jackrabbit off in his head when the first words of the topic triggered his thinking) conditioning me, or if you like, I was susceptible to the conditioning of his persistent shutting me down, into going silent on him and giving up trying to share who I was with him.

He and I just had a serious talk about this, that I initiated, when he shut me down AGAIN.

I told him I didn't think he saw the impact on me of what he was doing.

He said it was mysterious to him what was going on when I would go silent, when he thought he was talking just fine about a topic.

I said I didn't think he heard himself interrrupt me but that there was a very, very consistent pattern of me starting a new topic during what is a non work part of the day, me getting the first half of the first sentence out, and him vigorously stopping my first sentence and going where he wants with the first piece of the first sentence and starting to monologue, and that it had been going on for years. That's not an exaggeration.

And it's not that I haven't been patiently telling hm for years, let me finish my sentence.

He hadn't noticed, Stacey. He said, well it's a mystery why you go silent. I dont' think he was covering his tail. I think he hadn't noticed himself interrupting. He apparently, and I'm not being condescending, hadn't retained my years of requests to let me finish my first sentence.

He said, but I was talking about your topic.

I said, no you weren't and you don't when you do this. You start talking about YOUR topic. You have no idea what topic I'm bringing up or what I want to say about it because I haven't said it. YOUR topic is always a perfectly good topic, and we can get to it, but no you DONT know what I was going to say about my thought because you block me before I get even the beginning of it, in ONE sentence out. Because my first words trigger your thinking about a topic does NOT guarantee that you know what I was thinking or going to say. And you're wrong about that 95% of the time. (That's not an exaggeration by the way.)

He said, well I talk this way with everyone.

I said, no you don't.

I've taken a long time watching us with this, this has been going on for years and I am present when you talk with other people. You listen to them all the way through. You don't interrupt them. You wait until they finish their sentences, and then you respond.

I said I have no idea why you habitually interrupt me, blocking me telling you anything about a topic I'm bring up, but you don't them.

I told him, I don't think you're a jerk, you're not doing it because of that. (I said that several times, and gladly because he's not a jerk, I don't think he is a jerk, I don't when he interrupts me, but he will tend to go uber defensive if anything that might sound to him like a criticism is said. )

So if we were going to really have this conversation he had to hear that I was not picking on him. It has taken me literally years with him for him to tend to believe that I'm telling him the truth about myself in these situations. Stacey this is after years of being kneejerk interrupted as I'm broaching a topic. I'm not a shrinking violet, with over tender feelings here. It's been really astonishing. He's done this to me in front of people. People around us have told him not to interrupt me, to wait for me to finish. And he doesn't hear himself do it, or expect impact.

But this time, instead of saying let me finish, I talked about the whole pattern and its consistency.

I said, X, you're so consistent in interrupting me that it's shutting me down. I'm getting conditioned by the consistency of your interruptions not to bring you news, not to tell you what I'm thinking, not to try to have a conversation with you, not to be around you.

I said, I don't know why you do this but you do it to me, and not to others.

I've tried two or three different things, when you cut me off when I start talking, but none of them have worked and I'm near giving up, and just letting it go, not try to talk with you at all. Let you go. Not look for sharing talk with you.

He didn't want that. Nor do I.

And since he hadn't seen himself doing this incredibly consistent thing to me (despite years of my naming it and asking hm to let me finish my first sentence), he didn't know what to do with me at that point in the conversation.

I said, I know you're not a jerk. But I don't know what to do, now. It's been years of this and I'm starting to shut down, not want to be around you or to tell you what I'm thinking. I said, As far as I can tell, I have to go one of two directions here. I can either

a) do what you're conditioning me to do with your interruptions, and give up trying to talk with you, about anything other than what you want to talk about, but not expect that even then you'll let me speak my thoughts.

b) Or I can push on when you interrupt me and insist on getting said what I started to say.

Give me advice. Which should I do? He said, "Push on and insist on getting said what you were starting to say."

....OK end of story of our house. Stacey, just speaking about us, there were years that we couldn't have this convesation. He started the marriage so expecting hostility to come his way, if it looked to him like he had done something wrong or someone thought so, that we had no way to have this kind of talk. He'd go on high alert, thinking I was attacking him. So at first I couldn't even tell him I was having a problem of my own. He couldn't even stand that. At the under the surface level, he thought everything that went wrong was something that someone was saying he had screwed up doing something on. I have colossal sympathy for that, and we had to work at that level for quite awhile. He needed to be around me enough for him to relax and know that just because I had entered a family relation with him didn't mean I was going to go hostile on him, or that he would screw up. He needed to discover his own way that I was friendly, as well as I loved him. I couldn't do that for him. He had to work it out with himself, how I don't know how he did this, that I habitually told the truth as best I could at the moment.

So we HAD to get a platform of trust between us, before I could tackle this thing of him shutting me down all the time. He had to believe that I wasn't after him;that is to have done his own work with himself, coming to trust me.

In the meantime, he WAS conditioning me to detach from him and not try to share my thoughts with him. I could feel the tug of the conditioning. In an unmarried life, I would have said this is not worth it.

So to end this one, there's a kind of conditioning that partners who refuse, avoid, attack, interrupt, non comply, are doing to their partners, and it's real. The two options are not pretty. It's hard not to be conditioned by a very regular pattern of attempted shut down or avoidance. That's not the kind of letting go that I want to be practicing in my relationship. Sigh, that means that sooner or later, I do have to tackle the negative-reinforcement behavior in the pattern, that pushes the other person toward avoidance. Believe me, he's not the source of all our relationship difficulty when we have it. Takes two to tango. This one, however, had to do with his very vigorous, persistent habit of shutting me down when I was bringing him my own news or thoughts.

...I do think, since I'm the one struggling with giving up talking to him, that the solution comes out of me. I frankly think he's going to thought flood for the rest of his life, and under that enthusiasm, will miss some social cues and I'll be interrupted more. What we have to figure out how to do he and I is to keep me in the conversation.

"THIS"?????? What is "THIS"???????

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 13:36

"me getting the first half of the first sentence out, and him vigorously stopping my first sentence and going where he wants with the first piece of the first sentence and starting to monologue, and that it had been going on for years. That's not an exaggeration."

A variation on the same thing...but it is the same thing. My wife won't monolog...but she will grab hold of a word....in 1/2 of the first sentence of me trying to tell her anything about me..... or my day....... or relate to something about myself...or a story of something that just happened .....and she'll grab that and run with it by interrupting me and cutting me off...and now, the conversation goes where ever she takes it?

I would patiently wait until she finished..and then try and pick up right where I left off to try and continue to tell her what ever I was trying to say? And she would do it again immediately in the next sentence or two.....and I haven't even got to the punch line of the story or..... just something simple that requires possibly 5 sentences to say?

So in essence....you've got one topic..and one thing you are trying to say...start to finish...and she will introject.....10 different unrelated topics into it...and by the time you finally finish this one train of thought... and just this ONE thing in this completely disjointed manner...the context...the relationship and the meaning gets totally lost...... within just this one topic or thing you wanted to say? Every one of those 10 different topics that got introduced (or introjected ) ...appear to be just associations to the one word in the sentence..... and then off they go on a complete tangent completely unrelated to anything...."YOU WERE ABOUT TO SAY ".....before you actually said......"WHAT YOU WERE ABOUT TO SAY"....which appears to be like "mind reading"....but is completely "wrong" and has nothing to do with what you were..."ABOUT TO SAY?"

At the end of this arduous, painstaking and very frustrating process of trying to say anything.....I mean ANYTHING......without this very specific type of interrupting....done in this very specific and consistent way.....what you have to say...never gets said or heard and in the very essence of this.......never gets said....OR.....heard? And of course....never gets acknowledged...OR.....responded to directly in any kind of exchange?

And yes....this is "not inconsistent".....this is a "consistent pattern"...but only with me? I see her talk and exchange ideas and listen to other people just fine.....but not with me. She only does this with me...but I did witness something once that I thought was really interesting? You might find this interesting too?

One time, with two of her friends who she had over for the weekend....all four of us were sitting together and just hanging out together? One of her freinds got a little tipsy...and was starting to carry on and on and not give up the floor. I was not invested in any of this really...so myself and her other friend just kind of got push out of the conversation and were just listening to the two of them talk? When her friend ...who kept carrying on and on and wouldn't give up the floor.....my wife got really antsy and kept trying to introject but couldn't but now she's with 4 people in the room and I'm not saying anything? My wife...finally couldn't contain herself anymore...and started doing that "Arnold Horshack" thing with her hand up, waving it in the air going..."Oh...Oh....Oh....Oh.....OH "and got really aggressive in doing this? LOL I thought she was going to blurt out...."Mista Kotta......" when she finally was able to get a word in edgewise? It was just a very unusual thing to witness...with four friends just hanging out and talking together? lol

"He hadn't noticed, Stacey. He said, well it's a mystery why you go silent. I dont' think he was covering his tail. I think he hadn't noticed himself interrupting. He apparently, and I'm not being condescending, hadn't retained my years of requests to let me finish my first sentence.

He said, but I was talking about your topic.

No...this is not an exaggeration in any way. It's exactly the same pattern...exactly. And I in turn...will shut up and become really quiet (while my heart is racing and I'm trying to calm down from being cut off and "blocked" from saying anything sometimes? It's exactly what it feels like....being "blocked". If I try and "push" past this.....my wife shuts down and accuses me of doing something which usually makes no sense what so ever in context to this "phenomenon". That's all I can call this because it is.....highly unusual...and is not the "norm" by any means with anyone I am normally in contact with?

Her excuses or rationalizations go more like this .." well.....this is what people do in a back and forth exchange" No they don't.

"Well...if YOU didn't monolog so much and take so long saying things....then I'd be able to follow you." No you don't. I can monolog...but I know when I do it. This happens...in the first sentence just like you said. I haven't had a chance to monolog yet even if I was going to? In fact...I made a dedicated effort to reduce what I say to just a few sentence...and she will still do this particular "thing" that is separate from anything I do no matter what or how I do it. No no no. This has nothing to do with me or anything I'm doing despite any problems or issues I have in "speaking" and she will do this anyway....despite how I do it. I can try and talk about something 1,000 different ways...and she will still do this..... so this is not about me in any way shape or form and she cannot use me or anyone else as an excuse. Period. I do not take anything she says about me in respect to any protest or complaints I've had when she does this onto myself in any way shape or form either....that's the most important part I think in order not to be conditioned by it? Recognize exactly and clearly...this has nothing to do with you. This is ALL about them when they do this.

It's almost absurd...it is so ridiculously obvious? When you've only said 5 words of a sentence ...at the beginning of any topic at hand...and haven't even finished even the FIRST sentence into what you are ABOUT to say, how could anyone know...what you are about to say...in order to respond or say anything back in a response to what you said? "What are you, a magician? You know the rest of it without hearing it? That would be ...."impossible"? Which it is impossible....which is why it's so obvious? You know what you were going to say....they don't?

I can't tell you HOW many times....I said these words...."That has nothing to do....with what I was about to say" 1,000 times? 10,000 times? I've lost count...but I stopped saying that too..because it was obvious to me that this was not getting through or stopping this from happening?

And when I brought this up with our therapist in the room at the same time...he asked "if she....responding correctly to what you said...or incorrectly to what you were saying when she interrupted you?" INCORRECTLY!!! ALWAYS!!! This was while my wife was sitting there...listening to him say this?

Which was a really interesting moment for me. I know in the past...I use to interrupt people being impulsive and just finishing their sentences or responding before they finished? It was the first symptom I got a handle on...and stopped doing a long time ago? But in respect to what I remember and if I slip and might do this on a rare occasion....I am actually finishing the sentence "correctly"...and prematurely responding..."correctly". That's the difference which was why when he asked this...it made me take note of this and really wonder what "this" is?

My mother use to do this...and my T called it "tangental thinking". So this is more a "thinking thing"....not just "impulsive interrupting" out of impatience or not being able to wait? I was and am the latter ( if I interrupt at all )...and my wife appears to be the former? Even though...if I'm not paying attention or am not hearing things (I actual have a hearing loss slightly so I do actual...here or don't hear words correctly sometimes) or when I'm reading...I'll glance over and miss things on occasion which is just another issue or related issue but not this one to be sure?

This is a very specific thing..for a very specific reason and it is consistent and extremely frustrating since you really don't get to say what you want to say...and you don't ever get heard or acknowledged? If there is a chance that I did this on some level in the past..or was not aware of this before.....having this experience now...at this present time.....has the same effect on me...as it does you or anyone else. Even having ADHD myself....I experience this....exactly the same as you do and it has exactly the same effect on me when my wife does this with me. I am no different in that respect.....on the receiving end ot it and I can see it, feel it...and understand it....exactly the same as you?

And my wife...simply cannot....even when you try and get her to see it? And yes...it pushes you away and you just shut down and shut up...because of how it makes you feel when it happens. Dismissed.

Tangental Thinking....This is "This" (is "this")

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 14:37

I just looked this up again to refresh my understanding of this now. NON-sequential logic....OMG yes!!!

Is it further to New York...or by plane? (??????????)

http://www.learningdifferences.com/online_courses/course_100/pdf_files_1...

While I'm At It......Circumstantial Thinking and Speech

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 15:06

In fairness to my wife....this is what she has to put up with at times but I have been working on this for quite a while since this was brought to my attention a while ago by my T. Long posts and / or monolog ? Circumstantial speech and thinking patterns. Detours in the road...but you do finally get there and don't get lost! That would be me. lol

Circumstantial speech (also referred to as circumstantiality) is the result of a non-linear thought pattern and occurs when the focus of a conversation drifts, but often comes back to the point.[1] In circumstantiality, unnecessary details and irrelevant remarks cause a delay in getting to the point.[2] If someone exhibits circumstantial speech during a conversation, they will often "talk the long way around" to their point, which can be seen in contrast to linear speech, which is direct, succinct, and to the point. (double yes lol )

Circumstantial speech is more direct than tangential speech in which the speaker wanders and drifts and usually never returns to the original topic, and is far less severe than logorrhea.[3] A helpful metaphor is traveling to a destination. If someone is thinking and speaking linearly, then they will go directly to the point. Circumstantial speech is more like taking unnecessary detours, but the speaker eventually arrives at the intended destination. (yes lol )

In tangential speech, the speaker simply gets lost along the way, never returning to the original topic of conversation. With logorrhea, which is closer to word salad, it may not even be clear that the speaker had a particular idea or point in the first place( huh? lol )

Thank you for your story!

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 15:14

Thank you for your story! There is some things about that that are familiar to me. My husband doesnt interupt though - he is more of someone who acts annoyed if I try to open conversation with him. He sighs, rolls his eyes, and generally shows displeasure in me attempting to interact with him. Which in turn frustrates me and makes me feel like I have to become defensive - even when the conversation was benign or just a question I had about something. he seems to get really frustrated with me when I cannot hear him - but he has a problem mumbling replies when we ARE speaking. Another really strange thing - he has conversations in his head. Like, he will insist he had spoken to me - when he had not at all. And I dont mean that he said something from across the room or from another location in the home - what I mean is we can be sitting on the couch, silently reading or watching TV or something, and he will become irritated with me because I dont respond or have any memory of "what he just told me". I think he truely THINKS he told me whatever, but the reality is - he didnt. He also thinks he responds to me when I ask something to engage him in conversation - but its only in his head. I can literally be staring at his face waiting for a response and he will get angry with me that I didnt "hear" him.... but he didnt even open his mouth!

He also has a problem making assumptions about my feelings on things - and acts on those assumptions with out EVER asking me my thoughts.

In fact, he rarely asks me about my thoughts/opinions on ANYTHING at all. The other day though, he asked me my thoughts on something - and I was so surprised I almost could not answer. It was really nice though - to be "counted". One of the biggest problems we have had that has made me unhappy was not having that consideration of my thoughts and feelings. When he doesnt *show* that he cares about my thoughts and opinions - I have to assume that its not relevant to him. And if my thoughts and opinions are not relevant to my husband - how important can I be to him? That was a struggle I had for years until we go the ADHD diagnosis - and then when we found the root of all of it - the CSA issues. Its not something that upset me after we understood WHY that was happening, and when he was activly working with me to compromise - me letting go of they hurt and misunderstanding caused by his actions, and him working on altering his behavior and patterns to show me that I am relevant to him. It was a pretty significant change, and coming from that perspective really was helpful.

Honestly - I dont think we have hardly ANY problems of the significance that I see here. The issue we have is him and his constant threats of leaving. With out that- I could see us very successfully working together on BOTH our issues. But with him wanting to retreat, but still have the best of me and what I can offer, giving nothing in return until HE determins the best time for HIM to leave - I cannot plan for that potential future of success with him.

If You're Not Happy = He's Not Happy (vise versa )

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 13:16

"Copernicus was the first to suggest that the earth revolves around the sun, and not vice versa."

Synonyms: conversely, contrariwise, inversely.

3. Reverse brainstorming.

“Instead of asking, “How do I solve or prevent this problem?” ask, “How could I possibly cause the problem?”
Instead of asking “How do I achieve these results?” ask, “How could I possibly achieve the opposite effect?”
How to Use the Tool:

Clearly identify the problem or challenge, and write it down.

Reverse the problem or challenge by asking:
“How could I possibly cause the problem?”, or
“How could I possibly achieve the opposite effect?”.

Brainstorm the reverse problem to generate reverse solution ideas. Allow the brainstorm ideas to flow freely. Do not reject anything at this stage.

Once you have brainstormed all the ideas to solve the reverse problem, now reverse these into solution ideas for the original problem or challenge

----------------------------------------------------------------

Detour ˈdēto͝or/

1.a long or roundabout route taken to "avoid something....... or.......... to visit somewhere along the way." (and you going away from something, or are you going towards something? negative....or .......positive?)

An alternative route for use by traffic when..... " the usual road is temporarily closed." ( temporary, or permanently? denial or acceptance?)

synonyms:diversion ( denial ) circuitous route (ADHD) indirect route ( limitations ) scenic route; ( enjoy the ride :)

"A Bull with a Ring in His Nose"

The Ring: bypass; digression ( denial / regression, going backwards in motion) , deviation ( not so good ), shortcut (the easy route and fastest route )

(take the Ring out and what have you got)

"the detour will add another twenty minutes to the trip" "It doesn't matter how long it takes go get there....as long as you get there? In the meantime, you might as well enjoy the scenery and enjoy the ride. It's all about the journey...not about the destination once you get there until you're there."

You Can't Get There.....from Here?

1.take a long or roundabout route.

"he detoured around the walls" (the ring again: denial, avoidance, non acceptance, not wanting to look at what you don't want to accept? )

Evaluate these solution ideas. Can you see a potential solution? Can you see attributes of a potential solution?” via MindTools

"Honestly - I don't think we have hardly ANY problems of the significance that I see here. The issue we have is him and his constant threats of leaving. With out that- I could see us very successfully working together on BOTH our issues. But with him wanting to retreat, but still have the best of me and what I can offer, giving nothing in return until HE determines the best time for HIM to leave - I cannot plan for that potential future of success with him."

Stacey. The last thing I want to do, is pick on you and say that you are wrong. (there, that was succinct and to the point! lol ) So you see...I can be succinct and to the point if I want to but it does take some effort on my end to do it?

I am so Thankful to NowOrNever if I haven't said this before....for bringing to my attention a few things that she saw as a possibility, in all these things I write and how I see things. One of them (actually two of them ) had to do with introspection and "paradoxical thinking" or the "paradoxical mind". These were two qualities I have...that I was not aware of speaking in those terms and they can be...either a good thing...or a bad thing.......positive or negative....depending on the circumstances?

I never understood for example? Why I read magazines and many times glance through books.....going backwards starting at the end and going backwards to the beginning? (non fiction literature especially magazines searching for content ) And I never understood where all this deductive reasoning came from? I've been this was since I was a child and I had no idea why or where that comes from? Reasoning by deduction...speaking in those terms....is exactly what this reverse brain storming is all about? And no one taught me or told me how to do this....I just did it on my own and I'm now beginning to see and understand why? Thinking in opposites and reversing things to figure them out going backwards from the problem...and then forwards again...and using "critical thinking" to problem solve is something no one taught me how to do directly but it is what I do automatically and it is how my brain works?

You said your H is brilliant sometimes in work and in things he puts his mind to...and this as I see it...is a quality that seems to go along with the higher than average IQ that keeps getting reported along with having ADHD? I've never really been all that focused or given this that much thought because I have no need to. I know what I know...and I proven this enough times to myself to know I'm not stupid and that's really all I ever cared about and I've proven it enough times to myself...to own that and know it's true? The other thing about this as I understand this for myself...is IQ and being smart...is pretty irrelevant when it comes to the areas of emotions and feelings. Having a high IQ does nothing, when it comes to the realm of emotions and feelings and this has everything to do with ADHD....the two sides of the brain.....delays in processing ...and making connections. When it comes to emotional matters...and then trying to make logical connections to those feelings and sorting this part out.....I really personally believe (based solely on myself and using no other means to say this other than apply what I've learned in through experience, what I've been taught, and what I been told, and then researching, searching, and discovery for myself the proofs and the evidence to verify what "I think" and therefore...substantiate what I believe is "true". I'm all about truth and what is real....not what I assume, think, or believe....without factual proof of hard facts of evidence.

Hypthothsis......are just idea's.

Theory....are substantiated ideas based on facts of evidence that cannot be proven....absolutely.

Truth....or "Fact"....are universally accepted proofs or laws that are verified, as never changing facts of evidence..that cannot be "disproved" or "cannot be denied" by any other means available.

A "belief"...is just that. What ever you believe is true. You need no proof, or facts of evidence...to believe anything and mostly...it's just based on what you "feel' is "true"...and what you "feel" is true is based on emotions....not logic or facts of evidence? If you're happy...you will believe things differently...than when you're sad? I don't need to prove this to anyone...I know it's true but I forget that when I'm sad? Everything is "bad" because I feel "bad" sometimes? When I'm happy....the same circumstances and the same things I felt bad about...will change and I will feel "good" about those same things now..... once I'm happy? Either negative...or ...positively....depending on my mood and how I feel? No one needs to tell me this or prove this to me...because I already know this is true. I know it from experience and nothing else and no one can tell me differently because this is what I believe based on myself and no one else?

But cognitively....I may know something is good....and still feel bad about it? And that's when you start getting into the realm of "Ambivalence" and that is what really hurts? Cognitively...."not knowing"...and having two...incongruent feelings that are in an inverse relationship with each other...makes it difficult to feel anything but hurt .....and not knowing "why" you feel the way you do...and not knowing "what" to do......along with the uncertainty....and indecision...have everything to do with this I think? It's what you "think cognitively" (what you are aware of ) is the means to figure this out and find your answers and get the resolution you need to stop the ambivalence and stop being on the fence..."stuck."

All those detours and hard right turns that happen with denial.....is really denial of what is "true" or the "truth". And if the "truth"...hurts to much....you will deny it as real? The "truth" does hurt...and there is no denying that.....but getting use to that temporary pain you feel from the "truth"...is worth a lifetime of pain and suffering by denying it and that's a fact Jack! lol You cannot deny the "truth"...you can only "lie" to hide from it?

And the "BIG LIE" as I call it....is the "lie" you tell yourself...to yourself. All other "lies"...that we tell other people and the ones others hear....come from the "Big Lie" that we tell ourselves sometimes and those are just mistakes or errors in judgment (based on all of these things) and mostly....they're just a personal opinion anyway...even if we don't always say them that way as if....they are factual and true and can be proven without a shadow of a doubt. This isn't a crime...but it is a sin.

Which makes us all "sinners" because to "sin"....is to be human. This is where I personally believe...that religion truly, badly, horribly does more harm than good sometimes and is looking at this issue in a very simple minded way.

Simple minded ie:having or showing very little intelligence or judgment. Or in other words.....lack of common sense or just being ignorant? Common sense...has nothing to do with IQ and more to do with common sense when you get right down to it? Denial of common sense in my view...is not being intelligent and that right there is the crux of the problem with religion and religious beliefs. They deny ( or is denial of ) common sense and good judgment in that they deny or defy good common sense and throw that in the toilet? Common....as in.....applies to everyone and everyone can agree on it....as in...."the truth." If you think about the "audience"...as in...."know thy audience"....and ""know thy audiences "intelligence" level (at the time the Bible was written ) in context.....what you had was a whole lot of ignorance...and not a lot of common sense....ie: some funny ideas about things and some ridiculous solutions to the problems they had? Yet....they were no less "intelligent" that we are potentially....but they were missing a lot lot of common sense and hey were ignorant as Hell! lol

The dumbest person on earth right this very minute.....would be a genius compared to the smartest person on earth back then in the common sense department. Just believing what they "think" (or thought?) in context to the time....is no reason to believe this putting it that way?

When I looked up the "defnition of "sin"....here's the religious take on the word:

SIN

intransitive verb

Simple Definition of sin ( by simple minded people IMHO ...I do apologize if this offends anyone...but it is the truth of what I feel is true )

: to do something that is considered wrong according to religious or moral law : to commit a sin

This is very negative and a negative way of seeing things. There is nothing "good" about being "wrong" is there? Right, wrong, black, white.....simple minded (ignorant) and not very intelligent. I think this definition ..is the "root cause" of negativity and poor judgment and lack of common sense right here. That is....based on what we NOW know...in context. Not what "they knew".....2,000 years ago?

A better definition of Sin and the one I subscribe to is: to go against your conscience and betraying yourself in the process. Who cares what anyone else thinks here....you've got bigger problems to worry about than worrying about what others think of you? We are not children after all?

Stacey....what I just shared with you...is me being me. This is how I think....and this would be an example of me....monolog if I was doing this in person which I normally refrain from and keep these things to myself. I'm not in the habit of doing this "live" and "in person"....because normally....I will lose my audience...and generally speaking....no one "normally"....wants to here this shit! LOL

But I am doing this for a reason here...to just demonstrate the long way around to getting to something so I can say it to you and you know (now)....I I think and why I'm saying it to you? The way my brain works and the way I see things...is neither right or wrong. The way I do it..and the way I arrive at things....is simply the way I do it? But that has nothing to do with the fact....that I might have something good to say as long as you can hear it? Mostly....that's the problem I run into with other people...it's not about what I'm saying or the content itself....it's how I say it...and the way arrive at my conclusions?

As my wife has accused me of.."you make everything so complicated" And my reply to her would be..." I " didn't make it complicated....."IT" IS.....complicated!!! I didn't make anything here....it is, what it is!!!!" LOL What it is...my brother! ( or sista )" lol

You said " Honestly - I don't think we have hardly ANY problems of the significance that I see here."

Here's the deal Stacy. This "thing" my wife does is first off.....on a problem for me. My wife doesn't have a problem with this and that's my problem not hers as she see's it. Actually she doesn't see it but that's besides the point. The point is....I'm the one who doesn't like it because it infuriates me. Me...it's al about me I tell you! "I"...as in "me"....have a negative reaction to this "thing" my wife does. At the same time....this isn't a problem for my wife and it really doesn't infuriate her like it does me right?

"They say I have a drinking problem but I'm not seeing it? I drink, I fall down, I get back up.....no problem?"

So...the problem isn't him saying he is going to leave. That's your personal problem with him doing that...but the problem is his denial and avoiding the consequences of the truth because the "truth" is so painful. All those negative experiences he's had and those negative thoughts that are still in there ruminating around are from the horrible things that happened to him in the past and they are too painful to look at and deal with? His first knee jerk reaction and answer to anything that "recreates those feelings again" are going to tied and associated with these unresolved negative thoughts that are plaguing him and causing all those detours and hard right turns (tangential thinking) and getting lost in his head I think? Nothing is resolved...and the way he's found to not feel bad...is to avoid what ever makes him feel bad and run from it by going away from "IT". "IT" here...is not you, so you don't have to take "IT" personally? I know you do...the same as I have...but me coming to terms with "my problem" with this is what I had to do? And a mans gotta do...what a man's gotta do? Turning and fighting the Dragon head on....was me fighting...not my wife....but her denial and seeing it that way instead. I had to go through 1,000 fights with my wife over this and be consistent in how I did it. I was fighting the Dragon...and meeting the Dragon head on....and getting back on the horse each time it threw me....to go at it again. I can be relentless and very stubborn in my resolve sometimes.... but done for the right reason....it's not always a bad thing. I am very strong willed and very strong minded sometimes...and if I have a goal and I want it bad enough....I'm not one to give up and back down from a fight. It is not my nature to shut down and give up.... and since my nature is strong and if I believe in something strongly enough....no one is going to beat me and that's a fact Jack! lol You'll have to kill me to stop me and that's just part of who I am sometimes! Actually.....persistence when not gone bad to being stubborn is really a good quality to have as long as it's not hurting me or anyone else which is when it can turn into stubbornness. (that would fall in line with sin and betraying myself in the process? ) It takes strength and courage to be persistent with my wife's demons....but if I want to be with my wife....I have to be willing to fight and the act of fighting for her and our relationship...is exactly what did the job I think? This "thing" that my wife does...or has done in the past.....she is not doing as much anymore and I recognize it for what it is? It's my problem only in that.....her problem becomes my problem so what am I going to do about it? Give up...or fight? I am a fighter...once my normal avenue of "freezing" and doing nothing....doesn't work anymore? I'm normally a flight animal...but "freezing" and doing nothing...is my Knee jerk reaction as the norm and not running away? All of this....has to do with conflict and conflict resolution? If your H's MO when in conflict...is to run....then this is what he is thinking about and what his mind is telling him to do? So if that's the problem here for him....what are you going to do about it? Fight or flight (or freeze and do nothing? ) If he's waiting for you to do something (unconsiously) and your pointing the finger at him leaving as your problem.....then that's telling that unconscious voice in his head....exactly what it wants to hear which gives him the green light to run and go ahead and leave?

So it that's the case Stacey ( if this is true? )....what do you need to change yourself.....what is possible for you to do here? What is in your control and you have the power to do anything about this? What are YOU going to DO about this? You can make him do anything...but what you do...will determine what he does indirectly...by association to what is wrong in his past and all the unresolved conflict and negative feelings he has about himself which is causing this? Anything that you site....to him....in a negative judge mental way to trigger his shame....is exactly what you should not do?

This "tangential thinking" I just looked up....said this is all about "triggers". From the sound of it...it is a "trigger" based phenomenon, which is why you are walking on egg shells which I understand clearly. Booby traps, trip wires and unforeseen invisible triggers is what this is all about? You can't really predict these things completely but you can learned to stay clear of them? But at the end of the day and what I did when I just got fed up.....Getting fed up for me is not a place your going to get me to budge very quickly (that strong will and being kind of strong minded) is when flight and freeze turns to fight but fighting the wrong thing in the past was trying to fight the person instead of the Dragon. It's her damn Dragon....why should I walk on eggshells and tip toe around it? (excuse me for a moment here lol ) FUCK THAT SHIT!! I'm not tippy toeing around my on damn house and I'm certainly not afraid of fighting? Fear in that respect...has never really been a problem when it comes time and stand up and being counted. This is not waiting to be counted or getting permission here mind you....this is forcing the issue and calling a spade a spade? But in terms of this issue my wife has.....ignoring it for the most part...and moving past it and not letting it affect me has proven to be the best course of action? If my wife gets to that place where she starts kicking the dog....I tell her "QUIT Kick kicking the dog GOD DAMN IT"...and leaving it at that? Taking the battle to you opponent if fighting is the only option...is taking the battle to their house and calling a spade a spade?

This is not something that anyone could tell me how to do? There is no rule book or manual that can tell you how to do it? This just comes from within you..and either you have it or you don't.....but you can get it by doing it....and learning from your mistakes and not repeating them again.

This is the part...that I know...that my wife doesn't? There is a right way...and a wrong way to do this...but knowing the right way...has more to do with knowing who or what your fighting against first....and then applying to the right thing for the right reason at the end of the day. Once you have that part right....it doesn't really matter how you do it I think. Just showing up and and fighting the good fight...is all you really need to do?

But the key word here is "doing". You can only do what you can do...but if you aren't doing that...then your doing it it wrong?

"The issue we have is him and his constant threats of leaving." "We" don't have an issue.....you do, so what are you going to do about it?

On your behalf and in the same way I so much appreciate what NowOrNever did by simply pointing out what she saw....based on what she knows? With that being my intention...and to point out something I see in myself...and now I see it here with you and this is by means to give you something ....to simply think about? That's all?

J - Oh I love your posts - I

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 14:02

J - Oh I love your posts - I really do - but sometimes I just am unable to follow very well :-).

I get what you are saying - when I use the term "we" its because I consider us still in a relationship. And if he has a problem I do and vice versa. Of course- he clearly doesnt see it that way, he doesnt see *me* at all. But thats besides the point.

I *think* I agree with you - in that this is my issue not his, and my solution to my issue is to quit engaging in the same behavior I have engaged in for 7 years. He doesnt want me to be his squire to fight his dragon? Ok, I wont be his squire. He wants to leave our marriage to feel like he is in control? By all means - walk right on out that door. I will not fight him, I will not stop him. I will accept that he will do what he wants to do. And frankly - I am no longer going to base my plans around him and what he may or may not do. I am working like mad to disengage in every way that I can, and maintain a "civil" (as he called his reason for being loving to me - you know - because being civil includes future plans like trips, goals, etc that are years away - tricking me into thinking we are working towards that future when he is just working towards the door).

I am working hard on not letting his consistant exclusion of me in his "circle" hurt me anymore ... I mean, I am just his wife - not important like his friends. I can accept that and move on and apply that same care and importance on HIM that he does to me. It works good enough for him to walk away and not give me a second thought, then it ought to work well enough for me too - let him walk away and me not give him a second thought.

I am doing my very best to avoid his social media so that it can be rubbed into my face the attention he provides to others while essentially blacking me out (see my other post on this thread).

I am doing my best to not let his action or inaction affect me enough to make me alter my own intentions/action or let his actions/inactions hurt my feelings, anger me etc. I am trying to focus only on *my* stuff, and being happy about *my* actions/inactions etc.

Doing that sounds GREAT on paper, not so much in real life though. I really need to work harder on the whole not letting my feelings be affected by what he is doing. I really feel like I need to find a way to insulate myself so that I dont care what he does or says - find a way to not let any of his "stuff" bother me.

For instance, I have done pretty well in ignoring social media. I have stopped making the effort to pay any attention to what he is doing there (so dumb right? LOL) . But today when I looked on FB, he had shared something *I* posted a few years back, and tagged everyone involved except me. That really ticked me off. I guess he figured it bothered me because he called me later in response to another post I made about how nice it was that someone shares something like that and ignores my part in it. He said that FB automatically tagged the others. Which I call BS - because its never done that for me. And I cant see how it ended up tagging anyone else. I dont know if what he is saying is true or not. But really - it doesnt matter because the problem isnt the dumb FB post... its something much deeper, and I have to find my way out of the hole that it belongs in. Make sense?

LOL I am not even a "social media" person. He lives it. I participate to an extent - mostly to network animal rescue. And I hate that something so trivial and stupid bothered me - but I KNOW that it wasnt the action it self - it was the disreguard and exclusion that has gone on for YEARS that is the problem. When he called to tell me that he didnt mean for that to happen - I told him that it was fine, not a big deal and that the reason it bothered me is because that while he might exclude me and ignore me in social media as he has for years - it pissed me right off when he shared MY stuff and didnt include me. He said he understands where the frustration came from. I guess I can give him a gold star for that - he knows, but he wont do anything about it. He knew a long time ago when he first blackballed me and I called him out. Didnt do much then either.

SO - my goal right now is to stop caring. Because, its trivial. Its dumb, and its not "real life". I dont want to get caught up in childlish crap like "you didnt like my post" crap - you know? For me its just a symptom of a deeper, painful issue that I have to resolve- so I need to focus on the REAL problem, and not the trivial symptoms.

That real problem is me - just like you said J. I am the issue here, not him. He has the whole detachment thing down pat like a pro. I dont think he ever WAS attached to me.

Your analogy of "getting back up on the horse... well - to me I dont see him as the horse that needs to be engaged. he isnt even in that picture for me anymore. That horse is my own emotional isolation that I need to get a handle on.

The love part

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 14:53

Hi, Stacey

As I've been reading you today,.a sentence by a Frenchman named Blaise Pascal kept going through my mind. The French have turned it into a kind of motto.e

Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait pas

The heart has its way of reasoning about which reason has no knowledge.

It's so hard to be bonded to someone by love and have to let go.

I'm sorry you went through that hit of pain over what he did on social media. How confusing that he did that while simultaneously being upbeat with you.

Wish I could take some of your pain away.

Thanks Now! I really like

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 15:46

Thanks Now! I really like that motto... it sure is appropriate. My heart for sure knows no reason. In fact - I liked it so much I posted to.... yep! SOCIAL MEDIA LOL. I could not resist...

I guess the the light of everything else, this is just really a dumb thing to be upset about. I am almost as upset with my self that I am upset at all. Soon enough, all this "death by paper cuts" will be over and I will not ever allow this to happen again. I am better than this. I just need to remember that.

You know - I read posts here, and I wish that all of our pain would go away. Its so hard to be tied to someone like this - someone who doesnt care, doesnt want to care. Doest bother them the hurt they cause. Its exhausting. Thanks so much for your support Now - serously. It helps me a ton. Feel alot less alone. <3

Stacey....I Can't Give You My Expereince

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 15:58

...and mostly....I speaking from it and that's why this is difficult to do? Probably why it's difficult to follow but as I was reading this whole FB story and the social media thing....it reminded me of exactly where I was in my past with my ex wife...(not the one who left me and came back)..I hardly consider that a marriage since it was so short lived. Only on paper as you mentioned that...on paper...is not the same as real life?

But my ex....as in a woman who I loved deeply and we were married and together for over 12 years....got to this same place and things just stale mated and never ended up getting resolved? It's when I first met my T and found out only later (after we got divorced ) that I had ADHD so I was completely in the dark....compared to what I know now?

But I remember my T....doing a really good job of bringing me to the place where you are now....but in respect to having the experience I have now.....I made a fatal error or mistake in my thinking? This is not me telling you what to do....it's what I saw that I did wrong...if I had to go back and do it all over again? From my experience and this is a real time example of what I thought....back then that I regret?

My wife and I had evolved into this co-dependent type situation where no one is going anywhere and all hope seemed lost? What NON was saying....now I'm thinking about this.....is the type of attachment you have...and the conditioning (and the conditioned responses) that get programmed into your thinking and behavior over time. This is the part of unraveling this co-dependent enmeshed feeling that really sucks and it is an awful way to live. I hear you clearly and I know what this is like? In fact....the reason why I am so adamant with my wife sometimes in the things she does (or wants or thinks or tries to get me to do by any means possible )...is her....unknowingly and unconsciously....trying to condition me into the trap and me going.....uh ah!! No way....I not doing that again!!

In a very real way....she is or has attempted....to invite the same dysfunction she had in her past....right into the front door with open arms and is not understanding that what does not feel comfortable.....is exactly what she should od. And of course...what feels comfortable and what she knows....is exactly what she does?

And me being here....seeing the signs on the wall and one of this is this "we" kind of co-dependent thinking...that happens like the boiling frog who's already boiled before he realizes it's too late? The only reason I know what....not to do....is from being boiled once already. LOL

It's very difficult to try and explain this to someone...let alone tell anyone else how not to un-boil yourself once you're already there? At least with my wife now....have not let that happen and most of what I've said that I have done or am doing...has to do with keeping myself out of hot water so to speak? And for the most part....I've done a pretty good job of doing that for myself....for my sake....not necessarily my wife?

And the reason I say...not necessarily my wife...has to do with her trying to move me or get out relationship into this co-dependent one from her past which feels comfortable to her (the opposite of where she should be going ) so that goes without saying....(for the sake of argument) if I'm trying to steer us in the right direction.....not only is she not liking this....she will be diametrically opposed to going that way because it doesn't feel right to her....even if it's the wrong what to go? In essence.....something or someone needs to turn her around and face her the opposite direction and because...as she see's it.....I'm the one preventing her from going this way.....I'm the worst person to tell her what to do?

Telling her...or talking to her about this...or even trying to explain this to her.....will do nothing to turn her around and about face and go the opposite direction even IF.....I am absolutely right and I'm absolutely "correct" in every single thing I might say? She isn't going to believe me because I'm the one doing this to her right? Wrong. I'm not doing anything...but trying not get enmeshed into all her problems and take those on as my problems and where this gets all tangled up and confusing? And of course.... I'm almost the last person who she is going to believe or defer to....and thinking about this FB thing and the social media....there's plenty of folks out there....who will take your side in anything if you only tell your side of the story...and site everything that is wrong with the other person? There are plenty of victims out there to jump on your band wagon...and there is no shortage of people who are in the exact same place as you are? It's almost like going to a bar and sitting there getting drunk....with a room full of alcoholics who are giving you advise on how to solve your drinking problems while getting drunk together at the same time. LOL Probably not the best source of information and they all will certainly....back you up and as long as your buying the next round? LOL

I do not do Face Book...I do not do Twitter....I do not listen to talk radio or social media.....NOT!!!!!! I don't want that in my head and all that goes with it and mostly....I really don't enjoy chatting...or chit chat....and not having conversations with no real content? Seriously. I went on twitter once just to see what this was all about and what I saw went something like this (paraphrasing )...........

"Well....I had oatmeal this morning....but it was a little runny. I think I put too much water in it...but it was good. Then I had a really good poop...and that was good too. It's all good. I think....later.....I will go to the park to see Jane run. Run Jane run. I like Jane...she runs really fast!!!....It's all good." LOL

This is just too much information to add to what is already there..... more than I can already handle!! LOL Positive....but just too much info? TMI LOL It's all good! LOL

But like you said....there is something there for everyone if that's what you are looking for and there's nothing wrong with that but I just don't have any need to do it? I feel connected enough by doing that other ways but I have in the past...doe one thing that I found interesting?

In college....a friend of mine had a radio music program on the college station...and I use to visit him and we would "critique" music and I found that really fun. But at the same time....being a "critic" is really a negative thing and when I went on YouTube and started reading the comments being made...I couldn't help myself but to join in and become a "critic" once again? After doing that for a while...I realized just how negative this was and how that was only serving to keep myself in that negative frame of mind which was serving that...more than anything else? That and a lot of passive aggressive behavior on top of it? Sometimes if done creatively....it can be amusing but getting into flame wars or outwitting your opponent with trollers is just you trolling along with them? And it really is just a form of venting and doing it that way for the most part so why even do it? Within reason I guess as long as you don't get carried away with it?

But going back to the time with my ex when I was unraveling all of this with my T.....he brought me to this same place and I remember me doing something in my thinking when he was trying to get me to separate myself (or detach ) from what was co-dependent and not good....but going to the extreme in the other direction which is just going too far in the right way and saying...."I can do anything I want and my ex can just take it or leave it? " That was me.....going in the right direction....but doing it in the wrong way? It did serve to detach and separate myself from what wasn't good for me ....but I was neglecting ( or had not come to the place ) of considering her part and how she felt about this? What I was doing...was acting unilaterally...with more concern about how I felt...and less to do with anything good for our relationship? My goal was all about me and my own self protection which is not bad.....but there was another step in the process I needed to take in my thinking that I never got a chance to do since my ex wife....caled it quits and pulled the plug before that could happen? She had her part to play...but I'm just saying my part and where I had not considered the effect of this on my ex wife at the time? In the end....she didn't want to and I could not make her do anything she didn't want and part of what she didn't want to do....was her end of the bargain. What felt comfortable to her....was where she wanted to stay and I was moving forward and away from her in that way...and she did not want to join me? But saying....I didn't give her a lot of reason to join me...with the attitude that said......"I don't care....I'm doing it anyway whether you like it or not?" I think my attitude pretty much sucked and this is what my ex wife was seeing? It was only because I had more work to do and more working on getting to the next step and me just having one foot dragging behind me and still in denial and not having any experience yet to know exactly what I should do or not do?

In the reality of our situation now.....I am engaged and connected to my wife...and I am not doing things that say I'm not interested or not willing and I'm not just doing my own thing...with no regards to her. Her constant need for reassurance along with all the accusations and inuendo are tough to deal with...but looking past that as just her insecurity and not allowing that to flavor how I am with her....I am for the most part....very forgiving with her...and very allowing which is sometimes hard to do in light of what she does sometimes? Not taking thing personally,...is the best thing you can possibly do. Along with not just going off and abandoning what you really believe in along with your H when he does things to hurt you. Not being hurt...in the first place....allow me to be who I want to be with my wife....even if she's not being who I want to be with sometimes? Staying on course...and not letting my wife derail me in her efforts in going the wrong direction...is me just going the right direction...and not letting her pull or push me into the wrong one and still being who I am and being a good partner to her even if..."she says I'm not....because I won't go co-dependent with her? Once you're already there....it a lot harder to undo the frog once it's already boiled? If that makes more sense and why following me...might be just me....not following you and where you are here? Most likely the case I'm thinking but ....take what you can and leave the rest. You can always come back later .....and just file it under......"when I get there" if that's what works for you? It all good. LOL

Before I Forget....Stacey

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 17:08

That thing you mentioned somewhere? About your H talking to you and then getting irritated with you? This tangential speech pattern my wife has.....a lot of the time...sounds like someone just talking to themselves? I sometimes talk to myself out loud...but I don't expect anyone hearing me to have any idea what I'm saying? I might be talking to the job I'm working on...or cussing out my tools that are not working the way I want them to? What ever?

But my wife will be talking away sometimes and I'm listening to her and waiting for her to make a point or something I can respond to and in the back ground....I'm listening and waiting...and then she'll go....."well...it's be nice if you respond or acknowledge that you heard me?" Where I'm still waiting for her to finish....thinking that this is going somewhere...but she's done. and now she wants me to respond? But she really has said anything other than this kind of mental short hand...the same as when I talk to myself? And she be kind of incensed that I didn't respond to her?

And when this really gets bad...is when she's in the other room doing this..and all I can make out is what sounds like the teacher in those Charlie Brown cartoons which sounds more like."....wah whah....whah whah whah....whah whahh whah whah whah....."....and then she'll go....."well did you hear anything I said??" Kind of annoyed but now loud enough that I can actually hear that part? I've told her repeatedly...my hearing is not that good...and if you're going to talk to me at all...it has to be while you are in the same room at the time!!! LOL She has a really bad habit of talking while she's in the other room and assumes your listening? In my case.....assuming I can even hear her would be a good place to start? LOL

But even just last night for example...she did this with me when I grabbed the remote and put on a show we both watch. So now...the show is on and were watching it right? And I've still got the remote in my hand? And she said....."hey....don't we have this recorded on dvr?"

"Yes" (pause)

"Well?"

"Well...what?"

"Well...we've got this recorded on dvr so we can watch these that way and skip through and watch what ever we want?" (( it's series of may episodes that we've seen before but we were on a regular live channel at the time? )

( pause ....waiting? )

"Well...it'd be nice if you acknowledged me...did you hear me?"

"Oh....I'm sorry...I thought I did....Yes I hear you....we've got these all recorded so we can skip through and find the ones we like...isn't that what you said?"

(pause waiting?? )

"Well.....if we go there instead of watching this one that I don't want to watch...we can skip through all the commercials and not have to watch those"

"OH!! I see....you want me to go to the recorded ones and not watch this one because of the commercials....I get it"

That thing you were saying where your H...thinks he said something but didn't? There you go? This happens all the time. She wants me to do something or wants something....but doesn't say what that is? Like her saying..."don't we have these recorded"...and expects that I will get from that....that this is not the episode she wants to watch plus....she doesn't want to watch the commercials?"

"I don't want to watch this one...and since I don't like the commercials....can we go to the ones we have recorded and pick one from there?"

This is what she wants and doesn't want....but that's not the question she asked me but expects that somehow (by magic? ) I can read her mind is annoyed that A) I can't mind read and B) I didn't figure this out for her?

Just let it go. It doesn't mean anything? I just said "sure"...and we changed the channel. No big deal.

J - Oh boy does that

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 17:42

J - Oh boy does that conversation sound pretty familiar to me! :-)

Here is how things go in my house generally (though I can honestly say in the past 2 months he has made some major changes in how he talks to me).

Me - "hey, would you like to watch the new show on TV tonight?"
Him - no response, not looking at me - sitting 2 feet away from me on the couch.
Me- "hey X, what do you think about watching the new show on TV tonight?"
Him - "I said yes!" in a short, annoyed way
Me - "Im sorry, but you didnt say anything you didnt even look at me...???"
Him - "yes I did you must not have heard me."
Me - give up, move on because the same conversation will happen again in an hour.

I know that for my husband he disassociates - he truly goes "somewhere else" and I really believe that in the other place he is at - he thinks has responded to me, not realizing its all in his head.

Things like that can be annoying, but they are not life ending, and in the grand scheme of things - very small offenses that can be worked with, and can be explained by abnormal wiring caused by CSA trauma. I have no problem working with him on ANY Of his ADHD issues, CSA issues, depression issues etc....

Its not that I am letting him derail me - what are my options other than letting him walk out the door? I cannot control him - nor do I want to. I dont want to spend my life with someone who doesnt want to spend their life with me. I get it that CSA causes warped thinking, and ADHD causes ...warped interactive behavior. I am accepting of BOTH reasons for the issues we face. But the end of it is - He is leaving, there is nothing I can, could or WOULD do to stop him - other than being myself and becoming the best, healthy me I can be. It might be very selfish of me to put his needs aside, but after 7 years of twisting myself into a pretzel and burying MY needs - its time for some self centeredness on my part. Believe me - if he wanted to truly commit and quite threatening me with leaving (to get what he wants) - I would work with him and put my all in to being that squire to his knight. I already HAVE - but I will not sacrifice one more bit of myself for someone who threatens me ever again.

LOL You Are So Right

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 18:30

" I get it that CSA causes warped thinking, and ADHD causes ...warped interactive behavior. "

ADHD...doesn't cause thinking.....in terms of denial and the dissociation from abuse and all the defense mechanisms that are there to help you (actually)....that become a way of life and a way of not solving any problems? If you are just in a permanent mode of self protection and insulating yourself from you emotions.....you're just cutting yourself off from the rest of the world and shooting yourself in the foot but.....you have to have someone help you undo this and if he's not helping himself or willing to go through this....you can't do this for him and get him to do it. I think mostly what is warped...is not being able to communicate your needs and wants and be able to "speak" those in a way that other people can understand?

Without the ability to communicate what your needs are....no one will know that for you? I can imagine...the frustration and feelings of isolation from living in the prison inside yourself that this would create for you. It would be devastating to live that way all the time? But for you....you have a life to live to and you do deserve to be happy.

The one "tool" my T gave me long ago...which is more of a goal to shoot for. As he said it "you should always be able to walk away...from any situation no mater where you are or who you are with." This isn't you planing, preparing and getting ready to leave (in a general sense ) it's state of mind that says that you're worth more than you're getting or that you really do deserve more (not in an entitled way ) but in a fundamental way that says you do not deserve to be abused and you do deserve to be happy and not have others try and stand in your way or prevent that from happening?

"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.....our unalienable rights as human beings." You deserve that much.....no mater where you go or who you are with and you don't need permission from anyone to have them or go where you need to to find them if they aren't there already? The goal...in that tool my T gave me...is simply saying this as the state of mind you should have always.....what you do with it whether you stay or leave....is up to you?

You always have a choice...in other words...and you are free to choose:)

Yeah - I know what you mean.

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 19:47

Yeah - I know what you mean. I could not imagine what it is like for my husband who has NO understanding or connection with his own feelings. Its like he lives in a fog when it comes to that stuff - in penetrable. I am the opposite - I am pretty straight forward and am not shy when it comes to explaining what I want and need. And fortunately - I dont have a "high maintenence" mentality or we would not have gotten THIS far. LOL I agree with you - everyone has to have the ability to be able to walk away when there is harm being done. But I also think that people are too quick to walk away when things just get hard. Things for me have been hard from the get go - its like right from the start, we have been battling his demons. I certainly know I played a part in this - I handled things badly in the start because I had NO idea how to deal with the gaslighting, the withdrawal - I thought he just didnt love me. But he always SAID he did - even when his actions tripped him up. He gave me enough to keep me from completely bailing on him. And I am a stickler about my word - if I say I will stick with someone - I do and will until it becomes abusive to continue. C brought up Alexithyma - and I think he was spot on for that. It describes my husband to a T. I think the ADHD is accurate for describing the behaviors (this is a hard diagnosis we have along with depression) and then *I* think he has all of the symptomology of Alexithymia. I believe (as does our counselor) that while he may have had some slight tendencies for ADHD - the CSA threw him over the boundries of normal, and the ADHD developed as a direct result of the warped life he suffered. Basically that what ADHD issues he might have had naturally were enhanced significantly by what happened to him and what he had to do to survive and cope. It breaks my heart really. I cannot fathom it as it didnt happen to me. All I can do is be there for him if and when he needs me - so thats kind of the mentality I have taken. I was ok with putting my needs on the backburner while we worked on what HE needed right now. Really - I am perfectly fine with it. But to work for 7 years towards a goal of unification and a whole/responsible/loving marriage only to be told that he doesnt want that anymore after EVERYTHING we have been through... well that was enough for me. That old saying about people telling you who they are - believe them. All I can do is believe him that its what he wants. He may not act like it - his actions and words never lined up (hence me having no idea how to respond like EVER). Funny enough - I have no problem walking away from people at all. I have no problem walking away from my husband either. I love him with everything I got - and I know it is going to hurt even more than I hurt right now - but I will not allow myself to be controlled and threatened. If he is unhappy with things - I am no longer willing to jump through the hoops to keep him from leaving. I am living an authentic to ME life now - and I will not pretend for him anymore. He has issues, I have issues. I will only address my issues honestly, and I will only address his issues honestly. If he doesnt want to - he has his own choices to make. According to him - he "decided a long time ago that we would never work out". He has said this many times through our relationship. And then he acts on that "decision". Then he changes his mind and "decided a long time ago that you are my future, you are my life" and wants us to promise eachother that we wont run away and threaten leaving when we have a crisis. Sadly - for the past 5 years we have had crisis after crisis... so I have lived this cycle over and over. He has controlled me for too long. While my choice and decision is NOT for him to leave - my decision is to accept his choice, plan accordingly, protect myself and withdraw emotionally so that I do not fall completely apart when he does finally walk out the door for the last time. You are right - I deserve better, and the man inside my husband deserves more than what the mask he wears gives him. Very very sad. Going about all that is where I have my hiccups! Hard to detach emotionally from someone who is STILL HERE and basically acting like we always have (with slightly less affection.... lol which is hard to imagine there could have been LESS... but here we are!)

The Amazing Thing...Stacey

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 09/30/2016 - 19:39

Is just how accurate the descriptions, or constellations of behaviors that fit the profile with Attachment Theory. This was a really facilitating thing for me to really immerse myself in it...in order to try and figure myself out. It really took a while to start to notice all the ways I've fit my particular brand of insecure attachment ( anxious preoccupied ) and really focus of the .,not so good qualities and work through them and reduce them down to the state I'm in now. I know when it's working...when I don't feel insecure? It is truly amazing how accurate this really is. And now....doing it again or at least....getting to know the avoidant / dismissive brand that is so apparent now with my wife. The only reason I'm so interested or invested in this...is simply from all the work I had to do on myself...so now, I'm already that far into this so it's not so difficult to spot these symptoms in my wife which for me (from my own understanding of it for myself ).....I can apply what I see and what I know with my wife as well. I know....this doesn't speak to everyone and I'm not pushing this as a means to help anyone else but I can share some things that sound oh so familiar....and give you my two bits on this and how I'm approaching it?

What you said here really hit the mark...According to him - he "decided a long time ago that we would never work out". He has said this many times through our relationship. And then he acts on that "decision". Then he changes his mind and "decided a long time ago that you are my future, you are my life" and wants us to promise eachother that we wont run away and threaten leaving when we have a crisis. Sadly - for the past 5 years we have had crisis after crisis... so I have lived this cycle over and over."

If you were to go and look up the language and the most common things to say......this is text book.....right out of the book? Just from memory here...." I knew you weren't the right one for me." "I'm not sure I ever really Loved you." "I'm leaving!!"" But then vacillates and goes back and forth. Push....pull.......push......pull..........that cycle. "I Love you......I don't think I Love you"....."she loves me...she loves me not....she loves me...she loves me not!!! " LOL It's exasperating!! LOL

And as it describes this....the strategy is to leave first....before the other can hurt you? At least that's the little "avoidance" voice....talking in their ears?

And of course....what's the cure for an insecure attachment? Work on ....not being insecure!! LOL Literally!! LOL That's just it Stacey....all that work you were doing to try and be with him ( having to work so hard )...is appeasing that little voice...and proving that your not going to leave? But of course....the little voice is saying..."when is she leaving???....I think she's going to leave me????......." But who's the one threatening to leave?? It's crazy?? And the statistics say....they are apt to be the one's to leave but I have discovered something about this that might work in your favor.

Since I kind of got over my insecurities in this way....I am a lot mor confident and self assured than I was before? NOT being insecure....makes my wife more insecure but that's just that voice needing some validation and feeling like...."well...if he's insecure...then I'm safe?" Wrong. If I was insecure now with my wife....we'd both be co-dependent and out insecurities would be working off each other in a co-dependent dance of insecurity and that is no fun....AT ALL!!! lol It's horrible.....that's all I can say about that.

But my wife has been threatening to leave for so long now...that I've said...it has as much affect on me now...as hearing the dogs bark at someone walking down the side walk. When my wife gets into the "critical zone" of her cycle...she'll have a blow out which she usually was able to bait me into a fight with her...so she could go...." I'm leaving!!!". (again ) But then she never does and usually very shortly after she does this...she comes back and says she's not leaving after all? It's the same cycle every time but now....I am aware of it and notice this much more clearly based on the "style" of insecure attachment she has. I've familiarized myself with this so much....that I just see the pattern repeating itself and it's not such a mystery to me and I don't allow it to effect me nearly as much as it did before. Plus....I'm on to her bating me into a fight for this very reason and I'm doing my best...not to go there and for the most part.....I'm getting pretty good at not taking the bait.

What I wanted to say to you Stacey...with some hope and optimism? You H is not my wife...but the pattern is the same? From the sound of it....he's just going down his normal rabbit holes and you're so use to following him....now that you're not....this just upped the ante on his insecurity because you aren't becoming insecure yourself and working harder to keep him there? What you have to realize about this and I know this part by heart. It's not on purpose and in fact....he is almost assuredly not even aware of his own pattern? But from the pattern...is where NON was saying you got conditioned...and subconsciously (and not intentionally ) that little voice inside him has been paying attention to what you do? He can't see his part....but he can see yours? If you've pulled the rug out from underneath him ( or that little voice inside ) this probably has totally thrown him for a loop and ramped this all to the froth he's in now? Saying....this is almost predictable...the most assured you become the more you're not playing your part?

I know this sounds like voodoo or something along those lines....but it really is amazingly predictable and I'm been going through the same thing with my wife? If you can just stay calm, cool, and collected and bide you're time....just let him ride that wave until he crashed on the beach...."face plant".... (thud!!! lol ) When he gets up and spits the sand out his mouth and out of his ears....he may have an awakening...if there you are doing just fine and NOT crashing with him? This is exactly what I've been working so hard to do and my wife has really responded to this? It's totally self sabotaging behavior and that part she knows very well. She knows it from all her past relationships when other people have freaked out on her and done the opposite? That part she knows....but she still doesn't know why?

What I've done is surprised that little voice and by not freaking out, by not retreating, and by not treating her any differently...as if she hadn't done this.......the little voice is left scratching it's little head...and doesn't know what to do now? If she can't control me....she is left holding an empty bag and this I've found...is actually a good thing for both of us? When she runs out of road...and I won't get on the roller coaster...she's go no where to go...and leaving doesn't have the same appeal as it did before?

I think what you're doing...is exactly what you should do but I have a hunch ( just based on this attachment thing again ).....it's ust a feeling and I'm am basing a lot of it on my wife and I and what I've gone through with her....that your H's threats are about 40%....intention....and 60% that little voice and when that little voice is talking.....I just wouldn't put to much credence into it....but I would still take it seriously but I wouldn't hold my breath either? ( and count on him leaving for sure? If that makes sense?

It's just toooo text book...and it goes with the territory? I think the operant words here might be...."with a grain of salt?" Hope so? But there is more to it than just blind faith and a prayer....I think that's what I was getting at? The best thing you can possible do...is not react..and just be yourself and just see what happens? I'm sending my own optimism to you and hoping it plays out that way?

: ) This is my Thinking about Stacey Day

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 18:31

Stacey, your posts suggest to me that you are wide open, thinking hard, processing, you've done the courageous thing of getting your feelings up on the surface and named at the same time. If I were doing that in therapy every week, I'd be blown away, physically. In fact in one interlude a couple decades ago when I had some old problems finally coming calling in a way that I was ready to deal with them, I'd schedule therapy sessions on Friday afternoon because I knew that I'd need the weekend to process everything well enough to be back in shape for work Monday morning. I guess I'm an intense processer....but what you're going through with or without therapy is mega intense....and you're tackling it on so many fronts. Which is a good and courageous thing, girl. But it leads me to wonder if me adding one more question to what you're talking over with us all is piling one more thing on your mind. You pace yourself, OK, you're running for a win.

Anyway, hoping that it's just a thought in my head, not pertinent, or if it is, something that you've already worked through.

It stuck in my mind that as you describe what your husband is doing at home, he's not acting like someone leaving. People who have made up their mind to leave go. They often start spending more time away from contact, etc etc. They go looking for a place. They start packing boxes.

Is your husband residing in the state of leaving (but while staying home), or is he really going to go?

If he's not making it clear which he's doing....saying he's leaving, that he's not wanting to be there........or going....well I can see how that would tear anyone up, because again if it were me, and I'm not you, with a man who talk, half acted, talked about leaving, not wanting to be with, but he never WENT, I'd be hung up between two sets of emotions, and two sets of plans for myself. I'd be hung up between two different ways of taking care of myself.

If he really went, you could get on with your grieving and letting go.

If he's got you in some kind of suspended state in which he's there, but not there, half there, today a little there, on Facebook not there, no effort on his part to vamoose, no date for bye bye, shoot, you couldn't get on with your life.

Just count this me worrying about you Stacey. And as I say, it's a question that came up: does he want to leave? Or does he want to be in some suspended state of talking about it having you near but he kind of half freezes you.....which does he want? To really go? Or to be in this state in between being there and being gone?

For someone who wants to go, sitting 2 feet away on the sofa and doing conversations in his head in which he thinks you're responding is not exactly the behavior of a person on his way out the door. I know he may have to struggle with executive function in managing himself and the work of leaving, but never the less ....he seems to want to be half there..... or so I wonder from what I'm remembering of what you've said hes been doing of late.

Now - I have been mentally

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 20:44

Now - I have been mentally and emotionally exhausted for 6 years now. Not all related to my husband, but the lack of emotional support and "love deposits" in my otherwise empty on fumes "love account" has not made my journey easy at all. In the past 6 years, my first husband died, I got remarried, I changed jobs 2 times (with a 5 year stint in a SUPER stressfull role), I moved 3 times (2 times across state lines), bought a house, sold a house, had 2 dogs die from terminal illnesses that required a ton of care, spent about a year taking care of my mother in yet another state as she took her final journey from cancer - culminating in being by her side as she took her last breath. During all these events - my husband was diagnosed with ADHD, left me 2 times, came BACK 2 times, broke all my "deal breaker" promises except 1 - which is cheating (that I know of - even though he did go out on a date once while we were separated, even though dating was NOT an option at the time), his CSA came out, I filled out divorce paperwork 1 time, he told me video games were more important to him than me 1 month after my first husband had died (we were still very close and it gutted me), then again, after we moved to our new house 3 years later he did it again, and then one month after my mother died he tells me he cant be married anymore that he "feels out of control" and all this crap that I have been posting about. During this time - we went to counseling together and separately for 4 years, and he also saw a CSA specialist.

During this time - I have been told that I am not worth it, that he doesnt love me - but then he does, that he wants to leave, but then wants to stay and work on things, that it will never work, and then I am his future.... in and out, back and forth, pendulum swings... one extreme to another. I was told he doesn't want to be touched, so i stopped touching him unless he asks me to. No affection, no intimacy... I would be surprised if the number of times we had sex was in the 3 digits in 7 years.

Exhausted doesnt even COVER it.... LOL I HAVE to process fast, and hard or I will drown in all this. I have lived in limbo and in a suspended state - its insane really. If anyone else treated me the way he has treated me over the years, I would have left LONG time ago. I had this notion that this is my friend of 25 years....I cant just abandon him. THing is - I have SEEN the man he is on the inside, when he is activly treating his issues. When he is making concious decisions to improve and be a man of his WORD instead of a man of his MOOD.

I have lived with all that, accepted it, swallowed it.... Because I believed that I was investing into a happier future with the man I truly love with all my heart. And still do. I have forgiven him for so many slights - I dont even really remember them because they dont matter in the scheme of things. I understand where the behavior came from. I know that he is NOT a bad person, I know that I am NOT a bad person. But now that he doesnt want to deal with his issues, and wants to escape somehow from this lack of control, this fear of life- how am I supposed to stop that? The answer is I cannot. He is walking towards a cliff, and there is nothing I can do to turn him off course. I have done all that I can to support him, be there for him, love him and show that he can count on me. And in the end - its him running away.

SOOOOO - yeah, I am soooo tired. :-) But I am also energized from the work I am doing on myself. Now that I am refocusing on my needs, I am feeling better bit by bit every day. When he first said he was leaving, I did the thing I normally do, I told him that I understand that he is having problems and that he is fearful, but that things would be ok, and then I went about being the happy good little wife, making sure he had the things he wanted and needed so that he could be "happy". And he acted as if he was. We were making plans again about the future, planning trips for next year, coming up with ideas for our hobby, making decisions together about the house etc. And all of it was a lie to him. Because after he said he wanted a divorce, we spend 3 months having a wonderful time together, him being loving and being a great husband to me. And then, he got upset about something that his mom told him involving his sister and the CSA, and he was back to treating me like enemy #1. Then he was back to "I cant be a husband to you, I feel like I have no control" so I asked him what I was doing that made him feel out of control so that I could work on it - and he said it wasnt me. (I posted about this before).

Then when I confronted him on his behavior - his loving "husband-like" behavior if he was planning on leaving, and he had the gall to tell me he was just trying to be "civil" while he was still in the house. Making plans with someone, carressing their hair and giving hello/goodnight kisses, telling them you love them, asking if they are missed when they are out, calling every time they leave etc is NOT being civil, thats "being a good husband". When I asked him about that activity - he said he only wanted to be married when in a good mood. OH LAWDY.... my brain snapped so hard I think I seriously got whiplash. That is what lead me to this current mentality and change, slow anger boiled up to rage and I channeled all that into my excersizing and determination to be a BETTER person FOR MYSELF finally.

As for how he acts.... He has not packed anything, he has not saved anything, he has not made any attempt to look for an apartment that I know of or looked into getting his own car (we share a truck that I own), he tells me he loves me every night, he tells me he loves me every morning when he leaves for work, he calls me on his lunch breaks, he texts me when he arrives somewhere so I know he is safe, he has altered how he talks to me in a positive way (seems more concerned about how he talks to me which is REALLY nice), we watch TV and movies together, we eat, laugh and joke again, and he even has started sharing funny things he finds online with me - which he didnt really do before. All this positive changes happened at the same time he started following through with his promises of getting things done around the house - which he did an AMAZING job. He worked hard, he got things done and I was really impressed. It was a huge change. At the same time - as in the very same day, he got up on my elliptical and started working out 4 times a week (m, t, th, f since w he does his fighting practice). Then he got active about finding a job and found one (because he had not really tried even when he was saying he wanted to leave and get divorced). The best part of this change was that he started becoming very considerate of me. he was bringing me a glass of water every time I got up to work out (which he had not even aknowledged for 2 months!) and making sure i had paper towels to mop the sweat off my face. It inspired me to do the same for him. Really when he did that - all in 1 day, started working on the promises about the house, working out for himself and bringing me that water....it completely shocked me and I posted here about it LOL.

So the timeline looks like this:

November 2015 - my mom dies and I come home after being in another state for months

Jan 2016 - he falls apart right after saying he was there for me, and says he wants a divorce because "he cant hack it", I tell him that he says this at the same time every year (Jan is when his sister was born and when she committed suicide) and that I beleive we will get through the crisis (my mother's death I think sent him into a tail spin).

Feb 2016 - everything seemed pretty much normal. He was coming out of his funk, getting happier with his fighting etc.

March - same as feb.

April - his mother tells him some stuff about the CSA, and he starts withdrawing from me again - so I tell him not to treat me like the enemy that I am here for him. He says he doesnt want to be married and thats when he said he only wants to be married when he is in a good mood - WHIPLASH.

I started working out, taking care of myself and withdrawing into my own world. I stopped communicating with him outside of required logistics. I stopped sharing, joking etc - became very business like. I figured thats what he wanted. He withdrew further but I didnt try to stop it like I normally would have. I focused in on myself, started working on my own issues, working on my own happiness. I started eating better, working out, and making my OWN plans. I started reconnecting with friends and family that I had kind of avoided because I was so stressed all the time. I found myself becoming happier at the thought of my future. More confident in who I am. I got some REAL confidence boosters from new friends and from family. But most of all - I realized that I am my best asset and that I deserved better than these controlling threats.

For 2 months - I did this while he withdrew. And then suddenly - OUT OF THE BLUE... he just... changed! Thats when he started doing all the good positive things above. And things have progressed that we laugh and talk and are generally happy around eachother. There are things that bother me yes (and I have posted endlessly it seems about them LOL some serious and some REALLY stupid), and I have found out that when I come here and vent - I get some GREAT advice and support and its been amazingly helpful for me. :-D Thanks to all of YOU GUYS... I swear I feel like I would be lost with out yal!

So far - the only mention of him leaving was about 1.5 months ago when he asked if he could stay until march of next year. So while things might be peachy on the surface, my cousin thinks he is doing all this so that I will let him stay - keeping me hooked with some false hope. She is cynical and protective - but VERY VERY SMART. So thats where I am at. I dont know how genuine he is with all of this. I will not allow myself to fall into that trap of false hope that I see happening. I am not going to let my very real, very raw emotional feelings for him dictate what is going to happen anymore. He says he is going to leave? Ok - he can leave, and I will take him at his word. If that is what he truly wants then its a win win situation. If its not - he is going to have to learn to live authentically and honestly with me as I will not play any more mind games. I feel like he has toyed with me all year with this - and I am to the point that I am SICK of it, and will not take it anymore. No matter what happens - things will change for me for the better. He will either step up or step right on out of my life. But if he steps up - its going to have to be consistent and truthful and lasting to get me to ever consider staying with him.

Holy smokes - I wrote a book, and I know alot of its repeated from previous posts... I like to be thurough though - helps me work things out in my own head too! LOL

Hugs

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 21:01

I read it all. Taking it in Stacey. This truly has been a day of thinking about you, at my end. I'll read all this again. Writing helps, doesnt it. You've been through a lot. You've got a good soul. You take care of yourself tonight and tomorrow, and I will take care of me too. Deal? Many wishes that you have good rest, tonight.

You got a deal Now!!! :-) So

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 21:15

You got a deal Now!!! :-) So funny how even though we dont see eachothers faces, or know eachother in "real" life- I care about you guys as if we had been friends for years. I guess its a comrades in arms situation - we are all battling a common foe, and rely on eachother for help to get through the hard bits.

I appreciate you more than I could ever explain. Your posts have enlightened me, and made me feel 10000 times better. I hope that I can return that to you too. :-)

I really don't think you have to detach.....

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 18:01

Just reading all the responses to you and your questions....I think you just to need step back; be the fly on the wall and Accept his reality, and then move on with your life, is my suggestion....He isn't holding you in limbo, your doing it to yourself....He is controlling you, with your permission!

Is it possible that he is no more or no less committed now than he has ever been or ever will be?? When a person goes through a real life change, it's very easy to tell it....So don't allow your emotions to go up and down based on his day to day attitude concerning his marriage commitment, or lack of it....

Turn inward and just focus on Stacey and what a healthy life is for you....I promise you if do this a little while clarity will come to you; and possibly him...I suggest you take some quiet time to focus on what you want out the remainder of your life...What is important to Stacey?? The attachment issue will take care of itself....You are the only one who can make a decision for Stacey; and you will never make one for him...

A new healthy out look for yourself....can also force the non committed partner to Shit or get of the pot....Don't do it for that reason; doing it because God Loves You...And you are important!!!!

blessings

As you have clearly explained

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 18:50

I think what you said- in a nutshell - is the explanation of detachment. Functioning without being attached to (insert item/person here).

Sincerely,

Liz

Hi Liz...

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 09/26/2016 - 19:21

I don't think I agree totally; maybe because I'm a man or maybe it's because I have found the Lord loves me and takes care of my needs, no matter what she does....My wife is not my identity...

Having boundaries; and not placing expectations on someone that you can't trust to be responsible doesn't affect my attachment....I'm at peace in sharing with her in any part of life that is healthy....

I'm just not available anymore for things that tear down vs build up.....It's a choice!

What is needed in a relationship

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 12:27

Hi C,

I so thoroughly enjoy all the feelings and emotions that are part and parcel to being a human being. Sorting through all these 'emotional ways of being' continues to be a work in process for me.

I seek the serenity that results when I make good choices. I want to detach from being preoccupied by the emotional ramifications of any else's actions, yet not be cold, hard, and unyielding. "Feelings are indicators, not dictators. They can indicate where your heart is in the moment, but that doesn't mean they have the right to dictate your behavior or boss you around. You are more than the some total of your feelings and perfectly capable of that little gift from Jesus called self-control!" ~unknown~

I need to be cautious to use these things as a "way of being" rather than as a weapon against some one else.

I continue to sort what is the way God created men, what is simply our personality differences, what is good, and what is poor - in each of us.

And then, add ADHD. Same things applies as it being my spouse's 'way of being' rather than as an excuse or weapon he could choose to wield against learning a more peaceful way of navigating his relationships with family, customers, friends, people who rub him the wrong way, and our marriage.

A lesson I learned many years ago still applies in my everyday life. At one time my life was ruled by the many people - LOL, O.K. probably everybody. I placed many people in the position of authority figures over me. In my view, these people were smarter than me, knew more than me, were prettier than me, were more mature than me, were more social than me, had more experience than me, did a better job than me, etc., etc., etc.. I had them on pedestals. They were how 'I wanted to be.' I looked up to them in a way that was out of balance. On the opposite side, there were also a few random people, who I felt a bit superior over. . . . . . .looked down my nose at them. . . . . . . judged them.

What I learned is, the people I put on pedestals were also this thing called 'human beings'. And they were not perfect. And if I did not change my own attitude on how I perceived them, one day when there humanness came through, and they faltered or made a wrong turn, or a mistake, they would topple off that pedestal that I put them on, and I would get clunked on the head on their way down.

The people I looked down upon, were also this thing called 'human beings.' and I had to change how I perceived them. Rather than looking at them with contempt, so I could feel better about myself, I chose to look with compassion, understanding, and wisdom.

I do try to keep most people on a level playing field with myself. I pull those, that I had elevated,down off their pedestals, and pull those up from my disdain.

THEN, it is time to apply the tools of good boundaries and detachment. I want both of those to remain as "tools' to improve my own well being, rather than weapons against someone else.

This allows others the freedom to be themselves. And make their own choices. Based on. . . . .taa daa . . . . .their own choices.

I believe marriage is a gift. Marriage is a commitment. Marriage is not a life sentence.

There are many, many Biblical instructions. They must ALL be used and applied. We cannot cherry-pick one over the other because we like it better. I seek to find balance in everything.

Some of my favorites are :

Ecclesiastes 4:9-11 Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up! Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone?

Ephesians 5:33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives'

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered. (In our marriage - I would say we can be the perfect example of 'the woman as the weaker vessel.' I am 5' 8" and weight around 170. My spouse is 6' 4" and weights about 270. )

Very truly,

Liz

Amazing Post Liz.....

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 19:10

( I want to detach from being preoccupied by the emotional ramifications of any else's actions, yet not be cold, hard, and unyielding.)

Yes...I have nothing to add...Your post and this message I hi-lighted is my story....I have learned the only thing I need to fear; is what I am capable of.....You are so right.....we can't cherry pick....The story of God's plan for marriages is perfect....

C,

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 16:04

I think you have a couple of really good points here - this one esspecially! "He is controlling you, with your permission!"

This right here is what gave me whiplash 4 months ago. I realized that and it was like a cold hard slap in the face! For 7 years I have bent over backwards to make sure NOTHING I was doing was controlling or manipulative. Every thing I have done I have vetted in my head, double checking my own motives, making sure I wasnt being crazy etc. I have walked on eggshells for 7 years - making sure that anything I do would not set him off the deep end and make him want to leave - and keeping up with his ever changing rules on that was exhausting! And I have looked inside for so long trying to figure out what I was doing that was controlling - and then 4 months ago, when he told me he only wanted to be married when he was in a good mood - it came into laser sharp focus that he had been using that threat to control me..... and *I* was letting him. Controlling me with my permission. Threatening me with leaving when I didnt meet his expectations of what marriage should be (which is extra ordinarily warped by the way - he fully thinks that a relationship is 2 people who have no effect on eachother and can do anything they want with out the other having anything to say about it.... for real). And those expectations? as fluid as water... changing daily. What he wanted yesterday is controlling today. He asks me to help him with something and then its me forcing him to do it and butting in. The jig is rigged. I cannot succeed in this. And that is the point. He doesnt want this marriage to succeed because that would mean that he has to step up and be accountable and he doesnt want that. Doesnt fit his narrative of what a life in control looks like. (more warpped thinking that he cannot recognize compromise out of love and respct from control and manipulation for and end).

The other thing you pointed out? That turning inward and focusing on me is what is healthy. You are right - and thats what I am trying to do - soooooo very hard. I am trying to find a way to detach emotionally so that I dont drown in this sorrow and heartbreak that seems only *I* feel. Its hard letting go - its even harder when he doesnt even notice or care that I am letting go. It crushes me to see him be perfectly content with the idea that he is loosing me and our life together. It hurts to know that he is relieved while I am destroyed.

Hi Stacey....

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 09/30/2016 - 00:40

(That turning inward and focusing on me is what is healthy. You are right - and that what I am trying to do - soooooo very hard.)

It takes time, or at least it has for me. I've been knowing what is healthy; I've been knowing what I should do for quiet some time....But; when you feel so strongly about having a healthy relationship, when you want it so bad...It's just hard to face the reality.....So we vent; we talk about it, they dominate our thoughts....We fall deeper into the trap...it becomes constant....

All we're doing is getting more and more messed up, more angry, more bitter, more cold.... I started to leave 4 years ago....But, deep down I knew that I had not done my best...I knew that (act , react cycle) my actions toward her were not honorable...my anger, my bitterness had to go....I was so caught up in my view of what kind of love and sharing should be going on in our relationship that I could not accept her....I would not accept that she wasn't trying to sabotage our marriage, and that she wasn't capable of more.... I got strung out in Co-dependency right off...And not only was my efforts unappreciated; she would say hard uncaring things about my efforts!....

She was very messy, a mild hoarder; so, my cleaning was looked at as a knife in the back instead of what I was intended it to be, an act of love and service in our marriage....All I was doing was trying to keep the place half picked up so we could even have our grown children or friends over for a visit w/o embarrassment....They accepted it her much better than I did or was capable of doing...Of course they were in and out, it was constant for me... Our difference's were so overwhelming I was drowning....I had no idea a person could possibly live this way and think this way...It was so foreign to me...I was clueless, every thing I tried to do or point out was wrong and offensive in her eyes....

But this little story isn't any different from anybody else here....Just different names, and few different facts....Same internal and external conflicts, same pain...Same desire for healing....

So what to do? My Steps for deliverance....Cry out to God to save me!...Work through my anger and bitterness...Fully accept her reality; which is nothing like mine, but it doesn't matter, either accept her or leave....Set boundaries to help our difference's not be an issue....such as...(Take separate cars if I need to be on time,) (separate taxes), (separate finance's)...(Do not go on certain trips out of town together, when hyper focus on other people or places is going to cause me to not exist...If I do, expect it and have my own plans)...(Certain area's of the house or off limits to piles of junk, especially trip hazards)...No pointing out to her what she should be doing, when she is struggling to get out the door or what ever, let her crash, but under no circumstances Do I Mother her or enable her even if she gets angry and say's something hard when she can't make me enable her...These are just some of our boundaries....

I've struggled to keep my own advice....It's been eggshell city at times... LOL....But, lately I have found the magic bullet....I've been intentional about having only one great fear....And it's not allowing any trust in myself....I must live humbly; and quietly...I must look inward and deal only with me.....

What's coming out it?? I will let you know; but, God is working in our lives (awareness)....We have been at peace lately for that I'm thankful...I've also decided if I post here any longer, it will only be to share and encourage...I'm not going to vent about my wife any longer....If this forum can't be constructive for my marriage w/o offending my spouse I will leave it....

Peace be with you Stacey!

my oesteopath said to me when

Submitted by inthedark on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 02:25

my oesteopath said to me when I told her the relationship I was trying to form with ADHD person was so hard. "K (me), your relationship shouldn't be hard, it should be easy" Amen! I know it's hard when you love someone (there's that word again), but she is right, we have the right to be happy, hope we can find the strength to say "no" when it all gets too much.

65

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 06:41

Hi, K

My husband who has ADHD and I who dont are near you in age. We're in a new marriage. In other threads you've wondered whether your partner is too old to start meds, and mentioned that he depended on you to drive, at least in one situation. I dont know the answer to your question about meds, although I scouted the question online, and at least one medical information site indicated that meds can be prescribed. But that's a decision that your partner and his doctor would have to make.

What I'd be more concerned about, at his age, is his willingness and drive to make any changes in the way he thinks of things and does things. He's been living with himself as is for a long time. Yes old dogs can learn and do the same new tricks that middle aged dogs and teen dogs can, but it takes a strong drive, because there is a lot of prior life to deal with, and depending on the person past 50, you also have to be making that change while certain of your powers, like physical stamina, are starting to change. Your partner, at his age, HAS to choose the change for himself, and be willing to lean in, potentially laboring on the change, to get it done, for a longer time.

You cant do that for him. You can care about him. You can tell him you want his wellbeing, which is the truth. You can decide about how you live well, and whether what he does with you and to you, is enough for you. But at his age, him tackling anything he does that comes from inside him has to be his project.

If he doesnt incline to change to fit into a relation that fosters your wellbeing, too, aging with him wont improve things. You can love someone, and not have it work out. : ) but never think that old dogs cant learn new tricks.

Woof,

NowOrNever

Amen...NoworNever

Submitted by Zapp10 on Wed, 09/28/2016 - 08:43

So very well heard by this "over the hill" (and loving it) non spouse. A " reality" check put simply and kindly.

Thank you, NON

Short story......my H went with my brother-in law on a cross country(NY to Cal) road trip. They stopped along the way at various sites to check things out. Many places had guided tours. My b-i-l was amazed at how my H was so slow at moving along, randomly wandering off, being asked to catch up etc. (This was before knowing of the adhd.) While I KNEW that this was how my H would be on this trip my b-i-l couldn't believe how H was. Oh and on their return trip by plane?.......sure enough my H got pulled aside at security over some little thing...made a bit worse by his "attitude". I told my b-i-l you only experienced him for a short period of time.....I live with this 24/7.....Now do you understand why I get wound so tight sometimes? God bless my b-i-l, he really does like my H and he now understands why I struggle at times. He also gets NOW that H cannot conversate at a fast pace and to expect him to do so is unkind.

thank you

Submitted by inthedark on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 02:45

thank you NoworNever, it is so great to have your advice, and because you are similar age to us too. He is pretty set in his ways but said he can change and adapt to fit in with me which told me that he cared about me and my situation, but at the moment we both have committments in one way or another that are preventing us from making plans just for us. so whether we can adapt to eachother full time I just don't know, only time will tell I guess. he seems to lack confidence, says unusual things which just peak my curiosity, don't know if its part of the ADHD.

As a follow up to my original

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 11:45

As a follow up to my original post... one of the reasons I am trying to detach is that i HATE the kind of person I have become. This is just one example, and please - let the rediculousness of my feelings sink in here...

Social media. Both of us have FB pages. In the beginning, during the hyper focus stage - while we were still long distance and before we had been together physically, we posted to eachother all the time. We both "liked" and tagged and shared stuff together. He always responded to things I posed and vice versa. Once we had been together in person for the first time - everything fell apart - including how we interacted on social media. It bugged me - I can be honest about that. It was just one layer of the attentiveness that I had from him, and then it was gone with all the other layers. I suppose that had the other things he did stayed the same - at the same level of attentiveness, I probably would not have cared or even noticed the drop off. But since EVERYTHING changed, it was noticed.

It got to the point that my stuff didnt even cross his feed. I still interacted with his, always responding and trying to make sure I always "liked" his stuff. In fact, I did that for the past 7 years, always wanting to make sure he didnt feel neglected. I stopped doing that 4 months ago - and of course, he didnt notice. And I stopped caring. I guess when you stop focusing on caring for your mate, it eventually just goes out of your mind and you "get over it" you know? Well, one of the dumb facebook apps shows your memory from the past "on this day". Well - on this day YEARS ago, I had found some old pictures of my step daughter all dirty in an old box full of junk. So I scanned them and uploaded them to FB and tagged him and his mother and his daughter. Today - he "shared" this memory of mine, and tagged his daughter and mother - and DIDNT tag me. And you know what? It freaking bugged me. It really pissed me off! I have become someone who gets MAD at this... and I hate myself for it. I am not looking for credit - I am looking for inclusion! THis man, who is married to ME, who is supposed to love me above all others consistantly responds to others in social media - while essentially operating in black out mode to me. Even his mother commented about it and said it wasnt right when we talked last week and it came up. its like to him - I am NOT part of the family, just some hanger on who has a conveinient ability to finance his life choices.

I am just so angry about it - far more than I should be, and I know this has to be related to deeper problems. This is one of the primary reasons I think detaching is the way to go - so that I dont care about this stuff ANYMORE. One top of being very hurt by the exclusion (yet again), I am angry as hell at myself that i even care. HOW STUPID IS THIS! It feels like a really dumb roller coaster.

Last night we had a really nice night, laughing and joking and generally in a good mood. And then this - I see it and it sours me totally. Normally I would see how dumb I am and let it go - but right now I am having a hard time with it. I am so sick of not being part of this family - according to HIM. Ever feel forgotten? Its how I have felt through 90% of my relationship with my husband. Not because of my mother in law - but because of my husband! He doesnt even consider me as part of the equation.

That would make me feel like

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 11:55

That would make me feel like crud, too, Stacey.

You;re not overreacting. He

Submitted by vabeachgal on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 12:12

You;re not overreacting. He is paying attention to other people and not you.

Thanks Val And Rosered...

Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 12:22

Thanks Vabeachgal And Rosered...

Its nice to know that I am not alone in this. Sometimes I get a bit twisted thinking I should NOT feel things that I do, and I genuinely think that if my relationship with my husband was one that was healthy and normal - this sort of thing would not bother me even a tiny bit. But when all you get are crumbs, and even THOSE get taken away, its hard not to be upset about that tiny little speck of affection that is taken away yet again.

Its like I am one of those beggars fighting with a stray dog over a tiny crust of stale bread dropped by a passerby.

transference

Submitted by inthedark on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 16:29

i learnt this from my psychologist, i was getting sick like the person i was caring for. sounds like you're falling into that trap too. detaching a good idea, i really think they don't or can't care, i have let my ADHD person 'loose', be interesting to see if i hear from him again.

Detaching

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Thu, 09/29/2016 - 18:04

One of the bet ways to detach is, as others have said, to live apart. I know, however, that you are slow to want to do that because of the dog. Could he not get 'visiting time' with the dog each day or something? Where you didn't have to take care of him, etc? That said, sincer there are also financial concerns (where does that new paycheck get deposited, for example?) it's probably better to set a time limit to how long he will live there (regardless of the dog) and use the time to negotiate through some of the details of your not living together...

One resource that may be helpful to you is a book called "Should I Stay or Go? How Controlled Separation Can Save Your Marriage" by Lee Raffel. Chapter 2 provides an overview of some of the issues that the two of you should be discussing as you pull your lives into more separate realms. Things like financial tenets, should you be allowed to enter the other person's home without asking first, dating other people, etc.

It's really hard to detach, particularly when being together can feel so comfortable. Further, if you actually LIKE being around him when he is carrying his fair share, then perhaps detaching for the long term (i.e. divorce) is not the right direction. Rather, consider setting specific deadlines for specific changes that MUST happen for you to be happy in the relationship, move apart temporarily, and see what happens. (When I did this, I set a deadline in my head but did not tell my husband about it, as I was more interested in him self-motivating, than being driven by a deadline I set.) That provides a sort of middle ground - you learn to live without him in the house and see what that feels like to you (over time (at first it may feel awful) and he has a chance to assess his life without you and decide if he wants to get the kind of help needed to be a better partner.

If you do it this way, though, don't make excuses for him if you don't see all of the changes you need to be happy. You aren't responsible for his changes...but you are responsible for your happiness.

Living apart has a way of reinforcing the importance of the moment...and this can help resolve things - one way or the other.

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