The Bible I grew up on had quote after quote about how a woman should "obey" her husband as head of the house. Timothy and Paul especially demanded that a woman "stifle" and "submit" and be quiet because the woman was made "for" the man. THIS is one of the main reasons I have been weak and do not like myself in my marriage. I tried so hard to be a good girl and looked to the Bible for direction. Now at this age and having had the experience in marriage as I did, I have to say that those passages lined me up for failure and I must look at the Bible as a 21st Century woman and say that some things were written by Jewish/Roman/Grecian laws of the land rather than from a loving God who loves me and I must throw them out and be wary of old views that I had taken upon myself to follow. Timothy and Paul were especially insistant about a "woman's place". And I was taught as a young girl that the Bible was written by God and not to question it. I took it WAY to far and lived by every word and nuance. I think many people, women AND men are like me and it makes some of us weak and/or entitled in a bad way.
It is helpfpul for me to substitute some words in my own head to give myself permission to make judgments of situations with a healthier attitude for myself and my children. So I post the following. I would have thought this sacreligious in my youth to take liberty with the Holy Bible's writings but I have memorized so many things that were hurtful to me as a woman. I don't want to believe that God wants me to sit quietly and be hurt and discarded as having no value except as I can serve a man. Especially in putting myself in surrender to a man whose goals and interests are to be a silly imp and free of responsibilities. I must take into consideration that the Bible is written by men/for men. Some words have been substituted by me for me to have the permission to expect and view marriage to actually work for the family, not just for the man.
A husband of noble character is his wife's crown, but a disgraceful husband is like decay in her bones. Proverbs 12:4
An excellent husband who can find? He is far more precious than jewels. The heart of his wife trusts in him, and she will have no lack of gain. He does her good, and not harm, all the days of her life. He seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands. He is like the ships of the merchant; He brings her food from afar. ... Proverbs 31: 10-31
It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome husband. Proverbs 21:9
The man Folly is loud; he is seductive and knows nothing. Proverbs 9:13
Wisdom will save you from the immoral man, from the seductive words of the promiscuous man. Proverbs 2:16
Jenne....Subjective Subject Matter
Submitted by kellyj on
My wife and I came to an understanding of something that has taken a long time to get a grasp on for me. She has tried to tell me in her own way that I was speaking in a way that she found offensive as she said? That was how she worded it. "you speak to me in a way I can't understand or that I find offensive" What finally came out after this long trial and error on my part what her inability for abstract thought or to understand anything abstractly? She uses to say things like "I'm a concrete thinker" Or say.."I'm a black and white thinker who is very direct". This...I clearly understood. How could I not? I would see and hear her do it....so now what? That told me what I saw..and what she said was right? Now what? And all she would say was "you you-you.." telling me...."you doing this" The problem was...she was wrong in what she was saying I was doing? She really didn't know what I was doing...since what I was doing was talking about things in abstract terms or abstract concepts that this she could not understand? I know I so it...and I also know I do and say a lot of things...so this did not help me understand why she couldn't understand me? The problem was...she was taking me literally at my word. She could only hear...the literal translation..on everything I said? In order to understand things conceptually....you have to think in the abstract to get the meaning? And if you can't do that....then you will not understand? How do you communicate a complex idea in abstract terms....if the person listening to you cannot do this? And then there's context. The context in abstract terms...for subjective subject matter is one thing. Putting something in abstract terms in a subjective concept..and then trying to make that thing objective so a person can follow the directions...is pretty much what you are saying too about the Bible. But in respect to you Jenne...I don't get you can't do this like my wife? What I'm getting from you and that you were simply told to obey and not read anything into it? And simply put...the language tells you so. You must obey...or else. Pretty much. It really is quite black and white..the way the Bible is written in most of the passages within it.
And then there's this one: Revelations 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. Holy shit batman!!! I ain't chang'in no words by golly!! Woah!! God's gonna add some unknown plague on me or something if I don;t do exactly what God says!!! By the book? Frogs are going to start coming out of the woodwork, hail that's on fire is going to start raining out of the sky on my head, and locust are going to start coming out of nowhere if I try and change those words!!! Literally speaking about GODS plagues? That would give anyone a complex..if it were true? From my first recollection of hearing that stuff...that exactly what I was thinking it meant? That wording...is highly leading someone to think of it in the wrong way? "I warn you!!!" "You Must!!!" "YOU better do it...or else I'm coming down on you and how!!" "You must obey...or else!!" And with me, it got to the point where I just figured I'm screwed. I'm going straight to Hell, because clearly...I could not obey the rule even when I tried? I just finally gave up..and threw the whole thing in the toilet. Screw it!! I'm done with that shit!!! No way...no how...could I do what it said? So if I'm going straight to Hell anyway...I might as well enjoy the ride? Why not? If you can't do it?
But as you were saying this....you were told this is the way it is...and you obeyed? Why even question it...if that's what it says? I get that. And I also get...that I tried and I couldn't do it even if I tried to obey? Now what? And when I asked questions...I got nothing back but flack. No one would answer my questions except....shut up and listen. Well, I was listening...but I still didn't understand? That's because, no one took the time to explain it too me..and put it into a context that I could understand it? This goes all the way back to the time I got kicked out of Sunday school..for asking too many questions albeit...with a little bit of an attitude already and a fair amount of frustration on my part. Plus...I hate being there in the first place. I hated nothing more than to get all dressed up in my "Muffy and Buffy " uniform and go to church on Sunday. It was pure torture for me to sit still and keep silent for over an hour at age 5 years old. I hated it with a passion and Sunday school was even worse than my mother trying to explain it to me? My mother at least didn't get angry. She just didn't make any sense...and so I stopped listening to her. What is really funny, is that I recently shared my story or frustration with someone on facebook..and they liked my story so much...they used it in a meme. It was the part where I kept asking how the Penguins made to Noah's Ark and was wondering how they got there, and how they survived in a desert climate coming from the South Pole? I was really into nature shows and nature books at that age...so I was really into knowing about animals and I love Penguins and they fascinated me as I remember? I don't know why...I just really liked Penguins? LOL And all those other questions I had like. "why didn't the lions and tigers eat everyone on the Arc? What did they eat? Penguins???" And I was absolutely dead serious too. I wasn't joking around at all? And the end result was me getting kicked out of Sunday school and the mother who ran it told my mother I was not allowed back? Holy Cow!! They weren't kidding? Don't ask questions! Don't change the words! And whatever you do...just obey and shut up....or else? There you go. I learned my lesson and that was the lesson I learned. Well, that didn't work for me very well and the fact is....I still wanted the answer? How did those Penguins get there and why didn't the Tigers and Lions start snacking on the Penguins? And for me...I just couldn't let that go. I could not go any further in my understanding of it...until someone explained this to me and I got quite pissed off and the entire experience. Until I finally talked my mom out of going...once my father stopped going. That was one of the greatest days of my very young life!!! LOL
And in the same way, I could not get in the context to the story...what the story was trying to say? All I heard was an animal story like the ones I would see on the nature shows? But this story did not line up...with my own understanding of it? What else do you expect from a 5 year old? That they are going to get the abstract meaning of the story or moral of the story if you don't bludgeon them over the head with it in the simplest of terms? See Jane run. Run Jane Run. See the ball, The ball is red. See Bill bounce the ball. The ball is fun. Bill has fun with the red ball. Jane has fun too. Bill and Jane have fun with the red ball. The red ball is fun. Nothing too abstract about that is there? LOL
I think in part....this is difficult for everyone in respect to some things for sure. But when you hear language in absolute terms...with some kind of threat put behind it...it's enough to make you freeze up in fear...of doing the wrong thing? At some point...someone or something has to come along and re-explain it again in a different way....that goes beyond "see Jane run...run Jane run" To..."Jane is going jogging after work, and she needs some new running shoes. If you look out the window, you'll see her jogging if you wait for her to run since she usually takes your street on her way around the neighbourhood.
But now...consider if they put that passage in the Bible? What the Hell is jogging? LOL Can you imagine trying to tell people 2000 years ago who walk everywhere..."that I'm going jogging in the desert sun for exercise? LOL They would probably lock you up, and think you were possessed by demon spirits or something? Or going mad? LOL And what's a neighbourhood? Or worse...what's a "Fitbit" training timer with a heart beat monitor? They would simply think you were insane?
The truth of the matter is...my wife does not have an inability to understand abstract concepts but she doesn't understand them easily and it take some patience on my part to get her there? She will get it eventually...but only if she figures it out herself? If you have someone doing that for you..and then giving you the simply instructions to follow....you'll never figure out why...and so that leaves you with simply obeying. And since you MUST obey or else...you never question it any further? For me, that was the thing that put me over the edge. As soon as I heard ...."or else"...I copped a pretty quick attitude about that. I had had just about enough of those "or else's" to last me a lifetime already. That was the "wrong way to go about it" for me. It just didn't' work. I needed something objective to reference in m world around me...to put those things into the context of today...or I could not understand it at all. And for me, I went out and tested the waters so to speak..and nothing happened like they said...so I figured they must be wrong? I gave myself permission a long long time ago to stop obeying and just figure it on my own which eventually I did. I followed the rules faithfully when I had to...but when I didn't have to, all bets were off. I just learned it the hard way...but eventually, I did figure it out. And I'm applying the same thing to my wife now...so she will be able to catch up and get on the same page. Context and making what is subjective ...objective..is really where I'm looking right now in our communication and it seems to be working. The same way it worked for me....kind of the hard way but at least one of us understands it...so I'm the one who has to adjust and make some changes there not my wife in exactly the same way that those mothers in my Sunday school...did not change or adapt to me. I'm not throwing her out the door and kicking her out just because she doesn't understand. If I have to be the teacher then so be it. I can do that and I can learn as I go. The same way I've always done. The hard way. That's at least something I'm familiar with.
J
Husband's also receive very
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Husbands also receive very specific instructions in the Bible. Here is just one example.
'Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it.' Ephesians 5:25
A wife, alone, can't build a biblical marriage. The husband has to want it and live it, also.
I feel certain that if my husband had lived out the verse above, I would instinctively trust him and happily submit to him. It would be a marriage of mutual love and respect. Neither party would feel cheated or taken advantage of.
I truly don't believe that God expects the wife to blindly submit with nothing in return. The husband has huge responsibility in building a biblical marriage.
Hopeful, thank you for this
Submitted by dedelight4 on
" I truly don't believe that God expects the wife to blindly submit with nothing in return. The husband has huge responsibility in building a biblical marriage"
Thank you. THIS, right here, has been a main issue in our marriage. I would SO love it, if my husband was a man who sought after God, wanting to live the life that God has for him. It would make it so much easier to be a biblically "submissive" wife, if this were the case. I believed as jenna did growing up, and was taught the same things. I also, couldn't get the life I was TOLD would happen if I just "did this". The MAN (husband) must FIRST be a Godly man, seeking God's wisdom and insight for the family, and loving his wife as Christ loved the CHURCH, which is WHOLE LOT OF LOVE. I have yet to see a husband who cherishes his wife in such a way. I know they DO exist, because I've seen women on television whose husbands are SO loving and kind to them, and provide them with good lives, but in my personal life, I haven't seen that yet. But, I've seen a whole lot of women who end up being the spiritual one of the family, and the husband just kind of "checks out", when it comes to anything spiritual. It's kind of like they won't be "cool" any more, if they become too Godly like. A sad thing to be sure, when it's just the opposite. The good life they're LOOKING for, is the one that's already been laid out for us in scripture, if we choose to follow it. A lot does depend upon the husband.
jennalemone, was raised the same
Submitted by dedelight4 on
HI, jenna. I was raised exactly the same way, and was told year after year by the ministers of this particular faith, "If you women live as a submissive Christian life, then your husbands will fall into their God given "leadership" role", "But, if you don't they CAN'T become the leader they were meant to be". Well, I did just that, and NO, the husband doesn't FALL into a leadership role, especially if he doesn't know what a leadership role is supposed to consist of. Too many of the young men ended up being abusive, and angry/demanding, instead of strong, decisive and upstanding. The young men weren't TAUGHT leadership principles, or HOW to love your wives/ women, and I guess it was just assumed they would pick it up somehow. (most didn't) Parents also failed to teach their children these things and also assumed that because they were "in the church", they would just LEARN this stuff automatically. (they don't) And, if parents don't live this example, the children don't know HOW to do it either, which is one of the saddest things that happened in OUR marriage. My husband didn't LIVE the example of a loving husband/father, and our daughters have paid heavy prices for that. He was the example they had of what a man should be, and they chose men that hurt them, like he did. I have cried many tears over this choice.