I don't know which behaviors to attribute to ADHD and which are "just the way he is". I have been with my boyfriend for a little over a year, In the spring, he lied to me about smoking pot, and apologized for not being honest with me. I explained that lying hurt me, that I felt as if I weren't worthy of the truth.
Fast forward to two weeks ago. The signs were there. I know when something is off between us. I came over to his place, and there was an apology card/note, along with some flowers.
He admitted smoking again. Ha had been under alot of stress lately, and smoking calms him down. He said : I need to find a way to tell you, but I don't know how. I don't want to hurt you".
This morning, I found a vial on the coffee table, when I was cleaning. It looked like a tube from an eyeglass repair kit. On the tube was a sticker that said The Clear Blue Raz. I didn't know what it was so I Googled it.
Technically, he isn't smoking pot. He is dabbing, a term my sister used. I didn't know what it was. She says it can be dangerous, because it contains a heavy dose of THC. She said the percentage back when she used to use it was around 5-10% THC. Now, its upward of 90%. She said that people have had seizures, and passed out from using it. Even when purchasing it from a dispensary.
I am worried about him. I am upset about his lying but I don't know what to do. I've spent hours crying and upset.
I had to look that up, too.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hi, Adele,
Sorry you're having to work through this kind of thing. I had to look up what that product was, too, to find out that it was a marijuana concentrate. A July post of yours also shed some light:
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on Sat, 07/23/2016 - 07:39
I hear you about feeling that you are not deserving of honesty, or that you feel stupid when he lies to you.
"I am not married, but I've been dating my ADHD boyfriend for almost a year. When we first started dating, he was brutally honest about things he did in the past, some of which I didn't need to know. A cocaine addiction in his 20's and smoking pot just to name a few. He said that he had smoked pot a few months before meeting me, but quit, because he felt he was smoking it too much, and it was costing him more money than he could afford to spend. I've never smoked it, and at my age probably never will. I have a 13 year old daughter, and I don't want her exposed to that. I know many people who think that pot is no big deal, but given his past cocaine addiction, I think he should stay away from it."
Is your only issue now the possibility that he is lying?
It's possible that he's being half honest. As I had to read to learn, no using a marijuana concentrate is not ingested via marijuana cigarettes or...I gather, an oldstyle bong, but yes it can be vaped or taken in through a device designed for it or inhaled in another way. So what's smoking, to you, and to him. Does the difference matter to you?
The tougher one for me, that you brought up in your July post is addiction.
I think for the wellbeing of your own heart and for your daughter, you need to ask him him detailed questions about where he got that product, what he does with it, and what he plans to do with it. His ADHD or his anxiety dont require him to ingest
You're in relation with him, you and he have discussed his use of coke and marijuana in his past, you have a daughter to think about, and you have your own knowledge of what is harmful to you in relationship and what is not. Its not all about him. There are two other people involved.
I hope you dont avoid this conversation because you love him. Lovable people can get tangled up with harm to themselves and/or others. I used to when I was younger, want to live trusting the literal words and appearances to me of matters. Now I think that works only if the other person has a habit of speaking the direct truth and if his/her words consistently match his/her actions. I'd much much rather live in trust, but if a serious indicator that there's more to something than what is being shown (the Raz, but not the means of ingestion or his use of it) ask. You need to find out what's going on, and make your decision about his truthtelling based on his answers. One of your past posts said he had some counseling sessions with someone who helped him.
Good luck
Clarity
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
A lot has changed since yesterday.
It turns out that the vial I found was from about a month ago. I put it on the coffee table without thinking after I found it on the couch. Then when I was clearing off the coffee table I looked at it closer because I didn't want to throw away something he might want to keep. That's when I Googled it and found out what it was.
I jumped to the wrong conclusion because of his lying to me about it in the past. My boyfriend has problems with his cervical spine he has a herniated disc that he has had to deal with and in the past smoking marijuana has helped with the pain.
At first he was angry at my reaction to finding this. But then he realized that his not being honest with me caused me to jump to the conclusion that he was using again . Because he's had so many problems with his neck lately he is going to see his doctor and see what kind of therapy his doctor can recommend for him. And it may include the use of prescribed marijuana to help with his pain management. I told him that it wasn't about him smoking pot it was about him lying to me, and I meant it.
I explained to him that to me trust and honesty go hand-in-hand with loving someone. It's not just about me trusting him but him trusting me enough and trusting in our relationship for him to be honest with me and open about anything and everything. He needs to trust me enough to tell me what's going on which he had not done previously.
Until our conversation this morning I had no idea that the pot was about his pain management. He hides it well from me when he's in pain. If he had just been honest with me about using it for his back pain, it wouldn't have been an issue.
Now that the air has been cleared we can move forward.
Two Bits....From the Peanut Gallery......"Stigma" & "Shame"
Submitted by kellyj on
Adele,
If I may? I wanted to chime in her from the voice of experience and give you my two bits here in light of the fact ( only ) that neither you or NowOrNever...."knows"....exactly what this is all about, in terms of "Drugs" ( apparently) only in that you have never tried them yourself ? And as you said.......likely at this point, you don't see yourself doing this either which there is absolutely positively nothing wrong that ? Why? If you have no reason what so ever to even try it.....then why do it? It's illegal first off...and second off....there are many things to fear as concerns which you just brought up yourself which all have valid reasons NOT to? I used that term here specifically here "drugs".....since this is the term used...as a catch all "phrase" like...."drug user"....or even more to the point in some circles who might even use the term...."Pot Addict"....interchangeably with "drug addict".....which gets thrown into this big pile with "drugs"....as in any "drug" that is illegal or used by ( another catch all generalized phrase(s) ) "users". It's a pretty broad stroke that gets painted as a picture here and that starts from a place of ignorance in anyone until they have actually done it themselves to know how to sort this all out and make any distinctions here? What you have to go on for any reassurance then....is "hear say" and "opinion" mostly....if the only information coming to you is from the legal side of these definitions which is always going to be one sided. ALWAYS!!!
Look at it this way in like of the current political climate and atmosphere with two "adversarial parties"...trying to debate and argue with each about who is "Right"? What you are getting is only 1/2 the story from each candidate which is 100% in their own favor....and against their opponents? Okay....so that's pretty easy to understand right? In essense....they aren't going to do the job of their opponent....and provide much proof or evidence ( within everything they say ) that will concede or tell the flip side or other side of the story ( the other 1/2 ) that would actually be helping their opponet "win" by doing their "job" for them...and helping their opponent....beat them in the race to win which would actually be shooting themselves in the foot by selling ( us all )...and what a great and wonderful person or candidate their opponent is just so they can beat them and win over them? It's just not going to happen is it ? You are not going to hear...the "other side" ...of this persons opponent in any good frame of reference....from the very person who has something to lose by doing so? And the point here I'm trying to make is......at the end of the debate.....it leaves us with having to decide or determine....a winner....or only one person to choose from out of the "two". By design...this is how our Political system works? And every accusation being thrown at each other and being hurled back and forth in this process...is a lot of "rhetoric"...."flotsam and jetsam"....and just plain out "lying" and "slander" and not a whole lot of the truth?
And the thing is.....we expect that from Political candidates...but is it really all that different with people in general when you stand to lose something and are in fear of rejection, shame or the "stigma" cast over you by public "opinion"...and all the "pundits" that are out there ( these self proclaimed "experts" who are so full of themselves...but haven't the foggiest of what they are talking about sometimes...because they are more full of themselves than they are full of "experience" or any really good information other than what they feel like themselves? They literally have no ground to stand on....but they sure sound like they do? All they are ...are "talking heads"......with no substance or means to "prove anything" and are mostly just full of shit....IMHO? At least the ones who are and admit they are....are likely to at least.....gain some credibility and can humble themselves a little and make a joke about and even admit that this is what they are doing "openly" with nothing to hide?
In contrast to the "Rush Limbaugh's" out there who clearly got caught or exposed to being addicted to pain meds but still can't fully own up to that .....the "Howard Sterns" as in his "counter point" or "counter part" in this arena of "Conflict" and "pundits going at it"....might say that Rush Limbaugh is a "Pumpkin Headed M#$%* er F&^$#% er....while at the same time admit openly...that he has a small Penis and can't believe why any woman might want to sleep with him since he's such a "dweeb" and a "neurotic mess" ...he is certainly is never get hired as a Male Model, a "Male Stripper" or in the "Porn Industry" because of his "magnetism" ...as it were...in "appealing" or not? At least you can listen to him...and not feel like he has anything to hide which of course to a point...everyone does in terms of "stigmas" and "public opinion"...if the "public themselves"....is being represented by you...speaking in those same terms?
Melissa mentioned this in her seminar class about bring up difficult topics that have to do with addictions or even "habits" that might be viewed from the same place where shame and or stigma are involved and using those same means to either "guilt" or "shame" a person even more by doing it...which will only drive them "further underground"....as she said it which was really right on as a way to say this?
This is where I really, honestly and openly.....walk in here and not have anything to hide....no shame or stigma and nothing to lose or gain by not just saying what I think this is and especially when it comes with no "real experience" and just "speculation", "public or personal opinion" and/or hear say to go on? If you want to know the truth.....coming right from the source ( the horse).... then my name is "Ed " here...for all intensive purposes?? LOL
Let me work backwards from that vile you found...and tell you honestly what I am not only just a little sure of ...but coming from experience...both now and in the past? My experience now at the present...is coming from the fact....that I live where Marijuana is legal first off...so I have no legal fear of stigma involved and with no reason to hide in that respect? It's totally and absolutely 100% legal ( with some restrictions of course ) .but I can walk down the street with an Ounce of Pot in my pocket and even pull it out right in front of a Police officer..and as long as I'm not smoking it in plain sight out in public.....I could wear that vile around my neck like a piece of jewelry...and not get into trouble or be doing anything wrong? There is no legal stigma what so ever and there fore...no reason to hide in shame? And to make this point continuing on in this direction.....my neighbor actually gave me a pot plant from his garden because he has one too many ( according to law ) and asked if I wanted it just so not to throw it away and I said sure...and grew it right on my deck this last summer since.....that is also legal too? At the same time......I quit smoking Pot years ago...and have had no real interest in it all...until just recently from it becoming legal and all of this "hear say" I've been hearing...and wanted to find out for myself instead of speculating and just being another pundit....who didn't know what they were talking about?
As far as dabbing is concerned? I'll give you my two bits on that one too because I have one...and one from recent experience? Like I said.....I recently have taken an interest in this in terms of ADHD..since there are those who say it's helpful and those who say it's not? As far as ADHD is concerned itself? I don't think it's helpful....but what it is helpful for is anxiety and stress that can accompany ADHD so that in itself...can have some benefit? The same exactly for Cocaine. There is a reason why I take "Amphetamine Salts " every day now for ADHD...and even though Amphetamine Salts....are not exactly the same as taking Meth...or Cocaine.....the benefit without the hazards and the getting "high" part.....are still there for Meth or Cocaine for a person with ADHD...just without the parts that make it problematic and so addictive which is the mental relief from pain, anxiety or emotional upheaval ( depression )...and just the parts that help with focus, clarity and motivation...instead? Looking at it that way.....one is going towards something "positive"...and one is try to get away from something "negative" both at the same time? The problem with Meth or Cocaine is.....you can't really separate one from the other so you get both at the same time? And because you get both at the same time with Cocaine and Meth....you can't really NOT get addicted to it....if you take it to self medicate and are not just doing it on occasion like a brief "vacation" or for "recreational" purposes? You can use it that way and not be an addict and this is where people start saying and confusing a lot of things together and not saying the entire story or whole picture that is actually the truth? Not every one who has a drink....on occasion or even a glass of wine with dinner is an alcoholic and it's ridiculous to apply that any different to any other "drug" you could name? Just because it's illegal.....your body doesn't know that any different than alcohol so why would anyone make this distinction...as if your body knows anything? You body is going to react and behave the same.....no matter what drug you put into on a physical level and knows nothing of "stigmas" or "legality" and will only respond or react the same no matter the case...in every case across the board...no matter what you are putting into it?
So here's what I know about "dabbing" and that 80% to 90% THC as your sister was mentioning? In contrast to the 15% to 25% THC ( on average now ) with the Marijuana available out there? I tried it ONCE.....recently as yet another experiment to see for myself...and I am not likely to do that again any time soon....( like never ) for one and only one reason? It almost put me down on the ground, caused me nausea, caused my legs to go out from underneath me...and gave me the spins!!! It was absolutely no fun for about an hour of this none stop which was horrible since it was just TOO much. I basically OD'd on it after just one "hit" but here's where I can speak from experience in the past....at different times when I was smoking Pot on a regualr basis. I'm saying as an everyday....rather heavy user who had built up quite a tolerance. A tolerance to the point...it took a lot of Pot..and a lot of very strong Pot...to equal what it would have taken for me.....NOW for example? NOW.....I am not smoking it much or very judiciously and only enough for anxiety as needed which does a pretty good job of that but it takes....very very little...like just one "hit" or "drag" or "toke"....either way you want to word it? Like that one glass of wine with dinner.......that's all I need for the Pot....to do what I need just to relax me and relieve my anxiety if needed and it works great for that and is the equivalent of a beer or a glass of wine.....exactly? No stigmas, no public opinion, no legality issues and no BS? It's exactly the same...and you can apply this the same way?
If I drank a pint of Wild Turkey every night with dinner......the fact that it's legal with no stigma aside from the quantity of alcohol I'm drinking ......is the only difference here and it would take a person a while to build up to drinking a pint of whiskey every night....but there are those who do this and do this without showing much of an effect? Why? Because of that tolerance to it that they built up to over a course of a good amount of time to get there? And it's absolutely no different...with any drug you put into your body like this....no matter what? You're body doesn't know these distinctions..and only knows what it knows and nothing more than that ever?
So speaking in terms of "dabbing"....there is no such thing...as "dabbing" recreationally speaking in those terms. A person who "dab"...and not be have their legs taken out from underneath them like I experienced....has been....and IS DOING Currently.....a level of ingestion that would reflects this tolerance level and there is no two ways around it....unless they are not telling the entire truth. No way...in no under terms but in one respect....it is only how they see it from their perspective...but it's not necessarily....not telling the truth either?
What the problem is as I see this comes from "tacit" understanding? Tacit understanding is the piciture we hold in our heads of what something is...and attached meanings to things that are not always there in the minds of another person? Lidwig Wittgenstien...the Austrian Philosopher in his work "Tractatus Logico-Philisophicus" said...."Woven man nicht sprecken kann, daruber muss man shweigen"...translates as "Where of one cannot speak, therefore must be silent".....is making the same point I was trying to make here with you in the beginning of my comment about pundits and hear say?
In context to what I see and hear with this situation from my perspective is that you have an opinion formed that is clear to your boyfriend as in the "picture in your mind " of what this all is.... but in fear and in fear of rejection or you opinion and beliefs as in this same picture.....he's remaining silent....but at the risk of not being open and honest due to the stigma and shame involved? In the essence of this......you tacit understanding...is different than his experience and his tacit understanding of what that means to him? These two pictures are or can be vastly different....but the fear of what ever here...is driving him underground whether it be of your judgment or your dislike and in fear of what that means? If there are consequences to the truth or in being honest....then this would be a case to be made for more understanding in my mind? Not because anyone has done anything wrong...but in fear of what might happen in the future...based on the past? Openness and exposure to the truth whether we like the sound of it.....is becoming more vulnerable while keeping an open mind both at the same time and being able to hear what the other person is saying...without all those tacit understandings and meanings getting in the way? Just my two bits from the Peanut Gallery...;for what it's worth? ;)
https://youtu.be/pQ33gAyhg2c Ludwig Wittgenstien an excellent take on this IMHO?
J
I told him..
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
That him using Marijuana is not a deal breaker for me ...
Lying is.
If he cannot trust me and trust in what we have enough to be honest with me....that will be a problem for the future. He didn't tell me back in April when he lied to me about it the first time, that he uses it to relieve the pain he has in his back and neck from herniated discs. He is going to see his doctor after the holidays and get the doctors recommendation. When he used to see his doc regularly for his back pain, the doctor had him in physical therapy, and he was using marijuana as well. He will ask his doctor if he thinks it would be a help now. If so, he will go thru the proper channels to get a prescription for it, and go to a dispensary to get it.
I have a cousin who uses marijuana to help her with her symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis. If it helps her, I'm all for it.
I am not a prude, I don't judge other people. I choose not to try marijuana, cocaine, etc and don't think I should have to justify why I don't want to try it. Because I have never used any drug other than alcohol, you are right, I don't know the affect it has on a person. Every person is different. I was just concerned, understandably so, after he told me that in his 20's, his addiction to cocaine almost killed him. I am concerned because I love him.
Marijuana is legal in my state as well.
Whoops, wrong turn at the beginning there, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...at least as far as I'm concerned. Certainly stigma and shame can surround drug use, possessed by the user about him/herself or applied to the user, by someone else. So your headline is about an important topic. But you're off into your thoughts, and perhaps setting yourself up to judge, with this beginnings:
If I may? I wanted to chime in her from the voice of experience and give you my two bits here in light of the fact ( only ) that neither you or NowOrNever...."knows"....exactly what this is all about, in terms of "Drugs" ( apparently) only in that you have never tried them yourself ?
Since I haven't said anything about my life experience with drugs, or for that matter, with alcohol or any other altered states however encountered or sought on this site, I suggest that as you write, J, you're mostly writing to work on your thoughts about shame and stigma related to drugs, not giving me advice about modifying my knowledge or attitude about them, as your sentences directed to me and to Adele indicate.
My read of Adele's last post includes noticing that she posted it shortly after I posted mine, this morning, informing that she had had a direct talk with her partner this morning about his drug use, learned about his use of grass for his back pain, and also learned that he intended to seek medical help for back pain and discuss medical marijuana, as a treatment for it.
So she doesn't sound from what she has written that she has stigmatized her partner, either. I certainly took her literally for what she wrote, and didn't impute to her any treating her partner like a pariah
If you look back, what I recommended her to do is to talk with her partner straightforwardly, asking questions for which she needed answers. I based that suggestion on what she herself had reported that he had reported of himself earlier, and what her concerns were, earlier.
Adele, I'll take this post to write what I wanted back to you: good for you that you did go ahead and speak with your partner. That's the only way to find out what is really going on. I'm glad that you and your partner can now together deal with his back pain. Wishing you well.
Now
LOL "Wrongway Feldman".....My Nickname NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I see what your saying and you're right on that one for sure. Context.....and in terms of implication? I see that too? It's not necessarily correct...but it might be and that's left up to interpretation? Backing up a bit here in just you now for a moment...I see where I blundered and took a short cut which was a mistake? One thing at a time is a better way to approach this I think?
What you said was.... " It's possible that he's being half honest. As I had to read to learn, no using a marijuana concentrate is not ingested via marijuana cigarettes or...I gather, an oldstyle bong, but yes it can be vaped or taken in through a device designed for it or inhaled in another way. So what's smoking, to you, and to him. Does the difference matter to you?
In context.....I took this to mean that the only way you know is from what you read....not from experience? And I was saying it.....from the experience that says......just to clarify what I know that may be different if you had never done this yourself?
And speaking now about what Adele was saying in that she had never tried it but more concerned with lying.....I see where this can get too confusing to sort out and I was actually proving my own point about tacit understanding and meanings? I keep going back to the outline in this forum and have to remind myself of this one premise ( that keeps sticking in my head and is what I am always attempting to do here??? )
As written in the guidelines or by laws if you will?
-Write about your personal experiences / no gross generalizations please
-No personal attacks
-Helpful hints encouraged
-Be civil and respectful, even when writing about difficult topics
-No email or phone contact info. Most links will be removed.
-Remember - your partner may read what you post. Choose your words thoughtfully!
What Wrongway Feldman has so much trouble doing sometimes....is all of these things at once....at the same time and not fail in one item on the list? The First One is what I always try to do and include.....MY EXPERIENCE. This is always my primary goal as stated which is why I always try and include my experience as a means for comparisons or as means to validate anything I say instead of what "I've heard, or read" that I know nothing about in terms of that experience again? At least that's my attempt even if I fail to do so for what it's worth? LOL
But you can't take your own perceptions completely out of this no matter how hard you try and that I don't think it is possible for anyone no matter who you are right? What you or I read into anything...is from our own perceptions more than just face value or experience? No matter how many times I read what you said......I only can see or hear ......as I had to read to learn and I gather....which in terms or context of all these terms used and what they mean......I would have no idea myself.....if I had no experience with it to know what those terms mean and how to apply them?
I guess the question here ....( aside from me being so literal....literally!!!! LOL ) might be less about taking things for face value....and "literally understanding " what these things mean? This is where I struggle the most in? Literal interpretations......and seeing things another way in the context of saying "face value"....and understanding what that means to exactly? If someone says...."I'm going on Holiday"...for example. I'm pretty sure without knowing more...that they are probably not from the USA....but I can't know that for sure? They might BE from the US now....or had parents from Canada, the UK, New Zealand or even Australia.....or even some other country other than the USA...which commonly referees to "Holiday" as "Vacation" instead? Or they might actually be from one of those other countries and now they live in the USA? Or they might be from one of those count ires and that's where they live now.........but as I take this literally and I hear Holiday....instead of the word Vacation.......I can't take that perception away that they are not from or associated by living or having a parent or growing up experience that says they are from the USA...since that is not my experience with these words and that's the only way I can hear it? I don't know of course.....but I can't hear it...and therefore....take that for "face value"...without that being there many times?
The word Vacation and Holiday....can be used interchangeably....but I don't know that either if they know that...or anything more than the fact...that I know this from expereince and nothing else...which tells me these things? I know one thing for certain for example......if someone ( from where I live ) says ORE-E-GONE....as a way to pronounce Oregon.....then they aren't from Oregon....you can be damn sure of that one!!!! LOL People and in EVERYONE.....from Oregon.......never says ORE-E-GONE.....and that stands out like a sore thumb and then some since it's Literally....a pet peave seemingly as a whole or as a group.....of anyone I have ever met....than tells me so. There are T shirts and bumper stickers to make that point even more clear and it appears to be pretty unanimously agreed upon....because is grates on your nerves...to hear it said...any other way if you actually are from ORE-E-GUN and say it ORE-E-GONE. No doubt, what so ever in my mind but it is possible I guess if you were to approach it that way?
But my experience and my mind ....still can't get past this now.......because in that one case......NO ONE from here....( like no one never in my entire lifetime of experiencing this and living and talking to people who ive here for almost 60 years to this day ) say it that way unless they are from somewhere else? In this one case.....there is only one....right way...but what that means is the only important aspect here? But....I still know what that person is saying the other way......and I also know they are not from Oregon....both at the same time? I can't really remove that perception I have from this....no matter how many times I hear ORE-E-GONE.....it still means that person is not from here.....but not that their wrong if that makes sense? I don't judge them for saying it that way ( and I don't really care all that much and it's not important or that big a deal )...but I'm not going to believe them if they say they're from ORE-E-GONE......no matter how many times they say it to me without some proof otherwise because of it? If that makes sense?
So what is face value here in light of that? I don't know? Which is why I struggle with this? How do you remove your perception completely...and what does this mean or imply? Is that judgment or is that being too literal and if it is.....how do you not be so literal....in the case of what you know from your experience? That's the million dollar question I think and I'm the last person to ask the answer too since I have no idea? Wrongway Feldman....at your service!!! I have no answers here other than to stick to the program....and give my experience as my only means to fit the criteria and to try and follow the rules which is what I'm trying to do at least and doing all those things at the same time...and still not blunder as I do so often? What this really comes down to is not knowing how myself ....and that's the truth. ( the facts Jack ) It's me making attempts...and hoping one day I'll get it right? LOL Trial and error...and learning from experience so I'll have that the next time and I can speak from that place...once I have it? You can't get there from here...as they say? If that makes any sense at all...which is starting to get confusing even to me sometimes!!! ha! lol
I will say now in context to what Adele was saying? What might be seen as lying.....could be something else instead or at least......as an isolated "thing"....with no context or reasons behind it...it could mean manhy things for manhy reasons and there is just no way of knowing without those perceptions in there. If things are seen isolated...out of context....then the meaning is literally...literal and can't be seen any other way which in my mind.....resolution ( not between you and other people necessarily ) but for yourself and means.......how do you do this without the context and experience there to fill in the blanks so you can see it for what it is....instead of what it isn't? Saying....only one person knows that answer...and it's always you no matter what anyone else says right? Maybe not?
And maybe that's my problem? As I see it....( as I want it for myself? ) that's what support is and providing a means or avenue to do so which means...a different perspective than your own...instead of telling people what they want to hear? I hate that more than anything myself personally and it feels patronizing when people do that with me which is that last thing I want to hear most of the time? Not what I want to hear to make me "feel better"...but the truth which doesn't always feel good....but it's better than the alternative which at least it is for me which is what it's all about so we all can feel better at the end of the day? Isn't that the goal anyway? To feel better yourself and actually knowing instead of fearing the unknown? It's not up to me or you or anyone else to tell you what to do or think....it's up to you to take what others say...and find your truth what ever that may be? That's what support means to me......the truth...no matter how much it hurts but I know this is not the same for everyone...and this is where I have no ideas? This is where.....I can get soooooo confused and need a lot of help!!!!! LOL
Wrongway Feldman
I had to look up what "Clear
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I had to look up what "Clear Blue Raz" was. That product by that name.The pictures equipment online for inhaling concentrated marijuana have some technical features that don't look like the bongs of the 60s. They're also described used differently. But it's a big leap to go from me checking those details to anyone presuming anything about my diet, recreation or medical needs in the present or throughout my lifetime. Let alone that I was being judgemental while lacking experience.
J, I always appreciate that you think about things at large-scale level often. You bring up some large issues about reading literally what people write (or say) versus reading into those words the presumptions and motives that one would have oneself or have knowledge of coming from one's own life.
So what is face value here in light of that? I don't know? Which is why I struggle with this? How do you remove your perception completely...and what does this mean or imply? Is that judgment or is that being too literal and if it is.....how do you not be so literal....in the case of what you know from your experience?
Good question, J.
If my issue is learning about someone else's life, their words online are more important than my using those words to think my own thoughts.
If I'm in a moment of wanting to use what other people are writing online to do some work on myself, well, then I borrow the piece or pieces of waht I read online to do that thinking about myself. That to me is different from being attentive to someone else writing about themselves, on their own terms.
If all I've got are someone's words online about themselves, I am lacking a whole lot of things that I usually use to consider whether to take things as said without wondering if there's anything deeper or hidden, or to consider that there's "more" or "deeper" or "related but oblique," to what was said. Here's a list of what I use offline. I'll begin with the big one, the one that Gavin de Beker, who writes about things like airport security and being safe while walking on city streets.
1) He says that the biggest tool that professional security people or detectives uses, to find out someone's thoughts, attitudes, issues, whether they're lying or not, basically, what weight of value to put on someone's spoken words, is to ask them what they're thinking, listen well, and believe the person who asked the question. Adele and her partner did that with each other.
2) Reading faces and bodies. That helps offline
3) Context. History. There's an absence of details of life of anyone who is mentioned on this board
My attitude....which certainly doesn't need to be yours....is, what's wrong with believing a writer's self description?
You know, my husband and I seem to be in a phase of our communication with each other that we weren't in when we were first married. I say, "seem." I can speak for what I think when I say things to him, but I don't think I'll ever know what he is thinking at the moment. Or feeling. Unless I ask him and listen.
My husband at first would label my feelings and attitudes pretty often...he told me what (he thought) they were! We were first married, and hadn't built context and familiarity with facial gestures etc. He was often very far off. So far that I wondered what the heck was going on, and really wondered what he had at stake that he was, very insistent, that I was thinking and feeling certain things. It sometimes seemed intolerable to him that I said, "no, I wasn't thinking that, I was thinking this..."
I've been through too much in life on the personal front, to be very gaslightable, any more. I did wonder whether he was reading my physical demeanor in a way that other people around me didn't seem to read, but I really didn't know. I don't know what I look like from the outside.
His insistence, that I was thinking and feeling, and even saying things that I didn't think, feel or say, and the frequency with which he did that was rather mind boggling. That's my reaction. I couldn't make sense of what he was doing. Where did he get that stuff that he was insisting I was thinking, feeling and saying? I don't need a Freudian answer to that one. All I need is for him to know me. We're married. We need to know who each other is. It kept going on, and I finally decided that if I just let it go, and let him keep repeating these things about my insides that were so off, eventually it was going to be an obstacle. People treat other people the way they think other people are.
The only thing I could think to do about it, J, was to tell him the truth. Just keep telling the truth. As C said about apologies, once is enough. So also was telling the truth about my thoughts and feelings. Once was enough, no defensiveness, no prying into his mind, no big deal. Just "this is what I'm thinking." It has been a good exercise.
He's a good truth teller, himself. Sometimes he has used silence about some things to keep them not visible. Welcome to the human race. But if you point blank ask him, like it sounds like Adele asked her partner, my husband tells the truth. Directly. He doesn't evade. .
I don't know how many times over the first years I said to him, "no, it's literally just what I said, and no more. I don't have a hidden agenda. There's no more down inside me. What I said is it. That's it"
Of course, if there IS more to it, I need to get all of it out. If I'm murky in my feelings, I have to say I'm murkey in my feelings. If I'm tired, I say I am tired. Plain talk.
The change is that we seem better able to cut to the chase, say it, deal with it and go on.. I wouldn't give up this literally telling the truth. It's a good practice for me.
NOW......."Know How" vs "Knowledge"
Submitted by kellyj on
NON....as I've read the things you've said to me in the past.....there is a common denominator that you've shared repeatedly in your experience with at least one parent ( your mother in this case ) who had a character or personalty disorder and the effects this had on you including from what I get very much from the things you've said....a similar ( even if different in it's own right ) experience in having to demystify those extremely troubling and somewhat mysterious and baffling behaviors that are both destructive in one sense...and completely frustrating on both accounts. The cause and effect of this much for me at least...was the hardest thing to figure out as well as the motivations behind it? I honestly cannot speak for anyone else in a similar situation...but, there does seem to be a number of common threads that appear the be the same in many ways and that would see to me...the things we share in common in just the experience itself? What someone does with that I think...is what is as individual as each person is in their own right? I hope I said that well since it is what I see? I do get that picture in the things you've expressed that I think the best way to describe it as a "collection" of things...all rolled into one without an exact name for it? The end result is as said......"abuse" on the part of the person who has to end up dealing with this on the other side but here's what I have thought about in my own experiencing this?
I had never once considered that I was abused in that respect and in my own acceptance of what was.....I learned to accept a lot of things that were otherwise "unacceptable" as somewhat "normal" especially when the ( gaslighter themselves ) does a good job of convincing you that it's you...and it's "all in your head".....or.....that it's "ALL YOU." You mentioned this before saying it's a form of conditioning and I knew exactly ( instantly ) what you meant by that from the same or similar experience? What that really boils down to as I learned early on in therapy is this concept of being "an extension" of the other person as if you are not an 'individual" or "autonomous being" in your own right and are just there to serve that persons agenda while being masked by this double talking confusion being thrown at you that always says....."it's you...not me.....you're the one who crazy or imagining things.....I know what's best for you.....you don't know anything.....I know what's in your best interest.....listen to me....(pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!! ) The Great an Powerful Oz...as spoken!! "
If I said that well.....I think you and many folks who come here....may also immediately or instantly understand if that is the experience they have come to know or can relate with? And going back in time myself.....to the time before I realized any of this......there are lot of conclusions and skills you develop ( both good and bad ) because of it? As I'm thinking about this more in the before and after you come to this somewhat ( sobering? ) realization.....the bad seems to only come from not realizing this in the first place or.....your denial of this? In my own words......the denial of realizing that you've been bamboozled and that all those things were lies? "All those things"....in respect to those conclusions that you had arrived at as a means to explain any of this or at least....in an effort to rationalize...the irrational?
And as my T now faithfully points out to me as a reminder......."splain'in".....keep your eye on that one.( for myself that is...not for anyone else necessarily? )....it's a skill set...all on it's own...and it comes as a side effect of this in that it's a skill you automatically adopt in order to compensate for.....what normally would not need to be compensated for if this was not the case? In fact....as I have come to realize....there are a lot of skills you learn as a means to adapt and either you learn to adapt or you don't and those skills will reflect this ability.....or not?
This is where I want to word this well...and not come off sounding like I am blowing my own horn? I do really believe that how a person experiencing this manages it and learns these skills and how they adapt and adjust to them....has more to do with that person....than it does to do with the person doing it to you? Like I said....the experience it self...... is the same to a certain degree within those collection of behaviors that are similar or the same? One of the first revelations I had in my T's office was when he said " and the one thing you can count on...is that they are extremely predictable....in fact...they are extremely easy to manipulate once you know how? " and that's when I almost came out of my chair because that was such a confirming, validating and empowering moment for me. Like jumping up and down and dancing a jig...right there in his office!!!
“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!” He chortled in his joy." lol!!! I had felt so much confusion and literally guilt...by stumbling quite by accident...on many of these hidden weakness's that are inherent to a person of this nature? In the very essence of this Achilles heal that seems to be shared along with those common behaviors.....is a "goal" or an "agenda" that is never spoken but many times easily seen? What you said here is just another one of those "instance"...where I read this and again went....yep. You and me both and I feel strongly....that there is a quality there that kind of quickly and easily calls ...BS...or like having a built in BS detector on board that is the counter part to the gaslight ability to gaslight you for ever before you start to "catch on"....so to speak?
The confusing part I think ( at least for me ) was when I was in the midst of disseminating all of this...when I started realizing as I was reading and learning more about the disorder itself....that these adaptive skills can in their own right....mimic the behaviors of the person doing it to you and that is both disheartening and scary.....( at least for me ) when you realized the the chip off the old block....is really very much reality in once aspect of this? The reality that I have come to the full realization ....that really is? Along with that conditioning and that "becoming an extension"....can come what I call "grooming"...and learning the same skills yourself even if the motivation or the agenda isn't there....... just in defense or in retaliation as a means of self protection? In other words....you become more like them in some ways......even if you aren't that way yourself.....if that makes sense?
I can put this better in a metaphor....in terms of that poem ( one of my favorites )...of the Jaberwock ( or Dragon ) and you becoming the dragon slayer. In order to become a successful Dragon Slayer....you need a specific set of "skills" in order to do this .....and from one person to the next within those skills....some people as just inherently better ( like in anything else ) than others in doing that? And in referencing myself.....I would put myself into the category as somewhat successful at doing this however!!!!! Within all of this.....what I finally realized was the being a Dragon Slayer is not...or was not my original intention or goal? Without that "presence" there to begin with ( not by choice but by necessity or sorts ) I feel that I was neither designed with that intention in mind....nor that this was my calling...at all!!! I would rather not...in other words and I would rather not be that way if I had had the choice to begin with?
But as I see it......a skill is a skill no matter which way you slice it? If used in other ways....these are skills you already have and and to a certain degree....they can work equally in your favor as well once you can see it and understand that this is the case? It's at this point in time...that my own fears.....that I was like this myself despite my family members and especially my own mother...who seemed so sure that I was NOT...anything like my father in respect to this? My reality however told me different..and the difference in terms was that I had the potential or the abilities learned from the skills of being a successful Dragon Slayer.....if need be....and if need be came naturally....when ever it was called upon? lol
I have to go back to my time as "Crowd Management Control" in college at rock concerts. My roommate in college was on the University football team ( captain of the defensive unit )..who was big guy...and stronger than all get out!! If you looked at this guy....you'd think he was too bulky and cumbersome to run very fast or be very quick but you'd be sorry for making that assumption because he could move and run for short distances like a Grizzley Bear....amazingly fast!!! Getting hit by him would be the equivalent to getting hit by a Mack Truck and you'd know how wrong you were...if you underestimated his agility...and then some!!! LOL This was one of my best friends growing up and he was almost twice my size back then.....even though once ....( when the Dragon Slayer came out since my friend was doing something extremely disrespectful and being a bully with me...only once mind you )....I hit him so hard in the face that it rung his bell and he was stunned there for a moment...both in a state of shock somewhat..and in that I nailed him right square between the eyes!!! He said he saw stars for about 30 seconds which was during this time I was counting down as being my last moments on earth!!! LOL Or so I thought? As it turned out.....he actually knew....why he got hit and because of that...he didn't nothing but become much more civil after that?
So later when this crown control company was recruiting new "large bodies" individuals to come work rock concerts.....I tagged along anyway with my friend and handful of guys who were on the football team and snuck in that way only on they're coat tails since...I did not fit the profile necessarily that they were looking for? ( smaller, lighter and skinnier lol ) But in that weird twist of fate....I found these skills I am talking about ( as Dragon Slayer ) to really come in handy...to the point....I was a natural even though I didn't look the part necessarily? What I did have as I found...was the ability to sniff out or spot Dragons ...by just looking at them sometimes and being able to spot them.....in a crowd? There were times that I could just tell..and in many of those moments....all you needed to do was make eye contact and then shake your head ( in the NO motion )...and that was enough to stop any convert activity dead in its tracks. LOL And when it really came down to an actual physical confrontation....there were those who just stood there...and there were those who moved and moved quickly...almost instinctual you might say..and that was me? The boss recognized this and took me aside and said...." I had my doubts about your size at first...but I wish I had more guys like you on my staff....you're Okay in my book." Which was both kind of surprise and kind of validating again....both at the same time??
I guess this boils down to one thing at least with me as the end result of this? There is a thing called "awareness" which is not one of these skills as I'm seeing it? That part I had to earn and learn to do and was not my strong suit? What was and is my strong suit and what I am attributing to this...is that kind of "hyper vigilent alertness"...and a means to "think on your feet" in an instance and know exactly what to do without ever having done it before..which was the case in that job...which suited me extremely well ( plus it was fun and I got to see dozens of rock concerts for free and even got paid for it? That and hanging around back stage which was really fun and you got to meet or at least see the performers at close range off stage which was a great experience too? remember seeing lot of these famous rock stars and going...mmmmm....they're lot shorter in person than up on stage??? LOL )
But the point of even bring this up is a point I wanted to bring attention too? In respect to this job as I remember it so well...is the fact...that when called upon as Dragon Slayer with an unruly customer...the end result in every case....was throwing there ass out the door and slamming it behind them "Don't let the door...hit you on the ass on your way out mind you!!!! A
nd Good Riddance!!! Slam!!! " LOL And each time you did that....there was a sense that you had done exactly what you were hired to do...and bounce people out the door. And with that...there was a profound sense of resolution...and now.....to back out there and do it again!! yeah!!! LOL At the very least...it was cathartic and you got paid for it no less?
Amd all of this.....comes from that experience and the skills you learn in being this way? Until you learn that a Dragon Slayer...is really just a specialized kind or skill and see it as that....until you step out of it....( or snap out or it more like it...out of denial that is? )....at least for me and speaking for myself here.....I realized that I was not really cut out to be that and this was not really who I was?
But in terms of those skills however...they are not really wasted as long as you take advantage of them? If used in a different way....the qualities and skills you learn can only be to your benefit and can be...for the benefit of others if you learn to modify them a bit and this is what I am learning to do better all the time with my wife? I've made that mention before as seeing her like "Childs play" and in the essence of this...I see a person in a similar situation...where the Dragon won and my wife was left with no skills as a Dragon Slayer both...in her ability to become one...and learning "how to do it?"
On a cognitive level...she has knowledge and thinks she knows at times? But in light of that article that I posted recently where it said..." there is a difference between "knowledge"...and "know how"...and when I read that I went yes.....there certainly is? "Know How" is that tacit understanding or "knowledge" that transcends "knowledge" into a "knowing" when things become instinctual and intuitive without ever having done them before? Right then in an instant without having to think about? You just know ...but you can't explain why?
But in respect to what my boss said to me when he made that comment.....people can see it when it shows and they know it or sense it without having to say anything either? This "presence"...that is there which this imbalance in another person creates...does have a it's merits if you can use this or modify it to be used in other ways? This is not in itself....the same dysfunction...it's more of the "counter part" to the dysfunction which only has some similar features but that agenda and motivation is not there at all? What drives it it seems....is the response to...a person like this...not that you yourself ARE this way yourself and that's the most important aspect of point I wanted to make? As my T commented on a number of occasions to me until I could see it too....." the abused...takes a piece of the abuser along with them..."...and what I saying...is exactly what this is I think? If the Dragon...consumes you....then you become more like the Dragon itself? It the Dragon becomes your opponent and you learn to kill the Dragon......you become a Dragon Slayer which appears in this metaphor....to be the two most common options?
And now in light of all of this....I have a new goal and one I am taking on within this metaphor......"Dragon Rider?"....and learning to ride and tame the Dragon instead of killing it? The skills are identical...up to a point? When you can stay on that horse and let her buck until she's broken.....you've just successfully learned to ride the Dragon...and accomplished this new skill as I'm seeing it.
NON....you said something to me that really resonated me within this "new" metaphor. "Lay Down Your Sword"....which puts this into context so well I think?
So I guess the answer to my question ....speaking in those terms? "Face value".....might depend heavily....on the face you'rer looking at....which might determine the role or person you have to become....in order to be successful with them, since they all have there own unique set of skills that you need to learn..and each one is different even within the same or similar features? That's my take on it at least? Until I come up with a new one to take it's place that is? LOL
( one more time..... since it's one of my personal favorites )
Jabberwocky
By Lewis Carroll
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
He took his vorpal sword in hand;
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree
And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
J
Read with appreciation, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
You mentioned this before saying it's a form of conditioning and I knew exactly ( instantly ) what you meant by that from the same or similar experience? What that really boils down to as I learned early on in therapy is this concept of being "an extension" of the other person as if you are not an 'individual" or "autonomous being" in your own right
One of the signs when I was about age 25 that I was beginning the long journey of adult growth was that I ran across Alice Miller's little book, Drama of the Gifted Child and bought a copy. It has to do with what you said. Work on codependence along the way was part of it, too. I think there are a whole lot of ways to be addicted, and only some of them involve substances. There's an addictive aspect to insisting that one's partner or child be an extension of oneself. Or or any other kind of object of cathexis.
"Face value".....might depend heavily....on the face you'rer looking at....which might determine the role or person you have to become....in order to be successful with them, since they all have there own unique set of skills that you need to learn..and each one is different even within the same or similar features?
Well I can see what you're saying, I think.
About that thing of adapting one's way of interaction to the particular person one is engaged with, I think people much farther along than I am, much farther, get to a point where they engage with the reality of the moment, regardless of their past experience of people or the other person, past judgment, past memories, and past expectations about the other person. The idea is to engage in the present with the person, as the person in the present is, not as the present moment is presumed to be an extension of one's own past expectations, thoughts and fears, or as one has previously judged that the other person is.
If You Can't Beat 'em...???????
Submitted by kellyj on
Now what? I think you said it in a way I can expand on? Seeing them as they are now.....rather than seeing them as you'd like them to be in the future...but with that future in mind....and looking for ways to get there.....now? I'm saying this specifically in terms of what is clearly obvious to me with my wife in that dis-connect that is so frustrating when I try and talk with her about this very thing?
She see's what she wants in the future...but cannot connect what is happening NOW.....to get there? I want what I want...and I'm not happy that I'm not getting it now? What she can't see or neglects to see? I don't know that really as to the cause of this in her......but.....I can see this clearly every time she gets to that place where she's not happy about what is happening NOW....and only gets angry when I point out...that something needed to happen before....right now......in order to for NOW to be what you want? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH? LOL
And apparently....the answer there is....I don't know? lol All I know is that this makes her angry and then she shuts down when ever I try and draw the schematic of how she got here.....from there..and and that's all I really know because these are the moments when she walks away and says......"I don;t want to talk about it"...which is code for....."I don't want to hear about it?" in reality?
This is magical thinking of course....and somehow, magically.....what happens now.....should just happen? Why isn't it happening? Well....something before...needed to happen first but didn't? Is that so hard to understand? It's not about the past.....the past is only useful to tell you what you didn't do....that all it's good for. Anything beyond the Now...and doing those things so when you arrive in the future....is the only way for the future NOW...to be what you want? The rest you can just throw in the toilet because it serves no use what so ever...for the future NOW..... that you want to have happen...once you get there? Know what I mean? lol
J
until he gets it from a doctor, it's still illegal
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I guess it's good that your boyfriend wants to get the marijuana from a doctor for medical purposes, because if I could do that I WOULD, since I live every day in horrible pain from 3 ruptured discs in my spine, with stenosis and fibromyalgia, with severe muscle spasms in my upper body that never stop being in spasm. I go to a doctor monthly in a pain clinic so I can live a reasonable life without SEVERE agony. I'd rather smoke pot if I could, and if it would help, but it's still illegal here in the US, (most states), but don't know who to go for, for that, but it's something I need to look into. (the legal side of pot use)
So, the only thing I'm concerned for you about this is that it is still illegal. When one of my girls was still a teenager (ages ago) she did some drugs for a while, and I had police officers as friends, and I worked a job for our local police department. They were very concerned, and told me about the dangers of anyone finding drugs in my home. They told me that we could actually have LOST our home if police ever caught her and found drugs in our home, and we could also have lost custody. Yes, it seemed SEVERE, but these were my friends, and I believed them. People DON'T KNOW THE LAW, and how severe it can be at times. What most of us "think" the law is..........ISN'T. Plus, the law isn't about right or wrong any more, it's about who can afford the best lawyer. That seems like a horrible thing to say, but I know it to be true after having dealings with lawyers, police, schools, and such, and have had other family members arrested and punished for drugs. My brother is also a bounty hunter, and most of his "jobs", are people with drug offenses. It may not seem fair, or just, but it's still the way our laws are written right now, until something is changed or done differently.
I'm concerned for anyone who has illegal drugs in their house, because if they are caught buying or selling, things can get ugly real quick. I'm not trying to be mean or ugly here, I'm just telling you what I KNOW. You have a right to be concerned, and I REALLY HOPE you guys can work things out.
Consequences Dede......And "What Really Is?"
Submitted by kellyj on
Dede...I feel for you and your back pain. I know I've said this before but I do know what that is like and it's much worse....than you might think? Exactly the point? I know what that is...because I have experienced the consequences of having a disk out of whack so bad that I suffered in pain everyday....every time I moved wrong or just moved...period? And this went on for over a year straight with no relief? It's truly debilitating and there is no way to try and explain this to someone for them to actually know what this is like unless you've experienced this for a long time in a chronic way to know all the ways that this effect your life which it does....in ways you'd never think about until that happens?
What you said here is basically the same thing just put into another context I think? "People DON'T KNOW THE LAW, and how severe it can be at times. What most of us "think" the law is..........ISN'T. Plus, the law isn't about right or wrong any more, it's about who can afford the best lawyer. That seems like a horrible thing to say, but I know it to be true after having dealings with lawyers, police, schools, and such, and have had other family members arrested and punished for drugs."
I discovered this the hard way myself....and that's something you find out as a consequence of not knowing that too and being naive? There is what you think the law is....and then theres what really happens and in light of the election last night....there's another case of where if you think they just add up the votes and the person with the most wins....you would be wrong....that's not how it works? It's not about right or wrong or what is fair....it's how the system works and if you don't understand the system...then you will not understand why things happen as they do?
I think Adele already mentioned that Pot is legal in the state she's in....but what you are saying really brings up a lot of things to consider anyway? I forget if you said which state your from (Texas? maybe that wrong, I can;'t remember or I'm confusing you with someone else? ) never the mind.....it doesn't matter in terms of what you're saying? It's just funny from my perspective...to hear where the laws are so different in one place compared to another and what is likely to happen...or what is likely not going to happen in respect to this? I will admit at least here....I am lobbying for change in what I see as such a divergence in the attitude and laws...and how that translates right back to you and your back...and having any other options that might work for you? Cause and effect....hard at work here?
My next door neighbor ( now passed ) had a horrific car accident which left him disabled and in lot of chronic pain and intestinal problems? They had him on a daily regiment of Morphine prescribed to him and basically he was a Morphine Addict because of this which has a lot to be desired and a lot of negative side effects? He ended up smoking pot instead and said if it wasn't for the Pot...he wouldn't have know what to do since that was effective enough to make his life more enjoyable and without all those negative side effects from being a Zombie on Morphine all the time? How can you argue that if it works? Only the person in pain can tell you that and if it works...it works...right? No need for any more proof than that amd in his case....Pot was better than Morphine on daily basis?
But thinking about the consequences and what you said? Before Pot was made legal here in this state....it was decriminalized in 1975..and has been that way ever since? If you were caught with an ounce or less...they gave you a ticket or fine like a traffic ticket .....IF....they even did that? And why I say IF...was because....I only know one person that that even happened too and mostly...they just took it away from you...than the headache and paper work and the possible court appearance....if the ticket was challenged which would have made more headache and work for the Police to do so?
I myself on a couple of occasions....were with others...or had possession in high school and then in college....where the Police either took it...or even just made you throw it away in front of them and just turned a blind eye to it since it was not a priority and the consequence for them....was worse than it was for you the person who had it? The countless stories along these lines suggested that the law was there more to make appearances and unless you had a large quantify..or they thought you were selling it......could really care less which appeared to be the case almost across the board unless there were other extenuating circumstances? As was...the only person I knew who actually got a real ticket and had to pay a fine....had done about 4 other things against the law at the same time..and they were literally...."throwing the book at them". Another "case in point"....on how what is....is different...than what the law says it is and it depends on where you are..and how this is seen to really know anything or what the Hell to do sometimes?
But the point you are making is exactly why I stopped smoking pot a long time ago? Buying and it from sellers...and being in the wrong place at the wrong time and that in it and by itself....was just not worth it anymore to me? Until it became legal here.....I had gotten so tired of the risk and the headache and all that was involved...it just wasn't worth the consequences...which has nothing to with whether is it works for something like pain or you just like it...or whether it has any legitimate use as a form of actual medicine for certain things? At the end of the day....it appears pretty innocuous itself even compared to even alcohol ( drunk driving and domestic violence no less ) which is still illegal to operate a motor vehicle on any drug that impairs you so that's not at issue either?
You don't hear of lot of people getting stoned and getting into bar room brawls do you? LOL On the contrary.....people who smoke pot in general seem to be more "mellow" than anything else and generally speaking...aren't causing a ruckus or getting in to fist fights? lol That...or as I have said......make a lot of "U" turns in driving from missing their exists because they are singing along with their radios and not paying attention to where they need to turn and in general...driving "slower" than the posted speed....in a more stereotypical scenario even if driving...under the influence?? LOL
Anyway.....it's just so ironic...that I can grow a plant given to me by my next door neighbor...in the privacy of my own back yard...and end up with more Pot than I know what to do with...and exceeds anything I need...but I can't give that to you which I would this very minute...because giving it away ( not selling it ) is not illegal either? And because of this fact...those who are selling it illegally....have to go somewhere else since....there's no money in it for the most part...if you can grow it for free at home with no consequences and none of the criminal element involved?
Which is exactly why they did that...or.....you can go down the street and just buy some and the state gets the revenue for it and they don't mind that part either? I honestly don't think anyone who didn't want to do it in the first place....is actually just doing it now because it's legal? The consequences ( or penalties ) were already a joke as I said? Basically...there were no penalties anyway....which is why I think they already proved the fact that any fears along these lines....would have happened anyway and what didn't happen....was what people feared? it was a small step from where it was....to make the next step which basically ...changed nothing other than for someone like you who might find that it works....( like my next door neighbor ...the deceased one ) found that worked for him with no fear of reprisal from the law...or having those severe consequences to worry about as long as it was kept under 1 ounce....it was basically nothing to worry about?
Sorry for rambling Dede....but for the sake of argument.....I am more frustrated in that I can't just send you some of what I have more than I need which is legal....to someone who might really need it and think it will help...and I can't which seems unfair...or even considering that another state takes such a hard line on things....that is perfectly acceptable in another state...where any fears or arguments against it for that reason alone....seem on the ridiculous side since the proof amd the evidence....has already been established and the state....comes out ahead in all of this...the criminal element have to go elsewhere? It's up to families to teach their kids the values they want to instill...and like with me going back to the day.......kids are going to do what they want, whether it's legal or whether it's what their parents want anyway....if that's what they decide they going to do? Pot....was easier to get sometimes...than getting the correct part for you car? LOL
You can't sweep the ocean ....back into the sea with a broom ...as they say? The problem I see in all of this....is thinking that you can? As a wise man once told me..."Any law...that the majority of the people break...on a regular basis...is not a good law. All you end up doing in that case...is making criminals out of honest people." Case in point?
J