Futility? | ADHD and Marriage

Mirror Image....

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 05/19/2017 - 01:47

You sound like you are in the exact situation that I am...I know for sure that all the thoughts running around in your head (listed here and those not listed) are the same things I've pondered for 9 years...I would love to be in a support group w/ others like yourself....It would be amazing what we could learn for each other's experiences....

I will just say this....First with out my spiritual reality, there is no way I would probably still be here...If happiness in this life (a healthy loving attachment that..How did you say it??...Showed up daily) was my number one goal, I'm sure I would be somewhere else....

You say learning has helped...I agree! but, it doesn't feel the emptiness, nor does it change the reality of living w/ her....But it helps me to understand what I'm experiencing and seeing in many of her behaviors...Things I'm sure you already know....It's easy for you and I to feel abandoned when their distraction and hyper focus is the real reason, for their non-participation. It's not their lack of Love for us....But, like you said, (and i will add to it) The feeling of Love isn't enough...Love is a Verb!...It takes putting legs on it, for it to manifest in the relationship....

The hardest part to me over the years has been trying to separate out what is personality and intentional (changeable)....And what is (fixed) in the mind (unintentional)....But to be honest...That should be the question the ADHD spouse should be asking themselves...I see many adhd minded people who are aware, and manage their lives to that end...

Best wishes ArtGamer!

Golden rule: ADHD is not an excuse

Submitted by smd1409 on Fri, 05/19/2017 - 03:10

I'll say it again: ADHD is not an excuse. It's the circumstances someone finds themselves in. Just like you do. And what happens when we come across circumstances? We overcome them. To have ADHD simply means that the conventional methods used by everyone cannot be used to overcome their own obstacles and so they need to use a less conventional path. I have ADHD myself and I've experienced what is and isn't possible. Others may differ from me in severity and in symptoms, but it does not mean they cannot overcome anything whatsoever. If it was that bad you would have known how untrustworthy they were long before you married them.

Your wife is not allowed to not show love to you. She is not allowed to always be late. She is not allowed to be unstable. She is not allowed to fail without attempts to correct it. However, she is allowed to express love in a way she is comfortable with. She is allowed to be flexible with her time so that she is never late. She is allowed to have her own space if she becomes emotionally unstable.

I'll give you some examples of what people go through to show you what I mean.

She struggles to show love for you? People with ADHD are often very creative and are great at focusing when things become fun. So make it that way. For example you could everyday give her or name a random object, ask her how its reminds her of her love for you (not in an interrogative way). If she's like me she'll find a way. Do this regularly enough and eventually this will become habit for her. At first you may have to say table and she will think to herself 'we eat here together and talk about really fun things'. Do this long enough then eventually she will randomly look at items and will instantly shout out "Wow! It's a bird!". You might think to yourself "What? Where did that come from?" and she'll tell you that she feels like she can fly when she's with you. You create the habit, she creates the words.

She's always late for things? So am I. What did I do? Use a fidget spinner. Easy as. Didn't need to be hard for me. Solutions don't always need to be hard. Solutions don't always need to be hard for her either :p

What about if she gets distracted over the smallest thing? There was this one woman's story explained in ADD friendly strategies (a self-help book). She struggled to choose what clothes to wear everyday so she simply colour coded it. Black for winter. That way everything matches so she didn't need to care about what matches to begin with.

It's not enough to understand her ADHD, it's also necessary to find out what helps counter the negatives of ADHD as well as what helps nourish the positives of ADHD and take advantage of it.

Hi smd1409...

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 05/19/2017 - 11:14

Nice post and very helpful comments, if the adhd party is aware (not in denial) and able to communicate calmly (the non-adhd party also, for that matter). When most any type attempt to discuss real life situations, produces defensiveness right off the bat....Many of us, based on the repetitive conflict, eventually just turn to setting boundaries to protect ourselves from being dragged into situations that are not of our own making...Boundaries can protect both parties until we can come to the place you seem to have been able to come to w/ your own mind...Which, will always play out in a positive way in our relationships...

I love the fact you are so aware, and so able to see things with such clarity. You have an encouraging style of writing and sharing!

Blessings

Thank you ArtGamer for

Submitted by LRHG on Fri, 05/19/2017 - 08:24

Thank you ArtGamer for articulating the importance of stability and its effects so well. I am finally leaving my relationship after 7 years due to this as well as chronic infidelity. My partner lost his well paying job almost a year ago. He has not been earnestly looking for work and now tells me he plans to just do some odd jobs that will pay him $30,000 / year. Will he earn $30,000 a year ? There is no reason to think so, he just 'assumes' he will. I need the stability of knowing we can pay the bills, that we can go out for lunch now and then, maybe even take a trip. I have been very good with my money and want to be able to enjoy it. This is but one example. My partner however has given me a gift, an out. He has finally admitted he doesn't think he can change and we have agreed it would be best for us to live apart. I know, that way, I can have all the compassion in the world since his actions won't affect me. I am still so sad over it all though - a connection I wanted so bad never happened.

Good points

Submitted by ArtGamer on Fri, 05/19/2017 - 16:39

@ c ur self --

Thanks. Knowing that others have similar experiences does help, not because I'm looking for brothers in battle, but because I hope to learn from others and not make avoidable mistakes. It also helps to know that I'm not crazy :D

@ smd1409 --

Indeed. I would not have married her if she didn't show up before we were married. And I would not have married her if she didn't have plenty of good traits. I have shared some great times with my wife and would not still be here after 20 years if it had been like this all the time.

Without knowing exactly why, over the years I adapted healthy ways for us to live with ADHD. I now recognize that most of the our most difficult times were when her ADHD flared, but it usually only lasted a few months at most. It made things difficult but the condition retreated to "normal levels" before the stress was overwhelming. It was even somewhat predictable when those times would occur, so I was able to plan accordingly. However, last August it switched on and hasn't gone away.

I have always told her how much I appreciate her, even in these rough spells. I remind her of how proud I am of her accomplishments, noteworthy things for anyone whether they have ADHD or not. But when the ADHD overwhelms her, nothing I say or do gets through. She becomes desperate to prove herself, which makes things worse, which creates a self-fulfilling spiral of her own failure, self-admonishment, and misery. It's like trying to run a marathon with a broken leg, you just can't do the same things when suffering from a health episode.

When she was a child she had ADHD behavioral training. She has used that the entire time I've know her, but when these extra strong cycles emerge those same strategies don't help. And nothing is going to help if she already feels defeated by the condition, so she needs help with that as well.

Mental health support in our country is deplorable. The hoops we had to jump through to get her to an adult ADHD specialist earlier this month were insane. We are trying to get appointments for counseling but that is proving even more difficult. Hopefully the insurance will approve it and we can get her more help.

@ LRHG --

I don't want to be forced into making the same decision, but I may also have no choice. Staying or leaving hurts us either way. However, sometimes with leaving we have possibilities in our futures that we would not have with staying, and that makes it the better choice. Just the opportunity for stability, which provides the opportunities for happiness, is a future to look forward to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that anyone leave their ADHD spouse, just that there is no point staying where you are if you are a miserable and there is no hope for improvement. We can all love people that are not good for us, so it isn't about love failing but just being mismatched for one another.

@ everyone, now my general observation for the day

Last night I was going out to do shopping. As I was leaving she burst into action, making stuffed peppers that she previously announced she was going to make a week ago. I said OK, that is nice, we both love stuffed peppers. But I was sort of stunned into watching her for a moment because of the uncharacteristic franticness of her activity. As I was standing there, I looked down at the counter, realized that the meat had been defrosted for weeks. expired, and was unsafe. None of my options were good.

I could let her spend hours making the meal with spoiled meat, hoping she didn't eat any while I was out, then throw it away when I returned home.
I could interrupt her, point out the meat was bad, throw the meat away, foiling her attempt to do something.

Neither solution would be good for her now low self-esteem. In her mind, she failed again. All I could do was give her the option. She chose, I threw out the meat, then reassured her that everything was OK and it was only a few dollars of ingredients. She could make stuffed peppers another time. Eventually I convinced her that engaging in complex activities that evening involving ovens and knives might not be good (she has uncharacteristically burned herself cooking several in the last few months) and she settled down on the couch to play solitaire on her computer for several hours.

Needless to say, after this caretaking and intervention I no longer had the energy or time to go shopping.

If I had followed the advice in the books, I would have left anyway because that was my plan and what was best for me at that moment. I would have done what was needed for my personal goals and happiness. But I would have come home and eaten stuffed peppers made with spoiled meat because I would have not known the meat was spoiled, gotten sick, and that would have been worse. So in these situations there is no right answer, only a series of wrong or less-wrong answers.

I disagree that it is always the non-ADHD spouse that sets up the parent / child dynamic. When things get to this level, there is no amount of positive feedback or support I can give that balances her own feelings of diminished self-worth, although I still keep trying. There is no way for me to leave her to her own devices because if I do not help, bad things happen. If I do help, the bad things happen far less frequently but I become a caretaker. There is no simple answer to this.

mirror image....

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 05/19/2017 - 17:23

(I looked down at the counter, realized that the meat had been defrosted for weeks. expired, and was unsafe.)

Can anyone tell me what this is?? What causes this?? Is this ADHD??

I've been wondering for 9 years...She will eat stuff I would not touch...Trying to be concerned about not hurting her self esteem, and also wanting to affirm her (her love language) is difficult in these situations, like the one you listed above...Like you posted, there is no good option....

Wow, I had no idea others

Submitted by ArtGamer on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 00:35

Wow, I had no idea others experienced this!

I think it might be a combination of "time blindness," distraction, and their difficultly processing details like the expiration date on the package.

The "time blindness" means everything is either "now" or "not now." When she defrosted the meat 8 days ago, it was "now." Then she got distracted and forgot about it. I mentioned I was going to the store, which reminded her of the meal she intended to make several days ago. That became "now" again and she picked up where she left off, even though several days had passed and the meat was unsafe. She didn't perceive that several days passed and didn't think that the meat might have gone bad, let alone that the expiration date would need to be rechecked.

I've messaged her in our own house while she is using the phone or computer in another room. I hear the noise when she receives the message. Up to 7 hours may pass before she replies, even though she is still using the device. She is so distracted that even a notification or alarm will not get her attention. Then she doesn't notice that hours have passed since the message and I may not even still be online.

In tonight's episode, another

Submitted by ArtGamer on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 00:21

In tonight's episode, another exercise in futility.

I cannot figure out any way to verbally interact with her in a constructive, functional, rational way. The only words she will accept from me are as her personal rah-rah-rah pep squad cheerleader, and even then she will usually start arguing. Encouraging reminders in emails, texts, phone calls do not help. Reasonable attempts on my behalf to lead a healthy lifestyle are interrupted and sabotaged. Every other conversation results in her blurting out hurtful, irrational, untrue things. I understand that this is probably a defense mechanism, but she has no reason to defend herself against me. In the face of this confrontation and instability I keep trying to remind myself that she is confused and scared, but so far no amount of understanding prevents her behavior and words from eventually affecting me.

It seems we cannot have any real conversations at all. I can't even tell her what I'm planning for the day, hour, or minute because she sabotages it. All I can do is say supportive things to her and hope she hears them.

It appears I now need even more excessive boundaries to prevent her interference. Basically, I currently cannot engage her because it is pointless. If I fully let go of everything we had in our relationship and just stick around to keep her safe until she can regain balance, she won't be able to upset and disrupt me as much. But at this point I see no way to keep any "candle burning." We can't even be friends. I have to treat her with compassion, but not as the partner and friend she once was.

I'm stubborn. I'm not perfect and she stood by me when I experienced health problems. My own sense of fair play will not let me leave until I know she is more functional again and there is no other answer.

Any suggestions? Any recommendations to make this journey easier? Any techniques or ways to think about this that will help me emotionally buffer myself and regain some personal stability?

when we see ourselves ...ArtGamer..

Submitted by Zapp10 on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 07:52

in another's words it brings a mix of emotions. What your post says so resonates with me. I, too am searching for the same thing....CONSTANTLY!.... some days.

We will be married for 44 years soon......the last several years has been a journey into .....WTH ?

I am weary of circling the wagons to protect myself from the effects of chaos in daily living.

I fear that I have known what the end will be for some time now. It is being kind of forced to make a decision you don't want to make.....in order to save yourself.

My struggle with compassion for my H is ever present and wears me down more, sometimes, than the adhd\ lack of emotion issues. He is truly good with how things are and doesn't see what the problem is. I am very sure that he will be fine on his own....as I will be.....so here I am...having to once more....make a decision for the BOTH of us.....oh my....I think I just realized something about me! Need to take a moment to think about it.

Your words so captured my heart today....thank you.

You're really only making a

Submitted by vabeachgal on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 08:42

You're really only making a decision for yourself. Your response really made me think.

I do see that Vabeachgal....

Submitted by Zapp10 on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 09:03

You are correct in that, I agree. My realization was that I was hoping that an agreement that going our separate ways could be agreed upon mutually......like THAT was going to happen? The lack of mutual agreement has not happened much before.....why would I think it would in this scenario? Not wanting to " hurt" my H's feelings has been a part of me for a life time. His reaction I know now is his emotional immaturity that I never saw. Which makes me wonder WTH was off with me? Water over the dam. Perhaps I am making the right decision...perhaps not......I will handle it with love and compassion....I am determined to do it in a way that sits well with ME....even though it may not for him. Sometimes.....love packs up and does a better work from a distance.

That's exactly what I was

Submitted by vabeachgal on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 14:42

That's exactly what I was thinking as I typed my response. Many of us seem to think about the other person in these situations, even when that other person has never shown the ability to keep another person in mind or consider the effects on the spouse, marriage, future or family. That doesn't make us defective human beings, just compassionate ones. I've also been spending a lot of time in WTH mode, looking back over the way I've handled things. There is a bit of WTH is off with me. I'll own those things. I know what they are now. A good part of it is also that a normal reaction doesn't always work in an ADHD and non relationships so we end up second guessing ourselves and wondering WTH is wrong with us when... in the real world... what we've done and said and thought... might have been perfectly normal and appropriate under different circumstances but not with an ADHD individual. Did any of us, way back when, understand that we needed a whole new language and method of communication to maybe make this all work? And then maybe it still won't? Has my H agonized about how his decisions and actions have affected me both practically and emotionally? Doubtful. The self awareness isn't there. That's not a derogatory statement, mostly factual. He kinda doesn't see me. Have I agonized? Absolutely.

Choices... while I was pondering my choices I chanced upon a Ted talk given by a philosophy professor at Rutgers. The reason I paused was that I said, wow, I know that woman... went to high school with her... we were good friends then.... hehe .. wow, I'm old now.... omg..

Anyway, the topic of her talk was the reason why difficult decisions are so difficult. If there isn't a preponderance of evidence pointing out why one choice is obviously heads and shoulders better than the other, we have trouble. (have kids now or not? Take the job on the east coast or the west coast?)

It doesn't matter. The premise of her argument is that it doesn't matter. Make a choice and put your full effort behind your choice. Period. I haven't managed to successfully make this work but I'm still trying.

I've spent the last year paying attention to H's actions and not words. It's been enlightening in a not altogether pleasant way. He throws around a lot of words and good intentions. My conclusion is that most of his effort is based on the need to eliminate or diminish negative feelings, mostly about himself. Lies? Better than the truth that he screwed up because that is an unpleasant feeing. Hiding debt? Of course, a real discussion about money and goals is unpleasant. There is a blog on this site about incautious optimism. There is real scholarly research behind it. "everything is fine" "it's okay" "no problems, nothing to see here"

It's all about avoiding negative feelings. It creates an immature demeanor also, I think. Problem is... the longer this coping mechanism remains in effect and the more often those thoughts become troublesome. If those thoughts occur often enough, the individual may cross the line into an actual disorder. I digress and I'm not a trained psychologist. But... I've often wondered about the chicken/egg argument. ADHD and co morbid condition at the outset or ADHD and co morbid condition sets in because of bad coping mechanisms, making the ADHD seem worse than it initially was?

I guess what I'm saying is that you may not have missed as much as you think. Your H has had 44 years to fully hone and develop those coping mechanisms which you are now seeing as emotional maturity... that you think you missed. Did he/my H develop these bad coping mechanisms because you or I were enabling? Maybe. Consider also that your H may have known very well that you would pick up the slack and took advantage. My H likes being the happy go lucky positive guy and that is not consistent with responsibility in the trenches. I don't see that topic discussed much here. My H has actually said on way more than one occasion that he didn't do something or other or didn't pitch in VERY deliberately. He deliberately lied about working and went "somewhere" to avoid onerous tasks or responsibilities. He made some very deliberate choices to not be a partner; it wasn't all ADHD. And, of course, that is the highest order of b.s. and bad husbandry.

This: "My conclusion is that

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 16:13

This: "My conclusion is that most of his effort is based on the need to eliminate or diminish negative feelings, mostly about himself." I strongly believe this about my ex, as well. In contrast, I'm the type of person who is willing to engage with my negative feelings, not because I enjoy it but because I think it's my duty. I recall a few conversations with my ex, while we were still married, about finances, and his admission that he avoided dealing with financial issues because the issues were unpleasant to think about. My response was that dealing with financial issues was painful for me, too, but I did it because someone has to, and his refusal to work with me on the financial issues both made the financial issues worse and also burdened me, by giving me more of the work. Work that, we both agreed, he was better at. He understands investments; he's better at math; etc.

The amazing mirror image...vabeachgal

Submitted by Zapp10 on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 08:28

This post of yours articulates my thoughts so much better than I have been able to do.....thank you.

I find myself wondering, as my years are less than those of youth, that my physical and mental capabilities are sadly not able to sustain and adeptly maneuver the chaos that has been present but not seen? Then I also wonder, HOW does one live apart yet together in a marriage? Is there a new definition that grays the meaning and intent of what such a union is? Are we a fine uplifting example of a marriage behind closed doors or only in the public arena? I have posed these questions to my H......which causes him great frustration.

Interestingly, we had a brief exchange last night that confused me a bit......until I realized... as much as H has read and learned about ADHD and says he has been working on it.......He is still just trying harder and there is so very much more he doesn't get. It has been 5 years......I am upset with myself for allowing him to waste my days.

I resolved for myself that the end of June will be a decision making change one way or another. Because we are at a stage in our life that we can do what we want I am taking the month of June off from any and all commitments in order to clearly sort this through. I want uninterrupted TIME. I invited him to join me...or not. He made a point to tell me that his commitments were rather important and he didn't see why he couldn't do both. I replied no deal....my doings are just as important but not more than the marriage. We are either both full in or out of this venture.....I will accept either way.........this should be interesting..

We just don't want it anymore

Submitted by vabeachgal on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 10:38

Zapp:

Maybe. I'm not exactly experiencing the first blush of youth right now. I don't think it's all a question of capability. I know I can't handle all of the chaos as well as I used to because I'm not young anymore, but mostly because it's made me tired. More importantly, I don't want to handle it anymore. I've finally come to the conclusion that I deserve peace and stability versus reacting to someone else's actions. I guess I've decided that someone else doesn't have the right to chart my course. These are hard things to come to. It's taken 2 1/2 years. The first year of that time period was spend just getting over the shock of my H's actions and rebounding from the resulting depression. My H thought all that was needed was for time to pass but he didn't consider that I might use the time for self reflection and analysis. My husband isn't evil. Most people consider him a nice guy. The damage he causes is not immediately evident and it's the kind of stuff you don't spread around because it would be character assassination. I don't really want to divorce but I also don't want to wake up in the middle of the night feeling like I'm having a heart attack from all of the stress and anxiety either. I don't want to feel lonely anymore. I don't feel like anything will ever change and the risks are so, so great if I remain.

Like your H, my H is "trying harder" but he thinks it's only a focus problem and if he "tries harder" to listen then that is all there is to do. He ISN'T trying harder to learn about ADHD or engage anyone who can help him. He isn't willing to do that work. I know that there are reasons for that and I also know I can't make it happen for him. This topic is discussed exhaustively on the forum so I won't go into it.

I see it as a continuum. My H is 7 years younger than I am. As we go through life, we change and hopefully gain wisdom. We gather skills, confidence and experience in our roles as parents, family members, employees and community participants. Dr. Barkley has proposed a 30% rule - that folks with ADHD are 30% less emotionally mature than their same age peers. So, while my H and I have gone through life together (15 years together, 12 married), we are facing a great Arctic ice chasm. The gap is so big now. So, to your point, I don't think you missed all the immaturity earlier, I think you're seeing it now because of the passage of time. If you had stayed the same also, it might not be noticeable. I often hear my H express exasperation and tell me that I have no right to expect him to change. But, we do. We all change and grow as we go through life. LOL. I guess that's why women find older men attractive - they have a sheen of self assurance and confidence, not immaturity.

My children are now 19 and 22. They are catching up to my husband. They will surpass his emotional maturity and self awareness very soon. I'm not saying that to be mean. It's more "it is what it is." They question and seek information - they want to know how things impact them - how does health care work? - how this, how that? My H never asks the questions to seeks the information and hasn't done so since age 17, probably.

Good luck on your journey to a decision. Going away by myself for a long weekend to think things through was one of the best things I've done in a long time. This forum has also helped a lot. I've gained a lot of insight from a lot of people, even when I don't agree. I've taken things people have said, copied it into a journal and tossed things around in my mind.... found hard research to back up or debunk claims.... literally hundreds of pages at this point. It's been very cathartic and calming. I'm stuck on the apart but together in a marriage. It's not something I want. I want the real deal and I no longer feel ashamed or "less than" (not compassionate enough, patient enough, yadda yadda) to say it. Some of those traits are what got me in this predicament to begin with. I visited my daughter for a week. Complete change of scenery. When I returned, I had a moment where I thought, Wow, this is how my brain feels when it's not overtaxed by someone else's issues. It was wonderful. (lasted 2 weeks. uggh)

Both you and Zapp have

Submitted by ArtGamer on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 16:02

Both you and Zapp have expressed a lot of how I feel. Our marriage has exhausted me. Each day I wake feeling as though an alien abducted me in my sleep and sucked all of my emotional energy dry. I'm not depressed, I'm just emotionally exhausted.

Last week I calculated the time. In the "normal," better than this years, she has ADHD flares for a minimum of 3 months of each year (only I didn't know it was ADHD). But we never made it more than 3 years at a time with things even that stable, there has always been at least a year or 2 between each of those that is the opposite. So at a minimum, we have a 4 year cycle: 1 year dominated by overwhelming ADHD 3/4 of the time, 3 years with overwhelming ADHD only 1/4 of the time. That means that at least 1.5 years out of every 4 in our marriage and my life has been consumed with this. And that doesn't include the lasting "real world" effects on our lives.

No wonder we're all emotionally exhausted from this. It isn't about not enough love, it's about too much stress and instability. And that takes a toll.

If I could do it without destroying my life, I would separate very soon. But getting rid of my stuff in a yard sale and moving into a one bedroom apartment won't work for me. It's going to take a while for me to prepare so that I can separate responsibly and in the least destructive way for both of us. I don't want to figuratively "burn it all down" as I leave. I'm proud of what she has accomplished for herself in life, like finally getting her career straight and succeeding, She can have the house, she picked it out. I simply need to secure enough money so that I can "make a down payment" on a new life for myself.

Cycle

Submitted by vabeachgal on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 18:14

I see the same sort of cycle in the same kind of time frames you describe. I wonder what that is all about or if it hints at another diagnosis entirely. What I see is a period of relative normalcy (adhd symptoms I can overlook and handle), then cycles of depression and full on adhd neither of which are easy to handle. The normal periods never correspond to times when I need support. When I need support, I now know ahead of time that it will spark depression or full on ADHD. After this many years, I'm prepared for it. Sort of, as much as I can be. At least I'm not shocked and surprised, just resigned. I'll have to consider what order the cycles come in.

If I may say so, I'm actually shocked by your description that the behavior is so out of control that you have to monitor and take care of yourself in the wee hours of the morning. Does she usually crash after this? Right now my H hasn't taken his Wellbutrin for a few days (can't keep up with a prescription) and is self medicating with beer and herbal supplements, which he changes all the time. He's very irritable and snappish right now. It says a lot that I am prepared to complete college financial planning tonight, after working all day, versus being in the same room. I hate taxes and financial aid processing.

Anyway, funny that you mentioned the cycling, because I see another cycle beginning here. Usually brings total financial chaos which in the past have created some very serious real world effects. I calculated yesterday that with his frivolous spending and minimum debt payments, he is consuming 20% of the family take home income by himself, for things of no value. Crazy, but I digress.

You got me thinking further

Submitted by ArtGamer on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 22:19

You got me thinking more about these cycles. What triggers them?

Work used to, but she's had good and stable jobs now for years so that has far less effect than it used to.

Health issues, of course. But she's made it through a lot of stuff without her flaring in the last few years, including surgeries. Of course, that can't be ruled out.

But her family seems to be a winner.

For my own sanity, I've been keeping journals for many years. I just went back through years of it, specifically looking for answers to these cycles. It is clear that her family one of the primary triggers for her ADHD flares. Exposure = ADHD. More frequent exposure = longer, worse ADHD. She doesn't even have to be fighting with them, just exposure seems to do it. And doesn't appear to be all of them, just most of them. All these years I've known there have been issues, I've known that they often destabilize her emotionally, but I thought it was just something to suffer through.

Seriously, when we were younger there are times she would come back from visiting her family and it was like a completely different person walked through the door. It would take days for her to return to the person I knew. Even a recently as 8 years ago, her parents would call regularly and gang up her on the phone, bringing her to tears. The effects of that would last days. Those phone calls only stopped after her father died.

But over the last year she has gotten more and more involved with her family again. Lots more FaceBook, phone calls, visits. And she feels guilty she can't do more. Some of the family things have been extra strange, like going to an in-law's in-law's retirement party that she doesn't even like and getting involved in shopping parties when we live 4 hours away from them.

And it's definitely her family that has made every April an ADHD flare. Easter, multiple birthdays, death anniversaries, someone got their first haircut, whatever. Even if she didn't have a job and lived next door to them, she could never do enough for them in the month of April.

The one April in the last decade that she didn't flare was the only April that she didn't visit them.

But this is pretty insurmountable. If family interactions are really a major cause, the only way to improve things is limiting and structuring her family time. I certainly can't do that and I don't even want to be involved in that process. Can you imagine that? "No sweetie, you can't spend a week with your mother because she triggers your ADHD events. But you can visit her for lunch and an afternoon out in public, that doesn't have the same long-term effect." There is no way ever I'm saying that or taking on that role. She would have to do that herself, and well, we all know that phrase about Hell freezing over...

This is really disturbing to

Submitted by Hopeful Heart on Wed, 05/24/2017 - 19:27

This is really disturbing to me. Why does she want to visit her family if they are emotionally abusive and send her into such a tail spin? Does she not realize what is happening? Has she pushed the pain down so deep inside that she's in denial?

I have experience with all of this. My family emotionally abused me for 45 years. For 13 of those years I refused to visit them without my husband because they treated me much better when he was around. Eventually I had to cut off contact with them completely.

I understand your not wanting to get involved. However, if she's being emotionally abused, she needs an advocate.

I realize that you're not looking for help for HER. However, it seems that her family is having a huge impact on YOU and YOUR marriage.

My heart breaks for both of you.

Thank you, Hopeful Heart.

Submitted by ArtGamer on Wed, 05/24/2017 - 22:45

Thank you, Hopeful Heart.

In-laws are tricky for many, that's why there are so many jokes going back so many centuries :-)

Even without ADHD, few people ever want to admit that their loved ones are horrible little trolls. We all want that fantasy that our families and friends love us and treat us well. Way too many of us put blinders on about our nasty little family secrets, and we get angry when that denial is challenged. Worse, that denial sets up a cycle of abuse as we keep trying to get the affirmation, approval, and love those unpleasant people are never going to give us. On some level I've been guilty of it and so have most of the people I know. Even just hanging out with that friend who never really treats anyone nicely is a form of that. Why do we put up with the insults, criticisms, and abuse? Because somewhere in us, we are seeking approval, and if we can get approval from a complete horse's arse then it really means something, they really love us after all.

I've been her advocate many times. I have confronted her family on many occasions about their behavior. A few times it even helped, but even when it didn't my wife felt stronger because she knew I had her back. Most of the time she still does know that. Except when the ADHD flares, then she forgets I'm in her corner, she forgets her own life's lessons. Somewhere in there she still knows these things, but she can't seem to do anything with that information and falls back to familial approval seeking.

I can't make her do anything. All I can do it talk to her again, which I've done many times over the years. And it has helped, she has made a lot of progress, and most of the time she no longer puts herself out there to be hurt by people who have proven themselves untrustworthy. But right now I have correlation and not causation. Do they trigger the ADHD or does her ADHD trigger her visiting them more often? I'm going to have to pay close attention the next time it is happening to know for sure.

I can try to convince her of what I have observed, but in the end it is still her choice whether or not she puts herself back into that cycle.

However, just as it is her choice to either protect herself or put herself in harms way, I also have that choice. If I discover there is no reasonable doubt that her family are a major trigger for her ADHD and she is unable to break the cycle, then I will choose to remove myself from the situation.

My ex-husband lives with his

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 05/25/2017 - 09:34

My ex-husband lives with his parents, both 91 years old. His mom has Alzheimer's disease; his dad has many health problems but not dementia. His dad is emotionally abusive and has been for many years. My ex willingly put himself into the situation of being his parents' caregiver, with the encouragement of mental health professionals to whom, I assume, he lied (or at least omitted relevant details) about his father. My ex's dad is mean and deceptive. Everyone in the family is aware at some level of the dad's bad behavior but the other siblings live far away and for the most part do not visit. I have offered my ex help in getting out of the situation many times (including last night) but I'm not holding my breath that my ex will respond to me. I have talked to one of his siblings on several occasions over the years but I think they believe that I'm the bad guy so I feel as though I have little influence or credibility with them.

It sounds like you are better

Submitted by ArtGamer on Thu, 05/25/2017 - 17:55

It sounds like you are better off without those people in your life.

As I've learned more about ADHD in the last few weeks, my wife also told me that both her father and her brother were professionally diagnosed with ADHD a long time ago. It does better explain some of the insane, bizarre, and extremely unpleasant experiences I had with them, but understanding doesn't change the outcome of their behaviors. Her father refused to accept his diagnosis, both to his and his family's detriment. He had additional health problems, including diabetes, and his belligerence to taking meds, following doctors advice, changing lifestyle, etc. all contributed to his early demise.

Her brother is passing along this dysfunctional reaction to the condition. Not only has he refused to address his ADHD, he has kids that have been diagnosed and are having problems in school. But against tons of advice,he and his wife refuse to do anything because they don't want the kids to be "labeled."

But my wife certainly doesn't have a monopoly on family dysfunction. I have learned to stay away from the nasty and destructive people in my own family as well, and things are so much better for it.

I realized at some point

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 22:55

I realized at some point while I was still married that H's goal seemed to be to prove to me that he could not be relied on. I would read here about respecting the limits and capabilities of people with ADHD or other disorders (e.g., depression) and I'd lower my expectations. And then he'd lower his performance. So, he got his way. I accepted that I shouldn't rely on him for anything. Sad way for a person to live his life but it seemed to be what he wanted.

PoisonIvy, Often it seems we

Submitted by jennalemone on Tue, 05/23/2017 - 08:06

PoisonIvy, Often it seems we were/are married to the same guy.

"I'd lower my expectations. And then he'd lower his performance. So, he got his way. I accepted that I shouldn't rely on him for anything. Sad way for a person to live his life but it seemed to be what he wanted."

Yes, for me, letting H be and just watching and listening without helping him or trying to do things WITH him....is showing me who he is. I just need to accept reality. He is someone who does not want to partner with anyone....just be independent and he operates through (verbal and emotional) revenge - not just with me but with anyone...just looking out for #1, himself.

Does he love me?

Submitted by Sadhopedespair on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 17:31

"That my physical and mental capabilities are sadly not able to sustain and adeptly maneuver the chaos that has been present but not seen?"

oh how I agree with that statement! And the part about wasting your days. It's so unfortunate. My husband is being told he doesn't have full blown ADHD from a psychologist, but I disagree. I know he has impulsivity and distractibility as well.

As difficult as it is, I've decided to save "me" both mentally and physically. After years of exposure I've paid for it with stress, often feeling overwhelmed, suicidal, incompetent, not good enough. An excellent book that should really help you figure it out is "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay." It helps you pull yourself out of ambivalence.

The post from the ADHD husband whose wife left, and the spouses on this post insist that if your partner makes treatment a priority. Is willing to put sustained effort into the marriage. Then it shows love. I've had neither. Now that I'm leaving he may try to do what I want and need, but I'm highly doubtful he'll succeed at meeting my needs, and more importantly, he's had over 20 years to step up and has not.

I'm getting excited about my future. Finding who I am again. Making new friends, trying to create a new life with all kinds of possibilities.

It is tricky to extricate myself from this marriage since we are full blown parent/child relationship and he is fully dependent on me. I'm hoping that I'll be much happier in my life after marriage but I don't know. After reading the book I suggested, the conclusion is that it's too bad to stay and I should have no regrets leaving.

I'm getting excited about my

Submitted by ArtGamer on Mon, 05/22/2017 - 23:08

I'm getting excited about my future. Finding who I am again. Making new friends, trying to create a new life with all kinds of possibilities.

That is super excellent. Superlative in every way.

I am also starting to clearly imagine the possibilities. And they are getting more and more tempting.

vabeachgal, the replies and choices

Submitted by dedelight4 on Tue, 05/23/2017 - 16:37

This is a very introspective train of posts. I'm reading and agreeing with everyone here, who has written what their lives are like now, after long term marriages to ADHD, with their partner either being under treated, in denial, and unhealthy patterns all around. This has also been my life with my husband. After 34 years of being married, ( almost 25 until we got a diagnosis) I was just plain worn out, in every way possible, and that's why I left last year. (for self preservation) I was SO TIRED after all those years, and it wore me out. Now that I'm older, my body can't handle the stress of it, like before. I too, questioned myself after all those years, and my self esteem was down to nothing.

I am back at the house now, and my husband wants us to "work things out". He IS trying harder than he used to, but he's still not allowing us to address the ADHD issues as a couple. He still wants to see it as a focus problem, instead of something more. The year I was gone DID help me gain more strength, but it also changed how I felt about him. I was "in love" with him for all those years, but after he told me he was never "in love" with me, and was still in love with his old girlfriend, (who was his first true love), that was IT. My "in love" feelings changed, and I don't feel the same any longer. Part of me is bothered by that, but I believe it's healthier for me to keep a certain amount of emotional distance from him. DH also now says, "He just wasn't thinking right", when he said those things to me, and he wants us to be a married couple again, but he's going to have to earn back my trust.

I know now, I didn't leave in the best way I could have, but I was SO extremely worn down, and worn out, that doing any kind of cognitive thinking to try to better our lives wasn't possible. My husband is very strong willed, stubborn, and would dig his heels in when he was doing things such as coming up with new ways to make money, changing jobs, or making choices for us, and almost all of those decisions have ended up in some sort of failure, mostly financial, but also mentally, emotionally and spiritually as well. And now, it looks like we are going to have to declare bankruptcy once again, and we are in our early 60's. Not a good place to be in, right before retirement age, and especially since BOTH our healths are declining.

DH is a very capable person, in certain areas more than others, but not wanting to take any input from me, especially if I had concerns or reservations about his decisions, seemed to make him dig his heels in deeper, and he would decide things for BOTH of us, on his own. I feel BAD for him, because I've wanted so many things to work out for him, and I supported him in his decisions even when I KNEW it wasn't the best path for us. So, I've enabled this as well, in many ways, which I work on now. Thing is, now HE'S afraid to make any more decisions, thinking it's automatically going to "fail", but this is why I encouraged him that we need to talk things out TOGETHER, and come to decisions TOGETHER, and make sure we're both on the same page with whatever we're doing, where before, he would call his friends, family, whoever and discuss 'our" decisions with them and THEN decide, without input from me. I still don't understand where this comes from, because I don't harass him over anything, and especially don't put him down because he's failed at something. So, I don't understand WHY he had such a problem accepting my input. But, now I told him we MUST agree together, and no more secrets or decisions about important things without the other's knowledge.

He's now in what I think is a severe depression, and he's not even getting out of bed most days. This is totally NOT normal for him, since he's been majorly hyperactive and go,go,go....since I've known him. He's never stopped, ever, until now. He's very down on himself because he's finally looked at everything and now sees the destruction that's been left from his choices. He's really down about it. I had him make an appointment with the doctor, just so that we can see if anything physical is going on, but this is really extreme for him. He says he has no energy, is tired all the time, sleeps, watches television and plays on his tablet, only doing the basic things he absolutely HAS to do, during the day. (again unusual for him)

Vabeachgal, you talked about your husband avoiding negative feelings. That is something my husband has done all these years. He can often do things to cause negative reactions in people, but then gets angry/defensive when that happens. But, for himself, he avoids anything that might cause him negative feelings, which is probably why this "depressive" state seems so intense, because I think his avoidance has finally caught up with him. He's feeling it, and this now has him worried, because he KNOWS this is very unlike him.

He's never told me he can see the effects of his decisions on me, but like you said Vagirl, your husband doesn't "see" you either. It's an awareness thing? I guess? a choice? The others on here with ADHD, who are aware and have insight into their lives, and are putting positive actions INTO practice, have been exciting to read about. It tells us that people don't HAVE to suffer their entire lives, or negatively affect their families, etc. IT CAN BE WORKED THROUGH and folks can have pretty decent lives. I do wish more folks with this condition would or could accept this.

All the years DH "worked", and spent countless years on his computer "working", when I know a great deal of it was him doing things he didn't really HAVE to do. There were many things he did, just to DO something, and stay busy, with no tangible outcome from it. So, he was actually lying when he said he was working. He was "working" but on things he didn't NEED to do, when there were so many things that he DID need to do. It did make it unfair for me to do the lions share of the household work, children, school, yard, laundry, constant clean up of messes, car clean, shopping, all holiday events, etc. and he stayed in his office "to work".

But, now, he is doing some more of these things that he never did before, which helps. And, the story continues......

I retired after 37 years on the job at age 56 so I could manage.

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 16:35

(Any suggestions? Any recommendations to make this journey easier? Any techniques or ways to think about this that will help me emotionally buffer myself and regain some personal stability?)

In answer to your question above I will just say this...I had to make it all about me, because as you and everyone else here know's, we can write posts all day. We can fret, enable, and bemoan the circumstances of our lives w/ them, but we can't change one thing about them.

So after 5 or 6 years, I started the journey of self-awareness. And, acceptance of reality!...It's easy for me to tell when I'm not at peace within myself...I start making it about her...But as long I live my life with the awareness that I can't allow her reality (life style) to dominate my thoughts. And make sure I count my blessings, and keep a thankful spirit, then I live well.....

There are things that if I allow my mind and thoughts to start saying; this should not BE this way! (Reality will always BE the way it is) Then I become unstable emotionally about not liking reality, which will always lead to me being and unwise Victim....

I couldn't do this on my own, I must trust in the Christ who lives in me, to give me his Power and Love for this to happen!

Just think about our spouses?...(the connection I felt to you) All of those who say Wow..Me too!...That's Reality!

Think about it like this...Have you ever saw a child, say a sweet little boy or girl grab onto their Fathers leg real tight, and the Father makes a game out it by walking stiff legged and moving along w/ the child hanging on to his leg real tight?? That's how it is for us much of the time...But the one hanging onto our leg, we view as an adult...And in appearance they are...But all the things we share in common says the reality of their life is more like the innocent immature child...So am I going to accept that? Or am I going to spend my life saying...It shouldn't BE this way!!

So what to do?...Well I've learned to place my expectations on myself just like I am single when it comes to the chores and stuff that matters to me, I'm never disappointed that way, and if I am, it's at myself....So to clean out the Frig from time to time, learn to live w/ messy flat surfaces, learn to do my laundry, learn to keep the floors done, Don't share finances and accounts...And just because I believe in discipline in certain areas of life, don't expect her to be able or care to do the same....I go on time, she can drive separate and come when she wants...Boundaries are a must when our lives are as far as the East is from the West...I do my best to not judge her behaviors and actions....I've learned to calmly say no, and I'm learning to walk away from intrusive living....What I've come to realize is, there is No ability with her mind to not be intrusive, to not try to control, to force, or use others for her own benefit or entertainment.....There is no awareness that she is even doing it....So when we point it out....Just like a minor child, who has no ability for self-awareness they to just feel beat up...

Love....Walking away...Boundaries....Calmness....Recognizing that words and verbal communication attempts when they can't be received, followed or comprehended is futility and will always lead to negativity an conflict....

Her story hurts so much

Submitted by smd1409 on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 19:35

It hurts so much for me because I understand her pain so much I feel like I want to cry. ADHD symptoms get worse depending on your emotional state. If they let their self-esteem hit rock bottom, the negatives of their ADHD come in full force and nothing gets through to them except themselves. It becomes an incredibly lonely world.

When my wife tried to calm me and pick up after me, I wouldn't accept it. Just like you and your wife. The reason for why I wouldn't accept it is because I felt so worthless repeatedly failing at life and seeing my wife make up for my mistakes. I hated seeing myself trouble my wife and my wife trouble herself for me in order to correct the situation. I wanted to be the one to help her. So when she said it's okay I wouldn't accept it. It hurts when it feels like you are unable to do the simplest things to help. If your wife is like me, the reason she won't accept your supportive comments is because she is so deeply in love with you that she can't bare to see you get hurt, let alone get hurt over and over again. You've said it yourself; you want to build bigger boundaries and feel like you have to treat her like a child. She recognises that and that's what hurts so much. I recognised it too. My wife set up reminders and texts and gave me supportive words and tried to pick up after me because she felt that things would go wrong, just like you. Even when I wanted her to stop because I realized it was making me worse, she insisted and did it secretly. And I reacted, in a manner just like your wife. I defended myself, just like her. Because I knew what my wife was thinking. I could see that a part of her saw me as useless and just a thorn in her life, exactly the way you see your wife when it comes to daily activities.

It's so painful to see how everyone likes to see us as a problem and think we don't care about our partners when if anything we can be screaming and killing ourselves just so we can support you. Your tactics don't work, simply because it didn't work for me. It may even be that they don't work yet.

It is a very painful pill to swallow but you need to know: you may cause just as much trouble for your wife as she does to you. You think you've been trying to help her when in actual reality you may have been making it harder for her. I can spot moments where you probably hurt her self-esteem quite strongly without realising. You told her maybe she shouldn't use ovens because she might get burnt. That's like telling me not to walk outside because I'll regularly walk into a wall and get hurt, because I really do have a tendency to do that. It is incredibly patronising and suggests to her just how low you think her standards and abilities are. Using a knife or oven is not complex. You called it complex in front of her. You don't realise but that was actually a seriously insulting comment.

I only made large amounts of progress once I stopped listening to my wife, stopped her attempts to help me and actively went against her advice because I realised just how much she set me back. It was only when she could see the incredible jumps in progress I made without her that she finally understood that the tactics she used were not helpful whatsoever and that her understanding of my circumstances was severely limited. If you can her to make any sort of progress and help her create a habit which is useful, her self esteem will boost and she will start being able to take supportive comments in a way you can see is comforting to her.

I am very very fortunate to have ADHD which hyperfocuses in on psychology on what is literally an hourly basis because it has allowed me to understand myself and the nature of others to such a great accuracy that I have on multiple occasions stated the consequences of someone's actions in great detail before they commit it, only for them to commit those actions still and find those exact events unfold in front of them. This was and is the catalyst that allowed me to make the progress that I made. However others with ADHD like your wife may not be as fortunate. Her hyperfocus may be elsewhere and she doesn't realise how much of an ability it can be. So though she can make great strides in her relationship with you as well as her life in general, she will be unable to describe her life in a manner that helps herself and you as I have done with myself and my wife in order to see those strides. If anything I'm still struggling to overcome many parts of my ADHD myself. I can't look at the apps on my phone without them regularly causing me to forget everything I was about to do. So far my best attempt at stopping this was to tell Siri to open an app for me because I knew seeing apps on a screen would cause me to forget what I was after. Even that isn't completely successful (it helps though).

I guess if anything, you might find solace in that I can see that your wife is trying as hard as she possibly can to make you happy and that the struggle isn't just from your side. Some people find it useful to write down their concerns in a journal, but it needs to be countered with good things. For every concern you have, write down 5 good things about her. It could literally be for example that you like her hair, or something more special like how she helped you when were in trouble. To make it easier, after collecting enough good points about her, everyday read 5 random good points that you've written about her.

@ smd1409

Submitted by ArtGamer on Sat, 05/20/2017 - 19:49

@ smd1409

Thank you for your input.

However, if you recall, I was primarily asking about ways to help myself. This tree has bent too far in the wind and is about to break. There is nothing more I can do for my wife at this point, I have nothing more I can give until my life stabilizes and is balanced again.

But I do have a few questions for you.

Are you emotionally abusive to your wife because of ADHD?
For example, have you told her that you would be happier if she went back to being crippled in a wheelchair? Have you suggested she become an alcoholic because then she would be more fun? Of course, those things would have more impact if (1) your wife had once been in a wheelchair, and (2) you came from a family with a history of alcoholism. But think of something that would really hurt your wife's feelings. Now blurt it out to her.
How would she feel if you started saying these things every week, then increased it to twice a week, then every other day? How would she feel if this started 9 months ago?
Should I be sympathetic to your wife because you have emotionally abused her? Does it matter if you didn't mean to emotionally abuse her?
Should I be sympathetic to you because you keep hurting your wife but you claim you don't remember saying those things or have control over them?
Now what if you not only were verbally abusive to your wife, but you stopped coming home? What if you failed to show up for 100% of your dates, dinners, movies, all of your plans for 100% of the last 4 months?
But not only were you emotionally abusive, didn't show up for a single plan in 4 months, but you did manage to show up 90% of your plans with other people that excluded your wife?
Is is really your wife's duty to grow a thicker skin, to become immune to your words and actions, to completely give up her hopes and dreams, to completely become a different person to accommodate your ADHD?
At what point should your wife stop feeling sorry for you and simply leave?

Sincerest apologies

Submitted by smd1409 on Sun, 05/21/2017 - 01:35

I sincerely apologise, I became emotionally attached at a time when I was tired. It was my mistake to try posting despite knowing the bias towards this at the time, what it might lead to and that it would be better to cool off for a moment.

So, I'm back to normal now. So I'll answer these neutrally the way I usually do and try to make up for my previous mistake if you would allow me. The techniques that could help you cope were stated at the end of my previous post if you want the suggestions.

You have almost reached breaking point, but I think she already had 9 months ago. A lot of her actions suggest that she's completely given up her trust in you and herself. I might be able to explain to you why and how so let me know if you want me to (it requires a long example). Although I may not have experienced those actual actions myself, I had the option to be like that at one point, except as always, I was fortunate to have understood human nature and saw that if I chose to let go of my thoughts the way your wife did, it would have lead to that.

There was a point in my life where I literally did not know what was and wasn't real anymore. I could no longer tell who or what sort of person I was, if I could improve, if I loved my wife, if I could continue living, no sense of justice (I realised that I could no longer even sense whether killing was even immoral or not). However I saw a new path out: what if, rather than trying to continue to improve so I could be useful to those around me and for in, I tried a new path? A path where I no longer had to think about my consequences, where I could live the life I want according to my feelings so that I no longer had to feel useless every single day. A feeling that I had been experiencing for most of my adult life. To accept that I have flaws which would never heal and to live my life according to it? I would no longer have to be seen as a constant problem to everyone, I could do the damage that everyone had been causing to me. After all I've spent my life making myself out to be the problem so this time I can make everyone else the problem and if they don't understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, tough. They've never understood me, if anything they've been making me the problem so they can get to feel the same pain I did. Like when you see someone being murdered in cold blood and you want that person to die the same way so they can realise what they've done. That theme where someone takes hold of their need for revenge and the prices of it feels so good (ignoring how people always say it doesn't relax you afterwards).

The thing is once again these thoughts are rational in that they are exactly the same thoughts that would have run through a normal non-ADHD person if they had experienced the life we had. After all, if every other method failed and not only you recognised and blamed yourself for it, the whole world recognised and blamed you for it, this method is completely different so it might actually work. It's just another method of trying to get better. It's worth trying right? Because everything else failed. Remember once again trying to battle these thought when you couldn't even tell who was your family and who want as well as what is considered just. I was almost mentally insane apart from that one part of my mind that believed in God. Even that had become unstable. It became my ticket out of those thoughts. And it worked.

No amount of explaining can do what your wife is going through any justice. Neither can your explanation of your life allow her to understand you. I've realised that in order to be more understanding of others, you need to stop trying to understand them and start trusting them. Even my wife has come to that conclusion after she could see the progress I made.

You don't have to be sympathetic, but you want to and I can see that. We all want to be sympathetic by nature and you've held onto it, just as I had when those thoughts came flooding in that day. That's what usually saves marriages if they can be saved really- that sacrifice of your own well-being in order to help the well-being of your spouse. As for how much if that well-being you want to sacrifice before giving up, that's up to you to decide.

Despite what I've said to you, she is quite fortunate to have you. Because even though I feel my wife has set me back so much in my life the way she probably felt I had with her, I cannot imagine a life without her because the best years of my life have been with her and I could not have gotten through some points without her as you have said so yourself with your wife, so the good she's done far outweighs her bad. Life-saving actions are pretty high on the list of good things. You can't really put a weight on that to begin with. And all this seems to be what you think too.

Thank you for your input and

Submitted by ArtGamer on Sun, 05/21/2017 - 04:17

Thank you for your input and perspective in this conversation.

Perfect example of two incomprehendible realities....

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 05/21/2017 - 02:21

This post by smd 1409....And your response/questions (artGamer) back to him....Is the perfect example of how our relationships work...Two different realities...As different as Light and Dark...

I've made this comment many times, and I'm going to make it again...."There are many many people in this life, who aren't fit (fit meaning, equipped for success) to be in a marriage (2 =1) relationship."

They can live their way, and find a way to get by...But many who live in this kind of mind will struggle, if ever, be able to handle the task of living with another human in harmony...Where it takes unity, understanding, and the ability to communicate calmly and openly...

It's just not in some peoples make-up to be able to take on the responsibility that comes w/ marriage. (even if they desire it going in)...

A person who lives in a mind that is so self-absorbed (a mind that because of it's traits, overwhelms the Individual daily) it has no ability to perceive it's on actions, makes it unfit to co-exist is the close intimate quarters of a 2=1 relationship, where unity and communication is a must....Abuse will always spring out of these type relationships...Because they aren't capable in most instances of anything else. Since there is no comprehension between the two realities...Just like the realities spoken by you two above....

All the dynamics we can identify...Fight or Flight...Now, Not Now...All of these are just coping mechanisms that surface because of the inability to comprehend each others realities. So to avoid the pain of this paradox...People do anything....Blame, Denial, Fight, Run away, Insult, etc..etc...There are no rules when one is seeking to survive...And when there is no ability to SEE each others realities, no ability for unity of mind...Then all you have left is a fight for survival....And all the destruction and damage it inflicts on our hearts and minds...

This conversation has been

Submitted by ArtGamer on Sun, 05/21/2017 - 04:53

This conversation has been extremely helpful and I would like to sincerely thank everyone for their contributions so far.

Of course, things are not resolved and it will take far longer than a few days to stabilize my life. But over the last few days I have made some temporary progress by shifting my scheduled activities to the middle of the night. It is a bit bizarre to be exercising then eating a decent meal at 2AM, but it is worth it. The cat thinks it is great to have company at that time. I have also been able to get other things done around the house. It's far from ideal but at least it is temporarily better than before.

On Saturday evening there was a glimmer that the Strattera might have started working. We had a relatively normal conversation and she even showed signs of her sense of humor returning.

But regardless of what lies ahead, it is clear I still need to develop some kind of system for myself. I need to restructure my life to better ensure and protect my personal stability. I need to better recognize when her ADHD is flaring so that I can take additional actions to insulate myself from the effects, which will no doubt help both of us. For example, if I can recognize when she is having trouble we can simply stop planning things that set us both up for added disappointment and frustration.

I will never be comfortable with personal attacks and emotional abuse, but if I can improve my personal stability (again) it will have far less effect on me.

And these forums have helped me more clearly accept that should our relationship continue down the rabbit hole, it is better for me to embrace the inevitable and do what is best for my well being. I no longer face that possibility with fear or a sense of failure.

Reading the experiences of those who have put even more time in than I have has been an eye-opener. To all those with tales of suffering and anguish, all of the years you wish you could get back, thank you for helping me better understand my situation by sharing your pain.

One thing that I forgot to

Submitted by ArtGamer on Sun, 05/21/2017 - 08:44

One thing that I forgot to add above is my firm conclusion that the current level of "abandonment" in our relationship will never be acceptable. I do not have unreasonable expectations. I do not expect her to show up all the time or always on time. I do not have some crazy system of rules, just something we worked out together that supports and maintains a healthy relationship. Unless there are extraordinary circumstances, we should be able to do a few things together each week. Eating a meal together or watching a movie together both meet the requirements. And if you can't spend at least a few hours together a week doing something fun, there really isn't much point.

This isn't some arbitrary thing, this is what we figured out over the years as our minimum requirement to maintain a healthy relationship. More time together is usually better. Less is not. 4 months of broken plans is unprecedented for the last decade.

Even when I have been bedridden from arthritis we still could manage to watch something together or play a board game. When she was recuperating from surgery for months, I setup everything for her and I even survived several Lifetime Movies (ha). When we've had deaths in the family or our pets have moved on, these things helped us. These are the simple, easy things that help bring stability into those tough times. And previously when her ADHD flared, these stable and predictable things helped her.

Of course, I can't make her do anything. Nor do I want to. I respect that she can make whatever choices she wants. But there are repercussions to all of our actions, even in relationships, and neglecting a relationship has predictable results.

There is also a simple, non ADHD explanation for her behavior. She could be having an affair. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. But when I calmly presented the facts and asked her, she said no. So I'm going to let that go unless something proves otherwise, and stick with the understanding that all of this is ADHD and not infidelity or a combination of ADHD and infidelity.

I agree; It will always take two giving effort....Always!

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 05/23/2017 - 01:42

(One thing that I forgot to add above is my firm conclusion that the current level of "abandonment" in our relationship will never be acceptable.)

It took me about 8 years or little over to come to peace with leaving...If I determine in a peaceful mind (I will never leave mad) that it is the only way for me and her to live out our lives in a peaceful state then I will go... I just did not want to end the marriage unless I felt like I had done all I could and should have done...I finally came to that point about 8 or 10 months ago...

I have been so emotionally distraught for most of our marriage because no matter what I did or said it was perceived wrongly by her. (She hates accountability talk) What I came to realize is it's not up to me to help her be a wife....And it's not up to me to cover her responsibilities in this marriage....I've come to realize through the reality of us trying to abide as H and W, that if a man or women don't honor and desire their roles in a marriage, then they will never be rightly related, and the marriage will only be a shell of what it is intended to be...And you can't give that conviction and desire to another person, no matter how bad you would like to....

So back a couple years ago I started just saying no to the things I knew would turn out bad. Things we really was far apart on...I'm not blaming her here, I'm just saying when a spouse isn't held in honor, and the proper priority in your life, they know it, and it will always be an unhealthy situation. There are many things that can hinder this, and it's different from person to person...Many times it's not intentional in our marriage, but it doesn't change the facts, the behaviors nor the out come...

The only thing that has really helped my W with this reality is my withdrawal...Not necessarily withdrawal from our daily interactions at home...But my withdrawal from sharing or taking part in certain functions where the probability of Hyper focus and faulty priorities surfacing are very high...

I told her back about two years ago now that I would not be doing certain things with her that over the life of our marriage has only produced conflict...I told her that we can do anything we can afford and agree on IF, we never put a person, place or thing ahead of our relationship....The first time I told her that she cussed LOL...

But I've watch over the past couple of years as she has come to the realization that I meant it, and secondly I was right...She has been slowly changing, as have I....

Acceptance of each others realities and managing our own lives has calmed our relationship way down...

Tonight was a perfect example....We had some stormy weather, I was washing dishes and stir frying some vegetables, she had picked up a rotisserie chicken on the way home from the gym...She wanted me to do something for her (TV was knock out temporarily by the weather) and I walked in here to help her out...The minute I helped her, she was done w/ me (all her attention was on the TV, the thing she was interested in at the moment) never looked at me, cut me off as I made a comment about what I did, and ignored me....So I walked back into the kitchen and calmly told her that I don't care if you never talk to me, But don't ask me for help, then cut me off and ignore me....She immediately said she was sorry...But then she got up, walked in the kitchen looked at me in the eyes and told me she was sorry, Kissed me asked what she could do to help....I kissed her back and told her I loved her and that i had it.....Now this IS NOT :) the way it use to happen with us... I use to be offend by her rudeness ( I know it's adhd and terrible habit to a degree, but it don't change the fact that it's rude and insulting behavior) and pointed out not nearly as calm...And she would most always just jump strait into denial or get angry and spout out something ugly or call me a name....

Yep, it takes two doing the work, always has, and always will...

Signs of ADHD Flare?

Submitted by ArtGamer on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 21:00

(Edited for improvements and clarity)

There have been so many common themes here, symptoms of ADHD flaring in our spouses (or sadly in some cases never improving).

Because we don't have a "National Weather Service for ADHD" to announce when there is an "ADHD Tornado Watch," possibly followed by a Warning, I am trying to develop a warning system for myself. By preparing for the oncoming storm, at least I can close my emotional shutters and tie down the porch furniture to have a better chance of surviving it with less emotional injury.

Here's what I've come up with so far for warnings her ADHD is flaring. These are in the order that I usually first observe them. Sometimes it never gets all the way down the list, but when it does reach the bottom I'm usually "in a pickle" and have been for some time.

ADHD Advisory:

Loss of Sense of Humor – self-explanatory, starts small then completely disappears
Clutter – increases above normal levels, refusal to do anything about it
Interrupting – self-explanatory
Unneeded Change – sudden and unexpected announcements of plans to change employment, move, new schemes or pipe dreams, basically announcements of big changes that are not only unnecessary but almost always destructive
Belligerence – contrary, oppositional behavior increases, hyper critical, arguing about things that are unnecessary, disagreeing over facts (like the color of your car), acting out, taking actions different from intended, discussed, agreed
Destructiveness – starts walking heavily or stomping, clumsiness, carelessness, increased bruising and minor injuries, objects are getting damaged and broken more frequently and consistently, driving deteriorates
Noise – shifts from normal, starts yelling from across the house, needs background noise or music, plays things unusually loud, needs absolute silence

During an ADHD Advisory, be careful to not react or take action. The ADHD brain is now working differently, no longer perceiving and processing the same way we do. Do not take perceived problems seriously and do not take it personally.

ADHD Watch:

Using the Wrong Tool for the Job – uses a spoon instead of a hammer or uses a good towel to mop a stain, gradually stops using timers, alarms, phones, lists
Appearance and Hygiene – starts with changes and inconsistencies, gets more disheveled over time, may even stop brushing teeth unless reminded
Defensiveness – starts to appear more frequently, grows extreme, consumes even the most benign conversations
Lateness – losing time regularly increases to more than one hour, failure to show up even for good or fun things
Financial – starts with irregularities that become frequent, begins stressing about imaginary financial concerns, never enough money even when everything is fine
Non-Domestic Activities – these increase, then become extreme and always at the expense of domestic life, visits friends and family unusually often, has guests in the house too often
Self-Sabotage – starts making even the simplest things difficult then becomes dysfunctional, stops eating properly, no longer makes doctors appointments, scheduled car maintenance, etc.

During an ADHD Watch, additional independence is necessary. Take preliminary actions to protect the household, finances, and personal well-being. Lock away the credit cards. Stop making plans together and do not attempt even simple activities like movies, TV, or dinner. Take on all responsibilities for yourself and the household. Adjust schedules to begin avoidance and only expect productivity when the ADHD spouse is not home or asleep. Do not take it personally.

ADHD Warning:

Personal Space Blindness – starts with occasionally getting in the way of physical activities then increases, inappropriate proximity
Consistent Misreaction – overreaction, underreaction, wrong body language, wrong facial expressions, wrong comments – simple example: when given a present she frowns, gets angry and agitated, says bizarre things
Circles – circuitous thinking starts small, then resolution and action becomes impossible
Groundhog Day – the same conversations, stresses, imagined problems get resolved then appear again over and over and over
Victimhood – self-explanatory
Interference and Sabotage – moves beyond self-sabotage, starts with constantly breaking plans and dates but blames others, moves onto interfering with and sabotaging others
Almost Complete Loss of Priority – starts low then doesn't even appear to try anymore
Almost Complete Loss of Cause and Effect – gradually then completely blind to how personal choices and actions affect themselves, relationships, work, home, activities, anything
Chaos – starts gradually, then overwhelms everything, there can be no productive or positive interactions at all, avoidance is the only option

During an ADHD Warning the relationship must be completely suspended and normal activity is impossible. Avoidance is mandatory. The priority is personal well-being by maintaining emotional and physical health. Emergency measures to maintain personal stability and stress management go into effect. Evacuation may be required. Do not take it personally.

So by the time the "Watch" items appear, I'm already stressed and affected emotionally. It's already windy and raining, I may not be able to get the shutters closed and the porch furniture may have already blown away.

And by the time we hit "Warning," most if not all of us are considering separation. Over time we get worn down so we can no tolerate it getting that far before avoidance and thoughts of separation reappear. Increasing age diminishes our ability to withstand the stress. Wisdom comes into it as well. It's like living on an island that keeps getting hit by hurricanes, eventually most people burn out and move inland.

Now clearly some of these cross over and can fit into broader, more clinical categories. But I'm looking for signs of the oncoming storm, not causes. When we see a thunderhead in the sky and hear thunder in the distance, we don't stand outside thinking about the temperature differentials causing the storm and waiting for the lightening to hit us. We take cover. I'm trying to figure out those clear and identifiable signs for ADHD flares so I can take cover before being knocked over by the winds or hit by the hail and lighting.

Does anyone have observations from your own spouse that stick out as warnings? Things that can be added to this list?

(Edit: My current situation with the hurt feelings (aw, poor me, please get out your violins) is based upon previous lack of understanding and a lack of awareness. I had no clue, took none of the actions listed above, and got more confused and frustrated each week. It is possible I may not get this upset in the future if I implement the system above to prepare for the storm. Before I was reacting, now I'm talking about preparing and being proactive for myself.)

You have great powers of

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Tue, 05/23/2017 - 21:25

You have great powers of observation! I'm impressed. It has been awhile since my ex and I have lived together, and so it's hard for me to remember if I noticed warning signs or conditions. I do recall that I noticed something (although I don't know what) almost 10 years ago, when my ex was still employed by an outside employer (he now is his parents' caregiver), that caused me to decide to take over as many of the parenting and household tasks and responsibilities as possible, to allow him to focus on his job. I obviously sensed that he was struggling but I can't remember the specifics. (Didn't do much good; he ended up making a huge error involving his work vehicle and he was fired on the spot.)

Thank you. I've been keeping

Submitted by ArtGamer on Tue, 05/23/2017 - 22:15

Thank you. I've been keeping a personal journal for a long time. It was never intended to do anything but sort out myself, but it is now also proving very useful for understanding more about ADHD and how it applies to our specific situation. Before a few weeks ago, I had no idea that ADHD had anything to with our life together. Now I'm piecing things together and beginning to recognize the patterns.

It isn't all about her, either. I simply didn't understand enough, I thought tons of this stuff was personality traits. Now I'm seeing things more clearly, seeing them for what they are. But I also need to build a new understanding for how I fit into this and if this is sustainable. And the same way I cannot expect her to change her nature, it is unreasonable for me to change mine.

I definitely don't see her as defined by her ADHD. Most of the time she is a very impressive person, ADHD or not. However, I now understand that our relationship has been overwhelmingly defined by her ADHD. And that brings us back to my original question of futility. I'm going to start specifically looking for the answer to that, really paying attention to the good times and the bad, weighing them against each other, to really see if this is something I am capable of navigating in a healthy way. If I can do it, great because our relationship will be stronger and I will be more stable, and if I can't do it, that is also great because I will have an answer and know with certainty that we are now fundamentally incompatible and my future lies elsewhere.

And this isn't really all about her ADHD. I'm not the same person I was 20+ years ago when we married. I would like to think that most of my change is positive growth, but regardless I have changed. There are a lot of things I don't do now that I did then. There are behaviors in myself and others that I no longer entertain. Maybe it has less to do with her and I simply can't do the same things anymore. I will know in time.

Nice List..:)

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 05/24/2017 - 00:27

Keeping it simple here and discussing this by using a formula that is basically a proven fact of human psyche....(Thinking of thoughts = feelings inside us = behaviors acted out)

My thoughts here aren't necessarily about your list of observable behaviors, because your list of items are basically fixed behaviors (that can and will surface based on her state of mind and the circumstances surrounding her life, and how she perceives them) that I also experience and live with...What I would like to address is this statement...(So by the time the "Watch" items appear, I'm already stressed and affected emotionally.)

I'm going to make a statement here about myself that has really helped me with your statement about stress and the effects her behaviors had and have on me...I was living in so much fear and apprehension of what was going to happen next I would find myself full of anxiety (even to the point of light physical shaking and irregular heart beats at times)....What happened to me, and I think what might be happening to you at times that causes this stress is....**We feel we have to respond to these behaviors by pointing it out, questioning it or attempting to verbally fix it... Or, even if we don't necessarily think it, we do**

Most of the trouble in my relationship has been based on this premise....**My thinking, my feelings, and my reactions to her behaviors** Let me define relationship trouble right here...(trouble between two people)...The reason I wanted to make that clear is because...I can clearly have trouble in my life that belongs to me...She can also have the same....This is not relationship trouble...This fact is saving my life from a stress perspective...It's all about ownership....I have to own my negative stuff...thoughts=feelings=behaviors without excuse...So the only way for me to do that is to not associate (blame) my weaknesses, fears, and unhealthy thinking to my W....I have to be completely responsible for what my life is producing...My words and actions....

She must do the same...If not we never grow, we never find healing...A person can learn about any subject they want to until they own a Doctorate level intellect on the subject, but, in order for this knowledge to produce good things...We still have to do the work!..

If you watch people (no matter what you label them) those who live well and are at peace are usually self aware people who are accountable for their own actions...Just the opposite for people who are always looking for an excuse or is always the victim in life....

What I realized after I had been married to my W, 4 or 5 years was that I had slowly became the later. I hated the things on your list so bad (didn't know much at the time about how her mind worked, and thought every behavior was intentional, and judged it from my minds ability to relate) that it was all I could focus on...So in effect I lost myself, and just became a victim...

Thanks, C. I think we're in

Submitted by ArtGamer on Wed, 05/24/2017 - 08:46

(edit for clarity)

Thanks, C. I think we're in slightly different places, you've had a ton more experience with this than I have. I seriously had no clue all of these behaviors were ADHD until a few weeks ago. Since I met my wife in college in 1990, it has been mentioned to me maybe a handful of times and all of those were years before we were married. I was just ignorant, meaning I did not have the information. I was a "wee bairn" lost in the woods only I didn't know it.

Without understanding why, I took up the slack. I do the cleaning, cooking, finances, taxes, basically everything, I've done it for years and don't think twice about it anymore. I always thought it was baffling that she "couldn't see" dirt or trash on the floor, I thought it was just some quirk and I accepted it (I did grumble to myself or the cat once in a while, though, but not to her). She has been treated for depression, but never in these years did we discuss ADHD until a few weeks ago.

Because I was ignorant, I was just bumbling along in my life. "I'm happy!" Bumble, bumble, happy, happy. Then she would have what I now know are ADHD symptoms. I thought these were normal things that normal couples dealt with, real problems that we could process and fix like a normal couple. I simply didn't have the faintest clue that it was her brain working differently because there were often real, identifiable things I thought were the causes. So we took care of them, she got better, and I really thought these were cause and effect, problem and solution scenarios. Because I could see external stresses being resolved, then she got better, I never once considered it was anything more complicated than that. I just thought we had a lot of strange luck, even other people thought that as well.

Then over the last few years, our life stabilized. You know, house, cars, finances, furniture, toys, food, friends, everything is good. But sometimes she was, sometimes she wasn't. Out of the blue she would freak out about something. We used to have tangible external stresses I could see and identify, things I could do or we could do together to resolve a problem. But over the last few years those things weren't there, there just hasn't been that much wrong, but sometimes she freaked out anyway. Still, it just seemed like maybe she was overreacting and I didn't make a big deal out of it. I still thought everything was awesome, she was just having a difficult time adjusting to there not being any real problems.

Then one day last August she walked in the door and started on a tirade about how we needed to move. Move where? She didn't have a clue. Why? She didn't know. And because it was all very good in our life, this was the first time I fully began to see there was some disconnect in her perception. But I still didn't know it was ADHD. And I still bumbled along, happy little man having a happy little life, hoping she would center herself and resolve her issues. I would keep up the good spirits and stable home, and one day she would come around.

But it didn't end. She got more and more upset. And the confusion, stress, and frustration built and built. What changed? What was I doing wrong? Why was our life crumbling? Why wasn't she showing up? What was she so mean and upset? Why couldn't she recognize how good our life was? But I looked around, and everything real, everything tangible I could see in our life was still good. So I tried to just keep my positive perspective and bumble, bumble, happy, happy.

Then the last month my happy life cracked. One day I woke up and I wasn't happy anymore. I couldn't muster a single bit of positive attitude. All those months she hurt my feelings and destabilized our life had built up and my bubble burst. I tried but couldn't balance myself because she kept interfering, literally getting in my way when I tried to cook or exercise or read or watch TV or work. And I still didn't know it was ADHD, and it hurt like hell because I thought it was personal. It felt personal, too.

Now I'm getting it. Sometimes she's able to function more like I do, sometimes not. But changing her? No, that's never really been my goal and it certainly isn't now. And now that I've got a clue, maybe I won't get my feelings hurt because I now know it isn't about me. I may get fed up with it, but I don't think I will get my feelings hurt the same way.

But even if I never get my feelings hurt again, no amount of knowledge or understanding is going to make those times of incompatibility good. When she's in my face, when she is disrupting everything in my life, I'm not going to just stop living until she feels better. I need some kind of plan, first to still function while she is having trouble, then a working avoidance strategy, and finally an escape plan if it completely untenable.

And I don't think any of this is fear, either.

When I was younger, I sailed. I sailed in all sorts of places, including the Atlantic and Caribbean. If you fear the water, the ocean, the weather you simply can't do it. But if you don't respect the sea, the weather, nature, and things out of your control, you die.

This is more like sailing on the ocean. You still want to get from point A to point B, but there's a lot of distance in between. Sometimes there is a storm. It would be foolhardy to ignore storm warnings, ignore the clouds gathering on the horizon, ignore the wind changing. You can't keep sailing normally, you can't outrun the storm, you have to secure the boat and trim the sails. You have to be ready if the boat capsizes so you can right it and start sailing again. You can't stop, either, because there is nowhere to anchor and the nearest harbor is 1000 miles away. You've just got to take precautions, make it through the storm, and hope you didn't get blown too far off course.

My list is an attempt to learn how to read the weather. I can't change her, that's as futile as trying to change the weather, but I can change how I prepare and react to the oncoming storm.

And this isn't about imaginary silliness like the concepts of "fair" or "how it should be" either. Life isn't fair, it never has been and never will be. Of course it isn't "fair" that I have to put up with this, but it isn't "fair" for her that she has ADHD, either. Any more than it is fair that some people are tall and some short, and some are pretty and some not. I'm not into that kind of thinking, it simply doesn't work for me.

For example, I could be whining about how I have completely changed my schedule in the last several days to do things in the middle of the night after she falls asleep. It is a pain and at first I resented it a little, but this temporary avoidance strategy has massively improved the quality of my life and my stability. I am re-centering again simply because she doesn't have the same opportunities to interfere with me. Now I get at least one good meal and my exercise in peace. I can read, watch TV, play with the cat, do some chores, even do a little work. And after only a few days I'm feeling so much better, even getting happier again. So what if I had to go out of my way to do this and my life resembles that of a vampire more than a normal human? I could focus on the negative, on how this isn't the way life is supposed to be, or I can focus on the positive and enjoy the real, tangible benefits.

My long term question, which can't be answered anytime soon, is whether or not I want to or am still capable of sailing these waters. But in the meantime, I seriously need to know how to read the weather so I can prepare for the storm and don't get swamped and capsize again.

And no, I don't sail anymore. It's too difficult for me to enjoy it with the current state of my decrepitude and has been that way for years. I'm glad I experienced it, but I have no need to continue. I don't even want to putter around a lake in a boat. And that's OK, I don't need to be wistful or nostalgic about it, I can be happy without it. I hope our marriage doesn't turn out that way, but if it does I now know it will be for the best and for my own well being.

Storm Abrewing

Submitted by adhd32 on Fri, 05/26/2017 - 17:49

Hi Art,

I have been following your posts and this one really hit home. My H and I have been married for more than 30 years and he has always been cyclical with his symptoms. He becomes so much worse when he feels threatened or there is some change coming in the future.

His triggers in the past have been:

Having a contractor in our home to do big projects that he admitted were too complicated for him to tackle yet H was incredibly rude to the man and I ended up taking over all communication for fear that H would insult him and he wouldn't come back. H was the one to contact him and got the ball rolling so I was completely flabbergasted when he was so rude to the contractor. H was out of control the entire time the contactor was at the house.

Preparing to go on vacation. I always took care of packing for myself and the kids, when they were young, and all he had to do was pack for himself. He would insult us all trying to start trouble at every turn. We would always end up in a fight the night before leaving. He planned nothing and had only to get himself together. All invitations to get involved were ignored. I am wiser now and no longer engage him, I just get my things together and say nothing. He seems to enjoy traveling, I think the loss of control and the unknown set him ablaze. He usually calms down after the second day.

A change in the household such as a child leaving for college or their return afterward until they found work. Visiting the child in the child's home. Somehow I think he is jealous of them or jealous of the help we gave them. His mantra: My parents never helped me. My retort: We are not your parents, you hated your parents because they mistreated you (Probably because of the ADHD that wasn't diagnosed back then)

Signs there is impending trouble:

Noisier than usual and a lot of extra talking aloud. Extra clutter. Constant loud music to fill in the silence. Extra critical about everything from the bank teller to the barber. Being contrary about everything. Becomes careless and clumsy. His driving, which is scary, becomes downright menacing. Vocalizing pipe dream ideas that will never be realized. Withdrawal on family matters leaving me holding the bag. Setting me up so that his omissions make me look like the bad guy. His body language (which looks like a 6 year old boy having to shop for a dress clothes..why do I have to...whaaaaa). Paying the bills late or one bill 2x and not another. Trouble balancing checking account. Losing things.

Many behaviors can be forgiven but the one thing H does that is unforgivable is using his appalling behavior to try to upstage the host, the graduate, the person of honor, the new homeowner, etc. I don't apologize anymore, he is who he is and thanks to his behavior he has alienated many people. I wonder what life is like living with someone who wants to cooperate and be on the same team instead of always being the opponent.

Thanks! You reminded me of a

Submitted by ArtGamer on Fri, 05/26/2017 - 18:46

Thanks! You reminded me of a few behaviors that I overlooked. The auditory and noise changes are definitely one, and that reminded me of the "heavy walking" and stomping around the house that also starts up. Driving habits definitely get worse.

LOL, and vacations? We've only had one, single successful vacation, ever, and that was 2 weeks last July. Vacations definitely trigger the ADHD, even just paid time off staying at home. I rarely try anymore, it is just too stressful and miserable of an experience to plan something and have it always fall apart.

Has anyone else experienced an ADHD obsession with thrift shops and trinket stores? She can't stop herself. Her father was a million times worse, at least she doesn't pull over to the side of the road to pickup broken and discarded objects to bring home. But if she is driving along and sees a Goodwill or Dollar Tree, it is as though she can't help herself. She pulls in and gets lost for hours. Thankfully she no longer buys as much, but it has still screwed up a lot of things in our life simply by her going MIA for 2-3 hours when we had plans.

My ex isn't obsessed with

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 05/26/2017 - 18:52

My ex isn't obsessed with thrift stores but he does love dollar stores and he has a hard time throwing things away. I think that trait comes in part from his parents, who also had a hard time with discarding items. But at least his parents were organized; my ex isn't. I'm finding it stressful to deal with the junk he left in the house.

Yesssss........

Submitted by adhd32 on Fri, 05/26/2017 - 22:05

We live in a large East Coast city where there is constant turn over of companies that move in and out of high rise office buildings. These buildings gut and renovate their spaces frequently as tenants move in and out. H's job takes him from place to place all over the city. When he was driving his car into the city on a daily basis, he would go through the dumpsters and drag things home. Boxes of envelopes and stationary with the defunct company's logo, plastic cups, office chairs and discarded office equipment all found their way to our house. What are we supposed to do with this stuff, we had no need for any of it? Things aren't worth anything unless you can use them, a concept he cannot grasp. If he paid $50 for something 10 years ago, it is worth at least $49 dollars now even though it is outdated and sat outside for the last 5 years. I wait until he is at work during the week and toss or recycle this crap. In all the years we have been married there has never been an instance when he has asked about it. I think he is on to the next "treasure". We want to move from our family home which is too big now that we are empty nesters but he argues with me when I suggest that he start weeding out the prized possessions in the garage. The last time he asked me why I haven't been looking at potential places to move I told him I cannot stand to argue about the stuff so when I start to see some forward movement in the garage I will jump back on the real estate hunt. I don't think he will ever be able to part with his things and I resent that we will never move on.

ArtGamer, incredible list..

Submitted by dedelight4 on Sat, 05/27/2017 - 12:48

Wow, Art, this is an incredible list, and as I was reading, I was shaking my head yes, because I've lived through these. Wow, a warning list.......incredible. Yep, my husband has done all these. He also gets VERY LOUD, (caps) because he has a loud voice to begin with, but when he gets agitated, he can startle people with how LOUD his voice is. If we are in the car his voice can be deafening. Then there is driving the car. He drives so bad, and swerves all over the road, which makes me nauseous every time we go somewhere. He's also hit and banged up the car by bumping into things he says, "OH, I didn't see that". He can do that, but the rest of us aren't supposed to, which he gets VERY angry at us, if WE do something like that.

The double standard of living is probably the WORST of all the things, because he allows so many more "goofs" for himself than he would ever allow for us, on top of the verbal put downs he says he "doesn't mean". Yep, it gets exhausting to be on the receiving end of all this. People JUST DON'T KNOW unless they've had to LIVE with it.

I appreciate your post, ArtGamer...

Submitted by Zapp10 on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 20:15

As soon as I can get my printer to work I am printing it off....for me. You put it all so very well...and I enjoyed the parallel scenario... which is so close to how it is WHEN the person with ADHD doesn't believe they HONESTLY have it. They create a lose lose situation.

I have said before.. .I can love my H from afar...for my own sanity. I will not continue a facade of a marital relationship. Wow...can't believe I am saying that.....after 44 years together.

Today I realized that it has

Submitted by ArtGamer on Fri, 05/26/2017 - 21:58

Today I realized that it has been 6 weeks since my personal and emotional stability collapsed from by wife's recent ADHD flare. Of course, that doesn't include the prior months of frustration from this specific flare, just the point that I finally started getting overwhelmed.

I spent the same amount of time in bereavement over the loss of our last cat. As sad as I was over that, this is worse. That was a fixed event in time. As awful as that was, I only had to put the cat to sleep and bury it once. I could then work through the sadness and grief.

In contrast, this ADHD flare with the ongoing melodrama just keeps going and going like an evil Energizer bunny.

The Strattera is continuing to help her and her behavior is normalizing, and I'm glad for her. We still can't have any conversation without triggering ADHD overload in 5 minutes. Even though I have done a lot to help myself and I'm better than a few weeks ago, I'm still a lot more frustrated and irritated that I want to be. I am so tired of having to emotionally tiptoe around every little thing in her life. Right now I feel like it isn't enough anymore for her to normalize, I want more out of my life.

Me too Art (want more) but I

Submitted by LRHG on Sat, 05/27/2017 - 11:49

Me too Art (want more) but I'm filled with guilt. I've done the budgeting, know what I can afford but can't take the next step.

I empathize.

Submitted by ArtGamer on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 20:11

I empathize.

I would like to think that if I got everything lined up, that I would make what is clearly the best choice for me and move on. Some days those thoughts and imagining that life are what keep me going.

But realistically, I don't know what will happen if I get to where you are. Maybe I will stick around, maybe not.

This extended holiday weekend is tough. We're not arguing, which is an improvement, but it still is far from good. If I had somewhere to go, I would be somewhere else. Even going out for a meal by myself emphasizes how much nicer my life is without her, even for only a few hours. It's like a burden is lifted. But getting out of the house isn't enough because I have to come back.

It was the hope that things could get better that I held onto for all of those years, that hope kept me going, thinking we could fix problems and one day we would get there. Now I see that I was mistaken. I see the futility. We have that nice life, we made it happen. Only she's a broken record, unable to be happy, unable to see the good life around her, unable to see beyond the struggle within herself, that struggle within her own mind and emotions.

What has really surprised me is that I no longer imagine a happy life together with anyone. My "new and improved" life includes pets and spending time occasionally with friends, but I don't want to clean up after anyone else again, fix the things they break, do any of it. I imagine the happiness of not being interfered with and not being taken for granted. Life is amazing and I don't take it for granted. I think we all deserve the opportunity to appreciate it.

Truth

Submitted by adhd32 on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 16:03

I worked with lot of women and we used to talk about everything. I used to say that I could totally understand why my Grandmothers, who became widows in their 50s, never married again. Close friends with separate homes? Maybe, but only if our lives are not entwined and I didn't have to RELY on them. After doing 95% of the household and child rearing tasks for 35 years I am not interested in doing it again. After never being able to rely on H to do what he says, be where he is supposed to be, count on him having my back, or think about anything further than 15 minutes into the future I do not think I would ever allow myself to be so vulnerable ever again.

We once met a couple while we were traveling on a tour and we became friendly for the 2 weeks we traveled together. The husband made some off handed comment about marriage and I said "I would NEVER get married again". He pointed out that one never knows what life brings and someday the circumstances could turn and I could find myself alone. Wouldn't I want a companion? I reiterated that I would never get married again. His conclusion was I didn't want to marry again because my husband was so great that no one could compare!! I just smiled and let him think I thought my husband was the greatest thing on earth. If he only knew!

Rules, the big threat that shouldn't be

Submitted by ArtGamer on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 08:35

A huge source or resentment and belligerence appears to be one simple word and concept: rules.

Here's a simple example.

General human decency (a set of thousands of rules) dictates that if we are running excessively late to an appointment, date, whatever we contact the person(s) waiting at the other end so they can make other arrangements. If we are unable to do that, we later contact the person(s) to apologize, reschedule, "make amends," whatever. Most reasonable people will accept an apology, rescheduling, and the attempt at making it up to them.
Behaviors like this are considered manners, etiquette, any number of things, but it all boils down to being a "social rule." It is something we strive to do in a functioning society. It is part of communication and shows respect and consideration for those around us. Breaking this "social rule" communicates the opposite.

Now, we all have millions of rules that we follow every day to be functioning humans in civilization and culture. Everything has rules. The languages we use to communicate are structured with rules. Driving is rules. Using a toilet is rules. Everything is.

Yet for reasons I have yet to understand, many of our ADHD spouses get belligerent about rules in our relationships and households. These rules they get angry about are not special, they are general rules about how interact constructively with all other humans without beating each other with clubs.

My wife bristles at the idea of "rules" and gets agitated. But she is willing to follow millions of other rules in daily life without anger, like wearing clothes or putting gas in the car.

I asked her why she got angry about following simple rules about human interactions with me and in our household. I pointed out that she doesn't walk around naked in public, which is a social rule, and she doesn't get angry about that. She doesn't drink water out of the toilet or poop in the corner of the bedroom, and it doesn't make her angry not to do those things. So why is she angry about being a decent person to me in our relationship? Why blame me for rules that we all have to live by?

She thought about this and eventually agreed that this was something else, not just ADHD. She agreed there was no reason to be so freaking mean and difficult to me specifically and to reject the "rules" of decent behavior.

And within the next hour, for the first time in months, she actually started behaving decently again. She clearly still has ADHD with the clinical symptoms of distraction and everything else, but the misdirected anger at me lifted. And it lasted not just through last night, but she even woke up not acting like a troll.

Now, I don't expect this to last. But perhaps there is something here, some concept that can be expanded to help our ADHD spouses remember that we are not the problem. We are their friends, their support, their partners. Most of the time, we don't even criticize them, that's all in their own heads. Somehow we have to deactivate the belligerence and anger they invent about us, the only people that have their backs and have stuck with them.

I can live with most of the "clinical" ADHD behaviors. What I will never accept is the excessive negativity and emotional abuse. It is likely that many of our ADHD spouses learned these negative behaviors long before we were in their lives, but it is something that has to be defused and deactivated for the possibility of a positive, caring, supportive, and productive relationship for both.

Many children suffer from ODD

Submitted by Hopeful Heart on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 10:58

Many children suffer from ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) in conjunction with their ADHD. ODD is a condition that causes them to hate authority and hate rules. Some of these kids have trouble with all authority and rules. Some kids only have problems at home. Our 17 year old son has ADHD and ODD. He behaves quite well at school, work, church, camps, etc., but he has been discontent and miserable at home every day of his life. All day, every day is filled with adversity and chaos. He has been a teenager and a toddler to the extreme all wrapped up into one for his entire life. It has been an emotionally, physically, and mentally exhausting experience. It was compounded by the fact that for the first 15 years of his life my husband refused to acknowledge that there was a problem. I was our sons primary caregiver and I was the main target for his defiance, adversity, and chaos.

We recently figured out (with the help of a book) that he was using "chaos" as a drug. He was using it as a stimulant the way some people use adderall or coffee. We learned that it was possible to break him of the "chaos" habit by removing his ability to create chaos. Basically, we would have to detox him from his drug of choice. It was very difficult to achieve this in our family home because there were too many distractions and too many people. My husband and my son moved out of our family home and into a farm house in the country. First, my son was stripped of all electronics (no phone, no tv, no computer, no internet, no video games). He had weights and a heavy bag and the great outdoors for entertainment. Second, my son was required to take care of himself. He had to wash his own clothes, wash his own dishes, clean the house, etc. Lastly, when he tried to be defiant and create chaos, my husband refused to react and completely ignored him. All of these things were much easier to achieve in a very basic and simple setting with only two people. It was difficult and stressful for my husband. Much of the time my husband lived in a dirty house with piles of dirty clothes and dishes because my son refused to follow the rules. But, my husband never lost his cool and never gave him the reaction that he was looking for. My son wasn't allowed to go anywhere or do any activities until he followed the rules, which was very rarely. After three months, my husband got shingles (stress). At that point we abandoned the "experiment" and they returned to our family home. They have been back for about a month now and shockingly, my son is like a new person. He is calm, mature, and cooperative. The change is nothing short of miraculous. He even said to me just a few days after they returned, "I feel like I'm out of my miserable stage." I don't think he really understands the extent to how miserable he really was.

Some kids outgrow ODD. If it persists into adulthood it is referred to as anti social personality disorder.

A person creating chaos for others as a means to calm himself is such an odd idea. But, if you understand the adhd mind, it kind of makes sense.

I don't know if this applies to your wife's behaviors in your home. It sounded very similar the way you described her refusing to acknowledge rules and social norms. I hope this gives you a little bit of insight.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Submitted by ArtGamer on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 11:52

Thanks, that makes sense.

Hopeful and Art, great posts

Submitted by dedelight4 on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 12:30

Hopeful, this was very insightful, that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. It makes so much sense. I think my husband also, learned his ODD early on, and he too hates to follow rules and authority, but seem to quickly be oppositional with me, even though he's been better just lately. I wish I could talk to him about this openly, without him getting "oppositional" about it. The example of what you wrote about your son was brilliant, and I know it was HARD EARNED, but kudos to all of you for this. I am amazed and inspired by your example. And, ArtGamer, you also add so much to these forums. thanks.

Right on the Nose!

Submitted by ebecoat01 on Fri, 06/02/2017 - 16:16

This is exactly what my son does. I mean down to the T! Everyday he creates chaos no matter what the situation. Like you said hes waiting for me to respond to him and blow up. I use to blow up but then I got tired of stressing myself out. So now i ignore him. The more I ignored him the more he tries to start with someone else. For the most part I have tried to do everything you did but because my wife is ADHD ; I tell him he cant go she says he can go. I take way, she gives it back. I'm in a constant struggle with him and her. I still dont know how to handle the situation to be honest because his mother refuses to go get him the help he needs because shes stuck on him going to the military and not being able to get in with ADHD or ODD or anything they diagnose him with having.

Oh! I forgot to mention this kid hasn't even been diagnosed with anything but it runs in their entire family its so easy to spot that he has it now. So my thing to my wife is are you worried about his health or his career? To me she's more worried about his career while I'm more worried about health. I truly believe hes going to get hurt out here because of his mouth and to him everything is a joke when people are serious and not laughing. At 17 years old and he turns 18 Yrs old in August I'm telling him as a man a lot 18 year olds dont play these games that your playing and you need to grow up sooner than later. He's very immature and just doesn't seem to grasp the concept of what hes doing wrong when so many people tell him. Challenging authority! He'll never make it in the military if he gets in.

Alcohol vs. Strattera

Submitted by ArtGamer on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 06:23

So it appeared the Strattera was slowly working. As we're starting the 4th week there has been recognizable progress with those extremes starting to lighten in my wife's ADHD. She wasn't back to normal levels, but we were at least able to be in the same room together once in a while.

That is, until now. Unknown to me, when she got home last night she drank 2 margaritas. This morning she woke with a stomach ache and the full on ADHD is back. We spoke briefly to say good morning to each other, then she went full tilt. It took a few minutes for me to realize was happening because I was confused, but once I figured out the ADHD was off the charts I completely disengaged and just stood there while she continued. After a few more minutes of rambling on tangents from tangents, she said it was too much input, blamed me for talking to her at all, told me to tell her it everything was OK and that I loved her, blamed me again for talking to her in the morning, again told me there was too much input, told me to tell her that I loved her again, and stomped off to the kitchen.

She knows that alcohol doesn't go with Strattera, it's clearly labeled. She brought that up herself a few weeks ago when she started taking it.

It concerns me that she would choose to do something so self-defeating in the face of progress. It isn't like she drinks often or regularly, this was some impulse. Because she isn't supposed to drink while on Strattera, that probably challenged and trigger her oppositional defiant streak.

And with the bonkers conversation and behavior this morning, I'm concerned about her. But I have to keep all of that to myself because showing any concern will be misinterpreted and only make things worse.

It's another mark in the futility column.

Alas

Submitted by ArtGamer on Fri, 06/02/2017 - 19:07

Last night I was tackling chores and I hit some kind of wall in my mind. And I realized that I simply can't struggle with this relationship anymore.

Basically, it's pretty simple. A relationship takes 2 people. It doesn't matter what the intentions or reasons are, if both people can't or won't behave in a manner that sustains and supports a relationship, it can't exist.

So yep, I'm pretty much giving up. This version of my wife is incapable of cooperating on any level, for her own benefit or mine. It doesn't matter that she can't help it and her brain is muddling everything. The only relationship possible with this person right now is a negative, emotionally abusive one. I refuse to participate in that both for myself and her.

I'm going to get my ducks in a row. I never went on disability from my health problems because I figured out how to run my own business from home on my own time when health allowed, but that has been impossible over the last several months because of the chaos. Since it is clear I can no longer earn anything in this chaotic environment, I'm going to stop struggling with that and abandon it. Getting disability is going to take some time, but I need time anyway to line everything else up.

Chances are that she will stabilize and our life, our relationship will return before I get everything taken care of. But I now see how impossibly destructive these cycles are. I simply can't go through this again in 4 years. Even if I decide to hang around if and when she recovers, I need to not be in this situation again.

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