Greetings community members!
One major challenge that I had with my now ex-husband, and an ongoing issue with our children, is argumentative, uncooperative, and sometimes downright defiant behavior. This goes beyond procrastination. This is expressed is an argument or excessive questions and refusal to do even the simplest task. For example, picking up empty water bottles from the floor of one's room. Or not putting wet towels on furniture. Whenever request is made, even in the nicest of terms such as "would you please pick up that wet towel and put it in the bathroom so it doesn't where in the furniture" and argument will ensue and it won't happen. My children are now teenagers so I understand this is an element of the normal teenage years. But towards the end of our relationship the same behavior pattern developed with my now ex-husband, and I am afraid that he modeled that behavior as our relationship was failing. He had undiagnosed and untreated ADHD and I descended into situational depression and despair. I was the organizer of the family so I was always asking, and then nagging to try to get things done (I regret that I had not found "The ADHD Effect on Marriage" at this point). He developed a defensive attitude that extended to any request. Now my children act the same way. If I say "Can you please take the trash out?" it is never "Sure mom." Or I get 20 questions about the request.
So my question is whether this is part of the ADHD syndrome or a learned secondary behavior that develops as a consequence of the effect ADHD has on relationships. And how do I best handle it? It makes intimate partners and parents crazy after awhile.
Thanks for responding!
I think there's a link but I
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I think there's a link but I don't know what exactly the link is or in which direction it goes (i.e., which came first, ODD or ADHD). When we were still married, my ex-h actually told me that when I expressed to him my desire that he look for a job (he was unemployed for many years), his brain told him to do the opposite. I will say, though, that most of the time, I didn't talk about his lack of a job, and he didn't look for work when I was silent, either.
It's learned behaviors, but its primary; not secondary....
Submitted by c ur self on
Arguments can't happen if the parent want repeat themselves....Training children can be painful...My mom would tell us to take the trash, make up our bed, pick up our junk etc....It was always best for us to do it the first time asked....Getting lead outside to the trash can's by the ear made its own point...No need for words....
We live in day and time where many parents think it's OK to argue with minors....I'm not one of them....Not saying I've not made the same choice plenty of times....But in hind site it was a mistake....
But I do agree that we teach them it's ok, when we model it as adults.....
I wish you well in stemming the arguments....
C
I agree C........
Submitted by kellyj on
I think these avoidant and ODD like behaviors comes from neglect more than anything. Neglect in terms of "not wanting to be bothered" because it's 'too painful" like you said? My father was "avoidant"...not my mother...and these attachments come primarily from the mother not the father at first? I cannot say I was "neglected" in that way at all in my early childhood.
My ADHD mom, was Johnny on the Spot and eager and commited to making sure my basic needs were met. Not my emotional needs as much which was problematic to a certain degree....but basic fundamental needs ( Maslows first rung on the ladder ) and any real neglect was not the issue with her on her part? Father yes....mother no. And my Mom of course was pretty Nuerotic anxious and obsessive...so that is where any insecure attachment style I picked up from her stated as "AnxiousPreoccupiedd"...it's just that she was preoccupied with her kids? A little "too much" in that case......not "too little". And with that comes the OCD like behaviors( I think )....more than, or as much as ODD but my wife appears to have both so go figure there?
My father however....was not OCD at all and more rigidly insistatant in "having his way" so that maybe "having it your way" and being a "perfectionist" is less OCD as a repetative pattern? Not Nuerotic, is what I'm saying...but aside from anything out of the norm.....neither of my parents would argue or negotiate with me if I was acting out or being rebellious. As I'm saying this as you are saying too I think.....there is a difference between normal "rebelious" kids and these normal stages and ODD which I suspect is in another class by itself. Between the two.....I showed definitely more the OCD(nuerotic behaviors )....not the ODD....which with me was more just a strong rebelious streak which just disappated on it's own like many kids and teenagers? I can't say that was a real problem and I didn't have any real problems with authority figures either then or now? Really...no problems there what so ever....just a pentchant for mischief in some questionable areas is all? I probably could easily say I was not a strong canditate for Juvunile Deliquency , but just a touch of dancing the fine line but not going over in anything in the extreme.
Having to deal with 100's of kids ( who were not mine ) in terms of teaching, coaching, relating, and even disciplining.....as a paid job....that was my job....and I was not in the habit of arguing with them under those circumstance either? There was no up side to not dealing with the ones I had to deal with and neglecting to do so....only lead to more of the same? No one likes to be the bad guy.....but sometimes you have to....if you are dealing with a kid who thinks they can do anything they want, any time they want. and always get away with it. It's not the "spoiling" of kids thats the problem.....it's the thinking that "NO" doesn't mean "NO"....and never taking "NO" for an answer is more the problemm I think.
Pretty basic stuff. No means no. Not wanting to be bothered as too painful...or too much work.....is, or ends up being "neglecting" to do something...what ever it is? Avoidance as a pattern.....means, neglecting or avoiding to do something don't you think keeping this really simple? And Neglect is child abuse, no matter which way you slice it? That's not procrastination or even being inconsistent......that's just plain old neglecting to do it....by avoiding it entirely....not just putting it off for later since later never comes?
J
I 100% see a link between
Submitted by dvance on
I 100% see a link between ADHD and oppositional behavior. My DH and oldest son (18) are both ADHD and very very oppositional. From what I have observed in the two of them, it seems to be a combo platter of not wanting to do anything that isn't fun, not wanting to do anything that is imposed upon them and not realizing how much they leave undone or messy. My 18 year old is like Calvin from the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon leaving a trail of mess behind him--he stays up super late and when I get up, the couch is a mess, there are usually crumbs on the coffee table and the floor, the top of the garbage can may or may not close because he crammed in whatever he ate, dishes are in the sink even when the dishwasher is empty. This happens easily 5 mornings out of 7. And every single day I remind him that I am tired of waking up to his mess, that I am not the maid, blah blah blah. He clearly does not hear me or it wouldn't keep happening. DH is not that bad but he too is very opposite. I will offer to bring him dinner when I get up to go get it and he will say no, he'll get it in a few minutes. And literally 5 minutes later he will go get his own plate. Why when I was in the kitchen literally 5 minutes ago. When I ask his opinion on things I usually get one of two answers: I don't know or I haven't thought about it. Why not have an opinion? I'm not being clear about this-it feels like passive aggressive to me which is also oppositional.
With regard to children living in your home--whatever my son leaves strewn about the house I literally toss back into his room and shut the door. I will not clean up his dishes. I do not do his laundry. The one thing that made any kind of impact is I started charging him for maid service. I literally charged him $10 for cleaning up the food he left in his room. I gave him 24 hours to get me the money or I told him I would go take it out of his account myself (I am still on his account). He did and I have not found food in his room again. Understand that I in no way think that one time solved the problem--I am certain I will have ot do it again. I really have no decent answers regarding parenting. My DH does not make the older child do anything, so that does not help. If I was going to suggest something, I might think of what your kids value-driving the car, video game time, time out with their friends-and maybe sit them down and say look, this is not a frat house, I am not a maid. When I ask you to do something, I will ask one time and I expect you to do it or you won't drive/get on the computer/go out with your friends for whatever period of time you think is impactful Please please understand-I have in no way solved my own problems, so I don't know where I get off giving you advice. My oldest is going to Costa Rica mid-September for four months and when he gets back, a few things are going to change. I have not done it this summer because I am so on edge with him that I don't know if I would be reasonable or be able to follow through AND I have to be super clear with DH about what I will and will not tolerate because he will not back me up.
I don't know if I said anything useful at all-mostly I just want you to know in my house I absolutely see a LOT of oppositional behavior in my two ADHD men and I do think there is a link, mostly the avoidance of anything that isn't fun or has immediate gratification or is easy or gives big results for minimum effort.
DVance:
Submitted by vabeachgal on
DVance:
When I ask his opinion on things I usually get one of two answers: I don't know or I haven't thought about it. Why not have an opinion? I'm not being clear about this-it feels like passive aggressive and oppositional to me.
I understand this. I hear the same exact words, especially "I haven't thought about it" and it does feel very passive aggressive to me. You don't always have to think about things in advance to have an opinion or thought about something. It's more a desire to avoid a discussion where a decision has to be made. I've noticed that it's usually about things with consequences.
edited, the rest of this is just a long whine.
Same here
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Hi vabeachgal,
I just wanted you to know I hear exactly the same words about every major decision, but small things as well. Or: I don't know, what do YOU think?
It's very weird because I usually got lots of unsolicited advice.
My SO does not seem to realize she's always shifting the responsibility scales my way. When I ask her how come she doesn't seem to have an opinion on basically anything, in response she always presents herself as a very open minded person, who can do things many ways and doesn't think there's one perfect way to solve it, so she'll agree to anything I suggest. And then she usually does, and then, sometimes months later, I hear that was not the solution she would've had proposed, if I had only asked her, or that it was a test because she wanted to see if I think the same, but it turned out I didn't, which hurt her greatly ("but I can't really force you to feel the same, can I?").
If I ask "how would you prefer to spend the next hour?" I hear "I don't know, you decide" or "I'm happy with everything you come up with" or "whatever makes you happy", or "I don't know or I haven't thought about it".
She does not see this as passive aggressive. In fact, I don't think she even grasps the concept of passive aggressive behavior. She's a great practician, but the theory somehow slips her grasp.
On several occasions, I've realized this might be a genuine fear of taking responsibility for a decision. I assume she might not be sure of her good judgement. Another theory is that her brain simply shuts down when she hears something is important and it would require her effort and focus. But it really does feel very often like she's trying to please me, even at the cost of her own needs. Or at least that's how she presents it afterwards, because she'll express her disappointment sooner or later. Or maybe it's because she doesn't have any suggestion when I ask, but some things pop into her mind later, and her brain twists the whole narrative so that it seems to her like she wasn't asked or that her reply was intentional.
It rarely seems directly oppositional. Regardless of the cause, it's very difficult living with someone who doesn't have their own opinion.
Yes, the rest of the post I
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Yes, the rest of the post I deleted was long rant about how this is a tactic to avoid responsibility or damage control after doing something that adversely affects me/us and punt all of the hard decision making to me. He verbalizes that he doesn't want me to "come back" on him later or have an avenue to complain later. Instead of making a joint decision, he uses the "I don't know" and "I haven't thought about it" to put all of the difficult decisions on me and maintain the ability to disavow any participation later or cut me short if I voice any displeasure with the decision. He WANTS to be able to say he had nothing to do with it, what's my problem, even if it's his actions that caused the difficulty to begin with.
If he creates a situation where there is a negative consequence (changed jobs and jeopardized affordable health care for me or drown us in debt), he suddenly no longer has an opinion and can't bring himself to think about it. Any decisions I make for damage control are mine alone, he will not participate - in his mind leave me any avenue for complaint is disgruntlement because the decisions are "mine." I remember one particular incident where I had to make a tough decision to do without health insurance for 9 months (not my doing) and I stood in the kitchen with him for 45 MINUTES until he would accept his responsibility and agree that it was a joint decision - he WOULD NOT accept responsibility for the decision. He didn't have any alternative to put forth but he did not want to participate in the tough decision.
I guess what I'm saying is it
Submitted by BigSurprise on
I guess what I'm saying is it might not be intentional, like a premeditated behavior. Most of us have learnt ADHD-ers are not great decision-makers, that's one. Second, it might also be learned behavior: he's conditioned to know every time he makes a decision he's responsible for the results, and that's often unpleasant. Even if he's aware of the pattern, it might not change much. You hear the bell, you salivate. You hear there's a decision, you run.
Tough, I know. It surely is tough on me.
Agreed. A lifetime of poor
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Agreed. A lifetime of poor decisions does not make one eager to participate in marital decision making. I do think it's a conditioned response rather than a deliberate one.
Yeah, it surely doesn't. Most
Submitted by BigSurprise on
Yeah, it surely doesn't. Most of us would probably withdraw ourselves, if we felt we're wrong too often. And ADHD also comes with oversensitivity to criticism. Vicious circle.
My coach has told me it has to do with the inability to predict the future. Well, I'd say 100% of us have this condition. But with the ADHD mind, it's different, because you're predisposed to make endless 'simulations'. So if I agree, then what will happen? If I disagree, what's the most likely outcome? But then, it might also start raining soon, and this could change the plan? What if I receive a phone call? They get stuck in those simulations, and it overwhelms them, paralyzing their ability to decide. And they might even find it amusing (stimulating, that is) to find out what happens when they refuse. So, he told me: be very blunt about the outcome. If you say: "I need you to do this", also inform your spouse what will happen if she doesn't. And then make sure it really happens. This way she'll no longer have to analyze all scenarios. She'll learn what you say will happen is true. She'll learn to rely on you when it comes to the outcome, but it will also relieve her of the burden of overthinking. Re-condition her.
And guess what, it works. I guess it kind of makes sense, knowing what I know about the ADHD mind.
We could really use some ADHD input here at this point. :D So... anyone? J? :)