In another topic, this sentence came up as a motto used by those who would rather focus on the "fun" in life while ignoring the responsibilities in life. It seems to really be the theme of the last couple of generations. That "come what may, make yourself happy" shit getting fed to us by movies and TV shows by people whose wealth and narcisism completely removes them from the reality of 99% of our lives. I get wanting to be happy, and everyone should persue it, but that motto and phrase seems to be used by the people who use it as an excuse to trample all over others, and put themselves and their "feeling" above those around them.
For instance, my husband wants to "do what makes him happy" and his "friends" encourage him in this. But what they dont see is that he doesnt hold up his end of the responsibilities of the home, he doesnt pull his own weight in our household, and certainly not in our relationship (how can he when his focus is "his happiness"). It really burns me up! I certainly have NO PROBLEM with anyone persuing - until it means they have to rely on others to make it happen and/or it takes from and harms others to get it. My husband has no problem breaking his own word, a HUGE character fault if ever there was one, just to get what will make him happy in the moment. And while right now that means he would rather divorce me, and move out just to play his video games and not have to worry about controlling his habbit - in the future would that mean cheating on me with someone else because "it made him happy at the moment"? These are thoughts that actually have run through my head for years. I suppose I should be grateful that I dont have to worry about it anymore.
But that phrase... man it just irks me right now. He used me up to get "what would make him happy" with out ever even considering doing anything at all to bring ME happiness. Selfish. Incondsiderate. That whole phrase is just horrible to me right now.
People like my husband and other who have his issues seem to not make the connection that happiness - real, solid happiness comes from accomplishment with ones self. Not with what someone has, or what level of game they are at. And when your accomplishments are built on others being hurt, or broken promises, or theft of resources (by actual theft or just not contributing their part) then no true happiness can be had. And All I can hear in my head is people telling him "well you gotta do what makes you happy". Dont worry about not supporting your daughter, dont worry about not even trying to save your marriage - because hell, its only your WIFE, those promises dont matter if you arent in the mood to keep them. Just do what makes you happy... and if that means betraying those you say you love - who cares! Its all about that immediate happiness RIGHT NOW that matters. And when you feel like shit after a while when that gratification wears away, just find something else fast that can replace it.
To me - it seems this is an excuse utilized all the time to justify bad, cruel, manipulative and unfair behavior to others by people. And it seems (in my experience) using ADHD as the excuse to justify it and be OK with it.
I am a far less angry and
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I am a far less angry and bitter person than my posts might suggest. I don't spend my entire days consumed with anger and venting. But I do vent here.
Your post contains an important topic. People often don't understand that outer-directedness can provide real happiness. Being concerned about other people and working to ensure their happiness will augment your own.
I just had lunch with a very dear friend with whom I don't discuss the intricacies of my ADHD marriage arrangement. As I've mentioned before, I only talk to one person about it. He is wildly successful. He started with nothing. Became a plumber. He flipped a house, then more houses...then entire neighborhoods. He has created his own independent real estate brokerage and property management firm - not a franchise deal - from scratch. He is humble. He is happy. On any given day, if you talk to him, here's what he will say to you.... "The more I give, the more I get. The more I help others, the more success I experience. I want everyone to be successful." He is always looking for ways to help other people. His employees love him. He spends considerable thought and energy creating a fun, positive and encouraging work environment. When successful agents join his firm, they become more successful. All of the positive energy he puts "out there" comes back to him as if reflected from a huge magnifying mirror. Sure, there is the occasional "user" or ungrateful person or resoundingly and irretrievably negative person he can't reach. He gives from a pure heart and receives the same in return.
I like his philosophy. I have never been a person who has worried about giving more than I get or keeping a scorecard. I've always felt that the universe, on whole, is a rather balanced place. I've never been hung up on things like office politics and blame because, you know, if I blame someone today, tomorrow the fuck up might be mine? Let's just fix it. I've used the non-scorecard philosophy during my life and it has generally worked really well for me. I have loyal friends and co workers. I've helped people. People have helped me. Minimal stress, drama and animosity.
So what is the difference? Somehow my husband's ADHD personality (and I'm not going to make an ADHD generalization) is not a reflective mirror, but rather a black hole. It absorbs, it doesn't reflect. It is selfish. So much of my anger is the realization that my core philosophy is ineffective with him and actually causes me harm. I don't want to change whom I am to deal with it. It makes me unhappy and it doesn't feel genuine. I think my angst is that I feel "unnatural" and non-authentic in this relationship, like the behavior that makes me happy and fills my soul...doesn't.work.here. Some of the anger and bitterness I express, I've come to believe, is a resistance to the changes that are/have been occurring in me. I don't want to be bitter. I haven't decided if "working on myself" within this unhappy situation will be sufficient.
My H has no anxiety. He can't see how his actions affect others. His ADHD has not required that he change anything - others have yielded to him. I've come to feel very uncomfortable in a relationship where my nature is taken advantage of. The solutions? Create workarounds? Set fenceposts? Create boundaries? Ignore? Work on myself? "Acceptance?" Look outside of the marriage for satisfaction (don't mean an affair)? It all seems so sad. As a spouse, I've worked hard to ensure my H's happiness, but somehow the dots don't connect. I could go on and on with examples, but it doens't work. It's oil and water. My philosophy is what it is and his philosophy (verbalized on occasion) is, well if it's offered (whatever it might be, tangible or not), I'll take it - and never sees a need for reciprocity. He has actually said many, many times if it's offered, he'll take it and oh well about the person doing the offering.
Vabeachgal....May I add....
Submitted by c ur self on
(The solutions? Create workarounds? Set fenceposts? Create boundaries? Ignore? Work on myself? "Acceptance?" Look outside of the marriage for satisfaction (don't mean an affair)? It all seems so sad. As a spouse, I've worked hard to ensure my H's happiness, but somehow the dots don't connect.)
I came to my laptop to write a post about this exact thing...The effects of living with someone so different....Or how ever you want to title it....But when I read Stacey's post, and your reply i decided my point will fit right here....
You're post about yourself, is a post about a person who is "able to share", your comment I highlighted is about the trail and error way you have come to understand you must manage your life to avoid a person who is, "incapable of unity and sharing"....The black hole of self absorption....
The point I was going to make is based on all the stories I've read about dealing with these very different minds. It's about being in a life long monogamous relationship w/ a person's who's very nature and core being goes against our own....(This is not about adhd, to say that it is would do two things...Make a wrong judgment of people who have adhd, and let abusers, and users off the hook)
I live much as you say you do for the most part...I was so tired of the conflict that I started focusing on what I could do to avoid it...(boundaries etc..) So I have, and it's an on going process of recognition that I must accept the reality of it all, guard against allowing myself to become a victim, ( or angry and unthankful) and stay conscience of loving her as I should, and vowed to do, in the process.
So where's the Rub? LOL...It becomes easy enough after awhile to (like you said) work around most things...With boundaries I can move the junk for safety, travel separate to be on time, I can do meals, cleaning and laundry, separate finances, separate taxes etc...etc....I have trained myself to avoid the conflict without being the victim...If she didn't exist, I would mange my life in similar fashion anyway...Just that the house would be much cleaner w/ no unused piles of junk:)
So what's the problem?? Is it the constant awareness?? Maybe a little, but, I think the real issue here based on what I read, and what I've experienced is.."The inability for unity"
VBG & Stacey you two like myself and all the others that are in similar situations, can do so much on our own...We can do all the reality checks, when it comes to our own commitment, our own self awareness. We can stay away from conflict w/ boundaries, and all the tools you and I have listed....But at some point we will eventually need unity...You can't take this independent roommate life style but just so far? Marriage is suppose to be about Interdependence, not Independence....Two=One...Unity, Sharing...It was created by the Master, it's the perfect plan, if two submit to it...
We eventfully will need to reach out for unity.....95% or our conflicts come when we need this unity....I bet it's the same for most of the people who post here based on what I read.....
Things like Vacations, or plans of any kind, Love making is huge one. Things can be very peaceful at times (when the contradicting minds or at rest, or focused on the same object) when there is nothing to cause these two minds to start working against each other....
But, anything that can cause distractions, hyper-focus, and the disagreements where one mind is prioritizing from a mental list of big picture responsibilities vs a child like focus on fun and frivolity (now, not now thinking) it will most always cast the two into conflict....
There can be no unity, where there is no submission...In many instances, (I would say most) just the knowledge of each others nature (view of life) starts communication off in a defensive and negative light (oh no here we go again)...Unity is defeated before we even start the engaging....
But we press on, no one really hearing anything (but the buzz of our own mind, and the mingling of words as they flow together in a crescendo of rhythmless interruption, and then like the great conductors of the Orchestra or we get both hands and fingers involved) but we are driven from a mind that is dogged determined to be heard....But, in reality, even if we are heard, (our view of life) our partner is hearing a different language, no ability to comprehend what we see.....
C
Central Auditroy Processing Disorder? CAPD?
Submitted by kellyj on
C...I've been researching a little more into this as a co-morbid condition along with ADHD since my hearing as a child was poor...but along with that..I had a lot of issues with the exact same symptoms because of my condition? I had horrible ear infections that were excruciatingly painful..and one of the vaguest...almost surreal images in my memory...was waking up screaming to find myself alone and frightened? This was the first night mare...I ever remember...and when I ask my mother about this and I do remember where I was ( the image again ) I may have been less that 2 years old which I really cannot recall anything else at that time ( pretty common I think?)
Anyway, my mother took me in to see a specialist ( for years ) until I was older...and he determined that I had nothing wrong with my auditory nerves...but the problems I had ...had to do with my plumbing ( in my ears ) small tubes and small diameter passage ways and which were contributing to blocking the sound before it got all the way to my ear drums? So I had a physical limitation that was creating this problem...but the results that came from this...were very much like CAPD. The one determining factor in this that I did not have (or have never had ) is in reading comprehension...and reading abilities to understand the written word....compared to the "spoken word". I also have/had...a really good "ear" in the ability to differentiate "sounds"...where they are coming from...and picking up subtleties..as long as I can hear them?
This differentiation ability...is the thing that seems missing with a person who has CAPD. As I got older...my hearing improved and with it...my ability to listen and follow directions and spoken word so this did improve? But the interesting thing in what I discovered when I went on medication was...I was hearing a lot more than I thought I was...so there is an aspect to this CAPD...that is still on the table for me even if more subtle....which goes hand in hand with my actual hearing loss...for real? I've been tested so many times in my life...that with me...there really is a bonifide hearing loss.....even without the CAPD in there if you were to include this?
Along with this...I have a really good "ear" for differentiating subleties in music and "pitch" which again....seems to go the opposite direction than CAPD since it seems the ability to "differentiate sounds " is the key component to this?
As for me....I'm not to worried about this and I'm come to learn...just paying attention more closely and making sure I can hear things has helped dramatically with this over the years but this thing with the meds helping...still has me wondering some?
But what you said here really hit a cord with me and I'm now really looking at this in a different direction and that being my wife? As you said this "But we press on, no one really hearing anything (but the buzz of our own mind, and the mingling of words as they flow together in a crescendo of rhythm less interruption, and then like the great conductors of the Orchestra or we get both hands and fingers involved) but we are driven from a mind that is dogged determined to be heard....But, in reality, even if we are heard, (our view of life) our partner is hearing a different language, no ability to comprehend what we see....."
Hearing a different language? Or not hearing the same language correctly?
I am applying this very much to my wife...because she reports ( and I notice ) she has a terrible time with sounds ie: knowing where they are coming from? Hearing in crowded places with many people taking. Distinguishing subtleties and differentiating sounds in general? And she has trouble in reading things and getting the meaning even then which all adds up to looking at CAPD and looking into this more?
And in CAPD...there is this thing called Dichotic Perception which has to do with all of these things and why...what it heard is not always understood? Differentiating sounds...has everything to do with this?
And for example...I have no trouble at all in crowded places ( like a noisy party ) hearing what is being said at all? You'd think ...that would be more difficult having a hearing loss...but it has no effect on my ability to hear or differentiate sounds and where they are coming from? In fact...I have an accute hear for directional sound location..and the subtleties that would tell me what is making that sound?
My wife on the other hand....struggles tremendously with this and along with this when I looked this up...I read this which was interesting?
Furthermore, as discussed in "Attention, reliability, and validity of perceptual asymmetries in the fused dichotic words test,"[32] women reported more "intrusions" or words presented to the uncued ear than men when presented with exogenous cues in the Fused Dichotic Word Task which suggests two possibilities: 1) Women experience more difficulty paying attention to the cued word than men and/or 2) regardless of the cue, women spread their attention evenly as opposed to men who may possibly focus in more intently on exogenous cues.[30]
In plain English. In a stereo kind of test where there are two different sounds presented at the same time...instead of hearing two sounds...the two sounds are fused into one sound with no ability to make this determination? And if you put two sounds into one..and make a new word..or hear a different word that is being said? That would be a whole new language indeed wouldn't you think? And it appears...that women may have more difficulty with this anyway..compared to men who pin point one sound..and kind of selectively throw the rest out kind of automatically. That's not Dichotic Fusion....that's just plain old selective hearing? ( something men have been accused of for....?????????? LOL )
But this is really an important discovery for me if this is true..because what you said about..."a mind that needs to be heard, "..and....But, in reality, even if we are heard, (our view of life) our partner is hearing a different language, no ability to comprehend what we see....."
This might not be...entirely accurate? In a limiting effect this may have on your ability to see your wife in the way she may desperately want to be seen....it's not her mind, per se....but how she hears sounds that is really making this so difficult. Actual "aural wave forms"...and then translating that into what they hear which ends up garbed in translation?
The thing my T challenged in doing more of with my wife...is being compassionate and humble. Anything along these lines...helps me do this with her since this is a real bonafide co-existing or co-morbid feature that can appear with ADHD...but not always or not severely? I amy have a touch of it...but it's never been my biggest issue? Understanding either spoken or written word has not been so much of an issue as just being able to hear the sounds in the first place....which does end up with many of the same symptoms at times but only in those situations and not others?
But I can tell you one thing from my remembering what it's like not to be able to hear? It's like a prison...or like sitting inside a glass sound proof room...while everyone else is talking away and you're just sitting there trying to hear anything?
There's a good article on Attitude Magazine about this and it made one reference in this that was remarkably telling?
"Parker cites the example of an Olympic skier who took a bad fall during practice. Having sustained a head injury and a concussion, his right temporal lobe showed significantly diminished function. Yet he presented with denial (also called low insight) regarding deteriorating communication he had with his wife and peers, firmly asserting that he had no problems. In this way, he had much in common with those adults with ADD/ADHD who have no perspective about their challenges. For these people, it's important to know that therapy emphasizing better communication strategies might not solve the problems.
After reading the skier's SPECT scan, Parker said to him, "You are the kind of guy who doesn't get it, and doesn't admit he doesn't get it." The patient took a deep breath and, with a dazed look, responded quickly, "No, I get it." Parker pointed out that he'd done it again -- given a pat answer that didn't reflect comprehension -- and asked the patient to repeat what Parker had just said. He mumbled an intelligent but jargon-filled answer. His wife chimed in: "This is what happens all the time."
As Parker recalls: "Ultimately, he did get it, because the SPECT scans and the problems with others proved undeniable. Medication and targeted supplements improved his communication skills."
Okay...for the sake of argument....I'm the kind of guy who does get it mostly? I have my areas...but not understanding things doesn't seem to one of them especially when I read things?
But from almost the very beginning of my wife and I living together...her ability to speak, communicate and understand what is being said...is the source for 99% or all the problems we've run into together and the ability to connect and communicate?
99% of ALL our difficulties...come in this area alone?
-Hearing things...I didn't say
-Apparently....not understanding what I say and hearing something else instead
-Is it further to New York...or by plane? Word...associations and meanings that get twisted around or part go missing?
-Cognitive distortions and misinterpreting people and what they said?
-Inability to differentiate?
-Inability to discern or be discerning subtleties or values in things
OMG...the list goes on?
And now add into this....how women in general...have this higher "intrusion"...or inability to differentiate "specific cues"..and spread things out more evenly in what they hear compared to men...and men are better at pin pointing exact cues...but not spreading this out in the same way?
I just thought I would pass along what I've recently learned about this which does help me understand what my wifes challenges are but mainly...so I don't take these things personally...and the fact I hate un-solved mysteries.....this helps me solve one of them at least which gets a lot closer to feeling resolution...as long as I have something to sink my teeth into? I can't say if this will help you in the same way...but compassion is never a bad thing?
But a step beyond compassion...it may give you a direction to focus on and find out for your wife as well? Could be....you know?
J
http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/8666-2.html ARTICLE ON CAPD AND ADHD
We all appreciate a little compassion....
Submitted by c ur self on
Is a color blind person normal? If the answer is yes, I'm going to hire you to explain to the color blind lady what Red and Blue looks like....If you say they are not normal then I'm going to write you off for being prejudice:)....Compassion is a very good thing J....No one knows all the intricacies' of the human mind, except for the creator of it.....
If you take all that Science knows, reasons, and speculates about the human brain, add in all the things that could possibly go awry or just be different in the development in the womb, add in all the damage that can be done from trauma, abuse and fear placed on us as we grow into adults, and after we are grown...Pack it all into human body's and tell us to coexist in a peaceful manner. Seriously!!!...LOL....Maybe the wisest of the human race is Old Maids and Confirmed Bachelors.....Sure would be boring though LOL....
What our differences really do is set us up for failure, because human's are so selfish when it comes to something we place great importance on.
If I walk into the mall shopping w/ my wife, and she is thinking marathon and I'm thinking find it, get it, and go....Somebody has got to adjust their thinking or instant conflict....
If we go to a theme or water park and she is thinking shut it down, and I'm thinking Lord give me patients to deal w/ this for a couple of hours...somebody has got to adjust their thinking...or instant conflict...
If we walk into the bedroom and she is thinking; lets get this over with, and I'm thinking a marathon of red hot body fluid swapping....Somebody's got to adjust their thinking or we might as well keep our pants on....
Pet or no Pet?, Chinese or Japanese?, Sports or Call the midwife?....You choose, conflict or adjust? When I finally accepted she wasn't born w/ a mind that can rest or not have an opinion about everything and fight to the death over it, and I was too!!!...It didn't take me to many years to understand if this marriage is going to work, this dog had to learn a few new tricks....Adjust my thinking, and Accept hers....I have also learned to say no thank you w/ Joy instead of consternation...Mercy & Compassion? You bet...)...and whether we recognize it or not, it's working both ways...Even us self proclaimed normal ones screw up, and more often than we're aware of to...Jeremiah said the heart of man is deceitful above all things; and desperately wicked; who can know it??
Anyone who can't See and Accept the limitations of what is packed into their flesh; especially as it relates to their spouses will never have much of a chance at a peaceful existence where the goal is for 2 to =1....Just my thoughts....
C
C...You and I Share One Thing in Common
Submitted by kellyj on
...and probably a lot more if we were to compare notes. But the one thing here just for starters...
If I walk into the mall shopping.......... I'm thinking find it, get it, ( and then get out of there as fast as possible? ) LOL No hyper focus needed....if I need a pair of pants.....Levis have the size marked right on the back label sewed right into the pants..I don;t even need to try them on!! LOL
Here's what I have to remember. Those who don't have ADHD....really only need to know a couple of simple concepts if you can actually get those firmly in your head and completely accepted as "normal:" for us? And once you can...if you can....knowing just those few things that are actually accurate and not what you think it is...that's really all you need to know as far as the "whys" of ADHD are concerned and all the reasons there are?
Even my T has told my wife....."he's really simple to figure out" And he's right....I'm pretty easy in many ways. Easy is good....just like shopping for Levis. lol I'm about the least "picky" or "finicky"...person on the planet. I'll eat just about anything....just about anywhere.. as long as there aren't rodents scurrying about....I'm good. lol If the beer isn't cold....Okay, I'm still good...I'll drink it anyway!
The part about learning about all the science and things that go into why I do things and what is causing what? That's for me to know....so I can do something about it? That's the part of the three legs of treatment and #1 is education. Knowledge is power so I can do something to head these things off?
But just the other day...my wife and I were talking about things which is happening more and more all the time. I never bring it up...but if she wants to know...she'll ask or wonder what is up with something? And she admitted to me now.....after enough time has passed...that she has a real problem sometimes not seeing the things I do that are related to ADHD and paying attention ( or not )......and sometimes.... she can't get past feeling like I do things on purpose or for a reason? ( and the reason is to piss her off or offend her as she thinks? )
But get this. When I asked her to give me an example...she said "well, sometimes when we eat together....you bump me with your elbow when I'm sitting right next to you." I had to laugh because here's the deal on that one. My wife...has real "space issues". Not just with me...but with everyone. And she's really super sensitive to people touching her at all. Like if you were at a Basketball game, or a movie or music concert.
In fact....we just went to a concert last month ( Steve Miller ) and it was outside in a really nice venue and we had good seats right down in the box seat area where you actually had enough room to move around a little. When we sat down next to another couple, with the gentlemen sitting next to her...she immediately turned to him and said "wow...it feels like we're having a sex orgy here....they've got us all packed in here on top of each other there's no room to move." lol And I've got my hand up on my forehead kind of looking at the ground and trying not to say anything!! lol We traded places shorty after so she could sit next to our friends which I could care less. I'm easy.
And only a few weeks earlier with the same friends...we went to Cirque du Soleil in another really nice venue and my wife sat behind me instead of in her seat....because there was no one sitting next to her in the row behind us and that way she didn't have to be "touching anyone". lol
So when she said that sometimes I bump her with my elbow when we eat together....I reminded her of this and asked...:" am actually bumping you with my elbow...or am I just making contact and "touching you " with my elbow?" She had to think about this for a moment...and then conceded that I sit too close to her sometimes and she doesn't like to be "touched with other peoples elbows" while she's eating.
I said.." eating???"
"Well.....that and a whole lot of other times I guess. I see what you're saying." lol
OMG Yes!!!! It's Okay to touch her or get near to her or touch her with any other body part....but not with your elbows. She has a thing with elbows that registers....OFFENCE!! And any time we go anywhere with normal seating like in a sports arena or the like...there's only one arm rest for two people and this is completely unacceptable!!! lol
I have no idea...what this is...but it really doesn't matter? All I need to know is "elbows"...and then try and remember this? In my life time of life times.....I have never had anyone come to me with that one...but like I said....all I have to know is not to touch her with my elbow...and we'll be just fine. LOL
But the most important aspect here was what she said in bringing this up...in that, she wasn't sure...if I was "bumping" on purpose just to piss her off..and was actually thinking I might be doing this...just to upset her? On purpose? The same as the man she felt was about to have sex with her because his elbows were touching her's? LOL
But in her case as she was working through this in her head....that she was equating "elbow touching"....with me ...just not paying attention because of the "not paying attention" aspect of having ADHD?
The problem with this is....I'd have to know that touching elbows is an "offense" in the first place....before I could pay attention to it? ( or not? )
All I'm really sure about here is....elbow touching is not on the list of ADHD symptom that I've heard before..and I'm not the only one who she's been uncomfortable with ...so I can easily see this....not assume it's me, not get defensive...and just let it go? The more I know about having ADHD myself....the more I can put things in their proper perspective and just let it go. Especially in the case of the bumping elbows.LOL
The "list" she's got in these things is LONG. And my list in these kinds of things is almost non-existent? So when my T told my wife...I was "easy".....she's begun to notice this more and more and not get upset? In fact...just the other day..she said out of the blue " You are really good about not getting upset with these things like I do." Which was kind of an understatement since my list along these lines has nothing on it!! LOL
What are you gonna do? lol
J
Levi's....J
Submitted by c ur self on
Just be sure to take down that 3 digit style number next to size stamp, if your not going to try them on....Levi's makes 13 styles for men and 7 for women....Nothing is that simple LOL.....
I'm sure we have plenty in common....
I don't like the single arm rests either, not so much that contact is being made, but, more for how it's perceived and the fact I don't want to make the other person uncomfortable thinking I want to hog it, if I thoughtlessly put my arm on it....I shoot for movies on weeknights just to avoid crowds for many reason's....But like you, I can adjust when necessary...Do we have a choice?
When it comes to adhd and other things that seem to be just part of our spouses way of living or I should say that is just who they are....It is so easy to misinterpret things on so many levels....So we can be offensive to others who do not suffer or deal with the same things I might be, or I might be experiencing from my spouse.....
Painting with a broad brush is just par for the course on this site sometimes, and no one understands that better than you....People who love their spouse, but hates what is being pumped out each day in certain behaviors that make it almost impossible to have calm peaceful communication and intimacy, can just be so damaging to the psyche....And that is understandable...
Some people's lives just consume them, bottom line...It can make for quiet a lonely existence for the spouse....Some times there is no answer, or way to fix it....Unless we can fix it with in us, with managing the thoughts we think about it.....What destroys me at time is how I allow my mind to think about things...Not the things themselves....
Edit....The reason we don't want to accept what is right in front of us....because at the point we fully accept the reality of it all, It puts the ball squarely in our court....In other words we have do something about it....Keep on bitching, complaining, and playing the victim....Or shut up and put our big boy and big girl Levis' on....
C
Yep....When Faced With Reality....We all Have Choices
Submitted by kellyj on
Another one of my T's famous quotes about being a Victim? "The only true Victims in this world...are children. They have no choice...but we do as adults. Always. We can leave, stay or do anything we want? Right now this very minute...and no one can stop us since...we can survive on our owns without our parents. Children...cannot do this? Sometimes "reality"...does make it seem this way due to circumstances....but circumstances is not "another human being"....it's just the situation you find yourself in? But we always have a choice...even then. Time to put the big boy/girl pants on....you always have a choice?
This just happened last night...so I can give you a good example of a choice I made. My wife and I are having a normal calm conversation and it's going just fine. My wife gives me her point of view on the topic...and I am in full agreement with everything she's saying. I am not feeling adversarial, or confront or taking offense of anything she's saying...but she is not including the ( other half of the picture ) and made an attempt to contribute by adding this into it by mistake. Saying....normally...if I was with one of my friends and we were just discussing a topic that neither one of us is personally invested in....you could do this without a problem and there would be a discussing of all aspects of any topic by including different points of view into it right? Any intellectual discussion on this level...would be open for discussion and normally...both people would contribute their own ideas into it...no matter what they are?
What I forgot....was that my wife...has an aversion to this and I always seem to step right into this trap...before I realized it's too late and now were arguing about nothing...as far as I'm concerned? Which is just plain stupid to do....when it's not even important? But somehow....my wife feels like I am "intruding" into what she believes ( as she always uses that term..."believes" ) like as if...you're not really sure...so you have to believe it instead? As if...I am making a statement about her...and her "beleifs" which again..is stupid because this is just thoughts about things on a topic...and offering different points of veiw is just looking at the whole picture and seeing it from different angels? This ...is what my wife...HATES. Seeing things...from different angles....even if you are sitting there...telling her.....I agree with you? LOL How can you get angry with someone...for agreeing with you? lol But that's not what she hears? What she hears is....on being contrary to her, or I am being adversarial to her, or I am being the opposite of her....as in....oppositional? I think that's it right there? She hears opposition....with any point of view that is not in total agreement with hers and doesn't want to hear it ever? Denial again. Denial of the whole story...and only wants to talk about or hear one side...the side she's on. And in this case....I was on her side...and just having a discussion and was trying to make a point by offering the opposing side...( the one I was not on?? LOL ) in order to discuss this on a deeper level? That was my mistake but an understandable one...since what I normally experience with say my friends..is not what I experience with my wife and I know this already?
But what I'm not going to do...is walk on eggshells. That....being "nice" part and not doing what I would normally do...and be afraid of doing it in fear she's not going to like it? I don't really care if she likes it or not...but like I was saying...I'm not invested in it...so I don't really care one way or the other? I'm easy...right? Easy doesn't mean being a door mat or being taken advantage of however? Easy just means...not attached or not invested and I can take it or leave it....that makes me easy?
So ....as is the norm here....we're going along and then suddenly...my wife starts telling me what I'm doing. She's not mirroring me...she's "telling me"..and what she did..and how she did this...was to stop me mid sentence (again) before I had even made the point that I was trying to make in favor of everything she was saying...and said " I had a bad day at work..and I want to come home and have my partner here me and not bring me down and that's what you're doing."
I told you what I was doing...so this is NOT what I was doing. Accusations again...here we go!!! lol I said " you know....I'm going to stop now. I heard what you just said...and as I heard you....you said " I'm bring you down". "I" ( as in me ) am not doing anything to you....but I respect that what I'm saying is bring you down..and that's enough for now. I don't want to continue saying anything more..even if I haven't made the point I was trying to make with you....but that's not what's important. I hear you and what you are saying."
So I stopped...before she stopped me which was exactly where this was going? I also told her ( which is true ) that I really don't understand what I was saying was a problem but that doesn't matter...what matters is that it's bring you down. So we stopped...as I thought? lol
Withing 3 minutes...she started right in again...with the same topic as before...so now I'm thinking...."oh...she doesn't want to stop? Okay...I guess it's Okay to talk about this some more?" That was my critical error in not remembering? I just got baited again..and I stepped right into it? and now...comes all these projections of what I'm doing to cause her problems, how she had a bad day and I'm not doing what she needs, and how I doing this...and I'm doing that...and how she's not being heard and how I'm bring her down and how it's my job to hear her and how we ALWAYS end up here..and how life is so horrible and her day was horrible and she feels horrible and it's all horrible and the sky is falling and the apocalypse is nie....and and and......" LOL I'm must kidding about the apocalypse...but it is what it felt like on the receiving end of this. So I'm listening to this..and she starts getting really insulting as we get nearer to the apocalypse and I'm doing this to her (classic Victim mentality ) and I actually got angry and stopped her from this chastising I was getting. It always ( and it does ) end up in this place if one word one sentence...triggers these catastrophic moments she has? She's dong all of this...on her own....I stopped and told her why I stopped but she kept on going anyway...even though it was me who was "bringing her down?' I wasn't doing this to her...she was doing this all by herself and doing a fine job at it as well? Spiraling down down down....where all roads lead to the apocalypse no mater what topic your on? You can't even offer...a different opinion or point of view....without this happening? What she wants...is you to agree with her in everything...and never have an original "thought" of your own that might be different? The completely amazing thing here was....I was agreeing with her and was only contributing to what she was saying...by adding my own two bits into it? I forgot....."can we talk"....means....her talking...and me just listening? lol And what I was hearing...was he repeating the same thing she said...over and over?
C....I have to thank you...for putting me onto Alexythymia. I realize....she can't say what her feelings are and the only way she can express them...is to talk about them over and over? She not expressing her feelings....she "telling them to you without including what they are? This is her just purging...vocally...which is why I think...she is so invested in a topic that is not related to her in any way? And why she gets so confused on what an opinion is ( she doesn't really know sometimes? ) and calls things by one definition...when she's actually meaning another one? She really has no idea really and why if you even mention one word like..." you mean.....?"...that this is saying she's stupid just to ask for clarification? That's all I'm doing is just asking for clarification because I'm not understanding what she's saying? And even...not understanding what she's saying...is an offense to her so now what? LOL
After a 1/2 hour....of her going on and on about what I was doing..and how I was doing it wrong..and then me getting angry with her and telling her she is being insulting and I wanted to stop earlier and she wouldn't stop..and told her that I did that to avoid this but even that didn't work and brought her right back to the place of no return when she stopped me and told me I was bringing her down...which was why I stopped? whew!! She finally got to the place where she said...:" well....I was just trying to get you to see my point of view and expanding what we were saying to see the big picture."
And I said...." you mean, exactly what I was doing...when you interrupted me because you said I was bringing you down? Which I wasn't doing anything...but what I said...as you say....was bringing you down? The exact point I was trying to make in agreement with you but you stopped me...and now...here you are making the very point that you said...was bringing you down...but now your making this exact point now yourself here with me .....the one, if you had not interrupted me to tell me I was bringing you down....would have said it and none of this wouldn't have happened....right this minute? You interupted me, unsulted me, told me what I was doing and then went through this total melt down of the subject and all of this that you say...we always end up here? But now ......this is not bringing you down to make the same point....that I never got to make...because you said it was bringing you down when I attempted to make it but never finished because I stopped...because I heard you..and I was listening to you? You mean that one?"
(pause) lol
But this was the success in all of this...because none of this is anything new. She didn't shut down for once. And she said..." I have conversations in my head ahead of time...when I think about us getting together and talking." ( "can we talk"....OMG. She just admitted it finally!!! Yea!!!!! )
She said " I do this a lot..and do this with other people but it always seems to work out more the way I want it to with them...but not with you?"
Yea!!!!! Another big Yea!!!!! lol
I said...."well that's easy. Other people aren't invested in an intimate relationship with you...they don't care all that much one way or the other...and you're caring a whole lot and have a lot invested and a lot at stake here. You're applying ...other people to me...and then being disappointed when it doesn't work out the way you want. Besides....all those conversations you have in your head ahead of time...is all made up in your head anyway? You just made that up...but you're expecting other people with do it...just like you imagined or what you....envisioned it would be like?"
"I guess your right. That's just me ...doing that thing ( our T ) discussed with me about magical thinking. That was just magical thinking on my part."
press play here>>>>>>>>https://youtu.be/Hle1A1yP2ZQ
J
Sounds like one of ours....
Submitted by c ur self on
Most conversations that turn to arguments with us is because of the reason's you've list...She can say something she thinks about a subject or a life situation and I will listen. My mind then takes her information and formulates a reply...So I give her my thoughts about the subject she just gave me her thoughts on....But she hardly ever is able to hear my thoughts in general terms...She seems to always assign my general surmising about the subject directly to herself...I'm like, Hey!...I'm not talking about you, just like you were not talking about me...My general feelings are just that...I listened to you tell me your thoughts and feelings and I just shared mine...It's just our general thoughts....It's not personal or about you....Then it's on...No way she can discuss any thing half way sensitive and not take my over all general opinion as just a fact of how I feel....It's just baggage...I should no better, but, I want be walking on eggshells...She has ever right to not talk to me, but, I'm going to always be honest....
If a person can't respect another person's true feelings, or they are looking for a sugar coated political statement...I'm probably not the person you want to ask anything....
C
I'm Getting Better at Reading This C....But
Submitted by kellyj on
Where it starts to get crazy ( crazy making? )....is just what you said. I'm not talking about her at all...but she hears most things as if you are and applying it to her? This really is difficult to have a conversation with...when you are just expounding on something...and somehow it comes back to her in some kind of offense? The crazy making part though...is when she starts accusing me of doing what she's doing...that I'm not doing? Which I'm pretty sure at this stage....this is really truly pure projection and nothing else?
The best way I can describe this...is guilt by association? What I've heard in theory before...about "Homo-phobes" or someone who hates gays? Who is actually hating themselves for having feelings along these lines themselves or may even be in denial that they themselves are gay and are doing everything in their power to not be this way and hate themselves for it...but that actually gets projected onto gays instead of themselves in kind of a fixation about this...and really thinks and talks about how much they hate gays and are really active and aggressive about it but....deep down....they are this way themselves and they know it on some level?
Honestly....it may even be worse with me? My wife even reports that she has had more issues with her getting angry with me more than other men but I have this sneaking suspicion ( from everything I've heard from her past relationships ) that a lot of these men from the sound of it... really not very good to her in a lot of ways that I am so much more attuned to and so much more open minded about? In fact...she'll say that too...but is more angry with me which makes no sense what so ever? The one thing that really stands out which is so hard to get past is that I have to be so humble...to a patronizing level...that I can almost not say anything "good" about myself at all....unless she will shoot me down and throwing that in your face like it's a bad thing? But at the same time...showing no empathy or compassion for my weakness's either?
I told here jus the other day that this is getting old..and I'm not going to down play myself or anything that do well ( 100% ) and just cow tow to this thing she has since it's really brings me down. I even used those words which only days later...she throws out last night...that I was "bringing her down" by talking about a different point of view?
If you could apply this to what I was saying about a Homo-phobe? It's like....I'm the openly Gay man....but she is like a Gay man whos in denial and hates all Gays because of it. If I even mention that I'm Gay since ....this creates a problem for her ( as if? ) But along the same lines of thinking about this and applying the same analogy?
I'm like a Gay man who's been out for a long time..and has no problem with being openly Gay...who's with a homo-phobe ( who's really Gay ) who openly hates Gays....but in reality...who hates themselves for being this way themselves?
Talk about crazy making? No win for losing there I'm afraid especially...and if the topic has anything to do with being Gays....being compassionate to Gays...or having anything positive to say about Gays...and your Gay yourself? Hoo boy....the trigger and hoops you have to remember...are staggering!!! LOL
I'm solidly hetro sexual by the way with no feelings of negativity at all along these lines but have a I have a couple of friends who are....and I say live and let live. We talked about this very thing...and they seem to feel this is what this is more often than one might think? I have to take their word on it...but it does seem to make sense especially when I'm getting this same sense so strongly and why this might be the dynamic going on that my wife just can't see in herself ? Not about sexual orientation....about a bias towards ADHD...because she has it and is in denial?
I'm not going to walking on egg shells either.....but I'm not going to fight about it? She will just need to learn to get over it...but not saying anything and allowing her to chastise me non stop for or constantly ( even for more that a few minutes now)..is not what I'm willing to put up with?
This is such a fine line to walk...but I'm getting better at tight rope walking all the time!! Before you know it...I'll be doing summer salts...with no problem what so ever. LOL
J
I think we go through stages.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I think we go through stages w/ this in our marriages....We both can get hung up in a stage and the other has moved on....In the past, because communication was not there for us...Fear was!...I was afraid to approach any type of sensitive subject, so I would try to throw out some general statement based on my view of truth...She is not stupid..LOL....She caught on to that...So even if the point was a truth she would agree with in a calm moment....She knew I was trying to indirectly serve it to her so she would get upset about the dishonest way I was trying to communicate...So once I repented and got healing for that and learned to moved on w/o the fear I moved into a different stage of wellness...But, it doesn't necessarily mean that she has been able to move on. And I must accept some responsibility for that....But as the fear and eggshells has gotten traded for acceptance and the reality of live and let live, we can move forward to the next stage of trust in communication with the relationship....
I think it works this away with most things; Positive and Negative.....If you set up a sliding scale (1-10 ) for things like....Trust....Feeling Loved...Desire for fellowship and sharing...Sexual desire....Where the marriage relationship is on our priority (heart list) list....Feeling Respected....and so on....I think if 1 is completely Dysfunctional with O healthy connection and 10 being a marriage made in heaven...I think we can grade ourselves with a little effort and introspection and honesty....So if she is a 4 on trust and I'm a 8 or 9....Its going to come out....If she's a 8 or 9 on desire for fellowship and sharing and I'm a 4 then it will be obvious....
So if each number is a stage....we have to look at each area and say what is causing either one of us to be stuck in a low number or stage....I think many time it's by choice...Sometimes we can confuse things or even worse make an excuse for not moving up the scale because we love Independence or some other large hindrance to 2=1, so we just make an excuse for our rebellion by blaming it on our partner....But if we have a conscience at all, we will eventually see what that causes, and we will go ahead and move on or repent and start moving up numbers,...a more healthy stage....
Other times it's not by choice, a low number may just be the product of nurture or abuse....Especially in late life marriages....If a person has been used for others selfish benefits when they were invested in a honest loving way....It makes for deep scares....And if the pain of that is never confronted and healing allowed to come in..We may never be able to move up the scale in those area's, whether it's the inability to trust, sexual desire or it could effect many things that hinder a healthy loving marriage....
C