I fell in love with my husband nearly 10 years ago, in large part, due to his of his earnestness, sweetness, and frankly, his willingness to make a commitment to me long-term.
I researched ADD on my own and sought joint counseling early on. Later, I sought individual counseling as I tried very hard to understand our unique dynamics and gain skills to better aid both of us.
It's been nearly a decade, and I must admit, that this is not at all what I signed up for!!
I've come to a crossroads as I've had an unexpectedly serious health diagnosis, coupled with basic mid-life issues, calling this difficult relationship into question.
My sincere question is: At what point can it EVER be about the non-ADD partner?!
I find myself having absolutely no patience lately, becoming disgusted at every turn, crying every week, and basically dreaming about a life FREE of this delay stress.
As stated a few weeks ago, I feel that my partner, would suck the life out of me before realizing that he has done so.
He loves me, but is so hyper-focused on his own needs, no matter the therapy/intervention (and trust me, we've tried..) , is unable to rise to the ocassion.
I am beside myself...
I really understand you
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Troy127,
I can respond to your questions based on how it worked for me in my own life.
You stated: My sincere question is: At what point can it EVER be about the non-ADD partner?!
For a really long period of time, in my own thought processes, I had that same question. In 20/20 hindsight, I see I had wanted my spouse to be different and realize HE HAD to balance everything. If LIZ gave something, it was up to him to learn he had to give something. It turned into an insane way of communicating. I would get to the point of wondering why is everything about HIM? I allowed myself to feel guilty and and then vehemently demanded - and angrily stated - "I am so tired of everything turning into "Poor (spouse's name)". I got bitter. Very bitter.
Poor communication patterns are very hard to break. Even when I was fully armed with the the exact description of the pattern I wanted to break - it did not happen.
I would tell my spouse how I expected him to respond . . . . . and of course it did not happen.
I just found this piece of information today:
Co-dependents tend to put their own emotional needs last and always serve others first, but that’s not healthy for a long-term relationship. If you find yourself neglecting your boundaries or emotional needs, you may want to take a step back and assess whether you’ve fallen into a co-dependent pattern that may be holding both you and your partner from a fuller, happier life.
I have to make stuff about LIZ. I have to be assertive and hold fast to what I need and want. Then, my spouse is free to decide if he wants to participate- - -or not.
I do not know how we got to the odd place of communication we got - - it was not good, nor healthy, nor life -enriching - but it worked somehow- - - - -
Now I know better, I am doing better. I do not enjoy feeling ignored. I do not enjoy someone insisting I must change my way of thinking/feeling/being because they know better. Or I am thinking wrong. Or there is something wrong with me.
My focus had been in the wrong place for a very long time. I was striving to be the wife of a happy husband. That put my spouse's emotional needs - always - in front of mine. I was striving to be the best Christian wife I could. That put pleasing my church leaders in front of my emotional needs. I was striving to keep my marriage together . That was putting some ideal of what other's told me in front of my own emotional needs.
I strive now towards balance. There has GOT to be Liz. And there has got to be my spouse. THEN, there can be a marriage.
I am no longer willing to have peace at all costs, or prove to the world what a wonderful marriage I have. Or prove to my spouse how deserving I am of his choice to be my spouse.
Balance. Balance. Balance.
So, to answer the question, it can be about the non-ADHD spouse as soon as you learn to take the steps to make it that way.
Very truly,
Liz
Little dog, Big dog.
Submitted by jennalemone on
We have a chihuahua living with us. He is a VERY good dog. Never makes a mess. Doesn't beg for attention. He "holds his need to go out" like someone who doesn't want to cause anyone else any effort on his part. He doesn't beg or howl. His old toys are like new. He NEVER bites. His tiny claws are softer than a kitten's. You would think he would be appreciated and cared for and doted on. He is lovable.
I have had big oafish loveable dogs in the past. Their hair "especially the collie's" made extra cleaning for me. Their large messy food bowls and runs through mud made extra work and expense for me. Their barking at birds and squirrels was annoying. When they were afraid of fireworks or guns, they made a big drama of shaking under the beds. Taking them in the car was a big ordeal and more cleaning up.
Do I love and care for the dog who was less work and easier more? No. In fact I find myself ignoring (and taking for granted) the quiet, unburdensome dog...where the big old loveable larger dog would put his large head in my lap and beg for attention and you couldn't ignore such a large puppyish animal in the room. The extra work was a part of the relationship of the large dog. I would be disgusted with yet another mess but then also loved the participation of the work.
I had been the small accomadating dog for most of our marriage. Trying to make things work out quietly and smoothly behind the scenes. Now after it is mostly over, I reflect and feel I was not loved and cared for. I had not made the dramas/messes/attention-getting motions and noise to attract the care and appreciation for ME. How did I get to be the enabler/accomadater/sacrificer? Was it just my nature? Was it out of necessity of the situation?
We should not have to change ourselves for a relationship to work. But I have had enough phsycology and sociology classes to know that it happens....through conditioning. Many times it is by manipulation from teachers and parents. Sometimes it is by the conditioning from who you are living with. It IS manipulation whether it is conscious or not. If a big oafish messy dog can condition me to do all the cleanup for him, then so can a man. If a oafish dog can condition me to soothe him when there is fireworks, a man can condition me to take care of the messy things that overwhelm him.
I was not taught or modeled how to be beloved. I was not taught or modeled how to get attention for my own needs. I was taught that trying to get attention was SELFISH. I was taught to love others. And sacrificing my self was the greatest form of love. I was sort of taught to ignore my own needs...to not have any needs for my self.
Put into a partnership with someone with ADD predestined me to be a servant.
Getting to this end realizing that the person who I depended on to partner with me, does not notice or appreciate me, is so disappointing that I almost feel a need to write books to young women and girls who were taught to WORK WORK WORK and GIVE GIVE GIVE in the name of love.
I was admonished to not be prideful. I believe that was the wrong word used in those days ie: "Pride cometh before the fall." They should have used the word...arrogance.
There is PRIDE...that is happy thoughts when you think of your self and you take care of yourself. There is DIGNITY...that is the ability to say no to some things to hold on to your belief in your self as opposed to self-hatred. There is EGO....that is a holding on to the reality that you are person alive in the world with needs and wants of your own. Then on a whole other side of this coin is ARROGANCE.....being boastful and feeling entitled to more than others around you.
I am working on tending to dignity, pride and ego.
A powerful post, Jenna. Full
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
A powerful post, Jenna. Full of truthtelling. All my best to you.
As for conditioning, I so, so agree, that it goes on in relationships. The little book Don't Shoot the Dog, for me was a great introduction to the various kinds of positive and negative conditionings, and what each usually produces. I found it a huge eye opener about human to human relations. It contains some funny stories.
Very True
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Thanks :)
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
'I no longer feel like the family slave.'
Me too, Melissa, me too.
Liz
Hi Melissa....
Submitted by c ur self on
I've really struggled with Co-dependency in the past...I guess I was conditioned to it to some degree in my first marriage. When the kids were small and life was busy it took both of us to keep things moving along...My first wife wasn't a strong person (nerve and OCD issues) she worked full time just like me...So it was the right thing to do to serve the needs of our home by helping w/ the meals, cleaning, etc...but she did her part...
So when I married my W I knew she wasn't as concerned about things being picked up or organized...Just the opposite really (hoarding tendencies). So I would do what I had to for survival (at least that's the way I looked at it). But what was happening with my W is the more I did, the more she would leave for me to do. The more she would use me as her slave...Once about a year or so after we married I asked her to meet me half way w/ cleaning etc...So she walked slowly over to where I was standing and said: "That is your gift!, not mine!".....I said GIFT its survival!....I'm laughing:)...Anyway, the past year or so I've done better with this....And the better I discipline myself to not be co-dependent, the more she adapts to not seeking it....I'm a firm believer in healthy produces healthy. Just like bad stuff, produces the bad stuff....
She really wants to be loved and accepted, (we all do) and deserves to be loved and accepted. She tries and has great ideas about many things, but, it is just very hard for her to maintain good habits, ...(effects of add) I'm the opposite and it's easy for me not show empathy, but, I'm working on it!....Her love language is affirmation...I'm trying to make sure she knows I appreciate and notice her efforts when she does clean and pick up behind her self....I was terrible about affirmation in the early years because I thought it just being responsible....Now I see through her eyes' a little and realize it's not natural to her way of thinking to be neat....Unless company's coming of course...LOL...Never knew life could be so much fun!
C
Love the doggie analogy
Submitted by troy127 on
I truly love all creatures. Being neither a dog or cat "person", I truly love ALL animals and appreciate what each species brings to the table!
There are times, however, especially times of stress involving health, that we tend to seek that which is easier and comforting.
I didn't always acknowledge the stress I've been under in keeping it all together and managing affairs, until I became vulnerable---and needed REAL emotional help. Sadly, there wasn't much to be had....
I'm also beginning to think that I'm more co-dependent than I thought!
Thanks so much for the words of encouragement:)
It will never ever be about
Submitted by dvance on
It will never ever be about the non-ADD partner. Ever. I see it with my ADD husband and my 16 year old ADHD son. They are both totally the big noisy dog that commands/demands all the attention and you sit there wondering what hurricane just blew through your life. Lots of people here post trying to spin ADHD as a gift or a wonderful whimsical set of circumstances that present a terrific opportunity for bettering OURSELVES. I just don't see it that way. ADHD is a life sucking, all encompassing, confusing, bizarre thing to live with and around. And nothing about a "regular" person is as interesting. Nothing about the day to day minutia of running a normal life (with or without kids) is as interesting as the drama they stir up all on their own. It's truly exhausting. I have three more years until my youngest goes to college and then I am done. So help me God I will never live under the same roof as anyone ever again. Too many years of too little boundaries.
New Comment to Recent Comments....
Submitted by troy127 on
Hello All!
Thank you so much for your stories!
I truly believe that we ALL do ourselves a disservice by pretending that there is nothing difficult about this journey--and that it is simply about framing issues in an alternative manner:)
The authors of this site had every intention to build bridges and promote understanding/acceptance. I get it and I completely empathize with this earnest attempt.
This is a wonderful notion, but one that realistically cannot be applied to ALL levels/forms of ADD.
The sweethearts who responded so passionately to my post are in pain, and frankly, I'm a weary of being de-facto counseled into exploring ways into which to deal with issues from the ADD spouse's perspective.
My sincere question, from a truly loving/committed partner's view was: Can it EVER be about the non-ADD spouse?
I was recently diagnosed with an illness that is manageable, but progressive. My ADD spouse sweetly responded to the immediate shock by doing nice things in the short-term!
For that, I was extraordinarily appreciative, BUT know that I will require a sustained initiative moving forward.
I'm doubtful, given my experience, that he'll be able to rise to the occasion--regardless of his intent!
All I was saying is: ADD is difficult as it is BUT, when coupled with sever life stressors, it can become a non-negotiable in a marriage.
I believe that this issue be addressed in ways that do not curry-favor to the ADD spouse.
Looking at things as they are
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
troy127 ,
There are so many things that I expected. . .and thus was disappointed.
I believe a light bulb of understanding came on for me when I read this quote attributed to Einstein: “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
If I insist I must receive things from my spouse. things that he just does not have to give, I will be sorely disappointed.
Just this morning I read the blog entry by Melissa Orlov, Can ADHD Cause Narcissism? I must say, it is very enlightening.
In just the last few weeks, something in all this searching and struggling has turned a corner. I came to the realization that I was trying to fit my relationship into the patterns described here on the site. Many of them are not how my relationship works - at all.
Getting past the disappointment that what I THOUGHT my marriage would be - that was hard.
Speaking from my very own female perspective, women are often upset at magazines like Playboy. Why? Because it portraits women in an impossible standard. Men want to believe that women are like the photographs in that magazine - all the time. And they are coy sexual beings all the time. We are not. We sleep. We wake up with bad breath. We pass gas. We poop. We get tired. We get overwhelmed with being a Mommy. We get tired of shaving our legs, and plucking our eyebrows, et., etc., Those women in the photographs are nice to look at, but are not "real." .
2nd view, speaking from my very own female perspective, men are often upset at romance novels and romantic movie and Tv shows. Why? Because it portraits men in an impossible standard. Women want to believe that men are like the men in those romantic novels and romance movies and TV shows - all the time. And are sensitive to women all the time. They are not. They sleep. They wake up with bad breath. They pass gas. They poop. They get tired. They get overwhelmed with being a Daddy. They get tired of being expected to buy perfect gifts and remember every special day, et., etc., Those men are nice to dream about, but they are not "real."
So what Liz knows to be true - what her reality is:
She does not drink - never did. She never used drugs. She likes to wear jeans and t-shirts. She drinks diet coke with splenda and coffee - rich robust with plain ol' creamer. She would rather be barefoot than wear shoes. She is clumsy in high heels. She has sensitive skin, and if her clothes are not mostly cotton - they itch like crazy, and with her skin sensitivity, she cannot wear make-up. She likes to do jigsaw puzzles, Dot-to-dot books, Sudoku puzzles, scrapbooking, make quilts, babysit her nieces and nephews, have tea parties, watch Disney Movies, play scrabble, work in her flower beds. I loved to play teacher, house, and 'office lady' when I was little. Those are still my passions - oh, and I was inspired to be a writer by Earl Hamner, through the character John Boy Walton. True story.
I do not want my spouse to change all those very dear parts of me.
And I have become well aware that I have allowed some of his behavior which I find unkind - to continue by always arguing about it. No more. I say it is poor for me, and my spouse is free to disagree. However, when it comes to making our relationship better, it will be up to him to want to change behaviors that are not too pleasant. Or he may not. That is up to him.
I really have raised the standards for myself.
So, will a relationship with my spouse get better. It can. I cannot force it. This is copied from Melissa's blog:
The accusations of lack of empathy often come after some period of relationships disintegration...where an ADHD partner may have retreated from his or her partner to avoid conflict or hardened their attitude in response to feeling repeatedly pushed or complained about.
If this describes your own situation, then the way to deal with it is to acknowledge that this inward-focus is a problem/tendency you have, and that your partner's complaints about your being self-centered are based in her (his?) experience of being with you...the complaints are both logical and related to your ADHD, even if the label chosen is incorrect. Once you acknowledge that your partner's experience is poor and stop worrying about the label, then you can address the symptomatic behaviors that create that experience - in this case, being so often inwardly-focused. There are many ways to do this:
better physiological treatment that calms your brain and makes it less important to be looking inward (meds, exercise, fish oil, sleep and meditation or mindfulness are your best bets here)
creating scheduled times to be with your partner and focused on your partner ('attend time' - see my second book, The Couple's Guide to Thriving with ADHD for more on this)
creating the habit of clearing away distractions when your partner tries to communicate particularly important information to you. One tactic for this might be creating a verbal cue together...if it's really important, she can say "I have something important I wish to share, and I would love your full attention to it" or some such...that could be the cue to move away from distractions such as the computer, sit together, and look her in the eye)
improved organizational skills - possibly using a coach to help with this. Though organization isn't directly tied to narcissism, it is often tied to non-ADHD partners feeling their ADHD partners are selfish...i.e. they only think about themselves rather than contribute to taking care of responsibilities. Often lack of follow through for those with ADHD is more related to poor symptom management around organizational skills rather than self-centeredness.
Plus, Liz will have to accept and choose if these changes will be enough for her. It will not be about if my spouse is good enough - it will be about "Can our relationship flourish with changes?"
I think I rambled a bit in this post, but I hope my thoughts come thorugh.
Very Truly,
Liz
Bite size
Submitted by ADH9er on
"I don't want my spouse to change those dear parts of me."
Can you share broad detail of what this one sentence looks like? I want to clearly see what I must change in order for the story to go back to "Tom doesn't want the attributes of Liz ,that he fell in love with 33 years ago, to change."
Bite size
Submitted by ADH9er on
"I don't want my spouse to change those dear parts of me."
Can you share broad detail of what this one sentence looks like? I want to clearly see what I must change in order for the story to go back to "Tom doesn't want the attributes of Liz ,that he fell in love with 33 years ago, to change."
Hmmmm. . . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
ADH9er,
Alas, Liz does not have the answer. I can suggest 2 steps.
1. Based on the words of Melissa Orlov in her post that I mentioned above:
The way to deal with it is to acknowledge that this inward-focus is a problem/tendency you have, and that your partner's complaints about your being self-centered are based in her (his?) experience of being with you...the complaints are both logical and related to your ADHD, even if the label chosen is incorrect. Once you acknowledge that your partner's experience is poor and stop worrying about the label, then you can address the symptomatic behaviors that create that experience - in this case, being so often inwardly-focused.
2. The question be re-framed from: "Tom doesn't want the attributes of Liz ,that he fell in love with 33 years ago, to change."
to
"How can I remove the filters through which I I sift Liz?"
Very truly,
Liz
Completely Off Topic Liz :)
Submitted by kellyj on
"How can I remove the filters through which I I sift Liz?"
Whether it was by intention or not....I "canst" refrain from adding what came to my mind when I read this.......
“This above all: to thine own self be true. And it must follow, as the night the day, Liz canst not then be false to any man.”
Please.....I'm not making fun of you or trying to mock you in any way On the contrary....the way you worded that sound exactly like Shakespeare (with only 1 minor edit on my part:) Have you been boning up on your Hamlet or was that just an accident? lol Sorry....I can't help it....these things just pop into my head and I have no idea where they come from! lol
J
Completely On topic
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Please.....I'm not making fun of you or trying to mock you in any way
Well, I disagree.
Liz
Liz Thank You For You're Honesty
Submitted by kellyj on
First...a clean and sincere apology as my failed attempt at (something?) obviously registered in exactly the way I feared it would. (as stated). I am sorry.
This is a good example of where I fail to express what I am really feeling in a way that comes through honestly by adding my own brand of off th wall humor along with really genuinely feeling something REAL and doing it completely wrong....this is what I did.
This was both presumptuous and impetuous and I can further apologize for doing both. I am impetuous quite often and this is just another way of saying impulsive....that I am. Presumptuous however....is something I have much better control of is was more of a choice. The fear that I stated up front should have told me that but I chose to ignore it and went with that any way for reasons entirely my own (hence the presumption). This I have no defense for and can only ask for your forgiveness.
The truth without defense is that I really thought endeared by the beauty of how eloquently that sounded to me....straight up. It reminded me of the Shakespeare quote which I admire for the same reason. If I were to have done this differently ( without the off the wall humor ) it would have come out along those lines from the very beginning since this is really what I was feeling and that would have been much clearer. The reasons I have that are my own were not only unclear but not known to you....that's my answer right there. How could you know? You can't. This was the failure on my part and again I'm sorry for that as well. This was not only failure to communicate my desire to pay you a compliment, it completely backfired and multiple mistakes were made within it on my part. In the hope that I addressed them all and acknowledged them to you accurately.... I can only hope that you take what I said at face value and believe this is accurate and not anything else other than that.
J
In humor, timing is everything
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
And qualifiers, , ,well they speak for themselves.
I accept the apology, you are forgiven, and I believe your heartfelt explanation.
Sincerely,
Liz
Thank You Liz Your Are a Gem
Submitted by kellyj on
I often catch myself when it comes to this and which one came first here...the cart or the horse? Impetuous to Presumptions....or the other way around? It's pretty easy for me to see it just as stated. What others see is presumption and possibly not seeing impetuous at all? More likely....NOT. I am expecting you or assuming that you see where this is going so I will say it before I say anything else. Yes of course impetuous is a better sounding word than impulsive and we already know the reasons for that. Timing is everything in humor...but so is knowing you're audience. Presuming I know my audience in this case was a foolish assertion at best....which is another way of saying presumptuous which is also accurate without saying it in those words. This is a source of embarrassment that I have a much better answer to than in the past......being deliberate.
So were on the same page here....Deliberate as defined:
"a deliberate attempt to provoke conflict"
synonyms:intentional, calculated, conscious, intended, planned, studied, knowing, willful, purposeful, purposive, premeditated, preplanned; More
voluntary, volitional
"a deliberate attempt to provoke him"
antonyms:accidental, unintentional
fully considered; not impulsive.
"a deliberate decision"
done or acting in a careful and unhurried way.
"a careful and deliberate worker"
synonyms:careful, cautious; More
measured, regular, even, steady
"small, deliberate steps"
methodical, systematic, careful, painstaking, meticulous, thorough
"a deliberate worker"
antonyms:hasty, careless
verb
verb: deliberate; 3rd person present: deliberates; past tense: deliberated; past participle: deliberated; gerund or present participle: deliberating
diˈlibəˌrāt/
1.
engage in long and careful consideration.
"she deliberated over the menu"
consider (a question) carefully.
"jurors deliberated the fate of those charged"
synonyms:think about/over, ponder, consider, contemplate, reflect on, muse on, meditate on, ruminate on, mull over, give thought to, brood over, dwell on, think on
"she deliberated on his words"
Without having to make any further connection here to the word "impulsive".......being "deliberate" sums this up pretty well and is my new favorite "Word" that is easy to remember so I can use it to remind myself of exactly what I need to do. It fits perfectly.
J
A bit more clarfication
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
ADH9er,
This sentence: "I don't want my spouse to change those dear parts of me." is a generalized statement. It would be taken out of the context of the balance of my post if it reaches your understanding as being directed to you as "I do not want ADHD9er to change me."
Try removing the words 'my spouse' and inserting 'anybody' into the sentence to see if it will make more sense?!
Hope that helps,
Liz
Sorta ?
Submitted by ADH9er on
ok, so keeping things in context, could you be more clear, of the specific "poor, unkind,unpleasant behaviors" you are referencing in the following paragraph, that are mine to 'change or not to change'?
An I have become well aware that I have allowed some of his behavior which I find unkind - to continue by always arguing about it. No more. I say it is poor for me, and my spouse is free to disagree. However, when it comes to making our relationship better, it will be up to him to want to change behaviors that are not too pleasant. Or he may not. That is up to him."
When I read multiple paragraphs, referenced to how I am being encouraged to correct undesirable things in myself, that relate to what you need in our relationship,in order us to heal, I need to keep what I am looking at down to one or two items because as Jennalome indicated in my first ever post here, it's too much to comprehend & I become overwhelmed and frustrated.
I appreciate your patience .
Hmmmm...
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
This feels like an awkward situation. I do not want to step into it. I believe you have read all I have posted here..... LOL, it is a lot. My anger has been worked through.
I suggest maybe you could tell me what you see? What are you willing to address?
I do not choose to set the cycle of defensiveness and anger in motion. I do not have any tools to believe there would be a new outcome. You will need to choose what you are willing to do differently, and also have some way to be accountable to whether it is working or not.
I appreciate your participation in the current sessions.
Do you see anything that needs to be different?
Very truly,
Liz
? Question~Question?
Submitted by ADH9er on
Dear Liz,I
if I ask a question that I already knew the answer to ---I would regard that inquiry to be unfounded and covert. I DO NOT know what is in your mind when you say---"An I have become well aware that I have allowed some of his behavior which I find unkind - to continue by always arguing about it.".
No, I do not know what specific behavior that I have exhibited, (in the last year for instance ),that points to me being unkind towards you.
YES THERE ARE A TON OF THINGS I USED TO DO - I used to NOT take MY DIAGNOSIS SERIOUSLY -- I used to NOT TAKE MY MEDS regularly -- I used to DEPEND ON YOU to make my Dr.s APPOINTMENTS & GET MY SCRIPTS -- I used to ALWAYS be LATE to things important to you -- I used to SAY I would do things and NOT do them -- I used to ALWAYS be ANGRY -- I used to leave the DISHES for YOU to do -- I used to LEAVE equipment & STUFF in VIEW of the patio window -- I used to NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE in COUPLES WORK --
Am I there yet ? Probably NOT in my lifetime.
Yes I read ALL your posts here, over & over, and Yes it is a lot. No I am not Laughing out Loud. I am pushing toward the goal, trying to succeed.
I am sorry that my efforts to PIN DOWN clear definitions, brings uneasiness to the conversation.
I 'feel' OVERWHELMED when the ' complete package ' of unresolved issues comes at me all at once.
I SEE that my reactiveness in my responses continues to be a uphill battle.
I SEE that I flounder when I communicate in vocal words, and am more accurate when in writing, Editing & re-editing.
Thank You for appreciating my participation .
with every hope of healing
TOM
Overwhelming
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
ADH9er,
This forum is good and bad- - - - - bad for how it is really impossible to put any facial expressions, vocal pitches, body language, or volume in our posts.
I read your reply over and over last night - - and in the position of having used forums and texting and e-mails for years - understand that typing in capital letters indicates shouting. So, in an essence, I could have just closed the laptop and watched TV. . . . . yet I re-read your words trying to get to the place where I could not feel yelled at. . . . .and that was not happenin'. . . . . . .as this is the exact course of our conversations that I fear. That cycle occurs whether my specific concern is a 'deep on-going issue', or a minor irritant that I want to verbalize so it does not develop into a monster.
What I am searching for in my deepest heart is this - Liz understands that ADH9er is at the position that he wants to address an issue, with open mind, and hears the varying levels of anguish it caused to Liz . . . . . . . . . . then, and only then, can I feel I want to bring up any situation to address it.
My life des not depend on that - - our relationship depends on that.
I choose to walk away from you when you get into an angry place - as I now know and believe it is not my job, nor my responsibility to fix the anger.
Whether it is really anger, or it is frustration or hurt or fear or any other emotion - the appearance of anger scares me. And I choose to not be in a situation where I feel fear.
For me, a real problem happens when I want to address a conflict. What I see is smoke and mirrors and the inability to discuss the issue. I receive a list of all the good stuff, and hearing reasons why 50 good things erase/dissolve/dismiss a disagreement.
My choice is not to make you, nor break you. My choice is to be the best I can be, encourage you to be the best you can be, and find ways to live so we both can share those best parts with each other.
The success of a relationship is a function of the extent to which it meets the needs of two people,
In a pained place of frustration,
Liz
i did not know, I am truly sorry
Submitted by ADH9er on
dear Liz,
i wholeheartedly regret typing in my ignorance of proper keyboard usage.
i regret that this interchange has brought fear to you.
i did not capitalize my words because i was yelling.
my intent is to convey utter frustration in my inability to understand your answers to my sincere quest for clarification .
to my reading your responses seem like riddles that i am expected to know how to solve, and I am unable to.
i hear you say that i want my good things to erase / dissolve / & dismiss a disagreement.
i accept that this is what you feel.
I am stuck in how - without escalating the emotions - i can convey, that, in the deepest regions of my soul, that is not what I want or hope or expect .
i am hoping that someone reading here might guide me to a better way to navigate my way to best articulate this respectively.
again I am sorry.
love tom.
Didn't like the way it sounded so I deleted it
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Things are clearer in the morning
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
ADH9er,
In spite of the fact that I deleted all the words off my late night post, anyone who is following this thread by e-mail will have a copy of what I wrote. I was feeling pulled into the 'crazimaking.' and was stressed and frustrated.
Now, after a good night's sleep, a cup of coffee, and some fresh air, I think I want to address this. And I hope other members of this forum will jump in on this conversation.
I am the woman who agreed to marry you when you asked me in 1982, even though I was not so sure it was a good idea. I clearly remember that day, and my deep internal dialog that had us discussing 'my fear' that once I got over the issues that were destroying my life, those emotional struggles that had me as close to suicide as a person can get, you would not like me. And you, on March 6, 1982 PROMISED me that would not be true. And you encouraged me, and gave me lots of things to work towards.
And I AM that same wonderful woman. Now with a healthy self esteem, and good emotional boundaries, and a joy for life. Liz - sans the ugly anger and sadness and bewilderment of the effects of being raised in an alcoholic home and being stuck in eating disorders.
I have learned a lot. And grown a lot. And love who you are more than I can explain. Yet, what you do, that is a horse of a different color.
Why you refuse to accept/look-at/acknowledge these things that make our relationship difficult - I do not know. These things are NOT condemnations. They are not finger-pointing. They are not about me being right and you being wrong. If you cannot see them, and only fight against their existence, we cannot move on to being able to work on couples issues - because , to me, we do NOT. Issues are disagreements about the yard, and the things that I want and you do not see as important, and negotiating our lives responsibilities so the burden is shared - not only judging them by what you insist is OK, but by what we BOTH see is OK.
You are not on time, by any means. We have no set schedule for a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. Not Friday movie nights, not breakfast, not lunch,not dinner, not bed time, not walk up time, not - anything. It is an unfair comparison to use what you and I do together - because we have hardly done anything together in several years. The last things "I assumed" we would do together was a funeral for the grandfather of our son's girlfriend last December. We had attended her grandmother's funeral the previous year, so I was "assuming" we would be attending this one together. Until you just stated that you were NOT going to attend. We did not have a discussion. I was not asked what I wanted to do. So, I went alone. Assuming got me in trouble with that issue.
Tom, you do say you will do things and do not do them. So, I just choose to have them accomplished in an alternate way. I ask, Remind. And then go on to something else. It is about getting a job done, not about forcing you to do it, or chosing the alternative of having it go undone because you doing it is my only solution. I would love for you to do things. I just learned I cannot force you to do anything - not with anger, yelling, tears, or the cold shoulder.
Yes, you did decide the dishes were going to be your household chore. And you are very consistent in getting them done. So, how can I have any issue with that? It is because there is so much, and not everything can be spelled out in neat little sentences.
I believe you do take your diagnosis seriously - I see you going at it like it something to conquer instead of accepting and living with, and letting others help you, instead of insisting you got it.
My ultimate goal is to be married,to YOU, and each of us bring to the relationship the very best of who we are.
I am sure, after getting to this place of utter frustration, my stance has the appearance of being negative. I believe it is being firm and positive. You gotta want to see. You gotta want to believe I have your best interest at heart. You gotta want to believe.
I am not your greatest critic. I am a person who knows you, sees a big issue, and would love for you to see it too, so we can have a better life together. We are 2 people who live in a very odd atmosphere. No conflict can be discussed, because it touches off your defensive mechanism, which lead to anger. We eat when we want, go to bed when we want, there is not partnership on anything.
I placated and fixed your anger for years. I learned that my doing that, well, it was not a good thing to do. You need to figure out where that anger comes from.
I Love YOU. I very much dislike and can even state that i HATE that you feel condemned by every thing I want to make better.
I wish you could trust me. Trust that I do love you. Trust that I do have your best interest at heart. Trust that together we can accomplish a lot.
I am not expecting you will never again misplace your wallet, or never be late. I am hoping you can get to the place of acknowledging you are late, acknowledging it affects me, and your customers, and anyone else in your life who cares.
I see a man, who is in great emotional pain, and I have fears that you will implode. And that is a big fear. And I probably could manipulate and fix and fluff over and explain. . . .but I will not. I believe you can do this. I encourage you. I cannot get down in the trenches with you. I pray that you will want to want to get out. and be happy. And when you find your joy, then we can go forward. Right now, it is not working. You do a fairly good job of hiding it from most people. Yet, I believe you have isolated yourself more and more and more over these past years. And we who love you, see that.
With love,
Liz
Your not alone in how you feel dvance...
Submitted by c ur self on
When a person is hurting because the person they married isn't capable of being present in their life, even when they are present...It leaves scars, it's damaging...No one on this site would not admit to that, except for the ones in denial...I know many people who have adhd and you would never know it, because they are not victims, they live accountable, and they don't use it as an excuse for pursuing their sinful desires.....
I've spent over two years trying to undo all the damage I've done to my wife, and myself because of my ignorance of add and my Co-dependency....
Now I am willing to be quiet, take care of myself and live!..It's OK to walk away and be the one hand clapping!...The alternative is and was poison!
I can do it and be thankful for my blessings, no matter what she does, or I can be a victim (like I was for so long) because she lives in a such a self-absorbed mind that seems almost incapable of making life ever about me and my needs and concerns...
in my opinion and experience it's never all adhd, It's all the other character issues that spawn because of the heart issues....
I hope you never feel alone, because you're not! And if I have ever offend you with my posts, I apologize because it wasn't intentional...
C
I don't think it can ever be about the nonADHD spouse....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I have often said, if I ever had a serious illness, my H would make it about himself, and would likely become angry at me.
I've been thru this. I had a difficult pregnancy, and H often yelled at me because he was annoyed by it all. I needed help, and that made him more angry....because in his mind, I'm supposed to be the helper. I'm not supposed to ever need help.
the few times I've been badly sick (bad flu, etc), H has been awful. He may be ok for the first couple of hours, but things quickly devolve into annoyance/anger that he's being bothered by it all.
In many cases, they're
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
In many cases, they're Resource Hogs!
Yes, the household revolves around them. They "use" or demand a majority of the household's resources....be it money, time, food, luxuries, etc.
Mostly this is due to their self-centered-ness. This is also why they often don't buy gifts for others, except maybe when a relationship is new and they're still trying to impress.
Hi OWW...Self-centeredness??
Submitted by c ur self on
(Yes, the household revolves around them. They "use" or demand a majority of the household's resources....be it money, time, food, luxuries, etc. Mostly this is due to their self-centered-ness. )
I don't know the reason for this, I've wondered about it often....My wife shows very little conviction to giving time, effort or $ to the responsibilities of our home...But she will eat up snacks, left overs, (that I cooked) w/ little or no thought of sharing...We have direct TV and she keeps all these programs being recorded about the things she is interested in. It appears like selfishness, I've pointed it out to her and she just gets defensive in conversation, but, then I see her later trying to be aware of it to some degree....I really don't know if she is just that selfish or if it's ease of addiction or it's her mind isn't capable of thinking about the needs of others....I want judge it, but, it's a reality non the less....The more we keep our lives separate (finances, etc..) the more I don't have to deal with this fact...
She told me once when we were dating she had trouble with being selfish, (so I know she interprets it that way herself) and she did something the other day that kind of blew my mind in front of others, (which she usually hides those kind of actions) which left me shaking my head in disbelief, well maybe not disbelief, but just more amazement....It's almost like a uncontrollable spirit takes her over at times. Right after she has one of these actions, she at times will make a sideways comment like...."I can't believe I just did that or said that"....Most of the time she goes into denial, and acts like it didn't happen. And if I point it out, she explodes and hollers' out I'm Sorry!!! Please!!! never mention it again...It's like if I try to get her to face the realities of her actions, I'm terrible for that, I know that part of it is Denial....Anyway I know what you're saying and experiencing....
C
Troy127
Submitted by c ur self on
(He loves me, but is so hyper-focused on his own needs, no matter the therapy/intervention (and trust me, we've tried..) , is unable to rise to the occasion.
I am beside myself...)
I've read this type post often (wrote plenty of my own very similar) and I live with the same thoughts and realities...I just want to tell you I understand your feelings, and your fears about your health issues...Since I retired from my job 3 years ago, I've worked hard on my overall health and conditioning...I'm sure somewhere down inside a little of the motivation my come from the same concerns you're stating....The reality of clinical levels of adhd isn't going to change, if I become disabled and need it to....
I just wanted to say I understand and can have empathy with your concern and feelings....
C
Thanks and great posts!
Submitted by troy127 on
Hello All!
I thoroughly read each post. Thank you so much for the interest and care in responding!
I understand well that it's all in the way we choose to view events which greatly determines how we feel about them! (Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy 101:)
In the end, it's up to the non-ADD spouse AND the ADD spouse to appreciate what EACH brings to the table and to allow for change, growth, and opportunity for one another!
This is ridiculously easier said than done!!
Not surprisingly, and as a cruel joke on Destiny's part, ADD'ers are often drawn to those with OCD-like tendencies. We are anal , after all, and will see to it that the drudgery of daily life gets done! Yay us...
What makes this especially challenging, is that OCD-types crave order, structure, etc.---the very things that ADD'ers rally against! (Intended or not.)
My ADD spouse loves the structure, order, etc. that my daily efforts provide. Thing is: Sometimes, I over-do it as a REACTION to his ADD!
I never enjoyed hyper-focusing and micro-managing nearly as much as my husband was convinced I did.
Now, I absolutely cannot stand it! I have changed along with my circumstances.
As stated earlier, I was recently diagnosed with a manageable , but serious health issue, and would prefer STRONGLY not to deal with the small stuff...
Some would say, "Then just don't!"
I get it. BUT, during times of stress, we OCD-types crave structure more than ever as this is what provides us (For once, can it be about us?) with a sense of calm..
I have the unusual luxury to be going away for a few days next week on my own, just to think.
This time will be spent evaluating whether I"ll choose to continue with this marriage.
I absolutely love my husband and desire nothing but wonderful things for him. I do NOT believe that he is lazy, stupid (FAR from the contrary), etc.
What I do know, is that I have serious personal issues with which to deal, he has not been able to provide the comfort I require under lesser circumstances, and my patience, has unfortunately run out.
Sorry to be a downer.....
Reality Is What It Is
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
troy127,
I do not see you as a downer.
This stuff is hard. This stuff is maddening. This stuff can break a person.
I absolutely love my husband and desire nothing but wonderful things for him. I do NOT believe that he is lazy, stupid (FAR from the contrary), etc.
I have said it before and I think it is worth repeating - I am not broken, my spouse is not broken, it is our relationship that is broken.
He is not a narcissist, he is not selfish, it is not my responsibility to label him or diagnosis him - I am not a professional. I can demonstrate the gifts I can add to our marriage and the strengths I can add to a partnership.
Very truly,
Liz
WOW! I just read more and MORE carefully/thoughtfully.....
Submitted by troy127 on
Thank you Tom and Liz!
I take it you are communicating through this forum as 'ADH9er' and 'I'm So Exhausted'---as a couple---which frankly, is awesome.
I feel both of your frustrations profoundly. Many important and heartfelt words were said. What struck me most, however, was when Liz stated that all caps made her feel uncomfortable, ADH9er's response was to not use caps in his response-even when it was grammatically incorrect to do so. To me, and sorry ADH9'er, this comes across as sarcastic.
What happens to the receiving party is that she opts to either defend herself intellectually OR go into the all too common apologetic, "I'm so sorry. I was really tired, I didn't mean it." mode. Neither works well.
Here's why: Defending only continues the ridiculous argument, which seems more based on defending one's pride than an attempt to mutually agree on actual solutions.
The apologetic stance only serves to diminish that partner's self-respect/self-worth. Again....
Plus, it's not based on your couple's truth; rather, an attempt at amelioration due to a good night's sleep and some caffeine. Big deal!
The serious issues have NOT been resolved via a joint commitment to new ACTION. Thus, they will re-surface--again and again.
It's very clear that you are BOTH highly intelligent: Simply on different wavelengths, with different interests and possibly, priorities. There is NO one to blame. No one is wrong here.
So too, with my husband and I. He, unfortunately, never looked into this forum---even though we were both counseled by Dr. Hallowell for a few sessions, and even though I suggested it multiple times years ago. I have since stopped asking as we have "bigger fish to fry".
From an outsider's, albeit biased, and (hopefully) understanding point of view, I say: It's clear that you love one another but that things have come to a head.
ADH9er, I didn't read in any of your posts how much you love your wife and all that she has meant to you. If you said it, I didn't "get it". She, on the other hand, said MUCH in that regard. Please don't chalk it up to a "guy" thing as that's simply NOT accurate from my experience.
If I didn't get the love note as an outsider, I can't imagine that she would have either.
She needs to really get it.
Please don't take this in a way for which it was not intended. Since you both posted, I simply gave you my reaction.
i think I can, I think I can
Submitted by ADH9er on
I absolutely yearn to communicate, particularly the 'deep&difficult' which most often flits into obscurity after awakening the anger giant. By the time I wrestle my anxiety and all the other galloping emotions into submission, and assembling the gamut of thought into what resembles rational order, ----then, the 'broken record re-reading & re-editing' to be sure i am ' hearing & articulating' the best I am able,----the merger few words I 'hunt&peck' onto the screen capture only a fraction of what I wish I could say. All the while fearing loosing the battle of retaining the same.
Thanks, The Best to you,
ADH9er
Response to ADH9er
Submitted by troy127 on
What do you mean by " I think I can, I think I can"? (I have a good idea.) Still, is it truly relevant to what I posted and not just another attempt to illustrate your cleverness?
You're smart---and a deep, complicated thinker. I know.
But, why not stop with editing and re-editing just for a minute?
Why not just be yourself and write honestly and openly?
Write simply and clearly about your REAL thoughts/feelings. You know: The important stuff in this VERY short life of ours.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm close to 50. Somehow, I think you are not too far away from it. Please correct me if I'm mistaken in that regard!
As for correcting me in any other way, I ask you to have restraint! Instead, be frank, open, and real! I already know that you're smart.....
If you choose not to do that, then you are really not taking this process seriously. That's fine, but as "I'm so Exhausted" stated, that's your choice...
OK - Here goes...
Submitted by ADH9er on
OK - Here goes...
1. I feel for your health & marriage challenges
2. I am 58 1/2 years old
3. I originally had only your first paragraph of your' WOW' post when I responded - not sure why ? Now it is all there
4. 'I think I can' meaning = self talk around communicating with my spouse. I am often encouraged to be more positive in regard to things in my conscious, and I want to succeed
5. My first ever electronic interaction communicative interaction on the Web was here on this forum 01/06/16 As I mentioned, snail like one finger hunt & peck is so very challenging, to accurately capture my 'busy' thoughts before they vaporize - "oh look a shinny penny"
6. I would love to be fluid in this form of communication.
7. As you can see, or perhaps I am coming across as clever or arrogant or coy to you, I seriously have difficulty, and am often impeded in sharing what exactly is going on 'upstairs'. Particularly the hard stuff. It can jumble together, come out wrong, very- very often pisses- off / hurts my wife, boards me on the Concord - non-stop to angertown, 'TA-DA' Dog-house-here-I-come.
8. As as for 'honestly & openly' I give you my word, anything you have or will read, composed by me, is my pain-stakingly best effort, to transfer my guts. For all to see mind you, and how many 'out-of-grace ADHD Men' can you read here? Why do you suppose that is?
As for the openness part, that's a tough one. If you Back-Read the marital 'Wake' of heartache and frustration as through the eyes of my Beloved (only respect and love inferenced by this word), you will find validifyable significant suffering she is and has endured being married to me. However, should I 'spew or vent' my paradigm, do you think I could be confident to receive solace and comfort in my Real suffering ? ( please read the very first reply l received here). Or would I be characterized as a selfish, piece of s____? Please know I am not taking up anyone's cause, but my own on this point.
9. Almost forgot, Your point on my 'All lower case' response conveying sarcasm - Thank you for awareness encouragement. As with the ignorant use of 'Caps', I failed to convey my intended message, this time of humility and regret. It's like I am told often, just because I know what's in my head ...
10. 'simply & clearly' holds the greatest challenge, because , given the amount of 'will' I exert in my attempts to achieve that elusive prize, even to new acquaintances struggle to hear me.
That only took Over 3 hours to compose. I am spent.
look forward to the next time we chat
ADH9er
I get it---and you--to the extent that I can--just a bit...
Submitted by troy127 on
Thanks you so much for ALL of that!
I know appreciate that it's hard to write.
What struck me was the amount of time you stated you spent on the response!
In my world, responses take 10 minutes, but NOT without a lifetime of deep thought on various issues preceding it.
Ok, back to the issue at hand:
First off, is it true that you and your wife are using this site as a way to communicate? Are you still living together? Are you still a team?
I really hope so.
No one is seeking to pick apart your (or any one else's) intellectual capabilities!
What I suspect we ALL seek is understanding, compassion, and a real program for ACTUAL change.
That's it.
I apologize if I misread your intent on your email exchanges.
-T
Hello troy127
Submitted by ADH9er on
So very glad to have another opportunity to exchange thoughts. I am searching to discover those things I bring to dialogue that so very often derail my interactions. Thank you for your openness.
I truly disdain the amount of effort I must enlist to 'try' to open the window to my insides. I can see how it would be viewed by some as a lack of connection.
Q-1 Yes, my intent is to avoid the common impediments that 'I' bring to the conversation. i.e. Body language, lightning speed reactive anger, thinking on my feet as apposed to rational intentional thinking.
Q-2 Yes we are living together, now for 31 years. We courted not living together 2 years prior.
Q-3 Now that one is subject to scrutiny; I want to say Yes - given the amount of frustration going both ways, I suspect it often appears not.
Thank you - I seemed to have sent this before finished.
ADH9er
ADH9er....This say's it all....
Submitted by c ur self on
Isn't that the story of all our lives? Self-Control, communication, and retention of peace?
amelioration
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
troy127,
I had to Google that word. Whether is was amelioration or not, my post contained words typed out of frustration. Nothing was mean nor nasty, it just did not convey anything other my sheer frustration last night.
I know better than to get into a deep discussion when I am hungry, angry, lonely, or tired.
I am so glad to hear your input. thanks!
Very truly,
Liz
Why?
Submitted by troy127 on
I don't understand why you have chosen this way to respond.
I asked you straightforward questions, and you have chosen to respond in riddles.
You continue to view this process, in my view, as a joke, so I''ll not respond anymore.
As for your wife, I wish her the best.
I don' t understand
Submitted by ADH9er on
I civilly responded 1and1/2 hours after you posted this.
ADH9er
I respect your choice to not respond
Submitted by ADH9er on
I respect your choice to not respond. I only hope that the comment from C ur self @ 20:26 didn't throw you off. ADH9er
*Hugs* I'm sorry for how you
Submitted by AliceInBraids on
*Hugs* I'm sorry for how you are having to live right now! My husband is the same. For me, I am able to come first when he has the proper meds and is *taking them properly*. I know you said you've tried that, idk to what extent but I would suggest giving it another try if possible. My husband has had to try many meds & combos of meds over a long period of time to find the right ones but when it was figured out it was a sight to behold. He was truly the man I fell in love with again, and he DID acknowledge all he had put me through and how our marraige had suffered and he put me FIRST and he was actually sorry! And it was all genuine and thinks improved so much. It was like Heaven.
Of course he abused the shit out of these meds and everything went back to crap and I am now once again a lonely, bitter wife to a hateful spiteful erratic 14 year old. But it can happen. And when mine got better... I don't know how to word it except to say I miss that guy SO much. I'm living day to day just hoping to see him again someday. Very best of luck to you dear.