Goading | ADHD and Marriage

This May Provide the Answer......

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 09:41

you were looking for? I mentioned this once before, about waiting until someone is angry before you do what they ask of you for someone with ADHD. I was chronic in this area as a child which, taking this into account now......I am a lot more compassionate towards my parents behavior of me than I use to be (considering my under-awareness at the time.......clueless, might be more accurate in common vernacular!! ha ha) Anyway, I just ran across this article on the ADDitude website and this memory registered with me.

It is easy to forget everything in your child hood plus....taking into account that you learn to manage your ADHD symptoms better as you grow older whether you know you have it or not. I've been taking this into account more and more lately in looking for clues about my ADHD ( which type I have ) which I'm getting closer and closer in doing lately. Playing devils advocate with myself has really been useful in doing this. The problem (understandably so) is that you are approaching us symptomatically....this can get really tricky and even disastrous at times when you are sure you know what you are seeing and the reason for it.....many times, the reasons can be just the opposite of what you think.

I know this because.........I've been approaching myself symptomatically all my life and have made the exact same mistake and the assumptions that go along with it. I've come to learn for myself....just how wrong I was!

Anyway, this brief article I think will give you the answer. "Goading" would fall under the same category as a means to create... or to get a stimulating reaction out of other people. In my case as a child (and even after having controlled this aspect down under the radar as an adult...and saying (not so much my issue)... but many ADHDer's can get addicted to craving stimulation.

If you think about addictions....they all start somewhere? I'm definitely drawn or even compelled at times to do things that are stimulating but my ability to shut this off before addiction has thankfully been functioning well enough to stop before it gets to that level...that still doesn't mean that the compulsion does not exist down in there somewhere right? That's the devils advocate talking and I think second guessing your self will work for you just as well at it does for me in this case......at the very least....... so you don't go running too far down the road in thinking (or feeling) you know (or feel) the same as I've done most of my life....approaching ADHD symptomatically as the only means to finding answers as to "WHY"?

I believe at this point....this is sound advise that I will stand on:)

link:http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/10858.html

Thanks

Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 10:38

That looks really useful and makes total sense. Again paired with the lack of awareness of how he functions/impacts on others it is difficult to change. What made you aware of it, being that it fulfilled a need and what did you replace it with?

Cumpulsions Aren't Needs Hysterical37

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 13:30

They exist on a more "primitive" level.....sub-emotional? They're are kind of the "well spring" or source below stress and emotion if you will? The driver of your car so to speak. It's what I've been trying to do....identifying the source. In my thinking......if you get to the bottom of behavior...there has to be a source, logic kind of dictates that if you understand my meaning? I'm sure there is a neurologic explanation to this, but at that point....the only thing that can remedy that are meds? Way out of my league to answer that. I'll just leave that to the professionals and hope they get it right......a little blind faith and experimentation ya know?

But specifically, I've still been trying to identify my sub-type of ADHD. I've thought I figured it out several times but I was still left that funny feeling that I still hadn't pin pointed it yet. I went back to take another online test about my sub-type,.... thinking, I would try it several times under different moods or anxiety levels to establish a better baseline. The result were really telling...and this time I think it is much closer to being accurate.

Anyway, the lowest common denominator proved to be "anxiety" which was no surprise. What was throwing me off were my emotions in the moment....that is.....in the moment of taking each test. (also what I already said about the devils advocate thing...Occams Razor.....second guessing yourself and not overlooking the obvious. The obvious in this case is anxiety but it's less obvious on an emotional level if you can understand that?

It occurred to me that if emotions were the thing causing this error in the test....I had to look beneath them to find the answer since I can't really separate myself completely from my emotions. That's what the tests did for me.....it gave me the answer and I had to follow my emotions in that direction to get to it that way. Working backwards from the answer to the problem and following the trail? I can't help this....it's just how my brain works and it's always been this way ever since I was a little kid so I just used it this time to my advantage this time.....use what ya got, know what I mean? But, it always seemed to get me by even though it has it's disadvantages too. Too much curiosity killed the cat. I have to keep reminding myself of this....a lot!!! Oh well?

Anyway....I already had an understanding about OCD and the fundamental dynamics of it and just applied that to this....it does appear to share the same dynamic process but at this point.....I'm not going to say that the last comment is 100% accurate because I don't know that as fact. I do know.that it doesn't matter at this point and I can just pick up my own personal search with the data that's already out there and hope that it's right. I'm feeling pretty confident that it is in this case and can leave it at that.

At this point...I can just defer myself to any of the different programs for treating my specific type of ADHD and go from there. I still see my therapist who is great for some specific parts of this but as I have come to understand....he has a place in this process but I still need help in the other areas too that are more specific to just ADHD. That's the concept:)

But that's why when I read that article I went ,,,,"mmmmm....sounds like me as a kid. HOLY COW dear Whatson....I think you've found it!" lol It's too easy not to discount all the progress you've made as an adult and forget......you're still just that same kid in a sense but hopefully, only smarter. Unfortunately sometimes.....smarter than you think for your own good:) (self awareness)

To answer what did I replaced it with is "nothing" except being aware of it and practicing self control.....over and over and over! lol That's the problem with compulsions. What we do as a species is replace things with other things. In this case, it's thing like alcohol,drugs, sex, food, hoarding etc (sounds like a party to me! ha ha).....Lots of failed attempts but each time the interval (time lapse) between the input and the response just gets shorter and shorter. I've already discovered in other areas that eventually....the interval times reaches 0 ...and at that point.....you're in the driver seat not the compulsions. Yay!!

Better to apply a little humility at the end of the day and just accept that you're still just that same kid only in a bigger body sometimes and leave it at that whether you like the sound it or not!! :)

This behavior isn't that uncommon for males...

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 18:51

The macho group!..LOL...Many boy children grow up being told...Real men don't cry...So that sticks!...You don't hear it as often these days...Thankfully!...If it was true I couldn't watch Little house on the Prairie any more...:).

If your husband truly feels this way, it makes sense he would try and avoid things that stimulate emotion (i.e., expressing real feelings) and his making fun of it may also just be his protection from his discomfort, it's his self protection.....Just a thought

When I was growing up I attributed crying or showing emotions as a weakness and not being a strong man:(

Indeed C

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 09:31

Especially...WWII era men. If you think about it.....it makes a lot of sense from that perspective. Unfortunately....as taught (to be this way)....was already passe yet.......during my childhood, I remember distinctly......reading the headlines as a child...."Body Count Rises to 10,000 Dead in Viet Nam". I remember very much believing....that was going to be me while I was growing up. I was pretty much told I was going when I was old enough and there was no choice in the matter. Pretty sobering for a 10 year old. Crying was not allowed if you were going to go kill people.

Clarification and Explanation C

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 05/15/2015 - 23:02

Hi C,

Something resonated with me that brought me back to this since because it's relevant to what I'm working on for myself. The word "Macho" and my own explanation of it and the reasons for it. I think the term "Macho" has taken on a negative connotation in common vernacular because it is being used incorrectly.

I mentioned it was taught but that was not accurate. It is learned but for a specific reason....specific to competition, performance or being put in life threatening situations as a means to bolster self confidence in the moment. It's a false bravado used on the playing field, battle field or any where you face an enemy or competitor as a means to posture and put on a facade of self confidence and not to show weakness for that specific reason. But there is another reason to be this way at times that applies the same specific applications. The term "be the ball" is used as a means to become the role or part you are to perform. By acting the part or role....you become that person and step out of yourself in situations where a critical mistake or hesitation from fear might cost you your life or the game in a competitive sense.

I incorporated this lingo into my vocabulary from years of being put into these situations and being around other men that do the same things. I actually discovered the down side to this here on this forum when I first went back and reread my post here. When ever I'm challenged or feel threatened in a competitive sense....it slip out from years of habit but, it really is not an effective way to speak unless you are in the those specific situations I mentioned. By itself....it rolls off my tongue without thinking about.

In reality....men or women who are truly "Macho" may speak in these terms....but to see them or meet them on the street...someone who truly is this way is almost always understated and the least likely person you would ever think that would be this way because they don't need to flaunt it. To the point...all go and no show and they don't need to prove it to anyone. That's Macho. That's part of the persona even when competing not the other way around....done with intention.

But if you see a man (or boy) who is acting the part in public or plays this role all the time....he is not Macho and this is an embarrassment. In "Macho" lingo....he is referred to as a "Poser." A "Poser" is the guy who goes out and buys the showiest gear, flashiest outfit and struts around and draws attention to himself. This is not only unattractive...but macho guys look down on guys like this to be made fun of. No real Macho man would be caught dead pretending to be this way. Unfortunately...these guys also adopt the lingo too which is where the negative connotation comes from.....which is why when I read my posts, I went uh oh....this is not good! Habit lets this slip out more than I realize....but It was interesting to see how it would come out automatically when I'm feeling competitive by default. It was really telling to see this and since then, it's been something I have been working on to replace it with different terms.

The best example of someone I think is truly Macho ......is a guy I ride motorcycles with. He weighs around 300lbs and is the spitting image of Santa Claus since his hair is completely white...beard and all. In fact, he works as a US Postal deliverer and every December...he wheres a Santa hat while making his rounds. He is the most unassuming guy you could ever meet....but when he races his motorcycle....he is transformed into another person and becomes one with his machine. It's poetry in motion at 150 miles and hour. In this situation.....that's Macho! All go and no show..."now that's what I'm talk'in about!" oops, there I go again:) It has it's place:)

PS...and I wouldn't be surprised if he watched Little House on the Prairie too:)

ADHD husband did this a lot when younger

Submitted by dedelight4 on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 23:06

My ADHD husband did this a lot (goading) when he was younger, and so did his family. None of them would tell each other how they truly FELT about ANYTHING, except if it was anger. But, then the anger came out every which ways possible, except a way to solve an issue. I'm sure my husband's mother was ADHD or bi-polar, or both. My husband's older brother was bipolar and schizophrenic, and his sister was an alcoholic, but also bi-polar but undiagnosed.

My husband used goading as a way for stimulation like J. said. He would also start a back and forth arguement with someone online, just to get a reaction out of someone. But, when they would get angry and say something he really didn't like, he would end it, acting like it was all THEIR fault, when he was the one who started the entire altercation. I'm glad he doesn't do that as much anymore, because it really got to me at at times. I DIDN'T KNOW that it was for mental stimulation, but since learning more about ADHD, I've seen it play out in his actions. A year ago, I saw him tear into our daughter and son in law and yell at them something fierce, and afterwards, he thought everyone was GREAT. He felt FINE. But, our daughter and son in law were devastated by his actions and words, but my husband was astonished and even ANGRY that they were hurt and didn't understand WHAT he was talking about. He is doing much better now, but he STILL needs to learn WHY he does certain actions, like trying to get stimulation for his BRAIN.

Yes Dede..You are Exactly Right

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 08:38

Your husband's behavior is a good case in point. And not just with goading either....he ( and even you just so you can recognize it....as a possible means to point it out to him if that's possible in you relationship...saying....IF he's receptive. If he's not....that's a different story, back to square one and the same story everyone is facing....defensiveness, projection and stone walling ) That is really what needs to happen in order for him to do what I'm doing or he'll never be able to stop doing it.....like I was saying....it really is unconscious for us when it's happening. No intention but no excuse either for bad behavior.

I think anytime you feel like he is inciting some kind of negative emotions in you ( saying not always for sure, but it is one to watch for and be able to recognize.....we're irritating all the time but this is more specific! ha ha) to possible tell the difference is when it feels like there is just no way this could not be unintentional....I'd ask myself if this is not exactly what he is doing? Your definitely right in the two examples you gave. What's interesting is that I'm not aggressive (overt) like your your husband in that sense (confrontational)....I avoid confrontation like the plague. But...I'm a master at being passive aggressive in doing the exact same thing......just a different style but equally frustrating for other people.......which is, exactly to the point either way.

A possible example of your husband and I...doing our "thang". (of this dynamic)

"Oh...I was JUST kidding ( or just F&*king with you ). "Why? Don't you have anything better to do?.... go darken someone else's door" are exactly the words I've used myself at times....in the sense of, just kidding back at them. Thinking about this now.....I think if you just left it at..."Why"....and stood there staring back at him in silence would be a more effective better response.(sans passive aggression)

Here's a Nugget for you (from the master ha ha) to use some time if you can pull this off (everyone who knows me... knows I'm a smart ass.... too the point :) I've said to certain people in the moment ...." did you also wet the bed, start fires and torture small animals as a child? "....basically, asking them if they are a psychopath in more words. lol That one is usually pretty good for getting a "deer in the head lights" reaction from people and they will usually just walk away with the gears turning and a blank expression on their face. Especially effective with derelict strangers who are hassling you for no reason. It's pretty effective to just stop everything cold in it's tracks and passive aggression at it's best.....as defense in those moments, it can have it's place:)

Unfortunately....I have more of these than I care to admit:) Funny, and not so funny at different times especially with my wife. I've begun to see this too and am working on it as well. A time and place for everything! More awareness:)

FYI: In the big picture stepping back from this in light of my comments as a child......this was our family dynamic and where I learned to be this way...all things considered here....on both sides....this is where it starts and how it continues later as an adult. Also remembering something my therapist said to me once....."all families are weird...not just yours." Case in point.

Affection

Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 09:05

I actually think it's his way of being affectionate or funny, he is telling you in a roundabout way how he feels, he avoids rejection by beating around the bush because a direct response to a direct question would be more painful. However I discovered that rejection is exactly what this lack of genuiness incites. I wish it were not the case, as I need to remind myself authenticity is hard and sometimes it is compromised in an attempt to be more social and accepted but it achieves the opposite. The culprit is vulnerability and trust, trouble is my OH has issues with ritual which mean that his formative relationships dictate how he behaves with others and my behaviour can sometimes make no difference. It's almost as though he has no ability to learn new social rules and he applies things to me as if he is responding to someone who has behaved differently in the past. i.e. I never hurry him yet when he runs late he shouts 'there now' every thirty seconds down the stairs as if that is what I'm doing, it's like he assumes that everyone is exactly the same and treats them the same way with what they are actually saying or doing therefore being rendered almost irrelevant.

Yes Hysterical37

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 12:24

He's ready to be defensive.....he (projecting) predicting the worst for the future based on the past.....not even necessarily YOUR past together even though.....his radar is so finely tuned from the past to pick up every nuance of your behavior that he reads things into them that are most likely innocuous most of the time to start with (in the beginning of your relationship) The more complaints he hears.....the higher this percentage goes up. This ratio has a direct 1 to 1 correlation and along with it......his stress and anxiety. However, the relationship between these two things ramps up exponentially once the first relationship hits a certain point. Using myself here, after the first one hits about 60-70%. At 80% is where I start to lose it....that is, lose control of my emotions and my anger. The longer I'm in that zone....the lower my tolerance becomes. This is when the first relationship actually starts to drop becoming inverse. Which means now 60-70% is more like 30-40% compared to before. My tolerance has now effectively dropped to a lower base line, where before on the way up.......I was still in control. If this makes sense?

I think this is a really good example how anxiety works .......the ability to manage stress is directly proportional to the number of inputs and the length of time you can manage them and then become inverse after a certain point. Another way to say this is.....your capacities become compromised and diminished over time and the longer you are together. This is what you are up against not him speaking objectively.

This could apply to anyone if you think about.......but the difference with someone with ADHD and everyone else is that.... simply operating on a day to day basis with NO external inputs from another person already creates a higher anxiety level (a lower base line of tolerance) to start with (we live closer to the ceiling even when things are good). That.....and our ability to process the negative input puts a higher tax on our system....... burning the candle at both ends......twice the light and half the time.

I think authentically put.....you could call this a phenomenon:) I'm smiling because of our previous conversations.....damn this is hard to do in the moment! lol

I've been trying to place emotional lability into my working understanding and I think....this might be the reason for it??? A sort of semi-educated guess? lol Melissa did say at one point that emotional lability should now be considered a core component of ADHD which is another way to describe this as I did....a phenomenon.

And you're are spot on about the vulnerability and trust. If you are already behind the 8 ball to start with....the last thing you want to do is to create attention and you're certainly are not going to speak directly with any complaints or negative feedback of your own into this situation out of fear that this will only make things worse.....in essence, you lose your voice or feel like you can't say anything. To be clear........this dynamic is not of your doing at all but.....it is good for you to understand it and read it correctly as a way to navigate around it better.

What it feels like is a pressure cooker building until it blows.......what you get is only the anger and resentment to it. "IT" is not you.....it is the feeling that's created by this dynamic is you can understand what I just said? I can sit here and tell you this now and understand it as well as I do for you here......but when it happens for me, there are still times I'm just barely able to catch it. You really have to become familiar enough with it to head this one off yourself and that's what takes practice and self control. I think there is a point (a stage in the process) that it's just too late even when you are aware of it. I've come to find that you have to catch it early or it will just take off with a mind of it's own.

The problem that comes into this is where our anger is not different than your's......saying, everyone is entitled to feel anger when it is appropriate and that is not exclusive to ADHD or even the reasons for it. (when being disrespected for example) I think most people would feel angry if they felt disrespected. The issue at hand is that this dynamic is externalized disproportionally and way out of scale to the situation. That's what stand out and along with it.......invalidation of the anger itself. That really is key here if you can follow this train of thought.

Of course the simple answer would be just not to let your anger be greater than the situation in the first place and this wouldn't be a problem....or even better, addressing it before that in a perfect world but most of us don't do that either. So what we are saddled with is trying to reign it in and keep it in line with you and what would be considered appropriate. Following along.....without awareness, you are either getting blamed in the worse case scenario.....or taking the brunt of it and still not seeing this for what it is.

At it's best...even when you know and can explain it to you and reduce it down to only the rarest of times under extreme stress ( best case in our ability to control it) it's still little consolation for you because now.....you are predisposed yourself to the same dynamic happening with you. Take yourself now, and plug yourself into this at the beginning of my explanation. OUCH!!

Thinking strategically.....you can head this off at the pass. (or in the moors) which ever you prefer :) It will also help as a reminder to him to be mindful of this too. A much better alternative don't you think?

In the immortal words of John Lennon "....I hope I passed the audition." (singular version) ha ha

Reading into stuff

Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 12:34

Yeah definitely but I think he is a bit autistic as well so he cannot read or misread emotions. He sees concentration as anger and anger as a lack of emotion. We were on the phone and he replied to what he thought he heard and I raised my voice to get his attention and he said I was angry and then when I said I wasn't he kept repeating it. Disproportionate to the situation exactly, comes across as not being able to cope. I'm always heading stuff off at the pass but I end up being direct as nothing else works and that comes with its own issues as you know, his statement 'I know I'm a fuckup' says it all.

Yep Only One Cure Here

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 13:27

He's got to become aware of this for himself. I really don't think I could have done this alone....in fact....no way. Also.....your not the one to do it. It won't work....trust me on this one. I know because I've tried from the other side. One important item in what you just said.....and I know this one myself for perhaps a different reason. Saying....you could be right about being a bit autistic in your thinking? No way for me to know that either but.....one thing that I know all too well and my wife even made a mention of this the other day only confirming what I know. Thinking here how to word this because...it's a tough concept to understand.....

As you see it..... he is a bit autistic as well so he cannot read or misread emotions. This is a fair assumption from your understanding of autism...the information you gathered to form this assumption and apply it to what you are seeing. You've also learned how to read people by your experiences with everyone else so you are predisposed in your thinking that your own perceptions are working correctly which is probably true. Cognitively...you understand this and it makes sense to you.....

But picture the Moon when it is low on the horizon and looks bigger. Did the Moon grow in size? The is a conflict between your senses and what you know as fact. Are your senses wrong or what you know it wrong? In this case....it is neither. You are right and therefore...will tend to be self righteous if told that this is not true...because you know that it is.

What's wrong is your perception in this case. Your eyes are placing the Moon and the horizon in relative terms together (in relationship to one another ) and coming up with what you see. No matter how much you understand this.....the Moon still looks bigger? You cannot change what your perceptions are telling you even when you know what your eyes are telling you is wrong.

For me to go into this in detail would require a lengthy answer so I will just say here for now. It's more likely that he does have the ability to read emotions but for him....what he sees is being filtered in relationship to you and his emotions themselves. ( like the Moon and the horizon as to you and him/other people ) The ability is there....it is just being fooled by his perceptions. If you change the relationship itself, his perceptions will change along with it. It can change because the ability is there and working correctly. I can tell you I know this as fact for me and I can also tell when people make the wrong assumption as well. I would error on the cautious side of this thinking because this can be extremely frustrating when people are sure what they are seeing is true when it's not and we know it. On the other side... we begin feeling dismissed. No one likes to feel dismissed and you yourself are going to act according when you feel this way.

The Positive Cure.....I Was Right at the Door

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 05/16/2015 - 10:36

Hi Hysterical37,

I had to come back here to tell you that in this case, my feelings were right. I really was right at the door in the things I said to you here in this reply and yesterday, with some help.....I walked right through that door myself and once I did I knew the answer almost immediately when it happened. These are the times I'm really thankful for taking those classes back in college and my memory is still functioning (after 35 years! lol ). My Moon analogy was one of these little nuggets that somehow made it through!

Yes.....this IS a difficult concept because it's so confusing when you are the one trying to apply it too yourself without someone else to guide you....I couldn't agree more with myself! ha ha

The answer here is......despite what your feelings are telling you, and despite all the anger and frustration you are feeling about your boyfriend right now, despite any problems you are having at work or anywhere else in your life. Change those negative thoughts into positive ones and your emotions will follow. If you can do this.....eventually your boyfriend will follow suit. In theory at least. Theory because it's been proven to work!

I've been immersed in negativity for so long that even after realizing it and knowing this is true......I still was too deep in it to see the forest to see how simple the solution can be. In this case.....my perceptions were wrong. The relationship that needed to be changed first was the one between my thought and my emotions....IN THAT ORDER! lol

And with that.....changing negative thoughts into positive ones and staying there as long as I can. It sounds easy but harder than it sound to do!

At the very least....you will be doing yourself a HUGE favor if you can try this and make it work!!!! The part about your boyfriend is where I bow out here.....that's where you will need some help. I won't begin to try to advise you on that!

I have to say that this has been my saving grace and I thank the almighty for giving me this ability throughout my life.....the ability in finding some way to be positive no matter what has happened to me! It really is my life force and I just confirmed this yesterday with that help I was talking about. I am so thankful for this!

At the end of the day, despite being that big strong guy with all my flaws.....I really am Pollyanna at heart. I got that from my mother. (real tears here:) If there is anything I can be thankful for....it is that one gift that she gave to me that I have never lost. thanks Mom:)

Now comes the hard part.....practicing it and trying to keep it that way! As Yoda said....."No try....Do"

And with that.....I can tell you the same thing. Take a break and clear your head and get yourself right! That is what you need to do right now and take care of yourself. I think I've been saying this all along except not hearing myself enough to put it into practice even when my wife's negatively was bringing me down. I'll be having this conversation with her directly or at least.....stating my intention each time I run up against this with her. As many times as it takes! This is one verbal intention that I don't need to process any more!!!!

And take it to the bank! lol

Update

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 05/16/2015 - 12:59

This morning.....my wife woke up and started the day as usual first things out of her mouth.....a complaint and then a demand. I answered her by saying....I struggling with trying to stay positive. Her immediate response was negative. So I stated it again. She responded by saying I was telling her that I was trying to tell her how to feel. (no no no....not this time) I stated it again....I'm saying.....I am struggling with staying positive and this has nothing to do with you, I'm just letting you so you know that this is what I'm struggling right now. (STOP) Click. Third times the charm! She changed her language and hasn't changed back since. What do you know? I expect I will have to do this again but......that's all I needed from her. I can take the rest from here.

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH EVERYONE!

What if your wife hadn't

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 05/16/2015 - 15:00

What if your wife hadn't changed her language? Because I think that's her right, isn't it? I'm the wife and mother. It became clear over the years that one of the unspoken house rules was that I was not allowed to express negative feelings. I was required to always be up. Everyone else was, however, allowed to express any feelings they desired. Sometimes this is called being the emotional thermostat for the relationship. It's very hard work.

Hi Rosered

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 05/16/2015 - 17:00

You bring up an interesting correlation here. My issue....stemming from the same situation you were, is not speaking up myself. That was the same expectation that my father had of our entire family just like your husband except, this applied to our whole family excepting of course him. He was more of a tyrant it seems in that way....objectively speaking. He was a good man and had many good qualities, but when it came to decisions and rules in the house...there was only one decider and that was him. Taking that quip from George W Bush...".I am the decider!" lol (who learned you George? ha ha) but I digress.....Only he was allowed to get angry or dissent or complain....everyone else was expected to pretend that everything was fine...no negatively....put a bow on it and call it a perfect day...or else!lol

Anyway....my personality is passive. If I'm angry....I'm passive aggressive. Instead of being externally emotional....I'm actually pretty unemotional and stoic, even rather quiet many times and keep things to myself. Believe it or not? You wouldn't know this by the amount of writing I do I know but.... that doesn't mean I'm not emotional....on the contrary. I would say I'm extremely emotional in my own way but I express it differently. I'm an artist if you remember me mentioning? Musically and through my work ..physically, but not outwardly expressive through emoting on my exterior. As a kid....you would have described me as "shy"....but more of that had to do with simply not being allowed to speak or express and emotions all when I was at home.....more like you it sound with your husband. Wanting to but not being allowed to? With my mom and sisters yes....but not when my Dad was around. We all learned to mind our peas and Q's and not make waves when he was around. Very oppressing.

So with that back ground in mind..... I'm not domineering at all and let a lot of things slide even when other people are irritating me....too a fault. That's my problem....not speaking up ENOUGH!

So if you can picture that my wife is the externally expressive one (more reactionary than expressive at times meaning...has a tendency to point out everything that wrong all the time every where she goes and not just with me....very fearful and anxious about things) and highly emotional at times and even somewhat volatile herself.....between the two of us...she can fill up a lot of space emotionally which leaves little for me at times....to the point that when I do.....she reacts at that too. Which is the problem we have been facing together even when I try and speak up and tell her that I'm drowning in her emotions and the problem being that the majority of them can be negative...when she's on a roll....100% negative for days on end and doesn't want to hear anything good or positive from anyone....kind of drowns in her sorrows if you can understand this. But... I give her a lot of slack too because of the work she does. She has to hear about and take care of a lot other peoples problems all day and quite frankly....she really is not suited very well to her job because of how much this affects her. She good at her job...but her job is not good for her if that makes sense?

But to the point......when she get's on a negative roll for whatever reason.....it's not reasonable for anyone to be around this for long extended periods of time and the effect it has on me ( or anyone?) has the net result of me to start losing my own perspective and start to join her.....to go down with her ship too?

When my tank runs dry of optimism and seeing the glass as half full ( the norm for me ).....I start running out or the ability to cope myself. She leans of me for staying positive and when I can't support her in this area we both start to suffer. I really am Pollyana believe this or not. When my grapes start to sour...the two of us start having problems together. That's just too much responsibility for one person to manage especially one with ADHD and is not reasonable for anyone for extended periods of time....like almost a year and a half straight without a break. I'm a reasonable man but that's just not reasonable.

But Rosered...in your case....I've read what you have to say about your husband and I'm just not him. If anything....I relate more to you in your case compared to most of the stories I've heard on this forum about their spouse with ADHD. If you picture your situation...not being allowed to have emotions or express them....and carry that over to me....not being allowed to be messy because of my wife anxiety issues ( a tendency to blame things for her problem with this....saying, seeing these things as the reason she is unhappy) you might get a better idea of my situation at home.

I'm not responsible for my wife happiness...she has to do that for herself. But before I could be the Pollyanna that she relied on for support in the past.....I had to first find the way in to reach her and turn the negative spiral in the other directions and this morning I just found the key to that door.

I've never had a problem staying positive until I reach my own breaking point because my cup is usually pretty full and even overflowing most of the time. Unfortunately....my wife's capacity is more limited than mine and struggles with being negative at times and is easily overwhelmed compared to many people I know and she will admit this too. For her, the anxiety is there in the first place and I know my messy habits contribute, but...they are not responsible for my wife's anxiety either. In the same way that I can't blame any anxiety this creates for me on her. It always takes two people to make a relationship.
Even if I kept a spotless house and did everything right.....that still isn't going to make my wife happy. I see the same thing in her mother but....my wife is a much more caring and loving person than she is and not domineering either. More anxious and fear driven which in her case....was a result of being raised by a mother who was like I described. I can have a lot of compassion for that taking my own situation in consideration.

"When my tank runs dry of

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 05/16/2015 - 17:14

"When my tank runs dry of optimism and seeing the glass as half full ( the norm for me ).....I start running out or the ability to cope myself. She leans of me for staying positive and when I can't support her in this area we both start to suffer. I really am Pollyana believe this or not. When my grapes start to sour...the two of us start having problems together. That's just too much responsibility for one person to manage especially one with ADHD and is not reasonable for anyone for extended periods of time....like almost a year and a half straight without a break. I'm a reasonable man but that's just not reasonable."

Yep. Thanks for putting this into words so well.

Cont. Thought Rosered

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 05/16/2015 - 19:09

For you now....I can see something similar to your situation (and your husband) with my wife that might give you some perspective that I will share with you....that is on the compassionate side that I have for my wife. This is the part where I must be patient with her because it's a difficult one for her to see in herself.

In my wife's childhood..her mother did not believe in herself enough in her own thinking that she needed a man to do this for her...she believed she needed a man to take control because of what she lacked in herself. The net effect of this on my wife was for her mother to become extremely controlling of her which impaired my wife ability to make decisions for herself. I suspect this was the case for my wife's mother as a child as well. When this happens to a person their balance gets thrown off and there ability to make good decisions get thrown off with it. You might say this another way and say she lacked good judgment and made a lot of bad or irresponsible decisions herself in rearing my wife. An interesting side note to this is that you would think that a person like her mom would not be very judgmental but just the reverse was the case. If you think about the scales of justice and a judge sitting on the bench.....a judgmental judge would be a poor judge if he lacked good judgment? Needless to say this would cause a child a great deal of stress and anxiety which is what my wife suffers from at times. On top of this....domineering and controlling parents tend not to relinquish control of their power since they have very little to give. This ends up with a mother and daughter in a "only one Queen per hive" scenario and the mother being jealous of their daughters. Instead of sharing their knowledge and power by teaching them how to do this later on....they are in competition with them and become stingy with in love or affection that is available in the household. The same holds true for men and their sons in the same scenario. This was my case too but my mother filled in the gaps as best she could in that department even though her ability for good judgment was usurped by my father in the same way. I had some other saving graces in my life too and my father traveled and worked a lot so his influence in this way was more limited. I also spent as much time as I could away from my Dad as possible and had other male role models to work from who were really great. None the less.....the dynamic was similar but in many ways worse for my wife. I can see this pretty easily so it is easy for me to understand my wife in this way.

But any time a parent or spouse take your right to have feelings or autonomy away from you....it will tend to make you angry which is why I can relate with your situation. with your husband as it was with my wifes mother and my father. It does tend to make you a little self righteous and feel like you are being persecuted. I know that was what happened to my father too. He had feelings of persecution all the time which made him miserly and stingy. Feeling he did not get his fair share as a kid and there was never going to be enough to go around for him at the end of the day. Growing up during the depression will do that to you.... A tendency to get a little hoardy with love and things if you know what I mean. The same thing when I got older too....the male version of the Queen Bee syndrome would be another dog marking his territory. He was definitely territorial and competitive.

These are the probelm areas I have to watch out for too but as it turns out.....I had enough healthy outlet to turn these into positive one too. So I can see in a sense...how I did it having come from a similar environment as my wife in respect to a domineering parent...but I had the advantage of still having a balance between a mother and father where my wife did not. That's where her ability to judge and make decisions get compromised compared to mine so she leans on me for these things and tend to get angry if left without me to do this for her.. A little needy and dependant. The last thing I want to do is try and fill this space for her for become co-depedant myself. I've already been down that road to a lesser degree but still have had this effect on my life before which skewed my decision making process and ability to judge things accurately. In a real way....this was what was beginning to happen when I got sick from exhaustion and watched how my thoughts would start to get distorted from where they usually would be. ADHD doesn't help in that department! But that is my wife's tendency not mine....to want to be taken care of more and gets angry if she has do to things for me. i mentioned that I'm pretty self sufficient so I don't need anyone to take care of me. But in my wifes mind at times.....even doing anything on my account can seem to her out of scale. Like I said.....if the scales of justice in her head get weighted too fat in one direction....her ability to judge or make good judgements can get distorted in her favor. In her favor thinking she doing more for me than she thinks. Kind of like my father feeling persecuted and not getting his fair share. It's funny how that works. You would think it would be just the opposite instead? just like my Moon anaolgy....perceptions can really throw things off!!

Fixer

Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on Sun, 05/17/2015 - 03:20

Hi, Just reflecting to you that you are coming across as a fixer with a high need to be accepted and please people. My OH is the same it causes massive issues around genuineness and real connection in our relationship. Is the real you, so bad that you cannot share it? I doubt it.

You Hit the Jackpot....Good Call!! Hysterical37

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 05/17/2015 - 12:05

I am a fixer who is very aware of it but possibly not entirely in the context of what you might think? Maybe? But I believe I understand it in the way you are telling me...relationally that is? There was a time in my past (years ago now)....I was not aware of this at all.

But, instead of telling you.....I can show you by demonstrating it. My therapist likes to use a good analogy about sub-conscious imbalances that "pull" or "lead" us in the opposite directions of our thoughts and where we want to go on a conscious level like I am describing (scales in judgment, obsessions, compensating behaviors etc)... getting "led by the nose... like the ring in a bulls nose."

I like this image thinking about this huge 1 ton beast being so easily controlled and led by a human who is a fraction of the size and physical strength. The ability to do this comes down to a tiny brass ring. In this analogy....being led by the brass ring is the key .

This is why I love words so much if you really stop to look them up. For fun here, I just looked up the word led/past participle after I just wrote this and look at all the different meanings that can arrive from just one simple word. Here's the definition of led used as a verb.

lead
lēd/
verb
verb: lead; 3rd person present: leads; past tense: led; past participle:

1.
cause (a person or animal) to go with one by holding them by the hand, a halter, a rope, etc., while moving forward.
"she emerged leading a bay horse"

show (someone or something) the way to a destination by going in front of or beside them.
"she stood up and led her friend to the door"

synonyms: guide, conduct, show, show the way, lead the way, usher, escort, steer, pilot, shepherd; More
accompany, see, take
"Michelle led them into the house"
be at the head of, be at the front of, head, spearhead;
precede
"he led a march to the city center"

antonyms: follow

be a reason or motive for (someone).
"nothing that I have read about the case leads me to the conclusion that anything untoward happened"

synonyms: cause, induce, prompt, move, persuade, influence, drive, condition, make; More
incline, dispose, predispose
"he led us to believe they were lying"

2.
be in charge or command of.
"a military delegation was led by the Chief of Staff"

synonyms: be the leader of, be the head of, preside over, head, command, govern, rule, be in charge of, be in command of, be in control of, run, control, direct, be at the helm of:

The corollaries that a person could make here are endless, but I find it fascinating how the word and spelling remain the same. What's even more interesting here is that in every case....no where is it implied by the references alone, that they come without proxy or elected authority.

And even within the antonyms (as stated but there is only one) Follow ......is there even one suggestion or implication that the power or authority has been by hostile take over, against will, or not given or made by choice. There is no negative connotation anywhere, even within the opposite of the led.

Taking this one step further, the definition of the word connotation as defined....

Connotation Definition

Connotation refers to a meaning that is implied by a word apart from the thing which it describes explicitly. Words carry cultural and emotional associations or meanings in addition to their literal meanings or denotations.

Now take..."emotional associations or meanings in addition to their literal meanings or denotations" and analyze that sentence for a moment.

Think about all the discussions made here on this forum about communication, emotional discussions with their partners, mis- communications. misunderstanding, reading things into conversations, authenticity, judgment, logic, emotion, taking things personally, connecting with another person, and of course lying.

If women tend to personalize things and be led by their emotions more than men....they would tend to speak from emotional associations or meanings in addition to their literal meaning or denotations.

If men tend to speak from logic in the same sense....they will tend to speak in terms of literal meaning and not from associations or denotations....no additional meanings within the language itself.

And if a person with ADHD has difficulty integrating emotion and logic together in the moment when they speak.....you will get either one or the other as the listener and confusion between these two at the same time together.

Yet when I listen to other people talk to me.....I have no difficulty hearing both emotion and logic at the same time in my ability to understand them in the moment. Where I really struggle with my wife for example.....is with her logic or in my perceived lack of it. There's one source for a negative in my ability to understand her. I hear and speak to her from logic first by default, unless we are speaking about emotions. I can talk about emotions...or I can talk about things.

Things are not emotions in my mind....things are unemotional and literal and I have no need for interpretation or translation since they have singular literal definitions that I do understand quite well. There is no need for expression or emotion when talking about things with my wife. And I don't confuse things with emotions when I speak either.

If I am expressing myself...that's different. Expressing myself requires emotions and the additional denotations ( emotional attachments) and that becomes more difficult in the moment....but I can hear another person expressing themselves in the moment and understand them quite well.

I've discovered by simply being inundated with these negative emotional attachments that it is really obvious to me that she has difficulty not including these into almost anything she says whether it be about an emotional topic between the two of us....or about even about things in general at times. This is confusing to me without question when I hear her speak. What I hear is emotion where there shouldn't be any? This is confusing. What I also hear is negativity that makes no logical sense at the same time? When I try and explain this to her...she gets angry! lol And this has been a battle ever since in our communications.

And as of yesterday.....I was at least able to get the negative part eliminated from her speech just so I could understand what she is saying. Without judgment or negativity on my part and with the only motivation on part to simply be able to understand her meaning without any implied associations involved at the same time.

Add tone and body language into this mess and you have a gigantic Cluster Fuck! I am entitled to one negative emotional expression here...am I not? LOL I have seen the light and the error in my ways:)

I know we have discussed authenticity before and I think this is a really good example of why this is so difficult to do at times. I also just demonstrated to you with intention of how I think and how my mind works. This is how I fix things.

And how I interpreted you in how you said "fixer".....I understood that too in context to my own understanding of it. And you are correct in that assumption. But I am a fixer in the literal sense without emotion involved too. I am both. One comes from an emotional dynamic or phenomenon from nurture...and the other one comes from nature and how my brain works. Both are true.....and hopefully, from this demonstration of how I take things apart, dissect things and put them back together in my head....you can now understand this too?

But before you knew this....you only had one understanding of the word "fixer" as you said it to me. And I also understood that you probably would not be able to understand how I see my own ability to fix things and figure them out unless I just demonstrated how I my mind works here in the moment.

Succinctly? This isn't how I talk in person (a tendency but not the amount and detail) to the point of not saying a lot at all at times or being even short.

That is....unless I have to process things too much in the moment, speaking emotionally or am creatively thinking and talking at the same time....that's when you would hear this from me when I speak but only then. Rarely with anyone but my wife or even here when I am processing and writing openly....in the completely unedited version as you are reading it...typos and all:) It is for your benefit as intended but....also for mine in that I use it to go back and read my thoughts too. Edited thoughts are less useful than the unedited ones if you can understand this. Normally when I write.....at least 1/2 of this would be missing in a final draft.

If I'm talking about things in general.....I'm short and sweet and to the point. Just like this.

So my question is for you.....in what context do you get this impression and make that assumption. (not questioning but literally am curious for my own use and benefit? And in context to your question of me, I got that you possibly thought I was not aware of any of this? Again...literally wanting to your thoughts on this too...again for my benefit in thinking? I'd appreciate it. I don't want to seed this and will share my thoughts after I hear what you have to say.

As it Happened in Real Time...Input Would be Welcomed

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 05/17/2015 - 14:22

My wife said.(not asked) "I would like it, if you to go the the store this morning." I heard "store, this morning, it" and no explanation as to why?

So...I asked "why do you need me to go this morning? When you asked me last night....I said I would go sometime today" She asked the same thing the day before...and the day before that. We also agreed that every Sunday is shopping day for food and has been already established. In my thinking and completely by-passing any implication that this was a form of reminder....no problem there. No offense or consequent defense on my part

Her response: "I'd like it if I didn't have to be making my lunch for tomorrow at 10:00pm tonight" (accusing sounding, negative and defensive..exaggerated as well)

I said " It would be really helpful to me if you start by saying why you want me to go to the store first because it tells me everything I need to know and my answer of course would most likely be yes, unless there is something else I'm not thinking about that would not make that possible? Even if there was something, I could arrange my schedule differently to accommodate you."

Knowing better now, I would likely to say in my past...."what is "IT" ? It I was really feeling generous in my response I would include "please tell me what "IT" is first and that will tell me everything I need to know." Saying nicely but I can see the seeds of sarcasm here too. This is in it's essence where one problem in our communication exists. All I need is the one bit of information that I don't know to make a decision.

Right off the bat....there is no need to explain her motivation to me. I see it clearly in this exchange in light of an ADHD discussion. But that's not where I have any issue or need advise here.

Before my wife and I ever lived together and shared a household. She chronically expresses her fears or concerns about the future...chronically....about what's about...or what might happen. Even if this is not negative....it is stating clearly to me...a problem that needs to be solved. "I'm worried about....... I'm afraid that........ I'm concerned if........." that is attached to something that "might" happen.

My response to her in the past is always in the form of an answer to the problem, a way to diffuse, a solution to heading off her concern.....a means to stop her fear." The fear isn't of the any of the things she thinks she's afraid of......The fear is about the future. After more than a year of hearing her concerns about things that aren't going to happen......being hit by lightening? I learned through countless arguments over her anger response to me when I tried in the past to "FIX" the problem....that this is what this is all about.

This is not about her talking about anything but her fear...but it comes out by means of predicting the worst before it happens. It is very negative and usually has negative attachments included within it. I'm also familiar with this in that my mother would do this too. Before you know it....everyone is coming to their aid in calming their fears which only makes them angry when you do this.

I don't enjoy talking about fear and what might happen. I also don't enjoy talking about what someone might do to you and here the elaborate convoluted conspiracy theories involved which only come out if you entertain them or ask why. It's depressing. It's negative and is not engaging interesting for anyone else but them. It dominates the conversation and all roads lead right back to the same lowest common denominator....FEAR.

But when confronted.....all you get back to this is either frustration or anger. From a caring aspect.....all you want for them is not to suffer from fear. You can smell it and feel it when you are with them and there is no way not to notice even if they will never admit this to you themselves. And I do now understand if I didn't before.....if asked, the answer is probably going to be," I don't know." Which means.....they don't or can't see it. I understand this now too.

I've seen this too many times in my life not to see this play out exactly the same for anyone who is like this. In my younger days....it was very irritating and my tolerance to it was low. "IT" by ITself, drove me nuts becuase in turn....'IT" made me anxious by being around "IT".

So now going back to the original situation again with my wife. If she had come to me and said "I'd like you to go the store before too late so I have time to prepare my lunch for tommorrow."....my answer in every and all cases would...."Okay...by what time would be good for you?" XXXX "Okay"

End of conversation.

And there is no end to this.....As there was for my mother and half a dozen other people I have known in my life who do the exact same thing before, during and after I am around them. My ADHD has nothing to do with this. "End of story."

This is how I talk in real life. "yes" "no" "okay" "good" "I like it" "I don't like that" "a little more" "a little less" "I'm hot" " I'm cold" " I need a shower"

I know what I want and what I don't want and I know when there is a problem. Ask me a question. "I'll give you a simple and direct answer and I don't have an intense need for self expression all day, everyday, all the time." I keep my tank full and have plenty of reserve and express my self with my art and in other outlets so I don't need to do it with other people much unless I'm engaged with them. If I'm upset or angry...you will rarely hear about until....that person starts to blame or accuse me of making them that way. People make me angry or irritated all the time.....I just don't have a need to express or share that with them....my fears included but, if I am anxious and fearful....I do the same things that my wife does but the difference is....if asked why....I usually can tell you the answer to this in that moment in elaborate hyper focus detail as you have seen me do countless times here in the forum. I do the same thing when problem solving but the difference there is....

I don't share it with everyone except here....that's what you see. Do I see this and am aware of this too. Without question. This is how I problem solve. What makes it even more challenging is to try and problem solve and think about the other person at the same time when writing and posting on the forum here. Part of this comes from not texting, not writing many emails to people and not doing anything like Facebook, Twitter or communicating by writing to anyone ever at all. I just don't do it on any regular basis and at times....never.

And in light of this....I can say I have come to learn this part from doing this here and arriving at answers at the same time and exercising my thinking process all at the same time.....included here of course...is expressing myself but, I have many other ways to get my needs met in that department and I'm not needy there either. Just so you know.

In real time as it happened. Any thoughts?

It's easier when people are direct about their needs.

Submitted by ADHDMomof2 on Sun, 05/17/2015 - 14:32

I agree; give me all the information concisely before my brain starts filling in all the gaps. Tell me when, why, and how. Also, she states her needs a bit passive-aggressively, which can be confusing (at least to me). I don't like to have to read into someone's mind and motives. I don't think this one is on you, J.

The way to Hell:(

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 10:41

Before my brain starts filling in all the gaps.....

Everyone who has never has this problem in their mind; or hasn't experienced it from their spouse raise their hands....Mine is not up.....:)

Yep...No Doubt

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 12:09

Yesterday was ground breaking in the sense of finally breaking through....it is exhausting sometimes, but I also remembered just how stubborn I am too. I also realized that most of what I'm feeling is just frustration. In this case it really is just being frustrated all the time and having to live with that. Frustration is not anger but it can definitely turn into to it if someone is testing you every time they speak. I know it is a force of habit with my wife coming from the same place that many of mine come from too....my family. Her mother is the most frustrating person I have ever met to be around and have a conversation with. People many times right off everything to being elderly but in her mother's case... from all that I've heard (and seen) is simply exasperating! lol Difficult would be an understatement. When I'm around her I feel like throwing mama out the window most of the time!! ha ha

But I did finally get her to see this (allow me to say it without getting defensive)...by simply saying "I'm frustrated and feeling dismissed" instead of just walking away.....but then not saying anything else and leaving it there. A good technique I learned here on the forum and in therapy. It is quite effective!!

Directed specifically at my wife knowing she feels the exact same way when she's around her mother....it worked like a charm. I get it!!! yay

Better late than never and just keep coming at it I guess in the right way. I was close before (almost right)...but in this case, close is not good enough....it's not like horse shoes and hand grenades!! lol

Sarcasm

Submitted by jennalemone on Sun, 05/17/2015 - 21:56

"I'd like it if I didn't have to be making my lunch for tomorrow at 10:00pm tonight"

My 99 yr old neighbor loved her husband. She said his worst character trait was "sarcasm". She HATED that and could not bear to talk to him when he did it. Not lovely or loving is the tone of sarcasm. My dh and I BOTH get sarcastic too often. I am trying to be mindful but i do it sometimes. Why do I do it? Because I am angry about something that the conversation is making me remember.. possibly not the exact thing we are talking about but something is triggering an old or current hurt. It is passive aggressive. Sarcasm is not pretty.

I did it just tonight. I had been asking for years to have a certain part of our house fixed. Last week I brought it up again and said maybe I would call a carpenter or two for some ideas and quotes. Dh said today he had a plan for him to do this himself. After hearing his plan and asking a few questions about the plan...the plan seemed totally off the wall, un-doable, time intensive and not a great solution...This plus the fact that the last fix-up he did...remember his cleaning the tiles in the bathroom (takes me 1hr) took him two months after he cut a hole in the wall and put the bathroom out of commission.

The words I said when he told me of his half-baked plan were,"I don't see that getting done" and I told him about two appointments I had already made for people to offer solutions and quotes. In my mind I am also remembering an older project when he decided to put a new roof on our house. Even tho he did do it and is so proud of himself, it took him a few months of work...while he let his business all but die. He preferred the roofing to his earning a living. So what was going through my head when I said a little sarcasticly "I don't see that getting done." was shorthand for something stronger and more hurtful that I DIDN'T say, something like, "If you do that project, I'm afraid that you will not do your work too and stop earning money and I will have to cover for the money that you do not earn, that that area of the house will be unusable and messed up for the entire summer, that the grass and flowers will be dead around the project area, that you will leave wood shavings and mud tracked through the entire house for the entire summer, that you will spend weeks of shopping and buying the substrates instead of earning a living, that the first round of materials will be unusable and you will have to start over and buy more, that you will get mad at me for wanting you to do this darn#$%^^&@@#$ project and quit doing it for a while because you are having problems and frustrated, that it may sit unfinished through the winter, that you will expect me to clean up the mess, pay for the materials and then give you encouragement and gratitude."

No, those words did not come out. The words actually said is, "I don't see that getting done." There was probably a sarcastic tone while visions of similar life-consuming money-draining projects floated in my head.

J. You asked the question "why". This was my "why". Yeah, I guess it is fueled by fear. I am guilty of it. This may not be your wife's "why". My "why" is a learned fear.

Me too

Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 03:51

I loathe sarcasm even when it comes out of my own mouth, it is hurtful and divisive. It is never the basis of genuine connection. Do you know what? Your expression of actual genuine emotion sounded ok to me. Tim Robbins gets it spot on when he talks about authenticity on TED. Then again I think everyone should watch that video, it's inspirational.

Yes....H37

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 16:31

I remember watching it and was very inspirational at the time. And in remembering....it minds me, that you need to have constant reminders or you will too soon forget. I hear you. Thanks for this one.

Boy Howdy jenna lemone

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 13:11

But even what you just said ( a suggestion here for you if I may?) "If you do that project, I'm afraid that you will not do your work too and stop earning money and I will have to cover for the money that you do not earn, that that area of the house will be unusable and messed up for the entire summer, that the grass and flowers will be dead around the project area, that you will leave wood shavings and mud tracked through the entire house for the entire summer, that you will spend weeks of shopping and buying the substrates instead of earning a living, that the first round of materials will be unusable and you will have to start over and buy more, that you will get mad at me for wanting you to do this darn#$%^^&@@#$ project and quit doing it for a while because you are having problems and frustrated, that it may sit unfinished through the winter, that you will expect me to clean up the mess, pay for the materials and then give you encouragement and gratitude."

Putting myself in your husbands shoes based on my own situation I hear (like the Farside comic ...What's Dog's Hear) blah blah blah Ginger blah blah blah blah Ginger blah blah blah blah Ginger blah blah blah. In this case Ginger's master is scolding Ginger for eating food off the counter. The results of this is him not hearing much of what you said (tuning it out) because he's heard it too many times before. The sarcasm is just part of what he's tuning out but he's tuning that out too.

Even without the sarcasm....I would hear "I'm afraid" and that's pretty much it. If you think about it.....is there anything new in all the other things you said that he hasn't heard before? Even if it didn't come out all at once and you have said it in bits and pieces along the way at different times. He's still heard it before.

Like I said.....I'm pretty good at putting 2 +2 together and anything else outside of just your feelings is coming directly back at him and hitting him in the face.

I'll share my success yesterday with you.....this is finally what I said to my wife and it finally worked with her. I said " can I say something to you? ( asking for permission...a show of respect) You have every right to feel the way you do without question. And there is absolutely no way that I could not know what you are saying to me. I've heard you say (whatever) many times before even if there is some doubt you have in your mind ( I acknowledged her and her fears at the same time in a respectful way and notified her that I heard her in the past. Now both of us are in the same moment in time...not the future or not the past......NOW in this moment sitting here together talking. Remember the power of NOW...Echart Tolle? here you go) The I said "I would like you to stop for a moment and think about something" ( allowing her time to process this...OMG do I know this one!!! also....still not demanding but asking if she would indulge me long enough just to listen)" Just because you can do something and have every right and entitlement to do it......doesn't mean that you should." wham....that gets the wheels turning. Now I just needed to keep her there for a while. Every time she kept moving from this...which I let her do and just listened....I kept coming back to this point in time and what I said until she acknowledged me. It didn't take very long but it did take some doing.....I was really getting really frustrated and antsy and it took some effort not to let her take me down some rabbit hole she was trying to get me to go in with here....no no no...not this time. She even tried using that as a means to get me to budge. I'm very stubborn by the way if I haven't said this before? ha ha) Finally she stopped trying and just caved in and said

"well....that means that I have to make myself vulnerable to you and trust you and I'm afraid to do that with you because.............." Nothing else she said after I'm afraid mattered and I just tuned that out too that had anything to do with me. She thinks she afraid of me but she isn't....she's just afraid period. Those are her feelings and that's all I want to hear about. That's all she is feeling and that is all that matters. period. end of story.

This is when I said to her " I've known you for a long time and you've said this about yourself countless times to me before You have issues with being afraid and what this looks like to me is just another case of the same thing. It's the same thing you always feel no matter what is happening. In this case....I'm just another thing that cases you to feel the same thing. That makes me feel dismissed." boom. stop. end right there.

And then I asked her to look right at me (to acknowledge me now but not making her say it) and said " this is what it feels like when you dismiss me" and I took my hands and made a shoving motion like I was pushing her away from me.

That was enough for last night. she tried again, after acknowledging this for only a few moments (with some reservation and reluctance) and then tried to go back to one her defaults because it made her feel panicky and scared to be exposed and vulnerable and it was all she could take in the moment and had to do something to feel Okay again....to relieve herself) I saw this was time to stop for now. We'll pick up again later but now she needs time to process this. But this morning....she started out by saying how much she liked sleeping with me last night. (just sleeping no sex)

Fucking A !!! That's the concept! lol!!

If you can try something like this it will work. It takes an enormous amount of self control and living with frustration in order to pull this off but it works...without a doubt ;)

Oops..How Could I Forget!! LOVE is the Answer!!!

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 15:24

LOVE How could I forget? Love is the answer and always it always has been that way. It's what brought me to this and it is the only cure to heal a person's old wounds for themselves or anyone else and I really believe it is the only thing that can do this. And here I was doing it again and I just went through this with you and didn't mention it. Such an idiot sometimes! Not that I don't have love.....I have plenty of love in my heart but I don't use it at times. Most of the time I just forget. But for the majority of the time I just don't know how to use it even though it's there and I want to very badly Myopic....yes I do! I do know what LOVE is in the real sense of the word.....always have. But I have been away from it for so long it gets buried underneath everything else like the things that are happening with my wife and I or in trying to fix the problem. Yes....it came to my conscious mind through my heart and that is how I knew. I'm not comfortable expressing it sometimes and I realize that this is really a problem for me. Not so much a fear but just being uncomfortable. I'm not afraid of losing it for myself because I know it's there.(I'm Pollyana remember?) I do lose site of it and it can get lost many times for a while but I come back to it again and again but .....I not consistent here either. It does get hijacked too easily by so many things and I do see this too. But it is always there.even when I lose site of it but it does get lost at times of stress. It is the reason that I am not afraid either. I own it and it's mine to give freely to whom ever I choose. I don't choose to that often and am stingy with it myself. I know now that this is something that I really need to think about more often....like, all the time!!

More than anything here.....it feels kind of odd expressing it this way because I just don't do it. It doesn't come easily and I realized this too.

Last nights conversation started out with me asking my wife if she knew that I Love her and that I always have. I remembered this from something she asked me when we first met.....a another fear of hers......if I knew what Love was? It occurred to me before all of this happened that she was concerned back then but it did tell me that she was also concerned for herself. The fear out of protecting the hurt that she has and having her heart wounded in the past. I didn't pick up on this at the time but remembered it when I thought about myself.....reconnecting with heart and realizing that every time she would push me away ( feeling dismissed ) it felt like she was throwing the Love I was offering her back in my face each time she did it. That's really what this is all about. Her protecting her's and me feeling like mine is getting shoved back into my face without regard. That really is the challenge at heart between the two of us and in that sense......is my challenge in learning how to give it to her more but....making sure it's in the way she can receive it. And in the same sense.....learning more how to see it when she is giving it to me.....in the way she can. But I don't miss much in that way.....every time she does I know it when I feel it but I think for her.....her heart is less open than mine in that way but not because it is not there. A little confused at times but I'm willing to sort that out with her. It's always been about that without realizing it.....that is what I've been doing with my wife. Trying to find a way in and not understanding her heart well enough to take care of it.

All this clinical talk put aside for a moment.....I can be very expressive in loving ways and my wife does tell me this but I see it hard for us to connect sometimes because she demands it in such a way that makes it difficult for me to do. I see that she miss's the times that I do and keeps looking for it in other places....in a sense, the places where it doesn't exist or at least, not where it feels genuine for me. I've been down that road before and play acting a role in someone else's facsimile of what love is supposed to be like is not for me and it really never has been. The tears that I had the other day when I reconnected with my mother only confirmed this to me....it happened instantly and I knew exactly what it was. That is what love is and I've known it all along. If I wasn't sure before....it only confirmed this to me now. I'm Okay.....I can follow my heart and be confident it will tell me what to do. And in that sense.....it's done a pretty good job all along even with my moments of self doubt.

So last night....I told her repeatedly how much I love her during this process because I really do. I did use the my love for her as my guide in figuring this out but having some back ground knowledge in the how to department was certainly was missing. I need a lot of "how to" help in showing and expressing love and I do see this much more clearly. During this entire conversation....I also acknowledged the same thing that just happened after I wrote this to you. That many times.....I forget to say it. And not just that.....many times I make the assumption that saying a lot of things that I take for granted that I assume has been said before....in the past...... will get carried forward into the same moment as I'm saying things the same as I can see it in her. This is soooooo important and I nearly forgot to say it here with you. It is something that I also realized before I went through this with her. And again......coming to the forum and doing what I have done here only brought this to my attention. Getting too far ahead of myself and in the future....the same as my wife. Of course this is what I've been doing and not real zing it either! That really is the point of trying to be present and speaking from you feelings....so other's can see them too. I've been too long away from them and got too far from being present that it's taken a while to get back to them and stay there myself. Coming back here to write this and forgetting to mention it just shows me how quickly you can forget. Another good lesson to take with me as a reminder:)

But too the point.....LOVE does cure all but "knowing how" is something that I need to be learn a lot more about. I did learn it from my own mother who was unwavering in it and it showed all the time. She's my model in the Love department and I'm working on that too. I just have to keep this in mind and remember to practice it more. I've been showing it too my wife despite having her protecting hers and I'm seeing the barriers slowly beginning to crumble. Last night was the first giant hole in the wall to come crashing down. But....in the way I did it was in the way she needed me to and that is why it worked. I've been hammering on the front door instead of softly knocking on the back door and asking her nicely if I can come in. Just say'in;)

PS....also, learning that my wife is really my best teacher for her if I can be her student. Taking on that kind of a role with her is a good way to find the answers that she wants me to find.

If I were your wife, I would

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 19:28

If I were your wife, I would have felt that you were dismissing my fear. Such irony.

Not Worded Well...

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 05/18/2015 - 20:07

after I reread this. I was actually (the entire evening not included) was more about acknowledging that I realized why she was feeling dismissed too. More coming to the understanding that we were both feeling this way for our own reasons and just getting her to see why I was feeling this way too. Better worded and what actually happened. As I do here many times getting swept up in my thoughts while writing and not doing this well more than anything.

Don't hear you. Don't Care.

Submitted by jennalemone on Wed, 05/20/2015 - 13:50

Dh does not want to feel. He spends nearly all his efforts so that he does not have to feel. Drinking, smoking, crossroad puzzles, radio and tv on loud and constantly. Changing the subject anytime someone talks about anything personal or serious. He wants to be let alone and tend to his pleasure and comfort. He denies financial responsibility and doesn't want to hear about financial planning. He doesn't want to hear of any problems or challenges. If someone in the family has a problem, he does not think it is his business to be involved. Dh does not want to hear of any feelings or problems so he tunes them out and takes care of himself with diversions and calms his mind with denial.

When I asked my sister who loved her husband all their lives, what it was about him that made her love him, she said, "He listened to me and when I was feeling sad or mad, we would go on long car rides out of the house and he would hear me and we would sort things out together. I could feel he cared about me and had my back."

I am afraid of being vulnerable to my dh. I am afraid of depending on my dh. I am afraid to put my love in dh's hands. Dh does not want to hear about any of that.

"well....that means that I have to make myself vulnerable to you and trust you and I'm afraid to do that with you because.............." Nothing else she said after I'm afraid mattered and I just tuned that out too that had anything to do with me. She thinks she afraid of me but she isn't....she's just afraid period. Those are her feelings and that's all I want to hear about. That's all she is feeling and that is all that matters. period. end of story.

Yes I Do....

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/20/2015 - 12:44

And I'm so glad you replied since I realized how far ahead of myself I got shortly after I made my comment to you. No need to explain this at this point.... please excuse me? It does give me the opportunity to say this differently and I appreciate your's (and everyone else's) patience with me. (ah hem:) And I did hear before in that sense as you responded to me earlier.....nothing has changed since that time in my understanding because I really do.

I'll re-emphasize something I said to you earlier Jenna.....that for someone to be able to manage and live in your situation up to this point has taken a lot of inner strength and fortitude and that's what I see. If you can find the same inner strength that you already have and use it for yourself this time, I think looking hard at the source of your fears and challenging them without reserve will be the best place to begin. Facing them head on to see what you are really afraid? I can't give you any advise in doing, only supporting you to do it and believing in yourself. What I'm saying to you is...stop chasing the dragons tail and face your fears down and made your stand and fight!!

If you applied my exuberance and impetuousness into my last response ( and all my responses) it is only saying that I found some things that have worked for me in my situation with my wife all things considered. But before I did that, I had to do the same thing for myself and keep doing it over and over. It never gets easier but you do get better at doing it. For myself....I can never hear this enough times. Remember?..."this is your time now, now go out there and take it". In your case.... find your fears and meet them head on and take that courage and strength that you already have and take yourself back because you own it and it already belongs to you. You can do this because this is the thing that is possible.

I hear you J

Submitted by jennalemone on Wed, 05/20/2015 - 13:51

Thanks for responding, J. Thanks for the encouragement. I hear your efforts to help us all in being honest and open in sharing what is going on in our heads - good and bad. It is what I try to do also. The anonymous factor here is good - no politics or holding back. Thanks for your time and thoughts. By the way, I watched Pleasantville the other night. It did effect me with the "living authentic" message. I am guilty of living life how I was taught with "shoulds" directing maybe too much of the time.

Yet in the movie I also felt the yuk factor when the wife "got colorful" with the store owner and the son was encouraging her to follow her impulses. What??? So, there I am...there we all are. Between our "shoulds" and our impulses. Maybe that is the recipe for a good partnership. People who have similar "shoulds" and "should-nots" and similar tolerance and acceptance toward singular impulses that affect others and can be irresponsible.

After reading what you wrote about your wife's fears I am taking some time and attention to think about my own fears. I have been reading and reflecting on FEAR. There is some general fear I own the last couple years that was not a part of my makeup for most of my life. I am anxious now unlike me for most of my life. Why now?

FEAR is a response not a character trait.

Anyway, your direction to "look hard at the source of your fears and challenge them without reserve" and "..stop chasing the dragons tail and face your fears down and make your stand and fight!!" are right on target for me. It is my challenge to be more courageous. I will be like the AA saying "My name is Jenna Lemmon. I AM A FRAIDY CAT." Now what?

I am afraid of my husband's irresponsibility and impulses. What do I do? I know, but I am afraid.

J, your wife is telling you she is afraid. Do you hear her?

I Do Hear Her and Am Way Ahead of Her Now

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/20/2015 - 15:14

And yes....the movie....Hollywood, what are you going to do? I see these things too but take the good parts and tend to throw the rest in the garbage...can't please everyone. yada yada LOL The message was all that was important for you. Crazy, how you tell yourself the answer all the time and still don't see it....hopefully, eventually? I'm giving you good advise here....while it's fresh in my mind, it's what I just learned by writing as much as I have...... ( note to self) I need to write that one down somewhere and pin it to the wall:)

That "funny feeling" is a good place to start looking...call it a hunch? I don't think hunch's come from out space either if you follow? It is really is, literally, completely and accurately (that's enough ha)....what I have been following ever since I came here in the first place. And thank you for saying it first.....the anonymity factor was instrumental plus not trying my wife out for size with any of this....that would have been a train wreck and then some! lol Simply listening to yourself and stopping long enough to do it is sometimes is your best guide sometimes. Okay?...I guess I just told you one..."how to" without realizing it. There you go!! lol I even surprise myself sometimes! ha ha

In real life...I did spare here from the agony of defeat and was able to find a better way to reach her and myself (communicating) all at the same time. It's a lot easier to live with embarrassment when you aren't actually living with the other person.

An interesting tid bit to this.....I've been saying to my wife for years..."I always feel like you are ahead of me and I'm chasing after you". In the physical sense, I was....that was clear. But I picked up eventually that it was not her that I was chasing (or that I was too slow?) It was her fear that I was chasing after and when that happened is when I said STOP...stop the madness I'm getting off! And no means...NO! This did not go over very well with her if you can imagine. But she herself could not see it or tell me what it was? I can tell you. That's when we almost separated until I had a chance to figure this out.....I came here....I learned....now I know I really do see the problem. If you have the problem wrong....everything you do in trying to fix it is going to be wrong too....this much I have a lifetime of experience with to know at the very least...just this much. The rest now will be just learning the "how to" parts better. That too.....is one of my specialties once I have the problem firmly in mind that is...learning how and how to apply it. The rest will be up to both of us and how that all plays out but...hitting the bulls eye every time is a whole lot better than missing the dart board and hitting the wall?

So yes....I do see all of this clearly and just need to apply what I've learned. In the sense that I felt like I was chasing her fears...now I can stay ahead of them by doing my part as best I can to:

*Addressing her fears as much as possible and keep doing it but not allowing them to override what I have to say or things that I want or need at the same time ( as they have in the past )

*Being compassionate and considerate of her fears but not letting them hijack me by being able to recognize when they are trying to steer us (and me) in the wrong direction as they were doing before ( me chasing them and her leading with them )

*And telling them NO when I know they are completely wrong and in neither one of our best interests together

The problem is...fears cannot be trusted implicitly if they are irrational. I have my own but between the two of us....they don't have control of me in the same way that they do for her. In a the very real sense....they are destructive to both of us and that is what I was what I was experiencing since....my foundation is not built as much on fear as hers is. Fear can guide you to help show you the way so you can make good decisions...but they are really horrible at being in control and generally are poor decision makers on their own. This much....I have a very firm grasp on without question and for my wife and I right now...we have our work cut out for us because her fears are the ones that are driving her car and I'm not riding in a car with a person who is drunk with fear..NO WAY!! lol In this metaphor....I really do need to take the lead if that is what I need to do. But I'm also looking after both us and not just myself in this case. She can take control when fear isn't a factor....no problem here. I do trust her implicitly if that is the case. Trust for her will take more time all things considered and to a point.....the same grace will applied to her as I want for my ADHD symptoms.

But I do have to take this into consideration....between knowing better, and being compassionate and considerate. In essence....firmly (but nicely) insisting that I drive and taking the keys away from the her fear itself out of love for her and her own best interest as well as mine at the same time. I guess your AA analogy is a good one for me. I'm the reformed AA member and she is still struggling....I need to be her sponsor.

So yes....I do very much understand what I need to do at this time but I have to learn on the job so to speak and that is where it gets tricky. At least I got myself ahead of the curve which is a lot better than being behind as we were before.

PS...forgot to mention, her fears were actually preventing me at times from improving and working on my ADHD saying...for myself without asking for her help. Help for me is not coming from her in certain aspects and I'm not asking ( the countless stories here on the forum of having to take care of us) to the point....that isn't happening with us. The help I'm asking her for right now is to please allow me to do what I know is best and that works and not be counter productive. That really is in a nut shell...what I have been asking for all along. She needs to trust me just that much and relinquish enough control to allow this to happen...saying, she doesn't need to do this because I'm not going to allow her to stop me but....in the way I do this now will be completely different than before. that's the how to part I need most right now. I've proven it too her already and she needs to let go a little more which she already has begun to do. In that sense.....this is where I'm standing in my fight with her but asking for her help, not fighting against her.

Jennalemone " Fighting the Good Fight"

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 05/20/2015 - 15:22

there's short and sweet for you. It just popped into my head. no explanation needed.

Too Good Not to Share:)

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 05/21/2015 - 10:30

This was one of those inspirational moments that really are too good not to share with other people. When I said "it just popped into my head" from the quote from the bible....I couldn't tell you what that quote was even how I knew it .... in the distant past so far removed from memory that I had to look it up just to see if I wasn't completely off base. Thinking I was pretty sure just from hearing the phrase used? Here's the modern translation.

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

that's scary...in a good way:) Someone's listening? I hope C Ur Self is reading this. I thought he would appreciate it. If you are C ....somewhere here buried in all myh post a while back I know I said that we are both saying the same things but just differently worded. Here you go! ha ha

Here's a Word Jumble for you.....(having fun here...more creativity)

love,loving, hate,hating, fear, afraid,suspicion, questioning, God, Buddha, Mohamed, Jesus, Gandhi, Lama, peace, war, villains, victims, crime, honesty, hypocrisy, deceit, givers, giving, takers, stealing, enforcers, enforcing, whores, heroes, knights, charlatans, soldiers, murderers, beggars, begging, mother, father, sister, brother, laws, lawyers, rules, lying, acceptance, guidance, leaders, followers, rulers, tyrants, statesmen, politicians, Kings, Queens, priests, Pope, devil, villain, criminal, human, demons, angels, saints, sinners, beliefs, believing, believers, liars, lying, good, bad, wrong, right, black, white, judges, judging, hear, hearing, appear, appearance, beauty, beautiful, ugly, plain,know, knowledge, facts, theories, heal, healers, healing, living, life, dying, death, heaven, hell, earth, universe

Where's Waldo......truth? :)

Hi Hysteraical37....

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 23:43

I need to remind myself authenticity is hard and sometimes it is compromised in an attempt to be more social and accepted but it achieves the opposite.

I think you this is an excellent point you make...The ramifications on a person who is trying to be something they are not, can be stressful and create emotional instability in my experience...In other words if someone is constantly changing or doing things that they themselves would not choose to do, but is just trying to fit in or please another individual.

I'm a firm believer NOW:)..in just being who we are...Not at the expense of others of course...

This is a biggy in every marriage...I'm sure if we did a study LOL...we would find out much more for some of us than others..:)

Exactly!

Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on Thu, 05/14/2015 - 02:23

It is then hard to define that the person I fell in love with actually exists and I am left with the fallout. Your description fits my OH completely and thanks I now realise why it was bugging me so much.

Reminds me of a close friend...H37

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 05/14/2015 - 08:35

I think this happen's in most all our marriages esp. in the beginning. But, love is so sweet, ha ha...were able to deal with it a little better....But, even in marriage that seems to be great, it's not always roses:)....

I have a friend who married a controlling woman, who loved spending his money and eventually he caught her cheating on him and they divorced....I watched him try so hard to live with her...He was working two and three jobs. He was doing lot's of the child care, cooking etc...I new he was in pain...Then one day he and I was walking through the woods and he told me this, I will never forget it...

He told me in so many words...that the mental pressure he was under trying to share a life with her, had blinded him so bad..."It wasn't until he had been free of her clutches for quiet awhile before he really realized who he truly was"

Sadly I must admit to this being the case for me for most of this 7 year marriage...But, God's love has broken in to me and showed me the way to peace again...And the big secret was, people can hold no power over you, unless you allow it!....There's verse I read somewhere in one of the Psalms were King David say's: "My expectations are of the Lord!" I'm glad to say I am coming to understand the beauty of this passage!

Life can be a never ending merry-go-round ride...unless!

Exactly!

Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on Thu, 05/14/2015 - 02:24

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