How do partners get done what unquestionably needs doing, if one or both of them have frequent ODD reactions?
Some expectations, demands or requests that a partner do something are about things that can be skipped. Definitiely, if it's ODD reaction happening, I choose to let some things go.
Other things are basic to living or basic to the future of the relationship, or basic to my or our or his safety, and cant be skipped. I'm particularly interested in anyone's successful ways of dealing with this basic need kind of situation, in which the partner receiving the request has to act, or things wont get done, but what is happening instead of action is blocking, refusing, forgetting, repeated ad infinitum
Success to me means that the need for safety, shelter or whatever it is in fact gets taken care of.
I'll take any ideas for how to address this kind of dead end. Here is what I've tried that hasnt worked
1) Being patient, quietly repeating the need for action on his part in clear simple language. It hasnt worked to wait awhile, try again. It hasnt worked to putnit in writing. Tackling it this way has been Groundhog Day. Quiet persistence on my part has had little impact
2) Describing, quietly, the impact of the ODD on me. My description of my feelings or my difficulty doesnt move the ball of getting the thing done forward.
3) Blowing up at my partner. He just blows up back, it wrecks us both and we both end up negatively conditioned to deal with the problem that requires something of us both
4) Describing why the thing needs doing and why it requires him to do something. Hasnt worked. ODD doesnt seem to be affected by information
5) Giving up on my partner and just adding his part that needs doing to my own part. This is not workable for me, the situation demands his doing something about it that I cant do for him. And I sense that giving up on my partner which to me is somewhat different than having a realistic acceptance of what both of us can and cant do, is very dangerous to our relationship. In any event I'm talking about unavoidable needs that require action on my partner's part, I cant do his part for him, but he blocks and refuses more than a little, and the ODD holds the situation hostage.
PoisonIvy, shout out to you. You were much in mind as I wrote this.
Then it's not a coincidence
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Then it's not a coincidence that I thought of my ex-husband while reading this, Chevron! Specifically, I thought about the fact that, on the infrequent occasions when I expressed my frustration about him not looking for work, he said that when I said that, his brain told him to do the opposite. Aargh! I have no suggestions, only sympathy.
Most men will rescue...It's testosterone driven...
Submitted by c ur self on
You say here that information doesn't seem to work...I can see that, especially if the way it's delivered is in a harping type monolog form (no accusation here, I've read your post)...I'm not ODD, (I don't guess) but, I can procrastinate with things I judge as insignificant to safety, comfort or is just unnecessary to put at the top of a list...Although truthfully speaking, once I finally accomplish these ignored tasks, in my heart I think...This should have been done long ago....
So what could you have done to move me earlier? Probably the top thing here would be to feel the need to rescue you...Or if you make me feel unneeded or unnecessary...My manhood LOL....
Two things that I put off in the house was replacing a light switch that was a three way and wasn't necessary to cut the light off and on...And for some reason I went years with a piece of tape over it....Secondly was the sink sprayer, my late wife asked for years for me to upgrade our faucet system and give her a new sprayer...(in my mind, we had a dish washer, which I used as much as her) I finally did it after she was passed away. And my present wife asked for it a year or so....I really regret going so long in both situations...(One of my daughters made me feel bad, when she came by and saw it...And was quick to point out that her Mother had requested it for years :(...)
If my wife was over there taking the cover off the switch with idea's of changing it and possibly (probably) getting electrocuted, it would have gotten done way sooner...Rescue!...If my wife was under the sink about to flood the kitchen floor w/ tools and a flashlight, it would had gotten done sooner..Rescue!....Or if my wife would have approached me in a less stressful way. And explained it this away....Husband its very obvious that these two items in your mind or not critical to life and living...You do not view them as a hardship or as important...But, to me the effects or very negative and it would mean so much to me, if you would do these jobs...I will even go with you to Home Depot to get the replacement parts and I will hold the flashlight for you while you work. I think that would do it:)
Also she could have embarrassed me and hired it out when I wasn't home...I would have been angry to begin with, but, I'm sure I would have gotten the message...And I couldn't say anything, it' wasn't like she hadn't been patient and long suffering w/ her request...
When it comes to more important matters and ODD, I think you have a nice list of things you have tried...I deal with a W who takes the same approach about most every thing that I took w/ the light switch..***If it doesn't benefit me, pleasure me, or entertain me then you are on your own for the most part***...I don't know if that is ADHD, ODD, unconcern, the lack of love and commitment, or what?...I've just learned to worked around it the best I can (self sufficiency has always been a strength). I do make requests, and ask nice at least once.;)..If that doesn't move her...Then I work around it or if it's intimacy/Sex (self sufficiency isn't of much use here) I just do without...
You didn't give examples, but, if I were you, and based on how you have described it here...I would change the way I think and feel about it...I would get him to set down without distraction for a moment and layout what you see as the issue he is avoiding...And ask him if he see's the same need for his action as you do...And if he say's NO than I would ask him to share with you how he feels about the issue...If he say's Yes, then I would just ask him what he plans to do about it, and if he would share his feelings with you on a time line or his feelings on urgency in the matter?
Really I don't see much more that you can do, other than make it clear to him, if he doesn't think any action is needed by him...That his feelings in this (or these) particular matters is unacceptable to you...You have the tools to do that in a informative way that isn't offensive....
If it's counselor worthy; seek to get some support and other opinions....
Blessings...
C
Thank you, C
Submitted by Chevron on
I agree that harping never helps. I dont think it works for either of us to use embarassment either.
Yep Chevy....
Submitted by c ur self on
If one of us refuse to show up, (meet our obligations) our anger, manipulation efforts and tricks usually just add to our own mental anguish...If kindness doesn't move me, it's not your responsibility. You've done the right thing!
When we use labels like ADHD, or ODD etc...Even though many minds are very obviously truly effected...It's still my responsibility to be respectful and kind, even if it means walking away from my spouse with out closure on simple issues... Issues that you and I might be able to set down and come to agreement on in 5 minutes...And in many cases, in healthy relationships, where both spouses have the ability to show up daily...Many of the things I deal with are never issues to begin with...
This alone was so difficult for me to come to grips with my present wife, and it's caused me much pain, and I've hurt my spouse needlessly trying to put my thinking in a mind that was unwilling or unable receive it....I've repented from that way of living...I really have no answers past kindness (other than ignore it, or step over her and do it)....I wish I could add more that would be helpful to you!
If a mind refuses for what ever reason to direct productive Energy into the issues of life and the marriage...It's a very slippery slope for the spouse to effectively change that....
C
1) Men wanting to "rescue":
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
1) Men wanting to "rescue": my ex told me more than once that he could barely take care of himself (i.e., so that taking care of or "rescuing" his wife and children was clearly out of the question).
2) My ex was in therapy on and off for years. He said he learned in therapy that his brain was responding oppositionally to my requests. I think he just didn't want to look for a job because all the time (i.e., the vast majority of the time) when his extended unemployment wasn't being discussed, his brain didn't respond oppositionally and force him to start filling out job applications.
3) My ex chose to move in with his parents. His father is self-centered, selfish, and a bully, including toward my ex. As an example, almost every time, if not every time, my ex has been away from his parents' home in the past five or six years, that is, with me or our children, his father has called and asked him to return early. And most times my ex complied. He griped but he complied.
So, yes, I changed the way I thought and felt about it. My ex doesn't want to fulfill my needs, doesn't want to be with me, and doesn't want to communicate with me, and I decided it was better to not be married to a person like that than to be married to a person like that.
Hi PoisonIvy
Submitted by c ur self on
As we grow up we are molded by our environment and the people who speak into our lives...So you pretty much said it all here w/ your description of your former Father in Law...You're husband's actions are a perfect image of the results of being molded by his Father....If I was living like your Husband...I would hope my parents would tell me to get my Butt home, Get a Job, step up and be a Man and take care of my commitments and responsibilities....
You had to move on once your husband abandoned you and his commitments.....We would all have to do the same...I'm proud of you!
C
Brain
Submitted by Chevron on
expressed my frustration about him not looking for work, he said that when I said that, his brain told him to do the opposite. ....He said he learned in therapy that his brain was responding oppositionally to my requests"
: D I've had voices in my head giving me a hard time, but thus far my whole brain hasnt gotten bossy with me.
PI, the weird and touching thing is that I'm betting that your husband in his own words was describing directly: he heard something he didnt want to do, and some thing in him directed him not to do it. Like his brain talking to him.
But who can live with so much negativity and refusal? Really, who?
And the thing is, refuseniks and victims are making choices As you say of your husband. I'm glad for you that you saw that hard as that reality is. He chose what he chose. I think he lost a gem in you,my opinion
Before I opened the thread and off and on today, I've been reading around on the net about ODD. The usual kind of thing on therapeutic sites. Quizzes.... Russell Barkley has a Youtube on Adhd And ODD that gets into emotional lability and some other things. Where it comes from, what perpetuates it...
A self test apparently for professionals checking their knowledge of ODD against professional descriptions of it had a question on it, does ignoring ODD behavior or otherwise not reinforcing it lead to a decline in ODD? I guessed yes, but the answer was no. So the person with ODD habits is the master of his/her ship, and is the one to tame or not that talking brain. No news to you. But it was to me.
Which again leads me back to the question in the title of my first post. If ODD is such an embedded habit, how to get things done when things need to get done and I cant do all of it, he has to do some?
And the reading about ODD again leads to telling you again that I respect the high road you took. I hope that slowly, things are better for you. You've been through a lot and did well in hard times.
My husband and I are pretty good over all, and learning, which I'm grateful for. .I do fear what will happen when Jupiter aligns with Mars, so to speak(if you know that old song from the Sixties)and our waning powers combo up with our congenital challenges.... I have a pretty good idea where his ODD came from...he needed something like it to get through some very hard times, early on. Thats where my stubbornness can come from too. If the two of us in our different lives hadnt persisted we wouldnt have made it into adulthood. 'Nuf said on that. He and I have to live now.
Nuf said...we have to live now...ain't it the truth:)
Submitted by c ur self on
(does ignoring ODD behavior or otherwise not reinforcing it lead to a decline in ODD? I guessed yes, but the answer was no. So the person with ODD habits is the master of his/her ship, and is the one to tame or not that talking brain.)
This is an eternal truth!...If it wasn't we wouldn't need near as many prisons, there would be little need for behavior suppressing drugs, we would have a lot less suicide, and a lot less divorce...Most professional help is just pointing out what that brain already knows...You just pay for having it explained to you and that pretty label attached...
Every book you read that offers help is completely useless to help unless that one thing is there....The brain that is carrying that pretty label must want it.....Of course just learning about it helps those of us who aren't professionals to understand it....So we at least have some idea of what is destroying our lives. LOL...And we can talk to ourselves and post about acceptance, understanding, and not creating more conflict for ourselves by engaging and seeking change in hopeless situations....Yep we all must deal w/ our own voices...Thinking Thoughts = The Feelings with us; which = the behaviors that poor out of us...
There's a verse of scripture that encourages us to bring every thought into obedience to holy spirit....It's quiet obvious after 60 years of life as a human and living with and around other humans what this verse was meant to save us from...Ourselves!
Nuf said...It's bed time:)
C
So, to answer your question:
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
So, to answer your question: how to get things done if they need to be done and you can't do them all and your partner won't contribute? You pretend that he or she doesn't exist and you ask yourself what you would do in the particular situation if you were literally alone and then you do that, despite that you are not literally alone.
I remember the moment when I realized my ex (at that time still my husband) was irrelevant to my life, not because I wanted him to be, but because he wanted to be.
Chevron I Just Made a Post to Go Right Along w/ This
Submitted by kellyj on
Everything you've said here I can comment on myself. From having ADHD ( hyperactive and yes ODD ) as a young child and into my teen years but somewhere in there, this declined and I can speak to why and how that was for me and contribute to a couple of things you've said here. I've watched the videos of Dr Barkley's with particular interesting in reflecting on myself, and he was really the one who mentioned ODD as almost a predictable thing having ADHD and what I remember him saying was....they are still not absolutely sure, if this is part of the inherent nature of ADHD or if it's more nurture and your upbringing. In in light of the mention by Poison Ivy about her ex and his father the bully and the child and how he chose to return to that environment most likely due to some pressure ( I'm thinking and remembering some past things she's said ) that this conditioned role one finds themselves in....created by a parent like that...is a set up for a catastrophic lack of insight and lack of doing thr right thing with a child who has ADHD. The bottom line with that is.....if it were a normal child, one might apply a certain approach or reward and punishment. If you have an abusive person who's a bully type ( a weak kind of cowardly type ) they are going to make that worse not better. Not only are they going to make that worse...but they are going to rationalize to that child, the way things should be.....which is a lie completely ADHD or not. That parent, is going to present to a child...a completely distorted view of the world according to them and how that fits them...in service of them...of course? A dominating , un-nurturing environment....full of conflicting ideas and hypocrisy that a child is not capable of seeing or understanding and they will accept what it not acceptable and that is where that conflict comes from I think? I got that too, but I also had other opportunities to see my way out of it. I was at least....able to be around enough other kids and families to see how mine was different and how I was treated differently as well as my friends by their parents to question what I saw at home? I did not wholesale buy into what I was hearing and seeing, and even though I was oppositional....I was aware of my own resistance and making decisions on my own about that? Decisions and conclusions that went contrary to what I was being told or how I was being treated. I had some means to use as a baseline ( a good solid one ) that said...."this is messed up and something is wrong". I didn't know what exactly....but I knew enough to know that it was not all me compared to what I saw or how I was treated by other adults, that's the bottom line. And a lot of those other "good examples" came from coaches or fathers who were coaches in swmming and in Baseball....who were consistent in their reward and punishment which came through to me as "fair" . When you are in an environment, that is "not fair"...and there are lots of discrepancies and hypocrisy coming through to you as you see your parents and how they treat you....this could mess you up, ADHD or not....but now add ADHD to the mix. As an adult and hopefully sooner...you do come to realize that life isn't fair ( hopefully ) and you realize that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do, and sometimes when it's not fair to you at all? These neglectful moments where ( if things were normal or healthy ) fair would be consistent with few discrepancies. But in an environment, where the "Man is King of the Castle" if he's a weak King....he will be weak in character too. Someone along those lines, will take advantage of the situation, and make it fair for the King first at all times, and then you will get what's left over. And with a kid with ADHD....in a perfect world...that kid would have a different set of expectations placed on them them other kids in terms of rewards and punishments and getting some slack at times. Slack in terms of punishment means...instead of punishment....educating and redirecting them and making them do the right thing. In other words.....not letting them off the hook....but realizing they are not doing it to be willfully disobedient or even are aware that they are. These smaller everyday offenses ( as I can see myself back then ) come more in the form of being a little unruly.....playing loud and making noise, being inconsiderate of others in what might be seen as rude or boorish, but in respect to a kid with ADHD....they aren't being rude or boorish...they just simply aren';t aware or aware of enough of themselves to be able to even realize what they are doing is affecting others negatively. These are not major offenses like breaking some major law or rule. This is just overtly annoying and kind of disrepectful and not allways understanding that their need to express themselves outwardly is overriding their means to simmer down or bring that behaviior down to an acceptable level. In other words....it's not the behavior itself that is the offense or breaking any rule or law per se....it's just an extreme version of what might be acceptable....but done too much, too overtly and too intensely that is causing the problems. I still have to watch this and watch this closely since it's still a tendency I have to not pull the reigns in at times but I also have gotten really good and listening and watching for feedback or ques that tells me when I've gone too far. That is just part of having ADHD I've found but different peoples tolerances will vary there too. For some, it's no big deal and they can let that go since it's just not a problem for them:? If it gets really bad, they don't react like it's the end of the world..and usually will call you out and just tell you to knock it off or quit already. Every time you are punished or made to pay a price for what you cannot even see as anything wrong ( some law or rule that has been broken ) that you know you didn't do....at that point....it's not a matter or right or wrong and is not a moral or ethical dilemma. It's too subjective and variable from one person of the next....to get a sense of what to draw the line....especially when there is none to begin with...so you feel you are being treated unfairly which as a child with ADHD ( if everyone understood and knew exactly what to do ) then it would be unfair...and it would be wrong...to punish a kid who had ADHD for what they cannot know or see? If the lines are invisible to them....they are not going to connect the punishment to the offense they did and they are going to feel like they are being picked on or abused or simply treated unfairly. That is the set up, for ODD right there. And even dspite, my own father having some real issues himself, he was all about exactly punishment...as he use to say..."it will make a man out of you" because that's what he got...and as he said "it made him tough". Well, I can say one thing for sure and that almost goes without saying.....if the goal is to make a kid "tough" , belligerent and ODD...then that mind set of exacting punishment and negative reinforcement is exactly how you'd do that. That was my father...rationalziing his own bad behavior....but in terms of fairness....he was actually pretty fair about it despite anything else I could say? The rules were simple and pretty easy to understand with him and even though it was done at gun point....it was also pretty fair even though...not fair to me...because the expectations were beyond what I was capable of. That;s what not fair...but no one knew that of course. And even though my mon ( who I'm sure had ADHD )...even though she had some funny ideas and she was more of the one who didn't have clear and set conflicting expectations based on all her phobias and internal fears ( irrationality and irrational thinking at times ) She showed at times....an amazing ability for grace and to do just the opposite what she grew up with as a child herself. There were these times when it really really counted and it wasn't petty stuff and where she could see what I really needed despite those strict and harsh quidelines that she grew up with. She ( unlide my father ) all by her lonesome ...instituted or empathized in a way.....where she departed from the standard ( like my father ) and somehow had learned herself I think ....what she shouldn't do with me....as it was done to her? My mom,,,,went the opposite...of what one might suspect....because she could see in me I think...what she saw in herself...and she somehow knew the right thing to do. When it really mattered and counted for me...she came through for me without knowing how, why or even what to do....which came down to real Love and understanding...and just throwing the rule book in the toilet. My dad would get furious with her, for in his mind....letting me off the hook. But she knew herself that somehow that was not what she should do...;and did the opposite instead. And when it came down to the opportunities I did have.....I had the chance to do it for myself, and make a choice that was my own..and I was treated more like an adult...with some real adult expectations including with my mom....BIG on manners and politeness and etiquette to the point of nauseam and even went over board. Her own obsessive ways actually worked in some case because of the constant repetition in the areas of manners and not letting me off the hook for a minute. Later when I got older it went too far and that was a problem that only made the ODD worse...but in fariness to my mom....the intention was clear and well defined. She was not doing it as much for her ( even though some ) what I was required appeared reasonable...and with good intention that was easy for me to understand. Fairness, reasonableness in a consistent way for the most with a great deal of forbearance, forgiveness and even not so intorant ( not so much LOL ) grace was involved. That and an very good understanding about guilt and shame. Where guilt and shame was the primary currency my dad used all the time....my mother almost never used guilt or shame as a weapon or means to manipulate you and she was really great in not doing that? In fact...an out and out vocal advocate of not using shame or guilt as means to teach me things.
So even though....the ODD was there when I was younger...and even if I was a little behind....by the time I got to a teenager those behaviors I had learned to not do..and do the opposite instead. As something I learned and was guided away from and done in a way that was consistent enough and reasonable enough so I could succeed with praise and reward from my mom. My dad was not at all into reward and he was stingy and not giving ..and that was the difference even though he was fair. Between the two.....I learned how not to be ODD on the outside and learned how to behave overtly ....do's and don'ts and was made aware of these things along the way though a number of failures with some grace involved. And is you read the literature on just ODD....it does say that this is normally a childhood disorder, not one that carries into adulthood.
This is what I have to say about that. The resistance you feel..and this overwhelming feeling at times that says "I don't want to" is there and that is real and a lot of things can feed into that but, basically when push comes to shove and it gets right down to it? Life is harder, having ADHD. Things are harder and more of a struggle and it takess more work and effort to get past that....and make yourself or force yourself to do it anyway. It is HARD.....and harder for someone with ADHD...than it is for everyone else. But....hard....does not mean ....can't. It's still a choice, and like you siad..;.when it comes to ODD only.....what is hard...is what you have to do. And if you never learn to do what is HARD...and you always take the easy route..then I suppose....when you get older....you would set yourself up to take the easy rode at all times...;and simply avoid what's hard because.........."I don't want to" And I suppose, if you had parents who set it up where "they didn't do anything they didn't want to do".....then "I don't want to"...is acceptable and not only acceptable but possibly shown as something that is actually good or Okay? Like having a big chip on your shoulder and just waiting for someone to come knock it off. It really is extreme victim mentality that says....."everyone is out to get you, and everyone is just an asshole. They 're all mean, and it's not fair...and we're the fair ones so we won't make you do anything like those meanies out there. All those meanies, who make you do things you don';t like or don't want to do....so were not like those meanies who are so unfair!! Not in this house....we are all going to be nice to each other and no one is allowed to be mean so if you don't want to do something....don't let anyone make you do anything you don't want to do"....or at least...that attitude gets reinforced...by the very people who don;'t want to do it!!! LOL It comes from a pervasive victim mentality and a Can don't.....instead of a Can do....attitude and it really does amount to "spoiling"....and never making or forcing anyone to do anything. This is kind of where I start to have a problem with PC going too far. If it's not a predudice or an injustice...and just a means to build someone up by in essense...bring the better or the best people down to make it even.....this has some dire consequences and breeding ODD is one of them. That an victim mentality that gets ingrained if the entire family or circle or group...is all doing the same thing together. It is in essense...taking one extreme...and countering it by going the oppostie of extrme and the pendulum is swinging way too far one way..and way too far the other way in order to compensate. Compensating....is the probelm.. not the intention. If all your doing is compensating or being part of this yourself....then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution and you need to step outside of this dynamic yourself. You can't do anything about this yourself in an effective way...if you are inside the cycle or pattern..and playing into yourself.
So to boil this down for you, what you said here is your own insight into this I have a pretty good idea where his ODD came from...he needed something like it to get through some very hard times, early on. Thats where my stubbornness can come from too. If the two of us in our different lives hadnt persisted we wouldnt have made it into adulthood. You can see where it came form in yourself and why it happened but the reason for someone with ADHD is a little different as I just ran down and explained. There is a fine line between expectations and what is hard....that only one person can answer and it not you for a person with ADHD. They have to answer that for themselves. But to the degree of refusal and what I just got out of my wife just two days ago speaks volumes and she actually said the words out loud.
"I don't want to do that. I don't want to make the effort. I want...and I don't want......it's hard...and it's not fair.....it's hard " My response to you and right where the rubber meets the road here.
"I don't want to do that" Yeah well?
"I don't want to make the effort. I want...and I don't want." And???
It's hard...and it's not fair. Life isn't fair.....and?????
"It's hard " A quick story to tell that I just shared with a former swimmer from high school on Face Book who was not on my private team, but we had the same coach which was my long time coach going all the way back to 6 years old but now I was 17 and I had qualified for State by breaking a 10 year old record and taking 2nd in district. And the thing is, my coach was harder on me, than anyone else on that team mostly becuae high school you have kids who may be their first expereince competing, but he knew me since I was 6 and it's now 11 years later. So now I'm in the big leagues with the best in the state and all that stuff and now it's getting serious..and people ( guys ) were shaving all the hair off your body to go that little bit faster. You've got realize what this meant at that day and time. Guys didn't shave and there was no "man-scaping" back then. It was the 70's and the more hair the better. Hair was manly and as a 17 year old...you just grew enough to start looking like a man that that was some precious stuff to you. You wanted more not less and besides....we all knew the only men who shave their arms and legs ( back then ) which was a doubly wammy if someone saw you and they didn't know any more than that. And no one at that level in high school got that serious aside from those who made it that far. And no one else a school actually pays that much attention to swimming as it wasn't like football or basketball....so the first thing anyone noticing you've shaved you legs....is not going to register as for swimming and mostly no one even would think that so this was kind of a big deal. So here I was I shaved my whole body, except for my arms since I figured....people can see my arms...but they won't notice my legs or the my chest since they aren't going to see those parts in class right? So I come out of the shower room and walk up to my coach...and he looks at my arms and says "So, I guess you don't want it bad enough"
How I reacted that that, was a walked right back into the shower room and shaved my arms. At the end of the day, I set new record and beat the one I had set the week before. Like I said....I had ODD as a child., but somewhere in my teen years....I stopped doing that anymore. I don't have the answer.....but at the end of the day.....ODD is a choice in my mind and you have to choose...or like they say...."shit or get off the pot". I don't get it, from where I came from either including all the reisitance that I still have to this day. That doesn't go away and it's still hard. That hasn't changed.
J
Sharing Something I Shared with My Wife
Submitted by kellyj on
Yesterday, the topic turned once again to what is most important and I started to bring up the Big Rock Little Rock concept with my wife by drawing and she hates when I draw which I have never understood what some people have a problem with that? This really annoys some people when I draw pictures or maps or diagrams and they will insist that I explain it verbally. I have a real problem verbally at times which is just a challenge for me what can I say. But I can draw so fast and do quite a good job at doing it, mostly people can understand what I draw just fine nd most people don't mind and even appreciate it if I am trying to convey a complicated issue or process so I don't get not liking it or why that's irritating. I really think it's because they have no control or way to come back from what I draw as in a picture that spells it out completely. You cannot argue with a picture so I got this idea of looking up the video since her interpretation of this concept was a bit different than mine. As she framed it....it' simply about what is most important and the relationship is most important. Well, in her eyes and what is most important to her....I'm not in that perspective as she see's it which is incomplete at best. So, I looked this up and I didn't actually know who even came up with this concept so , going right to the source....my wife and I watched this together. When it was done I simply said....this was what I was going to draw, but you didn't me to. As I pointed out to her,.....everyone has a bucket and......you can't put two people into one bucket which clearly it did not say that, At all!!! And her answer was, I don't want to talk about it. That's fine with me. A picture speaks a thousand words anyway and she cannot stop me from drawing. If she refuses to look at the picture, I have nothing left to say. Apparently, her idea of how that worked was not exactly what Steven Covey was saying. And I made sure to say....."this was the guy who came up with the concept". She didn't appreciate that because her source and what she remembered was different as she said, but that's just too damn bad and I wanted to make sure that I went right to the source so there could be no arguing which she didn't try. That is not being mean, it's simply a statement of fact and the truth. The truth hurts as they say, I didn't hurt her even though she acts like it's me doing it to her sometimes. Nothing I can do about that if I am speaking the truth. If she doesn't want to hear it...then I'll stop and be respectful but that doesn't mean I won't say it, just later, but it will get said. She will not, or cannot stop me very saying what is true no matter how hard she tries. No way, she has no choice there, and she can't take my choice away. I am speaking in terms of choice and always relating to her, what her choices are now and she has many, even if she can't see what they are. I can't make her choose and you only lead the horse to the water trough. You can't make em drink.
https://youtu.be/ZHne8c5qg0g
J, thanks so much
Submitted by Chevron on
Your description of your interior life when you were young and had more ODD, and as you made the shift later, to breaking through your own mental barriers to do things differently is so valuable and kind. Thank you in particular in my case. I'm here to learn to thrive with my very loved husband who has ADHD. I thought it through quite awhile ago and decided to leave a lot of what is private to him and to us offline. Some things I know because he trusted me to tell me, but dont discuss online, some things I dont know because of course I'm not him in particular and furthermore don't have ADHD. Thank you for describing you dealing with what came your way. Y
I believe this: This is what I have to say about that. The resistance you feel..and this overwhelming feeling at times that says "I don't want to" is there and that is real and a lot of things can feed into that but, basically when push comes to shove and it gets right down to it? Life is harder, having ADHD. Things are harder and more of a struggle and it takess more work and effort to get past that....and make yourself or force yourself to do it anyway.
It is HARD.....and harder for someone with ADHD...than it is for everyone else.
On ADHD vs non ADHD matters . Of course there are people with hardships that you don't have. Or that I dont have, in comparison to which my particular hardships pale... but on ths website I do think it needs to be said, loud and clear, that ADHD means having some extra hardship, and some hard personal work to master the hard parts...where most people cant see what you're up against.
But....hard....does not mean ....can't. It's still a choice, and like you siad..;.when it comes to ODD only.....what is hard...is what you have to do. And if you never learn to do what is HARD...and you always take the easy route..then I suppose....when you get older....you would set yourself up to take the easy rode at all times...;and simply avoid what's hard because.........."I don't want to"
A report from somewhat farther along in time than you: nothing gets easier later, unless you learn, gradually, to get freer. Where "I refuse" and "I'm not going to deal with this" is bad enough, now, it will be worse on you later on. "You" is not you, J, it's us people... You and me included.
Thank you, J
Chevron
Thank You, You're Welcome and Your Feedback is Valuable Too
Submitted by kellyj on
Chevron...you make a very good observation and I think this applies to everyone no matter who you are. As you said On ADHD vs non ADHD matters . Of course there are people with hardships that you don't have. Or that I dont have, in comparison to which my particular hardships pale... but on ths website I do think it needs to be said, loud and clear, that ADHD means having some extra hardship, and some hard personal work to master the hard parts...where most people cant see what you're up against.
There are very human traits and qualities within all of this that apply to everyone, but everyone does not have the same "hardships" and the fallacies in our logical thinking, that prevent of from actually understanding this. The rational side of our brains automatically start making assumptions drawing conclusions, unconsciously that are the first and last mistake in our own thinking about things at times. Our emotional wants, needs and desires come from our other side of our brains...is where this conflict originates from in getting what we want and how we go about it. These fallacies of logic or the fallacious arguments we make in our own heads, is the source of conflict I do believe along with the resistance we feel in our bodies to act on what we know is right...but feel that is wrong at the same time. Ambivalence...is something that can only be resolved through learning and experiencing and breaking this down to it's lowest common denominator and working it through in your head. In other words, you have to learn how to process this, and come to a legitimate conclusion which most of us do not do automatically, unless you are faced with a problem with this yourself. All the stigmatizing, blaming, fault finding and suffering ...is merely our own inability to process this irrational feelings and put them together in a logical and understandable way. I truly believe in my heart of hearts....there IS only one way around this and it's not from a lack of Love, lack of ability or even a lack of being smart or intelligent. It's not what people ( you, I or otherwise ) DO.....in essence, all the things that the person you are with does to you, or does to cause you pain and suffering.....it is from a lack of doing something....or the 'NOT DOING"....that is at the heart of the matter always. The NOT DOING....manifested itself into action....and that is what you see and feel coming from anyone else no matter what. So much time and energy and suggestions on how to deal with things.....always has to do with "Doing something" that causes you pain. Even externalized as "inactivity" or "neglect"....is caused by "not doing" something else before that? And I mean, this applies to everyone no matter who you are in terms of one simple definition ( or two ) as the "what is not being done" that would solve the problem since this is all about the ability to "problem solve" at the end of the day. This is not saying, everyone has the ability or capacity to do this because of something esle getting in the way, but that would apply to someone like myself with ADHD which might means taking other steps first or doing a few preliminary steps before you actually to get to this point.
I didn't know I had ADHD until I was 45 or 46 years old officially. I had been seeing my T ( the same one I have now ) for a few years before that official diagnosis. The reason for that was clear to me based on my situation and what was happening, but underneath that all and besides any other thing I can point to.....I had learned how to cope, manage and make it up to that point by myself without knowing anything else. If I had to point to one thing and one thing only, as my only means to figure anything out....it wasn't from my superior knowledge or anything special talent I had or was born with? I didn't actually stand out at all academically except in English and Art even if I could not speak effectively, I could comprehend what I read really well. I wasn't particularly good in math and struggled there too. But the fact is, I learned and that took a lot of time and effort but I was blessed with a very good memory to start with. I think that is what saved me most of all was my memory which appears to work over time and functions pretty well for the most part all things considered? But I wonder know thinking back if I was born with a good memory per se.....only for the fact, that I learned to use it and I think that is really proabaly more accurate than anything else? Use it...or lose it....as they say? So if that's the case and when you condense this all dowjn to one simple term and what I learned which took a lot of effort and hard work to do ( giving myself credit ) "Critical Thinking"......that's the answer.
If I was only given one thing to pick or choose to cover as much ground and in terms of learning what none of us are born doing that we need to do....that is....the thing that we "aren't doing" or thing that "is hard and therefore we don't do". "Think Critically" and learn "Critical Thinking" above all else. In order to problem solve anything, you have to learn critical thinking since critical thinking is the birth place for new ideas, problem solving and emotional intelligence and empathy. Even if you don't have those abilities and even if you are born with this per se or it comes naturally......in my mind, that is the single answer..and what you have to learn how to do. That is the "thing"...that is "not being done" that would sovle the problem for everyone if everyone learned how to do this better, or at all in some cases.
There you go. My answer to save the planet and solve all the problems of the world and for you and I and everyone, in just one single solution all rolled into a nice tidy package. Easier said than done. It is definitely hard, and definitely something you have to learn how to do. It's what saved my ass, countless times!!! LOL I don't know why, they don't make "Critical Thinking" a mandatory requirement as an academic course across the board for everyone? The same a reading, writing and arithmetic
started in first grade.
This would apply directly to my comments to your before:
"Yeah well.......?"
"And.......?"
"And.......?"
There you go, critical thinking would answer those questions for you, if you answer them for yourself first? If all you can hear inside your own head, is your own wants, needs and desires....you are not thinking critically, which is why we draw the wrong conclusions and assume most of all I think.
J
ODD causes...No mental commitment = No attachment...
Submitted by c ur self on
We can be deceived by "Presents"...What I've found out (speaking only from my own experience's of 60 years, who has had two wives, one for 30 years, and presently for 9 years.) A person's physical presents really has nothing to do with their level of commitment...Healthy marital attachments takes a mental commitment, that goes beyond personal desire, or self love...Unless you are fully accepting mentally of the role you are to fill in your spouses life, then you will always lack the ability to attach...The mental aspect (acceptance) drives everything else....(desire, communication, Openness, etc)
So what is the results of this mental holding out, refusal or inability?
Symptoms of ODD....
Communication breaks down often, because the mental non-acceptor will always be offended by their responsibilities....(no ability to discuss them)
Independent living, and Independent decision making will be the standard for this mind...(There is little to no convictions, or ability, for Interdependence and Sharing which creates a disdain for it.)
The activities related to work and responsibility taking in the marriage, will produce negative emotion, resistance, and even depression in those that have no mental commitment or acceptance of their roles...
They will show the most positive energy (we call it a high/Low syndrome) and be at their happiest in the things they desire and perceive as enjoyable (usually frivolity and entertainment activities for women, Sex and entertainment activities for men...(Of course this isn't fixed, but is based on what each individual is drawn to, such as hobbies etc)
This type person will be distant at best in settings of discomfort...(The responsible area's of life)....So you will see this person do things (form habits) to avoid those times....Things like sleeping in on weekends, and off days, or taking hobbies that get them away from their responsibilities, or the person (spouse, bosses) or persons, who would question their lack of commitment in these areas that are offensive to them...
Many who has no mental commitment may stoop to many things (when avoidance isn't an option) to keep from facing their responsibilities in the home and marriage...Examples...gaslighting, Anger and threatening behavior, Blame and Denial are some of the most common....
Infidelity is much easier for this type of mind; If they are highly charged that way...No mental commitment = no healthy attachment, which means little or no conviction to be faithful to the monogamous relationship they have vowed to....
This type mind usually seeks concessions and makes excuses...They will identify their excuses as reasons (or intentional and let themselves off the hook of responsibility with blame) in order to continue to feeling good about their life styles....
When this type mind steps up and does something out of the ordinary for them (job or project) things many do daily with no thought...They may take opportunity to seek affirmation and even use it to point out how much better they can do something than you...This is insecurities and guilt talking....It mirror's immaturity and childish behavior almost identically
This type mind will usually seem fine to many others, even the life of the party...Why?..Because this area of life is where they expend all their pint up energy, the energy they don't use to do much of the work the mundane of daily life requires....This life of frivolity and engaging with others in settings where there is little need for responsibility is what they live for (It's their comfort zone, especially if they feel in control and their self esteem is being feed)......Appearances!...You usually want know that person as it pertains to their energy for daily living and responsibility...And, when the event or gathering is over they will disappear just as fast as they appeared.... When it's time to be responsible to their role as a spouse in your life and in the home....Poof!
The reason this type mind will stay in their relationships (again, this is my opinion based on my life and my experience's) is because they love being married to someone they can count on to be responsible and faithful... They love being enabled... They love being allowed to have their place in the marriage for appearances and easy of living. They also can and do love, as much as a mind that has no mental commitment will allow....
What causes this? Awe! The six million dollar question!....I have my thoughts, but I will reserve them today....I will say in my own life...Lot's of my failings are directly attributed to Sin, and Abuses and the Shame and guilt that always accompanies it...It was just easier for me to put on the mask than it was to be stripped naked to reality, and cry out for healing....But I can tell you it's a false safety!...I find that God is good and faithful and his mercies in Christ are new everyday....
So what is the common effects on their spouses?
Over worked...The norm for the responsible spouse (in the beginning) is to pick up what is being neglected, hoping it will get better....
Unloved...When the desire, and mental commitment in one spouse isn't met with the same level of Openness and commitment...Thoughts and feelings are generated concerning those actions or lack of...Usually, it produces questions in us? What is up with you?? Why??...When that can't be satisfied (refusal to self indict or inability or refusal to communicate their own reality) or accepted, eventually anger, and bitterness takes hold in the heart....
The spouses will take many paths from this point.....Learn and correct is probably the most common...Fix it!...Some...just say see you later Jack or Jill...I didn't sign up for this...Distant bad memory! ...Then there's the person/persons who sticks it out based on their commitment to their own vows. This type person will either learn to accept the reality that is before them, and learn how to go on with their own lives, recognizing and counting their blessings (A life of Thankfulness)...Or, sadly many will turn into miserable victims....
Yep the effects on the partner of a spouse who has no mental commitment and is unable or unwilling to attach in the way it was designed will be effected....What's his is mine!...What's her's is mine!
I wonder how many people have died from loneliness...with a warm body laying on the other side of the bed?? ;)
Blessings
C
.
C.......And What I Said about Critical Thinking
Submitted by kellyj on
ODD causes...No mental commitment = No attachment... and underneath that at the source is no mental connection or continuity. So what is the source and the solution to No mental connection and continuity? = No critical thinking. At the source. That is something you have to learn how to do, but in order to problem solve and work backwards to the problem starting at the source and what's missing? Critical Thinking.....the chain reaction would lead to no ODD and to solve the problem once you learn how to do that. At least that is how I did it, for what it's worth. I can't even say that this is a disability because no one is born critically thinking I beleive....everyone is born without that ability to start with and everyone has to learn in order to problem solve.
J
J you are right....
Submitted by c ur self on
But you have one critical component that is missing in many of us....Willingness to work with in yourself, and on yourself, to accomplish this connection and continuity...You''re mentally committed, and SEE the need to better enhance the whole.. Our.inabilties in this area are usually self-inflicted....Fear of change...
Your a continual learner...Some times when we push past the things we thought we could never accomplish in life (I think about you swimming stories, and my playing baseball after age 40, and riding a bike for 100 miles at age 59) it makes us realize so much can be accomplished if we can just muster the courage to say, I'm in!!!
Yep. You Are So Right
Submitted by kellyj on
I thought about this after you said it and it totally makes sense. I wanted something beyond the discomfort or the work to get to something I wanted and needed. And the only thing standing in between the "thing" and "me" was hard work, discomfort, pain and a lot of frustration and failure but in terms of the "thing" I was after, I wanted it more, the all the things standing in my way? It wasn't even a struggle or a hard decision to make. I was driven, you might say. I had to do it!!! LOL All those things just went with the territory and were really a second thought, not the first one for me. Why did the man, climb the mountain? Because, it was there, and he felt like it and wanted to do it. Like my coach said, "I guess you don't want it bad enough". Apparently, I did? That's why C. LOL
J
Closer and closer
Submitted by jennalemone on
C, I keep trying to formalize the words to say what H and my situation is. THIS, what you wrote, IS the reality of my situation with H. Thanks for putting it into words.
I hear you, Jenna....
Submitted by c ur self on
It wasn't to hard to write, it's reality here also....
I wish it was easier for me to accept the behaviors (ignore)...I've really tried a lot of the things Chevy had on her list...It just feels so personal, no matter what is driving it....Defiant!...They gave it a good name...If I can continue to gain ground on ignoring the behaviors that are insulting and disrespectful without taking it personal or being effected emotionally I will be a winner..:)
Like a 92 year old friend of mine told me...Most people don't know how to win!....He said you have to win the War before the battle starts....With my W...never letting her effect my emotions is a War won!
With the level of adhd she has, to go along with her desire to Control...There are just going to be unfiltered comments and pouting sessions when her attempts to force her will don't work....If I can see it for what it is, and walk away, and not give in to my natural tendency to point it out, and defend myself, for something that she just picked out of the air..(her mind!! it must be a lot of stuff floating around up their)...Then I've won the War...I didn't make her Poopy mine!
Have you ever saw a video on TV where they have words or ideas that are just visable for few seconds, then they fade out, and another word or sentence comes into view?? That must be how my wife's mind works...She will go after something like it was life or death...Then in 5 minutes it doesn't even exist....It's amazing!
C
Defending oneself
Submitted by Chevron on
Deciding not to defend myself when I was accused has been one of the most powerful factors fostering change at home. It's not the only helper of change, but it has helped.
ODD causes...No mental commitment = No attachment...
Submitted by Chevron on
Joining Jenna, agreeing that what you wrote about what ODD actually accomplishes in relation is very insightful. Thank you, C.
I'm always aware that, once one gets past the responses immediately fostered by ADHD wiring, such as attention or emotion fast flare, into habitual behaviors in relation dynamics, that people with and without ADHD can have developed the same dysfunction. Aka anyone can refuse refuse refuse or has to be my way has to be my way has to be my way. I opened the topic out of that, that what I call in myself stubbornness or in someone else looks to me like ODD can really stop a relationship cold on something very basic. What to do then? Acceptance that the other one is blocking and being patient, reasonable, unaccusatory,not inflammatory and persistent doesnt accomplish what the couple needs done. So mine was a how to question, how to deal with impasse
I'm so glad that you explored something else, the relational result of the insistent blocking and non participation
Mulling your excellent post, I'll suggest one more relational impact of ODDing in a relation
ODD causes...No mental commitment = No attachment... + inability to see the impact of one's action on others because in the moment of stubborn refusal, all the refuser sees is him/herself, all that matters in the moment is him/her. The ODD gesture is basically "I will not", gigantic emphasis on the I. The rest of the world including the partner exists only as an impediment to I
...just taking home a little more the implication of your thoughtline about ODD impact in relation. Thanks again, C.
Chevron
Edited: left a word or two out
Chevron..If I call you Chevy, I'm being Oppositionally Defiant:)
Submitted by c ur self on
Nice point, (several nice points,) ADHD isn't a requirement for selfish defiance and entitlement.....Also love your point about "effect blindness" in those moments of ODD....
What ever is producing ODD, (and I think it is different things in different individuals) it is definitely debilitating to progression, and accomplishment...Since you posted the question, I've thought a good bit about it....
Just wondering about root causes....I see things I wonder about....Things that seem to be going on with in the personality of the ODDer, the fixed things, and the mindset in those moments....Things like highly competitive natures, insecurities that seem to foster the need to control the environment and people...Your point about effect blindness fits in here also...People who turn on this ODD can be very thoughtful people at times. So why does someone turn on the ODD??
I think in those moments when my W turns it on, it's about a need to control her environment in order to allow comfort for herself, and dodge fearful and insecure environments, activities or life situations...Also I think I use to do the same thing (under pressure, or when I am self inflicting pressure) until I learned to just say no calmly, without filling guilty for not attempting to comply with every request made of me....
Husband and wives can be the perfect storm for OD to go on....We were...A controllor and a people pleaser!...You learn quickly or get used up....And guess what a people pleaser who is trying to reform will turn to until he learns to say a simple No w/o emotion??...Yep...ODD if he feels threatened by the pressure of manipulation and control....
C
: )
Submitted by Chevron on
Chevy is fine.
I often get my new screen names or passwords from something in my physical environment at the moment I need to come up with one. I once used what was printed on the end of a small bar bell : ) Chevron Probably came from a piece of junk mail that I hadn't discarded yet. Lol not from a can of motor oil, we dont keep those around in the house. In the bin of facts no one needs: I looked it up. Chevrolet means little chevron. Chevy does just fine.
Perhaps more later on ODD. You're right
:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I see you more as pretty red 55 coupe w/ mags...than I do a gas pump:(...LOL....
Crickets
Submitted by weighted on
I have posted "An Interesting take on RESPONSIBILITY" that my husband had but am unable to figure out how to move from him not wanting to take responsibility to wanting to take responsibility. I haven't found the right carrot. I think the carrot for mine is not doing something they don't want to do.