I can't remember the last time I posted, I suppose it has been almost 2 years. The roller coaster ride continues. I've made huge steps forward myself, I've managed to stop engaging about 75% of the time. Briefly, for those who don't know my history (it is all posted here in previous posts), we have been married 17 years (as of yesterday) and for a while things weren't terribly bad. Job loss, his mother dying, my father dying, an affair (he had), and major financial issues caused him to start spiraling out of control in 2009. He hit rock bottom (or so I thought) in spring 2012 and ended up in a facility. He seemed to get his life back on track, got another job (he lost his when he went into the facility), and was doing better than I had seen him in years. He had some issues, obviously, before 2009, but his ADHD was much controlled when he made a lot of money. I am not sure why, but his mood and happiness is directly related to money. Things started to decline in the fall of 2011 when I found out he was drinking again. They steadily declined and in the fall of 2012 I had pretty much given up on our marriage. He had started making comments about not being interested in spending time with me and about how he'd have never married me if he had known I would expect him to help around the house. We have a low functioning autistic son and I stayed home with the kids until he lost his job in 2012. I started working full time and was trying to get him to help, to no avail. I truly didn't think he cared. I developed a crush on a co-worker, sent a friend an e-mail about it, and he read my emails and got on my FB and saw where I was chatting with him. The email made it clear that nothing had happened or ever would happen, but he didn't believe it...even though I had no reason to lie because I had no intention of him ever reading it. We were friends as far as he or anyone else knew. It was a secret crush that I felt a lot of guilt about and the God's honest truth is that I had worked it out with God before it went further than a crush. The coworker never knew and it was over before my husband even knew anything about it.
He went completely off the deep end. I had never been afraid of him. I had never been threatened by him. We'd been married 15 years. He was threatening to kill me almost daily. I was having to grab my kids in the middle of the night and run and hide because he was becoming threatening. About two months into it, it had gotten so bad that the cops were called by my step daughter. He left before they arrived and that was the beginning of a two month separation. I felt guilty for hurting him and tried to appease him in every way I could, but enough was enough and I wasn't living with him and being afraid. He still continued to torment me through texts and threats so I finally went and stayed with family and refused to talk to him for several days. He finally knew I was serious and the threats stopped. Still, to this day, the ramifications of it all are very real. He is still drinking, increasing amounts. I work nights and appx once a week he will text me while I am at work and tell me he's leaving, is done living with me, he means it this time, he can't stay here anymore, etc. I've begged him to stop. You can imagine the emotional damage this does and how destructive it is to our marriage.
I've started working very hard at having peace in my life and have made it very clear to him that if that means I have to divorce him, I will. My sister moved to TX (very devastating for me) in Nov and as much as I do not want to leave TN, I've told him I would pack and move there and he'd never see me again if he cannot stop the mental abuse and threats. Over the course of the last few months he's been doing things, without going into details, that lead me to believe he's lying to me and quite possibly cheating. again. He emphatically denies it. He admits he's not doing well at all. He admits he's out of control. He admits he's got a drinking problem. He says often how unhappy he is and how miserable his life is. I've done everything but roll out the red carpet for him to just go and find whatever he thinks will make him happy. He has a counselor he loves that he won't go see. He still takes ADHD meds, but they obviously aren't going to work if he's drinking. He talks constantly of feeling guilt for what he's done to me and about how I deserve better than him. He hates his job too, he says. He works for a local Christian university and is getting a free education. He had a diploma when he started, he's now a junior and will have his Bachelors in IT within 18 months or so. He does nothing but complain and moan about how much he HATES school.
What compelled me to write is a conversation we had last night...the night of our anniversary. We're flipping through the stations and he sees the PBS special "ADHD and loving it". He watches for one segments, turns off the TV, starts crying and says it was eye opening and it was nice to know he wasn't alone. He then proceeds to tell me he only keeps his jobs for me and the kids...adding that he feels like complete sh!t about himself because he resents me for it. He says something along the lines of "what kind of a$$hole am I for resenting you for it?" Also, I am constantly telling him that all I want is for him to be nice to me, for us to have peace and get along. He says last night that he has never been nice to me, not in 17 years, and that is because no one ever taught him now to be nice. Honestly, I wanted to punch him. Reality is, he's right. He has consistently and constantly done hurtful and destructive things. All 17 years. He cheated 6 months into the marriage...when I was pregnant with our daughter. Lastly, he's been getting mad and leaving...and not coming home for 2-3 nights...saying he's up on the mountain and needs to find what he's looking for (I guess meaning he needs to figure out why he's so depressed and maybe possibly trying to deal with his guilt?) He mentions it, I tell him that it hurts myself and our 15 year old daughter. He accuses me of "bringing her into our problems" and I told him that I don't have to say a word (and I DON'T), but that he's her daddy and when he's not home it hurts her. She's told me so. Said she was "frustrated" which means she's hurt and confused and scared. He said "to me, it is normal. why should I be forced to be here when I'm more comfortable there?" Ouch.
I am usually pretty good at interpreting what he's TRYING to say because he never says exactly what he means...maybe he doesn't have the ability?? I cannot translate this...I cannot figure out the between the lines on these three comments he made last night. Any input? I finally told him to stop talking, that he was just doing more damage and it was the ramblings of an over tired, overwhelmed ADHD mind...at 10:30 p.m.
I wanted to add, the "threats
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I wanted to add, the "threats" he's making now are threats to leave me. He isn't threatening and I'm not afraid of him hurting me. He was completely out of control for a while. Now he's basically just dragged around by his emotions...and while I am at work it is worse for him (the coworker no longer works there...didn't even at the time the emails were read)...and he lets them get the best of him and he lashes out by telling me he's leaving me.so,
He also, in the midst of all of these things, said that he was "so scared" (emphasized greatly) of being without me and that he loved me more than he'd ever loved anyone else...it's insane.
SherriW, I was wondering how you are doing
Submitted by Sueann on
Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like things in your life are going well. It really is a hard road being married to someone with ADD. Sending warm thoughts your way.
Sherri,
Submitted by Standing on
When I first located this forum and began reading through so many prior posts, I often followed your threads, because I could relate so strongly. I'm sorry that your struggles continue to be so painful!
I bellieve that my husband has thought many of these things your husband expressed, but he does not often verbalize them. Feels to me that he's stuck in the phase of grieving over the damages his behavior has caused to himself and to his family, and he doesn't currently see hope for change. When he admits that he resents you, he's being honest - that is how his mind works and he is helpless, on his own, to change that perspective. I have often felt that my own marriage has been another exercise on my husband's part in pretending to be "normal". Sadly, what happens is, we become living, breathing evidence of how short he has fallen in that endeavor. What I believe is that this CAN be simply another step on the path toward healing and growth, if he gets professional help. What I have learned through my own counseling is that I can't be my husband's therapist. I can set clear, calm boundaries and offer my hand to him in loving support. A hand. Not my entire body as a stepping stone. My belief is that I am to be a suitable help for him in carrying the extraordinary burdens of this life, but that each of us must carry his or her own "load" or weight.
Sherri, do you think that he may be feeling suicidal? Going up on the mountain may be simple avoidance, but I don't know how depressed he may really be feeling? He's expressed homicidal thoughts before... I think I would ask him. I've asked my husband whether he has ever felt suicidal and I believed his answer - no.
My intuition re: his comment about your bringing your daughter into this may reference the fact that you gave birth to her. I've heard remarks similar to this that have been more about the add time issues, that past/present/blur, all in a whirl, than the current moment. Sounds to me like he's reviewing his life up on that mountain and finding himself at a crossroads with no map. I think it's likely that what's really paining him is that he knows he needs you. My thought is that you need to redefine your own limits for him and show him your map, with the route highlited, so that you're not stuck up there with him, with no safe way to move on. I have so often felt that one of us has to choose to get back on the main road or else be lost indefinitely. Sadly, that generally seems to involve issuing an ultimatum.
And that is all I've got :) Not sure there's anything useful there, but I've followed my own intuition along with guidance I've gotten in counseling and my husband is scheduled for his evaluation, so I am learning to trust myself more and hold that line. I hope that you're making sure to get enough rest and to care for yourself! I wish you the best!
Are you the one who posted a
Submitted by SherriW13 on
Are you the one who posted a big long "just step out of the chaos and breathe!" type post to me a few years ago? I printed it out and carried it with me for a very long time. I am sure it is still in my school books somewhere (I hid it there). I cried harder than I have ever cried in my life. It gave me hope I had not had before and started me on a completely new, better path. I wish I had it to read again. I may go search for it. Maybe it was someone else, but it was life changing.
"Feels to me that he's stuck in the phase of grieving over the damages his behavior has caused to himself and to his family, and he doesn't currently see hope for change"
This had briefly crossed my mind at one point. I wondered if, now that things have gone from Defcon 5 to just the normal everyday ADHD issue and our marriage issues if he isn't doing some self reflection and doesn't see how he can ever forgive himself for the way he reacted to my email and FB. For the record, the FB conversation that he read spanned over the course of a few months and contained NOTHING more than mundane conversations about politics and other co-workers. I forgot to mention that earlier. His reaction was beyond anything I could have ever in my entire life with him imagined he would do. I still cannot believe it. He said in counseling (we went intensively for a few weeks when he started threatening me) that he felt as if his entire world crumbled. He'd cheated, twice that I know of. He had numerous inappropriate friendships with other women that he'd NEVER have tolerated if the shoe had been on the other foot. I think he felt like my loyalty to him was the one thing he could always count on, always count on me to be here waiting when he decided he wanted to spend time with me. I am not saying it was God's plan, for him to read what he did, but I do believe God will/is making something good come from it. Anyway, when I read that sentence I felt like you had some very valuable insight and I was moved to tears. i do not understand why he continuously threatens to leave me. I've nothing short of begged him to stop doing it because it just convinces me more and more each time that it is what his heart really wants and he just doesn't have the guts to tell me when I'm not here. He says it is just that he's hurt and scared that I'm at work and he lashes out because that's all he's ever known how to do is hurt the person he feels is hurting him. I think it spoke volumes also when he said that he had never been nice to me, not really, during our entire marriage...adding that he felt horrible about it.
I think his "comfort" from being on the mountain is basically where he can go, drink as much as he wants, without judgment and disappointed eyes being on him. I also think it is his "go to" reaction to run.."flight" has always been his way of not dealing with things. The last time he went, I reacted poorly the first 24 hours or so, did the usual passive aggressive BS, made threats of divorce, etc. Then I just went silent. I am sure he expected to turn his phone on in the morning and have a barrage of texts. Nothing. He couldn't come home fast enough. I didn't do it for that reason, I did it for my own sanity. I prayed and found some peace about it and decided to just disengage and leave him to deal with his own shit. I do not think he is suicidal. I think he feels absolutely horrible about himself and all he has done. I think he knows that I would just assume he leave today as to have to endure another second of the dysfunction and horrible treatment...and mental abuse he inflicts every time he lets the devil get into his head and drag him around by his throat. He knows that real change is coming, one way or the other. I guess this might be my "map" you speak of? I have no definite plan, but I tell him over and over that I just want us to both be happy and kind to each other and that I'd rather be alone than to be hurt by the one who vowed before God to love and cherish me. I try to remain a calm, constant because I know anything else would bring even more destruction and pain for us both.
If I tell him anything our daughter says about him, he accuses me of bringing her into our problems. She's 15. She's no stranger to our issues. Many months ago I promised myself I would not talk about her father in front of or to her anymore. I told her that I was trying something new, that I was going to discuss things with God and let God work with her dad and we were just going to enjoy our lives in the meantime. It was hard for her, she's actually gotten mad at me for it a time or two, but it is what is best for her. However, she still sees that he's been gone for 3 nights one month and a few weeks later for 2 more nights. She tells me all the time how he is "always" in a bad mood. She loves him dearly, but she is his toughest critic. He has no idea how acutely aware of everything he does and says she is. I repeatedly tell him that I do NOT drag her into it, she makes statements and observations 100% on her own and based on what she sees and experiences.
Deep down, probably stupidly, I just keep hoping and praying that he will someday forgive himself and see that I am here waiting for us to start clean and move forward...wiser and grateful. Sometimes I feel like a lot of his behavior stems from feeling completely unlovable. More often, I feel like he resents me on a level that would scare the hell out of me if I could see the truth...and that he really just cannot stand being married to me anymore but because of guilt he won't leave. He's said this more than a time or two..but always swears he only said it to hurt me afterwards. A person can only hear it so many times before they really start to believe there is truth in his words. In his angry words. Should we believe that ADHDers are the only people who truly say things out of anger and really don't mean them...because standard belief for the rest of us is that what we say when we are angry is a reflection of how we truly feel. He's also typically drunk when he says these things...so drunk and angry words that he really doesn't mean? Very hard pill for me to swallow...even if it IS all he's ever known. If you even THINK it, there has to be some truth in it somewhere.
Thanks for the reply. I missed this support.
Sherri, I’ve only been on
Submitted by Standing on
Sherri, I’ve only been on the forum since June, but the approach of stepping out of the chaos and just Breathing – well, that says it all. Going for counseling and confronting my own issues has been my way of stepping outside of my husband’s chaos. I’ve been married several times and never taken the necessary time to recover from the traumas, so I’ve spent most of my adult life in survival mode. I still have a long way to go in dealing with my own mess.
I also believe that God is making something good to come from all of this, whether or not I can see visible proof of that work before my eyes. The only way I can handle the situation is to see through the eyes of my heart, otherwise I would disintegrate.
We recently had a milder version of the rage episodes you’ve described. There were no death threats, but I had never witnessed such extremes from my husband. I believe it’s just as you’ve said:
“I think he felt like my loyalty to him was the one thing he could always count on, always count on me to be here waiting when he decided he wanted to spend time with me.”
In our case, he was reacting to the perceived threat that I was abandoning his business, which is his version of a One, True Love. Different circumstances, same effect. He flipped out.
What may be happening in your husband’s add-mind is that he is obsessing, in that uniquely add way, over the notion that you can/will be out there in the world connecting with other men.
“He says it is just that he's hurt and scared that I'm at work” …. That does not sound to me like the secret desire of his heart is to escape from you. Sounds more like – every time you’re away at work, his mind starts regurgitating the terror he felt at finding your fb posts, etc. My husband has told me in the past that this is how his mind works. He has said that he’s often been able to recognize the pattern and rebuke the thoughts. (Those were the days when he was much more connected spiritually.)
When your husband read your communications to someone else, I bet it was like reading a foreign language. It’s like when my husband hears me communicating with one of my kids, or with someone at work… he recognizes that there is a genuine connection occurring before his eyes, but he has no clue how to engage or to be part of it. It’s alien. It makes him feel alien. Makes him feel like he’s outside the walls, peeking in. I can see that in his eyes! (Hence my past wonderings about Aspergers.)
Being calm and constant is like a balm to add. That’s what I am seeing here at home. Your husband’s reaction to the absence of frantic texts from you says it all. Without you playing the role of antagonist in his personal drama, he is left to deal with his own obsessive thoughts. There’s no bad guy here except add. That, I think, is what our husbands need for our behavior to show them. It is so very difficult. It’s like the passage about our battle not being against flesh and blood... (and I am not talking about possession J )
I’m not sure that it will ever be of benefit to share with him about your daughter’s view and experience. I think the best we can do for our children is to help educate them about how to deal with difficult people. The only other person in our lives here who has been able to have an impact is a man whom my husband respects, values, and needs. When this guy speaks, he takes note. He has also told me that this guy has a way of taking issue with him, while still expressing the good things and not devaluing him. I am learning a lot from this guy J
Sherri, I believe that the thing your husband can’t stand … is not your marriage, it’s himself. Your being constant and calm, disengaging from the battle, is the first step, I think. Now someone else has to come in and shine the light on the path. A counselor? I finally had to say, with that “guy” I told you about as a witness, that our counselor had suggested legal separation. That’s what it took to get him to schedule a complete evaluation. I don’t know what it may take for you, but I do believe there is great hope!!!
Hugs, again.
God forgive me, but I've
Submitted by SherriW13 on
God forgive me, but I've spent so much time in counseling over the years..so many countless hours and thousands of dollars..I really have no desire to go ever again. HE needs to go, he has a counselor that kind of helps him like a coach would. He really likes her. I am going to have to insist he start seeing her again.
I am the same, if I don't focus on something other than what is right before my eyes, I wouldn't make it. I also agree 100% that the enemy here is the devil. I have asked my husband to do 30 days studies with me, to spend 20 minutes a day in God's word with me, to go to church with me again. He did go a few Sundays ago and it was a very emotional day for me..it was a miracle. I'm hopeful he'll go again soon. When we were in church, things were so much better. The devil is the enemy, and he lets him in his mind and then lashes out at me. I let him in my head, but I recognize it and deal with him on my own.
Maybe his deepest darkest fear is losing me. Maybe that's why he's so overwhelmed with emotion that he cannot stop himself from doing whatever he can to make sure I am sorry for even considering leaving him here alone. When he found the emails, all rational thought went so far out the window I didn't know if we'd ever get it back...and we still haven't gotten it back fully. He had proof that nothing had happened, that I had worked through it, felt guilty and said I would never have let anything happen...but it didn't matter. Even his beloved counselor told him, when he was insisting she read the emails, in an attempt to shame and humiliate me, that all she was was a woman who felt bad and was simply struggling to save her marriage...and told him he could take that to the bank. Made no difference. Once they get something in their head, it is true and God help those who they feel caused that pain. He would be fine one minute and then be insisting I was lying to him that nothing happened and he insisted I tell him the "truth". That happened over and over again and it was usually when the threats would come. He HAD the truth in black and white. Didn't matter. God it was insane. What he "saw" when he read my emails was, as I said, all of the proof he needed that his neglect and inattention had finally mounted up and that he would be forced to deal with his shit or lose me. I think he truly thought he'd skate through life thinking he could do as he pleased, say what he wanted, and suffer no consequence. I think once the dust settled, he really panicked.
I agree. I think he hates himself and what he's done..for 17 years, according to his ramblings. I'm all about a clean slate and just moving forward. If he didn't learn from his last affair, if he didn't learn from the hell we went through last year, then he will never learn and things won't change..but I'm willing to bet they would be better. He will have to forgive himself first. I only hope we can survive in the meantime. No matter what the reason or motivation, I cannot continue to live with the dark days and the stress and the lack of peace. I NEED peace and will do whatever it takes to have it. No more excuses.
Thanks for your input. I need to find that post that I mentioned...I know the username started with an S. I think it did anyway. It was SO good.
I understand all that you've written and I think you're right,is
Submitted by Standing on
Sherri. I'm not sure whether my husband truly feels as bad as all that about what he's put me through. At one point, he actually said, "I know I'm not the worst you've had."
And he was right. My kids and I have suffered worse damage, due to my poor choices in mates.
During my first marriage, to the father of my children, I thoroughly melded to him, absolutely codependent, pretending like everything was okay, but complaining constantly to a couple of close friends. I outgrew that, through a second marriage to a slimy narcissist,who forced me to step up and draw a line in the sand. And now, ever hopeful, here I am with a new kind of dysfunction. And it all began in my home, growing up. So it is most true of all that I have had plenty of my own mess to work through, with still more work to do.
My husband has a very short memory for grievances these days. Maybe that's because he is so completely occupied with his business venture. I do recall the seasons of unemployment, limited to months (not years), during which he'd lapse into depression and escape into computer games. But even then... if I was willing to pretend like all was well, he was able to put on a decent show. His past obnoxious attempts to control and bully my son was occurring during that time, though, so I guess that was his outlet for all of the frustration and guilt. Still, it is difficult for me to imagine him hanging onto a negative spin, in the way your husband seems to be doing. Makes me wonder whether there's a stronger obsessive component with him... or maybe it's a deeper form of depression. It surely sounds like he could benefit from medication! Maybe the coach could steer him in that direction so that he'd be able to let loose of some of those imaginations that are troubling him so?
This has been an odd day here. I was tending to my own part of the usual business chores, while watching my husband get tangled in one of those typical messes that come about as a result of impulsive, careless decision making combined with lack of appropriate folloiw-through. It was quite an embarrassing error and I was in the same room as he struggled through the aftermath on the phone with a client. He just kept plodding through it, never apologizing for the mistake, and I felt so bad for him. Then I felt guilty, for not having foreseen this error and prevented it. Then I remembered how nasty he had been during the time when the mistake first began, responding to any of my questions or concerns with, "I know what I'm doing!" And now I don't know what I feel about it, other than exhausted. It was like viewing my 10 years with him in one snapshot, and just wanting to feed that photo through the shredder. I used to say something like - live and learn, now let's work out a plan so that this doesn't happen again... yeah, right.
Anyway, I feel like - in my newfound spirit of openness and non-avoidance - I should say something about it to him, so I will pray on it and possibly just offer him - "do you want to talk about what happened today? I'm here, if you do." Will let you know how that goes.
I am not sure why he’s
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I am not sure why he’s focused on the past 17 years right now, why he mentioned it, but I think mostly he’s struggling to deal with the aftermath of his horrific behaviors in the months following him reading my emails. He was nothing short of a monster. I still cannot believe how he reacted. He was emotionally abusive and physically threatening for months. He was, simply put, out to destroy me for hurting him. He threatened my job, he threatened my life…it was so, so BAD. I think even HE is shocked at how horribly he acted and he is having a very hard time getting past it. Once the dust settled, he had no choice but to deal with how he treated me and he’s not doing so well. He has also completely shunned my entire family (with whom I am VERY close) and I believe this is mostly out of shame for how he treated me. It is his ‘go to’ behavior…run away from/ignore anyone who might think poorly of you for something you did instead of saying “I’m sorry” and meaning it. He has no problem getting past the less hurtful behaviors because he can rationalize them away in his own mind...but not this.
I am not sure how I would advise you on the issue he faced on the phone. I used to give my husband a lot of “advice” on how to handle his boss, coworkers, etc. All it ever got me was a “I can’t talk to you about anything without you trying to tell me what to do” or him seeing my advice as an insult to his intelligence. So I stopped. I probably wouldn’t mention it. Think about it, if he wants to discuss it with you, he will. Who knows what kind of negative spin he will put on it if you try and bring it up..probably will sense an “I told you so” coming and be defensive. Just how it would probably go down here.
Also...
Submitted by SherriW13 on
He is on meds...but he drinks everyday..too much most days. He may as well not be on meds. Drinking has the exact opposite affect as the ADHD meds to. He works, takes his meds at work, but comes home and starts drinking. 99% of his hurtful, impulsive, selfish behaviors happen after 5 p.m. He takes 3 pills a day, and says he takes his last one around 4 p.m. but I don't know for sure. If he told his psychiatrist he was drinking, he would stop giving him the ADHD meds. He may benefit from them while at work, but that's about it.
I just re-read your initial post on this thread
Submitted by Standing on
and let the bigger picture settle in. Life for me here has been very similar, but on a much smaller scale... a much less severe version.
For about 6 weeks, I was aware that my husband was drinking at night-time, but I raised a ruckus about it and he stopped (I think). Supposedly, it was to help him sleep, but I think he even recognized that his attitudes were considerably more vicious when he was using alcohol. I don't know what he's using now, but he's been much, much more spacey than usual lately and sleeping alot more, so maybe xanax again. It's always something.
What you wrote about trying to discuss with him his embarassing phone call = spot on. I didn't bring up the subject, because I foresaw a similar outcome. Once I'd thought it over, realized that I would be attempting this for the sake of enhancing our emotional bond. And then I came to my senses.
In order for there to be a reasonable emotional construct with which to bond, he would have to build an inner core, based on some serious, honest, effort-full, non-instantly-gratifying WORK. I don't know whether he will find that feasible.
On Edit: I meant to quote you here:
"It is his ‘go to’ behavior…run away from/ignore anyone who might think poorly of you for something you did instead of saying “I’m sorry” and meaning it. He has no problem getting past the less hurtful behaviors because he can rationalize them away in his own mind...but not this."
All I can say is, Yes, Yes, and Yes. Same m.o. here. I guess it's because he does not see how he can ever live up to our expectations, but if that all or nothing thinking could just let loose for a minute, maybe he could at least ... try?!
My husband said it was to
Submitted by SherriW13 on
My husband said it was to help him sleep too. Be careful. When he "quit", he was just hiding it from me. In addition to his beer, he also has been caught with airplane bottles of whiskey. One fell out of his pocket a few weeks ago as we are sitting on the bed. Oops. My husband has benzos prescribed to him but they make him a cold, uncaring asshat. I hate when he takes them. They are prescribed for sleep too. It blows my mind that if sleep is such an issue for them, why not address THAT issue and make wiser choices than to self medicate. Why? Because it is an excuse.
I read a while back a good article on how ADHDers, who are untreated, learn to recognize any release of adrenaline as a negative (from chaotic childhoods and not being taught appropriate coping skills) and that is why they are "flight" instead of "fight" kind of people. This holds so true for my husband. His father would leave and stay gone for WEEKS. It is what he was taught. I've often told him how much I hate that he won't "fight" for us..he just wants everything to be forgotten..or he wants to just run away and leave.
the options
Submitted by Standing on
It really is utterly
Submitted by SherriW13 on
It really is utterly discouraging and disheartening to see how truly different their perception is from reality. Our reality anyway. It makes me lose all hope.
I'm sorry, Sherri.
Submitted by Standing on
I can feel that it has been very difficult for you to return here, after all that you've been through, and to read such stuff. Often, I read and feel that I'm absorbing it into myself, making matters worse. I question whether I should just stop reading and posting, but then I'm afraid that I may disappear altogether. There is no one else in my life who knows the entire story. Well, God and my kids do. The manager at work has seen plenty firsthand, but then he immerses himself into the next task at hand... something over which he can have an actual impact. Through watching him, I've recognized my own m.o. in this. I tend to get busy and tune it out. But the manager can go home at night to normalcy.
My husband is giving me space, best that he is able, I think; but it's not enough. I am too tired. Over the years, he has had extended lay-offs and a 6 month period of unemployment, before he started this business. I have had no such breaks. Just observing. I am physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausted. I'm sure that, in his own way, so is he; but I cannot relate to him, since I see him so very often doing a whole lot of nothing!
I need to step back, for my own sake. With no commentary on anything to do with him, based on the facts about myself as I know them, I am stepping away from being a full time fixer at his business, just as I have done at home. It is time for me to do a whole lot more of nothing. Nothing but breathe.
Hi, Sherri. I remember you,
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Hi, Sherri. I remember you, too. My interpretation of your husband's comment about your daughter is based on my experience with my husband, who seems to operate on the assumption that if people don't talk about a problem or an issue, the problem or issue doesn't exist. So, if your daughter doesn't say things to your husband about what he's doing or not doing, everything's fine ... in his mind. Now, I don't know if my husband or your husband really thinks everything is fine, but they seem to be very good at maintaining a wall of denial until someone (me or you) attempts to pierce that wall. Also, I think there's the shooting-the-messenger aspect of this situation.
I remember you too..
Submitted by SherriW13 on
Yes, if we don't talk about it, it doesn't exist. He's promised me three times in the past two months that we'd sit down and talk...originally it was his offer. I've told him I need answers and have many questions about lies he's gotten caught in, things that he's just blatantly done in front of me without any remorse (not coming home one night and refusing to tell me where he was...claiming he was afraid I'd cause a scene..which is so out of character for me it isn't even funny), and he 'pretends' to be falling apart, having a horrible day, etc to get out of having these talks all three times now...because if we don't talk about it, then it didn't happen and he doesn't have to deal with it.
He is much happier when I pretend that nothing is wrong NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES. I'm at a point where I am incapable of doing that. I won't.
How are you doing?
Sherri
Submitted by Standing on
I'm at work, so can't say much, but wanted to ask whether you've seen New Life TV? It's an internet tv channel by New Life ministry.
I think they're currently doing a 2 week period during which anyone can go view the programs. There's one by Dr. Henry Cloud about borderline personality... and many others that I think you may find so helpful! You can search for the topics or titles you want to see. I hope that you can check it out! I am learning so much there. Hugs to you!!! I will try to get back to this later.
I will check it out. I spend
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I will check it out. I spend a lot of my spare time reading/listening to Joyce Meyer, Iyanla Vansant, Focus on the Family, etc. I NEED to feed my soul or I would go insane. The more I know about God's love and God's plan for me, the better I feel. The more I understand about ADHD (I know WAY more than I wish I did) the easier it is not to hate the person, but the adhd instead.
He told me again tonight he
Submitted by SherriW13 on
He told me again tonight he was leaving. He asked when the bankruptcy we are paying ends and said he doesn't want to work where he works anymore...that'll be five jobs in five years. When I asked whyhe wanted to know he said he was leaving. I am so completely over being told this every other week..he actually went about three weeks without saying it this time. It has to be true..he wants out. It HAS to be how he truly feels..even if tomorrow he will swear he didn't mean it. I'm so done feeling this way.
I don't know
Submitted by Standing on
I don't think it is necessarily what he longs for...
May be that he doesn't feel he has any other option.
The repetitive-ness of his claims makes me think that he does not realize at all how many times he has expressed this. Often, I don't think my husband even realizes that he has said something aloud.
I Took a screen shot of each
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I Took a screen shot of each time he did it in one month and when he said it for the sixth time in one month I sent them all to him. The only reason he made it three weeks is probably because I did that and showed him how frequent it is. He was up to about once every 4-5 days.
I literally go, minute by minute, from feeling I don't believe him and know he is just full of it and only says it to hurt me..to feeling overwhelmed by the possibility that maybe, just maybe the one thing that bound us together and got us through all of those years...love...is gone. Today I am just numb. I haven't rescued him when he tried to get me to (he texted me asking to please talk to him this morning..and I had just worked all night and told him I was going to sleep...I KNEW he needed me to rescue him and give him the cue that I wasn't holding him accountable for his words). I also haven't contacted him looking for rescue from my own pain. My gut tells me he won't come home.
Of course, I was at work when he told me this...as always. He resents me working...he hates that I am working where my heart once flirted with the idea of someone else..he hates that his income doesn't support us and requires I work. I guess that's why it always happens then..and only then
I recently heard a radio program
Submitted by Standing on
A caller questioned the Christian counselors about his wife, who repeatedly swings back and forth between staying and leaving the marriage, blaming him and rampaging with emotional taunts, whenever she feels the fear of abandonment. The "experts" advised the man to enforce loving boundaries, simply stating calmly and clearly, "I love you and I don't want you to go, but that is your choice to make and I will accept your decision." Much easier said than done, but I can see the benefit.
I know exactly what you mean about him wanting you to give him the cue that you're not holding him accountable. It is the same here!! I will get sulky silence all evening and then, in the morning, "Good morning, Sweetie" via text. I have diligently practiced not taking any of it to heart. Slowly, but surely, sense is conquering nonsense... at least, for me, it is.
I'm sorry to know what you must endure tonight, with the wondering and waiting. I really hope that you can cast your cares and make a place of peace in your heart. Hugs!
I have told him repeatedly,
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I have told him repeatedly, in a very clear, short, and uncluttered way that if leaving is what he wants, I will not fight him or be angry about it. I have given him every out...I've told him I would work more, take care of the kids, I would see to it that he got as much money as I could possibly manage and keep things going until our bankruptcy is over. (probably another year). I have done everything I know how to do to give him the "OK" to just go.
I am leaving the ball in his court. It is hard to be here, be a wife, be loving and affectionate when he's threatening to leave me every other effin week. I tried the "let common sense over rule the nonsense" approach, but I am human and I can only take so much before I am completely convinced that he does not want to be here and that he just doesn't have the courage to leave. WHY does it keep happening? It has not always been this way...it just started about 6 months ago...around the same time that his behaviors started leading me to believe he's cheating. There is just so much that I would have to accept and let go of if I do, indeed, leave the ball in his court. If my leaving didn't mean that I'd have to move 1000 miles away to TX (I have no other options) then I would leave. I'm tired of feeling like my mere existence makes him miserable. I deserve better.
He didn't come home last night. I didn't text or call him at all. It was hard, but I have learned my lesson about that. I won't engage. He came home at about 8 and crawled in bed and turned the TV on. I guess he called in sick or something. It is the second Friday in a row he's missed. I don't even know how to begin to open up the lines of communication. Right now it's just silence. I hate the silence but I can't let him off of the hook. I honestly feel that his not coming home last night, after the conversation we had the last time it happened, was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm done. I have nothing more to give. He's made his choices, he knows our marriage is heading 100mph towards the abyss, and he made a choice that he knows is hurtful and destructive to what little bit is left of our marriage. I've made it clear what the consequences are and now I have no choice but to stand by my word...otherwise I have no business being angry at him for doing something that crosses a boundary I have set for myself.
That's how I see it, too.
Submitted by Standing on
If we do not respect, honor, and validate our boundaries, who will?
I've reviewed some of mine, overhauled them, relaxed a few... but not coming home at night is not one I would find flexible.
One More Thought
Submitted by kellyj on
Along the same lines as my earlier post about victims. A few tips for you to think about.....Victims fundamentally cannot take responsibility for anything...period. They make everyone else responsible for what they should be themselves. This is part of that thinking I was trying to explain. What they do best is manipulating other people intentionally or not....by making you feel guilty, using your weaknesses against you ( they're very good at spotting them in other but not themselves ) making wild baseless accusations ( usually of something that they did themselves )....anything to try and get you to do something or feel some kind of obligation to them. It's all about them and their misery not yours. Your problems are not their problems....your problems get in the way from focusing on them.
It's all about getting you to do something and usually it's about attention in some way. It's a one way street and it only goes towards them.
You need to apply this to everything he does and see if this fits.
Also....he may not be having an affair as he says. Your last comment about staying out all night and calling in sick....I'd say he's drinking or self medicating in some other way. His wildly swinging emotions could be because of drugs that he's done a really good job of hiding from you. Has he been known to take pain meds (opiates?) If he has in the past I'd be suspicious. Opiate addiction is all about relieving pain not partying. The increase in alcohol consumption might indicate taking other drugs as well. I've seen this. Opiate addicts only feel OK when they have drugs and spend lots of time sourcing them and money on them. Lots of unexplained absences of time and they are very, very protective of keeping it a secret. When they have drugs they drink more and this is when they feel sorry for themselves.....when they don't they are nasty and very moody and volatile. Meth has similar behaviors including staying up for long periods of time and then crashing (sleeping a lot)
I just wanted to throw this out because it is not unheard of that other people including spouses don't know since they (by design) hide it. the alcohol can mask the drugs so people think it's the alcohol .
He going somewhere and doing something and this could be one reason for it.
One more thing......if you don't react or "play ball" with victims they have no power because this is what it's all about anyway....to get you to do something. You said "I am leaving the ball in his court". I'd leave the court completely and not return and then see what happens. I guarantee he will do something even if you don't. This might prove very telling to see what this is but you won't know until you stop playing his game.
J
Reads easy, works hard
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I can identity, very much, with what you have said.
Explains why my spouse broke into sobs and started to rant about how he had not even mourned his parents death yet; all this while we were in a counseling session. I wanted to address 2 major issues. And, those 2 issues were never even touched. His parents, by the way, died in 2001 and 2003. Believe me, he is very good at doing this. Even the counselor had empathy for him, and wanted to give him a hug. So you see, I have a very difficult time dealing with his victim mentality. It is a pattern of behavior I have basically learned to ignore. Seemed pretty harsh to the counselor. It is very tough to stand firm when someone who is trying to help you is just not seeing the whole picture.
Wow. I have always called this phenomena in my marriage the "Poor Joe" (not his real name) ending. I cannot share my frustrations about our finances because HE is 'trying so hard and nothing seems to work." Or it is a holiday, or he is tired, or I picked a day to dig at something when he doesn't feel well.
I have applied my own interpretation of the "don't react or don't play ball" scenario. When he tries to engage in an argument with a verbal tug-o-war, I just drop my end of the argument and walk away.
I really need to figure out how to apply these ideals and separate our finances. He has no reasonability regarding them as I need to pay our household bills, so "it seems" the only way to get the funds is to make sure I handle the bookkeeping for his construction business.
I am in college. I am trying to figure out how to get employment so I can support myself if the need arises. I am not stuck, per se, I just don;t know how to drop the ball and walk off the court. Won't our financial status quo collapse?
Yep, victim mentality. He got into a big job with a financial backer - who cleverly avoided putting the agreements in writing. So after a few weeks I backed out. Then in a few more weeks, our son backed out. But my spouse was going to MAKE THAT GUY pay him. My spouse worked all last summer,,, for basically nothing - - because of course that man did not pay him what my spouse demanded. He paid EXACTLY what he said he was going to pay. He bought a repo. He bought the material. He sold the house, subtracted the purchase price and the material costs, and split the profit with my spouse. My spouse had spent HOURS doing premo work. He was not getting paid by the hour. He feels gypped. Sadly, I have no empathy for him. We tried and tried to get him to cut his losses and get out. Nope. Even the partner told him he was putting too many hours into a flip house. Now my spouse bad-mouths that man every chance he can. What a shame. Even our lawyer pointed out how my spouse made poor judgment calls on that one. And guess what? My spouse now doesn't use that lawyer because he took the other guys side.
I'd love to know some steps to get out of focusing on our financial disaster. I had part in it, yes, by not putting my foot down. However, it seems to have taken on a life if its own, and I literally do not know how to escape it.
Victim mentality
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
A few years ago, my father-in-law, then in his early 80s (he's now 88), referred to himself as an orphan.
Hmmm
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Rosered,
My husband has often said, "Now that both my parents are gone, I am an orphan."
Maybe a legal separation?
Submitted by Standing on
Once everything is divided, you would be able to restructure whatever portion of the debt may be assigned to you and get the amount reduced?
Just a thought. I know it stinks getting stuck with debt, but at least then it would be more manageable and you would not have someone else piling onto it.
Maybe it has nothing to do
Submitted by SherriW13 on
Maybe it has nothing to do with ADHD, maybe it has everything to do with it...but my husband did fairly well in life, not perfect, but not drinking and other means of self-medication up until his mother died. He did OK after his dad died, but not his mom. He hasn't been the same since. She died 9 months after he lost his 6 figure job and had to take a job making half of what he had been making. It all came at the same time, but I know he hasn't dealt with her death. I have heard and read that a common issue with ADHDers is that they have a non-existent sense of time..no timeline, so to speak. I am not sure if it is lack of coping skills or lack of ability to deal with emotions or what...but I know that his mom's death drastically changed my husband...forever, I am afraid. My father, who was like a father figure to my husband, died a month later...and he was too busy having an affair (we were separated) to even go to see my daddy before he died. I know he has a lot of guilt too. This is why I think counseling would be so helpful...but he says hes going but never does. There really may be some validity in how much your husband is 'feeling' the loss of his parents, still.
Thank you. Your post made me
Submitted by SherriW13 on
Thank you. Your post made me cry. This is one of the main reasons I come here...and came back after being gone so long.
He not only uses my weaknesses against me, if I ever dare admit I did something wrong it will use that against me as well. It is NO secret that I used to try to control him, nagged, fussed about every dime he spent, gave him the cold shoulder (knowing he hated it) just to get my way, etc. Recently I made the colossal mistake of sending him an "early anniversary present" in the form of an email that was an apology for all I had done to bring us to where we are. I apologized for all of the above, admitted to using the cold shoulder to manipulate him, admitted to fussing and fighting to get my way. I mean we'd spent YEARS in counseling over all of it but when I sent the email, instead of saying thank you and seeming grateful...he told me it was MEAN and then went off on a tangent (texts...while I was AT WORK of course) saying he could not believe me, how dare I make him feel so crazy all of those years, and he was not going to make the mistake of hanging around and letting me do that to him again. I was STUNNED. And hurt. Once, I told him something I found out about his daughter (my SD)...and later apologized to him, admitting I only told him to make him angry at her. He threw that in my face for YEARS. I didn't have to admit it, didn't have to apologize. But I did and he used it against me as if I were a monster. To clarify, I haven't nagged or controlled or manipulated my husband with silence or attitude in a very, very long time. He is a professional at knowing what hurts me and saying and doing each and every single thing he can when he's angry/hurt. He fully admits it.
He focused on my problems like they were HUGE and his as if they shouldn't matter all that much. I went back on anti-depressants because he felt like me stopping them years ago was a big part of why I was so difficult and angry. I went on them because he nearly drove me over the edge of sanity when he read my e-mails and went off the deep end and set out to, seemingly, destroy me.
I think if it were opiates again, he'd do that here and not need to stay out all night. If I had to guess I'd say it's pot. He had never smoked pot in the 17 years I've known him, he knows I would NEVER risk losing my kids or my job and NEVER allow it in my house. Without going into details, I have reason to believe (if it is drugs..and I've considered that possibility too) I would have to lean towards that..and there is no way he could smoke it here without me knowing. Our home is too small. If he went outside I'd immediately be suspicious. I tend to feel it is another human being (cheating)...I lean that way more because of some incessant texting he has been doing for a few months...about the time his behavior took a turn for the worst. He even received a picture one night as we are sitting on the bed..it was an innocent enough looking picture of a woman standing on the street somewhere...but when I asked who the person was he denied like hell that he had even gotten a picture and I was sitting RIGHT THERE and saw it with my own eyes. I have been completely up front about how suspicious I am about the texts...and I even asked him "could I be married to such a POS person that would sit beside of me in our bed and be texting another woman?" and his response was "I AM a POS" but not admitting his texts were to a female, but just saying in general. The next morning he made some story up about how it was a group of professors at the university he works at and how they were in Montreal and sent that pic to everyone in the group..but who the hell has a group over texts? I KNOW he's lying about who the texts are to and he does it still yet, even after I've told him repeatedly that I don't trust him, don't believe him, and how damaging it is when he does it. It started out of nowhere. I've even caught him picking up the phone as soon as I walk out of the room..so he's just being more sneaky about it. This pisses me off because I've begged him to tell me the truth, told him if he was and wanted to go be with this other person that I wouldn't stop him, and basically rolled out the red carpet...and if he is, it puts MY LIFE and my HEALTH at risk. Also, our sex life has become almost non-existent and he's had 'issues' in the bedroom as well. So many small circumstantial things that concern me. Could be drugs. Either way, it is SOMETHING and I know it will be very hurtful when I find out. I think his threats to leave so often also have to do with him wanting to avoid me finding this out...or him ever having to tell me.
I am trying very hard to leave the court..at this very moment I am trying to do that. Normally, when he leaves and I feel he won't come home at all...I try to contact him and basically beg him to come home...not to cause more damage, etc. I didn't text or call him at all last night. Typically, when he stays out there is constant texts and then he'll ask me "can I come home" the next morning..as if he wants me to excuse his behavior. He didn't ask this morning..he just came home..but he left again this evening. I don't expect to see him for a few days...at least for the weekend. Would you consider me not contacting him "leaving the court"? I am not sure how to leave the court and occupy the same space as him. I don't want to fight, I want to be civil (I want to be loving and feel loved, truthfully), but I don't want him to mistake my kindness for weakness and my civility for acceptance.
Start By Protecting Yourself
Submitted by kellyj on
I've made a lot of statements and comments here on this forum that are based on my own experiences which can easily get misinterpreted or misapplied when giving advise from it to someone else so I've tried to paint a picture or profile rather than tell others what to do. I give you some more specific examples of my experiences to illustrate the kinds of things I'm talking about. It is so hard not to offer other people advise when I recall my own personal experiences and the mistakes I made back then when I see it (in text here in this forum ) happening again vicariously in front of my own eyes...... but I am only going off a description that resonates with me and might not have enough information to really give definitive advise to someone else. I guess that's some what of a disclaimer before I start giving advise. lol My goal in doing this is not to give advise specific to someone else but to give them " the ability to see" so to speak.
So exhausted has referred to "mourning" when referring to this ability to see as it does come with a price. I can relate to an earlier comment she made when she said something like "mourning" the life she believed she had now because she realizes that it didn't exist in the first place. I know this feeling exactly and I'm still processing through what I used to believe compared to now every time I have a memory and then immediately go " wait....this memory is not real...shit! there goes another one." What do I have to replace this real life experience ? Now I have to go back in time and recalculate it so to speak by throwing reality into the equation. It hurts sometimes and you do grieve from it. The good news is that the benefits far far out way the costs of going through this process because in the end you shed yourself of living day to day with so much emotional pain that comes from the confusion, contradiction and disappointment that living in delusion causes. It feels like waking up from a bad dream.....for a short while you still feel it even after you are awake but once you realize it was just a dream you forget about permanently and it never bothers you again.
( Delusion defined: "strong convictions contrary to invalidating facts of evidence." )
Be prepared to see things that may not make you feel all that great .....and be prepared to let go of some things that you might think that are real when you come to find that they aren't which also won't make you feel that great in the short term....... but it really is much, much better for the future than the alternative I guarantee it! Like so exhausted said..."as time passes." ( well done so exhausted! good for you! )
Soooo....having said all of this here's some examples. Forgive me if I'm a little blunt and self righteous but I have to see things rather black and white for me to do this for myself. I realize that people aren't exactly like this but it helps me make these kinds of differentiation as I have trouble seeing the world like this. I tend to be way too gullible and trusting by nature...it's an ADHD thing ha ha
I remember sitting next to my father on his death bed having a moment for just the two of us. It was the most golden opportunity for him to make amends and that "movie scene" moment....you know when everything gets resolved with the person's last dying breath? Even then right up to the last he still had to play the victim and manipulate and take advantage of the situation.....it couldn't be more perfect for a victim...are you kidding! I was in my mid 20's and the things he said then haunted me for years until I finally woke up and saw it for what it was. He did the "poor me" and then downloaded the pain of his life onto me making it about me to certain extent....in other words deferring his own responsibility for his life onto me. That is an example of just how futile your attempts can be in trying to get someone like this to change.
You can't take these things personally because it is what they do.
And what they do is anything but take responsibility or see themselves within it which include: lying and making things up to fit the moment. Picture a con artist.
You cannot trust or believe "Anything" they ( a victim) says because they always have an angle that will benefit them somehow that they aren't sharing with you...of course! It's all about hiding and they are always hiding something.
Personally Sherri....I wouldn't believe anything your husband says or explanations to his behaviors. I would start from there. The chances that he is lying are 90% .....you can't afford to believe it on the 10% chance that its true. That will drive you crazy so it's easier to discount everything.
They project what they can't stand about themselves onto you...which means blaming you for there own faults by telling you that you are this way. This can really get confusing if you aren't paying attention because they also do a very good job of convincing you that they are right. Anytime you bring up a fault or failing of theirs it will come back at you one way or another. That's when you start feeling guilty and badly about yourself. Once you notice this happening I'd immediately stop him anytime he tries to do this....."sorry...I'm not doing this. I know what you are doing and I don't like it. I won't play this game with you"....and then walk away. That's what I mean by leaving the court.
It's like talking to a child saying " I don't like playing with you because you don't play fair" and then turning your back.
What your doing is calling them out and exposing them letting them know that you don't believe them and then saying that I don't want to hear you or be around you if you keep doing this. The important part to this is that you don't do the same thing he is doing.....to manipulate or try to get him to do something for you or that you want. That's playing his game and he will keep trying to get you back in the sand box. It would be the same as letting you children dictate what you do...like no! It doesn't matter that you don't like it...your not doing it.
The key is that you can't want or need anything from him....that's his power and his source for ammo...your weaknesses. If you need ANYTHING from him then he has control. Take away any need on your part and he cannot manipulate you. Again...this is leaving the court...it's not a recipe for a healthy marriage but....you are setting a boundary simply by saying ":if you want to talk to me or be around me me you cannot do these things because it hurts me. Period! I shouldn't feel bad for feeling bad when you do this and I don't owe you any explanation or need to apologize for who I am or how I feel. These are my emotions and I am entitled to mine the same as you."
You have the right not to play. " If you want to play right then I will play with you but not until then. I don't believe you, don't trust what you are telling me and know exactly what you are doing and I don't like it when you act this way"
And then leave it...walk away but do not engage. Engaging is not leaving the court.
You also need to respond to him if he follows through with your request with same consistency to your words or follow through with any ultimatums you make or this becomes useless....like his idle threats....that's playing his game.
It's not easy to do this but you need to protect yourself this way from the insanity of living in someone else's delusion which does require you not to have any of your own first....also not so easy.
I can add more later if this helps.
J
The path to recovery
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Hello J,
I enjoy your posts. I see you accomplishing just what you have desired. Information from someone who has walked the walk. Not shoved down anyone's throat. Not insisting anyone listen to you. Just there.
I would never ask someone to tell me what to do. I would not put that responsibility on anyone. I constantly search for options and suggestions and alternatives that I can try. LOL! At one time, many moons ago, I thought I had so much wisdom on life. I would hand it out like candy to anyone who I thought needed my expert opinion and assistance. Whew, hoo! Have I grown since then. What a fat head I had :)
This forum is much like a magazine or newspaper or TV - if I hit upon something that I don't like, I can turn the page or change the channel. I want to share my experiences. Maybe they will help someone find an alternative way to attack a problem. Maybe what someone else did will resonate for me, and will give me a new way to look at stuff.
I have more empathy for my spouse than I do for anyone I know. I want to shake him and "make" him wise up and see what he has going for himself. A daughter who adores him, a son who admires him, a wife who loves him, family and friends who think highly of him. It is awful to watch him self-destruct. He is gloomy, negative, and thinks everyone is out to get him. He thinks everyone has some hidden meaning or agenda - and a not very nice one - behind everything they say or do. I just cannot take it anymore.
Me, I have probably been too up-front and direct. Hey, one time my daughter said to me, :Mom, if someone calls to tell us a family member has passed away, could you please say something like "I am sorry I have some very sad news" rather than just telling us flatly that "So-and-So died?" I learned a great lesson in that episode.
I really need to find a financial planner or something like that to help lay all our financial info on the line. From where I sit doing the books, we get about $500-$1000 deeper in debt every month. Gasp! I know. I have cut out spending, trimmed a lot of things. Drive a 2001 vehicle, do not go out, but the debt must get paid. How to get my spouse to see that the hole at the bottom of the barrel is draining cash faster than we put it in.
Oops, and there is the rub. I KNOW THIS financial situation. I have kept it rolling for 29 years. I drop it and it explodes all over the place. He does not see it nor look at it nor even know the specifics. My own behavior is what I have to address in this situation. I am too tightly wrapped up in all the numbers to even have a clue as to how to look at it from a different angle. And get free. . . . . . . .
That's The Million Dollar Question
Submitted by kellyj on
How can you be happy and fulfilled living with someone who (isn't) or is out of control....but yet you have no control over them and what they do effects you and does control some things in your life?
I think the best that can be hoped for is to eliminate as many possible ways they can do this as possible and then accept the rest as being with them. That is it for everyone. Being somewhere in the middle just makes you crazy...stay in and accept or get out.
This is what I meant by "protecting yourself." Quit being responsible for what is not yours and taking some of theirs away from them if they keep abusing the privilege. These are big things we're talking about that really do cause major problems like money, cheating, alcohol, gambling and drug addiction and physical and emotional abuse. That is also what I've referred to about some ADHD problems (not denying that they are) like house chores or forgetting things. In comparison.....there is no comparison. The ADHD issues do cause major problems too but they also seem to hitch hike with other ones when it gets really bad from the sound of some of the stories I read.
My biggest issue is trying to pick up after myself when doing projects, paper work etc.....I've been slowly improving but I may never be like my wife even though there might be a day? She a little excessive in the neat department compared to most people I now so this is where the gap is big between us and what many fights have been about. I see her as extreme and she see's me the same way. This is one of our big ones. But in comparison to some of the other things that I mentioned...this typically ADHD issue (me) appears pretty insignificant. My wife may take exception to my words here ( as I'm looking over my shoulder...ha ) But she's also seeing improvement over time and I am actually doing things about it and trying very hard not to get defensive when she starts getting OCD on me. It's what I want her to do for me so in this case......it's about as good as it gets unless I completely come over to her side when it comes to a neat and tidy house (it's like a museum or a furniture store display!)...not quite but if she had it her way..................I can't complain since I do get to live in a Martha Stewart magazine cover shot or at least....a couple rooms. ha ha The outside and my shop area is a whole different story......Sanford and Son? lol I'm working on that too.
"They project what they can't
Submitted by Standing on
"They project what they can't stand about themselves onto you...which means blaming you for there own faults by telling you that you are this way. This can really get confusing if you aren't paying attention because they also do a very good job of convincing you that they are right. Anytime you bring up a fault or failing of theirs it will come back at you one way or another. That's when you start feeling guilty and badly about yourself. Once you notice this happening I'd immediately stop him anytime he tries to do this....."sorry...I'm not doing this. I know what you are doing and I don't like it. I won't play this game with you"....and then walk away. That's what I mean by leaving the court."
Beautiful. Thank you.
But my experience is - I have NOT pointed out anything or mentioned a single fault or failing, yet he continues to initiate opportunities to blame me and to accuse me, with great contempt, of being moody. The projection is awful.
Time passes
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Hello SherriW13,
It was not too very long ago that I went searching for your posts. As with a few of the other posters here, I connect with what you wrote.
Where I have gotten, in the few years I have been here is realizing that my spouse is a wonderful man, God designed, and has a big, big heart that has been been affected by life, cancer, the loss of his parents, and his life's struggle.
Who he is as a person is someone nice to know. How he behaves as a spouse is just not what I need nor want nor can make work out. I am still in mourning over that. . . . . . .
I too had spent many $1,000s of dollars trying to figure out ME, what I was doing wrong, how to make the marriage work. My spouse was very supportive in my efforts.
With out his realization of who I am, what I can give, my own heart, a MARRIAGE relationship cannot thrive. there is so much responsibility I have shouldered to make our lives run somewhat smoothly. Now that I am 54, and my children are grown, I just have no more energy to do it all.
And still I mourn that what I thought I had - was not real. I kept up the appearances, put out emotional fires left and right, and quite actually poked my nose into his life where I had no business. I enabled a lot. And I feel very guilty that he is miserable.
I do believe he can function OK.
I still have a very difficult time figuring out how to separate our finances - we have so much debt, nothing will be left once we sell it all and pay off the debt to go our separate ways. Heartbreaking. But I NEED joy. I need to unburden my shoulders. I need to come our of the proverbial closet of denial and face my family with honesty about my own actions.
Nice to hear from you again.
Hi SherriW13...... I Was Following Your Thread
Submitted by kellyj on
I may have some insight based on your husbands behavior and comments. Being an ADHD (male spouse) does not automatically qualify me to give insight or advise by any means....possibly just the opposite? I say this because of so many comments made in context to this forum and I definitely understand why there is some validity to them.
But if you want to learn how to rob a bank....the best teacher might be a veteran bank robber? Actually the FBI really does hire ex-cons to do this very thing.
Aside from this however....the relationships I've had in my past; family, friends, ex-love relationships have included some people who I might call certifiable.......my therapist and I have unraveled a lot of mysteries that have plagued my past when it comes to some of these folks. I might be digging a deeper hole in the credibility dept. at this point since I did have a choice to be with/around some of these people in the first place aside from my own family but for the sake of argument for now...... let's just say I would be the equivalent to a reformed alcoholic at an AA meeting if you get my drift? FYI: drinking has never been one of my issues....just say'in.
Also....the reason I've come back here currently is to keep reminding myself of the very things that I am trying to work on in myself and reading these posts does a good job of this for me as well as picking up new info along the way.
So here is what I see in your story about your husband through the eyes of someone who has ADHD....
The changes you saw in his ADHD related to money appeared because of stress....I can't speculate why for him but the symptoms will emerge and show themselves where they didn't before because of that. I don't have any insight for you about the drinking outside of that it seems he's self medicating to ease pain....obviously a lot of pain inside which might be associated with ADHD by his life experiences in having it? maybe
What was most telling to me was the thing that brought you here in the first place in his behavior and comments after watching ADHD and loving it. I just recently watched it too and my reaction to it was distinctly different than his in fact...my wife and I watched it together (twice) and it was really great to hear some of the things being said and hear things put into words that I had not been able to before. The overall experience was very positive and I use it as a reference often when communicating things about having ADHD to my wife.
Without going way into depth about this.....I immediately see a victim. It's easy to become one with ADHD. I've been there to a lessor degree than the details you described about your husband but I have been with and around people (family) who are hopelessly lost in being this way and I want to make sure I am never that way again......another reason for coming to this forum as a reminder.
I see victim language victim behavior all over the place with him. Flipping back and forth between angry and abusive to crying and feeling sorry for himself (unlovable). I say this with a great deal of empathy but none the less....it's a pattern of not taking responsibility and projecting all his inner pain and insecurity onto to everyone else. (Read my recent post about insecurity...it applies to what I see happening with your husband )
In order to understand and interpret victim language...you have to learn to think like a victim and wrap your head around how the world is viewed from someone who's adopted this way of thinking .....through the same lenses and filters otherwise you won't be able to understand it because it is a distortion of perception. I say this like this is a type of person...just like I hear the comments about ADHD as if WE who have it are defined by it completely but this isn't true or accurate. It's a mind set ....a perception of reality but it can be changed by changing your perception. I read the post talking about Borderline personality disorder and this kind of thinking is part of that but on a whole different level. I'm not going to speculate on that here but the drama component seems to be there.
The comment you made in reference to your husband going off to the mountains to find himself reminded me of Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ.....there's no place like home. It's called not taking responsibly and thinking you will find happiness some place else. Problem is you can't run away from yourself. No matter where you go...there YOU are.
The only reason I can say these things is that I had to learn this for myself in order to understand my family and sort out what was real and what was the distorted reality that I experienced while growing up. (like your daughter perhaps) It's the same pattern of irrational behavior that you describe in your husband and I recognized it just from the little you wrote.
Is this characteristic of someone with ADHD? I don't know but I do know you don't have to have ADHD to be this way that much I'm sure of.
Bottom line to what I see is the pattern of behavior which I recognize from my own experience with living with people like this. It can makes you believe that you're crazy but it is really them not you. This was the unraveling I was referring to that I did with my therapist. The positive part in doing this is that it really does give you the ability to separate yourself from and see it as it is happening so you can make good decisions on what you can do to keep yourself and your daughter out of harms way. I don't necessarily mean physically.....all his threats and lashing out might be nothing more than a way of getting attention or using you as a toilet to try and dump his (shit) issues onto because he won't take responsibility for them in the first place and can't endure living with it inside of him.
I'm sorry for my rambling on but if any of this makes sense to you it might help you to research this more yourself if you think it will help.
I do empathize with you since this does have an unpleasantly familiar ring to it for me.
Take care
J
I have read this twice..and
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I have read this twice..and will read it a few more times before I reply. In the meantime...thank you. Your post was very helpful.
There is also a huge black hole or guilt involved...and i dont know of its due to his horrible reactions and now having to face what he did...or because he's cheated/ is cheating again. He emphatically denies this..but obviously he's going to.
For some reason, after
Submitted by SherriW13 on
For some reason, after getting out of the house and clearing my head (I worked last night) or maybe it is just God giving me some clarity, I finally feel I have a decent theory about what is happening. I've had all of the pieces of a puzzle, I just could make them form one decent conclusion that satisfied every question. I think he's done something horrible. I think he's possibly still doing it. I think he feels so much guilt that it is difficult for him to even be around me. I think it has some tie to his job too as a lot of his hatred is focused on his job (had an affair with a coworker? Student? He works at a university and is in classes himself ) whatever it is he can't live with himself but he can't bring himself to tell me either. I am honestly terrified of finding out but know that this pain has to end and the truth must come out. I cannot make him tell me though..so I'm really unsure of what I will do but God will lead me. There is simply no other explanation. He still hasn't come home. I reviewed our bankruptcy and feel I had good news..it may possibly end sooner than I thought ( he seems to focus a lot on when it will be over..saying he's leaving when it is) and I emailed him the information. I said I wanted him to know since he seemed anxious to get it over with so he could leave. He said ..twice..that he does not want to leave. But he hasn't been home in three nights. That is all of the communication we have had.
What really is going on anyway
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
SherriW13,
I have discovered something about my self and getting into old patterns of communication. I can line up my own thoughts, draw definite conclusions, and feel confident in my convictions. Just like a nice deck of playing cards, all lined up in my hand, clubs, diamonds, hearts, spades, aces through kings, It all makes perfect sense, all logically followed through. 52 pieces of information following through their sequence.
Then enter ANYONE with a strong competitive personality. All my nicely thought out ideals fly all over the room and I am scrambling to try to line them up in their sequential order while trying not to feel like the blabbering idiot.
I know I am slowly getting better with this. I even had joined Toastmasters several years ago so I could gain confidence in the area of verbally expressing my thoughts.
It is still hard for me. I choose wisely in which confrontations I want to engage. Politics? No way. Hot topics of current events? No way. Why? Because they are not important to me.
Discussing my marriage with my sposue? This has become one of those topics that I have to back away from. The communication is not on even playing grounds either. I want to find peaceable ways to live together. I FEEL my spouse coming at me, both barrels loaded, heels dug in, ready to WIN.
That is a game/event/situation I have decided I do not want to participate in any longer. I want to engage with people who want to engage with me. Not who want ME to see THEIR way of thinking.
I upset the apple cart in a major way in my life. I am beginning to see it as a positive thing! Extremely positive. You want to engage with me? Then see me, love me, want me, and try to work with me.
I do NOT want to play guessing games with my spouse. I do NOT want to wonder if he is being deceitful - for WHATEVER reason. It is really hard to back away. I did not have the relationship I thought I had. I tried hard, and he was willing to let me. Oiy. Oiy. Oiy. And he KNEW he was controlling the situations by being angry and giving me the cold shoulder. He knew.
I thought you were gonna say
Submitted by Standing on
I thought you were gonna say that you had those 52 cards all neatly sequential and evenly spaced and then... in blew add :)
I've finally admitted that it's impossible for me to theorize about my husband's motivations or lies, yet I continue finding myself doing it in others' situations. For Sherri, i wonder... since he keeps bringing up the bankruptcty, could that not be the thing of which he is so ashamed? The horror that keepa him away from the house, because he cannot escape it there?
Oh, how I would love for things to be so simply explained, yet they rarely are.
I'm doing the same things i have done for years, but now i have accepted my alone-ness in it.
I do not need him to appreciate or to value me for it. I do it because it needs to be done and i try to remember to make joy in the doing. Him? He is excelling in the victim role, gone in to work with the deep woe that i did not chase him down to kiss him goodbye. He has an audience of one. Himself.
Well a lot has come to light
Submitted by SherriW13 on
Well a lot has come to light in the last week or so.
His job required him to get his education...he worked for a university. He dropped a class, screwed up his pell grant money, ended up being billed by the university (his education is supposed to be free) and I have very few details but his "impulsiveness" got him fired. I don't know if he refused to pay it, refused to finish scho..I have no idea. All I know is that they walked him out and, contingent upon him signing some confidentiality papers, hell get 2 months severance.
He drank unbelievable amounts of hard liquor (a boundary of mine that he totally stomped all over) from a Tuesday until last night. He's literally unbearable when he drinks liquor..talks about very off the wall stuff..everything that comes from his mouth is terrifying (he said last night that we couldn't stop it, that we were going to lose our house..) I told him no more and he drank only a few beers today. Not great but he wasn't unbearable.
Also, very long story short..it was a female he was texting. I put two and two together and figured out who she is even. He was having a very strange conversation last night and when he got off of the phone he admitted it was this female's (Annie) husband and he told him she was cheating. I knew she had hurt him and he was retaliating. I asked for an explanation today when he was sober. He admitted they were friends but said nothing ever crossed any lines, he liked the attention (I literally am about to give up over THIS) , and said he could have had an affair if he had wanted to but didn't. Although he would have to be a complete idiot to rat her out to her husband IF HE was screwing her, I really don't know that I believe that he didn't. He said he did indeed retaliate because she stabbed him in the back because she did to support him when he got fired.
My my mind is overwhelmed and reeling. When he's sober I have hope that he will get another job and we will get thru this bankruptcy and keep our home. But like tonight, after 4-5 beers he starts saying he wants to move away from here and he hopes I will come with him. He claims to still be very unhappy here. We, for obvious financial reasons, cannot leave this area. We can't. Not to mention, he's treated me horribly for months..and I suspected all along another woman was the reason..so I can't bring myself to go anywhere with him. He cannot be nice enough now..now that he needs my support and now that his attention well has run dry. I'm second choice and I'm not ok with that. I am keeping the peace for now prayin he will sign the papers and get the two months pay and we will go from there. We are very close to getting our bankruptcy paid. I pray God will get us through it so I won't be so very financially dependent on him. Right now I am and I am terrified he will abandon us.
Oh, Sherri, I'm sorry to hear
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Oh, Sherri, I'm sorry to hear this. How frightening for you. I don't know what to say except that I'm sorry and that you must do whatever is necessary to keep yourself physically safe from your husband. I'll be thinking about you.
Shelter?
Submitted by Standing on
Sherri, it does seem that you need an emergency escape plan. Have you made contact with a local shelter? Could you stay with someone from church? I know that the bankruptcy seems like the next thing right now, but there's a very unpredictable and irrational elephant in the middle of your room. Please be safe!
I have options but they aren
Submitted by SherriW13 on
I have options but they aren't options I want to exercise. If we can make it a few more months then when the ch 13 is paid I could, with some cooperation from my work, be able to keep my house and not have to worry so very much about what he will or won't do. He's just far from stable, was before this happened obviously, and now it seems he can't just get another job and get on with life..he wants to "run" from this town and the mess he's made. Quite possibly to avoid the fallout of his latest inappropriate friendship. Need I mention that he basically crucified me, after reading my emails, for MUCH LESS than what he's admitting to? Who knows what the full story is. I figure if he was having an affair with her I will hear about it soon enough. The texting was constant and started out of nowhere around May. So many other red flags now going off in my head and he says "can't you just trust me?" I wish I could.
Good to know that you are not trapped.
Submitted by Standing on
I cling to that fact regularly: I am not stuck. There are options. He will not victimize me because I will not be his victim.
Of course, you cannot trust him. His pattern of behavior has prohibited that. I can't think of much worse than the suspicions and negative anticipations that someone who operates this way can create and with which we torment ourselves. All I know is to choose to stop tormenting ourselves and accept... and detach... and be prepared with alternate plans.
What I've learned is that the more calm, cool, and collected I appear to be, the more likely my husband is to blow a gasket and to act out. This is quite predictable. It usedqui to freak me out, but now I've begun paying closer attention to my own behavior, instead of his. He can be so convincing in his efforts to shift all the blame onto me that I've found myself silently doing that work for him, within myself. No more. Now, when he starts in on me, I list my own actions and activities and attempts to show him love, and leave it at that, walking away.
Taking steps to protect your future can ease the trepidation of it in many ways... including the fear of not being able to deal with him "forever". Checking things off of my self-care list and working at becoming a more well-rounded adult are impacting me, which indirectly impacts him, because he can no longer just toss out any bit of randomness with the notion, "gotta love me!" Yes, indeed, gotta love him... but that does not mean what he thinks it means. Thought for the day: Unconditional love continues while an individual washes his life down the drain, but does not accompany him. Take good care of yourself!