"He who cares the least wins." I think of this quote quite often in my own relationship with H. He seems to need his independence and control and "self" more than he needs a relationship with his marriage and wife. That seems to be the mode of the day ..... boundaries and self-hood and self-pampering. I DO feel needy often. I WANT to care and have connection. Does that make me co-dependent? Or does the fact that our needs are not being met mean that our needs are not being met? Does our society believe that caring more is linked to desperation?
Playing "games" of control and distance (avoidance) seems immature and maddening in a long term marriage with family. When two people are constantly competing (for their ego), nobody wins.
The neuro-wishing and "A Course in Miracles" and "creating your own reality" only goes so far. I believe in positive attitude, gratitude and prayer but educational psychology and organizational behavior has proven that a teacher, manager, dictator, parent CAN control the beliefs and thoughts of others. Like was said on this thread before, a child cannot "conjur" up how they are raised and treated. Neither can many people without resources or entitlement have "mind control" about how they are treated. If a person has no recourse, no options, they must endure what is. And how you are taught and treated DO have an effect on quality of life unless you are delusional.
I like the quote J said from Yoda...."Your Jedi mind tricks will not work on me." which would be a good mind set to keep your sanity when you MUST ENDURE GASLIGHTING.
I am co-dependent. How do you separate good co-dependence with bad co-dependence? Do not partners as a wife and husband need to depend on each other to work together? Is LOVE nothing more than an illusion and something to protect yourself from being too vulnerable? How much ego does a SELF need to have before we are all independent of each other and all play the "power over" games which results in winners and losers and the game of WAR?
Some people fight. It is in their nature. Some people serve. It is in their nature. Those of us who serve are at the mercy of those who fight. It is best to know this when young so that choices can be made that are based on mutual trust and comitttment rather than sex appeal.
I do know of happy couples who appreciate and love each other. They are both co-dependent. Not one of them is co-dependent and the other a warrior who is constantly protecting himself from any intrusion into an isolated world of his own.
I have been gaslighted my
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I have been gaslighted my entire life by my narcissistic parents and my ADHD husband. I've been told that I should be institutionalized and that I'm not lovable. Ive been ignored and neglected. I've been ostracized from the family that I was born into as well as the family that I married into. And now, after 46 years of this treatment, to top it all off, my abusers don't like the fact that I'm such a "negative" person.
Isn't it ironic?
Hopeful Heart
Submitted by kellyj on
Look at the post here entitled...."Mansplaining" and the one I just included as a follow up entitled...."Going Through the Wall."
I think there is some good discussions on this. I had your experience growing up even though I'm the one with ADHD. I don't think it really matters which side of ADHD you're on to use this the same info which might give you something you can work with? I'm saying this from my own experience and what I found to work as a testimonial that it will if you can apply it to yourself and use it to guide you. That was my hope in including it here for everyone to use as they see fit if you choose. At the very least....it might help?
And no....you don't need to be institutionalized...and the only reason you might be negative at all even though you're not that way your self....is from being a victim of this kind of abuse. This technique is designed to make you negative even if you aren't. That's the point. It's so they can use it against you as ammo to avoid looking at themselves.
If that's the case....don't take the bait:)
J
Yes, for my narc parents it
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Yes, for my narc parents it is a game. They treat me horribly and then tell me that there is some thing wrong with me when I get angry or my feelings are hurt. Been doing it my whole life and it's never going to change. They will never validate my feelings or apologize for their behavior. I finally completely cut off contact with them.
My husband, however, is totally different. He's not a narc, but he's really good at pretending to be one. Lol. His actions are very narcissistic, but when I explain the situation to him he admits that he was wrong and apologizes. There seems to be a sensitivity chip missing in his brain. There is no way for me to be able to predict or ward off his insensitive behavior. It catches me totally off guard and I feel as though I've been thrown on the ground and kicked in the gut, repeatedly. If it's a situation that can be physically corrected, he will do whatever is necessary to make it right. However, if it is strictly dealing with affairs of the heart, he has no means of dealing with it. He's completely disconnected emotionally. I'm just left feeling beaten and abandoned.
Thank you for referring me to the other thread. I will definitely read it!!
I like that Hopeful Heart...lol
Submitted by kellyj on
"he's not a Narc...but he's really good at pretending to be one." lol I cannot argue with you there. lol
If you read what I had to say in the comment about "ADHD or Character Flaw"....I might have a pretty good explanation (in part at least) why that is? My T helped me out with that one a long time ago and it seems to fit right in with what I have discovered myself and think he's right about this one. I've found that he's just about right on the money...about 95% of the time so I trust his opinion and feel pretty confident in saying it.
J
wow that is a powerful quote.
Submitted by dvance on
wow that is a powerful quote. and if you have read any posts of mine, you know I experience the same exact thing. DH does not want the normal human connection that I do. I have trained myself to not need it, to not care but it is hard and a piece of me is dead. Small example--he was driving home from out of town and called me at 7pm to say he was an hour outside of Chicago. We live about 20 minutes from downtown Chicago, so he was maybe 90 minutes away. And he actually walked in the door at 10:30. Where was he all that time? Who knows. Didn't ask, don't care. It's so strange though and I worry for myself that when this is over I could not be with anyone else because I actually don't know what a normal human connection looks like. No matter what I do it's wrong. If I make a decision and don't ask him then I am excluding him/being controlling. If I ask his opinion, it's likely to be the exact opposite of mine which causes issues--I swear he just picks the opposite of me to make a point, not because he actually thinks that. it's exhausting. and sad.
holy cow! Jenna
Submitted by Zapp10 on
You have just stated WELL what is going on for me.....and I am on the very edge of ending this today.....I am so at the end I can't believe I am still HERE! This marriage is absolutely INSANE!!! I am tired of saying he is a GOOD person.....because he ISN"T to ME!! Who am I kidding? I KNOW he has a "problem" I cannot help that he can't see the "EFFECT".
Daughter was just here planning surprise birthday for her spouse....here at our camp by the creek. H was also present......and as is "normal" we included him in on conversation but knew it was too much talking and too many details for him to really "get" it all straight....no problem we understand that. Well....lo and behold he did hear me say..."let me make the cake" and he jumped in and said "why don't you order it...you have a lot to do. ..you don't need to add one more thing".....Excuse me? He WAS NOT coming from a heart that is HONESTLY looking out for ME.....WTH!!!??? This man has no clue WHAT I do or don't do EXCEPT where he is concerned. He REACTED the way HE would react if he were EXPECTED to ADD ONE MORE THING to HIS schedule...that he didn't WANT to do! He has no concept of me doing this as a "joy" for someone else. We are talking a freaking cake? and I don't have the ability to make that decision!? What the f...! I am livid! I am speechless!! and to my credit I remained calm but questioned why he was stepping in to this? Well that's all it took.....he went immediately to ..it's you, you and you, this and that and I did nothing wrong and on and on............and I sat and said nothing because I have no desire to be charged with assault.....
This is absolutely asinine and it is happening daily over stupid innocuous conversation!! I am done trying to figure out HOW the HELL this is a marriage.....this is BULLSHIT!
My H has said similar things.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
My H has said similar things. We used to argue about things like this. I have long-learned to just say, "I'll think about that" ...and then I do what I want later....at that point, he's not paying attention or he no longer has an attitude about what he thinks I should do.
I'm not sure I'm explaining that right. For example: If I'm planning a party, and H gives some sort of input like, "you should have it catered," but I don't want to have it catered, if I say that right then, H will get mad that his idea is being rejected. So, I say, "I'll think about that." Then, I quietly do what I want. Sure, H sees that I didn't follow his advice, but at that point, he's not "full focused" on whatever his suggestion was earlier.
See, at the moment that my H is giving some sort of dumb advice, the advice is very important to him....at that moment. Later on, it's not important. I don't exactly know why it works that way with his ADHD/OCD brain, but it does.
This happens a LOT. It might be morning and he'll say, "Today, let's do (a list of many things)." If I know that the list is too long and I say something right then like, "that's too many things," then he'll get upset for being "dissed" or "corrected" or whatever. So, I'll just say something like, "let's do XXXX first." (because that's what I need to get done.) Because I know that we're not going to get his long list done, so I might as well get the important stuff done first. lol
I'll think about that
Submitted by JAM on
Brilliant idea, this saying "I'll think about it." and then doing what you think is best when your ADD partner is no longer focusing on their advice. Thank you for this tip. It just may be a lifesaver for me.
Parties are a real sore spot
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Parties are a real sore spot at our house. My husband does not know how to cook at all. But if I'm planning a party he all of a sudden thinks that he is Martha Stewart. He wants to have complete control over the menu. The menu that he chooses is always very complicated, nothing can be prepared in advance, and I'll have to spend the entire night in the kitchen and never see a single guest. He has no idea about the logistics of pulling off a meal for a lot of people. Then he gets really mad at me and insults me when I tell him I'm not going to do it the way he wants. It's very odd because he is usually very calm and laid back. Many years ago I finally told him that I will never have guests for dinner at our house again because of the way he acts. I kept my promise. I don't do dinner parties anymore.
The word Care!
Submitted by c ur self on
Care...to attach feelings of concern and interest to the well being of another person; to feel affection or liking....Some people aren't capable of giving these feelings unconditionally. Life is a game to many. (You only get my attention...MY CARE...for a price....And that price will always be set by my human mind).
The word for two people sharing in unconditional love who live dependent on each other is... Interdependent....
C
So C....
Submitted by jennalemone on
If you could put into words....what is the difference, without judgment, between co-dependent, inter-dependent, and independent ?
Just my view Jenna....
Submitted by c ur self on
Parents will exhibit a form of co dependency in the raising and training of their minor children which should decrease and end as they grow into an age of accountability....Also some spouses will become co-dependent if their life partner is an invalid or deformed in some way that limits them from being capable of a normal life.
Co dependency in a marriage (or adult children) where one partner (or parent) accommodates the irresponsible behaviors of the other is never good....It usually starts when a person attempts to help someone they love...(enable).
Many things can come from this dynamic and they are all bad, they are all dysfunctional. The reason co dependency is hard to break is because it's so personal and blinding...The co dependent partner or parent will almost always make excuses to continue and the person that is living irresponsible in most cases just falls deeper an deeper into an invalid state...
Interdependency is a husband being responsible to his wife; and the wife being responsible to her husband....A healthy relationship where love, accountability and reasonability exists....
Independence is good and bad...We all should exhibit enough Independence to tackle life....We should never use our independence as a tool to subvert our Interdependent relationships...Or as a way of rebellion in the home if your a teenager...
C
Co-dependence
Submitted by jennalemone on
This was better than I found elsewhere. You must have some experience and awareness in this area. I had the experience but I did not have the awareness of what I was doing. I totally enabled H in so many ways. I thought I was being loving and "giving my all". I was giving my all. When I was younger, I would have the "fights" by laying it all out for him and telling him what I needed and what I was not getting from him complete with threats and punishments. I was not effective. No words or actions were enough to motivate him to be responsible to me, our marriage or family. He seemed more like a reluctant funny visitor than head of house. THE ONLY WAY for me to get through to him would have been to LEAVE - not just threaten. For various reasons, I didn't/couldn't leave.
OK, here is where I get to turn my STORY around. The Story Flip. There are a ton of gratitudes I can find in my life. Too many to mention here but we must remind ourselves how much we all have here in this culture in this time of history.
The blessings of my challenges were these: My H was irresponsible and uncommunicative....I got to be independent eventually and learn not to take things personally. I got to learn how to stop thinking that I could or even should change other people and I have learned to try to accept them as they are. And permit myself to be aware of what people are able and willing to contribute. That means that some relationships had to go and I did not have to let a piece of myself go with them. I could survive loss and build from the losses into someone stronger. I got to learn that we do not have total control of the way our lives will go. There is the bigger part of our lives that is not of our own willing.
I am learning more about co-dependency. I am beginning on a journey to look into my family of origin....they say to look there to find out what your "role" was as a child. I thought that part of my life was pretty OIK. It was. But since I have permitted myself to do so many things that I didn't really WANT to do, but compromised my SELF for H so often, I must find out why I was not able to fight or navigate my own way toward my own self fulfillment. I think it was more of a church/culture/feminine construct rather than a family construct. BUT I know of women who had similar backgrounds who have the strong wills and sense of entitlement that I lack. So that is what I am working on at the moment.
What was once a positive goal called femininity (according to the church and Seventeen magazine of 50 years ago) is now a disorder called co-dependence. Where did I really get the tendency to be co-dependent and how can I find my self and my strength. I want to be able to live my life as a healthy example for my children and grandchildren.
The Church According to Seventeen Magazine LOL
Submitted by kellyj on
I love that one Jenna...good one:) What I think about that one? (we had Seventeen mags all over the place in our house ....2 older sisters you know! lol )
Jerry Maguire (Tom Cruise )...."you complete me" Co-dependence!!!!!! lol
'My better half....." Co-depencdence!!!!! lol
"He's a catch" Co-depencdence
"I need you, and need to be with you" Co-dependence
"I hate that I need you, but I Love to be with you" Co-dependence (and ambivalence on top of it )
"I don't need you for anything and pretty much indifferent. But I need you to support me: money, life style, fairy tale etc...". Not caring, selfish or actually giving a shit and just indifferent to you as a person. In that case....anyone will do as long as they have what you need and they fit that check list you made up ahead of time. Lots of Money, Good Looks, Status,Nice Car, Nice Bod (sexy) etc
That's the Church of Seventeen Magazine I remember when thumbing through. Including those check lists....remember?
You might as well just find a Man Servant with lots of money who works as a Chippendale dancer on the weekends and pay him with sex and do his laundry and cook his food for him? There's a name for that if I am not mistaken? mmmmmmm?? Co-dependence?? No??? How about a business arrangement on the barter system?? Sounds closer to it?
"I don't need you for anything, but I want to be with you anyway" Interdependence
I personally think....there was a time when it wasn't co-dependent...from a different need. Survival. And neither person could do this for themselves alone in the same way back then. That's actually a real need.
Times have changed....that need no longer exists. Woman and men can do just fine all by themselves and don't need each other to survive. The need is gone.....now it's just co-dependence?
The down side to the Womans Liberation Movement in the 60's and equal rights for everyone. That's all good except....be careful what you ask for.....when times change along with those new beliefs and attitudes....there's a price for that freedom and I think this is it.
Neil Young "find the cost of freedom....buried in the ground" When those attitudes change....the entire system changes and with them... those old traditions and the needs that supported them.... die along with the new freedoms that you get from them.
Nature abhors a vacuum. And there's nothing any us can do about that. It just happens....whether we like it or not. Nature doesn't care....if you change or not? That's a personal problem as far a Nature is concerned.
And Jenna....just so you know....I think you and I were born on one side of the change....but now have to live on the other side. We kind of got stuck with that one unfortunately....and were born right at the wrong time so to speak.
J
Posted in the wrong spot.
Submitted by JAM on
Posted in the wrong spot.
Just ask yourself "How's it working for you?"
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
jennalemone,
The whole idea of the benefits of allowing ourselves to feel comfort and 'being-taken'care-of' and knowing that some one else is willing to share in the daily load we carry - that is chosen dependency. Healthy, I may say.
When one morning, a person wakes up and decides 'this is no longer working for me and I want to change a few things' and then they feel guilt and disapproval and abandonment and chronic anger and refusal to change - - - when there is the weird inability for both sides to find peace and happiness - at the same time - then that is co-dependancy.
If a person needs to sacrifice their own emotions, and deny their own needs - that is co-dependancy. If a person loses their own sense of self because their focus is on the behaviors and actions of someone else - that is co-dependancy.
If you are dissatisfied, and you are the only one trying to make it change for the better while your partner fights to keep it the same, that is co-dependancy.
From Mental Health America:
Questionnaire To Identify Signs Of Co-dependency
This condition appears to run in different degrees, whereby the intensity of symptoms are on a spectrum of severity, as opposed to an all or nothing scale. Please note that only a qualified professional can make a diagnosis of co-dependency; not everyone experiencing these symptoms suffers from co-dependency.
1. Do you keep quiet to avoid arguments?
2. Are you always worried about others’ opinions of you?
3. Have you ever lived with someone with an alcohol or drug problem?
4. Have you ever lived with someone who hits or belittles you?
5. Are the opinions of others more important than your own?
6. Do you have difficulty adjusting to changes at work or home?
7. Do you feel rejected when significant others spend time with friends?
8. Do you doubt your ability to be who you want to be?
9. Are you uncomfortable expressing your true feelings to others?
10. Have you ever felt inadequate?
11. Do you feel like a “bad person” when you make a mistake?
12. Do you have difficulty taking compliments or gifts?
13. Do you feel humiliation when your child or spouse makes a mistake?
14. Do you think people in your life would go downhill without your constant efforts?
15. Do you frequently wish someone could help you get things done?
16. Do you have difficulty talking to people in authority, such as the police or your boss?
17. Are you confused about who you are or where you are going with your life?
18. Do you have trouble saying “no” when asked for help?
19. Do you have trouble asking for help?
20. Do you have so many things going at once that you can’t do justice to any of them?
One big mistake I have made over time is 'assigning labels' Oh, once our son had been diagnosed as ADHD, I clearly saw the 'signs' of ADHD in my spouse . So I then latched onto it and kept pushing for 'an ADHD evaluation.' If I had rather 'encouraged' an evaluation, then other things may have been discovered - - -and maybe not - - - but as I have been participating in this forum for quite a while now - - - - I think we are doing a great dis-service to ourselves and our loved ones - - - to label behaviors. NO ONE but a professional can diagnose. It is NOT up to us lay people to label narcissism, bi-polar, .or any other arm-chair psychologist diagnosis. Even the above two lists - -they are copied and pasted from a mental health website. My own co-dependant diagnosis came directly from a therapist over 30 years ago. It seems odd to me when I ask myself those questions and wonder how in the same hill I let myself fall back into the unhealthiness of it all. As I know better, I can now make better choices.
Very truly,
Liz
Good List..... Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I think you covered all the bases well. I think this is really good information. Thanks
J