My husband gets impatient and tense over, omg, an endless numbers of things. He is sort of Jekyll and Hyde bc he's not a mean guy - he is sweet and caring and tries to do his best with me - but just, like there are frequent circumstances where he is tense/tired/hungry/trying to focus and can't, etc., where he has a very very short fuse.
While I find this tiresome and annoying, once I started to understand the ADHD thing, and also felt secure enough with myself (and his love for me) where I didn't take it personally, I generally have learned to just back off and give him the cold shoulder when he acts that way. Sometimes we're in a situation where I can't abort the mission - like if we're in a car together or somehting. In those situations, I may put up with a grouchy, tense, impatient husband for a couple hours and a few terse adolescent-toned comments before i finally snap and tell him to stop acting like that.
Here is my problem....he is IMMENSELY SENSITIVE and will have an all out meltdown if i take a tone with him. That's right A TONE - for ONE SENTENCE. We drove home from vacation this weekend and from the time he woke up and packed up and two hours into the drive, every interaction with him (tired, sick, whatever) he was tense and impatient, and yet for every. single. comment. i kept my cool and didnt stoop to that level with him. At one point I took a wrong turn and his overreaction to that merited my yelling for him to back off. So, it took hours and dozens of negative exchanges for him to finally get a rise out of me - and even then, i dont take any of it personally....
On the other hand, we have a nice evening and there is one convo abotu staining this piece of furniture and i said the same sentence twice and he still didnt hear - he said again "you put the stain on ten minutes right" and so the third time i had to say it i just had a slightly impatient tone when i said "NO! not ten! ONE minute for walnut and TWO for grey!"
He had a meltdown, told me i was "calling him an idiot and treatig him badly" and he stormed off to his office to go look up how to stain things and declared that I am not to touch the piece of furniture, that my impatience shows I dont know what i am doing since i "got so defensive" and he doesnt need to hear about what a moron he is.
I just stood in the doorway dumbfounded (as i am on a daily basis when this sort of drama happens over nothing)....i told him i was simply getting impatient bc i said something three times, that;s all.
Then i cam en the other room.
WHY? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!??! WHY does he think it's ok to act impatient and terse and bratty if he feels....oh i dont know....sore from working out....tired....sick....stressed from work....stressed about money.....is too hot....is too busy.....has a lot on his mind....the list goes on.....but I have to act PERFECTLY and if i get impatient EVEN FOR ONE SENTENCE he pulls from it the giant slew of crap stated above and just acts like hes been totally mistreated?!?
i am so exhausted with this guy. he expects me to be patient at all times, and stroke his ego and be perfect to HIM at all times, but he doesnt seem to try to project that same standard at ALL. He totally wallows in his own negative anything...and wears it on his sleeve and takes it out on me.
You both can improve....
Submitted by c ur self on
Maybe you should take this post as your notes...and set down at the kitchen table and agree to respect each other, much like you would your parent or a friend...Maybe agree on a catch phrase when one of are tolerating unproductive monolog of no interest to you....I like this one...calmly say hey and wait until you have his attention...Then just say something like "Do you hear yourself?.... You have to work on self awareness for this to work :) Or something that lets the other know, I've heard enough on this subject or in this manner...The reality is everyone of us can feel rejected when we sense were being cut off....So, that is something to discuss...Everyone is different, so we must respect a person's right to not engage in conversation, or not to discuss certain subjects...Also, another big one for us is...We, must be able to apologize and ask for forgiveness, and be willing to forgive....Blessings Kathy....
discussing anything with him
Submitted by kathy1208 on
discussing anything with him is impossible. He gets instantly tense and then has an emotional outburst wherein he accuses me of starting a fight. He is impossible when it comes to adversity and discussing conflict. Everything, i mean EVERYTHING, is an attack on him.
Even today - he was in an ok mood at lunch and then we went to our bank together. Its kind of a bad neighborhood so you have to go in the vestibule one at a time, and get buzzed in. That's how it's always been - he's been there 1000 times. For whatever reason, i guess he just didnt think about it for a second, he walks int he vestibule behind me and the teller on the loudspeaker goes "sir can you step out? we can only have one at a time."
"SERIOUSLY?!?" he says and steps out. By the time he is in he is huffy and puffy and stopimg to the table to get a deposit slip, impatient with the teller, and then when were going out the exit he goes loudly I GUESS YOU HAVE TO GO IN FIRST." and an employtee nearby goes "sir you can both go out the exit at once" and all pissy he goes "OH, OK...."
Like, THAT Is how sensitive he is. A teller matter of factly recited a rule - one perosn in the vestibule at once, and you've basically lost all civility in him - youre now dealing with an emotionally bruised, unreasonable child. for the 1/8th mile drive home he was still acting pissy and got impatient with me and i got out of the car and back into mine to drive back to work without saying bye. Nobody did a THING to wrong him and hes acting out.
As you can probably guess, if he can react so harshly to something so noneventful and impersonal like the vestibule thing, that ACTUALY conversations with a MARRIAGE - about LEGIT issues - is impossible. Utterly. impossible.
AND if you suggest maybe he is too sensitive he will exclaime that he isnt sensitive AT ALL! and go out like hes a solid rock of a man! eyeroll.....
Familiarity
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
kathy1208,
I do understand.
I am no longer trying to "figure out my spouse." I am trying to figure out me and how I respond, and I how I can stay sane!
Same sorta situation happened here a few days ago. A man stopped by to see something my spouse had for sale. My spouse was not home at the time, so I had some casual conversations with the man. He said we had a really nice piece of property, and then asked how many acres we had. I told him we had 10. Then he asked if we put up any political sings on our property. I told him we did not. He said that was too bad because he knew of some really good judges who were running for election.
I relayed that conversation to my spouse, and he got in a huff. "Why did he ask you? Why didn't he ask me?" Well, it could be because you were not here and I was. it was just a casual conversation. Didn't matter, as my spouse was off and running about how that man should have asked him, and he KNEW my spouse and him had different political views and he was just trying to get something by him.
Oiy. That is all I can say. Oiy.
yep...
Submitted by kathy1208 on
Yeah i am constantly in convos like that with my husband. i find myself repeating, in my head or aloud - things to him like "pick your battles" "is this worth being mad over" "dramatic" "temper tantrum" "what's the point" "life is too short for that attitude..." etc. i swear, the more he acts out like that the more i offset it with harnessing my inner peacefulness. Watching a person act outwardly so intense and exhausting over NOTHING all the time makes you really reflect on yourself and work on your own ability to NOT be that way. If i stay with him for the long run eventually im gonna turn into the dalai lama, ill be so peaceful. LOL!
I noticed that my husband has inherited this difficult attitude from his dad. His mom is the abolutely most amazing, calm, nice, loving, strong person i have ever met. Whatever stereotypes there are about people hating their mother in laws, those couldnt apply to me less - this lady is awesome. I noticed she has a lot of books around the house and relies a lot on the power of positive thinking, peacefulness, etc., and it shows in her personality and the way she deals with difficult things. I honestly feel like she has reacted that way having deal for decades with my husbands difficult father (who honestly at times makes my husband look like a lightweight in the ADHD dept), and i can see myself managing things a lot like she does.
I feel like of all the frustration i feel when he acts like that, it's less about me, and more about me feeling disappointed FOR HIM that hes letting himself feel so crappy and angry and wound up over nothing. Even when he directs it at me, it's disappointing and exhausting to be around but i dont feel like i take it personally at all (if it isnt evident from the bank teller story) - i am well aware he is the source of all his own negative troubles and it has nothing to do with me/
I just love my husband and want what's best for him. He wont get medicated and i wish he would bc i feel like he'd simply feel more at peace. I swear - he is 30 but if he keeps going at this rate, sweating the small stuff constantly, if you will, hes gonna give himself a heart attack someday!
Emotional Lability
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Research reported recently in the ADHD Report shows that emotional lability is actually a core symptom of ADHD. What is emotional lability? It's exactly what you are explaining here - responding emotionally more quickly to stimulation (positive and negative) than those without ADHD might do, as well as reacting more extremely than would be expected or (usually) warranted. As a core symptom, it deserves being put on your husband's list of "target symptoms" that he is trying to manage with his treatment. He can measure his progress against getting a "pause" in there and not responding so sensitively. For some, medication such as Wellbutrin can help. For others, medication such as Adderall might make it worse.
The issue with "tone" is actually a pretty serious one. We are all impacted greatly by the internal stories we tell ourselves. When you husband develops the internal story that you are demeaning him or putting him down, he sees your actions through that lens whether or not those actions actually do what he perceives. Simple interactions that are in reality neutral become charged with negative emotion simply because he has this internal story going.
This is not a good place to be, but the good news is that with intentionality, internal stories can be "reworked" to be more positive, thus eliminating this filter. For example, he might get in touch with the emotional lability part of himself and, instead of saying "she's being mean" might say to himself "I wonder if I'm overreacting?" (I'm not saying it's easy to do this, and it sounds as if this would be a stretch for your husband at this point, but...)
Since this emotionality is a symptom, you aren't going to be able to change it for him. He is going to have to confront it himself...and that may mean counseling and/or working with his doctor on it.
The "tone"! Yes!
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
This issue of "tone" has become an increasingly problematic part of my interactions with my ADHD spouse, He will go on and on and on (usually in a very harsh and critical "tone") about how MY tone of voice is the "reason" why I cannot have whatever I might be asking for, why we cannot have an important conversation, why whatever I want CANNOT happen.
While I believe he thinks he hears some "tone" in my voice, I know it's not there. I have learned to speak very softly and slowly to "enable" him to listen better. Even so, he has an increasingly short attention span for conversation- he once tried to get me to limit talking to no longer than 30 seconds per person- EVER. He wanted to use a stop watch to time me, and never gave me even 30 seconds without interrupting me. However, he overran his own 30 second rule every time he opened his mouth. And of course, while he was busy timing me, he was not engaged in the conversation.
I quickly came to view these tactics as control methods- not as tools to enable him to converse more effectively. It seems as if he constantly tries to take the focus off the content of the conversation just so he can end it prematurely. He shows no concern or caring when it becomes clear that I am unhappy that I once again have been manipulated into silence. Sometimes I wonder if he'd be happy if I never actually spoke again,
This sounds awful
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Since he is so interested in tone and timing, perhaps you might consider - just once or twice - recording a conversation between the two of you. This can be very informative for the both of you.
It Is
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
It is awful. I have recorded our conversations, but he is not interested in hearing them. I think he knows how bad he will sound and he doesn't want to face it. He told me tonight that the mere sound of my voice (not yelling, not criticizing) 'irritates the living "s**t out of him'. I have listened to the recordings (alone), repeatedly, and while I cannot say I have never raised my voice, I can say I do not yell at him, call him names, or interrupt him. If I try to de-escalate things by saying something loving to him, he mocks me for it and gets madder. I don't know what to do when he does this. I usually end up in tears- and sometimes, he makes fun of me for crying. It really is incredibly hurtful- as if he cannot or will not stop himself. He's like a runaway train full of anger, and he thinks I deserve all of the wrath he can muster. I really feel traumatized by this behavior.
Take care of yourself first and foremost.
Submitted by AlmaVera on
You are right -- giving you a 30-second time limit for speaking, then actually using a stopwatch...this is controlling behavior. You are also right when you say that he is not involved with what you're saying when he's trying to time you and shut you down. That's what all of this is -- the criticism of your voice, your tone, what you say, when you say it, how you say it, the anger at you -- a way to control you. It is classic emotional and verbal abuse.
I'm not saying your husband doesn't have ADHD symptoms, too, or that they may be what underlies his treatment of you. But, ADHD is not an excuse to abuse. You are traumatized, and it's totally understandable that you'd feel this way. Whether he goes into therapy or not, please find a domestic abuse support group for you -- call your local United Way or YWCA to see if you can find a group in your area. From my own experience, I recommend books by Patricia Evans and Beverly Engel. They have both written great books on identifying and recovering from emotional and verbal abuse. I was able to find quite a few at the library, too.
Signs of abuse from The National Domestic Violence Hotline's website.
Absolutely!! I had just
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Absolutely!! I had just responded then went back and am now reading the previous replies and it was nice to see that others have given similar thoughts.
Sadly...
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Sadly, this sounds like emotional abuse to me, and that may help explain your traumatic feelings. He may think that this is appropriate behavior, but it is not. You and he need some professional help with this...and if he is unwilling to participate then he is simply in denial about how he is treating you and I would urge you to seek individual counseling to understand what it is that you are getting out of this relationship.
Yes, I Do Understand That It's Abuse
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
I do understand that it's emotional and verbal abuse. My husband would, on an intellectual level, agree that it's abusive behavior. However, when he's in the throes of feeling criticized (or "attacked" as he often says), he will say that I deserve it. When his anger kicks in, his ability to reason goes right out the window.
A perfect example: He has taken to calling me "nutjob" lately- whenever I am upset over something hurtful he has said or done. He did this a couple of nights ago, and when I asked him to stop calling me names, his response was, "I'll do what I want. Your request is noted, but you don't have any right to demand that I stop. You can walk away if you don't like it, nutjob".
Other times, when he calls me a name and I ask him to stop, he will reply, "Then stop acting like a (fill in the blank)".
I do currently see a psychologist- the same one we went to together, so he has talked with my husband many times. My husband was always very defensive, and I think he was hoping to have the psychologist find me to be "the problem". When that did not happen, my husband stopped going.
My husband is a Jekyll and Hyde- when he's good, he's very good, and when he's bad, he's very bad. I kept hoping Jekyll would win out, but perhaps Hyde is too strong for him.
I know from what I have described, it seems a no-brainer to let go of him. I struggle to understand why I don't. Perhaps it is the 31 years we have been together, or my fear that I will never find another person to share my life. And then there are the times he is absolutely loving and considerate. I guess I bought into this situation being my fault for so long that I have to unlearn that and care more about myself if he doesn't want to get the help he needs.
Whooahhh!! I had to take a
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Whooahhh!! I had to take a break from reading your post because it made me sad and upset at the same time. It brings a lot of things to surface for me. Where to begin....
First: when you said he would say to you: you deserved it --- really!? !! First and foremost: Do you believe that? Honestly. Really think about that. If you think, yes, you played some part of responsibility for his action of calling you names, then: you need to immediately address that. In no way does anyone...regardless of age, financial security, gender etc. deserves to be treated anything less than a human who deserves respect. Please know that. If you doubt it, please take care of the beautiful person you are...I know it's so easy to say that, but it's a reminder to you!! You are a unique, beautiful and strong individual!! Believe in yourself and be your best cheerleader!! ( IDEA: when he calls you xxx, give yourself a positive affirmation.)
Second: Jackell and Hyde...he can be 'mean' but you know he loves you...and when he's good, he's really good. - does that sound anything like when you hear about women who stay with the physically abusive husband? How many times have you heard that? And they stay in hopes that the good will win. ... my question is: how many times have you thought or said that? And how long are you going to say that!? ... the answer probably depends greatly on how you answer the first question. Do you believe him when he says you deserve it? ..
Physical abuse is not worst than verbal abuse or vise versa. They are the same. Abuse. In some ways, I personally think that verbal can sometimes be more detrimental ... if not immediately addressed, this could affect the rest of your life!!
Speaking of that...I greatly commend you for continuing your therapy regardless of what your H does and/or says. That is great! You know deep within you that 'something' is not right. And you are correct in thinking that.
It doesn't matter if you are ADHD, Non Adder, this or that...abuse does not equate love and respect. To the abuser and the abused. Abuse in not ADHD, it is abuse.
Why do you stay? ...Well...no one can answer that but you. But I suspect some form of fear in the equation. Fear of being alone, fear of surviving financially, fear of social acceptance, fear of yourself...etc. But that's a great question and think that's a good one to focus on. I believe that the answer or simply the exploration for an answer will give you some insight about yourself. I am a newly diagnosed Adder and I recently broke up w my BF of 6yrs..after struggling with grief due to the lost of our son 1.5 yrs ago. I recently moved (9 days ago). I was SSSSoooo devistated! But the more I examined myself...and thanks to therapy and the wonderful people on this site...I quickly realized...my fear was completely based on fear of the unknown. well, if going to be honest: it came down to: my co dependency ... financially and emotionally. I was missing a very important element: self love!! I thought I needed someone to love me and take care of me in order for me to feel validated for my existence. This is not the case! I know this and am still working on self love and acceptance. Loving myself...being kind, forgiving and accepting is the way to find peace within yourself now and forever.
BTW: before I continue...and before you question my credentials in the matter, a little back story about me...quick version. (longer is in earlier post). I was adopted from Korea when I was young. Young enough to be 'in demand' but old enough to realize and have the ability to have memories. These memories...are not stories of a happy, innocent and joyful childhood. It was filled with abuse - physical (beating and sexually) and verbal assasination. Mind you: as a child...you believe what you are told. This has led to an adult life of consequences. When I made the comment about verbal being more detrimental, I'm speaking personally. Physical abuse will heal...but verbal...it penetrates your soul. And effects your self esteem and perception of worth (what you deserve).
I mentioned this in another post but I think it would really help you out: start and end your day with peaceful meditation feeding yourself of positivity. Youtube has some really nice possitive affirmation and or guided meditations. Really listen....and feel it. Believe that you are.
Hugs and love to you. Know that you are never alone. You are never alone. Nobody defines you but you. And everything you do is a choice. Love yourself.
If there is one thing that I've learned in the past few months is: you can't control what others do, say or think. BUT you can control what you think and do.
I don't know if any of this has helped but if nothing else...know that you are amazing just because you are you! There's only one of you...so value the uniqueness in you.
Just some thoughts.
Lots of love and support!!
I Do Recognize It As Abuse
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
No, I know I don't deserve to be called names. I recognize it as abuse. And I know his definition of love is very different than mine if he thinks this is the way I deserve to be treated.
Apparently I cannot influence him to make better choices. I think it's difficult for me to realize that all the sacrifices I have made for him were wasted because he is not willing to even try to change. It's such an ugly truth to swallow.
And. . . . . there's the rub
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
lonelyspouse,
Apparently I cannot influence him to make better choices. I think it's difficult for me to realize that all the sacrifices I have made for him were wasted because he is not willing to even try to change. It's such an ugly truth to swallow.
What I struggled with, for a very long time, was accepting if he is not willing to even try to change, I was powerless to enlighten him, or show him, or prove to him, a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. Period. My paradigm is not his paradigm.
I needed to get to the place that my paradigm was valuable - to Liz. I did not need anyone to validate it - nor acknowledge it to make it real.
Disappointing? Heck, yeah.
Realizing all the sacrifices I made were wasted? Heck, yeah.
Those are things for Liz to deal with in her life. To look squarely in the face, and acknowledge my own mis-steps.
Each person is truly valuable. It not me nor my spouse that is broken or damaged.
It is the relationship that is broken.
I want to know and feel and embrace that I am loved for me. I have grown beyond doormat, I have grown beyond victim, I have grown beyond wounded healer. My focus for so many years was to prove how valuable I was. Prove what I could add to our marriage. Prove that my skills had a place in my spouse's life. Marriage. Marriage. Marriage. Marriage. I can be the wife of a happy husband. I can lift my spouse's self-esteem. I can finally figure out why I can't get it right. I can fix me. . . . . . . . . .
Trying to be the epitome of a good, Christian wife has taken its toll on this lady.
I am a fine lady and a Child of the King. That in itself does not a wonderful marriage make. My value is not based on how well I can make/keep-together/prove my wifehood.
I am Liz. I can be a good wife. I can be an excellent partner. The 'relationship' is where the problem lies. No matter if I am married to man with an incurable disease, or confined to a wheelchair, or angry at the world. I am choosing to make choices about my life. My priorities. I am not on the back burner.
My hope is that my spouse and I will be walking hand in hand into the sunset in the golden years of my life. I alone cannot make that happen.
I am on the path to that beautiful sunset. I am looking ahead. I am moving forth. I hope some day to feel my spouse's hand slip back into mine, and walk along side of me. There is no guarantee that will happen. No matter. I am enjoying the path I am walking. My value is in me. Not the shining example of how I am "the best wife in the world."
Liz
Hi, Liz.
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
Hi, Liz.
I applaud your determination and progress along your path to a happier life. Hopefully, I will be able to do the same soon.
The only thing you said that I do not agree with for my own situation is that I do believe my husband is damaged. I say that not in a blaming way, but as an acknowledgment of truth- of the reality of what has brought us here.
I know that I am not perfect, but I am always willing to forgive and think in terms of our family and how to create win-win scenarios. He does not. He absolutely refuses to get the help he needs- he insists that he doesn't need ANY help because he has decided that I am to blame for literally everything he thinks and feels that makes him upset, unhappy, angry, uncomfortable, etc. (I know this because he tells me so). A rational person knows that could not possibly be true, but he's not being rational whenever he gets emotional- which is any time things do not go as he wishes.
He has other issues besides ADHD. He is a narcissist. The psychologist says he also has a kind of "cognitive dyslexia". He has issues with not being able to control his anger. He can't/won't control himself, yet he tries to control me and our daughter to the point that he wants to tell us what we can say and what we "really" mean every time we speak. Totally innocent conversations go horribly wrong because he insists on attaching hidden meanings to almost everything I say. When I try to clarify, he refuses to "allow" it- insisting his interpretation is correct. And these interpretations (interruptions) occur while I am still speaking- I hardly ever get to even finish a sentence, much less complete a thought. When I ask him to please let me finish my sentence, a typical response from him is, "No! No you can't!"
I don't feel I am being unfair to my husband in saying these things because they are an ongoing reality. If my husband did not have ADHD, he would still have issues that make our relationships with him extremely difficult. I do not blame my husband for having these problems. I blame him for not taking responsibility for them and not making ANY attempt to get help- for the sake of me, our daughter, and himself.
Brava!
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
All I can say is "you go, girl!" It is lovely to hear you speak of yourself in this way, and to understand that two people make a relationship, and that the relationship should not define who the people are, but the other way around.
Can't do it alone.
Submitted by jennalemone on
I am at the same stage of this learning, grieving, accepting and finding new paths. It has been like a death. What died? My illusions. Which is a good thing. I can function better with more realty clarity. Now I get to find out what I can now give birth to. - the courage and vision to step out into an abyss and take a risk on my self. I can't do this alone. People need others to count on and journey with in life. Even Oprah had Gayle.
For jennalemone and lonelyspouse
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Your posts on 'going it alone' really resonated with me. A few years ago, that's where I was. All of my family were 1200 miles away or more, I had two friends from work, but I rarely did anything with them outside of work. When my marriage ended, I was in my late 40s with an 8 year old. Once I got into counseling, and started really delving into my past and present, I realized that I also had to deal with the emotional abuse in my marriage, and the abuse in my childhood. After a particularly bad fight with my not-yet-ex-H, I screwed up my courage and went to my local YWCA for their domestic abuse support group. I can't tell you what a weird feeling it is to put the name of the person you once loved more than anything on a form asking for information about your abuser.
But it was one of the best things I did. It put me in touch with a network of women who were going through things that I could identify with. It was also a place where I made connections. I haven't gone in over two and a half years now, but there is a cluster of women from that group who are now my close friends. Our kids are friends, too, which is fantastic. We know each other's "stories," so we are still there when anyone needs help, but just as important, we are there for doing fun things. They have pushed me beyond my fears, they have cheered me on, and they were there for me when times were tough. It took time to establish that, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
You won't always be alone -- it may take a while to establish those connections, but don't give up. Keep reaching out to others. I really do recommend finding a local support group.
Yes, there is most definitely loss and grieving when a marriage ends. For me, the end of my marriage is one of those situations where I can see that it took that loss in order to gain something more precious: myself.
I agree wholeheartedly
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I agree completely with what SoOmanyquestions has posted below. Verbal abuse is just as damaging as physical, if not more so.
I have sometimes been faced with the kinds of questions that you face - there have been times in my own marriage in which we were really really good together or really really bad ("horrid" as one of my friends puts it). In both instances I do feel that I contributed to our being good or bad together...and in our case, it seems the 'good' has won out, so it can happen. BUT (and this is IMPORTANT!) the only reason the good wins out is because THE BOTH OF US, including my husband, wish it to be so. It takes effort to stay in the 'good' zone after you have experienced verbal abuse - those memories are very strong and damaging, and they come back easily. You must BOTH take action, every day, to come to terms with your mutual past (grieving over it, really) as well as create a 'today and tomorrow' that is positive and happy. Every day...
Your issue isn't your past, it's your present...in which your partner is NOT at all invested in your mutual success and, in fact, is actively working to PUNISH you. As long as he can blame and abuse you he doesn't have to look at himself. How convenient! There is no future for the two of you in this situation, and you will continue to feel worse and worse about yourself if you don't start taking action to work through the issues that are keeping you from changing the situation in some way (and what way that is has to be determined by you - your counselor can help you explore it.)
One obvious option with which you struggle is leaving the relationship. For what it is worth, I have had the chance to talk with a lot of women about their experiences upon leaving long-term (sometimes abusive) relationships. What they say is:
some wish they had tried harder with their husband before giving up, particularly when they walked away due to an affair (sounds as if you have been working hard, but perhaps there is room for more, though I again emphasize that you simply will not succeed without his active involvement)
most say that the hardest part is the fear and devastation they felt before leaving the relationship...and that being on their own and out from under the harmful relationship is a relief once it happens
almost all say that their friends and family provided much stronger support than they had even expected...you don't end up doing this alone if you make yourself available to others
When you are in an abusive relationship it is too easy to lose track of how wonderful and competent you actually are. Your partner is in the process of convincing you - right now, even as you read this - that you are no good and worthless. Do you really wish to continue to receive that feedback...and come to believe it, when it's NOT TRUE?! Please, please, please work with your therapist to uncover the great parts of you and get yourself out of this situation.
A few months ago, I saw this
Submitted by AlmaVera on
A few months ago, I saw this article about abuse that blew me away. It was posted on the website The Good Men Project. I shared it with a few friends, both male and female, who had been in abusive relationships, and they felt the same way. I've never seen the cycle of abuse described in this way, from the viewpoint of both partners. I'd love to know what you all think -- does this apply to you, too?
A Theory on the Role of Love in Abuse
UNDERSTANDING! Thanks AV!
Submitted by jennalemone on
I read the article and thought to myself, "Why has no counselor ever picked up on this with me?" THIS is how our marriage has been going in a circle of him wanting unconditional acceptance from me and me wanting to feel special to him.
Will you still love me if I ignore you? Will you still love me if I insult you? Will you still love me if I betray you? Will you still love me if I make you feel worthless? Will you still love me if I threaten you? Will you still love me if I use your vulnerability against you? Will you still love me if I am dirty and disgusting? Will you still love me if I am irresponsible?
He needed me to count on me to love him no matter what he said or did.
"...the special treatment the emotionally abused partner craves—the apologies, the love notes, the flowers, the dinners, the gifts, the promises, the make-up sex—follows and becomes intimately linked to each instance of hurt. The abused partner begins trading acceptance of abuse for special treatment, and asks only one question: “Will the special treatment return if I tolerate and forgive this?”.
This article is really important for me to digest. This is not ADD but is somehow tied to it in my dh's case. I don't even think he purposely does things to upset me. It has become a bad habit of his not caring and not noticing and his expecting to do "whatever" and I stay with him. I have often wondered what my payoff was....I had still been expecting him to make me feel special some day.
All true
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
Thank you, Melissa, for sharing your thoughts.
There is SO much here to unravel and consider. I totally agree that I cannot make any difference in our relationship if my husband does not choose to actively participate. He is somewhat aware of his issues, but he can't/won't bring himself to admit that he is the only one who can change them- that it isn't my responsibility to do so- nor can I. And I'm not even sure he understands why it is important to change them- even for his own good.
I agree that any difficulties a couple experiences are shared, and I do take responsibility for my own part in them. I can be impatient, and my feelings are easily hurt. I like closeness- maybe more than he does. I like to talk things out- he is avoidant. I readily admit I am not blameless in our marriage.The problem is that my husband says he is blameless- and he seems stuck in this mode of automatically transferring all responsibility to me for all his woes. If I try to discuss it with him, he just shuts down the conversation as soon as he hears anything he doesn't like- which is usually a comment about the situation that he cannot honestly dispute.
I think on some level, he knows he bears a huge responsibility for the way our interactions turn out. Is it habit that makes him keep repeating the same behaviors and blaming me, or is it just too painful for him to admit to himself that he has not behaved appropriately? I don't know. All I know is that the end result is the same every time- I feel defeated and hurt. I have no idea what he feels about it afterward- victorious? Energized? Self-righteous?
It will take me a long time to work through my feelings of low worth and shame over this. At this point, I am just trying to get through one day at a time. That's all I can deal with right now- my reserves are depleted.
The Tone!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I was so sick of being told that I had a tone when I didn't that I began communicating by text and email (and posting smilies, etc). That way, he couldn't say that I used a tone.
The issue is that when they are hearing something that isn't "warm fuzzy", then they think they are being "yelled at".
Before I went to the Text/Email method, H would say that HE is the only one who gets to decide if I used a tone, or if HE used a tone (which HE often does). He insisted that HE was only one who could decide whether he was using a tone or hearing a tone, because only he is honest. lol
H often uses a rude tone, but he insists that he doesn't. I began recording him to show him his "rude tone" but he wouldn't listen to the recording...he'd leave the room.
Exactly!
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
I tried emailing- he STILL said there was a "tone"!
I'd spend inordinate amounts of time composing, editing, reading, re-reading my emails before sending to ensure they were concise, non-argumentative, and clear, and he still complained. He would often send a quick and curt reply- even when I asked him to not reply right away and just think about what I wrote. He usually skipped over anything meaningful, and just tried to pick apart whatever I said. I'm sure that was simply to deflect attention from the subject at hand. And he repeatedly tried to read subtext into every single email- just like he does in conversation.
I even tried voicemails because at least I wasn't interrupted as I always am in conversation- until he told me that he "usually" did not listen to them because he just "knew" they were bitchy. When I asked how he could make that determination without listening to them, he replied, "Because you're a bitch!"
I KNOW he misunderstands a lot of what I try to communicate, but if I'm never given an opportunity to clarify, how can I be understood? Sometimes I really think he doesn't misunderstand and just pretends to so he can avoid a topic he does not want to discuss. Other times, I'm sure he's misinterpreting, but it's too late as soon as he decides on the "real meaning" of my words. That internal filter that he has running 24/7 really is a problem.
It's amazing how often they decide that their truth is the only truth- there is NO discussion when they act like this.
I also experienced the rejection of recorded "tone" of voice evidence- if it had showed me being in the wrong, I'll bet my husband would have wanted to listen to it over and over again!
Yes
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
I KNOW he misunderstands a lot of what I try to communicate, but if I'm never given an opportunity to clarify, how can I be understood? Sometimes I really think he doesn't misunderstand and just pretends to so he can avoid a topic he does not want to discuss. Other times, I'm sure he's misinterpreting, but it's too late as soon as he decides on the "real meaning" of my words. That internal filter that he has running 24/7 really is a problem.
It's amazing how often they decide that their truth is the only truth- there is NO discussion when they act like this.
>>>>
I am rarely given an opportunity to clarify. H often jumps to the wrong conclusion, then dysregulates, and I am not given an opportunity to clarify.
Sometimes I think think that he doesn't want me to clarify because then he'd be "wrong" about his anger. Instead, he wants to be in denial so he can be angry.
Interesting comments on 'the tone'!
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Sounds as if there is a strong, strong fliter that these partners are hearing you through (or, more accurately, not hearing!) Have you tried learning conversations? I know that this requires that both partners sit down and talk with each other, but if that's possible, it's pretty darned hard to be accused of using 'the tone' in a learning conversation. (If you don't know what that is, see my first book, The ADHD Effect on Marriage.)
? Learning Conversations?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I will get the book, but the main problem is that H never lets me have a turn to talk. He'll say, "i'm going to talk first because I'm the one who is hurt (or hurts more). " If I ask how long he's going to talk, he'll say "two minutes" (ha!) He'll drone on for 45 minutes. Then when supposedly it's my turn (which is rare), he'll say, "now, you can only answer the following questions with Yes or NO answers. You can't talk about anything else. Just one word, Yes, or NO to each question." lol If I try to say, "but that isn't a yes or no question" or "your premise isn't right," then my "turn " is taken away.
We have tried several therapists, and each time the therapist will reassure me that I will get a turn. ha! When the T tries to give me a turn, H will shout me down, or tell me that I'm lying or just interrupt me by saying that I'm smearing him.
The T will try to manage the sessions, but H won't allow that. The last T we had told H that "you scare me, and you're not allowed to come back." This was a man! H behaved like a child in his office, constantly arguing, constantly interrupting, etc.
No T has been able to get him to "shut up and listen" to my side of any story.
I had a similar situation
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
Yes...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>>>
He didn't always interrupt, but as soon as I started speaking he would fidget and squirm in his chair, huff, and make it very clear that he did not like whatever I was saying. Then he would explode with his opinion of why whatever I said was wrong. Our psychologist (also a man) told my husband we would have to see him separately because my husband could not contain himself.
>>>>
I REALLY wish a T would do this with us, but my experience is that T's don't like doing this.
>>>>
It had also become necessary that we had to travel to joint sessions in separate cars because my husband would berate me all the way home- accusing me of "snowing" the psychologist to make myself look good to him.
>>>>>
Oh yes! H would not only berate me on the way home, but he wouldn't speak to me for days after.. And, he also would say that I tell lies to get the T on my side and that I "smear" him to make him look bad. He also would say that I don't say enough "great things" about it. heck, we only have an hour, and I am only given a few minutes, I am not going to waste it by talking about "oh, he emptied the dishwasher last night! " lol
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It's all about control.
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Yes, it is. H's dad was a CONTROL FREAK and he is a LOT like his dad.
>>>
Why should your turn in any conversation consist only of a "yes" or "no" answer to your husband's questions?
<<<
Because he doesn't want to listen to my side. he only wants confirmation of his side. And, he "rigs" the questions in a way that no matter how I answer (yes or no), he will hate the response and yell. I proved this by saying, 'Ok, before I answer yes or no, I want you to write down what your response will be to each answer and when I give the answer, you have to show me BOTH answers (because I knew that either way, he was going to yell). He refused to do it...proving that I was right.
Because the truth is....no matter what I say, it can't repair his extremely FRAGILE core.
>>>>>
That's abusive and controlling. My husband has pulled similar moves. I would tell your husband that you want to speak first,and that you will determine what you want to say.
>>>
I have begged to "speak first," and I'm just told "no". I'm told that he's the "aggrieved one" and he's the one who "hurts the most" so he gets to speak first ALWAYS. So, sometimes I then refuse to even listen to him....which infuriates him because he says that I do that to "frustrate him" (uh yes....frustrate his controlling behaviors)
<<<
If he balks, don't let him draw you into an argument about it- just walk away and tell him you'll be available when he's ready to listen. It's that old double standard- I'm sure if you treated your husband the way he treats you, he'd never stand for it.
>>>
Right! And I have said that. And he immediately says, "Ok, I'll listen, but first let me say........(blah blah blah)." or he'll say, "I promise you'll get to talk after me, I PROMISE." But, he'll find some reason to break the promise (you didn't have good eye contact, you weren't really listening, you aren't being empathetic enough, etc, etc)
>>>>
I think they truly believe whatever they have to say is actually more important/more valid than whatever we have to say.
<<<<
Absolutely. H is so damaged from his childhood that his core is just nothing.
>>>>>>>
. When I point that out to my husband, he denies feeling that way, but that's just posturing.
<<<<<
exactly
>>>>>>>>
And I also point out to him that no one else, co-workers, friends, family members would ever allow him to speak to them the way he speaks to me.
>>>>>>
Absolutely! H is extra nice with others. He fools everyone because he is nice to others.
>>>>>>>
I know it's partly my fault for ever tolerating it- if it worked even once, they will keep trying to get it to work again. The refusal to engage has to be consistent- you must leave no doubt that it won't work again. Then and only then is there a chance they will get the message and realize they have to change that behavior. I know how hard that is to do when you just want to be heard. The fact that we have to work so hard just to have a voice in our own marriage is so wrong- a wrong that needs to be righted. And, there is no guarantee they will ever respond appropriately, but I think it's worth trying if you want to try to make your relationship work. If nothing else, you'll feel better about yourself for setting a limit and sticking to it.
<<<<
Yes, I was wrong not to stop this from the get-go. I should have dumped his butt from the beginning.
I tried this too...same result...
Submitted by jlhrva on
I tried the emailing/texting route as well. Only to be told that he was not saying things he had specifically said, in black and white. When i point them out, I am "deliberately misinterpreting".
He accuses me of "treating him like sh*t" (in an EMAIL, mind you, which I have composed thoughtfully and carefully to be as neutral and soft as possible). If I try to clarify, I am "justifying" my poor actions, which is "defiant" and "belligerent".
I have reached the conclusion that when they are in the negative head-space (as I call it), where they seem to actively want to find a way to interpret anything you do or say as wrong, bad, mean, awful, etc...there is literally NOTHING you can do. Nothing.
For Me, Emailing Is As Frustrating As In-Person Conversation
Submitted by lonelyspouse on
I HATE that many of us have similar "challenges", yet it is somewhat comforting to learn that we're not alone.
I too am constantly accused of "misinterpreting"- both in conversation and emails. The only satisfaction (if you can call it that) for me is that at least I get to finish a sentence in an email. The downside is that I know whatever I write will either be totally ignored OR some miniscule point will be inflamed and twisted to deflect from whatever the core of my communication truly is about.
It really seems to me to be a power struggle. My husband wants to "win" at any cost- to always be right. (Dr. Phil calls them "right fighters"). He denies this (of course), but it is so painfully obvious- and the psychologist we saw (and I still see) agrees with my observation. I just want to be heard and have my opinions and ideas considered and valued equally. Unfortunately, my husband refuses to acknowledge that he is not "allowing" that, and insists that I just want to be in control- as in "the boss".
I often feel like I am dealing with a petulant (55 year old) child. The sad part is that while most children grow out of these selfish kinds of behaviors as they mature, my husband will not. Although he is very intelligent, he has a very low emotional IQ (per the psychologist). It has been explained to me that while anyone can change, they often don't (especially when they're older) because they aren't brave enough to face that they have been wrong about so many things for a great portion of their life.
Our daughter (she's 22), wants nothing to do with my husband, and of course, he blames me for "brainwashing" her against him. The truth is that she detests his behavior and personality, and the fact that he is SO judgmental and refuses to listen to anything she says that he doesn't want to hear. If she voices an opinion about anything that sounds similar to anything I have said, he viciously accuses her of being my puppet and instantly dismisses whatever she says. She has taken the healthier route of giving up on him- not because she wanted to, but because she sees the futility of trying to reason with him. He then accuses me of deliberately turning her against him, but the reality is that it breaks my heart. My family is fractured and the one person who could make a huge difference if he would take responsibility for his own behavior will not. He lives in his negative headspace 24/7- due to the twisted filter through which he views/hears everything. The shields are always up- it's a horrible and wasteful way to live. I often wonder what he will think of his "legacy" at the end of his life,and if he will regret his behavior. Of course, at that point, it's really too late. I need to start worrying more about my legacy and my life- I want to live whatever is left of my life with meaningful purpose.
You Can Do It Jennalemone
Submitted by kellyj on
Instead of looking for all the reasons you can't....search for all the reasons you can. then do it. The rest will come when you get there. People will help you. You'll be surprised at what you will find once you try. You will still be afraid the whole time but don't let that be the one thing that stops you. I think you'll find that fear is a great motivator when you are actually doing it. It will also go away once your there. You can do it.
The only thing worse than doing it...is having it done to you. Think about it.
J
Fear and paralysis
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks J.
This morning I'm not busy...so am studying up on father daughter relationships and how our relationship with our fathers has impact on our relationships with others. I will share what I am finding on a new thread. I need some healing or a catharsis to get out of being paralysed by inertia.
Jennalemone Greatest Motivation Speech of All Time
Submitted by kellyj on
Kurt Russell does a better job than I could ever do but.....I know this speech by heart. It is the real speech that Herb Brooks used in that moment. I use it all the time. No one could more afraid than these guys. It might help you too.
https://youtu.be/vwpTj_Z9v-c
FYI; this is the healthy version of "screw 'em" lol
j
Locker Room Go Get Em talk
Submitted by jennalemone on
Why does that video give such a positive feeling? It REALLY does! It's the kind of pep talk loving couples and parents should give every day. What a great world if we all had such support and faith. Thanks J. Thanks for your words of support. I just feels good to have someone respond with helpful words. I think I will keep that video on my "favorites" bar and watch it a few more times this week.
The Thing Is jennalemone
Submitted by kellyj on
It really is a universal thing ( why I use it and offered it to you ). It does make you feel good! And like you said, you could use it like you were suggesting in a family...but you can use it for yourself in helping you reach your own personal goals too. It works in ALL ways and it does feel good too. It's sends a positive message and sometimes we forget to send those to ourselves! lol I was a little afraid after I posted it ...that it would suggest to be adversarial equating your H with the Russians ha ha Even if that's true..... not so good! wrong message! lol
It's more about doing the right thing for the right reasons and doing things for yourself and what is good for you and makes you feel good too without worrying about what someone else thinks or does which can only help no matter how bad things are between you and your H. This would also apply even if you decide not to be with your H at all but it's not making that suggestion either ( he's not the Russians or the villain in this story lol ) More about ending the fear and self doubt that causes you to feel bad or paralyzes you with self doubt.
I saw this after you made another post I was going to say something to.....signing off her and switching over lol
J
I believe
Submitted by kaycee_michelle on
you are definitely on to something here. Kris Valotton has many videos on youtube, podcasts and books that would be helpful also. He grew up with major "daddy" issues and has amazing insight on this topic. I've learned no matter what my spouse is or is not doing, I will continue to grow, better myself and do the things that make me happy. Not to say I am no longer working on our relationship, however I am not focusing on it the way I used to and I've found WE are better each day because of it.
Yes Exactly kaycee_michelle 1 + 1 Does Not Always Equal 2
Submitted by kellyj on
because 2 together is greater than the sum of their parts. You can only improve 1/2 of this equation. You got it.
J
Typical
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<<
Here is my problem....he is IMMENSELY SENSITIVE and will have an all out meltdown if i take a tone with him. That's right A TONE - for ONE SENTENCE.
<<<<
I get this all the time. H can be grumpy, rude, "use a tone", etc all day long, and if I say ANYTHING, even one word that he doesn't like, he'll have a meltdown, he'll tell me that I'm "being a total a-hold," etc. Usually, I don't even use a "tone", but if he doesn't like something, he "hears" a tone that isn't even there. I have whispered things at times, and he'll say that I YELLED at him??? I whispered something to him in a store (I whispered to him to lower his voice....H was scolding me LOUDLY in a store and I whispered that he was causing a scene), and later that evening, H said that I "yelled" at him. What???
Years ago, when this "tone" thing started coming up, H declared that HE is the only one qualified to determine if he used a tone or if I used a tone. lol. This was in response to my insistence that we needed to decide whether the "talker" was the authority on that or the listener. H insisted that he was the authority either way....and never me....because he is the "honest" one and I'm a "big fat liar." lololol Our kids heard this, and of course they know H is mentally ill, so later on the kids and I talked about how crazy that is. Many times our kids would say, "no dad, YOU were yelling, mom did not raise her voice to you. YOU were the only one yelling." Of course that would make him very mad.
In recent weeks, I've learned to give H his anti-anxiety meds first thing in the morning. Then I keep a couple pills in my purse and when I see that he's getting agitated, I give him one. Then he tells me that this reminds him of his childhood. He tells me that his family would all chime in and say, "take your meds" at various times (likely when they'd see him getting angry over nothing, but he didn't use those words.).
Of course, H is 60 years old and this is the first time I've EVER heard him say this. Another little secret that's come out 33 years after I met him. (3 years ago, I found out that he had a major breakdown, mental hospitalization in college....and he only told me because our older son was having a rough semester at college and H was concerned that the same thing might be happening to our son. BTW....son was fine, he just missed his GF while away at college.)
Anyway, H has kept so much of this secret from me. If I had known any of this stuff, I never would have married him. I'm angry at his family for keeping this from me.
Anyway....I think you need to try to get both of you into therapy. A good T can help with this "tone" issue, and likely determine whether H needs intensive therapy himself, which he likely does.