This topic came up in the Slug Box and I decided to create a new topic. As in many relationships (both ADHD-affected and not), money and finances have caused stress in my relationship. Here are some things I've done to protect myself and my children from what I would call my spouse's financial irresponsibility (checkered employment, doesn't deposit income regularly, pays bills late, is afraid to talk about money) Please feel free to share your techniques and comments.
I set up a checking account solely in my name approximately four years ago. All my income goes into it. My husband has a checking account that I'm joint on. He deposits his income in that account.
I pay almost all the family- and household-related bills from my checking account. I then ask my husband to pay me an amount equal to half the joint expenses (usually once or twice per month).
I have a pension plan through my job.
I contribute to my own IRAs. My husband used to contribute for me, when he had enough income to do so; I appreciate that he did that.
I don't ask my husband to contribute to my personal expenses (food, health care, dental care, clothing, etc.). Similarly, I don't contribute to his.
To Rosered's Finance thread: What I Do to Protect Myself
Submitted by silent scream on
1. I decided not to get married even though he wants to. Major alarm bells started going off about 6 years ago and I realized we could not get legally married (or, rather, I could not), in large part, for financial reasons. And he actually makes a pretty good salary.
2. I encourage him to REstart contributing to his 401K. He and his (now ex) wife stopped contributing before he got divorced----this was about 10 years ago!--- and he never started again. So, as long as I've known him (8 years) he hasn't made any contributions to his 401K. He just got a large tax return back and is saying he will use part of it to restart contributions to his retirement. He is 60 yrs old and does not have a good retirement set up. His plan is just to keep working since he likes his work.
3. *If* we did get married, I really really hate to say this, but I would get a pre-nup. He's already agreed. I don't make much money right now. I took a job I love that gives me huge flexibility to also work with my adult son with autism in my spare time. But I have good investments, I'll be set for retirement in 10 years, my house is paid off, and I'm protecting what I have. And its so sad that I feel I need to do this.
4. "If" we were married, I would encourage and support him to, among other things, pay off his credit cards (not too huge, thank god, but should have been paid off---he actually pays minimal payments and doesn't seem to mind racking up interest. I don't understand this thinking.) and to re-finance his home which is still a little underwater from buying it a few years before the crash. I would also want to encourage a budget for impulse buys, but I think he's reached a point where he knows he must be seriously as frugal as he knows how to be.
5. Like you, I would keep checking accounts separate and we would come up with a way to pay household bills together.
Obviously, most of this would only work if he wanted it. We can't make someone change. At this point, he would welcome the support and "control" to help him out, but I just can't seem to want to take it on. I already have myself and a son with special needs to take care of. :-(
Yes, not getting married is the key
Submitted by Sueann on
If my ADDer and I had just lived together and not gotten married, I'd have kept my alimony from my first marriage to a high earning man. If my ADDer decided to not work, I could have told him to get out of my house.
But Rosered is married to her ADDer. He has hurt her in so many ways. He's done an illegal download from her internet connection that SHE can get in trouble for because they are married. She can be held responsible for many of his bills because they are married. And I have no idea how she can protect herself from that.
PS: Rosered, how is that situation working itself out?
How frustrating! Keeping her
Submitted by silent scream on
How frustrating! Keeping her accounts separate, holding him accountable to paying his share, and not paying for his expenses (assuming he can and will do this) is smart, but, yes, how tragic to be doing all the right financial things for you and your family, but then have to be responsible for your husband's mistakes. I have played this scenario over and over in my head and this is what made me decide I couldn't do it.
Too bad we can't get financial power of attorney! (Just kidding....well, kind of....that would be the ultimate answer, wouldn't it, but they would have to agree to be incapacitated enough to be willing to turn over all financial decisions to their spouse. Would feel dehumanizing, though, so not so good. But it could save the family finances!).
With something like an illegal download, wouldn't the law recognize that just one person was guilty in that situation? I realize if there were a fine involved, though, that both would effectively be paying it. I'd like to know how that worked itself out too and I greatly sympathize with you, Rosered. It is such a feeling of having no control watching someone else who affects (or could affect) your life keep making bad decisions.
Warning: TMI! I have not
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Warning: TMI! I have not received any more communications about the illegal download, so that's a relief. Here is what COULD happen but I hope doesn't: The copyright owner could go after me for copyright infringement. There have been cases in which copyright owners have done so, and what they have done is to name as defendants the people whose names are on the Internet service contract for the particular location where the illegal download occurred. Although my husband and I jointly own our house, only my name appears on the service contract since I changed Internet providers last year. There has been at least one case in which the judge said that because the copyright holder couldn't prove who actually engaged in the illegal downloading (versus identifying the location where it occurred), the copyright holder couldn't continue with its case.
My husband has not been to our house since the day on which the downloading occurred. (He mostly lives with his parents, working as their caregiver.) I haven't decided what I'll request of him the next time he's here. Leave his electronics at the door? Stay at a hotel? I don't know. What really bothers me about this incident and situation is that being divorced is no protection from me being held liable for his misbehavior. I would be on the hook because of owning the Internet service, not because of being married to the offender.
So glad to know there are no consequences yet
Submitted by Sueann on
I think you made the right call to say he can't come into your house. You have to keep yourself and your law license safe. Isn't it sad that we have to protect ourselves against those who should hold us most dear of everyone in the world?
I have done the same thing
Submitted by frustratedwife on
I have done the same thing with my checking accounts. I have my own account which is where my earnings are deposited and bills are paid out of. My husband and I have a joint account where he deposits any money he makes. I also have a savings account that he knows nothing about but it's not much and I don't usually have much left to contribute to it after the bills are paid. Unfortunately, my husband rarely makes any money so what little is deposited usually pays a few of his medical bills and some gas money and then there is nothing left over to contribute to the household expenses. Therefore we are broke all the time and I've lost hope that this is ever going to change.
I look back and wish I would have insisted we keep everything separate and that I would have never allowed him to use any of my money or credit. This was my mistake. I didn't have a lot but what I did have is gone, along with my credit.
Upon dreams. That what I built my financial disaster
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
In 1979, I started a full time job in an accounting department. I had medical benefits, vision, dental, paid vacations, profit sharing, a brand new car, and my own apartment.
In 1982 I met my spouse. He lived at home with his parents. He had borrowed several thousand dollars from his Mom to purchase an old step-van to start his construction business.
LOL - on one occasion, his mother advised him I was dating HIM for HIS money!!!
On our honeymoon, I allowed him to convince me to quit my job: "You deserve a break," he said. "You need to get away from your over-bearing boss," he said. "I want my business to support my family. I do not want to be like some of my buddies who have their own businesses, but their wives actually make the money, and they just have a hobby," he said. "I want to take care of you," he said. I was swept away by the fairy-tale course of events. So, I quit, and started to run the administrative end of his business. With no salary.
LOOKING BACK, I believe he was threatened by my financial success. LOOKING BACK, I believe he needed to be in control of my choices. LOOKING BACK, I was foolish.
Enter all the next years of his 'strong suggestions' surrounding my employment. There was no way to please him - no matter what job I got, it could not compare to how much per-hour he could charge in construction, thus he did feel it was 'unfair' for me to expect him to do any housework, since he made more than me.
I showed him how much money it would cost if he would have to hire someone to run his office and do the business books. I thought he would find value in what I provided for him in my knowledge and business skills. He did not.
I chose to be a stay-at-home Mom. He outwardly agreed, and dissed on Moms who had a job, as they were cheating their children. Yet he also made it clear he thought I was not pulling my weight in our relationship. I would have happily lived within our means provided by his business. He wanted the outside world to see him as a success, thus we always lived beyond our means.
And gathered debt behind us, which grew and grew and grew. We would refinance to adjust our monthly commitments, and then the debt grew, and grew, and grew. Over and over. Now mind you, we by no means had any significant income. No fancy vacations. No fancy cars. No fancy clothes or jewelry. He made 30 - 40 K per year. And the debt mounted. And I made charts and graphs and budgets, and showed how we could live with-in our means. But he could not - or would not - get on board. He worked when he wanted. Could not - or would not - live within any financial agreements we made. He charged supplies and tools and materials for the business - and forgot to mention it, so it was a hair-pulling experience for me to open the mail. He would get big jobs, with the promise of $10,000 in profit. In the end, the materials always were over budget, and the 3 week job, turned into a 3 month job. $10,000, less three months mortgage, and utilities, and bills leaves more debt. Time blindness. He could not - or would not - understand it.
His lost both his parents over a 3 year period. Once their estate was settled in 2007, he inherited close to 1/4 million dollars. 80% went to pay off debt. Which made him angry. for me, it was a relief becasue all we had left was a mortgage. I asked my spouse if he wanted to just take a year off - I could budget for that - which he answered NO. But then basically, took a year off, spending money like he still was working. Being a friend to everyone with his money. The rest got nickled and dimed away. He fired the first financial advisor I found, because the man did not return a phone call. My spouse actually went to wait in the man's driveway, to show him that he could not get away with taking advantage of him. Enter the end of 2007 and the economic downfall. The second financial advisor was planning a way to invest the $80,000 that was left. By the time we went back for our appointment, most of the $$ was spent, and of course it was NOT my spouses fault. He got angry with the financial advisor. By year end, we discovered the estate tax accountant had NOT taken good care of advising us - and we had a choice of either paying $18,000 in taxes - or buying something for the business for $20,000. There went the little nest egg I had set aside.
Last month, we just refinanced again to re-adjust our debt. I am 54 and we now have a new 15 year mortgage. And some other debt.
I look back at all this, and cannot believe I was so blind. Cannot believe what I let my life evolve in to. I cannot believe I was ignorant to how unkind he behaved toward me, which I counteracted by ramping up my desire to be a good wife. I was crazy.
So I am 54, with two adult children, one who got married last fall. I have a very disappointing relationship. If I took all the debt, and subtracted the liquid value of what we have - it would cancel each other out. So, how to divide what we have to go our separate ways? Hmmm? Arggghhh.
Why oh why did I not see this clearly happening, until it was such a big mess. Now, how to untangle it. He is angry. He feels the whole issue is I am punishing him by pulling away all physical affection. And then he crumples up into a big heap of sobbing sadness, and it rips me up inside. I KNOW he has to take responsibility for his own actions. I just do not know what steps to take to change this. I have gone to many counselors, and believe I am following their advice.
And I am saddled with my spouses anger, and his letting me know he does not want to go anywhere with me because he does not want to pretend he is happy anymore. Oh, and, by the way, any time he can let my family know how horrible I have been to him - and won't they be shocked to find out who I really am?!?!?!?!
This is so sad; you lost so
Submitted by LyraHeartstrings on
This is so sad; you lost so much. I come from this same kind of loss and lack (my dad did it to my mom, hubby's doing it to me, my sister's husband...it goes on and on. It seems to be all we know?) I don't know what it is -- a lack of self preservation? Just keep on trying to save someone/something and can't admit or don't believe it's lost for good? I always like to think there's a way out, there's always a way out. But there's no way out when you're still walking IN. You have to turn around to walk out. And sadly, if the hubby doesn't turn with you, he will still be walking in that same direction and you will be following like a lost puppy yourself. That's what I feel like.
Train wrecks and other things
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
LyraHearstrings,
The internal vision I got of myself as a lost puppy was a JOLT. A really GOOD jolt.
My focus in all this, er, um, stuff, has been my marriage. Keep the marriage. Marriage is forever. The promise I made to my spouse, God, my friends and family means a great deal to me. It is not something to just toss out the window.
I do not want to be a lost puppy. I want to be Leader of the Pack :)
I have tried every possible way imaginable to paint a picture my spouse can visualize of the train wreck we are traveling towards at hastening speed. I keep pulling myself over to a different track, that goes off into the sunset, yet I realize somehow I am always yanked back onto the track of disaster.
Do i think I am perfect? No I do not. I have lots of new stuff to learn every day. Let me tell you, from my own experience in marriage counseling, there is no Dr. Phill or Oprah Winfrey magic endings. I was hoping some one would help me and my husband see how his denial is causing turmoil in the process to turning our marriage around. I do not expect anyone to say, "Oh cannot you see how hard this is on your wife?" I myself am saddened by the fact that my spouse crumples up into a sobbing heap of pain, and I am also so very disappointed that our counselors are not able to steer our work into a place that does not allow that manipulation of the situation. I am surely at a loss.
I know if I was in a situation with a drug addict or an alcoholic, a counselor would certainly point out those problems. If you cannot name it, you cannot fix it.
I do not want to see my spouse pushed over the edge, but there has to be a way to get him to see the mistakes he makes, rather than getting wrapped up in his quick skill in spinning the tables around so he is the sad victim who is so misunderstood and tries so hard.
That's where we are "at" at
Submitted by LyraHeartstrings on
That's where we are "at" at the moment, I think. I know he sees himself as useless and a loser etc. and he does pull the victim thing a lot. He hates being blamed for things i.e. "everything" in his mind. He can not just take on something and get it done or fix it when it doesn't get done. He has to shout about how we're all "going after him" and how it's "not his fault" and we all blame him. He goes off into extremes. Mainly there are no tears, just heaps of rage and anger and lashing out at me. He has raised his voice to his parents but thing is I get the brunt of it all. And again it comes back to ME not doing X enough or doing Y too much. I seem to be controlling him (and everyone else controls him, too?). He has also said he's tried really hard etc.
I don't even know if he knows it's manipulative and victimizing and self pitying. He does not seem to pity me or our daughter etc. but himself. He says he feels bad for us but I don't trust that he means that. I think I'd feel sorry for myself in his position as well, but at some point don't you want to have a loving family?
I feel sad reading about
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I feel sad reading about other people's experiences with the effect on their finances of having a partner with ADHD. Certainly, there are no guarantees in life. But that so many of us must live with financial infidelity, financial neglect, or financial abuse CAUSED by our partners is a different thing. Even with the protective measures I've been fortunate enough to have been able to institute, I consider my husband's knowing neglect in the realm of money matters to be a continuing assault on the core of our relationship.
Looking out for #1
Submitted by jennalemon on
That was said very well. That is where we are at too. Dh took half his small IRA out this past year to pay off his business debts, while I was paying the lion's share of the bills and not able to put money away for our retirement - we are in our 60's. When he received a very small inheritance 15 years ago, he "took some months off of work because he deserved some time to himself." He "paid" himself with his inheritance. It is all gone. It is like using the family life raft for himself before looking to see what the situation is for the family. Financial infidelity..... I am glad I have a word for it.
Husband has so many debts
Submitted by Mapper (not verified) on
My husband is 46 and still has $10,000 in student loans to pay off, $5000 in loans he borrowed from work, $550/month child support for another 1 1/2 years, 2 credit cards and $350/month motorcycle payment that he SHOULD be paying but since I was so nice to take the loan out in my name because there was no way they'd approve him (after he told me he'd make ALL the payments) I pay that off almost every month.
Last night his buddy sent him a message saying he's seriously considering selling his 18' toy hauler and is asking $8500 for it. He actually considered buying it! With what? MY money? He keeps saying how he wants a nice RV to take to the track and go camping in rather than his 12' trailer. I work for a travel company and one of the perks is that we can take one of the European tours for free except for airfare and spouses can do the same but for an extra $100 a day. Well even a 7 day trip would cost $2500 in airfare alone for the both of us and then tack on another $700 for him/day and another $500-$800 for some meals and souvenirs and that's pushing $4000. There's no way we can afford that at the rate he works (or doesn't work) but he thinks we'll have no problem going on one of these.