It is very difficult to communicate with a spouse who can't speak their feelings...What is the reason for this? Is it the absents of the ability to mold words around convictions? Is it fear of commitment to the call on their life TO BE a spouse? Is it the inability to SEE and FEEL what the role of a H or W is?
Denial of what is healthy and right will always make our relationships completely hopeless until the light comes on for each person....(Responsibility of what it means to be a spouse AND Ownership of my current thinking, feelings and resulting behaviors, as it compares to this role I am responsible for)...
We are all human, and we will make mistakes, we will believe untruths, and we will have to battle our own selfishness....But when I, or my spouse refuses to give effort (do the work) and also refuses to even communicate the reality of what we are making important.....Then there is no hope for that relationship to move into a healthy state....
C
Communication Breakdown
Submitted by jennalemone on
"refuses to even communicate the reality of what we are making important"
Yes. This seems like the non-communicative style H has. I am not sure if he is refuses to communicate or if he uses denial so completely that he has no reality....only diversions.
C, We seem to be in the same place today.
:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I often wonder about the ability to be aware of her words and actions (to be able to control it), I really don't think she can at times...There fore shame is large for her...I do want to give grace in this area....So just not taking it all seriously is vital for me....
Blessings Sister and Happy Thanksgiving!
C
Communication Breakdown
Submitted by ADHD From Birth on
Ask your non-communicative husband if he feels that he has a safe space to share difficult thoughts and feelings with you. His answer may provide insight.
A thought. I think it is
Submitted by vabeachgal on
A thought. I think it is also beneficial to look at the entire communication pattern. I mean, is the difficult communication pattern only exhibited at home, within the marriage, or in other areas of life also? Is it lack of a safe place to discuss difficult feelings and thoughts with the spouse or is it an inhibition from discussing difficult thoughts and feelings altogether? It's easy to pin it on not having a "safe place" but I think the situation also warrants a deep dive into communication in general. My husband does not share difficult feelings and thoughts with me. Or anyone else, for that matter. He may not feel safe with me, but I think the bigger issue is that he doesn't feel safe discussing them at all. Ever. Again, not just ADHD... he lost his parents at 8 and 17. He closed up. However, the general lack of intimate conversation in the marriage begat more non-communication as I tried to draw him out and failed. Marriages don't typically begin in failure but in hope and effort.
Does the individual share with anyone? For example, is he communicative and forthright at work? (no, my H deflects at work as well. He simply does so in a manner that is benign enough to not get him in real trouble.) Does he communicate openly and honestly with the children? (No, my 19 year old son cried on the way to my Mom's house because my H bailed out on Thanksgiving as we were leaving the house and didn't have the courtesy to discuss this with him prior to departure. I kind of knew for a week he wasn't going but I definitely also assumed that he would not share his intention to the last minute. Is this my fault for not providing a safe place? I don't think so because it has been the standard of communication from the beginning, even when things were great. He doesn't do difficult or unpleasant and doens't think he owes anyone communication.) With the rest of the family? With his siblings and/or parents? (No, definitely no communication with siblings.) What about a close friend? In my case, my H has a pattern of lying and lack of communication with other family members, with the children, and with people at work. One of the saddest things, in my opinion, is that he has long-term friends and hasn't developed a depth of friendship that allows him to talk about things and share feelings.The friends that he has are good people and I would feel trusting of their advice and only moderately irritated that he was discussing things outside the house. I value my friends who bring another perspective to my life and, from time to time, provide a much needed kick in the pants.
Your question is a valid question. No doubt my H would say 'not safe' at this point because of 15 years of lying. I don't approach his communications with an open heart because I've been lied to so often. On the other hand, when he went to therapy, one of his take aways is that he lies to all people all the time.
Good question, but I would also suggest broadening the terms to ask if the non-communicative H talks to anyone openly and honestly. Is it just me because I don't provide a safe place or is it a lifelong pattern of non-communication?
My question to you is this: Did you never have a safe place with your wife or did the feelings of not being safe evolve as untreated and undiagnosed ADHD held sway in the marriage? Did she start out angry and lashing out? I didn't start out not trusting my husband. I learned new behavior as I learned to not trust him.
A thought. I think it is
Submitted by ADHD From Birth on
I'm sorry you're going through this difficulty and heartache. If you and your husband haven't already done so, I encourage you both to take the "ADHD Effect On Marriage" course and do the course homework. Applying what we learned made a huge improvement in our communication and overall marriage.
To answer your question: At the beginning or our relationship, I felt I had a safe space with my wife. I felt comfortable discussing difficult topics with her. Then, the day after our eldest child was born, Martians kidnapped the warm wonderful woman I married and substituted a domineering, hyper-critical, verbally abusive lookalike. The safe space disappeared and did not reappear for 26 years.
When I look back on the lack of safe space, neither of us was entirely to blame. We both played a part in this negative dynamic. My ADHD (and all the negative patterns that resulted) was a significant factor in the disappearance of the safe space. Our poor conflict resolution skills that we learned in our respective families of origin played a huge role too. In conflict, her go to strategy was fight; mine was flight. We have differing communication styles. She thinks quickly on her feet and expresses herself easily. I take time to process, gather my thoughts and speak, for which she had no patience for once our children were born. In summary, the stress of caring for a difficult infant started a chain reaction were all of our negative behaviours (and negative responses to our partners' negative behaviours) manifested themselves and took over our marriage.
What happened is analogous to a business that does well during stress-free boom times (our courtship and early days of marriage). However, due to its inherent weaknesses and flaws, it flounders during periods of stress and may not recover.
Hmmm. I wonder if she wasn't
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Hmmm. I wonder if she wasn't experiencing a little post partum depression? Depression often manifests as anger and irritability. And she was without doubt exhausted. I get more irritable when I'm exhausted. I don't have extra reserves of good behavior or the ability to edit when I'm feeling at the edge of exhaustion. For me, the biggest part of self care is adequate sleep. The care of children is very stressful. I can say that almost any time I've been super angry and lashed out, anger hasn't been my primary emotion but rather the cover. From time to time, I've legitimately responded to a situation with anger. (debt, dating sites = legitimate anger) It's easier to be angry than to acknowledge and face fear, sadness or overwhelm. Not all the time, but often, when I expressed anger toward my husband it's because I wasn't getting what I needed. I needed and wanted help, support and connection. No, it's not an adult reaction. That's what kids do - misbehave for attention. But... sigh... when all else failed, I guess my unconscious kicked in to 2 year old status. My natural response to most stressful things is to deal with it, take care of it the best I can at the time, and move on to face another day. So, I took care of things. Everything. At one point my H actually confessed that the reason he didn't do things is because he knew if he didn't, I would do it anyway and he could then choose if he wanted to or not. It was very conscious and deliberate.
Thank you for the suggestion. There is no way my H will read a book, participate in a seminar, etc. To him, there is a label for the problem and that's all she wrote.... he trots it out as an excuse every now and then... "you know I have a problem..." He is currently self medicating with beer and diet pills rather than the prescription that was given to him, which he went off cold turkey.
I will ask
Submitted by jennalemone on
I will ask H if he feels he has a safe place to share difficult thoughts and feelings....just to see what his actual answer would be. It will be interesting if he would have any response other than, "What in the hell are you talking about?" H was a salesman for much of his adult life. He teases, deflects, laughs ands says "ah-huh" and "yup" to and and all questions from anyone. He does not share anything of substance with anyone. He tries to be the funny salesman to me at the most inappropriate times. He is an independent man with independent boundaries. He just does not share himself and is proud that no one can "get" at him. The product of being like this is that there can be no intimacy with anyone else...he is an actor - not just with me.
I think... it's both.
Submitted by kellyj on
I was thinking about the nuts and bolts of ADHD inside our brains.... and anything that puts an extra burden on it or taxes it.... makes things more difficult than they already are at times. Just from watching somebody else and not myself ie: it was much easier for me to see it in someone else then it was myself. This always comes at the worst possible time of course... When you're not ready, when you're not prepared, when you already have brain fatigue ( at night or the end of the day).... and then someone approaches you and wants to talk about a difficult topic or conversation when they want to talk about it ....and you're just not up to it.... which probably feels like all the time because these windows are so few and far between.
Actually I've got a rhythm or biorhythm and my windows are always the same every day and I know the best time to do it and the worst time to do it.
Murphy's law says people will pick the worst time always... it's never one when my body and brain can handle it. That's a big part of this I think.
The ADHD dysfunction, and especially if not on medication specifically stimulant medication...OMG. it's 10 times easier now to Broach a difficult subject and have to discuss it for any. Of time while thinking about what you're trying to say accessing your emotions and concentrating extremely hard to get the words out right. When I was unmedicated I do remember... When hid out of nowhere seemingly, and always at a bad time ie: at the end of the day when my battery was already going dead and my tank was empty ( my neurotransmitters were all used up for the day and I was running on fumes ) trying to talk about my feelings and trying to get the words out and think about those two things at the same time was damn near impossible... It only made my head hurt which is something to avoid. I think it's exactly why people with ADHD snap... They get irritated... And they're so inconsistent. The Adderall makes me consistent... and it gives me the extra added brain power to do this without too much of a problem.
Is it an inability completely?
I think... Depending on the person and the severity of their ADHD.... if it's too hard to do it, and too much work for you...you won't... and if you don't do it... you don't get any practice at it.... and if you don't get any practice at it.... you're not very good at it.... like a first grader trying to learn to read and write.
Picture any time in your past when you had to cram for a test.... or learn anything new that requires continuous Focus and concentration.... I'm sure everyone has experienced some time in their life when they run out of steam upstairs. It's like the example I gave once of opening and closing your fist repeatedly until all the blood runs out of your fingers and you can't move your hand anymore. That is the ADHD inability. Your body only has so many neurotransmitters to produce at anyone given point in time... and with the racing brain and the lack of filters... they get used up really fast. It's why they give you Adderall.... Adderall ads the extra oomph... to get you all the way to the top of the hill and down the other side.
I think this is where neurotypical people have a difficult time understanding. Of course you do... You do not experience this except under extreme circumstances like cramming all night for a final exam. Once I used to get done with an exam I'd come home and collapse on the bed in exhaustion and immediately take a nap .
In little ways... On a daily basis... that happens all day everyday. Where the roller coaster comes from.
So does that mean a person with ADHD can't help being irritated, snapping and lashing out at people, refusing to communicate or just avoiding it entirely and can't do it at all?
No.... but now add the extra add the extra dimension of... is it safe to even engage with someone is already treating you like a hostile interloper?... That just bumps this up a notch and makes it that much more difficult.
But consider someone who's never tried or never got over that initial hump in the learning curve... they always turned and went to the bottom of the hill and never attempted to do it again. Does that mean they can't do it and they are completely not capable? As my swim coach used to always say to us when we would ask him...." can I swim butterfly??? ( meaning in the next set exercise ).... his response was always " not very well". LOL. Smart ass! He was also a high school teacher what more can you say?
I think timing is everything... Just like my swim coach, he never missed a beat. LOL
J
J, thank you
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Thank you for the insight. Of course I've had times when I've been too fatigued to engage in anything more than staring at the wall. But I don't feel like that all the time, I know it when it happens, and I can articulate to someone else "definitely, not now." I guess it is difficult for my husband. The problem is, as you mentioned, if you never get over the hurdle and there never is a good time to address deep feelings, emotions and serious topics. It seems that it requires a few things that are difficult with ADHD. 1. Awareness that now is not good. 2. Awareness from the non-ADHD that now may not be good and 3. The ability to "reschedule" and keep it in mind and eventually get to it. I think the eventually get to it part is where folks in relationships get tripped up. It becomes a never. I'm talking about non treated and non medicated. Then the cycle begins. Person A wants to talk and is put off. Maybe person A could handle a delay. Person B doesn't keep it in mind and never brings it up again. A brings it up again but it's still a "bad time". Person B gets upset. Person A gets upset that discussions aren't happening. It's crazy. If the cycle goes on long enough and you add the toxic mix of anger, resentment and lashing out, there's no way on earth Person B will actively engage in a discussion which further fuels the fire. Person A runs out of patience.... it's ugly. What's the solution? More accommodations from Person A? Person B is finally treated and self-aware? Both. The dynamics upset what is necessary for a healthy, happy and intimate relationship. Now, if you add other trauma, like my H burying his emotional head in the sand because of the past or other issues, then.... wow... does it ever work out? He can't handle it emotionally and can't handle it ADHD-wise. Just plain can't handle it. After awhile, it's easy to blame me for not communicating when all along I wanted nothing more.
Yes VA.... Awareness versus Attention
Submitted by kellyj on
I remember the couples course and listening to Melissa give her well thought through talks in class. It was both validating for me as I listen to her to check off the list the things that I was already aware of. It was confirming for me to to hear what I already had come to the same conclusion and then done something about as a means to check in to see just help well I've done on my own.... so I was listening for new things, things I had yet to become aware of or realize were associated with my ADHD.
One of these little sound bites that resonated for me personally... was when she was using her husband as an example. She wasn't criticizing him or even complaining, she was simply making an observation and stating that when he didn't take his meds.... he couldn't really see or was it where of the subtle changes meaning.... difference it was for her experiencing him between when he was on his meds and he wasn't yet he reported not being aware of those changes since they were so subtle and existed somewhat under the radar however, it was enough of a change to make a difference or an impact on her even if he didn't realize it.
Yes... That speaks to the same thing. I can remember clearly as a child being annoyed when my hyper focus bubble was burst.... that is, I was in my head so deep all the time and deepen hyper-focus that it felt like somebody was intruding or interrupting me and that's highly annoying I'm sure I responded and reacted with irritation which only LED to the symptom response response dynamic with the other person... Namely my parents, getting me a piece of their mind and a scolding. All of that was completely outside of my awareness.... me getting lost in my head and deep in my own thoughts or hyper focusing on something so intently that I tuned out everything else. This comes across as you not listening because the fact of the matter is... It's not that you're not listening it's that you can't hear the other person... which is more to the point. If you are too deep into your head to your own thoughts you can't hear the other person.... that is an inability but it comes from not being aware enough that you do this and what is actually happening in the moment right now. The now... Not now... affect or as I experience it... The visible... Becomes invisible. The hyper-focus allows you to filter what is not being filtered and it gives your brain a break from being inundated with too many unorganized or disorganized thoughts streaming into your head when you're trying to think of things to say. If I were to simply speak it as the stream-of-consciousness appears in my head.... it would just come out as a a bunch of incoherent isolated thoughts and statements that do not integrate together into any understandable form. As a kid I'm sure I did that all the time.... but all I was aware of was not being understood and becoming frustrated and irritated. Of course that's not my fault I can't help that happening..... but of course now looking back and being medicated for long enough I have something to compare it to and I'm fully aware that this happens without me stepping in and intervening people would just get these things in their Raw form which to not follow the rules of the written English language in a way that everyone can understand. I take it for granted that this is happening now and even if I'm not aware always every moment, I'm aware that if I don't pay attention and watch myself that it will revert to what I experienced as a child. Also... Being on the other side of it and listening to somebody else doing it.... I can't understand it either.... they're not my thoughts and ideas coming from me I have no idea what somebody else is thinking and feeling unless they speak it in a way I can understand. Clamming up and not saying anything... doesn't give you a lot to work with now does it?
As a child.... I was simply reacting to my environment.... a victim of circumstance wherever I went with a complete inability to do anything about it and totally unaware. That was one of the first things I noticed when I went on medication..... suddenly the tunnel vision opened up to a wide field of view like a big screen TV instead of looking through a telescope. I had to have the experience of being on medication and viewing the big screen TV.... before I could see a difference between looking through a telescope and viewing a widescreen field of view? I take it for granted that I hyper-focus or get distracted.... it is a shifting of attention problem..... not a deficit of attention even though.... for the onlooker experiencing it it looks like a lack of it or a deficit which is not the case. Take a photograph or The Art of Photography for example.... how you frame the picture and what you include in the photograph is the composition or what it's composed of and its parts. Viewing the world through a telescope or a tunnel.... is going to have a different composition then seeing it through a wide-angle lens. A lot of information is missing or outside of your awareness when you crop a photograph down to emphasize or to include only part of the available scene. With intention you do this to create a specific effect or emotional response.. but if you're simply trying to see as much as you can to gather information.... the easier it is to Simply get what you need out of the picture instead of searching for it or needing more than is there.
I am aware that this happens even if I'm not aware of it always in the moment... I take it for granted that it does and just know that as fact. I don't have to second-guess myself I know it happens even if I don't notice it always right then when it's happening. I have my own little telltale's or cues that let me know it is by the feedback that I see in others that lets me extrapolate.... as a means to make up for what is missing or outside of my awareness. Not only am I aware of it but I'm looking for it as well.
Contrast that to me as a kid who just reacted in irritation like everyone was intruding on me and interrupting my headspace... not until I had something to compare it to to show me the difference. That's the confirmation I need it instead of taking it for granted and sweeping it under the rug... I take for granted that I do it and now I'm always looking for it. The ADHD hasn't changed... I've just changed what I do about it.
There's a perfect Analogy here that I think directly correlates.... back to an example I learned when I learned to Sail.
For those who don't know anything about sailing... There is a phenomenon called "Apparent Wind" which is straight to the point. And actually as I was thinking about this.... it is similar to the concept of special relativity... just to make a correlation in a physical sense.
If you're in a sailboat and moving at a constant rate of speed and One Direction..... the wind will be shifting and changing as well. When does invisible but we know it's there. We can seal it on our skin, we can see the trees blow and there's no question that wind exists and is there and happening right then in the moment. Wind is invisible.... but we are fully aware of the force that wind has and how it affects us.
But on a sailboat.... all bets are off you cannot use your skin anymore as an accurate way to know which way the wind is blowing. That's because you're moving in a different direction and the wind is hitting you at different angles... without a reference or something fixed that you can look at it is instantly confusing and sometimes extremely difficult to tell unless you use Tell Tales.... little strings that hang off the sail that blow independently of the real wind Direction... Not the apparent wind. Apparent only to those sitting in the boat and no one else.... I'll give you one simple example that's easy to understand.
If you are moving in One Direction into the wind.... you are traveling at one rate of speed in One Direction.... and the wind is blowing at another rate of speed straight into you into your face. This has a doubling effect as it feels on your skin.... feels like....20 knots, when the real wind speed is actually 10. This of course is deceiving. Looking at your tail tails... they'll be going directly horizontal as the wind passes over it going from front to back....
Now turn around and go the other way with the Wind. Now you are moving at 10 knots of speed... The same speed as the wind.... when that happens, it feels like there's no wind but this is simply not true. You feel no wind on your skin.. and the tell Tales will fall and hang vertically or just flail around loose since there is no apparent wind that you feel? Is there no real wind.... of course not that would be ridiculous. Anyone standing stationary on the shore would tell you you were crazy if you told him there's no wind? Can you imagine that argument? And can you imagine someone standing there insisting that well because I can't feel wind then therefore there isn't any? You would think they're crazy and you absolutely know they were wrong which is absolutely true. But they're getting irritated and frustrated and agitated and insisting that there is no wind.... even as they stand there on the shore having this argument with you while the winds blowing in their face. "No...No.... there's no wind, here I'll prove it to you" as they get you into the boat and start sailing down the river in the same direction as the wind and of course..... because the apparent wind is 0 when you're traveling at the same speed as the wind it feels like there's no wind? Apparent wind versus real wind... They are two different things. All that person did was to prove a parent wind and there's no apparent wind... but as they're saying it they're insisting that there's no wind... because that's what it feels like. Feelings versus... What you know is true. Apparent wind... Compared to real wind.... only the telltales can show you this in a way that can be seen. You cannot use apparent wind to Sail by you'd be sailing all over the place zigzagging back and forth trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing! That is what having ADHD is at times. If you are completely unaware of apparent wind.... you will argue that there's no wind based only how it feels to you, the person sitting in The Boat ... not the person standing stationary on shore feeling the real wind moving over their skin. This information is useless I will just serve to confuse you if you try to use the same criteria and the same means of measure when trying to determine the difference between the apparent wind that you feel and the real wind that's blowing. It's the first thing you notice when you first try to Sail a boat and if it's completely disoriented kind of like vertigo. After enough experience with this and making these comparisons you begin to get a feel for how you need how you need to compensate for it. Your skin sensing ability becomes recalibrated to a certain degree to get you in the ballpark. If you're trying to race another sailboat however.... you're trying to maximize your speed... in that case to perfect this you need to use tell Tales, when veins on top of the mast and a compass in order to dial this into perfection. Those are all external cues and without them it makes it difficult to do.
For me now for example in a social setting.... you could literally use non-verbal cues with me and I'll get it instantly. A simple touching my skin on my wrist very unobtrusively would be a signal.... or like a code word done in Braille.... a tactile external Q. I am extremely tactile sensitive.... much better than hearing. I am aware of my attention issues, and I touch on my wrist gives me my cue.
An interesting phenomenon that I've noticed because of my hearing. My nerves and auditory senses are working just fine. I simply have restricted passageways that tend to muffle or block certain frequencies or sounds so I will miss a word or two when people speak to me. If I miss the important noun or verb in the sentence.... I'm missing the most important part in order to understand what the person is saying?
This I've been aware of all my life for decades and decades and it's interesting now being fully aware of this to watch how people respond to this which by default seems to be something like this.
" did you see that dog over there by the tree, he's looking for something?"
" pardon me by the what?"... only missing the word tree and not one other word" sounded like tree but it could be free, or Ski... but I'm absolutely not sure?
" what are you deaf....(speaking now loudly like I'm deaf)...."DID YOU SEE THE DOG BYE THE TREE...HE IS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING!!" Over enunciate in every word as if I'm completely deaf while I only asked for the one word to be clarified..... you're the one who said the damn sentence... finish this for me... by the what? What word came after "by the"........ aaaaaahhhhhh..... tree? Yes....
So why did you respond to my question and my excusing myself 2 repeating the entire sentence over again articulating it like I was deaf and giving me what I didn't ask for? Why did you do that?
Aaaaahhhh..... cuz you're deaf?
See what I mean? Apparent wind.... very much like special relativity with the two trains moving at different rate of speeds at different directions past each other time and space continuum blah blah blah LOL
If you are not aware of this much and that this is what's happening then you're not aware. In the moment your attention make it diverted and you may not be aware of 10 seconds depends.... does that mean you're not aware of anything ever? In my example I was only missing the word tree in order to understand the sentence.
"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?"
There is no wind!!!! You're wrong!!
African Sparrow... Or european Sparrow?
Uh..I don't know?......woosh.... into the casm of Eternal despair with you. Runaway!!! Monty Python... still one of my favorites :)
J
You described it well....
Submitted by c ur self on
Hi J, I agree w/ all you say here...(experience it in our relationship)...It's just hard to share things you know want be understood, because it has to be experienced...(It's like trying to tell others about our marriages...Unless you experience them, words run a poor second,)
Counselors try to help couples communicate....So does Melissa, But if a mind is locked in protection mode, Or worse, "denial" and just refuses to discuss what it's like to live in their head....No one can break them....So years and years can go by for some of these spouses....And no real honest heart felt sharing (communication) ever takes place...It's a sad thing...Committed Spouses starving for the closeness they thought would be the product of their vows....
Blessings Friend...
C
C, I believe some of this is an inability
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I just re-read "Love Is A Choice", which is an enlightening book. It talks in detail about codependency. We often think in such negative terms about codependency, and won't look at what it actually IS.
My husband is VERY co-dependent, but would argue with me ANGRILY that he is not. He has been a massive " workaholic", which stems from a codependency from his family of origin. Workaholism has been seen as a "positive" trait until the last few years. It has destroyed multiple families, and the workaholic will deny till they are blue in the face that they have an "addiction". They DO. He came from an " addict" family, but since he wasn't a "drug addict or alcoholic"..... he believed he was NOT an addict. He is, because of what he was taught, but more what he WASNT TAUGHT as a child.
My husband can NOT communicate his thoughts well at all, but he believes he does. Denial is STRONG in these people and families, and there's a lot of them. His inability to see and FEEL empathy, and return love and patience given to him, is an INABILITY to do so. CAN HE LEARN THESE THINGS? I don't know. Can he learn empathy as an adult? Can he verbally tell me loving things? Can he NOT be awkward in bodily actions and connections with family and/or coworkers? I don't know. He has ALWAYS had trouble in every job, with getting along with some people, and botches things up on a regular basis. It's always the " other persons" fault. His bi-polar mother would blame people also. She OVER praised him for things you and I would find commonplace, and just common courtesy. It seemed to create an overinflated opinion of his abilities,, within himself, when he couldn't actually DO basic "courtesies" and communicate positive words and phrases or actions. Growing up in a family where a child is neglected, and doesn't get a solid sense of "self" can cause the child to grow up codependent, where they grow up searching to fill that "hole" from no solid parenting and/love or stability. We BOTH have these "holes" from really crappy parenting. I have tried to learn and understand the how's and why's of this, and my husband continues to NOT want to look at these issues and/or his childhood. But, ESPECIALLY not want to look at who his mother was. She became the "suffering saint" to him, when she wasn't at all. SHE was the problem.
He's just beginning to recognize issues in our lives, but its slow. But, the changes in me have been profound, and I had to withdraw a lot of emotion, and attachment for self survival. Not sure how this will turn out. Its better,but has a LONG way to go.
This line really struck me:
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
This line really struck me: "I had to withdraw a lot of emotion, and attachment for self survival." I did this, too, first in my marriage and now in my relationship to my ex-husband. As an example, I mentioned in a different thread that I hadn't told him about my dog having cancer because I knew he wouldn't show empathy. When he found out, accidentally, he said, "Well, she's old anyway...." The pain I felt at hearing that brush-off reinforced my decision to build a wall around my emotions with my ex. Meanwhile, I have talked about the dog to many other people, much less "related" to me than my ex-husband, and have almost invariably received empathy or sympathy, including in some cases very heartfelt stories about their own dogs or other pets.
Cognitive Dissonance... and Dismissive Pattern of Defense
Submitted by kellyj on
As I read your response to Dede PI..... I recognize this immediately. Yes.. the brush-off, the sweeping it under the rug, all in avoidance of the cognitive dissonance of hearing about a death of pet. "Well, she was old anyway..." it sounds very dismissive but I wonder now if this is not more of what is actually happening.
As he experiences it the second he begins to feel the cognitive dissonance of learning about a death or loss... Instead of feeling it he avoids it and takes a hard right turn to dismissing it and putting it out of his mind. So he doesn't have to feel it.... it's too much to bear and too overwhelming to his senses... in an effort to protect his emotional state and keep his emotions in check..... dismissing becomes the pattern, it becomes a habit that he's unaware of. He may not even be aware of any of it he just does it to protect his emotions.
I'm sure he has the ability for empathy unless he really has it dysfunction and Falls more in a cluster B disorder as well as ADHD? It's a distinct possibility, but I don't know? I can't tell you why he does it but I recognize it none the less?
And with you... Are you aware of what you wanted? You wanted him to respond to your emotional state and acknowledge your feelings. Look at what's Happening Here....
You're saying you had to build a wall around your emotions to protect them... But that's what he's doing. He takes a hard right turn detour every time he comes to a place that the begins to feel uncomfortable. Cognitive dissonance hurts... it's a painful experience. If the habit or method that he found works best to protect his feelings and emotions is to immediately dismiss them and sweep them under the rug .... brush them off. It manifests itself the same way with you.... and you respond in kind however, you can't dismiss it like he does, that doesn't work for you. You need something else which is what you want and he's simply not giving it to you... But you have to understand why?
Why do you need to understand? For me it's so I don't take it personally. You're disappointed that you're not getting what you need... but you're reacting to him protecting his emotions and Walling them off... as an offense to you, a sign of disrespect, or a sign of not caring and no empathy? Maybe he is a cluster B personality... and maybe he's so highly sensitive that any cognitive dissonance at all is too much to handle.
Him Walling off his emotions, is causing you to wall off your emotions. The symptom is him protecting his emotions from cognitive dissonance and the pain.... your response is to wall off your emotions to protect yourself from his symptom.... his response to you is to retreat and withdraw and move away from you. No one gets what they want and everyone loses. You may assume that he experiences these things the same as you but I would gather he does not.
You're coming to him or wanting something he can't do.... he could overtime with a lot of work and effort and training himself to deal and cope with his cognitive dissonance.... to learn to live with it and sit with it and not stuff it down or sweep it under the rug. That would take a retraining and forming a new pattern or habit and breaking the old pattern and the maladaptive strategy that he's using. It doesn't go away, but he's learned to simply not deal with it as a strategy. For self-protection, to put a wall around his emotions so he doesn't feel the pain. What goes around comes around... And tag now you're it. Passing the buck... Hot potato.
And what Dede said is very much like my example of apparent wind. DD's husband's entire family is sailing in a boat going down river... they will all feel no wind and say there is none.
If everyone is feeling the same thing and the conclusion is wrong... then that becomes the status quo for the entire family.
And as DeDe pointed out with his mother who is bipolar..... she set the stage long and the codependent dynamic or everyone has to cater to her just disfunction probably long before he was born. The status quo of the entire family is skewed.... even if he is 10° less than they are.... he's still doing the same thing.
. If everyone in that boat swears there's no wind... By simply what it feels like.. then they are all wrong because none of them are aware of what is actually happening around them, to them, and coming to the wrong assumption based only on their feelings alone. This is not only deceptive... it's simply lead you to the wrong conclusion.
Everyone on Shore standing stationary watching that family sail down river will see them, think that's something wrong with them based on the breeze that's blowing on their face and the trees swaying back and forth in the Wind. The real wind that they feel. If they all climbed in the boat with that family.... they would go... "Well ...you don't feel any wind because you're applying it to apparent wind ....not real wind. Apparent wind is illusionary... it's not real, not really based on the Wind that's blowing but only what it feels like to you when you're sitting in the boat sailing down river. Don't you understand.... You're trying to use apparent wind and saying it's real wind. You're all wrong."
"No we're not. We don't feel any wind right family! Get the hell out of our boat you crazy people!"
J
Hi, J. I agree that my ex
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Hi, J. I agree that my ex struggles with emotions. That's why I tried to avoid the issue even coming up, by not telling him about the dog. What happened is that he arrived suddenly and unannounced at my house, because our daughter was visiting, and she happened to mention something about the dog's health. I understand that my ex's avoidance of potentially emotional topics could be fear based. So I don't go there (that is, to emotion-laden topics) for the most part. By taking that action, I protect him but I give up much that I desire.
J, great post, love the wind example
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Awesome analogies J. Thank you. My husband would also say the same thing about the dog. "Well, it was old" and he's done this with other circumstances......seemingly has no "emotions" and offers an "answer" to the problem, but its not an emotional connection. He even prides himself in being more "analytical", and NOT " emotional, which he sees a lot of distain in someone being. (Like putting me down in the past for having an emotional reaction to something that even WARRANTS an emotional response)
The thing IS, he DOES have extreme emotions, but works to "keep them in check", which actually means (to him) showing none at all, except anger. Why is anger always the " acceptable" emotion to show? Makes no sense. There are rewards in being able to openly be "emotional" in MANY and various circumstances. I think he closes himself off to many enjoyable moments by withholding himself from others AND me. But, he has found some sort of pride in his "withholding". It really has to be left over from his mother. She caterered to him like he was her " husband" instead of her son, and depended on him way more than she did her HUSBAND. (Not healthy for a son)
J, do you have any suggestions in responding (or not responding ) with people in denial of their lives? (Even denial of their denial) I enjoy your input in these blogs. You give us some very insightful and useful things to think about. Thanks again.
Hi Dede...
Submitted by c ur self on
To me; an attitude that says I'm fine (when the fruit of their life is chaotic and intrusive) creates an inability....Life is like a Picture frame...Inside that frame is a person....All the thoughts, feelings and behaviors are being produced in 4 dimensions.....The person in the picture frame, will always want to feel good about themselves...So they have a view of themselves....Everyone else has a better (non prejudice, no baggage) view of that same person...
Until I or anyone else inside that frame cares to SEE ourselves, more than we want to feel good about ourselves...We stay stuck....
When our hearts are humbled, and we come face to face w/ our thoughts, feelings and behaviors then we can grow, and flourish, then we can stop living in a world of blame, projections and judgements....
Then we have the ability to see what everyone else sees....
C