I was reading an article on Yahoo Health, with quotes from Melissa Orlov. I have read this information before, heard this before, and in my experience have been trying to align it with my marriage.
"One of the most common patterns in an ADHD relationship is that one partner does a disproportionate amount of work in the household, because it’s equally difficult for people with the disorder to initiate tasks and to complete them. One partner is always nagging; the other is always defensive.'
Definitely saw this happen. Living in the house, which is both our living space and the place of the construction business, and raising 2 children, I was usually striving to get some sort of semblance of a schedule or routine. I could come up with plenty of plans and routines - as long as I also was the one to try to enforce them. This included work related schedules, marriage schedules, school schedules, chore schedules, . . . . . . .and it did not work. Exactly as she said:
“Household chores and childcare are typically unstructured, and creating a structure to do something in is typically not an ADHD strong point,” Orlov explains.
What I am struggling to sort out in my brains is this : In addition, Orlov often spots what she calls the “parent-child” dynamic, ***********where the non-ADHD partner is in a dominant role over the ADHD spouse. ************* “That’s an unhealthy dynamic for the relationship,” she says. Adding to this problem is the easily distracted nature of the ADHD spouse, which can be misinterpreted as a lack of romantic interest.
I easily see how I filled the mother role, doing all the household chores that were left undone, take care of my spouse - buying clothes, washing clothes, buying shoes when his wore out, buying socks and underwear when his were full of holes, mending his clothes, buying coats, toiletries, etc., etc., paying the bills, taking care of the finances, etc.
This is the sentence I am chomping at the bit to understand: ***********where the non-ADHD partner is in a dominant role over the ADHD spouse. ************* How was I the dominant one when I felt very passive, changed all my ideals and wants and dreams and did what he wanted when he wanted so he would not be angry? And I always assumed guilt - that issues were my fault, and if I could just get it right, our marriage would thrive.
Wondering how that applies,
Liz
I disagree that the non-ADHD
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I disagree that the non-ADHD partner is in the dominant role in this pattern. I think the person with ADHD is dominant because his or her decision to not act and not contribute leaves the non-ADHD partner with no or few choices, if she or he wants to have a functioning, law-abiding, nonbankrupt family.
This is very true.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
The ADHD spouse/parent often "forces" the non-ADHD spouse/parent to do "both shares" of the work. The ADHD spouse CHOSE that spouse because he/she recognized that he/she could get that spouse to do "both shares" of the work.
The ADHD person is often SPOILED. Yes, SPOILED. Indulged, allowed to do as he/she pleased from a young age. That's not always true. In the case of JJ, his dad was very abusive, but in many cases it is. The ADHD person learns how to "play" others...appear helpless, appear tired, sick, whatever, so that others do their share of the work for them.
Top From the Bottom OW
Submitted by kellyj on
OW...I agree with you here. A person can be "top from the bottom" if you understand the sexual definition, and apply it to any relationship. Without explaining the concept...I think this phenomenon can be manifested by intention or not.....not with intention, doesn't not imply that it doesn't exist (or even if you aren't aware of it) ....the phrase that's describing this phenomenon in a somewhat "intentional sexual fetish" (if that's the case)....the underlying desire is to play out this very thing with the person at the bottom (or appearing weaker or submissive ) but is actually the one "pulling the strings".
Within that metaphor.....from a "position of power" in this relationship is the one in control...but not in the usual or expected norm (or driven by nature perhaps?)... but out of a need to be this way driven by a learned way of survival or maladaptive strategies that play out in this weird reversal and strong desire to maintain it and pursue it even if it's not healthy for them or even to their own detriment (excluding the sexual act with intention here).
Wow...that reads like someone who really knows a lot about this but in reality.....I have no real understanding of the motivation or desire or why this works for someone in this way as far as a fetish goes since this is not for me but to each their own in that respect. But I do know this happens and it has happened to me (on both sides alternatively in different relationships) in the sense of wielding power to get your needs met in the only way they/you learned how at the time. If it worked in the past....it should work again and simply not understanding or being able to see this. It certainly is not with intention on either side to be this way if that is the case.....but just from my experience in the past, both people are pretty miserable in the end. I think equally so?
If you're wielding you're power and using it well....it's a healthy thing in a give and take relationship. If your abusing your power ( even without intention ) out of weakness and justification....your abusing the other person at the same time. The fact remains that the other person was not given the opportunity to make that choice if they were not asked or told so up front. I think that's the difference and why intention (back to the sexual act in comparison) makes this a distinct difference between the two.
Even within the sexual act.....both partners are not only doing it with intention....but they are both enjoying it equally together simultaneously! I think that's a fair statement right there. I also think that this is true for many but there are also other possibilities to consider here as well? It is a dynamic that is created by both people and it changes for each person by changing the person you are with. Like I said....I've been on both sides of this at different times myself with no intention what so ever on my part or even any awareness of any of this.... and yet, it still happened seemingly all by itself? Go figure?
J
I am looking at this in a totally different frame of mind
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
So, overwhelmed wife and J,
I was asking this question from an honest, seeking-for-truth, position. I do not want to point fingers, I do not want to use any odd sexual innuendoes. I went to Google that description used by J, and didn't even finish reading it.
No one can "force" anyone to do anything. I in no way- no how - believe my spouse chose me because he knew I was a push over. After so many years - yes, I do believe he knew he could manipulate situations with his anger. Do I think he purposed to do that? No, I do not. I think it is just how it evolved.
Once I realized it, it was me who said, "No more."
My spouse was not spoiled. I 100% think I enabled his behavior - only because I thought I was doing something wrong. Now I know better and I do better.
What I want, what I hope, what I dream, is that by being 100% true to who Liz is, by being strong yet kind, by being honest with good boundaries, I can somehow realize change for the better in how my relationship with my spouse works. And, if that is not possible, than we can part on the terms of knowing we both did everything we could,, and the chasm that grew between us could not be bridged. I honestly hope tht is NOT the case.
All I hope and dream is to do all the emotional work necessary to get to the place where we can share our lives. I do not want to be warring factions. I do not want to think I am better/cured/smarter/wiser - I want us to be on the same playing field - with our respective strengths - working together.
I really hate that he is struggling and hurting in trying to figure this stuff out for himself. I really believe I have to pull back and let his work on stuff - until maybe he can see it clearly.
I do not want to trash him, belittle him, demean him. MANY people who are not ADHD are users - an abusers. It is not an ADHD trait.
I want a clear answer - not from a stance of defensive, nor "How can I-LIZ-Mrs. Wonderful - be accused of being dominant".
I did not understand Symptom-Response-Response. Now, I do. I did not understand Parent/Child dynamic. Now I do. So, now I am curious about the dominant position. Is it always? Is it usually? Is it something I don;t see in myself?
Just want clarity.
I have spent so many an hour, week, month, years in trying to understand all that is happening. I am running out of want-to-any-more. Just tired.
Liz
Yes. You're right. I always
Submitted by hanchar on
Yes. You're right. I always feel like the dominant, aggressive, organised, demanding, nagging mother but ADHD is almost passive aggressive. It feels like my husband's inaction leaves me with no choice. People are always telling me to surrender, let him pick up the slack etc but I fear that we will go bankrupt and the house will fall down if I do that. :(
With age comes wisdom
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
hanchar,
I got the same same sort of input - do not do things that are his responsibility - and he will pick up the slack. But it did not work that way.
I was asking this question: How do I get/encourage/force/make/manipulate/trick him into doing his fair share? The question should have been: Why doesn't/can't/won't he do his share of these responsibilities?
I felt I was living with a very passive aggressive man. My spouse would/could/did not say no. To any request. It was really a waiting game to see if he would actually fulfill the request. And then after a while, I was pulling my hair out wondering why in the Sam Hill he didn't just say "Sorry, I do not have time." In the end, when I was hot and angry that he didn't do something I had asked, and he agreed to do, then the tables got turned and he got angry at me, with all sorts of reasons and excuses as to why he was too busy, and how I should have known better than ask, etc., etc., etc.
Liz
Liz it takes two....
Submitted by c ur self on
Liz these statements you have listed can be good information or good reminders for those who are seeking it.....But, that is all...They cannot produce positive results unless they are put to work in a relationship as a tool by two people...
We can stand in a circle and discuss the proper way to see/saw, but unless two butts climb on and work in unison, we never experience the beauty of a seesaw....
"You can dodge your responsibilities, but you can't dodge the consequences of dodging your responsibilities"
C
Looking deeper
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
C,
I fully agree. What I am looking at is Liz's actions. While in the distant past, I had a really poor image of my abilities, now I accept me, like me, and embrace me - sharp edges (LOVE that description Melissa put on here a few weeks back) and all.
No one wants to be dominated. I myself had felt that way. I had allowed myself to be controlled and manipulated by my spouse's anger.
I am not blaming myself, yet again, for causing disruption. I am just trying to get a clearer picture of this 'dominant person' situation. To me, if I was a dominant person, the yard would be tidy, the stuff would get put away, we would have a household that had at least a basic time schedule that respected all people who live and work here. I was not afraid 'of my spouse,' yet I was intimidated/afraid of his anger. I made a lot of poor choices to keep it at bay - and to keep him happy. Now I understand/believe/realize that his anger is something with which he needs to deal. He has a lot built up - and the fear of it letting go at the wrong time, in the wrong way, directed toward the wrong person - - -yes indeed I am scared of that. I have witnessed it leak out, at a slight provocation, that was not my intent, however it was how he took/received it. And when that occurs, there is no explaining or justifying my actions. And at this point in time, it actually gets me pissed, because,I do not know what to do with it. I can compare it to living with a ticking time bomb - it is not very comfortable. Yet another eggshell situation. His INTENT may be pure. Yet without having that anger understood and dissipated and dealt with, I really have a concern that it will get loose, and while his INTENT may not be be hurt someone - he just may, and that would be horrible for both him - and the object/person at which received the fallout.
"You can dodge your responsibilities, but you can't dodge the consequences of dodging your responsibilities" I had set the tone to be the enabler of my spouse not learning to deal with his anger. I just made it all better. So, okay, I see the error of that, and no longer do it. So, me, Liz, I need to find what to do for me when I see the storm brewing. I do indeed feel great empathy for him. I just am wiser now. I didn't cause it. I can't control it. And I can't fix it. Yet, I am unsure of steps for LIZ to take.
Seeking,
Liz
I understand....
Submitted by c ur self on
I think what you did was the natural tendency for most of us...When there is dysfunction of any form in our spouse (I believe everyone has their own personal battles) we work around it the best we can...When Anger is present fear usually is also...So the results of working around things can easily lead to enabling....I like what you're doing for yourself though, it's encouraging...
C
Anger and Intent
Submitted by Wifelife88 on
His INTENT may be pure. Yet without having that anger understood and dissipated and dealt with, I really have a concern that it will get loose, and while his INTENT may not be be hurt someone - he just may, and that would be horrible for both him - and the object/person at which received the fallout.
Liz, this exact thing has been weighing on my mind lately. It is an incredibly difficult thought process to describe to others, let alone my husband. I know that the anger and dislike of me comes not from the man I married but the man that he has become. That is not the man that I love. The anger can be so intense. At times his disdain of what I do and achieve is so strong. And so intensely totally focused on me.
His intent is not to hurt anyone. He believes he is a gentle man. I agree that in his heart and soul he is. But then the angry man erupts. He is the man that I see and my children see.
We have not had a violent marriage as such. He does not beat me or hurt me or push me around. He has thrown many items and broken a few windows. But he has an amazing power that when unleashed gives you the impression he could flip a car.
And the question? The question that my rational self knows is most probably ridiculous … If the anger truly takes hold, does he have the capacity to kill me?
My thoughts.....
Submitted by c ur self on
In my case Anger isn't the problem. Any honest person will tell you they get angry. I've read many post on this forum written about their angry spouses...Most of these posts have been filled with emotion...(!!!!!CAPS ETC)...It's obvious they are angry that their efforts haven't been effective to change it. Or some just vent here out of their fear to address it.
When a mind is in denial or is unwilling to be accountable for how their living of life is effecting others then you have a person who isn't capable of a healthy relationship. And if you continue to press into this life you will deal with emotions in your own life...Fear, bitterness, Anger, stress, frustrations etc...If I do not live aware of my emotions; recognize & control these emotions, ask myself why am I feeling these emotions? Then do what I need to do to channel it into a positive...Even if the answer for solving it ends communications at the level I want them to be...If I'm not willing to walk down the only road available (accept reality) for me peace, then I will continue to experience the same things.
Much of my anger has been sponsored by my W's behavior. I tried for several years to channel it into a positive, by attempting to verbally communication, analyze it and rationalize how we got off track..But, when a person refuses to accept responsibly for their actions (Denial) it never ended well for us...So their was no effective way to communicate and move on in a positive manner...
Sadly I'm a slow learner. (want the fairy tell, not the reality) I've finally realized that unless I expect, and accept her child like responsibility levels toward the mundane things in life, disrespect, a wife who has shown no real propensity to desire the role of a wife, then I'm going to be effective and emotional...
So now it's quiet here....
C
C, first to you
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...duplicate post
C, first to you
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I was on this forum awhile, with good cause, dealing with ADHD in a new relation, the whole thing of it unknown, more than baffling. But given what's going on offline, I was spending time I didnt have writing and thinking. So had to go read only. And I have been, daily. i wanted to tell you and all that come to talk things over, you've made community online. No small thing.
"if you continue to press into this life, you will deal with your emotions". Isn't that true.
Hi...NowOrNever....
Submitted by c ur self on
Thank You! We need each other, we need community, I need accountability...
C
RE: Intention and Anger
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Wife88,
This is a really good question (there are no stupid questions;)
The answer? Yes...of course he has the capacity to kill you. So do you....anytime you choose. How easy would that be? I can think of hundreds of ways if you gave me the chance (not that I think about it but yes...if you asked me too)
One of my favorite lines in one of my favorite movies..."Chinatown". In John Huston's (Cross) (epically cynical and most memorably disturbing scenes) poignantly and chillingly displays his own denial in a conversation he was having with Jack Nicholson (Gettes) in reference (and partial admission) to him murdering someone and having an incestuous relationship with his own daughter (Faye Dunaway) and having a child from that relationship. The reality of his actions when confronted with them is this response.
Cross: I don't blame myself. You see, Mr. Gits, most people never have to face the fact that at the right time, the right place, they're capable of anything.
Comparing what you said here ...."But he has an amazing power that when unleashed gives you the impression he could flip a car."
Just because you can...doesn't mean you will. Intention and capacity are two different things. In the case of Mr Cross (John Huston)...he was a power hungry evil man who's intentions were clear to everyone and he made no bones about it....even to the point of saying so straight up on a daily basis by his complete lack of empathy and ability to justify anything he did as necessary to his cause.....that being of himself at every turn in the road.
(taken from a critique of the movie) "Cross' lust for power is conjoined with his more carnal lusts for Evelyn, and the land crimes are paralleled by crimes of a more intimate nature behind closed doors; the old man's sunny, “respectable” public image and depraved private life tease the viewer's worst case visions of just how low Hollywood power players will sink to satisfy their fantasies, and how far they'll go to acquire still more wealth. Huston's choices as an actor mirror Polanki and Towne's theme: evil doesn't lurk in the shadows, it walks in daylight. Cross is so arrogant in his crimes, public and private, that he refuses to even acknowledge they are crimes. The land deal is merely his way of commandeering a road into the future, and as for Evelyn and the psychological burdens she has to bear for having Noah Cross as her father, and as more, he can only say, “I don't blame myself.”
Clearly....denial is the center piece here...but what about the motivation? Do you see any cause to suspect that your H's anger is tied to any motivation or intention what so ever? If that were the case.....you might have reason to suspect or fear the worst. But without intention for personal gain....what reason would he have to kill you even if he completely loses his temper and breaks things in a fit of anger or rage? The fact that he breaks "things" instead of you is pretty obvious. Instead of kicking the dog or taking it out on you or another person ( a living breathing thing )....his temper and anger is unleashed immediately on an inanimate object instead every time.
I'm asking a rhetorical question but with the intention of making you see something here. "How do you bridge the gap between and inanimate object (breaking windows etc)...and then apply that to you?"
Not to minimize your fear here....that is very real I am sure and it's not unreasonable when you are afraid to want to protect yourself and ask yourself these questions out of fear. But without thinking this entirely through....the question still remains? How do you jump from one to the other and justify your own fears here?
Let me help your a bit here.......
It is an incredibly difficult thought process to describe to others, let alone my husband. I know that the anger and dislike of me comes not from the man I married but the man that he has become. That is not the man that I love. The anger can be so intense. At times his disdain of what I do and achieve is so strong. And so intensely totally focused on me.
His intent is not to hurt anyone. He believes he is a gentle man. I agree that in his heart and soul he is. But then the angry man erupts. He is the man that I see and my children see.
We have not had a violent marriage as such. He does not beat me or hurt me or push me around. He has thrown many items and broken a few windows.
He is not two men....but one man who is angry at times and then he's not...the man you love did not change....you just don't love him when he is angry (or expresses it in this way) or any other time when he blames you for him being this way. This is denial....not a power hungry man who is evil and will stop at nothing to get what he wants or....when someone he meets makes him angry he sees them as a threat to his goals and therefore must be eliminated. The motivation is for persnal gain....not just an inability to control or maintain composure and emotionality.
If that was true....wouldn't you think he would be coming directly after you and focusing the anger itself on the threat not venting it in the moment on the nearest inanimate object he happens across in an indiscriminate manner?
In no way am I arguing that his anger and the fear it instills in you is not real or justifiable....the argument is only in this case is jumping from an inability to control anger or emotions to having the intention and motivation and trying to combine that with his capacity to kill you and connecting these things all together? I think all the things you said pretty much answers your own question however....the fear you have is what is the most difficult part to process as you said? That much is real for all good reasons and it's not unusual or out of the norm to question these things. Processing it through is the only part that is missing here for you so you can let go of that fear? Very difficult and not unexpected at all.....you can forgive yourself for that much because it would not be normal for you not to feel this way on some level or entertain the thought? Saying....you every right to feel the way you do....but is it the right way to feel and is it based on reality? You do have a choice to make here?
To add one more thing here in light of my comment about 'Top from the bottom" power struggles. The motivation or non-motivation in this case without intention....is from a neurotic compulsion to relieve anxiety and fulfilling this desire by doing it that way. Not the healthiest of ways but none the less...the root cause of this behavior is the desire not to have anxiety and to have more power temporarily or in the moment when all your power appears to be gone. It's from a lack of power and not knowing any other way of getting it that drives it....not the need to have more by any and all means necessary as a daily way of life in respect to Mr Cross in the movie.
"Evil walks in the daylight" was a perfect metaphor to use here saying....the things you mentioned about your husband and what he believes himself (about himself) do not line up with the metaphor at all? In respect to him.....I'm putting my money on an inability to control his anger due to what is known about ADHD and not learning how to express it better not the latter.
I hope that helps?
J
What Is a Fetish?
Submitted by kellyj on
I just had a random thought when I remembered what the exact definition of what a "fetish" is. I didn't know this myself until a few years ago but it is really interesting in relationship to my comment and this discussion about intention and motivation
Fetish
a course of action to which one has an excessive and irrational commitment.
"he had a fetish for writing more opinions each year than any other justice"
a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.
That part I already knew and understood as such....the part that I didn't know which was re-explained to me by my T was (paraphrasing) " a need to have an external object present and included during a sexual encounter in order to have an orgasm because without it.....that person can't have one."
In other words...it is an irrational need in order to have an orgasm where normally.....most people can have one without it being present. That's assuming there is not some other legitimate physiological reason why that person can't have an orgasm that is not caused by this reason alone?
Seeing this from that perspective....it makes it easier to understand something that doesn't seem to make any sense? Like I said....I don't understand this and it doesn't makes sense to me but.....I don't have a problem in this area and don't need an outside object present in order to have an orgasm? All I can do is see this as such and just accept that this is real for someone else even if it's not for me?
J
Makes sense - mindfulness?
Submitted by Wifelife88 on
Yes - thanks for the solid thoughts. My logical mind knows that I am safe, and that's why I am still relatively happily chugging along and not running for the hills.
The thought of the week was timely this week - Thoughts are not reality. Being able to say to yourself ‘just because I fear this thing does not make it real’. Thoughts are not reality…until you confuse them as such and follow with actions that then create the very thing you didn’t want to have happen!
I suppose that there have been a few incidents in our city recently where seemingly 'normal men' - whatever that actually is in reality :) - have killed their families and themselves. It has given me cause to think. I wonder what was the trigger that caused them to take such action. Was it anger? Was it depression? What tipped them over and overrode the moral safety mechanisms that usually protect us.
When there is no hope....
Submitted by c ur self on
Your question is one I also have contemplated over the years...My thoughts...
If an evil mind (carnal) is filled with hopelessness; and you subject it to enough Dysfunction; Drugs, Alcohol, and darkness...Any convictions of morality can be lost if they ever truly existed...Also when someone's idol turns on them this same hopelessness can sponsor so much rage in the moment all ability to think rationally can be lost for a period....
Aha moment
Submitted by notgonnalosemyself (not verified) on
We have found it haven't we, Liz? You sound so much like me after almost 26 years. It is easier to stop punching at the wind and improve on OUR lives since they have so much to work on and only they can decide to stay the same or improve. My H secretly knows his issues, hates himself but puts on that confident, charismatic, and obnoxious persona to the world. The women swoon and the men hate his Alpha male personality. It hasn't changed in all these years and it won't. But guess what, I am changing and getting so strong. His temper is his alone and I walk away since I can't change it, I can't make him see the need for help. I have no pull. But I can walk away from it. He will look back and see nothing of substance in his life, lost jobs, lost friends, more self-loathing because of his self-imposed failings and I will look back and see everything I ever wanted to achieve in my life. This in nothing like what I had planned a marriage would be, who knew? But resilience and ability to embrace my circumstances without allowing them to define me and trap me is my goal now. That 17 yr old bride thought it was her fault but this 43 yr old woman knows better now. Still kind, loving and compassionate but I am putting myself first and no longer waiting around to see what he does before moving forward with my life. Maybe one day he will put his pride aside and get help but I won't beg or hold my breathe anymore. I am going to the gym, joined Weight Watchers, I go to bed at 10 PM after a hot bubble bath with or without him (he goes to bed at 3AM), treat myself (no gits from him or vacations), starting Karaoke again since I love to sing and I have a great job that I have had almost 9 years while every year he loses a job and floats us on hoarded money. If he is not worried, why should I be? If he doesn't feel a disconnect than I have to work passed that otherwise, I am punching at the wind again. To try and make a person see and feel what you do when they are in a different world is so hard and it has to be equally as important to them. Is it lonely? Do I feel neglected? Hell yes.
As far as chores, I do get angry since I work FT and he does what he wants with his day and sees nothing as dirty but I pretend I am single and I do it myself to my satisfaction. I am so done nagging and setting myself up for disappointment. I need to just be stress-free and happy. Life is short. :)
Much love.
It's a catch 22....
Submitted by c ur self on
If you can continue to do this...(Positive view of Self) you may state you are putting yourself first, but, in reality, the best thing for him is to experience you living at peace and emotionally well regardless what's going on with him...
C
Dominant?
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hi, Liz,
Your first post, especially this part of it:
***********where the non-ADHD partner is in a dominant role over the ADHD spouse. ************* How was I the dominant one when I felt very passive, changed all my ideals and wants and dreams and did what he wanted when he wanted so he would not be angry? And I always assumed guilt - that issues were my fault, and if I could just get it right, our marriage would thrive.
Dominant....you know, I wonder what that word intended to refer to, in the original sentence that you quoted.
In the original writer's mind does being dominant require someone else to be passive, or does being passive make one's partner dominant?
Elsewhere on the site, C has brought up codependency. that's dominant (playing the victim or child) / dominant (playing the caretaker), control/control w hen it's happening. Having codependency in my past I'm jumpy as a CAT about ending up in a pair 'o manipulators relationship. I don't want to do THAT, all caps. During the wonderful time, when the relation was his special interest, any unevenness fixer/fixed, caretaker/needy wasn't visible.
I'm not kidding, I'm very unsure what the word "dominant" means, in a relation in which one or both have ADHD...the yin/yang of this kind of relation is something I've never run into before in my life.
Does dominant mean parent in roles of parent/child? In that case "dominant" would have to mean nurturer, teacher ...and the partner, in the final outcome is nurtured and learns... or I at least might as well skip using "parent." Both my partner and I don't incline for me to be the teacher, him the student....or vice versa And it sure isn't my idea of romance to be any man's mother.
Does it mean the one who makes the decisions, keeps the trains running on time, keeps the company from going into the red, heads up the group? In that case "dominant" means the leader. Manager, if the "dominant" one doesn't make decisions for the group. Leader, if the person makes decisions that the group carries out. What if OK one of the two is the manager and decision maker and the pair both want that?
Due to past family history, I thought a lot about this one: What if there is something to confront, work to do, whatever it is, children need to be raised.....and one of the two (for whatever her or his reasons) no-shows. What does that make the one who does the work, caretakes the kids, manages the money, whatever...dominant? You know, the situation in which the army captain is facing a regiment, and says he needs a volunteer to take charge of something, do some extra work, or take a risk, and the entire regiment, except one soldier, steps backward? We had that happen in my family over the worry and care of our very elderly parents in their last years. Someone needed to help them. They were very elderly. All of the siblings but one stepped back, no showed. I think this happens in more than a few families, by the way. I don't think the remaining sib, who ended up making the decisions, doing the work, doing the worrying and paying $ for their needs was dominant.
I guess the "dominant" reference is to whoever executes, whoever goes out there and makes the decision or takes action for the two. Which can lead to the appearance of ordering the other one around. Sure maybe the personally is Type A, authoritarian, whatever personality type to have to have things their way, but not necessarily so.
I sure appreciate what you had built in your question. To me what you said is loaded with life-with-ADHD reality. Anyone who thinks that people without ADHD living around people with ADHD are "normal" are blissfully ignorant or deliberately avoiding taking as real the many declarations of fatigue, worry, frustration, etc etc on this site. As I'm learning rather vividly in my own relation, I have to adapt, and adapt, and adapt and adapt in this relation. For one thing, it's not fixed....he has a lot of ups and downs, and zig zags, lots of rather large noisy life events. On so many days, it's like I'm wading through a movie set with special effects and cannons going off behind me, doors slamming, windows popping open. Well, to that one has to adapt, somehow. How to adapt to that without getting knocked to pieces?
Not give up what's good for me. Oh, I tried that at first, but between the alarms, challenges, shifts, turns, interruptions....the usual variety, I was getting more and more debilitated being the adaptive one. I had. no. more. slack. I had. no. more. time. So I think your question is spot on. How, if you gave up hopes, dreams, adapted, did everyting that you could because you didn't want your husband upset again, was giving up things making you into the ...dominant one?
It's just my opinion, but I don't think that term applies well to what you did, and I don't think it applies to what you describe taht you're doing for yourself now, finding your own balance and your own good ways, and hoping that your husband on his own terms and in his own way, finds his way forward, too. All I know, Liz, about imbalance in relation, is what you've said more than once, and clearly, in some of your other posts, and others, from both sides of the aisle have said it too, on this site...and it shows up in the books:
no one can do both sides of the relation. I also strongly believe, and maybe you wrote it in your posts somewhere too: I cannot make anybody do anything.
...Hard at work on boundaries and self care, myself.
My partner has a lot on him.
Very best wishes to you and your husband. I smile every time I read your signature line.
Last thoughts for awhile
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...I'm still thinking about this issue of controller-controlled and whatever else is in mind when the phrase parent-child is used, Maybe responsible-irresponsible. I'm still in the early years of a relation in which ADHD is involved, still adjusting to not being in that high of the beginning of the relation, when all of the multiple issues of who does/who doesnt do, who accommodates/who doesnt accommodate, who helps/who doesnt help hadnt started cropping up.
So I reread everybody here. I think I got it most clearly from Rosered and Liz: here's Rosered: I disagree that the non-ADHD partner is in the dominant role in this pattern. I think the person with ADHD is dominant because his or her decision to not act and not contribute leaves the non-ADHD partner with no or few choices, if she or he wants to have a functioning, law-abiding, nonbankrupt family.
Attitudes and intents do matter between a couple. They do! That in my opinion is why couples need to talk with each other, ask questions instead of only thinking and monologuing about themselves, and listen, not just oh yeah, and jump to conclusions instead of listening and believing what's said to the point of remembering it. If both sides, not just one, dont tell the truth of their thoughts, and if both sides dont really focus on, listen, believe the answer to the question they just asked....then there no really good avenue for reliably learning the attitudes and motives of the other partner. Without any good idea, meaning it really fits the other person, it's not something that i built up in my head, according to my own design, out of fragments convenient to my in my head design of that person's motives. Without a good Idea of my partner's attitudes and motives, solid because HE truthfully told me his intentions...I'm doomed to solitary in a relationship. I might as well live "parallel lives", something that a woman with ADhd elsewhere on the net said she and her husband were doing, and that she preferred. Ok so learning and believing the other is the communicator of his motive, and that motives matter, yes so important
Back to the various configurations possible of "dominant" "parental." The rubber hits the road in action, not in attitude. What Rosered said, above. If things are going to happen, action needs to be taken. I can have totally innocent motives and attitudes, and not do a damn thing. And not acting is an act, that has consequences and has impact
For me, as I'm struggling to find a healthy way to carry my end of a relationship that is not like anything I've seen before in some parts of it, the rubber hits the road in what I actually do, what he, in real time and space, does. I think that's where people live daily, in actions...all of which have consequences. Every single kiss, every single promise but not doing, every single getting out of your own project to do something for the other who is in momentary need, they all have consequences. That is the cas for me. That is the case for my partnerThat being the case, no-showing does more than leaving the remaining partner holding the bag. It's an act that has an impact on the other partner. In other words there is no little, harmless kid in these adult-adult relations. No put upon victim. Ok, done... I'm obviously processing away on this stuff offline. Thanks, all
Good Morning...NowOrNever
Submitted by c ur self on
(Attitudes and intents do matter between a couple. They do! That in my opinion is why couples need to talk with each other, ask questions instead of only thinking and monologuing about themselves, and listen, not just oh yeah, and jump to conclusions instead of listening and believing what's said to the point of remembering it. If both sides, not just one, dont tell the truth of their thoughts, and if both sides dont really focus on, listen, believe the answer to the question they just asked....then there no really good avenue for reliably learning the attitudes and motives of the other partner. Without any good idea, meaning it really fits the other person, it's not something that i built up in my head, according to my own design, out of fragments convenient to my in my head design of that person's motives. Without a good Idea of my partner's attitudes and motives, solid because HE truthfully told me his intentions...I'm doomed to solitary in a relationship. I might as well live "parallel lives", something that a woman with ADhd elsewhere on the net said she and her husband were doing, and that she preferred. Ok so learning and believing the other is the communicator of his motive, and that motives matter, yes so important)
This is a wonder point, and I agree totally where communication is possible...I also know some of us have learned we must just be quiet and watch the actions of our spouses lived out each day, as they put legs on their intentions, to see what is truly important to them...
It doesn't surprise me that a women with adhd said she prefers to live parallel lives with her husband, that is what my wife does. That is her living reality...If I ask her about her Independant attitudes she would only get quiet...If I pressed it, fight or flight....This is reality, so why go to a place that just destories peace?
When a Man or Women lives in a mind that refuses or is incapable to make their commitment to their spouse and children their top priority they do not want to communicate that to you in an honest and calm way...So those of us have tried these conversations with our spouses eventually learn to just accept the facts that their intentions really don't matter....It's like the co-worker who blows you away with their bragging about their money and big spending...But, when no one's looking they hit you up for $10 until payday....
I love what you say here, attitude and motives what is going on inside a person its so important....But, if every thing they share doesn't match up to their daily actions...Well...No matter how much we care are want to believe in them.....Are we going to go with their words or their living of life?
In my experiences if a man or women becomes offended, dodges or refuses to take part in a calm conversation concerning accountablity and what it means to be responsible as a Husband or Wife...It's best to not go there, the results seem to never be a good thing....Those of us who can't or refuse to adapt to mental illness will lead very discontented lives...I don't want that for myself...
C
Good morning, C
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Good morning, C
I so agree with you. I had a spiritual director once who remarked, beliefs are not what you say they are, beliefs are what you actually do, meaning I think that beliefs exist not only in attitudes and intentions, but all the way exist, in th mind and heart and in real life outside of th mind
I agree, the rubber hits the road, the buck stops here, people are walking the walk, most of the time in a relation, in actions, not in words about actions. Good communication is so valuable. but taking action or not is communication, too Lol, and action or non action comes after what one says to her self or her partner that she believes. Proof is in the pudding... Yet there's a perennial danger of having one's own theory of someone else's intention behind actions...my partner and I both have messed up, guessing about intention behind action
I also agree with you and others here about spending most time on one's own efforts to grow and act according to one's own standards
Wishing you well. Its a heartbreaker to want to share, but the other one doesnt