"Two possibilities exist. Either we are alone in the universe or we are not, both are equally terrifying." Arthur C. Clarke
https://youtu.be/EMLPJqeW78Q Link:The Smallest to the Biggest thing in the Universe! (HD) how Big is the Universe
Last night, my wife sits down and tells me she is doing her homework that our T assigned her after her recent visit alone with him a few days ago. I've noticed a difference in my wife that has had an immediate positive effect on me.... but I didn't want to jump all over her the minute she walked in the door and told her.." I've love to here about what he said but for now, all I want to know is did you have a good talk with him. I don't want to you to feel like we have to discuss this all right now but I am interested."(quote..unquote)
When my wife said this, I felt it would be a good time to ask her what that assignment was and hear what he had to say. Her response to me was " You didn't want to hear about it the other day when you asked me." In a definitive statement about the exact highlighted sentence that I really did say. (quote...unquote) No room for error or interpretation what so ever. "No you didn't" That's what I heard. (errrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! lol)
This is Parr for the course for us in how she communicates with me.... in which I immediately replyed " I didn't say that but I'm not going to argue with you about it." Boom. Dome deal. I refuse to argue but she's not putting words into my mouth either. I call her on this every single time and never let her get away with it. She hates that!! lol But I care if she hates it or not. I didn't say that and she's not going to tell ME what I said. (Fuck you) This is honestly how I feel about that, take it or leave it. I don't say the Fuck You part to her....but it is what I feel like saying every time she does that. It's sooooooooo negative!!!!
For me, as it was directed.... directly at what I said to her which I remember exactly what I said. It's Catty. It's snippy. It's demeaning. It's insulting. It's dismissive. It's offensive. I't boorish. It's fatalistic. It's sarcastic. It's childish. And it's just plain rude. She just took a big shit...right on top of my interest in her and my interest in what my T had to say all in one statement. No matter what was up her butt in the moment....and no matter what I might have done in the past to warrant such a statement. Right then...in that moment in the present time....I hadn't done anything but show interest in her and nothing else. But I know better than to argue with the mind of a child because that's that half of brain that is saying those things. Not the adult half...but the child who is responding to (my personal judgment)...a piece of shit mother who was more interested in going to the bar because she was an alcoholic...which means that alcohol is WAY more important than her own children.
And then to find her next co-dependent Alcoholic bar fly husband to join her at the bar and pull up a stool....to hear her go on about how horrible her life has been and how everyone is always dumping on me and making my life soooo hard. How "I've always gotten the short end of the stick." How "all my past Husbands were abusive, womanizing, woman haters and beat her and cheated on her and how she has to drink to get over the damage they've caused her." Which I can just picture the guy sitting next to her either going: " Jesus...sorry I asked." Or....."That sounds awful Honey. You poor dear...here, let me buy you another drink." (and maybe come home you later and get laid heh, heh, heh ) ( sucker! )
Frankly.....I wouldn't F*&%K her, with someone else's "dick" buddy...even your's. She's a walking night mare....no sex is worth that!!! OMG!!
But did he listen? No...the two of them came home to my wife and little brother. In which in her sparkling example of mothering and setting an example.. dumped all over the two of them for not doing what ever it was that they didn't do which was nothing since she wasn't there to tell them (their little kids right?) So in a few minutes of her precious time she had to give...she looks around and see's everything they didn't do and if she couldn't find something...she make it up so there was always something she could complain about and make it someone else fault. All done...with that same venom and negativity and crying in her beer victim mentality attitude to go along with it.
Afterwards.... as she says to the guy she just brought home as they are walking toward the bedroom.."Kids....they're such a pain! C'mon baby...let's go where we can be left alone. " In plain ear shot of her children of course. She could care less who heard her or how that affected her children. She had every right to say that since....everyone's always out to get poor old me and I have a right to let everyone know that!!! I've been given the short end of the stick I'm telling you!!!" Right.
So when I hear this piece of shit talking through my wife and trying to get me to buy into that sob story. I'm not buying it for a second....but the last thing I'm going to do is argue with her about that as she's sitting there on that bar stool. I also don't need to be compassionate or empathetic to it since......I'm the one who has to live with her..... living inside my wife's head pulling those strings....and she was never welcome in my house in the first place. Not in your lifetime sister!
And my response to my wife...is the same as it would have been for her mother...."Jesus...sorry I asked."....with the addition since I live with my wife and can't walk out of the bar to get away from this abusive childish mother who's still in there pulling on my wife's strings. "Don't put words into my mouth, I didn't say that." And then I walk away or ignore her or both since....I'm not going there with her.
It doesn't take away from the dumped on feeling when I was actually showing interest in my wife and her therapy session....but at least...she will have some consequence to pay each time she does that with me. And the conversation is over until she can learn to do this better. "If you're going to play.... you gotta pay the man."
But low and behold....last night....something happened!! lol
Right after I said what I said....my wife stopped and in a moment, came to me and said.."that was negative....you didn't say that. You said you wanted to hear what I had to say but not just right then. I remember"
In which I added.."For you remember....I was thinking about you and only saying that in case you didn't want to talk about it right then. Of course I'm interested...I've been anxious to hear about it...but I was just giving you some time and space and didn't want to jump all over you the second you walked in the door."
And then my wife told me what her assignment was given to her by my T. "No matter what you say....make sure it's not negative." That's it. That's her home work assignment. He didn't give her any more instructions than that but look at what came out of my wife from just doing that simple thing.
It's like a miracle I'm telling you!!! lol
My T is a genius. What more can I say?
This was what was different about my wife. If she cannot say what's negative....she cannot speak from that place in her.
I also learned something else from our conversation that is really interesting and most telling to me especially.
She told me when she was in his office. She told him straight up.."this going inward thing that you talk about with all that psychological abstract stuff just doesn't work with me. I'm a black and white thinker and I need straight forward tools to use that I can follow along with with and just do them. I need you to give me a simple assignment like this and then just do it that way instead."
And she said this....... instead of what he had originally told her to do as her assignment. Which was " to stop all those negative thoughts and thinking."
This is where she and I are so much different. On the briggs meyer personality test scale. I'm an INFP...Intuitve...Feeling...Perciever. Also know as a Healer. Which accounts for only 4% of the population. Yet...I'n an extrovert as well. This is an odd thing to me? The extrovert....really doesn't fit and I'm wondering know if that is not an accurate description of who I really am? I think in all honesty....I learned to become an extrovert as a means to survive. But in my true "Nature" not "Nuture"....I am an introvert as this personality test shows. Can you be both and still have this personality and be true to who you are? I'm still thinking on that one? Thinking the answer is yes...since both nurture and nature are both comprised as being who you are today.
This is why I'm an odd one. What you see on the outside....is not necessarily what you see on the inside and that is also part of what being and INFP is. Reserved....as it says. But yet...not reserved.
But that Chameleon...who can easily be the extrovert in a heart beat which is also who I am....needs to find a back seat to my true inner self at times....when faced with that situation where I need to access my feelings and use the intuition I've got. But that part that I learned to be...is also part of who I am. I don't need to change that for all good reasons. The only part I think I need to change in all of this....is the ability to understand those who are not like me better. This is not a skill that I have had a chance to developed all things considered. This is the repressed part of me that still needs to find it's way to the surface more but part of what stands in my way is the way I communicate which is all extrovert and very little introvert. It's just a habit...as my T has told me repeatedly. The problem with that habit in respect to my wife....is she cannot see anything outside of what she see's. She is not like me in that respect but I give her a huge benefit of the doubt since I'm not like the majority of people out there including those with ADHD. I'm the odd one as my mother even said to me. The most important part in this however....is it doesn't feel odd to me to be this way. This is who I am and I know that part for sure. I'm not a pleaser, a rescuer, or knight in shining armor. And I'm not your stereotypical guy off the street by any means. What I am is who I am. And that part includes being an INFP and an extrovert with a potty mouth all at the same time. The potty mouth I can turn on and off....but it is how I express myself and make a distinction with intention...between saying something one way....or saying it another way....and wanting the impact. I want the impact that those words carry with them...or I wouldn't use them in the first place. That is not from habit. I am highly aware of the words I use and the reasons why I use them. Especially when I'm angry or expressing a strong opinion or feeling. Words are just words....words cannot hurt you unless you allow them too. Having banned "words" or "censored words" because they have some sexual or religious connotation to them.....seems absolutely ridiculous to me? What are we...children? Stick and stones man...WTF? lol
It took me forever to learn what "Bloody" this or "Bloody" that was....used commonly in Britain. Not until I heard it used in a sentence....."bloody sacrament"...did I understand the meaning. Okay...even then. What's big deal with saying that the "sacrament" is "bloody". Isn't that what the sacrament is after all....supposedly......the symbolic blood of Christ? When in reality...it's really Mogen David extra heavy Malaga wine or something awful along that order? Who are you trying to fool here? Ah...but it's symbolic...that's the point? So does that mean if I drink Mogan David extra heavy Malaga wine at home it's some kind of sacrilege since I'm drinking Christ's blood in vane? Give me a break!! That's utterly absurd! I don't want to live symbolically....I want to live for real and be a real person....not a symbolic representation or extension of one? And for that matter.....I want a real marriage....not a symbolic representation or extension of one there either?
"In this latter sense, human intimacy is a sacrament, a very special kind of symbol. For our purpose here today, a sacrament could be any one of a number of gestures or acts or ordinances that unite us with God and his limitless powers. We are imperfect and mortal; he is perfect and immortal. But from time to time--indeed, as often as is possible and appropriate--we find ways and go to places and create circumstances where we can unite symbolically with him, and in so doing gain access to his power. Those special moments of union with God are sacramental moments--such as kneeling at a marriage altar, or blessing a newborn baby, or partaking of the emblems of the Lord's supper. This latter ordinance is the one we in the Church have come to associate most traditionally with the word sacrament, though it is technically only one of many such moments when we formally take the hand of God and feel his divine power." Jeffrey R. Holland was president of Brigham Young University when this devotional address was delivered on 12 January 1988 in the Marriott Center.
Really? You could have fooled me? I felt God the day I had my experience on LSD and he didn't just take my hand in one of those symbolic moments.... he filled me to overflow inside and has never left ever since. It's not symbolic....I feel it every day. That was the real deal from my perspective and I didn't need to go to Church and follow any book to get there. This is extremely saddening to me. To think...we only can have moments of symbolic feelings of God and the universe...and only when we follow these rules to get so very little out of life. I feel sorry for old Jeffrey...but who am I to judge.
Actually....I don't judge. As an INFP....I just feel sorry for what he's missing out of life. Living...symbolically...with emblems we wear to show how we know God and the universe..... as he said it "Those special moments of union with God are sacramental moments--such as kneeling at a marriage altar, or blessing a newborn baby, or partaking of the emblems of the Lord's supper. This latter ordinance is the one we in the Church have come to associate most traditionally with the word sacrament, though it is technically only one of many such moments when we formally take the hand of God and feel his divine power." I'd have to ask Jeffrey....what about the rest of the time? What about everyday when your at home with your spouse? Sounds like lip service to me all things considered? I might advise Jeffrey...instead of LDS....maybe you should consider some LSD and see what you think? I'm thinking...he might not respond well to that?
And here in lies MY personal problem. If I'm kind of homogenous in some regards....it makes it difficult to always know where everyone else's boundary lines are since....my boundaries are pretty big and wide and extend in a pretty big circle. Since I don't believe what Jeffrey believes....I have to be the one to figure out where all those lines are to make sure I'm not stepping on any. But at the same time while playing hop scotch and dancing all over the place looking for these invisible lines everywhere....unless I know a person well enough to establish that....I'm looking for lines more than I am being who I am and pretending to be what I'm not in service of all those lines and fences that if I had it my way.....would all be pulled down and erased with no lines at all?
But as I have come to fully understand now. I'm the odd man out. Not everyone else. It is my responsibility to nearly everyone else ( me being the 1% or 2% out of 100%) to figure this out so I don't offend anyone and still be true to who I am at the same time. I can tell you without question.....this is a burden and a task that is not that easy to do. It's a lot to ask of an INFP extrovert...I'm telling you! lol
And what I really think here....is that extrovert part is really the hyperactive ADHD part in me that drives me to extroversion. And using my what I learned from my T....is the part that I need to change my relationship with. It's also part of me too. The ADHD will always be there until the day I die. It is part of who I am as well. Adderall...is not going to do anything about that part of my personality which I'm thankful for. I don't want to be a different person. Just a person that is a little more palatable for the main stream of society. Fighting city hall has already been proven to be a foolish fight to make on my part.
I went on a different sight for a while with only people with ADHD. When I was there....there was a poll be taken which asked if there were any INFP /extroverts out there since it seems like a very weird mix even for those with ADHD. Sure enough...at that time. I was the only one who said yes. Even within the ADHD community....I'm still the odd man out! lol I'm a weirdo....what can I say?
But I can move from one to the other seamlessly and flawlessly and not be ambivalent about myself and who I am. I am both not just one or the other. This does make me somewhat of a Chamleon by predisposition I think since it's never been not easy for me to do this or something I've had to try very hard to do.....even as a kid. I can fit myself easily in to many situations....but within each...there are those, who sense that I am an interloper into their sacred territory and not just in a religious sense either..... since I don't fit the symbolic profile they're looking for and appear like I don't belong there.
I'm a jock...and I'm an Artist. Those two worlds don't mix at all. Very different personalities and very, very different ideologies. And yet... I mix easily between those two worlds with those few exceptions in each world that make my life difficult.
I have business experience and a business education....and I'm an Artist. I was accepted into a brand new masters program that only accepted 12 people out of hundreds who applied from around the world and was one of the first ones to be picked to enter only the 2nd year of the program. Stating on the acceptance letter..." a stand out portfolio". But I couldn't attend for various reasons namely....financial even with the scholarship they offered me which was pretty generous (1/3 off the tuition) Yet...in my time there since I was going through the entry process...I still felt like a fish out of water in the group of students attending. I still stood out in a weird way in comparison.
I'm really into the environment and conservation.....but I Love nothing more than Gas guzzling high performance cars that get 6 miles to the gallon and scream with obnoxiousness. I'm part mechanic, part Artist and part Designer, and part Architect and part Structural Engineer. And yet....I've been a Triathlete, and a serious competitive Swimmer where I made my mark there as well. In my first Triathelon...I was 11th out of the water along side the professionals who do that for a living. I ended up around 850th since I'm such a piss poor runner. Talk about demoralizing....watching 844 people pass you from that kind of start! LOL But I enjoyed doing it and did them for a few years any way....just for fun.
I Love Sailing...and I Love Motor boats. Take your pick....I'm not picky. I'll eat most anything. I sleep anywhere....inside or outside....it doesn't matter. I enjoy a little of everything but not to much of anything. I've never been truly addicted to anything since once I get to a point....I need something new. That is....except a partner. I never would have left any of my previous serious relationship ie" marriages....unless the person I was married too made that decision. In part....that was from my insecure attachment but...not the part of me that is committed. Once I commit. I commit all the way. Commitment...has never been a problem for me.
It's seems....I am a Universal creature in may ways and can get along with anyone. And yet....I'm still not accepted by some in each and every category. As it seems...the better I perform in each one....the more of those who don't think I symbolically belong that come out of the wood work just to Fuck with me. That's not being a victim....that's actually the truth that I wish was not that way. The only competition I'm aware of....is when someone is next to me and wanting to race me to the finish line. I'll do that any day whether I win or not just for the fun of it.
The saddest thing for me in all of this comes.....when someone wants me to be just one of those things and needs to plug me into one hole and stay their. In my marriages and personal relationships....this has always been the case. At the time.....I didn't''t understand where I stood in comparing myself to everyone else. I've always just thought I was just like everyone else and only wanted to be included. I've never thought of myself as special or with any special talents or gifts aside from the obvious in Art. That's the one that really stood out as a child that was hard not to notice. But I didn't really care if anyone noticed it or not. I just did it...because I liked it and it was fun to do. I was compelled you might say. No one had to twist my arm and I wasn't doing it to get anything more from it than just to have fun and enjoy myself. Art in itself....is not a competition although....the few I've run into problems with....seemed to think it is? I think for them...it has a symbolic meaning to them and they need that badge or emblem to wear and are checking to see who else they have to beat to get there.
For me....you can't get there from here. I don't want to live symbolically.....I want the real deal or nothing at all. That appears to be a personal problem of mine? This Healer I'm supposed to be however....has eluded me? Maybe I need to follow the book on that one and see where it takes me? It couldn't hurt. What do you think?
Submitted by c ur self on
(" I didn't say that but I'm not going to argue with you about it." Boom. Dome deal. I refuse to argue but she's not putting words into my mouth either.)
I do this also ( speak up about her putting words in my mouth), but, it is useless, she will just fight to the death, no matter how wrong she is... (shaking my head) LOL..... I took her on a date last week and decided I wanted it to be nice peaceful evening, (which I want them all to be)...So i was being intentionally quiet, and relaxed, so as not to accidentally initiate any conversation's that could cause any kind of disagreements or down hill emotions:)....So as I'm driving to the restaurant she is talking about a subject pertaining to one of our adult children's job, who happens to work for a close relative of ours....So finally she gets to a spot in her talking where she wants my opinion....But, she asks it in a way that would force me to Judge our Son's decision....LOL...So I spoke up to say I have no opinion, I trust him to do the right thing....I almost got that out, before she cut me off....With "never mind!!"...LOL...She wasn't wanting to know what I thought, she was looking for a reply that suited her....And I guess I didn't give it.....
Got past it and got on to dinner....I was hungry looked at the menu and saw what sushi I wanted and laid my menu back down....She was talking and looking at her menu....Finally she asks me like she usually does...What are you ordering? If I get something different, will you swap two of each with me? So I tell her, yes....So she's still talking and whip's out her iphone and googles her messages to see her notes for what sushi she likes....The waiter is laughing, and decides to come back...I smile and nod at him....She starts naming out loud several items on the menu trying to decide....(Every thing has to be dramatic w/ her LOL)...She names one type of sushi twice, and both times she pronounced it wrong....So as I was silently viewing the menu while she was talking I just casually said the name of that sushi is pronounced so and so.......Eventually the waiter makes it back and she is talking to him...I had already given my order....So out of no where she starts telling this waiter how I was pronouncing this type sushi wrong....And I interrupted and corrected her about what had just been said like less than 5 minutes back....I said if you feel the need to tell a stranger about our dialogue...Get it right!...LOL....Of course she insisted it was me doing the wrong pronunciation...So my question here is, what good is it to make an attempt at correction, when a mind is unable to remember, and the spirit of the person is, I had rather die than say I am wrong about anything??.....Quiet is soooooo good...:)
C...I Feel Your Pain :)
Submitted by kellyj on
Sometimes.....you just can't win for losing. For myself personally....I've had to come face to face with past again...and have had to decide what's most important and make a choice. No matter how this affects me in relationship to that feeling like I've been here before, I've got to keep reminding myself..... that this.....is not then. And then proceed as if it's the first time this has ever happened to me. It really isn't personal.....the problem comes when I forget to remind myself of that...and act on all those others times it happens in the past....that my wife has no recollection or knowledge of.....even though she was there and was the one doing these things....each and every time. I think at level of denial.....there really is no recollection or memory of anything in a way that might say...."oops, I made a mistake"....or even just..."maybe, I might be wrong."
What I have found that seems to be working with my wife at least. Is to pick my battles...and narrow everything down to exactly what is being said. "So.....I understand what your saying....and what your saying is...."I don't believe you." " I hear this is what you are saying....and you have that right. I'm not going to fight you just because you don't believe me." And end it right there.
In my case in these moments....this is what she's saying and I'm not disagreeing with her at all. I've found the more times I don't fight on her what she believes whether she's right or wrong. The more opportunities I have later (not then!!!! Heaven forbid!!!!! LOL )....to refute all her mis-beleifs as once.....and tell her what I believe about myself that is different or that I know is true. And just leave that right there too.
"I'm not saying you have to believe me or agree with me.....but this is what I believe." And that's it. It's not arguing or contesting anything. It's just saying what I believe. Somehow that time delay and the disconnect between all those things that were said in the past......and then refuting it later in the future addressing the whole lot of those things at once.....is different than saying it right then.....even though your basically saying the same thing?
At least with my wife.....part of that message (even without the specific recollection of each and every time she said "I don't believe you".....seem to to sink in? She still can't connect to the fact....that what she's not believing mostly are my personal feelings or reflections...not facts or not my opinion? (which is really ridiculous when you thing about it??)
"Gee....I feel a little warm in here."
"I disagree....I don't believe you."
About which part?? The "I"....the "feel"...or the "warm" part?? LOL
Submitted by c ur self on
I'm just tired...What it has come down to for me is, it's not about her, it's about me. It's about me continuing down this road of not engaging when things are not peaceful. Continuing to not take on responsibilities and concerns that aren't mine. Continuing to be quiet and mange my own emotions....
I could have handled the two incidents I listed differently....When she asked me that question I could have said..."Do you really want my true feelings to your question and are you willing to listen? Who does that? LOL...How many of us has to set up our talk time by reminding our spouses we are fixing to talk,, and make them aware it's their time to listen for 20 seconds....
At the restaurant I should have never corrected her on the name of the sushi....Let her call it anything she wants....I know she takes everything corrective as a personal put down.....Who has to live like that?? Oh...That would be me :)....
Submitted by kellyj on
I know without a doubt....that my wife acts compulsively. It's fear driven and I know this. But in the moment when she starts with those questions that I know are just a set up if I do anything but try and answer them honestly,...she going to imply or say....."I don't believe you."...when I'm being honest about how I feel. Or....I say something else which is not really how I feel....but in an attempt to circumvent her from saying "I don't believe you" in the first place. Which doesn't work!!! lol
She's going to say it, no matter what I say. And I know this. So why do I keep trying to find ways around it. It's what she thinks and there not much I can really do about that. Take it...or leave it. In this case.....take it and that's the only choice I have. Which means....I've got to come up with way to resolve that myself...for myself....and still be Okay with it. It's my problem that she doesn't believe me when I tell her how I feel. She's perfectly fine with it...."nothing wrong here":)
The big Picture....J
Submitted by c ur self on
Questions being asked that are a set up (I call them sending a message)...I have done this to my wife before. Because of our inability to communicate about subjects that she finds offensive, simple things like sharing in responsibilities. I learned to use questions that the answer to was the point I wanted to make....She isn't a dummy; and caught on quickly, and wouldn't answer. It was just my attempt to communicate my feelings in a way she might get it, without emotion, and an argument ensuing....But, also in reality it was just a form of manipulation, (even if it was an attempt to get her to discuss her behaviors in certain area's of life) so I have given it up for the attitude, If we can't have calm loving dialogue, lets just hug smile and be quiet...Quiet is good!
It really all goes back to conscience, Bottom line...you've got to care....We are all accountable for our own actions, and for those to change in either of us, we have to care, recognize it, and make the changes in ourselves...
As for as answering questions truthfully and hearing "I don't believe you" as the response....I get that also, but, once I answer truthfully I'm done with it. She has the answer, she can do what ever she wants with it....All "I don't believe you" is, is a defensive posture, and an attempt to extend what is usually already a unhealthy dialogue....And we both know where that leads.
Yep the big picture concerning relationships says there is some unhealthy things going on in a mind that can't engage and be vulnerable with their spouse w/ out having to be on guard...(I've never be able to do this, it's like laying your head on a chop block, she will always swing the ax)
I told her until she looses the competitiveness, defensiveness and victim mind...We would never have much of a marriage, or one of closeness anyway...( I give you credit and thanks for helping me to see, I was swapping my thankfulness for victim hood myself many times) The reality of it is....When this type of behavior is so engrained in us, when self protection mode has been a life long reality. Then there is no understanding of what it could be...(even though you may view it from others, and, even though you may have it yourself w/ friends and co-workers. People you really don't want anything from.
Yep it's time to make it about me; and manage my own life rightly, no matter what road this marriage ends up on...I went back and read one of my old posts...I need to take my own advice!
If I'm going to tell others to look in the mirror and deal with one they can impact, then I can't forget my own message!....That would make me a hypocrite wouldn't it?? Suck it up C Ur Self:)
C, I completely agree
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
once I answer truthfully I'm done with it. She has the answer, she can do what ever she wants with it.
A work colleague a long time ago gave me the piece of advice, don't try to help people if they don't ask for it.
As in here: helpfully (= condescendingly? Or was it with a pure spirit of serving an equal?) and perhaps simultaneously defensively, anxiously or self-justifyingly extending more explanations than were asked for. Speaking only of me, lol, the Recovering Explainer.
At any rate, telling the truth, once, is enough.
Who are you Now.....
Submitted by c ur self on
You see way to deep into my head :) We seem to have a great deal in common, but, you also (in my opinion) are extremely gifted at reading others....You seem to have Self Actualizing traits....
I think you and I are working
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I think you and I are working on some of the same things, C. This site has been such a help to me.
Sending one out for everyone on it.
Submitted by kellyj on
"That would make me a hypocrite wouldn't it?? Suck it up J:)" Though my challenges may be different in some ways...my goal is still the same. As NowOrNever mentioned...."the big picture" has never been my problem. My problem comes within the details going the other direction but the goal is still not to end up being a hypocrite. I think to do this, you have to see the forest and the trees at the same time both. This is my own personal challenge. There is a time and a place for everything....knowing or being aware of the appropriate time has always been a challenge for me. A work in progress....but at least....I'm working on it. That's a start? lol
"Questions being asked that are a set up (I call them sending a message)...I have done this to my wife before." C....you sound quite a bit different than my wife but I can make a comparison that sounds like my wife in this one way. ADHD or not....I have never had trouble understanding people when they speak to me as long as they are speaking openly, honestly and directly. I'm good with understanding accents and people from foreign countries that struggle with words sometimes in determining what they are trying to say (no problem...in fact...I've tested extremely high in my ability to pick up foreign languages easily and phonetically parroting back or picking up the correct pronunciation). I almost never (rarest or rare) correct peoples pronunciation. In fact...as long as I understand WHAT the word or thing they are trying to say....I could care less how they say it. I can generally tell the difference and pick up subtleties with sarcasm, innuendo, humor, factitiousness and even more indirect insults done with the guise of civility. Normally....I can do this without a problem in person because of the 87% or non-verbal communication going on at the same time. I read non-verbal communication extremely well.
What I'm terrible at...and what I don't get at all.....is the message within the message or that question that sends a message you mentioned. Non-verbal written or spoken word communication to me....is this cryptic kind of communication that will only confound me and make me (usually)... irritated. And that's usually because I don't get it. Either the message being sent...or the reason why someone is doing this with me? ( or at all for any reason?) I can think of a few exception but those are far and few between?
The end result of that only pisses me off usually. This goes right back to being a born "splainer". As the personality test explained....I love to share new ideas and thoughts and discuss them openly with others which is part of what being a born splainer is all about. I have the Library of Congress in my head man....it's hard to hold it in all the time!!! lol
Yet...I don't have a burning need or compulsion to share that with everyone and can usually tell if someone is interested there too. At least live and in person.
I think mostly here on the forum....I do have a need to get out what I can't say to my wife which is in part....venting it from the back pressure built up from having to hold my tongue and not saying anything to her which has helped tremendously in order not to that with her. It's also helped me see just how much comes out which has also been good for me to see.
As I've attempted at the very least...is to say something of value no matter how much, how little ....or even within a vent....to say something and not just barf my emotions all over the place without some kind of benefit or something to learn for who ever is reading it. So venting or purging a built up "need" to express myself is also part of being a "splainer." This is the kind of splain'in is what you see here in my writing.
But what you just brought up here about those cryptic messages? The message within a message? My wife does this non stop and it's a very dishonest way of communication. I can't speak for your wife or how she interprets this....but anytime someone is "TRYING" to say something and not coming right out and saying it. This is a.... BIG..... Trigger for me!! BIG ONE!! And what does it Trigger? SPLAIN'in!!! lol
But this kind of splain'in is compulsive and a result of the abuse I had as a child. Done in this way..it's a rather clever.... devious way of diverting attention away from themselves......and at the same time...... projecting these cryptic messages...is a great way to condition or control someone into spilling their guts to you to use as Ammo against you....with intention.
If you've ever been to a used car lot and dealt with someone skilled in this area....you've had this experience before. I can say some very good things here about my own father in respect to this. He taught me how to do this as a way to teach me how to deal head to head with a salesperson doing this with you and not get suckered in by someone attempting to do this with you in that very situation. It was so ironic...to hear him actually explain exactly what he had been doing with me (and everyone) all the time....in teaching me with this intention...on how this is done later when I was older. It was another one of those....OMFG!!! moments..... that seemed to explain a lot more than what his intentions were. And I never would have got that on my own for the very reason he was explaining it to me. When someone communicates to you "in code" always to avoid actually saying what they're thinking or doing.....the result on the other side is to be confounded and confused from this kind of dishonest....non open communication style. That is....if this is "why" they are doing it.
As you said it C.....you were doing it for an entirely different reason. Out of your own fear of Triggering your wife into a confrontation. But what I'm taking about as another reason to do this....is from a different reason.
In order to go to my father to ask or say anything....you needed to have all your ducks in a row and be armed and ready for anything in order to pass through the gantlet and make it out the other side alive. The anxiety and the fear that this creates...Triggers the spain'in every time. This is part of that Gaslighting technique that's also part of that Trigger for me.
Going back to my wife now and comparing her to my father. Both Gaslight....but for a different reason. My Trigger however....doesn't know that? My 'Trigger knows only one reason why a person would do such a thing and it's never a good one as far as my Trigger is concerned. My father even spelled it out to me in detail and taught me how to engage a person doing this coming from the other side. For all good reasons in that kind of competition or adversarial relationship (a used car dealer) I don't think I need to splain one.... any more I think?
What NowOrNever just said in her comment to you C....takes into consideration all these possibilities...
As in here: helpfully (= condescendingly? Or was it with a pure spirit of serving an equal?) and perhaps simultaneously defensively, anxiously or self-justifyingly extending more explanations than were asked for. Speaking only of me, lol, the Recovering Explainer.
From an ardent and life long splainer myself.....point by point.
Condescendingly? Since I love nothing more that to share new ideas and my thoughts in this area....accessing what I know and sharing it with someone who wants to know these things or is like this themselves....will read this correctly and not think it's condescending or patronizing. I have no problem with someone who is just like me in this area. We are in synch immediately...and now immediately what the other person is doing.
Another possibility....is someone who does this none stop even when others appear not to be interested ...and is doing it for another reason which might be because they think they are superior and assumes everyone just wants to know everything they know everywhere they go. There could be several reasons for this I think...but mostly....the intention behind it is mostly self serving?
Speaking stickily for myself. I don't really like being the center of attention in fact....I usually go just the opposite way and say nothing at all. I'm more like Mr Ed if you remember the theme song? lol But when I do have something to say....it comes out usually all at once as splain'in. All things considered. It's not from being condensing from the source/ reason or motivation and not out of arrogance or need to feel or sound superior....or even assuming anything or being presumptuous. Much of it for me has to do with that Library of Congress in my head and my inability to filter in the moment ...along with having bicycle brakes to my high performance, high rpm engine which probably does come off this way without any intention or even awareness that it does. All things considered here. That's the ADHD part here as I'm saying it.
Helping? It helps me tremendously....when someone explains things in detail and in it's entirety with lots of information added and included into things they say whether it's pertinent... directly needed or asked for....or whether I need it or not. I can sit and listen to an interesting person tell stories for hours and not say anything as long as I'm learning something. And I will return the favor in kind....in the same way as an exchange. 'This is how I learn anything about people. For that matter....it's how I learned much of what I learned growing up as a kid from the lack of any good forth coming information coming from my own family. I may talk a lot sometimes....which may give the impression that I'm not listening.
Nothing further from the truth is actually happening. However..... from the perspective of someone who is confronting a person who likes to hear themselves talk, be the center of attention and is not really listening to what anyone is saying...I can see the problem here....especially if this is what you are use to and it is coming from a person who really is mostly doing it for exactly that. To hear themselves talk..and is not really listening?
What is helping or helpful for me for example....may not be helping or is only annoying or pushing others who are not like this. I can see this now pretty clearly but as of yet....I have found a way "HOW' ...to do things differently even knowing this? If help is what I need from others...and this is what I want and need myself.....how can you determine what another person needs who needs something entirely different than you?
What I have learned specific to my wife only. In her own cryptic....mostly dishonest..... and mostly not open kind of way (along with a lot of accusation, projection, and direct labeling of my behavior)...over a great deal of time...and with a great deal of weeding out by deductive reasoning and digging down to what she is really trying to say that's buried under a huge pile of confusing rhetoric.....rhetorical questions.....indecisive flotsam and jetsam...and hidden messages inside the message is very hard to read.
In this very unclear way of tap dancing, and saying things filled with innuendo, sarcasm and incomplete ideas or thoughts in this very confounding and confusing indirect mix of all of this....she is trying to something. That much...I do know for sure. What I don't know...is what she's actually trying to say most of the time? What I read is what I see yet she's not saying anything directly except for her conclusions. That part....comes out exactly as I see and read it.
Instead of saying straight up....."you sound very condescending to me when you speak this way to me." This she never says. What she says is all that other stuff but never what she really means to say most of the time? And most of the time...she interprets what I say....she doesn't take what I say literally....point blank....for face value without reading into it. I'm just the opposite....and try not to read into what she says EVER!! Period. No reading into anything....that's my credo there. If I do....I will start to make assumptions and jump to conclusions myself which I try very hard not to do and take everything at face value and not read into anything. You can see the problem with the message within the message approach with me here can't you?
"Hey Negro....that's all you had to say!!! WTF??" lol (that's a commonly used phrase that's I'm familiar with and have used and have heard used before with people I know. It's a popular movie quote....but if someone actually reads into it anything more than the meaning in itself out of context. They might read into...a very specific thing. Yet..there's nothing racial to it....as I said it. Case in point....for my next point and the most important one I want to show here.
Back to my Trigger. My Trigger....only knows ONE thing and only know ONE reason why a person would do this with me. It was even explained and taught to me specifically....in how to confront....this ONE type of person. My Trigger knows exactly why someone is doing this with me and it knows it from only an adversarial confrontation. My gut...and my Trigger....are not confused in any way. My gut knows exactly why...a person is being evasive and indirect and confusing. They are trying to hide something. Which in my case....what was being hidden...was for a more devious intention.....consistently true...always....every time. This was never confusing to me what so ever!!
But even knowing this....I still have to catch myself from splain'in. It's from this conditioned habit...and nothing more. But like I said....this is only part of it. The other part is strictly ADHD and nothing more than that.
And yet....it still doesn't tell me how to do it differently and this is still what I have to learn how to do it better?
What's missing here on this forum for example....is all the non-verbal communication going on when you are in front of another person. That 87% of communication between two people when you are live and in person.
As I have come to realize.....I rely on this at times almost exclusively, to understand or read people. I also rely heavily on this part to communicate myself. I am very animated in general: use gestures with my body and hands, act things out, draw maps diagrams and pictures, and use anything around me or any visual aid or reference to fill in what my words do not say. Here on this forum....all of this is missing in my communication and it leaves me at a loss many times in using words alone to replace what I am unable to use in the context of writing only.
I am a very visually acute and a very tactile physical person. All my sensitivities are related to these kinds of things and not words by themselves. What I read well...is body language: eyes, expressions, tone, gestures, energy and physical state of appearance and read very little into the words being said. I take words literally for face value and hidden messages inside messages only do one thing for me and that's to Trigger my thoughts...into only ONE direction. Not to say completely exclusively....but yet at times it seems....almost exclusively. Words by themselves coming from my perspective....leave that 87% that's appears missing....somewhat of a mystery to me at times?
And as you said to me in another post C.....you are a very sensitive person. You may not think this of me....but I am very sensitive too. I think perhaps.....not the same way you are however? Possibly?
And in the same way I think my wife is all things considered. She is very sensitive to words and I'm not. Stick and stones man. That's my credo for survival. Words by themselves....will never hurt me. My tolerance for such things has been built up from a lifetime of having to deal with words being used to try and hurt me or used against me. The emotional impact or effect that words have for me....is extremely low in terms of sensitivity. This can be both and good and a bad thing taking this all into consideration?
But as far as learning how to do this better here? I still have a lot of work to do and without the ability for the other 87% in what I rely on mostly to communicate. It still leaves me without a lot of options for the time being?
The one thing that no one knows about me here on this forum....is how sensitive, and tender I am physically. The touch I have in a tactile physical sense....is one of my strongest suits of all. Hugging, kissing and physical affection is easy for me. My "Touch" you might say....whether it be with animals and humans is extremely non-offensive and sensitive. Animals (and humans alike)...have always responded to this side of me well. No problems there. I am predominantly....and physical creature and not one for many words would it comes to expressing this side of me. I also have and still have a mild hearing loss. As a child....it was really bad and I had trouble hearing poeple at all....even when they were in front of me. Without the abilities I developed starting that far back in my ability to read and communicate physically....words alone make it difficult to know much about anyone until I can meet them in person. I've been retraining myself and learning new skills in this area all the time and this forum has been invaluable in teaching me how to do that.
Also learning quite quickly....where my own judgments and hypocrisy comes from and how to change that thinking myself. As I see this....we're all pretty much doing the same thing but for different reasons. Knowing my own different reasons for doing it....is how I can see the same ones in others too and possibly use those to figure out what is not being said by my wife as well. Knowing how to do something that you didn't learn before....requires the breaking of those old habits and forming knew ones at the same time. This is why it's so important and telling for me to see my wife trying. I don't care that she doesn't do things well....as long as I see her trying and attempting things and is not stuck in denial. All that tells me...is she has no idea or no awareness of these things at all.
All that says to me is....it's never going to change or be any different. On the same token....it tells me I've got to change myself....before my wife will ever be able to see it either. That comes first here as far as I'm concerned.....which is exactly what I'm attempting to do.
Yep it's time to make it about me; and manage my own life rightly, no matter what road this marriage ends up on...I went back and read one of my old posts...I need to take my own advice!
For what it's worth C.....even when I do this and even when I'm aware of it.....it still leaves the learning how to do things differently and applying them and putting them into practice. I may not do it all the time or fail to do it sometimes....but that doesn't saying anything more than my ability to do it at this time. In order to give that same grace to my wife....I have to give it to myself first in order not to become hopeless every time I fail to do so in the process. It takes time and practice...but knowing "HOW" and "WHAT" to do first....once you are aware? It's the biggest thing missing for me here on this forum all things considered?
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
For what it's worth C.....even when I do this and even when I'm aware of it.....it still leaves the learning how to do things differently and applying them and putting them into practice. I may not do it all the time or fail to do it sometimes....but that doesn't saying anything more than my ability to do it at this time. In order to give that same grace to my wife....I have to give it to myself first in order not to become hopeless every time I fail to do so in the process. It takes time and practice...but knowing "HOW" and "WHAT" to do first....once you are aware? It's the biggest thing missing for me here on this forum all things considered
I agree, J. Perhaps, personalities in the particular couple being different, we have to figure out the most important "how tos" ourselves on some things. One spouse will have been through the learning curve of having been in multiple prior relations, for whatever resistences and techniques he or she developed out of that; another spouse will be somewhat straight from the arms of the parents into the relation, and woo, that's another matter.
I shrink from giving people on the site procedural "tips" myself. Probably just my personality, and the online and professional literature pretty well has a handle on the "tips"
This is often a place for support, a place to vent if that's needed and, at least as I think of the place, a learning lab on some things, so maybe it's natural that we bring things for support or to the learning lab that aren't working, not things that are working well...agreed, though, J, totally agreed that so many times the issue is not having a good attitude, it's how to handle that kind of interaction.
I've said some positive things to you fairly recently, so now, don't disqualify this one in your mind with the "she's just being nice" : ) I wont do you any good if I'm just happy clappy to you or being fluffy. Or exaggerating, etc. So take your medicine, dude :D
It's been very heartening to read what you and your wife are up to. Sure every day is a little box that when you pull the ribbon might have a happy surprise or might blow up like an exploding cigar. So I'm not talking to you about the this very moment, or wanting to wash away any friction. I am very, very moved that you and your wife are tackling what you are...however today went... You know, a lot of people get through a therapy session kind of all talk but no action. I'm very impressed that your wife talked to the therapist to tell him the truth: do this with me, this works with me, give me this kind of an assignment, and he did. He's a smart cookie; perhaps a whole smart cake : ) Sounds like he knew she was telling it like it was, and that he both gave her something that she could do, not that she couldn't easily do....and then the gorgeous thing is that she came home and did what he said, worked on not talking negative. And that youve responded accepting and responding to the positive. You know the rest and the ups and and downs. Change happens inch by inch, one step forward one step back another step forward. As you know. You two are figuring out the hows for the two of you.
It would be great to have some models, yes. John Gottman's book on marriage came to mind, but you'll have read that. I need to reread it myself. You got some good hows from Melissa. Right now, I'm roughly in C's territory, in a different relation, but maybe you'll remember that I came into all of this with zero factual or experience knowledge of ADHD and, in fact, terrified to see the impact on me of what (then) were to me so many crises and disturbances.
So like C but in my own relation, I'm dealing with the hows of things like how to distinguish between ADHD directly generated behavior (which I more and more appreciate), from when something that my husband does is not ADHD generated, from when it's my misread of either ADHD or whatever he did that's not ADHD, and my classic for me: what, in the face of reality am I going to do that is positive here? So lol, my "how tos" that seem at the moment to be of most help to the relation with my husband are how to handle myself! Not that care of him and sensitivity to him is not on the daily reality, too.
Your how tos have to involve your bodacious self and your wife.
To say what I know you don't need to hear because you know it well, I think the hows for a relationship in which there's a lot of lying and hiding (as in hiding money, addicitive habits, etc) need to be quite different from how a stay at home mom handles things in the household and with the kids. Et cetera.
Just chatting, I think where the site has been a huge, beyond huge help to me is that people, both with ADHD and without, write what they really are feeling and really are thinking.
One of the biggest things for me, but then, that's where I am on the curve of learning about my husband's ADHD and its impact on my present and my old incompletions and present capabilities, is how people handle their own attitude. Disposition of mind.
That's pretty vague, it's not a communication technique, but it's helped me a lot. Let's say, attitude of my own that is positive and informed about my husband and myself leads to me choosing actions and words taht have a better chance of contributing to us.
It has helped me when you have sorted out, in your posts, your history of separating yourself as who you are, which includes having ADHD and a lot of other stuff, from how you were treated...or are treated. My husband is his own man as you are, but you've helped me think sometimes more in terms of what take he might be having on something due to his ADHD...pure gold, J.
The number of partnersof people with ADHD on this site, who have been laid low by whatever has come along with ADHD in their partner, and who are finding the resources in themselves to tackle, and inch by inch rebuilding core self and a different way of relating have been a huge help to me. As things are now, I'm not going through such hard times as they, and so I powerfully respect their rebuilding of themselves. I've never, ever, ever, thought my partner wanted me weak, or was trying to cut me down, or couldn't manage his life if he couldn't control me; neverheless, I came onto the site way down, and have a lot of models on the site of people who kept going for good, for themselves, in very hard times. So that "how" was interior work, how to find courage and value in yourself. You know, you've read stories on the site. Those kinds of hows have helped me very much
But about that how, how to talk, how to interact, the techniques of it (like yoga, aikido, a good tennis match), yes that would be great. I've never looked up relationship coaches for myself, but I love the idea. Why not? It's like any art, skill or sport, why not?
Does Melissa have "intermediate" and "advanced" courses? :)
Just wanted to tell you that with my on/off the site these days, I've seen a lot of things in your posts that if we were at dinner I'd want to stop and talk over with you.
Warp speed, Captain Kirk! Holding you and your wife in my thoughts, for sure.
Things On My Mind ...NON
Submitted by kellyj on
First...I'd love that chat over dinner you were talking about. I have learned a lot here, and from you....in just hearing an open dialog that is not judgmental or is not sugar coated either. 10/4 on that one! lol
In regards to my T.....he has been the rock I can count on for good solid advise. But mostly...he doesn't give advise...he gives insights and perspective. These have become invaluable tools to use on an on going basis...not just advise on the "how to do something". As my wife expressed to him....this is what she needs and works best for her and that's what he gave her. I asked him once...."what are you doing with me....what method is this kind of therapy or approach?" He said "When I first began practice....I thought I had it all figured out. Just follow these steps and tell people how to do it and everything will be fine right? Well....it didn't actually work out that way. I don't use any particular approach or method with anyone any more....I use anything and everything that I have found that works over the last 30 years of sitting in this chair listening to everyone basically...say the same thing. The problems are all the same...and there is very little that I haven't heard before. The only thing different...is each person who says that exact same thing. I custom tailor everything I do...to that person/couple individually...and no two people who walk through that door...do I say or tell them to do the same thing twice or for the next one(s) who walk through that door."
My wife is a person who knows what she like and what she doesn't like....and she makes no bones about it!! lol I do too....I just think my list of absolutes are a bit shorter than hers?? lol All things considered:)
About that list? Likes and dislikes. Which means....I had to figure out all those likes....and all those dislikes....and figure out what to do about each one separately.( even if they are all related to the same basic theme....that obsessive thing that she's really not ready or open to talk about or look at just yet which is the basis of her denial )
Coming to this forum did a couple things for me right off the bat. First....finding out the particulars and getting to the bottom of what all the fuss was about? Thinking....am I really that bad??? What I finally arrived at....was I really wasn't all that bad...however....there were still some things I wasn't necessarily....seeing as much as a priority or of the importance....that I needed to place on those things. It was the matter of degree...and it really isn't just black and white.
And that's where I had to really look at my wife in comparison. As I found....she was the one who was black and white....which points more to her dysfunction...than it does right at her as a person. Does any of this sound familiar? It should....she isn't her dysfunction (OCD)....her dysfunction is really what is black and white here...and her dysfunction is circumventing her rational thinking and doing all the talking for her. This should sound like a broken record by now....as it should. These denial behaviors are the same no matter which one you have or which disorder or maladaptive issue you are talking about.
You haven't reported any major malfunctions so I'm assuming you dealt with any of yours along the way. (and still are what ever they may be? You don't have to have a disorder...for issues to crop up that cause other people to do a double take? lol)
But you are so right about people reaching different stages...at different times in their life.... in their own ability to see these things and do things about them. And when they don't....other people have to make adjustments if they can't adapt or become more flexible to accommodate others?
For what it's worth....I do try and find the humor in these things as much as possible. If you can't beat em' join em'....I'm an equal opportunist and can make fun of myself just as easily. The fact that I do this so often...is not to make fun of people....it's to point to the ridiculousness of it all ....and venting some that frustration at the same time. I think this has been my life long way....of trying to see the positive side and humor in things that are not so positive. It doesn't mean I don't take these things seriously. Mostly....it's ME who I don't take that seriously along with trying not to allow myself to make a federal case out of nothing. Even the face of someone (who I see at times) doing that very thing.
The problem again....is she's not doing this. It's her OCD that taking things so seriously and she as the person....is not like that at all. When she not overcome by this compulsion that making her miserable....she is a pretty easy person to get along with all things considered. Me too.
I told her this just the other day and it's absolutely the Gods honest truth...."You know....we don't fight over the important stuff or rarely actually disagree over much of anything. When it comes right down to it....we always seem to agree on the things that are most important. What we get into it over mostly....is all the surface stuff. Mostly....it's all superficial non-sense. What's up with that?"
It's true the problem is....all those Mole Hills turning into a Mountain. If that's not the definition of OCD...I don't know what is? She might argue this with you...and say everyone is like this? "It's your damn Mole Hill I keep tripping over....what's your malfunction Private Pyle!!"
And....I'm not going there....any more!!! lol
And this boils it all right down to those "do's" and "don't" you're talking about. Some Mole Hills are "do's" and some are "don'ts". And only one person knows what those are? Yet....she can't tell you that until you get there and they all have a different thing that's required, keep track of...and know which thing to do in each case. There's line from the Beatles song comes to mind here..."how many holes does it take....to fill the Albert Hall?" A Butt Load...and a half!!!! LOL
It would be much easier...if you could just go..."hey ...you know...I think you have some OCD looking like behaviors....I think the prudent thing to do on my behalf (since these things are really your Mountain and only my Mole Hill?).....why not bring the size of those down a notch and call it good? I can live with that kind of compromise if you can.... since I know you have to do the same things with me and my ADHD? What do you think...let's make a deal and agree on that right now so we can move on to more important things for both of us."
If it was that easy.....our therapist would be out of work!! LOL In the mean time....working on those "do's" and "don'ts" is really the best course of action instead of making those things a Mountain on my end along with her. That does nothing for either one of us and is especially bad for me.
Learning to do these things differently myself and finding those holes one by one.....only proves to be a positive thing for me anyway and I get to learn some new things along the way.
The only exception or caveat here for me is.....she doesn't get to pick when I go hole filling anymore. I get some say in the matter...since I'm the one doing it!!
Thanks again for you supportive thoughts and encouragement. I'm glad to hear that some of the things I've said...have made it through to someone who can use it. You can Thank my T and others like Melissa...for helping out here with a lot of what I've passed on....along with that experience my T was talking about:)
Us leopards and our spots....:)
Submitted by c ur self on
(It takes time and practice...but knowing "HOW" and "WHAT" to do first....once you are aware? It's the biggest thing missing for me here on this forum all things considered?)
Interesting point you make about the verbal cues; I'm much like you say you are...Talking w/ body language; It is a distraction and a turn off for my wife. I seem to have better luck getting my message heard and understood, by a simple text or email....I can loose her almost immediately with body language or an excited tone. In reality, it is easy to look for something, if you don't want to be there having the discussion in the first place... And like you say about reading people, it don't take a rocket scientist to see she's the cat on a hot tin roof, if I want to discuss something beyond good times....
In the past I would be so intense when I felt disrespected for only seeking some small commitment of accountability from her, that I hurt our already fragile ability to communicate...(I had no walking away sense...I couldn't see WHY it was so hard to discuss simple things like a vacuum cleaner and a mop, and why she never used one!...I was quiet overwhelming to her...So, I'm working on me...I've had to loose the notion we could calmly agree about many things, when our minds see the world is different colors....So now; no matter the circumstances or what level of consciousness I seem to be getting from her. I owe her to be calm when I address her concerning anything. I also owe myself the right to be heard...(which when I was not being heard, and being interrupted, caused the escalation in emotion to begin with)...NOTHING CAN BE FORCED!...So I reserve the right to walk away, when calm isn't good enough...
The HOW's and WHAT to do....How (calmly w/ all honesty) What to do? You've given me a lot of pointers whether directly or indirectly....No labels, no over analyzing. (this one's mine) Forget about adhd....Walks w/ hand holding is great....Don't want anything from her except to be near her...
Like Now said....You two are already doing a lot of the work....Be at peace friend....
Agitation = Anger....C
Submitted by kellyj on
This one took me quite a while to figure out. Like you...I would get frustrated when I would get cut off or interrupted seemingly for no reason?
When she would instantly get upset...or even start to get angry herself....I had not idea what this was all about at first? Sometimes...I wasn't angry at all and just animated even excited and exuberant in a happy friendly way about a topic. Those were the moments I would get angry or at least....feel really disrespected or dismissed for no reason? Especially when I was actually happy and having an interesting conversation about something. Even if the volume of my voice went up which it does when I'm exited about something even if I'm happy and having a good time.
Finally....after enough of these times which would end up with a fight over this....she started blurtt out...."you're getting agitated and angry now!!"
Like WTF?? I'm happy...have a smile on my face...and am talking about a topic we're both enjoying together. What am I doing wrong here?
In her mind....agitation = anger period. Agitation = exuberant, excited, animated, expressive, overjoyed or showing any kind of emotion outwardly in a more than normal....flat, and extremely controlled manner. (unlike her of course! lol ) And increasing the volume of your voice also = Agitation.
None of which is anger...in fact...just the opposite in the moment. The only thing that was making me angry....was her interrupting me and accusing me of being angry? lol Another one of those set ups I was talking about?
When I had her convinced it wasn't anger she was seeing...(which she had to concede since I was smiling usually at the time lol )....then it was Agitation? lol Which she was saying....without saying it....."stop being Agitated!!!"
You can win for losing....when you aren't allowed to express yourself openly and show emotion or else it's a bad thing. Even with a smile on your face??? LOL
I've found now....what I have to do...is sit down (not standing since I would be animated and agitated then lol )....and then lower my voice ( lower than normal)....and talk in a flat...rather mono-tone...none expressive voice (which is so unlike me lol). And that's what's called...."not being Agitated." LOL !!!
Anything outside of that....is "Agitated" which = "Anger".
I've got to tell you C.....if I'm smiling.....I'm not angry!!! Guaranteed!! Excited and happy yes....but Anger?? In what alternative Universe? lol
I feel your pain:)
C....One More Thing About Those "HOW TO's"
Submitted by kellyj on
As I've read about your interactions with your wife....something stands out as it does with my wife and I. This is part of one of those things that I have learned through years of therapy and in Melissa's couples course. This is more of the "WHY" part in all of this which is part of the "Child Parent Dynamic". On the surface....it's a pretty easy concept to understand. In an overt obvious sense.....it is easy to see if one spouse is chasing after the other spouse like a parent trying to get a child to cooperate or follow the ground rules or agreed upon responsibilities. That's right on the surface and easy to see.
What's not so easy to see....in fact....impossible to actually see....is if something is a Trigger to a person childhood traumas or issues that are unresolved between their own parents and that person NOW...in the present time. If a person by default....is not aware of any of this...and only see's themselves and everything they do as being the adult person they are (denial again)....they aren't going to see themselves as that child now in the moment....and acting out the same behavior once again....but now in the adult version of it.(only slightly...and possibly not...modified)
This again is not a difficult concept to understand....but now....can you recognize it yourself when you see it happening? In other words....do you still think you are talking to the adult person you know....or are you talking to that child now?
At this point and time....I aware enough about my own behaviors and why I do them sometimes...along with my own Triggers...that have this kind of one way....way of seeing things. That I can tell without a second thought....where they came from and why they are there. It's easy to over write those things in the moment ......and even re-write that permanently.....to change those things once you are aware that your doing it....even on a more subtle basis. I've gotten really good at doing this which is exactly what I learned how to do in therapy. In other words....talk myself out of it by using the tools he's given me to use so I can move right along without a hic-up. In this adult kind of way? lol
I was sharing my experience with you about the "Agitation" thing my wife use to throw at me. I've noticed....she's toned that down a great deal since that first started a while ago. What was kind of easy for me to see in her in those moments....was this kind of transformation that was happening. In order to understand this completely....you'd have to know or see her mother in action. When I first met her mother....she was elderly and not much of a threat to anyone. Physically that is!! lol But what she was even in her elderly state (and probably along with some dementsia on top of it) was an "emotional terrorist" ...basing it on how I felt (in a joking way).
In a more objective view....she was kind of out of control of her emotions and was in need to go everywhere...and share those with others in a very controlling way. (putting it mildly lol )
I actually witnessed this first hand myself with my own mother and the other Alzheirmer and dementia patients in the care facility where she lived at the end of her life. These people...fundamentally....had reverted back to little children again in many ways. And since...these patients...did pass away at different times.....new ones were always coming in to join the group of patients in each area of the facility that was divided up into smaller more manageable groups.
And not matter how many there were at any given time...there was always one or two....who were more problematic than everyone else. Ironically....if I had to put a label on these patients...I would call them "Agitators". But of course....everyone knew why they were like this and gave them full leeway and understanding.
My mother for example....was like a lamb. She would do anything you'd tell her to do with a kind of vacant...but genuinely sweet...smile on her face and never cause any problems for any of the care givers.
And then were patients like "Bob" and "Sarah". I will always remember these two. Kind of hard not to notice or remember in a more humorous way. Bobs thing was the TV set and changing channels. You couldn't even walk...in the direction of the TV in the group area...or Bob would get very excited and started barking orders at you. If you weren't ready for this....Bob could be quite startling!! lol And Bob....would not let that go!!! He would come after you if you were to engage him (if you picture an 85 year old man trying to chase you down and scold you or reprimand you. Not too terribly intimidating. lol) And the care givers would gently escort Bob back to his seat to continue watching his show on TV. There were times....when Bob wouldn't let go and would get more agitated and they would have to take Bob to his room and away from the TV to get him to calm down.
Bob....was an 85 year old child....trying to act as the adult in charge (of the TV in this case)...and spent his time making sure that everyone else was behaving themselves. This is exactly what he was doing and it was really obvious. (and kind of funny after you realized it and got over the initial shock of Bobs...rather aggressive style of parenting)
Sarah was the same way but she had her own "Thing" she was fixated on. Sarah would just come right into every ones room any time she felt like it....without knocking of course.....and invite herself in for a chat with you. lol And Sarah wanted everyone to know...that the people running the facility...could not be trusted for a second. And Sarah....was going to make sure...that they didn't get away with it! lol She was a one woman...vigilante and looking for violators and was always on the hunt...for anyone who might look suspicious. Which for Sarah....was everybody!! LOL
I can relate this to my wife in a different way in relation to that Agitation thing that she was bring up with me. If you can picture...living with a person like Bob or Sarah....all you life...who areis extremely invasive and intrusive in this way. From how I perceived her mother...in the same way...she was just another Bob or Sarah....but probably more like them most of her life.
And from my wife's perspective as a child and in her years growing up with Sarah....as an example. Any behavior (even the slightest hint) of the same thing coming out of anyone else...is going to Trigger her to what she experienced the same way in her past. From the Bob and Sarah perspective....they were definitely Agitators!!!! LOL
So if you can follow me to this point....it makes it easier to see where..."Agitator" comes from when my wife sees anything..."more animated or overt" emotionally from me? It's a Trigger for my wife but she's not aware of why or the reason that this happens? (or at least...is not yet in control of it herself and doesn't want to talk about it. Either way?)
And in the same way as I saw Bob and Sarah.....in those moments....my wife becomes that child again being harangued by her mother...the real Agitator here. lol
It's why I have to stay extremely calm and non threatening...or my wife gets Triggered back in time.