Are you in a marriage relationship that you and your spouse's differences have made it impossible to achieve the healthy bond you should have? After 9 years I've found it almost impossible to experience a healthy bond. Mostly due to Independence vs Interdependence...Independent living by one or both spouses makes agreements difficult, and it severely limits unity and trust. Because there is limited Openness or better said No ability to be Open...It's Control based...And the desire for Control is usually the product of abuse, or low self esteem which limits the ability to trust....No trust = limited bonding....
Late life marriages are a whole new challenge to the bonding process. But there are many first (long time) marriages who never bond in a healthy way...What does our life styles proclaim as being important to of each of us? (This truth of our realities is better recognized by *observation* instead of conversation. Actions or truths!, Words? well sadly, they can be more based on who we wish we were lol..See, we all love ourselves;), so words will just cloud it up a lot of times) If we never find unity (pulling in the same directions, having a reality where our Time, Attention and Care are placed in the same area's of life and living, *Unity*) in the things that pertain to what a marriage is meant to be, more than likely we will fail to experience a healthy bond. One built on Love and Trust..
So the six million dollar question is:...Can we thrive as individuals locked into the dysfunction of a marriage where we aren't experiencing a healthy bond? Yes we can, if we never turn angry or bitter, if we never allow our minds (thinking of thoughts) to make excuses for us, (Me) based on the differences and the limited abilities....Yes! I have found out if I hit the floor every morning dealing w/ me (the only person I have the power to discipline or change)...Living a thankful life of blessing counting, never being a victim, and never practice excusing myself from being accountable to be the attentive loving husband (as much as her independent reality will allow, I can never force unity) that I should be...
Life is short! Lets get to it, make a difference for someone to day:)
Blessings
C
Be Kind to the Blind; but never trust them to help your children cross the street.....Huuuumm...:) think about it..???
This is great, c.
Submitted by jennalemone on
Yet we also need to be aware and accept that we are the company we keep. The people who we hang out with have a great influence on our thoughts and actions. But you are right. Not many people can claim that their daily associates are people who "lift them up" and support and encourage positively. So it is work for EVERYONE to work to be in a mindset of strength and tenacity toward our own goals without blaming others for our own failures. It is a BALANCE of grit, exercise, mindset and then of awareness and acceptance that their are challenges. I have been finding and reading Marcus Aurelius meditations. They are a great resource. I am trying to meditate and also have the "company I keep" a good one. As I get older, I find it a challenge to find people to talk to so reading must take the place of conversation to a certain extent.
I had been somewhat embarrassed of my stoic Germanic upbringing and used to try to be passionate and emotional like the Latin Lovers of romance and the talented people involved in the arts. These days I am coming back to the word "stoicism" with a new perspective. I have never read the Classics of antiquity but this is worth my time to help get myself out of my pain of emotions and out where I can think clearly and give myself a sturdy ground to stand on....like I had been blessed with as a child but didn't appreciate.
“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
“Choose not to be harmed and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed and you haven’t been.” -Marcus Aurelius
“Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together,but do so with all your heart.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
You and Marcus are saying some wise stuff...:)
Submitted by c ur self on
We must understand Marcus's comment here (your estimate of it) and make it our reality. We (me lol) must learn to not take victim comments, accusations and judgments personal...It's the source that is responsible not the target....
One thing I kind of feel differently about is your comment about the company we keep...I don't count my spouse (and minor children) as keeping company, but rather abiding w/ someone whom I vowed to live with through the good and bad...I would not keep company with an individual that thinks, feels, and behaves as she does, if in my view it was a simple choice....vs a Vow...
Im glad you are taking some time to read (self care) and work on healthy thinking...I'm trying also to accept reality and just find peaceful things and people to spend time with...It's a must we care for ourselves!
When the reality of a persons life is, they put little to no energy into their marriage relationship then for all practical purposes their spouse has no life partner to share with....I pointed this out until I was suffering...Not her, but me....I like you Jenna have realized I must stay inward focused in order to keep my emotions and my thinking of thoughts in check.
Way too long I lived in the Illusion of mind, that I could say or do something that would cause positive change (that would cause them to stop and hear themselves and be aware of there behaviors, maybe she does hear, some times she show remorse and attempts to change. I want judge it, because there may not be an ability to do so) in another human....Denial is ferocious adversary; it will always allow those that live in it, to stay high and lifted up, above all reality...At least in this life
C
LOL KISS ( keep it simple stupid )
Submitted by kellyj on
C, I just had a kind of revelation yesterday. Actually, it was more a discovery? Yes, you are absolutely right. Trust, is a huge issue, but not all of it comes from abuse? I had my fair share of abuse, and living in a very negative environment at time due to one parent only. And being open or not I think has a lot to do with fear? But, as I am seeing these differences as to why that is ( between my wife and I ) I have literally been struggling with the same thing? What is up with that? I mean, here I am, with the abuse, I have ADHD and seemingly....I am so different in my attitude about things and being open has not really been a problem for me? I have, and still do to a smaller degree...not trusted that I will be accepted due to my symptoms at times, but in the same respect to that....it is more of a healthy ( dis-trust ) in myself more than anything else? I don't trust myself, to not slip or to get distracted and I know that full well that I will slip and something like this will happen? My attitude is...no one is perfect, I'm just a little less perfect than everyone else? This can be seen from a positive light or a negative light..and I have had both of these attitudes at times...but I never stay that way for very long and I can usually pull myself right back out of it again? Meaning...I may go down that road when I hit one of these moments? One of these moments where someone is "bad vibing" me? Or giving me the a "stink eye"? I pick these things up really easily, but I know why they happen? I know why, people do this so, I don't let that get me down. ( or put me down into the ground ) This is where "should be" really starts to be a problem? When people have really "strict adherence" to dogma , rules and regulations..."strict adherence to the letter of the law" where there is no grace, no dignity, no "wiggle room" room to move and or no "bending to the rules" in absolute terms in that kind of very rigid format or context.....that is exactly where this comes from. When things...."should be exactly like this"....then there is no way I can be that? It's not ( me ) in the sense that I would not be that way or try to be, it's that "I can't" be that exacting and precise all the time without fail. If the requirement, is for 100% "compliance" at all time 24/7....I could, do that if you put a gun to my head....but what kind of life is that to lead anyway? And really, what kind of life, is that to lead anyway? One might ask? I suppose, I shouldn't judge or say that for some, this is the kind of life they enjoy and like to lead in a very strict adherence to rules....but in respect to living at home...and just being a normal "flawed human being"...no wonder a person gets "up tight" under those circumstances? Like someone is always watching you and looking over your shoulder? That one kind of freaked me out as a kid...."he knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake......." OMG!!! Talk about a complex? LOL I rejected ( thankfully ) the notion of Santa Claus early on once I realized it was all a hoax!!! Like, thanks a lot my and dad...for giving me heart palpitations!!!! I don't have kids....but if I did....the Santa Claus Hoax would definitely not be part of the curriculum!!! LOL ( what a cruel lie to play on kids...as I see it? ) I mean really, if you stop and think about it....first you completely Lie..and make up some phoney story, and then you yank the rug out from underneath them and go, " ha ha....we were just kidding? " Nice!!! I'm glad YOU enjoyed that!!!! errrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! LOL
This is where lack of trust all starts. It's one thing, to tell kids stories or fables with a message in them that everyone knows aren't real, but in the same respect to Santa Claus.....what if we told kids that "Werewolves and Vampires are real, and they left things in your bedroom while you were asleep?? ( that and clowns...clowns are creepy!!! ) Can you imagine? What's the difference between those two things? I can tell you? One is frightening and negative and one is positive but...the delusion and the confusion of "why would someone do that to me"? is really messed up? Why would you intentionally Lie...to a kid...and then later go......"we were just kidding, none of that is real?" What purpose does that serve, to do that to a kid? None I can think of...except really messing with their minds? When there is no firm grasp on reality...then these things just move you further away from it, instead of closer..and you begin to not trust your only source of information? The closest relationship you have with anyone as a kid which is your parents? This is where "trust" is either eroded or strengthened and thinking that kids can't understand things is thinking wrong in this case. Way wrong to the point?
The fact is with my wife..I've heard enough stories now, to get a good idea what the problem is with her abusive situation? Their mother, was so out to lunch, and was o full of superstitious ideas and "bad luck charms" and what have you, that even though my wife tells me that she knew these things weren't real...she couldn't trust her own mother to tell her the truth? When the truth becomes vague and nondescript...then reality and trust become a rare commodity? Now on top of it...your parents can't be trusted to keep you safe from harm since they are the ones... actually harming you? Especially as a kid? You got no one to turn to...who won't do these same things again and it starts with having such strict boundaries and having to "toe the line"....then the world becomes a fearful place with monsters and bad people everywhere? Everywhere you look, someone is watching you? And every time you screw up, they are right there "on you" for it? There is no slack in the rope for sure and the reigns get tighter and tighter around you neck until you are choking on it? From a kids point of view, that is exactly what it feels like as I remember it?
The problem starts right out of the hole for someone with ADHD. You can never do anything "right" and everything you seem to do is "wrong" There it is, that black and white thinking. Good , bad , right , wrong, black , white...and nothing in between? That's where it comes from...from a kids perspective? And if you can never do "right" then you must be "wrong". I am "wrong and bad" and going straight to Hell!!! At least, that's what you think?
And until something comes along to tell you otherwise...your eye is peeled for anything that shows signs of this? And when someone starts giving you the "stink eye" then your radar is tuned to pick that up? And you immediately start to distrust the person giving you the "stink eye". You are so programmed and conditioned for this, when you have an abusive parent(s)..and live in a world of negativity all the time, it's all your radar, ever picks up and registers?
So none of that, is probably really hard to understand, and none of that really makes all that much difference to you on the other side of this since, it really doesn't matter what happened in the past, you have to deal with the fallout from it NOW!!! That is the problem with all of this, but it is why it happens? Using my own experience to draw from and include in that scenario? But with me, somehow....I didn't end up like my wife and this is where I really don't know exactly why, it just...I didn't and that's it? So I've been trying to understand this, since I don't so often with her, but I just got a real exact reason to pin point only the results including anything else to add to what I don't know myself?
The fact is....my wife, cannot remember anything positive ever? She literally can't remember anything good that happens? She can't remember any nice thing I've done for her, she can't rememember the nice things I say to her, she can't rmembeing anything positive. As in "0" and I just confirmed that by asking her a series of questions pertaining to specific things like this I've done in the past. She has NO recollection of anything "nice" or good I've done for her in her memory what so ever? Even though, the sheer amount of positive things I've done, dwarf the negative by a huge margin? To the point? She can only remember things I've said to her, when I was angry or mad which are the only times I've really said things out of anger that are not true? And I have apologized immediately after saying that very thing? Like "you know I didn't mean that at that moment when I was mad at you" but the problem there is, I did say those things in response to some of the nonsensical things she has accused me of that were so off the wall, that I just counter her non-sense with more non-sense in the moment, but I know that I was actually doing that? I realized, what and why I said it to her right then in the moment, and that was just in response to her ( doing the same thing ) What I realize now is....that, is not what she was doing? She wasn't saying non-sense as a means to get me to "wake up" or see the ridiculousness of the things being said, a part of her believes it.and a part of her doesn't?
Woah!!! Back up here a moment? " a part of her believes it.and a part of her doesn't?" Just like me, when I was figured out that Santa Claus was a hoax? I can't believe them, even though....maybe they are telling me the truth this time? I can never know with them....they both lied to me once, are they ( and my whole family?? ) lying to me now? Ah ha!!! There you go? The fact is...I figured that out on my own? And the fact...that my wife, never did figure that part out means, more of her believed her mother than the part that didn't but that sadly had to do with her being "trapped" in a world that didn't exist? When reality goes from rare to almost non existent...then who can you trust if you can't trust yourself? And if you can't trust yourself then you are pretty much hosed?
I just wanted to point this out to you C, or anyone else for that matter? There is an ADHD component in there but other things do have to come into play and just like with me, my reality didn't get too far to still not have at least one finger still clinging to it? Exposure to reality and getting away from that "fake one"...is what kept me on line even with the abuse involved? I guess you could say the distance I had to go to return, was not as far for me as some I think even the though the constant here is still ADHD? And the fear and PTSD now really starts to come into play? The fact that my wifes brothers memory is much better than hers makes me think that this long term memory thing is really an important component?
I have all the short term memory issue attached to my ADHD, but my long term is really sharp ( even still ) and I rarely miss a beat when someone does something "good" or "nice" for me? I can remember both,...the good and the bad, but my wife can only remember the bad...even if the bad is only 10% or 20% of the time? She literally can only see the 20% in her entire field of view and has NO memory what so ever of anything good at all? Like "0" which is why I keep hitting up against that since that was not something I really grasped completely until just recently? That explains a lot to me, and gives me a new perspective?
J
Great points J....
Submitted by c ur self on
Your ability to reach into yourself really helps me to understand a lot about my wife's living of life...Not comparing you at all, but, the adhd component (which produces some of the same type thinking) of your mind and hers is similar in how you view things....Such as rules and regulations...That is helpful....She has never been able to discuss such things, and I'm pretty sure she refuses to accept it (the way her mind works)...You used several adjectives that made me laugh...I don't know if that is adhd or not, but it's common w/ me and my wife also...If a mind can't get it self wrapped around something (rules and regulations in this case) it will discredit it at a higher level than someone who has no problem managing it self when it comes to rules etc....
As for as Santa Claus I agree w/you:)....
You wife's mind being able to focus on only the bad, even when it's at a much lower percent than the good is something that I've also experienced....It's like they live w/ this negative expectation, so in a sense they are looking past the good things trying to see the bad...It's what they are looking for...The anticipation is blinding them...They become numb to good things, because they are hyper focused on the dread of the bad...Which trigger's the outbursts of anxiety....I think the principle is why my wife lives so private, independent and protective of stuff....
C
It's Your Personal Relationship, That the Key, C
Submitted by kellyj on
My last comment was really all about my perspective C. That has to do with my personal relationship to my wife and how I see her. And in the same way.....Jenne's last statement in her comment to you is saying the same thing including the quotes you left at the bottom of your original post:
I have never read the Classics of antiquity but this is worth my time to help get myself out of my pain of emotions and out where I can think clearly and give myself a sturdy ground to stand on....like I had been blessed with as a child but didn't appreciate.
And taking straight from a post I made a while ago about "what is Love...and what "isn't Love"...if you apply the things that were said by Marcus Aurelius this, I think this all starts to make a lot of sense to me now? In church, they's say, you have to have a personal relationship with Jesus. My T has always said, you have to change your relationship with you past, and change your relationship with yourself in order to make these kinds of changes. And my swim coach, who taught us how to change our relationship with the pain, in order to endure it and improve athletically in and effort to do your best times. From the perspective of someone who has never done that before (or as a spectator ) most will focus on the rivalry or the competition and frame that from a spectators view point, making commentary and about the other competitors in a race to win and see who's first? In reality ( once you done that a few hundred times ) you realize you are the only thing standing in the way of improving during and event like that, and your focus is not on other people at the time. In fact, I really had no idea where the other competitors were, was place I was in, how I was doing compared to the other people swimming, I was focused 100% entirely on the pain, and trying my best not to let it overcome me and my body since I knew full well if that happened, my stroke would fall apart, I would tighten up and at the end of the race my time would reflect this? But at first ( like everyone does ) you are focused on beating the person next to you? Watching what they are doing and paying attention the them, where they are, what place your in compared to them and they end up beating you and you can't understand why? Not until a few hundred times of doing this until you finally catch on? How well you do, has nothing to do with who is racing with you? This is all about you, your pain, and your personal relationship with it? But there still has to be something to set you mind on or to focus on? And that is the time it takes you from start to finish no matter who is next to you? You are racing against yourself, at the end of the day? Your last time, and your time before that, and the time before that. If you are focused on anything else in the moment: the trophy you will get if you win, the praise you will get or admiration you will get or the record you want to set so others can see it or so you can show that off to other people, or to "beat" your competitor so as to raise you status and say I am better....none of those things will happen, and you won't be able to do you best? The single thing that stands in your way, is really not how strong you are or how talented you are ( gifted naturally above others )...it is your ability to change your relationship with the pain, stay motivated enough, to endure it and keep on enduring and push even harder and endure even greater amounts of pain....each time you do it? Anyone who knows how to swim, can swim side by side in competition? You may be naturally slow or naturally fast.....but you are already slower...than anyone who has learned how to do this since when the pain comes for the first time, you will back away from it, slow down and stop at a certain point? That's what everyone does..and no one is different? After a few hundred times...and you keep posting the same time over and over...you realize there is a direct relationship...with your pain threshold and that time you keep doing over and over and has plateau'd out and leveled off? There is just no two ways around it and this becomes quite apparent to you as you start to pay attention to this? A direct one to one relationship...with the pain you are willing to endure..and the time you see at the end of the race? And when this comes to you, you also come full circle to understanding what you have to do in order to improve your time. Somehow, you have to make that pain different, so you can experience more of it...not less? The more pain you can endure, the faster you time will be?
While as a spectator, you are cheering that person on, thinking....go go faster...if they could just go faster...faster faster faster!!!! In the mean while, this is not what you are thinking at all? In a 4 length of the pool race...the first length is a breeze and you are actually the fastest right at first...not at the end? In fact, it is the rare person....very rare ....who can do what is called "negative splitting". Negative "splitting " means, you the split time for the first 1/2 of race, is slower than the second 1/2? Why that is , is simple to understand. The first 1/2 and the first length are the easiest ones of all. When you are rested and fully ready and there is no pain involved. Everyone can do the first 1/2 and the pack is usually tightly bunched together...it's the second 1/2 where it's said "separates the men from the boys" because that is where the pain comes on. And that pain increases with every stroke you take? Until you can't take it any more, and that is as far as you can ever go? No mater how many times you do it? All of it, is about pain, endurance and time? Your own personal time, and your own personal pain? We are always our own worst enemies and this seemed to be a universal truth? Yoy competitors are not your enemy? There is no rivalry there at all? All of that, is just an illusion from on the inside of the person who is doing it? The only thing that is real, is the pain and how long it takes in time? That is all you feel, in completive event like swimming? It's not a "team" sport in that respect, because you team ( or your fellow team mates ) have no influence relationship with you while your doing it? And a little bit of trivia about swimming you might find interesting? It is, the only sport of its kind, that you cannot physically damage yourself? To the point, that you can endure the abolute limits of human pain and suffering..and you will not damage yourself or you body in any way, so there is literally no limit to how far you can push yourself? Unlike any other sport you can name, where there are physical limits place on you or you will actually hurt yourself instead? So with no limits being imposed on you in any other way, the limits of endurance of pain, is the only limit there is?
And now Jenne, making her comment which is her changing her relationship to her past MA said? In remembering it with appreciation in stead of negatively? And with my comments in relationship to myself and my wife's past and childhood, and what I see as different from my own? And as I sited it and pin pointed the problem ( from my point of view ) is her negativity, and only seeing what's negative? And of course, all my comments of pain and suffering from these things that my wife does or has done to cause me pain and looking for ways to resolve it to find a solution to it?
And here's the exerpt from that old post I made from an article on "What is Love" to show in comparison:
Most persons don’t realize this, but the common, or popular, view of “love” involves an element of receiving something. “I love chocolate” really means that “I enjoy getting the experience of the taste of chocolate.” Similarly, “I love you” commonly implies “I enjoy playing with your body,” or “I enjoy believing that you will give me security or protection,” or “I enjoy feeling sexual pleasure with your body” (or “I want to have sexual pleasure with your body.”) As a result, Lacan, in his teachings about love, described the typical act of love as “polymorphous perversion.” [5]
Don’t be put off by the big words. You already know what perversion means. Polymorphous simply means “having many forms.” So this amounts to saying, like the popular song from the 1980s, that we’re looking for love in all the wrong places. That is, we look for satisfaction in all the various titillating parts of the body but never find what is truly sought.
What is “truly sought” is something we all experience as painfully missing from life: some comforting sense of absolute belonging and acceptance. Those who are fortunate get a sense of this feeling as babies, under a parent’s protection, although the feeling is fractured more often than not by ordinary parental empathic failures, and then it is lost entirely as children become older and independent and the awareness of their essential human isolation and mortality sets in. Those who are less fortunate suffer a deeper lack: some parents are emotionally or physically distant and rarely provide any comfort and acceptance to their children; and some parents are outright abusive, leaving their children to languish in an environment of criticism and neglect.
Suffering from the lack of parental acceptance, some people skip from one “partner” to another over the surface of existential pain, like a stone skipping over water. As long as they stay above the surface they’re perfectly happy; but when an affair ends, and they come crashing down, they’re desperate for the next leap, sometimes searching for a new partner even at the funeral for the old one. Yet sooner or later the stone loses vitality, and with a final splunk falls into the depths of tribulation.
Lacan points out that although “love”—that is, in its common, popular sense—is, in essence, a futile chasing after something that doesn’t exist, there is nevertheless a love beyond this “making love,” a love that exists beyond lack and limitation and that involves a sort of ecstasy of being,[6] as a matter of soul,[7] not of the body. The irony is that in the common act of “making love” we think we know what we want, but it turns out to be an illusion, while this other love touches on a real experience of which we know nothing. It’s a mystical sort of thing, as Lacan acknowledges.[8]
Now, although Lacan doesn’t say it this way, the difference between these two kinds of love—common “love” and true love (or real love)—can be conceived of as the difference between receiving and giving.
Note carefully, though, that giving does not refer to the mere sharing of material objects or wealth; it refers to the expression of profound emotional qualities such as patience, forbearance, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness.
This all goes to show that it’s easy enough to “love” those who “love” us: parents who protect us, “partners” who make us feel received, animals who never threaten us. But can we love those who annoy us . . . irritate us . . . obstruct us . . . scorn us . . . hate us? Can we love our enemies? That’s the real test of real love.
So now, if you take all of these things said, from the framework of "your own personal relationship"..."your (other) personal relationships", giving or receiving, pain and suffering, and you body and how you feel inside, what is Love..and what isn't Love? Where does Love come from, and who is the one feeling it? Just like pain....who is the one feeling pain at any one given moment in time? You can't really actually "feel" what another person feels directly speaking, so that expression...."I feel your pain" is just referring to empathy? But what about, the empathy you have with yourself ( and you past relationship with the present on the timeline of you? You have time, you have pain, and you have something compare it too and that is all personal to you and your own personal relationship when you feel anything? Nothing actually makes you feel emotional pain and suffering from an external source? All of that is happening inside you any time you feel anything? That is very personal I would say, and it you want to change that feeling, you have to choose to, as MA said? That is a choice in respect to those quotes...as well as this personal relationship in the same way with this last ending sentence.....
"And it was out of a true understanding of the difference between common “love” and real love that a man such as St. Francis of Assisi was led—led right to the point, actually—to pray that he might seek “not so much to be loved as to love.”
The first thing I think of, when I read that last sentence, was not about praying, and praying has nothing to do with it from my point of view? What has everything to do with it as I reinterpret that with my own understanding of it would be to say, wanting to, and desiring to change this relationship he started out with like everyone else, to something different...from the negative vacuum inside him, that only want to receive from the outside to fill it and make that void go away...wishing and hoping and praying for luck or praying for someone else to do that for him on the from the outside? This was all about him, and his own personal relationship..and in "giving" that on the giving end of it....that comes from the inside out...not the outside in to fill the negative vacuum there? Something has to fill the negative space inside first, before you can give what is not there to begin with? I'd say, you have to "give to yourself first" and change your personal relationship with pain and suffering, and change that from the negative, to the plosives one, since this is your pain, your endurance and you ability to do this...no one else? it's not about, making the pain go away, just like my swimming experience, it about changing you relationship with pain in order to endure more of it, not less of it...in reference to the exact same thing? All of the things said in this entire thread, the ones I have referenced of other saying, and the ones that were said in the excerpt I included...are saying the same things including the ones I just added. It's all one in the same and is no different what so ever from one person to the next? That includes people without ADHD and people with it? We all know what pain is...and we all can feel it in the same way? And we all feel "real Love" or "True Love" in the same way as well? You know it when you feel it, and it is not painful what so ever? Love doesn't feel bad? Only pain feels bad? If Love feels bad, then it isn't Love in my book and something is wrong?
I rememberer Jenne's new clergyman, telling her the same thing compared to what she had learned growing up? It's not suppose to make you feel bad? If it is, then something is wrong? And I was just reminded of my posts about going "Through the Wall" of pain, as my swim coach taught us how to do by playing those mental games inside you head in order to go through it, and out the other side? And as I explained, when you learn how to do this and when it happens, the pain actually goes away and you are not even aware of it any longer which is saying you feel nothing but that surge of energy rushing through your body. As I would say, it's a release from pain, but first, you have to go through it, and experience it to get there? It is what happens, which is a phenomenon in itself, but as the spectator who is watching from the outside looking on.....you'd never realize that until it happens to you personally, since you can't prove a negative with nothing to compare it to. It's all saying the same thing.
J
Make America Great Again
Submitted by kellyj on
I just had a passing ( humorous thought ) about Donald Trump and his campaign slogan...."Make America Great Again". If I were standing in from of Mr Trump....( or DT, which stands for "Delirium Tremors"...my new nickname for him) I'd say that he should be more focused on making himself Great, possibly for the first time, before saying that for the rest of the country more than focusing on anything else?
"No one, (can do it) better than me!!! ........."No one, knows more (about it) than me!!" Yeah right ..what are you?? Flipper?? ( "no one you'll see...is smarter than he.....".) Who's this (we)....you got a turd in your pocket? (me , myself and I...more like it. ha!! ;)
Still learning
Submitted by jennalemone on
Wow, J. I read this all and see that you, like me spend time thinking of these things because there is something in us that we MUST figure something out and we aren't quite sure what it is we are trying to figure out. But we are close. Your pain of swimming races story is a good one. When I feel strong, I get that.
A counselor once said to me, that MOST people are more like children than grown-ups. I had been crying and complaining and felt the sting of her words directed at me. I told her I felt ashamed that I was so needy and unhappy and childish and that it had taken me so long to get to the point of realizing that I had some "growing up" to do. She said, You are further along than MOST people. MOST people never grow up and are children their entire lives.
The willingness to experience pain and speak and act thoughtfully and without emotions taking over are ways to be an adult. Our challenge is to be able to know when to be stoic and when to relax and fully enjoy the riches of life.
I think many of us have learned about ourselves on this site. I so appreciate a place where I could "complain and cry out" my childhood emotions and thought processes as I still am learning to "grow up" but need a place of acceptance and understanding. Lucky are the people who have had or have people in their lives who understand them and care and accept even the roughest parts of us. This is a place like an understanding parent who listens and then says, "There, there. It will be OK. You are OK."
Growing up is a life long process, I guess. And we can be proud of ourselves if we are able to be vulnerably strong.....which is a balancing act.
So, when I let my guard down and relax, what would a grown up do when ADD guy comes in and makes chaos around me? I need to find strength inside myself to not let it perturb me and to not join in or respond with negative motion. Feel the pain of disappointment, check it and then move on. I can tell myself a new story about our past and put things in their places where I am in control of my own physical, emotional self. Like when you were competing in swimming, J, don't look at the others, but identify the discomfort and what it is, it is just your own pain. Then carry on and do what you set out to do with focus.
I think Melissa's question that comes after the acceptance and the finding your self is a question of "Now What?" That is my personal quest for me at this age. What can fill me up enough to let the petty irritations not bother me. Where can my mind go for peace and purpose and love? My challenge.
What is Love?? What is abuse??
Submitted by c ur self on
The counselor I've been seeing had me to do about a 5 week diary tracking every time I felt loved from another individual....After about a week or 10 days of charting and thinking about Love....I started asking myself this question....What is Love? Your comment about total acceptance to me is right on....One thing that was easy to document was my 18 month old grandson....He and I have bonded in a way I can't explain....But like you say it is based on total acceptance...My daughter (not his mom, the younger one) was watching me holding him and walking around the house a few months ago...She was seeing the Bond, the total acceptance...He was fully at peace hanging off of my hip, and didn't want anything else...And I was completely at peace with him being there....
When I think about Love I like to go to 1st Corinthians chapter 13 vs 1-7...Just like every question I have about life I can find the answer in the word...I can't understand it always, and I'm not able to bear it always, but, I trust it...
I was thinking about what you said about the swimming...I do the same thing at the gym...I do a three part work out, and I can make it through the stretching and core work which is part 1, ok, and part 2 I can handle which is weights...But part 3 is where I can hit the wall and pain can get intense...So what I do to help is hit about 20 or 25 grams of Protein and I put my earphones on and set my Pandora station to Mo-town...Between the extra burst from the protein, and my focus on the music it helps push past the pain...I like to keep my heart rate up in the 160 to 170 range for 30 or 35 minutes about 5 to 6 hundred calories...
I personally think blame, denial, memory blocking and many other things we do is an attempt to distract ourselves from the reality of our pain...It helps limit having to face it... The pain we endure and pain we inflict....If a person feels or knows that they have limits in certain area's of life and living....Limits that they wish they didn't have...Limits that they know makes life hard on others at times....It is a very rare bird indeed that will come (has the ability to) face to face with that truth, be open and real about it...
To me real Love with in the human experience has many face's....It is intimacy and the physical aspect but it is so much more...There are couples who have been married for years (that hadn't been able to have sex for years) that will tell you it gets sweeter everyday...I not sure of every face of Love...But I know when you know you have it....And I know when two people are truly in love, you can't drive a wedge between them...
C
Could not agree more, C
Submitted by Zapp10 on
My thoughts these days have been coming to the same thing. It occurred to me that love is not about being there in times of illness, needed help, kudos on a job well done etc. It is being there when there isn't a need. Having needs is human......healthy love longs to embrace/share those needs( not wants). It has been a sad discovery to realize my H has a very skewered definition of love. It is equally sad that my loving him made no difference in his life.....I mean no disrespect......one of us grew up......the other did not. I am focused on love more than ever in my interactions with people. The good moments far out weigh the bad. I have a ways to go but I do not go alone.....thank you Jesus.....for being you and God for loving ME.
The Power of 3 Again, Keeps Playing Out, Over and Over.
Submitted by kellyj on
I have a few things to say about the current status of my wife and I, of this morning and the talk we had, but I've save that for later when I actually know more. But, it was a productive talk but yet the course of things in my wife's mind has still not changed. The productive part is simply what I learned myself. I think she learned something too but the "application part" or the "how to" part is really still a problem for her. ( the logic part that is still missing ) I will say the first thing I learned was what C mentioned about "observing" and I think I managed to do that fairly well. I learned a lot from just that? And that goes hand in hand with listening, which I feel, I actually do ( or have done ) a pretty good job of that from my own understanding of why that is? And as far as what I've learned, and exactly what Jenne said as well, there is a value in the sense, of just having someone listen to you no matter what comes out of your mouth? Good or not so good, there is a purpose that it serves even if the listener still can't or doesn't know exactly why that is? And there is strength that you get, by facing challenges and moving forward even when we fail. And there is shame, and regret, bitterness,and guilt and all of these things rolled together to form our experiences? And the end result after all has said and done, is what we learn? You learn, through your experience as the bottom line.
So what have I learned so far...to date that I can share here as well? As Jenne mentioned and brought up my swimming experience starting at an early age so that is a good place to start and refer to starting at the beginning. I'm big on the "how to" part so I can look back at how I learned this as just the early lessons ( age 6 moving forward )
"for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test the quality of work each one has done." Seize the Day!!! You have to take ownership and the "test of fire" will prove if you have or not. The "quality"..is what is needed to do the job, the fire is pain and how you deal or cope with it, and the end result will be revealed on test day and the results at the end of the Day. In the face of "fear", in the face of "self doubt", in face of "shame and embarrassment" and in the eyes of entire audience of your family friends and peers ( standing mostly naked ( aside from a Speedo...like I said, mostly naked!! ) like a big spot light shining on just you, you stand alone...in the face of all those things, and some how have to perform? You have to function and perform, in the face of all those things....and that's the test of fire. After all the hard work you put in to get there...on that Day....and in the moment nothing else exists. For the next 1 minute (give or take ) will reveal the quality of your work leading up to that day, but on that Day all that is left is to overcome all those obstacle standing in your way between the starting gun and the finish of that 1 minute in time, depending on well you do? Faster or slower than what you did before? Ownership and possession, are have a big part to play in this I think? So does strength and weakness. But there exists other qualities that you need to possess first...before you can improve or change? To recap, you need strength, and you need skills and you need knowledge and learning and all that goes into it? You need those things too, but that only tells 1/2 the story? I feel, there is a lot in there that's missing, and that's what you need to possess first to over come all those obstacles?
1)To learn: you need to observe and listen
2) To perform: you need strength and skills
3) To do well: you need to work
( the power of 3 )
To get there and then to perform...you need: strength, endurance, skills ( the power of 3 again ) and all of those things are true. Practice and work and honing your skills all take place in the act of doing? You learn, while you practice and practice comes with failure. You cannot succeed at anything, without failure coming first. If you never fail,or it's too easy....you will never learn anything. And after all that hard work and practice..at the end after you do the work, you get what I'm calling "horse sense". Horse sense ( or street smarts ) is not IQ or being smart, because in that kind of sense, you get that through your intuition. It comes from a combination of all that you learned which accounts for the accumulation of experience, knowledge and common sense which boils down to Wisdom. That is what you get...at the end of doing all of these things? ( the power of 3 again...over and over )
But that's not enough, you still need more qualities to succeed on test day. You still have those other obstacles to overcome to perform you best and advance beyond where you were before. In essence, to grow. I mentioned before, when I stumbled upon Brene Browns Tedx Talk on "Listening to Shame"...and I said, she was my new Hero....since what she said immediately resonated with me. I have listened to her talk, at least a dozen times or more, and I might listen to it again, if I feel the need to do so or as just a reminder of the things I've learned. I think she sums up "failure"better than I could do, so I took a couple of excerpts from her talk to pin point these other qualities? This is what she said after one of her most devastating failures to date.
"And my life did end when that happened. And maybe the hardest part about my life ending is that I learned something hard about myself, and that was that, as much as I would be frustrated about not being able to get my work out to the world, there was a part of me that was working very hard to engineer staying small, staying right under the radar. But I want to talk about what I’ve learned. There’s two things that I’ve learned in the last year. The first is: vulnerability is not weakness. And that myth is profoundly dangerous. Let me ask you honestly — and I’ll give you this warning, I’m trained as a therapist, so I can out-wait you uncomfortably — so if you could just raise your hand that would be awesome — how many of you honestly, when you’re thinking about doing something vulnerable or saying something vulnerable think, “God, vulnerability is weakness, this is weakness.” How many of you think of vulnerability and weakness synonymously? " (The majority of people raise their hands )
"Now let me ask you this question: This past week at TED, how many of you, when you saw vulnerability up here, thought it was pure courage?" ( The majority of people raise their hands )
Vulnerability is not weakness. I define vulnerability as emotional risk, exposure, uncertainty. It fuels our daily lives. And I’ve come to the belief — this is my 12th year doing this research — that vulnerability is our most accurate measurement of courage — to be vulnerable, to let ourselves be seen, to be honest."
The quality of "courage." Courage is not bravery after all? One might say someone is Brave, but that's really just the results or courage? And there seems to be a huge problem here in conflicting feelings or ideas about weakness and courage??? That is a major problem and obstacle to overcome right out of the hole? Obviously, if the majority of people raised their hands the on the first question, and the majority of people raised their hands on the second question....then the majority of the people...can't be right in this case, if the majority of people are wrong??? Doesn't that make logical sense??
And if I can pick on someone right now, I have no problem picking on a Bully...no problem!! Our new Fearless Leader ( DT ) is a perfect target to use as an example of "no courage"..and "no strength" and "no wisdom". Things were handed to him, things came easy, he didn't have to work hard and earn what he started with and he thinks...."no one is better than me." He might be a really smart guy ( high IQ ) and that's a fact....but without courage and wisdom, he is what he is? The Fearless Leader ...is just a joke. "Verruca Salt" in "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory"...suffered the same fate. My opinion, but a good example none the less. Going back to my Hero instead.............
"and I’m not kidding that — I’ll give you an example. About three months ago, I was in a sporting goods store buying goggles and shin guards and all the things that parents buy at the sporting goods store. About from a hundred feet away, this is what I hear: “Vulnerability TED! Vulnerability TED!” I’m a fifth-generation Texan. Our family motto is “Lock and load.” I am not a natural vulnerability researcher. So I’m like, just keep walking, she’s on my six. And then I hear, “Vulnerability TED!”
I turn around, I go, “Hi.” She’s right here and she said, “You’re the shame researcher who had the breakdown.” At this point, parents are, like, pulling their children close. “Look away.” And I’m so worn out at this point in my life, I look at her and I actually say, “It was a fricking spiritual awakening.”
"And she looks back and does this, “I know.” And she said, “We watched your TED talk in my book club. Then we read your book and we renamed ourselves ‘The Breakdown Babes.'” And she said, “Our tagline is: ‘We’re falling apart and it feels fantastic.'” You can only imagine what it’s like for me in a faculty meeting.
So when I became Vulnerability TED, like an action figure — Like Ninja Barbie, but I’m Vulnerability TED — I thought, I’m going to leave that shame stuff behind, because I spent six years studying shame before I really started writing and talking about vulnerability. And I thought, thank God, because shame is this horrible topic, no one wants to talk about it. It’s the best way to shut people down on an airplane. “What do you do?”
“I study shame.”
“Oh.”And I see you." That's the gift of sight right there. Student or researcher, makes no difference I think? She explains why that is.
"But in surviving this last year, I was reminded of a cardinal rule — not a research rule, but a moral imperative from my upbringing — “you’ve got to dance with the one who brung ya”. And I did not learn about vulnerability and courage and creativity and innovation from studying vulnerability. I learned about these things from studying shame. And so I want to walk you in to shame. Jungian analysts call shame the swampland of the soul. And we’re going to walk in. And the purpose is not to walk in and construct a home and live there. It is to put on some galoshes — and walk through and find our way around.
Here’s why. We heard the most compelling call ever to have a conversation in this country, and I think globally, around race, right? Yes? We heard that. Yes? Cannot have that conversation without shame. Because you cannot talk about race without talking about privilege. And when people start talking about privilege, they get paralyzed by shame. We heard a brilliant simple solution to not killing people in surgery, which is, have a checklist. You can’t fix that problem without addressing shame, because when they teach those folks how to suture, they also teach them how to stitch their self-worth to being all-powerful. And all-powerful folks don’t need checklists."
Back to DT, just compare notes. Privilege and self worth...to being all-powerful? mmmmmmmm??? He'll do anything, or say anything...to avoid shame. That is weakness, not strength. Like Jenne mentioned, a boy in a mans body? Just using him as an example only, that's not saying this is a rare commodity what so ever. I've had that same hat on, once or twice before in my life and that's a fact. No doubt in my mind.
There’s a great quote that saved me this past year by Theodore Roosevelt. A lot of people refer to it as the “Man in the Arena” quote. And it goes like this: “It is not the critic who counts. It is not the man who sits and points out how the doer of deeds could have done things better and how he falls and stumbles. The credit goes to the man in the arena whose face is marred with dust and blood and sweat. But when he’s in the arena, at best, he wins, and at worst, he loses, but when he fails, when he loses, he does so daring greatly.” ( fucking A )
"And that’s what this conference, to me, is about. That’s what life is about daring greatly, about being in the arena. When you walk up to that arena and you put your hand on the door, and you think, “I’m going in and I’m going to try this,” shame is the gremlin who says, “Uh, uh. You’re not good enough. You never finished that MBA. Your wife left you. I know your dad really wasn’t in Luxembourg, he was in Sing Sing. I know those things that happened to you growing up. I know you don’t think that you’re pretty enough, or smart enough, or talented enough or powerful enough. I know your dad never paid attention, even when you made CFO.” Shame is that thing.
And then if we can quiet it down and walk in and say, “I’m going to do this,” we look up and the critic that we see pointing and laughing, 99% of the time is who? Us. Shame drives two big tapes — “never good enough” — and, if you can talk it out of that one, “who do you think you are?”
The thing to understand about shame is, it’s not guilt. Shame is a focus on self, guilt is a focus on behavior. Shame is “I am bad.” Guilt is “I did something bad.”
How many of you, if you did something that was hurtful to me, would be willing to say, “I’m sorry. I made a mistake?” How many of you would be willing to say that? Guilt: I’m sorry. I made a mistake. Shame: I’m sorry. I am a mistake.
There’s a huge difference between shame and guilt. And here’s what you need to know. Shame is highly, highly correlated with addiction, depression, violence, aggression, bullying, suicide, eating disorders. And here’s what you even need to know more. Guilt, inversely correlated with those things. The ability to hold something we’ve done or failed to do up against who we want to be is incredibly adaptive. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s adaptive.
The other thing you need to know about shame is it’s absolutely organized by gender. If shame washes over me and washes over Chris, it’s going to feel the same. Everyone sitting in here knows the warm wash of shame. We’re pretty sure that the only people who don’t experience shame are people who have no capacity for connection or empathy. Which means, yes, I have a little shame; no, I’m a sociopath. ( which one is DT? mmmmmmmmm?? anecdotal at best, just posing the question? )
What's most likely? ( occams razor ) "So I would opt for, yes, you have a little shame. Shame feels the same for men and women, but it’s organized by gender. "
"Shame is an epidemic in our culture. And to get out from underneath it — to find our way back to each other, we have to understand how it affects us and how it affects the way we’re parenting, the way we’re working, the way we’re looking at each other. Very quickly, some research by Mahalik at Boston College. He asked, what do women need to do to conform to female norms? The top answers in this country: nice, thin, modest and use all available resources for appearance."
"When he asked about men, what do men in this country need to do to conform with male norms, the answers were: always show emotional control, work is first, pursue status and violence."
"If we’re going to find our way back to each other, we have to understand and know empathy, because empathy’s the antidote to shame. If you put shame in a Petri dish, it needs three things to grow exponentially: secrecy, silence and judgment ( the power of 3 again ) If you put the same amount in a Petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can’t survive. The two most powerful words when we’re in struggle: me too."
"And so I’ll leave you with this thought. If we’re going to find our way back to each other, vulnerability is going to be that path. And I know it’s seductive to stand outside the arena, because I think I did it my whole life, and think to myself, I’m going to go in there and kick some ass when I’m bulletproof and when I’m perfect. And that is seductive. But the truth is, that never happens. And even if you got as perfect as you could and as bulletproof as you could possibly muster when you got in there, that’s not what we want to see. We want you to go in. We want to be with you and across from you. And we just want, for ourselves and the people we care about and the people we work with, to dare greatly."
For now, I just wanted to include this into the conversation. What did it take, for Dorothy, to return to Kansas (reality )..and escape from OZ? Her 3 friends of course...but they all needed a little work. What they needed were the qualities of courage, knowledge, and heart and they earned it from doing it. The power of 3 again. I just wanted to point out, that this is what it takes to get past those obstacles that I learned from swimming. You learn it from doing it.and what you end up with "horse sense " ( or wisdom ) any way you want to slice it, it's all bread as they say? Hero's come in all shapes and colors, but the one you need to find the most I think, is the one inside of you.
PS What did Dorothy learn from his her Hero's journey? "There's No Place Like Home"
J
Vulnerability
Submitted by jennalemone on
I like Bene Brown too. Thanks for the morning pep talk. I like the idea that vulnerability is courage. I have always thought so. And this reminds me. For a while I was seeing that people who were orchestrating a public image seemed to be happier and more in control. Yes, when I look at the people I know well, it seems that the women with the most makeup and the men with the loudest, most in-control to be the ones who are owning their lives and self-satisfied. This never seems fair or reasonable to me but I was working to figure out why this is my view. While those with quiet vulnerability were sometimes stuck in their thoughts and feeling left out. I am not sure where I am going with this, but your entry here reminds me what I feel in my heart. It is those who dare to open the conversations with the joy and the ugly of truth about themselves and about the surroundings who I personally rather hang around with. There are just so few of them in my circles. Anyway thanks for the reminder.
Jenne....Everything You Said I am Familiar With
Submitted by kellyj on
When I remember back to my childhood, and how I felt in the presence of my father? I felt he had this overwhelming power over me, and I none of my own? I was powerless to do anything in terms... between him and myself? He was in total control, and I had none? I had now power to do anything for myself, and I felt in his presence....no power, and any power I did have or did get for myself , was immediately stripped away from me and he always made sure of that right then in an instant. He could read you like a book, and look right through you to the inside of you like he could read your mind of something? I saw this as an amazing ability he had...and I envied him for it? It was like....wow, he always get everything he wants, any time he wants and he never has to compromise ever? He just has this control or everyone like a puppet master or something? Little did I know ( and of course I was a child and that was expected too ) that I was to obey him as he determined or I would get into trouble or be punished? The problem with that was, I trusted and believed he had my best interest in mind as well? Unfortunately, that was never the case? He got what he wanted first, always...and then once he got his...then everyone else got theirs or what was left over? Like throwing a bunch of dogs the table scraps and let them fend for themselves in a mad dash to get to see who gets there first? That included my own mother unfortunately? I believed, that's the way thing should be, and I believed that this was the way " normal people" and families worked? I had no other example to work from in the way a healthy "not dysfunctional" family operated or on that level, how a healthy "not dysfunctional " person operated, and that is all I knew? And I trusted that part that said...."this is for my own good because that was what I was told?" The problem was, it was not good...but I believed that it was. that's the problem. And the problem really was, that my father "had a personal problem"....not everyone else in that one aspect of this? It went under the radar, and posed itself as 'good" and this is the way everyone works. At least that's what I was told, but as you can see...there was a reason for that? If you always get what you want all the time...then why would you want to change that? Who would, that's the point? He set it up that way, so he could be the one in total control of everyone. That was out of weakness and fear....not from a place of courage, trust strength and faith?
Actually, it was the antithesis of trust, faith and courage and was a direct reflection of his own weakness instead? This put my mother in a very compromised position. If she were to go against what he said, or privately take me aside and tell me that what I was learning from him wasn't right...now she looks like she is betraying my father...and also saying conflicting things to me that did not make sense? That fact, that she had the courage and at least speak up to me and tell me these things later....only made me disrespect my father once I ( got it ) and now saw him completely differently than I did? When I started to become more and more aware of this....it came to me and my best interest, I realized that was not really in his thinking unless it served him in some way. Some way, with strings attached. The fact, that he could do something that was not good for me as I thought, was very hard to come to terms with? How could I know...which things were good for me..and which things weren't ....when I was hearing one version from one parent...and another one from the other one? Who can you trust in that case and which one is right? What I ended up doing subconsciously...is not trusting anyone but myself, but I had no idea what I was doing? And showing that outwardly ....my father had already made it clear...that making mistakes, failing and showing weakness outwardly...was completely unacceptable? In his mind, and from that kind of thinking...."winning" is the only thing that matters....and if you don't win.....your a loser. That's the point. All or nothing..and nothing in between? When you' are just an extension of someone else....then what ever you do....reflects directly on them and you get no credit, for anything and it all goes directly to them. If they can't have "bragging rights"....then what good are you? And what good are you, if I can't use you to "brag about". Nothing, that is all that you are worth if you can't win. When ever I hear that phrase "bragging rights"...it makes me cringe, and I have a visceral negative reaction to it. I personally think that is a horrible concept, to even entertain let alone...say it outwardly as if that's a "good thing." That might be the case...in a healthy balanced relationship, but when things are so far a skew, and so far out of balance in favor of only one person...that becomes completely messed up...and that meaning changes completely. That was one of those...."what I was lead to believe was good....was not good after all?
J
Shame is like denial...It's the great lie!
Submitted by c ur self on
In my own life, I have found it to be impossible to "learn" past the reality of my shame. It has taken something greater...It has taken Love...When I think about being healed of my view of my self, my shame, and all the insecurities shame produces. I can only attribute healing to Love...Real Love...Not enablement, Not pity, Not self help talks...But REAL LOVE....
I've heard testimony's from so many people who have went through years and years of their lives so messed up because of their shame...( No sense in inserting my W's name here just because of all the negative effects her shame as brought on myself and our marriage...Because the truth is, she could do the same...Beam and Moat remember??)..,So, because of this shame we keep tucked away so deeply, we must learn to wear the mask!...You know the one, we wear it for others....
..But one day they have this experience, some thing so profound, so different from anything they ever knew....The light!....Yes the light of Pure Love! This experience has happened to me more than once...It is life changing and so profound that when you experience it, you can never forget it...Nor would you want to...Because in the light our shame is dispelled, and truth is brought in, in its place....And it allows for vulnerability to come in...Which to me is the same as healing....See we are all messed up (human) and we all are in need of experiencing the light...But sadly more of us choose the mask to cover our shame instead of the light of life that allows for vulnerability/healing and peace with our depravity....(Our Human State)....
C
C That Goes Right Back...
Submitted by kellyj on
to Adam and Eve I think? There is a message in there, that gets lost I think, and you can take that to mean a lot of different things, but really only one of them is right? Unfortunately, if that is taken out of context...it can be interpreted completely wrong...and that not a good thing at all? We are both, good and bad and have to choose between the two....if you deny what is bad or deny that you aren't perfect and therefore without sin....you are in denial completely...and that shame and fear...is what will prevent you from seeing the light. As Brene Brown said...
"Shame drives two big tapes — “never good enough” — and, if you can talk it out of that one, “who do you think you are? The thing to understand about shame is, it’s not guilt. Shame is a focus on self, guilt is a focus on behavior. Shame is “I am bad.” Guilt is “I did something bad. There’s a huge difference between shame and guilt. And here’s what you need to know. Shame is highly, highly correlated with addiction, depression, violence, aggression, bullying, suicide, eating disorders. And here’s what you even need to know more. Guilt, inversely correlated with those things. The ability to hold something we’ve done or failed to do up against who we want to be is incredibly adaptive. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s adaptive."
Which from where I sit and how I see that? Shame is the worst kind of motivator and should never be used as a tool or weapon against someone unless all you want to do is hurt them,... there is no benefit in that at all. It only serves to do the opposite of what you want which is what Ms Brown made so clear? Guilt, on the other hand, can be a useful tool and a means to initiate change, but only for the person using it, attempting to guilt or shame someone into doing something, is a poor method and really can't work, for another person. Only you feel shame or guilt. You can't take yours and use it on another person and think that will do anything, but end in failure. Acceptance and tolerance of your own shame and guilt....taking ownership and seeing both the good and the bad and the many facets that make up a person...is the only way to have balance. Balance is the goal....not to see things as isolated from each other...as being part of what it is to be human? What is said to "sin"....is when you hurt yourself? If you only see "sin" as hurting others only, then you are completely missing the boat? ( or the message in the story )
J
Yes J, back to the Garden...The deceiver was there also....
Submitted by c ur self on
Shame is the great lie J...So many of us has allowed our shame to keep us from excepting real love....We just don't deserve it...That it is one of the lies of Satan I have been saved from.
Grace can't be earned or deserved...That's why it's Grace....
C
C..Just a Passing Thought About What You Said
Submitted by kellyj on
For me, I really have to watch out for that word "deserves". It's a slippery slope for sure and especially what where I came from. Meaning, the the word "deserves" goes hand in hand with being a victim? The meaning itself or the word itself is pretty innocuous but what "comes from " that word is where things get sticky. This applies doubly for my actual ADHD symptoms. Lets face it, it is more work having ADHD and that's a fact whether you realize it or not? It's just more work than if you didn't have it and that's right where it's easy to start taking yourself out of doing what you should be doing and go the path of least resistance. With ADHD, that's not always the best path more often than not? Impulses ....lead you astry. That's not your cognitive mind, that's you subconscious talking again. And if you think about what the executive function in your brain does, it sends messages to you, to tell you what to do? Those very messages, are the ones I have learned and will still be learning how to circumvent if they are not telling me right? Just like emotions, they are just there to tell you what to do, not to follow them blindly straight into trouble? The word "deserves" gets tied into that and can make things more complicated...than if ( for me ) I just eliminate that word from my "self talk" and keep that one out of the picture. I have to use a different word that won't get easily hijacked? But that is going towards the positive side in saying "I deserve to take a break, since I'm tired". In a very specific way in terms of ADHD....that one...is the one that has got to go for me? It's too easy to say "later"...if "I deserve to do this instead?" See what I mean? That is an "ADHD Thang"...more for me ....less for you?
But Grace is different since it's a Universal thing for everybody, not matter who you are? Just like shame, it feels the same for everybody. And in the negative, .."I don't deserve this" ( when you're doing that thing again ) when you actually do....that world the other way in lying to yourself, that things aren't so bad or that you can be a punching bag....and then say...."I'm fine"...."it's Okay"....blah blah blah.....when it's not Okay. Same difference?
This makes it easy to look at if you eliminate what you really "deserve' and leave it at that? I deserve...."air"...."water"....."food"......"shelter"......"clothing".....and decent human respect. I can live and be Okay....if I have those things? I was made however, to have more than that...and I want more sometimes....but I don't necessarily "deserve them"? I think "Grace".....falls in the category of "decent human respect" so I am in full agreement there....."Grace" is one of those things, that we all need the same? Which is one of those things...that when you need it.....you need it....and when you don't.........you still have to give it? It you only get Grace and never give it...then some where in this world...someone is doing without? Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.....but can only be transformed from one form to another? Love and Grace..are two of those things but what I have discovered more than anything else and where I have gone horribly wrong? Is not recognizing or understanding, what real Love....really is? If you are looking for something else under than label, then that's a real problem don't you think? For me, knowing exactly what that is at all times and knowing how to give it...came with not knowing exactly what that was and looking or giving something else instead? Sympathy...is not Love and for a victim....sympathy is a pretty close replacement and can feel just as good at times when needed....but again, if you need Love and all you get is sympathy...then that is like the dying man in the desert story...who need a drink..and they hand him food...but there's not a drop of water anywhere in sight? The dying man in the desert...needs both water and food to survives. He deserves to have those things to live and that's not negotiable?
The biggest thing I just learned for the first time ever with my wife the other day ( for the first time ever in our history together ) she actually connected something real and actually made that connection and then spoke out of her mouth....what she needs Grace for, that I could not know unless she told me? It took me countless times telling her or giving her all the options I could as to what I saw...and then she finally told me one...and narrowed it down for me? There was just no way I could know that for her.....but I really think that shame was preventing her, from saying it? Out of fear...that if she did, she would not get it? She never gave me the chance...out that same kind of fear? Meaning...in order to do that...she would have to admit something she didn't want to admit?
And in that moment when she did, she started telling me all those fears and why's and justifications and was still all wound up about it in the moment...and here I am looking her thinking ...I've know this for how long??? First for myself..and then seeing he do the same thing? I've know this one item on the list....for years, and here she was for the first time actually saying it out of her mouth and pin pointing it for me? That came right after another one of the "catastrophic irrational fears" where she things the sky will fall on her head and then everyone will judge her....when all along....everyone could see it except for her..and knew that anyway including me? I had accepted that so long ago...that it wasn't even worth mentioning ( for me and what I saw and knew ) but the fact that she finally saw it...and then spoke it clearly..and I understood that in a spit second with no confusion....told me she could do it...and probably do it again? What you said ...was exactly why it took this long for her to do and admit? But I honestly think....and what it now looks like to me.....that she could not see it before...she was not hiding or holding it back or for any other reason....that she simply couldn't see it...until she removed that shame that was covering he eyes? It wasn't intentional at all...what it was is a complete and utter lack of awareness? Period.
And the only thing you can do in that moment is to give Grace since that is the only solution to get past that for myself after this long of beating my head against the wall? I realized in that spit second after she said it...what that wall really is? This is where it becomes a true dysfunction and something isn';t working properly which is not my wife's fault or she has any control or awareness of? It just so happened that I recognized that one myself, and know it to be exactly what I said? It's not some emotional block or contrived "wall"...but one directly related to her dysfunction ( ADHD, BiPolar, Aspergers? Autism....what ever??? ) There is something there that is real...and that is what I needed to give Grace for.....but that leaves the question For what? And which one is it? Unless she could say so....it could be anything and there are too many possibilities of what it could be? But that just left me guessing? In this one item....I no longer have to guess and I now know what to give Grace for? That's the part that I cannot do alone? She has to at least know what she wants and give me something reasonable that I can understand? At just the bare minimum for understanding only? That's what I deserve and need absolutely...so I can give it when I need to which is not really a problem for me? Not knowing what and which one and leaving me to figure it out...was getting me no where since guessing is a poor way to give grace or compassion? You can't just give it to 100% as a blanket..or then your just an enabler?
I know one thing for sure that I am really seeing more and more? There is no step by step..."just do this"....that completely does not exist and you need to put the right solution...to the right problem...or you'll always be wrong in that case? All or nothing....is hit and miss at best? That's either "win" or "lose" and just throwing the dice? That is what was really driving me crazy...( crazy making!!!! LOL ) more than anything else?
J
Is It Further to New York....Or by Plane?
Submitted by kellyj on
I just thought I would explain what my wife did that was so amazing and even when she did it, I still had to back up for a moment? What she did...was fill in the missing part of that question so I could actually answer it for once? That question, is missing an important piece of logic...to tie these two ( unconnected things ) together. It's like the "bridge" in a song...that connects melodically...two modes or two parts of a song together and "bridges them" so it flows seamlessly. You can't "jump" from one modality or "modulate" in a song , with a "tag" or a "bridge" as the go between. As if I was asking that question...but in this case...she needed to fill that in for me....before she spoke any further or said anything that would make any sense what so ever? It's like I've been down my my knee's before, begging her, pleading with her...."PLEASE...FILL IN THE "BLANK"...SO I CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT!!! LOL
So in this case, what my wife actually said out of her own mouth was ..."I guess, I just assume people know that part?" And then I don't say it? ( HALLELUJA CHOIR SINGS!!! ) "And I'm going "well this all makes perfect sense and I completely understand " Which I did....I just left the "so why didn't you say that sooner" part out since that was not what this was all about as I said.
music example...of the missing "Bridge". There is a song dedicated to just that thing performed and written by Led Zepplin called " The Crunge" That's the perfect word, when you are waiting and it never comes!!! You "crunge". LOL Pefect!!
https://youtu.be/c7UpbD0toBI
It was the equivalent of her offering what I needed without having to say so which would be the equivalent of her saying "It's a lot further to New York when you drive on a curvy rode by car, than when you take a plane and go straight as the crow flies?"
Now how hard is that to understand?? Huh? LOL Why she can't do that, is just part of her dysfunction. That was what became clear to me....but only once she said it? She's still not clear as to why I can understand...but she is clear on the part..that if she just omits parts of what she says...that no one can understand her? As my T pointed out to her...it's kind of a dishonest way of speaking and she did remember that and used that when we spoke?
J
J I agree w/ your comments here...
Submitted by c ur self on
Yep..that word deserves is one I too try and stay away from when I think or speak about myself...I may use it and direct it toward another person based on their living of life or based on what they may be going through...Like yourself, I agree 100% that you need to be spoken to clearly and made to understand your W's feelings....No one is a mind reader...At least I'm not...
You know J just tonight my W and I was having a discussion...She likes to make plans based around her living of life, then come to me present it, and say I want us to do this...This has gone on for 9 years...Very seldom if ever has she came to me w/ a thought about something and said...What do you feel about so and so? It's always her wanting me to oblige (comply) her and her planned activity. No matter what my feelings are about the subject, or if I even have any....So tonight I told her this...(The subject tonight was her wanting us to go to Europe on a vacation) She has been pressing me to say yes to this for a few weeks...So I sent her a text a few days ago about this exact subject (best way for me to communicate w/ her, no interruptions, no emotion) explaining to her why it would be at least 18 months or so before I could afford to consider a trip to Europe...I also told her the same thing I've been telling her for a couple years now about travel and vacations together. We will have to show we can respect each other, and move past conflict before I would consider spending that kind of money just to be miserable....
So she hasn't replied since the text...But tonight, she wanted to press me again. LOL...So I told her that until the reality of our marriage relationship and Love for one another is more important than any place we could visit or anything we could see, I'm not interested...I told her mutual Love and Respect can't be put on hold for the excitement of new experiences in this world...I've been telling her this for a couple of years now (and she usually get mad and pouts) because we have had so much conflict on trips where she desires to control every aspect based on her wants....No consideration of my feelings....So when I told her this, she looks at me and says "You are trying to put words in my mouth"...I just smiled and said Oh No...I'm just pointing out the words that have never been in your mouth, because they aren't in your heart and mind....If I could make you say it, what good would that do? None at all...No, I'm just dealing w/ the reality of the past, and what your living of life (actions and behaviors) is screaming..:)
It takes heart changes for our thoughts and words to change...
I'm fine w/ trips and activities of different sorts as the Lord allows..We can travel to Europe or where ever and see knew places and things...But if we have to disrespect each other and make it a battle for control instead of two people loving and respecting one another than the price is just to high for this ole boy!
C
Wow C...You Worded That Perfectly
Submitted by kellyj on
Really. You described the exact same thing I experience too. To the letter: "She likes to make plans based around her living of life, then come to me present it, and say I want us to do this...This has gone on for 9 years...Very seldom if ever has she came to me w/ a thought about something and said...What do you feel about so and so? It's always her wanting me to oblige (comply) her and her planned activity. No matter what my feelings are about the subject, or if I even have any...."
I have an analogy that is just a theory of mine ( from observation again ) but what it appears like to me, is when my wife speaks to me more often than not..and especially during these moments of seemingly incoherence ( or incoherency as I hear here )...are these very moments that you are describing. This is taking the more well known Freudian apparatus of the ID, Ego and Super-Ego....and having some fun with those terms. Just to clarify Frueds definitions here:
Concepts and definitions:
Psychosexual development
Psychosocial development (Erikson)
Unconscious
Preconscious
Consciousness
Psychic apparatus
Id, ego and super-ego
Libido
Drive
Transference
Countertransference
Ego defenses
Resistance
Projection
Denial
Dreamwork
The Super Ego: "the part of a person's mind that acts as a self-critical conscience, (reflecting) social standards learned from parents and teachers."
We picture the unknown apparatus, which serves the activities of the mind, as being really like an instrument constructed of several parts (which we speak of as 'agencies'), each of which performs a particular function, and which have a fixed, spatial relation to one another: it being understood that by 'spatial relation'—'in front of' and 'behind', 'superficial' and 'deep'—we merely mean, in the first instance, a representation of the regular succession of the functions.
— Freud, The Question of Lay Analysis (1926)
We picture the unknown apparatus.......? Q: What is Unknown? A: The apparatus
which serves the activities of the mind........ Q: What does it serve? A: The activities of the mind
as being really like an instrument constructed of several parts (which we speak of as 'agencies'), So re-capping. The (apparatus or constructs) and their several parts, are the (unknown ) agencies as we ( speak ).
Q: Who speaks? A: (We) You or ( I speak )
Q: What is unknown? A: The (agencies )
Q: What are the constructs or their parts ( the apparatus ) ie: the Id, the ego, and the Super-Ego
Q: What function do they serve? ( executive function )
Id, ego, and super-ego are the three parts of the psychic apparatus defined in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche; they are the three theoretical constructs in terms of whose activity and interaction our mental life is described. According to this model of the psyche, the id is the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends; the super-ego plays the critical and moralizing role; and the ego is the organized, realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super-ego.
[1] The super-ego can stop one from doing certain things that one's id may want to do.
[2]Although the model is structural and makes reference to an apparatus, the id, ego and super-ego are purely psychological concepts and do not correspond to (somatic) structures of the brain such as the kind dealt with by neuroscience.
Q: What does the model, not correspond to in neuroscience? A: To (Somantic ) Structures of the brain which are dealt with by neuroscience.
The super-ego is observable in how someone can view themselves as guilty, bad, pathetic, shameful, weak, and ( { feel } compelled { to do certain things } )
Q: Who ( the person, place or thing ) can observe this? A: The 3rd person or audience ( or you or I ) observing ( them a person and their super-ego ) or simply...the other person standing in front of you (in the first person ) and how they see themselves.
Q; What can be viewed ( or seen ) A: As they appear to you ( apparently )......guilty, bad, pathetic, shameful, weak ...in how they see themselves
Q: How do they see themselves? A: guilty, bad, pathetic, shameful, weak
Recapping here: We can observe some ones Super - Ego....when they appear to us....as seeing themselves as guilty, bad, pathetic, shameful, weak special side note here: C...you and I are talking about two women we are with? What Brene' Brown said was that "Shame" is organized differently between men and women yet both men and woman feel shame the same way which I have to agree with her on both those points she made so I am going off of that assumption as being correct here.
And what's the worst thing for a man in this scenario? ( These societal / parental / learned constructs of the mind in terms of : shame, and the self criticizing Super Ego we have in our sub conscious doing this to ( ourselves ) )
a) to be "weak" ......or show weakness
b) to be "pathetic"....the ultimate form of weakness
For a guy that is....the "ultimate shame".....for a man to experience then...( the ulitimate "weakling" ) would be to become .."pathetic" and "powerless" or "helpless " For a guy....it doesn't get any worse than this. This is the "Ultimate Shame" and the most painful form that it comes in? "There's no crying in Baseball!!!" ( you big Sissy Mary!!! )
But for a woman....this would be completely different.
For a woman.....the "Ultimate Shame" is not so well defined as Brene' Brown said. Like she said.....Men have ONE shame...."The Ultimate Shame". Women as she referred to this...this is not so clear cut? That is not saying that women have it worse since the shame still feels just as bad for a man. An important point to make? There is no "worse" or "better" when it comes to feeling shame? No one needs MORE....or ......LESS.....of what ever they need to counter this "bad feeling" of shame...but the remedies and approaches might be said...to be completely different?
Q: What is different between a Man and a Woman ...in dealing with their own unique organization of Shame? A: The approach and the remedy.......only. Why do you think they have curtains, and stalls in womans bathrooms and dressing rooms? Why do you think they have special "women only" sections at gyms and work out facilities? Why do you think they separate women from men in certain activities? And why do you think that ( these women are so hung up on the word "designer" ) or why that woman in my story in my sculpting class....got all bent out of shape when I walked in and "out did here".....but only in terms of this female kind of "pissing match" that goes on between women when it comes to women shame...and how that is organized? Meaning....if that is where a womans identity is place....and then here's this "guy" coming in and pissing all over their identity? That is a really good example of ( me ) ...in this case, not doing anything more than just being really good ( or even gifted ) in an area that this woman had struggled and fought so hard to achieve and felt rather self confident...in her own ability? Which as I said in referencing that example....I saw that she was, and without me there to disprove that to herself....she would have not have felt the way she did? Perhaps ...but I'm thinking now this is much more accurate than I had originally thought? I had nothing to gain or lose in that situation and I was not personally invested? In my case....I knew what my talents and strengths were..and those were the ones that were gifted to me? I wasn't there to :"show off" in other words? I had no need to "show off"....I do that everyday at work ( or did ) on a daily basis by just doing my work and handing it over? It had been verified and confirmed so many times....that I had no doubts what so ever in my own mind? But more over and more importantly....( I ) had no doubts in myself...as ( I ) compared my work to others and comparing how I did and what my work looked like...compared to anyone else? I knew what a good job was...or what "looked good"..in my minds eye...since I had developed and an extremely critical eye for imperfections in my own work? At that point...I didn't need anyone to tell me or say....that my work was "good" or not? Even more to the point....many times I was told I needed to do a specific quality or work...depending on the circumstance or "how much" the customer was paying? I had 3 very clearly defined qualities that I could do on demand.
"Quick and dirty"...meaning..."you get what you pay for" and if you only pay for 5 minutes...but a really good excellent job needs 10 or even 15 minutes to do....then a sacrifice in quality...is the only way to stay in business and not go broke? And sometimes if the demand became too unreasonable as far as time goes ( can't or won't or refuse to go lower or compromise that much ) then you just have to pass..and let someone else sabotage themselves in service of what that demanding customer needs? If I can't stand behind my work at that point...or I know that it will fall apart of break and I will see it again...but now, I have to fix it for free as a return or as a job "poorly done"? If I know I'd have to do a poor job to the point that the customer expects more...then I have to say no....since I know one fact here that goes along with the kind of work I do?
It totally doesn't matter...if you stand in front of a customer like this, and tell them...."look, your jewelry that you Love more than life itself that was your Grandmothers, mothers treasured keep sake...is about to fall apart and is so thread bare and is hanging on by it's last tread.....I can put a band-aide on it to stop the bleeding as a temporary fix, but once I touch it and work on one part...then the other parts are going to fall apart and it will just keep going and going until I've rebuilt or replaced the entire piece? You just want this first problem ( the first failure or indicator of the entire piece going down the drain ) and no matter what I do...unless I fix it all...it will just break again and again. I don't want to take your money from you, because that is all I will be doing? If you just want me to patch it together, so you can keep it whole and visit it from time to time in your keep sake treasure box...then fine, I have no problem doing that with the caveat, you never wear it or you wear it ones in a blue moon on a special occasion."
C....you would be amazed at the different responses I would get in that situation? Some people understand that perfectly and say...."yeah, that's all I really want...I just want to have it and keep it and maybe pass it on to my children and want it to at least not be broken when I give it to them. I never plan to wear it...or if I do, it will be like you said? At a wedding for a couple of hours and that's it." And I'd go...sure, not problem...I'm only going to charge you for what I do, and I'm not going to do much else.... but the bare minimum for you? The more I try and mess with it...the worse it will get and the more I will have to do. That is what I'm calling..."Quick and Dirty" since I do it quickly, easily and it's still dirty when I get done. And the customers are Okay with that and we are both on the same page. That's the ideal...but that's not what always happens.
Many times, you get responses ranging anywhere from not understanding anything I just said from...."I don't care, I just want it done"....."why will it cost so much more to do a good job...I think your trying to rip me off" There is nothing I can do with the second response but say...."I feel I'm not the person you are looking for to solve your problem for you"....which is a polite way of saying...I ain't doing it any other way and that's you choice" ( end of discussion and I hope you understand, I don't want to even do the job at all under those circumstances since....this is just a "nightmare"...and you don't even want to pay for that much? And even if I complete it, you will be back and say "it my fault" if it breaks. If that person is going to be a penny wise and a pound foolish....I'm more than happy to let someone else be the fool since that is what will happen at the end of it for me? I will be left holding the bag as they say?
Which goes right into, the other alternative......."I don't care, I just want it done". Well...that's all good and fine with what you want...but I want something too, that you are not thinking about or have any concept of....yet I do, from countless experiences with this. What happens, more than not..( way more than not almost guaranteed on some level ) You are basically saying....I'm going to do a dirty job, and leave it "dirty" and your going to pay me to do a dirty job and I will only charge you that much. Fair is fair right? Wrong!!! LOL That's not how it works......"LATER", when it breaks again as I clearly told them? How that really works is one of 3 things happening?
a) amnesia....they forgot everything you said ( didn't listen ) didn't "care" as they clearly "spoke" ( the words I don't care ) and now, you were the last one who touched it.....tag, your it. THAT IS REALITY. end of story there. That is called a "no win" scenario....so I choose not to...and then this it not a problem.
b) they realize now....( if not then ) what you said it true. Now they are embarrassed or ashamed for not listening to you when you warned them. And they never will be seen or heard from again. THAT IS REALITY. end of story there.
c) The become flaming assholes...and then you end up doing all that work for free and have to concede to them...but usually telling them when they come in to pick up their merchandise...that you never want to see them in this establishment ever again. No one likes to be "86'ed" and put on the "Black Ball" list. A real life example of this was this one woman who returned after she was told, that "we told you so but you didn't listen" and walked in the door, and started ranting about how she was a witch..and started sprinkling "evil powder" on the cases and on the floor and making all kinds of crazy references to spells and things? It only takes, one of those....to make that clear and easy to understand??? LOL Even if...they don't? We never new exactly what the powder was, but it wasn't anything bad and probably just 'talcum powder". It was the fact that she believed what she was doing was reasonable..was the only scary part? The fact that this even happened was because the person originally helping this woman...didn't understand what I said either? The sales woman, had an equal part to play in this but I was the one who had to be the bad guy due to her incompetence on that one? I knew better and she didn't but we were all suppose to be professionals and the "experts" and in that one case....the sales woman was neither in that case? She lacked the experience she needed, in order to prevent that from happening and she "invited it" right in the door as they say?
But going back to the scenario with my experience in the sculpting class? Int hat case...I was invited and welcomed into the class, and I was minding my own business. The business of enjoying myself, learning a new skill, and producing an end product that was too my liking? That was it and the only reason I was there? The last thing..and not even on the list....was trying to prove how "good I was" ...or try of prove something...which I had no need to prove? If I was the worst person in the class....it would NOT have changed, how I see myself ( or my talents or my finished product ) or if I liked my sculpture or not? I was not "invested" as they say...and I could care less? Now now, this woman, is getting "into my business " and trying to project hers...into mine...and making her business mine? As if, that is even possible??? LOL And the instructor told her to go back to her work and mind her own "sculpture". LOL Pretty much, is only a few more words. LOL It wasn't a competition for me...but it was for her and was all about "shame". In this case, "female shame" which like I said, is completely different which I was not experiencing what so ever, and wasn't trying to feed into it at all? Just my presence there, did it and the fact that I had a talent that might be seen as admirable by women more to define their identity and this was just one means...or expressing that? I really am so familiar with this now, it seem pretty obvious where before it really bothered me and I took that on to myself? That, had nothing, to do with me....that's the point? The REALITY there is ( or was ) is that women typically are better at these crafts and kind of Artsy things....but that's not why I do it, and I was also born with a gift or talent there? I walked in from a professional stand point, and that was all business for me.....my business, not anyone else? From that advantage point....I don't care...but clearly.....( they or anyone doing that ) do care a lot? But I can;t help them out there...when that is just a personal problem they are having. I'm not going to "leave" or not "be there" just because one person doesn't like it..and is having a personality crisis? Know what I mean? I was welcomed and invited and was not having a problem period? The fact that I was a guy...is irrelevant? Lack of relevance was not my problem...it was hers in that case?
Freud (1923) in The Ego and the Id discusses "the general character of harshness and cruelty exhibited by the [ego] ideal – its dictatorial 'Thou shalt.'" Ah Ha!! The dictator emerges and makes it's appearance now!! You Must, Do this...I command it!!! So it is written...so it shale be done....on earth as it is in Heaven!!! LOL
Q: What does the Ego discuss with the Id? A: The general character of harshness and cruelty.....exhibited by the "ego( ideal )......spoken in the dictatorial "Thou shalt......." What? Turkey's butt?
Freud (1933) hypothesizes different levels of ego ideal or superego development with increasingly greater ideals:
...nor must it be forgotten that a child has a different estimate of his parents at different periods of his life. At the time at which the Oedipus complex gives place to the super-ego they are something quite magnificent; but later they lose much of this. Identifications then come about with these later parents as well, and indeed they regularly make important contributions to the formation of character; but in that case they only affect the ego, they no longer influence the super-ego, which has been determined by the earliest parental images.
— (The New Introductory Lectures, p. 64)
The earlier in development, the greater the estimate of parental power. When one defuses into rivalry with the parental imago, then one feels the 'dictatorial thou shalt' to manifest the power the imago represents. Four general levels are found in Freud's work: the auto-erotic, the narcissistic, the anal, and the phallic.[3]
These different levels of development and the relations to parental imagos correspond to specific id forms of (aggression and affection )
Q: What is parental "Imagos" A: In biology, the imago is the last stage an insect attains during its metamorphosis, its process of growth and development; it also is called the "imaginal stage", the stage in which the insect attains maturity. It follows the final ecdysis of the immature instars.[1]
In a member of the Ametabola or Hemimetabola, in which metamorphosis is "incomplete", the final ecdysis follows the last immature or nymphal stage. In members of the Holometabola, in which there is a pupal stage, the final ecdysis follows emergence from the pupa, after which the metamorphosis is complete, although there is a prolonged period of maturation in some species.[2]
The imago is the only stage during which the insect is sexually mature and, if it is a winged species, has functional wings. The imago often is referred to as the adult stage.[1]
Members of the order Ephemeroptera (mayflies) do not have a pupal stage, but they briefly pass through an extra winged stage called the subimago. Insects at this stage have functional wings but are not yet sexually mature.[1]
The Latin plural of imago is imagines, and this is the term generally used by entomologists – however, imagoes is also acceptable.[3]
Subimago
The final moult of the nymph is not to the full adult form, but to a winged stage called a subimago that physically resembles the adult, but which is usually sexually immature and duller in colour. The subimago often has partially cloudy wings fringed with minute hairs; its eyes, legs and genitalia are not fully developed. Subimagos are generally poor fliers, and typically lack the colour patterns used to attract mates. After a period, usually lasting one or two days but in some species only a few minutes, the subimago moults to the full adult form, making mayflies the only insects where a winged form undergoes a further moult.[2]
For example, aggressive desires to decapitate, to dismember, to cannibalize, to swallow whole, to suck dry, to make disappear, to blow away, etc. animate myths, are enjoyed in fantasy and horror movies, and are observable in the ( fantasies and repressions ) of patients across cultures.
"each of which performs a particular function" What function do they serve? And what is the executive function then?
"and which have a fixed, spatial relation to one another: it being understood that by 'spatial relation'—'in front of' and 'behind', 'superficial' and 'deep'—" And what "IF"...this is not understood? What if, there is no relation to another? ( or, the "other one"?
Q: "Who then is the "Other One"?
A: The Super Ego!!! Like an action figure or Super Hero. "I am "Super Ego!!!" and his Super Power is:" that he can't accept a compliment, unless it is given to him, by himself. Only He, can be greater, than Himself!!! I am Super Ego "( or herself, depending on? )
"we merely mean, in the first instance, a representation of the regular succession of the functions."
— Freud, The Question of Lay Analysis (1926)
Okay, enough with the anaolytical stuff. I'm am just merely pointing out all the different players and who they are inside us? All of us have these players in this conceptual model...but this is where sub- conscious really manifests itself into conscious awareness, but without awareness of "which one is speaking". As they appear to us, as the observer? The person..which character.."whom" is speaking...is the person standing in front of you...as they appear to you? Making appearances, is a really important aspect here? And if a person ( in theroy ) gets stuck in one of these developmental stages...they will appear....'immature" of like the "Sub-Imagoes" stage in development? I remember reading someone mentioning ADHD as a "learning disability" once, and I balked at that saying I had never heard that one before? I think I might restate that now better in saying it as a "developmental disability" but with no problems really in the ability to learn things? In fact, using my hearing loss as an infant to compare here? If you can't "hear"...then the sound is not there to understand or learn from? The sound is missing, and that would be a direct reason to say that the learning is disabled unless you could hear in the first place?
A developmental disorder or challenge is different than a learning disability? Slow to learn....means you learn it but slower? That is not a disability...just because it takes you longer to get there but you still get there? I guess to what degree the delay is...is really the only determination? In other words, you are not prevented from learning even if you are slow? That would be like saying, a person "Can't Run"....if they finish last in a Marathon race but ran the entire race without stopping? That makes no logical sense what so ever does it? Especially since that person...just got through running for nearly 27 miles without stopping?? "Like huh??? You want fast...then your barking up the wrong tree with me? Go talk to the people who finished in the top 10 places....if you want that? If you wanted "fast"..then why didn't you say so?? You said, you wanted someone to run a marathon, and I just did!!!.. WTF is up with that? " As one might say here?
And going right back to the one line here that caught my eye. The Super Ego: "the part of a person's mind that acts as a self-critical conscience, (reflecting) social standards learned from parents and teachers."
What if the Super Ego...decides to go rougue? What happens to mild mannered Clark Kent of the daily planet, when Super Ego stopped reflecting, and starts projecting instead? Projecting outwardly to other people and is now manifested into physical form? "I am Super Ego"...standing in front of you now? And Super Ego ...starts dictating and demanding to you in the "thou shalt not....." manner of speaking? As I call Ms "Super Ego" ....Mini Me. Apparently in these moments when Ms Super Ego...malfunctions.....Mini Me appears...and what she appears like is a total asshole? Mini me...should be in there doing what's suppose to do...to mediate between the Id and the Ego...in a SELF CRITICAL way? But what if all these characters are no communication together and they each appear as separate from each other...as individual characters instead. Super Egos job as it appears is to be harsh, aggressive and critical...but apparently in the wrong direction as I am seeing this more clearly? We are all made up of many facets, but what I just described is a dysfunction...when there is no connection between them and no awareness of "who" is in charge and "who" is actually speaking...under those circumstance I think?
And "Super Ego"...cannot accept a compliment, unless it was given to him/her, by her/him self. Only he/she can be greater than him/her self. When there is a malfunction in the "executive function" I think this is exactly what happens and the early child development and learning from parents is what makes this all go horribly wrong sometimes? Whe you've got no agency available..and you can't identify yourself as being different from you parent...that is a problem...if it stays that way and you never fully mature? That would mean, changing your perception, to accommodate this and match what you see...to what you hear and how that appears to you as needed to stay on the same page with someone who gets reappearing, but never fully integrates as one for very long?
There's the power of 3 again...the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego....if they are separate, there is no power? You've got to have them working all together at the same time...to get that kind of power I think? And the last person who will get that kind of power is a victim. That I can personally verify without a doubt in my mind.
J
PS My T;s words keep coming back to me here as he said "Attachment, or Insecure Attachment...has to do with Attachment theory not ADHD? If you want to fix what's wrong, then you have to apply the right "fix" to the appropriate problem? If some has an Insecure Attachment to you....then what they need is to become "Securely Attached" And since they can;t do that for themselves, then it's your fault, when you don't make them feel that way? That is a no win situation, since you cannot give someone who is insecurely attached themselves ( or insecure ) by trying to do that for them? Temporarily, until you "detach" from them? When that happens, they will be lost without a rudder to navigate? You can only fix yourself, no one can do that for you? I have learned that ...just from doing it and nothing else.
Observation; and reality....
Submitted by c ur self on
Labeling in psychology; (adhd) labeling in the physical sense...disease...sicknesses...It's the best Science has been able to come up with....But if a person can view themselves as corruptible and temporary, they can move past labeling...I know cancer is real (a cell becomes diseased and grows)..but, so what!...I know that the mind's wiring (executive function) isn't the same in all of us...That is just an observable reality for anyone who wants to see....So what!...When C's acceptance of this reality got greater than my disdain for it and the illusion I could change it....I started learning to not respond so negatively to it....
I credit the Christ for breaking through to me this life giving truth...I think watching you (self proclaimed adhder) continue to read and respond w/ empathy in an attempt to give understanding to hurting people (life myself plenty of times) who's anger and pain is directed at a label instead of having the power for acceptance of the reality of their spouse's living of life. Is an awesome thing...Not many people can set aside their feelings and emotions long enough to see (observe) the only way (or at least the way) there spouse will get through this life...
Why can people like my wife; be great friends that people will laugh at, and even love....But heading home from a visit w/her even though there are smiles and fond memories...There is also a deep thankfulness they are departing to a more sane (calm) environment...LOL...I had friends like this growing up, but, most grew up...Some as you stated have areas that may have not developed in a way that allows for self observation and the power or ability to control impulses at level others may posses....
When we stop and think about all of these things....Stop talking, Stop seeking to fix...And just observe...We can be so much better equipped to know what to do or say if anything:)
Got to run! I really do appreciate you J...
Blessings C...
C, that was amazing
Submitted by dedelight4 on
"You described the exact same thing I experience too. To the letter: "She likes to make plans based around her living of life, then come to me present it, and say I want us to do this...This has gone on for 9 years...Very seldom if ever has she came to me w/ a thought about something and said...What do you feel about so and so? It's always her wanting me to oblige (comply) her and her planned activity. No matter what my feelings are about the subject, or if I even have any...."
C, you explained this about what your wife does...........my husband does the EXACT same thing. And then J, said his wife ALSO does the same thing. AMAZING. This is truly amazing to me, that anyone else has been living this. It's also a relief too, because I've felt alone with this for a long, long time. People have seen me as "weak" for not forcing him to do something ELSE, and demand that I get more of MY way in these things.
Many of our disastrous plans that have fallen through, and decisions that have gone wrong have started out because of this. He never has ever come to me FIRST to ask me "What do you think about this"? It's always what he PLANS for us to do, and expects me to go along with it, and is disappointed if I don't share his excitement, or if I see some danger in what he's planned. Too many times, he went ahead and did what he wanted, against my better judgment and something went terribly wrong, usually costing us tons of time, money, relationship togetherness and sanity. And, he ends up blaming someone else for what went "wrong", but, I believe now, that this has been a coping mechanism for him. Dr. Russell Barkley (who I am still listening to) explains the part of the brain dysfunction in this, that won't allow for certain decisions to get from the "thought part" to the "doing part", and then to the "consequences part". fascinating stuff.
When we had a discussion (sort of fight, but then more discussion) about this last weekend, he got real depressed about all his 'plans' never working out. And, now he's real down on himself because "Nothing ever works out for me", he keeps saying. (victim stance again) and that is frustrating. He seems to not be able to get past his "IQ" thing. Yes, he was tested when he was younger and was tested at 165, which is supposed to be a "genius' level IQ, I guess. He also keeps saying, 'Someone should have TOLD ME I had a gift, and told me what to do with it'.
But, from hearing the stories from his youth, I don't think many people could have "told" him much of anything, because he believed himself to be "special' because he got straight A's in school. Everyone else was a "moron' (his favorite term) because they DIDN'T get straight A's. (a childish thought pattern for sure) But, his mother didn't help with this either, she encouraged his false sense of achievement, by making him "the one good thing she's done, because he turned out right, and her other two kids turned out wrong". (her words)
I held my anger, but was hurt inside, and said, "I need to be the first person you come to when you discuss plans for us, and talk it over with me, so that we can decide these things together", because what you decide also affects my life, and what I decide can affect your life, so we need to be on the same page for decisions to work and be the best for BOTH of us. And, then if they don't work out, at least we will know we did it TOGETHER, and we will work something else out. When he would come up with an "idea" for us, he would call everyone he knows to get their feedback, and of course friends and such will "okay" everything, but then he wouldn't talk to ME. Almost like the child who knows Mom will say NO, so I'll got to Dad to say Yes, and then I"ll get to do what I want to do, sort of thing. But, he could never, ever, see the long range consequences of what any particular action or decision was going to do. "You can't say that, because you don't KNOW that's going to happen", he would say. When, many times, those things were flagrantly obvious, "he couldn't SEE them, so it didn't exist", until it would happen. And, these things would take place over and over again, which is in all the ADHD books, etc.
He is in a very "low" place right now, and in a depression because his friends that he thought were "morons" in high school, now have large houses, well paying jobs, children, successful lives, cars, take vacations, have bank accounts, etc. and, he doesn't have any of that. And, he doesn't understand why HE didn't succeed when his "moron" friends did, because HE was supposed to since he was this "genius". (which he says) Until he puts the ADHD in it's rightful "place", and wants to know the why's of what keeps happening to him, I think he will stay "stuck" in this place.
C and J..........both of you have talked about the FEAR, that holds everyone back from exposing those REALLY FEARFUL things inside that they are so afraid of anyone knowing about, but we can all see anyway. I wish I could tell him that. I've SEEN all these things, and have still been there for him, encouraged him through all this stuff. But, the years have worn me out from this, because he keeps hiding in it. When does one just say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH WITH YOU, STOP IT ALREADY, because if you won't trust me enough to BELIEVE that I have your best interests at heart, along with my own, then you are choosing to stay right where you ARE. It can be different, and things can work out better if we BOTH do it and choose it together, which also seems like another "control" issue he can't let go of.
( It was very cool to read about the insight that J's wife found out about herself. )
So I will borrow J's reminder to himself here Dede.... KISS...
Submitted by c ur self on
So we have identified a common behavior...So what questions does it raise?? What conclusions or theory's can we deduce about the effects on us and the relationship?? ..
If a person posses a sincere desire to serve, love and share in a beautiful and intimate relationship, what happens to them when subjected to this reality we have identified as common??
One question is raises for me is...Is gas lighting more or less, self inflicted?? Is it the result, or the effect on our minds when living with the pressure of (for no better way to say it) not being considered, or heard, or recognized as an equal part of the equation; the definition of the word relationship?? Aren't we (the partners) feeling the effects (isn't it changing us) of not being loved or considered??
Doesn't this go against every thing our hearts cry out for in a 2=1 existence??
What has caused me to turn to full acceptance?? Isn't it to limit the effects on my emotions and my psyche?? Where else could I go to find peace in this relationship?? All the fighting and pointing it out, has only caused harm. harm on top of harm??
(Back to my W) The veil of shame is slowly easing down...Ever so slowly!...But last night a tiny golden nugget of awareness rolled out....As she walked off after a brief exchange she said one sentence, one small statement of awareness...I don't even know if she was aware it.LOL....**comical hey... questioning if someone was aware of an awareness statement**
But she murmured these words...I know, but, I have been unable to change......
What was she responding too?? She has always made statements to me like..."You should have realized who you married" Or "You don't want to accept who I am"...Last night I pointed out to her...Everything God's word calls Husbands and Wives to be, is completely different from how we live as Single individuals...So in essence we become new people at the alter. (new responsibility, new accountability) As a matter of fact that is what the alter is all about...We Vow it....That's when she whirled around and headed out of the living room and murmured her comment....I know, but, I have been unable to change....
I don't want to hurt my wife, nor do I want to hurt myself by placing unrealistic expectations...No matter how realistic the same expectations are in other peoples marriages....So I will continue to accept her, and walk away from what I feel isn't going to bring Glory to God in this relationship....Dede, J....That's just where I'm at or I should say it's my attempted goal to experience as peaceful of a life as possible w/ my W.....My reality....
C
Comment
Submitted by thparkle on
I like your post but you don't get to decide whether you are a victim. This implies that we are responsible for being abused. As a victim of sexual assault I really hope people will choose their words more carefully. We have limited power, accepting that allows us to avoid abused but sometimes we must accept that it has happened. Being abused and then responding in anger is also not refusing to be a victim; it's being angry about being a victim.