I am trying so hard to set boundaries and it's not working and he is just being resentful. About 3 years ago I quit doing everything for him. He was offered a promotion but had to move across the country for it. And that's pretty much all he told me. I knew from past experiences that the next steps were for me to ask him questions about the details, make a plan, assign tasks, stay on him to complete the tasks, then scramble to fix whatever crisis arose because he didn't do what he was supposed to do. So I refused. I told him to come up with what he was going to do and I would let him know. He became angry with me for not helping him. About two weeks before he was supposed to move he found another job, working from home. I became a stay-at-home mom and he was nasty and bitter. He wouldn't do anything around the house and wouldn't let me take breaks. It was so bad that I was going to leave. My husband lost his job in March. I immediately went into savior mode and started looking for a job. Suddenly he was nice again. By April I realized that he was never going to look for a job as long as I had one. I stopped looking for a job, but two part-time jobs that I had wanted came through and I had to take them, right? Was I going to let my kids starve? What I didn't do was look for a job for him, which is what I usually do when he loses a job. He finally started looking in August, his unemployment ran out in October, and here we are in December with $600 in the bank to last until he gets a job. And I can't get him to see the seriousness of this. He is waiting for me to bail him out. He says he isn't, but keeps repeating "this is almost over," and "things always work out." But they aren't working out and he is doing nothing to fix it. I told him that if I have to get a full-time job to bail us out, then he has to move out. That just made him mad that I was threatening him. We have been together for 20 years and for 17 of those, I was rhe primary breadwinner, sometimes working two jobs while he didn't work at all. But making him look for a new job on his own isn't really working out. He's not doing enough to actually get a job.
I'm not sure I'm doing this boundaries thing right.
Submitted by Dagmar on 12/13/2016.
I mean, I did remind him
Submitted by Dagmar on
I have definitely been reminding him to look for a job all this time. But he wasn't looking at all. He kept saying I was "being negative," and "things would work out." Should I have kept my mouth shut?
Dagmar, It's not working out
Submitted by jennalemone on
This is our marriage EXACTLY. 40 years. Now I am working on trying to figure out why I feel so bad about MYSELF that I let this happen. I was afraid to be poor, alone, breaking up a family, against my religion, against the in-laws. I get it. It is less scary to believe that "things will be OK and turn out in the end" than to make drastic decisions and dive into a world of unknowns without support. Here is what the end looks for me. I am in my 60's. I regret my life of "doing for him, forgiving him". He does not "remember" all I did and thinks he did it all and that I am ungrateful. We don't talk at all because I have resentment and have lost all respect for both of us. I am ashamed in front of my children that I don't have a loving relationship.
One thing I did right. One small tip for you NOW.... I made H be the sole payer of the electric bill. When he let it go for 3 months in the freezing -0° cold, I moved to a hotel until the heat was back on. He sat in a freezing house calling me, telling me I couldn't do this to him, telling me I was unloving and a cold #####. I worked from the hotel, swam at night, went out to eat. He found a way to scramble and call the electric company and get the heat turned on. He found a part time manual job in those three days. Later he said he was thankful that I did that to him so he got his butt kicked in to do something. He is so proud of himself for working one or two days a week. While I still work full time. He still pays the electric bill. And if he didn't I would again go to a hotel. I have also told him that he must pay the home taxes. For a few years, he would wait until the day before they were due and say to me, "You gotta pay this. I don't have it." I would pay it and be angry. Not any more. I say to him now. I don't care if we both go to jail. I will not pay it. He has been fined $700 for not paying it on time. He finds the money in the end. He says love should not revolve around money, trying to make me feel like a grubbing skinflint when I try to talk to him about it. Well, love goes out the window when someone doesn't want to talk about finances and contribute.
His retirement fund is nearly nil. I have some investments from an old job which, if we divorced HE would get half of. The first 20years of our marriage he was a salesman and made some good money but invested and saved nothing. Social Security will give me HALF of what it gives him. It only takes the highest 25 years of your earning life to figure this in. If a wife stays at home while children are young and works part time, she only gets HALF of what her husband earns. If I had known this, I would have done things so differently. I was paying him to "work" (he didn't actually work but on paper I made out a check and then depositied into our bank account) for me on taxes for the benefit of group health insurance which I coordinated and paid. All health costs were deducted from what I made in my business and his "salary" was added to what he made.
He believes that he has supported us. In fact, for 20 years, he has worked part time or not at all and I had paid the bills. DON"T do this. I don't like myself today because I did that. He was able to manipulate me because I so WANTED this to work out and I thought I could love him and family more than myself that that was a noble thing to do and be...but it was not good. CREATE a life you can respect yourself in, dear. Get good mentors and support. I am working on this myself.
Lacking a skill set
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
You have been helping your partner for many years now because when you met him, he did not have the skills ot keep himself organized and on task. Since you helped him, he still didn't have to figure out how to build those skills. The problem with the 'I'm not going to do that for you anymore' approach to shifting repsonsibility for his job searches is that he STILL doesn't have those skills. So he is left without any direction, and little knowledge of how to gain it. In the end, you are the one who suffers, because he gets overwhelmed and resentful, feels abandoned, and wants to punish you for not helping him.
You might think that it would be logical for him to get himself to a library to figure out how to develop these skills...but that isn't typically what happens...because this is a pattern that has been going on for a long long time and eventually it works out for him because when it gets too painful for the others around him, they eventually bail him out...one way or the other (earning the money, helping with the job search, etc.)
You are in a difficult situation, and please do not think that I am saying that this is your fault, for I am NOT. What I would like to tell you, though, is that if you ever have a prayer of changing this dynamic between you it will likely come from a gentle approach in which you tell him that you can't handle all of this anymore (vs. don't want to) and that you are scared and need his help. Appeal to his pride if you can, and his desire to protect you, if he has one. If he has any interest at all, ADD-Friednly Ways to Organize Your Life is very helpful. In addition, perhaps there is an organization out there that can provide help in searching for a job (ask around, talk to your church if you have one, ask the local library...) Sometimes there are resources out there that can take some of the burden off of you, and disconnect his learning process from you as well.
He definitely has no desire to protect me
Submitted by Dagmar on
The lack of desire to protect me was what made me quit doing everything, but that's another story.
I talked to him about what you said and he was receptive, but insisted that he wasn't resentful that I stopped doing things for him, he was resentful about how I reacted when he didn't do what he was supposed to.
I explained that even though things "always work out" when he lets them go, it only works out for him and that I'm left to deal with the consequences. I gave him the example that when he forgets to pay preschool tuition that they call me and not him. He seemed to understand.
Then he left to drop the kids off at school and pick up gift cards for their teachers. I told him where to go, what to buy, how much to spend, where the money would come from, and when he should go. He didn't do it.
I don't know what that means. Did I do too much? Did I not do enough? All I know is that I'm going to have to find time to do it now, and just typing that out made me want to cry. I'm already so stressed that I'm now spending my few days off with migraines. Should I make him go do it now? Should I do it myself?
Dogmar A Suggestion Perhaps?
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm the ADHD man here so as I read what you said....I did have a thought about what you were saying. First things first though....I would take care of your stress because that is the most immediate cause for concern? That will really make it hard to think straight and makes decisions all by itself? I would if I were you...take care of yourself and your stress first and foremost above all else? You will be more emotionally reactive and your body seems to be telling you something which appear to all be the symptoms of too much stress and worry?
And with that....I might assume you are reacting to each time your husband fails to remember things which appear as if he is commenting on that much in how your reacted to him each time he does and this all seems to go together in all the things you are saying? So first off.....deal with the stress or your own and take of that by taking care of yourself and not put your own needs off in that department? You won't be good for anyone if you allow that to take you over?
But as far as your husband is concerned....I have my own thoughts on that too? Things "always work out" might be true...but for the immediate that cannot wait...it appears that's up to you which is all you can do? But your question you were asking specifically here.. Should I make him go do it now? Should I do it myself?
Hell NO!!! Simply put! If still has time to do something he didn't do......don't do it for him and insist he do it? When it comes down to dropping the kids off at school....there's not much room for negotiation there is there? But as far as picking up the gifts and following through will the things you requested.....you did all the thinking for him already....all he has to do is go do it as it would appear?
I might say...if you are in the habit of thinking for him....this might not be the best approach? Saying....if you just gave him the task and let him do all the thinking along with it including what to get....how much to spend and where to go to get it........( possibly discussing the spending part and agreeing on that together )....then leaving the rest up to him to figure this all out would be a better way to go I think? In essence here in just what it looks like? He appears to be the "errand boy"...and just following your directions? And if there is one thing I really hate more than anything myself....is being "directed and controlled" like this? At least that's what it feels like to me when my wife tries to do this with me? I hate nothing more than to have someone "think for me" like that? Just saying in just the way it sounds?
And if that is what is happening....then you are doing all the mental work..and he is just the errand boy? If I were your husband...I would resent that intensely because you are in essence....enabling him by doing that...and he will never learn or have to think for himself...in order to figure it out on his own? If you are so worried ( as it sounds ) and stressed out from this....then what the problem here? It is the forgetting that the problem ...or is it his failure to remember when he forgets meaning....his failure here?
I can pin point this exactly using myself here just from what you said? What, where, when and how and combining this with another errand and trying to compact that all together into a one specific time with no room for error? If you devised this strategy for him...you are expecting he will not fail or he won't forget and that is a set up for disaster right there? You may not know it...but you were the one who set him up to fail in doing it this way? And....he didn't disappoint you did he? That is a self fulfilling prophecy...in the making and it will not fail to yield the results you got....predictably just from this example you gave?
If that were me....I would tell you how I wouldn't fail to meet your needs or demands quite simply?
1) Don't think for him
2) Don't do for him
3) Don't plan or schedule for him
4) Don't give deadlines without plenty or room or margin for failure in time by giving a range of time to complete the task..and not hit him last minute...the night before or worse....that very day worst of all!!! That's the worst thing you could possibly do. Give him a task on the spot or need it.....right now today!!! That is a recipe for disaster..and it will get the same results you are looking for and worried about every time?
That doesn't really count as far as paying the school tuition on time though which a completely different thing? I let my wife do all the bill paying since she is meticulous and very proactive ahead of time and does things way in advance long before they are due? I'm the opposite of that and tend to wait until the last minute so between the two of us....that's a no brainer?
The problem for me..and it always has been and I know myself well enough not to do it in the first place and say no right up front? If I am helping someone else...do their work or task...then that's all I'm doing? Helping them....but that's not my task in this case and that is all I'm good for? Errand boy, helper, go-fer.....what ever? It's not my decisions, not my job and I have no part in the planning or organizing and I am just the window dressing or bus boy that cleans the tables after wards? So if that is all I am good for...then I'm working for the other person and they are the boss? It's not in the job description to question or make demands in that case and I just do as I'm told and follow orders? But ultimately...as in any business arrangement like that? It's the managers job to put out fires, make decisions and do all the dirty work including fixing any problems? Ultimately...if someone is unhappy or complains in that case....it's the manager who takes the fall and takes the brunt of that situation? That's what a managers job is...and everyone under the manager is just a "pion" working for minimum wage if one were to get paid for their duties under this kind of situation? So if I were the bussiness owner and it was my business as the superior at the top looking at this situations? It's the manager job ultimately to make sure the job gets doesn't and they can't blame the pions for anything since that what I am paying a manager to do? Do all the thinking for everyone else and making all the decisions? If my manager came to me..and blamed the "pions" for what went wrong? I give him/her a warning...and the next time I would fire them? Possibly...depending if they kept trying defer responsibility like that..and trying to shirk their responsibilities and a manger which is what I hired them to do? Chain of command and shit rolls down hill and it stops at each step on the ladder...and then it goes on from there?
So to paint that picture for you from just what you said? ( giving this hypothetical and putting into perspective? ) If your that manager now.....what would you do if I just reamed you out for trying to blame the errand boy for missing his schedule? Would you? Fire him for not doing his job? Would you...do his job for him? Or would you make him go back out and do his job like his job description requires? That would simplify this I think...since you can't fire him can you? Well you can in that respect but for now...lets assume that's not an option?
But in the bigger picture here? Why are you signing up for manager duty and taking on that responsibility in the first place? Doesn't sound like you like that job very much so why are you doing it?
And I've got to tell you straight up? It that were me....being treated like an "errand boy" or "pion" like that without my consent or saying this was Okay.....I would be furious myself and would resent you for doing so? Seriously? If you take everything you said...and put it into "job descriptions"....what I see is a manager...and an errand boy...and all that goes with it?
And if you were the one to set this up and makes all those decisions unilaterally by yourself with his input into it? Then you are deciding for him...thinking for him..and even doing for him all for what? Because you are so worried that he will forget and not doing it and attempting to head these things off ahead of time?
I will say this to you a different way. He has ADHD. He will forget. You can count on it. So if you know he has ADHD and you are expecting him not to forget....then you are expecting him not to have ADHD and this doesn't work? There is no....NOT HAVING ADHD? Expecting him not to have it...is expecting too much? And if you expect to do what your doing to yourself..and not start suffering the consequences of what you doing to your self....then you are expecting to much of yourself too? So what's the solution here?
Expect him to have ADHD. Expect him to fail. Expect him to forget but don't manage him or do his thinking for him? If you don't like this job. Quit. and find another one? Not quit him....quit the job..and don't do his for him?
You can help him immensely...by helping him think about all the ways he fails and work that into a plan that accounts for plenty or room for failure/...and lot of second third and foruth chances to succeed and still meet the deadlines? That means strategizing way out ahead of time...and not making sudden or immediate demands on the spot...that day...or the night before? If you need it done a week from now......give him his job..and let him do it? You can remind him towards the end is he doesn't remember but you won't know that...since as long as he gets it done by the end....it doesn't matter how, when, what or where as far as your concerned? All that matters is it gets done and that is his job from start to finish..and you are out of the picture completely?
So now if he fails.....guess who gets to fix it? Not you that's for sure. And if he has to get into the car at midnight and drive across town in the middle of the night and slip a payment under the door or go to a 24 hour shopping market in order to meet the deadline? That ain't your problem? Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way to go shopping? At midnight...driving across town in late at night...because he forgot? " Bye bye!! Oh...and don't wake me up when you get home because I will be sound asleep if you don't mind? "LOL
It's not your job and your not his manager? If you volunteered for this duty in the first place for...who's fault is that?
There is no working harder with ADHD. Only working smarter and you have to smart enough not to pick up the slack and do his job for him right off the bat if that is what you volunteered for without him telling you this is what I want you to do? If he did tell you this is what he wants? Then he's nuts...and I would go tell him to go jump in a ice cold lake and wake up from his delirium tremors or what ever has possession his mind for saying something that ridiculous in the first place?
Just say'in. LOL
And when exactly do I find time to take care of myself?
Submitted by Dagmar on
If I ask nothing of him and expect nothing of him, what does he do?
If I am earning the money, paying the bills, cleaning, shopping, taking care of the kids, AND fixing all the situations he gets us into, what is left for me?
It's too much to ask him to stop at the store, when he said to me that he had an hour to kill between dropping the kids off at school?
I should just be okay with him spending all the money I earn on hobbies and rock shows?
Since we've had kids, the time I get to myself is literally a few hours a month. I don't have time to shower every day, and that is something that is important to me.
I told my husband that I was overwhelmed and his advice to me was "maybe you should get up earlier."
Is that okay? I should start only sleeping 3 hours a night so he doesn't have to go to the store?
Because the part you said about making him do it when he forgets? That's the "reaction" I'm talking about. Last night I went to do a load of laundry and found the washing machine stuffed with random clothes. I made him empty it so I could wash the load I was holding. You would have thought I was murdering him. He played dumb, then sulked, then begrudgingly came and emptied the washer.
Dogmar I Understand the Dilemna
Submitted by kellyj on
I get it too? And when push comes to shove and you get right down to it....someone has got to give ( or give up something here ) and if this is effecting your health...then that someone is him in this case if he is not going to be reasonable about it?
What you said here? Is that okay? I should start only sleeping 3 hours a night so he doesn't have to go to the store? No....that isn't being reasonable at all and you know it? Don't you?
So now what's the problem here? You said it... "You would have thought I was murdering him. He played dumb, then sulked, then begrudgingly came and emptied the washer."
I can't tell you how much I understand this. The more my wife...has to give up or compromise in anything...the uglier she gets as her response? This is who I have been doing battle with and it is a nightmare to fight this constantly as it comes out...after the fact? First I was really nice and agreeable...and that did nothing of course? Then I became a little more assertive....trying the soft and gentle approach. No way....the nice approach got me no where? Then finally it really came down to what you are saying here too?
When it literally came down to my health and well being ....being compromised...instead of my wife's comfort level ( literally that's all it is )...it makes it easy to decide? Her or me here? And with ramping up incrementally every time she had to give up anything or compromise at all? It's when I kind of put my foot down and took the kid gloves off with her and forced the issue?
My wife differently than you husband...doesn't place financial demands on me with her hobbies and outside interests? What she demands in a very irrational..and even greedy way is my time to the point a long time ago early on ...she even attempted to try and tell me that from 5:00pm. Friday evening when she came home from work...until Sunday night ( the entire weekend literally ) that she wanted my undivided attention the entire time she was off work on the week end? This was one of the most bizarre requests I had ever had made of me and was going...HUH? I don't understand? Your trying to actual establish a "rule" that this is some how Okay? That's bizarre? WTF up with that? And she couldn't tell me or give me any real reason for this...other than this is what she felt I should do which made it even weirder since she couldn't even tell me why?
But boy...when she wanted to be alone or not bothered in any way and have her "alone time".....you better not disturb her "ZEN time" as she called it...which was even more bizarre to me?
MMM?? "Zen time" huh? ( which was a joke but not funny here lol ) What about my Zen time.....like on the weekend when I get my chance and you are effectively robbing me..or attempted highway robbery....by making this bizzare request of me.....that NO ONE HAS EVER MADE????
A kind of a funny moment I do remember going to her saying "Well...I mean...if we had a plan for the weekend that involved the entire week end and we had some kind of activity or like going out of town....I can see doing that which I understand? But if I am just suppose to be her for you the entire weekend and we have no plans or we are going out of town like that? What are we going to do that entire time? Just sit here on the sofa and look at each other??" And I was being only part sarcastic...since we were just sitting there on the sofa in the living room at that very moment and it was the weekend..and she was just asking me right then on Friday night and wanting me to be available the entire weekend with no interruptions...right then in that moment she was saying this?
And she looked at with that puzzled look ...like she had no answer because she didn't? LOL "So now what?? What are we going to do or what did you have in mind? "
Blank ( click) ...rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr LOL
I have come to learn the answer here the hard way....and I can give you the same one I came up with myself? You need to do what you need to do forself...no matter what he says and especially and most importantly.....you don't have to be nice about it and especially....when somehow....their emotional deregulation and internal out of control ness....is causing you to be out of control yourself?
And if he gets pissy....that ain't your problem even if he tries to make it yours? Between their hurts feelings or ( what ever is going on inside them ) and you being healthy or actually declining in your own health? Well....that's where my own attitude comes in here....."Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way to......( where ever ) ? " You've got more important things to worry about in that respect....to your husbands inability to compromise and let go of things both physically speaking...and emotionally speaking? His comfort level....and you having to maintain it for him....is not your personal problem...it's his...whether he realizes or not? The most important part for you to keep in mind is......that YOU realize it....not him?
It's a tight rope walk....let me tell you? But walking a tight rope....is a Hell of lot better than walking on eggs shells any day of the week?? I had to get over a lot of things working against me...to finally be able to let go of this because when someone is that blind that they really can't see it....or are getting it......the most important thing I think I've learned for myself...is that I can see...not my wife? As long as I'm not blind....I will always be able to know what to do form myself most importantly? If I have to trade off being nice to myself first...before I am nice to my wife and she forces me to be the bad guy....then so be it.....I'll be what ever she thinks I am.....as long as I'm being NICE to me and not trying to be the bad guy which is only by default when she sees someone as bad...who will not give her every waking moment of your time? Tough titties I have to say to that....but I don't say that to her....I just keep that to myself ( or here ) to spell it out in the portion I have to take with her? I don;t have to say those words....to hold that position and not budge which is.....creating a boundary....without having to say the words? The hard way unfortunately...but I am given no other choice and.....
it does work and has worked slowly.....but it nearly killed me at first to break through the ice so to speak? And I will tell you straight up....I know how hard this is on your and it takes a toll on your...which is why you need as much strength and rest as you can....because of the effort you have exert to get there? I will say though...that from that effort I put it...I am finally getting through to her and I am not having to work so hard for those boundaries when she finally came to the conclusion...that what she was doing...wasn't working for her....but it was for me...and so .....now what?
Saying....now it's her going ...."now what".....I am not trying to answer that for her what so ever..and leaving her to figure out the "now what" for herself.
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
It sounds as if you are in a power war at the moment. Your power comes from trying to get him to do stuff. His power comes from not doing it. Let me give you an example. You come upon a machine full of random clothes. You can either pull it out and put it in a basket, then tell him you did it later (takes perhaps 30 seconds total time) OR, you can go find him, tell him he's in your way, demand that he come to the machine and empty it out, argue with him about it, feel frustrated about his bad attitude, then do your laundry. Takes at least 5 minutes of your time (maybe more) AND makes you both feel like crap. He goes away swearing he hates helping you. You go away thinking he's too lazy to live on the planet. That's one element of a power war. When you do something that isn't in your best interest simply to make a point. For it is not in your best interest to make him resist you, nor to take the extra time needed to do it the way you did it.
You need to look at your own role here a little bit - not because you aren't trying hard, but simply because you want things to go MORE your way, not less. But doing it the way you are doing it is working AGAINST yourself. Your resentment and (at least in the laundry example you gave) actions are creating MORE work for you, not less, while simultaneously building resentment and resistance in you both. This forcing him to 'learn' by making she he's the one to pull the 'bad' load of laundry out of the washer is parenting behavior - and parent/child dynamics will KILL your relaitonship. Bottom line - you won't want to hear this, but you are also to blame for your relationship issues.
If you want time for yourself, you must simply TAKE it. No apologies. That means giving up something else (my vote - giving up the argument over the laundry! That would have been enough time for a quick shower...as just one example.)
Same thing goes with sleep. The less sleep you have, the less you will function and the longer stuff will take. Carve out - with zero exceptions - at least 7 hours (7.5 is ideal) and do not let ANYONE interfere with that. Whatever is left undone will still be there tomorrow, Setting clear boundaries around your priorities is one way to see what's TRULY important - as in, what doesn't get done is less important.
Your husband's response (wake up earlier) is a pissy, babyish response - for sure. And he's being that way because he's pissed off at you big time and wants to lash out. It's his way of saying 'you aren't the boss of me' and 'you can't MAKE me help you!' This is where the damage of your power struggle comes from. He won't help you if you remain in it. Ever. So if you want to get out of it, you need some radical changes in your home.
Resources for figruing out how to make those changes include my live seminar (this is the best resource because you BOTH do it - and he needs the info, too); CoDependent No More (a book by Melodie Beatty) or, possibly, The Dance of Anger. If you need help convincing your hubby to try the course, tell him I offer a full refund up to the third session (he's in control of whether or not he continues...and no financial risk). If that doesn't work, contact me and I'll give you some ideas based on your specific situation.
Good luck with all this!
A Break Through....In the Power War
Submitted by kellyj on
I've had enough talks with my T about this "power war" struggle I end up having with my wife and I know exactly where it comes from. One time I was actually kind of sick...but we needed to go see her mother ( before she passed ) and I was not really in the mood for talking much but it was an obligatory trip to help her mother with some things? We had a list of things that her mother needed some help with because her mother was having to "issues" with the people in her assisted living home where she had just moved to not long before? ( that might tell you something right there lol )
Anyway....I had to sit down and rest my eyes while I just sat there quietly and listened to the conversation that took place between my wife and her mother for almost 40 minutes of discussing these issues she was having? Literally....as I sat there just listening to my wife...trying to have a discussion about the issues....my blood pressure started to rise and I was having a visceral sympathetic reaction to this power struggle my wife was seemingly trying to have with her own mother...in just trying to help her? I was trying not to listen in too much as it was causing me to feel worse than I was and giving me a head ache just simply being in the same room with this which was really the most educational learning experience I could ever have?
And then finally....my wife left to go talk to the super in the care facility and see if these claims her mother was making were actually true or not ( NOT )...but needless to say....I was left there with her mother for a brief time...so I thought I would try and help my wife out and talk to her about one thing on the list of issues and complaints she was having that had to do with the emergency help ( life line ) button and cord they gave the residence since it seemingly wasn't working properly as her mother said? I gave that about 2 minutes effort before just giving up completely since I could see the same thing happening with me and I already had a head ache from just listening to this? LOL It was a valiant effort none the less?
As it turned out which her mother wasn't copping too....was apparently.....when you pull that cord one too many times just to get your laundry picked up instead of immediate assistance....they stop coming right away from the "mom who cried wolf" syndrome which was really the answer there? lol Funny little conclusion to solve that mystery! Power and control...for sure for sure.
But just last night and then again in the after math......I reminded her of this story and simply said...."you and I were both trained and conditioned to respond as if everyone is going to do this as if....everyone is like this and you started anticipating it before too long? It's a habit and this is where it comes from and you do this with me all the time...and you don't even realize it? ( as if I'm here mother? ) And I said....and I do it too in my own in anticipation of you doing this and when I tried to talk to your mother that one time....I could see why you ended up with this unconscious habit of anticipating and reacting ot a power struggle...as if it's going to happen and even when it's not?
When you stop engaging and doing battle with each other....it opens the conversation up...to actually say things like this? I even told her that I wanted to try and experiment right then to see how it felt for her.....when I tried to ask her to stop doing one of my most ( annoying pet peeves ).....finishing my sentences and finishing them wrong in anticipation of what she thinks I'm going to say which is exactly where this comes from? With a person like her mother.....you always had to think one step ahead of her to head her off or pin her down because she was slippery-er...than deer guts on a door knob...and then some!!! LOL It was a no win situation....because she was lying and didn't want to admit...that she was pulling the cord to get here laundry picked up...instead of when she was having a heart attack or some major health malfunction? When I actually was in that same place as my wife with her mother...and felt what my wife was feeling....I certainly can understand where it came from and why it was this ended up being such a habit for my wife because within the two minutes I was trying that....I started to do it too...by default? Imagine growing up with that all your childhood!!! YIKES!
I gained a great deal of compassion for my wife...and used that to do this experiment with her? I told her that I was going to do it...by asking her a direct request...and then I said" please don't finish my sentences for me....it really caused me since it really hurts my feelings when you do that? Then I said....that not a criticism as you the person....it's simply giving you a constructive request because it hurts my feelings when you do that but I'll bet that you were ready for me to criticize you...weren't you?
And my wife stopped and thought about this...and I said " And the same thing happens to me too? I am so ready for you to finish my sentences....that it feels like I was talking to your mother that day when I was trying to get the real story out of her...and she was kept slipping through my fingers by doing that very thing? And as I sat and just listened to the two of you and her doing that with you....it was all you could to to not get angry with her since everything was a fight or struggle over the simplest question that she never would give you as straight answer for no matter how hard you tried? She was anticipating you...so she could stay one step ahead of you...and you were anticipating her just to try and get one step ahead of her which was futile and you never won since she was lying the whole time? She new exactly what the problem was....but she wasn't about to stop since this is what she wanted regardless of the policies or rules?
"But I'm not doing that with you and you know that? But you are so conditioned to do this habitually.....you don't realize you do this?"
And for the first time ever.....that didn't create a fight and she actually allowed me to say....what she was doing to hurt my feelings and make me feel so dismissed? Someone needs to drop the defensiveness and let go of something here and not make it about control and power...to stop the cycle? When I stopped...she stopped and once she stopped and trusted I wasn't going to fight with her like her mother did.... and then actually reminded her of that day ( which is where it came from )....I told her "this is a NOT, a criticism of you as a person like your mother did every time you tried to simply talk to her about anything thing she did that hurt you....it's just saying this is just one annoying thing you do..but it does really hurts my feelings but I know it's just a habit that comes from being in a Power War your entire childhood with a parent like this...who never stopped right to the last day of her life?
And the clouds parted and she actually listened and heard me after telling her last night...."I don't care what you do....you are free to do what ever you like" Which if you stop and think about it......was not something my wife had probably ever heard before? That's kind of the opposite...of a power war over control if you stop and think about it? And it worked....as one might think it would?
I tried some of that
Submitted by Dagmar on
Thank you so much for all your responses to me. I was going to sign up for your seminar last year, but then the job loss thing happened. . . I tried reading Codependent No More, and while I identified with everything, it all seemed to be stuff that I was already doing and it wasn't working out. I read another book about relationships and ADHD that I checked out of the library and I got to the chapter about deciding to be happy and it gave the example of a wife who would give her husband three days to clean up a mess and then just do it herself. I can't live like that. I could give my husband three days to clean something up and then set it on fire in front of him, but I could never make peace with doing it myself.
But letting things go is just making things worse for myself. He hasn't cleaned the house since October. I have wanted to respond to this post since it was first left but haven't had a minute since then. We had company coming in and despite me reminding him for weeks that we need to clean, he only cleaned under the couch (why? why?) and I have had to pull all-nighters this week to get it done myself.
I didn't get to enjoy anything. I had a panic attack so bad I was thinking about going to the hospital. I called him and he just said "I have chest pains from stress, too, but it does concern me that you have blurry vision." My annoyance at him and my realization that even if I am having a heart attack, I'm totally on my own to fix it got me back on track, but didn't really make me feel great.
My kids had a great Christmas, though.
So what do I do? Not be his mom and not say anything and live in filth until I want to have company? Work two jobs, handle all the childcare when I'm home AND clean up his messes? It's not like we're both at work all day. He is home with two toddlers trashing the house. Every day there are so many dishes left in the sink that it won't all fit in the dishwasher. I have to check the kids' sippy cups for mold (and I usually find it) because he thinks I'm being picky asking him to wash them every day. I washed and put away SIX full loads of laundry and didn't even get to the bed linens, so it's not like I'm just a crazy perfectionist. I had to spend a full hour cleaning my kitchen before I could bake cookies with my kids. If I kept up with this on a daily basis, on top of the two jobs, it would be better, but I don't have time as it is. He needs to start taking things over. He just turns on the tv for the kids and then can't do anything else because he's watching them. When I was home, TV time was when I got things done. Now I don't even have that because I can't come home after the kids have watched 12 hours of TV and let them watch more.
Sorry for the rant, but how do I get him to help without telling him he has to?
Difference between telling and asking
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
You can tell him he has to, but in most situations where rebellion against being 'told what to do' is in play, as it seems to be here, that actually won't get you anywhere. I will simply take your telling him to do stuff as further proof that you are a tyrant and more reason to ignore you.
The only way that I've seen work for the longer term is the asking approach - as in 'I simply can't handle this any more. Please help me.' It sounds as if you have done this...and he still refuses to help. If this truly, truly is the case, then it may simply make sense to kick him out. Tell him that you aren't his slave and that if he wishes to contribute further to the household he is invited back.
But, of course, that leaves you without child care.
Which means you will have MORE to do, not less. So perhaps that puts what he is doing in perspective.
Is there ANY way that you could afford some assistance in the house cleaning? Someone who can come in for 2 hours a day, three days a week? That person could do laundry and kitchen and pick up. People who clean for a living are often very efficient. Shorter times more often could get you a lot of relief from the stresses you are under. Seems as if this would be cheaper (and likely better for your family) than divorce or having a heart attack.
I wish. . .
Submitted by Dagmar on
There is 100% no way we could get a cleaning person. Today is the day that our savings ran out.
I'm out of options. I need to give up (again) on my dream job and get a crappy sales job so I can support everyone. He told me he applied to three jobs this week, but didn't even look in other cities or at jobs he wouldn't love.
He successfully waited me out and refused to act until I have no choice but to take over. Our savings are gone. We won't be able to pay our bills in two weeks when they are due. If it wasn't for food stamps we would starve.
I'm really supposed to go to him right now and say "please look for a job?"
I'm so sorry, Dagmar. My
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I'm so sorry, Dagmar. My former husband was unemployed for many years. I tried to avoid telling or asking him to look for work because if I did so, that would make me a nag and a control freak, right? But occasionally I'd get so frustrated that I'd say something, and then he would respond with, "All we ever talk about is me not having a job." A few years ago, late in our now defunct marriage, he said to me that when I would ask or tell him to look for work, his brain (not him, his brain!) would respond by making him do the opposite because he didn't like to be told what to do. And I said, gee, that's interesting, because the majority of the time, when I wasn't saying anything about him looking for work, his brain didn't respond by making him do the opposite: look for a job. But that's okay, because it had been clear to me for a long time that he didn't want to apply for jobs and he wanted to blame me for his unemployment and he'd justify that blame in any way possible.
No. Now you look at him and
Submitted by Almost Done on
No. Now you look at him and say, "get a new residence."
Also an option
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Yes, 'move out' is also an option. He's freeloading.
When I say 'don't nag' I am NOT suggesting you should never ask for something. Only that the way that you ask for it is in a way that is respectful. "Why aren't you looking for a job?" or "How come you didn't look for a job in the next state?" is a form of telling a partner what to do and berating that partner - and more likely to increase resistance - particularly if your partner is someone whose response to that sort of language is defiance.
You can get the idea across with other words, such as "We are in a desperate financial situation now...here's the evidence of that (X dollars of monthly essential bills, Y amount of income, 0 savings." I am working a 60 hour work week so am maxed out. The only thing possible is that you figure out some way to bring in some money...or cut expenses further. We need to work on this together to figure out the plan of attack. Do you have suggestions? What's your approach going to be, and what will make it more successful than what you've been doing before?" You want to be working as partners
Tough talk, but not directive. You can ask for timetables (as in 'if I don't find a job I love by X date then I'll take one I hate") and insist that there are mulbiptle tracks going at the same time to help ensure success (i.e. a job I love search simulatneous with a job I hate search...). And, if you want, you can suggest that you won't be able to continue to afford to feed him and he will have to move out so you can stretch what little you have to feed the kids after X date to drive home the point that you can't keep living this way any longer - it's too important not to be on the street.
Good luck with it...ugh
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
"We are in a desperate financial situation now...here's the evidence of that (X dollars of monthly essential bills, Y amount of income, 0 savings." I am working a 60 hour work week so am maxed out. The only thing possible is that you figure out some way to bring in some money...or cut expenses further. We need to work on this together to figure out the plan of attack. Do you have suggestions? What's your approach going to be, and what will make it more successful than what you've been doing before?"
My ADHD husband would truly glaze over by about that second sentence with its figures. And not remember a syllable of what I said, later. At our house, email works better for stuff like this. But even then....
Unless the financial dire straits had some direct impact on him, taking something away from his life, these conversations arent real to my husband, and either not memorable, or are irritating to him. Or if he, himself, by his own lights, decided to do something, that he hadnt been doing before. Then he tackles something. My husband is a lovely, lovely, well intentioned man, trying hard, doing it and in possession of life skills. We are learning. I'm trying hard, too. We've worked some things out, others we are working on. But if it's not perceptible to him, it doesnt exist.
Somehow, if a situation has no impact on him, it's not nearly as real as if it affects him directly. I think that's one thing that Dagmar's husband has navigated himself into...the consequences for his actions and behavior dont hit him, they hit Dagmar. But Melissa and Dagmar, what's to be done if there are kids involved?
J sometimes has talked about 'splaining. Boy, I began marriage trying to explain, thinking that description of a problem or giving my reasons for what I was doing or asking for what I, or we, needed from my husband, would lead to talking it over, followed by decision, followed by action I certainly agree with the trying to use soft, kind, non accusatory sounding language. Yes to that. But with that real/not real , now/not now thing going on, where if something has no immediate lived impact on my husband , it got no attention, and if no attention, no valuing it or acting about it, and most of my explanations, and fact based requests, including requesting participating with me in problem solving and decisionmaking were. To him.....hot...air. He's a great guy, so I'm not kvetching about him. And I'm not talking down about him. Discussions of problems that have no direct impact on him just dont stick with him. I HAD to accept this about him, trusting his love and good will. There has to be perceptible effect.
Dagmar, wishing you well. In a fantasy world, I'd wish that you would take those kids and vamoose, at least for awhile, so that he could experience the consequences of his actions and non actions, and you could see whether or not, once he connected his behavior with consequences, he could pull off not freeloading.
Yep Talk is Cheap Splain'in Doesn't Work
Submitted by kellyj on
And interesting visit to our T's office the other day and my wife voluntarily wanted to go back and see him with me together but as she said....she wanted his opinion about our situation? This isn't so much related to what dagmar is experiencing directly...but my T had an interesting point of view in terms of how to tell if it's ADHD and something else your are dealing with...namely as he said.." a personality disorder?" This was a pretty well put way of showing my wife ( possibly ) that when things never change and are always the same there is something else going on in terms of the difference with ADHD and another issue? He was pointing directly at my wife's mother and where my wife's fears and expectations come from which at this point....I do understand this myself as well?
As my wifes main complaint of me...came about in an example she gave of how I had forgotten to do something and this is what goes right against what she experienced in her childhood as well? Neglect...basically and the pattern remained the same and never changed? And I mentioned the "inconsistently consistent" aspect of ADHD as a reminder that this hit and miss aspect of not always remembering things or letting her down is not always this ways? In fact more often than not....I do as I say but then there are those times...and those times are what causes my wife to react as if they are "always" out of that same fear that this is an indicator that it will be just like she remembered? This is an over reaction or response out of fear for sure....but as I said this....my T brought up the fact...that there is usually and positive side...to every negative side when talking about strengths and weakness's and he brought up the strength or positives or the flip side to this issue which at least for me...I do have those as well so there is a flip side for sure and he was getting her to see that too?
And that's when he pointed out something that I know all too well myself....but as he mentioned being inconsistent.....he also mentioned the consistent nature or a person with a personality disorder. To the point....they are not inconsistent at all to the point ( as he said ).....they almost have to do it they are so consistent that you can set the time of day by it....that's how consistent they are and never changing? ( pointing again at her mother and making sure she heard him make the point that most people are inconsistent and variable in their behavior not only people with ADHD even though in the ways we can be inconsistent....are ways that can have a negative impact which are specifically related to being reliable?
I told him ( and my wife as I spoke directly to her saying ) that I am not easy to live with at times...and I know this is a challenge for my wife?
And he said "Be thankful that he is that way which is almost the opposite of being consistently consistent to the point that they have to do it....literally almost like they cannot be inconsistent if you were trying to make the comparison?
And I have to agree with him as far as I am concerned. I am more unpredictable or even sporadically unreliable but most of the time not...but this still creates a problem for sure making no excuses here for me? which is hard for my wife to deal with? Anything that smells of failure even once....immediately goes right back to what she knew? A person who never met her needs or never responded in kind....ever. Consistently consistent and never changed ever no matter what you did or tried with her?
And I have to say from own experience with a parent like this? My T is absolutely right. Consistent..and never changing...to the point that he had to do it...not matter what IT was? Like clockwork....and you could count on it.
I was thinking about this when reading what dagmar was saying and it is ironically almost the reverse which would be more normal for sure? Saying...with my wife...she learned to expect what dagmar is experiencing now...and looks for that in everyone....because of the belief she formed by just this one person who never failed to disappoint which is not the norm...but in essence...only for my wife and no one else?
Dagmar is the norm in that....a person doesn't expect someone to be so consistently fail her...which is a hard thing to wrap your head around thinking that they will change if they are given enough time?
As my T reminded us together in his office....this would be true for most people without question? But there are those exceptions..and with them...consistently consistent...is the unwavering name of the game? And with them if this is true....nothing you do will make a difference no matter how long or how hard you try and that is a tough reality to accept...but if that's the case with a track record to prove it.....then that takes the guess work out of the picture if you knew it would always be exactly the same from here on out with no hope for anything different?
I agree with NON....if there is no cost associated with the behavior and they are unwilling to respond....then some kind of cost with an impact...will be the only way to get that persons attention? It is the same with a Bully as well? If there is a cost to their behavior...they will take that somewhere else where there will be no cost to them and they will leave you alone once they experience that for themselves and no amount of talk or splain'in.....will get there attention? You don't have to be irate or mean yourself...but you do have a right to defend or protect yourself and you don't have to be nice about it or put up with kind of non-sense. Worrying about hurting their feelings ....or being the bad guy in that case is not your problem if that is the position they put you into with no choice given or even considered on your behalf? It does sound like a wake up call and reality check is in order and I agree.....there really is no excuse what so ever...for free loading.
PS My wife is not leaving as she said and is now agreeing to go back into therapy with me after our visit this week? That does take the pressure off me and allows my T to do his thing...which i think...he does it very well indeed? To the point...that the complaint she had of me...was actually not really ADHD related but more of just an honest mistake? Being the boy who cried wolf makes those moments hard to deal with since you know that everyone screws up once in a while and forgets things and that is not usually a big deal? But in the way my T was really working with me just to show you...he turned and said. "Can you promise not to do that ONE thing again? ( what a perfect set up.....he is very clever ) "Absolutely!!" I said? Seeing how...I have never done that before and it will be easy for me never to do it again because it was a fluke even for me...which makes it an easy one to follow through on and not fail and make that promise with a fair amount of confidence on my part as well. (and I got that little smile from him...that tells me he is trying to make sure that I will which will help build the trust in my wife...that she finds so hard to come by? In my mind...that is what a good therapist does? Makes everyone a winner and makes it as easy for you to succeed.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Glad to read that PS you added.
: ) You go for it.
Wishing you both well.
Thanks Non Appropriate Anger is Good
Submitted by kellyj on
I was thinking about my swim coach again which is probably what sparked my memory of someone who had the ability to be "firm"..and even "hard" ( as in hard ass lol ) when appropriate. In the article I included honoring him and his induction into the High School Hall of Fame ( for teachers who go above and beyond the call of duty ) there was a couple endorsements made of him that said he was a really "nice guy". He was a really "nice guy" all the time and had this huge ear to ear grin that I always will remember about him but....what goes on behind closed doors does not always tell the tale?
They said he was not an imposing figure as I recall the wording "standing not even 6 feet tall". Well...I can tell you one thing, you don't have to be BIG to be imposing and that statement implies possibly that he was not? Oh no!!! He was imposing like all get out if need be and he had a huge booming voice to go along with it that could fill an auditorium and then some. And he had this one unique talent that no other coach I had ever witnessed in that he could "whistle"...through his teeth without his hands mind you, that you could hear under water that reverberated throughout the entire building. Most if not all other "people" would need to have a "whistle" ( the kind you wear around your neck ) to be able to do the same thing. It was piercingly LOUD!!! lol And there was no way you could not hear it? And when you heard that whistle he had...either you stopped "dead in your tracks"....or you "went" ( started ) like a "Bat Out of Hell" !! Either way...and that was his innate ability to get your attention and in a hurry using his "Human Whistle" instead? I have never heard anyone do it...quite so well. LOL It was like a steam whistle ( of old ) that singled the start and end of the work day in factories of the times?
And I thought about the word "imposing"...and that is a perfect word describe this talent...even if...this is not how you normally are but for a specific reason? The ability to get someone attention....seems to be a a required component or skill you need, in being a good leader I think if you stop and think about it?
Anger as it sits...is just a Human emotion that everyone has for any reason imaginable.....but being able to wield it effectively and then let it go and not stay that way....is valuable skill to have and learn?
And thinking back to this very good example in my life....I can relay the secret in doing this well and I think "self confidence" and "ownership" are the key components necessary in order to pull this off well? And I do realize now if I hadn't before....this is what I learned from my swim coach in how to do this well?
When I had reached that point of utter exasperation with my wife's "techniques" she employs so she wasn't have to hear anything about her self that she doesn't want to hear ( interrupting, re-directing, anger, and defensive maneuvers )....as my T explained....are all "defense mechanisms"...yet these are of the self sabotaging kind...that serve no useful purpose and actually cause harm to the person on the receiving end of it.....like a dog who is a "fear biter". That is a perfect way to describe what my wife at times....."A Fear Biter"...which is the point that she understands ( as she says she knows she does this ) but at the same time...cannot stop doing it? This is not the same thing as a person who has a "personality disorder" ...in the way my T said..."they have to do it".
THEY.....have to be on the "offensive" or are "looking for trouble" you might say in a more "predatory way" that only serves them at all times and no one else? That's different than someone who is programmed to respond to the slightest nuance of anyone being "offensive"....that they react in kind...with "equal forces!!!" Like a dog who has been beaten all their life..and is weary of everyone and always ready to "bite". A Fear Biter dog...is not looking for trouble or looking to bite anyone.....but if someone comes inside their comfort zone or in range of being attached (themselves )...they will lower their head...and growl!!!! lol And if you stick your hand out to comfort them or to ease their mind? Guess what? THAT IS MY WIFE!!! lol
That description of a "Fear Biter"...is a perfect description indeed. It is mostly a bluff...to ward off a predator....but the problem with my wife (and it is her problem not mine)....is that everyone is not her mother....and that was the point that my T was trying to impress on her....but realizing....this is a sub conscious response or reaction? And in watching him now...and trying to apply the things my wife has said like "is this being kind?".....or....."is this being Nice?"....when she will interrupt me or stop me....from speaking at times which is kind of an unusual thing for a person to ask right then when you are just "speaking normally"...and there is not anger involved? I am coming to some conclusions here based on my own experience with being relentlessly criticized and personally "attacked" as means to control you or put you down.....that you do developed a lot of "sensitivities" in these areas....unless you developed some effective means to defend yourself and unfortunately as it appears to me...that neither my wife or her brother....learned any of these skills and all they did was "react in kind...with equal force"...as I now beginning to picture better? Kind of "hair trigger" I might add..which is really a problem for me if you can imagine?
There is a difference between ( as I am now seeing better )...a Master manipulator....like my father....and possibly...and more rudimentary version....like I saw ( just a glimpse ) at time with my wife's mother even though I never saw her get angry...but I have heard? A person with so little personal power...that they have to resort to pulling a "real gun out"...and waving it around and then it goes off ( I don't think by accident either ) but without the wear for all to consider where that bullet might go? Is a pretty rudimentary version of the same thing in comparison but in the case of what experienced.... a Master can put the knife in your back without you even realizing it...that is how good a Master can wield this "skill"...if you can call it that?
And I don't want to beat around the bush here as far as what I know and been told by my T to put this into proper perspective. My father had what might be more commonly understood as "Socio-pathic" tendencies or fell into the classification of Anit-Social Personality...but not as a diagnosable 'disorder" to be clear? A person like this has a conscience and can show remorse....but to the point....that is more of an inconvenience even if they know the difference between right and wrong? To the point....that they can continue doing what they know is wrong...and still not be affected by it or as said...."moved" to do anything about it? Doing "good"....is seen more of an inconvenience to them...and just something to work around..... and work around....in that respect...comes with a host of undesirable traits and skills and one of them being....a "Hot Head". I get from my T as he told me privately...that he feels that my wife's mother was just the "not very skilled version" of the same thing?
A "Hot Head" in that respect...is not impulsive behavior and impulsive anger as is seen with ADHD as my understanding of this which I will concur? Inconsistently being a "Hot Head" or running "Hot and Cold" is what I think most people with ADHD who have a tendency to flashes of anger........is exactly what he said....inconsistently consistent...depending on?
A "Hot Head" in terms of a person who is more "consistent" in nature...is a Hot Head....is a Hot Head.....all the time as I understand this myself personally from own experience with this? And that is exactly what I don't experience with my wife who is the more Hot and Cold version? And actually.....she is not "Hot and Cold" as a consistent way of being....only when she feels threatened out of self protection and fear which by no means...is an excuse for being "threatening and abusive" herself even if she feels she is only trying to defend herself in that....it is her subconscious trying to defend itself from what her subconscious believes it is seeing and that is a problem and her subconscious is the thing that is 'wrong" in what it thinks it's seeing most of the time? That Fear Biter effect....may be for good reason....but when you're the one who's getting your hand bite off every time you get near a person like this....it doesn't really matter how they got that way? Know what I means? LOL
And in that much....my wife is just preaching to the choir and it's not a competition. He or she who had it worse....doesn't cross the finish line first and in that much...I do know what I am talking about personally and that is just something....you need to get over yourself as a responsibility to others? You don't get to "bite" the hand that feeds you...and then roll over on your back and whimper and play the poor victim and beg for compassion and mercy continuously for crying out loud!! That....is just pathetic....which is the only emotion or feeling I have in the moment right after getting bit!!! LOL
Time to buck up...and get a hold of yourself and join the real world where everyone is NOT....just like the two poor examples of parenting and I no that without question? So when my wife starts rolling on her back and playing the victim right after she lunged out and bit your Damn hand off......I am not feeling it right in those movements....to be all that forgiving if she cannot get her shit together and get a handle on this? She is "preaching to the choir" with me at least...and that is a responsibility and her "duty" to others and Me especially since I have to live with this and that is totally not acceptable which is why I am now being rather insistent that she stop this non sense and quit seeing enemies around every corner where ever she goes but especially ....with me? I am not her enemy....but she treats me as such and that is already past the point of "getting old". And then some!! LOL
This is where....my good example in my coach comes into play and I can use that as my means to give me some guidance in this area? And when you boil this all down to it's lowest common denominator......"shock and awe"....all at once...and then coming right back down to being a decent caring person and not staying angry, hurt, upset, begrudging, or any other undesirable quality left over after wards...is a great skill to have and to have it...you've got to own it first? When you own it...there is no fear involved and you speak with the same authority and wield it...not just react out of control and in panic or emotional frenzy and think the world is coming to an end when it's not. The is specific thing...attached to a specific anger...and for a specific reason that is clear to everyone including the recipient of said...such anger?
But more over....the skill that I am thinking about in terms of my swim coach he had and processed...was to humiliate you while full well dong it for that same kind of specific reason and is attached to a specific thing....that you know you did wrong!! LOL And this is what I do have a lot of experience with my self and what I share with my swim coach ( which I always had this sense from him without question ) that he may have given me a wrap on the knuckles at times playing the serious fearless leader...and then once he walked around the corner...would be laughing at my creatively at "punking people" as a practical joke? And while this technique will probably not work with my wife in that respect...what worked for me as a Master "punker"...was to get "punked right back" better than I could do it myself? ( touche' ! ) I think matching fire with fire..and knowing which flame to use...is the key to success here when getting someones attention in a different way than with words? LOL
I do have to admit however...in respect to my swim coach. He and I shared a couple of features that I think he recognized the same as I did.....and as it said in the article I included about him? The "sparkling eyes of a jokester". If I had to give myself credit where credit is due....he and I share this quality..and recognize it ...in other people as well? My wife is not one of "those people" so I can't capitalize on this strength per se in exactly the same way...but the methodology could still be applied but differently...with a sense of humor and that is a strength of mine....so using that as a weapon in this case....is a good weapon to have? As my wife views this from her perspective is...that is being mean?
What she is not realizing and not recognizing as I am getting a clearer picture here.....that that is NOT being mean at all.....that is allowing dignity and showing a great deal of empathy and compassion while still getting the message across without showing anger in order to do it and in respect to the way my coach did this with me....not a drop of revenge or retaliation what so ever....on my behalf which is the only thing that I saw and the only thing that showed through to me.......but just speaking it in a different language that she doesn't understand herself? She interprets everything through the same lenz..which says....."help me, help them, help everyone from anything or anyone who is "mean".
The only person in my wife's life as far as I can tell or see who was "mean"....was her mother . Bottom line. When she stops defending her God Damn deviant mother...will be the day she wakes up and smells the bacon...IMHO.
And Thanks as usually for lending an ear NON. I get you get....exactly what I am saying?:)
I agree. You have protected
Submitted by Almost Done on
I agree. You have protected him from the natural consequences of his actions.
Up until recently, I took care of the finances. It stressed me out. After reading the book, I took a different approach in asking to share the burden and stress of the job. I told him that I couldn't do it anymore and that so far we have just tried harder to do the same thing, but the end result is that it all falls back on me. I wanted to try something completely different. So, I split the bills so that what I am responsible for eats up almost all of my paycheck (so I can't be relied on as a source of "magic money"), and what he is responsible includes the monthly expenses like groceries, entertainment, etc. Granted, it has only been a few weeks, but so far its been pretty awesome. Instead of constantly being asked if he can go do something or buy something, he has to figure out how to fit it into the budget. Instead of wasting money a couple dollars at a time, he is more aware of how his daily purchases affect the overall budget. Now, I don't know if he is still making these daily purchases as I refuse to be involved in the nitty gritty. What I do know is that this week he is on-call and so far is working his on call hours in addition to his normal workday where usually he would slack off on his normal work day if he worked an on call hour or two the night before, so opportunities for overtime and to build a cushion were blown off before, he is (so far) recognizing that every hour he can work is needed.
It is okay if the consequences of his actions (not working or contributing to the household) include separation and divorce. It is okay to protect yourself and your children and let him go.
Talk isn't so cheap
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Look - if you want to communicate with your partner, there are several ways to do it: physically (affectionate touch means 'I care about you'); verbally (talk); body language (open postures mean "I'm ready" while closed mean "go away") and magically. Most struggling couples don't have easy access to the physical communication because that part of their relationship has broken down, people with ADHD often have trouble reading the emotional and body language of others accurately; magical and mind reading is out - that leaves talk. Regardless of whether or not your partner is impatient with your talking, there are ways to keep his attention:
"Now and not now" doesn't mean you can't talk with each other - it means that people with ADHD must have special reminder systems; that they must bring something into the present to be able to deal with it. But they CAN deal with it if other stuff (such as resentment/defiance or distraction) isn't getting in the way.
Don't mistake avoidance behaviors with inability to do something. If your husband needs stuff put in a language that makes it relevant to him, that makes him no different from anyone else on the planet. The only difference between a non-ADHD partner and an ADHD partner in this department is that non-ADHD partners have a much higher tolerance level for doing stuff that they don't like much (i.e. doesn't have an instant reward) and (in many cases) the executive function to visualize the future and what happens if X isn't completed.)
I encourage you to persevere - perhaps even asking your husband how you might talk with him in a way that makes it easier for him to listen to your requests.
Thank you, Melissa
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I appreciate everything in your post, every bullet point!
"Find a time without other distractions," at least as I'm looking for that time with my husband, is a little difficult because he's apparently got quite a dose of the "inattentive" in the ADHD cluster. What has helped us, is not so much that I go looking for a time when he's unoccupied in his mind, or less occupied, or not hyperfocusing, or not working... viewed from the outside, it doesn't look to me like there's ever a time that he's not doing 2 or 3 things, if not more, in his head (his sound and sight exterior stimulation is on very often all the time, in the house, aka TV on, music on, multiple desktop screens, listening to music as he works). What has worked, and it depends on his good will, of whihc he has an abundance. is that I request his attention for something for which his attention is really necessary and tell him how long I will need his attention. It seems to help him to have the opportunity to say, "no not now" or "yes OK I'll pay attention" and know that he'll only need to give me his attention and interact with me for, say, 45 seconds or 2 minutes, and that I'll release him back to his other thoughts in 45 seconds or 2 minutes. But then of course I have to be true to my word and get it said, and hear back from him in whatever I said, 45 seconds, or 2 minutes, and then let him go back to whatever multiple things are going on in his environment, with which he has filled his attention, plus whatever is going on in his head. Getting ready for, and having Big Talks about important, ongoing matters takes considerably more choreography between us.
Thanks again. I really think that short back and forth that you mentioned is very important.
WOW De Ja Vou!!! LOL
Submitted by kellyj on
We had a snow storm here last night ( still going ) and everyone is snowed in until the roads get plowed and my wife and are in that non distracted space where we have no where to go at the moment and ironically....everything you said seems to apply. We just had a productive talk about what I had just mentioned in using the "fear biter" example of a dog to start with and talk about this more? I am that same way myself but a little differently that my wife...so I did include myself into that description right from the start as an introduction to our talking about this that was really effective way of getting past the defenses with each other?
I had also shown my wife the article about my coach the other day to show her my example of a good motivator which was his gift you might say? As I explained....he could tear you down...and build you back up....but he did it always in a way that left you feeling one thing? Motivated...and wanting to please him.
That statement was one that everyone who knew him said about him and it said it in clear "text"....again...right in that article and to me personally...it was no surprise to hear others say the same thing as I have always said about him myself? If there was one thing you could say to sum up the effect of how he did this.....that statement would define the results of his methods as "the end result always."
That was the "magic"...right there and I do have at least one "magician" I can use and copy from in order to do the same thing?
And through a very productive talk, that started out with my wife saying that if we can't get past our conflicts then she can't be here anymore? That is speaking to the problem but without a means to get there obviously? So with in how I approached her using this "fear biter dog" approach.....she started making some admissions about herself and she said...( she is beginning to see more and more? ) which include:
-lazy speech patterns and incomplete way of communicating that is unclear to others which she showed just happened to her in a text she sent this morning where the person responding didn't interpret her correctly and thought she meant something different than the way she said it? I cannot tell you what a joy it was to hear her say this? Lazy in respect to as she put it...."well I just assume that others understand things at times...without actually saying it out loud? And then said...."I don't know but it seems like it's just so hard to do things sometimes even when they are things I want to do?"
Preaching to the choir there girl...I know the feeling well? LOL Writing as I have been so much...has forced me to do this and improve better here myself which is the benefit of reading what you write afterwards to see how well you can understand yourself? LOL If you can't understand yourself speak or write....then that's a problem one might think? LOL
- She said "most of what I do is based on fear in fact...fear seems to be my motivator in everything....but showing fear as I see it is a sign of weakness so in order not to be "weak"...I put up anger and intimidation as means to not be weak?
Fear and intimidation huh? ( that was the hugest biggest and most valuable observation of herself...that my wife has ever made to me openly right there? )
As I replied "like a fear biter dog " perhaps?" BINGO!! Nail on head!! LOL
And I told her openly but now without the anger in the moment....."you know, the extreme version of this is being a bully...don't you know? "
And she replied...."well I have been told that I can kind of "steam roll" people and I guess that is what they meant that I can be somewhat bullying at times and I do know I do this which is just part of my issues with other people. As I have been told?" In my interpretation of "steam rolling"...might be a little different than bullying in that being highly assertive or overwhelming someone overtly is not always bullying but what the hey......the connection was made and now we were able to discuss this and get down to a couple of tools that we both seemed to agree on...as what we need to work on independently of each other and the other admission that my wife made was her tendency to "dismiss" people which she said she realizes is not a good quality she has?
And with that...I told her a couple of things that I think we could focus on as a bottom line for us both to work on based on the "feedback"...that we have given each other during any heated moments together?
As I told her...."my issue...comes from telling someone repeatedly...to stop and desist. And when they don't heed my warning...I get angry and am not very forgiving as a means to teach them a lesson?" That is my own rationalization for getting angry and not being bery nice about it either? Not nice...or kind about it....which is what my wife has said to me? I don't react instantly..and I give plenty of warning ahead of time....but in my mind...that should be enough for anyone hearing me...and that's when I blow my cool.?
Those should be's are red flags for a rationalization right there? I should not blow up ....even if....a person chooses to ignore me so my excuse in not being Nice or Kind...comes in those moments? I still have a right...to say something in those movements if that person is causing me distress or harm and I have told them repeatedly to STOP!! And they won't?
The way in which to correct this for myself...is to do this another way and especially with my wife since...she just doesn't respond to this at all...unless there is some kind of consequence but...what that consequence is...is still open for more discussion? In the mean time....being kinder and nicer about doing it...is now what we agreed will help?
On her end....I gave her two things to work on from my perspective.
-Speak in complete sentences and in complete train of thought. Make no assumptions that what you said is understood..and stop dissmissing.
Bottom line? She needs to be more respectful because being disrespectful....causes others not to be very motivated in doing things for you even if you are Nice and Kind...at all other times? Get rid of the dismissing and get rid of the assumptions....and speak...respectfully and all that is left is kind and nice which is exactly what would it would be without those two things involved right from the get go?
And with me....even if I am justified or have given the person a 3 strikes and your out warning ahead of time...finding a different way to let that person know...is now what I am going to be working on in finding a better "consequences"....for someone failing to listen and heed me when I say STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING...RIGHT NOW!! It is what I do and I cannot deny this? As I feel...3 chances and 3 warnings to stop and then they won[t do it....pretty much give me free license to bring the hammer down and I do know this works? But it doesn't work here...so I need to find a better way?
And I realized in both of our cases...the failure on our parts with each other? Is that "magic" my swim coach had the agility to do...and still get angry when appropriate..in the proper dose and followed up with an equal amount of "building up"....along with the "tearing down".
Actually.....if you bring into play here that 1 to 5 John Gottman's ratio ( negative to positive )....not equal amounts but unequal amounts to put this better? And without knowing any better...I think my coach had that one down to an Art form ? It gives me some things to think about....but mainly...it was the "talk" that served to do this..and it started out on the right foot I think? I think that is the magic right there...and I am going to start applying it to our conversation which was a good one in figuring out how to avoid conflict and find resolution?
I am in similar situation--non-working husband
Submitted by doublej on
My husband wasn't getting a job--wasn't looking for a job--and really, not taking care of the family. It's been over a year.
I filed for divorce in November. He won't leave the house and I can't force him to leave, legally. So now I am in a limbo period until the court can settle it. It's like having a pleasant roommate, except I'm still paying all the bills.
Exactly what I was thinking
Submitted by overwhelmed wif... on
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the previous response. Dagmar, I doubt you made him the errand boy. I'm sure it didn't start out that way, if your situation is anything like mine. In my situation, I went into the relationship expecting that we would each do our best. But my husband not only didn't do his best, he didn't do anything at all. And I was left holding the bag. And so I ended up doing everything that was important, everything that we couldn't mess up with. And once we had children, the amount of important things grew greatly. And every so often I would share with my husband that I was upset by the imbalance in our family work, so he would ask what he could do and that made me happy and I would tell him. And he would do a little bit of what I told him. And sometimes he would do it in a way that made much more work for me than if he had never done it at all. And sometimes I would just think, "oh well, I guess I can't trust him to do this, I need to keep doing this myself." And sometimes I would talk to him about it and he would tell me that I had to spell it out for him. And over time, it seemed like the only way things got done would be if I spelled them out for him. And that's how he became the errand boy.
Believe me, I would love for my husband not to be the errand boy. I wish he had initiative. I wish he were willing to think for himself. I wish he could understand how to break up a task into parts to make it manageable. But he can't. And so I either have to do it myself or have him do it as errand boy. This is definitely something I would ever choose and if he resents it, I resent it more. And if he resents it, I resent him for resenting it, because this setup is the only way he manages to do about 3% of the family work while I do the other 97%. So sorry errand boy, but I think you got the sweeter deal.
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I am asked to spell things out in such excruciating detail, in a way I never would for another person, especially someone of that age. I mean, if I did, I would KNOW that I was being condescending and obnoxious to that person and I WOULDN'T DO IT but my H asks me to do it and then is offended when i do and still screws up. Or he'll do a little to show he's making an effort. I am the queen of live and let live at work and with the kids- don't care to dictate how someone does something as long as it gets done.I hate being micro-managed and assume others are the same. A not so small part of me thinks it is passive aggressive behavior and he screws up on purpose so that he is never asked to do whatever it is again because he doesn't want to do scut work either. I know planning and figuring out steps in a process is not a strong point for ADHD folks but I get tired of it. I get tired of having to be the director. Details aren't important, but this year's taxes? Whew. First, there was something he was supposed to change last year and didn't. I reminded from time to time. Didn't do it. Wouldn't even give me a current paycheck to verify. WTH. I asked him to make the same change this year and he said he'd get to it in June. June? Why June? What's different then? More time to "forget" to do it. More nagging required from me? Another thing I have to follow up on? OR he could just do it. Another way to refuse to cooperate with a basic piece of life? Tell me he won't do what I ask? Put up a barrier when we really need those withholdings changed? Or he'll magically become a competent financial manager by June? I needed a specific piece of information to file. I was begging for it until 9pm last night so who got to stay up to finish? Me. And gosh darnnit I need that filed asap so I can get a timely transcript for college financial aid, but that's my problem, not his.
So, yeah, I get errand boy. I'm not happy about it either. Is it fear of doing wrong? Desire to not be bothered? Belief that is my job (I think this is a big one). IDK. I just know that it leaves me holding the bag. I sure wish I could pass off taxes and some other crappy work to someone else JUST ONCE Take the taxes to be prepared? Sure, except that I'm trying to save every penny to pay down his debt. And it would come out of my budget, not his. And... I'd still be rushing to do it today because he held out on providing required information. Make him take the taxes to be prepared? Nope nope nope. Last time I did that he came home telling me we owed $12,000 and couldn't understand why that wasn't the case and didn't understand to question the tax preparer. Net effect? He spent two hours on the job and I spent another 6-8 hours providing documentation to the tax preparer because he didn't properly explain the circumstances. I understand. My H will do what I call the $10 an hour jobs - things that are just labor or not important and things that I could easily farm out elsewhere. I hate it. I really really hate it. I hate it when I get a kid into college and his contribution is loading the car with dorm supplies and driving to campus. You know what I mean. Same story ALL THE TIME. I really do not like the disrespect for my time when I have to go in afterwards and do damage control. Like you said, some things have to be done because they are too important to let go.
I'm especially irritated today because I really hate doing taxes especially when I'm stonewalled. Seriously, had to bribe myself with a new pair of shoes to make myself sit down to do it. There is no intrinsic motivation for me to do taxes.
Even if I don't verbalize my frustration, I'm sure my body language gives me away because it's so hard not to. I'm not a poker player or an actress.
And so I either have to do it myself or have him do it as errand boy. This is definitely something I would ever choose and if he resents it, I resent it more. And if he resents it, I resent him for resenting it, because this setup is the only way he manages to do about 3% of the family work while I do the other 97%. So sorry errand boy, but I think you got the sweeter deal.
Yes, I resent that he resents it. I resent that I don't at least get appreciation for it. I resent that when I turn to him and say we owe money because you didn't make the changes I requested. I changed on my end but you didn't.... and he looks at me like I have 3 eyes and am speaking Chinese and like it has nothing to do with him at all.
Quite a long time ago, I realized that all I had was an errand boy. I'm sure that he has a fear of failure or a fear of disappointing or just plain doesn't know how to do a lot of things but the way you learn is by doing. No one gets a life manual with detailed instructions.
So, what happens in a situation like this is that one person takes on all of the important tasks for good reason. You learn by doing so get good at doing them. You develop confidence and competency. The other person doesn't so the gap widens over time and the frustrations grow and differences in skill level, attitude and initaitve that were not so apparent and manageable at the beginning becomes a huge chasm over time. If there is no desire or opportunity to talk about it and figure out equitable ways to split chores and responsibilties over time - you get errand boy.
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I'm agreeing with JJamiesaon on this one - do what you need to do to take care of stress (including figuring out how not to do things or to delegate them to other people). Second, it's likely he's tuning you out when you give him all those instructions - that's like giving instructions to a 6 year old and he likely feels that way. If he is going to pick up the gift cards, the only really salient info is how much you both think should be spent on them and what account the money is in. He can come to you and ask if he can't figure out where...or ask a store clerk or...
As for doing it now, I would suggest you don't. Rather, just let your husband know that it's still on his plate, and you don't have time. If the gifts end up being late because he doesn't get it done exactly on time even that isn't really a big deal. You can call the folks in question and say "your gifts are on the way - just in time for the New Year's clearance sales!"
We all kill ourselves with deadlines, but often the deadlines aren't really critical. This could be one of those cases.
Bottom line - try not to tell him how to do stuff; make yourself available if he has questions; make sure he understands it's still on his plate without nagging him about it.
Definitely tuning me out
Submitted by Dagmar on
I agree he's tuning me out, but "I didn't know what to do" has always been an excuse in the past.
And I do often let things go like this, but it always comes back on me. Years ago, before we were married, I used to select, pay for and wrap all the Christmas gifts for both his and my families. One year I told him that I was no longer buying for his family - they were his responsibility.
He didn't get them anything, said they wouldn't notice, and I ended up with his 5 young neices in a circle around me asking in front of everyone why I didn't get them a gift.
It was embarrassing and he did not bail me out.
As I write this, I'm wondering why I was dumb enough to marry this guy.
For the nieces
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
The answer to the young nieces is "Christmas is about giving and sharing - and in our family we all take turns for buying gifts. We all love you a lot - so please direct your questions about the gifts to your uncle, whose turn it was to find you the perfect gift. Perhaps you can convince him to do this now, since the spirit of giving continues beyond Christmas day."
You can't take on his responsibilities - and you need to be unapologetic about it. Not your job to get in the middle between him and his relationships with others - or to protect him. (And by reinforcing how much you love your nieces, you protect them by letting them know that love and gifts are not synonymous - a very good lesson!)
As for why you married him - there was a good reason, I'm sure, and that reason is still inside there somewhere, even if it is obscured at the moment by the issues between the two of you. I regularly see couples refind those qualities - but it's harder if you are in 'beating myself up because I made a mistake' mode and have already judged the outcome of really working together.
Don't take that as a criticism - it's not meant to be one (writing is hard to communicate with sometimes!) What I'm trying to say is don't get in your own way by losing hope...rather, look for ways that are impactful and make a difference in terms of getting him on board to help you solve the issues. That is the only way that your situation will change.
Been in Dagmar's shoes too
Submitted by adhd32 on
I did ask H to help and put responsibility for his family's gifts on him. His family ended up with nothing and my family received gifts I purchased. Thankfully the gift exchanges were separate, can you imagine having everyone together and not giving gifts to half the room while the other half looked on? Afterward, I got a speech about how I ALWAYS favor my own family and he was embarrassed in front of his family because they gave us gifts. When I pointed out that he was supposed to take care of his family's gifts he stormed away mad; it is somehow my fault in his head. He said I should have reminded him. I don't remind because that is something he claims is nagging. I feel wrong no matter what I do and many can understand why we just take it on and avoid these ridiculous confrontations. How can one deal with this realistically?
How is the recipient supposed to feel when we arrive empty handed? I understand letting ADD spouse take his lumps because of his own irresponsibility but frequently the spouse is collateral damage and ends up looking like a social dolt. His behavior has cost him invitations with his friends and he complains to me about not being invited when he finds out about things later on, yet, he doesn't actively keep up with his friendships. I keep up with my friends and it irritates him that we do girls nights or trips. I think his expectation is that I am supposed to be in touch with his friends and keep a social calendar for him too.
Duty vs Responsibility?
Submitted by kellyj on
I think even the word responsibility is easy to get confused with duties which keeps things separate? I know for myself...if I can separate the who from the what...all is left is duty. Duties are things like picking presents or any kind of errand to run or chore to do? There are no shared duties if a duty...only requires one person to do it. If it's your's and your's alone... either you do it...or you don't do it which makes it easier to place the who from the what as I said? Shared responsibilities are much harder to differentiate and if you see things as duties ( or your job and it's clearly defined by the duties involved )....then those all belong to whom ever those belong too?
I know this doesn't solve the problem....but it's hard to argue when you fail at your duty as long as it is clear exactly what it is...separate, from anyone else? How many times ( maybe not ) have you seen a Baseball game....with both players running towards the fly ball and get there and neither one catches it and if falls to the ground? That usually happens....when the ball falls in between the two out fielders responsible area right in the middle and neither one is clear exactly who's responsible for catching it...even though both players are standing there and both could easily have caught the ball?
Who can you blame for that one...and who is charged with the error? The answer there is......no one? If you get my meaning?
Ha ha J ....about the baseball analogy....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
My take on that?........if one of the 2 has adhd ....they are going to stand there and say.....what ball?.......while the other is running like a fool to keep it from hitting the ground......even tho they BOTH knew their duties/responsibilities concerning the "job".....LOL!! How ever.....if the "player" drops the ball it is clear cut whose fault it is......while the other one......still doesn't understand.......or so they "claim"
Ha! Good One!! I've Got One
Submitted by kellyj on
One has ADHD and one does not.....and they both arrive at the ball at the same time coming down. The ADHD person thinks....ah....they'll get it..and the non ADHD person thinks...would I get or not....I'[m not sure and hesitate and the ball falls to the ground.....and the ADHD person goes.....why didn't you catch it....you cost us the game!!!
With me on the other hand ( the hero of this play!! LOL ) actually not the hero....just know better now!! I would instantly dive for the ball and catch if I could? Why....because I know what the ADHD person is thinking....that's why? No hesitation what so ever!!! LOL
There you go!! The key here is.....think ADHD but only do what you have to...and nothing else except in those kinds of situations....with no hesitation if this hasn't been discussed ahead of time!! If you assume it will happen....chances are better than not...that it won't? That's why....never assume anything.....speak and say it and tell them straight up....if you don;t do this...it won't get done so the pressure is on and there are no do overs!!!
I'm not even kidding here? At least for me....if there is any way out of it or I can wait and procrastinate...it is more likely I will and will actually forget? If you tell me in advance that this is do or die....I'll do it every time and do it earlier than later in that case? Think...opposition ally ( not adversarialy!! ). The oppositional mind says....do the opposite of what is said so reverse psychology and putting the pressure on that way....will work like a charm!!
It's why...enabling won't work
nagging won;'t work
anger and rejection won't work
but pressure actually works.....by the pressure of getting it done since that pressure is the thing you want to get rid of...and do it as soon as possible to make it go away but voluntarily? The opposite of what you might think? So is you are afraid it won't get done...and then save it until it needs to get done hoping the put the pressure on that way....absolutely will not work!! The opposite of what you should do? That is...give a time range...but not too much time range ahead of time thinking this will work? It won't...it will slip through the cracks so that won't work either.
I think what will work is to say exactly what I just said. Give the deadline within a week or less but at least a few days ( 3 minimum ) and say it's extremely important and this time or this thing....is not like other things and it really really needs to be done without error or slip ups and now....heres your chance to prove yourself and I have every confidence in the world and trust that you can take care of this...so I'm going to forget about it now....and let you have the ball!!
Like the opposite of the other example I used the other day where you walk the ball over to them...and say "excuse me...but I think this belongs to you..and then walk away?" That one only works....when your accused of being the one.....who hesitated after the ADHD person yelled....."I got it"...and then blamed your for dropping the ball. lol
At least for me if I had my preference exactly the way it will work best.....this is what I would ask for...if I got that option to choose from? When I forget things...it's always in the moment? If I get more than one moment or chance to remember.....eventually I will if I am given enough chance to fail. Expect failure in the moment.....but not completely! ( total malfunction and catastrophic failure )
I think that is the biggest problem of all really? If someone see's me make a mistake or fail once during the process.....then it's over....it's catastrophic and he will never remember so I have to do it!!!
Pretty soon....you only see the misses....and miss the completion since you start trusting it will never happen....instead of trusting it will but with 3 attempts....just like Baseball?
Truly!! Think about Babe Ruth which you may not know this but.....Babe Ruth had one of the highest strike out averages during the time he played. Higher than any almost any other player on average at the time? ( if memory serves me ) He also set the all time home run record in history, as well as on average... more RBI's ( runs batted in ) and crossed home plate alone....more than anyone in history until 1974 when Hank Aoron finally beat it? Hank Aoron...didn't have as many strike outs or RBI's either?
And the Boston Red Sox....didn't mind either? 3 world series titles in 6 years...ain't too shabby!! I don't think they were hassling him too much...when he struck out if you think about it!!! LOL Let the Boy...Boogie Woogie and see what he's made of and don't keep track of the times he fails!! That's the point if you didn't get it context? lol
PS Performance anxiety is the problem. If YOU are the pressure.....that will not work!! If the pressure...is only from the job.....this will work!! See the difference? Best if avoidance is of the job...than you anyway right? If you can't beat em....join em.
FYI: Which reminds me thinking about video games? I'm not a big video game player and get bored really quickly with them? On the other hand....my wife and I were over at a friend of her's house ( the woman with ADHD ) an they are BIG on the game Guitar Hero! I had never played it before...but you know....it was kinda fun...but only because you were playing it with other people otherwise...I was good for about 1/2 hr....and would have called it quits since this isn't my cup of tea? It's what made me think of it since we played it together for and 1hr and 1/2...and I was into it...as long as I was playing with other people? Just a thought when saying beat em or join em and joining em....in play if video games are the "thang"...seems to make sense to me all said and done?
My Husband's Family
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Super interesting topic. This came up for us this Christmas as well. I have one child, my husband has three children and two grandchildren. Sometimes he is super embarrassingly overgenerous with his gifts, and sometimes he gives nothing. So I imagine, in the end, it works out.... ish. LOL. He went to Toys R Us and bought 600 dollars worth of Star Wars toys for his brothers kids who he never sees but nothing for his own daughters.
I have decided on my part to give gifts separately from him, without going overboard. I have been making things the last couple of years, because I don't have a ton of money (usually birdhouses, ornaments, candles, etc). I try to personalize it as much as possible. If I have money, I usually give a VISA gift card or a gift certificate for a night out. If I don't have money, I don't .
This year, he didn't want to buy gifts for his kids until he got to Toronto which was a day before we were opening presents. So be it. I could just imagine what was going to happen, and it did. He ended up buying Star Wars gift ornaments at the movie theatre at 1am the day before we were opening presents. Fortunately, there were so many presents, it didn't matter. His kids are also old enough now that it it doesn't matter. He is generous with them in other ways, and I think they mostly see that.
Honestly, I wouldn't take care of his gift giving or his social life. When I started this relationship, I had so many balls up in the air trying to manage my own life (which is already stretched thin) and then his life (trying to stop him from hurting or being hurt by his ADHD). I was very unhealthy. He doesn't blame me for his mistakes fortunately, a blessing, really. If he did, I would happily and calmly hand that right back to him and try not to take it personally if he reacted.
We are both happier managing our own lives. And I think he needs to live with his mistakes. And I try to somehow manage my own gift giving responsibilities without his input. We live in a time of extreme excess so I try to be responsible, useful, and thoughtful with my gifts.
For the past 10+ years, we
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
For the past 10+ years, we seem to be seeing more and more of this....men who won't work or won't work full-time because they have wives/GFs who are picking up the slack. It ends up being a vicious circle. The men lose their self-esteem because they're not providers, and the women are at their wits-end because they're doing EVERYTHING....while they have a lazy grown-ass person who isn't pulling his own weight!
My mom and I were talking about this and she said that this wouldn't have happened in "her day" because few women with children worked so "men with issues" or ADHD had to work whether they liked it or not. They would have faced huge societal pressures if they didn't work. My mom said that she only knew one man who didn't work and he left the family, likely out of embarrassment (probably moved back home and mooched off his parents). That may sound worse, but at least the wife didn't have to support his lazy butt while supporting the kids.
I'm not suggesting that women shouldn't work...not at all. I'm just saying that there are certain men who will take advantage of that and "not get their shit together" to keep a job to keep a roof over their family's head!
OW The Past is Gone
Submitted by kellyj on
There is no "should be" as far as the past is concerned? I see this as a real problem and it's not a problem with men or woman. It's the thinking that's the problem and it's base on an assumption only? The key sentence that caught my eye is ..."The men lose their self-esteem because they're not providers"
Who says? I'll tell you what I think is the problem...and it's in what you said here "They would have faced huge societal pressures if they didn't work. My mom said that she only knew one man who didn't work and he left the family, likely out of embarrassment (probably moved back home and mooched off his parents)."
There is no requirement...that says a man has to be a "provider" unless that is agreed upon up front that he will before you have children. Agreed upon and talked about ahead of time that the man is accepting this role and responsibility and nothing is assumed? It is both...presumptuous to think this based on the past? The past is long gone and it will never ever be that way again? Time moves on and thing change and the only thing you can't count on besides death and taxes is change in itself? If this out mode way of thinking is what someone want to do...then so be it and there is nothing wrong with that? But to assume...this is what will be and not talk about this ahead of time and agreed upon openly with a hand shake then there is failure in communication on someone part if that conversation didn't take place ahead of time? I say that because that would have been a deal breaker right there for me? If that was stated to me as if....this was assumed or what a prospective partner wanted in her view of what a marriage is.....I would have respectfully passed and looked for someone else? Done deal.
Both my sisters have children and a family and both of them worked. But more importantly....and giving my parents credit where credit is due...my older sisters both went to college and got careers started before they got married and never had in their mind that a "man" was to support them ever? They stood on their own two feet and didn't need a man to support them at all and these were the values instilled in by my parents along with the same ones for me? It just so happened...that my older sisters husband did quite well on his own and they had a surplus of income coming in...which gave my older sister the option of not working which was a luxury they could afford? Otherwise...my sister would have continued with her career as planned?
The work ethic that I was raised in said....everyone works...not matter what gender you are? There is no division of labor as far as income is concerned. Each person works and contributes to the pot. It doesn't matter who makes more since it all goes to the same place and there is no "provider". Everyone "provides". Everyone works. Everyone is responsible for themselves and everyone else? At least that what was taught to us and men and women are equals in every way. What makes them unequal...is the very thing you mentioned....."societal norms and constructs" which are based on the past? The past is gone...and it will never return again. There is only NOW....and the future NOW to be?
All of these things are constructs which are nothing more than an "illusion" in our minds? Without the constructs there to distort the present....there would be no pressure to worry about....and no shame or guilt to go around? The idea of "fair" is based on illusion....if that is not agreed upon ahead of time with a hand shake openly and discussed ahead of time?
In the world and family I grew up in. Men and women were equals..and this was promoted and taught to us by my mother? And she was a woman...and a stay at home mom? I have to give my mother credit...for having the where for all the vision of the future...to no better than not to carry forward the mistakes of the past? I was not treated any different than my sisters being a boy...and the expectations that I had and was taught to me by a woman...said...woman work the same as men...and both contribute equally...children or not. No free lunch as they say...woman and men...work together, play together and earn together equally?
This agrarian culture ofr the past on the farm stead...;where children were an asset to the farm and worked the farm along with the entire family only applied to farmers? The bulk of the people in this country 100 years ago....worked under that premise? That children were an asset..and pulled their own weight and worked the farm along with everyone else....together as a team?
In todays culture....children are a financial burden in comparison? A negative drain of the economy of the family and the past no longer applies? Under the same auspices in that same agrarian culture...under the same guidelines using that same thinking that was used so long ago? Then if children don't pull their own financially (and can't contribute to the whole )...then someone has to pick up the slack and if that man is already working...then that somebody is the woman?
That was the thinking and logic behind what I was taught at least and that was my own mother talking and she definitely was a woman and a stay at home mom? The dollar has declined dramatically since the the 50's when things were golden after World War II. That was a false economy only in that 1/2 the world was destroyed...and the US was sitting in the cat bird seat? For a while at least?
We now have a global economy creeping in..and wages are equalizing throughout the world? The have not are getting wealthier...and the haves are getting poorer? The US is only suffering from denial in this case...if you cannot see what is coming ahead of you ...and you are still living in the past? For the sake of anyone reading this.....time waits for no one and as far as a woman from the 50's goes....my mother was a forward thinker and made sure we knew it? Like I said before....someone had to put that thinking in your head to begin with? It didn't come out of no where and what is fact without question...is that thinking came from the past not the present...and certainly not the future of what reality is likely to be based on the forecast of the future which is only what the past is good for? A glimpse of what mistakes were made in the past...the reason things were the way they were? The only use the past has for anyone....is to learn from so the mistakes made back then won't be repeated and learned from?
This is not really relevant to the point you were making though? The same rules apply in everything I just said but it takes the responsibility..and distributes it evenly? If woman want to shed these roles that keep them oppressed....then they need to stop playing the same roles...that keep them right where they are? At least I know a different reality...since my mother had the vision and the smarts to understand this and teach this without anyone telling her what to do? And it worked as far as my sisters go...since they have skills, education and a means to support themselves without a man doing it for them? And they both have children on top of it.......but their husbands also work as well. There is not "provider".....everyone "provides" which is ...the way it was back then too...in the days of agrarian culture too? The only difference is...;children worked the farm too..and were an asset to the family financially? Nothing changed.....except for the fact this got somehow overlooked which the changed the rules.....but no one seemed to notice? Except my mother in this case? I'm sure she isn't the only one....but she was a forward thinker and visionary none the less?
The past is not totally gone.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
The past is not totally gone. Men still feel a certain value based on their careers. Men still feel embarrassed when they're unemployed. Men still feel a need to provide for their families.
Men and women are not the same except for different plumbing. They're not.
You don't have children, so your outlook may be why you think the way you do.
Furthermore, I think you missed the point.
The men who are apt to take advantage of having a working partner are doing so....over and over again we see evidence on this website. We're not talking about Househusbands who do all the duties that a SAHM does/did. We're talking about men who behave like children-in-adult-bodies, doing no work, doing few/no house chores, making messes, blowing thru money, repeatedly losing jobs/getting fired, expecting their wives/female-partners to do everything...work full time, take care of children, take care of home.
This type of male behavior is an unintended negative consequence. My Brother in Law is a case in point. He sought out a woman who had great earning potential. He then quit his job, giving some lame reason. He claimed that he would stay home with their firstborn. After one week, he had the baby in daycare. He played video games all day long.
Yet, he's embarrassed of his situation and his lack of employment. Therefore he refuses to participate or attend ANY of his kids' activities or his wife's work functions. Why? Because he hates the inevitable questions, "what do you do for a living?" And, he hates the "look" he's given when it comes out that he hasn't worked in a very very very long time.
Do you really think that if his wife, mother of 4 children, was asked, what do you do for a living, and she answered, "I'm raising our 4 children," that she'd feel embarrassed? Or would most people look at her oddly? No.
What's the Point? OW
Submitted by kellyj on
I didn't miss the point you were making OW. What you are talking about are "Flakes". Flakes come in all sizes and genders and this is not limited to men only? There are woman who are as much flakes as men but it the societal constructs or models that I'm talking about? Apples and Oranges. Two separate things? I get the point? You are talking about Flakes? Done deal? One simple word is all that is needed to describe the very thing you are describing which is in a category of it's own....all by itself. Stand alone....or to stand out...... you might say ...in other words in using the word Flake or Flakiness?
In chronological time.....there is no past and the past is gone in respect to anything no matter what you are talking about? If you walk into the street and get run over by a car and die....there are no do overs. You can't go back and redo time to make it what you want that happened in the past? That means...the only thing left is memory of what was at any given point in time? What you do with the next moment in time...will be determined by you....always no matter what? Unless you are imprisoned (physically)...there are no physical restraints...holding anyone back from doing anything they want as long as it is not against the Law? So if that's the case.....we are free to do as we choose always in the physical and there are no constraints or restrictions imposed or implied on anyone ever right from the get go unless you were to live in a culture or country where constraints are imposed as in a military state as in Marshall law...otherwise....we are all free to choose what we want to do ...every minute of every day no matter who you are man or woman? There are no ...."should"...........in reality?
Should : used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions. Which means?
IMHO...."should" are the weapons used by the weak minded as an excuse to defer their own personal responsibility. Should.... are the ammo used to wage war against other people. And should....had to have come from some place...or should wouldn't exist?
And to go hand in hand with "should"......you have "would"....as in......."would have?" There is no "would have" ( talking about the past here right? )...if should didn't exist?
And then or course there is "could"....or "could have"....in the past again?
So lets take a closer look here OW? Think about it? You can't have could have....would have.....without should have and all those things are talking in the past tense or the past?
And you can't have could have or would have.....unless you have should...in the first place? That is....in the present time? And since there is no such thing as time travel.....then could have would have doesn't really exist in reality since you can't go back in time and "do over" right? There is no rising from the Dead with one exception ( possibly?????)
And therefore....the past is Dead and gone...unless your Jesus or Lazereth? But even then..and even according the Bible itself....it is unclear in the wording itself and left up to interpretation?
"Take ye away the stone," the Lord said, and when He had prayed He called, "Lazarus, come forth," and Lazarus came forth, alive, and was again among his friends. The sickness was for the glory of God, for they saw the Lord's great power. It is the same power of the Lord which wakens all people, when they die, into the life of the other world. "I am the resurrection and the life," He said.
Notice the wording and how this is said? Other "world"? There is no implication made here and it very explicit? Other world.....not Heaven as in...where you go after you die ( supposedly) and this is very unmistakably clear in this example? Jesus is referring to another "world" other than Heaven specifically since Lazereth and Jesus and all these friends exist in this time and space in this story along with Lazereth himself? And it is said that the "sickness" as referred to as the cause of Lazereth's death ( implied but not stated in the physical ) only by referencing the word"grave"...and...."rolling away the stone"
If you go back to the beginning of the story here ...
Lazarus had died, and many Jews from Jerusalem were with Martha and Mary who had come to comfort them. When Jesus was near to the village, first Martha and then Mary went out to meet Him. "Lord, if Thou hadst been here, my brother had not died," they said. But they still trusted that the Lord would help them. They were weeping and the Jews were weeping who were with them. "Jesus wept." He went with them to the grave. "It was a cave in the rocky hillside, and it was closed by a stone."
I can personally draw many possible images or metaphors from this story...but personally, as it was said by Jesus himself....seeing vs perceiving? "If you do not understand this parable...then how will you understand any of the parables? There's your clue right there? "Perceptions or perceiving"....not.....seeing things at face value as they appear?
My interpretation in the story of Lazereth...as worded which goes contrary to other stories in that Heaven or the Heavenly father is not used in this story to describe the "other world"...meaning...that was not an over sight...but done with intention? Which means....the only way to resolve this from the wording itself...is to perceive the message being made in the story and not take the words literally because if you do....it doesn't make any sense? How do you resolve the words...."grave"....."stone"....."and cave in the Hillside".....in physical terms of death....if Lazereth actually died in the physical ( which is not what this story is about in my opinion )....and in the same way as the Prodigal son...story......Jesus is retelling the Prodigal son as in Lazereth....but speaking in terms of the Lord and in the NON physical sense and perceiving the story that way? Symbolically....not literally speaking otherwise there is no way to resolve the discrepancies in the wording here as in the words "other world" as to where Lazereth ( and all of them including Jesus himself at the times ) is to have said....to be occupying along with Lazereth...after his being brought back from the dead...in a spiritual sense only...not physical sense if you look closely at the wording used?
Do you only see...the literal words here and therefore there is no resolution to this quandary? Or do you perceive more from the story than meets the eye..and interpret things on a much more intellectual and get the deeper meaning of the message? One is simple minded and easy to understand...the other require more thought processing to which the goal as stated by Jesus himself said...to perceive......not see? This is absolutely clear to me and it is easy to resolve based on the words only at face value. At least.....from my perspective and using my perceptions to give me the answer?
To Percieve: "become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand"
interpret or look on (someone or something) in a particular way; regard as.
"if Guy does not perceive himself as disabled, nobody else should"
synonyms:regard, look on, view, consider, think of, judge, deem, adjudge
"she was perceived as too negative"
have a particular: opinion, belief, or idea about someone or something.
"she thought that nothing would be the same again" ( a statesman about the future but with an implied meaning that it would be negative perhaps? A sense of trepidation, regret, or of grief ....in terms of regret or to pine for something? Perhaps )
be of the opinion,
be of the view,
be under the impression;
expect, imagine, anticipate;
surmise, suppose, conjecture, guess, fancy;
conclude, determine, reason;
informal reckon, figure;
hold and state as one's opinion.
"“The man is a genius,” he opined"
"I think he's gone home" ( but your not sure )
deem, judge, hold, reckon, consider, presume, estimate; ( guessing, holding on to, judging, deeming, consider , PRESUME as in PRESUMPTION? )
regard (as), view (as) ( as if? As if WHAT? )
"his family was thought to be enormously rich" ( compared to whom? )
used in questions to express anger or surprise.
"What do you think you're doing?" (present tense action: doing as in accusation? )
used in speech to reduce the force of a statement or opinion, or to politely suggest or refuse something.
"I thought we could go out for a meal" (Past tense, thought...as in to refuse or state an opinion.....from something in the past as a means to do so? ) I thought I would? I thought I could, I thought I should? All past tense in the physical action of having a thought....when speaking in terms of.,...to " think of "used in this way? ie: Think OF YOU....Think OF ME ? As in "thoughtful". He was....or is? But which one?
Thoughtful implies thinking in the past by some past action? It does not ingere creative thought of mind or being mindful as Jesus is saying?
He is thoughtful......is a value judgment as a global label or definition of the person themselves? (inside the box ...as in...."no original thought" implied and using the same thinking or thoughts as before from the past...to form an opinion )
direct one's mind toward someone or something; use one's mind actively to form connected ideas. This implies the thought process of actively form and idea or ideas....in connected form ie: integrated thought or creative idea as in ..."to think". ( outside the box )
You asked or posed this question To Think or stop and think about?
"Do you really think that if his wife, mother of 4 children, was asked, what do you do for a living, and she answered, "I'm raising our 4 children," that she'd feel embarrassed? Or would most people look at her oddly? No."
And the answer is No as you said? And that's my point? Are you missing it here? That last sentence is making my point and that is THE SYMPTOM only of the problem...it is not the problem itself?
If you go back to the story of Lazereth...as I perceive this myself...it is written in symbolic language and not intended to be taken literally as I showed from what Jesus said himself about ALL the parables and the way or context to which they are written? I clearly get this and I can't understand this any other way? The fact the words are specific...and clearly understandable ...and the fact the the meaning cannot work any other way since there in unresolved discrepancies in the wording would point directly at what I am saying? To perceive the meaning...is to become aware of the unseen on the surface as in the literal simple understanding of the words? I can see no other way to resolve this since there is only one way you can interpret this is you follow what Jesus said using any kind of means other than logic to determine the meaning right off the bat? There really is no room for interpretation..and the wording is clear? There is only ONE right way here in what Jesus is saying and only ONE truth to the story.....no implied meaning, no speculating, no guessing, no presumption..and no implications based only on the words that Jesus said himself? The is ONE right answer and ONE right way of thinking. Perceiving and creative thought..and new ideas ONLY. No past thoughts. No past already thought of ideas. No robotic-ally copying what happened before by remote control. No serving two masters. No staying or holding onto OLD thoughts and using them to use to do things or to guide our actions or to make a new decision and then act on it. No suppose to....No should....No past thoughts what so ever. Original thought and original creative thought processes which are always a choice.....between the past and the present in thought only. Forward thinking....or....backwards Hillbilly thinking? That's the choice right there? One is growth...the other one is stagnation and festering thoughts and malignant ideas? So if you are allowing someone else to make decisions for you.....who's fault is that? That's not using your head? That's using someone else's head to do the thinking for you? You can't blame that on men if you allowed this to happen? And if someone told you these things and you just believed them blindly...then you're just running blind and you are even on 1rst base since your not even on the primitive level of seeing with your eyes yet? That's like sub-par ....less than 0 thinking right there? And all the clues are there...if you just follow the directions on the box? Seeing is "believing"...as one might say? But in appearance only in physical terms as in....only what you can see on the surface with your eyes only? And if you can only use your eyes to see? Monkey see? Monkey do? You can only "copy" what was seen before...in the past? So if someone got you to believe this non sense....then who's fault is that? Your own naivety? Or you're just to dumb to know the difference? I'm thinking about myself here in my past and that is the only excuse I have to use in my own failure here just so you know? Taking full responsibility here...for my own actions and thinking processes? Check...all the above?
Perceiving is understanding as in "consciousness"...."mindfulness"....or to be mindful? Which is another way of saying to be ...."percieveful" if there was such a word but there isn't? So mindful takes the place of "percievful" if you want to put it that way. Which is when you get down to it...or integrated thought? Integration of all your senses together to form a new idea in a creative active process and not just using the thoughts of the past to guide you and determine your actions ......IN THE MOMENT. IN THE "NOW". This is the stated goal as Jesus describes it? Conscious awareness of actions in the NOW...IN THE MOMENT...and using your brain to think......CREATIVELY AND ACTIVELY......and connecting.
And therein....lies the problem? I want to state my objection to something here that you have so eloquently said in your own words here? Restating my position again....and moving past the symptom? But first to be clear.....you have a right to think anything you want and are free to do so. Basically...you were restating your position..which is clear based on the status quo...but as I am stating my position.....it is the status quo it self as being THE PROBLEM?
As you started out saying...that you spoke to you and your mother were talking this over...and the two of you came up with the things you were saying based on the past...or what...."would have been" before? Clearly....I understand this position of the past based on your mother and what she experienced? I don't now how to interpret this any other way? I can infer from this...that there is an assumption being made here from this alone? An assumption that the past.....should be the same as the future moving forward in chronological time and space?
Original thought...is a creative process where new ideas and opinions are formed in the present time since the present consciousness...is all there is? In the NOW? There is no such thing as the future or the past....in terms of our conscious minds is there? The present moment then is all we have ever? As I stated this correctly ( in correct terminology) ....there in NOW...and the future NOW that has yet to come....only? These are irrefutable facts of evidence that you cannot deny? Well you can try...but that would be denial of what IS?
So in terms of what is possible...in reality? Reality exist on a plane in the present moment only? Fact of evidence...that no one can deny? So in terms of what is possible..to change your reality...it is only possible to effect change in the moment...to produce a desired effect you want in the future NOW...once your get there? But once you get there...it will still only be NOW? There is no other choice?
So in terms of everything negative or things we experience now that we don't like? Something had to happen....before the present time...to create these circumstance always? Cause and effect.....demand this by the restrictions and limitations imposed on us by chronologic time which we all exist in together?
So if you are going to talk in "therefore".....you need to consider the reality of what is...for everyone in a physical sense of the definition of the present time that we exist in always? There can be no time traveling involved because time travel as we know it at this time....does not exist? The only therefore is....the accumulation of memories of the past that are brought forth ( therefore ) into the present time? These are old thoughts...or thoughts passed along to us from others am I not correct? So every waking thought we have in terms of memories only...ALL come from the past and are not original thoughts but past ones brought forward in time in our memories only?
To THINK. Is to CREATE? It is not to ruminate..and regurgitate...past thoughts and memories? To do the same action ( as in thought and deed ) repeatedly....and to expect a different result in the future...is the definition of insanity? Take the word "expect" out of the sentence....and insanity no longer can exist in our minds? This is irrefutable....and cannot be argued with logically or using any other means to refute this other than.....your personal feelings and opinions...logically speaking which are all emotionally based reasoning and personal to each person individually and each person is different so there is no common language to emotions or feelings ever? This is irrefutable facts of evidence...unless I'm missing something here? If I am...I'd like to know...because I can't see an alternative to what I am saying thus far?
So lets take a closer look here..and see what we all don't want as stated in this forum many times by most who come here?
Ground Hog Day: repeating the same thing over and over?
Being stuck or trapped in circumstance you don't want to be in?
Nothing ever changes and I want my husband or wife to change? From what I might ask?
Wanting desperately for things to be different but not knowing what do to?
Bottom line is.....everyone wants things to CHANGE...and CHANGE for the better?
So it's completely illogical to want change...and not do something different? That is not only counter intuitive...but it is the definition of insanity or insane thinking which only leads to ambivalence...and ambivalence is BAD!!! The goal is NOT to be ambivalence because ambivalence is torture for your mind? What do you think mental suffering and mental and emotional pain is in the first place? It's unresolved memories of the past that get stuck and grind away relentless in ruminating thought with one wheel stuck in the ditch....spinning and going no where? It's the accumulation of all our unwanted thoughts....just grinding away in and endless effort ( a futile effort ) to get rid of them so we can stop the pain and suffering we are experiencing?
So Jesus H Christ OW.....how do you get rid of all those unwanted, unneeded, unnecessary ( shit ) that builds up over time in our heads from all those past memories NOW in the moment...that cause us to suffer....in the moment....in the present time? Keep thinking these old tired worn out OLD thoughts that someone else put there? On make up new ones creatively..and do something different? There is no playing both sides of the fence here? It either is or isn't...so which one is it? Old thoughts...or new thoughts......old thoughts from the past? Or original new thoughts that you haven't thought before?
The Past is absolutely gone for ever and there is no time travel machine or time traveling involved? Our couscous minds live in the present moment only and it's the only pace that can effect change either now or in the future?
Past is about tradition. Past is about status quo and keeping things the same and familiar. Past about being stuck and never changing. Past is about old memories and tired worn out behaviors and thinking. Past is about what ever went on before us...and past in that respect....only exists in our minds and is an illusion since we only remember things in terms of our own individual abilities to remember things accurately and even then.....someone had to start by putting those thoughts there in the first place ie: our parents just to start?
I can tell you one thing for sure in thinking about my own mother? Her ideas of what should be .....were worthless as in ....less than 0...of any value to me for myself in an on going basis? Her thoughts along these lines....came from her mother and her mother was an ignorant, uneducated, unversed and as robotic ally programmed as a person could get? My Grandmother was born in 1890 something and lived in bum Fuck no where out in the plains somewhere with limited access to anything much more than the dirt on the farm she grew up on? Everything she knew was "hear say" evidence of fact.....not factual evidence with any means to validate what she knew? My Grandmother...didn't have an original "thought" in her entire brain as far as I could tell...so when you consider the source...and with my mother just regurgitating those same unfounded and completely superstitious "ranting of lunacy" or a lunatic in those terms.....you think it was wise for me to believe her when I heard my mother Parroting the mind of a lunatic and telling me to think those same things!! YIKES!!!! My Grandmother was about as simple minded as one could possibly GET!!! You think I wanted those thoughts....disturbing and clouding my mind!!!! OMFG!!!! NO!!!!!!! And the horse they rode in on!!!!!!! LOL
Original thought is creative new thought. And since an active mind demands creative thought...then brain "inactivity" would be considered.....NOT USING YOUR HEAD ...or TO THINK? My Grandmother was the epitome...of what Jesus said not to do!!! See with her eyes only.....and not perceive anything? So anything that comes from the not perceiving mind means.....one dimensional, simple minded and weak and soft in the brain thinking since an active mind...thinks creatively and thinks or new ideas and new thoughts...instead of just grinding the old ones to death and creating a prison in your mind so to speak?
And in the exact same way I perceive the story of Lazereth....rolling away the stone.....from the grave or tomb in the side of the hillside...is symbolic language to suggest rolling away the stone in our minds and becoming reborn when we do? Reborn from the primitive sub -species thinking of our ancestors of the past to a new awareness of conscious thought? Becoming aware and conscious...and perceiving not just seeing with our eyes in a simple minded way? Simple minded like Monkey see....Monkey do and just copying what was done or what was before? Doing something different? Evolving and growing? Changing and adapting and becoming flexible instead of rigid in our thinking. All good things and things you want.....compared to all bad things and things we don't want?
So if you stand back here and look at the big picture and go with what Jesus is saying and using him as my guide here? Original thought and conscious awareness and presence of mind which is perceiving is what the goal is? How can you understand the meaning of all the other parable in the bible...is you lack the ability to perceive and are just copying what went before and using your eyes only in what it looks like?
So this is not a gender issue at all OW? Jesus didn't state it was only Lazereth who suffered and then became aware only implying only men have this problem? Woman suffer too...from the exact same problem that men suffer from and living unconsciously...and not having an original thought in your head....and just grinding the old worn out thoughts in your brain only leads to ambivalent thought....not creative thought....and creative original thinking is the only way to resolve anything and no longer suffer anymore? It's outrageous when you really think about it?
You want one thing over here....but you want it without this other things over there? You want two things that are completely inconceivable with each other...and yet you have come to some conclusion over this to form an opinion? You can't have an opinion without drawing conclusions can you? That is another irrefutable fact of evidence that I defy anyone in trying to refute or prove me wrong?
And you can't have an opinion or a judgment without drawing a conclusion or have any opinion what so ever about anything more than just how your feel personally? That is base entirely on YOU and YOU alone unless you use someone else to back you up and use them to say this is what you believe? And if you are using someone else thoughts and opinions as your own...well then you don't an original thought or idea in your mind at all? That is not using your head of thinking? That's just doing what someone else did and copying them and their thoughts and thinking and you don't have a "thought" of your own....to provide to anyone in a creative mindful way? In a conscious deliberate way as in .....To Think.
You said here OW Men and women are not the same except for different plumbing. They're not. Your are right about that but it is more sublet in what they have discovered? Remember...we all started out as zygotes in the woman as female to begin with..and the extra chromosomes causes the sex organs to differentiate into different organs but the parts are all the same...but just reorganized differently until it gets to the reproductive organs specifically and that's the plumbing you mentioned. But mem have estrogen in them..and woman have testosterone too so the hormones are ( not all ) even shared to a certain degree as well? So the subtle difference they have discovered in the brains....are only related to reproduction and reproductive activities (only ) otherwise there appears be no difference in intellectual ability or the ability to have creative thought?
So in terms of reproduction...that a physical creativity on an animal primitive level? And the drives and the impulses that are created in woman are there for one purpose only? To procreate...and that's the only difference? They are primitive impulsive that leads to impulsive emotional thinking which is exactly what men with ADHD ( and people in general ) are not wanting to do? That is a choice to have children.....no one says you have to...or that woman have to succumb to these primitive urges and drives since was are not primitive sub species without this ability?
And the same applies to men with their primitive urges and drives if they are not to act out on these primitive animal drives and urges in the same way? So to argue that men have to do this...but woman don't ...is both illogical and ridiculous in reasoning in any form other than is using these primitive sub-species urges that any animal on the planet has down to a Fluke worm in mental capacity and is totally simple minded and primitive reasoning abilities? But we as humans have the capacity for creative original thought..and animals can't do this? Animals go off distinctly only...so to argue that woman have to go with their instincts and are different is trying to apply logic and reason in the wrong way?
Both men and woman have instinctual urges and primitive impulses. Just simply succumbing to them and saying you have to is like arguing that "I want" so therefore I "should have it and that makes for a pretty poor argument from either side just because these urges are different? They are purely impulsive and illogical and there is NO REASON behind it other than to say...I have a uterus...and therefore MUST procreate!!!! Robotically and primitively speaking going off of instinct alone with no creative thought what so ever? That would make as much logical sense as a man saying....I must procreate...and therefore....act on those impulses which is not what makes men want to have sex or any desire to let me tell you!!! That may be the only difference between men and woman in the desire or wanting to have sex since women want sex just like men for the pleasure aspect but in terms of motivation goes....procreation as the only motivation would leave a man kind of flat and lifeless as far as his sex organs goes!!! LOL If you follow?? LOL There may be a few who might get turned on with idea of procreation sexually arousing...but I haven't met any who have reported as such personally. LOL
But the bottom line here is that you are right...there are these subtle differences outside of the plumbing...but they are still related to having children when it comes to these urges and primitive impulses but only a variation for obvious reasons? But it's not mandatory based on these primitive instincts alone unless you are just completely out of control of yourself and behave like an animal with animal thinking and reasoning? Animals do not create. Animals procreate. Human create. Animals don't.
And when it comes to perceiving as is the goal here to the new world Jesus was referencing in the story of Lazereth? The stone rolling away...and the resurrection in those terms happened here on this planet or world....not in Heaven as explicitly statute and clearly understandable? Perception and perceiving....not seeing and looking at things skin deep?
And the paradox when I started thinking about my Grandmother ( bless her soul ). She couldn't help that she was ignorant without the opportunity for mental advancement and had only hear say evidence to support her primitive position or thinking but.....ironically.....I have never met anyone more judgmental...and without the ability for any intellectual thought in my entire life!!! Personally? And she was self righteous....and she was rigid...and she was pushing and preaching garbage out her mouth...literally BULLSHIT that she belied because someone told her and she was just Monkey do (hear)....Monkey ( say ) in an endless stream of insane thinking and insane intelligent beliefs and ideas that I'm sure were not her own she was just passing the same bizarre and untellable illogic on as if this was what she was brought on this planet to do? She was the epitome....of seeing and interpreting the bible with her eyes and she forgot to read the label...the one where Jesus gave the main intrusion to interpret ALL the other parables in order to get "the point" he was saying? It's like Jesus was designing a test...to separate the wheat from the chaff..in order to know who is the grain...and who is the garbage? And unfortunately....my Grandmother was spewing the Garbage ( and believed it reverently and quite ignorantly )instead of the wheat...but she didn't think so....and that right there is the problem because the Grandmother didn't have an original thought in her brain....to save her own life!!!!! Succinctly put.
So there is nothing stopping woman thinking creatively and using their brain? The only thing stopping woman from being creatively perceiving and thinking outside of the box themselves is there? You are your own worst enemy always...after all you can't use that as an excuse or try to pawn that off on men? Aside from those very subtle difference in the brain that deal specifically with procreating.....men have got those too in a different way so it's not that men don't have them...they are just different but completely understandable? One is not better or worse or more difficult to overcome....just different it all...in just this one area only?..and men have to deal with them accordingly just like woman do? But the main point not to lose it here....is that always a choice? Getting knocked up accidently doesn't count...but that could be viewed as a moment of weakness or just plain old stupidity and you can't blame that on men unless you were raped against your will, which is the only exception..otherwise there is only one way to explain any of this? A victim is someone...who refuses to take responsibility for their actions? And possibly....their thoughts processes too if I wanted to make this same point I am making as well? And it's always in the moment in the present since our conscious thoughts only exist in one time and space....NOW. There in no past or future...there is only NOW this very second always and there is no way to argue anything different unless I am missing something here?
Bottom line here OW. It always a choice. No one makes you. Or there is no....have to....in anything no matter what? And those "shoulds" "woulds' "coulds" are all connecting to the past...are always connected to "backwards thinking" or the primitive mind?
Forwards thinking...is a creative process that requires all your senses working together in unison...and creating original new thought...which is the only way anything can change ever? Otherwise....you are just stuck or...... go backwards? Since without any new ideas or thoughts to work from....then the past is all you've got?
That my two bits....and I'm sticking to it.
Re: getting a cleaning person.
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
Getting a cleaning person sounds great, and it certainly would free up some of Dagmar's time.
It may not relieve the stress though. There will still be resentment on her part, because her husband won't do even a little to help out.
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm hiring some temp laborers to come and help me as well ( same difference ). I want to get square ( for once )...and get out from behind the 8 Ball. All that is left to do is clean up and removal since the technical stuff around the house and shop is already done. My wife wasn't helping but it wasn't her mess to do. Inside the house...I already told my wife I will be doing the floors from now on because this is the easiest and thing I do best anyway?
Ironically....she said, "you'll need to get a new broom, the handle is too short and it hurts my back?"
And I said "My back has never been sore from sweeping. The broom we have is just fine thanks."
And there is no resentment what so ever on either one of our accounts but, if her husband won't help...then cleaners are good advise.
Dagmar, the Christmas gift non-event, more..sadndwere
Submitted by Ifeelstupid on
I am sad to read about Dagmar's experiences. You come across, Dagmar, as a ressonable, rational person. I think I can relate to the boundary confusion issue and I think this is a good perspective to interject here - I must say I am stymied as far as suggesting anything helpful to contribute. I wish I could. And as far as the missing Christmas gifts go (appearing on this thread I believe), the response that the children's uncle might account for it, would be tantamount to declaring war if it were my husband who was the object of discussion. In our case the issue is usually his absence from family events. He has his reasons and ty are irrefutable, to his thinking. God bless