My partner and I have been together for 4 years. We recently bought a house together. He told me when we met that he was depressed...but I've seen him joyous so many times! And I knew he was a slob and a procrastinator-- I thought typically male. He was the first non-outgoing type I'd ever been with; he was quiet and shy and did sometimes disagree with a topic (which meant that was it, no conversation or give and take, no stimulating intellectual jousts). I found the latter odd along with a couple of other things: he asked me not to make him dinner or give him presents because those things "hurt" him and he "didn't deserve" them. He refused to celebrate holidays (important to me because I didn't get to as a kid) especially Valentine's Day. One year he did it: he ordered dinner and wrote me a song---and then at the end of the night asked if he'd ever have to do that again (ruining the couple of hours of joy he'd just given me). He seemed to lack an ability to empathize--sometimes was incredibly sympathetic, but sometimes he seemed to be incapable of it (eg: broke my ankle playing roller derby, he was one of the refs, came over not to check on me or take me to the hospital but to tell me to move over because I was too close to the track). But then he was sweet and nice and smart and wonderful too, and I weighed these things and decided I could live with 'quirky' for this man I loved. I should tell you he did tell me he had severe adhd as a child, but I didn't know what that meant or that it still affected him. Then we moved, our dogs (basically our kids) got old and sick and the shit hit the fan. I discovered that this brilliant computer programmer literally could not help get the house, move into it, or help with the household in any way. He had no idea how to take out the trash, and would get mad If I tried to show him. He would say he was going to take a dog to the doctor and simply forget, no matter how many signs, texts, notes, calendars I tried. I had to hire and supervise every contractor, and then he would come over and tell me I picked the wrong tile. I thought I had gotten into bed with this smart, capable but quirky nerd but he was actually lacking all common sense. He never asks about me, and if I talk it is "unnecessary venting" that he is willing to put up with if he must.if I do say something (eg: "man, it's hot today") no matter what I've said I've actually said a passive agressive thing about him (I actually meant "it's so hot why did you wait till this point to work on the garden"). I am incredibly straight forward and emotional--if I'm mad about something he will know immediately--so this word twisting is so absurd. But it hurts me to think of all the assumptions he could make, he assumes th worst of me every time. I wonder if he thought these things the whole time we've been together but only now is sharing them. He's agreed to take meds "on weekends" and to try to find a coach--our attempts at couples therapy didn't work because each therapist was trying to understand our issues as normal husband wife issues and we didn't fix the box they kept putting us in. He does not believe he is twisting my words though and no matter what insists that I spend all day attacking him. I love him and really am willing to work if it is salvageable, but I worry: will I always feel like his mother? Will he never be able to help around the house? Will he always project his feelings of self loathing onto me? Will we always have to do only hobbies he enjoys? Will we never be able to have deep intellectual conversations? Will he always be this selfish? There have been days sprinkled here and there where he basically treated me like a princess--it's almost like there are 2 different people in there. I guess what I want to know is, if we work on this as hard as we can, what might change and what never will? I need to make a decision here and I just want to have all the cold hard thruths laid out for me. This is one of the most important decisions that I've ever made and I just want some idea of what I'm getting into and I feel totally adrift at sea with no moorings in sight.
Feeling disrespected
Submitted by Juliess on 07/17/2016.
Hi..
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi,
Welcome to world of non-ADHD Spouse (but, everyone is different). Is there any anger? Read Melissa Orlov's blogs on here, just type her name in the "search box". She has some straight forward advice, directly from her personal perspective on having a successful ADHD marriage, and what its like when you are going through the educational field of a changing and very different spouse who has ADHD.
The answer is yes to all your questions
Submitted by adhd32 on
Hubby has undiagnosed ADD. Grown son has it too and was recently diagnosed as an adult. I can only tell you from my experience that things get worse as the stresses of life compound. You own a home. How many projects have been started and are half-finished because he lost interest? Do you have to poke and prod him to finish things, while he resents it, and you just end up feeling like a witch? You will always feel like the mother since you have to plan meals and buy the food, plan vacations, plan projects and all the things where forethought is needed. If you are planning to have a family anticipate meltdowns because the attention is shifted away from him to your baby. I basically raised the kids myself because his input was minimal and his presence at school/church/sports events kept us on eggshells with his comments and irritated body language. He became passive/aggressive and not reliable or agreed to responsibilities with a chip on his shoulder and then not do them claiming he "forgot". I have spent most of my adult life doing things he enjoys because his complaining and "venting" when he isn't doing something familiar is maddening. Dinner conversations are monologs of his day where everyone else is incompetent and he is always the hero of his stories. He never asks anyone else present about their day and frankly, I don't think it matters to him about anyone else's day. He whips out his phone, regardless of where he is, when the conversation is "boring" to play games oblivious to how rude he is being. We don't have deep conversations (even though he has a high IQ) because he doesn't really care about what you have to say as his opinion is the "correct one". He is a nightmare to travel with unless it is to go somewhere he wants to go. I began traveling with my daughter a few years ago and cannot believe how little angst there is without him. He has always been a good provider but honestly it isn't enough. I never felt like I had a man standing beside me; a partner. Instead, I feel like he is perpetually 14 years old and everything is about him. Therapy doesn't/hasn't worked because he is "fine" and has no reason to change, he is "his own man". I cannot say what you should do. However, unless you develop outside interests and friendships with other adults you will be lonely for adult relationships. I am envious of friends who have a group of couple-friends who travel and do things together. He has managed to insult at least one person from every couple we have ever become friendly with. I hope this helps, I wish someone told me but this all happened before ADD wasn't even a diagnosis. The person with ADD just takes without appreciating anything you do as though it is his right and you always end up giving and giving hoping they will change. I don't think they CAN change and you have to decide if your life is enough.
ADHD32
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi,
Its time to step up. You dont want to lose your marriage, its a covenant. Its time to educate yourself on ADHD. Running will not help. You, I and others are the non-ADHD spouses who learn to educate themselves by first; learning to be aware and stop all your emotions and reactions that are a catalyst to creating more and more arguments and greater distance. Second, educate yourself about ADHD, here, Dr Blakely on Youtube. This is a mental disorder, it is listed in the DSM IV & V Handbook for psychologists. Right next to other disorders, Bi-polar, anxiety disorder etc. It is the Pink Elephant in the room that no one understands and will talk about unless its other non ADHD'rs. Its going to be a very long and frustrating road, your life will change but, you will understand a disorder. You will learn to deal with it and live with it, or run !! And that never helped anyone. Our spouses are locked in their mind, at times, they can be human like anyone else. You and I can have cancer,or some other disorder, and others will have to deal with that. If we did, how would we feel?
Not helpful
Submitted by adhd32 on
Please reread the original post and my response. Your comments are not helpful. Most of us are tired of being mother, father, housekeeper, handyman, chauffeur, cook and planner. Personally I am tired of making allowances and excuses while H makes no effort and just sits back and complains. After 37years of marriage I am not going anywhere and I seriously doubt a 60 year old man is going to change. I think the original poster was looking for realistic information on what her future could be like.
Agree adhd32
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Yes. What you said is real. We dont need any more condemnation from anyone when most of us have gone sometimes beyond the end of our endurance to live with and learn and deal with a spouse who chooses to stay in denial and wont learn anything about their own condition to help themselves let alone their spouses. Many of us are just plain worn out. And this comparison I keep reading about where "if I had cancer I wouldnt want my spouse turning their back on me."........guilt trip.
Cancer is NOT a mental illness. And there have been spouses who have turned their backs on spouses who get sick. Anyway. Dealing with a mental illness is a whole different ball game. You are dealing with someone whose brain isnt functioning in its best capacity, and often its severe. The affected part of the brain is what we are dealing with, and sometimes its impossible. Its okay to walk away sometimes if you KNOW your own health and mental wellbeing is suffering beyond your capacity,
Agree
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I don't like those comparisons either. If my husband lost a leg I wouldn't turn my back on him but he might be able to understand that he is not going to be running marathons. ADHD husbands don't even understand their limitations so it is very hard to deal with. I can see how limited he is, but he cannot. A more apt comparison is how does ADHD relate to alcoholism, narcissism or drug addiction or serial cheating? In those cases, is the advice always to suck it up and "work harder on your marriage"? At some point, don't we all just want a real husband who may be able to take care of us or at least a real husband who is capable of being a real partner? It does affect my health and well being. I've moved from significant situational depression based on things he's done/not done that caused harm to the family. Now I'm in a permanent anxious state. I have physical manifestations from the stress. I can't trust him to do things, remember things, make good decisions, make decisions with my needs in mind.... take care of finances.... So, please don't tell me it's not okay to walk away. Even with therapy, the improvement is practically imperceptible. A good friend of mine labeled the marriage toxic, same as if I was married to a person with a substance abuse problem.
Last night, I talked to my husband about travel plans. My daughter is completing an internship just outside of NYC. She has her vehicle. She will be leaving from NY to travel back to Italy to finish her degree. We need to go retrieve the vehicle and see her off. This involves a one way car rental, hotel plans and logistics (where should we get the hotel, where should she meet us? She's a terrible driver, should we even send her to pick us up at JFK? Will the hotel have free parking? How would we get into the city?). I asked my husband what kind of plan he recommended and sat back and watched his face. It was scary and pitiful. He was not able to take those circumstances and formulate any kind of a plan. I cannot delegate a single thing to this man. He's done the same job for 20+ years so he's okay there, but he can't add anything to our lives otherwise and at 47, he will never progress further career-wise. In fact, he has not progressed in the last ten years. And don't even get me started on having no help with the kids academic work, medical and dental needs, college selections, financial plans for college or ANYTHING like that. He didn't even comprehend that he should check with his insurance company for benefit information, copays or preauths related to his short-lived attempt at therapy. He can, however, manage to hide a healthy five figure debt for several years. He cannot say what it was for or provide any documentation/statements.
So, the question ends up being this: Can I make a life with this person knowing he will never be a real partner and he will never be able to take care of me? Is that satisfactory or not?
Take Responsibility For Yourself and Your Choices
Submitted by kellyj on
Vabeachgal,
You asked: " Can I make a life with this person knowing he will never be a real partner and he will never be able to take care of me? Is that satisfactory or not?"
In life....you get what you pay for. If your shopping for a partner who will take care of you...then you are shopping for something else than a partner. A partner is someone who shares things equally and walks side by side with you. If you wanted someone to cater to you and take care of you....you were shopping for the wrong thing and don't need a partner then. If you had an image of what you dreamed of all your life as many women do starting from and early age....and you were dreaming of a "Prince Charming"....riding up on a white horse to take all your troubles away and take care of you and your needs all your life... you were trying to fit another human being into a fantasy or dream that is not real. If what you imagined didn't happen....then your choices you made were on faulty ground to begin with. Even if this is what you had growing up as the example....times change. If you didn't change to fit the times and the changes happening all around you then you haven't changed going all the way back to the beginning when you made those choices.
I think I can identify everything that has ever happened in my life that I did not like or want...to my choices and why I made them. If this conversation wasn't discussed openly with you husband in what the two of you wanted ahead of time.....then 1/2 that responsibility rests squarely on yourself.
I think most people spend more time shopping for features in a new car.....than they do when it comes to marriage and choosing a partner, If you assumed and it would....and then it didn't....who's to blame for that?
As you stated it...."this person" instead of your husband. We don't use names here for a reason and that's because of anonymity and the internet. If you were shopping for the wrong thing and forgot to ask or read the label and just picked "this person" assuming he would fill that slot you created for him...then that responsibility still remains in your decision and choices in the first place. Did you have this kind of conversation with your H ahead of time before you got married to him...or did you assume he would be that and fit into an "idea" or "image" of what you dreamed it would be? Dreams aren't real......people are however.
You said.. "At some point, don't we all just want a real husband who may be able to take care of us or at least a real husband who is capable of being a real partner?"
If I were having that conversation with you ahead of time....first off...I would be offended by this statement. Along with many of the things you've said her that are just not true. You are looking at things anecdotally from just your experience and extending them outwardly to everyone else. This displays a worrisome tendency I see in making other things an extension of yourself, what you want, and seeing things only in terms of "you" in speaking in these terms. I also see a fair amount of labeling in your description and making blanket statements as if they are automatically true for everyone? This appears very self serving to me along with that same expectation from your husband and then him failing to do so which is why you appear unhappy? If you wanted someone only to cator to you and your needs and someone to take care of you....did you say so up front and agree on this ahead of time?
I don't want my partner to take care of me, cator to me and provide me with what I want. I want a partner who shares equally....walking hand in hand....sharing everything and pulling their own weight and having my back when I need it in a give and take exchange. 50/50....right down the middle in everything. Give to get...and pull your own weight. If a hole needs to be dug outside in the ground...it takes no special talent at using a shovel. Women can work and get dirty...just like a man. 50/50.....no gender biases and no gender excuses. Hand in hand....sharing the load for everything equally and no expectations of entitlement what so ever. No one serves and no one takes....it's always negotiated and never assumed. In everything. Joint cooperation and interdependence is what I want in a partner. What my parents had and what my grandparents had is in the past. The past is gone and my parents aren't me. I change, adapt and fit myself to the times and my situation. I don't make the mistake (as I see it) in trying to fit the times or people to me.
As I see it....there is no "I" in the word Team. A team player doesn't complain when they sit on the bench or have to sacrifices themselves at times for the team. A team player is looking to assist as often as they are looking to score for themselves and get that kind of recognition, credit and validation. A team player has my back....as often as I have theirs and doesn't complain if you need to step up to the plate when it's your turn at bat and doesn't keep track of the inequities as they come. A team player doesn't judge others performance and only encourages those with lessor skills to become better for the team. When a team mate fails and makes an error....a team player says.."shake it off....you'll do better next time" with a slap on the back and a pat on the butt. In fact...a team player will do more for the team to get the win for the entire team and doesn't complain about the job he's been given and does it without question.
Take Michael Jorden for example. He has ADHD (I know you said you don't like comparisons but they are necessary to see the differences or differentiate anything ). Michael Jorden is currently the leader in total statistics in all of NBA basketball and a shining example of a team player.
Here's just a few facts of evidence....
40+ point games with Bulls:
Michael Jordan165
Everyone else51
50+ point games with Bulls:
Michael Jordan30
Everyone else3*
From March 25 to April 14, 1989 (11 games):
Michael Jordan averaged 33.6 PointsPG, 10.8 ReboundsPG, 11.4 AssistsPG, had triple-double( points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocked shots—in a single game) in 10 of 11 games (and had a career-high 17 assists in the game before that 11-game stretch - March 24th)
When Jordan scored a career-high 3,041 points in 1986-87, he made only 12 3-pointers. He later made a career-high 111 3-pointers in both 1995-96 and 1996-97.
During the six Bulls championship seasons, Jordan missed a total of six games: Two in 1991-92 and four in 1992-93. He played in 82 games in each of the last three championship seasons.
On Feb 26, 1987, Jordan (58 points) outscored the Nets' entire starting five (54 points)
On Jan 21, 1997, Jordan scored 51 of the Bulls' 88 points (58.0% of his team's points)
Michael Jordan is one of only three players in NBA history with five or more MVP awards. He and Bill Russell have won the award five times, while Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has won it six times.
Michael Jordan won NBA Defensive Player of the Year award in 1987-88. He is only player to win the award while averaging over 30 PPG (35.0 PPG)
Michael Jordan passed Bob Love's franchise record of 12,623 points in a Bulls uniform on January 26, 1990. At age 26 years, 343 days.
Michael Jordan reached 10,000 points for his NBA career on January 25, 1989. At age 25 years, 343 days.
Jordan's 37.1 PointsPG in 1986-87 was highest in a season in NBA
The stats don't lie. Michael Jorden did more than just put points on the scoreboard. He rebounded more, he assisted more, he defended more, blocked more shots more, and stole the ball more on average than anyone else during his time with the Chicago Bulls and they won 6 straight consecutive championships.
This is what I'm talking about. This is who I want as a partner as I see a partner who I want to be on my team with me. But everyone is not like me. This is the attitude I have when I'm in the game and I play to win just like Michael Jordan did. My goal for myself is to take this kind of attitude into my marriage and this is the one I have everyday. A marriage is a team of two....I apply the same thing with to my wife and I have an expectation that she does her part to do the best she can as well I do. I don't expect her to perform at the same level I do, have the same stats as I do, or even be able to do everything I do....but I expect her to be in the game and try as hard as she can and do her best. That's the only expectation I have of her and I don;t judge her based on what I can do.
How do you think that would have played out for Michael Jordan if he had the same...."one foot out the door" attitude you have? Do you think he would have put in that kind of effort for his team if he did? And what if he complained that he scored more points, had more assists, blocked more shots, stole more balls, made more free throws and scored all those points that no one else could even come close to compared to him? How do you think his teams mates would feel about him if he did? Do you think they would have won all those championships if he did? Think about?
And it's non-sense to say that men with ADHD won't or can't change at age 60. I'm 59 going on 60...and that hasn't stopped me yet from doing what I want or what I need to do to be a team player.
What stops someone from doing anything is being a victim who's in denial in any way no matter what you reference as the cause. That'll do it and as far as I concerned....that the problem right there.
Along with that....a victim is a person who refuses to take responsibility for themselves...and expects others to do that for them. Taking responsibility for your choices and admitting why you failed is the first step in getting out of denial. Having that conversation up front before you got married...seems to be the biggest failure of all?
J
J, I always love your posts..
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
J, I always love your posts.... And since you want to point out m. Jordan as a success... Let's take a look at hispersonal life to gauge at as well... He might be professionally successful, and soooo many Adhd folks are, but his personal life has a lot of the same indicators we experience here in this forum. Multiple divorces, secret girlfriends being paid off, several children by several women, failed non sports business ventures, failure to deal with responsibilities financially.... Just because his career is ulcerative and high profile doesn't mean he is a successful PERSON.
If my husband who is
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
If my husband who is brilliant, and when he does work is ALWAYS the top performer gave me the same consideration and dedication and attention he gave his job, I would not even know about this forum. He also is charming, can be the best friend in the world to people, but me? Nope. I have been there with love, patience, kindness and support. When my mother died HIS mother had to tell him to give me a hug. I might get a reply 4 out of 10 times I try to speak to him. He doesn't even consider me from all I can see for things that matter to him! because "he doesn't know how".... But if/when it comes to anyone else, they are top of his mind.
I love over him, but my Heath and sanity are both suffering. I have gone through all the steps laid out by Melissa and our therapists. I heave read books, forums, articles, trained myself.. Everything I can find I have done. His response is " I am thinking about things". No action.
Ah Yes....Now We're Getting Somewhere
Submitted by kellyj on
Thanks Stacey for what you said. And I won't argue with you about MJ's personal life. Same as Tiger Woods. Same as a lot of famous sports and celebrity figures who are in the public eye. Not to derail what you said though...I think you hit upon something that is really getting down to the nub here.
ADHD is a re-direction of focus problem...not a inability to focus on something intently and get things done. This is stating what I've learned in the current understanding. Okay.....I'll buy in. I have this problem and it is a problem for my wife and she has indicated this herself. And I....in turn....acknowledge this to her. Acknowledging this is as on going problem unless I make corrections to it. How well I do this however...is not related to my performance or how hard I try. This...as a "problem" for both of us....needs to acknowledged by her as well as myself as our problem together and not just mine. My best....will depend on many things and my best on any given day can only be judged by me. Only I can know what my best is ever....no one can determine my best or judge that I've tried or doing it. The "bad" game to play...is to start judging another persons performance base on the result you want. What you want...is irrelevant to someone best effort. If you don't like the result of what someone else does and the expectation is for "more". What are "you" going to do about it? That's really the question here if I may be so bold? And the answer is not an easy one but you always have a choice?
But also acknowledging that this is something real and not something that can be overlooked going the other way in terms of what I just said. If your in the game (in the relationship)...then your in. If your out....then your out. You don't get to have it both ways? If your in because you have to (religious conviction or otherwise) and you feel you have no choice.....then you are going to become a victim to "it" not the other person. "It" being the promise speaking in those terms. I really do know this one because I was there myself. I sacrificed more than I should have for a "promise" that was not being held up on the other end. This was not my ex-wife's fault. I made that choice and it was the one wrong in retrospect. If I could have know then what I know now....I would have been out of there a long time before that because I believed falsely on my part...that my ex-wife had the same values as I did at the time which she did not. I was lead to believe that she did (by her) in that she did not communicate this with me ahead of time or speak to me plainly about how she felt. She kept it a secret... along with a lot of other secrets that I came to discover only after we were divorced. She kept that secret life you were mentioning with MJ...for the same reason he did. She wanted her cake...and to eat it too and didn't want to let on since I would have left if that was the case. She was not up front and did not let me know how she felt because she was weak and afraid and used me until she found a way to leave when it suited her. In the mean time....she took what she could get and took more than what was fair and left me with her debt and racked things up as fast as she could before she left knowing she was leaving but not telling me ahead of time. I don't care who you are or which side your on here.....this is unacceptable behavior by anyone and is completely lacking in character. This in not something that I can take responsibility for. Sitting on the fence for years and using someone due to fear and a lack of character is no excuse for the law as they say. Knowing better and knowing this is wrong...and doing it anyway due to your own lacking in this area is reprehensible in my opinion and I would never do that to another human being. The golden rule still applies no matter which way you look at it?
I cannot fault someone for not wanting to be with me due my challenges including ADHD. I can fault someone for sitting on the fence and not being in the game. You don't get it both ways....either your all the way in....or all the way out.....there is no in-between and no playing both sides of the fence. If a choice has to be made...then the one of "character" is the one that needs to be considered. Weakness of character...is no excuse and the responsibility there can only lie with yourself in every case with the exception of one.....children.
And I really think Stacey...if children is the case and this is legitimate....then that should be said so up front and honestly for there sake...not your own. You are not your children speaking in those terms and you can't use those same rules to apply to yourself even though people do all the time. They do it...but it's wrong and shows that lack of responsibility and character when they try.
This is so damaging and hurtful to anyone when someone tries to use this as an excuse to rationalize their own behavior. Whether you are hiding behind your children or living a secret double life....using others as a shield to protect yourself is "chicken shit" and weak and shows a total lack of courage in my humble opinion. Lack of courage is the problem if your "in"....but your actually "out" if that's the case. That would be the equivalent of Michael Jordan getting his salary for the season....and not showing up for the game. That would be stealing if that were the case wouldn't it. And no one is going to argue that stealing is not a sin. If your "in" because of your religious convictions.... or because what you believe so strongly that you have to stay beyond reason or what is good for you.....then you need to pony up and stay and be "all in"...all the way. The is no 1/2 way as far as I can see?
Being on the other side of this....I can't tell you how much this hurts. Being a victim of a victim...hurts no less than going the other way. It makes no difference which side your on? Ask Dede...she can tell you....it's such a betrayal and there's really is no excuse. It's character that is missing...not from having ADHD. Missing character is not an ADHD symptom as far as I can tell...but it's also not unusual either from what I hear? The real question is? Is this because of the sample of ADHD is so small and easy to isolate or identify? Or is it the same in the general population if you were to segment this out base of a number of different other variables and look at those same figures based on those same smaller segments or group classifications. I see no need to do this or go to that effort...but I suspect this character issue....would show up similarly across the board in all group segments or classifications aside from gender or ADHD alone? Just my gut....but I think it would be interesting to know?
His response is " I am thinking about things". No action.
What you said:)
J
I'm not asking for a Prince
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I'm not asking for a Prince Charming or someone to "take care of me" or cater to my needs. In fact, I've spent the last 20 years taking care of everyone else's needs. I am asking for an adult who can manage adult responsibilties. IE, make reasonable decisions that do not result in near catastrophic debt and then choose to hide the information. I'm asking for an adult who doesn't lie and then blame it on ADHD. I'm not asking for anyone to "fix" my life or anything like that. You're reading my comments in a very chauvinistic way like I am disappointed that my husband is not a big ol' provider treating me like a princess and creating my 15 year old fantasy version of adult life.
You have no idea how I grew up or what my expectations were. You don't even know who is the primary breadwinner in the relationship. As far as expectations up front, his functioning has deteriorated over the years. How do "expectations" and "conversations" take that into account? You talk about giving 50/50 but my husband is nowhere near putting 50% into this relationship in any tangible or non tangible way.
I have a serious auto immune disease and when I reference "take care of" I mean I don't know if he could manage the household and bill paying and the intricacies of medical coverage should I ever require the assistance. I don't know if he could even remember a doctors' appointment.
I don't want my partner to take care of me, cator to me and provide me with what I want. I want a partner who shares equally....walking hand in hand....sharing everything and pulling their own weight and having my back when I need it in a give and take exchange. 50/50....right down the middle in everything. Give to get...and pull your own weight. If a hole needs to be dug outside in the ground...it takes no special talent at using a shovel. Women can work and get dirty...just like a man. 50/50.
My husband does not provide 50%, and yes, I get my hands dirty. I've personally renovated every house we have ever purchased. I change the brakes on our cars, not my husband. Why are you assuming that I am not giving at least 50% to this relationship??? That has NOT been the case over the years.
You also don't know what sacrifices I have already made for the "team" in terms of picking up slack to accommodate my husband's work schedules, single handedly managing the house and kids while working full time and attending grad school.... while no household help is provided.... because he decides he'll "help if he can" or help "if he has time." Or the time he decided to go back to work the day we took my father off life support because his ADHD brain told him that would be best and there was no need to be a team member that day? You are correct, we do struggle with the team concept because he doesn't perceive me as needing any support. He just doesn't see it.
Yes, one foot out the door because I am legitimately fearful for my future with my husband. I don't expect him to "take care of me" but I do expect him not to harm me emotionally or financially. His decision making capabilities are very bad and I am fearful that at some point, he will create a situation that I can't get us out of. Yes, J, a REAL PARTNER who causes no harm. Not some pie in the sky mythical Marlboro man.
Yes, we discussed what we wanted ahead of time, but in true ADHD fashion, it didn't quite "click". Of course I thought we were on the same page because he talked, listened, agreed and said he held the same values and goals and looked forward to creating the life we discussed. He had well meaning intentions regarding what we would do and accomplish and the kind of life we wanted together. We discussed it and were in agreement. ADHD intervened. The intentions were there, the ability to plan and move toward goals was not. I am a team player but I do require the rest of the team. My son is an All American college athlete. In one sense, he could "carry" the team, (and he has carried many of his high school teams), but he relies on the rest of the team to be there for him and would be understandably upset if the rest of the team was not putting in a full effort just as he would be upset if he did not think he was putting in a full effort to support his team. He is not a selfish player and probably values an assist more than a goal just like his Mother. He doesn't keep track of everyone's individual efforts or mistakes, he congratulates all players on their efforts, recognizes effort and individual success. If the team loses, he focuses on everyone's efforts. I instilled those values in him. But if you have a player on the team who can be consistently counted on to turn over the ball or pull a foul or refuse to be a team player.... what do you do? The rest of the team compensates or that player is marginalized and no one trusts him.
You cannot possibly blame all women who have difficulty in marriage with ADHD spouses for not having "conversations" up front. That's ridiculous and over-generalizing. You''re stating that the difficulty is that women/couples aren't setting ground rules and plans up front while at the same time, one of the participants is notably deficient at focusing on conversation or plans? Especially since many of those conversations occur during the "hyperfocus" time where everything is smoke and mirrors anyway. Shoot, my husband forgets most of our conversations and can't remember a plan from day to day. I did make a mistake, a failure if you will. I assumed my husband was actually paying attention and internalizing our discussions. My husband is not Michael Jordan. He has not chosen to address/overcome ADHD. You are also assuming that my husband is "in there" doing his best every day and trying to overcome. What is my answer supposed to be if that is not the case? I'm a team of one? I've been in the game, giving it my all for so many years that I am just tired and there is no reciprocity.
YES!
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Vabeachgal - YES! Thank you for putting so ellequently into words what is in my head so very often.
Its really frustrating when the Active ADHD folks here assume that our (nons) spouses are even putting in remotely the same effort they are, and shift the blame to us. Exactly what our spouses tend to do, even when its just them blaming "control" on us. Sheeshe!
Respectfully.....Consider Something Vabeachgal.
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm not assuming if I don't know? And I don't know those details but I can see now why you said this? I responded only to what I saw and the words you used and took them for face value. That's all I could see but those words said to me exactly what they said as I read them. That's all I knew...but now I know?
Do you know what the definition of chauvinism is?
feeling or displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism. displaying excessive or prejudiced support for one's own cause, group, or sex.
While I actually support and agree with what non-ADHD said here except for one things she said "Welcome to world of non-ADHD Spouse"..and for the very reason she said it....I say this to you. Did your forget to read the label before you made the decision to say what you just said?
I feel I did....both in this thread and the "Welcome" mat on the door which reads "
Welcome to "ADHD and Marriage" Helping adults thrive in relationships impacted by ADHD."
As well as what Julius said " I need to make a decision here and I just want to have all the cold hard truths laid out for me. This is one of the most important decisions that I've ever made and I just want some idea of what I'm getting into and I feel totally adrift at sea with no moorings in sight."
As it appears....chauvinism works both ways and there is a bias that comes though in how you say things that is clearly one sided. In fact...there is an overall bais that is telling Julius not work of her relationship, that it will never change and ADHD are a lost cause with no hope. All I'm saying...is this is not true and giving Julius (as best I can) an un-bias appraisal for her to compare and contrast too. I have to say also...that not liking comparisons is really a sign of bais right there. It you are only in support of how you feel and feel others should feel like you do....you are supporting your own notion of the way things should be and that in itself is a problem if your husband is having to deal with this himself.
What I do know and why I said what I said....is from experience and not some unfounded beleif. I would rather it not be this way myself....but growing up with two older sisters and a mother...being married before and having many different girlfriends and now my wife....if you don't think I can't see this and see this as a problem. I do. it's why I said it and it has nothing to do with me liking it or even agreeing with this notion that I wished did not exist in the first place. This thinking...and the beliefs behind it that you quickly accused me of and basically put words into my mouth that I didn't say....came from you....I didn't say them?
But now that you did....I really can agree with you on most of what you said and don't feel the same as the chauvinists on the other side who are male which I'm not. Just so you know.
All anyone has to go off of are the words you use. I can't (or didn't) know anything other than what you just told me...and certainly don't believe the things you accused me of? I didn't read into your words....I only responded to what I read and saw and used your words to respond to. That's all I did just so you know?
This is a real problem I have with my wife too. She get upset first....and then say what's on her mind before she knows what I'm actually thinking. I get accused of kinds of thinking and have words put into my mouth...and then after the fact....once she's told me what she was upset about....then it's all Okay.
Except the parts where I'm accused of things that didn't happen...and my feelings are hurt because of it? She doesn't mind that part herself and only gets upset if I point that out to her?
J
Puppies!!!!
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I didn’t post yesterday because I was playing with my puppy. Someone did not demonstrate good impulse control and was unable to drive past the free puppy sign. Based on appearance and breed popularity in this area, the little guy is an adorable beagle/hound/Labrador mix. However, Someone Else had to go get puppy stuff because Someone only brought home the puppy, nothing else. Someone Else will take the little guy for his puppy shots, etc. And yes, I understand that I have a choice not to keep the puppy.
I read a few posts that celebrate the joys of adhd – the fun and joy and spontaneity – thinking outside the box, the energy. I wonder how many non adhd spouses actually experience that or if it’s like the puppy thing. Thanks for an adorable puppy. I already have a 2 cats, a Labrador and half a darn lacrosse team. In actuality, the puppy was a gift for our son – who is leaving for college in 3 weeks. SMH. Fun and joy has not been my experience. It’s more like here is the car I spontaneously bought. (The payment is WHAT????)
I am not a victim. I have choices and I am aware that I have choices. I don’t need to be told to take responsibility for my actions. Up until this point, I have chosen to work through problems with my ADHD husband. When I read through the posts, I am struck by how much effort the non adhd spouses put into the relationships. I am exhausted and I am also very aware that I don’t have it as bad as many. I am also not a woman with princess expectations.
Yes, I displayed a lot of anger. I am angry. I am at my wits end. We both have a bias. Almost everyone one this forum has a bias. You are working through the issues and I commend you for that. However, most adhd spouses do not, so it is as important for you not to extrapolate your bias onto other circumstances as it is important for me to do the same. I do believe that living with an adhd spouse who is not attempting to improve is soul-sucking, as the other poster suggested. I agree that many of us were hoodwinked. Take a marriage, add in some work stress, children and general expectations to make it through the day and deal with all the little things and you end up seeing the complications of adhd that may not have been evident with a simpler lifestyle.
I am going to use a word that may make you angry. You bashed me for not being a team member when, in fact, I am the Lone Ranger in the marriage, without the side kick and sometimes without the damn horse. You also kind of bashed me for leaving my husband to deal with all of this on his own. That’s your bias because you are working through your issues. Turn that statement the other way and please consider what responsibility the adhd spouse has for helping the non adhd spouse. It seems to me that your statement may or may not imply that the non adhd spouse has to come through with MORE patience, kindness and strength when we’ve already been there and done that. I don’t want to assume anything. That’s the way I read it. We’re often very depleted. One of the things that is debilitating for a non adhd spouse is the lack of support. I have exactly one live person I talk to about this. I am embarrassed to talk to anyone about the financial issues my husband has caused because it’s so so so so stupid as in a rational person would not do these things. You may not realize it, but non adhd people judge the non adhd spouses as stupid for tolerating dumb ass behavior. We get a lot of “why do you tolerate that? I would NEVER” or “Why don’t you just….”, and suggest some tactic that would work in a non adhd marriage.
Here’s an example from my life. Read it and ask yourself to consider the balance between me supporting my husband through ADHD and his responsibility for supporting me.
My husband decided that his job was too stressful and was the root of all evil. He would be just fine without this stressful job. He did not actively seek a new job in or outside of the area. He took a job a competitor offered. To his credit, he knew the company and the owners and it was a good fit for his personality. They love him and think he is wonderful. I am happy that he has that validation. However, he did not bother to tell me that the job was at $12,000 a year less before I agreed that he should take the job. He thought he would make it up somehow. No plan, just somehow. So he told me the salary was the same. At that time, he was overspending by about $600-700 a month (but he didn’t know it because he never looks at a bank statement) and took a job at a lower salary. Nice. He was carrying health care for the family at his former employer. He did not consider that. Did not cross his radar. He did not ask for specifics except to know that HIS plan would only cost $9 per paycheck. It was a sweet deal – for him. It is a super duper top of the line Cadillac plan. I was self- employed. It took 3 months of badgering before he checked on continuing health care for the family. Well, the company not only did not subsidize family members, there was a surcharge applied. Cost for the rest of us? $1400 a month. Do the math, already in arrears, lower salary = health care plan not affordable. I got a supplemental plan for my daughter at college and went on the marketplace and bought coverage for my son. I went without for 11 months until I was able to sell my business and get a corporate job with benefits. I don’t like it. I am currently taking 17 credit hours in 12 weeks to get additional certifications that will provide an additional $8,000 in salary…. To make up for some of the difference…. I’ve lined up some additional work to cover the rest. I’m into week 9. Household help? Yes, for the first 3 weeks only. Sustained effort is not an adhd thing. And yes, I did get very sick during my time without health care and no, my husband did not feel any particular shame that I was without medical care or had to make some hard choices regarding services. It’s taken me a year and a half to get his half of the budget balanced and it involved giving up a nice car and driving the best car I could find for $3,000 cash. He still spends $400-500 a month on beer and fast food. LOL. The other day I mentioned that I might treat myself to something when classes are over – maybe $50. He said that would be a great idea. In my head, I was thinking, really? You should do something for me.
I truly understand what you are saying about the adhd spouse not being alone, isolated and condescended to. But, please tell me again how my husband should feel working through his adhd issues without my “active” support. As a reminder, my husband dropped therapy and was a now show at the psychiatrist’s office. Many non adhd spouses are actively working to keep the wheels on the bus and don’t have an unlimited reserve of strength and resilience. My question for you is this: at what point do intentions no longer matter? My husband is a nice man. He does love me. He does not intend to cause me any harm. In fact, when he lies his rationale is that if his actions were not intended to cause me harm what is the harm in me not knowing? That’s the best way he could put it to me. But if, regardless of the intent, the result is hurt and pain, when does the intent no longer matter, only the result? I think a lot of the posters are at this point. I don’t think my situation is unusual or isolated. I think many non adhd spouses no longer have the ability to provide active support for a resistant spouse and also wonder where their help is.
I appreciate your posts. Oftentimes, the adhd spouse just cannot articulate what’s going on. It’s not a disorder of self awareness. Our marriage would really benefit if he could get the thoughts in his head out in the open.
Absolutely vabeachgal....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
You said it well ...for both sides....
Your line" many non add spouses no longer have the ability to provide active support for a RESISTANT spouse and also wonder where their help is". This says it all for me.
I have done the best I can....I gave 4 more years(after diagnosis). I consumed EVERYTHING I could find to learn what I needed to do. What I didn't wrap my brain around(until recently) was my H was really....not doing pretty much ANYTHING himself, about it. Not his fault that I didn't see it. For me...there is NO marriage where one is in it 100% and the other....is not. What they say and what they do.....speaks volumes. Now that I see that success is not even really on his horizon.....I am left with little choice(truthfully I want to say...no choice)....I am moving on without him. I do not need to be the "reason" he changes. He needs to want it for himself and he, at present, doesn't.
Puppies.....We Share This In Common
Submitted by kellyj on
I love dogs (have 2)....and of course puppies at least for a little while.(now what I mean? lol) Before I say anything to respond to you....I will share what we have in common first and then go from there. Dogs is one of them as I said. I have learned more about people from watching m 2 dogs interact along with one completely disgruntled cat.....I can't believe how similar things are when watching how these 3 get along with each other. And the one thing they all want (all at the same time) is me... and the affection I give them.lol Really....if you really pay attention to their behavior....it's not that unlike what I see happening with my wife and I sometimes. The only difference is....they are completely unashamed and without reservation with what they want and they are completely uninhibited in asking for it!! lol My 2 male dogs who are the same breed (Papillons) and are only a year apart in age...are so completely different in their methods and when push comes to shove (literally...they sound like two chipmunks going at it with each other and things go flying, dogs go sprawling and there is no way to stop them once they get started. All over what they want which is my affection. Since I only have two hands and there are three of them competing....the cat gets so bent out of shape that he won't come around if the dogs are there. He sits and moans from other parts of the house and wants you to do something about it? Once he's been isolated for too long...he just gets fed up and comes around anyway and digs in and faces the two dogs to a show down. The crazy part of this is that he weighs 16 lbs, has claws and is more than twice the size of his (rather not have to have) roommates and is totally afraid of them.
On the other hand....the two Paps respectively weigh 5 and 6 pounds respectively. There entire heads are no bigger than a tennis ball which I affectionately call them....1/2 tennis ball heads when they act out or get into trouble. lol
And the worst offender of all....is the smartest one who is also the smaller and first one in the bunch. Papillons are known for their intelligence ( #8 of all dog breeds) and I can tell you....he knows what he doing. They're not that smart in comparison to fooling me if that's what he thinks. And actually...he doesn't think....it is all impulse and instinct and nothing else when those drives get kicked in the chipmunks go at each other in a frenzy....which is why it's so interesting to watch since I recognize all these things in myself and other people at times. Without thinking....it's easy to see. lol (so much fun and entertainment and so easy to please).
But when I finally figured out what this was all about....I realized that Picasso (poo for short meaning shit because of his behavior)...is because he has to compete (where he didn't have to before which really bends him out of shape anyway....since he's so small and he basically afraid that he won't get his needs met unless he becomes the squeaky wheel in a highly aggressive way. He goes right after the cat first until he gets him cornered....the the cat lashes out and catches him with his claws which hurts since he yelps when that happens. Do you think he runs away with his tail between his legs? What do you think? lol No. He's not that smart!! lol What he does is go into a fury and goes right at the cat even more (picturing 5 lbs diminutive) ball of fighting fury which just finally overwhelmes the cat and the cat runs away! lol
And then in turn...he goes after his older brother next. He bad vibes his bigger younger brother to the point that he gets so fed up....he goes after him since (poo) is relentless and won't give up no matter what. When the chipmunks rage (never actually hurting each other or drawing blood)..it always ends up the same way. Po (Master Po....yes I know..poo and po...but they know the difference! lol )..always ends up pinning his older brother to the ground on top of him and has him in a total submission hold. Do you think Poo steps down? What do you think? LOL He'll sit there in a submission hold on his back and growls with this "wild eye" look on him. Po knows if he doesn't keep him there long enough...he'll just come back on him and start all over again. lol. This caused so much disruption and fighting that it was only escalating and getting worse not better and they would erupt out of know where (as it seemed until I figured out exactly what was going on) and this then ensited my wife to react and get involved. (oy vey!!! I'm not Jewish but this summed up my feelings about this at the time! lol )
So now....m wife is yelling and chasing after them squirting them with a squirt bottle (they hate this but it works really well ) and all hell is breaking loose. She's not really an animal lover and these two dogs bring her to the edge sometimes. So her idea of fix it....it to yell and squirt and punishment as a way to put an end to it. Do you think this stopped them? What do you think? LOL
Now....the dogs are chasing the cat with the cat hissing and snarling...the chipmunks are then going at it with each other.. my wife is yelling at everyone, squirting water everywhere and getting me wet in the process since the dogs are now retreating to me in fear of my wife and her squirt bottle!! lol And yelling at me to do something as well.!!!! lol It was insane!! LOL
To get to the end here....I realized what the problem was and more punishment (as my wife was thinking was the answer and getting upset with me for not being more force full and stern ) was not the answer. I realized that what everyone wanted was more affection from me specifically and I wasn't giving them what they needed. Everyone was afraid and everyone was angry....that was the bottom line.
So....I started systematically on a nightly basis....giving everyone what they wanted from me including my wife dispute what she was recommending which was obviously not doing it for anyone. Poo I found..once I lavishing his neediness with praise and attention....could see underneath it all...that what he wanted most was just to be near me and get my attention. The softer I spoke...and the more gently I caressed him...the more he melted and out came this really fragile and vulnerable little creature who you could not ignore. What I know do with both dogs is wisper in their ears sweet nothings and call them all kind of affectionate nick names like: Malamute for Po since he gets so excited sometimes he talks in Malamute language instead of barking. He rolls over like a "love slut" (another one my nick names) and exposes himself and just melts in my arms when I do that. And Poo becomes so sweet and adorable when he puts his guard down that you cannot do anything but just Love him to death. You can just see it in his eyes and he becomes completely docile and pliable. lol
And on top of it....my wife started becoming more affection it too...and low and behold...they go to her and want the same from her. They engage her now and want to play and want all that affection from her too where before....they both stayed as far away from her but now....there are two more sets of hands to go around including the cat who is still the dumbest one of all since running away only insites the dogs more to chase after him. If he'd just realize how much bigger and stronger he is compared to Poo's aggressive will....he's realize that running away is the last thing he should do. If he'd just stand still and not doing anything instead of being a "Fraidy Cat"...he would get some too but he still sits and moans instead of coming in to be with everyone else as often as he should. He is so desperate for attention but so afraid of the dogs (you'd really have to see how un-intimidating these dogs really are ) that he sits in agony sometimes and going without.....only because he's so afraid. He could eat these two for lunch and still not be full!! lol Claws and all!! lol
The corollaries you can draw from this are staggering. But before I say anything else....I was the one responsible here. While my wifes idea of how to deal with this coming from one way of thinking wasn't wrong...the problem with her way of dealing with this meant staying constantly vigilant and staying on this group like a hawk and then reprimanding them on cue exactly when you need to. While that is not wrong and probably the best or most agreed upon approach....it was not approaching this problem in a way that I could do it effectively. She was convinced that punishment is the best approach as she believed it....but what she was doing is also called "aversion training" in order to avoid punishment. It is (or was in the past) the accepted approach for dogs but with one huge limitation and down side. it's not considering what the dog or cat wants and dismisses this entirely and go straight to what she wants which for them all to shut up and quit bugging me. In the moment....it worked quit well which is why she was insisting that I do it to for her sake as she saw it since this was more entertaining to me at times and less entertaining for her. All she cared about...was this to stop....right now!!! She wasn't considering that I could keep up with this tactic since it required constant focused attention to do this effectively.... and that I really didn't agree with the methodology in the first place since it requires fear in order for it to be effective and went against my entire reason for not doing that in the first place.
On a fundamental level....using fear and "aversion training" goes right to the core of the same abuse I experienced when I was growing up in such a similar way. Trying to have this conversation with her at the time...was never going to go anywhere and only cause us to fight. I could not get her to understand why I felt so strongly against what she was doing on top of....seeing her do it with me in the same way whether she realized this or not. Basically...I was telling her the same thing with me...but applying to the dogs which in her mind....this would never stop....it would always be this way...and someone needed to step in and get the job done...right now. No if...ands or butts.
And this goes right back to me now. What to do? I felt the same as the animals felt (all wet and stressed out! lol )....and we were all were trying to get as far away from this as we could since no one was getting what they wanted....except for my wife in the moment. That's as far as the eye could see as far as she could see?
And in the moment...it worked. But it nothing to prevent if from happening again since love and affection what all anyone wanted including me. In this case....my wife got what she wanted for now.....but was actually doing everything in her power to keep this going with no end in sight.
This is absolutely true in everything I said just as it happened and I only brought this up to you since you mentioned the puppies and what I learned from this experience. It was a real life experience I had and with it....I learned something extremely valuable from it.
And with one bit of advise that my therapist gave me a while ago and that I just followed without questioning him so I don;t mind passing this along since I now see the results myself. Actually two things he said and nothing else....
"Don't make anything you do...contingent on anything anyone else does"
and
"Give her what she wants"
That's it. He didn't say how to apply it or how not to apply it. He just said...it's up to you to figure that part out on your own. And that's exactly what I did and this is how it ended up.
Dogs and cats are so easy to figure out. They don't think in terms of holding grudges, having their feelings hurt,or rationalizing their behavior on a cognitive level. Dogs can't lie...and only tell the truth and are always consistent and never changing in what they want. But they do have emotions and they feel them just like we do. They feel shame, anger, joy and fear and they only want to please themselves first in all things all of the time and they make it known to you by their actions without words. It so easy to see what they want at all times...that's it's also easy to give it to them without any hesitation or doubt in your mind.
Also taking responsibility for another trait I have that really is a common thread in having ADHD and that really is agreed upon as a common qualities aside from the ones you were speculating? This is where knowing the right thing or being wrong can make all the difference in the world.
I could tell you straight up...all the ways you are wrong and I wouldn't be wrong in those things when trying to apply what I read and seeing where you were making a mistake in your thinking about this and you probably wouldn't believe me for all good reasons why you would have no reason to. I've spent a life time of doing this...and all it does is make things worse and so I know better than to do that. What I need or have needed more than anything...is to make people believe that what I'm was saying was right...but had no way to explain it to them since I just didn't know how?
What I know now from a lifetime of experience with all those failures behind me....is that you are not "wrong" in what you want, what you think and what you feel. It's because we are all taught "what" to think...instead of "how" to think...in terms of reward and punishment and doing the right thing from a very early age. We learn this in Church...we learned this at school...and we learned this at home in our families and everyone learns this as the way to go about everything and for the most part...it works. Unless you can't do the thing like everyone else and you are told you are bad for being this way. Right and wrong....good or bad....is determined by the results and we are tested on this in the same way to meet that standard of approval. The measure of success...is the results you get from it. It's the same aversion training they do with dogs and it works to ge the desired results. I learned it and I'll bet so did you?
But as I witnessed this and experienced this once again.....I could see exactly why I couldn't do what my wife wanted from me at the time and part of it had to do with how negatively affected I am with this kind of approach. I will never measure up to everyone else using this means to gage anything I do. If Love equates to not being messy, never forgetting things or having trouble re-directing my focus....then the best Love I can give will be measured by something I can't do the same. If this is the means of currency being used as the exchange for Love.....I will never appear like I Love my wife and she will always feel unloved and dismissed. And everytime my wife applies her version of aversion training on me...it only makes me (and the animals) not like her very much and want to get away from her. No matter how much I Love my wife...and no matter how hard I try to prove that to her....she will never feel Love from me using this means to measure it by. I can only give it in that regard...in the way she wants it from me and she is looking for it in all the wrong places as the song goes.
What I can give to her easily...as it was with the animals...is to give them exactly what they wanted and how they wanted it. The hardest thing you can possibly do..,.is Love someone who is angry and dissmisve when you reach out in the only way you can to show your Love...and be shot down every time since this is not being received. The courage you need to do this...requires you to let go of all that fear of rejection knowing full well you are going to be rejected...and do it anyway and just keep doing....despite yourself and what the other person is doing which they usually end up being throwing it back in your face and told you need to do it this way instead (for them)...since that means Love to me and nothing else. Prove it to me...by your actions and here;s the ones you need to do to prove that to me. (which are the very ones that have to do with your disabilities having ADHD)
How arrived at the answer is exactly what I told you. My wife had it in her mind...that Love means all things to her.... but in reality as I saw in the dogs and cat....that really affection and giving attention is really all they needed. And whether my wife knows this or not (assuming no because she has never acknowledged this to me) that giving her what I can which is exactly what I said....seemed to do the trick more than the way she was telling me. This was not hard for me to figure out since I want the same thing too.
I hope you can already see what my intentions were in saying what I said to you. I wasn't bashing you as much as I was bashing the way we all learn to do this which in my humble opinion is wrong. You are not wrong but I think what we all learned growing up is.
You said this.."Our marriage would really benefit if he could get the thoughts in his head out in the open." I can't tell you how right you are in saying this and we share this in common. My wife has issues that fly under her radar that she is not understanding or seeing in her self and I'm not assuming at all that this is your problem. What you said...shows this to me already and I don't need to question you. I know this is true and I Know you see this the same way I do.
But I was not always like this and I was more like your husband for sure from the sound of it. But if I had to get up on the roof tops and scream this at the top of my lungs.....I would scream "denial"...not ADHD. Denial can be applied to anyone for any reason and it's getting past denial first...before anything else can happen. It's two stage process and the first one is getting out of denial before the second stage is when you get what you want. There are no two ways around this and that means....putting the faith and effort in first...before you will ever get what you want. And even then...there are no guarantees.
And many...if not most who make it here are dealing with someone who is for what ever reason....not willing to do the work and not leaving that state of denial. What I can say with some certainty however....there are not many choices in how to do this and none of them are easy. The effect on those of us who grew up undiagnosed and had been rejected and scorned for something that you don't have the faintest reason why at the time....become oppositional due to the treatment that you don't understand and can only fight back as the only way to survive. So if fighting back becomes your only means to get anything you want....then someone coming at you in anger and trying to apply aversion training is only going to make you dig in worse. It may seem counter intuitive and going against what you might think....but in this...doing the opposite of what you might think is exactly what you should do.
And in terms of my wife as I have come to recognize in myself....she is oppositional and defiant herself which now adds one more variable to this situation we have. In order for me to now get past her denial of this....I have to move to the middle....and now move all the way to her side in order to do this. This is what my therapist was pointing to when he said to "give her what she wants."
I cannot tell you how difficult this is for me to do. The amount of stamina, courage and fighting against everything inside me that is screaming at me to go the other direction is exhausting and it takes its toll on me in countless ways. If I was coming from the middle alreay....it would still be hard to do. Coming from one extreme at one end....and moving all the way to the other extreme on the other end...requires something that I needed to find a good reason to go that extra mile without getting anything in return.
What I found however....was the one thing I can do easily and that's simply to give attention and affection and not want anything in return for it. The act of doing it....gives me something that I can feel good about and that's the only thing I've found that works or does any good at all. If I have to become something I hate in order to do this...I will only end up hating myself and I will never be able to continue doing it.
My little dog Poo...is really the one who taught me this. He is so small and diminutive and insecure about his status...that he is completely oppositional and puts out that he';s the big dog on campus and no one better mess with the Poo. He is completely strong willed and relentless and he will never back down from a fight ever and will go head on against a cat that is over twice is size in order to protect what he sees as the most valuable thing that he needs which is Love and affection from me specifically. He wants this more...than he cares about getting hurt and will try and defend and guard against any threat no matter how big or small.
As I see him...and see these qualities in him....some may say he is a bad dog and needs more discipline. What I see is the "Heart of the Malamute" and that's my favorite nickname for him:)
J
Dogs
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi vabeachgal....
Submitted by c ur self on
(The intentions were there, the ability to plan and move toward goals was not.)
I feel much of what is going on with you and many of us really isn't directly caused by a fast mind..ADHD...In my view it's much more related to character...I know many people who have adhd, who are very aware, and very responsible, regardless of their challenges..And, any one who has adhd who isn't in denial will tell you the way their mind works does present specific challenges...
But, what is going on in your marriage and my own is just a refusal to be responsible as an adult....It's denial in it's purest form. When this is the reality of our spouses, then we will most always be left to suffer the repercussions, (thoughtless outburst, extra work, emotional abandonment, among other things) or hopefully be wise enough to recognize it, see it coming and work around the fallout.....
The comment you made above (that I high lighted) is a perfect example of irresponsibility and the refusal to be self-aware....Once I married my wife; most every thing we planned, or agreed on, just stopped....I became in bondage to her inability to move forward to follow through...So in seeing that and fighting against it for 5 miserable years, with nothing to show for it, but the heart scares....I've started making my own goals, and working toward those...Acceptance of Reality!
C
ADHD v. Character
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Yes, I struggle with trying to discern how much is ADHD versus a character flaw or basic immaturity. The lack of taking care of things responsibly for so, so long... I don't know... seems like ... I don't even know how to put it in words. Not caring at all?
Beyond little impulsive lies I don't see any basis for saying ADHD causes lying, for example.
I am also not convinced that ADHD on its own causes a lack of empathy.
Yep, that's why I was so angry with J. It's not that I didn't set reasonable expectations, it's just that everything STOPPED.
Everything STOPPED
Submitted by kellyj on
V...let me interpret. Stopped or arrested development. Remaining "stuck" in time and remaining the same as you said immaturity and showing a lack of responsibility? Those would point to character development remaining the same (consistent and never changing) would be more of a character flaw. Along with no empathy or lack of. Think an adult...with the empathy of a child?
ADHD....being slower of delayed (being behind ) or even a little less than you would expect in comparison for the age. Inconsistent...now you see it....now you don't. But it still evolves but still remains behind until your older.
I was always pretty responsible even as a kid. Lack of empathy was more just being behind but still getting there later.
When you said the word STOPPED...and not caring at all? mmmm? makes me wonder? This doesn't fit to what I know of myself??
Giving up however....could easily look like not caring when in fact....caring so much and getting so frustrated that you just stop trying.
I think the only way to know for sure...if you try something different yourself and see what happens? I'm really familiar with the alternative and really know the difference here myself.
ADHD is consistently inconsistent...and for me when I was younger....delayed or behind but still evolving. It did catch up after a certain age however but the oppositional parts I've needed to work on beyond that point which is more nurture than nature.
Character or lack of...is pretty consistently consistent and never changing but these things can all mimic one another and the latter is not so much ADHD just so you know. It that helps.
By the way....I knew why you were angry. It wasn't my intention....but I took the chance anyway. I am so use to this....you will never know how much I know. It really doesn't make me angry anymore...as much as sad that it is so hard to relate to what I have seen most of my life in confronting the same issues in trying to communicate what it's not....when people can only see what they think it is and I know it's not anyones fault...but still having someone look at you the same. You know what people are thinking.... because you've heard it 1000 times already. It only takes a couple words or more...or said in specific way...to already know the rest of it...before you even hear it. That's my problem in doing the same thing when I do that since it only compliments what is wrong...vs...what is right instead.
But from what you said...and mentioning the things you did (before and now)....it's one thing for these things to be a symptoms especially in times of stress and then go away and is not the norm all the time. It's another thing when it's a chronic condition...and never changing? If that helps you decide what to do....and narrow this down a little for you?
The problem that I've face myself with this issue? I care a lot to the point that it can make me give up trying as it did in the past. Not caring at all from my own experience with this....doesn't seem to get in the way of the other alternative and never really slows that person down.at all from doing what they want ever. Depression is another one I did not see at all in a person who completely lacks empathy. What reason would they have to be depressed if they didn't care?
As it appeared to me from my own experience with this. Sadness and depression seem not to exist along with empathy. And mostly all you see is anger outwardly in any real high intensity emotion. Joy and exuberance and taking things extremely seriously ( not having a very good sense of humor about being offended or someone disrespecting them.will usually get a pretty predictable response which is ang Never really getting excited in a positive way: overjoyed and happy and over exuberant...also appeared missing in my personal experience with someone who fits this profile.
I can't speak for the inattentive type ADHD since I was definitely on the hyper side of this growing up...But those things I just described as missing...are all qualities I do have... or have displayed most of my life just so you know?
The biggest issue I've had as the remnants of being raised by a person who lack empathy is...you start behaving like them and don't even know it after too long even if this is not your issue. That right there...can show whether you know it or not?
I can't say what's toxic for you or anyone else is....but if I was describing the difference....exasperating for ADHD? Yes. Toxic....sounds like something other than ADHD based solely on myself as I have come to know what Toxic is and why? I have had first hand experience with this and there is a difference as far as I am concerned?
And just so you know....from what I've recently learned...the ODD childhood component does go away when you get older. The tendency however is still in there somewhere but it is not ODD later on? This I did just learn is considered a common almost predictable pattern to go along with ADHD.
The character thing however...is something that as I understand it...can be there with others things....but not a given for all those who have it but some for sure. My feeling is...most who come here...might be coming here less for ADHD and more for the latter. It's very hard and actually impossible to know or make that determination by hearing only peoples perceptions and nothing else? That's really all we're getting here as it's all in the eyes of the beholder?
The one thing I said about denial however...it can look and feel this way too with many of the same features and feel to it and it not being any diagnosable disorder either. Anxiety disorders can also mimic the same group of behaviors as well. OCD etc...
It's too hard to know and dangerous to guess....the only way to find out is to go to therapy but being therapy resistant and leaving early is a red flag but you probably already now that? Denial and character disorders are both tough nuts to crack and I really don't know how well they are related? Causality....or ...comorbidty? There's really no way to tell unless you have a professional give you that kind of diagnosis.
J
Diagnosis Required
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Yes, without a real diagnosis.... he was diagnosed or misdiagnosed with an LD as a child. I didn't know that until recently...his sister shared..... she also shared that he has had a problem with lying his whole life...the psychologist suggested ADHD. He only went because I threatened divorce. He bailed on the psychiatrist appointment. Won't go back for more sessions. His primary care physician did not agree with the ADHD diagnosis and diagnosed depression. He lost his father to cancer at 10 and his mother to cancer at 18. We all have our issues but he is a real smorgasbord. There is no telling what is really going on. He doesn't want to know. He's taking Wellbutrin. I found an empty pill bottle this morning - can't even keep up with the prescription.
Same Thing Here V
Submitted by kellyj on
My wife was definitely abused growing up. Her mother was also diagnosed Bi-Polar and not thinking too far here....it could be that...or it could be the effect of growing up with Alcoholism in here immediate family? (ACOA)
All of these things are possibly and they all have similar symptoms that over lapp one another? Who knows really? That's all I'm saying? The one thing I do know that I believe in with my wife however....she wants to be in a relationship badly....maybe too much in that respect since I feel she looking for something in a relationship...that I can't provide for her. She keep saying things like.."I don't think we were meant to be together?"...at times....but really as I hear her saying this...she will also say.."I don't think I can be with anyone and should live alone."
What I know for myself....is I've said those same things too in my thoughts which comes from being ambivalent in your thinking process. She'll say things like this out loud as if she has come to some conclusion? In reality....what I see...is her still wanting that relationship but not knowing how to get it?
I think the most important aspect of this that might get overlooked (both positive or negative) is some ones desire and willingness to change. If he's been pathological about lying in the past as you said....resistant to therapy and unwilling to change at all in the time you've known him? mmmm?
Or...you could be the impetus for this in doing something different yourself. (within the relationship?) That would require you to change first in order for this to happen and then see where it goes?
J
Beachgal....Time attention and Care....
Submitted by c ur self on
Without Time, Attention and Care...You have no marriage, just and existence of Dysfunction....
J makes some great points about nurture and he is a great example of awareness when it comes to overcoming and not blaming. He has really helped me many times to see a larger picture than the pain of my day to day existence was allowing my mind to grasp....
But, I just wanted to tell you; from someone who walks in your shoes, I understand, and I know how hard it is to grasp an optimistic outlook when our spouse refuses to take responsibility in the demands of life....
Hugs and Prays to you!
C
Lack of empathy...
Submitted by c ur self on
There seems to be many reason's why a person might demonstrate a Lack of Empathy....http://www.innovateus.net/innopedia/what-does-lack-empathy-mean
Sometimes in our day to day bewilderment caused by the actions or lack of actions coming from our mates...We get overwhelmed with the Question "Why"...So we pile on ADD/ADHD....So many times there is so much more going on....I think empathy for some minds must be learned in the growing process....I think immaturity and the fear of what is real can create it....I think it did in my own life, when I was a younger man....
(below is an usurp for the article)
(A psychopath is called so as he suffers from lack of empathy. He cannot and does not empathize with people around him. He is spurred to action only by his self-interest and in a sense is socially dysfunctional. Similarly a narcissist suffers from lack of empathy when he focuses on his own pleasure and goes to any extent of manipulation even with family and friends just to gratify his needs.)
My wife is medicated, clinical level adhd and the following is her life exactly!!!.....Attacking self interest w/ vigor; hyper focusing on the things that creates pleasure for her...And the desire to control or manipulate (use for self interest, not as an intent to do harm, but seems completely blind to it..) family and friends into being part of the activities which are paramount in her life....This type thinking consumes her, and it's most always things around Entertainment/ Fun!....Most all demands to be responsible is drudgery for her.....Thus the messy hoarding and failure to step up to day to day responsibilities....
I accept this, and mange my life to deal with it....(I understand, we want be as close as we should, and when I refuse her manipulation attempts she will frown of me:)) It's not easy...LOL...But, I'm not going to be a victim because my wife is one?? I"m going to accept reality, move on and be happy, and thankful for all my blessings...
As a matter of fact I'm fixing to wake up (over night quests) two of my precious grand babies 8 and 4...And fix them pancakes and scrambled eggs, and chicken sausage...We're going to have a fun day....But, I want hyper focus on just the fun...I will wash the dishes, and put the kitchen back in order...And I will see to all of their needs and the other responsibilities this day demands....
Abundant Life is only found in one place!
C
C...More Lack of Empathy Possiblilites?
Submitted by kellyj on
Thinking in terms of my wife...but a distinct possibility?
Bi-Polar
ACOA adult children of alcoholism
OCD
Dissociative Disorder
Dependent Personality Disorder
Aspberger/Autism
child abuse
Those all have lack of..or difficulty with empathy included in the symptoms.
And before I forget? Co-dependence and insecure attachment (Attachment Disorder in the extreme) Include those to this list if you really want to get down to it?
The thing about ASPD (sociopath, psychopaths,)...and malignant severe Narcissism NPD...as I understand it. They cannot...not "will not" if that makes sense. Inability vs irreparable prognosis?
Borderlines and Histrionics( drama queens ) however...have varying degrees or abilities to change and change is possible but with a great deal of work and effort and special treatment by a trained phychologist.
Lack of empathy...is just a symptom. The cause can be many things including depression. That can do it too?
J
C and V.......Coming Back Here
Submitted by kellyj on
(this post was edited out)
Thanks Vabeachgal, J not so much
Submitted by adhd32 on
Vabeachgal-My life too except for the part about the brakes in the car :) The cars are one of his hyper focus items.
To J- There are plenty of successful (monetarily and/or famous) ADD athletes, performers, etc. Don't assume that just because they succeed in one FOCUSED area of their lives that they are successful at life. Many successful ADD types do not enjoy as much success in their personal lives. They bail when the focus changes and they are expected to contribute to relationships, etc and they have to deal with the day to day boring business of life. They are successful at their game/performance because they were always able to focus on it, and became good at it, and it has given them enough pleasure into adulthood to keep pursuing it.
It is unfair to call any dissatisfied person here a victim and blame THEM because "they refuse to take responsibility for themselves" (your words). Some of us were hoodwinked into believing what we were promised long ago, before life's stresses revealed the ADD and the true person we married. We thought we were getting a teammate with whom we could share the load, as you suggest a teammate does. Instead, we ended up with someone who always expects us to make allowances for them yet makes none for us. On a team everyone is striving for the same goal but this is not true of a marriage to an ADD partner, unless they are willing to be open minded and put some effort into the partnership instead of blaming everyone else. I am not sure many want to change and I don't see how that makes the NON ADD spouse a victim. Are they a victim because they don't or can't leave the one sided relationship? I think the majority of us have tried to accept our spouses but having a dead-wood teammate who is not, or is unwilling, to be a stand-up partner is soul crushing in so many ways. If you really read the responses, most have tried accepting the "quirks" and many keep going to therapy. In the end, when unpleasant things like chores just need to be done, the ADD person has proven time and again to be unhelpful or unreliable.
Let's not forget...
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
How many posts I have seen where the non ADHD spouse ACTUALLY HAD CANCER .... And the ADHD/add spouse bailed, didn't support, felt things like video games were more important', could not be bothered to take on chores or responsibilities....
no no I would not leave my spouse if they had cancer, but I cannot stay with a man who has no interest In Staying with me..... And I will not trust my future or fate to a man who at every turn of my needs is no where to be found, like every time someone dear to me has died, it became about him needing to leave because he couldn't handle life. To hell with that.
Youre not a quitter
Submitted by NonADHD on
Spacey,
Your'e not a quitter, you need to start figuring out how you need to change in order to deal with this and ne happy. Firdst, stop being needy and relying on hour husband to make you feel a certain way. Nxt, read Melissa Orlov's blogs, she wrote something that made me look at myself differently. You need to start to focus on you, begin to live you life, start thinking that ok, maybe this is over, but its over when its over. Start to look at you !!! Change your mind, act as if. Anger, bitterness, complaining etc. will not get you anywhere. It's a waste of time. He will notice the new you !!! Get back to basics, who you were in the beginning .. Good luck
D,
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
D,
Perhaps you should look up my previous posts to see "who I am" before making assumptions about what I do, and how I conduct myself, and to clue into the road i have already traveled with my ADHD husband.
You make judgements on me that are baseless, and clearly feeding off your own experiences with others.
SS
Sorry
Submitted by NonADHD on
Sorry for the advice, just trying to help....I'll refrain. Good luck !!
I always appreciate advice,
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
I always appreciate advice, but in your reply you made assumptions that you should not have. Perhaps changing the tone of how you post (I know its the internet and can be miscontrued etc) and leave out the assumptions and your advice might be better recieved? I try to make a point of reading what someone has posted previously before I post anything regarding what they have done and who they are. Its helpful and can open better dialog. Just some thoughts that might make your experience here better.
No problem..
Submitted by NonADHD on
You seem bitter and battle weary.....Like many on here. I don't write long winded, pompous babble threads...just what I feel.
Dont reply..I pray for you !!
Yes - I will reply. Yes, I
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Yes - I will reply. Yes, I am bitter and battle weary, I am just now trying to recover from 7 years of emotional turmoil created by relationship with someone who has not pulled their share of the work involved in a happy life and who frankly isnt even sure they WANT to. But I am expected to maintain, keep the happy face, bear the burden and not complain.
Yes, I am bitter, just like so many people on this "ANGER AND FRUSTRATION FORUM" are. Thats the point of this forum to vent and get it out with the support of folks who have either been there or ARE there currently.
And as of now, I am rebuilding my life, and not going to worry about his anymore. His life is what he makes of it. I hope he makes it a life to love. Mine sure as hell will be.
Yep
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Yep, when my father died it became all about my husband not being able to handle it. He didn't even help clean the house for the guests who would be arriving or take the kids to buy clothes. They were teenagers. They didn't own black clothing; they were not Goth. He did, however, find a way to consistently work 12 hour days for the next ten days. The folks at his company were wondering how he could "handle it." OMG. I can't remember why he couldn't handle it. I think it was because a friend of his had a bad car wreck (said friend was drunk driving) and he visited him in the hospital so he couldn't deal with being in the hospital with me while my father was dying of cancer.
Juliess
Submitted by kellyj on
Since this discussion has been centered on ADHD since that's where we are in this forum. When I read this through...I spotted some non-ADHD symptoms here that you might look up for yourself. Since I recognize some of these things as not ADHD caused....I thought it might be useful to you?
Splitting- "Will he always project his feelings of self loathing onto me? ...... There have been days sprinkled here and there where he basically treated me like a princess--it's almost like there are 2 different people in there."
Dismissive or disorganized insecure attachment ( attachment theory ) " One year he did it: he ordered dinner and wrote me a song---and then at the end of the night asked if he'd ever have to do that again (ruining the couple of hours of joy he'd just given me)."
Inability to differentiate feelings and confusing or mixing up up Love with Sympathy:He seemed to lack an ability to empathize--sometimes was incredibly sympathetic, but sometimes he seemed to be incapable of it (eg: broke my ankle playing roller derby, he was one of the refs, came over not to
check on me or take me to the hospital but to tell me to move over because I was too close to the track). ( dismissive....insecure attachment)
Projection/denial (symptom of gas lighting): "He does not believe he is twisting my words though and no matter what insists that I spend all day attacking him."
I'll give you an example of me having ADHD going back to a child and what I remembered. I was raised by a father who was NPD too so I had/have some learned behaviors but here's the difference.
My parents would call me to come do something and I would be right in the middle of something else and say "I'm coming". A few minutes later...there I was still doing my thing ( completely absorbed in it )...and my parents would come and find me and be angry with me. I didn't realize I did that due to my ADHD. I was lost in hyper focus and kept on going. But here's the deal....I knew it once they were already angry since I remembered once they snapped me out of it....that I had said I would come and didn't. No two ways around that one? oops. "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry." My favorite two words. The reply..."don't be sorry....don't do it again."(if only it were that easy? lol ) No one knew.
Second example. I would be thinking about something I wanted and completely neglected to think about how this would effect someone else in a selfish kind of self serving way. But this was par for the course around my house...every man woman and child for themselves. All for one...and one for themselves. If it's good for me...then it must be good. This was learned Narcissistic behavior by example.
When confronted with this from someone who wasn't in my family or friends ..."Hey...that was a "dick" move buddy." And thinking to myself..."mmmm...that was a "dick" move on my part?? (after the fact again) And either I'd try and explain it away ( rationalize)...or I'd say "I'm sorry" again. Take your pick. Usually both.
Rationalizing is basically making excuses and not taking responsibility. And the "I'm sorry" was just to try and make it go away not a real apology. I was responsible in my decision making to do things or not...(mostly lol ).For example....the thing I was so self absorbed into was not the problem. And I rarely got in trouble for my decisions in that respect....since the consciences were so severe and I was very aware of right and wrong as far as that goes. Same goes with manners, politeness and courtesy. I knew those by heart and then some. Again...from the strict back ground I grew up in. I even knew what the little fork was for on the outside of the place setting. lol
But this kind of responsibility....I was completely lacking in. Making excuses for my ADHD symptoms was all I could do?
This was my standard MO. If you notice in both cases....I was aware that I did it...but just after it was too late?
Delay in processing and impulsive behavior without thinking first. (ADHD)
And the learned Narc behavior is just copying catting what I saw (and was aware of myself) and not from a defect in character from another cause?
That might give you an idea of what is ADHD...and possibly what is not?
I can't answer the other questions you have about this...but maybe you can research some yourself before you find a therapist who is actually versed in this stuff. He does have ADHD behavior in there too...but there's something else going on as well just from the things you said?
And as far as lying goes. I lied quite a bit about a lot of things...but...I knew I was lying. Lying for no reason or just to lie.....was less a problem unless I was speaking without knowing something as If I knew...or due to denial which you aren't aware of as lying. If I was making things up for what ever reason....I knew that too for the most part. That was more about insecurity...and parroting things I heard I had no idea what I was talking about? Mostly, that was all about insecurity and denial which related back to attachment theory again.
J
When the "non" spouse gets old, sick or disabled
Submitted by dedelight4 on
From my own experience, and from reading others with similar impending situations, a big problem arises when the non spouse gets old, sick, disabled, or all the above. When we have been the foremost caretaker and organizer in the family life who for decades keeps the daily family life running smoother in a life of looming chaos.
As long as we can "keep up" and keep going things can continue, even if there are problems along the way. But, a serious problem occurs when the non spouse can no longer physically keep up due to age and/or a breakdown in health. I'm not talking about J here, because he works so hard to help better his marriage with his wife. I am talking about the spouses who stay in denial about their adhd, and put the blame on the non spouses for all their problems. And yes I know both people are at fault, but I'm focusing on a certain issue here. (when the nons get sick).
It would be wonderful to believe that the ADHD spouse could step up and be in a caretaking role, for even a short time, which is just part of what happens in marriages when folks get older. (one ends up taking care of the other). In my MIL's case, she grew old, couldnt take care of a house any longer, and developed Alzhiemers, which then she came to live with us. THAT was very hard, and my husband would tell people that HE was taking care of his mother, when that wasnt the truth. I WAS TAKING CARE of her, cooking, cleaning, making her bed, laundry, doctor visits, talking to her during the day, calming her down when she would feeak out, etc., etc., etc.
Having his mother, a bipolar/Alzhiemer's person living with us, along with having an untreated ADHD person was SO difficult on me. I took care of them while also working and doing the entire household things, shopping, cooking, laundry, holidays, taking care of a big yard, and washing the cars. And living in pain at the same time
This was difficult, and there was no way I could get my husband to see that I needed help. He refused to let me hire someone to come in and clean or help with the yard. He ran all the finances, and we declare bankruptcy once, and have lived meagerly most of the time. He would spend on himself and his "business ventures" which have never panned out, and we are at retirement age with zero money. And still he refuses to look at anything he might be doing that is keeping us in perilous situations daily. And THAT, is why it is so scary to be OLDER and less physically able to help keep things going.
I know he would not be able to actually take care of me should I become bed ridden. (GOD forbid). But this is a REAL reality we all have to FACE, because we are ALL getting older. Some of us ARE going to be too old or too sick to be any help to the adhd spouse. Will they be there for us, ever? That is part of marriage, people dont want to THINK about. Ive has to face this sooner than later, and its ver, very hurtful and difficult. I never thought Id be 60 years old, starting over again, with almost nothing, and no money, in chronic pain, but here I am. I have to do this, and I will, but its much, much, much harder now, and thats not having a "defeatest"attirude. That is what is my REALITY.
Dede, Yes, concerns about aging are real
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Beginning with the OP's post
"I guess what I want to know is, if we work on this as hard as we can, what might change and what never will? I need to make a decision here and I just want to have all the cold hard thruths laid out for me. This is one of the most important decisions that I've ever made and I just want some idea of what I'm getting into and I feel totally adrift at sea with no moorings in sight."
....the million dollar question.
To me, Dede, you've named again a core part, maybe the core part of its answer. If one in the couple is, or both in it are insisting on denial regarding what CAN and CANT change regarding ADHD or ADD (plus any other mental or emotional clinical-level impediments in the couple), it's going to be harder and harder, as aging progresses.
From dealing with the aged, I believe because I have witnessed, what Richard Carleson wrote, "You become what you practice most"
People begin the arc into aging at different chronological ages, but short of dying in an accident, we're all going to go through it. People with ADHD, like nons, are going to lose mental acuity, short term memory, the ability to drive, the ability to walk without losing balance. We all are going to live with the emotional challenges of aging.
Here's the cold bath of reality about this, to me. If my partner with ADHD practices not actively caring for me now, according to Carlson, he will become what he practices most. Etc. If I practice anger at him as a denial and projection of what I should care for in myself, when I arrive in serious aging infirmity, I will BE what I have practiced most.
I know you know these things. I'm not at all wanting to suggest that I'm giving you tips or judging you. What I'm wanting is to say, in strong terms, very strong ones, that what you've brought up about aging and denial patterns plus declining to take active responsibility is avery serious issue to me. Very. If both in a couple dont practice self care and care of each other, there's trouble later.
What I've seen in real time in the lives of people advancing into aging is that they DO become what they've practiced most, because age takes away the ability to do anything else.
Thank you for picking up this part of the OP's post.
Now
Now,
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Now, Thankyou for bringing up something that is rarely mentioned, what happens when we become elderly (and for ADHD people, usually alot earlier than that). When my H and I were in counseling, the therapist dropped those cold hard facts right on top of our heads. H already displayed some of the effects of constant disconnection, the memory lapses and zoning out were serious problems and to *my* eyes, he is already experiencing some of what I saw happen with my grandmother when she developed Alzhiemers. I know that everyone forgets things on occasion, and that everyone zones out - but doing it chronically can damage brain function as you get older. Its a form of dementia that is associated with trauma sufferers and I *think* could possibly be whats going on with ADHD/ADD folks who have a hard time with memories. (this warrants some research on my part)
I love my husband very much. But am in the process of letting go and living a separate life to his. I wish that it could be different, but I dont think he has the desire to do what it takes to conquer his demons (work on his issues, treat the ADHD/ADD). I have already started in my mind disengaging him from my future. And while the anger and resentment inside of me makes this easy, deep inside I am still very sad and heartbroken. BUT.... I WILL BE OK. Because ultimately, his choices have and will continue to damage me unless by some miracle he steps up and takes responsibility and SHOWS it (words are empty air and mean nothing at this point) for an extended period of time.
When he told me last time he "still wasnt sure" he wanted to be married, after everything we had been through, after all I had done to support him in EVERYTHING he ever tried to do, and after all the talk of "my life is with you, I know it, I know that no matter what I want to be with you - we can work through anything" he still wants to pretend things are OK, do what ever he wants (and God forbid that I do anything but pleasantly smile and go along with it), because - if he gets in a bad mood - that means he wants to leave....well, fine. Leave then. I will be better off on my own, and finding someone who doesnt run from things and who will respect me enough to not lie to me, and who will actually love me and cherish who I am.
So be it. I know what my worth is - and its more than someone "settling for ME" - as I would not "settle" for someone else. I know my strengths and I know that I deserve someone who is willing to put in some effort. No relationship is easy, no relationship is with out struggle... but to me, thats part of the deal. You focus on the commitment, work through the issues and come out stronger on the other side. For him - if its not easy, and immediate - that means it cant be done. Sorry - didnt mean to babble. Maybe I am the one who is starting my journey towards dementia after all these years of insanity! :-)
Stacey.....I Conquer With You, Now, and Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
Stacey......whether you realize it or not....you just supported and agreed with everything I said to Vabeachgal....and having one foot out the door and be 1/2 way in the game. What NowOrNever mentioned about what Richard Carleson wrote, "You become what you practice most" I will have to agree with this too. I have seen this play out as well regardless of the words that come out or a persons mouth. It's almost like believing in your potential and your potential is what becomes true for everything...without backing it up with any proof aside from the one time you did something that well before. I've heard this said going the other way about "falling in Love" with someone potential since you' ve seen them do it once.....but all the other times they fail to even be in the game or fail to do it was well as they did once before? It's not about how well you do something once....it's about doing it repeatedly again and again each time they do it with some consistency. Not perfect...or not always as well each time....but consistently doing it over and over repeatedly....that's the real skill and effort right there.....not "how well" they do it.
Dede's story of her husbands mom with Alzheimer is insane. This was tripping over dollars on the way to make a penny thinking on his part and fundamental flaw in his thinking. As I read this....I got a picture of what was most important to her husband. He was that "Little Engine Who Could"....but never made it to the top of the hill except for maybe a few times just to prove he could in an effort to prove that "see..I can do it". As far as his job and responsibility goes...he was being pretty miopic in his ability to see that as a team member....it's all about the team...not proving how well you do something. And now in hindsight and being sensitive to Dede's here...it appeared he was working more for himself and his future...than he was caring about Dede's or being a team player. It's seems Carlson was right in respect to Dede's husband after all....he became what he did most and repeated this pattern of being only 1/2 way in the game and quickly dismissing the rest of the team and being a team player. He was mostly fixated on what he wanted to do and his job on the team only and didn't much care or realize the effect this had on Dede and their relationship. Clearly....taking care of an Alzeimer patient..is like having an infant again. An infant of around 2 or 3 years old who never grows older and actually goes in reverse. Can you imagine having your child or dependent remaining a toddler for the rest of their lives...and then finally ending up like an infant of less than 1 years old and having to spoon feed them and do everything for them just to stay alive? And to not be able to notice this in terms if the amount of time, work, and effort a person has to put in the be a care giver for such a person who's living in the same house with you? And then taking the credit for it like he was doing anything to contribute? It's that insane an absurd...the lengths that a persons denial will go to protect themselves from seeing how much they fail or how poorly they are at doing something? And completely dismissing the suffering, pain and effort of the other person on the team.
This of course...points right back to denial again. Not ADHD necessarily...but denying your limitations of it and believing in your potential only and not factoring in the rest of the time? And when the relationship fails because of this....you dismiss that too...and then just leave since you can't stand to look at yet...another failier even if it's you who created it? In the case of Dede's husband....this is how interpret his behavior. It's just my opinion...but I had a mom who had Alzeimers which eventually she died from....but it took her over 15 years to finally pass on which was a blessing for her and as well as everyone else involved. She..the person...was gone. She was a walking Zombie on life support (her own in this case) and was just the embodiment (or living body of the person she was)..that remained behind that needed to be cared for. That may sound harsh or like I'm being uncaring (about my own mother)...but that is reality for an Alzeimer patient if you've never had this expereince. Literally...the brain dies first and the body catches up later. The last thing to go is the involentary life support functions and first thing to go is a person memory of anything after a while. The person that you know....exits the building and is not longer there as much as you might look at them and want them to be there and want to beleive in that potential again. Believing only in your's or someone else's potential only...is denial of reality and not wanting to face what we don't want to look at that is really true.
If you beleive the person who's doing this and trying to convince you otherwise and just paying lip service to it only...but what you see is totally different....what are you going to beleive?
Going right back to my ADHD example and pattern as a kid. I was so busy working and focusing on what I was doing....I failed to see that I was not coming when I said "yes....I'm coming"...and kept right on going in an effort to finish what I was doing first. The then my parents being angry with me...for not doing what I said? I may have even been doing what my patents asked me to do....but then they asked me to do something else which was to stop and come to their request which I agreed to ...but didn't do it. Now in my family....that kind of incident...did not go unnoticed. It was brought my attention repeatedly and harshly and there was no way I could ever get away with it. That part...could have been done better...but the reality of that is....I became very aware of my limitations early on and felt extremely insecure because of it. There was just no denying it.
And that same insecurity got carried forward until I found a way to fix it or remedy it successfully and for the most part...I did within reason except for a few exceptions. Mine was clutter and messiness. The rest of the things I managed to find a way to compensate well enough to get on by without too much trouble with. I proved to myself what my own potential was...and didn't need to keep proving it over and over by how well I did something once. "See here....see how well I did this thing this one time?" It is making a point that if you try extremely hard and put all your eggs into one basket at the expense of everything else...that you can prove to yourself and others that you can do something well just once. That's really all you proving if this is what is most important to you? Proving that your not wrong...and that others are..... is more important to your ego...than it is in caring about anything else I think at that point.
And IMHO...."working smarter...not harder"...and conserving your energy...is the way to go in everything. But also applying diminishing returns and ROI into the equation. All or nothing...either do it...or not do it....is not the answer. That looking at things from a black and white perspective. The integrated approach is considering all variables together and doing the math as they say. As my friend the investment banker said to me once..."It's easy....just lay all your cards out on the table in piles in order.....and then pick the piles with the most points in them...and then add them all up until you narrow it down to two piles. The you just pick the pile with the most points in it and there you go. It's simple." Not so simple when your dealing with another human being...but if it were anything else....it really is that easy?
Can you imagine Michael Jordan so focused on making points and breaking every points record in the book...but neglecting to play defense, steal the ball, do rebounds and blocked shots and make assists? Do you think the Chicago Bulls would have won 6 championships if he had tried to win doing it that way in support of his ego and the records he was trying to set or establish?
It's kind of cool that the Pyramids exist and all for posterity sake....but for what? For the Pharaoh to prove to the rest of history...how hard he worked to drag those huge stones half way across the world and stack them into a pile with him in it to prove this? LOL Who are you trying to kid here? We know this wasn't true even if he believed it himself?
J
Now.....You Mentioned Something Here
Submitted by kellyj on
That I'm thinking about in what you said. Stacey mentioned something that struck me funny in that she feels or is speculating...that possibly people with ADHD would reach a point of aging more quickly to a point of diminishing returns...sooner than those who don't have it? And even correlating it to having dementia and reaching that point earlier?
And in what Julies is asking about in the second part of her inquiry in which I addressed working harder or smarter already...but what about what can change and what cannot? Okay....I'll buy in again. You can't change the parts of the brain that affected by ADHD as I understand it? You have ADHD or you don't and with it comes why it exists. That cannot be changed? The why can be debated...but the existence and the symptoms common as a result are pretty recognizable as being pretty common. Without arguing the many variations...this exist.
This is something that hits close to home for me since....I did my best up front to explain this in detail (again as best I could) ahead of time so there would no surprises for my wife. Up front...open and honest to the best of my ability which I went over many things as a warning straight up so there could be no saying that I didn't warn her.
She also came to my home (many times) and even stayed with me before she actually moved in so she saw the condition of everything she was moving into ahead of time. The was no deceit or downplaying this and tap dancing around it on my part. I couldn't have been more open and honest about it other than no knowing everything I know now. Regardless...she had eyes and could see and I pointed this out to her along with admitting my challenges. I may be the only person who's come her exactly with this situation to begin with so I can readily see any arguments that my wife could make to the contrary and said so up front. No sand bagging...no surprises....no withholding or trying to sell her on something that I wanted for myself in a surreptitious way. To the best of my ability.
My personal feelings about this is that she didn't listen. She believed what she wanted to believed...and dismissed the rest as irrelevant at the time. Only to find once she got there....it was not the reality that she wanted it to be after the fact. Changing reality is not possible other than to change the present to influence the future but there is no changing your reality ....this very minute? There is changing your action this very minute...to change your reality in the future however at some point in time? If you didn't realize this was your reality...and then discover later that reality is not what you want it to be....then the question still remains the same question regardless? The past is only relative to now if you want to change it by using it to do something different? If you have no need to change or be different...then the past becomes pretty useless?
As I think about this...if you are unhappy now....it has to be about the past? Now...all you can do...is change in the moment (in the now) for the future when it arrives if you want it to be different at that time. Which means...the results of what you do know...is yet to come and you can't really be unhappy about the future before it arrives...all you can do is worry about the future and that's pretty much it? Being angry about the future before it happens....worrying about the future before it happens and being afraid of the future before it happens... will surely make this more difficult now...if you are trying to change it for a later date? What can be done other than this? What can be changed and what is possible if this is your current situation?
I was thinking about this in terms of my dogs again. I did have Dobermans and loved them (3 total) At the time.... I loved their energy and spunk and the fact that they could go do things I liked to do like camping and hiking and were great companions for me then. But they are big...and LOUD (lol)...and boisterous and high energy dogs and take lot of effort in meeting their needs as well as my own. I got to place where I did want a dog to replace the last Dobie I had who finally passed away...and I realized how much work they were to have so I didn't want another big dog because of this. I'm getting older and I did the math and a dog on average can live 10 to 16 years depending on. Little dogs live longer than big ones so I started looking at little dogs with the idea that are less work...make less mess...eat less...and are very portable. Their not as loud...not as dirty and they mostly like to be with you as companion dogs which is exactly what they are designed to do. Dobermans on the other hand....are "working dogs" and were designed for a different purpose. A working dog is great to go hiking and camping with which was what I was doing back then at the time. Companion dogs would not have been suitable for this purpose and I never considered them for that reason alone. The breed and their function...is how dogs are classified.
So....figured in 16 years...I'd be in my 70's...and could see how Papilons would fit perfectly with my lifestyle at the time when I reached that age and when they would also be at the end of their life. I figured...when they die ( I can't think about that now...aahhhh!!!) the timing would possibly be just right to make another decision to get a dog or not at that time if I choose it but I don't need to worry about that right now. Right now....they all the things I said they are...and their still dogs which is what I Love even if they aren't Dobermans. Really...I never got tired of "Dobermans or dont Love them as a breed. I just don't want the work, the hassle and the extra effort it takes to own one and take care of one since I know myself well enough to know what I'm capable of and predicting that I will have less ability later on to deal with a big dog anymore. The little dogs fit my needs for now and in the future and it was the right choice all things considered?
What I cannot understand or can justify as valid...is my wife's seeming...not understanding what I explained so thoroughly in detail ahead of time so she could make this same kind of informed decision, knowing what my home and my house looked like before hand...and still feels she has a right to complain about what she doesn't like now after the fact? If I had bought a Doberman...and found when I was 72 that a Doberman was a problem....would I be in my right to shoot it in the head because it was a bad dog?
This is the quandary that I'm thinking about and trying to come to terms with something that makes no sense to me?
And as far as my understanding about ADHD....it's not a degenerative disease or condition like Lou Gehrig's Disease, Alzheimer or any other that fit into that category? Why should it then...progress any more from where it started....at the beginning when you are born? I have no information on this what so ever....I'm just posing this as a question? Speaking in relative terms....it "should" (can't know the future?) degenerate at the same rate as everything else in my thinking about this long term? Doesn't that make sense without knowing the answer here exactly? That's assuming...all things stay relatively the same without being able to predict things ahead of time. That's all you can do when speaking about the future. What I mentioned earlier about the difference between "gambling" and "risk taking". If you are uncomfortable about either one...then you should leave now and that way you can be always be sure. Not doing anything....leaving...or doing nothing....is a safe bet if you want things to stay the same. It's the conservative approach is the safest one of all. If you are more comfortable with being conservative....then acceptance of what is with no expectation for anything different within your realtionship is the only choice you have. If you want things to change or be different...then you have to take a certain amount of risk that their might be failure involved on some level or to a certain degree. Risk taking...is not gambling however. Risk taking...is making an informed decision base on available evidence of fact...and making an educated guess base on logic and facts available. Gambling is an emotional decision...to throw caution to the wind and just hope for the best and assuming it will all work out the way you want it. There is not much use for the past with gambling or even being conservative since change is not required at all to use those to make a decision..... neither approach needs much new information (none with gambling) or past results to use as a means to tell you what to do now when it comes to wanting change to occur in the future using those two approaches in my thinking about this? I could be wrong...but I was just working this through in order to see where and what choices are available...and what action is required to get the results you want in the future? Action in terms of now...is not required for gambling what so ever so which the same as doing nothing as I see it which is the riskiest and most unpredictable means to have a future result that you want as far as I can see?
J
J, the aging brain
Submitted by dedelight4 on
In my husbands case, as far as possibly aging quicker, I think it might be possible. He turned 60 several months ago, and Ive noticed his short term memory and recollection of conversations has gotten significantly worse, and fast. So much so, that it's even bothering him. He doesn't admit to anything much, but this is very noticeable. He bought several books on "How to improve your memory", which is something he would have NEVER done in the past. He's also forgotten where he is going while driving, and then been getting LOST a lot lately, which is significant, as well as not being able to find his car in a parking lot. Much like how his mother got when she was diagnosed with Alzhiemer's.
I have read many times that people with ADHD and/or bipolar, have a greater risk of developing Alzhiemer's, which he is scared to death of. But yet again, he's not willing to TALK about it. Avoidance is still better and more comfortable to him than sharing his fears.
You ALSO hit the nail on the head when you mentioned about his "penny wise and pound foolish" way of doing business. I have watched him spend 100 dollars just to make 1 dollar........no exaggeration. He recently spent 10 years on a music project that I pleaded with him not to do. He spent about 15 thousand dollars on music computer equipment, to write music for a movie score that he was to get paid 20K for. But he's NEVER been paid, even with having signed a contract with the guy. Plus, 10 years of work (that originally waa only supposed to have taken a few months) where he put in thousands of hours behind the computer. This meant that WE couldnt do anything together because he always told me....."I have to work on the movie, so we cant go anywhere this weekend." He kept telling me he had to finish it because he couldnt let it go, but the movie DIED, and went no where. Had he invested even a tiny fraction of that time on US.......we would be in better shape, but he couldnt or wouldnt apply the same principle of "getting it done" to our relationship, PLUS, he would have recieved immediate benefits from ME. I dont understand it.
YES, he always put his job before me or our relationship, just so he could prove that he "did" something. The example of the "Little engine that could", was a fitting and perfect example.
Interesting, dede
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I have thought about this more lately also.
My question is more about "unaddressed ADHD". Because you can, through cognitive therapy, kind of retrain your brain I am of the mind.....if you don't....and let the ADD run your life....you could possibly be a little more susceptible to memory problems.
I am sorry your H is experiencing these moments. My sister died within 5 years of Alzheimers. She was 62.
I see, lately, my H's adhd "getting worse" if that's even possible? He is more and more unable to have the simplest of conversation, can't answer yes or no and appears , to me, to be lost in thought...ALOT. He can of course engage in what interest him but has seemed to back slid on being present with me or others. He just seems confused far too often.
He has often said he doesn't like routine.....and yet....he has such a routine of gotta go, gotta get done, go here, go there, no time......it is so sad. I see anxiety on the rise and driving him daily......and I have stepped back and am loving him from afar....I cannot live like that.
I hear the sad in your post and I am sorry.
Zapp and Dede....I've Seen This Too
Submitted by kellyj on
This memory thing you mentioned. I've seen this a number of times...and it seems to go with other things as well. I really can't say anything about how this relates to ADHD or not. But I personally believe this can be overcome...or caused by either doing things that stop the degeneration process but more in terms of going in the other direction to counter it. My personal theory I've privately supported for myself for years in thinking about this without having any evidence to support my own feelings about this? Just a gut feeling or..."how it feels" to me in a real viseral kind of way and montitoring it based on paying attention to this and connecting it to things that make me feel this way. (without knowing)
I ran across some factual evidence in support of the way I feel. Fascinating stuff and I believe it without question but I can't really say anything else to support this other than that.
https://www.ted.com/talks/sandrine_thuret_you_can_grow_new_brain_cells_h...
J
Brain training
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I appreciate everyone's posts. What you've written is on my mind, about my own relation. I went looking online for scientifically controlled or medically reported case studies of the combination of aging & ADHD and didn't find them, although maybe my look was too superficial. It looks to me like as for so many parts of adult ADHD, professional study of aging and ADHD hasn't been done much.
I do buy 100% the individual descriptions of lived impact of aging, or lack of aging on ADHD cognition and executive function, like the ones reported in this thread, what you, Dede, Zapp and J, report either about yourself or your ADHD spouse.
My questions right now about the combination aging plus ADHD are nature vs. nurture questions, what Zapp brought up about brain training.
As I did quick searches the last couple days on the net, for professional case reviews or formally constructed testing of ADHD plus aging, not turning any up, I did run across this article that coincidentally was just posted in The New Yorker, that indicates that at least for the tested group of people considered to be in advanced old age, there were practices of mind that definitely helped some mental functions:
http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/could-brain-training-prevent-deme...
Transferring from results of the testing described in the article to me and my hub, I understand that if he ..or I...don't USE certain mental functions regularly, the ability to do those things with the mind will wane.
This is an issue for us at home, though not an emergency one right now. To take one, from the beginning of our marriage, I became the "short term memory bank" for both of us and became the "executive function" of a wide variety of tasks that require noticing, remembering, field attention etc. For example, before we married I remember my husband losing important things, usually needed for his work completion, in his apartment on nearly a daily basis and going through these wracking, sometimes hours long canvasses of ALL the rooms of his apartment looking for them. He spent a lot of time doing that, a lot. Now, married and together, my husband doesn't try to find things. He asks me where they are. Sometimes that's sensible...they're objects I also handle and use, or put away, or clean. Sometimes that's not sensible. Why should I know where a piece of paper he set aside for himself, in one of his areas is?
I think there has to be a flip side to Carleson's "you eventually become what you practice most". It's "you eventually cease to be what you don't practice very often or don't practice at all" I do wonder if me becoming the short term memory bank for very much of our shared physical life means that my husband is using his short term memory less and less.
I saw loss of use of some mental functions happen very dramatically in my father who as far as I know didn't have ADHD. My father had never lifted a precious finger in the household...it was his time period and culture that men were served, and didn't do housework. He didn't practice putting things away. He didn't practice thinking about where they are. He didn't prepare meals. He didn't clean up and put away. Ever. He's not the only man of a certain age on the planet who was that far out to lunch about his physical environment, but the point is, once he needed them in old age, he had no routines or memories in his head about where things were or what to do with them in the house, and NO practice doing the short term memory problemsolving thinking to deduce logically where they would be and then go check there.
Well, much later, when my mother was hospitalized, he had aged enough, still never doing zip in the household, that he simply could not live on his own with her gone from the house. He didn't know where things were. He had no practices thinking about those things. Importantly, he had no routines and habits whatsoever that had to do with feeding himself, keeping himself safe, noticing things, and keeping himself clean beyond taking a shower. He had become what he practiced most, and was locked in, at that point of aging, because he then had the usual aging short term memory loss, weakened ability to decide and so on. There was no way that his short term memory, whatever was left of it, was going to kick into gear and help him get from "I'm hungry" to finding what he needed to feed himself.
Second, he did that with his body. I won't get into the details, because this has gotten too long, but by his own choices, and not unusually for someone aging into advanced old age, he had immobilized himself through increasing sedentariness. He ended up his last years completely unable to walk because of this. Once again, he became what he practiced most. It's been well demonstrated that even the most aged and sedentary can return some mobilty, flexibility and strength to their bodies, if they take up the practice of use of those parts of the body and do the practice properly and more than a flash in the pan. The loss of ability to stand up and walk meant loss of a great deal of independence, which is very hard for anyone, but especially men, to take...it's humiliating, or one can be humiliated by it.
I don't think people with ADHD are excused from these things. That's my bottom line in my relation. I haven't seen the kinds of things happening in Dede's husband, but I think my ADHD husband and I have some aging issues taht we'll both hit. To me, what I understand that my husband and I have any possible control over, are certain uses of mental function. If we dont use them, I do believe that they will decline.
Now....Being in the Game
Submitted by kellyj on
Now.....I already told the whole story of my friends father who was a bar owner...who drank and smoked heavily as long as I knew him and sat me down and told me the his secret in life.."never stop using your brain. Once your brain goes is when you will die and stop living"...as he was referencing this to working and learning and never stopping himself. He was the one who died in his sleep at age 93 and never had any chronic illnesses to speak of? While this doesn't suggest that he knew anything other than just some good common sense and the drinking and smoking should be avoided (good genes and dumb luck?) I still can't deny that there is a correlation to what I always knew and saw of this man the entire time I knew him and that was he never stopped being in the "Game" of life and never really retired. He worked continuously until his health prevented him from doing it any further well past the age most would consider retiring ( I think around 80 if I recall...part time but still showing up everyday and being involve with his business).
This guy was a working class...pretty much uneducated self made man who worked hard continuously all his life and had some vises that most would consider lethal. And yet....he lived well past the average without any serious health concerns. While this is still a mystery as to why this is.....as he sat there and told me this advise when he was around 65 at the time....there was something within what he said to me which he seemed to be very sure of himself. He certainly wasn't a Rocket Scientist or the the best example to live by in any other way....but as he said this...."just being in the "Game"...was his secret as I will always remember it?
As I see it...there's no 1/2 way...either your "in" or your "out". If your "in"...your "in" all the way. Once that fire goes out....is when you need to find another way to keep it burning and get back in the game:)
J
Yes, I remember this story you told well, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
And you're a person who has been very active in learning and trying it different ways, on your own behalf and in your relations.
I see it the way your father's friend sees it.
I didn't in the past.
Because I had my own years living in a black wood, and all that remains in my history...it's part of me... I have real sympathy for people who are under the weight of not having much hope, or faith in themselves or in other people.
These things: an underlying lack of hope or underlying absence of faith, are more than emotional problems that can be fixed by cognitive behavior therapy. Or tips. Or getting lectured about proper attitude by self help articles; you know, the usual stuff applied.
So while I'm now in a move it or lose it approach (and don't have any other option than that, as far as I can see; there's nothing more certain in life than death and taxes....and aging and bermudagrass ) and while now I am aware that how I interact with my husband can lead, in some instances, to not helping him or allowing him to deal with what he will have to deal with regarding aging that I can't take off his back, I know from having been there for a long time how hard it is for someone who has lost their way in denial or hopelessness, who can't be bailed out by anyone else on these matters, to find his/her way to playing his or her game differently.
Here's a shout out to those struggling with that.
You rock on, J : )
Yep.....All We've Got Left is Time
Submitted by kellyj on
I can speak from that place of hopelessness and dispair. And not seeing in light at the end of the tunnel. Struggle and pain are like death and taxes as far as I'm concerned. There's no getting use to it....but no getting away from it either. The best you can do... is doing your best everyday with the time you've got left and just keep plugging away and keep moving forward and not let others or things keep you down....even if they do force you there sometimes.
What other choices do we have other than this?