Hi everybody, and thanks so much for your time and emotional support. As I stated earlier in my other post, I am not sure what the diagnosis would be for my chronically angry BF, but now that he has been out of the house for a few days, I am starting to worry and feel guilty about my tough love approach of "get therapy or get out!" approach to his problems. I have had a very hard time caring for our 5 dogs alone the past few days (because of my chronic pain), but I have managed to feed them and keep them from fighting or knocking me down. BF would get so angry just preparing their meals, which he himself made more and more elaborate, but then would bitch every night when he had to cook the meat, chop it up, cook the rice, let it cool, mix it all up, and then FINALLY after about an hour, the poor hungry things get to have their dinner. It became like a tired old worn out mantra that I just quit listening to..."These damned dogs are spoiled, they won't eat regular dog food, I wish we never got so many, and I'm looking forward to when they die off and we only have 1 or 2 dogs." God, I hate talk like that, like these precious dogs that are part of the family, that their deaths would be a "good thing" or a relief for BF...he said the same thing about my conure, which is a small parrot about the size of a robin. He was dismayed when I told him her lifespan is 35 years...she is only 17 now...but he would say after she dies, he might finally get some peace in his life....I lost it one day after him grumbling like that all day, wishing for death like that, and I said "you might get some peace if you would shut up saying such awful things!!!" Of course, he accused me of verbal abuse for my comment.
I have a bad habit of analyzing everything, and I have tried to bend over backwards to see his point of view, but it is hard, because I have come to the conclusion that our brains are wired differently...I see the world as basically good, while he sees it as a life sentence in hell imposed on him by a cruel god. I know he was physically and spiritually abused starting as a small child, but I have lost patience with that excuse for his dependence, moodiness, suspicions, anger, and inappropriate behavior... Even if he was raised by the Manson family (or the Duggar family), his past abuse does not give him the right to repeat it by taking it out on me. He quotes the Bible all the time, even though he says he hates god, and years of this have turned me into an outright, knee jerk atheist...I am so sick of BF having a supreme (evil) being in his mind that is unfair and out to get him...doesn't he realize that if there really IS a god, that BF is no more important than anybody else, and god would not likely take so much of His Holy time to persecute BF...BF is just NOT the center of the universe, but it is very hard to convince BF of that. He engages in a lot of magical thinking. When his sister died of cancer while she was divorcing her very physically abusive husband, BF was so convinced he was getting "messages" from her from the other side, that he badgered her poor grieving daughters to get a lawyer to take up the fight against their dad, when his sister's body wasn't even cold yet, BF was screaming at his nieces to fight fight fight their dad, saying they were stupid if they did not do what BF said to do RIGHT NOW, and that their Mom would hate them from beyond if they did not do exactly what BF said, because he actually believed he was getting messages from her after her death.
He has always said he never wanted to have kids because he knew he would carry on his father's abusive behavior on them. He does not have any children, and has never been married. I should have seen this as a red flag from day one when I met him at age 48...10 years ago. If he can see that his father abused him, why won't he seek help??? I have told him it's not his fault. It seems from my perspective, that BF loves to play the victim and tell the stories to anybody that will listen... so why not tell it all to a therapist and maybe learn some coping skills that do not make everyone around so miserable...Anger does not help...it only alienates me, and then he gets more angry because he can see I'm not going for his bullshit any longer. It is a very vicious cycle, but I guess he would rather throw me away than face his issues head on. I am very anxious and angry with myself right now, because I am worried that i might have done the wrong thing, and he might choose to die because of it. He has threatened suicide many times when we would argue, even if it was not a serious argument from my point of view, he would work himself up despite my efforts to calm him, and threaten suicide.
I am questioning myself this morning...did I do all I could do to help him? I have started to recently lose my temper with him in the last few months, actually yelling and screaming at him to get therapy for his anger, when I regained my strength and ability to walk as I healed from my broken leg....and he can't deal with that even though he would get mad multiple times daily saying how he would like to kill Mr. X or go rape and murder Ms. Y on TV just because he does not agree with them politically, but in contrast I'm not allowed that to have a bitchy tone in my voice around him... "THAT'S ABUSE!!!" he would say. So I stuffed it, and just let him run his mouth and create hours long pity parties, listened to him talk about ex girlfriends, old ex friends, abusive relatives, all of it contained not one drop of insight on his part about his possible responsibility in the problems. Now as i read my first post, I realized that I have not taken any responsibility for our problems, and after reading my own words, I feel sort of like a hypocrite. I have a lot of chronic pain from arthritis and the fall I suffered over a year ago. For the first year after my bad fall, BF had to do all of the cooking, all of the housework, gardening, paying bills, laundry, going to the grocery store, feeding the dogs, everything that required any lifting, etc. ON TOP OF all of the other projects he or we started, like the remodeling of the bathroom, and the tremendous upkeep a 106 year old house built on the side of a mountain requires....so i can see how he might be more stressed because it all fell on him after my injury. He says I only focus on the bad things about him any more, and their may be some truth in that, and I worry what if I am being unfair to him?? Each day, I would wake up in an OK or at least neutral mood, but almost every day, when I would come int the living room with my first cup of coffee to greet him, he would already be in a funk, angry about something he saw on the news or angry about something like what my friends might be saying in my emails. He does not have good boundaries, and when he felt insecure about me, he would read my emails to see if I was bashing him to my friends.
I know child abuse can scar an adult...I know he had no choice who and how they raised him...I cry inside each time he tells me how when he was 4, and he and his sisters were acting up in the back seat during a family vacation, and his dad took him out of the car, sat him on a curb, and drove away, only around the block, but it is obviously going to cause abandonment issues to anyone who was treated like that...to be thrown away when you're a tiny kid, no wonder he sees my criticisms as unbearable rejection. I feel so sorry for him, and I have communicated my concern for him, tried to validate his feelings, I tried to give him all sorts of pleasant experiences, like trips and concerts, so that he could have something to take his mind away from memories of abuse and rejection, but nothing seems to work....If we are in a beautiful national park or something, and I mention the beauty of nature, he will respond with something like, "Well if I was the Creator....I would have never made ants or mosquitoes, because they are nasty, they get in your face, they bite you and you break out, and can get a rash....." Can you guys out there see what I mean? His mind always looks for the imperfect part of the scene, focuses on it, and endlessly describes all of the potential negatives associated with it, all the while ignoring or not being able to relate to the beauty, the serenity and the joy a day in nature can give your soul, even if there are a few ants at the picnic. He is very irritated by smells, noises, and light. He is very picky about what he eats, and has over the years gradually limited his diet to meals that almost exclusively contain bread cheese and beans only, so he lives on Taco bell bean burritos, BUT, each time he orders, he has to tell the worker how to make it, leave out the sauce, leave this out, leave that out, so that there's only beans and shredded cheese NOT nacho cheese....it is always so complicated, the way he places his order for a 7 layer burrito, but then lists the six ingredients he wants to be omitted from his burrito. It is sort of embarrassing for me to go in there and stand at the counter, take 5 seconds to give my simple order, and then it takes a full 3 minutes or so for him to give his order and explain it all to the poor kid behind the counter, while other hungry customers have to wait a longer period of time because his has to be just right.....welcome to my world.
Then I second guess myself, thinking I'm being too demanding (he has said i am like a slave driver), that he is just a pitiful abused guy who has quirks, not as bad as some of the monsters I've read about on some of the posts in this forum. I know I have become much less patient than i was when I first met him, much less willing to hear all of his stories about abuse...after the 20th or 30th time you hear about his dad spanking him when he was 5 and he was laughing instead of crying...the first few times I heard that story, my heart broke for him. Later, I began to feel hatred for his abusive hypocrite dad, and felt like that son of a bitch had been living right here with us, torturing my poor BF. Now I am starting to go numb, to not feel anything as a defense mechanism to shield myself from more pain. I can't help but feel resentment for my BF as well as pity, because he doesn't recognize he has any problem, even though he talks about his parents' cruelty and neglect in long stories almost every day, like they are always there with him just under the surface, ready to rare up and rob him of any potential joy. Well, they are taking my joy now, too, and I went through a lot of therapy to get over my anger associated with my divorce to a cheating airline pilot who gave me STD's and contributed to my heart condition...but my BF's coping skills are so poor, it is hard for me to remember the lessons that were so hard fought for in my own therapy, and I could feel myself slipping into his bleak negative hopeless world, instead of holding on to the progress, stability, happiness, and peace I fought so hard to get back after my divorce. Please give me some ideas out there. I'm tempted to call him today to make sure he did not kill himself, even though I know I shouldn't. Thanks again.
ADHD Boyfriend
Submitted by Lori 67 on
Does he have anything he wants to achieve or enjoys and if so does he seem to want to do them. It sounds like you are thinking too much and micro analyzing every aspect of everything he does. Ordering something without mayonnaise or pickles for instance I do it all the time. I would hate for my husband to criticize me for every detail of my life. Did you say 5 dogs and a bird in the house, that sounds a little like hoarding with all the dogs, is he also a hoarder? I don't know all the details of what's going on but it sounds like he has been stressed to the max, stress can cause all kinds of side affects. Does he get good sleep, that also can make you moody and to see life as bad. I know because I suffer from insomnia.
I don't know what you have read about dealing with a mate with ADHD but the direct approach of trying to force him to get counseling will only back fire, he will see it as an attack on his character and resist.
I hope you are not saying the things on here to him, I can see why he might want to kill himself with all the negative thrown at him in micro detail.
I find kindness is the best approach, understanding and compassion, all the things you would want from him if you had lived his life.
I read all your posts and out of all the pages I only saw a few things you had to say about him that were good, the rest seemed to be bashing him or having pity on him.
I lost someone to suicide, you never know when the words you say to them might be your last and you live with that the rest of your life.
It sounds like his life has been horrible, it is no wonder he sees the world the way he does. It sounds like he needs to take time for himself to do things he enjoys or wants to do. I don't know if you ever had children, I have 3 born within 5 years of each other, taking care of them and the housework took me all day and I was worn out and in a bad mood every day my hubby came home, he did not understand because he said I did not have to work. Sometimes house hold responsibilities with children ( or 5 dogs) can tax you and tomorrow is just another day of the same, you feel like you never accomplish anything, are not appreciated and your life has little meaning. I can't imagine not being married doing what I do because at least I have a sort of sense of security in a marriage. I can't imagine taking care of the household, raising the kids and meeting their needs all day and having to worry that my mate who owns everything could kick me out at anytime and keep the kids because I would have no way of taking care of them.
Don't get me wrong if you think he is that bad do what you know is best for you, it just seems you are awful harsh in everything bad you have to say about him. I just hope you are not saying these things to his face, it would kill me if I read my Hubby had wrote such negative things about me and if your boyfriend does already have a bad outlook on life, you just might end up being the nail in his coffin.
All I can say is you get a lot further with kindness understanding and trying to be a persons friend than from pointing out their faults.
Did you have a good father and a good relationship with him? I ask because we tend to chose people that are like our father because that is what home is to us. Also the relationship we have with our father is usually transferred onto our mate when we leave home and get married.
It sounds like you are damaged from your first marriage, that is just more baggage piled on top of any ill feelings you might have had for your father.
I find it is easy to pick at the splinter in in others as we have a log in ours sometimes, I am sorry I am a Christian and realize you don't believe that way but regardless whether either of you believe in a God. Some of the things in it are good advice to live by even if no God exists.
Treat your partner how you want to be treated and stop pointing fingers at each other, focus on improving yourself and fixing your issues instead of only focusing on his. I say this because it sounds like you have suffered a lot in life even if you exclude your boyfriend from the scenario. That way if you do break up you will be a better person for the next man.
It is easy to place blame and not as easy to accept any but in relationships each person has their faults, making it work takes being a grown up and taking responsibility for our own shortcomings.
People usually are angry because they feel trapped in a situation they can't get out of, with your BF sounds like it was his parents and now that he is in the same situation with you having no way out of the stress and inferior feelings he must feel being judged like he is, he is more likely to see the only escape he has is death.
I would hate to be 59 and to be dependent on someone, that is going backwards to like it was when I lived at home with my parents and could not wait till 18 when I could have my own place.
You need to encourage him to get his life on track to have something to call his own so he is not stressed by worrying where he will be if you kick him out. That must be a humiliating place to be for him just because of his birthright. You were fortunate to have parents that loved you and left you some security, he did not have that. Have a little compassion because you catch a lot more bees with Honey.
If he is sour on life give him a reason to want to live, your response to his condition will only make things worse.It sounds like he took care of you when you were not where you are today, I am sure it is disappointing to him now that your life is secure, that you seem to have no empathy for him and has no ties with you that make him feel secure. Instead what he seems to be getting is someone criticizing every minute thing he does like he is a pain in the but. Your comments on here of him seem a little obsessive compulsive like you are trying to micro manage every aspect of his being. I am not sure what the answer is for you but I know if you treat him with the love and respect you would treat a loving family member with, you might be able to save him from his past being the one good thing in his life. If he is a horrible person he will not change and you need to move on. I just find people usually treat you with the same measure of kindness you treat them with. If you suffer pain he might not know the tone of your voice is not directed at him. My dad suffered from arthritis he had a bad case of it and was irritable and angry near the end of his life, it was very hard for me to deal with him because I was his care giver, my mother passed when I was 16 in a car accident and he was unhappy about that too. It is hard for me to this day to accept he did not mean to direct his anger from his pain at me because some days were good.Give someone the benefit of the doubt today, they could be gone tomorrow. All the things you have gone through, the lawsuit and the injury could destroy most any marriage, it sounds like you both might need to get some help working out if your both willing. Good luck and always practice kindness.
misundertsood
Submitted by sickandtired on
Thanks for your honest opinion. To answer your questions, I do not say the negative micro-managing things to him. I was listing the symptoms of his behavior that seem out of the norm of most people I have known. I am trying to understand his behaviors, wanting to know if others have seen this in their loved ones. I want to help him get out of this hell of child abuse and adult anger.
I have only confronted my BF on the really upsetting things he does that directly affect us or another person, like threaten to kill my brother or begin to online stalk a cop who pulled him over once for speeding, I felt like I HAD TO step in on that one. I learned long ago to pick my battles. I have tried kindness and patience for almost all of our 10 years together, but when I fell, he was very cold right from the start scolding me that I fell for MONTHS while I was suffering trying to heal. I really think i would have healed sooner if it wasn't for his endless blaming of me falling, saying I have ruined his life by falling.
Yes, I am angry and angry at myself that I have let him treat me so coldly...mutual friends say they have seen divorced couples have more affection than he gives me. I am the one who would always make the effort to be affectionate, to walk across the room and hug HIM, and he has not done that or really kissed me in 8 years, but I was very patient, and kept kissing him, trying not to hold his coldness against him.
I would plan fun vacations to get him out of the house to try to relax and enjoy himself. I would try to distract him from his troubles with things that I hoped would make him happy like concerts, but I learned that he will focus on an audience member who get a little too loud, and then that is what he will talk about after the concert is over, likes he scans his scene for insults or threats or bullies. I have not seen that in any other guy I have ever dated, so it concerns me now that I see these recurring patterns.
I realized that he gets energy from his anger, like it is a fuel. He spends way too much time involved in making anonymous negative and sometimes threatening comments to total strangers that he does not agree with online. An old childhood friend contacted him wanting to catch up after 50 years, and when he found out she was a Christian republican, he lit into her mercilessly, saying crazy stuff like God will judge you for your vote! This lady was patient with him, and gave him several chances to calm down and talk cordially, but he continued to bash her and her beliefs, to the point that she had to block him. It was scary to read how his anger went from 0 to 100 in just a few facebook messages (we used to share a facebook page), and he just went off on her for no reason...she has a right to her beliefs. Of course I felt like I had to talk with him about the way he treated this lady, this old childhood friend, because I believe he was bullying her. I am not bashing him here, I am just letting you know the kinds of behaviors I have observed him getting obsessed with...for hours on the computer, so I would try to get him out in nature or to a great concert hoping the music might soothe his soul. I love him and I have exhausted myself trying to make him happy.
I lost my sister to suicide, so I know all about how that devastates the family that is left behind. I am sorry for your loss. BF confessed to our marriage counselor that he was not suicidal, and that he didn't mean it when he would say it, and the counselor said he was manipulating me with my greatest tragedy when he threatened suicide and then ran away for 8 hours...leaving me wondering and worrying. He doesn't like that counselor after, she "attacked" him on that, but at least he has not threatened suicide lately, he just threatens to move a thousand miles away.
My dad was a very hard working, successful man, man who was direct..if he had a problem with you, he let you know it. He may have been a little harsh or critical sometimes, but I always knew it was for my own good, and my dad always let me know he loved me and that I could be anything I wanted to be. I knew he had faith in me, and he had a great capacity for joy...these last characteristics are all I would want in a partner...they don't have to be successful or a workaholic. You are right about how a little kindness goes a long way. I would love it if BF could me more like my dad in these areas, like he was when we first met.
My Mom, by the way, was the kindest person you could have for a mother...she was my best friend, and I was thankful I had her love and advice for so long, and when she died at 85 in 2006, a lot of me went with her. I was their sole caregiver 24/7 for nearly 5 years near the end of their lives, and mom had severe arthritis and glaucoma and dad had dementia, so that experience gave me a whole new perspective of what patience and compassion really mean. BF was wonderful to my parents, and they both loved him. He promised them he would take care of me, and that gave them a lot of peace. He spent 17 days and nights in the hospital with me at my mom's bedside when she died, and I loved him twice as much and was thankful for his love, protection and loyalty to my parents.
I know lawsuits are usually hell, but my family inheritance case was a big mess, and I did not suspect BF had adhd until much later, so looking back, I can see how he would misunderstand or get frustrated with the lawyers, the courts, and how the predators (bullies) enraged him. He says my family's lawsuit ruined him, traumatized him, and I tried many times to keep him out of it, but I was a wreck grieving over my parents, while my brother was sending process servers to my door. BF wanted to avoid them, and I wanted to answer the complaints so we could get it all settled, rather than having people keep banging on your door with subpoenas, and trying to hide from them.
One process server even chased us in her van, almost ramming us broadside while I was driving on a busy street, and she then chased us on the interstate for about 30 miles, so to say my brother was aggressive and played dirty, is an understatement. BF and I disagreed on how to handle it, and that led to him getting very angry saying he had to fight me before he could fight my brother's lawyers, and like I said, I begged him to stay out of it because my blood pressure requires I reduce stress when possible. Looking back at it now, I see that my brother fit the mold as a classic bully to BF, so he labeled him the enemy. Period.
BF saw all of them as a bunch of bullies, and he reacted accordingly, and he flipped a switch inside from lover to fighter, and he does not know how to switch back, how to forgive and let go. I have begged him to do that, for us, for him. I know my parents would not want me and my brother to be enemies like this, but BF hasn't spoken to his parents for 20 years, so now I have not spoken to my brother for almost 9 years, because BF said if I ever get back with my brother, he would leave me, and he has told me many times in his simmering rages that he hates my brother more than he loves me. That really hurt. This kind of talk is VERY stressful for me.
I can see the pattern how he will get on a subject by reading an email or watching the news, and he will state his opinion, then start to stew on it, and usually say "If I were the creator, I would annihilate this or that person or country or whatever... and then he will get angry talking about all of life's injustices, like he just figured out this minute that life is unfair. It's like he can't get over it, can't find a resolution. In an argument, he can't work towards any consensus or compromise, he can't get past the "stating what your problem is" stage,no resolutions or making up happens with us...so sad.
I learned long time ago not to disagree with him on things like this that don't directly concern us or anyone we know, because it just fed more fuel to his simmering fire if I voiced a different opinion or disagreed with him on even little things, like "is Leon Russell talented or not"...there was a huge argument between BF and a friend's H while we were in a restaurant, and it made it really awkward for her and me to be friends, because it was obvious that my BF hated her H. There was almost a physical fight at the table over Leon Russell...I was stunned and so was my friend..we just sat there quietly and watched it happen in disbelief, looking down. I am a college educated woman, who has always thought for myself, so it has been hard to keep my opinions to myself around him when he gets like this, but I have learned to be quiet to try to keep things calm. My niece and several close friends say they are concerned about me, because I seem more submissive than I used to be. Add the helplessness of a severe injury and the long rehab period, I have felt broken down, and have had to concentrate on healing. My healing physically has awakened something inside of me that says, hey, you need to heal these relationship problems, too...don't let yourself get angry like BF did, and that is why I am doing everything I can to stay ahead of this and get out of the downward spiral of late.
I hope this gives you a little more background. Thanks for your honesty...that took some guts, and I respect that.
I told you I had insomnia, I
Submitted by Lori 67 on
I told you I had insomnia, I did not mean to judge you, I was just trying to figure out things from his point of view, so he went through all of these things for you, dealt with your brother when you were in grief, was there for your parents and my your mothers side for 17 days and now 10 years later what does he have to show for his efforts?
Sounds like he lost those years of his life dedicated to your families issues when he could have been doing things for himself instead. Now your on your feet and he needs help from the PTSD of the past years which must have been hell for the both of you.
When I was dating I had guys walk away because I had cats and a litter box they hated the smell of. Never had anyone dedicated to me through something like that sounds almost life threatening getting ran off the road.
Does he have any good qualities except for the ones you mentioned being dedicated to you through all that?
I hear you replay all the negative about him in your head re living it over and over, if there are any positive aspects of him, try focusing on them and replaying them in your head instead. I still say kindness can cure a lot of ills, something he probably never got as a child.
I am sure he senses this I mean when you are totally focused on his bad qualities all the time. The reason he might have been different to you in the beginning is that you were different, back then I am sure all the thoughts of him looping through your mind were wonderful, that loop has been replaced by a lot of negative it seems. That will affect your patience with him, your tone of voice when you don't realize it as well as the love he feels from you.
Someone has to start the positive thinking again but it sounds like you need some healing.
If I played a loop of all the things my Hubby has done in the past through my head all day, I am sure he would sense it the minute he walked in the door. Treat him as good as you would your pets, it sounds like they are more important to you than he is sometimes. Our dog eats dry dog food, it sounds like your dogs rule the nest if you have to cook for them nightly. Do you cook for your BF?. I can see why he might resent all the dogs if they get better treatment than him. I have never seen you post anything negative about your dogs.
I am not making judgments because I don't know your BF, I am just trying to understand why a guy who was so wonderful in the beginning from what you say could turn into someone so horrible. Love is more than a hug, it is shown in other ways too. People can hug you without loving you, in my marriage he can show it by taking out the trash, hanging a picture for me or doing the dishes occasionally.
You have been through a lot of losses. He is probably right about your brother, if he would do those things to you over money once, he will do it again if you ever trust him. Imagine growing old and having your next of Kin, your brother in control of you, did you ever think of that. Your BF has proven himself in his loyalty to you and your elderly parents, not sure why you would want your brother back in your life. Your BF probably realizes this and does not want to ever go through the same battle with your brother having control over you if you were ever in need of someone making medical decisions for you or managing your estate. But then your loop of negative thoughts are directed at your BF while your brother gets a pass. Does not make much sense because your BF was not the cause of the lawsuit and he suffered through it with you even being damaged by it, it seems. And you would even consider trusting your brother again. hum, not sure what to think about that.
People don't change unless they are traumatized like in war, sounds like your lawsuit was as close as it gets. there are so many vets coming home and committing suicide because they are traumatized and come home and have trouble getting out of the fight mode so the have problems getting a job, when you are mentally and emotionally damaged from a trauma and don't have anything to fall back on and the war is over and money is an issue, they see suicide as a better alternative. maybe that in a sense is what your BF is going through.
He has fought the battle and is no longer needed and tossed aside because of the issues the battle causes, my brother was in the service, I know about the VA. I will never let my kids join the military if I have to lay down in front of their car. Sorry I lost my train of thought. Anyway treat him the way you would want to be treated had you stood by him in what sounds like the most difficult time of your life. I love people, I hate seeing anyone being misunderstood. I have to get to bed, I have to be up to fix Hubby breakfast in the morning. Hang in there things can improve by adding a little kindness and love.
Excellent Post Lori67
Submitted by kellyj on
Yes...I have discovered many of the same things that you have said are true....both in myself and in my past relationships. That negative loop or ruminating about past negative events I think is a common thing associated with ADHD. Being able to just recognize that I have this tendency in the first place made it pretty easy to spot and now turn that around if I find myself stuck in one of those negative "loops" you talking about. If this is true.....it's not a difficult thing to spot in someone else if that is all they seem to talk about. Instead of seeing this as an annoying and frustrating thing for you the other person to have to constantly be around or listen too....you can do the same thing even if they can't see it......you can and see it for what it really is instead of taking it personally or making it about yourself. It means they are struggling to find an answer or resolution to something and they are having trouble doing this for themselves in the moment....or even over a long period of time.
For me when this has happened.....it's usually because I am being too myopic and narrowly focused which is preventing me from seeing the other side of the coin. Usually when I can do that and look at the positive or alternative side of the same thing.....that will be enough to change my perspective and how I feel about it will also change along with it.
I'm so glad you brought up the possibility that her BF may have felt somewhat betrayed in the legal battle with her brother. This was such a huge problem for me with my ex wife and her sister and mother and to a much lessor degree at times to this day with my wife.
This starts out feeling that you have committed yourself to being the first position with a partner that you have to share your life with and feel that this is what you are doing or offering them as well. If your birth family members start taking precedence over you (catering to what they want and what they feel you should do) especially if they are very controlling, domineering and demanding.....and you are listening to them and doing what they say over your partner.......I can tell you from experience that this feels like a severe form of betrayal and that you are second and or third in line in having a say in things that will directly effect you. I cannot tell you how frustrating and diminishing it feels when you are married to someone who does this. The entire sit-com "Everyone Loves Raymond" was built around this premise and all the problems this causes for the spouse of someone who finds themselves in this kind of difficult situation.
In my case for example......I eventually pieced together (with the help of my T)....that my ex wife's unresolved sibling abuse at the hands of her older sister when she was growing up had really never ended and was still taking place in our marriage. She was still tied emotionally to her sister and her mother in a very unhealthy dynamic that was an endless black hole for my ex wife. She was still chasing after the approval that she never got from her older sister and her older sister was still playing the same part she played on her end. This was exasperating for me since I had created some pretty healthy boundaries between my ex wife and my family to keep this kind of thing out of our marriage only to find myself in the same but different situation that I had fought so hard to remove myself from over most of my early adult life. In it's very essence.....my ex wife's older sister had elbowed me right out of the way and took up camp in our marriage taking my place as the first position or place in my ex wife life. I found myself being married to her sister and mother at times more than I was to my ex wife and being in third place in all things and all decisions.
This is a real source hurt, misunderstanding and possibly betrayal for someone who is already estranged from their own family and needs someone who is not choosing their birth family over them. When you are in a committed relationship with someone.....you expect that they have left "the nest" and is now ready to do this same on their end with (you)another person. It is your responsibility to also set those boundaries with your birth family and make sure they are called on it if they are intruding where they should not be or disrespecting your partner if that is what is happening. At the very least without completely disowning them or creating a rift in the family.....creating enough distance and space there and definitely not deferring to them over your spouse in making decision that will effect the two of you. If this is the case....their are still strings attached which usually means some unhealthy unresolved issues for you between your old family and your new one. This is not fair for the partner who has done this kind of thing themselves and now expects to have the same from you which is not only reasonable but a requirement if you don't want to make your partner feel insecure and feel like you only have one foot in the door all the time with them.
If you see this happening like you mentioned when your siblings or parents get a pass in doing the things that you yourself are not allowed or criticized for.....how else might someone feel if this is the case? I think this is a very valid and real situation that can cause irreparable damage to your relationship and to your self esteem on the receiving end of this. It does make you feel violated especially if this is permitted and you are not doing this yourself with your partner and you are holding the line and fighting for your partner and your relationship even while they are not there or in the same room. This falls into the category of trust, loyalty and honor in my mind.
Again....I am so glad you brought this and appreciate your comments about seeing the other side of any situation and keeping and even or balanced perspective on difficult situations between yourself and your spouse or partner. I whole heartedly concur.
I have to clear up one thing...
Submitted by sickandtired on
I have to clear up one thing about the lawsuit with my brother. I never sided with my brother against my BF on any issues. I never said anything about getting back with my brother or reconciling with him at all...that is just an unfounded fear that BF has held on to. The only thing I argued with my boyfriend about was the fact that I found out he was sending threatening emails to the attorneys and others involved in the case, and threatened my brother on paper with bodily harm. All I did was stress to my BF that when you are in a lawsuit, you have to let the attorneys handle it, and you should NEVER contact adversaries directly, and you should NEVER threaten anyone with violence, because all you are doing is giving them ammo to use against you later. Like for example, BF wrote a big nasty letter to my brother's attorney, threatening this attorney personally that violence would happen if he would not "do the right thing", saying "I know where your kids go to school", and lying saying we were married, and he signed MY name to it, without my knowledge or permission. The attorney was able to debunk a lot of stuff in that letter, and he took it to the judge, and I ended up looking like a violent, vindictive liar, and they got contempt charges up on me because of it, when I didn't even know BF had sent such a letter. Those are the types of things I tried to stop BF from doing, and he said I was "attacking" him when all I was trying to do was to get him to stay out of it and let me deal with the attorneys in a socially acceptable, non-aggressive professional manner. Bottom line: If BF sees this as a betrayal, me telling him that it is unacceptable for him to threaten people by saying stuff like "I know where your kid goes to school...", then he has a problem.
about the dogs
Submitted by sickandtired on
I also want to clarify about the dogs. I had no dogs when I met BF. The only pets I had was my bird and a small pet rabbit, and the rabbit died very early in our relationship. BF brought his dogs to my house shortly after he moved in, and I'm an animal lover, so I loved them all as my own, and made sure they got the love and the best vet care. I had 2 of them spayed and neutered at his request. He encouraged us to get more, so we rescued my parents' dog when they were no longer able to care for her...bringing our total number of dogs to 5. Then a few years later, he was in OK working on building his house, and he called me saying he had found 2 adorable puppies on the side of the road so he rescued them and wanted to know if he could bring them back home with him to AZ. I asked him to put of found dog posters first to try to find the owners. He said no one ever responded so could he PLEEEASSSEE bring them home with him??? pulling on my heartstrings. One of the puppies was a small breed and the other was a large breed, and we already had his 13 year old 110 lb lab to care for in a tiny yard with all of the other dogs, so I had to draw the line somewhere, so since he seemed to favor the smaller dog, I decided to make a compromise, and i said he could bring the small puppy home, but that he had to put the large breed dog in the local no-kill shelter so she could be spayed and adopted to a good home. The 110 lb lab died of cancer 2 years ago, and BF had a suicidal runaway outburst over her death, and was angry at me because after weeks of her suffering with widespread cancer, not being able to walk, not getting any better in after 2 weeks in the vet hospital with IV's and the vet saying there was no hope, I gently suggested to BF that it was time to put her out of her suffering, and he accused me of "letting him down" with respect to the care of this beloved dog. I loved her too, and it broke my heart to suggest he should put her down, but there comes a time when you have to think about ending your pet's suffering, not your own inability to let her go. So now we have 5 dogs.
The whole cooking beef and chicken meat and rice for the dogs everyday was totally his idea, because he said "regular dog food is not good enough for them". he starting doing this after the lab died, fearing he had not done enough or provided good enough nutrition for her.
So in summary... he brought his dogs to my home when he moved in, he would bring more dogs to our home later, feed them these unnecessary elaborate meals (that they are now accustomed to) while I pay all the vet bills and protect them from him when he loses his temper and gets abusive with them, saying he wishes he had never gotten so many. He echoes the abusive things his father said to him to the dogs..."you are stupid...I never really wanted you, etc." and if they don't do exactly as he says, he grabs them and holds them down and screams at them until they pee on the floor in fear, and then he gets even madder because they have made a mess in the house. Of course, I have intervened when he goes too far with punishing the dogs, and he then accuses me of caring more for them than I care for him....but if I don't protect them from him, who will???
You can't reason with a User....
Submitted by c ur self on
Your stories sickandtired all have a common theme many of us are well aware of...There is nothing wrong w/ any of us reaching out to do things for people or in this case domesticated animals....But, the story isn't about the pets...It's about being responsible for your own actions, your own emotions, and not using others as your dumping ground because of denial, because you refuse to see yourself and manage your own emotions....Anyone who tries to coexist w/ a mind like this will pay, trying to live with someone who is so co-dependent will overwhelm you and dominate your own life if you allow it...
Where there is no self-discipline, no self-control...Chaos will always reign....
C
Confused
Submitted by Lori 67 on
I thought, Oh my God how did I mis read that, I went back to see what I read, you said your parents would not have wanted you and your brother to be enemies like this, you mentioned your BF not seeing his parents for 20 yrs, the said this " so now I have not spoken to my brother for 9 years, because my BF said if I ever get back with my brother, he would leave me".
I thought when using the word "because", you were denoting it's definition which is, "the reason for that ".
Did you read the Post by JJamieson under your blog, I don't mean to beat my own drum but he was describing just what you are doing with the loop I mentioned playing through your head of negative comments about your BF. It was titled, Excellent Post Lori67
I will let you read it yourself and see if you read it the way I did. I think he means he found himself doing the same thing he was noticing in others in relationships and that helped him see the other persons perspective.
The sentence that I believe might apply to your BF and the situation where you said he goes through a repeat or a loop of things you have heard 20 or 50 times is, " It means that they are struggling to find an answer or a resolution to something and they are having trouble doing this for themselves in the moment.... or even over a long period of time."
I see you also doing this in your blogs, struggling to find an answer or a resolution to repairing your relationship but having trouble doing it for yourself in the moment, because of the loop that continually plays through your head of all the past abuses, somewhat similar to what your BF is doing dealing with his past abuses from his father. You have more in common with him than you think, and that's a good thing, it will help you both relate to one another.
You have to let go of those things from the past to proceed, and I mean the both of you, neither of you can go back and change the past, so what is the point of reliving those painful memories over and over which will make you more angry, so if you really seeking an answer to the problems in your relationship, you both get some help together on how to get past your pasts. Forgiveness has to happen before you can move past them. People forgive others for murdering family members, so I know forgiveness is possible in both your pasts if you chose it. Forgiving means letting it go and forgetting, and focusing on the future instead.Read some books on how others learned to forgive and move forward.
You can have history with someone and you can have baggage, baggage weighs you down, you probably see your BF as having baggage from his past while you see your experiences with him as your history.
Baggage is baggage if it weighs on you and what he has done in the past that you resent him for does not seem to be intentional on his part, he just got caught up in the passion of a fight. Have you ever lost it with someone and regretted the things you did?
If so realize your BF has something in common with you. Look at it that way instead of focusing only on him.I would say this is good we have something in common we can both work on together.
You can always find someone to take your side against anyone if you only focus on what they did. I don't think it is your intention to create sides with your BF which is what you are doing when you look for people to side with you.. If you are trying to end the relationship though, it will help you justify in your own mind that he is the enemy when you build alliances against him and believing he is the only one with faults will help you justify leaving him
I didn't think that was your intention though for being on this website, I may be wrong. You have to ask yourself that I guess.
Not to be injecting my religion in this but there is a verse that says do not judge others, it is because we are all flawed human beings and have probably been guilty of the same things we judge others for at some point in our lives if we just think about it, or will probably be guilty of it in the future if we ever get placed in the same circumstances they were.. Some call that Karma I guess.
I believe it all comes from God,we are put through things because we are here to learn.
Anyway read what JJamieson posted on your blog, he validated some of the things I was thinking.
I am sorry, I try not to take sides in these blogs, I find it defeats the reason most people are on here.
Here's Your Opportunity
Submitted by kellyj on
to give your BF what he didn't have in his past. This is a perfect case in point. I didn't get that you did anything to incite your BF as you said....it sounded like he did that all on his own. This is him projecting. He's taking his feelings and experiences from the past and projecting them onto your brother and the attorneys with no intention of malice or wrong doing on their part....or....in on your brothers behalf, he did do things in a way that proved this to a point but your BF took off with all of his preconceived false notions and applied them to this which only made it worse. All of this is difficult for you, your brother and the attorneys to have to deal with someone who is doing this kind of thing. It appears unnecessary and unreasonable because it probably is. You already had to deal with your brother which was stressful enough...you didn't need your BF getting into this and complicating an already difficult scenario for you. I get it and I can see this happening.
This is where you can make these times an opportunity to confront your BF in a different way by understanding why he does these things and take advantage of it in a positive way. Look at it again from his perspective even if it's not reasonable or rational which it isn't. Look past that and see that he is afraid or doesn't trust that what happened in his past will not happen again......him getting the short end of the stick (pun intended). That's what this is all about. This is where you give him what he didn't have and at the same time....work with his fears instead of seeing him as a problem or an inconvenience to you during your own trials and tribulations.
This is that wounded child talking but not realizing it (your BF). If you can see the wounded child in these moments but not treat him like one or make him feel like this is what you are doing......you can talk to the child as the adult he is and speak to him from that place as if that is who you are talking to but with the respect he wants as the adult he is. This may sound counter intuitive and if you do this and not do it in a condescending manner he will pick up on...but if you speak directly to him and his fears (not about his fears and why he has them) I think he will respond differently to you and the situation at hand.
I know this one because this was the mistake I was making with my wife. I had to first figure out why she did things or behaved in ways that didn't make sense to me....but once I did, I found she was not amenable to talking about it....AT ALL! This only made her angry and caused her to project even more. This did not work!
If a person is denying this part of them but projecting it this way.....talking about what they are denying is wrought with problems right from the very start. It's why they are denying it in the first place....so they don't have to deal with it cognitively and now.....you are trying to make them deal with what they don't want to....see what I mean? It comes out either way but it's done through the back door not the front which is where the problems for you come from. You need to access his fears through the same door they are coming from instead of pounding of the front door and insisting he come through that way with you.
You don't have to deny his fears even if this is what he is doing is all I am saying. Speak to them, address them and take care of them don't punish him for inconveniencing you and telling him how difficult this is for you....or trying to shine a big spotlight on them with disdain. I'm sure on some level....it can't feel good for him either way. If he's being a turtle......this will not be the way to get him to come out of his shell until he feels it's safe for him to do this. He expects the worse and is doing everything he can to make the worse happen. If you can't see your way around this with him like I am saying....you will blunder right through his fears and keep re-establishing them for him and proving that he was right all along.
This is where you can't play innocent either. You can't say "well, I didn't do anything to create this problem and this is all on him." Yes....this is absolutely true and if that is where it stops then nothing will change. This is where you need to step up and be the bigger person and do this for him because you love him and put yourself and what you want to the side for the time being. This is that leap of faith again but it will pay off in dividends in the long run and it is the caring thing to do for someone you care about. It will speak volumes to him by taking care of that child that didn't ever get taken care of.
I can't tell you how well this worked (and is working with my wife). The response I got when I started doing this with her was almost immediate and it has proven to get her to actually admit the very things she wouldn't talk about before.....on her own in her own time. It's amazing how well someone responds in a way that says that the fears and pain they are experiencing (as irrational and illogical and problematic they are for you) matters to you despite how much pain they cause you.
This is a huge part of being forgiving and forgiveness and only makes you feel better about yourself. Funny how that works?
Whenever I think about this, I hear the Beatles lyric.... "and in the end........the love you take....is equal to the love you make." playing in my head. So true;)
Again...showing my age here. lol
that hits home.
Submitted by sickandtired on
That particular Beatles lyric has been my mantra for years. ...along with my idol, the great Neil Young's lyric "to give a love, you gotta live a love, to live a love, you gotta be part of..." I get it about the infinite loop of "bad things BF has done" rolling around in my head...I guess I can't even imagine what horrible memories are in his loop.
Thank you J for your non-judgmental effort to help me and other on this site.
You're Welcome..Again, Glad it Helped;)
Submitted by kellyj on
ditto
What a blessing you are JJameson
Submitted by Lori 67 on
God Bless you for your input from a man's point of view dealing with your mate in a similar situation. So many people will jump in these blogs not understanding an issue and join right in attacking the very person that needs help. Kind people are sometimes rare on the internet anymore
Keep up the good work, you will be rewarded for it some day!
Thank You Lori67
Submitted by kellyj on
You said something else that I think is very observant....(not just for sotired but for everyone) I think it is easy to forget when you aren't getting along with the person you are so close to.....You have more in common with him than you think, and that's a good thing, it will help you both relate to one another.
I think sometimes opposites attract and that usually doesn't end up well for most people. I think some find a way to make this work but most who do this find themselves really not liking the other person after a while even if they love them. Both are possible I think. I'm saying this because this was the case with my ex-wife and I. We were so different in so many ways that eventually.....you end up never finding anything in common any more yet you still love them even when there are no horrible trespasses done on either side.
But for most people who find someone they connect with because they are so a like and then fall in love with them.....even the baggage they bring are very much the same. I see this with my wife and I despite a few major differences that we have to contend with. The issues (or baggage) that are so similar at times are the very thing that starts competing with each other and so often.....you hate the thing that is the most like the same thing you hate in yourself. So true. I believe this is called competing sensitivities.
This is when it's easy to put your foot in your mouth and start calling the kettle black. It's also why making sure your own house is in order first will make you see the same things in other people and make you more compassionate instead of being critical or judgmental. I can kick myself for all the times I've done this very thing and now I find myself biting my tongue and thinking about this before I stick my foot in any further. lol
This is all easy to remember when things are fine and just as easy to forget when things aren't. The problems I have run into with my wife it seems are more due to the fact that we are so much a like even though it feels like we are so different most of the time. If you can't live with yourself in the first place.....this will definitely pose a problem! lol
except with the obsessive cleaning (my wife).....this is the one place we are very different:) (still working on that one....but, I am learning....just not the obsessive part lol)
More specifically - how do you do that?
Submitted by Wifelife88 on
If a person is denying this part of them but projecting it this way.....talking about what they are denying is wrought with problems right from the very start. It's why they are denying it in the first place....so they don't have to deal with it cognitively and now.....you are trying to make them deal with what they don't want to....see what I mean? It comes out either way but it's done through the back door not the front which is where the problems for you come from. You need to access his fears through the same door they are coming from instead of pounding of the front door and insisting he come through that way with you.
I find this really interesting. This could assist with the communicating between myself and my husband. When approached the 'right way' (whatever that may be) he can be reasonable, caring, compassionate and loving. I am struggling to find that path currently when there is tricky issue to discuss. He immediately goes on the defence and throws everything back at me - I have a psychiatric condition, I change my story, I lie and try to whitewash him. So it becomes a futile discussion. In the past I just gave up and kept quiet. But the problem with that is he then makes up what he believes I think in the absence of me articulating what I think. So I am trying hard to stop shutting down and stopping communicating.
Can you give an example of coming through the back door?
Hi wifelife88
Submitted by kellyj on
Sorry for taking so long to respond to you....this thread has become so long I missed your comment and question before. Yes....I can give you my thoughts on this since this is something I had to do with my wife not long ago and it appears to have been the way in with her. All this talk about Narcs and lack of empathy can get very confusing and just like having ADHD and not everything you see is directly related to it......the same is true with co-morbid disorders like PTSD, Narcissism, Anxiety related issues and denial. That''s a pretty confusing soup to wade through and I have been trying to wade through this myself for years and it finally seems to be making some sense to me. Even though I have said this repeatedly already on this forum.....I don't think you can say this enough times to remind you that when you figure things out for yourself.....it becomes easier to recognize and figure out what is happening with another person as well. If you can do this.....you can relate to them in the same way you relate to yourself. You learn to speak their language and understand their meaning even if they are speaking these words in a literal sense as everyone understands them to be. Another way to say this is becoming good at reading between the lines. If everything they say is coming through the back door indirectly.....and you are hearing them say "yes" when they are really saying "no".....then that is a big problem right there. I think this is a big part of being empathetic and being understanding of someone who is doing things to hurt you or cause you pain at the same time.
The key words here are "at the same time." That's where it gets tricky isn't it.....like when you are having a conversation with another person?
What is the saying (whoever said it....Jung? ) the definition of insanity...."continuing to do the same action repeatedly....and expecting a different desired outcome or result?"
Since you can only have control over what you do and can't control another person.....the only thing you can change in that equation is something on your end. Expecting another person to change just because you want them to and doing nothing different fits into this definition in my mind. That does seem to make sense?
And it became clear to me....that nothing I did seemed to change how my wife saw things and she was pretty rigid and unmoving in her behavior no matter what I did. From how I saw things....she was following this definition almost to the letter! lol I'm joking her but it wasn't that far from the truth. She was being very rigid and inflexible and not moving or changing from her defensive posture and throwing every back into my face at all times (or projecting ). Every time I tried to get her to see that.....she fired it right back at me must like you are describing.
This can be a symptom of Narcissism since this is what they do all the time everywhere they go. But unfortunately.....my experience with Narcs has shown me one thing very consistently.....( as you referred to your H) they can be caring and reasonable this part is true....what they seem to be consistently be devoid of is being compassionate and loving. What appears like love and compassion at times is them just being manipulative and faking it for your benefit to get what they want from you.
That.... from my own experience ..... is what really hurts when you get blind sided by what you thought was compassion and love from them to find a somewhat fake facsimile instead. Eventually....you catch onto this but when that happens...now you've got yourself a problem. How do you rationalize your own feelings with this and try and fit them into what you now find is no longer true? I thought he/she loved me like I love them which is where I invested and returned it back with my own love and compassion for them that goes along with it.....and now.....I come to find that all of this was a big shame all along. What a sense of betrayal and feelings like you were deceived. How much more hurtful can anything be?
On your end of things.....this is where denial kicks in as a defense mechanism to buffer and and protects you from having to come to that painful cognitive realization all at once which is just too overwhelming to deal with the shock from this realization. But If you never make that jump and feel that pain.....you stay right where you are and that denial defense mechanism becomes your everyday way of life and you deny yourself of receiving any love or compassion from anyone else. You become disconnected to your own feelings now and become disassociated with them which is another way of saying that you cannot relate to them anymore.
For someone who completely lacks empathy (a Narc).....you will keep getting blindsided like this indefinitely. Not so much when you talk to them or try and communicate with them or what they say....but by their actions. At least in my mind.....that's how you can tell.
So now.....what if someone behave this way but their actions say that they do care and are compassionate and loving as you described with your H? Again....in my mind.....this is denial only not Narcissism. It may feel somewhat the same but it is qualitatively different and thankfully.....is something that can be worked with and changed. This is what I experienced with my wife but that still leaves the problem....how you get through that denial and get to the real love and compassion that you know that is there? Bye pass the denial of the pain that they can't deal with and access them through the back door to their love and compassion....with your own love and compassion.
In the moment when you talk to your H and as you say (your psychiatric condition) you change your story, you lie and try and whitewash him or what is happening? This sounds like your own defense mechanism of sorts? Are you shutting down and retreating to avoid this painful confrontation when he fires everything back at you into your face? Is this causing you to lock up and freeze or want to run away from him when he does this? Of is this making you angry and mad and you end up getting into a fight? It's called fight or flight reaction and this in itself is a defense against his aggressive retaliation of your when he reacts this way from out of his own defense from being in denial and not wanting to face or deal with the pain of not being this way.
Go back and read what I just said about denial......it's a defense against being overwhelmed with pain and going into shock from this experience. That projection whether it be from narcissism or some kind of PTSD or anxiety is still from the same thing.....avoiding pain and the becoming overwhelmed.
A person with ADHD is likely to become overwhelmed easily when confronted with too much of anything all at once. Difficult subjects can easily overwhelm us emotionally (especially raw emotions like anger) and if one of our developed defense strategies is being in denial.....it becomes a default for denying pain and becoming overwhelmed from experiencing another persons anger. If this happens....all you are going to get is projection or shutting down and avoiding you and the subject matter in the moment when you are trying to talk with your H.
And if this is what you do every time this happens.....something has to change? If he won't.....you have to. And since you can't change him.....that pretty much leaves getting what you want from him all up to you. Somewhere in what you do and how you approach him is causing him and his denial to respond the exact same way every time.
The definition of insanity? expecting a different result from the same behavior on your end. If you want love and compassion from him and no denial or defense.....you have to respond to his defense without your own ones coming back at him whatever they are. You have to change that psychiatric condition you are talking about and do something different instead of what you already know what it is you do. That's your answer right there and this may be the most challenging thing you will ever do. To put that aside and be able to be loving and compassionate at the same time when your H is not and expect nothing in return in the moment....to let it go and move on by and keep moving and not let this affect you so you can keep being loving and compassionate and doing it consistently for a while.
I keep talking about the leap of faith and this is exactly what I mean. Believe that you will get what you want without any proof of it coming to you in the moment. Believe in yourself and believe in him and your relationship and use that as your motivation to do it. If it works.....you will get what you want. If it doesn't....you have to be ready to accept that disappointment and feel the pain from it. That's the risk you have to take and the change that has to be made on your end.
PS this is exactly what I did despite all of my own defense mechanisms and challenges I had to deal with emotionally and it was and still is one of the most challenging things I have ever done. What happened is just what I said......my wife stopped projecting and being defensive herself and the love and compassion that I knew was there suddenly appeared without her own denial getting in the way of it. This made it possible for her to do where before there was not way this could happen for her. In my case.....I was the one who had to change not her but it worked just like I said. If I didn't believe in my own empathy before.....I do now:)
J
A Poignant Example
Submitted by kellyj on
of what I am talking about was shown in the movie "Seabiscuit" in this scene with Jeff Bridges where he does this very thing, and using compassion instead of anger from his own disappointment and uses it instead to speak directly to Toby Maquire's anger from his own denial of his past. Contrast this to what his trainer is doing ( and everyone else in his life has done up to this point) in this beautiful example of how to speak indirectly to denial instead of confronting it head on and shows how well this can work. It's a selfless act of caring more for Maguire's character than he is for himself and what he wants. Ultimately....as this story progresses....you find that both get what they want from Bridges act of compassion and caring and it breaks the cycle of anger and denial from this moment on. Trust is a bit part of what keeps someone in denial there in the first place. See what you think?
https://youtu.be/h0BWxrXdhAY
Sorry, but Lori's critical and unfair post is just wrong....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
There are a few things wrong with her harsh and off-base post, but I'll stick to one:
<<<
I can't imagine taking care of the household, raising the kids and meeting their needs all day and having to worry that my mate who owns everything could kick me out at anytime and keep the kids because I would have no way of taking care of them.
<<<
If you truly read all of @sickandtired 's posts, and understood them, you would not have written the above or some of the other things in your post.
The boyfriend should be worried. It's his own fault he's in that situation.
Sickandtired 's BF is NOT like some devoted, saintly, reliable housewife and mother to children who is lovingly taking care of the kids, the home, and the spouse, while the husband (greedily) owns everything. Dogs are not children who must be watched. People with dogs WORK. The BF chooses NOT to work and earn an income. He chose to run up credit card debt. Sickandtired has been very generous with him. He's a BF, not a spouse. There is no reason for him not to work and earn an income so that HE can own things. He's a mooch.
It sounds like the first year of their relationship, he did do a lot more things for her, but that was nine years ago. One year of helping a GF does not earn a person a lifelong freeloading support.
While it is sad that he was abused as a child, it has become his crutch and he hasn't sought help, even though Sickandtired has encouraged him to get help. People who have abusive parents, but don't have someone they can mooch off of, will WORK to eat. This guy CAN work.
Yes, this guy should worry that "the person who owns everything" might kick him out one day. That worry should motivate him to get a jpb so that he can support himself. He's not an invalid. Sickandtired has said that he'll do work for others for free, so he CAN WORK. He just chooses NOT to take on a job that earns money. THAT is HIS choice. If she kicked him out, he would get a job to eat.
If I moved home with my parents, and treated them the way the BF treats Sickandtired while mooching off of my parents, I darn well would be worried and SHOULD be worried that my parents (who own their home and cars and everything there) would kick my sorry tush out to the curb. YES!!! That worry is what keeps most people from being MOOCHES.
While it may be none of Sick's business how he orders his food, it probably is just "one more thing." She should probably give her order and walk away. But of course, since he has no money, she has to pay. Well, she could leave a twenty and ask him to bring her the change.
He doesn't have the right to become part owner of her assets. It sounds like most of her assets are from a huge inheritance from her parents. Those are hers. They wouldn't even be joint property if she were married.
He doesn't treat her like a loving spouse. She should break up with him.
thanks so much, OW
Submitted by sickandtired on
Thanks for seeing my point of view, and i really appreciate you standing up for me, OW. After reading "Lori's" posts, I felt really bad, like i was being a cold cruel greedy bitch, I felt really bad, I didn't sleep well that night, and kept reading her comment, second guessing myself that maybe I was dead wrong about BF, and that it is all my fault, that he is an innocent victim. I tried all of the things Lori suggested years ago, but he was getting angrier at things that didn't even involve me, so then what am i supposed to do? ...walk on eggshells trying not to trigger all of these things in him?? It's like EVERYTHING can trigger him and his anger to erupt. My range of "acceptable" behavior with him has gotten more and more narrow, like all I said was "Let's not put tools like this on the new dining room table any more, OK???" For God's sake, BF and Lori, THAT IS NOT ABUSE!!!! Thank you SO MUCH, OW, for understanding me on that one. I have tried being pleasant, which is VERY hard to do when you are with an angry man, as I am sure you know. He would get angry if I was "too happy" saying I didn't care about his problems, like he is jealous of me because I still have some capacity for joy. I have been walking on eggshells for years now... agreeing with him (but he still wants to argue and fight even when I say we will do what he wants...he still has to elaborate on all the things he is unhappy about for HOURS, even when he gets his way...I never could figure that one out...you won the argument BF, but you still want to fight?? I don't understand that at all. I have tried being quiet, leaving the room, putting on music he likes and even singing along with the song so he won't keep complaining, I've tried changing the subject...whatever I could think of, but his anger was always there, with me being more of a target and THE reason for the anger in his eyes as he has pushed almost everyone else out of his life.
Lori's post made me feel like a horrible person....but I have to tell her I AM NOT A HORRIBLE PERSON who would "use BF until I got on my feet, and then just "throw him away". BF has used that exact phrase very often. A far as Lori is concerned, I found it remarkable how anyone could just gloss over and totally ignore all of Bf's rage and threatening behaviors that I outlined to her. Also, you and other people who are reasonable, like J, realize I am trying to describe his symptoms, like pickyness with food, I am not " bashing him" as Lori said...another favorite term of BF's (co-incidence?) She assumed a whole lot, like they were all my dogs that I inflicted on him, but that has not been the case..she said that I "care more about the dogs than I care about BF" (another over-used favorite phrase of BF's) He is mean and hateful to his own dogs, acting out what his monster dad did to him..I step in and protect the dogs, and whenI do that he always says "you care more about the dogs than you do me". If these were kids, rather than dogs, maybe that would make a difference in Lori's mind that I don't think he treats them well and takes his anger out on them. The thing that really got me about her post was this.....all defending BF with absolutely no statements about any responsibility on his part, like his violent threats regarding the child of an attorney, stalking the cop, and waving a gun around threatening to kill my brother.....BUT assuming a lot of coldness in me, and not giving me the benefit of a doubt....Lori even said "it looks like you are not going to show BF any mercy" like I am some omnipotent authority figure...the same way BF sees me, AND the very same words he has so frequently said to me whenever I try to correct him (like the dining room table incident).
I think I told you how I met BF online on Match.com...well, after I went out with him a couple of times, I could not decide if he was someone I wanted to get serious with or not....I wanted to take more time and play the field and get to know someone well before getting into another relationship after my divorce. When I got another message from a new guy, and we started emailing and he seemed like a good person, had some stable characteristics I could glean from the emails, and a positive sense of humor, so I agreed to meet him for lunch. The day of the lunch came, and he canceled at the last minute. OK fine no problem i said. He still was interested in meeting me, but it ended up that we made 2 more dates in the coming weeks, but he canceled on both of them too, so i wrote back and said, well maybe we just should move on, and i never heard back from him. Fast forward 5 years or so, and BF was in the middle of some big story when he mentioned how he had a "friend" who started dating someone after meeting her online, but he was worried that she might still be considering other guys online, so BF suggested they make up a fake profile with a picture of a nice looking guy, have this guy email her and show her some interest, and then see how far she will go with this new guy..."If she wants to meet him in person, you could always cancel at the last minute", BF said.
So...let's fast forward to today...when you take into consideration how BF had no problem writing emails to attorneys and others using my name when he had to know that doing that would have real consequences come back on me, that he has hacked my email many times and read my emails, especially emails to and from my friend that he was so nasty to on our big trip where she said he was abusive because he wanted to see if we were "bashing him", AND then add BF's history of impersonating other people online to the fact that "Lori" only signed up to this forum about an hour before she posted to me, and she never told her own story or commented on any other post but mine.....it makes me wonder.
This is not abuse...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< you might get some peace if you would shut up saying such awful things!!!" Of course, he accused me of verbal abuse for my comment. <<<
This not abuse. It's straight talk. It's a wake up call. It's not abuse.
He may not like hearing it. He may be in denial so your words burst his bubble, but it's not abuse. Actually, I think many with ADHD need to have their bubbles burst on a regular basis. I think much of their denial is because their words and actions weren't monitored as children. They rarely, if ever, got called on their BS.
PTSD Not ADHD?
Submitted by kellyj on
OW....I didn't go back and reread everything that Sickandtired had said but If I recall.....no one has diagnosed him officially with anything? I want to step back here for a minute from everything I have said (and the things you have said too). I have found that I usually agree with most of the things you have said in the past but in this case......you might be jumping the gun. I have a strong suspicion that ADHD may not be the issue with BF. Then again.....you and I are not qualified to make determinations like this. I think I was trying to say this in more words before.
But from what little I do know and know about myself and ADHD......something is not adding up here and it sounds like S is struggling with this herself? That's my take on everything she has said and she has done a pretty thorough job of including a lot of information and trying not to be too one sided herself. There's a lot of information here and it doesn't sound that clear cut to me.
If I had to guess right now........I put my money on PTSD as the core of her BF's issue and not ADHD. Everything I know and have witnessed about someone who has been severely abused as a child and the resulting behavior seems to line up pretty well. This is the kind of thing that I was in my own experience with madam X but there are a lot of things missing in the description of her BF between the two and I hope I made that clear. I think these two can look very similar independently of one another. I'm wording it like this since this is about all my opinion is worth her......a source for wager with a gut feeling as my only means to say anything.
I think her BF needs professional help and she could use some herself because she is too deep (enmeshed) with him to make good decisions right now. I think this has a lot to do with her own confusion and vacillating which she has pretty much stated all along. There is enough in her story for me to think that their relationship has a co-dependent quality to it and that is a very difficult thing to break free of while you are still inside or it. I think the value of her coming here is to gain some perspective that she is having trouble with right now and for that reason.....it's not a good idea to try and pin things down too much for her. I saying this on her behalf and what I see.
This is a really long wind- up in disagreeing with you on some things you said here (with all due respect). I'm trying to specific to S here now and moving away from generalities about co-morbid issues and ADHD itself.
I'm also going back to what her niece and friend said about the ticking time bomb (being volitile)
<<< you might get some peace if you would shut up saying such awful things!!!" Of course, he accused me of verbal abuse for my comment. <<<
This not abuse. It's straight talk. It's a wake up call. It's not abuse. Not for someone who has PTSD and is hypersensitive and is volatile like it sounds. This is a bad idea and not going to do anything but trigger someone with PTSD. All her BF hears in this is "SHUT UP...AWFUL THINGS". That's enough to trigger her BF and set him off. It may not be abuse for everyone else....but for him, you just hit the nuke button in his head and that's all it can take.
It's not what she was doing and the reasons why she was saying it that are wrong....it how she is going about it that is really important here......consider your audience in this case.
He may not like hearing it. He may be in denial so your words burst his bubble, but it's not abuse. Actually, I think many with ADHD need to have their bubbles burst on a regular basis. I think much of their denial is because their words and actions weren't monitored as children. They rarely, if ever, got called on their BS. Again....this is an ineffective way to burst someone's bubble who is in denial or has PTSD. All this does is come across as combative and aggressive and trigger them to do more.....dig in, pull out the artillery and start firing at you. You have to remember that once the defense alarm goes off....no message or info is getting through after that. The message or bubble bursting will get lost and there won't be any learning from it. Whether you like it or not.....this is what will happen. If the environment is oppressive and he is repressed emotionally from the same kind of environment in his past......this is the kind of thing that will only be throwing gas on the fire I think
You need to play chess with a checker player in this case and think about your next move and not react yourself out of your own frustration and anger. This right there......is the source for continuing the problem and not getting anywhere with a person like this.
As right as rain as you feel about doing it.....it's the wrong thing to do for the reasons I said. You will only make it worse for yourself by approaching it this way.
. I think much of their denial is because their words and actions weren't monitored as children. They rarely, if ever, got called on their BS. I do get from your own experience that this might have been the case with you H. I'm guessing that from the sound of all the things you've said.
But in her BF case (and mine as well to lessor degree) he was beaten for for insurrection with highly strict and controlling parents. I don't think lack of monitoring has anything to do with it here in fact.....the opposite extreme. Being called out for every word or thing you did and living under a microscope is more like it.
This is the source for the PTSD and why this is just you hitting that button for them and why you need to do just the opposite of the things you are saying unless this is the results you want to keep happening. This teaches them NOTHING and only makes it worse for you.
You HAVE to consider the audience and HOW you say things and how this is going to effect them. What you think would be a good idea based on yourself is a recipe for disaster in this case.
Bottom line here.......he needs professional help or she should get out. He's still living under that same microscope and projecting that onto her. This cannot be healthy for her and why she is having so much trouble right now since she is living under that same microscope with him and I know from my own experience....this really SUCKS for her.
I can't see any other way around this unless he gets a different kind of wake up call that will get him into therapy. I do agree with you there. I think she needs to do this for herself (even in the short term) as well to help her make decisions right now.
It sounds like there is a lot of water under the bridge here to be able to really sort this all out very well. IMHO
J
I agree that it may not be ADHD....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I just wrote ADHD as kind of a "catch all" because that is the point of this forum.
Many people posting are actually describing symptoms that are more serous than ADHD, but since this is an ADHD forum, we tend to call it ADHD.
Yes, the BF may have PTSD from the childhood abuse, he may also have a PD, he may also have something else.
I don't think it is ADHD or PTSD which let him to repeatedly behave inappropriately in regards to the lawsuit with SickandTired's brother. He ignored "boundaries" and wrote emails in her name, wrote things that made things far more difficult for her, would not back down, would not behave, and made threats to people. He made much of the lawsuit about himself. That is a red flag for a personality disorder. Plus, he has "drawn a line in the sand" if she were to make amends with her brother. He also made this into some sort of test of loyalty. Who does he think he is? This was family business, he wasn't family.
(I'm still not sure why SickandTired didn't either change her email password or inform everyone to only accept emails from her that were from an email address that the BF didn't know about. )
As I described in an earlier post, my own husband behaved extremely inappropriately when I had to file a police report about a crime that I had witnessed (H was not a witness). The police officer wanted to record my version of what I had seen. H kept trying to tell the story. The cop kept telling H that H had to be quiet because H had not been a witness. H could not stop. I had to arrange to come back the next day,. H raged about my "lack of loyalty." There was no dealing with an irrational person who had made this into something about him. How crazy is that??? I witness a crime, and somehow it becomes a test of loyalty to H who wasn't even there?
I Remember
Submitted by kellyj on
my former employer would walk around a mumble "it's not right, it's not right" all the time. Even when the law said that he had to do something he didn't want to do. "it's not right." My mother on another note would always say "say......XXXXXXX." I would tell her, "I KNOW what to say" thinking that part was obvious. She never stopped doing this no matter how many times I would say it. Another one.....she ran cold and I run hot in body temperature. I'm also acclimated to the cold because I spend a lot of time outdoors and use to it. Combine the two and I am normally too hot rather than too cold. She use to chase me out of the house with a coat and insist that I take one. Since I didn't wear it.....I kept leaving my coat places and forget about it and then get into trouble for "losing my coat." errrrrrrrrrrr
This never stopped but I started refusing to take my coat with me. She'd say "but won't you get cold??" I'd say....NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (for the twelfth millionth time!!!!!!)
"I know when I'm hot and I know when I'm cold. How hard is that one to figure out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" sheeesh!!
I know this sounds like motherly advise but it wasn't that....this was different.
Another one......she would watch me do something that scared her while I was doing it and start going "ooh, ooh, be careful, ooh , ooh...don't cut yourself...ooh, ooh......don't slip and let that blade cut you....ooh, ooh." She never stopped doing this no matter how many times I would stop and stare at her and go "what is going to make me cut myself is YOU....going ooh, ooh....don't cut yourself.....ay.....batta...batta...swiiiiing!. Do you get it???????? errrrrrrrrrrrrr"
Nope....she never got it. Later I would yell at her and order her out of the room (with my finger pointing to the door) before I would continue because she could never stop no matter how many times I said it too her.
Somehow.....what is happening does not compute or fit into how they see things and they HAVE to do something about it. They HAVE to!!! or else they can't stand the anxiety it is causing them.
From this, without knowing any of the things I know now.....I started telling my mother for example "do not impose your own inability (or ineptitude) to do something on me just because you can't do it yourself." Not nicely either. This has been one of my running comments when someone does this kind of thing with me. At this point in time......I pick and choose who and when but none the less......it's right on the tip of my tongue whenever I feel this same thing happening. This is not being oppositional or defiant in this case. This is a very specific thing based on this very specific behavior not just being obstinate for no reason.
Of course.....as is with my mother or anyone who has done this with me in the past......they don't get it. What I get now is how ineffective this was and only made them angry at me for being belligerent or disrespectful to them.....as they saw it. Which one is first here....the cart or the horse?
The problem with having ADHD is.....you are the boy who cried wolf for all the times that are not like this and you miss things or are careless. In my case (knock on wood)....I still have all my fingers and still use power saws and tools to this day." How can that be??? lol
J
I wrote that response late at night and misread a word...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I misread the word "shut up" and thought she had written "stop".
I agree that people with a PD or PTSD are going to trigger at the words, "shut up". I thought she told him to "stop saying such awful things", which is not abusive at all.
If he truly does have PTSD, then he's like a ticking time bomb anyway, so she's lucky that he thinks it's his idea that he is leaving her. (Sickandtired....it is to YOUR benefit that he thinks it's his idea, believe me. When H moved out and filed for divorce, I let him think that it was all his idea. When dealing with unstable people, you don't want them thinking that you've kicked them out or that you rejected them. H "delighted" in words like, "I am dumping you." (lol...as if those are words that a 58 year old man would use in regards to a wife of 25+ years...lol....but that just shows his maturity level). My sister, a therapist, was 100% right, he needed me more than I needed him (emotionally). He came crawling back, but I don't rub that fact in his face - his ego couldn't take it.
My H also suffers from PTSD from a VERY abusive father. His dad was mentally ill, and his mom did nothing to protect her kids from her nasty, evil, husband. H will tell you that they lived in constant fear of his raging physical and abusive temper. He'd belt them across the room. He physically abused them in a horrific fashion. He was like a time bomb that no one knew when the fuse would blow.
More.....PTSD
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi sickandtired,
I already told OW my thoughts on some of this but I wanted to add to this from the things you said. The reason's why I think that PTSD is really the biggest issue you are dealing with.
I feel so sorry for him, and I have communicated my concern for him, tried to validate his feelings, I tried to give him all sorts of pleasant experiences, like trips and concerts, so that he could have something to take his mind away from memories of abuse and rejection, but nothing seems to work....If we are in a beautiful national park or something, and I mention the beauty of nature, he will respond with something like, "Well if I was the Creator....I would have never made ants or mosquitoes, because they are nasty, they get in your face, they bite you and you break out, and can get a rash....." Can you guys out there see what I mean? His mind always looks for the imperfect part of the scene, focuses on it, and endlessly describes all of the potential negatives associated with it, all the while ignoring or not being able to relate to the beauty, the serenity and the joy a day in nature can give your soul, even if there are a few ants at the picnic. He is very irritated by smells, noises, and light.
For someone with PTSD......lots of things can trigger this in them. It can be anything that they associate with the trauma and it doesn't necessarily have to be the exact same thing....just similar enough to something that reminds them of it. This of course is happening on a sub conscious level and they may not have any awareness of it. Large crowds in a concert will be enough to make them uncomfortable and feel the need to find an escape route. Escape routes or always having a means to escape is a big theme for someone with PTSD. Anything that is attacking them like bugs might be enough to make them feel like just that....something is attacking me!
Now put yourself in the situation with the legal battle with your brother. People chasing you in vans and coming after you with subpoenas....tracking you down, following you around....coming to your home? Think in terms of PTSD and how that might affect a person like this including the resulting suspicion? Your brother created this effect in him and the resulting anxiety it caused him. This in itself could be why he cannot forgive him and why he cannot let go of it. It's the effect this had on him that he might not be able to get past or is still experiencing to this day or....gets re-ignited every time he thinks about it. This is a visceral physical reaction and that in itself is not something that he has much control over.
A person like this is going to be moody, prickly, irritable, reactive and volatile when they sense any perceived threat or attack or put into situations where they have no control over. Patience will be dependent on how much anxiety they are able to stand at any given time. Sending the letters to the attorneys may have been his physical manifestation of trying to get it over with and make it go away as fast as possible. Internally....his peace of mind and physical well being is being threatened so therefore....he becomes threatening himself and he has reached his limits. Of course.....this has nothing to do with the reality of the situation but none the less.....on a physical level for him....it was what he was trying to do. Perhaps?
Dogs and animals are confirmed to have a quieting effect on people. They use dogs in therapy and in hospitals for this very effect in calming and soothing patients. Taking extreme care of the source for this effect and his inability to "self soothe" could be seen as a manifestation of this for him I think? Possibly?
Being difficult in neurotic ways like with the food or being picky are just more manifestations of anxiety and obsessive and compulsive behavior associated with this. I see this with my wife a lot and it is the reason she is like this. She also has the same issues with "bugs" but is not so extreme.
Well, they are taking my joy now, too, and I went through a lot of therapy to get over my anger associated with my divorce to a cheating airline pilot who gave me STD's and contributed to my heart condition...but my BF's coping skills are so poor, it is hard for me to remember the lessons that were so hard fought for in my own therapy, and I could feel myself slipping into his bleak negative hopeless world, instead of holding on to the progress, stability, happiness, and peace I fought so hard to get back after my divorce. Please give me some ideas out there.
What you went through sounds pretty traumatic in itself. Possibly to a much lessor degree....you are experiencing the same things he is. Poor coping skills is another major component to PTSD. I think this is where the two of you are competing together (competing sensitivities).
There's no "good guy...bad guy" here. Only what is. It is also what I was saying about being more similar to your BF in some ways than you might think. His issues may be triggering your past issues too in a vicious cycle. I do think at this point...he is not going to be able to "fix" this problem without some help but I also think that this is why he cannot go out and find a job. He may be too incapacitated by all of this to be able to do so.
I just wanted to throw this out in everything that people had said as a possible source for what you are looking for?
J
thanks J
Submitted by sickandtired on
Well I got an email from BF this morning, saying that he wants to come over and get the last of his things. He said he cannot find a couples counselor here, and has decided he is moving back to Oklahoma. He said he looked at jobs here (AZ) for the past couple of days, and cannot find any here, but he thinks he can get one in OK. He was trained as an AC repairman and had a license in OK that has lapsed, but he could take some refresher course and get the license back... The state of AZ does not even require a license, and there are certainly a LOT of broken air conditioners here in AZ, but he says he can't find work here???
I feel like he really didn't try to find another marriage counselor...I know of 5 or 6 in town, but they are all female, and one male in Tucson that I said I would go to with him, but for some reason in his email, BF said he could not find one. I offered to pay him back for all of the work he has done for me...I said I would quit-claim the other house to him, pay the next 2 years of property taxes, insurance, and utilities for him so he will be able to afford to keep it, while he finds an A/C job or does some work for me, and he could have his freedom, but still have somewhat of a safety net till he gets on his feet, but he said no, that he doesn't want anything from me. He is leaving me.
I'm Sorry.....
Submitted by kellyj on
and I think that answers a lot of questions. I would strongly urge you to hesitate and think about what you just did in the mean time. Do not sell yourself short. He's the one who is bouncing around and going up and down all over the place not you. You have the luxury of sitting still and not doing anything right now. You shouldn't have to give up yourself just to be in a relationship with anyone, you are worth a lot more than that and shouldn't have to pay him anything for the last ten years of his life. You aren't responsible for anything of the choices he's made and if made the choice to not to work or do this on his own and not communicate that too you the whole time and say so then you don't owe him a thing. If he is an honorable man as it now appears that he is.......I would not want anything from you either with only one caveat in saying this.
If he really is a Narcissist at his core ( or Borderline as it appeared to OW ) there is a thing that these people do called "Hoovering" (like the vacuum cleaner) Be aware that he might come back to you later and play on your heartstrings again.....it's not uncommon for a person like this. If that is the case.....expect another call from him down the road and pay particular attention to his motives and what he wants from you at that time. This might have been a test to see what you would do and if that is the case.....you flunked ( or passed ) either way you want to look at it. It's called getting one foot in the door and proving to you that he can be trusted....then once he has that again......he will use that to come in from a different angel and still succeed at getting what he wants what ever it is.
If it's money.....you just offered to pay him some. He may want more and that is why he would do such a thing. I don't know of course but I am just fortune telling her with you so that you will be aware of such a thing and recognize it for what it is. Just be careful will you?
Having said all of that.....I am really sorry but it might be for the best. If anything.....you will know what is was that was holding you to him despite all the problems you two were having together. This can be a real opportunity for your own self growth if you learn from it and take advantage of it. Right now however, take care of yourself and find out what you want. If anything.....this will be a positive thing for you once you give it some time and let things settle.
Good luck.
Is Neal Young touring this year? He's one of my favorites......seen him many times. If he is......GO!!! lol
J
thanks for the kind words J
Submitted by sickandtired on
Thanks for reminding me that I did not cause this problem he has...sad thing is, he will be taking the same problems with him, unresolved, wherever he goes. This will show my age big time, but Mark Lindsey, of Paul Revere and the Raiders had a hit back in the early sixties called "Kicks"... remember that one??? The line that relates here is....."it seems no matter what you do, you can never run away from you..."
Neil does a benefit concert every year in October for the Bridge School that he and Peggi founded for their son, Ben, who has severe disabilities. BF and I went there 2 years ago, right after BF's sister had died. It was like CHURCH to me to see Neil again, especially when the first song he sang was an acoustic version of "Changes". I cried the entire time, because it was such a healing experience for me...also it was the last time CSNY played together, because of arguments with between Neil and David Crosby regarding Neil's impending divorce due to his affair with Daryl Hannah. Poor Neil, Daryl is bi-polar and prone to nasty treatment of her men, like Jackson Browne.....Oh god, this mental illness thing has so much damage in its wake... :( Poor Peggi
Stop...please stop.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
I feel like he really didn't try to find another marriage counselor...I know of 5 or 6 in town, but they are all female, and one male in Tucson that I said I would go to with him, but for some reason in his email, BF said he could not find one. I offered to pay him back for all of the work he has done for me...I said I would quit-claim the other house to him, pay the next 2 years of property taxes, insurance, and utilities for him so he will be able to afford to keep it, while he finds an A/C job or does some work for me, and he could have his freedom, but still have somewhat of a safety net till he gets on his feet, but he said no, that he doesn't want anything from me.
He is leaving me.
<<<<
That seems to be the main thing to you, he is "leaving" you. (thank goodness, but I know that it's painful!) Please do not try to buy him back. It's one thing to pay him for things that you might owe him, but what could you possibly owe him since in the last 10 years he hasn't brought in an income and you have been providing for him totally. You have more than paid him for whatever.
I think that your self-esteem is so damaged by the ex-H and now this guy. Why are you selling yourself short?
Of course you are sad, and probably scared. Right now, you're probably feeling some of the old feelings that you had when your marriage broke up. Right? It's ok to grieve this situation and you should.
Can you hire someone to come in and help you? Is there a teenager in the neighborhood that you can hire to come by after school each day to help with the pets and other things? It would seem like a couple of hours of work each day would help you a lot. I don't know how you regularly feed your pets, but there are feeders for dry food that dispense. When I have to go out of town, I try to make it easier for H to feed our pets, so we use those things.
Do I think this guy is going to come back? ABSOLUTELY. He needs you more than you need him. Yes, you both need each other in different ways. You are the one holding the cards. Please stop offering to buy him. Not only because it's unseemly, but what next?
Imagine that you did give him all those things, and then you're still not happy with the relationship, then won't you feel terrible that you gave him all those things? '
Right now, he's feeling "powerful" and that is fine. It is motivating him to get out and get a job. He may do that, but more likely he will only do it for a short time. Do you think he has it in him to put in the regular hours, day after day, week after week, month after month? I don't think so. I think he will ask to come back. If so, then you could negotiate some terms that work out for both of you. Going to a therapist, paying him for "doing a job", etc.
You've mentioned that he has a lot of credit card debt. Is he in arrears with that? I think you may have mentioned that he is.
When H and I separated, about two years ago, he was also so determined. I didn't fight him at all. I never called him....ever. I kept busy with my business and our children. Soon, he was miserable. He found himself staying in bed all day, using up vacation days, showing up late for work when he did go. He wasn't doing any of the things that he thought he would be doing. He came home about 10 weeks later.
He has gotten better than he was, simply because the separation taught him a couple things about himself. Is he fine now? No. He's still an alcoholic, but drinks much more sporadically, rather than every night as before. He retired, so the stress of work is now gone. He enjoys helping me with my business, and that's been a big plus. It's also good for him, since he works the aspects of the job that "fit well" with his ADHD and OCD.
His job had become so stressful the last few years after it had vastly changed. Retiring took that stress away. I have detailed how his job changed and how it had hurt him in another post, so I won't go into detail here, but suffice it say, his dream job of over 25 years had drastically changed into a job the last few years that was a horrible fit for him and his personality. That stress drove him to chug booze every night after I went to sleep.
If at some point your BF comes back and you can easily afford to "hire" him as some kind of personal assistant and handyman, then fine. But, please don't put your parents' things in his name.
By hiring him, and paying his a salary he'll have some dignity. He has been lacking some of that for awhile. I know that in some ways it doesn't make sense because you shared so much with him, but he may have felt like a "kept man". I don't know what the best approach would be to pay him. On one hand, it makes sense to pay him a salary, but then he needs to pay you for his share of living expenses. On the other hand, it may make sense to pay him a lower salary with the idea that he is also getting free room and board. I think the former is better than the latter because he'll have a sense that he's paying his own way. You could even quietly put his room and board payments into a secret account for his future.
why is it your business
Submitted by Betrayed on
So overwhelmed, she has offered to do just that allready and he refused, what is your beef with him, do you just hate all men? ....like me for instance, I said nothing to you and you attacked me when I was only trying to give her a man's perspective.
You took my words out of context to try and make me sound like I was contradicting my own words, you have some serious issues, no one should be listening to you. Your name should be Overwhelmed divorcee, it probably is by now. I see you have been on here just over 8 months.
Does misery love company? Are you trying to destroy others chances to make their relationships work just because your marriage is a failure? Sounds like it.
It is negative uneducated people like you that make the world worse off but I guess since you are single you have too much time on your hands, I feel sorry for the next guy that comes along.
I am sure it won't be long before you start putting words in his mouth too like you tried doing to me, or painting him black just because he is the wrong sex. Hey why don;t you try women, all marriage is legal now. That might work for you.... seriously.
why is it your business
Submitted by Betrayed on
So overwhelmed, she has offered to do just that allready and he refused, what is your beef with him, do you just hate all men? ....like me for instance, I said nothing to you and you attacked me when I was only trying to give her a man's perspective.
You took my words out of context to try and make me sound like I was contradicting my own words, you have some serious issues, no one should be listening to you. Your name should be Overwhelmed divorcee, it probably is by now. I see you have been on here just over 8 months.
Does misery love company? Are you trying to destroy others chances to make their relationships work just because your marriage is a failure? Sounds like it.
It is negative uneducated people like you that make the world worse off but I guess since you are single you have too much time on your hands, I feel sorry for the next guy that comes along.
I am sure it won't be long before you start putting words in his mouth too like you tried doing to me, or painting him black just because he is the wrong sex. Hey why don't you try women, all marriage is legal now. That might work for you.... seriously.
Are you her BF?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Are you her BF?
Ditto?
Submitted by kellyj on
Ditto?
shape shifter
Submitted by sickandtired on
Hi J and Overwhelmed,
I got a really angry email from X-BF last night, complaining about how I had "attacked him" behind his back by telling a bunch of strangers half-truths just trying to get people on my side...it's none of their business!!!, BF wrote. I am sorry, OW, that he was so verbally abusive to you. I know both of you are trying to help, and I appreciate your kind words and sharing of how you have dealt with your difficulties with your spouses. I am calling a locksmith today, and not giving away any of my parents things to someone who can't even respect that sometimes people need a social support network...nobody's ganging up on anybody...we are just a group of people trying to find answers by sharing our stories, and we have every right to do that without having some coward come on here and inject himself into something that is none of HIS business. I am so angry and embarrassed that he would treat you this way, OW, you have too many nasty things being said to you in your own home, you don't need some psycho stranger with a chip on his shoulder to verbally abuse you, too. I guess I fanned the flames by sharing my suspicions with you about doc t not being genuine.
No Need to Apologize For Him to Me
Submitted by kellyj on
Read what I wrote before I read this comment......I hadn't read either ones you made before I did which pretty much sums up the way I feel about things? Now that I just read this and your other comment...it's really fascinating how everything you said was true about him (going with your assumption which appears self evident at this point). I'm not going to start bashing you BF which is not what I have tried to do all along. What I have been trying to do is expose the truth and identify patterns of behavior from the things that you have shared. I'm certainly no saint and my own past behavior has been shall we say "less than ideal". lol But the point here is.....I not doing that any more and finding better ways to deal with things. As my T has pointed out to me years ago......you have your own pathologies to work on. Ouch! That one hurt. Since then I found out what those were.....I have found better ways and at the same time....discovered how easy it is to see some of the same things in other people at the same time.......that was a bonus that I hadn't considered. As they say.....it works both ways. LOL
If you can't dish it out and take it at the same time.....don't dish it out in the first place! Keep your mouth shut and say nothing if you don't have anything good to say. Speak for the benefit of the listener with their best interest in mind not yours. Silence is golden.
I could think of more if you give me more time. lol
J
EXACTLY
Submitted by sickandtired on
J, I can't count the number of times I have made that same observation...he can dish it out but he can't take it. There was always such a "double standard" while living with him. He would rant all day and all night (notice how his email last night was sent around 3am??? He is ALWAYS on the computer very late at night like that) he would work himself up to the point of loudly running around the house screaming how god put him here to protect me, and how he was going to kill my brother, and enjoy the look on his face when he sees his life is ending blah blah blah......BUT when I want the old dangerous rotten steps fixed, or don't want the fucking flyswatter on the table...I have to watch my TONE, because I have a harsh TONE. Jesus Christ!!!....he can scream all night about killing people, but the real problem is my TONE. It must suck to be that mean and that sensitive at the same time....now you guys can REALLY see what I have had to put up with. Thanks again J.
Here's The Problem
Submitted by kellyj on
Now that he's listening. All of that anger and those ruminating thoughts.....that tape that keeps getting played in your head that was put there by (in my mind) by ferverant religious zealots (no offense to anyone here....just remembering the things you said about his father beating him for anything that a self righteous person like this deems "unholy" or is not "walking the path" is the same God Damn thing he is doing. Taking something from it's pure source and perverting it into something that is evil and "unholy". That kind of puritanical none sense needs to be erased from your head and needs to be replace it it's pure version again because that file has been corrupted along with the entire programming on your hard drive. That's where it starts and that's were you need to start in getting that shit out of your head first before anything that comes out the other end is not going to get filtered and corrupted as well.
I can totally see it from the eyes of a child. Not only is your father the omnipotent being that every one needs to rely on and trust (which you do of course)....this one has got God to back him up on everything he does. "God is on my side and he says I must do these things to you." Right. How do you argue with that one as a child. Holy shit! And they use the phrase....."mind Fucked by religion." Perfect case in point. No wonder he hates religion. I would too.
I totally get it and to a lessor degree than that.....I had some of the same crap being pulled on me however....I had other sources at the time that intervened and had other resources to draw from to keep that from completely taking over. My mom was the one who was working this angle with me but I could see through it after a while when I got a little older. I was still a kid when this happened so I am thankful for the influences I had to keep me straight. And she got it from someone...who appears to have been more like his father. A generation in between was enough to buffer this kind of thing for me. I remember when my grandmother came to look after us when my parents went of vacation when I was around 6 years old and my mother called to see how we were doing. First thing I said to my mother was "how long before you COME HOME!!!!!!?????????" lol I can;t imagine what this would have been like for my mother. The one thing she had going for her was that she was really intelligent despite all the things she had working against her.
I apologize up front for making light of this situation but I am compelled to include the mental image (a clip from youtube) that just came to mind here as I wrote the part about God saying that "I had to do it too you." It was either this one or the scene from Caddy Shack where Judge Smeals tells Billy that he had sent boys younger than him to the gas chamber because "he owed it to them."
anyway...more humor https://youtu.be/kMjqlVcLCmg
https://youtu.be/Fw9IqUgGlzs
J
So true J...
Submitted by c ur self on
(Taking something from it's pure source and perverting it into something that is evil and "unholy". ) This statement of your's is the truth laid down by Paul to the Romans in chapter 8...The fleshly mind will always be opposition to the Spiritual....
This will always be the case when we try and filter what is Holy with a mind that can only produce faulty thinking unless it's experiencing that which is Holy...So the product being produced will always be the Personification of man's view of what is right and true vs what you stated what is being produced by what is Holy.....
C
That's The Goal Isn't It C?
Submitted by kellyj on
What is kindness?
When we exhibit the kindness of God, we are tender, benevolent, and useful to others. Every action, every word will have the flavor of grace in it. To maintain this attitude toward those we love is hard enough. To express kindness toward those who are against us requires the work of God (2 Corinthians 6:4-6). That is why kindness is a fruit of the Spirit.
There you go:)
J
Amen J, that's the gospel :)
Submitted by c ur self on
My struggles are never anyone else's fault....They always occur when I take my eyes off the spiritual...At that point I make myself susceptible to degradation of mind, which always follows when looking for life in the physical...
If I start down the wrong road to begin with, 10, 20, 30 years later I will still be searching, because, the reality of my efforts (seeking abundant life in the physical realm) has kept me on a road that will never lead me to where I desire to go....
C
Wrong Road Right Road
Submitted by jennalemone on
I like this, C.
Dishing it out, but not being able to take it, is a common theme
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< Jesus Christ!!!....he can scream all night about killing people, but the real problem is my TONE.<<<
The "tone" is a common complaint. Our kids have long gotten to the age where they can recognize (and back me up) that H often uses an annoyed "tone" from everything to how I park my car, to how I feed our pets, to how I manage my business, to how I raised our kids. And, the tone isn't only used when he doesn't like something I have done, it's used when he's requesting something. When he wakes up, he often wants coffee brought to him. Most people would nicely say, "could you please bring me a cup of coffee; it will help me wake up. No, he's annoyed that he's tired, so his "tone" when making the request reflects his mood.
He so often had a "tone" before he retired that it's almost became his default voice.
However, if I don't frame any and all requests with "fluff," then I am accused of having a tone. H expects everything to said to him in an extra sensitive way - which just isn't normal for people who are around each other 24/7. If he's getting up to, for instance, get a soda pop, and I ask him to get me one as well, he wants the request to be something like, "I know that you're tired, too. I see that you're getting up to get a soda pop, if you don't mind and it won't be too much trouble, can you please get one for me, too. I would really appreciate it. I know that you don't have to it." Seriously, if I just said, "while you're grabbing a soda can, can you bring one for me, too?", then he'd later say that I "ordered" him to do it and I used a "tone". I am not kidding.
I try to explain to him that people in long-term relationships do not talk that way. A simple, "hey, can you get one for me, too, please?" usually suffices. And when the person brings it to you, a simple thank you is enough. However, for H, a simple thank you is often not enough when he's "in a mood." Instead he wants to hear a several sentences describing how thankful you are. Again, that's not normal for people in a relationship.
>>>> It must suck to be that mean and that sensitive at the same time....<<<
Yes, that is what is going on.
HI OWW....
Submitted by c ur self on
He can scream all night about killing people, but the real problem is my TONE.<<<....This is common, I've come to expect it from my wife and myself...It's just away to fight back vs owning my own actions, and seeing myself....Until I'm ready to repent or capable of repenting...This will always be the product....Trying to save my life!
I could tell it was him.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
That's why I called him out.
No need to apologize. You're not responsible for what he says or does. I can tell that you're a kind person. I can tell that JJ is a kind person. I can tell that a bunch of people on this forum are kind people.
I hope that your BF gets professional help. His anger isn't healthy for him, nor you.
thanks OW
Submitted by sickandtired on
I can tell that YOU are a kind person, too...and a strong person. I admire that in you and in J, too. Thanks so much guys for helping me realize that I am not crazy...X-BF busted himself in his nasty attempt to Gaslight me. I am so thankful to feel free of his bullshit...I know to keep my guard up for more bullshit and hoovering and guilt trips, but now that I know I can see through it, I know my heart is finally free. I am feeling hope for the first time in a long time.
Let's all just take a deep breath and try to enjoy this day and be free of others' negativity....I think I will whip out some of that legal medical MJ I have been prescribed for anxiety, and just enjoy it for its own sake....AAhhhh....
What's Up Doc?
Submitted by kellyj on
You made some lucid statements that I agreed with in your initial post that were both compassionate and well balanced as I said and whether your handle says Doc or not is kind of irrelevant. It appears you have lost some of that decorum? What is your vested interest in being here in the first place....you haven't said but as far as I can see at this point....opinions are like assholes....everyone's got one and they all stink.
I'm the guy with ADHD here.....how do you think I feel at times when I read some of the things that are said on this forum? It's the reason I came here and started contributing.....to learn how to deal with my emotions and not be an asshole about it. I've found once I learned to do that.....I started hearing the people here and understand what they are going through. I take that and use it with my wife in order to do the same thing with her even when she's being completely unreasonable and kind of emotionally psychotic at times from my perspective. I'm using that reference in a common vernacular sense but none the less.....calling her an emotionally out of control lunatic, emotional sub-species or a Neanderthal when she has lost control of her emotions and says or does hurtful things to me.....or any other choice names that I have used in the past like the comments you made to OW are exactly why I came here in the first place......to stop doing that.
You seem rather insulated and emotionally unintelligent yourself. It's easy to throw insults from the peanut gallery and make passing comments about other people from up above where you are safe. Why don't you step down onto the playing field with me and get your hands dirty bro? Let's see what you are made of and if you have what it takes?
You obviously have not done your home work. OW is not single and has made a decision that works for her to stay in a bad situation and is trying to make the best of it. Her opinions are no different than anyone else here and are just as tainted with her own emotions as mine are and needs a safe place to vent and not have some one make derogatory statements to her like the ones you just made and yet appears to have no reason to be here?
What is your reason to be here? You haven't said?
A no response is the same as saying you are full of shit in my book. Just say'in.
J
ditto
Submitted by sickandtired on
Fucking A right, J.
Notice how he only picks on women??? ...I doubt he will even respond to you.
Facinating....A Learning Oppotuntiy
Submitted by kellyj on
Coming back here......I thought since S and T's BF sort of......volunteered so to speak....I thought this would be a real time account of a few things to learn from. Again, I'm not bashing him or trying to humiliate him (I said my peace already) but I thought I would share the same things that went through my mind as I read his comment to OW......it loaded with fun.
Here's how projection works.....feel free to correct me but I think it's in the ball park....
what is your beef with him, do you just hate all men? ....like me for instance, I said nothing to you and you attacked me when I was only trying to give her a man's perspective. I've found this curious. My experience with the other side of the coin comes with women who are like this who have an attitude towards men. It starts with the fathers treatment and disappointed (or abuse) or them in every case I can think of. Sometimes husbands but I don't think it starts there. His mother did something (or did not intervene) when his father was abusing him. I think this much is clear. He's still the victim of his mothers failure to protect him and he see's women as an adversary and is still fighting that battle. The one that never got finished with his mother.
I see this a lot with my wife.....her real father was a piece of work. I won't get into it but it went way past crossing the line.
You took my words out of context to try and make me sound like I was contradicting my own words, you have some serious issues, no one should be listening to you. Your name should be Overwhelmed divorcee, it probably is by now. I see you have been on here just over 8 months.
strike that and reread it as follows.....I've been exposed and now I am contradicting my own words.....what I am doing shows someone with a serious issue and now I have exposed myself but I had to because no one listens to me. I afraid I will be divorced soon because that's what I'm getting ready to do....should already be by now.
Does misery love company? Are you trying to destroy others chances to make their relationships work just because your marriage is a failure? Sounds like it. Strike that and reverse it as it reads. Pure unadulterated projection.
It is negative uneducated people like you that make the world worse off but I guess since you are single you have too much time on your hands, I feel sorry for the next guy that comes along.
ditto...
I am sure it won't be long before you start putting words in his mouth too like you tried doing to me, or painting him black just because he is the wrong sex. Hey why don't you try women, all marriage is legal now. That might work for you.... seriously.
I am sure it won't be long before you start putting words in his mouth too like you tried doing to me, or painting him black just because he is the wrong sex. Hey why don't you try women, all marriage is legal now. That might work for you.... seriously. More projection but now it's attacking women in general but also saying " I have too much time on my hands and I feel sorry for myself and will be worse off than I was before (again) at the hands of another women who is attacking me and it just proves my suspicions.
He's the victim again ....
He who smelt it....dealt it, I always say. But there is no need to be hurt or take this kind of thing personally if you can read it for what it really is. No one can abuse you with something that you haven't done or is made up in their heads. Irritating and annoying yes.....without question! lol Just don't believe it or take it in.
And don't try and argue with it either.....that will just make you crazy if you do. That part would be on your end not the other person. Just say'in.
J
Is this even possible?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< but he said no, that he doesn't want anything from me. <<<
How will he get to OK, get a place to stay, pay for a refresher course, feed himself, pay for gas, and so forth? Where would he get the money? Wouldn't the landlord refuse to rent to him since he doesn't have the means to pay rent right now? Wouldn't he fail a credit check? I'm not sure he's thought all of this through.
Or does he have relatives there that he's going to move in with?
I don't see how someone without any money can just move to another state, get his A/C repair certification renewed, etc, without any money?
This reminds me of my housekeeper's son. He kept saying that he was going to move back to Austin. He'd pack his bags, make a big show of it, but the reality is, he didn't have the few thousand dollars he'd need as "seed money" to keep him going until he had a regular paycheck coming in. What will your BF do for money until he has a paycheck coming in?
I Was Wondering the Same Thing?
Submitted by kellyj on
It will be interesting to see how that works? Either one of two things......he will be right back or he had a plan all along (some other means or someone who will support him). If that's the case....who might that be or where did he get the funds? I think the phrase for someone who is stingy or the opposite of a spend thrift is "someone who thinks with their wallet" is the reverse in this case. Someone thinking only with their emotions in the moment and not thinking at all before they speak. Either that or they are just lying. Either way.....what I said about coming back and being careful I think is good advise for her.....he has a good idea of what she is likely to do and play on her sympathy and her own emotions right now and use this to his advantage. You called him a "mooch"......I have a couple of other colorful adjectives that I might use but closer to the truth is "someone who takes advantage." Opportunist is another one I might use. Seeing it from that perspective.......I think she needs to be careful in all respects and not react from her own emotions which will be a difficult thing to do right now.....none the less.....it is what she should do for her own sake as I warned.
J
seed money
Submitted by sickandtired on
He has 2 nieces...remember I told you how he verbally abused them when their mother died? I know they have forgiven him, and he said in his email something about staying with one of them for a while. Both of them have nice homes, nice jobs, and nice husbands who work, so good luck to them trying to help him. He has a partially constructed house on 2 acres he owns and was building when i met him 10 years ago, and he quit working on it then, and I gave him $5,000 around 2 years ago to "rebuild" the roof rafters, because they were rotting and falling down from neglect, and he was able to finally put a proper roof with shingles on it so the rain can't ruin the wood any more, but there is no wiring or walls or doors or plumbing, so it is not livable. He has an old "Breaking Bad" looking travel trailer that he lived in when I met him, so he can just dust that off and crash there I guess...after all of this bad behavior on his part..I really don't care. I guess with the doc t thing and the nasty email last night, all of my doubts about not doing the right thing are gone, it's no longer a gray area where It was just a big misunderstanding...it is black and white to me now and it is OVER OVER OVER.
Will these people financially support him....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Will these nieces financially support him while he's getting certified and then getting his first job and paycheck?
Will they pay for his new certification class and the whatever else is needed?
Is he still on your car insurance? or anything else? is he on your cell phone plan?
I am very curious as to how he knew that you were posting on this site. Does he have access to your email? You should change all your passwords because i suspect that he has hacked into your accounts. I doubt he just stumbled upon this site and found your posts. NO. He somehow knew you were posting here. Maybe you're getting email notifications? If so, he opened them and found your posts.
I hope you're ok. I hope he hasn't come back and hurt you in any way..
Yes, Everything You Said
Submitted by kellyj on
is what happened to me with X....too the letter. Emails hacking, access to all my accounts.....all of it. FYI: It doesn't take any special talent or genius to do this. All it takes is enough phone calls to customer service in these respective agencies and a convincing victim story to get at least one rep to make an exception for them. Once that happens.....they can get into your stuff. If you have facebook, twitter or any or all of your accounts linked together including your phone (through google for example)....it only takes one access point to get into the back door to all of them. It's not hard to do if someone is that motivated and willing to spend all of their time doing it.....that is for someone with lots of time on their hands. Ask any kid.....they will tell you. lol
J
I'm OK
Submitted by sickandtired on
I'm OK guys, I just figured since he has hacked my email by somehow getting my password (for about the 5th or 6th time now) I should just stop posting on here, because I don't want him to get any angrier....accusing me of being "disloyal" by seeking out any kind of support system.
He is so paranoid...he shared with me finally in a HUGE long email what caused all of this recent "insecurity" he feels about money....Sometime months ago, I was talking to somebody about travel and seizing the day, enjoying the here and now and not putting off doing things you want to do because you might not have a tomorrow....I said "Sometimes I feel like I have more money than time." Well, he focused on the word "I", wondering why I didn't say WE have more money than time...and got this idea that this one off hand statement REALLY means that I am planning a big undercover plot to keep all of the money for myself, and not include him any more in my reindeer games, and one paranoid idea just piled up on the previous one, and when he said all that stuff, and it irritated me, that somehow confirms in his mind that his perceptions are all true ...when it is a big error in understanding built on NOTHING....this is the story of my life with him...he is so insecure, he LOOKS for insults or scenarios where he is being abandoned, deceived, or ripped off. This whole lawsuit with my brother was not near as nasty as it became until XBF started hitting below the belt with all of the threats, etc....My brother's attorneys only got aggressive and nasty, sending out the process servers to chase us only AFTER XBF's death threats....so in reality XBF escalated a lawsuit into a life-threatening war, and it probably DID contribute to his PTSD, but he brought all of that on himself.
The sad thing is, since I was tied to him, I suffered the consequences even worse than he did, because it was MY family. Do you know he even had the nerve to tell ME how traumatic it was for HIM when MY Mother died....XBF has no concept of other people's feelings if he can only think of himself when my wonderful mother had to lay there in a coma and hear him endlessly bashing her son and making battle plans on how to "get him"...while she lay there helpless, and I could not get him to leave or shut up. That is why i started saying "shut up" to him instead of just "stop saying those awful things"....I was trying to use strong enough words to maybe get through to his impossibly thick skull, that what he was saying was harmful, cruel and totally inappropriate.........and yes, I am VERY angry that he did that to my mother when she was in a coma, disregarding my pleas to take it outside, and not say any of that sort of hate filled garbage in her presence...did he LEARN anything from this? NOOOOOOO....he did the same thing to his nieces when they were at their mother's death bed.
So anyway, I took the email notification of comments off very early in my postings, but he must have seen one of the earlier emails and then he has been eavesdropping on me ever since, because he wrote a nasty email accusing me of spreading half-truths to a bunch of strangers. He even is so micro-managing on HIS point of view that he went through point by point, and tried to explain how every one of my "complaints" about him (not just a list of symptoms, as I have said from day 1) are actually because of me, either my hormones, my being "rich" now and losing my empathy for the less fortunate or whatever other reason he can think of that makes everything totally MY FAULT......so it is just fueling his fire when I write on here...It is over with him from my point of view....probably not from his perspective... :(
Persecution Delusions I Think
Submitted by kellyj on
As my T explained to me....madam X WAS delusional...as he put it. Before I forget to say it, I'm glad you are Okay:) That paranoia is a compulsive thing and it won't stop. Even if it's not malevolent like madam X (the dark triad).....it's never ending in his mind (that tape and feeling persecuted). I saw this with a co-worker and to this day....he can't and will not stop or see it. Everyone is out to get you and the exposure thing really sets them off. Any time they feel vulnerable or insecure....that paranoia starts running rampant. Guess what? He was exposed. That's what all that point by point defending is all about. It's not for your benefit at all.....it all about the compulsions to expel those feelings.
I'm really interested in this for my own sake too.....it helps explain so many things I have seen in my past with different people where I was really scratching my head and worse.....this thing was coming back and biting me with no explanation for it? When I see this with your BF...it only confirms what I saw too. It helps put it to rest once and for all.
To a much much lessor extent......I have seen bits and pieces of this in my wife which scared the hell out of me there for a while....but she is self aware enough that given some time....she see's it in herself enough to realize that it weird behavior even for her. I put myself in that category in my past myself so I recognize it for what it is. It's all on a scale and we all live on there somewhere right?
But going back to my co-worker....he really is delusional and lives in his head like this and it caused all kinds of problems for everyone after a while. When I say delusional.....I mean they see things that don't exist and only they can see them. That's when it gets scary! He was fired almost a year ago from our employer for not being able to provide the level of service he required. This was the PC correct thing to say but it was a lot more than that even though that part was true. Before that happened he literally was speaking out loud his thoughts saying " I don't know what's right or wrong anymore (dyphoria). I don't know what to do?" I almost expected him to say "where am I" but it never got to that point. Sorry....he caused me a lot of grief (a little venting there). But I stayed neutral and still tried to help him as I should have in my job description but nothing more. He accused me of throwing him under the bus but here's the thing.....the first week he started there....he told me that the last place he worked his foreman through him under the bus....and little by little, all the stories he had told me were ones where he got fired from nearly every job he worked and they ALL through him under the bus! lol He walked in from day one expecting and fearing me throwing him under the bus and with no help from me or me actually doing anything to "throw him under the bus"......I somehow did it anyway despite my efforts not to and I became a real enabler after a while to my own detriment. Other co-worker would come to me and say "he thinks you are throwing him under the bus" I got so sick of hearing that phrase it starting making me really mad at that point and stopped being an enabler. Oh my God....I just threw him under the bus!!! lol Now he started going behind my back and sabotaging me and going to my employer and accusing me of doing things I wasn't doing. He was actively trying to get me fired and finally another co-worker who witnessed him doing this came to me and told me not to trust him. I WAS FURIOUS!! My T even warned me about this long before when I told him I was having trouble dealing with him. He nailed that one.....what a prediction. I held my mud and calmed down and didn't say a word and just worked as hard as I could but made sure I closed off all his means to sabotage me any more. This only ramped him up even more but he had no more resources to draw from. He was in a panic state almost (the dyphoria again). Now this started bleeding over onto other people employed there and pretty soon....everyone was out to get him and they were all telling him to leave them alone. That's when he was fired and he started spinning out of control. But before this happened and he was starting to lose it....he finally admitted me a few months before that "I feel like you are throwing me under the bus." That's when I yelled at him and insisted that this needs to stop...RIGHT NOW! It didn't help him or stop his paranoia but the fact that I told him and the rest of the crew that I was not and have not been "throwing him under the bus" even after he tried to get me fired (which they all saw anyway) he had no where else to go with his delusions...now came the dysphoria and it was so plain to see him in this state it was kind of eerie.
I would not call this guy a friend after what he did and I had no intention of maintaining any kind of friendship or ever talking to him again after he was fired.
So....last week.....I working at my house and look up and see him in my driveway and without waving or waiting to see if I was in the middle of something....he barges right into my shop as if he was my best friend. Okay? Thinking...what do you want? He made some passing reference to being in the area and just stopping by....but then proceeded to give a point by point explanation of how he was a great guy and how well he was doing at his new job making even MORE than he did where we worked and how they love him and he gets to do all the things that he couldn't do before (my job) and how much better off he is. He stated this several times and emphasized this to me very clearly. Thinking to myself...that's nice...why are you here?
So in an effort to be at least polite since I was right in the middle of doing something that he didn't seem to care about or even be aware of..(he stood right on top of some wet concrete I had just poured and was completely oblivious to the fact the ground he was standing on was sinking?? LOL and when I told him that he didn't say he was sorry or ask was it going to be ruined? what an idiot! ) I stopped and wiped my hands to give him my attention for a minute and chat with him at least. but he didn't want to chat and said he needed to go. Okay? again....why are you here? thinking to myself.
He came there to tell me how well he was doing and that he was making even more money than he was before he was fired and that they think he is great and he gets to more things than before. That was all he said to me and then said he had to go??? It felt very much like someone trying to throw this in your face which might make sense if that someone had thrown them under the bus. Take my word for it.....he did a better job of throwing himself under the bus than myself or anyone else could ever do. Even if I wanted to or was so inclined....it wasn't necessary! lol
That's how completely disconnected a person like this can be. He was compelled to ge that off his chest to me and make a special trip across town just to do after he couldn't stand it any longer after almost a year of building up inside him (as if I cared and was giving him any thought what so ever as if the world revolved around his insecurity and feelings of persecution...not so much lol ) and feigned a casual stop by to drop in and see an old friend who was right in the middle of working out of the blue and really didn't have time to stop and chat. How delusional and fucked up is that?
That's what I am talking about coming back later too. You can't get rid of them and they will keep haunting you. Yes.....very paranoid indeed.
I think this is a form of vulnerable Narcissism....highly insecure but not so meek and timid. You will be on the losing end no matter what you do.
Also.....madam X had access to my computer and installed a key stroke program on it which are used by businesses to track their employees where you can go back in and see every stroke that was made on your computer. This isn't hacking since they install it and have remote access to it. You can also by these for phones and track your where abouts from another phone. They are available anywhere and invisible to the user. I had a PC guy dig into my computer and found it and removed it which can be done. You might also check this since it is a standard practice for someone who is paranoid to monitor you with spy cams and high tech recording devices. How do I know.....madam X and my former co-worker both had this equipment and said they had needed it for something else at the time. A friend of mine also caught his wife tracking his where abouts with here phone because she was cheating and was watching his movements so she wouldn't get caught. This works the other way too of course.
The only thing you can do is treat this like an identity theft and go through everything to make sure your close all the doors and make sure there are no other ways in.
It won't stop unless you do this unfortunately. As you have already seen him do......they cannot let go of anything. I can't tell you how frustrating and violated this makes you feel to go through everything like this and then find it but it is something you need to do just to be sure. In my case.....madam x left no stone unturned and I finally found it all. What a pain in the ass!!
Paranoid? Oh yeah!
J
I'm Now Curious...
Submitted by kellyj on
about something that kind of makes sense now but didn't seem to fit at first with the story of my co-worker. He was a hypochondriac (not officially but that's the way he appeared so I'm using that definition). I don't know if you mentioned any other sensitivities like this but....what you could not overlook with this fellow was his fear of germs, chemicals or anything that might affect him to the point and having some strange behaviors associated with this. Once he got really upset about a cyanide spill in the shop where we worked which is normal for the environment. I've worked in other similar situations and with other employees doing the same kind of work and we all are careful when working with cyanide but to the point that you clean it up thoroughly and then move on. He refused to work with it which really inhibited his ability to do the job. In this case....there really is no other alternative to do the job correctly but he insisted on doing it his own way which took 3 times longer and never turned out as well. The first time I pulled out the bottle he had a look of horror in his eyes....I'm not exaggerating either. When there was the spill....he went on and on about it for weeks and even said he felt ill for 2 days afterwards. I've been working with it for years (as have all others that I have worked with) and have never felt ill or had any ill effect. He also was afraid of the acids we used and insisted that if the acids sat too long they would turn into nitro- glycerin and explode. I had never heard this so I looked it up. I found only one reference to this anywhere but it was a very specific kind of situation and there had to be a number of things involved for this to happen. Okay.....it was founded in this extreme case which did not apply to us but....he insisted that it would happen and was afraid of it too.
Later in the week of the spill, I finally said to him that he needed to get over it and it didn't make me sick or ill and it must be all in his head. His response to this was that " I don't want to get cancer?" This was an unusual response since cancer is not the fear from cyanide poisoning? FYI: it's mixing the cyanide with acid that makes the lethal gas that kills you....unless you mix the two, it can still make you ill to breath but it won't kill you unless you swallow it.
Another time when some acid spilled (another less frequent but occasional hazard that happens) the room smelled like chlorine bleach for a while. He was at lunch and I had the spill cleaned and taken care of for at least a 1/2 hr before he returned. I was the one who cleaned it and was in the room with the full brunt of the odor and didn't notice any ill effects since there is a full ventilation system running all the time. When he came back from lunch.....he immediately smelled it and asked what happened. I told him and within a few minutes....started complaining about his head and feeling sick. He ended up going home for the day. Two days later....he was still complaining about his head saying he thought it was from the acid. As I said.....I didn't feel anything different even minutes after I was done cleaning it and breathing any trace amounts of fumes. I've never seen this before in anyone and it appeared to be all in his head?
He also developed a heart condition and was on a number of medications for it. One day he became all upset that one of the medications stated it was for "anxiety disorder" on the label. He immediately called his doctors office and chewed them out for making this kind of error saying that if someone saw that....it might effect his ability to get a job. I'm no Doctor....but the first thing that crossed my mind was....mmmmmm??? Thinking this might not have been a mistake or else the Doctor would have given him something else? I didn't say anything since there was no point but....he was obsessed with health concerns and personal safety and had a medicine cabinet full of drugs on his work desk and sanitizers stationed all over the place.
Does any of this behavior sound familiar to you? Just curious now to see if there is a connection since the other things you said sounded the same as well?
J
Yes it sure does...
Submitted by sickandtired on
Yep, XBF has a lot of neurotic and hypersensitive concerns about his body...that's what I was trying to illustrate when I mentioned pickiness for food and sensitivity to sounds smells and light.
He has always complained about ulcers,and takes prilosec like candy. he also takes valium and codeine as he needs it, that he bought off the internet, and i have heard they can cause stomach distress maybe ulcers, but he does not want to make that connection. Recently he said he had a splinter in his foot that he thinks has been there a long time, but only now is bothering him. He decided to take care of it with his dremel tool (i know you are chuckling right now) and just grind it out over time, so for weeks he would give me a play by play on how the splinter dig is going, and I would say, go to a doctor before you get yourself infected. He dug so deep that he was starting to limp. I asked him what was wrong, and he said his foot hurt, and I said well quit digging a hole into it...go to a fucking doctor!!!! Then he said something that just floored me...now he knows how my broken leg must have felt......OMG OMG OMG!!!!
His appearance has always caused him anxiety, even though many women have told me they think he is quite attractive, especially since I got him those lovely new caps for all his front teeth (including a lot of fillings, all white, and at least 3 root canals that he needed desperately). He has described himself to me as an awkward kid, smaller than all the rest, so he got bullied in school. Apparently he had acne very severely and was shy about it, and felt like it was a curse from God to him personally. He said he started losing his hair around 30 while still battling severe acne..this always seemed like an exaggeration to me because he has very smooth, clear skin now, and he actually looks a lot younger than 58...more like 40 or late 30's if he takes that tiny bit of gray out of his hair. he started getting hair transplant surgeries back in his 30's paid for by his parents in return for work he did on their properties (they own rental properties just like me). He is still very insecure about his hair because he wanted more transplants, but his mother refused, saying he looked good enough.
Recently he said I will probably outlive him, because he expects to die of cancer because of all the stress I am putting him through.............blah........ blah ............blah................. I guess that's when I should have said "So all of this bitching and complaining you are doing about my Last Will and Testament is just a moot point then..."
So, do you expect him to leave you alone from now on?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Has he moved to OK or is he still staying at your other property.
Will you be able to change the locks on that property once he leaves? Is he leaving with a car that you own?
It sounds like he has some expensive expenses, ordering meds off the internet can be very expensive. Make sure that he can no longer charge those to the credit card numbers that he's likely stored on those online accts and any other online accts.
you probably need to have all of your CC numbers changed and your bank routing numbers. Likely he has copies or has those numbers stored on various online accounts, including Amazon.
cc
Submitted by sickandtired on
I put his name sharing a truck, but I can live without it. I'm doing all the other things you mentioned today. I just have to find some peace in the world. Thanks for all of your support, and I wish you happiness in your life. I might not do any more postings for a while, because I know he is reading them.
I understand....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
You may not want to post much about him because you know that he's reading, but you can either continue just reading here for awhile or just posting about things that have to mostly only with you and your personal struggles (health, pets, pains, etc).
If your name is shared on his truck, you really need to get YOUR name off of it so you're not liable for any accidents or anything else.
I remember when my H got into a MINOR accident and the "injured" person hired an attorney who did an "asset check" on us. Thankfully, this was when we were in our early 30s when our only assets were our home and our 401ks, so there wasn't anything that they could easily sue for.
Now we have a huge liability umbrella policy.
In your case, you need to get your name off that truck.
Not To Go On and On...
Submitted by kellyj on
about my co-worker but something really did strike me when I was retelling this story. I think this might be interesting and I have a confession to make along with it.
As I said...I don't spend a lot of time thinking about this guy and pretty much forgot about him once he was gone. whew!
What came back to me when I said he was and idiot....I felt a little pang or guilt for being so judgmental. It happens....what can I say? But more to it.....I realized why I felt so strongly about this whole ordeal. (I call myself and idiot all the time for what it's worth....just say'in lol ) I remembered how angry and hurt I felt from his betrayal but further.....his actions were so confusing and he was an enigma to me? He was extreme in his political views and he was very religious.....evangelical/charismatic follower (he said he spoke in tongues and had healing powers by placing his hands on people heads and said a recently exorcized demon came to visit him one night and tried to take him over). He thought of himself the same as a disciple and and was very arrogant and hauty and you couldn't tell him anything without him resisting you or putting you down. He also told me once that he could see himself going to blow up abortion clinics and said if Obama was elected (the first time) that he was going to move out of the country. (which of course he didn't).
But here's the thing.....he came and talked himself up a lot and told me all of these stories from his past. Later....he would retell them but the facts and even the poeple in them began to change or become different. And as time went on....his stories of himself did not line up either which is where all the trouble started. And he would admit all kinds of things or say things in the moment that were not so Christian like or kind and when I called him on it....he would say things like "oh...sometimes I have to watch what I say....I didn't really mean that." No....yes he did because that's exactly what he would do later. I thought he was a pompous hypocrite and a liar and this really upset me especially when I had to clean up his mistakes and get called out by my employer for losing time and making less money for him. He was also not very talented and rather clumsy for someone in our profession and made lots of mistakes yet he presented himself as a master know it all of all things in our craft. This did not work very well for him when it came time to prove it which he could not.
Does any of this sound familiar? I was cleaning up his messes. Taking the heat for his mistakes and him getting angry with me and accusing me of false accusations that I was doing on top of it? Plus....his hauty superior attitude and tone to the point of disrespect. He also would slip and give me orders or yell at me for doing something he didn't like because he was so extremely sensitive to be criticized to the point of exhaustion from not being able to tell him anything without it becoming a big deal. That's when I start becoming and enabler by default just so I didn't have to deal with him anymore. I was his superior in this case and this all was not sitting well with me after a while.
I finally one day snapped at him for the first time but said "how many times have I ever yelled or got angry with you like you just did?" The answer was none. He said" oh....I guess I see what you mean.....can we work this out?"
Work what out you big weirdo?....all I want from you is the basic respect and for you not to yell and get angry when something doesn't go your way. lol
Anyway....if you haven't picked up on the fact that everything I just described sounds remarkably like the majority of the posts on this forum complaining about their husbands. I think I have just gained a whole 'nuther level of respect for everyone here and for myself in regard to what is must be like for the spouses with us men with ADHD. I am feeling somewhat humbled right now as I right this even though I have been one to complain or resist the things that I have read and already understand why that is. What occurred to me however...is just how exasperating this experience was to be with someone who was so far gone in denial and was so self righteous about it that everything he did was a fight and it always caused some kind of problem for everyone else but especially me!
Once again....I take a bow to everyone who is going through this themselves right now.
FYI: scalpels work great for splinters also. I use real ones in the work I do and I keep them around for first aid purposes. They do the trick. WTF is up with using a dremmel tool? This is the kind of thing that my co-worker would do as well. Use the wrong tool for the wrong purpose and it always came out wrong?
So here's the end of this sad tale and what I think happened with my co-worker. He was born with big ears and he was teased so much when he a kid that he had them surgically pinned and made smaller. It didn't help that much and they still stuck out. He said they use to call him "sail plane" when he was teased. He also told me that his brother and him use to play with mercury as kids and it ended up making his brother sterile. This was a lie. Without going into all the reasons I know this....it was him who is sterile and he just uses other people to tell these stories about himself. That's the part where I started to here the same stories but with different characters and everything else he said all added up to that it was him he was really talking about but yet....he actually believed his own stories and would say.."I'm a Christian....I do not lie." Not so much.
This was a severe case of denial plus some kind of anxiety issue (OCD, PTSD) tagged along with being a vulnerable Narc and all the trimmings. It may not be ADHD but my experience with him doesn't sound much different and how it affected me so much. I think if I didn't before......I really do understand how difficult it is to have to be with someone like this. I was trapped for 8 years in a smalll enclose space with no where to go and it took it's toll on me. whew!
That's my confession and it's a humbling experience for me. I think I'm going to go make my wife and nice meal tonight! lol
J
Glad to hear that you're ok....was worried!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I was worried that either something had happened or you felt threatened that you couldn't post anymore. If you do feel threatened at any point, please seek a restraining order.
It is interesting that he was insulted of your use of the word "I" in regards to money and time. It is YOUR money. It isn't shared money. It isn't money that you both worked hard and earned and saved. It is YOUR money. If his family had left him a lot of money and assets, he would rightfully think that they were his. ( he may not agree to that now, but that's easy for him to claim....he has no inheritance.)
maybe
Submitted by sickandtired on
his parents are worth a lot of money, so maybe he will get an inheritance.
oh good. I hope he does.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I hope he does get an inheritance.