I have to let go. My concept of work is so different than my wife's and we approach things so differently....I need to let go.
My idea of what is work...and what is not work?
If you don't break a sweat and need a shower at the end of the day...you're not working
If it doesn't hurt or you feel no pain.....you're not working
If you aren't sore and tired at the end of the day....you're not working
If your muscles don't ache and you don't feel the burn while you're working....you're not working
If you aren't wringing wet from the top of you're head to the sole's of your feet....you're not working
If you aren't ready to drop from exhaustion at the end of the day......you're not working
Work is work....and everything is just dicking off.
I realized when I made the comment that I'm not 25 any more (59)....that I'm fighting against losing my ability to work and I hate it. But that's only because my perception of work needs to be modified. I also realized that recently, I felt like have never seen my wife...actually "work" in my opinion only because I have never seen her sweat when she works. I do think however....there is something to said about the division of labor that involves sweating that needs to be considered. Work that makes you sweat...is harder than work that doesn't. Hard work, needs to be a consideration when talking about division of labor. But I need to bring the level down...and give myself a break. I'm not longer 25 any more and my expectations of my wife need to be lowered to an acceptable level along with my own.
I need to let go.
This video reminded me of this. In swimming...our couch (very much like this) called them over and under's and we did them at the end of the work out which he made sure....if you had anything left at the end.......he'd squeeze that right out of you too. It still amazes me...what you can do with the right motivation. I think that part still applies even at age 59. The satisfaction you get when you're done however....is incredible. I think it can still be found...doing it another way? What that is.....I have yet to find exactly? Intensity...or....duration? I think duration is the key when I'm considering this and pacing myself? I was always a sprinter.....I think distance is a better goal and taking longer at this stage in my life is a better plan.
Letting go
J
I agree, you need to let go
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I agree, you need to let go of this concept of work. Or at least of tying your self-image and self-esteem to "sweating a lot while doing something." But I disagree that work that makes a person sweat is necessarily harder than work that doesn't.
I love work.
Submitted by jennalemone on
i am just putting out a whole bunch of.....guesses out there.
I am guessing that your mother did not make a "good" impression on you as to a life that you would want to assimilate.
I am guessing that your father did not make a "good" impression on you as to a life that you would want of assimilate.
I am guessing that you had a sports coach for a short time that you could identify with and that you COULD want to follow his example and WANT to be more like him. I am guessing that your coach left a lasting impression. BUT that the short time you got to hang around him and that you really didn't get to know completely if he was REAL, that the role model you aspired to was not strong enough for you to "partner with his soul".
I also did not have that youthful person to connect with, identify with. No mentor was stronger than my early childhood mother and father of my youth.
My parents were from a culture and generation that was good for direction - the "bible stories" of "how to be." but they were not examples/models of living life in "how to be". I don't to this day know "how to be".
Blessed are those who have superiors in young life who model for us "how to be".
Anyway....WORK. I love work. When I forget that I love work and try to comfort myself or give myself a pleasure of leisure, I am at a loss - pointless.
When I think of people leading my way on how I want to be, I list:
It is not a long and strong list. I believe that people who are blessed with a big group of people/family/mentors are those who do best in the world.
My college friends, who I always have been thankful for, have been not great examples of whom I would want to pattern my life after. They have been rather people I have felt comfortable with. They have been letting me down for decades but I didn't want to acknowledge that. I think I will make work of cultivating people who are more like me and who challenge me me in a good way.
Anyway, I love work. When I give myself over to vengeful action of leisure before work, I feel like a sloth, a loser, an evil person who does not feel the need to be a part of humanity's work of preparing/finding resources/coordinating.
I just finished cleaning up (scooping up dirt and filth and messy chaos) my H's "office". 10 buckets of dirty water later.....I feel like the work was good for me. Even though H does not appreciate it, I felt good about the work.
I like work. It is what makes me who I am. Full time leisure is for idiots.
Work Ethic and Mentors....Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
I really appreciate the feedback and there IS a lot in what you said even if it's not right on the "money" as they say. Just so you know....I really like to do what you are doing here with other people as well.... but I have found not everyone is comfortable or enjoys it....that is....second guessing or playing Devils advocate.
So I will tell you....what is really true for me in reality that I have already worked through to know for myself. (the fun of doing this with another person to see if your right?) Now it's my turn to tell you how right you are!! lol
(no fun in doing this if the other person can't tell you or gets annoyed right?? lol Part of having a meaningful conversation??? lol )
Well...I think it's fun ...so here's the deal:)
I really did bond and have the relationship you were speculating with my swim coach due to the amount of time I spent with him...and then even later, after I was out of High School so in some respects...he was the father I never had and had more of a positive effect on my life than my father ever had since I did model after him in all good ways and had that model to work from.
Time spent with my swim coach compared to my own father.
Daily/weekly basis for 12 solid years (formative ones age 6 to 18 )
Father. on average: 1/2 hour a day during meals. Meals consisted of...inhaling food as fast as you could so you could get back to doing what ever you were doing. Mostly listened to my father talk negatively about his employees and complain about them and only to turn to me with a mouth full of food to tell me never to be like these loser employees who were all lesser than he was of course. If you can picture this....this was how I defined (not taught actually ) how NOT to be. All I heard was venting and complaining which was not for my benefit or course. And then I got the hell away from him as quickly as I could once my food was swallowed and I could leave the table and go back to pursue more positive pursuits and things I enjoyed that were interesting and fun plus.....I was worn out from swim work outs (in a good way) and had that positive energy I brought home with me. If I said anything when asked how was my day... or.... what I did...the answer was always "Okay.....nothing" LOL.
What you mean "nothing" ?
"I don't know....nothing I guess?"(lol)
"Kids these days....they don't know what they're missing. They don't learn anything"..spoken to the forum of my mother with the rest of our entire family just sitting there chewing in silence and just listening to him gripe and complain.
If you have ever watched the father on "That 70's Show"....they must have known my father since they used him as the role model for that character!! LOL Identical in everyway!!! It was so perfect lol I'm not even reaching here:) I can laugh now....then.....not so much!! lol
https://youtu.be/pjhU-UWnxBM
Pretty standard stuff I guess for a kid and being a conversationalist. lol
Weekly on average: (since he traveled every month to varying degrees) 2 hrs total on average per week.
My swim coach on the other hand......
2- 3 hours per day....and then on every other or 3rd weekend at swim meets (the entire weekend sometimes because of 2 day meets both Sat and Sun from 7:00am - 5:00pm) For those same 12 years.
Then in High School....he was my High School Swim Coach because he was a teacher there coincidentally because of my proximity where I lived. So he was my High School Coach...and my regualr private team Coach.
Then when I was a Senior in High School...(coinsidently ...again??) He was my teacher for Social/Science Studies ( I got an A of course but only because I worked hard for him there too )
He was also the Water Polo coach which I was also part of during High School too. When I was a senior...all the team got to vote for who they wanted Captain of the team and he had proxy vote veto if he so pleased. He took me aside and said "If they don't vote for you....I'm over riding them and making you Captain any way (for both Teams lol ) I did get the unanimous vote...but his early endorsement was what I remember.
Then...after High School....I got a job as High School Swim Coach at a differebt school than the one I went to but in the same district I went to originally in my last year of college ( moved back home locally) where I finished my last year and graduated from the city State U and transferred there to play water polo again at the college level since my other school (U of Oregon) out of town didn't have an established collegiate team at the time.
So now....I'm my coaches competitor... and I'm the coach and now we sit side by side together during the meets. This was what you were speculating might not have happened but yes it did. So funny to actually get to know him that way. He was as big a kid...(if not more) than I was and now he's the trouble maker and prankster that I always knew he had it in him (birds of a feather...know each other that way!!! lol )
One time before the High School meet...I had to arrive early as all the coachs do. He looks at me come in and says 'hey....c'mon"...and I follow him into the storage meeting room attached to the pool where the Pop vending machine from last weekends meet was sitting against the wall. He grabs a cup and hands it to me...and then fills up his cup and I follow him and fill mine and we have a "drink" together and just shooting the shit and I ask him." how do you motivate so well...what's the secret?" He just laughed at me and didn't answer..only laughing at me. lol We were technically stealing of course if you didn't picked up on that....but it was the teams Pop so I guess as the coach for over 20 years at that point...one could give that to him as a fringe benefits on occasion.(factiously said of course:)
I probably already told the story but just the condensed version. When I went to state comp while still in High School....a bus with 3 other schools combined was used to transfer all the qualifiers from the 3 schools together to save the transportation cost. Most of these guys and girls I knew already because they were either on my private team...or I had competed against them for years before High School. On the way home (it was night time and dark)....one of the guys I knew had tracked down an older friend from the University where the state meet was held and had him buy him a bottle of booze and snuck it on the bus to drink as a celebration since the season was officially over and we were done for the year (High School competition). We all sat in back together as a group (the friends who knew each other) and were passing the bottle around and getting drunk pretty fast. We stopped for gas and we all piled out and went straight to the men rest room to finish it off. I was taking a pee in the stall and was telling them "hey...leave some for me!!!" when it got really quiet. I cam out of the stall to see the Chaperone was standing there looking at me and giving me the stink eye. He was a teacher from another school but I knew who he was and just slipped on by him without saying another word. BUSTED!!
So....every guy who got caught from the other school...had their Letters stripped from them and they were suspended from sports for the rest of the year.
The next weekend at a private meet after that....my coach walks up to me and says "hey....where did you guys get the booze?" I told him the story...and he went..."mmm....I was just curious?" "And walked away. Nothing more was ever said and nothing happened to me at all and it was never brought to the full attention to my school.
Another time (repeat story I think here)...I had put honey on the toilet seats as a prank during a swim meet.( I was known for this kind of thing. And or course yes....passive aggressive ODD but not generally speaking ...not malicious or destructive. Creative prankster? OMG!!! ) So my coach comes to our entire team (who had 13 boys all age 13-14...the largest contingency in that age group of any team) and says :"WHO... (not DID any of you).....put honey on the toilet seats?...(momentary pause of silence) and I raise my hand.
He takes me back to pool since we were housed in a cafeteria between races (all the teams together)...and introduces me to the meanest coach known from the best team in the league and introduces me to him officially ( I knew who he was...everyone was terrified of his reputation but he was good friends with my coach)...who proceeds to take me in the pump room and tells me if he catches me doing that again...he make me lick the honey off the toilet seat...and then his ass after that and then turns the light off in the pump room and leaves me standing in the dark with the door closed behind him petrified to open the door and leave the room. I had to open the door eventually.. so I cracked it open to take a peek to see my coaching rolling in laughter with the other coach joining him. When they saw me come out....my coach couldn't stop laughing with other coach laughing with him until he saw me and gave me the stink eye again. Which just busted my coach up even more and then he joined him with me slinky off in humiliation but with a smile on my face. Touche'!!! I just got "punked" right back. lol
My coach may have been just like Kurt Russel's portrayal when it was down to business....but he had a big heart..a sense of humor...was both benevolent and balanced in his attitudes...under stood motivations and balanced reward and punishment...showed loyalty and dignity and above all else....was just a really great guy with a secret "kid at heart" in his ability to still be that way when the time is called for.
If you see the differnec between him and my father...and the sheer amount of time I spent with him on a weekly basis.....he was the one who rubbed off on me....not my father and he was more of that role model than my father ever was. If I have anyone to thank for having these same qualities now....even this many years later....I got it from him...not my father.
I have to admit however....the way I am with having only two modes to be in....."ON"...or ..."OFF" when it comes to having no middle or mid-range when I get angry....it comes from this experience and done in the same way. This is where it comes from. If you understand it from that perspective or were use to this kind of things as I was.....you interpret it this way. If you don't read it as trying to make a point or say something and can only see it as abuse....you miss the point entirely....to make a point and teach you a lesson.( in a logical way connecting it directly to the point being made not just spewing emotion indirectly all over the place with no point what so ever?
I do understand why this doesn't work with my wife of course....but I also understand where it comes from and why I do it ( or have done it ) with my wife by default without realizing what I'm doing. That is....to make a point....not just to punish with anger.
My wife is not at all into sports and completely doesn't get this kind of interchange and what it's actually being said...or any message being sent to her if I've done this kind of thing with her. She can only relate any stern aggression or get a wiff of this kind of thing.... with the abusive "drunks"...that her mother married in her life. She can only see these things in one way and relates to this from only one experience and it only triggers the only thing she knew of men who appeared angry and raised voices to: Violence, alcoholism and abuse.
Coming from the other direction....I would "get it"...and get the point immediately if a point was actually being made?
This is where I get called asshole sometimes....but it always done for the same reason and that reason is very clear to me. I realize how this is the wrong approach to use in context...but I also realize why I do it sometimes and where it comes from. Her extreme sensitivity to anything "angry" or even looks "angry" only means one thing to her.
With me....it comes from a good place...with a good example and model to use....but knowing (and now realizing) it's the wrong context...the wrong relationship..and the wrong way to do it.
But this IS how I do it sometimes...and where I learned it. I'm still just as benevolent....show dignity and respect...doing it for a reason and to make a point...with all the other good qualities too. It's just how I learned it and using my own coach (mentor, father figure and friend as guide)
My wife also doesn't get being "punked"...and has no sense of humor there either. Too bad...she's missing one of my best ways to have fun with another person if done in "fun"... but only if they enjoy it and are in on the joke themselves. I have no need to do it any more and don't do it with my wife at all....but if someone wanted to play with me that way and enjoyed it....I'm there....big time. Done...more "maturely"...as my coach did with me and having that "drink" together in private.
Swimming saved my life...in more ways than one:)
J
Subject-change
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J, you wrote
"I have to admit however....the way I am with having only two modes to be in....." ON"...or ..."OFF" when it comes to having no middle or mid-range when I get angry....it comes from this experience and don't one in the same way. This is where it comes from. If you understand it from that perspective or were use to this kind of things as I was.....you interpret it this way. If you don't read it as trying to make a point or say something and can only see it as abuse....you miss the point entirely....to make a point and teach you a lesson.( in a logical way connecting it directly to the point being made not just spewing emotion indirectly all over the place with no point what so ever?
I do understand why this doesn't work with my wife of course....but I also understand where it comes from and why I do it ( or have done it ) with my wife by default without realizing what I'm doing. That is....to make a point....not just to punish with anger."
J, I can't place where I read it. Maybe in John Gottman's book on marriage communication. The writer remarked that if a couple is talking about a subject, let's say, movies; and one or both add in strong feelings or drag in an old or unresolved relation issue then the subject of the communication has changed to, in your example, anger.
I think I remember that whoever wrote this called it moving to a meta-level, meaning that now the conversation was definitely not about movies, it was about the way the relation was being conducted. When that happened, the first topic was replaced by whatever, disagreement, accusation, anger about the relation, the writer said it was useless to try to discuss whatever needed to be discussed about movies, until the meta-issues were dealt with. Meta-conversations are about the relationship itself, or about things like your identity and your wife's. Once there's a gearshift from the topic into who knows, fear, anger, memory of past problems, something relational, this writer said that the meta-level HAD to be dealt with in a way that was satisfactory to both at the moment, before the couple could drop back to the lower level issue, something about movies.
If you are deploying your ADHD emotional lability, as you say you are (it's ON or OFF), to make a point about some subject, your switched on strong emotion and whatever that elicits in your wife, is the real subject. Forget the point. You've changed the subject. In this situation, there are no lessons being taught and it's no longer time to make intellectual points or to give advice.
if you're doing what you say youre doing with your emotional lability, using it as a tool to make a point to your wife, you, not she, are shifting the subject to you and your volatility.
That gives her limited options: to do some kind of combat with you or defensiveness if you've moved it from the subject because you've switched on your high emotion and trained it on her like a tool, and the subject now isn't whatever you were talking to her about, but you; or remove herself from it.
I sign on to Jenna's post. I could have written her last lines...but as always she said it clearly and better than I could.
Retrospect and Change....NON
Submitted by kellyj on
This was really excellent to step back from and look at NON. So many times I've said that my wife ( I feel )..is baiting me into an argument or baiting me into confrontation. At first when she first completely transitioned and moved in with me completely even though we had both lived at times in each others homes before hand....we were really butting up against each other. These subjects that were not there before she moved in didn't exist.
Looking back to what you mentioned about having these early discussions with my wife about ADHD? My wife also made comments and pointed things out to me about herself and her habits that were not something that I missed at all. What I could not get from only hearing her tell me these things (much in the same as what I was saying myself about telling her ahead of time about my ADHD symptoms ) is just how what she was saying actually manifested itself into physical form? Yes...this was the insight I was looking for to compare to in myself as well. On my part that is.
Much of what I've written here on the forum is out of context in time and is not necessarily what is currently happening...but in retrospect....seeing my failures and revisiting things to re-examine them. As these things have unfolded in linear progression over time...it really is easy to become too much inside of it to gain that perspective back again without something to remind you of the narrowness of your own perspective.
This is where I can honestly and straight up tell you without hesitation or doubt of myself....that I did have a very good perspective and handle on what was happening ( due to my own self awareness and my past experiences ) and can say that I can now see what has happened and has remained almost a constant for so long that I've needed one more step back to see the picture clearly. It happened so fast and all at once...that once it started it has been until only recently that I have seen any day light in order to get enough space to step back from? If that makes sense? Taking another huge step back here and what you said here in terms of meta-conversations
"....the writer said it was useless to try to discuss whatever needed to be discussed about movies, until the meta-issues were dealt with. Meta-conversations are about the relationship itself, or about things like your identity and your wife's. Once there's a gearshift from the topic into who knows, fear, anger, memory of past problems, something relational, this writer said that the meta-level HAD to be dealt with in a way that was satisfactory to both at the moment, before the couple could drop back to the lower level issue, something about movies.
If you are deploying your ADHD emotional lability, as you say you are (it's ON or OFF), to make a point about some subject, your switched on strong emotion and whatever that elicits in your wife, is the real subject. Forget the point. You've changed the subject. In this situation, there are no lessons being taught and it's no longer time to make intellectual points or to give advice."
In terms of my wife....that gear shift happened almost literally over night. As it was as I see this more clearly...she has in her own way....never been able to leave this topic since she first moved in and has not let up or let go of it ever. She has been trying to keep the topic alive and can't move from it as hard as I have been resisting her in not keeping it going. In respect to myself and what I haven't done or perpetuated myself on my behalf....was keeping the meta-conversation alive or engaging in it on my own. In essence....wanting to give it a rest and move away from it (not denial, avoidance or not wanting to discuss things) but not wanting the intensity and the pressure of having to keep revisiting it constantly which I feel that my wife...on her behalf....is simply not realizing exactly what she is doing or how she is doing this. In this much....there is definitely...NO ONE TO BLAME....AND NO ONE AT FAULT!!! (underline if I could to emphasize!! LOL )
If I had to point out a failure (not fault) on my part in simply not knowing this....was trying to engage her in the first place since this is exactly what has happened and this topic cannot return to a lower level conversation until that becomes resolved.
What is "this topic?". This topic is what I've said in many ways but will go back to what I originally stated without any diagnosis involved......anxiety and OCD like behaviors I observe in my wife. The immediacy and urgency and impatience in what I observed (how quickly the conversation shifted gears almost over night ) to this constant state of meta-conversation with the overtures being almost exclusively on my wife's part due to "her anxiety or the feelings of stress" she herself has...;..which she has admitted too ( but not in these words ) but only now that I can step back with that kind of hind sight I've gained from learning everything up to this point in time and gaining that kind of insight first which I simply couldn't have done this before...unless I did what I did. If that makes sense? Again.....NO ONE IS AT FAULT OR TO BLAME HERE.
What did I say....I don't think my wife knows what her feelings are? How she has attempted to communicate what she cannot actually see in herself (giving her credit that maybe she's beginning to see but slowly in stages ) is she simply has a problem with this. But now....her problem becomes my problem if she cannot let it go....and letting it go for her.....starts with not letting go of the meta-conversation which happened almost instantly or within only a very short period of time.
On her behalf ....and within my failure to see this so clearly....she's actually been baiting me into meta-conversations....we've had a million times already and have no value or sense in going over it one more time. No value for her or I...only....I have become increasingly intolerant and irritable about saying the same thing over and over repeatedly and not going anywhere.
What she has really been doing as I now step back....is disguising nagging and trying to present it in a more surreptitious package and delivering it in disguised as "wanting to talk" or "having a conversation". As you may have seen me dissect this and analyze over time....what I think I've really been doing is dissecting the anatomy of OCD in my wife. OCD is relentless and never changing behavior designed to relieve the sufferer (temporarily only) from stress and anxiety but by putting a band aid on it but never fixing the source of the problem. In it's addictive form....it is a self fulfilling prophecy of it's own.
What my T said about "stubbornness" as persistence going bad? "Nagging" gone bad...is actually called "badgering". When the intensity goes up and becomes badgering....it's just taken a step up in the level of intensity.
These surreptitious ( and overt both ) means to keep it going....and these "packages" in which she delivers them in...contains everything I've said it contains and I feel it everyday. As well as I've pointed out repeatedly...are a very dishonest way of communication. And as I have more recently pointed out....irrational behavior is dishonesty in disguise as well. The truth of these lies (the ones to herself ) as that she has a problem that she cannot see or admit too which appears outwardly to me as OCD. This is what I can see...and have seen consistently from the beginning as I have said in many ways.
This has been the curious and somewhat disquieting difference in what mostly...I haven't read in the forum within the stories that are most common here. What is most common is...that these problems develop over a long period of time much more slowly to the point of most who become this way....find it hard and a long road back out of it again. Call this co-dependent if you will...but none the less....I understand this part and have felt the pull and pressure constantly on my wife's part due to this problem she has.
There are two problems here. Mine is ADHD. Her's is OCD (what ever the source). We are dealing with a dual or double diagnosis and my own feelings or intuition have brought me to this a long time ago. I'm not going to buy into the diagnosis part since I'm no except.....but as it appears and how it behaves is exactly what I see and feel from it. I understand OCD. It's is a by product or was very early on....in my first real awareness of my ADHD symptoms ( around age 27 ) as it first started creating problems for me. Not the OCD as much...as the anxiety I had when I first started recognizing my ADHD symptoms long before I knew what ADHD was or knew anything more.
I also was able to correct that part pretty quickly and overcome this on my own as I've said. At least this part is telling to me since it wasn't really the problem in itself as much as the source is concerned (ADHD). It was however....a manifestation of the source and the symptoms that were always there but just then....starting to pose a problem that I could not control or manage any more which brought rise to my own OCD behavior.
Stepping back here and saying this another way in light of what you are saying with meta-conversations? What I see now as one form of her own OCD behavior...has taken the form a relentless, stubborn badgering in the sense of nagging gone bad...and disguising it in these "packages" to hide the fact that if she cannot nag or badger...she cannot get that temporary relief she is looking for. I clearly see this is what she is doing now...and can also clearly see the forms in which they come in. Whether the source of what she's dealing with is anything else....the mechanics are what I recognize and I think I can safely apply here without any diagnosis and not knowing anything else?
It's interesting to see this now so clearly. I have been accused of "badgering" her at times....but I have also recognized a lot of these accusations themselves as projections on her part. Without discounting them completely (and listening to the lies ) I can see why she says these things at times and can also see the ..symptom , response, response...cause and effect as well.
Jeese Louse!! I've got to tell you....one disorder per family is enough for crying out loud!! LOL This is what I been trying to say for so long without having any way to support my claims when the label I have immediately eliminates any other possibilities when you first say you have ADHD yourself. Can you imagine how frustrating and how angry the boy who cried wolf becomes when the wolf is actually real in this case? My cries for help are not in my imagination or anything that I've said here. I've made it point to verfy and validate most of what I've written here and done my best to be objective and not work only from assumption myself which I really understand is difficult for everyone to do here on this forum without more information to work from. I have tried to the best of my ability....to extend that grace to everyone else as well even in my own times of distress.
But I really have done enough research and learning to have a good solid understanding on these things now and feel pretty confident in what I'm saying here. Without having an intense need to rescue or please my wife....what this really boils down to is just trying to be considerate and understanding and allowing a lot of what most people do in the beginning of any relationship. Being accepting and allowing and extending a lot of grace at first on my part. That is....until someone else is using undo force or power to take advantage of that offering....but now saying.....without blame or fault on my wife's part.....just simply being ignorant or in denial of what she's doing and knowing exactly how she's doing this. Grabbing power and using it to protect her OCD (as I'm seeing this) was necessary for her to do. This was that instant thing that seems to happen over night that took me completely by surprise. She did one up me in that respect...and now I've been trying to return that power shift back to normal with and fighting her on this ever since.
This is not saying that Jenna or you are not right in what you just said. What you were most correct in saying...goes back to not engaging in the first place. My failure ( only ) not being able to see this from the beginning...is where I have done exactly what you've said and Jenna pointed out.
Yes....I haven't had any need to engage in meta-conversations or do any of these things I've done on my part...but my wife in respect to this...will not let that go.........that is until just recently. I have been inside it and trying to work it that way and this only manifests everything that I have done in my failure to do what is by design...and self defeating thing to do.
As you said here..."the writer said it was useless to try to discuss whatever needed to be discussed about movies, until the meta-issues were dealt with."
Not my fault...but my failure in seeing this sooner....is trying to engage in anything that is not dealing with the meta-issue and trying to fight against it or even engage. No matter what I do...I will never win this fight. Trying...only brings out my own issues with emotional lability and the "ON" ..."OFF" anger that simply comes from trying to fight or engage...."WITN-IN IT".
What you were saying before...becomes even more clear to me now. I've been on her dojo mat and not realizing her dojo matt (in a spacial sense)...extends to the entire living space we're existing in. My references to my wife being a "territorial predator" or "grabbing Land" I can liken now to laying her dozo matt out and staking claim to it which encompasses our entire living space or where ever she is at the moment.
Actually the latter is closer to being more accurate. As I said earlier....the circumference of her boundaries extends outwardly into a pretty big radius. So big....it's not just me who runs into these fight with her and I am not alone by any means here. Also what I've said repeatedly in different ways. She takes it with her...and this is the moving target as I referred to it as before.
Taking a "no blame"..."no fault"..approach here. I can step back and see this and say a few things.
I had areas of my ADHD that definitely needed some work despite the progress and success I've had already. Only I know my progress and success here based on my past performance. Having recognized this immediately when we first came at odds with this....I took it upon myself to find out what I needed to work on and set out to do so from the outset without passing the buck on to my wife. I know I did this much and I can give myself that much credit. My anger and my emotional liability was the first one on the list...because it was the first one on my wife's list as well. In my effort to do my part....I took this on without hesitation which brought me here to do this very thing. There is no arguing this and no need to on my part....I know what I did...and I know what I've been doing.
The sound bites that I remember my wife telling me a long time ago when she told me of the stories of her ex husband and the things he said to her. As she saw it....these were somewhat unfounded and unreasonable and was taking her own position as she said them to me. And she also told me of their experience going to a councelor and a method he tried to emply with the two of them to get some resolution at the time.
The method? ( I had never heard of and thought it sounded odd...but what do I know? right? ) They had a feather he gave them....and when one person has the feather....they have the floor and it is their turn to talk.
If you see this as I do (now)......I understand clearly....why he did that and why her ex-husband said what he said. If I didn't at the time....I clearly do now.
I had to eliminate all the possibilities on my end first..... to do my part to make sure I was doing everything I can and not pass the buck. Taking ownership and responsibility and educating myself on the treatment options and possibilities that I might have overlooked.
But as I have come to understand in doing this....I have also come to understand my own limitations but you have to do this first before you know anything else. The pressure on my wife's part that pushed me to these limits....actually was a good thing for me to do and I don't regret doing that part at all. That is....up to the point of diminishing returns.
If I apply what her ex-husband found out himself....there is just no pleasing something...there is no ever pleasing or satisfying. OCD is not something that you can please or satiate. It is an endless black hole where nothing is ever good enough. Coming to the end of line for myself and what is possible....needed to happen first before I could see this. The effort and time I've put into this.....has only been a positive thing up to getting to the end of the line in my own abilities. It has helped tremendously in doing this and as I've also said before....none the effort put in has gone to waste on my behalf.
So coming full circle here and saying this differently only for myself and our situation here which is like anyone else....unique in it's own way and cannot be applied to anyone else.
I needed to do something...to interrupt this dynamic or it was going to be the death of me and end our relationship. I beleive in my wife and the things she's said to me and she shows me her character in the things she says and does. But OCD has no character or is not who she is. It is something she has....in the same way I have ADHD. If I have not said that before in fewer words....this is how I see my wife no matter how many negatives things I've said about her in the past. This was not my fault that I could not know this exactly before....and without being an expert....a mental health professional...and just a guy with ADHD himself...I think I've done a pretty good job at holdong things together and giving my wife a great deal of grace even within what I've said before.
If I now apply OCD in place of "MY WIFE"....to every single negative things I've ever said about her on this forum.....I can honestly say that this is how to apply it...which means it's not my wife and who she is that I see as the problem she has. Everything I hate or don't like about my wife...is not my wife....but her OCD.
If you apply this directly as I just said.....that will chance the context and shift the blame to the real culprit and take my wife out of the picture for now.
"WE"...have a dual diagnosis in our relationship...and this is a "WE" problem....not my wife. Speaking in those terms. Not engaging in the meta-conversations is not denying the problem....it's not engaging in the problem...and not engaging in what I know I will bring into it if I try and engage in it at all. For the time being.....not giving any weight or credit to my wife's attempt to engage and trying to disguise ......badgering in a package called....."It would be good....." "can we talk"...."I'd like to talk" or any other means she attempts to send them as....is only buying into and taking on her blame and shame for her own OCD which is what I'm seeing this as now.
No one is at fault here and no one is to blame for this. I have the capacity to extend the same grace with my wife...that I can give and want for myself knowing how difficult this is having ADHD and some OCD in my past myself. Denial of course is still to blame for now....but I see some changes that tells me to wait.
The thing that I really needed most of all...was my ability to say this in exactly this way which means I "see it" for what it is....which is what I've been saying here all along to everyone else.
I think what I just outlined without trying to do so....might be good advise actually....for anyone else to do in order to get to the same place I have done for myself. This is my journey...and this is where I am right now.
Thanks for the help and support in this....I couldn't have done it would out ALL of you. I can't know the future....but I can know the direction I need to go and right now.....I'm going in the right direction I think?
J
Punking
Submitted by jennalemone on
What a great gift your coach was for you...and you responded to him in kind. Just what kids need is an adult to aspire to be like. And then to have that relationship last! A gift!
By the way, most women do not like the punking or the "fake anger for fun". Like your wife, I have no patience or appreciation for those things either. I don't think I actually realized that some people used fake anger for connection/fun. Now that you write about it, I think H tries to do that too. I HATE that. It seems sort of passive aggressive to act angry and then make light of it in fun. Maybe guys are expected to shake off a bully. But most women wouldn't know what to do with that except "feel bad" or feel angry back. Angry words are angry words...nothing more....certainly never to be used to connect. I am with your wife on this one.
You're Right...Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
And no...I have never "Punked" my wife...not even once. If you've ever watched the show Jack Ass....the entire show is "Punking" and doing this to each other. This is a very juvenile male testosterone thing that I think most women will ever understand. And yes....it is very passive aggressive. When I say....I'm in big time....it would only be in terms of doing this with a guy or guys and only for fun maybe once...in context to a special time or gathering when you are returning to your "youth"...but totally aware of doing it just as a one time thing. Normally....I hate practical jokes and no...using fake anger to fake someone out is not something I ever do with my wife. In referencing a broad sense of humor....I can't see the humor in it but I'm not going to do it again now in my life? NOT!! lol
But I think what you are seeing with your H....might be what you are seeing too. I know a lot of grown men...who have not grown out of this...and mostly....it's just annoying unless it with an old friend and doing it in a different way to get a rise out of the situation. I can recall a couple times in a group of old friends..and mainly...their the same ones from my past...so everyone IS in on the joke.
And just so you know....it may feel like bullying to you if your not in on the joke. He's not getting that your not...or not understanding how this is not funny to most women. I can't imagine a lot of women....thinking the show Jack Ass is all that funny? I've watched it a few times and it gets old really fast....but there's still my own remembering myself back then...and thinking...."that was a good one. he he" Only if I had been at that age...and was doing the same thing. Artist appreciation from afar? lol
What it is...is trying to get a rise out of you. That's the point. If he isn't getting that you don't think it's funny...and just doing it because he thinks it is....that a different thing entirely if he keeps doing it just to get that rise out of you and still thinks it's funny. That's pretty juvenile and I wouldn't like it either at this time for sure.
However.....if I sat on a toilet....with honey on it.....I might do the same thing the coaches did to me just to teach me a lesson and that would be funny for sure. In the same way if I were there getting up from the pot all sticky....I'd be inclined to do the same thing as I said with Jack Ass and go..."that was creative...I'll have to give them that much. And still see the juvenile humor..and see it for what it is.
You might look at this way too Jenna...instead of seeing it as bullying. I'm not going to advise you to do this at ALL....but if you are creative...and can get into that mind set....if you did what my coach did with me in a way to put it back on him just once (Punk Him) to make a point....he may see the humor....the point...and get a taste of his own medicine and speaking in the language he understands done in humor...and with that in mind?
That might be just asking for it....but speaking that language myself....the message might get across once he's on the other side of it....just once. I could help you with that....but I'm not going to. Just say'in. LOL
J
PS I get you might think I was saying this is how I get angry with my wife in referecing the "Punking." That's not it all all. When I get angry with her....I'm making a point. Not "reacting" and out of control....and making no sense what so ever. The point about Punking in reference to you..is speaking the language...that the person understand to get you point across. More in reference to what I've attempted to do with my wife with limited success. That's why I'm not advising you to do anything but just be yourself. Tit fo tat.....never really works and I don't advise it even though it's tempting sometimes:)
Keep in mind....I was 13 years old at the time when I did that. My even referencing this again was illustrate my coaches ability to reach me....and not get angry and punish me....but in referencing his ability to teach me a lesson I never forgot. If he had reacted to me with anger...and punished me like many adults would have done....I would I forgot about that lesson....and would have probably done it even more in revenge to the punishment. Knowing the language...and teaching lessons in way a person can "feel" it...rather than cognitively explain it and thinking they will learn anything...,is a poor way to teach anyone anything IMHO. Maybe this is an ADHD thing however. Needing to "feel" the lesson....not just have it explained? Hands on learning? I think there is something to be said here?