This is what I've learned. I will start...by saying, I honestly don't hold onto anger or hold "grudges" very long. That's because I've learned to process my anger and get rid of it pretty fast. Processing is a coping mechanism. Everyone gets angry....and anger is always legitimate to the person. Having a "right" to be angry is based on you...the person angry and it's always in your "right" to be angry. Expressing your anger verbally to another person is also in your "right" to do so...but your dancing a fine line and skating on thin ice...is you can't express your anger and tell the other person "why" your angry both at the same time.
Reactive expression of anger is irrational in respect....only to the other person. It's tells them nothing except...that you're angry.... if you fail to connect what you are angry about...to what is happening now in the moment. If your angry about something that happened in the past...and don't connect it to the past and then connect it to the same thing that keeps happening but now in the present moment.....and you're expressing and voicing your anger to them about what they just did now in the present time;...there (can be) a complete loss of context for the listener...unless you can communicate that to them now...in the present moment.
In other words....if you are holding onto the anger from the past and you remain angry about it continuously, chronically, and it never gets resolved....you are holding a grudge. You got a"bone" to pick....a "chip" on your shoulder....and that anger never truly goes away. It's just there until the next time...and gets added onto what is already there underneath (that you may not even be aware of yourself) by the other person throwing salt in the wound each time they do the same thing again...but now in the future.
But on the part of the other person.....they only know what they did right now this very minute. Stop right there.
If a person is in denial of their "anger". Repeat....denial of their "anger"... and they don't realize they are just angry all the time but have gotten so use to being angry all the time and they are just carrying it around with them constantly... YOU the listener, will have no idea what they are angry about unless they tell you exactly what it is that is making them so angry about in an on going basis...specifically.
If both people are in denial of their own anger..... and both are holding onto past anger and don't realize what lurking below....that is...this unresolved anger that's just waiting for the shoe to drop and for the other person to do what they the next time....this I see as a problem. It doesn't matter the reasons "why"....it only matters that this unresolved anger "exits" in the first place. It could be from your childhood. It could be from your job or other times or events in your life.....and it could be from the anger you feel in your marriage and everything in between?
Coping...is the ability to resolve and process anger and get rid of it....now...or very shortly after.
Inability to "cope" causes holding onto anger and it never really goes away. If this is the case your marriage I feel....this is what I'm calling "The Permanent Grudge". Any anger from the past that you are still angry about...now...in the future......is irrational anger since it's not in context to what is happening now...in the present time since it makes no sense...in context...to what is happening now.
A person who is not connecting their past anger...to what is happening now (who can't remember what it was that they were angry about before ....or what someone else was angry with them about) is not going to understand you when you are angry with them now in the present moment....since the past event does not exist in their memory of it. It's blocked either from being in denial of what they do makes you angry. Not present in their working memory of the past. Haven't learned yet....why you are angry with them...or has no idea what they are angry about in reality. Reality being...in the "now"
If I think about this.....there is only the present moment when you are speaking to someone live. There is no past involved...right now at the present moment... as the sound is coming from your voice and reaching another persons ears.
That right there...is the problem with being in a state of "Permanent Grudge" and just holing onto past anger and expressing it now at the present time. The person on the receiving end of this...will have no idea what you are angry about unless you can tell them...and connect the past to the present moment. Literally....every time you express anger at all...now...... to the person standing in front you.
Of course....if that person is in denial or YOUR anger....they can't hear you....don't understand why your angry ...and can't connect what you are angry about right now in the moment and will just get defensive with you. Defensiveness...is a defense mechanism from a lacking in ability to cope and resolve anger and emotions to past events or even in the present for that matter.
OR....
IF...YOU are in denial of your own anger...and YOU aren't communicating what YOU are angry about to that other person right now in the moment...and assuming they understand YOU...by simply just reacting emotionally and irrationally and not speaking in plain English what you are angry about.... why you are angry....... and what your anger is all about this very minute in the moment since that's when you are expressing it to them. IF it's YOU who's doing this. Then you're the one in denial of your own anger. At least this is what I believe is actually true
Anytime you hear someone being defensive....they aren't listening and hearing you. They are effectively....blocking everything your saying...and throwing it right out the window as fast as you say it to them since what they are angry about has nothing to do with them as they see and it's all you who's angry and they have done nothing wrong.
If you are assuming they hear you...and they can't even remember what you said before....then you aren't getting, that they didn't hear you in the first place (in the past) and they have no memory or context and the ability to connect.... to what is actually happening now (no context or referencing ability) every single time you keep getting angry about the same thing. 1 time....or 100 times. It will make no difference. Your anger is not getting heard, understood or even remembered if they are in denial and being defensive. If you assume any of this and not realize this...you will be assuming wrong.
As I just tried to describe this. This is a person in denial. They aren't going to know what you are talking about...unless you make it clear to them each and every time you say the same thing because what you said in the past....never really happened. Not technically true..but functionally yes.
What I see here on this forum mostly when it comes to anger on either side? You've been with this person so long...and these things have been unresolved for so long ... that both people are ina "Permanent Grudge" and both people are doing exactly the same thing with each other...and no one is either learning, coping, processing or resolving the anger from the past and it just all "chronic" anger and completely irrational.
If that's the case and one person is just reacting with reactionary anger...blowing up without warning and just spewing it everywhere. They don't even know why they're angry....they're just angry...and expressing it while you are in the room with them. Nothing they say will be able to be connected to what they are really angry about...yet they will think it's you who caused it since you just hit that button and 'POP...out comes (the same past anger) that is lurking there just waiting for you to hit that button and out comes that same anger on top of what you just did to trigger it again and again every time you do it. It won't make sense to you. They will say all kinds of crazy things and accuse you of kind of crazy stuff you didn't do...except for possibly the "ONE" thing that you did do right now...but with it comes the rest of it and that's all just crazy irrational past anger resurfacing again.
If I'm not mistaken....this is called operant conditioning. It happens over time. The longer you are conditioned to it....the harder you will be able to see yourself doing it. And if both people have conditioned each other this way. Both people are doing it...both are not coping....both are not resolving...and both are going to appear irrational to each other and no one is hearing or listening to each others anger......in the moment....and no one is actually understanding what the other person is really angry about.
Unless you can get completely rid of all your past anger entirely...and bring it forward into the "NOW" moment...there is a very high chance...your doing this. I can tell you from this experience personally doing this very thing myself...and........ being on the receiving end of it as well. You may think you know why your angry....but your not...at least not right now in the moment...if you can't connect the past anger...to the present anger....and know exactly "why" you are angry. Only you know 'why"....no one else will ever know if you can't identify it and speak it into words that anyone can understand without having to "guess"...what's up your butt. IMHO
I hear the words......"crazy making" used here on this forum in referencing this very thing. This is what's "crazy making"....spoken in words I hope everyone can understand?
I think getting right down to it....this is what is actually happening with my wife. She is angry about something in the past long before she met me....but she has no idea what she is really angry about and can't tell me why? Only she knows the "why". If she can't tell me "why" specifically....I will never truly understand when she just reacts...and spews anger all over the place like a machine gun out of context....and can't speak in terms "in the now"...and say so in plain English...even if it's spoken in anger so I can understand it? I might have done something to trigger this anger....but this anger has nothing to do with me. I know this because she can't say what it is I did to make her angry...or when she does....it makes absolutely no sense to me. She will use excuses and accuse me of thing related to what I DID actually do....but her anger is out of context and she can relate what it is that is really upsetting her and why? If she could do that....i would understand her? I'm not defensive..don't get over emotional...and even if my feelings are hurt or I'm angry....I can....not react....not just spew....think about it....keep my mouth shut....and come back later to talk a bout it. I can do this. My wife cannot. I have a very long fuse...and I can take a lot of hits....before I reach the point where I am acting out of control and just reacting myself. You will rarely see....reactionary...blowing up....without of lot of speaking rationally and objectively and then with plenty of warning ahead of time. What makes me react or lose control....is when someone is rabid and coming at me and being completely irrational and not making sense...but at the same time...getting up im my face......and closing in on me. I finally got to a place.....where even that won't do it anymore with my wife as it did before. I'm not doing anything or reacting much all....but I do get tired of having someone throw what I say back in my face...and refusing to have an open discussion about why they're angry with me. I don't just blow up at my wife....but I do get angry with her for doing that chronically and repeatedly over and over with my best foot put forward and having my guard down in my attempt to "talk with this". That pisses me off....;but I in control of my anger over this now. I never discount the effect my ADHD has on her....but that's no excuse for her just to "REACT" in anger...and not hold "her mud" the same as I do in the same situation. I'm a good "mud holder"....that's all I'm saying. LOL
Using terms here to reinforce what I'm saying. If you have a bad day...and it's all built up and you aren't coping.....you might come home and kick the dog out of frustration just to release it since you're out of the ability to cope anymore. But shortly after...you realize why you kicked the dog once you had a chance to get past it and calm down.
But in the same context....if you've had a bad life....and your kicking the dog everyday....the you are in a state of "Permanent Grudge" because you "stuck" somewhere in time and still bring that same past anger along with you into the present time...since that past anger never really went away, never got resolved and you don't even realize this is what your doing...because your still anger about the same thing. If it happens again...or happens repeatedly over and over (the thing that makes you angry)....then your doing this....and it's you who needs to find a way to get rid of the past anger since is exactly what will happen when you don't and will appear irrational...and not making any sense to the other person hearing you express it if you think this is going to work and make them understand?
This kind of denial....is denial of your own anger if this is what is happening with you. I do believe this to be true and this it what I believe I've learned from this experience myself and how I came up with the term...."Permanent Grudge." It's a chronic state of mind that will never go away...unless you really know...what you are angry about and why? It will come out of you...in untold ways....the person you are with...will have no idea what you are REALLY angry about....that is....in the moment when are trying to express it to them.
Just my opinion....from observation and my own personal experience with it...and speaking objectively. For what it's worth.
J
Perpetual Dysfunction...
Submitted by c ur self on
(What I see here on this forum mostly when it comes to anger on either side? You've been with this person so long...and these things have been unresolved for so long ... that both people are ina "Permanent Grudge" and both people are doing exactly the same thing with each other...and no one is either learning, coping, processing or resolving the anger from the past and it just all "chronic" anger and completely irrational. If that's the case and one person is just reacting with reactionary anger...blowing up without warning and just spewing it everywhere. They don't even know why they're angry....they're just angry...and expressing it while you are in the room with them. Nothing they say will be able to be connected to what they are really angry about...yet they will think it's you who caused it since you just hit that button and 'POP...out comes (the same past anger) that is lurking there just waiting for you to hit that button and out comes that same anger on top of what you just did to trigger it again and again every time you do it. It won't make sense to you. They will say all kinds of crazy things and accuse you of kind of crazy stuff you didn't do...except for possibly the "ONE" thing that you did do right now...but with it comes the rest of it and that's all just crazy irrational past anger resurfacing again. If I'm not mistaken....this is called operant conditioning. It happens over time. The longer you are conditioned to it....the harder you will be able to see yourself doing it. And if both people have conditioned each other this way. Both people are doing it...both are not coping....both are not resolving...and both are going to appear irrational to each other and no one is hearing or listening to each others anger......in the moment....and no one is actually understanding what the other person is really angry about.)
This sums it up pretty good J....In my case; this type behavior (anger) stems from the deep hurt that over the years has evolved from the inability to communicate...And the reason for the failure is because of what I was trying to communicate....It seemed to me many times I was only asking for some help w/ what I viewed as things that should be shared responsibilities. Or maybe I was making a point about things that seemed to be missing in the relationship. What was being heard must have been things like.... I need you to change your priorities in life (your broke) to what I say they should be....
When two people get married that live with such different values; and view life from lens that are completely foreign to one another; then start force feeding each other their views (placing expectations) you have a perfect breeding ground for Anger & defensiveness...Which like you said; becomes chronic; because it can surface so quickly when it's never gone to begin with.... Failure is expected....
Words don't cause these problems; and words want fix them either....Acceptance of reality and Self -awareness will at least offer an individual a chance to see the need to walk away when these permanent grudges as you call them (and that's what they are) are present....
Somebody has to change for communication to exist.......An action has to take place....1) Change; Stop placing expectations 2) Leave....Telling a person daily they ain't cuttin it....Is not the answer!!!
C
Operant Conditioning.....
Submitted by c ur self on
This principle that states what you reinforce is likely to happen again and even often....And what you do not reinforce is more likely to not happen or happen less often....With our adolescent children we mold them with this principle....Simply stated...Approval vs Punishment.....With in the realm of marriage (two adults vowed to be one; forsaking all others) where respect must be given. (without respect anything else we do are say is useless, and is only manipulation and control) All you have left is healthy and respectful actions and reactions as our teaching tool....
Verbal dialog is OK, if the ability to communicate (listen for understanding, respond w/ kindness) is present....But, if defensiveness or denial is present, which is usually the case....And which seems to be the point you are making here, you are beginning a conversation that has a 90% failure rate to begin with in my humble opinion....This percentage is based on my own experience's....
So back to healthy reactions....Most reactions are not healthy, that's why this forum exists in part....But, when a marriage is suffering for intimacy; this one tool is where our hope should be placed. This one tool is just about you.....You and you alone can control what comes out of you....Healthy reactions! or unhealthy reactions, that only lead to what J has described...Chronic Dysfunction!
I can't tell you what should be your response; but, some things seem simple enough....If you are being abused by your spouse; you (in my opinion) should separate yourself from the abuser....
If you just can't seem to get on the same page when it comes to life and responsibility....some times counselors can help shed light on what is a miss....
I do know this; it takes Self-awareness, and humility for c ur self to come to the place that any response's (actions) I have are healthy. The hardest thing for me is having to face the reality of my situation...Knowing that most verbal attempts no matter how kind my intentions are, in most cases will be meet w/ a defensive mind; due to denial. So I must understand that tool; isn't available....It's not a healthy action; or reaction in most cases.....
So if verbal dialog is so limited; you might be thinking where do we go from here? I must start w/ Acceptance of this reality in my relationship to view it from a proper and healthy vantage point....If not, it is so easy to start seeking way's to manipulate (and we most always will make excuses for ourselves; our denial) our partner into being or becoming "our view of what a healthy and responsible adult partner should be".....(That is not our job, and never will be, it's control, and it's never ending, if you dive off into it...) Once I discipline myself (seek humility) to understand that for anything healthy to be the reality of our marriage, it will only come about through the channel of respect, kindness, and acceptance of reality....
Swapping a victim mind for one of thankfulness...Is the right path, even if that path has us living mostly alone.....
And I'm never alone.....
Blessings
C
I believe that the union of
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I believe that the union of marriage is a unique relationship created by God. It requires 2 people. It creates a "home" a place where there is first and foremost "love". It further offers a safe refuge in which one can refresh to step out into a world we were very much warned NOT to conform to. It offers security to all who abide there and to those who enter. It offers comfort and peace to uplift weary spirits. It offers laughter and warmth. It is an inspiration when weary meaning...yourselves and others. It is a union that says you are not walking this earthly journey alone( yes God is always with you) that you have the heart of another human being choosing to SHARE this life.
I believe the scripture...can 2 walk together unless they are agreed? is very telling. For me....I became "conflicted" at leaving the home( things already difficult there) and taking "this show on the road". I was NOT able to any longer...put on a false face.I was a fraud, a liar...a hypocrite. This was MY conviction and because I do trust my faith it raised that BIG question......but surely God wants the marriage to be a success? I am wrong wrong wrong to call it done..I am a failure in his eyes.....blah blah blah
There is another scripture that says....where it depends on you be at peace with another. It does not say.....stay and put up with chaos and forget about ANY of your needs. We get caught up in honoring "institutions" and forget.....God is about the living breathing soul. God will look out for my H...I am not a martyr to a marriage that that is a false representation of God's design.
I also believe that the 2 become 1 means ...a united spirit that has power to do great things. We are NOT united for God....when we are focused on trying to make a marriage work....for years and years and years.
I have come to realize....letting this marriage end is just one of many acts that have happened in my life ......that speak of my humanity(imperfection) and it won't be the last. God loves me...He loves H....He loves c....and He loves c's wife.
Zapp....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I believe that the union of marriage is a unique relationship created by God. It requires 2 people. It creates a "home" a place where there is first and foremost "love".)
This is a statement I agree w/ Zapp; But, what does it take for this to happen?
Considering we all are fleshly humans; and are locked into our own individual minds, that are incapable on there own of creating or producing this LOVE you speak about, where does it come from?
There is only one place humans can receive the ability to be Disillusioned...To be disillusioned means there will be no more false judgments in life. As humans we slip off into illusions about life; marriage and one another....We become cynical and unkindly judgmental of others...Because we can't get past our unrealistic expectations; we so easily place on the flesh...Jesus did not do this; He knew what was inside man....So he had no illusions or trust in man. He knows that any relationship not based on loyalty to himself will end in disaster...So this is where we get this Love you speak of....A love he gives us; even though he knows us...Grace!
This is verse's 5-7 of Psalm 62....It is a great pray and reminder for me of whom I trust. My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.
He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defense; I shall not be moved.
In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.
I in no wise suggest you stay in the bounds of a unhealthy relationship...I respect your faith and your patient endurance....
Blessings this fine day!
C
Thinking About What You Said... C
Submitted by kellyj on
What is shared and what is not shared in a marriage?
What is possible to share: Values, beliefs, goals, spirit. Spirit can be part of a belief system...or spirit can be said...."in the spirit of....." Either way?
What is not possible to share: Feelings, emotions, faith and what you want personally.
There....that simplifies things doesn't it? As I think about this.....what "you" want...is not the same as values and can't be shared with anyone since....they're personal. Beliefs can be shared in respect to a belief system that you believe in....but faith is something you have that is your own. You can't share "Faith"...unless you apply "faith" into a belief system. A "belief system" of the same "faith" can be recognized as the same one with someone else.... since this exists outside of yourself.....but faith in itself exists as a personal belief and is either something you have or you don't have that is your own and lives solely inside of you.....just like Love. Those are personal, and can't be shared in the physical sense. They're both tied to feelings and emotions again...which cannot be shared with another human being?
All that is possible....is to recognize them as being the same with another human being. That is..... in the reality that we "Live" in....right now this very moment.
I know I've confused those before...and I think that's where assumptions come from and how they get misconstrued?
Two may be one in spirit (only).....but it's not possible to join your brain, your feelings or your emotions and what "you" want, or what "you" personally believe (as an opinion) personally with another human being. It's simply not possible ( in the reality that we live in ) but I think....sometimes we forget that and think it is?
J
Yes u r right in the sense you are describing J
Submitted by c ur self on
Two being one flesh is about the joining together w/o sin...And not just sex, but in many other things we do share....It's God's gift to Men and Women....He know's our weaknesses, and he wants us to have a way to live in this flesh holy, and experience the wonders he created for us in marriage....I totally agree w/ you about our difference's....We don't loose our individualism has separate human beings.....
C
J, anger passive aggressive
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Anger is a VERY important thing in this whole mix, regardless of what form it takes. There is one running theme in most of the posts in these entire forums is the ADHD person having an exceptional amount of anger. And, my husband is no exception. He is known by most everyone for being an angry person, and he really gets angry when anyone points this out. "I AM NOT ANGRY" he will say, angrily. (Sigh) His students have been afraid to approach him because he LOOKS angry. In which he says in denial, "I dont know WHY they think that". This has happened throughout many years, different states, and different schools. SO,there HAS to be a common denominator................HIM.
He also was one for holding grudges himself, which I KNOW adds to the whole "anger effect". I've never been successful in helping him see this or admit he has an anger problem, so I quit trying. Nothing changed, and its still the same. Most people we know say he is not an approachable person. Why would anyone want to be known as THAT kind of person, and then stay in denial because people arent warming up to you? Self defense mechanism? Stupidity? Or anger once again rearing its ugly head saying, "I dont want to change for anyone, even ME". Denial.
I have a theory I've always told my girls, "If it always seems like the problem is everyone ELSE, it 's probably YOU." Of course, like everything, its not 100 percent, but its pretty accurate.
But, the topic of grudges is a very difficult thing. Its difficult to maintain a close relationship with anyone who holds grudges, because you're not sure if the next grudge is going to come your way. Hence, walking on eggshells.
My husband is a guy with a great sense of humor, but he gets carried away with sarcasm. Sometimes its been pretty hurtful, with the mean spirited sarcastic comments, and if we say anything, he says,"Geez, I cant even use humor, I cant do anything". When the humor is anger veiled in a sarcastic remark, it ceases to be funny, and then only becomes demeaning to the person its aimed at.
Yep....So True CBT ....Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
I know for myself.....where and why as far as passive aggression is concerned. It comes from not being able to express your emotions. As a kid, being treated unfairly or being wrongfully accused of things because of my ADHD....really pissed me off!!! lol But no one knew and then was then....and then is NOT now!!!!
As a kid....I acted this out passive aggressively. Was I wrong back then? No....absolutely not. I WAS treated unfairly and wrongfully accused of things since no one understood ADHD...and my parents expecting me to be just like everone else and hold me accountable with the same "expectations" which was not fair. Totally not fair. I could not do what everyone else did my age but the expectation of me was....that I could. But I couldn't. To the best of my ability I couldn't because I did not possess in my power to do what everyone my age could do.....and then I was punished for it when I couldn't do what was even possible in the first place? This was totally unreasonable and unfair and it made me angry. And so I took that anger...and expressed it a different way.....usually underhanded and in secret.....since, this unfair treatment I received and how I saw it...was underhanded along with the punishment I received. This was hitting below the belt. Like holding someone down...while someone else kicks you? This made me angry at the time.
But that was then...and this is now. I can't be angry about that now since that was in the past...and the past is long gone.
But this is where it comes from. It you can't connect the past to the present...and realize this as I said....you'll still be acting passive aggressive....now.....for what happened then.
It's that simple. Unless your in denial. If a person is in denial and can't connect the past to the present....that past anger will still be there and everything that comes from it will continue on indefinitely until you connect the past to the present....and then resolve what didn't get resolved in the past.
This is what CBT....cognitive "BEHAVIORAL" therapy does for you. It does nothing for ADHD.
J
The ADHD...Permanent Pardox of Anger
Submitted by kellyj on
Dede,
Before I forget.....theres something I've know for a very long time but haven't shared here exactly. Conected to the passive aggression (anger) or regular anger that everyone has about things every day. In relationship to anger...and the "permanent grudge" as I was calling it....there is also a permanent "fixture" that comes with having ADHD even now as an adult and will continue for until we die. The reason for this is the same as it was when we were growing up and it really does have to do with the same thing I lived through when no one knew about ADHD back in the day.( or very few if any ).
As I just went through the same thing with my wife at this time....even after doing everything I could to stem this off so it wouldn't happen again....sure enough....it happened again. And it will keep happening everyday or to a lessor degree....consistently since there is no cure for ADHD. The best of my ability...will still not prevent other people picking up certain signs or things (little ones) that will tell them the wrong thing....and they still will apply what everyone applies to it....and mistake it for something else. This will always happen...and it will never go away. Never. To the best of my ability....I will never be able to fully eliminate all the symptoms no matter where I go or who I am with. Even if I can do this 90% of the time where no one would notice....there's always one in the crowd who will. And that person is going to call you out on it thinking it's something else. It goes with the territory and there's no two ways around it.......or even one way around it. ADHD exist and it always will for the person who has it.
You can accept this....or be angry about it....but you always have a choice.
J
J, it has to be harder at times
Submitted by dedelight4 on
It has to be even harder, now that you know even more, and because you are working SO hard to understand and be up front about your adhd. J, I think you are pretty great for doing what you are doing in all your searching, and also telling US about it. Huge thanks for that. I dont ever want to hurt you by what I mention about my husband. I dont want you to think I'm implying the same about you, because I'm not. I say things here, like you, out of my own experience, and do not want to paint with a broad verbal brush.
"Be Impeccable In Your Words"....Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
Dede,
I appreciate what you said to me here....not just now but for the entire time I spent here....pouring myself into what I'm written in my attempt to expose myself and make myself vulnerable. The video that my wife had watched at work with her staff in a meeting they had together, and brought home with her from work (as a Social Worker ) of Brene' Brown speaking about vulnerability being the key to empathy really reached me and struck something inside me I will never forget. Her words have stayed with me since the moment I heard them because I immediately recognized that they were the truth. She really was my hero at the time because she exposed something inside me that I knew myself but realized I was not doing this myself.....at the time....or any time in my entire life. I realized that my voice had been taken away from me when I was growing up...and never was able to articulate what I truly felt out of fear. That same fear that was instilled in me...that prevented me from learning how to speak impeccably with my words. I knew that also immediately at the time...and I could quickly forgive myself for not having this ability..... or ever even been given the opportunity before and I can extend that to you...or anyone who comes here and have done that to the best of my ability also in saying exactly the same things to you. We are all doing our best....and I have tried to use that filter in everything I've read coming from anyone...not matter said in anger, anguish, frustration or even ignorance at times. "Ignorance" takes on such a negative connotation (as a word by itself)....because we've all used that word to describe someone as being "stupid" in context.
Being ignorant is never stupid.....it's simply "not knowing" something....and we all don't know things everyday and we all speak from a place of not knowing and this is when we say things that might hurt others or are offensive to them even when we try our very best for that not to happen.
Exposing yourself and making your self vulnerable I found is the most difficult thing I might have ever done. All the shame and fear that I felt came right up from where ever it was that it was hiding and allowed me to see it...and see the source from which it came from by simply saying the same words I might have been feeling....but never, ever actually say them to my wife or anyone else in truth...and in reality or speaking to anyone except to myself....privately or secretly.
When I first....literally stumbled across this website and this forum....I came here for a specific reason and that was not initially to gain support or to to give support.... or had anything in mind but to find the source of my anger and the only way that I found that could happen....was to hear it said to me coming from the other side of the tracks and this included my wife. What I heard coming from her was not telling me what I needed in order to do this because of her personal bias and lack of objectivity so the feedback I got from her really told me nothing new or nothing I had not ever heard before when someone spoke directly to me live and in person. All I knew....that what she was saying....had been said before in many different ways by other people in my life...and I knew there was something within her words I needed to hear...but she could not say and I recognized that much at the very least right from the beginning.
So I came hear to listen and hear what was being said and I was ready to her it.....no matter which form it came in. But now....I wanted to say something back...and found myself in the same position my wife was in and not knowing the words or how to say it...and I was afraid of saying the wrong things due to my lacking in this area as I said. I knew this...before I ever said anything and I was at first....very afraid to speak out or speak up because of my liabilities in this area because I knew I was eventually going to say the wrong thing and someone would be offended if I really said what I was thinking at times...but afraid to actually say it. There's always safety in numbers and easy to hide behind others and use them as a shield to protect ourselves from shame and exposure in fear of taking the risk of becoming vulnerable.( the worst thing you can do right?).
So when I heard Brene' Brown speak about this and say what she said.....I felt her words and the shame that I felt,...and knew she was right in saying that fear is really the source because I felt the fear as I reflected on her words.
I really did come here with some really good tools in my tool box already....but in many ways, they had been sitting idle just waiting for the opportunity to use them. My personal "test of fire"....came when I saw the opportunity waiting for me here...and now I had a chance to really put them to work but that fear was something that I needed to address and meet head on before I could even apply them in the first place.
I became tired of chasing the dragons tale for my entire life...and I was fed up with doing that and I was not longer afraid to stop doing that anymore. It really is a battle and a fight that we have insides ourselves not with other people...and my therapist had brought me to this and made me see that a long time ago.
This was part of the process of getting out of denial myself and I had some practice at doing this with him privately...but never really applying it in a way where everyone (the world) could sit and eves drop and listen in without being terrified of actually running into one of these people...who might actually recognize me!!! lol..... and know me intimately enough by meeting me face to face and know...."I" was the one who said all these crazy, profane and offensive things that were lurking beneath what I would not normally say otherwise. (which is actually the truth....I generally speaking...use a lot more decorum than I have at times here lol...a lot more actually......but that would be defeating the point of doing this for me if I could not speak openly and honestly to myself and try and hide my anger, my fears and all my flaws and expose them to myself ....and then becoming more vulnerable to myself....first and foremost and the entire point in doing this at all? That is....so "I" could see...along with everyone else which is exactly the reason to do it at all. That is....to find "my" shame.....not my wife's or anyone else's....who's attempts to do that with me I have long since gotten over or have gotten use to and that almost never bothers me any more. You or anyone else....can't really hurt my feelings...the only one who can do that to me is "me".
What I have discovered how ever, is not something I wasn't aware of already...and that's just not liking it all that much and getting really tired of people doing that with me for what ever reason (their own of course)....but that doesn't change the fact that it gets tiresome and old and it does actually piss me off at times even for a brief flash or moment of anger which everyone has....everyday...over little piss ant innocuous stuff that is irritating all the time.
It does get old...and you never really get use to it....but as I see "it"...."anger"..."shame"..."fear"....and negative emotions are all there for a reason and that's to tell us what to do. If we didn't have these things present everyday.....we'd all be chickens with our heads cut off and bumping into each other as blind as we could be without them working there to show us the direction we need to go in our daily lives. That includes me of course and I am no different than all human beings who fail to do this at times...or .....do it very well?
Dede....just so you know what I came here with that has helped me the most in my daily life already that I had some practice with to the point that I do it almost automatically. One of those good habits that I learned and have put to work already.
The Four Agreements (Miguel Ruiz) I made the commitment to try these many years ago and I spent a great deal of time incorporating them enough to remember them on a daily basis. Not that I always do...but I know them by heart and the reasons he explained why they work so well in his book that he wrote with the title of the same name.
1) "Always do Your Best." Only you know what your best is...and no one can tell you rate or judge you on your performance if you are being honest and truthful with yourself an apply this one to your daily life. Shame of course is the necessary emotion to tell you if your doing this well or not.
This one was the easiest one for me...since I learned to do this along time ago everyday at swim practice. That one was a piece of cake and easy for me to rate myself in this way and apply to anything else. Pushing myself....has never been a problem for me:)
2) "Don't Take Things Personally". Not a hard one to figure out as being good advise for everyone. Not always easy to do.....but easy to understand.
3) "Don't Make Assumptions." Not so easy....and not always easy to see when you do.
4) "Be Impeccable in Your Words" As Miguel Ruiz stated up front.....this is the hardest one you will ever attempt to do. As I have come to realize myself.....I may never truly succeed in accomplishing this one...but I will continue to try and apply this agreement to my daily life anyway. But as he explained in his book on this and the reasons for it....and that we'll never truly be perfect and always do these things all the time. The point is to try...and make an attempt and become better at doing them and but never truly succeeding.
As I've come to understand......this is just the bar that you see for yourself...and number one (always do your best) allows yourself the grace and forgiveness in not succeeding yet not give up trying and know you done the best you could as long as it is your best. There is not a day goes by that I don't see the room for improvement...but in doing my best....I can see the failure and that gives me the incentive to try even harder next time...each time I fail. I will never need anyone to motivate me....if I use this as my means to do so. Shame is necessary.....but fear will prevent this from happening.
Along with the 4 agreements in my tool box already....my hammer and universal tool is the Golden Rule. This one has been there for my entire life and is simplest and easiest one for me to apply to everything along with these four agreements. No matter what I do or where I go....I can apply this to anything and never be wrong.
The thing is Dede.....I learned a very very long time ago ( as a child in my home situation)....that people like an "Idiot." It makes them feel safe and comfortable...when they have an Idiot there to compare themselves to. I learned a long time ago to say I'm an Idiot...and I have no problem admitting that to anyone openly. That doesn't mean I think I'm an Idiot myself ( far from it ).....so what does it matter to say that you are and admit when you screw up and be an Idiot if that's what people need you to be. The recent comment made by my therapist about "giving people what they want"....was simply saying this in others words. Don't fight it...go with it...but believe in yourself....not what anyone else tells you your are.
But having said that....I have failed at giving people what they want....only in not in being ignorant to this fact and not knowing better ways to do this myself. Going right back to the 4 agreements again...and doing my best on any given day....knowing my best will be different depending on many things and I never really will fail at doing anything...as long as fear of failure and rejection don't get in the way.
I think for myself and what I did that long ago as a child....is to use being an "Idiot" as a way of survival and not allowing fear of refection and the hurt you feel from it stand in my way of my own progress. It is one method for sure and works without a lot of negativity...but the danger is to begin to start to believe it when you are not strong enough to do that anymore. It's not a bad adaptive strategy when appropriate and it can be fun and amusing to play the Idiot and be the comedian in all good ways. It is one of my best qualities and I have no reason to be different.
But as you were pointing out about your husband and that I see in myself at times in what you were saying about sarcasm and satire....it can be rather pointed and sharp and not always the best tool to use. Especially when you only have that one "sharp" one in your tool box...along with all those pointy corners that can rile people up and be hurtful if your not really careful.
And just so you know in light of what I've said here. I did not take on to myself the qualities that you described in your husband and only the felt the shame that I knew there was mine. I am to look at....for the most part in my daily life.....not an irritable grouch....with a scowl on my face all the time who goes around complaining and showing this that side of me even if I feel it sometimes.
To my own detriment....I learned the wrong lessons that my own mother taught me ...and that was to put a "bow on everything and call it good" and present this outwardly...and only be "nice". To my detriment and this was my mothers own failing that never really was mine ever....was this concept of never showing your angry...which for me....was always kind of Bullshit as I saw it? lol I had not need not to show anger the same as her...and she did her best to try and teach me to be "nice"...instead of teaching me how to be angry. Little girls are made from sugar and spice and everything nice.....not little boys!!! ( God Damn it...LOL ) I had not problem not being nice...all things said and done....but at home....I had to be or I would upset the cart and rock the boat. Part of my inability to have a better mid range...comes from that experience and is not all emotional lability and I clearly see the difference in myself.
But thing about putting a "bow on everything"...and appearing like you are always "Nice" only with women...and the other time...going the other way (being myself with men) really gets in the way of being appropriately angry or even upset....and having to be too "Nice" about it. If you've only got these two choices and means to express even normal everyday anger (not out of control and not emotionally libel )....it doesn't give you that mid range or any practice at doing it when it comes to women...and expressing your anger or disapproval over anything...if you have to be "Nice" about it....and never hurt anyones feelings. That all or nothing thing...is not all ADHD.
Quick short story...and then I'm going to end this here....
When I move home for only year after college before getting my own place again. I moved home to my father being retired (and dying from emphysema from years of smoking ) and my mother having to deal with him home everyday and to wait on him a lot because of his inability to get up or move around much. I had become so use to....not being "Nice" all the time and putting on a fake front at home...that this was getting old really fast and I was growing increasing irritated with having to pretend again. lol
I was in the kitchen one time and trying to express my anger (actually doing it well and comfortably with a good mid range to go along with it) and my mother immediately started correcting me again...and not listening to a word I was saying to her. The more I tried to tell her I was angry (even nicely) the more she rejected it and tried to make me pretend I was "Nice". errrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
I was right in the middle of making some food for myself and this was coming to a head. (emotional lability kicking in )...after a number of repeated attempts to tell my mother why I was angry or just upset actually...and not being heard....This just suddenly erupted with me actually ripping the entire refrigerator door right off the hinges and everything in the door just falling on the floor with me standing there holding the fridge door handle in my hand but actually not even saying anything or raising my voice. (par for the course...but I usually waited and went outside and screamed of broke things when no one was looking lol ) funny now when I sit and recall this story because it really was pretty funny if I stop and look at it.
My mother did her usual....just starring at me in dismay and my father actually heard this and got up to come see what all the noise was about. He walks in and looks at the door in my hand with all the jars of condiments and stuff all over the floor.... and me just fuming and not saying anything.....and he goes "I hope you know how to fix that door....I'm not buying a new one." and turns and walks back to the bedroom and just leaves my mother and I standing there. LOL!!!!!!!
There is some truth in what NowOrNever was saying about the "ON" ..."OFF" component of my anger being emotional lability that I need to keep an eye on since that was a new discovery I made here on this forum. But even under control of my anger and when things are not highly charged....it stills feels uncomfortable to me at times, not being anything but the "Idiot" with a smile on my face and who always has to be "Nice" even done with intention and awareness and not necessarily from having less control of my emotions.
This whole concept that my mother was preaching is soooooo much Bullshit!!! I've heard it here repeatedly in the way in which women are taught to be. Always be "Nice" with a smile on your face. Bullshit!!! That comes from what women are taught how to be which is a way of teaching you to be dishonest about the way you really feel. In my repeatedly attempts to be honest with my mother and just tell her that I was upset about something she was doing....only lead to her immediately trying to put that bow on it again ...and make everything good.
Everything wasn't GOOD. And I didn't feel like being "Nice"..what I felt like was that my emotions were being dismissed and not being heard even WHEN I was doing it appropriately. My mother was in denial...and putting on a false front....and this was same false front that I saw and rejected for most of my entire life time which I was what I was made scapegoat for. I may have ripped the fridge door off the hinges due to my ADHD....but I had a good reason for being angry in the first place....and not pretending to be "Nice" wasn't the problem.
This concept that women are taught (my sisters included) that says you're suppose to always be "Nice" and put a bow or everything and call it "good" is the very thing that I was angry about. It's disingunious.and not real and actually very disrespectful. Not being allowed to have emotions other than "good " ones...is ridiculously absurd amd goes against what it is..to actually be human. It did come from men along with the history of why that is behind it....but that leaves a "man" like me....having to take responsibility for something that I didn't do or had any part in. I actually hated this from the time I was a little boy...and never....did I not see this or was aware of it's existance. I can't say this is true for all men for sure....but for me and the ones who are like me from the sound of it....have to put up with this non sense that keeps getting perpetuated by those "men" who are still buying into to this from the sound of it. It's absolute rubbish as far as I'm concerned and as I recalled my story with my mom and the refrigerator door.....this was what I most angry about and not what ever it was in the moment that was actually upsetting me.
It's also the reason why I would sit in church and look at the hypocrisy that I saw...and could see the seeds of where it was coming from and I wanted no part of that and made it a point not to be that way myself.
Look at what this does to people Dede. The men who have bought into this thinking are angry and sour. And the women who have bought into this thinking are bitter and spiteful. And all because you are told to be this way and no one is listening.
I will give myself credit here where credit is due. I never bought in to this non sense and only played along because I had to....what is at the heart of my anger in reality....is having to pretend and then being accused and being scapegoat because of it. Horse shit!!! lol I'm not angry at anyone who had this taught to them as their way of being....I've tried my best not to be this way my entire life...and only found that I was the odd man out because it and remained guilty as charged. I've been highly perceptive and aware of this my entire life...so I never take offense really at being accused of it anymore. But when it comes to my wife and the only woman I'm in Love with and care about as special.....she needs to hear me and listen..and not to this very thing with me. I am the odd man out in some ways because it....but I also need not to be angry about "IT"....since this is "IT" as far as I'm concerned. I am kind of big picture guy and I think that was my calling...so for what ever reason I'm not with a big picture person (no right or wrong here....just different )....I need to be able to be more of trees than a forest person...and learn to do a better job of being sensitive to that. If I have failed any way to be sensitive...it;s being sensitive to what is wrong not what is right.
J
J, it has to be harder at times
Submitted by dedelight4 on
IT copied twice. Working on a tablet and its frustrating.
Hi Dede...
Submitted by c ur self on
I can I D w/ your husband...This robe of flesh just piles up stuff; stuff we may be blind to for the most part....If you add up our pride, our nurture, and our painful experience's after adult hood....You can get a mess....All of us!
My first wife (30 year marriage) was very passive, and I was not so much...It was much to do w/ how we were raised....So when it was time to correct the girls I had it all to do...It wasn't the ideal situation....Because I was this HSP w/ convictions that children should obey, and if not there should be consequence's to follow...First off it crushed me inside to discipline my children; and my wife's seemingly stressful panic didn't make it any easier on me....
This is just one story about how we are molded...I don't know your husband of course, but, I know it is very hard to change when we feel we are no threat; and we are navigating life well enough....Your husband is probably focusing on the basics....He knows he only wants the best for his children and you also....He truly can't see himself in any other light....It's take a dying off to truly see ourselves; (2 Corinthians 4:11) and become students of the most painful person you will ever study...
I pray someday he will turn inward; and your rule for your children will become his....I pray that for myself also....
Blessings
C
C....This is Such a Great Thing to Hear You Say
Submitted by kellyj on
"It's take a dying off to truly see ourselves; (2 Corinthians 4:11) and become students of the most painful person you will ever study..."
Ain't it the truth...no matter who said it?
Coming from the other direction....it's difficult to let go of the fight...when you know your right...and still let go anyway.
I don't like to do things but I do them anyway. I don't like my ADHD...but that can't be the reason not to....not do what ever it is that is associated with it. If I don't do it sometimes and fail....it's only because I'm human...one with ADHD. Not doing things or not trying or making attempts is the only reason why we will ever fail.
Not doing anything....is far worse than doing the wrong thing IMHO.
In that we don't succeed....try, try again? That's my motto and I'm sticking to it. lol
J