Where to begin?
I love my wife.
We have been married for 12 years and I feel like most of that time I have been trying to solve problems or complete tasks for her. It is never ending. In the early years I chalked this up to a picky wife with high standards or maybe just a woman's preference thing. None of this changed the way I felt about her. I could write a book with all of the incomplete gigantic problems/projects/tasks I have tackled in the hopes that she would be satisfied. You see, she was only diagnosed recently.
So now we have big problems. Arguments over her perpetual indecision get heated. Now she claims that I am mistreating her when I get angry about her making us late to EVERYTHING, or asking my opinion on something only to argue that very opinion. I have simply lost my patience. She takes absolutely zero responsibility for the effects this disorder is having on our marriage . No matter what the issue may be, she manipulates the conversation to make the problem my fault. The latest argument she said I (me) would be happier without her. RED FLAG.
We have three children that would all be devastated if we divorced. The oldest has already been diagnosed with adhd at 8. I cried today thinking about what a divorce would do to my little girl. It is not an option. I tried to talk to my wife about it in those terms. Now she is convinced I am only staying married to her for the children! That coupled with her never admitting fault, or admitting she is wrong is enfuriating and devastating all at the same time.
I have immersed myself in everything I can find via the Internet about coping with this situation. Unfortunately the summary of what I have found is she can't help it, so don't take it personally. WHAT!?
Am I doomed?
Is your wife being treated Rx and treatment/therapy?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
and, are you both in couples counseling? If not she should be treated and you both should go to couples therapy.
Re:Just Try
Submitted by Zapp10 on
No..you are not doomed.....but it sure feels like it.
Yes, she can't help it AS LONG AS she doesn't believe she has ADD.
How to not take it personally? THAT is on you to recognize and trust me, it is not done easily but amazingly once YOU understand how HER ADD effects her( and of course you) you can learn to sort it out.
ALL the knowledge in the world about ADD cannot help a marriage if BOTH parties are not 100% committed....and there is the rub. When the ADD partner doesn't take seriously getting help to understand how this effects the non ADD partner the result.....not encouraging.
You are not crazy, nuts, or any other thought that runs through your mind.....and neither is she.
The ADD needs to be a major priority to learn and embrace( both of you).......it will NOT go away.
I truly wish you the best.
Posting here can be a relief/release to the anxiety,frustration and stress that has become a part of your life....and you didn't see it coming.
You CAN do this and so CAN she........
Couples therapy brought forth
Submitted by JustTry on
Couples therapy brought forth the diagnosis a couple years ago. Then, her mother passed away unexpectedly, while my wife was pregnant . Needless to say everything has been a tornado of time management since then. Now that the baby is no longer breastfeeding she was able to start meds recently. Our communication is so poor sometimes that we decided that the best plan for us was for her to get one on one counseling for adhd and for me to get some one on one anger management counseling. We are also going to bring in a professional organizer to help her make some sense of her day to day, stay at home mother tasks. My hope is that a therapist can help her understand where she may be frustrating to others. I can hopefully gain some tools in anger management to stop being such a jerk when she pushes my buttons. It is never a physical confrontation, but she is not a crier. She paints a picture of me that is very insulting when we argue. She goes for the jugular. Currently she is non cooperative in the communication exercise we were given in couples counseling. Hopefully after we both get some one on one we can resume couples counseling. Meds seem to be helping a little with impulse comments/commands.
Now the challenge is to get her to actually find a counselor. Keep in mind we have three children 8 and under. She already has more than a person with adhd can handle.
YAY to therapy!!
Submitted by Zapp10 on
That is great to hear!! I hope she can find strength and courage to devote the time to this....it will pave the way to a happier, smoother life for her and those who love her.
I get the anger thing as it has a sneaky way of slinking into things before you REALIZE it. So many reactions should have been different on my part BUT I didn't know WHAT was going on and neither did my spouse. While he agrees he has it he is "trying" to manage it himself. Not by educating and learning and seeking help and guidance.....no ....he is gritting his teeth......simply trying NOT TO react or respond ...to anything. It is sad to see him this way....AND his focus is on ME....to the negative.
Please don't let yourself "disappear" as you and your wife move forward.It is sometimes too easy to let go of yourself for someone you love. I am hoping you both will come together and have a good life and marriage....in spite of ADD. It most definitely can BE DONE!!!
Please let us know how things progress and my very best to you BOTH!
It sounds to me like you are
Submitted by lisa84 on
It sounds to me like you are both on the right track, with the meds and counseling. I am a stay at home ADD wife and mother of 4, so I sympathize with your wife. But I also know we ADD women can be very stubborn and frustrating. I have started to realize over the last few years, how I have contributed to the problems in my marriage, but it's very difficult to get to the point of seeing, then admitting, then changing your behaviors. I think my husband almost had a stroke, the day I finally admitted that he wasn't the cause of all our problems. But it took a long time to get to that point and I got there on my own.
Unfortunately, I very strongly believe he also has ADHD and a personality disorder, things he doesn't see and isn't willing to confront or deal with. I suggested we both get separate counseling for our issues, but he doesn't think it's necessary. So, here we are separating after 12 yrs marriage.
If your wife is aware of her ADHD and the symptoms, is on meds and is getting counseling, things should get better. If she still seems unaware of her symptoms, are of you can find a way of letting her therapist know the symptoms you are seeing, since she probably isn't seeing the same things you are seeing.
How About One Therapist....JustTry
Submitted by kellyj on
That can see both of you separately.....and then together as needed? And you find that person and present her with this option? I'm saying this because this is what my T does and it works wonderfully. Having too many cooks in the kitchen....is not always the best approach? Therapists are people too. They each have their own ideas an approaches that don't always mix together exactly for saying the same thing. I can see a battle on the horizon....of which therapist is right and which one is wrong depending on the situation and taking into account..selective hearing?
My wife and I run into this alot. She'll say...."he said you are suppose to do this. I was there....I heard him."
It's best to leave that up to the horse....to speak from his/her own mouth and not get into a debate over what the horse said?
Having said that...your Big Red Flag....was doing exactly that. Putting words into your mouth...."she said I (me) would be happier without her. RED FLAG."
Unless you actually said those words....this is what she just did.
J
Good point J. I honestly
Submitted by JustTry on
Good point J. I honestly assumed one specialty would not compliment the other. I am not familiar with the realm of therapists. I am familiar with hospitals by profession so I guess I applied the logic of don't go to the ortho doc to get your tonsils removed.
My main concern about finding a therapist for her, is that she won't trust the situation. She certainly would not be ok with me telling the therapist to ask about or look for specific problems. She would consider that to be dishonest or manipulative. This came up with the last therapist. " he's a man he doesn't understand me" "you picked him out because you knew he would take your side". Those are the pleasant remarks
Trust and Choice...JustTry
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi JustTry,
It would be difficult to give you advise on your wife specifically., but you might try a combination of things that are still not leaving everything solely up to her. As you are probably well aware, getting her motivated and initiating things is part of having ADHD. So much so, Dr Russel Barlkley (ADHD specialist) is quoted as saying, it "intention deficit disorder"...not "attention deficit disorder". Which is why (we) say we'll do something, and then it never gets done. This...with all the sincerity in the world, is not lying on our part. In the strict definition or letter of the law, it is....but that's only because something else is getting in the way....in between saying we'll do it....and then it ever getting done. This has more to do with being near sighted about planning things for the future....and actually carrying them out to completion. It has nothing to do with the up front intnetion which is sincere and with all good intentions in saying it. It's just the actions don't line up with the words but it's not for the reasons you would do it or why you wouldn't get to it in the same way. You have to take why you would do something like that....completely out of the picture. It will lead you to the wrong conclusion about what you are seeing. This is such and important, and big obstacle to overcome in your own thinking but in respect to ADHD.....you have to. In that respect....you have no other choice.
And as far as she is concerned. She doesn't have a choice either. That's the point. The fewer choices she has, the more likely she dig in and be oppositional to you. It's a fine line to balance between taking over and doing things for her (bad idea ..with bad results)...and helping her and giving her a leg up. That's what you want to do.
Despite your own irritation and anger as you've said....being the bigger person in the face of someone who is fighting against you will only make it worse if you fight back. I know. From being on both sides of this myself. I'm having to do this with my non-ADHD wife who has her own dysfunction from a stormy childhood full of abuse to get over and realize the effect this has on others including me. She's oppositional to a far higher degree than I am now....so coming from the other direction now with her and her denial. I'm now having to play the same role as you are in right now and it's not easy. Being the bigger person with few benefits for you in the short run is hard one to resolve in your head to keep doing it.
For someone with Intentional Disorder as defined my Barkley.....they need a carrot or some kind of future payoff to go to in order to get motivated. A person in denial....will find every way to argue against you, in order to not do what you want. I'd listen to those arguments and not discount them just like she said ""you picked him out because you knew he would take your side".
Okay....give her what she wants there and don't fight her on that. So in respect to what I said...find a woman therapist for the both of you...and you just took that argument away from her. And do this....so on down the line until she has no arguments left. Give to get....but don't give up with the first argument she makes. The easier you make it for her by giving her the control or option to say no....eventually she'll see that you are working with her, instead of against her.
In this case, your actions will speak louder than words. I know this is hard to do when it's just the opposite thing you are actually experiencing with her...and the tendency is to not do what I just said on that premise alone. "Why should I do it....if she won't?" That's the argument that you might make, but it's one you need to address for yourself and not with her.
Being the bigger person, is for the sake of both of you together...not for the benefit of either one of you separately. If she can't see the forest from the trees and you can.....that's a strength you have that you can capitalize on. All a person with ADHD needs most of the time, is just a helping hand or leg up. Not to do things for her or try and force her into just because it makes you angry. This will only lead to frustration and failure and you will both lose in the end going that direction.
J
Not trying to be
Submitted by JustTry on
Not trying to be argumentative here, but being the bigger person is part of what has landed us in this mess. When I'm the bigger person she is happy and in her eyes POOF no more problems, no need for counseling, must have been your anger all along, ect. My mental health is just as important as hers, and I have shouldered all I can handle at this point. Maybe that changes in the future, but right now, as stated initially, I have lost my patience.
By hiring an organizer/personal assistant and new idea *regular babysitter days. I plan to systematically remove a large portion of her tasks so that she can execute some of these intentions. She truly does want to get help, and I believe her. Honesty has really never been a concern of mine.
Denial
Submitted by kellyj on
Preaching to the choir here JustTry. There has to be some kind of consequence to her or she'll never find the need or want to get any help. You can't make a person want to do what they don't want to do. I hear you. And no, you aren't being argumentative....it's just the resentment and anger that you are experiencing from this is what I'm actually looking for alternatives on your behalf not so much hers. You may find that odd coming from the person with ADHD.....but in respect to battling up against denial in my wife for a different reason that runs really deep with me....I coming from the same place with the same frustration and anger since my wife has pretty much said the same thing and doesn't want help or want to look at what she doesn't want to look at. All I can say is....the more you do for her like this....the less likely she'll ever have any consequence for not going to seek help and do this for herself...on her own.
It's a Catch 22 situation your in for sure. But realize this.....ADHD is the most changeable or correctable mental health disorder in the book. She cannot use that as an excuse even if she tries. All of this is about denial....not her potential or capability to do something about it.
And in the same way I see my wife at times...."I don't want to"....doesn't really cut it for me? You're a lot more accepting than I am. But on the same token in exactly what you said... "My mental health is just as important as hers, and I have shouldered all I can handle at this point. Maybe that changes in the future, but right now, as stated initially, I have lost my patience."
For the interim time....you know the score. In the long run on your behalf. That anger won't go away unless what ever you're doing....is by your choice and not having to do it out of exasperation, anger and resentment. That won't go away...unless you find a different way in the future.
For your benefit I'm saying this not hers. My patience with my wife's denial....is in short supply right now but I kind of put my foot down and gave her an ultimatum. Without any consequences....she was not going to change. After the fact...she's going to see our T by herself now and it seems to have made a noticable difference.
As I'm seeing this and feel pretty strongly now after beating my head against that denial wall long enough...."everyone's got to pay the man sometime. Sooner...if not later." Good luck with that....I hope you can find a way to get her into Therapy.
J
"But realize this...."
Submitted by Delphine on
"But realize this.....ADHD is the most changeable or correctable mental health disorder in the book."
Is it really? Then why do you think so few ADHD are able to change/correct? Denial again?
My son does seem to have awareness of this. When we were chatting together I said to him that I used to get frustrated with him when he was small...when I didn't know he had ADHD.
He replied, "You can get frustrated with it even when you do know." I want him to go to an ADHD coach...but will wait to mention this until we are together in person again. Hopefully soon.
Therapy is probably essential for this, no? Meds (which son is taking) aren't enough.
Delphine
Effort....and the Willingness to Change
Submitted by kellyj on
"But realize this.....ADHD is the most changeable or correctable mental health disorder in the book."
This was me paraphrasing my T, what I've read, and taken in context from what Melissa mentioned in her seminar course. The key element is effort and willingness to do it. I can verify this myself....it takes a real dedicated effort with some determination behind it and is not an easy thing to do. But it can be done Delphine. You can't NOT have ADHD. It's there fore ever. What's required is re-training yourself and breaking old habits...and then forming new ones. That's the work and effort right there. This then becomes a part of your daily life with that conscious effort and mindfulness...and learning the skills required to do this.
And yes. Denial does stands in the way of that until a person comes to the full realization of the problem themselves....instead of turning away from it and not wanting to look at it. I think.....the need has to be there first. It's the mother of invention as the saying goes. In my own stubbornness....I had to try everything first, before I came to the realize there were things where trying harder... were never going to make up for that difference. I did manage to resolve a number of my symptoms by myself without knowing I had ADHD just from my desire to stop them and find a way around them. I managed to find a number of adaptive strategies that did work in order to compensate. The problem with those if you are unaware of the ADHD itself....is the effect those have on others by themselves. I think with some areas of having ADHD....a person automatically adopts or adjusts to these things....and what it actually effecting others, is not the symptom itself....but in the managing of the symptom using these adaptive strategies that cause many of the problems with others in relationships.
He replied, "You can get frustrated with it even when you do know." I can't be sure of course, but reading into what your son said....I suspect this is exactly what is so frustrating even when you know or are aware. You might be aware of a problem (or people point it out to you)....then to find that the problem is not the underlying symptom itself.....but in the way you found to manage it that might work for you.....but not so much for everyone else around you. Now what do you do? I can feel your sons frustration in his comment.
Interrupting people when I talked with them is a god example of one that I did by myself, for myself successfully. After just watching Dr Barkley video....I can explain this better using his information. As he said this..."there has to be some consequence or it won't ever happen." Further explaining..."it's like being near sighted, without the ability to see beyond what's right in front of your face. Seeing then become necessary first before you can do anything about it" (paraphrasing).
So with interrupting people....you're getting direct feedback from others in real time right when it happens. They might recoil, make an annoyed expression on their face or just out and out, call you out on it right then and there. It's much easier to see this, and then feel the consequences for you actions right when it happens. I have to this, because it really is the truth.....but this is not that much different in terms of training your dog in that respect. The time delay....in between the offense and the correction is critically important. If too much time goes by (as with dogs a mere few seconds)....any correction after the fact is worthless and will not be connected to the action itself. With interrupting people...you get that instantaneous feedback and then feel the embarrassment right when it happens. Interrupting others, then becomes easy to see, which you can immediately connect with a need to change that behavior.
Action + consequences= feeling the repercussions
The problem with that kind aversion training approach however...is that employs negative feedback in order for it to work. Even with dog training they have found....that this is not the best form of training due to the emotional negative effect this has on the dog itself. People...are that much more aware of this kind of effect than dogs are I can attest to that much for sure! lol
And that problem goes right back to is it the symptom that the person is unaware of or in denial of? Or is it the managing of the symptom that is causing the annoyances from others?
Good example for me. I use to put all my important messages, phone number, to do activities etc.....all on one of those desk top paper writing pads. (the big ones) I would just fill one up and then turn the page when it was full with all those hand written notes and important information in lue of any kind of filing system. If it was really important....the side of my refrigerator was used for all the more immediate reminders that I could see at a glance every time I walked by it. I also had sticky notes all over my desk top arranged in ways that I could see and find things easily.
It took me literally years to developed this everything out in front of me approach since I needed to see it all laid out in front of me all at one time or it didn't work. As long as I can see out...in front of me, and not inside a drawer, inside a notebook, or inside a computer....I found this worked extremely well for me and I rarely had problems keeping track of things this way when I lived alone. No problem.
Suddenly....enters a room mate, live in partner....who has issues with clutter or things of this nature. Wooosh.....years of developing this system just went right out the window or into the garbage can. This is the equivalent to re-arranging the furniture for a blind person in their home. Not just kind of like it......exactly like it. Now that person is instantly lost....and can't keep track of anything anymore over night.
What's the problem here? Is it the actual symptom itself ie: the inability to see things unless they are right out in plain sight all the time in order to keep track of things?
Or is it the method used in order to compensate for this inability?
As I said....this method worked perfectly for me. I can say....nearly flawlessly to the point that I could keep track of everything very well and not miss appointments or any important event or duty in my life. "This started in my first year of college and continued from there without ever changing from it because it worked. Done deal for me.
But now.....a new person comes in and doesn't like the look of this and has an adverse reaction to it. From the ADHD person who's already fixed the problem for themselves......who's the problem here? You ...or them?
And if the consequence you now face comes down to a conflict with this other person and a threat of them leaving, move out or you change....and you now have to somehow find and develop a completely new system to replace the old one that took you years to develop for a very good reason (the actual underlying ADHD symptom)....you discover when you try a different method as might be recommended as an acceptable one to the other person.....you try it....and it doesn't work. What works for them...does not work for you....but they don't have ADHD and can't understand the need to have things out where you can see them at a glance at all times to compensate for this short sighted ability or inability to "see things". It's why it doesn't work....but you don't know that...and can't explain it to the other person. And the other person just looks at you or says.."I don't see what the problem is here? What the big deal.....everyone else does it this way and it's not a problem for them?"
And there in....lies the problem. The inability to "see" and the "consequences"....and finding yourself in a situation that you have no idea now...how to fix or correct yet your are confronted with a time line to come up with a new system literally over night? It worked fine when you were alone and could do it in the way that it worked for you very well. But with no other options available to you, since how other people want you to do things doesn't work (for very legitimate reasons due directly to ADHD)
Delphine. What I just described actually happened with my wife and I. My wife moved in....and in one fell swoop over night.....erased years of filing and organizing all my important data that my daily life depended on.....and removed everything from the refrigerator (my most critically important current reminders) , cleaned off my desk, took down all my sticky notes that I had in other places around the house...and scrambled them all everything together in a big pile in a couple of boxes without telling me ahead of time. And then put them inside a couple of drawers an inside a cabinet so she wouldn't have to look at it anymore. 3 years later....I'm still trying find some of those things and have yet to uncover where she put them. This was a cataclysmic event in my life and caused a chain reaction that I'm still feeling the repercussions of and that has caused me to miss numerous time deadlines and missed appointments including even putting my medication prescription somewhere that I never was able to find. This caused me to have to go without my Adderall for nearly 5 days, which completely disrupted my ability to manage my physical and mental state for over two weeks of swinging and mood changes from the aftermath of just this one event.
The overall disruption and chaos this created in my ability to function from this one event (overnight in one day) that she had no idea what she was doing....I am still feeling the consequences of and still trying to find a different way around this problem 3 years later and have yet to find a better replacement for the one that worked perfectly for me for over 30 years and took years to get dialed in and working perfectly before that....vanished over night with not other means available to me.
Her need not to see things out.....over rode and was justified by her inability to understand what she did and why this was so devastating to my daily functioning in life.
So from that day moving forward....all she's seen or knows is what happened after she did that and all the missed appointments and chaos and disruption from just this one action on her part. And now there's a time crunch involved as well. Now I had to find a way to fix this problem....right now...like tomorrow....because of the problems this has created for both of us and the parts that effect her the most.
And to this very day....she either refuses or is unwilling to compromise or understand...what she did...or how she has anything to do with this what so ever. She will not admit she did anything wrong and refuses to take any responsibility what so ever for creating this situation and only sees the aftermath and the problems this caused which she attributes directly to me. She cannot see anything wrong with what she did and refuses to take any credit at all. Period.
Yet....for 30 years....I managed this nearly flawlessly as I said. My wife moved in.... and within the first week together....she erased over 30 years of adapted strategies overnight and left me without any way to manage my ADHD....over night in one day. Nothing has been the same ever since ......and the amount of failures and missed things of this nature....sky rocketed exponentially as a direct effect from her action.
So now....what's the problem here and what or who's to blame for what happened in just one day and one event like this?
The only thing I know from my side of this....is the utter disruption to my life over night...the associated problems and fall out....and my wife's refusal to understand or take any responsibility for what she did. And then the anger on her part directed at me from her from the fallout and chaos this has caused. Over night just in one day at the beginning of our relationship.
And to this very day.....what I just said here....she refuses to listen to or understand and I've never even been able to explain this in it's entirely as I just have here before she gets upset, lashes out....and blames everything on me.
In respect to this one event. I'm not or wan't angry with her for what she didn't know. What I'm still angry at to this very day....is her refusal and unwillingness to understand the ramifications of her actions.....take any responsibility for them....and feels not need to change her course of action any time she feels the need without conferring with me or asking me first as if none of this has any thng to do with her and holds that she has not done anything wrong what so ever.
And since she see's that she has not done anything wrong what so ever. She is completely unwilling to talk about it ever. She refuses to connect what she did....to what is happening. No cause and effect ability what so ever and no changes in her behavior which is just more of the same moving forward in time.
As I see this.....it is a complete unwillingness to work with me on the problem 100%. Which puts the fault on my side of the equation at 100%....100% of the time.
This is the only thing that I'm angry with in my wife and nothing more. I can forgive her for anything she's done in the past. I cannot forgive her for an unwillingness to be my partner and work together on the problems for the future. This is the one thing that is totally unacceptable. That isn't being a partner. That's just doing what ever it is she wants completely unilaterally if it causes her any discomfort or stress what so ever.
That's not working with me. That's working directly against me and sabotaging me with no regard for the problems this causes me and pretty much has a.....I don't care if it does attitude along with it.
From my perspective.....she appears to be completely self serving and indifferent. As I feel it....I have a legitimate right to be angry. Refusal to learn, listen or accept responsibility on my wife's part is the real problem I see here not my ADHD symptoms.
So Delphine.....I know what you and your son are (or have) gone through it quite a bit different that this last scenario I just described. But if you can take from it and stand back and see the interaction and the cause and effect involved...it might help give you a better idea of the approach and the difficulties in why something that might not appear so obvious to you...is having a legitimate negative effect on your son and he has yet to find a better way or solution to it on his own with no other way around it. Even if he is aware of the problem or that it exists exactly as I am now with this one scenario with my wife?
The question then becomes....how do you explain something in a way that you can make sense of so others can understand?
What I really see as the problem with my wife more often that not....is her denial not mine. Her unwillingness to see something that she doesn't want to see or does not fit into the scheme of the way she wants things to be....is the only real resistance here to finding a good solution or compromise.
As I see this coming from my perspective. I believe I see the picture in it's entirety pretty clearly considering both sides. I would be willing to discuss this simply and easily with her any day she wants to actually have a real conversation about this in the same way I am presenting to you here. Any day, any time. All she would need to do is ask and I'm there. No problem. I am armed with enough accurate information to do so and do so without a fight or confrontation. The only problem I have....comes from a person on the other side who refuses to listen.
J
"My wife moved in....and in
Submitted by Delphine on
"My wife moved in....and in one fell swoop over night.....erased years of filing and organizing all my important data that my daily life depended on.....and removed everything from the refrigerator (my most critically important current reminders) , cleaned off my desk, took down all my sticky notes that I had in other places around the house...and scrambled them all everything together in a big pile in a couple of boxes without telling me ahead of time. And then put them inside a couple of drawers an inside a cabinet so she wouldn't have to look at it anymore. 3 years later....I'm still trying find some of those things and have yet to uncover where she put them. This was a cataclysmic event in my life and caused a chain reaction that I'm still feeling the repercussions of and that has caused me to miss numerous time deadlines and missed appointments including even putting my medication prescription somewhere that I never was able to find. This caused me to have to go without my Adderall for nearly 5 days, which completely disrupted my ability to manage my physical and mental state for over two weeks of swinging and mood changes from the aftermath of just this one event."
Yes, J, I can imagine how devastating that was to your carefully constructed way of dealing with your ADHD.
But what I'm wondering is, why you didn't explain this to your wife before you moved in together? Shouldn't you have carefully prepared her ahead of time?
Like the example you gave of the blind person whose navigation is disrupted by rearranging the furniture. Now you would think that most people would understand this on their own, without needing it explained...but from my own experience with having a disability...most people are quite limited in their understanding and ability to put themselves in the other's shoes, to perceive the world from a perspective different from their own.
So were you proactive with this? Did you make the attempt to help your wife understand your way of managing ADHD before marriage and cohabiting? If you did, and she just completely disregarded that...whew is all I can say. If you didn't try to prepare her...not to be harsh, but don't you have some responsibility for what transpired?
Just some thoughts...
Delphine
The Crux of the Problem ...Delphine
Submitted by kellyj on
I can't see inside my wife's mind. I don't know what she was thinking. I do know...that I explained in great detail my ADHD and the challenges I face with having it. Having said that...I could not predict what she was going to do ahead of time. She did many things at first that did not register with anything that I have ever experienced before in my past relationships. She fundamentally.....took over before I had a chance to say anything. This is a real problem for us and me especially. It's taken me quite a while to figure this out (for her) because she cannot explain herself and her actions to me. All she does, is get defensive and upset and then cuts me off anytime I go near this topic.
I can sum this up in a sentence. She is controlling, and she has an intense compulsion to control her environment with an obsessive quality to it. In other words....she is compelled with little or no control of it...and then rationalizes as her only means to explain it. Actually, her first line of defense is to throw it back onto you: blaming, it's because of you I have to do this, I had to do this or you wouldn't do it etc.....None of which is true. This started almost immediately before I had a chance to do anything and none of what she did was agreed upon ahead of time. She just did it....and then after the fact....excused herself with any number of defense mechanisms you can name.
And example. I had spent a great deal of time (several hours) in setting up an area in our kitchen before she had moved in with personal memoribilia; pictures and artifacts, books...to compliment the decor on some shelfs. I walk in one day....and all those things are gone except for the ones she liked. Gone. Everything else ended up in a box somewhere. Without asking. Without conferring. Without even considering that maybe.....I liked it that way. Which I did. It was personal and I spent hours like I said....arranging and collecting these things and had them exactly the way I liked it. I would have been completely willing to talk about it with her and find out the particulars in what she would like to see there. After the fact....all you can do is say " hey....I see you changed this. Why didn't you asked me first or tell me at least....what was the reason you did this....and ....would you mind talking to me first before you do so we can discuss this together?"
I even returned some the things to where they were before....and the next thing you know....they're gone again? Like WTF? But each time I tried talking about this with her....she got defensive and the conversation went no where. I started noticing something that...as an Artist...I hate more than anything. Symmetry.
Symmetry is....when used in conjunction with asymmetrical arrangement creates tension. Tension with intention...to create a sense of movement which draws the viewers eye in the direction you want them to go. The overall effect is to induce a feeling and you can control that feeling by how you arrange things.
Symmetry....by itself....is sterile and lifeless. It's dead and boring and completely contrived and unnatural. Nothing in nature has absolute symmetry...yet...there is always a pattern whether it be a tree or a plant or anything in nature. It's never random....but it's also never perfectly symmetrical.
In the work I do....I capitalize on the natural state of asymmetry with a definite pattern. If you can recognize the pattern...and recreate it in your art....your piece with take on an organic feeling while still retaining a more natural asymmetrical random shape. If you draw a tree...and just randomly put branches on it scattered around any where there's a negative space ....your tree with look off and it won't look natural. Like kids draw if you will...kind of abstract and Cartoonish. If you study how trees and plants grow....there is always a specific pattern in dividing and re-deviding and is not random at all but still not symmetrical. This is the way of all organic things grow. The key in learning how to train your eye to see this...is to look at the negative space first....instead of the positive space. That's how you can immediately tell if something not right in your piece.
And as it is.....I have a very developed artistic eye for such things. I can look at something in an instant...and tell if something not quite right in a just a glance. I notice this where ever I go and it's first thing I notice. Profile, proportion, contour and symmetry. Those are the key components and used in a mix or variation to create movement, tension and a natural feel. This is what I do for a living...a see it in everything everywhere I go....instantly.
So....my wife moved in...and within a week....everything is symmetrical. No matter where I look....she's evened everything out with nice perfect spaces in between each thing. All even. All in perfect rows. All evenly spaced. With perfect spaces in between everything. And all the hours of creating any feeling in the living space that I meticulously arranged is now dead, sterile and lifeless. That includes all my carefully arranged data and reminders which were all strategically placed by where I needed them to be. She did this seemingly....the second she walked in the door without saying anything to me.
Here's one explanation...that seems to fit perfectly to what I saw and here do on a regular basis and have become quite aware of what I am seeing. Some people with OCD have obsessions surrounding the way objects are arranged. These people may feel very uncomfortable when confronted with situations where objects are misaligned or in disarray. On a related note, some people may be made uncomfortable when something does not appear perfect. They may not be able to tolerate having written something where the letters may be shaped imperfectly. The corresponding compulsions would be ordering and arranging or compulsive corrections. When movies attempt to portray OCD, they often throw in seemingly random behaviors. But it is important for outsiders to remember that even if the OCDer is doing something that appears random, or just crazy, that is never the case. There is always some base reason, even if it seems illogical or magical.
What my wife did made no sense to me. It was completely illogical and she could not explain it. She has never been able to explain to me or give me goo reason for the things she does and this is exactly why I believe. Before we ever went to our T.,...I kept repeating to her...."your day of reckoning is coming unless you can explain yourself and your actions to me." I almost through right back out the door and told her to never return unless she coughs up with some reasonable explanation for this behavior. This did nothing...and did nothing but make her more defensive and attacking me right back in return. No matter what I said....it got thrown right back in my face and didn't stop her for a second in just taking over without a word said before she'd do these things. Not once...has she apologized or acknowledged the difficulties this has created for me.
So no....I'm not responsible for my wife's anxiety and her OCD behaviors. You'd be preaching to the choir here if that were the case. I recognized this immediately...since everything started to become symmetrical and that's something that I cannot...not see. In fact....I see it immediately like I said and I have an extremely well developed eye and sense for symmetry. I recognize it....in a heart beat and I personally hate it in designing anything. It's one my biggest pet peeves and a designer. I could go as far as saying...my wife and I have been battling over symmetry since she first walked in the door. this is something.... I let go of...along time ago. It's not worth fighting over and not really that big a deal for me to get over.
Getting over the disruption to my life because of her OCD is a compete different issue. When someone uses your weakness's against you in order to excuse their own dysfunction.... I don't know about you...but I call that hitting below the belt.
And of course....she is in denial of her OCD which is why this what this is all about anyway. I can easily understand and even accept her OCD....I can't really respect someone who says there;s nothing wrong with them...while I'm staring at the results every where I look. And if there's one gift that I was born with that is my strongest suit of all. Is an eye for these things and there's no way that I wrong here. I can tell in an instant....what she's doing and why she behaves the wat she does. All I have to do is look at what it looks like now...compared to the way I had it which was done with a specific intention, by design and for the very purpose that she erased immediately....to take away the feeling...that I spent hours in creating.
Now the feeling is gone and the environment is sterile and lifeless...along with all my filing system. Dead and gone. Everything is in neat perfect symmetrical rows with even spaces...perfectly lined up where ever you look. Like looking at the grocery store shelves...where everything is perfectly lined up in perfect rows and everything looks the same. Perfectly centered. Perfectly ordered. Perfect. It's so obvious....it hurts!! lol I was afraid she was going to order plastic to go over the lamp shades and furniture and thankfully....that never happened. I would have had a thing or two to say about that. Like....NO WAY!! What more can I say?
J
Untraining OCD Through Direct Exposure
Submitted by kellyj on
Delphine,
I also wanted to say...since I have no idea what I'm doing or how to get someone past their obsession. I picked a method and the only one I knew how to do. Direct immersion exposure. I know where they will do this with people who go into treatment sometimes...by exposing them to what ever they are afraid of....spiders, airplanes, dentists etc...
In those cases however....the person is going to get help. It's a different story when you are trying to do this covertly without them knowing this is what you are doing. And since I didn't know what I was doing....I just did this anyway to see if it worked. The results are those episodes that my wife has where she goes off the deep end and threatens to leave. I've found as time goes on....these episode get fewer and further between so I think it's working.
However!!!! I have to grin and bear it and white knuckle through it when all is said and done. She also spends a lot of time resisting me...and has relapse randomly that are hard to predict. In lue of her not admitting things and is still in denial. This is the best I've come up with the best I can do instead of doing nothing, and feeling out or control myself. I'd rather do this....than the alternative which is nothing. At least I can see a chnage happening slowly....and monitor the progress and it seems to be working slowly over time.
The other thing I've done which goes right along with what I'm trying to do for myself. Is to be more mindful....and pay attention to her specific triggers and stay away from those as much as I can.
What I don't do anymore....is succumb to her episodic moments when she's having an attack and wants things done...right now...to alleviate her anxiety. This is what...I refuse to do and the results are her episodes. This all appears quite obvious to me at this point in time. And each time it happens....I hold my mud and won't budge an inch and make her live with what she cannot stand. Exposure seems to working in the way I'm approaching it. Give or take. I have no idea what I'm doing really? lol
J
Incompatible?
Submitted by Delphine on
I just have to wonder J how and why you got together with this woman with whom you apparently are so incompatible?
I know why I was with my son's father (who had undiagnosed ADHD at the time). In hindsight, my mom was ADHD, also undiagnosed, and she of course was my first love in life. We are drawn, unconsciously, to repeat (and hopefully heal) the past through our current involvements. It rarely works.
Maybe you could explore your own reasons for being with your wife. Might have something to do with your dad, who from what you've shared, was disruptive and kept you off balance in a different way.
No, you're not responsible for your wife's issues, but you are responsible for your choice to be with her. Which you are free to unchoose, of course, if you really want to...
Delphine
I've Done Exactly What You've Said...
Submitted by kellyj on
before. And know what that felt like. There is a qualitative attraction...that is hard to describe. Almost...a compulsion you might say. Infatuation, ecstasy..romantic love. Along with the hyperfocus...it only proved to be exactly what you said. It had a component in there that was my father for a similar reason. And not a good one I might add.
When I met my wife....none of that existed. In fact....there were certain aspects to her....that were not attractive at all. Once I began to know her better....the attraction grew in steady increments and I was looking for something else....instead of that immediately kind of compelling thing that drew me to other women in the past. When I was younger...I would have never picked my wife as she was. My criteria was different I learned to hard way that those things are not what is most important after all.
I really believe at this point....the things that make us most incompatible....are the very things that we both share and are too much alike...not the other way around. What we've got...are those competing sensitivities which means....she may be OCD...but I have those components too. I had my time with that and am familiar with it myself. What they say.....if you can't live with yourself? I'm no walk in the park you know...ADHD and all! lol I can't fault her for the very things I recognize in myself. If I had been with someone who did this for me and hung in there for me....I would have followed them to the ends of the earth and loved them even more for doing it. Time will tell. I'm following my gut...instead of my romantic heart. My romantic ( puppy Love Heart) is what got me in trouble before. That's not what real Love is all about. That initial infatuation thing will fade and what is left might be Love and it might not be. Real Love grows and keeps growing....it doesn't fade or go away at the first sign of trouble. Even the second sign. Even the third sign!! lol
All I know...is I'm growing closer not further away as time goes on despite our conflicts. I have to always keep in mind....that as much as my wife may not be a walk in the park always. I'm not different and that's Okay with me. I've been there and I know. I'm not the person I was before once I understood what the problem was. I can see the qualities in my wife that are most important to me....even if she's a pain in ass and I've got to fight through this denial to get to those things. I see the process and the path to get there and the only thing that is going to stop us together....is if she gives up before she breaks through that wall her self. I know for myself....once that happened. Things changed dramatically and the better parts of me came through with it and left the past behind me. If that weren't true now.....I wouldn't be with my wife and would have kept repeating the past mistakes instead. Real life and real Love is something that you build together.
It's not suppose to be good...all the time. In fact....who ever said everyday is suppose to be a good day? Actually...who said it's suppose to be good all day long to have it be a good day?
It's this denial thing that's really getting in the way. If there is any enemy or thing that is standing in the way....it's her denial and that's it. It's the only wall I can see all things considered. As far as I'm seeing it....either she does or she doesn't....but I'm not waiting around for her to do it for herself. There's only room for two in this relationship and her denial makes three....that's one too many as far as I'm concerned. Where do you think all that perfectionism and OCD and unrealistic expectations are coming from anyway? She's answering to her mom who's still in there pulling those strings. That's what all that perfectionism and having to have things perfect is all about. Her mom pulled a number on her and she's gotta go! Time to grow up and be her own person. That's the one I'm in Love with. Her Mom....ehhhh....not so much! lol
I know all of this from having the same issues myself. I have to watch myself all the time...to make sure I'm answering to myself and no one else. I can see the same thing happening with my wife...she's just still not aware of it. We are more alike in this way....than we are different.
To be honest with you....if my wife is at all like any of my family members....it's from the thing that drove me crazy with my mother not my father. It's the very thing that repelled me at first for the same reason it did with my mother. It drove me crazy! But that's the only part that is similar and the only part where I have my own sensitivities too. Those are my sensitivities and issues...not my wife's problem. If anything.. along with those qualities that I hated about my mother (obsessive qualities)...she also shares a lot of the good ones too. My mother...had a heart of gold and that's what I see in my wife as well. Along with the pain in the ass parts. No one is perfect you know? lol
J
J
Here's Hoping
Submitted by Delphine on
So your wife has characteristics of both your mother and your father--and more of your mother. Yes, there's the draw. And yes, I can see how she is still playing out those old tapes from her mother's domination.
And...right...no one is perfect. You know, there was a couple my parents were close friends with...and my dad said once that he and the male half of that couple liked to hang out and share stories about their crazy wives. "This creates a bond between us," he said with his characteristic deadpan humor. He said at another time that their marriage had never been a good one, and the husband played around some. Well, the couple in question passed away recently...first the husband, and then shortly after, his wife. They had apparently worked through their issues and at the time of their passing they had been married for 66 years. There was a very touching photo of them walking hand in hand together.
I wish the same for you, J. Hope your wife comes around...hope she's able to break through the wall of denial.
Delphine
Flexability Theory
Submitted by kellyj on
I appreciate your well wishes Delphine. It sounds like you have been giving a lot of thought to your own past and parents and how that plays out with you too. I have some personal theories about this as well. I've gone back and retested myself (again) for the umteenth time and taking the briggs meyers personality tests. My recent post on this has only proved I have to go back and change one that came up the last time to something just slightly different.
What I found, on any given day....those results are going to be slightly different that comes down to a choice of two. I find this interesting since the two choices reflect the qualities of either my own mother and father which only says to me the obvious. Both are in there somewhere flavoring how I see myself. How can that not be? But at the same time mostly....I'm pretty sure about who I am and what type I am without much reservation.
You might try this for fun to see how that plays out for yourself. Instead of taking the test first....pick the one that most describes you and then take the test to see the results in comparison. This is an interesting approach that I have yet hear anyone do before but it was very telling to me. The results only showed a small difference and the difference seems to be those qualities in my parents? Interesting huh? I think the margin of error in those tests depends greatly on how well you know yourself and who you are. If you are unsure...and have to spend a lot of time thinking about your answers....the results will reflect your inability to know those parts about yourself that you are most unsure about. How I'm seeing this....doing those tests the way I said....can be a really good indicator of where you need to look (mostly) for things that might stand some work if they don't line up with how you see yourself and who you want to be vs. who you are right now?
If you're stuck....or have only/always been one way most of your life....it may only mean you having a very strong and stable personality. Some people are just that way and there is nothing wrong with that. A black and white thinker like my wife....would immediately jump to the conclusion that if you are not strong and stable.....you are weak and unstable. That's what black and white thinking is....either/ or....positive or negative.
Jumping to these kind of conclusions I think.....is a case for black and white thinking by definition. A person like this may seem like they are very sure of themselves and very sure of what they think....but with only two choices to choose from....it's easy to make quick decisions and be decisive yet.....with a huge margin for error in their thinking. And somewhat rigid or unbending and inflexible. In those terms....if I'm not bad.....then I have to be good. Or vise versa. And that it is that. So it is written...so it shall be done! lol
And I can hear that kind of thinking in your father too...as he told the story of the couple that he knew. On one hand....we had this good bond together in relating stories of our crazy wives(good). On the other hand...the man fooled around.(bad) But yet...they still stayed together and worked it all out and apparently (as you said)...had found a way to Love each other.
As I see this.....the "judge" is doing all the talking here. The "judge" is the one who makes those determination in our heads and for some...this is a strong characteristic. Any time you are in a court room....there has to be a winner and a loser and there has to be an adversarial competition and relationship going on with one clear cut decision made at the end. Always. The "judges" decision....is either...black...or white...and the "judges" decision is irrefutable.
As I see this....there is a need for judges in this world or conflicts between people would never get resolved. Someone with a strong opinion that is stable and unbending is not always a bad thing. But it's not always a good thing either. When we end up in court and put our fate in the hands of the law....someone else is making those decisions for us and the letter of the law...does not account for those times when real life does not fit neatly into one category or another. It's up to the judge to interpret the law...in order to make a decision. The Law.....then becomes imperative...for the basis of all decision making, and personal opinion has very little to do with it. Or does it? Judges are people too you know. You can't take the person out of there and judges are not robots either.
If I had to pick one thing in common, with both my parents and my wife that drives me personally crazy? Is this kind of black and white thinking. And without going too far a field here.....religion, societal constructs and laws or rules that govern our lives are the very thing that create this kind of thinking in the first place. As I see it....black and white thinking is a problem if it dominates your thinking and you cannot use other means to make decisions....namely....your feelings and emotions and your intuition.
Or even worse in my mind....using black and white emotional thinking for making your decision making process alone. This would be both my mother and my wife. Fear driven emotional thinking in black and white terms. Yikes!!!
On the other hand....as was with my father. Black and white judgmental thinking based solely on logic and and how that serves ME.
This drives me absolutely through the roof!!! As I see things from my perspective (and an artist even). There is no such thing as black and white any where in the Universe. Before you can see colors. You have to have light first.
Black....only exists, in the absence of light.
And pure white light....is a combination of all the light spectrums combined into one and is the result of the highest temperatures that you can heat any substance that exists in the Universe. The Sun...for example....is white hot pure white light.
Which means.....everything in between light and absence of light.....are just varying shads of grey in the absence of any other pigment or color. And as we all know....the world is almost predominantly.....pigmented and full of color and mostly not just shades of grey. If that were the case....we would be living in a Black and White world in what we see? And there is no arguing....that what we see everywhere we look....is not black and white including all the people in it.
So where does black and white thinking come from? It comes from the judge inside our heads. If the "judge" is doing all of our thinking for us....the world is a stark lifeless shadowy place without color and the only two choices you have come down to two for everything. This is my imaginary vision of what the inside of the mind of a judging person would look like. Stark. bleak, lifeless and without color. Like living on the Moon without life: Dark ,Lonely, Dismal and Hopeless. From this kind of place....I can see why depression and negatively would be a strong tendency for someone who only thinks from this point of view?
Taken from the description of Judging and Perceiving people on the two personality types
Judging
Judgers approach life in a structured way, creating plans and organizing their world to achieve their goals and desired results in a predictable way.
They get their sense of control by taking charge of their environment and making choices early.
They are self-disciplined and decisive, and seek closure in decisions. When they ask for things they are specific and expect others to do as they say. They enjoy being experts.
At work, they decide quickly and clearly and work to get the job done.
Perceivers may see them as rigid and opinionated.
Perceiving
Perceivers perceive structure as being more limiting than enabling. They prefer to keep their choices open so they can cope with many problems that the know life will put in their way.
They get their sense of control by keeping their options open and making choices only when they are necessary.
They are generally curious and like to expand their knowledge, which they will freely acknowledge as being incomplete. They are tolerant of other people's differences and will adapt to fit into whatever the situation requires.
At work, they tend to avoid or put off decisions and like most the exploration of problems and situations.
Judgers may see them as aimless drifters.
From the eyes, ears, heart, vision and combined intuition of a Perceiver myself, the question I might ask a Judger...despite all the positive qualities and strengths that come with being that way? Are you Happy?
And I'd have to ask this from what I've already said about living in a black and white world.....I can't see how that could even be possible...since it does not fit into the world or universe as we know it? As far as I can see or tell....Black and White.....is just an illusion since the world we live in is full of color no matter where you look.
And since I don't judge ...."judgers." I have to say that for all you "judgers" out there since....you would automatically think I'm judging since...that's how you automatically see everything.
I know this from living with my wife. I have to qualify everything to make sure I eliminate the black and white possibilities before I say anything to her..because she automatically goes there, hears it and interprets everything through the judger's lens and tries to apply the only two choices in existence to everything. Black...white....good.....bad.....right....wrong. And this drives her crazy!! If she can't judge...she starts to come unglued! lol
What I do know for sure without having to look very hard at my wife almost any day of the week.....is she appears Dark ,Lonely, Dismal and Hopeless and not Happy.....most of the time. This troubles me greatly and I want her to be Happy. I'm Happy more often than not most everywhere I go. The only thing that makes me unhappy...is when someone is trying to control me. This is a paradox it would seem?
As I see this....I have a place in my wife's life if she will only allow it to happen. If she can let go of all that control....the judging...the black and white thinking...and the prison this creates for her. I think she could be a happier person and I'm just the one to bring that into her life if she'll let me. That's her choice of course. The one thing I won't do with absolute certainty....is join her in that prison. She has only one of two options here with me.....and she will need to decide that for herself. Happy....or unhappy. This is an easy choice for me to make. That's assuming...from everything I've witnessed in people throughout my lifetime of experience...and using my well earned intuition.....that I'm right. In this one case.....I feel very strongly that I am.
Regardless of how I get her there or the struggles and fighting me on this. No matter what argument you might make as a judger to be this way .....I cannot believe a judger can be truly happy being stuck in the trap of only being a judger..... without the ability to be more of a perceiver and learning to be another way. I cannot believe that living in a dark and lifeless world despite all the others things that being this way might bring you....is ever going to make you truly Happy?
And why are we here anyway? To be miserable? To serve something or to serve others at our own expense? I don't think so. Yet....this is what I saw in my father and mother...who were both...black and white thinkers and judgers. One from emotional side...and one from logical side. .As I saw them.....they both died unhappy people despite everything they had. 'They were both serving a different master here....instead of serving their own happiness as their first priority to themselves above all else. This isn't being selfish as far as I'm concerned. It's mandatory if you are going to be any good to anyone else in service of them and what they want from you. That is....to be Happy...and to be with a Happy person.
Who want's to be.... or would choose to be with an unhappy person? No one I know of? Being with an unhappy person....only brings you down to their level and no one I know would choose that as a choice in their life?
And from a judging perspective....the reverse has to be true if you are that unhappy person now? I think being Happy is simply a choice or either being positive or negative....from a judging point of view. Think about it?
J
Patterns of the Past
Submitted by Delphine on
it can be a challenge to reply to your thought-full posts J, due to their length and complexity, so I am taking the approach of addressing certain key passages.
I appreciate your well wishes Delphine. It sounds like you have been giving a lot of thought to your own past and parents and how that plays out with you too. I have some personal theories about this as well. I've gone back and retested myself (again) for the umteenth time and taking the briggs meyers personality tests. My recent post on this has only proved I have to go back and change one that came up the last time to something just slightly different.
I took your advice and re-tested. You are right, I got a different result. This actually is not surprising to me because in my view, we are multi-dimensional, muliti-faceted beings. However, I am quite sure that anyone who tests as an introvert or extrovert will continue to be classified as such on repeated testings. As happened with me (introvert). Like you said, the result will be slightly different. Anyway, I think both the previous result and the one I got today are both "right"!
If I had to pick one thing in common, with both my parents and my wife that drives me personally crazy? Is this kind of black and white thinking. And without going too far a field here.....religion, societal constructs and laws or rules that govern our lives are the very thing that create this kind of thinking in the first place. As I see it....black and white thinking is a problem if it dominates your thinking and you cannot use other means to make decisions....namely....your feelings and emotions and your intuition.
Or even worse in my mind....using black and white emotional thinking for making your decision making process alone. This would be both my mother and my wife. Fear driven emotional thinking in black and white terms. Yikes!!!
On the other hand....as was with my father. Black and white judgmental thinking based solely on logic and and how that serves ME.
Well, can you see the relevance here, of how we repeat relationship patterns from the past? Black and white thinking drives you nuts, and yet you are with a woman who is another black and white thinker--like your parents! Makes you think, doesn't it? I find that contemplating these things is somewhat helpful in detaching emotionally. Seeing it all as a movie playing out--one which you wrote, directed and where you play the starring role :) I think it behooves everyone on this board to explore these past influences in their current experience.
My Dad was a black and white thinker himself btw. I was pretty perceptive from an early age and I used to point that out to him (when he wasn't yelling at me). But he would just deny it. He was "smart" but not terribly insightful.
Who want's to be.... or would choose to be with an unhappy person? No one I know of? Being with an unhappy person....only brings you down to their level and no one I know would choose that as a choice in their life?
But you chose this, apparently! Again...repeating patterns of the past. We ALL do this more or less. Awareness helps.
And from a judging perspective....the reverse has to be true if you are that unhappy person now? I think being Happy is simply a choice or either being positive or negative....from a judging point of view. Think about it?
Right, as Mark Twain said, "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." We need to choose what we want to experience in life, and keep going for it.
Delphine
P.S.
Submitted by Delphine on
And this is why I keep bringing up Ho'oponopono practice here. The basic understanding of which is, "All problems (which are really opportunities) are memories replaying." Your wife's obsessiveness, black and white thinking, control issues, J...all memories replaying from your growing-up years with your family.
Perhaps this will explain it all better than I have been able to do so far. http://www.hooponoponoway.net/blog/2009/12/16/hooponopono-memories/
Delphine
The Act of Forgiveness
Submitted by kellyj on
Our memories show up to give us opportunity to take 100% responsibility and let go. When we let go we give Divinity permission to erase memories for us, so we can set ourselves free. In fact, what we call problems are really opportunities. Life is about opportunities to grow and find out who we are, why we are here, and what we came to do. We come to make amends and correct our errors. That is exactly what Ho'oponopono, an ancient Hawaiian art of problem solving does. We make amends by taking 100% responsibility and saying, "I am sorry. Please forgive me for whatever is in me that has created or attracted this."
This is a repeating message in spiritual teaching....including what Jesus taught as well. When we forgive ourselves for our sins....it sets us free to forgive those who sin against us.
This is why my heart sinks....every time my wife says....."I don't want to look at my past and childhood like your doing...this doesn't do anything for me but make me depressed and sad."
This is her denial talking. It's the very thing standing in her way in order to do this very thing:(
J
She'll get there...
Submitted by Delphine on
...when she's ready. Meanwhile, it doesn't serve you or her to feel sad about it. I may sound like a broken record by now, but realize that you have attracted the situation with her for your own reasons. Memories replaying. You can call them "sins" if you wish. Maybe try Ho'oponopono cleaning? All it takes is continually saying "I love you" within yourself. Try it!
Delphine
Top Down...Bottom Up ?
Submitted by kellyj on
Or outside in....inside out. Either way you get there.....it's getting there that matters isn't it? Since my wife has been working on her homework assignment....saying positive things (vs eliminating negative thoughts and thinking). The difference is noticeably and that's all that matters.
I truly believe she is using the only way she knows will work for her and that's her trying her best. That's all I need to see and I can see the results. And I do say "I Love You"....all the time anyway.
She'll see the frustration on my face and my refusal to engage her when these things that she cannot see come out of her mouth. After a short period of time....she will come and say.."I Love You" and that really does make what just happened....completely disappear. Her way may be the more indirect approach which means she'll need to always correct herself after the fact...but at least she doing something...and what she's doing is working in this way. It's her way of acknowledging her part...without actually having to have to admit it which a problem for her.
On my end...it requires forgiveness each and every time...and reminding myself that this is the approach she needs to take. It may not be my way....but what the Hell? Right? lol
J
Sounds promising
Submitted by Delphine on
Seems you two are making progress. Congrats!
Rght...whatever works. And "I love you" does work. Keep saying/thinking it.
Re "which door", actually I would pick #3...
Delphine
What Makes Us Happy?
Submitted by kellyj on
Right, as Mark Twain said, "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." We need to choose what we want to experience in life, and keep going for it.
Door # 1
Deontology argues that decisions should be made considering the factors of....... (one's duties).......... and others' rights. Requires a judgement.
Some deontological theories include:
Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative, which roots morality in humanity's rational capacity and asserts certain inviolable moral laws. Requires laws first..... and then following the letter of the law at all times.
The contractualism of John Rawls, which holds that the moral acts are those that we would all agree to if we were unbiased.
Natural rights theories, such that of John Locke or Robert Nozick, which hold that human beings have absolute, natural rights.
Door #2
Consequentialism (Teleology) argues that the morality of an action is contingent on the action's outcome or result. Consequentialist theories, differing in what they consider valuable, include:
Utilitarianism, which holds that an action is right if it leads to the most happiness for the greatest number of people. "Utilitarianism" as defined is not just those that promoted maximizing happiness.) 0 sum equation. Requires a judgment. Win/lose....Lose/Win
Egoism, the belief that the moral person is the self-interested person, holds that an action is right if it maximizes good for the self. Black and white....good or bad.....right or wrong
Door #3
Situation Ethics (consequntialism) , which holds that the correct action is the one that creates the most loving result, and that love should always be our goal.
Virtue ethics, advocated by Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas, focuses on the inherent character of a person rather than on specific action.
Pick One:)
J
Which Door...
Submitted by Delphine on
...do you think I'd choose J, based on our recent exchanges?
Delphine
Door #1 or #2 ??
Submitted by kellyj on
;)
J
It depends....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
If parents know/realize that there is an ADHD issue when the child is very young (they may not know it's ADHD, but they know "something" is wrong), then how they address/manage it can mitigate the disorder.
My MIL chose to spoil and indulge H. She chose to NEVER correct him and NEVER teach him/train him. She was extremely lazy and it was easier to just indulge him and not pay attention to his behaviors.
My mother was the loving disciplinarian. If we slammed a door, we had to gently and correctly open and close the door 5 times to "wire it into our heads" the correct behavior. If we still slammed a door, then we had to do it 10 times. If we left a kitchen cabinet open, we had to open and close it a few times to help "remember" and "train" the proper behavior. This was a common sort of discipline. I had a couple of teachers who did the same. If you walked into the classroom and let the door slam, you had to go back out and do it correctly...and repeat that a few times to "drum it into our heads."
Now, that sort of discipline is considered "mean". But it's the same sort of training that a coach will do if you misbehave during practice ..."go run 5 laps." The idea is to drum it into your head that a certain behavior will have an undesirable consequence, so pay attention to what you do, and do the right thing.
As adults it can be harder to change because bad behaviors are so in-grained, and probably experiencing a life-long "static" from others who've been annoyed by the affects of ADHD, has hardened some/many of them.
Furthermore, a portion of those with ADHD also have other disorders, like personality disorders, bi-polar, OCD, etc, along with addictions (likely caused by one or more of the disorders).
Hello Just Try....I am you!
Submitted by c ur self on
I've been married to my wife for 8 years, she has clinical level add and takes adderall everyday just to be able to focus enough to hold a job....I feel much the way you do and deal w/ the exact things you do....The only thing that I have found that works is to separate from any type enablement....Also it is critical that you don't try to have conversations w/ her about things where denial exists....It will always get heated (as you know)...And it will always be your fault.....What helps me and will help you to walk away is the knowledge of our love and commitment to them. And also they can't help it that they are stricken w/ their mind, jus like we are w/ ours....You must accept her (that doesn't mean agree) but her reality isn't and probably want ever be what your's is.....
You kind of have to live like they don't exist in many ways....Set up boundaries....I go places on time Church etc....She comes when it's half over and everyone that knows her just expects it....It's who she is!...It was hard on me, I had my idea's of what a marriage should look like....(30 year previous marriage) I'm hard headed, but even I've learned if I'm going to have peace, I had to put my expectations to bed..:) (like in the grave bed:)....
I've been documenting and posting about two and a half years....If you click on my screen name you can read some of my old post....They may or may not help, but, I promise you that you will identify w/ many things....
Grace to you friend....I will pray for you....
C
just try, love connection
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Dear Just, it's SO hard when mainly what you want is a love connection with your spouse,and they don't seem to want to even give you the time of day. Their hair trigger anger/ frustration is a huge "turn off" when it comes to intimate feelings. My husband has done this so much, it often feels like he can't stand me. But then when I ask him about it, he says "I'm not mad". DENIAL.
I now regret all the years I tried SO hard to make our family "work", when he couldn't see ANYTHING that was happening to make our family so dysfunctional. Again, denial that the ADHD was a factor in our demise. He's lost a good wife and great daughters, because he doesn't want to admit he has a severe problem. I loved him in SPITE of his problems, and he can't see that either. Sad.
JustTry, some suggestions
Submitted by triedandtrue on
You are not doomed but part of the solution is facing reality, and you've done that well: you realize fully the devastation that ADHD behaviors have dealt your family. For your own well-being, I recommend that you get some individual therapy sessions from a counselor well-versed in ADHD and consider asking your doctor for a mild anti-anxiety medication. Try to exercise and get enough sleep. You are carrying your family alone, after all.
If your wife accepts therapy/coaching, that will be a bonus, but prepare to do all the work of finding the therapist (cognitive-behavioral emphasis; not traditional talk therapy) and getting her launched. She has a brain disorder and cannot yet do it herself. Therapy is not a panacea, of course, and she would continue to have her ups and downs, but a good therapist could help put structures and boundaries in place and guide your wife out of her denial. Well-managed medication should help greatly; communicate with your wife's prescribing doctor and stay involved with this until she's willing and able to manage the meds effectively on her own.
I've posted elsewhere on this site some of the nuts and bolts of living with an ADHD spouse. A few more suggestions here. First, what are your children's ages and does your wife work? If not, could she resume an earlier occupation easily? Encourage her to do that now or return to school in preparation for work. In the longer term, it is important that she is able to support herself. Another advantage of participation in the paid workforce is that her performance is monitored and evaluated, which reinforces appropriate behaviors. Second, be thinking about daycare and/or after-school care for your kids; it would be necessary should you divorce but is also a good idea for their well-being now -- professionals provide vital, ongoing support. Third, continue what you have wisely begun: reducing your wife's responsibilities in the home to a level she can handle. ADHD experts note that ADHD moms (or dads) in the home often need 2-hour blocks of time away from child care and other household tasks. Have her therapist or coach work up a schedule with her to build in those time-outs. Do not allocate a 2-hour block to sleeping in, by the way; it would be wasted, because the sleeping ADHD spouse is unaware of that 2-hour block.
You also need to consult a lawyer who specializes in high-conflict divorces. Do not inform your wife of this, keep all documentation private and on paper (limit what you enter on a computer or other device and delete it afterwards), and keep it in a very safe place. Talk with the lawyer about child custody, supervised visitation (if there are issues with safety, etc.), the limits of spousal support, whether your wife could apply for disability (if she has a history of job losses and failure to sustain employment), etc. Keep notes of all instances of poor behavior by your spouse, particularly involving the kids and particularly if there are witnesses. You might not divorce, but you need the lawyer's knowledge.
This can be hard for men but: find a friend or relative who can be trusted to keep confidences so that you can vent and share practical details.
On the bright side, you wife has a diagnosis. Medication and therapy are possibilities. You'll have to take the lead with those, but she may one day be willing to manage her ADHD on her own. As others have said, the ADHD spouse has to want to change.
Triedandtrue
Submitted by jennalemone on
Triedandtrue, you write as though you are an expert on the topic of ADHD and relationships. What is your experience on these issues that finds you prescribing solutions and advice for others?
I second the question.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I second the question.
I'm glad you posted this. I
Submitted by lisa84 on
Edit: This was supposed to be in response to Overwhelmedwife's post.
I'm glad you posted this. I am in between. I don't just let my kids do whatever they want, but I think I could do better. They do have lots of chores, but I need to increase the standards of the quality, now that they are older. They do better on their ADHD meds, but can still be forgetful and it takes awhile for their meds to kick in, so they can destroy the kitchen when they're getting breakfast. I resist the urge to clean up after them, and make them do it, but it's still frustrating.
Just this morning, my 12 yr old son emptied the dishwasher and left all the cupboards open. I had him look around to see what he had forgotten and he closed them. I do feel like a nag sometimes, but I do want them to learn to be more aware. I will definitely start using this method of having them redo things the correct way and repeat it a few times.
My husband was spoiled by his mom and didn't have to do a thing, never even had to pick up a thing after himself, prepare his own meal or anything. It's ridiculous. I think she had the "it's a woman's job" attitude. With my kids, the chores are gender equal.
Jennalemone
Submitted by triedandtrue on
Triedandtrue
Submitted by jennalemone on
What is your experience? Do you or someone in your life have ADD? How many years?