My wife (ADD) and I (non-ADD) had a really big fight this weekend, and I need some more advice. In case you haven’t seen my past postings – my wife and I have both been working very hard to express love to the other – me by criticizing less and using words of affirmation and physical touch more, and my wife by giving me more attention without distraction. And we had just had a pretty good week. But then:
The fight started when, after telling my wife that the comment she just made after I told her something made me feel like she didn’t care about what I was saying, she got defensive. Which resulted in my not feeling heard, which when I said something, resulted in her getting even more defensive, hostile, etc. which then escalated into a terrible fight where my wife went to bed yelling, cursing and slamming doors while I stayed down on the couch avoiding her wondering why I was still in this marriage and thinking that maybe it was time for us to split. She came down at some point and said she wanted me to come up to bed, and I said I couldn’t. That I couldn’t just forget what just happened and come to bed. That, in fact, I was thinking maybe we need to split up, because these fights are too common and I just can’t take them any more. (I had thought this before but had never actually SAID it.) That put her into a “Please don’t leave me. Please come to bed” mode, while I just lay there afraid to say a word. It was terrible!
She went up to bed, but eventually came back down and calmly and nicely asked me to please come back to bed, which I did. And the following morning we talked about what had happened. And I was FINALLY able to get her to hear that the dynamic that seems to occur very frequently is this:
I attempt to tell her something she did that made me feel invisible, like I don’t matter to her. She gives a defensive (or hostile, or belittling) response, which makes me feel like she hasn’t heard what I said, which makes me feel even more invisible. Which causes me to say something like “I don’t think you HEARD me, what I am trying to say is . . . “ And I try to restate what I said in a way that she can hear it. Sometimes she gets even more defensive, and starts saying things like “Well, YOU do such and such.” Or maybe she’ll just say “That’s not what I did.” Or maybe she’ll say something to indicate I shouldn’t be upset by what she did. Sometimes when I say “I don’t think you heard me” she’ll say “Yes I did” in an almost hostile tone of voice. And I’ll say “Can you tell me what you heard? And she’ll repeat back the WORDS I said, in a way that makes me feel like she’s saying “See, I TOLD you I heard you. So there!” Which make me think that while she heard my words, she didn’t really hear the MEANING of my words. And the TONE she uses makes me feel even worse. Or, sometimes she’ll just say “I HEARD you – stop talking about this!” And that certainly doesn’t make me feel like she heard me either. I’m sure there are other examples of responses she has, but I’m sure these suffice.
Anyway, the morning after the fight, I told her some of this. And I also said – “what usually happens is either you don’t hear me, or if you DO hear me, you feel SO BAD about what you did, that you end up feeling like a terrible person, and then the exchange turns into your saying what a terrible person you think YOU are and how bad you feel about that. And it’s not my intent to make you feel like a terrible person, so I might try to make you see that you are NOT a terrible person. And so what happens is it becomes all about YOU, and whatever I was trying to say just gets lost as a result. Then what happens is we “make up” and YOU end up feeling better and I end up without any resolution.” Or else, I refuse to let it go because I haven’t gotten resolution and then I get very angry and start yelling at YOU.
She ended up really getting it, and said she didn’t realize she did that. That it must feel terrible to have someone walk all over my feelings like that. Etc. I said – “Exactly! Thank you!” She then said, so when you say something to me instead of going right to MY feelings I need to ask myself what YOU are feeling and if I don’t know, I need to ASK you what you are feeling. You might get tired of me asking you that.” It feels like I have finally gotten through to her!
I know that some of the things Melissa said in her "Two Day Experiment" posting really apply to us, and I think that sometime soon I will recommend my wife read that post and that we do that experiment. But where I need advice now is in how to express some things that I find myself commonly saying to her using "I statements" that would be less likely to put her on the defensive. Things like:
“It sounds like you are getting defensive.”
“I don’t think you are hearing what I said.”
“I still feel like you haven’t heard what I said.”
“Your tone of voice sounds hostile.”
“Would you please use a softer (or kinder, or more loving, etc.) tone of voice?”
“You have an angry look on your face.”
“I’m looking for some empathy.”
And I’m sure there are others, but these are all I can think of right now.
I really think this is a defensive reaction that comes
Submitted by Aspen on
from a place pretty deep inside (like a protective warning system or something) and that we are inadvertently *setting off* with our comments. What has happened with us is that my husband can completely see the way he escalated things (and he is not the only one who does so, of course) afterward (and he is excellent about the port-argument or upset discussion) but in the moment it seems like an instinctive defensive reaction that he doesn't even realize he is doing. It is VERY hard for him to turn off because he doesn't normally question his emotions or reactions in the moment....it seems to be all instinct.
Yesterday we talked about the situations that come up in my recent forum topic, and it turns out the reason he interrupted me again to clarify why he interrupted the first times was because when I answered him I sounded irritated. And I'm sure that I did, but that said to him that he had to justify himself. When I asked why he couldn't have waited until I was done talking to do that, he just looked surprised...like that option hadn't even occurred to him. He isn't *thinking* about interrupting or why he is...those things come up in retrospect. In the moment he is just reacting, so his goal is to do more questioning of himself before speaks up at those times.
The *code* we have sort of worked out, is that I will say "Honey it sounds to me like you are getting defensive and we arent getting anywhere. Do you think we need to take a break? Or can you tell me what is hurting you about this part of the conversation?" Sometimes that kinda turns off the automatic defense. But as we ended up getting angry over a computer cord this weekend, it clearly doesn't work all the time. <embarrassed>
Suggesting a Break Might Be Good
Submitted by Hoping4More on
I like the idea of suggesting a break. And I will try to use that when I can. But asking her to talk about HER feelings at that moment - what is hurting her at the time and causing her to be defensive - is what I want to avoid. Not that I don't want to hear what is causing her hurt. I just don't want to hear it at the expense of ME being heard, which usually happens when she gets defensive. It becomes all about her - because I am able to see she is getting defensive and usually can feel some empathy about it. I'm wanting to know how I might say something that enables her to stay with me and MY feelings, which she has not been able to do, and which I think is a bif part of why I find myself getting angry so often. I suppose what my question really is, is how do I say things to her in a way that she doesn't get defensive but instead is able to acknowledge and show some empathy for MY feelings, particularly when I am feeling bad because of something she has done (or something I perceive she has done)?
It varies
Submitted by Clarity on
I did bust out crying one time because I knew he was off his meds and frankly, I just had enough. Apparently he didn't mean to hurt me and quickly walked away. He started back on his meds too. It leads me to wonder if he is more likely to understand a more emotionally charged response. Usually, I do need to be more level and even toned but the heightened emotion might underscore the importance of my immediate need. Anger usually doesn't work except for the few times I was at my wits end. Some how he was able to perceive that I was at the end. I've never really thought about this but, as calculated as I need to be, I guess it's like having an emotional strategy as well. I should go into acting.
Just thinking about it...
understanding an emotional response
Submitted by arwen on
Clarity, I've done quite a bit of reading on the web about neurotransmitter activity in the brain. Please understand that I'm no expert, but from what I read, it sounds to me like you are indeed right that a more emotionally charged response has a more profound effect on the ADD brain. This is because a different part of the brain (which seems to be less affected by the mechanisms of ADD) "registers" these greater emotionally charged inputs rather than the parts of the brain that would normally process less emotional inputs.
I've observed this same phenomenon in my husband. The few times I've finally broken down at the end of my rope have gotten through to him far far more than all the discussion and fights.
But I'm not sure going into acting is the solution. You'd have to be a heckuva actor to be believable. If your spouse realizes you're acting, he might suspect any further real breakdown wasn't real after all. Personally, I've found my relationship with my ADD spouse works best on the basis of honesty. Of course, though, there are times when I am truly emotional about our problems -- my normal inclination is to channel it into anger, but I have learned to channel that distress instead into sorrow instead. I don't consider this to be acting -- I really am very upset. This might be an approach that would be more useful to you than acting. . .
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
no, I'm no actress
Submitted by Clarity on
I agree honesty is the best policy. That neurotransmitter information is facinating! I guess we'll have to find a balance that will most likely vary between staying level and highly emotional. I've gone the same route as you with the anger but at times the sorrow can sink into despair and hopelessness especially during a long midwest winter. Thankfully, the sun is out and I'm reminded to be ever hopefull, today anyway... there's always more research and hopefully some real breakthroughs on the way!
Thanks for the info!
similar problem
Submitted by arwen on
My ADD-husband and I went through a similar dynamic problem. I can't offer you any specific strategy, but maybe an insight.
When my husband and I are having our formal meetings, his head is in a certain mindset -- not just working to focus on the topics under discussion, but also trying to be open-minded, to not make assumptions or jump to conclusions -- he is working to keep his emotions damped down, *just like he would in a meeting at work*. In other words, we try to create the same kind of *impersonal*, *unemotional* environment in our formal meetings as he has learned to deal with appropriately at work, so that he can implement the same business manner and thinking in these formal meetings at home as he does at work -- even if we are discussing emotions, we try to keep it as calm as possible.
We do this because he has so much trouble damping down his reactions outside of this meeting setting during his SAD season. If we are engaged in so-called "ordinary conversation" and we start getting into "why do you do that?" areas, the conversation will escalate in just the kind of ways you describe in your situation. My husband can't just damp down his reactions at the drop of a hat -- he has to have the right context.
My point is, maybe you first need to establish some kind of context/framework for your discussions in which your spouse is less inclined to be reactive and more inclined to listen with an open mind, just like we mimicked my husband's work meetings. This might be a framework you would originally set up in the presence of a counselor, and practice with your wife at the counseling session at first. As she becomes more proficient, then maybe you can trigger that discussion environment through the use of the code word. (In our case, we knew that the "meeting mode" idea would work, because my spouse and I used to work at the same company, and I'd seen him in action at meetings and knew what he was capable of in this environment.)
The code word idea never worked worth a hoot for my husband and me, until we set up our formal meetings. Nowadays, when we get into a feedback cycle, I can say to my husband, "I think we need a mini-meeting", and he can "change his head" into less reactive meeting mode. I'm not saying I think you need to do exactly what we do, but I do think you may need to *practice* a listening, less reactive dynamic on topics where you have little conflict or emotional response and work your way up to bigger issues -- and typically practice with another person doesn't usually happen on an impromptu basis, it usually has to be pre-arranged.
Regarding the idea of "taking a break", my husband and I do this too sometimes. But because of his procrastination tendencies, we have a rule that if we decide to defer further discussion until we are calmer, we set a specific day/time to renew the conversation. That way he is not taken by surprise and has time to gather his thoughts before we talk again, and it doesn't get put off forever because he's not feeling unready.
Hope something here helps!
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Verbal Cues
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Yours is the perfect situation to start developing some verbal cues to stop repetitive-situation arguments from escalating. Since you have now identified a specific problem, take the next step, which is sitting down and agreeing that it's desirable not to continue repeating the pattern. Once you've agreed to that, it's a short step to creating a cue that you both agree can halt escalation. So, for example, you might say "I'm starting to feel that you're not hearing me, so can we circle back a bit?" Whatever words the two of you work out (it could be "hamburger!" or something silly - as long as it has a specific, agreed-upon meaning) the concept is this - when one or the other of you uses these words, the other partner stops and thinks, then de-escalates.
Try it - it works!
I Tried Doing Something Different
Submitted by Hoping4More on
I realize if I don't want things to escalate as they usually do, I need to do something different. And this morning I did.
First, some background: I have told my wife over and over again to please not muss my hair when it is wet because then it dries funny - she frequently does this when she kisses me good bye in the morning. I know it probably seems very picky to my wife, and maybe it IS picky. And I know she probably thinks "Here I am showing my love for you by putting my arm around you when I kiss you and all you can think about is how your hair looks." But the fact is, I AM picky about my hair, and I have asked her repeadedly to please not do it.
Anyway, this morning, as my wife was kissing me goodbye up comes her arm and I said "Watch the hair, hon." And her response was to step back, look me in the eye, make a face and roll her eyes. I guess that is one of her "defensive" responses. So, I clearly and calmly said "honey, when you roll your eyes like that it makes me feel like you think what I just said was stupid." She further defended herself by telling me she wasn't going to mess my hair, and demonstrated where she would have placed her arm. I know better, though - because every time she puts her arm up as she kisses me her hand goes right for the back of my head. :-)
In the past, I might have engaged with her about how I disagreed, that I KNOW she was going to mess my hair. But I didn't. Or I might have escalated the situation by espressing my anger and frustration in feeling that she didn't respond to what I was feeling, but instead defended her actions. But I didn't. I basically just said - "OK, bye honey. Have a good day."
Then I sent her an email that said:
"Hi honey,
When you roll your eyes at me like you did this morning it makes me feel like you are minimizing what I am saying, like what I am saying does not matter. Like what I think is silly, stupid and not important, and so I would appreciate it if you did not do that.
And then when I tried to tell you that, your reply that you DON'T mess up my hair was not in response to what I said about your rolling your eyes. And so I felt like you did not care that it makes me feel like you think what I said was stupid when you DID roll your eyes. So it feels like I just got a one-two punch of you not hearing what I was trying to say. And I find that very frustrating.
I love you!"
I realize now that I should probably have started the email by saying something about how I appreciate that she makes it a point to show she loves me when she kisses me goodbye in the morning by putting her arm around me. I'll make it a point to remember that next time.
I haven't gotten a reply from her yet, so the jury is still out on how she will respond. But however she responds, I feel like I have been successful in doing what I did because I avoided escalating our exchange into an argument which might have gotten very heated had I latched on and pursued it in the moment, as I might have in the past. Which would have resulted in us both feeling very upset as we parted this morning.
I just let out a big sigh as I thought "Wow. This is really WORK." But I know it is worth it and I also assume that it gets easier with practice.
Congratulate you on changing your reaction
Submitted by Aspen on
since I know how HARD that is to do! And I am so happy for you that you discovered email is working for you in being able to share your feelings in a way that will be heard better. My caution is for you to avoid using it for every feeling of irritation because then it will lose it's ability to help you as I feel she will start to ignore your emails.
You have a right to feel picky about anything and everything. I get the sense you might be a fellow perfectionist since you have posted several of these things that you feel strongly about changing. I have some of those things too, but you have to be careful about hitting her with too many of them at the same time. Just in the recent past you have been asking her to change the way she communicates (sound necessary!), the way she takes off her clothing, the way she touches your hair, and several other things. I think you may have to introduce some of these changes a bit slower....especially the ones with less importance to you. And I don't know about your wife's attitude, but my husband's time frame for changing things that are ONLY important to me and not to him is much slower than something that he feels is important.
I know everyone is different, but I just want to be sure you don't overwhelm your wife during this time when she is willing to work on her ADD because if she decides it is hopeless, that she can never please you, that it is too overwhelming for her.....if she shuts down from thinking one or more of those things then you are back to square 1 with several previously working techniques now useless.
I don't really like to read someone posting "I have more important things to worry about" in response to an issue a poster has in his/her life because what matters is what is that person finds a way to work through HER worries. My husband holds a job, cares how I feel, recognizes that he has ADD and is working on it, and we do not have children....sounds similar to your situation from what I've read. We are in a different place than a lot of people who can't get their mates to recognize their ADD and want to work on it.
I regret to say that I had that thinking of "She is kissing you goodbye and you are correcting the way she does it?" But consider how serious the hair issues is with regard to being kissed goodbye because it isn't inconceivable that she could decide to resolve it by saying "Fine I will keep my kisses to myself!" That actually be my first reaction before I calmed down too. I agree your real issue is the eye rolling which is disrespectful and I understand that and wouldn't want my mate doing that to me. The flip side is that I have earned some eye rolling in my time and sometimes it helps to be able to laugh about something that isnt' real important. Some mornings my husband leaves for work at 2 am and he always comes and kisses me goodbye....frequently I hardly wake up other than to mumble "goodbye". The last 2 months when I haven't been feeling well, his kissing me goodbye has woken me up fully and then I was up to 4-5am. I debated asking him not to kiss me goodbye until my sleep issues were worked out, but then I feared he'd be out of the habit and wouldn't start again! I figure it is a couple mornings a week, I eventually get back to sleep, and I get a lot done in that 2-3 hours! I didn't mention it and I just realized as I post this that I haven't woken up in the last week or so. It wasn't something (to me) that was worth risking him getting out of the routine of kissing me goodbye.
You hair is important to you...I get that. Is it honestly true that if she touches it when it is wet that it absolutely WILL be mussed all day? Could she kiss you the way she wants and then finger comb your hair back into place. Could you finger comb it, or if that doesn't work, actually comb it back into place before it dries strangely? I don't know how long your goodbye kisses are but if they are long enough (or hot enough :) ) to dry your hair all by themselves, it might be worth it to have strangely dried hair HAHAHAHA
I am not trying to minimize your feelings, but I'd like you to avoid a mistake I made. As I saw my husband working on more things I kept mentioning more things. He got overwhelmed entirely. Turns out when I mention something, whether it is giving me tax information that I need or shutting the cabinet doors he leaves open all over the kitchen, he gives it all roughly the same importance in his head. His thinking is "If this is important enough to her to mention then it must be really important for me to try to do", but as a perfectionist I was randomly mentioning lots of things with very little importance other than irritation to me.......it takes me 5 seconds to shut the cabinet door or to throw away food packets that he opens and leaves all over the kitchen. I left off worrying about those things temporarily while the more important things were becoming habits. Now we are at a place where I feel I can mention the smaller stuff because the big stuff is done, and I understand how irritating it can be to be posting about one of those things and getting a response that sounds like "Get over it you control freak" but more nicely worded HAHAHA
Point Well Taken
Submitted by Hoping4More on
Thanks, Aspen. I will try to be more intentional about deciding what I need from my wife vs. what I want from my wife. I can live with mussed hair but not with not being heard. I can not live with my feelings being invalidated and dismissed. And so I am working on ways to communicate them so that I don't put my wife into "defensive mode." (I just bought Harriet Lerner's book - The Dance of Connection - maybe that will help.) You are absolutely right that my hair isn't really that a big deal, tho I am picky about it :-) It's the fact that after making a request my feelings are ignored, belittled, dismissed, etc. that is the issue. It could have just as easily been about something else. I agree you are right, though, that I should be more selective about the requests I make.
Thanks also for acknowledging my feelings and not minimizing them. :-)
defensive girfriend
Submitted by joeblack on
my first time in here but but hit goes hope someone can help i ask my girlfriend she know a guy on facebook and she say she does not know him then she gets so ofensive and we start geting mad one another we almost broke up even she does not know him she still friends with him dont know what to think this is just one of them everything i say or a joke anything she always gets defensive and say i did not do anything wrong. sorry for my english but im from spain