Finally...words that express where I am at...

Wow

Submitted by Terra on Thu, 01/12/2017 - 10:44

Thank you for sharing this. The differences between what men think women are saying, and what women are trying to convey makes this a good read in itself. That the writer reiterates how to find the key to reconciation - further translation of what was really meant, and misheard - makes this a powerful tool for understanding.

I think men "hear" messages from other men differently from things said by women, especially by their partners. Communication styles aside, I think the filters are different. Especially so, when their own hearts are hurting.

PS This article is about building/repairing loving relationships. I hope anyone wanting further insight reads it, sifting mentally if need be.

I agree with you on this, Zapp

Submitted by jennalemone on Thu, 01/12/2017 - 10:31

Yes, these are words that express something I know deep inside....How I thought and still somewhat think marriage should be and how men and women just are. Women NEED and really don't want to control but feel that we want to be cared for and valued and safe - when we can't depend on a spouse, we have fear which turns into other emotions to cope with our fear. Of course there are exceptions to this. I do know some women to do not need or want a man or anyone, but it seems to me the majority of women want a man to partner with and rely on.

BTW...on my screen there are words missing. I had to hightlight all text to be able to read all the words on your link.

Excellent Read

Submitted by vabeachgal on Thu, 01/12/2017 - 13:05

Think about it guys -- if a playful dog bit you every time you went in the yard with him, would you want to risk returning to the yard again? If a nearsighted dentist accidentally cut your gums or cracked a tooth each time you went in for a cleaning, would you want to entrust your mouth to him again? For you to trust him, wouldn't you need to know that he knew exactly what he had been doing and had a plan to buy glasses? For a woman, it is not entirely about hearing from her husband that he regrets what he has done or has a plan to change. Since it was her heart that was injured by the very one she expected to protect it, she must sense that he fully understands how she feels, and that he has become safe.

Until I read this, there was something I was driven about but could never fully articulate. Since lying has been such a problem in the marriage, I was obsessed with my H going to therapy and determing WHY he lied. My rationale was that if he understood why, he could control it and I could understand and relax. I was asking him to provide an answer that he ultimately could not provide. However, until just now I could not describe WHY I felt so driven in this regard: BECAUSE I NEEDED TO FEEL SAFE AGAIN.

I couldn't explain the emotion and even physical reactions surrounding his lifes. In a word - UNSAFE.

It was never about household chores. It was about poor decision making, lies, risks and feeling unsafe.

Great article.

Safety

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 07:59

For some reason, the article was absent on my screen too when I sought to read it. I began to listen to the audio of the recording, which was what came up, I dont know if there was supposed to be a visual. Broke off listening because a housework need was waiting. So I definitely dont want to enter a discussion of anyone's or my definition of what is born into men and women at birth, versus what humans in their own society with each other lay on anyone as expectation regarding ability, identity or responsibility. But I do want to enter the discussion of needing to feel safe.

I think the need to feel safe in one's home is very important. As is the need to feel safe at the hands ...mental or physical...of one's own partner or even at the hands of ones own children or parents or roommate. One needs to feel safe in the home. And certainly, one needs to feel safe in one's own marital bed, if one is sharing a bed with one's partner. I use "one" because I presume that these are baseline issues that any human being, at whatever age, possessing whatever sexual identity has.

Reporting only for myself and my women friends with which I later discussed it, not at all wanting to make any claims about large populations' marriages or sexual behavior: several years ago I read the results of a survey of women. To me the number of respondents was high enough to pay attention to patterns in their responses, as I remember it was about 300 responses, which were quoted in full. The question was put to them: what in your relating with your partner leads you to want to have sex, and what in your relating with your partner leads to turning you off, damping down your desire for sex?

There was variation in individual responses, but gobsmacking consistency on two or three things. Over and over and over again women said that their sexual desire for their partners shut down if a) they were physically exhausted and/or b) their partner was doing something that left them feeling unsafe. The third, but less frequently mentioned was that their partner came to bed hoping for sex but was physically stinky.

Well, to me that was a hello. I knew that when I was stoned with fatigue there was really and truly nothng left of me for having sex that night. Shoot, I had been LIVING that, with the extra work that piled on when I entered my present relation. And I'm still living that work pile...believe me constant physical fatigue batters my sense of my own femininity out of me. That was familiar, and I had understood that only I inhabit my body, so while I was in a relational ock and a hard place about the extra work on me, ultimately I was the one to figure out how to get more rest.

What I was curious about as what my women friends thought about the very high consistency in the survey respondents' report that if what their partner was doing to them, or had been doing to them led them to feel unsafe in the home, or unsafe at the hands of their partner, the women didnt want to have sex. Not as punitive refusal, but because it was alarming to have sex while carrying the feeling of being unsafe. To a woman, my friends reached back into their life history and said, yes, that's definitely true.

Reaching back into my life history, I can tell you that is certainly true of me. Is it a woman only thing? I dont think so, at all. But I DO report on it as a woman. I can tell you that it's an absolute, and I dont have a lot of absolutes about human matters, in my mind, that I MUST not only subjectively feel safe but also BE safe in my home and at the hands of and being treated in attitude and conversation by my husband.

I think, for myself, safety within partnership and cohabitation issues include a whole lot more than wanting or not to have sex.

I dont want to get into the particular details...this is an area that I work on directly with my husband...he has safety needs as well, as far as I can tell, some that he's bringing forward from his past, some due to features of his ADHD, and some just plain ordinary need for living in a reliable, sheltering, receptive situation. This is an area of relation for us to deal with off line.

Reporting only generally for myself, part of the shock and awe for me of coming out of the hyperfocus honeymoon of the relation into the after it period did very definitely include for me a lot of alarm, things not making sense, painful anxiety on my part at being shouted at and accused, lack of attempts to resolve conflict, etc etc. I CERTAINLY had safety issues, at first, all the while knowing that he would never try to harm me physically. I really do think he had no idea of the impact of the shouting, accusing, late at night winding it up to (apparently) unload some of his own anxiety on me. To thi s day, I dont think he sees the impact of what he does on people very well.

So it was my job to deal with my emotional safety with him, to learn what makes him feel unsafe that I was doing, to work out common practices that we both agree we want to do. Apparently, I married into the job of being the one to make sure that the interior of the house is safe: no burners on, no glass on the floor, sanitation, that kind of thing. I'm much better off on matters of safety than I was, and I think my husband as well shows signs of feeling like he's in a safe environment with me.

If anyone doesn't feel psychically and/or physically safe, I think its such an important matter for relationship that therapists ought to deal with it much more explicitly than I in my limited experience of therapy have seen done.

I think its a human given that if someone has been repeatedly lied to, or manipulated, or dissembled to, or attacked, or bitched at for everything, or gaslighted, or projected onto, or used as a dump, or mistreated in front of others, or carped at for what they look like, or left in the lurch or subjected to crazy road rage driving, or left to take the financial hit of cleaning up debt or paying for survival level expenses, with no contribution...that there is a big safety issue involved

Nowornever....

Submitted by Zapp10 on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 09:12

When clicking the link it brings up the site and on the left side bar is an article entitled Reconciliation with a hardened Wife. I did not listen to an audio and apparently it is somewhat different than what I read. I think you might find many identifying and clarifying comments where marriage...period....is concerned, in the written form.

Thank you, Zapp

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 09:29

I'll try again later today.

The Problem With Words Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 01/12/2017 - 15:45

I listened through this very carefully and as always.....I have a problem with this. ( no surprise!!! LOL )

The first and last mistake you'll ever make. Trying to fit....the subject to the thing. What ever it is? First and last mistake you'll ever make.

Instead of fitting the thing.....to the subject? What ever it is?

There is a fallacy or fallacious argument that goes into the things this gentleman is saying based solely on an assumption....that things are as they are...and that they will always be this way?

You shall......

You must............

and therefore.............

This is..........

They are............

It is................

Men are.............

Woman are............

And whole lot of unclear and really weird statements that make no sense or "lead you to believe" certain things are true? I find it a dishonest way of speaking based on a fallacy that EVERYONE IS THE SAME. It's the cookie cutter approach where all men and all women are the same in everyway that are distinctly different and there is no overlaps in these things?

Men ARE this way?

Women ARE this way?

Well Okay then....lets continue on with this way of thinking shall we?

Hermaphrodite's ARE this way?

Gay and Lesbian people ARE this way?

Identical Twins ARE this way?

Fraternal twins ARE this way?

Intersex people ARE this way?

Men with an extra Y chromosome ARE this way?

Men and women who have hormonal imbalances ARE this way?

etc etc etc........................And the list of variations and combinations of gender continuums and everything possible combination of thing that makes up what we call a man or a woman...can be anything and everything in between and we all exist on a continuum and no two people are exactly the same or like we were all created from this cookie cutter kind of mold? God didn't say that.....people did? We know this as FACT. Scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt? So where is this denial coming from...that says MEN ARE THIS WAY.........And WOMAN ARE THIS WAY????

As Jesus said himself. Perceiving...or seeing? Pick one. No playing both sides of the fence which is exactly what this guy was doing IMHO? You don;t get to cobble together parts of one and parts of the other..... and cherry pick the best parts ...and throw the parts you don't like out the window and go Vou La...it's a Master piece!! This simply doesn't work which makes no rational sense to me?

A look at the differences between boys and girls highlights the debate between nature (what we inherit) and nurture (environmental influences). The Bible clearly says in Psalm 139 that God knows each boy and girl before they are even born. Then He charges parents with the responsibility of providing a loving, nurturing environment in which their children can grow according to the design He has given them.

Well crap.....why didn't they say so? It clearly says that God knows each boy and girl before they are even born and it's all up the parents to make sure they grow...according to the design He has given them? That's absolutely crystalline clear and unambiguous to me? We are designed to do these things ( what ever they are? ) and that's it? Can't do anything about that now can we? We are all just designed to ONE thing and we incapable of doing anything else outside of our design as we MUST.....and ....SHALL do? We must.....procreate like Bunny Rabbits because...this is what we are designed to do? We MUST!!! Don't you understand....I had to do it!!! Like what this world needs most...is one more person in it or the world will stop spinning on it's axis and come to an end?

WHY? And who says?

In this tape recording....here are some things that caught my attention

"I am the weaker vessel..and more easily deceived?" Vessel? Like an empty container you just fill with your choice of fluids? LOL And more easily Deceived? Like woman are just dumber and more naive than men? Is that what that means? That's how I hear it....and that's how I interpret that?

And what is up with this part where he says....."Man is created in Gods image and Man is the term used for both men and women.....and he put the tender, caring, emotional half in women and together they are complete than when separate........ And he split up their attributes.,,,,,, #3 .......there is a chemical bath that occurs in the womb that ONLY happens to the male, and this chemical bath goes in and destroys the link between the left sid and the right side of the brain...and women NEVER have this, and they are able to access their creative emotional part and their objective part and they are able to go back and forth between these two sides of the brain with these active fibers...where as, with guys...by virtue and design at birth..... compartmentalize our emotions...and our rational thought. Now...this doesn't do justice to what I am saying...but a guy would look at this and go....Whoah!!! But as wise man would say....what is on my wife's heart."

Whoah is right!! OMG!! What the Hell is he even talking about!!! LOL ei yie yie!! Chemical Bath?? Like a wash tub or beaker you just throw some chemicals into dissolve the grease on a Carburetor? "And it destroys the grease like magic!!" This sounds like the Sham Wow guy pitching Sham Wow cleaning cloths? "And watch this!!! Sha Zam!! I can't give these away at this price all day long so you need to order by midnight tonight or else it will be too late. Order NOW!! "

And how come then...do we all start out female....if Man is created in the image of God? This makes no sense to me?? And then this mysterious chemical bath ( known as Testoerone ) comes in and destroy the link between the brains hemisphere completely...which NEVER happens to females ...Oh No...never ever happens and it says that somewhere or else he wouldn't be saying it of course.....which renders males or men...completely without this ability what so ever.

Well then....how come....I am...and have been better at creativity in Art my entire life....better than women or the girls in comparison? Truly. I won every Art contest I ever entered in grade school, Jr High School and High School and there were plenty of girls I was competing against? How does that work? Huh? And I mean....never was beat by a girl or a woman....never ever ever?? Something is rotten in Denmark...that's all I have to say?

In fact...the only person I ever ran across better in Art than me...was a guy. And he definitely was better without a doubt. I could not even hold a candle to this guy...but he became a drop out and never finished high school?

I'll stop being facticious here and say that I get...the body or content of what he is saying and I understand exactly the point he is trying to make? But the way he was going about it...and things he was saying are "soooooo wrong"...and so completely inaccurate.....I have a hard time believing someone like this...who doesn't know the facts or the illogic in what he is saying. He contradicted himself..in almost every turn in the rode...saying...You must.....and then turning in the same sentence saying "tendencies"...in this vague and completely unclear ambiguous language that sounded like he was cobbling together a bunch of bits and pieces in a highly disjointed way into one gigantic rationalization....in order to explain things that are readily known and easily looked up and established facts of medicine and science and replacing it...as I see it.....what he felt as he saw it....as he perceived it....from his point of view? As if HE KNOWS....as if it is all true ...like God was saying it?

I could go through and rip his statements and arguments to shreds and prove him wrong with substantiated facts of evidence to the point there would be so many holes in his logic and reasoning...I might say he was the irrational woman in this case based on his own logic and reasoning and the therefore's and the where as's...and Shalls...and Musts and the so.....and then concluding therefore this is the way it is? Behind everything he was saying?

The points and the conclusions were not wrong either.....but the pathway he got there defies all logic and reason to the point of absurdity and he is not even consistent in his logic and contradicts himself throughout his entire presentation... without making any logical connection to the these "statements"...to the points he was trying to make as to say....."and this is how you do it?"

Honestly? He really did sound like the Sham Wow guy...trying to sell a cleaning product or some cosmetic skin cleaner and showing animation video of little "scrubbing bubbles with smiley faces and who are all spinning with whiskers on tier little mustaches trying to clean the dirt partials ( clearly shown in as black flecks ) which just whisk away ...if seen under a microscope? Like as if I were to go into my bathroom and open the lid..and see a little man in a boat with a captains hat on who's name is "The Tidy Bowl Man"...and believe this is how that blue stuff actually works?

This does not compete what so ever which is why this is so hard to follow? I get...everything he is saying and agree with him totally? So why ...make stuff up like this...and not connect it to something real and understandable that makes sense but more over...is not just made up by him.....in trying to explain it without a shred or rhyme or reason involved?

We know this is wrong....in the facts of evidence...but we also know he is right...in the points and the body of what he is saying? If this isn't the source for confusion or ambivalence right there...I don;t know what else is? It's like purposeful denial....of anything real...and replacing it with interpretation based on symbolic representations of what we know is true and trying to somehow make a connection with complete and utter none sense language? And then thinking that you will believe him when someone does this?

I can tell you at least from my perspective...I am as tender, caring and creative...as any woman I have ever met...and I am very emotional and and am totally emotionally driven especially in the Art I do? Art...is pure emotion and symbolic representation as an abstract Art form but it's not a photograph...or a xerox copy of a picture...if you want to put it that way?

ART IS EMOTION and Emotionally Driven with emotional imagery and thought. So therefore....Men are not designed to do Art...and Women ONLY ...have this ability?

I don't think so? I think he needs to go back to the drawing board...and sharpen his pencils IMHO?

And ALL MEN....and ALL WOMEN...are NOT created equally or are all the SAME in respect to how they are designed and what they are designed to do? Unless you count ONLY...making babies? That part.....maybe I might buy into...but it doesn't mean you MUST....or SHALL...or else something is wrong?

But I will say however...that there are inherent difference between men and women and how they think about things...but that is more to do with what you parents taught you....not what goes on inside the womb and the technical aspects he was conjecturing so freely and creatively speaking?

And what the Hell? This guy ain't a Doctor...or a Scientist.....CLEARLY!!! So why is he pretending to be...and talking with the same authority assuming everything he is saying is true? And then expecting you to take his word for it.....just because....I said so? Who are you? Mr Know it All?? LOL

Zapp. I did this intentionally just so you know. I heard what you said...and I can easily take God out of the picture? But if you do that....then it's even worse if you were to just believe the things he was saying...and trying to apply it to reality that we live in our daily lives in a practical realistic sense or as a means to just follow this just as said like as if...it is "real" with no 'real wold connection" to it...to make sense of it without some kind that connection that seems to be missing to something real...which it simply is not...in the pathway or the logic behind what he was saying?

Very...non committal.....non specific.....vague and ambiguous? Chemical Bath? Give me a break? "Mind if I use your vessel...to clean my carburetors?? " LOL

J...

Submitted by Zapp10 on Thu, 01/12/2017 - 16:28

I don't know what you are referring to. The title to the ARTICLE (not a video/audio) that I referenced is Reconciling with a Hardened Wife.

I'm kind of thinking you aren't going to like that either.

Trust and Safety Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 10:47

I guess what I am referring to has more to do with Stereotypes forming preconceived notions or opinions about people in general....and what the guy in the video was referencing in compartmentalized thinking? And I am going back to something that seemed pervasive in my own family when it came to my mother and sisters which was just exacerbated by fear and fear alone? This is where assumptions and even prejudice come from which is primarily fear of the unknown turned against what you are afraid of which is actually extremely limiting ( aside from the obvious that prejudice is not a good thing or even has a flip side to it in a positive way? ) This is not me....taking the opposing side of this issue of prejudice as a person with ADHD thinking or feeling persecuted or unfairly treated by women in this respect ( or anyone else for that matter in that.....I understand from where I am now....that there are good reasons why people would respond to someone with ADHD the way they do?

I also feel pretty strongly however based solely on my own experience not knowing I had ADHD or not knowing (WHY?) this was....or shy I was being treated in the way I was at times purely from my own nativity and simply not knowing any better ( ignorance at the core ) which is at the heart of where this all comes from in the first place right from the start? It's useless for a person who grew up this way and is now finding out after the fact.....all the reasons why this was and coming to terms with this.....in thinking about the future from that stand point...compared to possibly thinking about a child who has ADHD and being able to teach them or show them these things ahead of time so they never get into this kind of situation in the first place? I can site one person ( a woman with ADHD ) who grew up in a nurturing home with a father who had ADHD and where the non-mother died...who seemed to somehow by-pass all these issues that seem to be so pervasive on this forum and when I talked to her about what she thought about this....she told me straight up....she was never singled out, humiliated, punished or reprimanded for being the way she was almost never in her memory of the past? Her father as she said....was just like her as she felt...and she was in the same respect....just like him in many of these issues that seem to such a source of complaint here on this forum?

In fact....the only thing she can ever recall in any form of being picked on or singled out in any way was talking during class in school and being sent out into the hall for a time out? I busted up laughing when she told me that since we both...shared that one in common?

The point I am making which really seemed apparent to me based on my experience....was that these qualities or even more blatant annoyances associated with ADHD were never seemed to be called out on or punished for in any way and she sailed through most of her childhood completely unscathed and almost without incident? Yet...as I was sitting there having a conversation with her about this....it was hard not to notice her extremely obvious tendency to interrupt you ( constantly )..and carry on which made it hard to get a word in ede wise or have a back and forth conversation and I will admittedly say....that I was like that....and then I stopped a long time ago since I absolutely had to in order to have a business and speak to clients, employees, and other business owners or managers I did work for on a daily basis? It was such a stark contrast from where I started and where I am now in just this ONE symptom...but as I have said before....that was the first symptom that I worked on and stopped out of necessity and survival in order to actually run and have a business? I had to do it...or fail. Do or die ....no if ands or buts? And I didn't have any concept of what ADHD was at the time?

So in this stark contrast in myself and what I saw in my female counter part? Was a childhood free of prejudice, fear, punishment and reprimand and never being singled out or never having to pay any severe price or cost for having ( what I see as hyperactive ADHD in a female ) which is as I understand...less common for girls and in that resect...this woman is quite out going and active even today and the we both shared in terms of out childhoods was she was an very athletic and is still actively part of a Soft Ball League and has been that way for years? Apparently...she was very good at baseball as a kid in school and after the fact as well and has continued on with this activity to this day? As she said...she was good at something and she was kind of a Tom boy and other girls didn't give her any shit? Out of fear in that respect in the fact that she was not a fragile (girly girl )...who was afraid of sliding in to home plate if you understand what I am saying? As she put it.....that...combined with a father ( her one and only parent who had ADHD ) made all the difference in the world for her?

But...as I said....these same issues or symptoms that I HAD TO do something about....she never had to or never had to in a way that has caused her that much concern except...according to her husband who was sitting there listening to this with her concurring in the same moment....sometimes as she said..."He just yells at me or screams at me to stop. and I stop...no problem?" LOL

And in respect to her husband....I think it is a problem in that one area....but apparently not with other things in the same way from a male female role reversal with ADHD being present?

So I am kind of doing an Apples and Apples comparison here with only gender being the only difference and how dramatically different ..our stories were and how they lined up which I cannot think...is not related to this very thing and the very point I was attempting to make her with you or anyone else as well?

And using my own family here and another suspected female with ADHD....my older sister who I can contrast in making a comparison to this other woman and so I don't blow past the point and speaking it again.....

Fear

Preconceived and assumed of what MAN and WOMAN IS...and notions or prejudice strongly influenced by beliefs stemming from the church and pervasive attitude of intolerance to things along with misconstrued attitudes which account for a very narrow range of what would be considered "Moral or acceptable behavior AS TAUGHT. Along with a very noticeable kind of fear of outsiders or fear of people in general resulting in a lot of anxiety behaviors looking a lot like agoraphobia and phobias in general? Fear of going out into the world and mingling with the crowd and fearing people in general unless there was some kind of assurance that they were "safe people" or "safe" to be around

This is how I am now applying this...and why I have a problem myself in seeing things from this perspective with what I know and what I see and how that plays out in contrast? What I see at the core or root of the problem is.prejudice. And it actually hurts the person who is predisposed to thinking in these ways MORE....than the person or persons ( any group you might pick ) that the prejudice is aimed against IMHO but of course...from a victims stand point being on the receiving end of it.....I might not be saying it this way if that were the case with me which at this point in time....what I am left feeling more of is distrust and this is what I distrust and why that is? Distrust is the source of fear...but it doesn't necessarily have to go directly to fear and more to lack of faith or lack of believing more to the point? Which for me as something I am truing to work on more with more awareness of it...is being cynical which you might say as being hardened myself if you really want to get down to it? I don't feel attacked or picked on or even need to feel defensive....but I have to say when I see what I see and see the hypocrisy in all of it....it does make me hardened and cynical and that much is true?

And if you stop and think about this with that in mind.....not everything related to ADHD is about fear or feeling persecuted and being defensive...but more in terms of being fed up and hardened and cynical more than other things you might consider? This is where with me to the point.....I Go "Fuck It"...and just stop caring any more? And there is only one cure I have found as cure for that...is to be open minded and not be prejudice myself?

And unfortunately from my own personal experienced with this? It appears the the most fearful group who will swear and fight you tooth and nail that they ARE NOT PREDJICE!!!!!! Are ferverent Christian folks like I experienced in my own family? And not just in my own family....but in my general dealings at large? I have never seen a group...as a group...more hateful and fearful of Gays and Lesbians...in my entire life than so called Christians...and in my mind, it come directly from this kind of language and talk that this man in the video was saying which I was trying to point to directly by showing that ALL MEN....AND ALL WOMAN........do not come from a cookie cutter mold or are the same in any kind of STEREOTYPICAL WAY? And to further make this point....Hate does not have to be present....for a person to be prejudice but FEAR does...;..further making this point? Fear and phobias in my mind...are directly related to anxiety disorders, OCD and a host of other problems including agoraphobia and generalized anxiety disorders to name a few? And the BIGGIE.....if you want to call it that...is all about 'Safety"...to the point?

What is prejudice anyway if you stop and think about the definition alone? Just look at all the associated words and synonyms related to just this one word?

Predudice

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

"English prejudice against foreigners"

synonyms:preconceived idea, preconception, prejudgment

"male prejudices about women"

dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior deriving from unfounded opinions.

"accusations of racial prejudice"

synonyms:bigotry, bias, partisanship, partiality, intolerance, discrimination, unfairness, inequality; More

racism, casteism

"they are motivated by prejudice"

Law

harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgment.

synonyms:detriment, harm, damage, injury, hurt, loss

"without prejudice to the interests of others"

verb

verb: prejudice; 3rd person present: prejudices; past tense: prejudiced; past participle: prejudiced; gerund or present participle: prejudicing

give rise to prejudice in (someone); make biased.

"the statement might prejudice the jury"

synonyms:bias, influence, sway, predispose, make biased, make partial, color

"the article could prejudice the jury"

Law

cause harm to ( with extreme prejudice )

So I guess in my mind...working backwards to the problem? The problem is predudice and where it comes from....that's the point?

And when it comes to being hardened or being afraid of moving and venturing forth, changing, taking risks and chances or being stuck, feeling trapped and all the other things associated with Fear, phobias, misinterpretation and all that goes with it?

Remove prejudice....open you mind and get rid of all those preconceived notions that were put there in the same way by the same method or source from which they came from?

And what do you have left when all is said and done? No Fear......and no prejudice...and no feeling insecure and un-safe?

And to illustrate this for you using the one person I know intimately well is my older sister to just use one example of this playing out in real time as I experienced it?

My sister has told me repeated that...as she feels....since she is short 5' 2"....she is afraid of going out in public or being in and around people many time because of it? She is I feel...the inattentive type of ADHD as I have speculated and I think her reasoning my self....is Bull Shit..and a rationalization personally hiding behind the denial that she has these kinds of fears, phobias and anxieties stemming directly from the source I just said as I personally witnessed this myself in my own experience? I am not saying she doesn't "FEEL"...unsafe. I am saying...she feels this way....not because she's short....which is the Bull Shit excuse for it IMHO? Being "short" has absolutely nothing to do with it and she is no more in danger or in danger of anyone else...than I am just to make a point?

Having been in harms way before as a bouncer at Rock Concerts.....it only takes two small people..to bring one Big strong person to their knees..and that one big strong person hasn't got a chance with against two people half his size? I and one other bouncer alone...could take on a Mountain Man and bring him down...and niether one of us were what you would cal...big people and this is exactly what I found being put in that very position?

And as I recall another incident in time with my entire family once...when it was a shared Birthday with some family friends when we all went to see Dick Dale...of all people...in a small club in town at the request of the Birthday boy ( not me the family freind ) so my older sister had ho choice if she wanted to be included? She was so nervous and up tight..it was not even funny and even my other sister was there as well...who seemingly was not having the same issue? ( she is an extrovert like me to the point? )

And my older sister was hanging back looking kind of rigid and stiff..and I went over to her and said "c'mon, I dance with you" trying to coax her out of he shell...and she blurted out..." I'm not going out there.....with THOSE PEOPLE".....referring to the patrons of this club who were all dancing and having a good time and appearing as threatening and dangerous as the same people you might see in an average grocery store at any given time of day anywhere? They were just people....having fun and dancing .....but in my sisters mind....THOSE PEOPLE..... were scary...and it wasn't because she was "short"......that much I am absolutely sure of?

It was because she was prejudice...and had preconceive opinions and fearful attitudes based solely on the fear of the unknown...and the unfamiliar who didn't seem to fit...into the Stereotype...she was taught as the ONLY people who are Safe? My older sister also has some anxiety related issue along with being kind of agoraphobic....just like my mother?

And it I go back to the description of Anxious - Preoccupied....as being the source for my mother and myself as an insecure attachment? Fear, trust, and lack of self confidence are the core features there and that is a fact. Those...are the biggies as the core feature in this style of attachment ....which has nothing to do with how tall you are, nothing to do with what gender you are....or how big and physically strong you are I can absolutely guarantee that for myself without a shadow of a doubt? This is the source from where the same kind of fear or phobias that I saw in my sister and my mother and it was exacerbated tremendously...by painting people in stereotypes directly from the same source and the same kind of language and the same kind of teachings that come directly from these assumptions and preconceived notions that MEN ARE THIS WAY.........and.......WOMEN ARE THIS WAY which is what my radar is so tuned in to pick up from my own experience with this?

And again....just from my own expereince with this and what I see persoanlly? Saying this differently putting this into perspective?

People...with the strongest "beliefs".....and who are rooted into only ONE RIGHT WAY......are the most rigid, unbending, and the most prejudice and narrow minded people in the general population...with the most fear,, the most phobias and paranoia and the least likely to be open to change...and te more opinionated and biased....than people who don't have "strong beliefs" or attitudes as people being ONE particular way and more open minded...more apt to take risks and chances and more likely to change...And....who tend not to compartmentalize people in general..and immediately put them into their place base of these "beliefs alone". And just to finish this point again....it has nothing to do with being "short" or being more vulnerable because you are weaker or smaller than everyone else? Like I said....my sister is Bull Shit when she thinks that's her issue....and with me coming from the same place with the same issues and resolving those and working through them now compared to my past? There is no way....no how....that I believe my sisters rationalization....coming from where I sit now....knowing what I know?

Being Hardened or Jaded. or cynical....has a source that I am all too familiar with myself...and the only cure for it IMHO....is NOT coming from what this gentleman was saying...with those same preconceived ideas ane preconceived notions...along with those same preconceived assumptions .....which is the very source for this kind of prejudice right from the get go? What he was saying indirectly speaking from the same attitude as if.....everyone is the same and everyone is just like me kind of way of speaking which is highly presumptuous and self righteous in itself ( from that kind of pulpit and speaking with that kind of absolute kind of assurance and conviction as if to say...."I KNOW" ) is actually very ignorant and inaccurate especially when the facts of evidence being sighted in scenically incorrect and misleading...is actually "leading you" and making "leading statements"...."leading you right down the garden path to prejudice" in how heard it in the same language being used? That's the source the same source of prejudice that I and where I learned it and when you are inside the circle and don't even know it.....you don't realize the the person speaking to you is inside the circle as well? Inside the circle is the prejudice and decisiveness comes from and the only way to get rid of that...is to step outside the circle which is the only cure? That;'s exactly what I heard as it came through to me......a person inside the circle of prejudice....speaking directly to and assuming that others are just like him...to people just like him as if....WE ALL are just like him...who are also inside the circle as well? If anything...it's presumptuous and scientifically incorrect and can proven as irrefragable "fact of evidence" speaking in modern terms and what we now know as fact without question? It doesn't mean anyone has to believe the facts of evidence that go contrary to some ones belief system but comparison to the times in which those things were written ( by peopleor the authors of the texts themselves ) you have to consider the audience and what they knew then...and compare to what WE know now? We are all geniouses compared to people 2000 years ago....so why would you quote "sentences" as if they are fact.....when we know the facts are different know from over 2000 years of learning and evolving from the primitive people that existed at the time in comparison? They were beyond uneducated in that....most of them didn't even know how to write and certainly not read in the general population? No Free Information and internet and no way to verfigy or validate that anything was accurate or correct? But now we do and we have all those things that they didn't;t have and we know a quantity of knowledge and information to work from ...along with the science to back it up and prove it just to be sure? I'm saying to throw the baby out with the bath water....but when I hear things that say women are just stupid vessels and are considered chattel and only half a person without a husband?

That to me sounds like prejudice and categorizing and classifying women unfairly and not accurately which makes the short hairs on the back of my neck stand up and raises my Eire...just so you know? In my mind....standing up for women here in general....he was speaking extremely disrespectfully of women in very generalized and a very stereotypically (Male kind of archaic and ignorant ) and prejudiced kind of way? In that respect....you're preaching to the choir here with me...just so you know?

"And unfortunately from my

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 09:36

"And unfortunately from my own personal experienced with this? It appears the the most fearful group who will swear and fight you tooth and nail that they ARE NOT PREDJICE!!!!!! Are ferverent Christian folks like I experienced in my own family? And not just in my own family....but in my general dealings at large? I have never seen a group...as a group...more hateful and fearful of Gays and Lesbians...in my entire life than so called Christians...and in my mind, it come directly from this kind of language and talk that this man in the video was saying which I was trying to point to directly by showing that ALL MEN....AND ALL WOMAN........do not come from a cookie cutter mold or are the same in any kind of STEREOTYPICAL WAY? And to further make this point....Hate does not have to be present....for a person to be prejudice but FEAR does...;..further making this point? Fear and phobias in my mind...are directly related to anxiety disorders, OCD and a host of other problems including agoraphobia and generalized anxiety disorders to name a few? And the BIGGIE.....if you want to call it that...is all about 'Safety"...to the point?"

Hm.

I'm pretty sure that you just told me to fuck off. Your words performed that, chosen as they were, and laced as they were in the sequence of posts.

As you like, J.

This Is Such a Difficult Topic to Speak Openly About

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 11:35

NON,

This is such a difficult thing to bring to any discussion without having it do...what you just experienced here? What or how....can I say this differently? I don't know? What I do know is this? From my experience only...and referencing my own family just to start.....I was hoping to isolate what I said in referencing that in a more specific way? That is not to say that I have not run into this in other ways within the same set of circumstances and some of this comes from a discussion I had with my T over this very thing related specifically to me about this very thing?

The diagnosis I threw out were related to only the people I knew within my own family and that much is where this discussion started in my T's office? What he said in relationship to this...had to do directly to Gay clients of his...who had come into his office with as he said it...;"so much self hatred of themselves and so much heart ache and pain.....that would not be there if it wasn't from the Hatred and prejudice they have received in the general public at large?"

This came from me relating a true story that my father told me "proudly" as he recalled it from his youth? As he said....there was a man in a bar that he and his friends ( somehow knew was gay? ) or at least they thought he was? And as he told the story...he told how they drew straws and to pick...who would be the one to go up and pretend to be gay and lure him outside and he drew the short straw himself? As he continued....he said he had a drink with this guy and then asked him if he wanted to leave with him and the guy said yes and followed my father outside and around the corner of the building where his friends and himself...proceeded to kick the shit out this guy..and left him there bleeding and injured?

And my father was actually telling me this directly...when I voiced an opinion against prejudice against people who are different and that was he his reply to me...as I took it....what you do with people who go against God and what the bible tells you seeing how he saw himself and a Christian....a Catholic no less from his beginnings? And father is not alone in this thinking....even if others may not do to the extreme in that kind of violence...and thinking that this was good.....only because as he interpreted it.....Gay people are sinners or bad and are bad for humanity and bad for society and this is what we do with bad people....so you better get with it??? That;s the point of the story...and that was the same point my T was making with me as well during this discussion?

If it wasn't from prejudice and seemingly...using this as the source? Those people...as he said it.....wouldn't be in his office and coming to him with this host of personal problems and issues?

Is this to say ALL Christians are like this? Of course not. Is this to say that some Christians are like this? Yes? Am I speculating that more Christians who are like this are more predisposed to using that as a means of excuse to do this? I'm thinking so from my experience? Am I thinking that Christianity is the problem? No. Am I thinking that Christianity is a source for classifying people in this way as far a Gays on concerned? Yes. Am I thinking that more people with this kind of thinking come from this source or where it starts?

In my experience....the answer is yes...but I cannot speak for anyone else outside of my own experience however.....when I see a group of people...any people...who have done nothing to harm or hurt anyone and who have been brutally attacked like my own father did with his friends in his youth ( like 3 or 4 against one..and beating him and left him there on the ground ) and pulling out the same reasoning for doing this...as something that comes from the same belief system and using that as the reason?

I don't know what else to think or say.....but it doesn't;t mean it didn't happen either?

What I can say if this NON. I've tried my best to be the Christian person I was raised to be....but with the experience I have along with those stories ( first hand from my own father the Church going Christian ) and my own experience with this and hearing this coming from my T as well from his professional experience and dealings with this....I don't know what to think honestly...but more importantly.....I don't believe this is right...and it makes it hard to be a Christian which I have tried very hard to be...but am ashamed to put my name on the roster...when this is what I know?

I am sorry...and apologize to you directly....if you yourself took this onto yourself or as if....I was condemning everyone who is in any faith or belief? If I wasn't stressing this enough in the things I was saying.......it's prejudice that's the problem and I very much am extremely open minded when it comes to anyone along these lines...unless I see the end result being what I see...and directly associated with the word. Christianity...and coming directly from this as being the source at least?

But in respect to what you just said NON? Can I ask? If I say I believe this is what I see from my own experience as I said? How is that telling you directly to Fuck Off....if I am attacking what I see is wrong within a beleive system being used as a means to to propagate these ideas....if these ideas are the cause or source...for someone being taken out in a back alley and having the shit kicked out them....just for being Gay...and using the only source I know of....that says this is somehow wrong to be this person?

It may be....that these people don't need an excuse or a reason or source for this kind of violence but....it the only source I know of or have ever heard referred to personally...as a means to justify this kind of behavior...which appears to be the only source I know?

What I do know without question NON....and I have doubts what so ever.....that you are not of that mind set that thinks this is a good thing either? I can assume that without knowing anything more and I don't believe that either? If I can apologize for anything with you personally.....I know that without question and further....by no means think.....that this is the fault of any belief systems what so ever? In that much...if I have offended you...then please accept my apology? I only wish I could have the faith and trust I need in order to believe what I don't believe is true and that again...is basing this only on what I know..and what I have seen and heard with my own two eyes and ears? That's all coming from a personal note of regret that I can't seem to find the way to do this for myself which is my loss....not yours.

I don;'t care where it comes from or what the excuse is....bigotry and prejudice against any group for what ever the reason that excludes them or singles them out to ridicule, abuse, hatred and violence....is bad...not matter what the source is?

Just chiming in here...

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 23:00

J I would just like to say I understand some of what you are saying about believers or fervent Christian folks as you stated it....Why do you think that is? I can only speak for myself here. I grew up with, just like all flesh, and all believers, "a carnal mind"...Roman's 8:6-8, Genesis 8:21...Thus, much confusion in the living of life!...So as a believer just what am I being saved from?? My Sins? Sure...And what else? If you guessed my carnal mind (my thinking) you would be right!...Just like all believers, so will a believer have to repent? daily? This one does....7 X 70...Isn't that what Jesus said?? How easy is it to slip off into my carnal thinking (prejudices, attempts to save my own life??) vs a mind that is renewed in Christ and spiritual? Maybe for some who are wiser than I it's easily avoidable, but, I've not mastered it....My Pride I guess, along w/all my other crap....

As for as prejudices, no one had to teach me those, and only One can save me from them....Also, I think (got it on good grounds) all who live contrary to nature, are only standing up for their own desires and their own decisions...It's just free will, and personal choice; nothing more!.....And if who ever makes those choices, feels it's OK, and their right, then why bring it up?? In my thinking God shouldn't even be brought up in this scenario...God has made it very clear about his feelings concerning all things...This isn't any different for those who have a heart and ear to hear...Here's just a couple of places....Roman's Chapter 1, 1st Corinthians 6-9-10...

C Understanding

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 01/14/2017 - 11:44

I think, I am no different than anyone else aside for one thing. I have ADHD and I was a victim of abuse. I think, I can speak now of some things I've learned from this experience that may be, a more common experience for those of us who have ADHD and possibly more than anyone really realizes? Possibly? And saying this, with no intention or fault of anyone else, suffered a specific type of abuse that may not be so obvious to those who don't have it which merely come from not understanding the ways and means that we navigate this world. Simply put.

And even saying this, I have really begun to see that ignorance ( or not knowing better ) isn't even accurate in that, there is no way to know this coming from the side of those who don't have it? If you start from that place....it starts out the same for everyone involved including those who have ADHD. This is where fault and blame are taken completely out of the picture for everyone and no one is the wiser, or the more ignorant ......yet it still is a travesty and it still abuse none the less....not just for those who have ADHD but for everyone else as well?

This is where responsibility comes into play and isn't this one of the Hot Topics here on this forum? Who is really responsible for this and what can be done about it? If I had to sight one single cure or source for this myself as a means to overcome this aspect of having ADHD? I would have to point my finger to the one thing that has actually made and impact on this abuse aspect of having ADHD, which has given me the ability to overcome this for myself? Just to start...not saying "I have overcome this"....to be sure?

It wasn't from working on my symptoms as a means to compensate for them.

And it wasn't from taking courses or reading up on the information and becoming aware of them in literature even though, that was a start including books like "Driven To Distraction" by Dr Hallowell which was actually the first book that I read on the subject. In saying this....there were some points in the book, that things were said that resonated deeply with me and have stayed with me as a means to help me navigate my way around this which certainly was part of the cure for sure...just to point to the cure again without saying what that is exactly ( yet...... be patient...I'll get there lol )

And it wasn't from going on medication or working on my symptoms that way in improving on them and working on them either?

If you look at all those things I just mentioned....these are the obvious things that everyone wants a person with ADHD to do? Improve on the symptoms, that cause them distress? That really is....what everyone else wants from us. Simply put?

But in the same sentence, and reminding everyone that with no fault or blame or intention as I said......what is that We want and Need ...as a means to overcome this abuse as said? These symptoms don't really bother us that much and it certainly doesn't "hurt" us to have them? They don't hurt us at all...so the symptoms themselves are somewhat supercilious to us in a more arrogant way of saying this? Indifferent might be closer than arrogant as far as others we are concerned when it comes to how others might see them, which is why I believe we come across as selfish or even Narcissistic at times which again...is just another symptom to throw in there with the rest of them but it's not the source or the real problem that causes others distress even though they might think so looking at it from the outside in?

From the outside in...or from the inside out? That really is the key here, and actually the failure ( with no fault of anyone else ) on the part of others without ADHD, in not realizing the real cure for this which does comes across as very selfish and Narcissistic looking to us....in the same way at times, coming now.... from the other direction as we see this from others who see us this way from our perspective? To us...others appear very selfish, arrogant and rather Narcissistic as well so if you can see the corollary here going back and forth....there is a balance of sorts that evens this out that apparently is not easy to everyone to see?

What everyone else wants this from the outside in? And what we want...is from the inside out? And if you can't see the conflict here....then you won't be able to understand the cure? From everyone else perspective....coming now from you......you want this from the inside out yourself...and thinking that we need to do this for you....from the outside in because the symptoms themselves are what you are most concerned with and how they effect you? This is the critical point of no return here....literally and figuratively speaking? "No return"...are the operant words here?

Everyone, is most concerned with how these symptoms affects them...from the inside out.....not the outside in and that is where the abuse begins and ends in my mind when you come to realize the error in your ways. Saying.....for everyone ADHD or not?

Saying....a person with ADHD is not so concerned with how their symptoms effect inside out? We are mostly concerned with how these symptoms affect us...from the inside out which is why we don't seem to care or why we appear selfish at times but selfishness has little or nothing to do with it honestly if you can understand what I am saying?

Also saying as I now understand this myself.......Everyone else is mostly concerned with how these symptoms affect them...from the inside out..and mostly don't really care or are really all that concerned ( what so ever ) with how these symptoms effect us from the inside out at all? Mostly, people in general, could really give a damn at all , or actually really care as long as they don't have to confront them at all...or really care all that much in how they effect us...from the inside out? To say that you do...or to say some stranger on the street really gives a rip about how we are affected by it, is not being honest if you really stop and think about it? As long as it doesn't affect them....then no one would care anyway?

This is a paradox that is the source for a great deal of conflict and resentment on the side of those of us who have it? What this means is hypothetically speaking....

If a person with ADHD were to manage all these symptoms completely and perfectly all the time....everyone would be happy? Right? Not so fast!. The person with this ability...would have to be putting out a lot of effort and self control all the time...to a level of performance that would require a great deal of effort and skill in order to accomplish just to make them invisible for everyone else benefit? The expectation from others might be met....but at what cost to the person with ADHD doing it for them? This cost apparently...is somewhat an unknown quantity except for the person who has it..and mostly...is never considered or appreciated in kind? Mostly...what you get from this at the end of going through this...is simply people not getting angry with you or annoyed with you anymore? That's it. That's all you get for all your hard work and effort which begins to lose it's appeal or even any real reward for doing it after a while? So why put out all that effort for everyone else..if this is all you get for doing it? And the fact is....no one else any concept of the what it takes to get there so for us.....the amount of effort and labor and amount of work to get there....seems pale in any reward you get which is not equal to the energy it takes to get there which is absolutely true? What do you get in return...or as a payoff for all that hard work and effort than no one seems to have any idea about and they pretty much...don't care anyway?

So why even do it in the first place if that is the case? That is...if all you get from it...is that people stop being angry with you? What actually happens and using myself as a means to explain this...for me.....I just stop giving a shit....and stop caring if people are angry with me and ignore them completely and just go about my business as if they don't even exist? Other peoples anger over my failure to put out and put up so much energy and effort just so they won't be angry.....is really not worth it...so between the two.....I will pick myself...over them...most of the time if that is the case which is the case more often than not...where ever you go? And to a certain degree in the general public....it really doesn't matter anyway? That ain't my problem...if someone doesn't like me because it "having everyone like me"....is really not my goal anyway? I've got more important things to worry about.....than if some stranger on the street "likes me" and if that respect...I care about as much about their personal problems....as they do about mine so that's a wash anyway you want to look at it...and it's really not a problem unless I am doing something that causes some direct damage to them...which most the time...."annoying people" in general...is no damage at all? People annoy me all the time...and it's really no skin off my nose if you stop and think about it? And the same goes for them as well and if they can't get past that part ( as I do with them ) then that really is their problem not mine in exactly the same way in return? That is not the abuse I am talking about..and no one is the wiser there either?

The abuse....comes from exactly this place with no intention and with no awareness of this on both sides when you consider what I just said? In your close and intimate personal relationships with people on that level which is where that same pervasive attitude...no longer applies. For the most, and depending on the person that person and who that person is? There is no fault...or blame...to this apsect either, and everyone acts in their own best self interest and everyone is selfish in this way..across the board? In my mind....no one is more or less ....selfish and Narcissistic here and everyone is to blame for that aspect and no one wins in that debate because everyone loses and there are no winners here? That is the recipe...for a lose / lose scenario right there and the reason why our relationships fail.

Everyone loses...and no one wins!! That is the abuse.....right there IMHO.

So seeing the obvious here ( as I am saying this now as obvious to me and not assuming everyone else see's the obvious like I do? ) What do you think the obvious answer or cure is here? If it isn't obvious to you....then I can't help you with that personally? I think you will have to figure that one out for yourself...on your own?

But for me....I can tell you the answer for this and the cure for it on my end of the equation...and it came from "insight"....which I learned from my therapist. That is the only cure for the abuse in my past...and no amount of working on my symptoms for everyone else benefit....did much to recover and heal from this type of abuse at the hands of others with no intention, blame or fault on their account...and no way for them to know either? Which is also why....if you were to listen to what others think...the cure is.....they will be totally off the mark..and thinking in terms of the same problem in the same way...and the same approach....that this type of abuse is born out of which is selfishness and thinking in terms of our own best self interest?

No matter which side of this you are on.....acting, thinking, speculating guessing or trying to come up with a solution for this...if you are trying to apply it from the source in thinking about how this will effect you either positively or negatively.....you are already making the first and last fatal error or mistake in trying to do anything...and not doing it correctly?

The first and last mistake you will ever make in doing anything no matter what you are trying to do?

Trying to fit the "thing".....to the "subject". Instead of fitting the "subject"......to the "thing".

This is the Universal secret in performing "Art" as I have found....so if you want to be an "Artist of anything"....you need to understand this basic concept first...before you will ever be successful in doing it? At least this is what I have discover for myself which is not something you learn out of a book but by doing it...repeatedly until you finally understand why this is so critically important and why we all fail in doing it....until we understand this?

What I have found which is the next obvious thing to me? Just simply understanding this is not enough and that is just the first step on the right foot? If your 1rst step is wrong.....every step after that will be wrong too so that is just the beginning.....the hard part comes when learning how to apply it and apply it well....which is the hardest part of all? That takes years of practice but saying this as an another absolute truth and Universal secret in performing Art of any kind?

There is no end or finish line? There is no winner or loser in Art? You never get there...because there is no there? The illusion or fantasy of perfection....does not exist? You cannot get there.....from here...because "there" does not exist in the first place?

As Jesus said in the parable of the sower ....C? "It you cannot understand the meaning of this parable....how will you ever understand any of the parables? The sower sows the seed?"

Either you have what it takes....or you don't. Either...or....as far as I'm concerned? There really is no sitting on the fence? Either you are "all in"....or you are "all out". Total commitment or nothing at all? Anything less...and you will fail IMHO This applies to everything or anything across the board and is not just speaking about religion or spiritual growth? Call it what you will....or simply call it the Right Stuff? You've got to pay to play..and if you don't feed the kitty....then you're out. Everyone has got to pay the man...as they say? The Alpha and Omega in the act of performance and passion. All in......or all out? That's the choice you have every time in everything?

There you go C. That is the culmination of everything I have learned right there? As far as I can see it...at this time at least? Either you understand...or you don't? And you can't "make anyone" understand anything.....further making my point?

Thank you C as well....for helping me understand better myself. I hear you and I do think I understand ( for the most part at least? No one is perfect you know? LOL )

Ya know what J.....

Submitted by Zapp10 on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 11:02

I think you are truly an interesting person.I love your willingness to put yourself out there. I believe you truly do "think" about life and all it's ins and outs.I believe you when you express no desire to offend....most of us here try to follow that too. You make me laugh, think, pause, consider and disagree.

I say this honestly as I sit here chuckling to myself..........I gotta be HONEST J........despite your wife's having some major difficulties thus far in life......there is NO DOUBT for me.....you have to be driving her NUTS sometimes.......and I say this because you and my H are a lot a like in having an "opinion"( which loves to be the opposite of what someone says)......and living WITH THAT daily.....sometimes.....is not alot of FUN......because in the end........you(like my H) really do want your opinion heard AND valued(as being the right one).......just sayin'

Thanks Zapp I Know!!

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 12:18

I do know this as far as what you said...and I try and keep that in mind everyday with my interactions with my wife. And just so you know.....I think we turned a corner too. As I have kind of said in more words...the process of learning and understanding this process it takes to get out of denial...comes in stages...with plateaus like going up stairs? If I stand back and look at this pattern in our relationship....my wife will hit a point and want to give up right on the edge of another break through to the next level? Each time this has happened....a new level of communication and understanding is achieved but not without those moments of despair and getting through it...which I have been kind of pushing against what I see that is wrong...and working against what is wrong...and truing to do the right thing myself each time...( sometime against what I am feeling ) That in itself I guess...is another leap of faith without knowing what will come from it? There is no rule book or guide in the right way to do this so the only guide I have...is myself and what I believe is right?

And the biggest problem I seem to face as I think about his with anyone but especially with my wife as I see her and I together? Is fighting against what she believes....if what I see in what she believe is wrong?

And in what I was saying to NON in wanting very much to believe in something that is good or right and using that as something I call my own? I just remembered my fundamental road block to calling my self a Christian...and this goes all the way back to my childhood again....but it brings to the same place as before and I still fundamentally...cannot get past this in order to say I believe?

I cannot believe or refuse to believe...anything or any belief system that excludes one human being from being part of it...or as I recall my biggest concern going all the way back to my childhood and repeatedly asking the same thing? What about everyone who is not a Christian and are of another faith? They all burn in Hell...and only Christian go to Heaven as I was taught? And the answers and the responses all seem to tap dance around the fact....that the answer is yes......everyone else is excluded...and only Christians get to be saved and go to Heaven?

I cannot accept this. I cannot buy into any system of belief that has exclusive rights or privileges and classify one human being over another because I believe that is wrong. And I cannot believe that if God is Love...and if God made us all...that he would throw all those other people in the garbage and let his creation burn and only the good ones....get to be rewarded? I will not accept that this is true if God is Love and God Loves his creations all the same? And if this is true...and I go against what I believe....then I would rather burn in Hell....than betray myself and what I believe and burn with the rest of the riff raff and the refuse of God?

And I feel so strongly about this in how I feel about this personally...a part of me thinks that I will just take that chance...and go with what I feel is right...and take that leap of faith on my own....even if no one else believes what I do. To the point in saying everything I just said?

So what its worth Zapp....I apply that to my wife and our relationship as well? If I have any reference or anything to guide me....it is what I know is right...and what I know is wrong...and nothing more than that?

Very well said, J....:)

Submitted by Zapp10 on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 15:28

I so get your take on Christian faith. My own understanding? Jesus calls us to love. THAT commandment has been SO overlooked and ignored.Hello?....guilty here myself....but striving forward. The bibles message has never changed .....but the interpretations and delivery over the years....oh my. Those who went before are a product of their parents beliefs and so on.....we all know how that happens. Not being judgmental?......THAT appears to be the harder aspect to NOT do for so many people. So we CHOOSE negativity and nasty over love and joy? Seriously? Oh I could get started here......LOL. I seek the "peace that passes understanding" and am very careful in listening to others when they speak of their faith. I prefer to "see" what a person does than take their words as true. If they line up.....great. If they don't.....then I hope for them to someday know God's love....in the meantime.....they might be a new friend....or not.....but NOT because they don't meet my faith beliefs. It's called MUTUAL RESPECT. Christians who talk TOO much about the "don't do's" are narrow in their view of God's gift of life.As for heaven and hell........that is Gods business....not mine. HE states clearly that judgment is his doing.....NOT OURS.

The generations before knew what they knew.....much like my own daughter will say years from now....about me.

J, you might like Richard Rohr.......I am just thinking...maybe.....

It Really Isn't All That Compicated .... Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 16:34

For so long I struggled over this to the point of so much pain and internal dialog and depression...that I finally threw my hands up and took just one thing with me and stuck in my back pocket?

"Treat others...as you would have them treat yourself ( or you )" The Golden Rule. It is the perfect universal undeniable..unagruable truth that if you or I could apply that perfectly....there would be no problems? What else do you need to know or rule to live by? If you could apply this to every decsion you make about your spouse or anyone else, it works and always works..and there is no flaw in the logic either? Perfect in everyway?

Is there any other rule or need to know more than that? It's the only rule that I had with no other beleif system or any real belief in anything other than in that one....and it worked for me any time I needed to access some kind of guidance with no where to turn or anyone to ask and you know.....I don't need anything more than that and really never had to know the right thing to do any time?

Jesus said that one too...but he was not the first one either? The Ancient Chinese version by Confusous says

never imposed on others ....what you you you your self would not choose for yourself

One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself (positive or directive form).

One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (negative or prohibitive form )

What you wish upon others, you wish upon yourself (empathic or responsive form)

Any way you slice it...it still bread don't you know? ha!

Zapp You Were Right

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 01/13/2017 - 17:44

Richard Rohr

"The Bible is the worst book when it is used for bullying and self-justification; it is the best book when it is used for the healing and transformation."

I think that was the abbreviated version of what I just said?? LOL

What Drives You Nuts? Zapp

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 01/14/2017 - 13:24

I thought you'd like to hear from the horses mouth....what drives my wife nuts. This will be no surprise....but what may surprise you or even for some, you may not consider the reason for....which has everything to do with conflict around the house? And this is absolutely related to managing ADHD symptoms....not the symptoms themselves? You might find this interesting?

My wife has been asking me ( and me agreeing with her in that we both are driven nuts by something that keeps happening that we both don't like ) I installed this wonder gadget that I bought to WiFi the cable signal from the cable box directly to the TV without wires running from the TV the box so the Tv sits on the wall like a picture with no wires showing? Perfect right? Well....if it worked perfectly it would but it doesn't and that's the problem. And there is nothing wrong with the gadget as I looked up on the internet that everyone has the same complaint with this thing...in that it sporadically interrupts itself right in the middle of a show..and has to reconnect itself which becomes really annoying after a while? Now what?

Well, now what means very creatively and with a fair amount of squirreling the cable around and running cable all over the house in a maze to finally getting it to go behind the Tv through the wall and connecting directly to achieve the same effect with no wires showing which is really a pain the ass I was hoping to avoid by buying this gadget instead? This is the part my wife has no concept of ...and thinks...."well, just do this!!" Not so fast. There is no...."just doing this and it magically just happens" A problem my wife has in seeing these things that I don't have? None the less...that is not the issue and I have told her that when I get the chance...I want this as bad as she does so there is no problem there? There is a bit of a problem with this..."just do this"..kind of thinking on my wife's part...but she has no abilities in these areas and she really doesn't know what she is talking about so I can easily let that go and not buy into her inability to understand how this works in order to actually "do it".

So just this morning...I told her that today is the day and proceeded to take the spool of cable wire I have and place it right next to the unit where the cable box is so it will be there when I get to it later in the day? But more importantly....I do this so I won't forget now...after I already said I would which is exactly what I always do...as that visual back up reminder just in case. And the second I walked away from doing this...my wife calls me back and wants me to move the cable? LOL And I told her why I did it this way...and she said.."well you need to be considerate of other poeple" which I new what she meant by that?

And here's the deal...and here in lies the conflict? I even asked her to make sure directly...what she was having a problem with in the fact...that this cable spool was sitting out of the way right next to where I need it later.....and as a reminder so I don't forget because I've got a couple other things to do first and I am not going to it right now...as I said?

And she answered me and this is what she said. "I don't want to see things in my living space that don't belong there."

"I don't want to see things in my living space that don't belong there." There you go. That's what drives her nuts. Nothing else to it...straight to the point. And there is no other reason outside of this in this particular "nut driving thing" either? No need to discuss this or need to analyze why? I actually understand all of that too...but as far as my wife is concerned....it is that easy to understand?

The problem I have and what drives me nuts? I live and die...with visual reminders around the house and I do it for that very reason...so I will remember and not forget? Living without visual reminders like this....drives me absolutely insane..and I forget things. can't find things and can't keep track of anything without my sticky notes. visual cues and external remembers in place to help me manage my ADHD. To the point of exasperation and failure without them?

So....in order to be "considerate of my wife" so I don't drive her nuts......I am stripped of my ability to manage my ADHD effectively ( or optimally) and have to concede to her not being "driven nuts"....which drives me nuts instead which is what I have to do...to live with her....since when she goes "nuts" compared to me......I'd rather be driven nuts myself since the cost is just not worth it to me? If I have to be driven nuts by not having my visual cues and external reminders in place...and then have to deal with my wife being driven nuts on top of it....I'd rather be driven nuts myself..and suffer the consequences when I fail without them which is a few shades less worse...than the alternative.( Monk ) As put?

There you go Zapp. Straight from the horses mouth. LOL

PS Just to be sure....."fear" or "lack of trust" on my wife's part that this "thing" ( the spool of cable wire ) being left there and sitting there forever is NOT....part of this issue. I have eliminated that possibility here and know that for a fact at this point.. and in case that was a possibility that I hadn't thought about here... that is not the issue in this particular case.( Monk ) Just to be clear. LOL

Man if we all just learn to chill; I know life will be easier:)

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 01/14/2017 - 17:09

("I don't want to see things in my living space that don't belong there.")

REALLY?....It's a good thing she didn't marry my wife, or she would live a life of deep disappointment!

Sorry couldn't help myself! LOL...

C Support

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 01/15/2017 - 03:26

C Please! Help yourself all you want, as I said earlier...it's good to know you are not alone in these things. Knowing you are not alone is support for me and good to know you are not along in these things no matter which side you are on? Taking from what you said...if we could learn how to chill? Meaning? Taking things in stride? Not deferring your own responsibility onto others? Blaming and finding fault and accusing others for your own disappointments and annoyances and irritations? Looking for what is wrong instead of seeing all that is right? Catastrophic thinking in terms of everything becoming a big deal down to the tiniest mishap or anything that ever goes wrong and always blaming and finding fault in anything and everything that ever happens in your life that you don't like and making mole hills into mountains? As if, it's your spouses or SO's responsibility to some how make sure nothing ever goes wrong and nothing ever happens that "makes us unhappy"?

Or in the bigger picture.....expecting that your life that was worse or bad before you got married...to somehow magically be better and expecting your spouse to "make you happy" when you weren't happy in the first place to begin with? Like somehow by magic.....expecting your life to be better and you to be a happier person....suddenly over night just because you are with another person compared to being alone and living by yourself? Like as if somehow....there is some expectation that your life is suppose to be better, you are suppose to be happier, that you life was somehow suppose to be easier and have fewer problems and your world is somehow....by magic.....going to be picture perfect once you get married....even those none of things were like this...before you got married?

As if somehow....by magic....all of that is somehow possible and is the responsibility of this person you choose to marry....their responsibility and if they don't fulfill this fantasy for you....then you are angry and disappointed because that person didn't do all of that for you somehow by magic even though you were unable to do that for yourself before you got married?

Like somehow....there is some obscure unwritten rule or law out there in some unknown rule book that says that this is the way it works and this is the way it's suppose to be...and when all that responsibility that you feel is the other persons obligation to you and you place on that other person without their awareness of such said....unknown and unseen rule book somewhere that no one knows of and only you know those rules but mistakenly think...that the person you are with knows those rules too? And assuming they do without even telling them this is what you expect...and then when they fail to maker you happy....even though you were not happy before but you expected all of this to just happen by magic and then you wonder why you are disappointed, upset and angry with them for not fulfilling this fantasy or dream you imagined on your own but never told your spouse...this is what you expect ahead of time to give them the chance to say...."are you nuts? I could never take on the much responsibility and besides.....that's not mine responsibility to begin with? It's yours? How could anyone possibly do all of that for another person when it takes all I've got ( or all you've got ) just to take all of that responsibility that is mine ( or yours ) and do that for myself let alone and do just that much ( bare minimum for yourself first and foremost...which is your responsibilitu to you and others so you do not burden them with what is not there burden in the first place and not there responsibility to you to try and do for you? ) and then erroneously expect or try and take on what is not mine ( or yours ) and actually think you could do that and not fail? Literally taking all of your own responsibility that is actually your's...and then take on all of that of another persons...and then expect not to fail? Like they are a dependent child...not a grown adult with the expectation that a child might have of their parents because they really are dependent on you for all those things since a child cannot do that for themselves? Yet....none of of us children...but somehow, we expect to be treated as adults but fail in this fundamental adult responsibility ( the one's I listed ) and thinking it belongs to our spouses or SO's?

And then we are disappointed when the person we are with does not do that for us..... as if we are still children living under our parents rules and our parents authority because we are incapable of doing all of that for ourselves? And yet...somehow expect to be treated as adults even when we fail miserably..... in doing this for ourselves because we expect someone else to do this for us? And then we wonder why we are unhappy?

A victim...is a person who refuses to take responsibility..... as my T always reminds me every time I walk into his office.

I had a moment today.....when this came to light so clearly it was like seeing things with a completely different set of eye? Something happened ( just another of 100's of situations ) that I sat back and just listened...and didn't say anything until it finally clicked and I saw the light in that moment as my wife started lashing out and chastising me once again over nothing and then immediately started blaming me for it...as if it was my fault? And it was so ridiculous...that I almost fell on the floor laughing my ass off it was so ridiculous? Really? Instead of getting angry....I almost burst out laughing? And that's when I saw the light? And heard my T's words ringing loud and true in my ears?

The dogs got in a tussle over some crumbs of Tortilla chips my wife had given them and put in a bowl on the floor? My wife has this thing about giving the dogs people food which she knows she is not suppose to do ( as if to bribe them into liking her as if they are people? Like dogs will somehow like you if you feed them or cheat and treat them with people food? As it appears to me? Which is actually bad for the dogs...but she can't stop herself from doing it and I have told her that it's not good for them? )

So the dogs got in a tussle over only having one bowl to fight over and spilled the bowl over in this tussle which made my wife angry and she started squirting the water bowl at them like they did something wrong? Then she got up and got the vacuum cleaner and starting sweeping but the last time I had used it...the belt started to Frey since it was old and made of rubber and hadn't been changed in years like it should have? And since I was the last one to use it.....when my wife heard the vibration noise and noticed the vacuum wasn't working as it normally should....she freaks out and starts accusing and blaming me as she said...."ruining her vacuum cleaner"..and as she said.."it was my responsibility since I was the last person to use it and it was working perfectly before I had touched it...and now it is broken." Since it was yesterday when this happened and we are snowed in right now and are house bound for a couple of days until the snow melts which was when I was going to get a new belt for the vacuum...since...that's what someone does....when you get a flat tire on your car or the old rubber belt on a vacuum needs replacing? Which is not a big deal and besides.....when I buy a vacuum belt to replace the old one...I also buy two and keep a spare hooked on the vacuum so when that happens....you have one when you need it?

Everyone knows this...and this is standard practice with vacuums cleaners? And failure to do this by last person who changed it...was a failure in taking reasonability and maintenance measures to ensure a situation like this doesn't happen when it happens? Because everyone who has ever owned a vacuum cleaner knows this and knows this is what you do?

Unless your a victim that is....and a person who refuses to take responsibility...and only gives responsibility to others...an expect them to do that for them?

And I laughed in my wife's faces...and turned around and ignored her and went back to my peaceful calm of knowing....I had done nothing wrong.

I Love This Guy Honestly

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 01/12/2017 - 17:55

I don't want to take away from this thread at all or just throw this in here without at least explaining the reason for doing this? On a personal note however ( this is one of my weird eccentricities here ) I actually love to sit and listen to these people do their thing at conventions of trade shows just because they are so good at doing what they do? I almost never buy anything from them...but I have been known to just stand there memorized by just how well they can do this and how fast they can talk? I guess it's part envy but with appreciation for the craft..as put. LOL

And I think that is the point I wanted to make? I actually turn on televagelist and just listen to how well they can speak with so much enthusiasm and excitement and with such conviction...that I am just drawn into how well they speak....and then compare what they are actually saying and wonder how they get people to believe them? It is truly an Art form of it's own...and I appreciate a talented Artist myself...no matter what they are selling? And some but not all....are as crooked as the day is long so that becomes even more interesting when you watch someone like Jim Baker....telling you that the Visa credit card company is in league with the Devil which I will always remember his rational for that?

As he said.....VI....is the number 6 in Latin. And then S.......is 6 in some other nomenclature....and then A ....is 6 in some other obscure numerating system...therefore....666 is the mark of the beast so Visa cards are the work of the Devil? Meanwhile the entire time...there is a running reader ticker board going on at the bottom of the screen telling you to send money into his Ministry and they accept cash, money orders or credits cards!! LOL!!!!!

And as we all found out....he was sent to prison for fraud? My point is not to discredit anyone or even say I am against any kind of religious practice or believe system at all? It's just to say that when anyone can say anything they want or interpret vague unclear symbolic imagery in prose...and turn into to something real or apply it that way.....then anyone can say anything thing they feel like.since no one can prove them wrong? And they mean it...so sincerely sometimes....that it's hard not to believe them? I am not even saying a person like this is lying or they don't believe themselves....but....I am pretty sure....that Visa cards are NOT subliminal messages being sent from the Devil and actually are the mark of the Beast.... 666?

In my mind.....and considering the source.....if I have to go with my gut instincts...or Jim Baker.....I'm going with my gut on that one.....just making a point here? And I am not implying or inferring that this is related directly to the video or the motives or intentions of the web site or the person speaking which as I said.....I believe the content of what he was saying and agree with him on everything he said as the basis idea of what he was saying. I think he is on the right track...but just a little off base in some of the things he said as in his reasoning and nothing else?

I guess the corollary here that gut feeling is telling me....has to do with the language and the delivery..and some of the logic that is used which is really what makes me skeptical more than anything else? And I actually believe him...despite what I see as kind of a dishonest approach? Not in selling cleaning cloths....but in how to live my life more importantly and taking what is said at face value?

https://youtu.be/QwRISkyV_B8

That's the beautiful part of a relationship J.....

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 01/14/2017 - 17:28

You can leave out the middle man!....The Christ did what he did, and is doing what he is doing just for you, just for me, it's a free gift...(No Sale's man necessary)...When he calls us to be inhabited and lead by his spirit, it is up to us....No one else!....There is nothing left to sale or buy....We submit our will in faith or No...We don't need a TV or Computer for that....A quiet place will work nicely!

Man I need to get me one of those clothes...LOL..

I Kind of Figured That Out a Long Time Ago Too

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 01/15/2017 - 15:35

I just never said anything and kept that to myself? I figured...what's in label anyway right? Same thing applies to ADHD? I think I've just had some examples in my life...of folks who have felt that there is only one way to believe and if you don't...then you aren't a Christian? I mean...literally saying those words saying...."you aren't a Christian if you don't believe exactly the same as me. " Straight to the point?

I think the problem with those examples is....they didn't expect me to say "well I don't??". Now what? LOL What can they say after they already put there foot in it like that...... thinking you'd have no other choice and you'd say yes for sure under those conditions?LOL I do remember a long pause and kind of that "deer in the head lights look when I said that? " LOL "aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh........who want's Pumpkin Pie...we've got whip cream to go on top!!! " LOL

Surprise!!! LOL And I actually did follow Jim Baker just to see what new creative way he could get you to send money to him..... but the Visa card one was the best one of all? With his wife standing there next to him with mascara running down her face!! It just doesn't get any better than that!! LOL

And I wasn't kidding about those pitch guys at trade shows. They are so entertaining to watch and yes....those Samwows actually look pretty good?? LOL

Yep J...Hurting instead of helping!...

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 01/15/2017 - 18:06

Religion (legalism), and Judgments' are some nasty stuff friend!...Jesus warned me away from the poison of it..But, this weak flesh Ive foolishly trusted to often (adversarial mind) is so useless for assigning the righteousness of God, that must be experienced in the only way possible....So even with my best intentions, my ignorance to eternal life shines bright when I'm using my mind, and my deadliest member..My tongue!

Silence is Golden!

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