ADHD Wife has not talked in 2 months. How do I break this silence?

Yes

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 02/17/2016 - 18:51

aimhigh3321

Does anyone have advice or a history of a lengthy avoidance ?

Yes. It is one of the mysteries I do not understand. My spouse would get angry, and sleep hugging the outer seam of our mattress. . . . .until I couldn't;t stand it. . . .and I CHANGED my mind. And was apologizing to him. It set a very bad pattern.

That pattern cannot change until there is awareness to the who/what/why.

Conflict resolution is difficult in any couple. Add ADHD that was not diagnosed until later in life- - and it is difficult.

All I can do is stop my side of the dynamic.

I read your comments in the threads: His perception is inaccurate and he accuses me of feeling ways I don't. and When the ADHD person says "I don't feel included in the family".

Yep, all this ties together to make communication very difficult.

sincerely,

Luz

ADHD Spouse has been angry for 2 months..

Submitted by NonADHD on Wed, 02/17/2016 - 19:22

Hi Luz,

I agree, I may have created a bad pattern as well and failed to do my part to stop the tantrums. Now, that pattern has exploded and my wife is caught in frame of mind that is hatred and avoidance towards me. I'm a great gut and I dont get this. I may not be the smartest but I'm learning to be a great husband by this, is just way over blown. My wife cant even talk to me, she blurts out criticisms and that's it. No good morning, good night, how are you, I'm sorry etc. For 2 months !! It's entirely ridiculous. I see there are two sides to ADHD, a loving side that seems normal, give and take some silly control issues but then there's a dark side that is cruel, silent, critical, mean, hateful, distant, arrogant, cut off, disrespectful, there are what I have been observing in my wife. It's as if I'm watching another person here in the house with me, and it's not the woman I married. I'm determined to maintain my ground, not comment or say anything, the ball is in her court. We need God at the center of this marriage because right now its dysfunctional and out of control. What I don't understand is that we are both smart, in love and attracted to each other. Bu she has competely left this marriage and I'm not sure if she is cognitive of it or just totally hyper focused on other issues. We have important matters that need attention, the both of us need to attend to. It's crazy !!! I feel terrible for both of us. Im questioning everything, I have never seen this before and I'm not sure what's going to happen. She loves and adores her son and he and I have an amazing relationship so I don't see how she would put that at risk, but who knows, I question her judgment now.

Get Help!

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 02/17/2016 - 20:55

In reading this post I would suggest you two go get some counseling..(way to much emotion)...Her actions are saying a hurt much deeper than a disagreement....you are no match for this....

...2 Months

Submitted by NonADHD on Wed, 02/17/2016 - 21:02

Good point c ur self...but this is counseling...we work together, as we may be the experts tht are right in the trenches to figure out ways to improve each others situation...besides...I have a masters in psychology and Ive spoken to some therapists/counselors who suck at advice and just don't get it..I'm tired of being referred to the 5 Love Languages...this is much deeper......my wife has been married twice before and has a son with another man....we both dont have great resumes in relationships....

Where is the elusive answer, I would sure like to know.

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 02/17/2016 - 22:46

aimhigh3321,

My bad. . . .I had a typo in my own name - - should have said Liz!

Anyway, there have been a long line of years and counselors for me, us, and my spouse. And self help books. And when I try to start out by saying, "Here is a list of tings we tried. . . . . . . . . . ." there are suggestions to read or try things we had said we did.

We have also had suggestions/directions of things that just are absolutely not ok/good for me.

I did embrace this bit of wisdom many years ago: "The purpose of counseling is to give you ideas and suggestions, NOT to make your decisions for you."

I understand your frustration. I feel that same frustration.

Sincerely,

Liz

Liz..How Long for you

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 03:22

Liz,

How long have you been going through this...communication seems to be the major problem here...how long have you been going through your issue?

Discovering new stuff everyday

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 11:00

I think if I want to pinpoint a "shift in the tide" I can say about 6 years.

Grrrr, since I just tried to "cut and paste" that sentence to the beginning of my post. . . . . .and succeeded in erasing the whole post. . . . . . .I will leave my answer short and sweet.

Liz

aimhigh....Healing isn't coming from my mind...but to it.....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 00:20

Yes, you can find it all here...rants, anger, bitterness, excuses and some great advice....Congratulations on your masters, i know it took work and dedication. I agree with you about the 5 love languages...if it's not used as a tool for the reader instead of a way to project onto your spouse it's poison...Your wife will never change her past, nor will you change your's...If Grace and Love don't drive mine and your efforts, than there will be no hope for our marriages....No matter our accomplishments....

I wish you the best...

Help thrown out again..

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 07/09/2016 - 17:01

Hi well I just got thrown out it's been 2 weeks my wife will not let me back in and she's still angry she will not talk to me she will not communicate to me it's always my fault it's everything I've done and all I tried to do was to talk to her and communicate to her we have our stepson now full-time because his father just committed suicide and I have no idea why my wife is keeping me away. I love them both I love this marriage I don't know what to do she will not talk to me he is blaming everything on me and she is so angry.

Maybe it isn't anything about you

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 07/10/2016 - 01:43

Hello,

If your stepson's father just committed suicide - - - that would be your wives ex-husband. . . or at least the father of her child?

Maybe you just need to step back and let her anger be about the suicide. That is a lot for her to wrap her thoughts around. . . . . . This would be the time to step back. . . . . .and put your stuff on hold for a week or two. , , ,and give her time to process it all.

Those are just my thoughts.

Sincerely,

Liz

Not about me

Submitted by NonADHD on Sun, 07/10/2016 - 15:11

Hi Liz,

You maybe right. I just don't know. I was an idiot, and questioned something and she exploded. I seem to always question something when we are slightly talking, but its still not right. We have a whole lot of things to discuss; sleeping in seperate beds, non communication, she is extremely sensitive and on edge, my new role in a full time step dad, our role in raising him. I don't push the agenda, but when I think it's ok to ask I do, but she explodes. She has been extremely short and bossy with me. I have been spending a lot of time wit my step son since he has been with us, she trusts me with im and we get a long like father and son, I love it. My wife has no patience with me and it seems we have unresolved issues that we should discuss. But your right, the suicide is a shock, and she was coordinating with him weekly, if not daily. Now, that has all changed. I think myy wife see's me as being selfish and uncaring. I'm just being me, and taking control of the situation, I didnt know him well and I have no sympathy for him and what he did, that's selfish. But somehow I feel like the enemy. I have made mistakes but I'm 100% faithful, and loyal. My wife is a very beautiful woman and we make a great couple, everyone says that. But I have been on the back burner since the honeymoon wore off, the typical ADHD honeymoon. To boot, my wife is a Leo with ADHD, the anger is just incredible. All directed at me. I'm mot going to stoop to fight her. I was raised in an Italian family and you never hit a woman, no matter what. She has more balls than I do in arguments, and I was in thee military for 8 years. She is cocooned with anger. I'm just worried and insecure that she is making a permanent decision in a temporary situation. I don't know, she wont talk when she is like this.

WHY would you think that THIS behavior is ADHD?

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Wed, 02/17/2016 - 23:26

WHY would you think that THIS behavior is ADHD? I doubt that it is.

Have we come to the point that all bad behaviors and symptoms of OTHER mental illnesses are now just neatly called ADHD?

Is that because being Dx'd ADHD is better than being Dx'd with Borderline Personality Disorder or some other disorder that has the traits that the person is displaying?

Your wife likely has something much more seriously wrong with her....other than ADHD.

the "silent treatment" is passive aggressive behavior...having it go on THIS long suggests some sort of Splitting is going on. You've been painted black.

WHY would yo think this is bad behavior for ADHD..

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 08:12

Overwhelming,

It's bad because its not normal and any sense. I havent done anything to deserve such treatment and since she has ADHD since childhood more than likely it must be that. I know it must be other things and she is extremely stressed over the co-care of her son. Her sons father is a major jerk, he lived off my wife and had an affair and married their pediatrician while she went to work as a Delta flight attendant. I know he and his new wife are trying to make it as miserable for her as they can. Its really sad.

Your wife may have had ADHD

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Fri, 02/19/2016 - 04:35

Your wife may have had ADHD since she was a child, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something else wrong. the other possible thing that is wrong with her aren't really allowed to be Dx'd on children.

Your wife may have had very bad treatment from her ex and his new wife, but the fact that she's using you as her whipping boy is very telling. Get her to a clinical therapist....not just a counselor.

Overwhelmed...

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 02/19/2016 - 11:17

Hi,

It's not the about the exact reason to what's wrong, there can be many reasons and it may be anything. Anything can set it off, as we all know. The point to all of this is the unusual behavior/symptoms that are assigned to ADHD. How to intervene and stop it. Yes, my wife is under a lot of stress and pressure, but how much is from the condition? The point is, the way she is behaving and the lack of communication. The mere fact that she doesn't even see this or doesn't know just how to respond. I can ee the "learned helplessness" in a way. Once backed into a corner, the behavior becomes even worse such as , defensiveness, paranoia....

Aim,

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 08:33

Aim,

There are really important reasons to pursue the tack that in their different situations and ways that OWW, Liz, C and J and others discuss, which is to put their own wellbeing first, and act in the relation from that, from own balance, healthy boundaries, etc. instead of trying to, I think they used to say in therapy speak "regulate" the other spouse's alarming, saddening, or disruptive behavior, trying to control or change it.

But I'm certainly with you that that's not all that a person relatively new to a relation needs to do. I went on alert when you wrote

I see there are two sides to ADHD, a loving side that seems normal, give and take some silly control issues but then there's a dark side that is cruel, silent, critical, mean, hateful, distant, arrogant, cut off, disrespectful, there are what I have been observing in my wife.

You ended that making it really clear that you were talking about what you saw and how you interpreted your wife's actions and motives. But what you wrote started out making a generalization about all people with ADHD, and about I went whoops, that twosidedness that includes a mean streak doesnt describe my partner In fact I dont think of him as having two moral sides at all.

Keep going with me for a moment: I'm in a relatively new marriage as well, also past the dating and courting time where either I or the new relation was the place of my partner's hyperfocus.

Yes, yes, yes, I agree that what you asked on the board you needed to ask... there's a need for the person moving into permanent relation, cohabitation, marriage with someone with adhd to succeed in a crash course, often in a very bewildering,often chaotic daily life that just plain wasnt there before, to understand the differences among

adhd directly generated behavior (attention matters, short term memory fails...things coming directly out of the biologically inherited condition. And it certainly doesnt hurt to take inventory of one's own biologically determined behaviors, because those affect the relation too.

the adhd/add persons neuroses, coping behaviors, lack of repertoire for relational situations. And one's own.

and this is important: what between the two is modifiable and what needs to be accepted. This latter area is hard or has been hard, for me to separate out from ADHD directly generated behavior, and the second group, his behaviors that are coming out of his past mistreatment or past lack of a chance to develop a different way of doing. Many people who are active posters at the moment have had the multiple years in the relation, and can sort these three different things accurately. We all here only have a sample of one couple to work with, though we listen and talk to each other, and read. I just wanted to agree with you, that newly into a post courting phase of an ongoing relation, there IS a need to know the difference between if it's a biologically generated behavior (on my partner's side his focus on things in a physical field is different from mine, so he often misplaces or drops things; on mine, I have a hearing problem picking out voices if there is large or complex background sound)...or if it is coping or old habit coming out of his past life...or if it is something between us that we have generated

So necessary to make these distinctions, because my own healthy behavior...such as operating with good boundaries, depends on which of these are going on, at the moment. My boundaries are different and my expectations are different, depending on which of the three is going on. I dont know why the therapeutic literature doesnt deal seriously with this learning curve about needing to sort ADHD from the ADHD persons relationship habits coming out of his or her past life, from what you might call new relationship events and wrinkles that are produced new, in the new relation

a great deal rides on the Non ADHD person getting it right, if he /she lacks prior experience living around ADHD.

For one thing, not being able to distinguish when its ADHD, when it is inadequate interacting or coping come out of past life, and when its something that I and my partner were cocreating new is very, VERY bewildering, like being in a dark room with the sound of guns going off and things bumping into you with no idea whether the gunshots and bumpings are aimed at you are not, so cant assess how much in danger you are, or what action to take. Me, I went through a freeze like a rabbit what the hell IS this phase it only started getting better, when I could begin to read the home situation more accurately, not reading it like I would read a situation where there was no ADHD involved.

There's a world of living with ADhd in various couple relations to read about here. One thing that just about everyone ends up writing here, is that it takes two. One person cant carry the whole relation or fix it. There cant be one participater and one non participater.

My partner has never done anything like what your wife is doing; Liz's husband has.

just a thought. They say that ADD/ADHD tends to show up differently in women and men. I dont know what to think about that myself. If it would help you to explore that, though, perhaps I can recommend a stint of reading on ADDForums. There Is quite a range of women who are regular posters there, enough so that how they tackle things demonstrates that all people with ADHD are not alike in their coping, resources, evaluations of ADHD, evaluations of people without it. And they answer from what they know

Best wishes.

Now

NOW...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 09:45

Thanks,

It really helps talking to someone who is living it as I am. I came here, to this website because counselors just don't get it and I may need specialist in this area. I think you made an excellent point, I'm not referring to everyone with ADHD, just in my marriage. See, this is important because we all bounce thoughts, situations and ideas off each other, this helps tremendously. I have a masters in psychology, I studied all the major theories and consider myself a Freudian. I'm good at it and did very well. I began to pursuit another masters in counseling with Walden University as a, CLMHC (clinical license mental health counselor) to work primarily in addictions & suicide. But since I got married and moved here, my wife came up with th idea of pursuing a business masters with University of Georgia which I start this September. I say this because ADHD and it's symptoms are clinical, they are a part of the DSM-IV (the psychology bible of diagnosing cognitive issues) and this is considered neurological. So, I observe our interactions communication, intimacy etc., all of it and this is something I have never experienced. I'm trying to learn to change my behaviors to help us not get in tuff situations. Maybe, all of us non-ADHD'r have very different and somewhat similar situations. Such as, we all have a spouse with ADHD and most are taking medication and, we all have very different situations based on the level of intensity of the ADHD behavior. I think my wife is in her fortress of protection, the walls are up, and I'm outside looking in. I don't know why, she has not uttered one word to me as to why. I get all the bad looks, the sharp snippets. I just maintain my ground, flow like water and obsevre, waiting, praying she breaks out of this. It doesnt matter now what prompted this, it's clinical to go on this way.

aimhigh....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 11:07

I think my wife is in her fortress of protection, the walls are up, and I'm outside looking in. I don't know why, she has not uttered one word to me as to why. I get all the bad looks, the sharp snippets. I just maintain my ground, flow like water and observe, waiting, praying she breaks out of this. It doesn't matter now what prompted this, it's clinical to go on this way.

This is a great statement that I have found to be a huge part of limiting conflict in my marriage....If you can be the fly on the wall, when the walls go up due to control or just being unapproachable for what ever reason, you will do well for yourself and the relationship....

You have the training and intellect to know no matter how capable you are, or any counselor is....That help can only come when it can be received...If the walls are up...we all become only on lookers in that life....

Also you are wise enough to know you will never be able to counsel your own wife....Your depth of understanding of the human psyche will only be relevant in your marriage as a tool for self recognition and management....

C UR SELF....

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 11:27

C ~

Thanks, I'm just trying to figure this out. Rejection is a major destroyer of self esteem and when the woman you married and love is totally rejecting you, well, it's impossible to understand. There's no answer. That's why I come here, to talk to others that are experiencing their issue. I'm using the philosophy of Tae Qun Do, let the energy pass by and not meet the resistance. My wife has stored up an incredible amount of bad energy that's directed at me. Maybe, she feels comfortable using me as the target, the negative energy has to go somewhere. I feel strong enough to handle it since I've ben through many difficult situations before I met her. In order to understand something, you have to look it in the eye, dive down into the bowels of something so unpredictable, so different than anything you have experienced is the only way to understand it and hope defeat it. I want to be able to help my wife to understand that we are in this together, and I'm her passenger, not the enemy. This is one of the most difficult things I've ever gone through because I'm helpless in understanding the root cause and the extent to its intensity. I has a long talk with her mom, my other in law, and she agrees that this is not a divorce, but to just hand in their and keep my faith. That's it !!! I'm the only pone right now in my wife's life, family, co-workers that is getting the brunt of this unbearable lesson. There is going to be one of two roads to take, this will turn around or it will lead to divorce. What's so hard for me is I'm committed to this marriage, but I'm inexperienced to deal with this mental schema. I'm trapped, a prisoner in a way and I don't appreciate it. It hurts to know my wife has no empathy to see this. This is a whole new side that has shown its ugly face and we don't need it, but its here. Its interrupting everything and it's mocking our inteligence. But I can't get her to STOP the madness. She is okay being here.

That's such a tough situation

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 12:07

That's such a tough situation for you to be in, so soon after marriage. And for her: she is shutting some things down. I'm glad that you don't write like you think you are failing at something and that's the reason for her wall of silence. She's obviously tending it and insisting on it...

You wrote

I'm trying to learn to change my behaviors to help us not get in tuff situations.

Nice guy. Each of us in the couple can do some of that. Somebody's got to start. You started, considering what you could do, then started trying to do it.

Maybe, all of us non-ADHD'rs...have very different situations based on the level of intensity of the ADHD behavior.

I think the relational maturation (past experience of intimate relations, past habits, success or failure in any part of that kind of relating in the past) of each of the pair affects things, too.

I wonder if your wife got herself into that separation, but doesn't know how to get herself out of it. Just wondering about that.

Best to you, Doug

NOW...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 12:22

Now,

You said something so profound !! I wonder if your wife got herself into that separation, but doesn't know how to get herself out of it. Just wondering about that. You may be right !!!

In past arguments when you're both throwing trash at each other, she prided on saying, " I will never come to you, I wont chase you" and that may be true. My wife has so much pride its crazy. Its literally hard for her to apologize and lately to forgive, which is crazy because she is a Christian. In her mind she is justified of all the criticism, insults, slaps, shoves, pushes, throwing my things, all the get out !!! (these did not hurt me) and threats. I'm the one who is the more sensitive and emotional. So, you may be right. In her ADHD mind, how does she let go, and come to me. This is the only way it can change but she is not letting go. I'm chipping away, slowly at doing the little things that she see's in hopes of pulling her out of her hypnotic state (metaphor) and get her back into this marriage.

This is to familiar...

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 16:39

( I'm the one who is the more sensitive and emotional.) Same here.....

I see so much of myself in you, and so much of my wife in yours....You made a statement about self esteem that hit home with me....You really need to make sure you don't allow yourself to make your wife your identity....It's super hard for confident Men/Husbands to accept we must back away and stop trying to fix things....

You must keep your self separate in mind and spirit and not engage behaviors that do not promote honor of the relationship or you won't be in a healthy place to receive her when she finds her way out of the darkness....Plus, your peaceful and healthy state along with your Love and forgiveness will be the best medicine for her inability to trust and be at peace.....

Do not dwell on it, and keep telling yourself, it has nothing to do with me, because unless there is something you've done or said to hurt her it's her life to deal with... ...If you do need to apologize, humble yourself and do it...

We are alike...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/18/2016 - 17:05

C ~

Thanks, I agree. I don't idolize my wife, I'm just in love with her and I'm a romantic at heart. Intimacy, closeness, sharing, all are so important to me and can become a problem for the non-ADHD'r if he/she doesn't protect these values and emotions, when ADHD symptoms become well known. At first, those symptoms are well hidden, then thy rear their ugly head. I thought it would be so different this time for me, I ws so ready and prepared. I thought I was being lead all the way here to by the Lord. My wife is everything I wanted in a woman, well almost. I realize that we are all not perfect, but as far as attraction and being close, we do have that. But then there's a Pink Elephant called ADHD !! Right now, it's sitting directly on my chest !!! This is the rubix cube of marriage, I guess it could be worse and in so many situations it can be. This is some real deep emotional issues. I'm in it ll the way. But I think, if we can get through this, then we may be closer and more bonded then I could ever imagine. I've been lucky, I have never experienced emotional trauma such as this. I have studied such psychotic issues as PTSD and suicide. ADHD, Bi-polar and other mental issues are extremely complicated.

Breaking the Prideful Habit

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Tue, 02/23/2016 - 06:21

<<<<<<

Now,

You said something so profound !! I wonder if your wife got herself into that separation, but doesn't know how to get herself out of it. Just wondering about that. You may be right !!!

<<<<<<<<

Of course that is what's going on. She's waiting for him to "give in" so she won't have to give up her pride. Don't do it. She needs to have that pride broken....the sooner the better ....otherwise this will be the pattern in your marriage. Living with a prideful person is an ugly thing. BREAK THAT PRIDE.

I had to literally break my H of this "prideful habit".

He, too, was always very prideful (and occasionally can still be in some areas). He would say things like: "I will never come to you. If you hadn't apologized first, I never would. I would never have spoken to you ever again (blah blah blah)."

Before I learned better, I would (stupidly) reinforce this prideful behavior by being the peacemaker. I stopped that a few years ago....I even let it go as far as H filing for divorce twice because I wouldn't budge. The last time he filed for divorce (about 3 years ago), I didn't speak to him for 4 or 5 months. IT KILLED HIM. lol. He thought for sure I would give in. Nope. I patiently waited. My phone rings a unique ringtone for his phone number. So, 4-5 months later, I (finally) hear that ringtone on my phone. He finally broke down....crying.....

I've had to give him some "reminder" experiences since then a few times. His pride would creep up here or there, and I'd leave for a few days....and then he'd break and beg me to come home. Now it only takes him about 24 hours. The last time it only took him 1 hour.

With other people, he can still be prideful....but that's because outsiders don't know what's going on, so they'll often "apologize first," just because that normally is the adult thing to do. But with a prideful person, you can't do that all the time because it just reinforces their pride.

So, this prideful behavior can be broken. Hang tough. She will break at some point. Be pleasant, be happy, go about your business in a "not bothered" way. At some point, she'll find some excuse to say something.

Prideful Habit w/ ADHD....

Submitted by NonADHD on Tue, 02/23/2016 - 09:45

Overwhelmed !

I want to say thank you for the excellent advice and I'm sorry about your situation. That helped me a lot. I really wish I didn't have to be this way, it shouldn't be this hard but living with an ADHD spouse has taught me so many different things that I never thought I would be a part of. Let me ask you this, the 4-5 months that you had to "break" his pride, were you in the same house, or were you separated? My wife too, hide's her true self from the world outside. When I talk to married friends for advice, my case seems so intense compared to theirs. But we I talk to someone married to, or understands ADHD, then I get some pieces of information that helps. This weekend, we had my step son, Saturday afternoon I just got back from a men's retreat (Men Matter) and I braced myself for what to expect. Luckily, she was finally talking, acting like the perfect Mom and the three of us had a great weekend, I get along so well with my step son, he's almost like mine. We talked at her moms house and it seemed so much better. We talked coming back from dropping off my step son, though she was still in the "bossy" mode. What's really hard for me is that I know my wife is hurting, sharing her son with another woman (his step-mom) and seeing him part time must be incredibly stressful. I know underneath she is angry and this keeps the ADHD symptoms boiling under the surface. I want to be there for her, to support her and have her lean on me. This rejection, pride, anger stuff really sets a marriage in the wrong direction and it causes so much wasted time and effort. I feel like I have to be another person, like you said, we need to break the pride, and this is hard on me, not to be me. I do need to break this pride, this strong pride that she is holding onto. Last night, she was distant again, better, but still prideful. At least I know, she may closer to coming back. I think it's the empathy theory with ADHD, she just doesn't have any sensitivity to me right now. I hope I can be as patient as you, and to get her to get out of this prideful, bossy, critical and demanding state of mind and come back to that loving woman I married. I'm a romantic, I love all the intimacy a marriage should have between two people, and not to have it for days, weeks and now months is just insane. Thanks again and I will keep you posted. Give me some pointers on what you did to break the pride !!

My situation with H and Pride....

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 14:19

H spent too many years with "nice" people who would generously end the standoff by being the "bigger person." Unfortunately, that wrongly taught H that these people must have been in the wrong. H would have this nasty tone in his voice when recounting a situation (either with me or another) where he'd say something like: Yes, we argued about ________, but I was right and he/she was wrong. I resolved that I would never speak to that person again unless he/she came to me first." Since others are more mature, they often would make the "first move." That just sent the wrong message to H. In fact, he'd get some sick joy out of later saying to me, "It's a good thing you came to me, because I never would have come to you. You were out of my life in my mind...thrown out. (blah blah blah)" It was just a prideful rant.....and wrong. H had to learn that he couldn't hold to his promise to never approach the other person first.

Pride...

Submitted by NonADHD on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 14:33

Hi OWW (Overwhelmedwife)

Interesting. My wife in her mind is justified by her actions, she just won't apologize, admit to "saying" hurtful things or even the physical things, throwing stuff, pointing a finger of death in my face, shove and a slap (though she did apologize for that after we came back) this time, she seems justified in her mind any behavior that wishes to do even if it so ridiculous to someone else. Example, not talking to me for weeks, me not knowing what to expect, then as soon as her son is here, we're a family. She goes to church and talks about love and being an amazing mom (which she is), but all the while will not hold my hands or kissing. She can't manage finances, spends foolishly and then has the nerve to direct me on finances. ARE WE STUPID !!! I feel for her, because of her dysfunctionalism. It seems she is overly prideful, arrogant, unempathetic and takes huge amounts of risk by doing this. I see now and totally understand how marriages fail when ADHD is present. I could walk out the door and she may not even notice it until someone else brings it up. I read your last email several times since it gave me some comfort. I need to break my wife's PRIDE, not because of feeling rejected and controlled, but because it is interfering with our marriage and everything we did this for.

Futility

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 15:55

I need to break my wife's PRIDE, not because of feeling rejected and controlled, but because it is interfering with our marriage and everything we did this for.

Saddly, this route appears to be a mission in futility. In the same way as we cannot force an alcoholic or an addict to see they have a problem, we cannot force a person who is prideful to stop it! I am not saying you can't try. . . . . . I fear you will be more frustrated than you are now. . . .and she will be the same. And this also rings true as you taking the parent position and trying to make you child behave. Not good.

The only person we really have control over is ourselves.

I suggest you find some alternatives for yourself. Her justifying her actions does not make them correct. You do not need her to agree with you about it for it to be your reality. You said all the following:

she just won't apologize
admit to "saying" hurtful things or even the physical things
throwing stuff
pointing a finger of death in my face
shove and a slap (though she did apologize for that after we came back) this time
seems justified in her mind any behavior that wishes to do even if it so ridiculous to someone else
not talking to me for weeks
me not knowing what to expect
as soon as her son is here, we're a family. She goes to church and talks about love and being an amazing mom (which she is), but all the while will not hold my hands or kissing.
She can't manage finances
spends foolishly
has the nerve to direct me on finances.
she is overly prideful, arrogant, unempathetic
takes huge amounts of risk by doing this.
I could walk out the door and she may not even notice it until someone else brings it up.

My suggestions are coming to you as someone who walked this walk. Your reality was similar to mine. Until, after lots of helpful information, I realized all those issues focused on my spouse. . . . . . and what he was doing . . . . . . . . rather than on why I was allowing myself to live with it..........

If the goal is to make your spouse see . . . .by all means, trying to break her pride is one way to go.

If the goal is to find peace for yourself, and new direction.......working to be the 'best you' will be a good thing. I can paraphrase something I read by Melissa Orlov which will fit your situation - if you work on being the best Doug that you can be, then your wife will likely follow.

To me that means your wife will choose to work on herself.

Very truly,

Liz

Pride...

Submitted by NonADHD on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 15:52

Hi Liz,

Great advice, and I have been working on me, I just didn't expect this marriage to about walking alone in order to protect my own feelings. I guess as a newly married husband who is the non-ADHD spouse, I've gone through the full course of a major lesson in being married to ADHD. I will take this advice and pray she follows. It will be worth it for sure. Overwhelmedwife gave some good advice as well which included focusing on yourself and do what you need to do which in turn, had her husband follow her. This is going to be a lot of work and take me to places I never thought I would want to go in a marriage. I said I would die for her so I guess, I will change myself as well. Thanks.

So much good information is here

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 16:30

Doug,

What I have learned that is very important to me:

The affect ADHD has on a relationship cannot be painted with a wide brush.

What works for one person may backfire for another.

There are plenty of suggestions and alternatives.

I will attempt to paint a mental image for you of Liz: I am 5'8" and my spouse is 6'4'. There is about 150 pound weight different - (he's bigger. . . just sayin'). In one episode about 15 years ago, I got my own panties in such a bunch, I reached up, put my hands around his neck, and pulled my face into his, yelling at him at the top of my lungs.

LOL, foolish on my part. It did not accomplish anything, other provide some fodder for self-reflection of how crazy I was :)

Liz

I have a different take....

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 00:29

Being prideful is not the same as being an alcoholic. An alcoholic's brain has been chemically changed, which is why quitting/changing is almost impossible.

Pride absolutely can be broken. It's better if it's done early on, but it certainly can happen later. I wish I had been more enlightened about Pride earlier in my marriage. Instead, I was always the peacemaker, wanting to smooth things out.....and that wrongly reinforced H's pride.

Pride goes before the fall.... People do learn to "swallow their pride," but they need to experience the opportunities to do so. When we constantly rescue them before they can TRULY experience the opportunity, we rob them of those learning experiences.

ADHD people need those experiences because of the "now, not now" phenomena that goes on in their heads. My H truly believed that he "would never apologize first" or "come to me first"....because he was never made to do so.....by me or anyone else. So, there he was...fat, dumb and happy....believing that he'd never have the desire to apologize or "make the first move" to mend fences....because he had never gotten to the point of FEELING that he needed to make the first move because others were always doing it first.

So....when I stopped doing all the fence mending, H was forced to experience the realities of his stubborness. Sure, there may be some people that will be so insanely stubborn that they will forever "stay silent". Those people are likely loners who really don't mind being apart from the social aspects of companionship. My H probably though HE could be one of those people. He soon found out that he's not. He gets lonely within a few weeks. He misses being able to "tell me about his day".

Comparison

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 08:22

Overwhelmedwife,

I was using the example to highlight trying o control someone. My stance comes from finding my own serenity.

Alcoholism is a big problem. I think the high success rate of AA indicates it is very possible to get into recovery and remain there.

Sincerely,

Liz

The other thing..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 14:56

Liz,

What's frustrating is I'm not sure how to even approach my wife. I'm so ready and willing to talk, get it past u, have a good weekend again and just be together, but I'm so afraid that if I say anything, anything, she's going to criticize or say something defensive. I really need her to break this silence. I would be so happy if she came to me, I would be understanding and welcoming with open arms !!! So frustrating....

My thoughts

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 15:51

Doug,

I have been thinking about this for a bit. I went back and read your original post.

I am understanding the conflict that set this cold-shoulder response in motion was a disagreement about your step child, is this correct?

ADHD aside, co-parenting is already a tough thing when both partners are the biological parent. Step parenting is much more difficult.

Is there any part of your actions - in that specific situation - toward your step child that you regret, or are willing back-pedal on your decision?

Where I am going is not "the peace at all costs game" - I unwittingly played that for a long time. I am just wondering if there is some tidbit that you could offer in hopes of breaking the ice,

From the Momma Bear position, it was tough for me when my spouse and I disagreed on parenting. I wanted to instill in our children that we as parents are not perfect. If a misstep is made, especially in anger, it is important to apologize. If I asked my spouse to apologize, or said "I think Daddy made a mistake," it set off that defense mechanism for my spouse. He felt I was making him look bad, and I was usurping his authority.

This may only be a tree in the forest, but maybe a place to start.

Sincerely,

Liz

Hi Liz

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 16:10

Hey, I just changed my screen name, still the same person, Doug. OK, You know my spouses custody situation is stick. My wife is extremely careful/paranoid about anything going back to that side, they will use against her. This is all about exposure. Their aim, unfortunately is not to let my step son enjoy the best of both worlds but to make her life miserable. We do a pretty good job in co-parenting, he's a good kid full of boundless energy (ADHD as well). She does an excellent job in mothering, we should have primary. What happened did set her off just before Christmas, but last weekend seemed better with my step son and I'm told to hang in there and go slow and be patient, by my mother in law. I think the problem is I'm not working right now since just before Christmas, I have had interviews but nothing solid, I'm working on it. We are financially getting tight and that causes the problem of exposure. Does that make sense. So, it's all on me. She is exposed, and this is something a spouse with ADHD hold onto, it's their protection. JJ made a lot of sense in his sharing. So, I'm the fault at this. This will turn around as soon as I get back to work. ADHD is not patient as you know, it's anxious, defensive and impulsive. This is not the best situation and I'm the blame. But I know I need to get us out of this. I hope that helps.

Not following

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 16:48

Doug,

I am missing something. The disagreement is your wife is upset about you not having a job?

I am also not understanding 'exposure/exposed':

This is all about exposure.

We are financially getting tight and that causes the problem of exposure.

She is exposed, and this is something a spouse with ADHD hold onto, it's their protection.

I understand exposure to be a child living with 2nd hand cigarette smoke, drug abuse, violence, neglect. . . . .

Liz

Exposure

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 17:29

Liz,

It seems to be compounded issue, it started before Christmas with the issue with my leaving a position, but she was supportive. Then the incident with my step son really started it. Since then, we had a fairly good week last weekend, the 3 of us had fun, we talked and spent time together but this week, it started and reverted back to disengagement. What I mean by exposure is the sensitivity of the symptoms which may cause someone with ADHD to have guilt, shame, from the anger, causing the shutting down, defensiveness, the need to stay alone and trust anyone, I get this from ADHD. Hell, I would be defensive and shut down if I exploded everytime and acted foolishly, hurting with words etc. What I mean by exposure is that, not everyone see's the ADHD dark side, in my case here, its kept secret and hidden. Once exposed, to me now, the real symptoms of isolation and distance takes hold and takes a grip on the person. ADHD does not know "cause and effect". I would feel terrible if I exploded like that, total guilt, shame and regret. Once those extremely strong emotions come out, it must impact the ADHD spouse in some way. The distance and disengagement is the safe place. I may look like everyone else that points the finger and blames the persons behavior. So, I'm that guy now. I don't know for how long but I am.

Job, or jobs?

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 10:35

Hi Doug,

This has become a long, multitopic thread. The software for this site has some good features, but generally if a thread becomes long, it's a little difficult to go back to find a detail that was put in an earlier post. So you likely told us, apologies that I can't remember.

Does your wife work at a job outside the home? If so, full time or part time?

Job..

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 11:05

Now,

How are you? Yes she is working full time. The 1st year she wasn't, more like was in shock from losing primary. Even this morning she just walks in to the office and barks an order about me not touching her laundry and just worry about mine. No hello, good morning, a smile, nothing. It s funny, there are some things she is diligent on and others nothing, like clutter of unfinished projects. It's amazing really. I'm very domestic and organized. I was raised doing chores and keeping the inside and outside of a home organized, I brought that here, otherwise, it would like a hoarders home. I just don't understand. My pastor gave me some advice, like on here, just love her, show her I care, don't say anything and pray the Lord is warming her heart. So, that's what I'm doing. I know she's committed and I know she loves me but right now, I don't know this stranger in my house. I wonder that once you're past the honeymoon phase, ADHD lets go of it's inhibition and acts the way it demands on the person and expects you to take it.

Life moves on

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 11:48

Doug,

2 thoughts came to mind:

1. The "Honeymoon Phase" of a marriage happens to everyone. It is not ADHD specific.

2. In my own experience, change is very difficult for my spouse and our son. A difference I see is that my son evolves "into" the change. My spouse seems to "tolerate it" until things resort back to how they were.

Liz

Moves On..

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 12:09

Hi Liz,

In the honeymoon phase I'm referring to the ADHD beginning phase. These discussions, especially mine do not reflect the "normal" relationships, as we know, the ADHD relationship is not normal, in many cases it could be with lot's of work. My marriage is not at the stage, I pray it will be someday. Right now, I'm in the thick of it with no end in sight. I don;t know how to turn this around, get it back on course. I'm getting excellent advice that I'm working that helps, but the ball is in my wife's court, and honestly, it's uncertain th direction this could take. What I mean is, the looks and actions that I'm getting are not "warm and fuzzies", they are threatening and I'm not sure what to do. My two choices, did in and focus on me or, prepare an exit strategy. This is totally out nof my hands. ADHD is in control of this household, but, the non-ADHD is working against it.

Doug, I don't know whether to

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 12:18

Doug, I don't know whether to congratulate you or send you a condolence note for your realization that this is totally out of your hands. Because this realization is key but it's also so sad. I tried so many ways to fix the problems in my relationship that were related to my husband's ADHD and other mental health issues. Eventually, it became clear that what I did had almost no effect on the problems. Example: my husband's lack of communication: if I keep communicating, my husband does not communicate back; if I stop communicating, my husband does not communicate. Or the issue of encouraging him to get treatment: so many resources say that spouses should do so. But then there was at least one therapist who said to my husband, "Are you only here because your wife made you come?" Damned if I did, damned if I didn't.

I fully think I understand

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 12:33

Doug,

I am learning to grasp Liz's dreams, hopes, desires, and actions.

I am learning to be the best Liz I can be.

While it may in reality appear to my spouse as "You better shape up or I am outa here", my own reality is that I hope we can find common ground to enjoy each other's gifts, and work to fulfill both our goals. An error I had made for a long time was to take on my spouse's goals as my own. To 'help' him. To be his support. And while it was admirable, it was done WITHOUT having my own strong foundation of my own dreams. I allowed it to get out of balance.

Can our relationship evolve into something where we can both be happy?

I believe it can.

I have learned that I need to put my time and effort into who I am as person. I was living in "an exit strategy." I am not any longer living that way.

I continue on each day with the 'goal' of remaining married and being happy. I can ONLY do my side. Right now I am focusing on getting my college degree and being a Pre-K teacher. Hey, I will be 57 this fall when that will become a possibility.

I am choosing to not 'create what I fear.' I do not know what tomorrow, next week, next month, next year will hold. Truthfully our marriage is in a holding pattern. I have a secondary plan. My life will not be devastated nor worthless.

I do know for sure it will contain LIZ, being the best she can be, and sharing what she is able.

As for the relationship, I have every hope we can have a good one. Yes indeed, my spouse has a lot on his plate right now. I encourage, and stand back and let him discern how he chooses to proceed. My ultimate goal is for his happiness and my happiness.

Saving our marriage will be great. It is not the ultimate goal to prove my worth.

Does that make sense?

Sincerely,

Liz

Understanding...

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 13:12

Liz,

I could not have said it better. We are in a holding pattern as well, the fuel on board isn't low, but there is no sight of the runway, I don't know when we will come down. I can't change her, I can't either step in and say hello, I'm sorry, I love you, she is just not there. You're right, I can only work on being the best that Doug can be, for now. This is a good learning tool for me when we get back together. I don't want to create what I fear, so I'm just chilling, saying over and over, no matter how she approaches me, I love her and I'm getting into any debates that will fuel the lingering defensiveness.

So just to listen in on a particular matter

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 12:33

Just the matter of working outside the home

Did I get it right that during the first year of your couple of years together, she wasn't working outside the home...or wasn't working full time, but you were?

But from December to now, the situation is taht she's working full time and you're job hunting? I have no criticism behind these questions. I'm just wanting to get the detail of what's happening to the two of you, regarding work outside the home...since you remarked that things had worsened about December. Just wanting to listen, about one stressor (work outside the home) that every couple has to deal with. Did I get the pattern of jobs over the course of your two years of marriage right?

Thanks for asking how I am, I'm doing pretty well today. Every day is different. You wrote: I wonder that once you're past the honeymoon phase, ADHD lets go of it's inhibition and acts the way it demands on the person and expects you to take it."

Doug, I fully trust that your language describes the conclusions you've taken about your wife, but again you've made statement that makes universal claims about ADHD in all people and couples, and that just will never fly with me.

One way that people think about a problem that they have to solve, or something puzzling that they're trying to understand IS to think from generalities down to the particular person who is puzzling, or particular relation that has a problem in it that needs resolution. Yes we do this.

But I think that's a really bad approach to dealing with ADHD in oneself or in someone with whom we're close. Yes we do need to see if we can what the most USUAL cluster of ADHD and relation with ADHD issues are. Yes we do. But to use some universal generalization about all ADHD or all partners of people who have ADHD (like that board visitor in the last few days who came on, apparently, without bothering to spend the human time tor read longitudinally about the lives of people posting, who tried to paint everyone on the board as being angry, whiing people) as a means to make decisions about oneself, or to think that one undestands one's partner, is a recipe for failure.

You have two or three living, breathing, ADHD people who are active or have recently been active on this board who do NOT fit your characterization of all people with ADHD have a dark side (that's an evil side, a mean side, a harmful side, your major premise about ALL people in a group), which you then turn onto your secondary premise: if "all people with ADHD" have a dark side, then your wife has a dark side.

You'll never get anywhere in a relationship, whether there is ADHD in the mix or not, reasoning from unproved claims about the deficiiences, moral character or whatever of a whole group, applying that broadbrush claim to your relationship. It won't work. For one thing, if you believe ALL people with ADHD, or you pick the group, all women, all blacks, all factory workers, all church pastors....have a dark side. YOU will put yourself in combat with a bogus dark side in people that is the product of your mind. You will be assigning yourself to the "light side", and she, in her group, to the dark side.

I grew up with this, I know this dynamic like the back of my hand. Once one labels an individual in one's life with so called negative characteristics of a whole group, the labeler is scot free to conduct himself/herself any way he wants because, you see, if you're in the "white side group" you can do no evil. By definition. All the black stuff is assigned to the other group.

For as long as I'm active on this board, I will never let my husband be included in a group of "dark side" people by someone on this board, whether they know him or not, because he has ADHD. Never. Ever.

My husband is a good man. He does not have a dark side. Like you and me, and everyone on this board, he has some things to work on. We're all part of the human race here. He is who he is, and is his own man. He did not "let go of his inhibitions" after the honeymoon phase. As for expressions of anger, I really think you write like you need to learn some from what seasoned, trained therapists and researchers say about emotional lability and ADHD. It's all over the internet to read, not hard to find

There is a difference between fast-flash irritation or anger due to something neurological that fosters emotional lability (quick changing emotions) and someone who has a chronic, embedded, years long habit of lashing out in anger. That's the stuff for anger management. Yes someone with ADHD or without it can have a chronic, deep anger problem. We have people on this site dealing with this. But chronic rage and anger is NOT inherent in all people with ADHD, and that lability (if you like, a quick fuse) is NOT the same thing as chronic anger and rage. Ask J if you really want to know about this lability. He can point you to some things he has written recently about it.

In the meantime know that what you generalize about all people with ADHD, that their anger produces shame, etc, doesn't fit my husband and I've hit a point of reading enough of these "all people with ADHD" things

You asked how I was. At home, we're still in our honeymoon, although a whole lot of our daily life needs tending, and yes, post hyperfocus, things are different. Plus he and I have been through some hard times in the last several years. He's a grace in my life. With our different patterns of noticing, our different boogy men from the past, our different neurological tool kits, we have kept going in these hard times, and I'm grateful. We do not have everything licked. It's how you come out of these situations, not how the couple goes into them, that matters for the long haul.

As I said it's the first inning of the ball game, at my house, not the fourth, not the 8th.

Every single time you make a generalization about all people with ADHD, you will be attempting to describe my husband and people with ADHD who are actively posting on this site.

To make it clear, I am as disgusted by people with ADHD or ADD whining and grinding declaring a reductive, ignorant of facts stereotype of people without ADHD or ADD, such as our recent hit and run visitor to the board, as I am about people without it spending their energy demonizing people with ADHD

It just gets in the way of any chance at a real relationship.

If you can't accept it from me that my husband is not your proclivity to label all people with ADHD negatively, that's your business. Mine is to tell the truth about what I know, and the one relation I know anything about, and I really DO know things about it, is the one I have at home.

He's a blessing.

No it isn't easy at home.

Now...

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 13:33

Now,

Good point and I apologize for the generalization, I am and can only speak to what I currently understand about ADHD, to only my situation. I guess I am trying to solve a problem, but I'm not generalizing. I'm not trying to confront the ADHD now that I know what it is, that is, it;s symptoms and yes, we have some symptoms here. When I describe the characteristics, it's not grouping them to all people with ADHD, its those characteristics that have been identified in certain and various behavior of people with ADHD. Such as, anger, frustration, low tolerance, disorganized from not completing tasks, using electronics such as iPad more than normal, emotional inhibition, cannot regulate emotions, defensiveness; these characteristics I have read about and I am witnessing. I have issues as well, I lost my parents at 12, but I cant even share them, fix them, talk about them, talk about our marriage, our plans, loving, etc. when she is in a total fixed state of mind that is not aware of me !!! I have ben struggling with this from the beginning. My issues are sharing my feelings with the ADHD. Yes, she did NOT work the first year. She is smart, witty, and generated excellent ideas that together we are/have been building our life together. But all that's on hold right now. I mean the brakes have stopped everything. Isn't this a concern?? It doesn't really matter what happened, whatever it was was not harmful enough to cause all of this crap. It's like I've been given a life sentence for a misdemeanor. My wife cannot see reality and what's going on. I'm ignored, shut out, I got the Hand !!! I sleep on the couch...like it's no big deal. It's insane. These are signs of divorce in most marriages for a misdemeanor. It's like she's having an affair and is checked out (though I trust her). I also read that ADHD knows not, cause and effect. The effect has grown exponentially from the initial issue. This is not normal. I was in a 2 year relationship where towards the end I found that she had a major issue with binge drinking, even after some terrible situations, she still came back to the realization that something is wrong and apologized. Here, there is no end in sight. No apology, no empathy. This is not generalizing....

Exposure

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sat, 02/27/2016 - 11:37

Doug,

I think I understand what you are saying.

I believe in my marriage, there is a strong probability that my actions, regardless of intent for good, allowed our marriage communication style to continue in an unhealthy manner. My insecurities caused me to believe that all uncomfortable situations were 'all my fault.' And, my desire to protect my image of my spouse, caused me to make excuses to others for what he did.

The specifics:

making excuses when he did not attend family events
making excuses as to why he was late or forgot or didn't show up
if I noticed his anger rising, I intervened to change the subject or distract him from the situation
when he got angry at a area of conflict, I would assume I had asked too much, or was unreasonable, or was not being 'a good Christian wife,' and I backed off rather than stand my ground
I butted in a lot to protect our children from my own frustrations - an example: My spouse's time-management-by-time-blindness meant he was often - often - late. I kept a specific dinner hour, regardless if Daddy was home or not. While it probably started in a mean spirit, by the time our children got into their teens, I turned his 'tardiness without communicating it to us' into a game/joke/something-funny. A lot of the time he would call - but it would be 5-10-20-30 minutes AFTER he was supposed to have arrived. So, when the time of his anticipated arrival went by with him not showing up, we would wait for the phone to ring. As soon as it rang, we sorta all chimed in together "There's Dad", as we knew he was calling to tell us he's gonna be late. And we'd get a big chuckle out of it. This specific situation is one of those areas where we all knew he was at a job. Yes, my spouse is that kind of a man. Trust was not an issue. Period.

After a while, when I learned better skills, I quit waiting, quit making excuses, quit giving in all the time, and my usual response to "Where is Tom? or Why isn't Tom here?" would be, "You'll need to call and ask him." I am fairly certain no one ever did.

Back to the idea of exposure - my spin on our situation was that with my intervening and camouflaging and maneuvering, my spouse's anger was kept at bay. Once I started to mind my own business, his anger got exposed.

To Liz, it looked/felt/seemed like anger. In hindsight, I suspect it was frustration/fear or any of a list of other emotions that look like anger.

Today, I know his anger is his to deal with on his own or with the help of a professional. My judgment is that he has some baggage that needs to be unloaded. He carries a lot around with him - all the time. Again, that is Liz's perception. I would love to see him free and happy and unencumbered by judgments that he so heavily measures himself up against.

And yes, I can be kind, and not "Poke the Bear," however, I no longer morph myself into allowing my life to be controlled by his anger.

Sincerely,

Liz

Roles reversed

Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 09:22

What if the roles are reversed? I'm the ADHDer, but my non-ADHD wife exhibits all of the behaviors that are described . . . . .I've been told that I have caused her not to love me anymore, that I'm just a walking paycheck, and as soon as the kids are out of teh house, we're done. . . . . . .

There's a lot more backstory, but just saying that it is not always the ADHDer exhibiting unhealthy behavior towards the spouse.

Roles Reversed..

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 09:49

All I can say to your post, is that, since being married married to my ADHD wife, I can honestly say that when the temper, anger & tantrums come out, and they do in her case, and I'v never seen this before from a woman, such explosive rage, like a Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde, that in order for me to be the brunt of those attacks have done two things; made me see a side of her that is disappointing, causes resentment, disbelief, and the other thing is these outbursts, when confronted directly at me, brings the worst out of me, and I do not like it, hence the resentment. So, I don't know your situation, everyone's is different in various degree's of the same symptomal behaviors. I now that this ADHD is the pink elephant in the room, that everyone involved will not talk about. So many beautiful and intelligent people behaving in horrific ways is frightening. This type of behavior must be from something abnormal. Holding a graduate degree in psychology, I have explored and studied many of the theories and case studies that every psychology based treatment and therapy comes from, and they all work in identifying and treating abnomalties, such as; addictions, trauma, abuse, brain lesions, biological factors, all try and identify the root cause to work on providing a better understanding, medications and a better quality of life. Denial is a terrible problem. You need to examine your interactions, your behaviors as they directly related to your ADHD, do you harbor anger under the surface, how intensified is your anger, do you explode and involve your spouse, are you physical, do you curse, accuse, criticize, boss around? Look at your behavior, do you go to counseling, take medication, marriage counseling, do you deny or admit your problem? Non ADHD spouses can have their own issues as well, drugs, alcohol, gambling, abuse etc.

Roles Reversed

Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:29

Thank you, however, when I mean the roles are reversed I mean that I'm teh ADHDer, but she's the one with teh anger issues. You mention, "do you harbor anger under the surface, how intensified is your anger, do you explode and involve your spouse, are you physical, do you curse, accuse, criticize, boss around?" - SHE, the non-ADHDer is the one who exhibits these behaviors. I realize that I'm no saint and I have my own issues, but how do I deal with her stuff when it is directed at me?

Pride or Prideful? Doug

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 16:14

I thought about the word "Pride" for a moment...and realized this wasn't fitting your descriptions? To have pride or to be proud is not arrogant or having a big ego. But as defined......

Prideful

: full of pride: as

a : disdainful, haughty

b : exultant, elated

Synonyms: disdainful, haughty, imperious, lordly, overbearing, sniffy, supercilious, swaggering proudly.

Pride

: a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people

: a feeling that you are more important or better than other people (prideful)

: a feeling of happiness that you get when you or someone you know does something good, difficult, etc.

Related to pride (but different)

Synonyms

ego, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect

Without going any further with this....I do know where this comes from. As a behavior not a feeling in the way you are saying here....it is symptom or manifestation of the opposite of feeling proud which is Shame.

Being proud of yourself in a good way that shows differently than this has to do with good self esteem and feeling good about yourself. Too good in the extreme might be considered arrogant or a snob but only when it goes that far. In a more positive light....being proud of yourself and others is a good thing when it's appropriate. In respect to your wife about her mothering capabilities....it sounds like she should be proud of that but not necessarily across the board in everything. As it should be applied here to having good self esteem.....you might think this would be the case? Nothing wrong with that all things considered.

But that's not what you are talking about if I understand you correctly. Prideful or being prideful as a characteristic of behavior or personality is different. That's a response to poor self esteem and low self image and comes out just the opposite as a means to compensate for the shame you feel. If this is what you are talking about....it comes from actually having a great deal of shame underneath. At least that's where it comes from and why. It's the internal battle for your own self esteem and the by product of the battle comes out looking like just the opposite and is not really pride in the healthy sense. You'd know that too when you saw it and it would fit what you see in other ways which is exactly what you are describing does NOT fit in what you are experiencing if I understand you correctly? You can have both by the way....nothing preventing that either? (good and the bad....or...the light and the shadow)

So really...what you are seeing is shame coming out as prideful behavior (the manifestation of shame) which is a little counter intuitive but true none the less.

My new hero of all things is a woman. Surprised? Brene Browns talk about shame and vulnerability is still ringing in my ears. What she said at the end her talk hit me like nothing else as the single thing necessary to beat your wife's dragon even if she can't do this herself.....

"Empathy is the anecdote to shame. If you put shame in a Petre dish....it needs three things to grow exponentially...secrecy, silence and judgment. If you take the same amount of shame and douse it with empathy......it can't survive."

Fucking A.....she's my hero!

I felt a little guilty about one thing she said however and I'm still wrestling with the violence thing she mentioned as it relates to sports? (she didn't relate it...I did?) Does this mean I can't enjoy Boxing any more? As a sport only? lol This is still a quandary I have yet to resolve since I do really enjoy a good Boxing match and I don't feel ashamed of saying so? Mmmm...guilt or shame here? Definitely guilt! Until any unforeseen shame kicks in....I'm still going to enjoy it despite what the critics might say! lol

https://youtu.be/psN1DORYYV0

Pride..

Submitted by NonADHD on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 17:05

JJ~

You're a little too philosophical and there is no need to use profanity. I'm on here to get and perhaps give some advice, practical advice. That's it !! I'm not looking for abstract ideas or theoretical assumptions. My wife isn't shameful, she is intelligent and beautiful, she just has this thing about her that is considered a disorder. My goal is not to understand where she came from, her decisions in the past but to understand how best to work with this during times of struggle and misunderstanding. Thanks.

So Quick to Judge and Dissmisive As Well

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 19:00

Okay...You have a right to your own opinion...but so do I. I just gave you the best advise that money could buy and it was free on top of it. Did you not understand the advise or did you just dismiss it as irrelevant? So "empathy" is not practical advise calling it abstract or theoretical assumptions? Really....is that what I was saying? Could have fooled me but hey... how soon we dismiss that we don't understand?

And please...don't put words into my mouth. I did not say your wife was shameful. Or she wasn't intelligent....or she wasn't beautiful...or she didn't have a disorder....did I? I don't think I did? That all came from you...out of your head not mine. . Nice try though. It's called projection.....another one of those theoretical concepts that work without exception that you don't understand or think it's just a philosophical abstraction. No skin off my nose

But see...this is how well it works. When you put words into other peoples mouths like you did....that is all coming from the other person. Are you with me so far? Of course.....it shows you what other people are really thinking even though they are unaware of how transparent they are by doing it. Whenever someone surreptitiously accuses you of something while trying to mask it by appearing polite....while at the same time putting you down and acting in a dismissive way while sounding like you aren't ( including sarcasm and disdain hidden in their as well) without actually acknowledging or responding directly as you did ...they are actually exposing their thoughts which are what they are really thinking about themselves but not realizing this is what they are doing

It is a covert mechanism of hiding something....and this known phenomenon is capitalized on widely (and accurately) by interrogators and interviewers to expose the truth when they are not getting it up front and forth right. Putting words in other peoples mouths is a HUGE red flag for hiding something....and projecting the very thing they are accusing others of doing (or being) by their own behavior which is not just theoretical....it is practical and available to anyone who finds the time to learn how to spot it as I have.

I take the fact that you judged, ( are hiding ) and you quickly dismissed as the throwing the advise in the toilet and doing this for my benefit to show me how much you think of the advise (not mine by the way). That along with a superior attitude in thinking you have a place to tell me to use profanity or not. It's not your place to do so and I think you need to step down a notch bro. I don't take kindly to another man dismissing me with an imperious attitude...man to man that is. And it's not the kind of thing that I am not going to call you out on just so you know. Man to man.

My opinion and actual (personal philosophical thinking) since you erroneously mistook my advise as abstract philosophy......

5 Star General Norman Swartzkopf "Show me a man who doesn't swear...and I'll show you a man who's got something to hide"

And this one which is almost the identical male version of what the very thing that Brene Brown was describing......

“Son, never trust a man who doesn’t drink because he’s probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They’re the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They’re usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they’re a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can’t trust a man who’s afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It’s damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he’s heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.”

Back at ya....Bro:)

J

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 21:34

I listened to Brene Brown's clip on utube, after you posted it a day or two ago....I immediately forwarded it to all 4 of my grown children and my wife...It was profound in it's delivery and reinforced some principles that we need not lose site of.....

I ask her if she listened to it as she walked out of the bedroom door yesterday and she said she did....Then she said..." Did you? LOL...She must of liked it...Later she said it would help her more if it was in book form....I need to get it in paper for us.....Thanks again for posting it.....

Little warning for you aim high.....

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 21:01

Be careful with this...Your starting down the control, manipulation road...You're not going to change your wife that way...Not in any real way that has lasting value....

Have you apologised yourself?

Submitted by Wifelife88 on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 22:06

Oh dear - what a mess .... You say that you had a disagreement regarding your step son "which is sacred ground with my wife" - how did that disagreement end? Whilst we can all disagree with the actions and comments of others - I believe that we still need to be mindful of others feelings in the process. Even if you didn't agree with your wife or the outcome, have you apologised to her for any hurt that you may have caused her? Have you forgiven her for any hurt she may have caused you? This doesn't sound like ADHD behaviour to me. It sounds like you have deeply hurt your wife. Not talking to you for 2 months is extreme. And the longer it goes on the worse it will get. For your own well being you need to make an attempt to break the impasse. But it needs to come from a place of true love, remorse for your own contribution to the situation, and unconditional forgiveness. If you believe that it is all her fault then I don't think you will have a happy outcome. Have you had disagreements in the past? How were they resolved? Your own behavior is just as significant as hers. You cannot control your wife - only yourself. It sounds a little 'woe is me' coming from you, and it is all her wrong doing. Perhaps some self reflection as to your own contribution would be beneficial for your own development in the long term. If she won't speak with you - you could write her an apology letter. Perhaps get a friend to read it before you give it to her to check it reads as sincere.

I Hear You C

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 23:24

And taken on advisement. I don't care so much about anyone following my advise or even disagreeing with me. As you have seen me do on a number of occasions going in the other direction......I do care about someone pretending to be courteous....while being disrespectful and knowing exactly what they are doing. When you've been sand bagged by the best (my experience as you know )....it's hard to look the other way when a rookie tries to pull the very same stunt...and not very well I might add.

Ironically.....the three things that Ms Brown said about causing shame to multiply exponentially? Secrecy (hiding), judgment and silence? Mr Doug already had 2 strikes against him going in and then he finished with dismissal. That means...he's done talking (silence)

Strike three dude.....he's out'a there! I just wanted everyone to see this because it was sooooooo obvious to me. Especially as the response to the very thing that I was bringing up as good advise not to do. It shows a complete lack of empathy and a back-handed way of sounding polite but doing just the opposite and being completely dismissive in a superior way. Looking for cracks in the cement and including them in the response. No way not to notice this and not thinking it was not intentional. This is what Narcs do and I know this like the back of my hand. I'm not saying he's a Narc.....I'm just saying this is what they do.

Coming from experience that is ( the best as I said) in a not so good way. This is the very thing that Ms Brown was talking about. It may not appear so obvious to others on this forum coming from the other side....but experiencing this first hand themselves coming from the ADHD side, how would you respond to this? Thinking....not so well. I've read about ADHD husbands doing the same thing so many times here (thinking this is an ADHD thing) but it's not. I think this is so useful ( and relevant) for anyone dealing with this kind of thing in their relationships to recognize it for what it is. This was not a gracious gesture....it was a put down in disguise and it was totally disrespectful .....by design.

In this case....silence is golden. ( strike 3 ) If you had said the same thing to me that I said.....I would be responding? Think about it. I'm a stand up guy when push comes to shove and this was the time to stand up and be counted. Just say'in. I'd do the same for you ( or anyone here) if it had been the other way. But I will take what you said under advisement as I said. I said my peace. Thanks C....I think you know where I'm coming from:)

J...I guess I'm not smart enough to find the short cuts...

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 02/24/2016 - 23:51

Some times it's easy for me to get frustrated and tunnel visioned when I can see all the promise...But, that behavior modification stuff can be a slippery slope....Who's helping me manage my crap? Oh that's right I'm fine...ouch!...Just saying....That Beam and mote stuff is there for a reason....

I wish everyone on the site a wonderful marriage and much peace!

Out again..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 07/15/2016 - 17:17

Overwhelmed,

I'm out again, going on 3 weeks. My step sons dad just committed suicide just over a month ago. My step son is now with us which is awesome, talk about the Lord doing it His way. I brought something up, my wife and I had a short discussion after it happened about loving him and and focusing on him which of course is very important. I brought up us being back sleeping in the same bed and my step son in his, right now its visa versa. I said we need to get balance back in our lives to show him love from us. Well, she got defensive and it started nd she flew into a rage and threw me out. Im praying for her to come around but she is just too prideful and focused on my step son. How do I get her to realize the consequences. My step son and I are so close and he was really bonding with me and then this happens. I cant imagine what she is thinking and him for thaat matter. I don't know how toi get approach this, how to ger her attention, or just sit tight and wait. D

In my opinion, your wife

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 07/15/2016 - 20:41

In my opinion, your wife should be focused on your stepson now. And I hope you haven't used the word "awesome" out loud to describe your son living with you as a result of his dad killing himself. It might be interpreted the wrong way.

awesome..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 07/15/2016 - 20:51

No, of course not, I'm surprised you even said that, thanks for the support. I didnt really know him,and I didnt want to from what Ive heard. My response has nothing to do with his dad and what he did. Thats is not my problem, but thats my opinion and thats kept to myself. But it is awesome having him all the time where he should have been, so far he doesnt really understand. My step son also is ADHD/Dyslexia. The courts really screwed this up. Never, ever, should a child be taken from the mother....My wife may not want me there. She may want to raise him alone. I pray that wont happen because he needs a strong male in his life to have a trusting bond and relationship.

D.....One Step At A Time

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 07/16/2016 - 12:15

D....I certainly would be remiss, before giving you any advise here...without admitting making the same mistake, doing the same thing, and wanting the same thing as you in my own way due to my own frustration and impatience with something seemingly sooooo obvious and easy to see ( thinking...'what's the big deal just mentioning it and discussing it? What's wrong with that?").

D...I see it. It's that obvious to me? My own self reflection (if I were you, seeing what you see, along with that same frustration and impatience and just being fed up after a while with not being able to have a simple adult conversation about something that is soooooooooooo obviously "out of whack here"....thinking "I'm about to lose my mind over this "thing"....which seems like the "thing" that is causing most of the problems???? Why can't I just talk about this "thing" and not have it start world war III. Over what? This "thing"?????? Is this "thing" more important than me????? Obviously....it is???? What is this "thing" all about???? Why can't I mention it or talk about it????? What the big deal just talking about it???? I don't want to change it or stop it or even do anything about it???? I just want to bring it up and have even a two minute conversation just to fill me in a little to your thoughts about this????? What is the major malfunction your having here.....you are my wife after all (maybe assuming too much????) I don't know!!!! Why won't you say anything...and why can't I just say or mention...or even bring this up....over anything about it???? Over something sooooooooooo obvious?????? And something so easy to see that if it were any closer to her face....it would be in her mouth and suffocating her???? (like a booger hanging out of her nose putting it in cruder terms just to illustrate).

My big mistake (the same one your making ) which on your behalf.....none of the things I just ran through in my own self reflecting on your situation is wrong. None of it. You are completely in your right....to think it, feel it, and want these things. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Nothing. Not one thing. You are being reasonable in your request. You are being reasonable in what you want. You are (from all accounts)..;being reasonable in most of what you said about this situation you keep finding yourself in. Coming from your side of things and what you want....I would feel the same way about it as you.

Right up to the last thing you said "I said we need to get balance back in our lives to show him love from us." I'm assuming there might be some variation in what was actually said "exactly" but in context....I get what you were trying to say to her. Even if this IS exactly what you said....I still think there is nothing wrong with it. You may have said something else that is not being said her that really set her off...but for the moment....I'm speculating that what you said is not the problem. Neither was how you said it. Nether was what you wanted or want. Neither is anything that you want from your wife here as you have said it. That is....from "your wife"...as she is in those terms.

It does give you some authority in your position...speaking in terms of "husband and wife." And this is a "marriage" too. You have rights you know!!!!! God Damn it!!!!!!! My rights are being violated on all levels and I am in my rights to do what I'm doing....say what I'm saying....and I'm not doing anything wrong????

D...I agree with you. You aren't doing anything wrong and she is doing something????? And what that is....she is unwilling to talk about and she is being completely unreasonable as it appears. ( just to simply mention it and to even talk about "IT"....what ever "IT" is?????? She is being unreasonable and unwilling...that much is obvious???

Speaking only for myself ( in terms of my wife in my own words ) here D.....admitting my mistake as I see you probably making the same one yourself.

Sometimes...people know what it is and they do see it. In those crude terms again applying it to my wife. Me wanting to talk about the booger hanging from her nose is exactly the problem. She realizes shes got that booger hanging there....but she can't bring herself to wipe it away or even look at it. Something is not allowing her to look at it or even want to...and bringing it up just brings more shame to the fact....that she does know it's there. And the last thing she wants to do ever....is bring it up and talk about it.

D....I think your wife knows she's got a booger...and she ashamed of herself for having it and something is wrong and you are right. I think your only mistake is not realizing JUST how much she really does know that booger is there. Talking about it....is an extremely sensitive and delicate subject and has to be done when the time is right...and nothing else is on her mind or agenda including all the other things she's got going on.

I think you need to save the booger talk....for the end of a pretty long list of other things you may want to open with. Thinking possibly the last one on the list if I were you? At least from my own mistake....I can possibly give you that same advise too. At least consider this and see if it doesn't fit to what you've experienced in the past surrounding this subject??

Booger Analogy

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 07/16/2016 - 18:26

I like that, it made sense. Thank you for responding, I'm fighting all my feelings and emotions. I understand that my step son needs extreme care from my wife, I would expect that. But I'm so confused as to her putting me out for 3 weeks now with no contact. Why do spouses with ADHD do this? J, I understand that you have ADHD, do you do this, do you make your wife feel rejected or alone? I can handle this and longer if that is what she wishes, I did nothing wrong again except express my desire for a return of a passionate marriage. She has been distant since Christmas, and Ive been thrown our or threatened to be thrown out several times, all from her RAGE. Each time, it gets worse and worse and we never get closer. So now, this unfortunate tragedy has happened and here we are. She gave me the very quick discussion on showing love for my step son and I get that but to snap at me when I want to talk about us being closer, not sleeping in different beds, having my step son sleep in his bed and not with her, though I understand at first he should, I have no problem with that. I'm protective of them both, I love them and I'm happy they are reunited. But we are a family now, albeit, under difficult circumstances. So why throw me out, with no talk, just silence. Its hard when you have no leverage sort to speak in a situation like this. I don't know what she is going through, she will not talk to me right now, but if she decides to finally reach out then I know from experience there will e a lot for her to say. I just dont get it. Is she so focused on her son that she has tuned me out and needs me out? I know the rage is not a good thing to show her son, and I think she is blaming me for making that happen. I can forgive and let this go in a second, I dont understand why she is keeping such a distance. Thanks

NonADHD, it's horrible to be

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 07/16/2016 - 18:40

NonADHD, it's horrible to be dumped by a spouse. My (now ex) husband ditched me. I still don't understand why he found it so intolerable to keep up communication with me. When we did talk, he would often say to me, "You're the only one I talk to" or "You're the only person who is interested in talking to me about this." Did he hate admitting that I provided something useful? I don't know. It was very hurtful (and continues to be, even though we're now divorced).

Not dumped..

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 07/16/2016 - 18:55

HI Rosered,

I dont consider myself dumped, its not about me, I think it is the overwhelming situation and, as before, we never really got things ironed out. We need to be careful to let anger, arguments and things linger on, because you never know what God has coming in your direction. We never worked to get things on track, we kept going back and forth and then, BAM !! This happened. So, she asking me know to be more responsible, she continues the insults and criticism. My mistake, I used our situation to try and get her to open up, it didnt work. As far as your husband, he may want you back. You should to Restored Marriages, if you dont quit, you never know what can happen. I'm not giving up on my wife, I'm committed and I she is as well. But with ADHD and all the stress I guess she had a breakdown. I need to learn to let things calm down and give her a chance to breathe, but my desire to get things right in my mind, was the wrong perception of what I thought.

My ex didn't think he had

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 07/16/2016 - 19:11

My ex didn't think he had dumped me, but I think stopping communication is the functional equivalent. I'm glad that you realize that this has more to do with your wife than with you. But even though it might not be about you, it sure does affect you. I think a relationship can't survive without communication, no matter what's causing the problem.

I Don't Know Either?

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 07/16/2016 - 22:38

And no, I don't throw my wife out and or not talk to her about things. And I pretty much don't hold grudges any more than in minutes(or possibly a couple of hours) but not hours and hours...let alone days or weeks on end?? My problem, is talking too much.lol But my wife shuts down and won't talk too which is why I'm here for the most part?? I don't understand not wanting to discuss things since this is not the way I normally go about anything. I really don't have answer for you since I'm not this way...at all!!! LOL

And just so you know (so I'm not being vague)...specifically.....I don't understand (at all) having your step son sleep with her.( at his age..or any other if I think about it??) I mean....at all??? I don't understand this??? I couldn't even make a guess on that one but it can't be good for your step son. That part I don't have to guess about.

This thread sure got off track

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 01:10

I am alarmed at the direction this thread has taken. Aimhigh3321 has only been here 3 weeks and 1 day. I certainly can fathom where his concerns are coming from. A bit more latitude would be nice to see.

Liz

Thanks Liz...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 10:13

Liz,

I agree, getting off track here. We come here with issues to share that I assume the ADHD may help cause, escalate, etc. and compounds issues within our marriages. We seek advice, or what others are experiencing. ADHD is a known cogntive disorder that is listed in the DSM V, the psychologists/therapists manual on disorders. This is huge when you are a non-ADHD spouse and, like me, you see the symptom but you have no idea of the magnitude it can create in your marriage. Anger, communication, disorganization are just a few that my wife has. Now, I'm living in and smack dab in the center of a major issue and I need answers from this forum. There are many who are experieneing extreme conditions and we are just regular people trying to figure it out. So I come here to see if anyone has gone though something that can possibly give me some ideas to try and work out. If they don't work, then I keep searching. Example, I have worked on me, focused on me, since this is sound advice that comes from many different people; such in this forum, friends, faith and family. Next, I have worked on talking, apologizing, doing some nice things that my wife has noticed, love her son with all my heart, go to bible study, church, men's conference, etc..none have penetrated my wife's fixed gaze on remaining silent and distant. I'm not kidding here. My resentment is growing, I'm literally pissed off at her, enough is enough. But this is something way beyond me and very scary to deal with. So, I don't need the insults about 3 strikes and I'm out, or whatever and I sure don't care about the over analysis of where I'm coming from. I just want to talk to someone who is a non ADHD spouse who has gone, or is going through some true major, marriage threatening behavior. My marriage, my sanity is in trouble here, I don't need any lectures or jabs, take it somewhere else. Liz, thank you for your advice. I do need to get my wife to stop her uncaring behavior. You have no idea what it feels like to sit in another room as your wife watched tv without one word said for days, weeks.....its literally torture. For the record, I'm the one who has tried to make peace, cards, flowers, I love you, change etc...etc...nothing right now...she's numb !!!!! Please, only those who have something to share reply, or start you're own thread.

Doug, wishing you well.

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 12:07

Doug, wishing you well.

Again to folks: there are some particular challenges for people without ADHD or ADD if their partner has it, in the early part of the relationship, and if the non-ADHDer had no prior experience of a relationship that had ADHD in it. Very many of the partners of partners with ADHD went through this phase at the beginning of the relation, whether the partner's ADHD was at that point diagnosed or not. But it may have been 5 years, 15 years, 20 years ago.

Doug's in the early phase, not in the 15 years later phase, and is in the situation of a spouse having shut down communication with him about herself.

In my opinion, none of us can see inside of her.

From being in a relation at about the same chronological spot, but with a spouse who is not doing with me what Doug's wife is, here are some kinds of early-on problems that need good response to, because the new marriage is in that early stage when the couple are shaping their relational habits

1) What to expect, how to relate, and how to take care of oneself emotionally when that post-courtship hyperfocus on either me or the early relationship ends? It does end. It comes as a tremendous shock to people who don't have ADHD.

Statistically, ADHD affects a minority of the population. Most dating relationships don't include a partner with ADHD.

So if a new spouse has never dealt with ADHD before in a relation, and that's about where Doug and I are, this ending of hyperfocus is truly shocking, because what comes after it has never been seen before by the non ADHD partner who is an ADHD novice. I have an online acquaintance who now, years later, though remained loyal to the relation, is still badly shocked and, I'm guessing from what I've read, is still grieving the tremendous relational gearshift that happens when the relation partner's focus shifted, behaviors changed...and never came back. The majority of the population doesn't go through this, in relations, whatever else goes on in their relations

2) What's ADHD-generated (directly), what is the ADHD partner's poor coping with him or herself, or with relating, and what is a true personality conflict between the spouses. This is NOT clear. And in my opinion the literature on and offline about ADHD really neglects giving help in these matters, likely because if you meet one person with ADHD, you meet that one person with ADHD, you're not meeting all of ADHD. I can tell you that this 2) really, really, really (expletived) me and gave me a lot of pain...my inability to know what the was going on when he did or said something, and my pain didn't subside until I began to sort these things, out, at least partially. I knew he wasn't cruel, although some of the things done would be seen as intentionally cruel, in non ADHD relations; I knew, because, alas, I've lived long enough to have dealt with real Narcissism in my past relations, that he was self focused but not a Narcissist...Melissa Orlov's recent blog entry about this is a good place to start; but I didn't know what was driving a lot that happened at home. Some of what he did hurt me. It hurt! I grieved. I don't use that word lightly.

Living with someone's ADHD, for 15 years, gives at least a pattern of behavior that repeats frequently enough that you can learn....here it comes again....or recognize....well I did that, and it didn't do either of us any good, I had better not try that one with him/her again. But at the beginning of the relation, the novice partner of someone with ADHD cannot predict pattern. There isn't pattern yet! There hasn't been enough time for pattern, or even to see whether something that one does, or one's partner does has a predictable ending. Such as how long this moratorium on communicating about herself will end, and what will it take for the silence to end. No clue, because it's the FIRST time it happened. Doug has asked his questions, in that situation.

3) How to handle one's own moral, emotional and spiritual needs in a relation in which a partner does not communicate the same way, pay attention the same way, remember the same way, and in some cases act the same way, as other people with whom one has had past relations. One can respond to what I just wrote with the generalization that every relation is different Of course that's true, but that's not dealing with the issue of being a novice at being around ADHD, now into an intimate relation for the first time with someone with ADHD. I can tell you, if one is such a novice at this kind of situation, one shouldn't be faulted for "not knowing". It is a very, very big deal, to be surprised by having to look down the gunbarrel of potential deep loneliness in relation, not knowing whether or not one has signed up for that in marrying out of faith, hope and love, then discovering that in the at home interaction there are large relationship parts that one will need to accept, including accept what one can realistically hope for oneself. Will my partner take care of me? Does he still love me? Was he showing a false front before the marriage? If so, who is he?

I'm not by this suggesting that all these questions were in my mind when I hit this shock of discovery of ADHD post hyperfocus, because it had been, oh, I don't know, a non-cohabitation situation, before marriage, or my future husband and I were in the high of early dating. But non ADHD new partners when they run into brand new to the relation behaviors, do have to deal with questions this big.

: )

I want to do a shout-out to all of you.

I've been and am in various places online regularly, about the same place chronologically as Doug in a relation, thankfully not going through what he's going through, which would BREAK MY HEART if I were, and I, too would be in pain, wondering where the relationship of the past went, and what to do about that wall of silence between myself and the partner I loved.

I started reading like a vaccuum cleaner when it started to dawn that there was ADHD in the mix. And talk with my partner....carefully. And tried personal counseling, to get help with my expectations and self management, twice, and both of the attempts at that were a bust, for reasons that other people talk about when they express frustration at counseling.

Shout out to you, This group, on Melissa's site has given me a great deal. My husband in very many ways is his own person, so a lot I read doesn't apply, but when there IS a match: I see I act like that, my husband acts like that, it gives me great food for thought. Speaking just for myself, I never try to use someone else's technique in my relation. Whatever I do has to be taking full account of me, and my husband. As WE are. But sometimes I try something like it that's my best shot at fitted ot us, or thinking about what someone else does is the spark that gets me thinking, well if not, then how would yu do something different than what you've done!

So thank you, you all, for telling the truth about your lives, the part of it you want to describe online. It's your truthtelling about what you're going through, what you've tried, what you don't know, what you think and feel, that has helped me. Thank you

....I'll say again that one of the hardest things I've had to tackle so far offline is sorting what is directly ADHD generated words or behavior, from what is coming from somewhere else. One extremely hard thing that novices at this have to deal with, is to sort ADHD generated behavior from...if it's in thta relation....comorbids. ADHD in a couple has its own challenges. If there are also comorbids: substance addiction, addiction to porn, narcissism, psychosis, the amount of sorting and decision making that a novice has to go through is very much higher.

Now...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 12:28

Now,

That was awesome, thank you. You nailed it ! I need the reality of this. This is new to me, I am not just shocked, I'm stunned and yes, I don't know the patterns or the symptoms. In the beginning, not more than 2 years ago, it was a love from Heaven, wow, it was what I have always dreamed to have and could never find. Now, our wonderful intimacy has just evaporated before my eyes and as a man, I can't get it back, I have no control over this. I'm stunned because there are so many ADHD residuals that are starting to pop up; no intimacy, no touch, no communication, no verbiage, no compliments, no dinners, no hugs, NOTHING !! My beautiful wife that I am so attracted to has left the building, there is a body here, but no one is home. This is frightening. I'm scrambling to anyone who can give me advice, I'm praying and believing like never before. This is rejection at it's most cruelest point. My erotic fantasies with my wife are gone. What was warmth through our love has turned cold as ice. Is this ADHD???? Now, you said in your post that behaviors and change and "it never comes back" ???? That's frightening, it's unfair and I'm not equipped to do this. She must come back, and I will do whatever I can do bring her back bit if this never comes back, well then, wow. If my wife is experiencing what JJ is talking about, then I'm not sure at what junction of her past she is living right now, it's not here and now.

Now, you said in your post

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 16:13

Now, you said in your post that behaviors and change and "it never comes back"

That story was about ofsomeone else I knew who was having a long hard time because there had been such a big shift after hyperfocus and as far as I can read, things had never gotten back to the hyperfocus state.

My husband and I are post that first hyperfocus, pretty clearly, but the relation far from ended after it, and we express affection and have it.

I do think it affected our interactions with each other for the better when I started insisting on doing things for my well being that I had let slide. But we have a lot to go. Baseball games aren't won or lost in the first inning.

Now...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 16:19

Hi,

I thought it was about someone you knew but it really scared me to think it never got better, I'm sorry for them. I just don't want that to happen. My wife and I do have affection, we have chemIstry, I can feel and I know it. Its just something happened and she has gone into a "new" place that I hve never seen before and it's away from me. I'm communication in non verbal ways, so I know I have her attention but still, not to talk, touch, laugh etc...for so long is rather frightening. I grew up in an Italian home in New Jersey with three older brothers and believe me, we can argue, but to go silent for so long with your spouse is just uncomprehensible and I'm trying to deal with it. I guess my insecurities are showing and as JJ mentioned, I m vulnerable.

I have hesitated to comment

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 12:14

I have hesitated to comment on this thread because it was so painful for me. My husband and I live apart and he is notorious for not communicating with me. But the last three weeks were worse than usual. He did not respond to emails, text messages, or phone calls, including several in which I said things such as, "Hi. I'm very concerned about you. Can you give me a call?" and "R u alive?" When he does communicate with me, he tells me how depressed he is, that he hates his dad (he lives with his parents and is their caregiver), and that I'm the only one who expresses concern about him. We are going through a divorce but I've kept my tone even and nonacrimonious. By yesterday morning, I was having a panic attack in which I imagined that my husband had killed himself or was going to. Finally, last night, he called. He is still depressed, but not suicidal. Nothing unusual is going on. It was just a three-week occasion for me to be the target of his self-pity. Yuck. I feel for you very much.

Rosered...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 13:22

Hi,

Sorry to hear that but glad you replied. I think it must be extremely hard for your husband being back home with all those reminders of childhood. It's got to wreck havoc on him. Just stay on it and get him out of there !!

Rose, I wish you well. I've

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 16:56

Rose, I wish you well. I've read your postings, and know it has been very hard. You're worth much more happiness and peace of mind than you have right now. If you're going through a divorce, how much longer will that process be? About his playing with your feelings, Yuck is right.

LOL on me...I was in a relation once in which the guy was constantly bringing drama, or swearing he was on the brink of disaster, or being emotionally distraught....he was a real pro at it. He was always about to have something happen to him. :) I learned not to accept it if he volunteered to change light bulbs for me....he'd just get up on that ladder and sway and nearly fall off or fall off! :D . I can laugh because it is long enough in my past and I've done my time over it.

And the thing is, some of it he created himself....the debt collectors knocked on his door because, well, he hadn't been paying his bills because he was too much of a King Baby to pay his bills. Or there was a really dramatic time in which an old girlfriend (sez he) showed up at his place, tried to scratch his eyes out (he said), he (he said) lost his balance and touched her arm, she whipped out her cell and called the police on him and he called the police on her, and I ended up with a cop in my kitchen to which he was filing his complaint because LOL she had her cops circling his house...and she got a couple male relatives lurking around looking for him too. I'm pulling that one out of the memory bin because it was so ridiculous. He did these "I'm going to die...." "she's after me" "I have not a cent in my poor empty pockets" "drop everything, I'm staggering, catch me" ALL the time. The relation didn't last much after that cop that he called ended up in MY kitchen over his story that had so many HOLES in it that it was swiss cheese. Was that an OLD girl friend??

I'm maybe telling dumb stories on me because I hope that the divorce, if you know that's what you need, and are going through it, will be the beginning of some distance from a man who tries to play so many games with someone who hopes he's all right. I wanted to box his ears and tell him "look bud, whatever your troubles are, there are consequences for messing around with people and don't mess around with her" Having been played emotionally like a bagpipe for awhile, I don't want you to have to go through it. I had a flicker of worry that he'd just keep calling you like he is now, after the divorce.... I hope you get a break just now from worry, and I hope that you can work out more emotional detachment from someone who sure sounds like he's playing with your care for him.

OK, I'll wind down...this may not be what you're dealing with, and if so, put it in the throwaway pile, but if your husband has in addition to ADHD, clinical grade narcissism, statistically you don't have to worry about suicide. There's always exceptions to everything but on the whole, Narcissists don't commit suicide, says the literature. They deflate like crazy, like balloons without air, if their supply that keeps them high disappears, and can be hollow eyed, with bits of straw sticking in their uncombed hair, and can play hard to get that supply source reconnected to them and pumping their supply again, but they don't die for the lack of what they have been monkeying around with people to get. They go find someone else sympathetic.

That's narcissism, not ADHD

I Agree Liz

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 11:23

Nothing more needs to be said on the method.....but putting this discussion back on line and picking up where it left off and without adding any more to what has already been said......I believe that shame or being shamed is at the core for much of the behavior you see with many people with ADHD. What was confirming to me was listening to Melissa speak about this very thing in her book and in the seminar class that we are taking. It is not easy to describe this since it's one of those things that either you know the experience or you don't I suppose.

Saying this another way.....it is very much like a form of racial prejudice in one respect. That or being gay I suppose in respect to sexual orientation. Remembering back to a moment in my T's office where he described his experience seeing a number of gay clients coming into his office for help with some really troubling issues including attempted suicide. As he put it......if it were not from the treatment and prejudice against gay men and women and being socially ostracized all there life and labeled as sinners who will burn in hell by some.....or simply by just being themselves and finding themselves being singled out or even beaten for no reason other than being born a certain way (race, sexual orientation or whatever else)....they wouldn't be coming to him for help because the single reason they are there is for that reason alone. Without the shame they carry with them on a daily basis from the prejudice and experiencing this kind of hatred or treatment from others in their life....they wouldn't be in need of his services and wouldn't have the problems (psychologically) that they have without it.

Different....but not so different in many ways.....having ADHD singles you out and shines a light on you that causes a similar reaction from other people that is not as subtle as you might think. Not knowing what it is called or why people respond the way the do (until later in life or until you get diagnosed or understand the effect this has on other people at times)....over the course of time....you begin to notice in some subtle or not so subtle ways that people are treating you differently than you see others being treated and don't understand why.

Bear with me on that note here speaking only for myself now. What I am describing is about the distant past here for me. My feelings are no longer at stake in the same way they use to be. I have come to understand this all and it doesn't have this effect on me anymore. I am able to place myself into the proper perspective all things considered and understand this in a real way that transfers directly to my relationship with my wife. This is literally at the core of either being the way I use to be and all the repercussions this had for other people who are in my life.....or .....not allowing this to affect me the way it did and therefore....doing things to insure that those repercussions do not come into play and don't have such a negative impact on others. It has taken a great deal to get here in all respects but that is not really relevant to what I am trying to say. No one owes me anything for the work that I had to do. I don't feel persecuted or singled out and don't feel the shame that caused this effect on me anymore. I can put my ADHD symptoms in their proper place and see them for what they are and know this is not anyones else's responsibility to have to either deal with or feel like they have no right to be annoyed or irritated if something related causes them distress. Being here on this forum would not be happening in the first place if that were not the case for me now. Instead of feeling ashamed (which I don't)....I feel responsible and feel it's my duty to others to do what I can to minimize the impact this has on other people. This is 100%....my responsibility and in respect to how well I do this or not. If I fail at managing something along these lines.....I don't expect other people to give me a blank pass and not have a negative reaction.

But going back to what I was saying about the similarities or correlation to racial or sexual prejudice either by gender or by orientation.....the most surprising thing that I discovered after being diagnosed with ADHD that I learned a real lesson in very quickly that I did not foresee coming.....and that had to do with this very thing in a way that really opened my eyes (for the first time) to an aspect of human nature that really drove this home for me in a disturbing and almost frightening way.

At first I myself was relieved by finding out about my ADHD. I didn't feel ashamed at all. More like relieved to finally have an answer that explained this all too me and I was actually elated to make this discovery. By that time....my self esteem was fairly solid and this didn't have a huge effect on how I felt about myself in a negative way at all. If anything....I was even more optimistic and feeling better not worse than before. Shame in that respect....was not a sensitive area and was not dependent on anything that anyone else would say either good or bad.

In other words....no one had the ability to shame me unless I allowed it to effect me that way. I had long since stopped feeling ashamed of myself for any reason that was not directly tied to something that I did or didn't do and not unless what I did warranted it and I could see a reason for it in a legitimate way. Assuming here for a minute that I can see myself well enough to see these moments well enough to know they exist.....that is....not looking away from them but actively looking for them to help me manage the impact they might have on others.

And being that I am not gay, am a man, am white and for no other reason outside of just ADHD....I seem to fit the mold that society has designed for me and have no other reason to feel this kind of stereotyping or prejudice for any other reason. To the point....that outside any close intimate personal relationships and just functioning normally as I should....for the most part.....if I didn't tell someone I had ADHD and was in more causal circles or acquaintances like at work or in general....no one would ever know I have it aside from my closest friends and relationships and my ability to manage my symptoms well enough (by choice in most situations) where no would even guess or have any other reason to suspect it at all.( saying for me in this case....not trying to apply my experience to anyone else here)

The main reason for this came from the shame that I experienced in my past growing up....but I had found ways to either hide it or manage it well enough for exactly this very reason. So no one would suspect or know any different in most cases in the general public and I could fit in most anywhere without being suspect outside of possibly a few mild eccentricities one might consider as personality quirks. To the point.....even in an endearing way due to some of these features actually being seen as funny or enjoyably different in a more positive light.

But underneath it all at the core.....it started out as be shame.....from being shamed and told you should be ashamed of yourself for being who you are.

So now fast forward from the past to when I found out I had ADHD. It never occured to me in a second that people I had known for many years would think anything differently about me if I told them I had ADHD but I was very wrong in making that assumtion. To the point.....I noticed a distinct and noticable difference that probably only I could see in the subtle changes that I began to notice and how even my own family members began to treat me subtly differently. I hadn't changed a bit other than to just tell them that I had it. What changed was an sense of entitlement now ( compared to the past) in the things that people would say to me and how they would say it. Where before.....these things were chalked up to personality quirks.....now, these things were seen and being expressed as something to be ashamed of.

Again....not by me.....but by others seeing the same thing they had seen for many years.....but now coming from the attitude that says....." I now have a reason or justification to shame you since I now have the ammunition to do it and discredit you for the things that I don't like. Saying this another way.....you now have a label the same as Gay, Black or any other group that is stereotyped and there is prejudice against for no other reason that they are different. Telling people I knew that I had ADHD gave them the label and along with it.....the prejudice or bias that you cannot ignore. That's how obvious it was and this is an experience even I had no experience with before. It was most disturbing and the effect this had on me was to made me very angry indeed. I trusted that people I didn't know intimately would not do this and not see me any differently than before....but in hindsight in retrospect....this was very naive on my part to believe.

In a very real way....the label and the stigma that had no effect on me and how I saw myself....was the only difference either knowing...or not knowing...in how people treated me and the subtle (and not so subtle) differences that became very apparent to me after I did this. It was not based on me, my behavior or anything that I did differently aside from the label itself and the category it now placed me in where I was not before. And the difference in how people treated me had everything to do with guilt or shame.

Before.....people would attempt or use quilting as there means to speak their displeasure in the things I had done in the past. After.....I noticed that people attempted to shame me or make me feel ashamed of the the very same behaviors and this is not something that you do not notice. I'm saying....I noticed this change in other people but they did not notice themselves doing it. It seemed so out of place and strange that at first i didn't even realize it. Since I was not feeling shame which in respect to these things I am talking about.....shame was not the appropriate feeling. A sense of responsibility or even a little guilty was the appropriate feeling which is exactly what I did feel. Not until I figured out what had happened and why this seemed so strange....was when I realized that "hey...WTF....this person is trying to shame me not make me feel guilty. In other words....you are now considered officially socially unacceptable and you need to be shamed for it....it's my duty to society to shame you and put you into your place.....

"Anything you have to say to the contrary or in protest to this is not justified or credible anymore. Before we knew this....we had not basis to feel this way...bu now things have changed. You deserve to be shamed and I am fully in my right to do so. At will when ever I see necessary." In this hypnotically quote to show this possible way of thinking......people don't say this out loud or even realize that this is coming from them....but none the less....on the receiving end of it....they might as well just say it up front and be honest about how they really feel. It's that noticeable and that obvious.

In respect to the parent child dynamic that is a common one between husband and wife.....a new dynamic suddenly appears out of no where from a stigma or societal aspect that has to do with shaming or being shamed that there is just no way to look away from or not notice even if it has no effect on you or your self esteem. There is only one emotion that you feel under these circumstances and that is anger out of being disrespected and it the appropriate emotion that anyone experiencing this from the inside would feel.

It's same as you would if you were born an ethnicity or of sexual orientation that places the same kind of stigma on you as an individual for no justifiable reason other than ignorance, hatred and divisiveness that everyone can understand in terms of the groups and treatment that is completely unacceptable in our society as it stands.

But yet....it still exists and we all know it does even if we think it's wrong. I can't be honest with myself and say this doesn't exist in me due to the changes that have taken place in the past up to this time and place. I feel differently about a lot of things that I use to believe and now have changed how I feel about them. But to say that the old thinking does not exist somewhere lurking within me and it doesn't come out even under my own radar would be a foolish assertion to make on my part.

But can tell you....this was not only noticeable....there was no way not too. It was like going to sleep one night with one skin color..and waking up in the morning with another one that immediately places you into a completely different category and the only difference was simply telling people you have ADHD and nothing else.

So this is where shame comes into having ADHD and the reason why this is so relevant to this discussion. This is not some extremely complicated theory or psychological concept to understand. It has to do with shaming, prejudice, bias and individual perceptions that are unfounded and are not justifiable. In this one area that I experienced first hand for the first time ever.....I suddenly found myself knowing what it must be like to be born in a category where for no other reason other than ignorance (gay, black, brown etc..) that people feel free to treat you differently from only a label and for no other reason.

However.....as much as I (or anyone) has no control over how other people think or feel or treat you in a general way (like anyone)....when it comes to this one aspect and knowing this first hand.....there comes a time to stand up and call people out only as needed and shine a light on this specific behavior....not only out of the respect you have for yourself.....but because it's wrong and you know it without question. And because you know it's wrong even if other people don't realize that they do it.....it doesn't release them from taking responsibility for it and drawing a line or boundary and calling foul when it's appropriate.

In other words....they should be ashamed not you and doing it in a way to lesson it's blow is exactly what you should not do. When shaming is appropriate by the person trying using it for the very reason it exists (again when it's appropriate).....being nice about it only lessens it's impact and diminishes your resolve. You are only hurting yourself by lessoning any guilt you have for being the bad guy but perpetuating the very thing that you have a every right to speak out against. In respect to this....you are only betraying yourself by not speaking out against what you clearly now is wrong. This comes from having self respect and good self esteem....not the only way around. When your self esteem is tenuous....all you can do is try and hide it and cover it up by acting in ways that comes out as the very thing behaviors that were being discussed in this thread. Which is the only reason for me to even bring this topic up in the first place.

So when the response you get from offering this valuable bit of insight in an effort to alleviate (in this case Dougs) suffering....for his benefit directly not even necessarily his wife's in this case....contains all the elements of shaming (shunning ...what ever) and done in a dismissive way.....in this case....the material or topic I was trying to interject into what looks like Pride (as being discussed) came back to me the same way it came out......as a form of disrespect and protest for doing the very thing ( the belief or thinking) that is creating the problem in the first place. Anger is the appropriate response to being disrespected and the only thing that could be argued here is in the way I expressed it. The feelings of shame or attempts to shame others covertly is one of the most damaging and underhanded thing one person can do to another human being.

So Liz.....honestly......this is where I truly would like your thoughts in reference to your comment about latitude. Are there no hard lines as I am saying here and a time and a place for everything? Honestly....the time someone has been here or even his concerns which I clearly saw from the outset before I made the comment (for his benefit not mine and not really caring what he did with the information).....when a line like this has been crossed in way that is the very root of most the things that are causing so many issues being discussed here......when is the time to stand up and speak out and when is the time not too? Do these contingencies that you mentioned release a person from an offense and do these things really come into play when you are speaking about using shame to dismiss someone instead of speaking openly and not using that as a weapon against them in the way I perceived it. In other words.....if the material or topic was spoken from the opposite side of the fence.....the response and reaction would not be dismissive and would not contain shunning or shame within the same response for the same material if made by a different person due to only one factor or variable? Your thoughts or insight into this would be greatly appreciated.

JJ....Now I see

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 12:06

JJ,

I wanted to reply even though your post is directed at Liz. I hope you don't mind. I really appreciate your candor, after reading your post, I can see the one major issue of having and living with ADHD. In reading, I read anger and a sort of anti-social stance. ADHD is a label that you have to live with, like it's another minority group. Being a minority has it's difficulties as society attacks it through micro-aggressions such as fear, bias and prejudice etc. Martin Luther King Jr. didn't make excuses about his color/race when confronted by the most horrific circumstances and prejudice you and I will never know. He didn't fight back, he used non-aggression, educated his detractors and brought considerable respect to himself and his race. ADHD shouldn't be fighting back at those you love. But I guess from all the anger, confusion, attacks that those with it have and had to live with creates a sense of defensiveness. Being diagnosed not only helps those who have it but it should help those that don't have it and help them live in harmony. I know through her denial that my wife feels in some ways, the same as you. She is always on the defensive, private and isolated. Yes, she has a wonderful heart and is caring and loving when the defenses are down. There seems to be two sides to this ADHD, the defensive and attack mode and the loving and caring mode. Hey, we are all labeled in some way. I lost both parents at 12 and it may have caused some deep seeded issues, believe me, my wife has thrown them at me as well, but I don't take it out on her and I don't stay mad and away forever. I did when I was a child, an adolescent struggling to see where I fit in. I never used it as a weapon to strike back. I learned to control my anger and use my focus on other things. Psychoanalysis is the theory in psychology that ties current issues with past conflicts and in order to cure the current issue, the past must come up. That means past feelings that are stored away must be resurfaced and brought out in the open to let it go. From my experience as a non-ADHD spouse, I see the past feelings flooding back all the time in these outbursts. I see the past being help onto with a firm grip and the excuse that these outbursts and destructive behavior is acceptable. In ADHD is the anger remaining. But my questions is, why treat those who love you badly. Why take it out on us? No one is perfect, I tell my wife that when we are in the middle of an argument. I know it must have been to your benefit before diagnosis because it brought panic and fear to those exposed to it and after diagnosis it took away your power over others. ADHD is not an animal in the zoo, it's a cognitive, biological impairment that can be treated and controlled. Non ADHD spouse's such as myself don't care what you have, we support you and love, just don't take it out on us when the past comes back. I know that my wife is experiencing something that happened in her past, probably regarding her ex's and now, its me that's the subject to the ADHD symptoms. I don't blame her, I love her, I just want her to snap out of this grip and come back. I probably am representing society to her and she has gone deep into her rabbit hole to hide. What she fails to realize is that I'm on her side.

Greatly Appreciated Doug

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 15:56

And in all honesty....I was hoping you would respond....and actually hoping that you would prove me wrong. Too the point....almost (if not actually) provoking you too respond and hoping you would. I think there is some truth within that last sentence that might give you some more insight into this to apply to your wife. First...let me say one thing to be clear. I was not angry at you the person (without any judgement in that respect) but angry at what I described and the problems and frustrations I've had in trying to do this very thing with my wife. In fairness to you....I'm not seeing this from an us and them kind of way. In a sense....the same way you see happening with minorities who fall into the same trap in their own thinking. They have a legitimate right to feel the way they do....but just because it's legitimate....doesn't mean that they should. In respect to that....they're only hurting themselves by perpetuating it and carrying it forward. It's serves no use to fight against a belief that is not a person place or thing by doing it on a personal level one person at a time.

Your example of Martin Luther King is a good one and shows us how this fight was done in a way that was effective and did this another way. So based on what I just said....to a much lessor degree.....I was holding you responsible for what others have done and putting myself right into that same trap and doing this to myself. This is the very thing that is causing me to be frustrated coming from the other side of things.

The big caveat here for everyone if you stop and think about this....is when you are forced to pick a side to be on.....but not everyone does this and not everyone feels this way on either side. In the examples I gave.....only a small handful of people that I was thinking about did this while others did not do this at all. As soon as you place the sins of one person and extend that outward to include everyone....you're going to see the boogy man around every corner when in reality....he really never existed aside for only a very few.

This is where becoming vulnerable has everything to do with this. Using the boogy man reference.....who's safe and who isn't. Out of everyone you know who isn't this way....you don't really know who is? This is the fear that comes into play and that fear is the thing that prevents you from becoming vulnerable. And if you can't be vulnerable in fear that you will get hurt.....you close yourself off from the possibility of being hurt....but at the same time closing yourself off to all the good possibilities as well.

The bottom line is.....you close yourself off period when that happens and you are always looking for the boogy man instead of looking for those who aren't. If that makes sense. And in respect to you and your wife....her radar is set to detect the first sign of the boogy man in you. As soon as she catches a wiff of it in you.......now you become that boogy man. It goes global instead of staying right where it should be and only limited to just one part of the whole of the person standing in front of you....possibly, just seeing it as something that she needs to address with that is causing her to react with so much intensity.

The same as ADHD is just an annoying feature you have in respect to others....the tendency, that I think sounds almost predictable is to see yourself (in a global sense) as a failed human being or a person who is tainted or unlovable because it. Seeing it through this reality as you are saying it.....you're on her side and not taking sides at all. Seeing it from that perspective.....she's the one choosing sides not you.....you're not seeing it that way at all as you said it. I totally get this and am seeing this now as being contagious.

To the point....if you are always pushed into an adversarial position all the time....pretty soon, instead of fighting against this adversarial position that you don't want to be in.....the tendency is to join the other person in doing the very same thing they're doing. When you start expecting it and predicting it from that perspective.....now every person you see who has ADHD know starts becoming your wife from your own experience with her. It gets transferred onto anyone who has ADHD the same as people with ADHD start transferring their past experiences onto you.

So in complete respect to you in all fairness here.....you walked into it and I intentionally chose to call you out but at the same time....chose to do it with an audience of people witnessing it that had less to do with me or my own personal feelings.......but hoping for the benefit of everyone here and not just to chastise you personally. In setting off an alarm here.....the hope I have is to bring attention to this in way that might make everyone stop and think about this for a minute. The only reason I have to say anything here is to not do what I did in respect to you. By taking a position on the side of people with ADHD in a defensive posture.....this is the very thing that all of you on the other side are fighting up against and you don't want in your lives. It is....in it's very essence......the worst thing that we can do with you and the very thing you want to be gone out of your relationship and is causing you all the problems you are running into. These symptoms themselves are not the problem here. As annoying as the are to you in every respect.....it's the emotional turmoil and conflict that is really the problem in your relationship. If that were gone completely....you might not see the symptoms themselves ( the logistical ones ) as being nearly as bad.

Given the choice here between having both (the emotional and the physical logistical functional problems together) or only having to pick one or the other but having to pick one......I'm guessing the logistical ones since they're the ones you really do have some say and control in the most and doing something about it. Even things like finances coming from your end of it (not sure if you have those) but in respect to a person who has spending issues....you have a right to say this is a problem and the other person is not going to have much to say about that once it's put in front of their face. Reasonable solutions and compromises can be made there unless the person really has such a problem with this that they are simply out of control and trying to hide it like an addiction in that sense.

But that doesn't sound quite as common for everyone with ADHD. I for one....have manged money and spending most of my life without too many issues aside from just agreeing on how to spend money which is not exclusively and ADHD phenomenon?( picturing Jane (his wife)...snatching the wad of bills out of George Jetson's wallet to go shopping in the cartoon series. Funny thing....I saw that intro again not too long ago and they edited that part out now when they show that scene at this time. Understandably and unfavorable stereotype lol) So the part that is really the root cause of all the suffering and pain mostly is caused from the emotional and relational problems that exist not only from the symptoms that are a source of many issues revolving around ADHD.

So for the sake of argument here....lets assume you choose to ignore the logistical aspects here for a moment and focus entirely on the emotional ones to make this easier to talk about barring everything else here for a moment. If the worst things that your wife does to cause you real emotional hurt and pain which is coming from this adversarial relationship she is having within herself and extending outwardly towards you as you are very clearly describing here. These are the things in a perfect world you would wish to completely stop. They're the things that are getting in the way of having a loving close connection with you and without them....these issues you have with her would not be there as you said. You love her and you want to be with her but without these things that are causing you distress personally. You aren't fighting her in that respect....your fighting her demons inside her. They're the same ones you're fighting as well....not really her if you stand back and look at it from that perspective.

So if that's the case.....the demons she is fighting deep inside her are fear and shame. In this case.....fighting fire with fire is the worst thing you can possibly do even though it might seem like you have every legitimate reason to do this which in every respect....you do. But like the ethnic groups who fall into the same trap I was talking about and are their own worst enemy sometimes. Doing what you think will work and doing it by fighting fire with fire is the only mistake your making. As I picked up on the way your responded to me pointing out very clearly all the things that were upsetting to me....that dismissive or possibly indifference that I flavored your comment...... thinking here, is probably coming across the same way as I experienced it (for the exact same reasons) as your wife does but she's not able to say it too you in that way due to all the denial and defensiveness she has built up around her to protect her slef. From what? The boogy man. She can't feel safe enough to allow herself to become vulnerable as long as the boogy man lives in the same house with her. She's afraid of what might happen if she does and she believes for whatever reason that right now...she doesn't feel safe and secure enough inside to be able to do this. If that makes sense? So if that's the case....how do you make her feel safe enough to come out which will only happen if she doesn't see something happening first. She avoiding the pain from shame and fearing that you will do this with her. Rejection and shame in this case are closely tied to together.

This is not some deep dark psychological mystery to unravel. If she's retreated inside the safety inside her head or however she is protecting herself.....you need to lure her out with honey instead of anger, shaming and your own fears. As soon as she takes a wiff of anything resembling shaming, guilting or anger on your part.....these things will just reinforce the very behaviors you don't want which is why it will be more effective to minimize these things as much as possible at least until that trust is reestablished and you no longer are seen as the boogy man to her. If that makes sense.

This is the practical effective solution really by all accounts. The fear you might have is that it will work or not and it will just go the other way by saying what she does is just alright and to keep doing it. If you can try and understand one concept within what I am saying. It's the denial that you are trying to lure her out of. That's the safety zone and protection that you need to get past first. Within that world of denial is where the boogy man lives in her head and all the beliefs she ha about herself which are causing her to behave the way you don't like. Logically speaking in this picture....you need to get her out of there and away from the boogy man who doesn't really exist. You can't do this if she thinks your the boogy man. If she's going to feel safe enough to come out and join you....all boogy man behavior on your part needs to cease to exist by replacing it with only non boogy man behavior. I know that sounds silly but in reality....it really is what you need to do. Shaming in that respect....is the worst thing you can do to her and to yourself at the same time.

Once she comes out and stops being afraid.....that's when you can begin having the relationship you want with her and you won't have to keep doing the same thing you did to get her away from these old thought patterns and join you with ones that fit the two of you better.

Safety and trust and no boogy man behaviors including rejection (dismissing). shaming (pain, low self esteem inside or insecurity as another way to say it) and guilt ( feeling obligated and doing things against what you want for yourself only to apiece others but going directly against what you want for yourself...or in other words, betraying herself.) These are all the effects these things have on someone who has ADHD and are using denial as a means of protection from feeling these things. If you want her out of that rabbit hole.....you've got to lure her out without these things involved. If she peaks her head out and smells them again....she'll run right back down the hole and not come back out until she feels safe again. If you take what I said and apply to everything she has said to you in the past as a way to test this to see if it fits.....I wouldn't be surprised if some of the things I have said already have not already been said but just in other words but without the explanation and the possibly the why parts that might make this easier to understand? If it fits....use it and see what happens. You won't know until you try. Good luck.

JJ...

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 16:06

JJ,

Thanks, I do appreciate your side of it. The boogie man huh, I hope I'm not that to her. Question, how long have you been married and are you and your spouse in a situation? I would like to understand the ADHD side of the perspective, tap your brain so to speak. I'm a big Italian from New York and my Georgia wife has me in knots. I don't dare try and manipulate her at any expense, I just want to ease us back into our marriage as delicately as I can. Thank you JJ

The Boogie Man Doug

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 18:53

It's just something I came up with in the moment, but in reality....you could say it enemies that don't exist. Actually....they do exist but they are in the past not the present and not you. These are those voices from the past speaking to you. The shame of the past and the shame that you carry with you. Those voices are what you fear now in the present and you fear the past coming back to haunt you because your experience tells you this is true. But in respect to those voices...they are not telling you the truth or the whole story. I think having ADHD creates a situation of lots of unresolved questions that remain that way until you find an answer for them. I think that's why it plays out differently. Not that everyone doesn't have this....but also....everyone does not experience their lives the same as with ADHD. I think that is what is truely different.

As far as easing back goes.....what I said about enemies of the past.....something needs to happen to make her believe your not one of them. But doing nothing and just waiting for her to do something is also not going to solve anything. Manipulating in a sense is not a good things to do.....but nurturing here out of her hole (luring her out) by proving to her that you aren't going to do what ever it is that she is saying is probably a good idea. If that's manipulation....then that's a good thing not a bad one. What you may not have considered here....is both of you probably want something from each other and if both of you do nothing together....then nothing will happen. If you do something and she doesn't....that might persuade her to follow your lead and follow you down a different path as long as she feels safe to do so. Safe in the sense that she can trust you. As much as you can't trust her for all good reasons....she is probably feeling exactly the same way. That might be a good opening conversation to have with her when you get the chance and see what she says.

Boogy men and boogy women

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 19:58

J: The boogy man. She can't feel safe enough to allow herself to become vulnerable as long as the boogy man lives in the same house with her. "

Usually the "boogy" in boogy man or woman has some old ghosts in it.

Free floating irrational anxiety, on the other hand, comes out of all kinds of stuff, but needs a big part of not having any way to predict the future in it.

...or that's how these things work for me.

: ) I sound like a basket case.

Thinking about you, Doug. Take care.

Hi Now !!

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 12:04

I think I'm getting to understand...been spending some serious alone time and reading all th advice on this thread. JJ with his insight of having ADHD and us non-ADHD spouses trying to figure it out. My wife I believe as a child because of the comments I hear from her family regarding her hard to control behavior. It must be hard growing up with such a condition and all the negative feedback from others who don't understand. I mean these are critical development years where children begin to develop their personality and the way they behave and interact with society. To grow up with these symptoms and having the feedback must create so much anxiety and hardship. I think as a child you learn to compensate, that is you control on those functions in you that are strong and you repress the functions that have been giving you so much trouble. So there must be so much repression which to me explains the outbursts and anger. I'm less afraid of living with ADHD (since it is diagnosed and controllable) then with some addiction such as drugs or alcohol. I left a 2 year relationship when this woman I was with binged drank and it was the most saddest thing I've seen. I didn't flinch and was out of there. Addictions are extremely dangerous. ADHD though it has all these symptoms they are relatively harmless to us. The disorganization (unfinished projects) I can live with. The only hard part for me is the lack of empathy, lack of communication after the explosions. I need to learn to control my insecurities to not set off the emotional flooding from ADHD. Its hard for me now that we aren't talking. Even after the Atom bomb was used, Oppenheimer went to Washington to plead not to use the weapon for human destruction, and that was war. When we argue, and it lasts, at some time there has to be a time when the reason has evaporated and left the building, and reason comes flooding back. But I don't see that in ADHD. I see a new level of understanding has been breached and I feel the vision my spouse has of me has changed in such a short time. This vision has been impacted by the outbursts which is the flooding back of all the repressed emotions that are lingering below the surface from childhood. I think JJ may be right. The ADHD then hides, isolated and defends itself from what it just revealed. Once you see the monster face to face, everything changes. So now, I pray and use what JJ said. To love, respect and just show the love for my wife. I need to be the one who helps in NOT letting the monster reappear. Its a long hard lesson for us laymen to learn.

Your wife must work on this,

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 12:29

Your wife must work on this, too, Doug. If you're the only one who changes, you're the only one who changes.

Your wife..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 02/26/2016 - 12:57

Hi Rosered,

I know and agree. Liz brought up something that I found informative and that's the pattern of behavior needs to be broken. That does take two. I know that my marriage isn't going anywhere, I believe that and I need to know to know that, I'm not running and that this is going to be a major lesson in being married. There's three dynamics going on, before, during and after an episode. I'm in the after stage now. I know that once we get out of this stage and get back to calming down, that's the time we work best together and that's the time we need to make the necessary arrangements for prevention. It seems that right now, in this stage, I can't get any dialogue going. This is a very weird and frustrating place to be. My wife warned me many times to "keep my mouth shut", now I understand. I have the gift to bring truth to the center and talk about it, at times, I do it when I shouldn't. Because of the defensiveness with ADHD, preventing an explosion (and they are in my home) is critical on my part. I need to change. When I do say something, my wife needs to regulate her emotions, her change. But we are no where near the talking stage. This has gone on way longer than I expected. I'm learning to be patient and wait. I do believe my wife is in a protective place, it's not me, it's what came out and showed itself. My wife has nothing to fear with me, I'm harmless. JJ said some things I have been thinking about pertaining to having ADHD. Shame ! My wife is not talking to me, because I saw the truth and she may feel that way. I don't know, I won't know unless we talk. I do know that we were at that point and I lost it. It's like an effective sports team that lost the season, there's always next year, time to re-build. So, I'm re-building and waiting. It's crazy but I love my wife and I'm committed to my marriage so this is what I must do.

JJ..

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 16:11

Question, why are you vulnerable in a way that creates such anger and defense, that is in ADHD. We are all vulnerable, I am, but I don't go around shutting myself off to someone I love. When you feel vulnerable, do you shut down and dive into some dark safe place. If so, when do you emerge, do you think of others that may be hurting from not understanding this behavior? If so, what do you tell them to make them not worry about you? Thanks

Vulnerability

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 19:52

For someone with ADHD.....when they see the same things happening from the past happening again now in the present time. The pain and fear from the past can come crashing back in on you. Your not likely to trust that the same things won't happen and you are less likely to expose yourself to being hurt again.

Instead of telling you specifically about my wife and I now (yes we have the same issues). I'll put this into a different context for you. I have been in a number of different relationships in my past and with each one came a different set of issues. Yet within those issues....there were consistencies in the complaints I would get depending n each person and how they perceived things. Without knowing I had ADHD....it's really easy to look at these things and chalk them up to the other person since the accounts and the descriptions of the problems each person had with me sounded quite a bit different. Each person had their own priorities of importance and what they said were weighted severely towards the things that bothered them the most. All of these things were different and even the accounts I heard were different too. In a sense......each person had arrived at what they thought the problem was (with me) and they had their own personal feelings and speculations that flavored their accounts.

So in turn after each relationship....I took what each person said and tried to improve or make them better for the next time. But this didn't work at all because in retrospect.....they were all complaining about the same thing and that was my ADHD symptoms but of course.....that's not how it came out. It came out in the form of judgments, misinterpretations and incorrect assessments of what they were actually seeing. What you here from other people is their personal opinions and they are not based on anything more than "I don't like you because of this....or I don't like you because of that" So you set about the task of making corrections to these things but that never seems to do any good. Eventually, you say "screw it"....I give up. I can't please anyone so I might as well just please myself. But you still want to be in a relationship and you don't want any more problems. Who wants problems you know?

The real problem with all of this is that you've been told so many things that aren't true about yourself that you are sure of (so you can't trust even your closest intimate partner based on what they tell you)....but you can trust yourself because you know it has to be something but your not sure what it is? Each time you meet someone new....you hear a different version of the same thing but that leaves you little to go on or tells you any way to solve this dilema.

Fast forward to my wife. I have been married before and I took with me the lessons I had learned and then through therapy and a lot of work an effort...started really putting this all together along with the diagnosis, medication and experience behind me so now I feeling pretty sure that the same thing is not going to happen again because this time....I'm armed with all this great info that I can relate to any prospective partner right up front. Which I did.....in a great deal of detail and humility on top of it. Did this do anything to avoid the past issues. Not much...but some in that respect. The trust issue that so many face here I managed to avoid but not entirely. As they say....actions speak louder than words. The effect of being with someone with ADHD I know understand entirely coming from this experience. No amount of preparation or talking is going to solve these issues. The only thing that will resolve trust issues is proof of evidence in a real factual way. From the ADHD side of things....we're looking for evidence to verify that it's safe to relax and just live without the fear of being hurt again. Shame is pain in that respect...and along with it comes fear. These three things are the things that you really need to address I think. Your wife's fears....the shame or hurt from the past....and trusting that what ever it is that is causing her to retreat is not going to happen or at least....to know that something will be different.

Also just so you know....denial comes in different forms and severalties. In my case...my denial as it was....was quite a bit different than what I am seeing play out with my wife now. She has a number of childhood traumas and issues that are still plaguing her to this day. For the same reason someone with ADHD uses denial for self protection as a defense against pain (shame) and past hurt.....I see this playing out in real time with my wife now from my perspective from having been there....and then now I'm not. In respect to how I feel about myself (inside and out) I don't need it anymore and can face my issues head on without having it completely derail me and make it difficult to even function.

For my wife with all the wonderful things she has to offer.....she keeps a pretty tight lid on them more often than I would like which is for the same reason I was saying. Fear, shame and an inability to become vulnerable enough to access those wonderful qualities. She has built up a defense strategy based on acting on impulse and fear and frantically trying to find her way by building walls and boundaries all around her that only makes it more difficult for me and makes her more unhappy the harder she tries. Once I get too close to her....she pushes me away. Once I get too far away....she starts clinging and pulling me back. Push, pull, push pull. All in a frantic effort to get me to be what she wants or to get her needs met which ultimately comes in the form of manipulation. At least for me....this seems painfully obvious since I can recognize some of it from my own past experience.

Bottom line here for you if I had to give any advise. What I learned from all of this? You'd think that since I recognize these things with my wife....I could just sit down and explain this to her in a way she can understand? Nope. No amount of talking did anything but make me frustrated. You'd think my wife would have been prepped and ready for all the things I warned her about? Nope. No amount of talking and explaining ahead of time did little to help or make things much different than my past...to make the point. I bring my ADHD with me where ever I go. There is no greener grass or better person out there. If I can't make it with my wife now....I can't make it with anyone. Stark reality but true. On the same token.....if I can make it with my wife.....I can make it with anyone. The buck stop here....that's the bottom line. No matter who are with in the future....you bring YOU along with you. Different day......different person.....same issues. Despite the different prioities each person might have....one may pick one symptom over another....but when you have ADHD....it's a package deal.....you never escape it until you learn how to do something about it.....and then do it. That's the answer for someone who has it.

The answer for a person with ADHD coming from what we need? To trust you, for you to love us and believe you will still be there tomorrow despite all of the issues you face with being with us. If you were to try and not do something to set these gears in motion that trigger denial and defense from us....give us your faith and reassurance and treat us like you like us. Not just love us.....but you like who we are and you like being with us. You can like someone and treat them better than the people you love. Ain't that the truth

So is you took what I just said....even if you don't feel this way for now.....if you were to do anything along the lines of manipulation of sorts....try not to show displeasure for a while even though you dont feel like it...and replace it with approval, reassurance and lots of validation and see what happens if you can pull this off without letting her see how unhappy you are. Just for a little while. Just play the role or act the part by trying to hide how you really feel if it's negative at all. Not forever or even a very long time....but even for a couple of weeks and see what happens if you do just these things.

In other words.....tell her the things she does right....and don't tell her anything she does wrong just for a start and see where that goes. I'll bet your effort in not showing any negative reactions will pay off in dividends for you. Once you ease her back out of her hole that way. let her have a chance to feel safe again and then move into talking about your issues after you had a chance feel safe with each other again.

So there Doug....some things to do.....and some things not to do. If you do those things first even if she does nothing. That's doing something after all and giving her the motivation to follow your lead.

What if...

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 03/04/2016 - 02:25

...we did do it forever...dishing out the approval, reassurance, lots of validation? Putting the kibosh on our dissatisfactions?

Or..if we do focus mostly on what we like about our ADHD person and mostly ignore what we don't like, then, perhaps, when we do bring up an issue, they will be more open and receptive, and we will have more of an impact? Perhaps?

I know it feels better to me, when I share with my son positive feelings about him, and too often we run aground when I complain. When we focus on what is wrong with someone, we can make it bigger, and same re focusing on what is good.

Acceptance is the Doorway...

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 03/04/2016 - 11:09

Delphine,

I hope you're right ! It's hard to accept when your ADHD spouse continues to behave as a non caring, distant wife. I'm taking the road to work on me, be the best that I can be and not take her behavior and actions seriously and personally. I'm working on things that make this situation harder on me such as my negative personality traits of insecurities; confidence, patience, slightly obsessed in organization, insecure with detachment and silence, these negative traits in me come to life when my ADHD wife distances herself by diving into her Rabbit Hole and not come out. I feel abandoned, alone, unsure of what happened. I feel like I have two left feet and I want to take my first kiss with a girl...this is all wrong, awkward and so destructive to each of our personal and combined progression i life. Marriage is a plan, a co-ownership of the future together, this is not an individual mentality. It's hard forgiving when you feel that you are being deliberatley attacked by the one person you love deeply.

Maybe in your case, D...

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/05/2016 - 01:23

...you and your wife might do better living apart? It doesn't have to mean divorce. Acceptance doesn't mean putting up with things that are deeply disturbing to us. You may find peace in solitude that you can't find, living with your wife. And you may find your relationship renewed.

I've experienced something similar with my ADHD son. Sharing the apartment with him, he was always escaping to his room, closing the door firmly behind him. I didn't like it but I adjusted. After all, I need my space, too. It did bother me more when I knew he was binge drinking in there. He didn't do it all the time, but often enough.

Now he is gone to live with his girlfriend. He came over today and we had a lovely afternoon. Took care of some business together, went thrift shopping and for lunch. We shared a lot of good stuff. It was like old times. We almost never hung out like that when he was living here.

It is intriguing to ponder that most unhappy partners of those with ADHD would do better living apart, which again, doesn't have to mean divorce per se. More grist for this mill:
http://www.alternet.org/culture/living-apart-good-marriage-more-american...

Staying Neutral Is a Third Option Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 03/04/2016 - 12:12

This was brought up in Melissa's seminar class. we did do it forever...dishing out the approval, reassurance, lots of validation? Putting the kibosh on our dissatisfactions?

I think there are steps you have to take to get from the place where you aren't getting what you want.....to getting what you want but it always seems to play out as an "either" "or" proposition. As Non ADHD said.....acceptance is necessary but I think that's only the first step. Meeting in the middle after acceptance means being neutral for a while so both people can get on the same page together at the same time. That's the in between step before you start moving in the direction of what both people want.

At the very least as you are saying.....staying on the positive side is never making the wrong decision....but it can still be one sided if you can never talk about the things that you don't like either. If you can stay in a neutral objective position without getting negative yourself.....I think you are right on the money by not changing directions and going in the way you don't want for yourself. If you are focused on yourself and what you do (and think)...then this is only for your benefit....not anyone else.

A bit of wisdom and advise given to me by my T "don't make what you do contingent on anyone else." That includes your thoughts not necessarily only your actions. I concur completely.

Agree with your T...

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/05/2016 - 01:37

...which I guess means your therapist. I'm reminded of this from one of my favorite spiritual sources:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/96194142017497317/
And yeah, we can talk about issues. It just seems to me that it is all too easy for the non-ADHD partner to get in the habit of focusing on problems. Day after day, year after year, focusing on the big bad ADHD person. Our perspective gets skewed. We bring out more of the good stuff when we look for it, praise and otherwise reinforce it.

My son shared with me today, an incident with his girlfriend. She was critical of a dinner she had fixed for him, and it upset him so that he had to leave her presence and go for a walk. Out walking, he contemplated splitting up with her over this! Fortunately, when he returned, they were able to talk about it and come to understanding/resolution. He told her, in brief, that he needed positivity and recoils from negative energy, due to his sensitive nature. I wonder if this is what is going on with most ADHD behind what seems their detached and self-absorbed ways. They are trying to protect themselves from the negative energy directed at them? What do you think, J?

Yes Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 03/05/2016 - 11:43

What you said here is profound .."Our perspective gets skewed." I'm actually talking about people with ADHD here. From the sound of it.....I think this might be for two different reasons and your son brought up one of them "that he needed positivity and recoils from negative energy, due to his sensitive nature." That sensitive nature I think has a lot to do with emotional lability. I'm basing my thoughts here on my experience and trying to dig inward for answers to myself.

My understanding is that this is common (not 100% in all cases) but with many who have ADHD including myself. This was a feature that I was not aware of until Melissa introduced this to me here on the forum a while ago and it really made me stop and think about a lot things including what you have brought up here about metaphysics (or mind over matter?). I can't say I wasn't completely unaware of this because I WAS totally aware of the fact that when I would get angry....my ability to control that one raw emotion has always been a struggle as long as I can remember. And why struggle with just this one? Because it's the one that other's notice first as well.

This is what other people remember so it's what stick in your mind and you focus on your anger as the only aspect of having ADHD. Mine was possibly (fortunately)...not what I would call hair trigger....but it still had kind of a point of no return when it would get out of control or losing my temper which was not something that I had much control of if I let it go that far but I think there is more to this now?

My particular home situation could be volatile enough because of one person at home let alone two who had very reactive short fuse and that being my own father. I really don't think he had ADHD and that wasn't the cause for this in him however.....yet, this created an environment with a lot of tension, apprehension and fear along with mistrust for the rest of us(my mother, sisters and I ) and we knew to do everything we could not to set him off and raise his eir. (very oppressive) Not good in other words.

In turn...... there was a lot of repression going on and having to curb your emotions out of this fear. To say mine was not completely hair trigger was not exactly true....and was more likely due to the fact that with no other choice than to repress it and stuff it down and learn how to manage it better of else face the consequences. Without that fear of reprisal there to temper this in a good way.....you also learn not to show all emotions which was also the way that I think a lot of boys my age were taught and to be more stoic and unfeeling (on the exterior) But that's not to say I was not sensitive because in reality....I was very sensitive but had to put on this somewhat false exterior that said differently especially being a male in this society if you can understand it from that perspective?

This is all in respect to the most important part of what I discovered after learning about emotional liability and that has to do directly with my thinking here that has to do with negative emotions or looking at only the negative aspects of it? It occurred to me when I learned about this....that emotional liability (or being sensitive)....is not just about anger or negative emotions.....but includes all emotions both inside and out (out being what others see). This realization put a lot of things into perspective for me which seemed to make a lot of sense.

It Dawned on me....on the good side of this.....I tend to have a big personality or one that shows readily to others in all good (or positive ways). People respond well to my sense of humor (in person when I can gage it better and play that off of other people) as well as my ability to smile and laugh easily and have a generally sunny disposition. Despite the ways I've countered this in ways to fit in at time (from a male perspective) I can be surprisingly tender, caring and sensitive all things considered. But along with that.....when something hurts or I am sad I also feel it deeply in the same way.

Laugh, cry, fear or anger......what I feel inside can be very intense and deep and along with that ...it comes out in all aspects as being just as intense for others too......positive and negative. If you follow me so far and apply what we were talking about with your emotions following your thoughts.......this is just the opposite of that in respect to your thoughts originally developed from this going in the other direction? I can almost say I know this for sure without having any way to support why I feel that way but it's true?

So going right along with what you said here They are trying to protect themselves from the negative energy directed at them? What do you think, J? What I think is you are absolutely correct! If you look at everything I just and stop and consider this for a moment.....what is being "sensitive" anyway? In terms of ....or for the person who is this way....it has to do with what you feel or your feelings......good, bad or indifferent and perhaps.....indifferent is one that least likely applies?

Showing feelings on the outside (or what others see) is just that......what you share or what others see has less to do with what a person actually feels on the inside sometimes especially if you've learned not to show them. That and learning the hard way that people do not respond well to the times that this causes them to react in a negative way?

Coming full circle here......if this is the way you were born and this is all you know?.......in respect to the fact that the world as you see it and know.... always comes exclusively through one set of eyes (and all your senses) which are yours......to varying degree on average....ALL people are going to pick up these differences too.....positive and negative. if you were to have the ability (in theory) to go back and change this one aspect and tone it down some......this would change you experience along with others and you would have a completely different perspective (and the thoughts that you developed from this experience ) along with it?

Taking what you said about your son and his experience with his girl friend and insert what I am saying here....this might give you some idea (or insight ) of what he's actually experiencing when this happened too him. The incident might have been seen as inconsequential or one that most people might not think should be such a big deal (even your son....maybe yes maybe not at this point?) but that's not how he reacted to it. Reacted means....the feelings that arose from it along with the intensity of it and the ability to control it or manage it. I don't know how old he is?)... but I came to this realization at some point that what I was experiencing was not the norm or on average as I compared what I saw in other people many times and some people in particular....do not respond well to others emotions in general as this causes them to feel uncomfortable both....positive and negative ones as well. To say this another way.....many people do not enjoy, relate or share their emotions easily and having intense or more extreme emotions confront them from others is not a desirable thing and those people are going to say a lot of negative things and complaints about feeling uncomfortable and directly this towards the cause. That being you. This I have found to be very true. Some people really enjoy being around very expressive people....and others do not. One in particular was my own father....both!...positive and negative emotions. In his case......emotions PERIOD! ha ha Which was I believe at this point....was that he truely did not have any (or was very disconnected to them) and this put him in an very uncomfortable position when he felt that others would demand that from him.....that is, what he didn't have?

Of course no one is going to actually say this or admit to anyone ( even if they were aware of it....thinking not likely?) ....but at least in this one person that i knew intimately.....in a more tragic sense.......this was absolutely true. Can you imagine? "Hey buddy.....mind turning off your emotions so I don't have to deal with those pescky things I don't have....they bug me! " In a real essence.....this is the feedback you get and think in part.....it's the reason why? People respond and "feel differently" on an emotional not cognitive level ( not like an opinion that is) and depending on how your feel(your sensitivity level or range) ....will also depend on what level or what intensity you are comfortable with yourself? If all of that makes any sense?

In a very general way.....how I see others many times as not responding or appearing less feeling or flatter in their responses many times to the same thing where I'm feeling things much more strongly in comparison. I can almost say that this is a "fact" from my perspective because it seems.....I have or am usually the one who seems I have to hide, control or manage this where others do not under the same circumstances?

So I can see myself doing what your son did in my past for the same reasons if you apply what I am saying. This can be very troubling and difficult to describe to another person if you are not aware of it......and they in turn are not going to understand it or relate to this to understand why?

Bottom line here....the cumulative experience of being more sensitive....experiencing hurt and negative reactions from others throughout your life....leads you to believe and feel (on a cognitive level) things differently and the opinions and thoughts that are formed from this in that order. The only way to reverse this trend as needed.....is exactly the same way you got there.

This is also why I agree with you and whole heartedly agree with your approach as well. If you want to undo what has already been done....reverse the order and it will work going the other way. TOTALLY....I absolutely agree:)

it's an excuse J

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 03/05/2016 - 10:18

No offense but your using your father as an excuse. Repression is not the cause of the anger, it's the inhibition to regulate emotions, the flooding. I lost my parents when I was 12 and raised by my older brother and my sister in law. You want to talk about anger and repression. But I learned over the years as my repressed anger surfaced like I see in ADHD. But I learned to change that horrible behavior, that's why I have a graduate degree in psychology, it was for me. I look at my wife, she's beautiful and smart, yet, she continues to want to be defensive, explosive, angry, insults, threaten, hit, and she does not apologize,just waits for the next time. And we, thenon-ADHD'rs are suppose to pick up the pieces and figure out how to regroup after the onslaught and barrage of verbal machine gun. This part of shock and awe by most ADHD symptoms, at least in my case is not impressive. TO me, it's a terrible waste of energy, an excuse to ruin other people's lives and to deliberately sabotage a marriage.

Thank You NonADHD

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 03/05/2016 - 13:28

No offense taken. Putting it in those terms....I see what you mean especially in relationship to now. Let me ask you something about this.....I do understand what you are saying about inhibition and as I am doing.....simply observing myself and connecting what I think it is which is not a very scientific approach in considering this. To clarify this possibly better.....aren't there two things happening here in terms of what I am describing? This is tough to explain but bear with me?

Emotional lability as I am seeing it myself...is what you are saying as well and is related directly to the inhibition to regulate emotions? That's a given. As I am describing my father in this relationship. It wasn't just myself or my other family members who felt un at ease or uncomfortable around him. Even more so for friends of mine who were not use to this who who use to say to me "your Dad is scary" I'm saying in a very intimidating way for everyone. He was extremely intimidating just by walking in the door. Difficult to describe but none the less true. Also saying.....this was very unusual even now as I'm comparing him to anyone else I have met.

To have to be that hyper-vigilent and on guard in his presence (always) in fear of retaliation was to say....a highly unusual experience for anyone. Dissension was absolutely NOT allowed under any circumstances and would not be tolerated for a second. Acting out, emotional outbursts or any kind ever where met with severe consequences to the point of instantaneous/spontaneous physical attack. There was no room allowed for negotiation, complain, expression of any kind to the contrary of anything he felt was not to be tolerated. This is a man who stated on a regular basis as his Mantra "I don't want to be loved.....I only want respected"...and made it clear that emotional things or things that created any kind of emotion at all other than total silence when he was around was made clear in no uncertain terms. That included talking. I'm not saying this was a desperate cry for love and affection on my fathers part......what I'm saying is he was serious and there was little to left to think otherwise by all of his other behaviors that fit into this.

As I am now seeing this. This was way out of the norm not just for me but for everyone based on the same feeling this instilled in other people as well. It was also easy to tell the difference as soon as he left or was not there. The minute he walked back out the door.....things seemed more "normal" and the rest of us in the family actually acted quite a bit different almost immediately and began to show and express our emotions in a more normal way.

And yes....when this happened is when you would also see these expressions come out in a way that was what you might expect along with the inhibition to regulate emotions and the rest. But not when he was around. The only thing I felt was fear and apprehension in my fathers presence and there was always an undercurrent of ominous foreboding when ever I was with or around him....even when things were less likely to explode and he was seemingly in an Okay mood?

So as I am seeing this now......one issue is emotional liability.....and one issue is PTSD. From this.....learning how to express anything well since expression was not tolerated (at all)and replaced with fear (in an on going and never changing basis) you never get the chance to learn or have any experience with it in the same way in which I saw when I was with other families and people in general?

I'm not assuming that everyone who has ADHD had this experience. I think it's highly unusual and it sounds different than what you are describing with your own tragic events. I could be totally wrong here is what I am saying but it is very difficult to know which is PTSD and which is the inhibition of emotions? If your base line was 0....meaning total abstinence of expression and then going to trying to expressing your emotions......things get difficult to separate and to know where one starts and where one stops or how they even. relate to one another?

In what you said about anger not being the cause? I didn't ( and still don't feel anger ) in respect to how I feel when confronted with other's anger....my immediate first reaction or response I always feel is irrational fear and terror and fight and flight (freeze) any time I have any feelings at all when it comes to confrontation of any kind...always.

So in respect to being anger? I don't explode. I get quiet and still. If I can......I run or get away as my immediate reaction and try an avoid showing any signs of emotions what so ever as my first line of defense....always. If the confrontation escalates......my normal MO is to spout of some kind of command in a very assertive way to "STOP!" or "QUIT!" in a distressed and elevated voice. If the person doesn't desist and I can't find an escape route available and feel cornered after yelling again "STOP NOW!!!!" or something like that and they continue......that's when fear/terror feeling turns to anger and I turn and retaliate which comes as an explosion more like a dog who is a fear biter....out of no where with no warning after the initial "growling" to warn off a perceived attacker or antagonist.

This is my MO for what it is and always has been. Fear and terror are the only emotions I feel until that sense of violation and that irrational fear of personal safety (in a morbid sense) after overt and clear warning before it erupts into anger ......but anger turning from unmistakable fear/terror always in that respect before I lose my composure and hit that magic line where there is no return......freeze, silence, attempts to escape, warning shot over the bow then...and only then..... retaliation in anger only when cornered but not any other time.

In respect to what you are saying......inhibition to regulate emotions is certainly part of this.....but where does this sense of irrational fear and terror come from and how does that play into freeze and flight if that had nothing to do with my father and the fallout from this past experience? And in respect to my first line of defense when I feel angry.....I tend to get quiet or silent instead of expressing it at all. Silence. This is where the lines between what I think is repression?, PTSD and emotional lability get very blurry for me. Any thoughts on this NonADHD?

Why do you stay, NonADHD?

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/05/2016 - 19:08

Given that you are unhappy and seemingly not getting anything good out of this marriage?

There must be something you are getting out of it though, or you wouldn't stay in it. No one is holding you hostage except yourself.

Why I stay..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 03/11/2016 - 11:27

Hi Delphine,

In my past I have always ran into and out of relationships way too fast. I was traumatized when I was 12 due to death of both parents. I was angry and unsure of staying in relationships for long periods. I was fortunate to have good looks all my life and had no problem meeting and being with woman. I have always been a one girl kind of guy. I always say Ive been married for 15 years but to 3 different woman. Not to mention all the relationships in between. I finally realized some years ago that I needed to stop running. So fast forward, here I am. I finally married after 14 years of being single after divorce. I was ready. So I married a beautiful woman with a wonderful heart and family. The only issue, the big issue is the ADHD and her anger. All the other symptoms in our specific I can live with. So to answer your question, I stay because 1) I'm not running anymore, 2) I love my wife and 3) I'm building my faith as a good Christian and I honor the covenant of marriage. It sounds corny and cliche' but its time that I create a strong value towards marriage. I have built a coalition of strong Christian male friends who have experienced trials in their marriage and they are supportive and positive. In the beginning, I didn't understand ADHD and the symptom of explosive anger and I was a catalyst to that as I questioned my wife;s behavior and debated it. When you question a spouse with ADHD there is a chance they may have the defensive intensity that triggers the anger cycle. So, it took me this long to investigate ADHD. I have a graduate degree in psychology and I never thought that I would be in a marriage with someone with a cognitive disability. To be clear, the only major issue is the anger. In my marriage, the anger explosion creates so many marriage destructive actions. Cause and Effect. Ive been working so diligently on me to change my behavior in order to stop any behavior of mine that may trigger the anger. It happened the other night, within 5 minutes of me walking in, walking on eggshells (which I refuse to do anymore) my wife exploded over something so small as to let in the dog she let out, he was done with his business and was barking, she didn't want him in yet, so, this was the reason to defile me, emasculate me, criticize me, all within 15 minutes and then it got way out of hand. We even had a very productive discussion on Sunday, the first type of discussion in over 2 months. I started this thread. I felt great, went to a bible study, walked in, felt great, I was quiet, respected her distance, then bam !! She's been under pressure, stressed, we are in a storm, but there is no excuse to speak to me like that when I did nothing. So, as a witness, ADHD anger can explode in seconds. It should not be up to us to observe our ADHD spouse and determine where they are at the moment, it should be up to them to say something that prevents a tantrum. As I read in this forum, I read so many non ADHD walking on eggshells. I read ADHD spouses who blame it on the non-ADHD spouse. I read ADHD spouses think they can act the way they do and everyone needs to accept that. It's a shame, and I will not be that way. So, my goal is to get my wife back to a state of mind where we are close, her walls have come down and she is trusting to talk to me. Its not because of me, it;s because of her history with ADHD, that defensive barriers erect when she wants to and everyone else, must wait outside these walls until she determines to let them down.

Warning--esoteric pov ahead

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 03/11/2016 - 21:50

Hi D,

On a conscious level, you may not be running (leaving), but the impact of your parents' passing when you were 12 is still with you, still in your aura, and by the Law of Attraction, drawing to you relational experiences that echo that early abandonment. When your wife directs her rage at you, and when she walls herself off, doesn't it feel like abandonment? I know it feels like that to me when my son does the same, although I am working on detaching more, and of course this is less of an issue now that he's no longer sharing the apartment.

I too had to come to understand my past influences that were echoing in my son's ADHD symptoms. I only recently "got it" that my mother, who passed in '98, was ADHD (undiagnosed). She had so many of the same behaviors. Now I can better understand my father's frustration and anger toward her. He worked hard to support us and thought he was entitled to a wife who would at least keep the house in order. She thought so too, yet she just wasn't able to do it.

Is it up to the ADHD person to change? If we wait on that, we are in a very vulnerable position, because people change when they are ready, and when they decide to do so--and not for any other reason. I've mentioned Ho'oponopono here before. The basis of Ho'oponopono is that we are responsible for A L L of our experience. Not "to blame"--but responsible. This is actually empowering. It puts us in the driver's seat rather than being at the mercy of another person's whims. All that we experience as problems, in Ho'oponopono, comes down to memories replaying in the subconscious--i.e., your parents' untimely passing, my mother's ADHD, my father's rage and other abuse. So we appeal to our God-self, our Divinity. "I am sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you." (The phrases can be said in any order.) Your wife's rage, walling herself off--memory of your early abandonment, replaying in your subconscious.

If you closely examine the teachings in the Bible, they are in sync with Ho'oponopono. It is about totally letting go to the workings and guidance of our Divinity. "Not my will, oh Lord, but Thine be done."

And, I think you and your fellow Christians may find this of interest. Neville Goddard was a mystic who I feel plumbed the depths of meaning in the Bible. http://www.law-of-attraction-haven.com/support-files/imagination-creates...

I know my point of view may seem awfully esoteric, and I know full well it can be a major challenge to apply these teachings, but in my experience, well worth it.

Delphine

The FOREST and the TREES...D

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 13:00

Hey D,

If I may....I want to share a few things with you that I have really just in the last months, started pulling together and using with some great success with my wife. We started out in the same place you are so what I have been going through doesn't sound any different except for the part where you wife completely walls herself off and won't talk to you. You say you have an advanced degree in psychology so I think you can apply that to what I saying here. I think this has everything to do with the way in which you are trying to approach you wife more than anything else. This has been my mistake as well.

If you are using that picture in your mind (you know.... that one where you see the two of you together....your hopes and dreams, your forecast of what the future will be like and how you see yourself and your wife together along with your step son and everything else in it?)......you know, that one? I think if you already have that story created in your head with all the trimmings including your wife and step son in it.....that right there is something I think will be helpful to you set that down for the time being and try to see that picture a little differently ( possibly......slightly modified?)

In order to do this.....you need to do a couple of things first. Namely.....you need to see your wife's picture or the same one you have but now.....not using yours at all and just trying to see her's from her point of view. I'm not surreptitiously trying to say or teach you how to be more empathetic here.....I'm actually being much more literal and straight forward in the sense of that picture I'm talking about.

Any time you've got that picture firmly in your mind of what you want your life to be like (which is clearly not a bad thing to set goals for yourself and move in the direction you want to be going). For all good reasons, being goal conscious and having a plan of attack or an approach for yourself like this is a very good thing to have....but within that picture comes a story and that's where things can start going south rather quickly.

Consider this using that frame of reference for a moment. If you've got a picture like that in your head and a story to go along with it......you've got to figure.....your wife has one too? I think right there is a good place to start but that's not all I am trying to say to you here. That's just the first step.

Figuring she has her own picture and story just like you.....the two of you are both using that as a means to access where you are in comparing where you want to be if that makes sense? Literally.....like a stage play or movie as I was placing you in a movie theater watching hers to get a better understanding of her.......now, immediately after her movie is over.....the second feature coming up next is your own. Now it's your turn to watch your own movie and your story but from a completely objective view just like anyone else in the theater along with you.

William Shakespeare wrote.......All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players;

They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages.

At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

Then, the whining school-boy with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school.

And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow.

Then, a soldier,
Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden, and quick in quarrel,

Seeking the bubble reputation. Even in the cannon's mouth.

And then, the justice,
In fair round belly, with a good capon lined,
With eyes severe, and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws, and modern instances,
And so he plays his part.

The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound.

Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

As I interpret Shakespeare and his allegory of life ....the last stage ends without seeing anything, without tasting anything and without anything (or everything )

If you can start by putting your own story down for a minute.....and become that last stage in Shakespeare's allegory.....you are now where you were when you first started ......at the beginning where you had nothing to go off of since your story doesn't exist anymore.......without anything. Just like a child.

It's amazing how Shakespeare saw the circle of life in the picture in his mind and used that to draw from to create those images within his words. (he was a clever devil you can say that much for him lol )

If you could imagine sitting in a movie theater watching the story of your wife's life from start to finish up until this point in time.....you'd get a real clear picture of what her life must have been like in the past and including how she is now which would give you a very clear and understandable image (or picture) of how you might be if that were you within it.

If you can do this for yourself......you will be able to do this for your wife as well. If you listen to here story and observe it as a witness.....you will be able to place yourself in it the same as you would if you were sitting in the theater watching it and experiencing a movie.......this is the usefulness of doing this for yourself in this way.....that is.....trying to relate your own experience to hers in the same way......or in essence......joining in and being a part of her story just long enough (in your head) to give you that second image or story (hers) along with yours at the same time. But your not done yet and there is one more step in this process.....

Now you stand back and look at both of these pictures side by side and see where all the discrepancies are. If you do this.....there will be many. In fact....those two pictures will look completely different than one another and that's where you will see all the problems you are having with her.

Forget about her ADHD for a while.....that's her problem or issue it's not yours. It's only yours if you make it your's so let that go for a minute and focus on the discrepancies in the two pictures that go along with the two stories? Your never going to change those stories since they are personal to only you.

You can't change your past and the story that goes along with it......but you can change the story of the future by not having one to begin with. The problems you are running into come from those images you need to have to set goals and move in the direction you want.....but as soon as you put that agenda into the story of your life with another person...you will see how futile and impossible it is to try and make those two ever match up completely.

It's simply impossible yet.....we still try and make that happen anyway.

So for what it's worth D.......this is where I have failed myself in almost everything I have done in my past. But most of the success that I have personally had with my wife....has come from adopting this approach with her. Instead of trying to work it that way..... try working on creating a new story without the two of your (both of your) past stories there to confuse the issue.

One more thing......if I had to see what your wife is doing without reading any more in to it......I'd say she digging in and pissed off about something? Could it be...that her ADHD is the thing that is not fitting into your story?

It's her ADHD not yours.......that's not your problem? Think about it?

Forest and the Trees

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 12:54

Thank you for taking the time to write your response concerning my issue. I will need some practice in viewing both scenarios with my minds eye. I agree, I do have my personal image in my head of our family. Honesty, my wife's past is kind of secretive to me. Sure there are things she has told me in the beginning and it never interfered with us before. My wife is a Georgian and comes from a family with a long history of southern traditions. I'm the Carpetbagger from New Jersey. We both have very different upbringings. I disagree however on the ADHD. Thigh she has several of the major symptoms that have been identified with ADHD the anger is probably the worst. I agree with you that something in her past has triggered her deep rooted anger and it's directed at me and it interferes with our marriage. I hve a past, but my journey through life has been to understand the root cause of my anger, embrace it, then understand the emotions attracted to it, identify the external triggers (stimuli) that causes the emotions to come out. I have learned that the only way to maintain emotional release, outbursts, is emotional regulation. I have worked on controlling my emotions, and know it works. However, with ADHD, and I know you are sitting there shaking your head because you have it, because of ADHD, one symptom is the inability to regulate emotions. My wife is unable to control her emotions at various points. Lately, it has been on a regular basis. I think you're right, right now in our marriage, we re experiencing some financial set backs. I'm out of work (working on several interviews as we speak) and she is working hard (hyper-focused) on a job that she hates, and the major stress is her son (my step son) and how father and step mother. They have had a war since before I came here. Medical coverage is crucial to her because she is contractually suppose to have full medical coverage. When I lost my job, I lost our coverage and she now has to pay for COBRA which is extremely expensive. Her past, my step sons father did not work, lived off of her, and now he lives off his wife who happens t be the pediatrician they had for their son. They make her life miserable, he does because he's a manipulater and uses woman. She hates my wife because of jealousy, my wife is a beautiful woman. So, the stress of finances, a job she hates, me not working and the control they have over her because of this is causing severe strain on her. I think she see's me as someone trying to take advantage of her, these feelings, emotion may be running to the surface and she is taking it out on me. I have shared everything with her, unselfishly use my 401k, paid medical coverage and utilities when I came here up until losing my job. We have no mortgage, home is paid for. But what gets me is the tantrums erupt, I'm attacked, thrown out (staying at my mother in laws as I write this) and how quickly she forgets all I have done. I have brought laughter, fun, a loving husband, great step dad to a wonderful boy, and yet, I feel abandoned and kicked to the curb. I know she has much to think about, I hope. So, I'm patient (another trait I needed to work on) waiting and hoping she will let go and come to a calmer place. We just had a wonderful adult conversation on Sunday with promise, only to lose it all in 5 minutes. I'll be honest, this must stop, I cannot walk on eggshells, be dominated, criticized and bossed around. I'm a great guy I bring a lot to the table, that's why I held off until now and that's why I left relationships. So tell me J, when you, if you get angry, a tantrum, if you hav this issue with your ADHD and you epode on your wife, what are thinking right after, is it all about you, do you feel empathy for her, I there any sensitivity in your thoughts, or do you continue to blame her. I want to know, how does it make you feel when you get angry and cause a major scene over something trivial. When do you realize you did something wrong and do you get to a point to want to correct it. I know my wife and I can have an awesome marriage. I have witnessed that, but right now, she is in control and what seems far from coming back. Doug

Tell A New Story

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 17:07

Agree with J about telling a new story, and that syncs with the e-book I shared with you, D, on Imagination Creates Reality.

You might check out: http://www.goldstarcoaching.com/articles/LawOfAttactionBasics/magic-tell...

Excerpt:

"Whatever you're experiencing in your life is a direct reflection of the story you've been telling. Therefore, if you'd like to experience different circumstances in your life, tell a different story. Simply start telling the story of your life the way you want it to be rather than the way it is or the way it was or the way you're afraid it might be. Take back your power to create your life exactly the way you want it to be with the Magic of Telling a New Story.

To begin, step back and take a good long look at your life. Are your relationships fulfilling? How's that bank account looking? Do you love your work and feel good about your level of success? What about your health and fitness? Are there areas of your life that could use some tweaking? Great, tell a new story. Start today and tell the story of your life the way you want it to be. Tell an empowering new story that works FOR you rather than AGAINST you."

New Story...

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 18:10

Wow, it's a long scroll down to get here using an iPad. I don't know why they just don't put all new replies at the top of the page.

Delphine, thanks for the link but that's not for me. I wrote my new story coming here, high of completing a masters, I just got accepted into the UGA Terry School of Business this week, that's a top business school in the country. I'm writing my new life, and I wanted it to include my marriage. I agree with JJ, about looking at both our lies and seeing similarities and differences. I'm out on the pool deck at my mother in laws and was thinking back, just 2 years ago, how wonderful we connected, all the trips, intimacy, time together and being happy. I'M hoping this is temporary, though it's extremely disappointing to me. All I've done was give 100%, right or wrong, good or bad. That's all I know how to do. But to be tossed aside, no matter is just too disheartening. I'm sorry but this isn't drama this is a critical issue. I feel vulnerable because I was open and loving. I feel I have no leverage of the way my wife is behaving. Why do I have to leave, no text, no calls, no remorse, no empathy no adult make up. This is f%$#@ stupid. It's insulting and childish on her part. I am getting another theme though and that's "don't say anything". At first I thought it was about me shutting up and my attitude was, if I have something to say, then I'm saying it, which usually lead to her exploding. My mother in law just said it tonight, that we both need to learn to shut our mouths. Now what I get from this is, if we are careful and shut our mouths to her criticism and my defending her insults, then we may an answer. My wife responds to me when I'm silent, about anything, just not saying anything, unless we talk. I think she may be sensitive to sound, she watched tv at super low levels, like a whisper, weird. My, I need it loud, like surround sound, music as well (I've been a drummer all my life). At this point in time I know she's stressed s she may be overly sensitive to everything and I may annoy her. So, I'm working on being silent, no response no matter what. What is really bugging me is the physical distance from each other and the non talking. It's driving me crazy. I guess this is helping her calm down. I wanted to ask JJ how it feels before the flooding and after the emotional flooding if he ever has outbursts, no tantrums. These must play a huge toll physically on the ADHD spouse, Is there a recovery period. So, Liz has had some decent information which was just being me, be the best Doug get this more and more each time we have this separation after a tantrum.

You have a choice, Doug...

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 20:27

...whether to be upset or not, about the silence and the distance. It is not a negative thing in itself. It is just that it pushes your abandonment buttons, as I pointed out before. Viewed positively, it can be seen as an opportunity to get centered and peaceful. This, in itself, will promote healing and resolution between you. (I think your mother in law is wise in what she said.)

I've learned, myself, not to get into arguments or try to defend myself when my son is in a state. It only escalates the issues. I understand now that at those times he is not in control of his emotions.

We non-ADHD have the advantage of being able to do so--we just have to decide on it.

You are a Christian. Call on Jesus to be with you in trying times. That's what he advised. "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

I think you are fortunate that you CAN escape to your mother in law's. Give thanks for that. Look for things to be grateful for rather than dwelling on issues (that only magnifies them).

Congrats on your acceptance into the UGA Terry School of Business. Well done :)

Delphine

DELPHINE.....Spot On

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 20:43

Hi Delphine,

You said something that I never thought of and this may be what I've been looking for. Perhaps we can discuss this further. That is "when they (ADHD) are in that state, they are NOT in control of their emotions". I think you hit the nail on the head, I never thought that. That's why, at these moments, the anger tantrum erupts. Escalation is the inability to regulate their emotions. So the flooding of emotions is what happens at this point. So, when I sense escalation, stop, shut my mouth, because anything say is used to escalate. Yes, I do pray and I have been praying. We need Christ in the center of our marriage. The good news, she has agreed to that. The bad news, we just went through one of her escalations to explosions, hence me being at my mother in law and yes, she is truly a blessing. But I will begin to be sensitive to my wife's vocal tone, and prepare. When I hear slight frustration, anxiousness, this is the state of escalation, this will be my time to say nothing, or go do something. Great Job !!!

Awesome D

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 23:20

You are the one doing the great job. You know the Bible says to "pray without ceasing." I have more or less concluded that's the ticket!

Pray on :)

Delphine

Be the Artist of Your Own Life

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 21:10

Yep. I agree again Delphine. D....the other book that Delpine mentioned to you was the Four Agreements. Miquel Ruiz talks about being the artist of your own life. In it he mentions creating your own story as well. Your life is the canvas and the things in it that you encounter in it are there to color your art work and use as your pallet. It's saying the same thing just in different words. The thing about those universal truths......they're damn hard to argue against even though.....I still try on occasion just to test the fence. You'd think I'd learn. lol

Good advise all the way around.

Artist of Life

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 20:38

J, clearly we are on the same page in a lot of ways...I've often thought/said that we are the artists of our own lives. Let's paint a masterpiece :)

Coincidentally, I painted a new picture last night! Just needs a little more work...

Delphine

Masterpiece..

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 20:50

Delphine & J,

D, tell me what you do when your son is ready to escalate. J, can you tell me what you're feeling during times when your feeling angry, what do you need form others, what should we do. I see my step son unable to control his anger which starts from frustration and it escalates to a met down. My wife just lets him be, talks softly to him an waits patiently to regain his composure, she's awesome at this. But he's a child. What do you feel when your "escalating"?

Don't Engage D

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 21:27

D....when I'm angry, I feel anger. In fact, it's hard to feel anything BUT anger.....that's the problem. If that is all you feel and you can't stop feeling angry.....it comes out as soon as you open your mouth ( along with any other physical manifestations). Those physical manifestations are difficult for me not to show but I still try (fidgiting, clenching my hands, making facial expressions etc..) but opening my mouth and actually speaking I have a lot more control over. Right now......I'm focusing on that. If I wait long enough.....I stop feeling anger.

Don't Engage

Submitted by NonADHD on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 21:44

I think that's the shortest reply I've read from you, LOL ! So, I have a question and I don't mean to put you on the spot because of you've been diagnosed with ADHD, but I thank you and really appreciate your honesty. Is anger all you feel, everyday, is it always there, below the surface simmering? I've seen my wife in calmer states, where she seems to control it, my problem is when the things I would say made her defensive and then escalate. I've noticed as this forced me to remain quiet, I see her talking more and coming out of her she'll. Now, let me ask you this, in all honesty, how bad are your anger escalations? Are they like my wife's? She gets extremely loud, shouting, her whole body is Ina rage, the focus is on me, she is in my face throwing everything at me as far as words, she gets so angry she can get physical, a slap, a shove, throw things etc. A few days ago she exploded but left, after she sat on the floor wailing !! It's so hard to see and I feel terrible if I have been causing this. When I came home from bible study, I felt great, walks in, and sensed she was not talking, I said hello and she just looked at me, so I just walked by, I heard one of the dogs barking to come inside, she let them out, and she was replacing their bedding in their cage, when I let the dog in, she barked at me, was rude and had a ver condescending tone. So what did do, I said something, I said it nicely, but I said, don't talk too me that way, can't you be nice and bam, it started. No amount of kindness, gentleness would be able to stop the escalation now. I didn't think. Now I know, at this stage she cannot control her emotions. I just wish she would talk to me about it, instead of me doing it on here. ADHD is a constant state of control within the person, and others have no idea. I just want to be able to control my emotions so she doesn't escalate hers not rage. Thank you J !!

No Problem D

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 03/12/2016 - 23:51

I've been working on my anger for quite a while now (really paying attention to it and trying to get to the bottom of it) The ADHD component, is the only thing that is out of the norm. The reasons why I get angry or what causes me to feel angry is being disrespected. This is true for everyone and I'm no different there. In the past......especially before I was diagnosed, I couldn't explain it and it felt I had no control of it? That was the ADHD component when I compared myself to other people.

In reality....it had everything to do with my ability to control it, and my ability to express it.....which had everything to do with not feeling I had a place or right too since I did things (inadvertently because of my ADHD) that caused others to recoil or feel disrespected themselves and I agreed with them. I did do things that were disrespectful but not by intention or with any awareness of it at the time.

For example.

-Being late and making others wait. I think this is disrespectful and yet....I did it anyway? Not always, but sometimes. ouch!

-Not following through with things when people asked me to do for them. Not always, but sometimes....but in the moment....people still feel disrespected. ouch again!

-Forgetting to do things in general. That goes along with not following through for the same reason. Short term forgetfulness or being scattered ( like the nutty professor ) is annoying in general ( less disrespectful and more annoying) But still ouch on my part

The point here is that my ADHD is the cause for these things and they don't happen every time or every other time....but sometimes yes. And sometimes happens consistently without fail. Which means.....sometimes, consistently....I was disrespectful and annoying and I knew it. Pretty soon....it adds up and poeple start feeling more and more disrespected as time goes on.

Eventually....they start disrespecting you in return. Tit for tat. You know your not doing it on purpose or because you are a disrespectful person.....so you start beating yourself up about it and you feel horrible about yourself for it since you can't seem to make this all stop?

On the other hand....people on the receiving end are not so kind about it. Their reactions to you ARE on purpose and are directed directly on you. To say they are on purpose is not really accurate but the reaction are unmistakably directed at you and it feels like they are doing this intentionally because they are. They angry, annoyed and unashamedly hostile and that's because these behaviors are all disrespectful and you know it. What can you say?

That part you learn to live with but you still beat yourself up and are harder on yourself than you are on anyone else. That is....until they do it to you and feel no need to modify their behavior towards you since they feel entitled to do this because of the things you do. In other words....they become highly hypocritical by their own behavior ie: somewhat self righteous in thinking that because of why you do.....they are entitled to forego the boundaries of fairness or equity because you're now disqualified from receiving the same respect that they demand from you all because of something that you can't help or can't make it stop? If that makes sense.

It's really noticeable too. I've literally been with friends ....where someone (a stranger or a person we've just met or have to be around for some kind of function that you don't know) starts acting /saying disrespectful things towards me)....and my friend(s) will be the ones to jump in and call that person out just as a knee jerk reaction. As it seemed....if that person was doing that with them....they'd immediately feel compelled to say something (which they did) on my account because I was not doing anything and just taking it. This was a sign that was telling me that I was not expressing my anger from this kind of disrespect directly when I should have been doing it because I didn't feel I had a right to be angry and didn't feel I disserved to be respected the same as everyone else because I consistently failed to be consistent on my part to be respectful towards others and I knew it.

So mostly....I just beat myself up and didn't feel angry....but the second someone started playing both sides of the fence with me and feeling that entitled thing I just described (like they felt they had the right to disrespect me at will but I was not allowed the same latitude towards them......this really pissed me off and I would get very angry at them but more in the moment and not harboring it all the time.

For myself (and for someone who feels this kind of insecurity and inequity in status) .....there going to be more hyper sensitive and more reactive to perceived disrespectful behavior from others. And being that you don't express it when you should....or feel you deserve to be treated lesser than....when push comes to shove and someone overtly disrespectful....it comes out big and all at one since NOW in this case....you have every right to say something but it comes out wrong and it comes out big and it is completely out of scale. Not that it's inappropriate or not for good reason but more.....not appropriately done.

At this point....you can't win for losing. I was picturing your wife exploding and then sitting on the floor wailing? I have never been physical or slapped or hit any of women I have ever been with and I don't fall apart and wail.....but my own version of this would be exploding and then going off and beating myself up and feeling like giving up with no recourse available to me? In those moments.....I was doing this silently on the inside and just wanting to die. That's what it felt like in the past before I started working on this and discovering all the reasons why this kept happening?

Now with my wife however....I see the same thing you are describing and feel it coming out of my wife all the time. That under current or simmering you are describing is not something that fits me at all even in the past. At least in the past....expressing my anger when I needed to or not knowing how to do it well was the only problem When push comes to shove I expressed it alright and did a very good job of doing it! lol Not raging necessarily....but done in a highly assertive way. There is a difference and it's easy for me to tell between completely loosing all control (throwing things, slamming doors and screaming raging) or doing it in a way that is extremely pointed and aggressive but still being lucid and maintaining control at the same time. In other words....big and loud and still making sense and getting the message across in no uncertain terms. Not saying this is good either....just pointing out my definition of raging (temper tantrum and losing control) and not expressing it yet still expressing it and staying in control. More often than not in my past.....if I really lost it and went completely berserk....it was usually when no one was around and I would go outside and throw something or break something when no one else was looking. It was more rare (even then) to do this when anyone was there or when I was in direct contact with them. There were a few exceptions but this was not the rule for me. I felt so bad about myself when that happened....the amount of beating myself up about it really prevented it from happening more often I think. Like I said....I was way worse on myself....than I was on everyone else.

If you are to take anything away from this in comparison to your wife.....I think the most important thing you might consider is finding out what she is so angry about ...but at a time when it's safe to do so with her. It's the bottling it up or not feeling the right to be angry (for the reasons I said) that really prevent you from expressing when you should which only comes out later or leaks out all over the place a little at a time. Not doing it all at once when you should (or not being allowed to for whatever reason?) is why this happens and possibly how you could approach her in order to talk about this with her? I can't really speak to your wife and her issues since ADHD is only a part of this and everyone is different even with having ADHD.

I will say one thing though that makes me really irritated to this day....and that's being accused of things that I DIDN'T do! lol That one is a tough one to get past especially when it happens all the time. I think this is one of those things that other people do (non ADHD people) and don't really realize it. If you (the ADHD person fails enough times to be consistanty)...I think this sends a subliminal message that these things happen more than they really do. Some things are just mistakes or errors and are not ADHD as well so if you consider this and realize that you do things yourself that are more than just a little consistent and you are realizing are disrespectful (yet they are).....you might be pushing her buttons (or poking that hornets nest) and not even realizing it. If this is what you are doing and YOU don't realize it.....that would be a case to be made that she's reacting and angry and you are the thing that instigated it not her ADHD or anything that she's actually done? If your guilty before you even leave the starting gate and then your accused of doing something wrong when you haven't......I don't think its too far a stretch to imagine yourself getting angry if that were the case.

If there is anything I've learned from going to therapy and learning so much about myself (and other people)..... it's never just one (or two) things/ reasons when it comes to anything like this. I think that's the biggest mistake that I have made in my own thinking in the past that is no longer there in what I believe....about anything:)

Glad you are here J

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 03:43

As a very articulate and thoughtful ADHD person, your presence and input is invaluable for we who want to do our best with our ADHD loved ones.

I feel bad for my mom now, what she went through, being (as I strongly suspect) undiagnosed ADHD. Family was often angry and belittling of her. Later I replayed that (memory replaying in subconscious) with son's dad, another undiagnosed ADHD. I am determined to do better with my son. So glad I found this board.

Delphine

Thank you J

Submitted by NonADHD on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 08:10

I agree with Delphine, your insight helps us better understand what's going on inside the mind of ADHD, to some extent anyway. I think we should start a New Thread so we don't have to scroll down to find our spot. I will start it as the same subject Part 2. So please respond so we can continue. I need you guys to navigate through the and you both have given me so much to think about. I only pray for my wife to come home. Thank you.

D & Delphine Thank You Too

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 10:01

You may not realize it.....but the feedback and just telling your current "story":)....is so helpful. I keep mentioning differentiating or separating things out in order to see them? If I have learned anything from being here? People are people whether you have ADHD or not. Knowing you are only different in handful of ways due to ADHD (and which ways those are)....makes it easier to pin point where you need to focus on doing things differently as well.

Melissa mentioned something in her seminar lectures that is really true. In just those areas.....trying harder or just working harder is not going to be an effective way of changing things for the better. In those ADHD areas, it's not about working harder but working smarter and that's not something that your parents or anyone are going to be able to teach you the 'how to part" unless they know/knew that themselves. (another reason why non-spouses need to understand this too ). D....I think this is what you were referring to when mentioning using my father as an excuse. I understood what you meant and that's why I didn't take offense. I already know which is which in that case. I'm not doing that anymore (though I use to). That's how I knew the difference in what was happening with me now and being able to differentiate that from PTSD for example. This was unexplored territory for me until I came here and learned about this. It literally took comparing myself to the stories (with some help from my T answering some the questions that were raised in the process).....to be able to apply what I learned to what I already know and come to these determinations? After all.....even my T can't go inside me and tell ME what's happening....only I can do that.

Anyway....this is what you do to help me whether you know this or not? Thank you.

Reply to J...

Submitted by NonADHD on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 14:02

J ~

Thank you for that wonderful insight. I'm going to respond with some parallel to your story and mine and what I see with myself and my wife. I think anger is a normal reaction to anyone, with or without. But according to Dr, Berkely (authority on ADHD Youtube) anger is constant due to the inability to regulate emotions. I think regulation is the key. I also believe as I read on this forum that there are different levels of releasing the anger. In my case at home, the anger is rage, a tantrum, explosion of verbal assaults and physical.

Growing up with the sudden death of my mom (and Delphine, I'm revisiting abandonment, I think you're on to something), I had at first, fear and anxiety. This manifested into anger. I carried around with me a time bomb and when it went off, I would explode as well, I also did not understand how to turn it off. This lasted throughout my 30's. I held on to a few personal beliefs that began to interfere with where I was at that point in time. There must come a time when certain personal beliefs must be changed because they are not aligned properly with your current life style. One belief was this, I never let anyone give me the finger, yes I know very silly, but this was a belief that I held very strongly and if that person gave me the finger, they would not get away with it. I could be driving along with my wife and bam, somebody gave me the finger. At 6'2' 240lb at the time, I sae red, the anger would erupt and I was on my way to track them down, no matter what. Needless to say I found myself in some embarrassing situations because of that. My ex wife used an analogy that put everything into context, " you kill and ant, with a sledgehammer" !! Wow, that shocked me, because here I was a professional, an athlete, a musician and married and this just didn't seem tpo fit anymore, I was not controlling or regulating my emotions. At the time, pre psychology degrees, I had no idea how to regulate emotion. I never knew I was a slave to emotions. That I was held captive to my emotions. My discovery on my personality and mind set came from an unexpected source, Anthony Robbins. I started to look at changing my past behavior to reflect more of what I wanted to align with. That meant lots of self discovery, perfect for psychoanalysis, yes, I'm a Freudian at heart. One thing that caught my attention was hanging onto outdated beliefs that triggered anger. So I began to change my belief, you can give me the finger, just as long as you don't threaten me physical harm. So I began to change, if I got the finger, I turned up the radio, changed lanes, looked away and focused on something else and soon enough, wala !! My anger was going away. My whole purpose was to get rid of all my anger, no more, I wanted it gone. But for years it was repressed and I had many triggers.

J ~ To you disrespect is a huge belief, and to my wife, blame is huge to her. Every time she starts, the conversation automatically goes to blaming her, even if I never said anything near blame. I think everyone has lateness, disorganization, forgetfulness, etc. These can be normal to anyone. I think one main trait/symptom to ADHD is hyper sensitivity to external stimuli. This causes the stirring of emotions, anxiety, fear that leads to triggering that strong belief such as disrespect and blame. The inability to control and regulate these emotions are not just ADHD either but they are a key. We see everyday someone's inability to regulate their emotions, we see it crime, shootings, domestic violence etc. Im not saying all emotional release is a crime or leads to something dark and negative. A disorder can become extremely positive as well. In psychology Alfred Adler (Freud disciple) came up with the Theory of compensation. If someone has a weakness, say from childhood, like always being ill, they grow up strengthening another area in their life that exceeds the weaker one such as Oprah, she was abused as a child and became the richest woman in the world, or, a sick child becomes a doctor, a deaf child becomes a musician, an amputee becomes an Olympian, all compensation.

I understand expression and I think anger needs an outlet. I commend you J for letting it out alone. I use to do that as well, punching windows out, or kicking a defenseless cat (yes, I did), I did that until I found sports, such as football and baseball, I have a new release mechanism, and I could really take it out on others legally without harming anyone, accept my opponent. I found athletics and I still do, to this day workout hard, to release the boundless energy I have stored from my childhood anxiety.

What I see in denial is the inability to not only control and regulate emotions but to not do something about it. So when my wife and I are back, I will begin to work with her and us, to seek counsel and work towards managing our behavior during the sensitive times (thanks Delphine). I think the cause and affect, the residual emotion shame that comes from these outbursts hurt my wife. I can see now what happens after an outburst, she disappears for a while.

I went to church with my mother in law and we had an excellent discussion today. She told me that she believes her daughter and I can have a very loving and strong marriage that will be a testimony for others. That really got me going.

D... My Wife Broght Something My Attention

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 18:01

That I think might be getting overlooked. I wasn't talking about this thread or anything that has to do with it. What she mentioned had to do with being a woman and now shame plays out which a bit more complicated than it is for a man. She did this when we're actually having a contentious moment when I felt she was being unreasonable since I thought I was doing everything she had asked of me but she was still upset. This is not an ADHD thing but a gender one and the differences women experience compared to men. This is one of those things that is difficult for a man to really get a handle on.....myself included. There seems to be a pretty big gap in a mans experience and how that relates the same to a woman. Basically.....it doesn't , as my wife was trying to explain this to me ( not the first time) since I've heard this before long before meeting my wife.

This was over something that I over looked in my thinking but the problem that came from this was.....my wife was upset that I overlooked to think about this....but as I was trying to explain to her.....there was no way I could unless should explained it to me in advance. Even knowing her as well as I do.....I still can't have the experience of being a woman and know all the concerns related that I don't have? That's a source for never ending conflict right there! lol

I did tell her one thing though.....if there was anyone who might relate to the feeling of being lesser than in respect to treatment even if not the same as she knows this....it would be me in comparing some of these things to ADHD and the fallout from that as well? I thought about this when you mentioned your wife being closed off and not communicating much to tell you what she really wants and why? This IS the problem I face with my wife as well. So many times her expectations or why she gets upset....is not understanding or predicting these kinds of things ahead of time and then finding myself behind the 8 Ball even when I'm trying my best not to go there?

What I said about these things being about more than just one thing (ADHD) I think is really true. I just wanted to throw out yet another possibility to confuse the issue for you. You can thank me by telling me if she ever tells you exactly what it is? lol

Gender Differences

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 21:08

Well, I know I've recommended a ton of sources already, and here's another. I've found "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" by John Gray to be very helpful. Free PDF here: http://anakkusayang.com/Download/ladies.pdf

Hi Doug...My two cents worth....

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 17:18

Just reading your question to J, his response and the situation you documented about the dog issue....

The first thing J said is Key...Keeping it simple...Disrespect = anger....Wisdom in these situations calls for no engagement at all...The moment you walked in, looked at her, greeted her, and she did not speak. That was all you needed to know....We have to understand "unapproachable when we see it". When we unwisely allow ourselves to be comfortable enough to pass along a verbal comment to someone who is (in an unfit mind) incapable of receiving one...We play right into making their crap our own...So when you engaged with your comment you just triggered her reaction where she jumped into attack mode. Where she desired to be anyway.

A person who is angry, seething and miserable is just a time bomb seeking to destroy someone else's peace, because they have none!....So anything you could have done was going to be wrong....Not only that; when you defended yourself by asking her to be nice you stepped right into it....It didn't matter what you said...She had one thing for you, and when she heard your voice, you got it....There was no way out for you at that point....It goes against everything in us to not verbally seek peace, ask for peace, and point out dysfunction, but its stepping right into the bear trap that is waiting right after your effort......

Contentious: causing or likely to cause an argument; controversial....I think Proverbs say's head for the roof top or the dessert....I think we can take that as a DO NOT ENGAGE...:)

Great Point C,,,,

Submitted by NonADHD on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 19:02

C ~ you got it perfectly. It was a bear trap and I foolishly stepped into it. No blame on her, she is really stressing out. I like what you said ". When we unwisely allow ourselves to be comfortable enough to pass along a verbal comment to someone who is (in an unfit mind) incapable of receiving one". I was being disrespectful to her by not respecting where she was at. But, I'm just learning how to read where she is and control where I'm at. This is hard because one of us must change, and I'm working on me. That's what Delphine said in almost the same way. When I walked in, I should have been wise to "shut my mouth" because escalation mode is on and the unfit mind is triggered and ready for an attack, no matter what the response from me. She actually said something directly to your comment, " seeking to destroy someone else's peace", I just walked in from bible study, felt the Lord all over me, and in the attack she said, you're happy go lucky attitude ! MY crucial mistake, I defended myself and walked right into a full blown onslaught. As I was asking J about anger and it seething underneath. I know now, that when I hear the silence and see the tension, that's the moment when I should just be calm and do not engage. I need to not disengage, just not allow myself to get pulled into the vacuum waiting for me at all. I cant play into that, need to go into Ninja Mode or something.. This may be an ADHD symptom, in my home, it's the pink elephant. But guys, my wife has a very good reason, it's her son. Any woman would be in hyper Mamma Bear mode, and really hurting, the ADHD symptom, prohibits regulating the emotion that cannot hold back this extreme frustration. I'm getting this now. I don't want to defend myself, I want to defend her and help her get through the unimaginable anger that is lying underneath. I know when we get a good place, we will work on this together. Thank you

You get it...D

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 20:54

She may feel guilty being happy with you....Much of her anger may be at herself, because of what she has allowed to happen in her life....She is in a place she will have to work through...I'm so glad you see this and respect it....Just don't make yourself a target by trying to help when it's not wanted....I will pray with you for her.....

"May Be / Should Have Syndrome" C

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 13:23

C, you mentioned something here that sparked my attention. I know I mentioned this to you personally (at one point)...and it has to do with being forced to predict what your wife might want since this is the postilion you've been put into (not by choice on your part ). This has everything to do with being a victim and making other people responsible for you.

If you think about this for a moment......no one can Make you do anything right? However.....they can try! This is one of THOSE instances I think.

I've nicknamed it "May-be / Should Have Syndrome" because those are the two components (and the red flags or indicators) that tell you this is happening.

Basically....it's "non committal"..... and then being upset when things aren't the way you want them to be. My wife is famous for this and I have learned to steer clear of this by asking as many questions and prefacing everything I say to pin her down "ahead of time. " (or predicting the other person in advance)

The problem if you don't do this ( you're forced to do this if you want to stay out of trouble yourself) ..... is that you get stuck in the middle in between Maybe >>>> (you)<<<<<Should Have ...and then get blamed for what YOU should have done but didn't after the fact. Here's how it works......

(you) "Do you want to do X ? "

(your spouse) "I don't know? "I'm not sure?" "Kind of?" "Maybe?"

(you) "How about we do X since we're here right now....does that sound good to you?"

(your spouse) "Whatever? That's Fine "

(you) "Are you Fine with that?"

(your spouse) "I told you I'm fine didn't I?"

(you) "Okay good.....as long as you're Fine with it?

(your spouse) "Do I have to say it again? I already said I was Fine with it.... (geese!)

Later, now your there.......

(your spouse) "I don't like this at all.....you should have told me XXXXX. and XXXXX, and XXXXX and XXXXXX and XXXXXX and XXXXXX ....and you should have done XXXXX, and XXXXXX, and XXXXXX , and XXXXXXX.......so this wouldn't have happened. This is all your fault and now I'm unhappy!! (no.....you were already unhappy to begin with....you just weren't saying it or being honest about it ....that's was a lie)

I just painted a picture of someone who doesn't know what they want but are making you responsible for their being unhappy. This noncommittal (seemingly) easy going or laissez faire but actually really caring quite a bit attitude ....is a trap. It comes from not taking responsibility for what you want and putting that in the hands of the other person. The other person doesn't realize this at first until after the trap in sprung. It's a way of avoiding making a commitment or decision to anything that way it can never be your fault.

Watch for this one......it's a TRAP!!!!

Later....as it seems very apparent.....they care quite a bit but they weren't saying it up front or saying so to you. They avoided saying exactly what they wanted and forced you to make that decision. Then later......are unhappy with the decision that YOU were forced to make FOR THEM.

This is called refusal to take responsibility for yourself and FORCING others to be responsible for you by the omission of taking a position or stand and not communicating what you want ahead of time. This is not done intentionally I think....but the end results make it seem like it was on the other side. Lack of intention? I think it is.

This falls under the same category of "THINGS THAT ARE MISSING" (and making others responsible for you ) like:

Logic......"is it further to New York, or by plane?"

Lying (by "omission") ....."knowing the truth but just not saying it "

Denial........."not being able to see what's right in front of your face and denying it's existence for that reason ( even though other's can see it clearly )

Rationalizations.......or excuses

Ambivalence......two thoughts or ideas that are incongruent with one another ie: " playing both sides of the fence.... and....... wanting to have your cake and eat it too "

Anyway.....watch for this one. The big red flags are 'MAY- be and SHOULD- have"

(spouse) "You should have known!!!!!"

(you) "NO....I should NOT have known......I can't read minds, can YOU????"

This works for yourself as well. I catch myself here many time when the word "should" appears in my thought process. When ever "should" starts forming on your lips.....there is a May (I)(BE) somewhere in the past on your part.( almost always ) It's an easy one to spot working in both directions:)

Hind-Sight is 20/20....In-Sight is Golden

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 13:57

I just had this thought that goes along with what you can do about the "Maybe / Should Have Syndrome". If hindsight is 20/20 ( go with the known!! ) not against it. Use that for your insight and use that to your advantage in predicting these things and stopping them before they happen. Seems simple enough? Doing it always is not so easy. That takes a lot of practice and failure to get that skill down (working hard on this one as well) If anything.....you'll get good practice at learning how to get more insight and that is never a bad thing. I'd consider that as working on yourself? Think about it?

J...There's a reason this happens

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 17:52

Manipulation attempts need to be recognized, and commitments made in the preplanning stage....Self-absorbed people will always have a faulty set of priorities...(they will always put themselves first). When that happens, it causes them to put their marriage relationship (interdependent) on hold. So they can put everything about their life (the independent life they secretly desire to live; its not so secret to the spouse, but then the hiding is not for you..LOL), into another person, place or thing...If a person refuses to commit in the preplanning stage (red flag) it's probably a good idea to not take part....

Their are many other indicators where manipulation is being attempted, and we should be aware....My favorite is....."Well, If you loved me, you would do so and so" LOL...

Love for someone living with this kind of heart and mind makes Love about the next FIX they desire, not about the years of faithful commitment....The reason they seek you're approval, (by any means possible) is for their own protection (for appearances) so they want be exposed and lose the ability to hide their real motivation...

Be Wise as a Serpent!...But, harmless as a Dove:)

Magical Thinking I'm Afraid....C

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 12:33

This is one of the most helpful things you've said to me C. Really. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your wisdom here.

Their are many other indicators where manipulation is being attempted, and we should be aware....My favorite is....."Well, If you loved me, you would do so and so" LOL...

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten angry with my wife over this.....then later, I have to kick myself in the head for letting her get under my skin because this is really not what I am upset about. No mater what she say's like this.."if you really loved me you would.............." I know it's not true and I know she's doing this to get me to do something or manipulate me to get what she wants from me. I know it.....and yet I still get angry at her? But why?

There are times my wife scares me. Not just by her actions but from the things she says. This I saw early on and didn't pay close enough attention to something I should have. There you go C.....that maybe....I .....should have right there. This is the direct version that you can only be angry at one person for if this is the case.....yourself. In the same way that another person will try and pass this off onto you and make it your problem (like in my post to you about this).....we do this to ourselves when we are not paying close enough attention to things of importance ahead of time and find ourselves where we don't want to be?

Sometimes this is true for myself....and I an only blame myself when that happens. But sometimes like you and I are both saying here....if another person is doing this to themselves.....and you find out after the fact when it's already too late......who can you really be angry with? No one??? And that's really the most frustrating and anger producing thing of all ! Just like an earthquake or natural disaster.....who can you blame for a natural phenomenon if your house was suddenly swallowed up into a giant crack in the earth? The results could be devastating to your life in every way imaginable....but are you going to let that continue to ruin your life any more than it already has?

The problem is not my anger or that I don't have a good reason to BE angry..... What I'm really angry about and why, is at the heart of my anger which is less about my wife or myself but just from the circumstances that it puts us in very much like a disaster victim. And very much like D was describing himself in finding himself in a position that is not acceptable to him with little to no control over to do anything about it.

"Shit happens" as they say, and when it does.....our natural tendencies are to want to find something or someone to blame for if it cannot be explained in a way that can resolve it for us internally. From this, we look for some way to make it all go away so you won't feel the way you do anymore. The problem with these kinds of things is that there really is nothing you can do to change it or make it disappear. I know for myself.....I get so angry sometimes for no reason other than not liking the situation or the circumstance that I find myself in for no fault on anyones part including my own.

This is where magical thinking comes from. A way to explain the unexplainable and trying to put some kind of fault or blame onto something so you can put all your frustration and anger onto that person (or thing) instead of learning to live with what you don't want to live with if that makes sense? The problem is here.....this doesn't work and only makes matters worse in the long run. The need to blame and find fault is a human condition....but when it starts distorting reality as a defense from it is when it starts causing real problems in your relationships with others people who are not living in that distorted view of the world. In that case....this isn't EVERONE ELSES problem.....it's a personal problem for that person and no one else...and yet they just can't see this due to what they believe is true.

In reality for me......this is what I have no control over with my wife too "Self-absorbed people will always have a faulty set of priorities...(they will always put themselves first)."

I have a pretty good idea of why this happens and it comes right down to really poor self esteem...but along with that comes a fair amount of magical thinking. Her goals for herself are not realistic and based on what she fiercely defends and holds true to what she calls her "dreams". She wants her "dreams" to be "reality " with no logical path or "real world plan" to get her there.

This....is what she is dependent on me to do for her and that responsibility, she keeps trying to pass off onto me and it's simply not possible for me to do and never was in the first place but she cannot allow herself to see outside of this which would mean letting go of her dreams.( or fantasy world she's created and put me into)

Somehow....I am suppose to make magic happen which was never possible to begin with. It's in her language and in the way she thinks and see's thing and it comes out all the time. If there was any failure on my part from the very beginning of our relationship...it was from my not understanding or interpreting these things "for her" right from the start with her and I cannot blame or fault her for that. They were there and I heard them but I didn't understand what they meant until after we were committed to each other.

This is that "faulty set of priorities" you are talking about. But my wife has a right to believe wht ever she wants and if her dreams are what keeps her going to avoid seeing herself and protect her from the reality of her life....who am I to say differently and try and convince her she is wrong? As I see this now.....I had no need to do that until I became one of the characters in her dream that was not playing my part as she had created for me which was as completely unrealistic and unattainable as the dream itself. If you understand what magical thinking is......

Magical thinking is defined as believing that one event happens as a result of another without a plausible link of causation. For example: "I got up on the left side of the bed today; therefore it will rain." The problem with this definition, however, is that exactly what constitutes "a plausible link of causation" can be difficult to pin down. If we were to take this phrase to its logical extreme, we'd have to consider a belief in anything that hasn't been scientifically proven to represent magical thinking. On the other hand, rejecting the use of any and all criteria with which to judge cause and effect leaves us vulnerable to believing that anything can cause anything—or even worse, that an effect can occur without a cause at all.

So C.....is it that (we) need to judge or put labels on things so we can be angry at them for something that cannot be explained? Is your wife a self absorbed person? Or is it that what she believes is at the cause for it and nothing else? If this is what people do (all of us) when we have a burning need to explain the unexplainable that is causing us to have pain and suffering by creating some kind of link or causation that is not founded in reality.......who can we really blame or judge here......the person.....or the belief....and the reason they have it? Which one is the cause and then who do we blame for that? No one is the answer and yet that answer is unacceptable to us? It's the inability to find something to blame and the feeling of helplessness that this creates in us is really at the source for ourselves and for everyone no matter who you are.

In the case of my wife for example....between the two of us.......I'm the one who needs to be understanding of this not her. I know this and believe it's what is really happening and yet I still find this unacceptable and still try to find fault or blame to get rid of my own feeling the same way she is trying to do.....but I know better....and she doesn't.

If you can't stand up for the people you love when you know something they don't and can't be the bigger person when someone weaker than you crying for help.....who's going to be there when you need someone for the same reason when it's your turn at bat?

I commend Rosered for her courage and steadfastness in the face of a situation that was intolerable for as long as she did. But at some time she had to make a decision and cut her losses. Who can really be blamed for that? His parents? His ADHD? Him. Or was that her character and doing the right thing or something she believed in was the cause for why she chose to endure this? This is the only thing that stands out from her story and it's her character that I see when I read her post?

Test of Fire as I interpret this from Bible from my perspective means......that, it's easy to do things when we have choices to pick from. And we all are going to pick the choice that is easiest for us and use the path of least resistance to get there. Test of fire isn't talking about these times. Test of Fire means making the choice to do something that goes against what we want for ourselves for the good of someone else who's needs are in conflict with our own.

And sometimes, in the case of why magical thinking exists...there are times when we have no other option (possibly only one ) that is causing us to suffer at our own hands because we have to accept something that will cause us to suffer even more when we face reality and meet it head on.

Having said that.....I can relate my own experience with opening my eyes and seeing past the denial that was there to protect me from feeling the pain of having to admit that something was wrong with me that I could not fix that was staring me right in the face but I could not see it. When that happens.....it leaves you vulnerable and open for others to use against you if they choose. The reality is that some people will do this and they did as confirmation of my fears. This I learned one thing from.....this is not who I am and not who I want to be.

Taking that road and choosing not to be in denial anymore is equivalent to Eve biting the apple from the tree of knowledge. With that knowledge comes a responsibility to others and all innocence from ignorance is no longer applicable to you anymore. A person can only be guilty for weakness due to a lack of courage out of fear and ignorance for pain and suffering that happen to others..... who turns away and allows it to happen out of the same ignorance and fear.

The worst offender and the only one to cast any blame or shame onto....is the one is the stronger person with the knowledge or advantage to know the difference....and uses that advantage and their power to use over another person who is weaker of does not know the difference for their own personal gain. I see myself as this person who knows the difference in comparison to my wife and this is where a choice needs to made between myself and another person.

Between the two.....the person who knows the difference and does nothing about it is the one who fails and the only one at fault if that is the case. This person.....I am not and therefore.....I have a responsibility to put myself aside and do what I know is right despite the pain that this will cause me no matter what excuse I can come up with to talk myself out of it.

Test of fire means.....when you have no other options available to you. When it's the last ONE you want for yourself and also the most difficult, least desirable choice to make between turning away and doing nothing or choosing not to.... at the greatest cost to yourself on someone else's behalf.... you do this because they do not possess the strength or the ability that you have and you know it's the right thing to do. That's test and proof of each persons work right there IMHO.

As usual J you took it apart very well..:)

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 18:37

My comment isn't about anyone it's about everyone...If I right a comment like you hilighted and said it doesn't pertain to me at times in my life...What does that say about me? LOL...You made ton's of great points, and ask ton's of great questions....I will answer this away...If I give you openness and truthfulness I don't need to hide, you understand me and nothing else needs to be said....But how many of us can say to our spouse or anyone for that matter.....Hey, I'm wanting my own selfish way in this instant, about this matter...So the question I'm fixing to ask you isn't open ended even though my first attempt to manipulate you will sound open ended....But the reality of it is I'm fixing to do this thing, and I really don't care what you think about it... Why would I get mad about that? I know exactly where I stand....I can come along or I can stay....But it's crystal clear its important to you, you've made a firm decision that isn't debatable, and if you are living your going or doing, considering what the subject is....

All attempts of seeking our spouse to do something isn't manipulation, there just...Hey I would like to do something with you, what do you think about this? But see the difference? This is a unity statement about the two? The two having an equal action as one....And when we approach things in this manner...Open, willing to hear, willing to summit, willing to share....This is healthy....Completely opposite from selfishness, or my way or the highway! Anger to me in these situation comes from two sources....One just like you said....If you fail to be aware...and fall into the argument trap...We get pissed at ourselves for not recognizing it and calmly walk away after one kind reply.....Secondly, if I'm attempting the manipulation, and you hold your ground, the only alternative left for me is to get mad and cut you off and make you out to be selfish and bad, because you wouldn't give in to my attempt....This is the one where it take a big person to take the verbal beating (don't try to save their life) unjustly....But this is also the one that brings light and healing also..... C

Lets talk about the working through period after the tantrum..

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 14:40

I think you're right that my wife is in a place she needs to work though. I have seen this pattern for 2 years, however, the incident just before Christmas sent her into a completely different place, her silence and distance was extremely long. When she goes here, she doesn't want to talk to anyone. She texted my mother in law (her mom) and said 'don't text me", so I know I'm not the only one and we know she's need time. My questions is, I wanted to leave her on the kitchen counter, a hand written note apologizing for using harsh language the other night and to tell her that I will be more sensitive to her moods and remain silent, and that I would rather be with her and not speak one word, then to be without her. I just don't know if the timing is right or I should wait. I want her to know I'm thinking about her. Your thoughts? My mother in law and I had a great talk this weekend and she feels confident that, we can have a strong marriage, she see's the love we have for one another and we both just need to get through these issues. I need to hear this to sooth the abandonment anxiety I have. I'm prepared to allow my wife as much time as she needs to heal. We had that great discussion last Sunday and if I can acknowledge when she is angry and ready to escalate and like you, just learn to not engage, we may get past sensitive time and get to more stable ground.

What if the time she needs to

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 14:45

What if the time she needs to "heal" is forever? Can you live with that?

heal forever...

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 14:55

Rosered,

I don't understand the question. Will she ever come out of her pain? Or , remain distant fom me? I know my wife has been fine when we I was working and she didn't feel the financial pressure. I believe that's the biggest issue. Once things change I know she will be in a better place, less stress. She was just before Christmas. His father is being a manipulator and she is not making enough money to clear COBRA, which takes the biggest hit. I'm stuck and my hands are tied. I'm home right now applying for position in LinkedIn and getting interviews set up, byt hey are not as many as I like. She will never completely heal unless we have my step son back, or that his father plays fair and doesn't play games of manipulation and control. To him, his son is a pawn and he thinks he's won. My wife and I, see the damage this is doing to her son and her. I can't believe the courts actually allowed this to happen. It all has hurt her. I can live with her healing forever, as long as I'm here and besides her.

I asked my question because I

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 15:06

I asked my question because I think it's a possibility that your wife's silence might be, for her and you, the norm, not the exception. You've said that A, B, and C are causing your wife's anger and silence. A, B, and C might continue. Or they might go away, but then stressors D, E, and F will appear. Because that's life. and I'm wondering how you feel about living your entire life with a person whose standard behavior is to shut out you and other people.

Standard Behavior..

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 15:32

Rosered,

I don't really know. I honestly don't think that will happen. My wife has a wonderful side of hers that I can't imagine would just disappear. I know, there are a few major issues that's causing her to be sensitive and angry right now, she's questioning everything and is distraught. . Once I get back to work, with good benefits this will help tremendously. My wife is carrying a huge burden, financial and her son. But she is strong. Now, if for some reason she maintains this behavior just with me, well then, I will have to seriously address our future. But I know that she wants a family for her son and we are it. I have such a strong bond with him, he's like my son. I know that she would not jeopardize that, unless I was being harmful. I'm frustrated because I can't get anything to stick on these interviews. The current HR/interviewing process is a disaster. Companies refuse to re-organize and automate the whole process. I get interviews with such promise, and then nothing, no follow up. Frustrating. I;m in the middle of a storm right now. The job on one end and my wife on the other. If she would just come out of her state and engage me. She's overwhelmed.

I hope you get a job and that

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 15:35

I hope you get a job and that your wife thaws, both very soon. My comments are just words from the wise and weary. My husband's standard operating procedure is to shut down communication, and this has gone on for weeks and months at a time. It stinks and it never gets better.

SOP...

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 15:43

When you say shut down, what does that mean, Does he talk to you, make conversation, text you, or does he disengage, another room, same room? It's chilling that my wife can go days, weeks without talking now. But I'm not taking it personally, I did. But I know the situation is extremely hard on her and I think ADHD compounds the issues and creates depression, anxiety etc. I feel terrible that Im partially to blame and I should be keeping her out of this. What's sad for m, is our intimacy has disappeared for months !!! This has never happened to me, never. I have never been shut out like this. In the beginning we discussed this and I told her that no matter how severe the arguments, we do not bring it to the bedroom. Well, that just never happened. I'm stunned over this. Here I am, I love my wife, I know she loves me, but she is in a depressive state, disengagement, not just from me, her mom as well. ADHD is an illness and I'm smack in the middle. I didnt intend to get married to be alone.

Our situation is unusual, but

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 15:55

Our situation is unusual, but I offer it up as an example of what can happen. My husband began what was supposed to be a temporary position as his elderly parents' caregiver 4 1/2 years ago. They live in a city 150 miles from our home. My husband almost never initiates communication, whether by phone, email, text message, or U.S. mail. He occasionally, but still very rarely, responds to the messages I send, the letters I write, and the voicemail messages I leave for him. The position is ongoing and he's now there all the time, mainly because his parents' health is so precarious. But that leaves me very rarely seeing him and very rarely hearing from him. I find the situation intolerable and have, in fact, filed for divorce. I don't know if my husband likes the situation, but obviously, he finds it tolerable at some level that I don't.

Unbearable..

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 16:08

RoseRed,

Yes, that is very unusual, and I would be gone, for sanity purposes. How long have you been married? Why do you stay? I can see if your both talking, texting etc. But to be disengaged, no way. How long has it been since you talked and even been together intimately? In some states, you may legally seperated. Have you considered seeing other men, as friends or even more? Do you expect this to change when and if his parents leave this world. How is your health, your confidence, do you work? Don't lose your life waiting. Life is a precious thing to waste. Are you faithful?

Trust me, my eyes are on my situation, this is not my first rodeo. If push comes to shove, I can walk and start over. Meeting woman, starting relationships I know has never been an issue with me. However, I'm sworn to my oath , to God's covenant and to to stick this out and get this back on track, I adore and love the woman I married and all I want is to be the guy to make unite them. I have never had such wonderful intimacy before, we are really good together. I'm not running. I also meet and talk to a few personal people, key people, wide people who see's our situation and understand it, and they are all in favor of it. My wife is a family person, it's so important to her, so I know our marriage is important, it just needs tweeking. I'm an Italian from New Jersey, she is Georgian Peach with an attitude, I'm dynamic and she is reserved, yet strong. We get things done and we both like that. ADHD and it's symptoms are in the way of normal growing pains in a marriage and or relationship. I have issues as well, but I can learn and control my emotions. I never allow them to depress me nor shut people out.

Rosered--my mom was like that

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 17:41

After I moved out of the family home...I can count on the fingers of one hand the times she would initiate contact. This is one of the things that recently convinced me she had undiagnosed ADHD. She was the same with my four siblings. Didn't write or call.

My ADHD son can let a good amount of time go by without initiating contact. But when he does, it is special. He doesn't forget birthdays, Mother's Day or other special occasions. If your husband does forget those...I think you are right to file for divorce.

Delphine

D As I'm Reading This.....

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 17:14

I'm getting a clearer picture here myself. You've got multiple fronts your trying to fight and the only thing you've said so far that is really clear is "my hands are tied." I don't know about you....but I hate this feeling....it would drive me crazy having to stay this way forever? But will it be forever when things change which it sounds like....something is going to happen and what ever happens will happen with your input or not?

Out of everything that is going on here.....what can you really do about any of it?

-what the courts decide?

-your wife's EX using the system to his advantage (legally)

-using this timing to gain control and take advantage for his own self interest

-using that to take advantage to gain control over your wife

-using that to take advantage to gain control over your step son

-using that to take advantage to gain control period. It sounds like this is what he does? You can't stop him, but you can not let that interfere with your relationship with your wife? (which it sounds like this is what he is doing? If you want to get pissed at someone like this.....the best thing to do is not let them affect you and control what you do? In essence.....this is what they want. Really.....some people get their jolly's by controlling other people even if they have no interest in your step son for example and his well being. Control by remote control? If you want to retaliate against this.....go the other direction and don't let it affect you.....you'll be the winner here if you can do that. It's likely he's trying to get some kind of money from the state for care taking of your step son (or some kind of financial benefit for himself).....from what you've said about him.....I can see where that might be going. Nothing you can do to stop him if he's found a way to do this? Just a heads up here if you haven't thought about this? ( I don't remember if you mentioned this or not?)

-the fact that your wife is not making enough money (to satisfy the insurance COBRA )?

-the fact that you don't have a job (or income) but are working on it but that hasn't happened yet?

-the relationship between your wife and her EX?

-the relationship between your wife and her son?

-the relationship between you and your wife?

-the relationship between you and your step son?

What can be done about any one of those things what is possible for you to do here? It sounds like your hands are tied except for the parts that include you only? If I were you.....I would focus on doing your part the best you can and let the parts you have no control over alone and not focus on those. That's what I would do and just wait to see what happens with the rest. Something will happen guaranteed but what ever that is is not your fight unless you make it yours?

Trying to get in between any of those other parts is only putting yourself in harms way I think. Doing nothing and not going there would be a wise move to make and just try and be as understanding and supportive of the your wife as much as possible. This might mean putting your own needs aside for a while and taking a back seat here until the dust settles and these battles your wife has found herself in get resolved? It sounds like this is really what she needs from you right now instead of adding more fighting between you and her to the list? Just my two bits?

Thanks J..

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 16:22

I agree with you. I can only do what I can do, that sucks ! It's like being in a lifeboat and watching the ship going down with people onboard and there's nothing you can do. I'm watching my wife going through this, being manipulated, watching in agony as her son struggles without her, and me, with no job. It;s frustrating but heres what I'm doing. I'm very active with learning to fellowship and build a coalition with other Christian men, praying and being consistent with church. I haven't been this active in many years. I know we need God in our marriage, at the center, I believe this. I'm on LinkedIn and I post and apply to so many jobs I want to throw up. All I want is one. I have 14 years experience managing operations for Fortune 10 companies. I have a graduate degree and solid skills in program, project, sales, customer service, technology management. The last 2 weeks have picked up with activity and interviews, mainly phone, but nothing yet ! I know it will come from left field, out of the blue, bang !!! I believe that God is working on me, making me to focus on him and let him do it. That has always been hard for me since I did everything and made things happen. I came here to marry my wife. Now, I feel useless, trapped, I can't move. But I need to walk my talk. If I'm believing then I need to give to Him. All of it, even as I watch my wife suffer. It would be easier to take a bullet, step in front of a train for her, save her from a burning building to show her what I would do, but this !!!!! Waiting on the Lord, is the hardest thing that I have ever encountered. But J, I will tell you this my dear friend, that as soon as something changes, the minute it does, you will know.

"Whatsoever things you pray and ask for...

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 17:53

...believe you have them and you shall receive." (Mark 11:24) D, you need to get into the feeling-state of already having the perfect job. If you are constantly feeling frustrated with this process, it will only get in the way of the manifestation. Yes, let go and let God!

Also let go of your marriage difficulties. It might actually be best to remain at your mother-in-law's for the time being. You may find it easier to love her and feel peace with her from a distance? Just a thought!

Delphine

Manifestation...

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 18:42

Delphine,

Can you elaborate on this theory. How do you let go, no concern, no thought, no responsibility with someone you know you need to make happen. Why doesn't God let you do your part, how do I step a side and let go? How am I interfering with God's work? Let go of my marriage difficulties as well, it's so hard. I feel there's something I should be doing. Having faith, believing, letting go, surrender is so aethereal....it's a theory, a concept that doesn't have any physical body. I know that if I can do that, He may do something. But mu obsession and possession traits are kicking in, my minds is wrapped around it, I own it, it's my responsibility, my problem to solve....how do I let go????

You can do it, D

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 19:31

You ask how can you let go and let God. D, this is what Jesus' teachings are all about. If you are serious about your faith, this is where the rubber hits the road!

The teachings of Catherine Ponder are Bible-based, and her work has been one of my guiding lights. When my son's dad and I separated and were sharing custody of our son, we went through a period where he and son's stepmom were not cooperating with our visitation agreement--similar to the situation your wife is in with her ex. Catherine Ponder's work helped me hold on to faith, and got me through. I got a lawyer who accepted my case pro bono. We went into mediation and hammered out a binding agreement. So...letting go doesn't mean you don't take action. But getting centered, peaceful and hopeful is primary. Then you can take inspired, appropriate action.

A couple of links:
http://www.law-of-attraction-haven.com/support-files/open-your-mind-to-r...

http://excellerated.com/myteleclass/Money-Me-Prosperity.pdf

Letting Go....

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:08

Thank you Delphine,

I will check her out and the links as well. My wife is going through an awful time with her sons dad and step mom. The dad is a jerk/joke, a real narcissist with a BULLY attitude, he uses woman. He's great if you meet him but watch out. My wife is so hurt by the way they treat her, all she does is run around after her sons appointments, she must play by there rules. If it was her with primary, she would allow them to keep her son an extra day, bring him back late, whatever they needed. But that's not the case with my wife, they are strict with return time, child support, medical coverage, and they strong arm her, and she (step mom) is a pediatrician, a real snot. It all makes it hard for her to be with him and for him. All he wants is his mom....so when she's angry and ready to escalate, I need to chill out and just let her vent, even if its on me..

Help...

Submitted by NonADHD on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 00:32

I think this is over..I can't sleep and I'm at mother in laws house....I just can't understand how cruel and insensitive my wife is being towards me...Is there someone else ???? Does she hate me and doesn't want me there???? This weekend my step an should be there...if she reaches out to me, I'm not going there...I may tell her to tell him that I will not be coming back...let her feel the pain she is dishing out...Her actions are going back fire on her....I have no leverage here....I don't know what to do....There is no answer from above and according to Liz, I'm not going to live like this...I can't believe she would want a divorce...that will be three for her and a son with someone she didn't marry...what gets me is, no one would give a damn...HELP

Some thoughts

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 01:37

Doug,

At days end, when push comes to shove, you can only take all the information you have.......and make a choice. I can share what works for me, what brings me joy.....but I cannot tell you what you should do. Because what works for me may not work for you. How will you know when you find the right path? You will feel free, content, happy, and you won't be pulling your hair out.

I spent many years of my early life knowing things were not right and knowing I had problems. And I read, and prayed, and tried 500 different things, and was desperate for someone- anyone - to make it all better. I got told many things that ended up being ridiculous. Now I really have internal peace. I know it. I got a few character flaws that need improving, but other than that, I have joy.

I am disappointed at where my marriage is. I am doing what I can, and "no", I really can do nothing more.

I remember a session with my psychiatrist, well over 30 years ago. I struggled with anorexia and bulimia. My spouse- who was then just my 'friend' said something in the session, and the psychiatrist said, " You think you can make her eat? Go adead. Let me see you do it."

Of course, he could not. I cannot make my spouse want to find joy, I could not make my Pops stop drinking, I cannot make people who do not like me, change their mind and see my great value.

Nope, I can just embrace my own good stuff, and hope they may see. And if they do not, I will cry a river, I will build a bridge, and I will stroll over it to a better place..

With sincerity,

Liz

"Take Care of Your Person"

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 01:42

Those words were said (not by me) to someone I knew who was going through a lot of stress in his relationship with his wife.

I think it's wise advice. Do the things you know will help you feel better. When there is not much you can do to change a situation, at least you can eat well, exercise, breathe.

NonADHD - It's not their business

Submitted by jennalemone on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 10:20

I have made so many decisions based on how my decisions would affect my loved ones. Also, I wanted to do what was "right" and good. As I reflect on my life and those around me, I realize a truth ""no one would give a damn". We are not rewarded for thoughtful sacrifices. I don't say this sarcastically, I mean exactly that. NO ONE WOULD GIVE A DAMN. Those who I know who have left spouses and children are just as accepted as those who have quietly put up with stuff. Actually those who have walked the difficult path of leaving and fighting their way out of a difficult situation are looked up to as strong and dignified. I was an obedient child. I was an obedient servant of my beliefs. It didn't work in this situation. A belief that was not bestowed upon me in my early life and education was that of belief in my self, integrity to my self, strength and courage to choose my path for the one life that I will have with me forever....me. I still have not figured how to get a strongly embedded belief out of me....that of sacrificial love. I immediately feel selfish if I make decisions based on what I WANT. I got the message somewhere in growing up that I want not supposed to WANT anything for myself but to freely GIVE to others. I didn't have wants. I shunned my own needs...no I did not permit myself to acknowledge needs. So I have not got what I wanted, what I needed, or a life of integrity. I tried to make a difficult situation work at my own expense and it didn't work out for me. AND NO ONE GIVES A DAMN. Again, I say this not sarcastically but it is the truth. People are not concerned about my decisions or my past. Just in the present if I am good to them at the present moment. Most people forgive.

My point is to you NonADHD, we must live life for our own story. Spouses and children and extended family and friends may have a rough patch for a time, but in the end it is their life to live. We can't teach our children how to have integrity and dignity if we allow ourselves to give ourselves away to a lost cause. It is what I did. Learn from me.

I understand what you're

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 15:30

I understand what you're going through, nonadhd, having felt this way nearly every day for the past several years. I know it might briefly hurt more if our spouses spoke to us and told us the truth (because the truth might be unpleasant), but the silence is worse.

No...

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 18:29

...she doesn't hate you. There isn't someone else. She is just distracted and unable to give you her attention right now. She's hyperfocusing on the situation with her son.

Delphine, Liz, RoseRed, Jenna, C, J...Thank you

Submitted by NonADHD on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 20:56

Thank you all so much, what great support. I throw out hugs and kisses to all of you, well accept J & C, just handshakes. I'm so sorry, but I had a melt down, I couldn't sleep. My mother in law came outside, she is so supportive. I was like, Mom, is this over?? She said no, just be patient and giver time. Delphine, thank you for your last reply, that made so much sense. Liz, thank you for ability to deal with your situation and prepping me for certain scenarios if they arise. I understand that what works for you, may not work for me. But I'm reading your testimony and where you are mentally. You provide direct and sometimes, hard acceptance of what can be. The good news, I had three interviews today, 2 phone screens and 1 face to face in Atlanta. Now get this, this is my situation, I think God may have a sense of humor, I got the job in Atlanta, less money, and further drive, it took 2 hours to get here. But I will email my interviewer and negotiate, if he agrees, I may have income. The others went great, 1 sales manager, 1 account manager, but, they are in the beginnings of interviews. Still no word on my wife. Silence, disengagement. But I like Delphine's insight and I will sleep on this tonight. I want you all to know that your testimonies, your current situations, your marriage, the way you deal with this is so much appreciated. You have helped me to cope in a terrible time. To be rejected, shut out and ignored by the woman who holds your heart in her hands is an eye opening experience and a hard dose of reality. I want to believe in love. I want to be in love and experience growing and building together. I can't imagine it was for only 2 years. Thank you all !!

Welcome D

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 22:59

Glad our input was helpful to you. Yes, feeling into where your wife is at, I think it is just typical ADHD distraction. I guess I am an old hand at dealing with this since my mom was like that, my son's father, and now my son.

Congrats on the job offer, and glad your MIL remains supportive. She is a blessing, for sure.

Delphine

Keep looking up!

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 03/15/2016 - 23:48

Getting back to work will be huge therapy...We men are created (cursed) to work and be providers...It will occupy your mind in a constructive way. It's not good to think to much on what we can do nothing about....I KNOW :)

Blessings Friend....

Expectations..

Submitted by NonADHD on Wed, 03/16/2016 - 05:51

Delphine,

I think you may be right. Considering her downtime after each episode. Being away really helps. I think she doesn't need my interference. I seem to catalyze her anger when I'm there. Since Christmas, she hasn't been able to get back to a warm and open state. I feel that each day that passes, she may get into a better state. What do you think my expectations should be? It would be very good for us, if she reached out to me.

Let Go

Submitted by Delphine on Wed, 03/16/2016 - 06:35

D, I can only repeat what I said before--let go and let God. Get centered and focus on YOU, Find ways to be happy without her. I know it's a challenge, but it's the only way to go.

Your wife may never be as present in the relationship as you would like. Expectations only provide a framework for disappointment, especially when dealing with something like ADHD. Maybe it is time to funnel some of that love you have for your elusive wife, toward yourself? We all need to learn to love ourselves and be our own best friend. And this will make you more attractive and lovable to others, as well.

I'd like to share these words on relationship, from one of my favorite spiritual sources:

"Do you know the relationship that you are all looking for? Do you know what it really is?

You want the relationship between you and you. And when you meet a person who
looks fondly at you, or who is appreciative of you, or someone you look fondly
upon, or someone you appreciate, it just hooks you up to your Inner Being, which
is what you want all along.

So the relationship you are all looking for is the relationship between you and you. And everything else is just helpful in that, really.

Don't you find that interesting? That what you really want is a reason to
vibrationally connect with who you really are.

And so, you ask so much of people because you say to them, "You need to be the one who causes me to feel good." And what we want to say to all of you is:

If any of you are without the relationship of your dreams right now, that's a wonderful thing. Because now you have an opportunity to work on the relationship that really matters first and foremost. And then, in that connection, the relationship of your dreams will come.

But you are going to discover the relationship of your dreams is really your own Inner Being. It's that infusion of clarity and confidence and wellness, that's what you are reaching for.

And it is nice to have a human friend who holds you as their object of attention and adores you right into your connection. But we want you experience greater independence than that. We want you to say to your lovers, "I love you, but I don't live for you. Because Source Energy flows through me. You are a catalyst to my wellbeing, but you are not essential to my wellbeing. Because I've got that figured out on my own. I have reached for thoughts that give me relief.
And I have relieved myself all the way into my full connection of who I really am. And now we can just dance and play together."

Can you feel how you take them off the hook? In other words, do you know how many men would flock to you.? (ALL OF THEM!) .if they knew that you would allow them to be as they are and you would not hold them responsible for your happiness.

That's what everyone wants. How much bondage is there in believing that your happiness depends on me, so I've got to figure out what you want, and stand on my head in all those different ways, and it's not even possible!

The greatest gift you can give anyone is to be happy. And we will take that further. The greatest gift you can give to any partner, past, present or future is to be so connected with who you truly are that they are irrelevant to your connection. And when they are irrelevant to your connection, then you are going to have a really good time together."

Keep Your Eye On The Prize....D

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 03/16/2016 - 09:11

D......You mentioned playing Baseball when you were younger? (if I recall?). Me too. I can't imagine someone playing ball and not hearing those little nuggets of wisdom thrown at you constantly by your coaches and then in turn, by your team mates for all good reasons because they pretty much say it all. Tacit understanding? ha ha!

"Be the Ball...D....Batter UP!"

And good luck and God speed to you,

If you read this post you

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 18:13

If you read this post you wrote like you were a fly on the wall, and you didn't know Doug at all you would (with your education, training and experience) say...Doug...all your questions are about "What action can I take"....

Do you remember the last line of my post....It goes against OUR NATURE...LOL...to not fix, show love, help, engage in some way!....Lord we want to help!!! LOL....(Not making light, just laughing at myself)...There isn't anything you can do outside of...Daily recognizing and dealing with your own insecurities...(abandonment?,you know God loves you with the full force of his love, so get over that) Recognize the frail human truths in this kind of situation....Your hurting for her, you desire her, you hate living in this manner, It's the last thing you would choose!....You will be fine....Stay in the word, and stay humble, don't over think it....You are growing spiritually. The night always comes before the sunrise....The seed of the tomato plant must fall into the ground and die, before you have a ripe juice tomato....

Brother u can make it!

Words of encouragement..

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 18:34

Thank you C, that was awesome and inspiring. I need the support. You know this is a severe form of rejection. It;s frightening being vulnerable and in love, my wife hasn't said those three words to me since December. If I was single and this was happening, I'd walk away by now. But, I'm married, committed and deeply afraid of what RoseRed said, am I prepared if this is the norm?

Here for you!

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 18:50

(You know this is a severe form of rejection.)

It is indeed!... but let us not forget our vows....For better or worse, in sickness and in health, until death we do part....Your wife is bearing an emotional load (sickness) she wasn't created to have to bear...So, being long suffering, and supportive is your call my Dear Brother...Just like J so wisely put it....Please don't make it worse...

God will be your all in all...The fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man avails much....

And don't you forget it...:)

Thank you C...

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 19:03

You are so right In for a penny, in for a pound !! My mother in law said something to me last year when we had a similar episode. She said what would you do if she was in a severe car accident? Would you walk away? You put it so eloquently, 'your wife is bearing an emotional load that she shouldn't have to bear"...so I just stand by? I want to be there, right there with her, taking the brunt....I guess your right, I should focused on me and doing all that I can do, with God's help to get back to work. 2 interviews tomorrow....Thank you

Marriage is a covenant between three

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:02

Doug,

I am not a believer that one spouse or the other having a sexual affair is the only grounds for divorce.

Two people stand on an altar and make a covenant between themselves and God. One side with God cannot make a marriage work, hard as a person may want it to be so. I do not agree in any way shape or form that a car accident or terminal medical diagnosis is the same situation as we have been discussing here, especially in this thread.

Both sides are capable of stating boundaries and making choices. We really are not in control of the other person. A marriage vow is not a condemnation to a life of misery.

We are in control of ourselves. And we indeed can make a choice to live in a difficult situation. The work will then be fully how can you live in the same space as a person who is unwilling to hear you? Or care about what you think? Or how you feel?

We each deserve to be happy, and fulfilled, and part of a partnership.

As I see it.

Very truly,

Liz

Liz, you said what I've been

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:03

Liz, you said what I've been thinking, but much more eloquently. Thank you.

Liz..I dont want to go there...Yet !

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:19

Liz,

I understand, I can get mad, very upset and even leave this place. I would'nt have tolerated this before I came. I'm just not ready to go there. I agree, it sucks that my wife is turning her back, wallowing in her misery, what about mine. My faith and trust is in God and I believe this will turn out, it may not. I don't know. I did see a change when we talked, I did see her coming around, the circumstances are not changing. I know she loves me and she needs me, I do her. I'm not giving up yet. This is ridiculous, being by my mother in laws, but in a way, its a blessing. Like Rosered said, it is peaceful, I have people who care for me, I feel good. I need this space for me as well in case it comes to the worst. But I'm committed to getting my marriage on track. I know it can be awesome. Honestly, I don't really know what she is thinking. She could be over us, want out, can't count on me, I'm not dependable, all the harsh words she has said during her eruptions, all of them have hurt. But I know the other side of her, and I want that back. So we shall see.

Only you will know where you want to be. . . . .

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:55

Doug,

Believe me, I understand. I have been part of this forum for a few months over 5 years. Sorting. Learning. Finding.

I have worked on myself. I have deep abiding faith. Jesus Christ is my foundation. I made my vows. I heard my spouse's vows to me. No where did I say "And finally, if you have sex with someone other than me, I get to divorce you. If I have sex with someone other than you, you get to divorce me." My marriage needs to be a testimony to the love of Jesus Christ. There needs to be so much more that our sexual fidelity to each other. it is very dear to me, but it is not the have all to end all.

Today, right now, I am not rocking the boat. I need that - - -for me. I do not know what my heart will feel me prompting to do tomorrow. I am doing today.

There are parts of our lives that I want back. There are other parts that I have matured out of. since they no longer work as they did. I have repaired what I saw as broken, and I have healed my hurting, and sorted through my confusion and I have a peaceful soul. I need and want and desire a partner. Some one to share my dreams with and someone who desires to work beside me.

I no longer feel stuck. I am working on my goals. Right now, that is where my focus goes.

I feel awesome. I feel I have a lot to give and share.

1. One of God’s purposes for marriage is to mutually complete one another, and to experience companionship. The Bible speaks to this purpose in the book of Genesis, when God created man and then said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him” (Genesis 2:18).

2. Marriage is God’s provision to meet our deep longing for a close and intimate relationship. He puts a man and woman together and uses their respective strengths and weaknesses to make them stronger as a team. It is in marriage that God calls people to put aside their selfishness, commit themselves to another person unconditionally, and assume responsibility for others

Sincerely,

Liz

It's Good To Be Alone

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 21:41

Addressing this part of your post, Liz:

"1. One of God’s purposes for marriage is to mutually complete one another, and to experience companionship. The Bible speaks to this purpose in the book of Genesis, when God created man and then said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him” (Genesis 2:18). "

Heh, maybe it is easier for the woman to be alone...I can say for myself, having experienced one dysfunctional relationship after another, it is GOOD to be alone!

Of course I can never "divorce" my son who has ADHD, nor would I want to. But I confess I am more at peace now that he has moved out.

If they can't work it out...

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:19

...prayer, and aligning with God, still helps. If it comes to the point where being together truly isn't serving them, they will separate naturally, and harmoniously.

I still feel D is coming to understand how this marriage is replaying his abandonment issues from his parents' passing when he was 12. In psychological terms, it is "repetition compulsion."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200806/essential-secrets...

Good article Delphine..

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:39

D~ I read the article on repetition compulsion, and I agree, align myself with God. I do feel some weird emotions concerning being abandoned, the possible loss of my wife, her not loving me the way we did, but you know, I can handle it if this turns out that way. This has been a mess from the get go, my wife has ADHD which has some major psychological issues and not to mention the awful situation with her son. I stepped into this mess. The article pointed to the fact that she may be feeling that she has failed miserably as a mother. I think she is depressed. But his isn't about my abandonment, it's now about working to get a marriage back on track, and I need The Lord to do that. I know that when she explodes, she blames everything on me, she points all her problems to being my fault. So I know she is repressing some very bad emotions. I will stand for this for just so long until I feel it is finished, then I will move on. But people know me and her and I get a feeling that we will get through this. I don't know, it's all confusing. I would feel terrible, but I will need to know, is my wife does not love me or see me as the man she will need to regain her son back. I can;t fight that, I will never come in first and I know that. But I do know how we are when we are connected. I need something positive to happen to relieve the tension and stress, then I know I will see a break somewhere.

D, prayer is "doing something"

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 03/14/2016 - 20:09

Yes, stand by and pray for her, for yourself, for all concerned.

More recommended reading, Bible-based (but going far beyond the conventional understandings):

http://realneville.com/txt/at_your_command.htm

Threw my card out !

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 13:56

OK, so I decided to give her a small plant of yellow tulips and a card. The card basically was a "love going through a tough time" with my comments, I basically said I apologized for arguing back at her, she didn't deserve that and that I missed being with her. I went over to my house, she kept the plant and threw the card out. Interestingly, I'm not the only one she is shutting out, she is shutting out her mother as well. My mother in law and I talked this morning, my wife texted her and said not to text me, so she is hut out as well. Why is she pushing away those who love her. She is only creating a potential risk of more stress and pressure on her, and us.

Denial

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:14

NonADHD ,

In my view I see 2 strong possibilities: 1. she is in denial about what is happening, or 2. she is set in stone that she is done with your relationship until you see it her way.

Neither are pleasant. i understand how deeply you want to influence how she is behaving. I also understand how hard it is when nothing you do appears to have the impact you desire.

Liz

2 Possibilities..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 13:38

Liz,

How can I get her to accept her condition and if I haven't initiated anything accept flowers and a card, how can I not be seeing it her way? How can be she be done with our relationship when we just had an adult talk 2 weeks ago. We all agree, here at MIL's home that, she is only creating a much worse situation then she should be. I'm afraid that if this is how she does things, then I need to question our future. I want love and happiness, not isolation.

The elusive dream

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sat, 03/19/2016 - 00:10

Doug,

I do not know how to get her to accept her condition. If I knew, I would write a book about it. And sell a million copies. And rise to the top of the bestsellers' list.

I want love and happiness, not isolation. I can understand that. Truly, truly I can. The elusive dream.

Liz

She's Depressed

Submitted by Delphine on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:19

It is very common for those suffering from depression to isolate themselves. Not much you can do at this point. Just leave her be and focus on your own life and interests. As I've said before, I think it's fortunate that you can stay with your MIL while your wife is like this. Looks like this situation may be very long-running (the situation with your wife's son, the manipulations of her ex) and yes, it is seriously impacting your marriage. Try to make the best of it. Keep praying.

Thanks..

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:26

The good news is I will start my new job on Monday.The potential is going to be very good so that's going to be a big relief. Plus I'm getting interviews every day. Now I'm getting responses to my postings. I have another one today, possibly a Skype interview tomorrow and dace 2 face on Wednesday, so it's picking up. I'm hoping to be in full swing within the next two weeks.

Congratulations!

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:31

Congratulations!

Thanks..

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:33

Thank you Rose Red comma this is going to help indeed. But what I really want is my wife back.

I understand. But I also

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:53

I understand. But I also understand that you have little to no control over that, so proceeding with important things that are within your control is good.

Right

Submitted by Delphine on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 15:09

That's why I keep telling you, D, to make the best of things as they are now.

Something I need to do also, as i am anxious about a situation myself at this time (nothing to do with relationship/ADHD).

Anxious...

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 13:33

Delphine,

I hope your solution turns out ok. Currently, no word from my wife. She has even shut her mom out and its been hard on her. I don't understand how she can be so mean to her! This is so disappointing, I'm building resentment each day. I start new job on Monday, so I have to go my house and get all my clothes for the following week, so ridiculous and childish. My step son will be here this weekend but I'm not initiating anything, I tried. I have a snowballs chance in hell for her to initiate. My MIL is sad because she wants to see her grandson and she's trying to respect my wife's space and would like an invite. That doesn't seem to be happening. I just don't understand, I'm dumfounded on how my wife can be so distant, selfish and punishing. I know her hyper focus must have some hindsight for empathy. We all love her, me, my MIL and my MIL's sister, we're all baffled on her behavior, attitude and selfishness. I am praying and praying that she hears God's voice and get out of this depression/funk she is in.

For more understanding...

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 15:28

Yes D, her behavior seems extreme.

Sometimes when I have a "burning question" about something, I consult a spiritual channeler who brings forth higher-level insights on a situation. I have always found it helpful. If you are open to this kind of thing, here's a link to the channeler's service: http://danielscranton.com/ask-a-question/

If not, you might talk to the priest or pastor about it, at your church.

Thanks..

Submitted by NonADHD on Thu, 03/17/2016 - 14:26

Good Call Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 16:13

I've known about my struggles with depression long before I ever heard about ADHD.(most of my life) Mine is definitely circumstantial and it only comes when I've been under stress for too long due to being overwhelmed and not getting a chance to rest and recover from it.

Since it's not a debilitating type of depression (paralyzing)...it can go unnoticed for quite some time before I start to see it or notice it myself. Irritability and hopelessness are the two main symptoms It creeps up on you so slowly it's really hard to see the change from one day to the next. What D said about cutting his wife's mother off is definitely a sign. I would have done the same thing myself (and have when this happens to me) When I really notice it, is actually when I'm coming back out it. That's when I start to see my mood changing and when I'm feeling better and this is what I really recognize.

If I were D's wife and had my own bout going into depression.....this is what I would do too. I tend to isolate and withdraw for a while (like a dog or animal that finds a safe place to retreat to when they're injured or something is wrong with them). This is exactly what I do and I don't necessarily even notice it until it's gone on for quite a while.

If anything.....what I need is understanding of this. There is nothing I or anyone else can do to make it stop over night. It has it's own time table and there's not much you can do about it but just try and reduce stress.(from the one who has it)

If I had to give anyone advise in how to deal with this or what you could do to help? Lower your expectations, cut some slack and give lots of room to breath and recover. That's exactly what I need when this happens to me and if I get that....I will come back out of it relatively quickly. If I don't and the pressure continues or increases....it will only make it worse and prolong it which takes much, much longer. That's about all you can do? (from either side)

I think you're right.....this sounds very familiar indeed. I think it's a good call on your part for bringing this up.

Adding Here About Depression

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 16:22

When I get depressed....my threshold point in respect to emotional liability drops way down from where it would normally be. Another thing to consider? In general...I'm usually not irritable or grouchy ( not a major component of my personality ) and tend to have a "glass is half full" attitude. When that changes going the other direction....it always due to depression and nothing else. That's how I can tell.

Now Bad News..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 16:34

I went home and got my clothes for work next week, still at my MIL's. We are all shocked at how she is behaving. My MIL is asking to pray to soften her heart. I told my MIL that we cannot continue like this, I won't be treated this way. We have never had the Lord in the center of this relationship and I've been asking, pleading my wife to do that, doesn't have to be anything big. I don't want to be here, half of me says stay at home and the other half says no, this will continue everytime. She will know that I will always crawl back and that's not a Christian marriage, that's not 50/50 marriage. She must understand what her actions create, the cause and effect. I haven't touched her in over 2 months, that's just insanity. No more sleeping on the couch. She is causing this herself, but blames others so easily. I'm worried that this may be heading in the wrong direction. I just don't know. My wife is unstable.

Doug...we must c ourselves.....

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 03/19/2016 - 11:49

You are continuing to allow the acts of another put you into a bad place; I would not be a very good or wise brother if I didn't point out once again that your position in life is established by God himself. I suggest you go home and sleep in your own bed, tend to your own affairs and respect the space your wife is demanding. We just need to be the Men we were created to be, regardless of the actions of our spouses or any one else.... The reality is; you are allowing your wife's living of life to destroy your peace....And all manner of unhealthy things are surfacing in your own life....You are seeking approval from others (this forum) and even teaming up with your wife's Mother against her....This is not wise! This is experience speaking, I've made all the same mistakes, and sadly still do at times...

The truth is hidden in J's statement about himself....When he said....He didn't even notice when he was getting into a bad place....He said it was usually when he was coming out it that he became aware??? You really need to understand this; we all do!....He used a great analogy with the injured animal concept....You wife is unapproachable right now, and if you don't stop this pity party, and learn to separate the two realities, it may not be long until you aren't either. I'm sorry if my words are hard on you, but, I want you well and at peace, and you know that doesn't come from her...."Cast all your cares on him, for he cares for you"...

Because the truth of it is; you possibly (probably) will have to deal with this, or similar behavior off and on the rest of your life w/ her. Just as she will have to deal with your stuff....Do you not read the posts of those who have been married thirty or more years?? It's a daily battle of self -awareness....

Your melt downs are not coming because of the way your wife has chosen to live the past few months...There coming because of the way you are viewing it, there coming because you are looking for salvation, in the wrong place. Just like I do when I attach my desire for peace to her, instead of the person of Peace...We can make excuses for it if we want, (I usually do) and even seek approval from family and friends, because we have chosen the path of misery, instead of maturity....Family who cares, prays and hurt for you both, but don't deserve to be used, and felt forced to get involved in your personal affairs...

Peace be w/ you Doug....

Yes...Choose Peace

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/19/2016 - 13:09

Excellent, C...

These difficult relationships can be a great spur to spiritual growth, if approached in the right way. Blessing in disguise?

Delphine

My opinion, based on my

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 17:44

My opinion, based on my personal experience with my husband, is that if depression is so debilitating and oppressive as to cause a person to stop communicating with close relatives, the person should be in treatment for the depression, not just waiting to feel better.

Yes...

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 18:06

She ought to be in treatment for depression. Especially since her life situation is inherently depressing, given the situation with her son and the manipulations of her ex. That along with the emotional lability of ADHD...recipe for emotional disaster.

I also think talking to a lawyer about mediation would be a good thing. I had to go into mediation to resolve custody sharing issues after my son's dad and I split. It was helpful. A lawyer may have other suggestions as well.

I Agree

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 18:29

Like I said.....,mine has never been debilitating like this. When I say withdraw or go recover (my experience)...I'm talking days not weeks or months. Usually...a few days of peace and quiet will do the trick along with lots of rest. That's usually enough to keep me stable or shift direction. It's why I have never considered it as something I could not handle by myself. The pattern does look the same however? I agree...I think she might need some help with this? Zanex (for for the immediate?).... or an Anti Depressant possibly? Sleep does wonders too.

Antidepressants can make things worse

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 03/18/2016 - 18:53

I'm anti-antidepressants. There are a lot of suicides among those who are on them. Someone I know suicided while on them.

There are herbal alternatives that IMO work better. Exercise and yes, sleep are critically important, too. I hope D's wife can get it together and overcome this.

Master-Piece....Moving Thread

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/13/2016 - 10:09

D....you mentioned part 2 of this thread since it's shifting gears and moving a different direction. I agree and there is something that came to mind when you mentioned the word 'Masterpice.' I can't see any way to describe this concept and connecting this to ADHD (as I have come to understand it) without another long post! I'm working on that but this is one of those times I can't relate this concept without walking you through the process of how I have come to learned it. I think you will understand that better after I have a chance to explain.

Doug For Your Benefit

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/06/2016 - 18:12

There was a reason I called you out earlier (in this thread) when I told you, you were being judgmental and dismissive of the insight I was offering. I also told you why I reacted the way I did when I said I thought you were projecting your ideas of what you believed of people with ADHD are like on to me. And I also told you that I did the same thing by making you responsible for the very same things my wife does with me that make me angry.....namely and top on of the list of things that make me angry is being dismissed which is a form of disrespecting someone when you feel they don't have anything good to say, anything of value to say or you don't respect what they have to say based on some kind of belief that you have about them. To say this another way.....is to say you stop listening to them or are really hearing what they say based on the person saying it not on the thing that they are saying?

For your benefit here....and no one else's including me....I want to show you something that I'm not sure your seeing?

Here are some things that you've said in this thread.

"I've been lucky, I have never experienced emotional trauma such as this."

"I lost my parents when I was 12 and raised by my older brother and my sister in law. You want to talk about anger and repression."

"No offense but your using your father as an excuse. Repression is not the cause of the anger,"

"This is frightening. I'm scrambling to anyone who can give me advice, I'm praying and believing like never before. This is rejection at it's most cruelest point. My erotic fantasies with my wife are gone. What was warmth through our love has turned cold as ice."

"Its just something happened and she has gone into a "new" place that I hve never seen before and it's away from me"

"I guess my insecurities are showing and as JJ "mentioned, I m vulnerable."

With all the compassion in the world that I can have for you Doug.......I think you have been here before?

"she continues to want to be defensive, explosive, angry, insults, threaten, hit, and she does not apologize"

"Just before Christmas we had a disagreement regarding my step son, which is sacred ground with my wife."

"Since then, we have not talked, she has been extremely defiant, defensive and we are separate rooms of the house"

"and at times I have stayed at my mother in laws just to get away." (?????)

"This is the longest silent treatment so far"

"I don't know how to stop this." (?????)

"It seems she has gone into a sate of mind that I have never seen."

"I cant talk to her or do anything that wil provoke a discussion."

"She is upset and it seems I'm the enemy."

"She will not forgive me or lighten up, its the most difficult thing I have ever witnessed."

"It seems I have no leverage accept to maintain my distance for my own sanity."

"She works full time but leaves and comes home without a word."

"I look at my wife, she's beautiful and smart"

"yet, she continues to want to be defensive, explosive, angry, insults, threaten, hit, and she does not apologize,"

"I have a graduate degree in psychology, it was for me."

I don't have a masters degree in psychology....but I do have the experience of discovering that the best way to understand the behaviors of others.....is to figure those same behaviors out about yourself.

It seems the minute you can do this successfully for yourself......you will be able to understand it in the same way for other people at the same time and understand them as well.

I think if you answer the discrepancies in your own statements and include what is missing in the ones you've made here....you will know what to do and why your wife is so angry at you? At least you'll have those answers for yourself and that's really all you can do anyway?

The thing is Doug.... YOU can't answer those things for your wife unless she tells you......but it's likely she already has in her own way or in other words and you haven't been listening to her? That or you are not actually hearing what she is saying and reading between the lines. Just a thought?

Yes J...I said to my son (who

Submitted by Delphine on Sat, 03/05/2016 - 20:13

Yes...I said to my son (who will be 34 in April) that his sensitivity and need to get away from conflicting situations was an ADHD trait and I would have said something about emotional lability, but he was intent on finishing his story about what happened with his gf (her criticism of the dinner he made). This is something I've only come to understand recently, myself, upon researching ADHD. But of course it's been going on all his life.

I can certainly see how the "skewed perspective" applies to those with ADHD. I do think it's too easy for non-ADHD to have this also in regard to their ADHD loved ones. I think/feel that we need to seriously put into practice the Agreement of "Take nothing personally" from Don Miguel Ruiz's The Four Agreements.

For those who haven't explored them, here they are in full.

“The Four Agreements
1. Be impeccable with your word.
2. Don’t take anything personally.
3. Don’t make assumptions.
4. Always do your best. ”

In other words, we need to DETACH from the manifestations of ADHD that we observe in our loved one. Know that we are witnessing the symptoms of the condition, not the real essential person. Focus on the symptoms--we get more of the symptoms playing out "in our face." Focus more on the real essential person--we get more of that.

Thank you for sharing about what it was like growing up in that kind of environment with your father. My experience with my own father was similar, although not as repressive. But he wasn't a fan of emotions. There were times when I really needed emotional support and instead he would get angry and disapproving. The message was, "Don't feel and don't talk about feelings." He used various forms of abuse and I believe he had an alcohol problem. His own background contained a lot of abandonment, which he himself did not recognize. Same with my mom, who I now believe had ADHD (and maybe MPD). Dad, I believe, had borderline personality disorder. It was NOT a match made in heaven! I often wished they would divorce.

Quoting from your post:

"Bottom line here....the cumulative experience of being more sensitive....experiencing hurt and negative reactions from others throughout your life....leads you to believe and feel (on a cognitive level) things differently and the opinions and thoughts that are formed from this in that order. The only way to reverse this trend as needed.....is exactly the same way you got there.

Right! Lay on the encouragement, praise and appreciation. Look for the good stuff, and ignore the rest :)

I understand though this is not always easy to do. I lived with my son the last four years, I know all the difficulties. Nevertheless this is the conclusion I reached. It FEELS much better to emphasize the positive, for one thing!

Four Agreements..Yes, Very Helpful

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/06/2016 - 08:23

This is a book I would recommend to any one as well. It has been one of the most effective tools to use as a simply an effective way to change my thinking process and one I can remember easily and carry with me on a daily basis. I've read it enough times that I have memorized the basis concepts and started practicing (or focusing ) on one agreement at a time until I had all four firmly in mind.

The easiest one for me to start practicing was "always do your best' which......if you can remember that your "best" will always be different from one day to the next and only you can decide if that is true of not. It incorporates the positive trait of self forgiveness and turn self judgment into a positive direction if applied properly. This is really good way to change your own perspective on how well you do things which also allows the same grace to others within that same perspective. If you are truly being honest with yourself in this one way.....it allows you honestly asses and judge yourself accurately and know that in all fairness.....when you need to improve and try and do better without any judgments or criticisms from others to sway how you feel about yourself.

I think it's these ruminating negative thoughts or images that are created by this kind of early "imprinting" ( what I was talking about...the skewed perspective ) are the ones you need to undo especially if you have ADHD (or those experiences) and the ones that feed your own false beliefs about yourself. Just this one agreement does all of this! It forces you to pay attention to yourself and monitor you own performance on a daily basis and in essence.....rate or judge yourself in how well you did?

The other three are not quite so easy but as Miquel Ruiz's stated that the hardest one of all is to be "impeccable with your word." He was right of course in that the other three I've noticed that I can accomplish more readily as long as I can remember them even if I don't do it perfectly or even all of the time. Even just thought process and practicing or attempting to follow through was enough to establish these thought processes in a more indelible way and make them more or a habitually way of thinking for me which was enough to really help make a difference and it works does work magically to transform your thoughts from negative ones into positive ones. I found it truly remarkable in how effective this really was for me. This really is the kind of magic that I can faithfully believe in and know it works without question.

I think this might be especially useful for anyone who has ADHD and I'm glad you brought this up and shared that here Delphine:) Thanks.

I actually don't have the book...

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 04:48

I just knew the Agreements and I thought "take nothing personally" was especially apropos on this board, but I much appreciate your thoughts on the other Agreements, especially "Always do your best." I think I shall get two copies, one for me and one for my son.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

Delphine

Symptom, Response, Response..."Reaction Formation" Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/06/2016 - 09:49

Another really useful tool that Melissa included in her couples class is this concept of symptom, response, response ( SRR ). Simply put....others see the ADHD symptoms and respond (or react ) to them. In turn......the ADHD person (if not aware of their symptoms or their impact on others) react or respond to what they are seeing or feeling.

What I was describing is really the macro version of this and the "prmary (or primitive) imprinting" that is caused by this very effect. It's this SSR pattern/effect that need's to be undone (with your thought process) and that's what you need to "detach" from on a micro level as well.

I think this is really the initial culprit in forming those negative thoughts and images and the one we're talking about that needs to be reversed (with tools like the four agreements) on a personal level that will change this dynamic and reverse the trend that was originally created by the same dynamic as well.( reversed starting with your own thought process).....again, I have to concur.

You can only change your own thoughts right? This is what I think on a practical level ( what you can do about this situation ) is always in your own control and the only thing you can do in reality when it gets right down to it?

I pulled this description off the internet of what "reaction formation" or the mechanism that this creates in people.(everyone). If you take what I was describing to Doug about my father ....and even within his own situation he is describing with his wife (her response to the symptom, response, response) the third leg in this chain reaction is the person with ADHD. They have a preprogrammed or conditioned reaction to this and it comes from reaction formation I do believe if I am not mistaken?

As defined...

Reaction Formation occurs when a person feels an urge to do or say something and then actually does or says something that is effectively the opposite of what they really want.

It also appears as a defense against a feared social punishment. If I fear that I will be criticized for something, I very visibly act in a way that shows I am personally a long way from the feared position.

A common pattern in Reaction Formation is where the person uses ‘excessive behavior’, for example using exaggerated friendliness when the person is actually feeling unfriendly.

Example

A person who is angry with a colleague actually ends up being particularly courteous and friendly towards them.

A man who is gay has a number of conspicuous heterosexual affairs and openly criticizes gays.

A mother who has a child she does not want becomes very protective of the child.

An alcoholic extols the virtues of abstinence.

Discussion

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example the gay person who has heterosexually promiscuous may be concealing their homosexual reality. This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).

Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation ‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover up something unwanted in the other direction, such as a person who fears war becoming a pacifist, convincing themselves that war is wrong (rather than the ‘cowardly’ position that war is scary).

Reaction Formation goes further than projection such that unwanted impulses and thoughts are not acknowledged.

Extreme patterns of Reaction Formation are found in paranoia and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), where the person becomes trapped in a cycle of repeating a behavior that they know (at least at a deep level) is somehow wrong.

This is also the thing that I was bringing up to Doug about two different things going on? One is emotional liability ( hard wiring or hard drive issue)......and one is reaction formation ( soft ware or programming issue) and the net effect which comes in the form of the aforementioned behaviors. One of them being in itself "reaction formation" as a defense mechanism that gets ingrained (or imprinted) into your psyche from having ADHD and the net effect this experience has on you.

In other words.......within the SRR dynamic (third leg being the person with ADHD) it more of an unconscious reaction that comes out automatically if you don't do something to reverse it or counter it with your cognitive thought process. It's the only way around it since it's already there and has been established without that person realizing it has?

This is denial in a sense...... but like not knowing you have ADHD if your not diagnosed......you can't be aware of something that you cannot see (or even remember where it came from?) unless someone brings this to your attention and brings that awareness of it to light.

To say you need to know this or have this brought to your attention to change it is not true......but for someone like Doug or yourself who is dealing with a love one with ADHD....it could be helpful to understand this enough to understand that it is not something you can argue with to the other person on a cognitive level since they are ina sense....being controlled or manipulated by this (from inside of them) and literally not aware of it.

As I have said before in other ways......it's not them you are detaching from (or disengaging ) from.....it's these defense mechanisms that you are fighting up against (futilely) and treating them like they ARE the person standing in front of you. I think in this case....denial is really unawareness (not being mindful?) at that level because no one is really going to have that kind of aware all by themselves unless you are really that self aware already. Myself included here.....I couldn't have figured this out or would have been able to do this without a lot of help through therapy and seriously embarking on my journey of self discovery in that it's the one time you can't do this all by yourself (unless you are highly unusual I think?)

This is by the way.....the battle I'm having with my wife as well. But I am recognizing these things in her and trying hard not to take it personally. On a cognitive level.....I can mange that pretty well.

My personal problem that I'm having to deal with which is the effect this has on me....comes directly from this "imprinted" or physiological response this has inside me. Even if I can override this reaction with an appropriate response to it......I'm still struggling with the physiological effect from the "shock" to my system every time I re-engage to it. That's the part that I really can't do anything about but the physical negative effect this has me can really take it toll. I can't blame my wife for this much I know....but none the less....it has to stop and the best way I can manage it until I can get her to see this is to not engage and not allow her to bait me into confrontation.

I think being able to recognize that this was really what she was doing (any attention is attention even engaging me in a fight?) for that reason alone. The topic at hand was less the issue.....her getting more attention was really at the core.

But in respect to myself.....her need for this coming from a deficit inside her which is an exaggerated and somewhat insatiable need that I cannot ever fill for her. That she has to get by herself and there will never be enough of anything that I can give her that will ever fill that hole inside her except through filling it with the love that she didn't get when she was young. That's the only thing I can give her and the only thing that I can to help myself and fix my problem is to keep myself from engaging where I now it will be bad or unhealthy for (ME) even if my still believes it's me who's causing her to feel empty inside. This is where.....I'm not responsible and was not the cause for this.

My reactions or responses to this however....are my responsibility. I also personally believe that it's my responsibility to find these answers to things I need to know in order to understand my wife so I know what I can do to help her do this for herself and not feed into it and know when to disengage for her sake as well. It does nothing to serve feeding this any more than I absolutely have to just to try and keep the peace and yet still do something about it. Doing nothing here or blaming it all on her is not going to fix the problem

On a cognitive thinking level...... this is what is possible and what you can do. All you can do really? What (IT) is:)

Bull With a Ring in It's Nose

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/06/2016 - 10:37

This was one of the first things my T(therapist) introduced me too when I first began therapy with him. The concept of a large powerful animal that is stronger than you are (a Bull) that can be led around by a person by simply inserting a ring in it's nose which can be correlated to any number of these things that cause you to behave in ways you do not want for yourself. These things pull you around and control your behavior and cause you to behave in the opposite way (or go in a direction) that you do not want to go in your thinking.

Cause and effect says.....change the course or action in your direction despite the way these things pull you internally and go/stay in a positive direction instead. Positive thinking will provide you with the direction and the behaviors to keep you from going off course each time these "rings in your nose" pull you in the wrong direction.

In respect this this......your spouse may have their finger in the ring and are trying to pull you in the wrong direction .....but neither they or the ring is stronger than you if you become the Bull with the self awareness of what is happening and use that strength to overcome the effect that this has on you.

By disengaging......your removing the "ring" that gives others (or these things inside you) any power over you in order to do this. This puts all your personal power in your own hands and it not giving any away or allowing others to have any power over you.

Another good tool to use to gain this kind of self awareness and the ability to use this to your advantage. Again....all things that have to do with your own thoughts and being able to control yourself not anyone else. ( this is what is possible on a thinking level as well )

Real Time Example of Reaction Formation

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 03/06/2016 - 14:18

This just happened so I thought I would share it with everyone.

My wife asked me to take out the garbage and I told her sure....no problem. Within only a few minutes.....she asked me again if I would do it even though I already told her I would.

This is a compulsion my wife has in fearing that it won't get done. Why is it a compulsion? Because I know her that well and this is what she does. Should I take this as nagging? No....it's a compulsion and it's her compulsion and she can't seem to control it or stop it. Okay...no harm....no foul. Moving on.

I ask her now (because I know this is what she wants....I know know it even if she's not saying it and I'm absolutely right) "Do you want me to do this right now this very minute?"

"Ah.....that would be nice" Again....a hint of sarcasm that she's not really aware of. Do I react to this (miniscule) slight?" No. Forget about it. Moving on......

Now I'm unloading the garbage into a bag and standing in the kitchen with her and she's at the kitchen sink and she says. "It would be good it you clean the cheese grater after you use it."....as she's standing there cleaning and scrubbing it. She continues with " you know....I've been sitting here for the last 5 minutes scrubbing this thing and if it had been scrubbed immediately after using it.....this wouldn't be a probelm."

That's all good and fine except for one thing. I cooked the dinner last night and I was the one who is responsible for cleaning the cheese grater." I don't find scrubbing it before I load the dishwasher a problem and don't care if I do it at that time.

In fact.....in the process of making dinner....I also want to sit down and eat it while it's hot and don't need to attend to those details right then as long as I load the dishwasher. The fact that she hates scrubbing food off utensils and pots and pans ( a personal pet peeve ) is irrelevant if she's not the one doing it. And yet....there she is taking this on and instructing me how to do my job.....as well as jumping in and doing it for me before I even have a chance to. (what ever reasoning she could come up with that has to do with me here is a complete rationalization despite any truth there might be in it. What ever that is not being spoken or the reasons behind it are not being spoken of said by her)

So I said..."why are you doing that in the first place? I was going to do that before you asked me to take out the garbage and now I'm here doing that instead as you asked. I was the one who left the cheese on and you shouldn't be doing that in the first place? You are perfectly in your right to ask me to load the dishwasher after I'm done taking out the garbage and that wouldn't be nagging at all.....but it makes no sense for you to take on that job before I even have a chance?" (like within the next 1/2 hour)

Her reply was "well...I just want to sit down and rest because I'm not feeling well and need to get over this cold (she has)" In other words.....she doesn't want to worry that it might not get done so she feels compelled to do it herself and complain about it at the same time? This is called....being your own worse enemy here.

Look at this situation. Out of the fear of something that hasn't happened yet.....she volunteers to do my job when she is sick and doesn't feel good and is complaining that what I did was causing her to have a problem when she shouldn't be doing it in the first place. And complaining that how I do things is causing her a problem when she was not the one doing it or responsible for it. Now I'm responsible for not doing it the way that is not a pet peeve for me and don't care about it and why should I? She's not the one doing it in the first place and it doesn't matter as long as she doesn't have to clean it up?

But instead of just reminding me or asking me to make sure I do my job....she does it before I even have a chance (within in a five minute period) while I'm in the middle of doing something else she wanted (right NOW immediately) to help dispel the same fear and compulsion that caused her to divert me from doing the first job I was in the middle of doing? Actually while I'm in the middle of doing it. This is irrational compulsive behavior on my wife's part and I clearly see this for what it is. It drives me nuts but I don't need to take offense. It is what it is.

But in reality....what this is is a set up. It goes right along with all her other behaviors including baiting me into an argument.

Reaction Formation-Extreme patterns of Reaction Formation are found in paranoia and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), where the person becomes trapped in a cycle of repeating a behavior that they know (at least at a deep level) is somehow wrong...... the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation ‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover up something unwanted in the other direction" ie: compulsive behavior.

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. This what my wife did (and does) or being your own worse enemy out of fear of ??????

Look at what she was attempting to do.....in every respect....she was trying to make me feel guilty and doing everything in her power to do so. Why? It is a form of manipulation to control another persons behavior. My wife fears lack of control and feels no personal power to use a means to control me....so she resorts to these behaviors as unconscious and completely self sabotaging means to gain control over her situation and me at the same time.

It comes from an irrational and illogical fear that somehow.....what ever it she wants is NEVER going to happen but she doesn't realize this.

Why? Because this IS was what really happened to her when she was little. These things never happened and if she didn't do them herself....they wouldn't get done and she would get nothing.

Her denial is from the painful past experiences from a mother who was completely derelict in her own responsibilities and used the same quilting tactics on her to make her feel she was responsible for things that were her mothers responsibility the entire time. That and being an irresponsible alcoholic who never took responsibility for her own actions a day in her life.

Guilt or quilting.....then becomes the learned means to control and where you get your power by doing the opposite of what you want and setting every one else up to fail you so you can remain a victim which is the only position where this kind of power can be attained or wielded from.

The real underlying fear....is the fear of not getting your needs met not from anything that I have done in my past that she use to argue this is why she has to do it.

Pretty ridiculous if you think about it? Here I am......in the middle taking responsible for making dinner and loading the dishwasher....and she pulls me into the dirction she wants instead which is to take out the garbage NOW....IMMEDIATELY....even though she doesn't say this when she simply asks if I will take out the garbage. The second request is still not saying what she wants (right now this very minute) because that would be demanding (which she is in denial of) and it comes in the form of a nag only minutes after the first request before I have a chance to finish the first thing I'm in the middle of. By doing this....she just controlled me and redirected me away from what I she wants in the first place.

Now....she volunteers and jumps right in to finishing the job I was doing because she fears it won't be done right and I won't scrub the cheese off the grater. Why? Because that's not how she does it because she doesn't like scrubbing and probably wouldn't do it IF if were her doing it. But she wasn't doing it ....I was.....yet....now she's doing it instead of what she really wants to be doing which is going and sitting down and resting because she's sick.

But she can't relax and go sit down until she knows her fears are not going to materialize in her thinking ( yet that's not the reason she does this) so she now she is preventing me from doing my job which is what she really wants me to do before I even have the chance.

So when I ask her to just remind me and in the past she's said..."well......I shouldn't have to." THAT right there......is a rationalization or excuse on her part. The excuse for setting me up so she can full fill her own self fulfilling prophecy to keep what little misdirected power she feels she has which comes in the form of guilt.

And that guilt was put there by her mother who caused her to believe this about herself. This is what my wife is in denial of and at the root of this dysfunctional way of non - communication she has no idea why she does this or where it comes from?

The problem here was with her mother who did this to her. In respect to a child.....they are victims to this kind a mal-treatment and the parent really does do this TOO YOU back then.

That's the cause right there.

The effect this has is what is happening with my wife and she's still carrying that around and perpetuating the same cycle to this day in all her past relationships including with me.

And now....here I am and I have a choice. Either I take offense at these slights and this manipulation and remain angry with her for doing this ie: (sabotaging me, redirecting me, controlling me and accusing me of something that hasn't happened yet and blaming this on me as to why she "needs to do these things") or I can choose to let it go....predict this is what is going to happen, accept it for what it is......and let it go and don't engage her and join her in her cycle. (By stepping in to the ring with her)

As it played out.....I didn't do this and didn't engage her at each step in the road other than to say...."that's not your responsibility it's mine. You shouldn't be doing that in the first place and there's nothing wrong with reminding me instead of you doing what you don't want to be doing."

That all I said and I left everything else right where it should be. With her. I'm not responsible for the rest and I have no need to feel guilty what so ever even though this was her attempt even if she can't see this at all. Accepting this and predicting it is another way of saying......I know this is what she does and the reasons behind it and expect her not to not do it.....but to continue to do it which is exactly what she has been doing the entire time we've been together when it comes to the house and these over lapping duties.

The best thing I can do for both of us is to point out the denial without actually doing it until she can start seeing these things herself by experiencing it without my input into it. By not engaging her and removing that ring in my nose.....I can choose what to do and when and not reacting to her is my choice as well.

This particular situation this morning.....never became a situation because I didn't engage her in what I clearly see as her issue not mine no matter how many times she says it isn't. That the usefulness in applying this and continuing to move forward in the direction that (WE) both want to move in....that is....applying what I've said in this thread and making this happen by how I think and how I perceive this. As long as I don't fail (myself) and continue to do what I'm doing......this is how to avoid these things a lesson their impact.

Denial of all of this is what my wife is suffering from.....but I don't need to help her with that and feed into any more than I absolutely have to.

End of story (happy one this time around :)

Sounds familiar...

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 05:16

When son was living here he was always leaving dishes in the sink. I repeatedly asked him not to do that, he would tell me he would get to it, but too often, he would forget.
So after a while I let it go and just went ahead and did them, because I don't like dishes left in the sink. We discussed sharing chores, and he said he would mop the kitchen floor weekly, but that didn't happen. I complained to him once that I felt like I was his maid, and he got very angry. "I don't need a fu**ing maid!"

I'm not saying he never did the dishes, or that he never helped around the apt. He's pretty handy with fixing things, and I'm not, so he was helpful there. But eventually I realized that the bulk of the cleaning and organizing was up to me. I could sense where his head was at and that it wasn't about being inconsiderate or lazy, but that his mind was simply "elsewhere."

But then, my family background was somewhat similar to your wife's, and I can relate to the feeling that if I don't do it, it won't get done.

So what about you J, do you have the ADHD traits of messiness, forgetfulness etc.? From your post here, it does sound like you are pretty responsible with helping out at home. Have you always been that way?

"So, What About You J"

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 12:54

"So what about you J, do you have the ADHD traits of messiness, forgetfulness etc.? Yes!!!

From your post here, it does sound like you are pretty responsible with helping out at home. Yes

Have you always been that way?" Yes and No. Both at the same time????

As far as doing things in general....I sound more like you son. I've very handy and have lots of skills in fixing things, home repair, car repair, appliance repair etc...

I also do a very thorough job at doing what ever I do including cleaning or house work (not quite but almost a perfectionist in that respect.....( but I don't spend un-necessary time..or waste time doing things) and tend to be very efficient and accurate in order to do this in detail oriented tasks. That's a learned skill from practice and the work I do not my inherent tendency. No complaints on the quality of the job or how well it gets done ever. I tend to error on the cautious side and do my homework ahead of time when I'm attempting something new. I learned this the hard way and I learned from that....... the best way not to get criticized is to do the job right the first time around. This at least....is not a problem or issue I have.

As far as memory goes.....I am fortunate to have a really good rote memory at remembering details accurately. On the down side of this however.....it has caused me to rely heavily on that (my strength) and making my short term memory dependent on that which has always consistently failed me.

In the long run, this had made me not reliable and not dependable when trying to apply that to remembering detail (in advance not in the moment) and then in trying to remember to do things in the short term especially when multiple tasks are needed in one day or at the same time.

I have ADHD after all......consistently inconsistent is the hall mark of ADHD! lol

I use to be much worse here....but it has improved over time and is steadily improving with more structure I have in place. I've found I do great when the structure is already there for me ( created by someone else in my past like at work) but creating this in the first place for myself and trying to rely on my (good rote memory) and trying to operate without the structure there to compensate for my scattered attention (my challenge in having to think about more than one thing at a time or in redirecting myself and changing gears fluently ) is where I have consistently failed.

This is what I'm working hard to correct right now. This is definitely an ADHD thing I'm running up against here.

As far as messiness? This what I know? Am I messy? If you look at the results of what I do....as I said....I'm nearly a perfectionist when I apply the results to what I want.

But while I'm in the process of doing it......I make huge messes and that is in part...due to my ADHD.

What I'm not, is neat and tidy in my methodology. If I focus on that while I'm trying to work at the same time......I don't do either well and the results suffer.

If the results are the priority.....I have no issues what so ever.

If the results AND staying neat and organized as I go are both a priority.....then everything suffers including the results. This is what I have come to understand that are my limitations and I have to plan things accordingly to minimize the impact these things have on me and others.

I've learned if I can't clean as I go (nearly impossible for me but I still make attempts with little progress at times)....or I compromise between cleaning as I go and working until I'm finished with a big mess at the end....if I force myself to stop in the middle....clean up the mess....and continue until I'm finished..... This splits the difference with my challenges with switching gears to only switching gears as little as possible but not avoiding it entirely. That seems to work pretty well for me as long as my wife can live with things being a mess for short durations at a time.

And to say she's not happy with that much is an understatement but right now....that's as good as it gets until I learn to clean as I go better with the slow progress that is coming with practice. This is where I know myself well enough to not make being like her my goal.

I will never be like her in that respect and I never want to be. The amount of stress and worry I see her in all the time in trying to KEEP things perfect....is driving her and me crazy at times and that's where the point of diminishing returns starts coming into play.

I think it's reasonable to stay just this side of the line of demarcation for diminishing returns in service of perfection. If your tolerance point is "0" for things being out of place.....you'll never bake a cake unless you can break a few eggs and this is where my wife fails in her own right to see that she spend more time maintaining than she does producing or creating.

At the end of the day....what she wants is to have both from me but she doesn't do both herself even though that IS what she expects from me. (her denial again) This is where the majority of our conflicts begin and end right there......at that line of demarcation at the point of diminishing returns? She lives on the other side of the line....and I stop where that line is and won't go across it.

I see her not doing things she could....from the fear of failure and not being perfect.

And I see myself not doing things from the fear that I won't be able to do them in the way I need to do them without the complaining or criticism along the way in the process of doing it.

Failure from my perspective is just part of the learning process and to be expected.

Failure for her means...... never doing that thing again.

My failure up to this point....is allowing the fear of having my process derailed by her in order to accomplish my task and that has prevented me from not continuing forward with what I know is the right way for me despite anything that my wife has said to the contrary. At this point.....I know what I need to do to get the job done and I can't use my wife as the gage for my own performance.

At the end to the day....she's happy with the results....but hates the process. We're working on that part together so we can find the point that she can still be outside her comfort zone but for as short a time as possible. She really doesn't like this but......I have plenty I don't like about how she does things and the motivation behind it as I was pointing out.

She wastes time from my perspective and I'm trying to conserve time and be more time conscious and these two things ( approaches) do not mix together well.

We have to meet in the middle at some point and we're getting closer on that as time goes on:)

A view from outside

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 16:27

I see two of these things as just the normal part of the normal day. If it was me washing the cheese grater, and there was dried on cheese, and the last person to use it was standing near me, I would just mention it too. No reprimand. No complaint. Just stating something to put into the ol' memory bank for the next time the cheese grated got used.

Same as the trash. If it was full/overflowing in the midst of making dinner, the bag gets tied up, a new bag put in, and the bag is run out to the trash bin, and the dinner-making process continues. Just as simple as "Could you hand me a knife out of that drawer?" Or maybe when your wife asked you about the trash a second time - well maybe her current past experiences are that she needs to remind or it may not get done?

I tend to get on auto-pilot and I am the "Tidy-Up-Robot." If I walk by a coffee mug, and no one is near, it just gets picked up and put in the sink. My son has been known to take out the ketchup, set it on the counter, walk out of the kitchen for a second, and when he comes back , the ketchup is gone, because Mom walked through and automatically put it away.

For me, it is as simple as "A stitch in time saves 9." If I wait till the end of the day, there is a huge mess to clean up.

Liz

That's Perfect-O Liz

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 17:34

"If it was me washing the cheese grater, and there was dried on cheese, and the last person to use it was standing near me, I would just mention it too. No reprimand. No complaint. Just stating something to put into the ol' memory bank for the next time the cheese grated got used." perfect Liz!

And that works for exactly the reason you said.....just a "hint" or "maybe for next time" in order to put that seed in there and then just let it grow. If you stand there and pour water on it and keep pouring hoping to speed that up....well?

Repetition is how you learn. Repeating reminders helps the person learning the process. Good for you on all accounts. This is how you do it!

Here's something that I have known all my life without anyone telling me.....(before and after I was diagnosed) When I try and clean and stay tidy while I'm doing something ( like cooking or that requires my full attention....I fail and burn the dinner ) How do I know this? From burning lots of dinners! lol

So no matter how many times someone tells me "a stich in time....." it doesn't change the fact that I ADHD and I will burn the dinner even if I remember that. This I know.

Now.....instead of saying....." I know....I've tried.....I failed.....and it doesn't work." I'm willing to try and fail over and over until I can get it down. That is.....as long as the person wanting dinner is Okay with a few TV dinners instead of the Steak I burned while cleaning the cheese grater! lol

Just so you know......I did buy a Smart Watch with timers and notifications ( I can send myself texts) and I am just now getting this set up and getting use to how it works and trying to get this dialed in. So far ....so good. I can't lose it or misplace it sinces it's attached to my body....plus......it's a watch and tells time.

I figure if I only have one thing to look at that does all of this and it's strapped to my arm.....that's pretty much covers it all, don't you think? I'm thinking about this as I write this now that once I get use to it and start relying on the timer function......I can use it to cook the Steak and clean the cheese grater and do both at the same time.

Oh....one more thing about the Smart Watch....it vibrates!! ha! No excuses:)

I bought my wife one for her birthday and so far....she loves her too. Pretty cool.

If anyone is interested......I picked the LG WatchR w110 because it's dust and water resistant and actually looks like a regular watch so I don't feel like George Jetson wearing it. (you can't tell it's a smart watch at all)

My wifes is a Samsung GearS2 3g since it has built in GPS and she uses that to find address' and navigate without her phone nearby. Her's will receive and send calls all by itself without having to have her phone with her and it's a little more user friendly. I'd say either one is a good choice depending on?

Great Idea J!

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 18:07

Guess what? Now I know what I am getting my son for his birthday. A Smart Watch! THANK YOU for the heads up :D And keep us posted on how it is working for you!

I see some complains about your watch at Amazon so am considering your wife's watch. Does hers also vibrate?

Delphine

Yes It Does.....If I Had to Pick One For Someone

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 03/09/2016 - 07:21

I'd go with the Samsung overall. Mine is not as user friendly but it has a couple of things I like better than the Samsung....namely.....Android Wear OS. The Samsung has a unique OS (Tizen) that has been used in other applications and proven to work there but there are limitations in the App's available and not everything through Google is compatible (yet) but I hear that's changing quickly.

The LG is fussier to get set up and is a little more difficult to find things on it. I think that's just the learning curve more than anything. The big difference with the Samsung is that it will work stand alone without your phone Bluetooth paired with the watch so you can leave your phone at home and it will work without it.

That's a nice feature but I wasn't willing to spend that kind of money for something I wasn't sure about yet plus....I'm hard on jewelry because of the work I do. (with my hands) Being a jeweler/goldsmith......I like the idea of a watch looking like a watch too. Just personal preference...

The other advantage of the LG is standard replacement watch bands (leather) so you have lots of options available and the face is a little larger diameter and easier to see and I think it's more comfortable to wear all day. The Samsung band will only work with that watch so when it wears out.....you have no other options. 6 one....1/2 dozen the other I think ( little things) and both do the job.

The Samsung is really easy to use and seems to work flawlessly for my wife....I'd probably go with that if I had to pick one over the other after trying both all things considered?

Thanks for info

Submitted by Delphine on Wed, 03/09/2016 - 17:20

Very helpful, thanks J. They both sound great, will think on it!
Son's b'day is next month :)

Delphine

Delphine, your son?

Submitted by NonADHD on Wed, 03/09/2016 - 10:05

Hi,

So here's my question, why do you use an excuse for your son weh he cursed at you? In my case, and I'm not saying everyone has the same issues, but I know from experiencing a child and an adult with ADHD that these symptoms are common in both, the early stages of ADHD on a child's cognition and the manifested ADHD in an adult. What I see my wife doing to my step son (who has ADHD) is the same thing, making excuses to focus on something else instead of the anger problem. I;m witnessing a child and an adult with ADHD. I see how it begins and how it manifests all in the same moment in time. I see mny step son frustrated with simple tasks, and when he gets frustrated, it turns into explosive tantrum, he throws things (breaks everything) is argumentative,, blames others (me) for what he just did, and as he grips everyone with the shock and awe of explosive anger, rage, my wife dances around it. That same anger and explosiveness comes out in adults and I have witnessed both. But the child build terrible coping and understanding skills if none of it is addressed. Luckily, a child doesn't linger with the anger and in minutes the child can be focused on something else as if nothing happened. With adults, the anger can be sustained, and that's what happened in my case. I think we are finally coming out of this as we (my wife and I ) finally had a long talk without her being defensive, it was an adult talk. I had to wait for her to come to that, almost 2 months of waiting. Now I know the most important thing is for me, just as a parent of an ADHD child must do, prevention of the tantrum. It's very sad to see, the tantrum, explosion of anger, and most adults do not understand it, the immediate reaction is to talk to it, try and make sense to the child, why its wrong, the repercussions and effects of such behavior, but as we know, that doesn't work at all. The tantrums must be part of the ADHD condition.

Isolated Incident

Submitted by Delphine on Wed, 03/09/2016 - 17:52

That instance, D, is the only time I can recall his cursing at me in the four years he was here. He gave me the finger once, back when he was still a preteen, and
I let him know that was totally unacceptable. He apologized.

Yes, he can get argumentative, sarcastic etc., and is a pain to be around sometimes. (I'm not perfect either, of course.) He also shows his love and caring in many and various ways. I did point out to him once that he was seizing any opportunity to be sarcastic, and his attitude softened.

We hug a lot--I insist on it. I think partners of ADHD would do well to keep physical affection going at every opportunity.

You know the saying, "Choose your battles." I subscribe to that. I think the best way to prevent tantrums is just to stay cool ourselves, and detach from the drama. (And yes, I know this is often easier said than done.)
Glad your wife is coming around and you had a good long talk.

Delphine

Pick your battles..

Submitted by NonADHD on Fri, 03/11/2016 - 11:39

Delphine,

I agree with you to pick your battles. My wife does an excellent job with her son, my step son, he also has ADHD and at times he's extremey difficult. But she is excellent with him. I also agree with affection. As I watch my step son, I see the struggles a child goes through dealing with the cognitive issues. He too has explosive anger, mostly from the build up of frustration. My wife does a great job to monitor his frustration level, even when it explodes. To witness this as a non ADHD ste father is hard to watch. No matter what I say, passive or aggressive has no impact. It must be very hard when a child reaches an age where they can start to see the cause and effect of their actions. What disappoints me is that, I want to understand how best for all of us in my family to deal with it, but my wife has denial and does not admit that it is an issue. So when she explodes, and goes silent on me, for long lengths of time, she must know what it is doing to her, to us and to our future. I know she denies it because she skates away from it when I bring it up, and I have. I do see hope and a way to talk about these things bit right now, all the external conditions, the stimuli, are continuing to trigger her negative ADHD symptoms. Once this stops, then we will be able to gain positive ground.

Me too Liz!

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 17:33

"Tidy-Up Robot." Auto-pilot cleaning...yes, that is me. I think that's true of a lot of women.

As I've posted, my son recently moved out and I got a gay man for a roomie. So far he's been just about perfect and hasn't made any more work for me re cleaning up, etc.

Whew! Now I have more time for other things :)

Let it Go. But I am Frozen

Submitted by jennalemone on Wed, 03/09/2016 - 11:06

There is something in all this that does apply to me as you are seeing in your wife. The guilting, sabotage and self victimizing that I can be guilty of. Becoming passive aggressive.

My mother was like most mothers of the time. Household work was her domain. Dad never was in the kitchen other than to eat. Also, women were encouraged to be "feminine" and to NOT be SELFISH and that included NOT being assertive (that was too manly in those days) so they used guilt and shame (a tactic of the church so must be OK in old Puritan minds) to passively try to manage things. Now here us women of a certain age are, with one foot in the days of "women's work" and one foot in the days of "love yourself and have boundaries" of today. When we see our husbands in the kitchen doing "women's work" there is still a small voice in our heads that says, "You are not doing your job as a housewife - yes, I said it - it is still part of some of our psyche even though we are professional wage earners, our mothers were housewives who taught us the guilt of not keeping our houses in order - Some of us feel it is our responsibility similar to how some men feel the cars and the yard are their responsibilities, while also....feeling as if we are slaves for working full time AND taking care of the house and we need some sharing of jobs. Some of us do not allow ourselves to TELL our husband's when and where we want them to take over some of these tasks because we feel shame that we are not doing it all ourselves AND at the same time enraged that we expect ourselves to do too much. Some of us feel we MUST do it all yet don't want men in the kitchen - the domain of our mothers. It is a transition in our culture that we bear and we are at odds with ourselves.

But back to the guilting and sabotage thing you were talking about in the big picture outside of the kitchen, "A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance."

I think this is happening at our house. Not learned from my childhood but rather from the history of our marriage. The more I strive to compensate for his messiness and lack of integrity and responsibility, the more he tries to compensate for my lack of physical fun and laughter. I don't trust him and he wants me to be physically intimate with him. If you were to talk to him, he would probably say that he wants to have more fun and sex in our marriage and let the housework go and live happy. He does not admit that he has not made a living for the past 15 years. We are both over compensating for the weaknesses that we see in each other. I don't want intimacy with someone I can't trust and he is not inspired to work things out with someone who is not giving him what he needs and believes he is entitled to. He tells me he loves the fantasy of the woman who sings, "I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never let him forget he is a man".

Mrs Brown's talk hit me the same way J

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 22:32

(I believe that shame or being shamed is at the core for much of the behavior you see with many people with ADHD.)

Yep anything that makes a person feel different or insecure can create this shame. I think it effects most people if we will be honest. I know I have had issues in the past and still have some that I let hold me captive just because I kept it push back into the dark places of my mind. The fear of bringing it to the light kept me bound...

I also know that much of my shame was self inflicted because of free will...When I made choices I knew went against nature, things I knew were sinful and wrong (no one had to tell me) it produced shame and hiding. I think we can get so over come with shame that we will fight against it in different ways. Political stands "Accept me like I am" and if you don't your wrong! People will do about anything to feel good about themselves (rid themselves of shame) or at least I have....

There is always an answer, but, many times in my life, I couldn't see the answer, or if I could, I didn't want it...Many times it just took facing it ( bringing light to it) and Accepting it....But, just as often to rid myself of my shame it took Repentance (to turn from) and a new path....

For J, on Boxing

Submitted by jennalemone on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 09:46

J, I looked for that boxing reference you mentioned from Brene and couldn't find one. BUT I found THIS about boxing and Brene online:

According to Brene, Vulnerability is the core of all emotion. To feel is to be vulnerable, so to view vulnerability as weak is to believe that feeling is weak. Boxers have to know what they are feeling and contain the feelings so they can perform without stuff getting in the way. It never works to fight emotionally. It’s not weak to feel emotional, but it is a detriment to have the emotion rule your actions. When a boxer digs in, it isn’t really emotion they are digging into… it’s the strength they developed from their everyday life to be vulnerable that they dig into. They actually dig into more vulnerability and risk getting hurt to perform at entirely new levels. Quoted from: http://www.fuelforthemachine.com/edges-and-angles/2014/5/31/boxing-and-v...

I was looking for the reference because I detest boxing and can't imagine why people produce it and enjoy watching it. Yet, I recognise that there is a lesson here for me because I am not good at fighting the good fight. I used to back out of a confrontation thinking that fighting is stupid. But now I am trying to learn how to hold my own ground when necessary and have the emotional intelligence to stay in the ring in a GOOD way. I am sending this for your benefit....maybe you can enjoy the sport without guilt.

But also for my own and maybe others's benefit. FIGHTING. Vying for prominence or control seems to be what many of us are wrestling with inside of ourselves and with our partners. Especially passive aggressive fighting. Who has the control of how we live our lives together? Who gets to choose how clean our house is? Who gets to choose to save or to spend?

I am working on learning about dominance and emotional competency these days.

Interesting Jenna Thanks

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 02/25/2016 - 13:01

I didn't hear her say anything specifically about boxing in the talk she gave but the very thing that she mentioned (specifically ) is the very thing that I can relate to for the same reason. From an observational perspective.....the audience is experiencing emotions of all kinds when they are witnessing a sporting event. For the participant or person performing (whether it be sports, theater, music etc) Emotions do very much get in the way of the job at hand. The job of performance or the doing of the activity requires you to separate yourself from the audience and your emotions,your body (pain) and focus entirely on what you are doing and how you are doing it.

I very much relate to this and this is exactly what it feels like. In essence....you aren't performing FOR the audience....they just exist there as a witness. You really are performing for yourself and everything else just falls to the way side including emotions and feelings. In that respect....you become more like a machine. It is not personal and it's not emotional. Only after wards when your job is done is when you look back or feel any emotions what so ever. The crowd and the noise they make might as well be coming through a speaker in that the audience really no longer exists. That's the feeling this has for you and self consciousness falls to the way side for the moment. To perform at your peak and even the desire to win seems to disappear as well. Winning or losing doesn't matter any more....only making it through and doing it the best you can. When the dust settles.....is when you check to see how well you did and have any thoughts outside this....almost automatic or instinctual at that point.

This describes exactly what she said. A boxer isn't angry either before or after the competition at his opponent and fighting isn't from emotion in that regard....you could liken it to a dance or even ballet except for the fact that hitting the opposing side is part of the dance you are doing. I knew this when she mentioned violence in the speech she gave but I was not sure how or if that would apply. Interesting that she used the same example for pointing out this difference herself.

What I was applying here was the same thing that you mentioned as far as detesting boxing. You're not alone....many people find it repulsive as a spectator sport since the point is to try and knock your opponent unconscious if you can to win. Either that or hit the person as many times as you can in the scoring areas of the body. How badly you hurt someone gains you no more points than if you hit them half as hard in the same spot..... only that if you knock them out....you automatically win. I'm not trying to sell you on boxing....I'm only reiterating that the goal or premise is not to hurt or injure your opponent and certainly not because you are angry at them or have any emotions towards them either good or bad.

From an observational stand point however....it can be a brutal thing to watch. From the perspective of a sport....it's not the brutality that is attractive....it is the skill and physical prowess and the ability that you admire especially if you have experienced this yourself even in a different form. It is a sense of appreciation and awe you have in the work and training and the physical ability that draws you in and you admire. The brutality or violence is just an accepted part and accepted up front by both competitors.

After I read what you wrote....I realized the guilt I was experiencing and where it came from. In essence.....I don't have any personal guilt for enjoying it as much as the people who participate don't feel guilty either. The guilt comes from possibly feeling that there is something to said for the reasons you detest it....but now I realize that this would only be that I enjoyed the violence or brutality of it and got some kind of sick pleasure from watching two people hurting each other. In that respect....it's not the reason I enjoy it but.....the fear could possibly be that others who don't see it that way could only see it as a sick pleasure coming from a maladjusted desire to enjoy pain and suffering of others. In reality....the boxers themselves are not suffering at all and are getting something out it in a positive way simply from a sporting and competitive perspective the same as any other sport. For them....it's no different what so ever and they aren't doing it do get some kick out of beating each other up either. It is in every respect....a game or sport just like anything else. Taking on the guilt or shame that others hand to you is up to you to determine if it's appropriate or not.

For you that is not for them. I guess each person must make that choice for themselves at the end of the day. But to make that choice and not be driven too it or compelled by outside forces.....you have to be in control of it in order to think it through in order to make that choice in the first place and not be pushed, pulled or hijacked by your emotions.

That's not saying we will always make the right choice....but at least that choice is not being made for you which is the most important part or message to take away from this. If that makes sense?

Mood swings

Submitted by triedandtrue on Wed, 03/09/2016 - 14:25

The emotional lability (mood swings) present in many people with ADHD is indeed a core symptom of the disorder. It involves the brain's limbic system. As you have discovered, methods that work well with other children (explaining actions and their consequences, punishing inappropriate behavior, etc.) are often ineffective with ADHD children. For information on what works to deal with tantrums in ADHD kids, additudemag.com is a very good resource. For ADHD adults, and some ADHD kids, meds can help moderate moods. Agonists have been known to work; see Melissa's posts on meds. Anti-depressants are useful. Such meds can be taken in addition to stimulants and other meds to treat ADHD. For many with ADHD, behavioral strategies to prevent raging and oppositional outbursts (e.g., blaming) simply do not work without mood-stabilizing medication. Having to wait 2 months to have an adult conversation with one's spouse is a good example. It can help to remember that this is a developmental disorder, with maturational lags. Best of luck to you.

In Layman Terms.....triedandtrue

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 03/16/2016 - 12:46

I wanted to mention something earlier when I read your post (applying this to what D is really searching for in understanding this) but it wasn't until just this morning, that my wife came to me and asked me..."Are we going to make it? I don't think you understand what these fights we have are doing to me and the damage they do to me?"

This was an incredible moment that I have been waiting for a very long time to hear from her. In the context in which she was saying this....this was her opening up and starting to listen. I've answered this question literally a hundreds of times for her already....but I've come to understand how learning works and repetition and repeating the same thins over and over is what is needed to have a full understanding of anything.

Applying this to what you said and now taking the opportunity to say what I told my wife.....I want to take one thing you said out of the context in which you said it.... and put into the context of what I said to my wife and provide a better understanding (overall) to this issue from the person who has ADHD. I'm giving myself credit enough to do this accurately and explain this in a way that I think will give everyone here a better overall understanding of this. Specifically? To give anyone here an integrated approach to this to help you avoid the problems this creates you. (for everyone involved)

What you said here.... "Having to wait 2 months to have an adult conversation with one's spouse is a good example." Without spending any time with how I personally reacted to this statement ( irrelevant to what I want to say ) I did immediately go...."Okay wait a minute.....everything else you said here is completely relevant before and after this statement including the developmental and maturational lags. But this doesn't apply to me at all?"

But.... I'm not even going to defend against the statement itself. On the contrary....what ever your personal experience is with ADHD or someone who has it is exactly what it is.

The fact that you prefaced these things by saying "for many with ADHD" goes even further in helping explain this and puts it right into the context that I was applying this to my wife as well. Perfect. I hope D is reading this because I think this will also help him as well.

Going back to the conversation now with my wife and what I told her....Her experience is with me and me alone. She doesn't know anyone else with ADHD that she is having to deal with on this level. As I am saying this.....I am only one person with ADHD and that's the most important point I want to make here.......

my response to my wife (for the 999'th time for both of us )

" I do.... clearly understand the damage this does to you. If you said it to me a 1000 more times......I could not know that any better than I do now (in a compassionate tone and posture). I so appreciate you saying to me that "your ways" (as she is calling them) you are aware of.....and that these "ways" you have cause me and others to react negatively towards you. All I have ever asked of you....is to understand that there are things within "your ways" that are damaging to me as well. You are very focused on the damage that I cause you and all I have ever done was to try and simply point out that these little daggers you throw at me all the time are like tiny daggers to my heart. Any one or two of them I can deal with without a problem. But as you brought this up......in having to deal with my emotional lability "ISSUE" when referring to the times when I lose control of my anger which is directly causing the damage as you are applying it.....this doesn't happen everyday or even every other day. It happens so rarely and they are so infrequent in comparison to the 100's of daggers to my heart that I experience from you in comparison.... the sheer quantity or volume of negativity and damage that I receive from you on a daily basis is pale in comparison? Not even on the same planet if you were trying to keep score? It's as if by simply walking into the room....it's as if.... you are sitting in a machine gun nest and waiting for me to come into range and being sprayed with bullets to my heart all day.....every day...and this never ends. The fact that I pull out a Cannon and blow your machine gun to smithereens is only in response to this from my end. I can imagine.....being destroyed like this could only do that kind damage to you in the response that comes from me each and every time I hit my threshold of tolerance break point and can't take one more dagger than I can possibly stand and that's my failure each and every time this happens. This is what we do to each other. All I have ever asked of you....is not to completely change or that you don't have a good reason to be angry all the time. I know it. I feel it and you remind me of this on a daily basis along with the the thousand of daggers to my heart that go along with it.

"All I have ever asked of you....is to be allowed to tell you what those daggers are so you can be aware of them, and the damage they do to me.....even if they are so small and insignificant to the Cannon I pull out and use on you....even if you feel that they are so small and insignificant they shouldn't be hurting me any more than what I do in hurting you in the same way....you need to believe this is happening and you are doing this to me in a steady stream that has no end to it. I never get a break or get any relief or a chance to heal from this ever as long as you keep this up and I'm not allowed to say anything or tell you what you are doing to hurt me in this way. This is what will kill us if we both don't stop doing this to each other."

Emotional lability in layman terms....is the threshold point of tolerance emotionally which is lower than other people given the exact same stimulus. That means.....other peoples tolerance to the same things are going to be greater to these things without it having the same effect on you. When that threshold point is reached....you become overwhelmed and at that point....you've got nothing left in your ability to think your way out of it and not lose control of your emotions.

If you've never experienced this yourself.....you're not human or something is wrong with you. At some point in time.....everyone experiences overwhelm and when that happens....you are not in control of your emotions. The only difference between someone with ADHD and someone who doesn't have it....is where that threshold point is and what you are able to tolerate. This is different from one person to the next and no two people are exactly the same. That includes (ALL) people with ADHD as well.

The one counter-acting factor( or variable) to this comes from emotional intelligence along with maturity. This is separate from the emotional liability itself which makes it a variable...not a direct link for causation. That means....depending on this one variable itself.....will depend on how well a person can control it....and account for the difference between one person with ADHD and the next. The more this variable is developed.....the more control that person will have and this is different for ALL people depending on many other different factors as well.

So as I read what you said about having to wait two months to have an adult conversation with one's spouse....I went "yep.....that's it. That's exactly what that means. I have never been like you've described and have never not been able to have an adult conversation with (as an adult past the age of 30 or so? Even though that was a little delayed compared to a lot of people I know....it wasn't as far removed from many people I knew who were worse than me in comparison. That maturation lag as it seemed....stayed pretty constant but only in relationship to where everyone else was at the time. And from that point in time....that gap and the lag slowly closed and I even over took many people that I know in comparison after that happened. In other words.....it didn't stop and I didn't stop maturing and gaining more and more emotional intelligence as time went on. I see myself clearly as someone who has never stopped growing , developing and maturing. and along with it.....my ability to control my anger and other emotions along with it.

Having said that......I cannot speak for anyone here but myself and that include All other people with ADHD as well. I simply can't speak for them and can't know how they are in comparison. But I still have my emotional lability challenges when my threshold point is reached and I become overwhelmed just like I was when I was a kid. The difference is.....that threshold point and my tolerance level changed along with my maturity level and cognitive ability to reason and move that to a much higher level than it was 25 years ago.

So as I am seeing this now.....the meds and everything you've said here is right on the money. The only difference in the statement that you made about having an adult conversation.....i can only conclude that this is the experience you are having and the one counter-acting variable that accounts for the difference. I firmly believe that this ONE variable is the "WHY" one person with ADHD can be so different compared to the next when it comes to how they react and at what level that happens IMHO.

For what it's worth (my opinion that is lol ).....I think it would serve anyone with someone with ADHD to be looking at the person you are with....and trying to determine where their break point or threshold or tolerance level is and not try and use ALL people with ADHD as a means to find answers for your specific situation. The specific person your are with...is going to have their own specific set point and tolerance level when it comes to emotional lability.......and being aware of that this threshold or tolerance point is there....you need to find out approximately where it is and what you can do to stay this side of it.

That will serve you in countless ways if you can understand this and use this to your advantage in your relationship I guarantee it. If you follow what I'm saying.....you can see why this simply won't help you know what you need to do for your specific situation and use that as a means to apply it your own because everyone with ADHD is different and different in this way.

All things considered....know the one your with?

Medication As the Cure?

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 03/16/2016 - 13:04

I also wanted to relate one more thought to my last comment. By the time I first started taking any medication at all for my ADHD....I had been in therapy for 5 years with my therapist (who also has mild ADHD). It wasn't until then that I told him I wanted to try it and see if it would help me. He didn't ever recommend it....and I was the one who brought it up. He has two sons and one with ADHD and I don't think his son is taking medication either if I remember it? That includes my therapist as well.( no meds). He is neither for them or against them but believes they are not the cure all for everything. ( his personal approach at least ) This is based however on severity and each person individually.

Once I began medication....I noticed a lot of things and changes happening with me and my capacities were definitely expanded. The one thing that I did not notice however....was a marked change in my ability to control my emotions (the emotional lability). If anything.....my threshold point dropped from where it was but only by a small amount at first. This took some readjusting and realigning some things to get that evened out again. The point here that I think is a legitimate one is further making the same point I made about emotional intelligence and cognitive ability. The meds expand your capacities but do not change the relationship you have or the abilities you have to control your emotions by themselves. You still need to apply it and use your expanded range to make any differences at all. It does make it easier to do this however.....but it's not necessary at all in order to do this even with out them.

This is where I cannot speak for anyone else with ADHD. A persons skills and abilities in these areas are all going to be dependent on a lot of other variables I think.... and not being an expert on ADHD on that level makes it impossible for me to say what will or won't work for another person who has it (along with severity and the impact it has on each person individually) Just another thing to add here to provide a better overall understanding?

Hi, Nonadhd, the shut down

Submitted by dedelight4 on Mon, 07/11/2016 - 00:16

Hi, Non, nice to have you here, but certainly wish it were under different circumstances. :) You're among friends here for sure.

My adhd husband has always done something similar to what your wife is doing, and that is shutting down and not talking when there NEEDS to be talking.

I'm not sure why they choose to disengage, get defensive and deflect any and all discomfort they don't want to deal with. But at the same time, allow their spouses to absorb the brunt of their anger, hurt and leave them with tons of unanswered questions.

It's so unfathomable, for many of us, yet it's our daily reality. Like you, I wanted my marriage to work so bad, but he checked out long ago and never bothered to inform ME about it. He stayed bodily but his mind, focus, love, devotion, attention......everything was somewhere ELSE. And, yet he still prides himself for staying and"taking care of me", which made me livid. He took the same vows I did, but they weren't the same to him.

Sut down

Submitted by NonADHD on Mon, 07/11/2016 - 06:36

Hi DeDE,

Are you seperated, divorced? My wife is really upset and this is the longest we have beeen a part. It has got to be due to my step sons dad. Shes blaming me for questioning her on issues in our marriage. It always happens when I think we can talk because she wants to act like all is perfect and yet, we dont kiss, touch, talk, we are in seperate bedrooms, my step son (10 years old) sleeps with her !!! Its so dysfunctional and all I want is some type of balance and normalcy but its NOT MY CALL !!! I feel so controlled, I have no say so. I have thought of this for a while, to seperate, but I dont want that, I love her and I don't want to leave. She like snapped, went over the edge. This is so unacceptable, I deserve better from her.

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