My husband and I don't go out very much. Luckily we are both home-bodies and he enjoys going to his football and I have friends that I get together with and a craft class that I enjoy. I know from experience that we rarely have a night out together that is not ruined, usually by his unwillingness to get anywhere on time or his sulkiness once he is there.
However yesterday we had been invited out to lunch by my old school friend and her husband. We have been to their house in the past,but only in a party situation so the four of us have never socialised on our own before. We were having a nice time and a good laugh when the subject arose about finding hair in your food. I have a thyroid condition and therefore lose hair on a daily basis, but I do manage to control things by staying vigilant . My husband suddenly piped up " Don't have food at our house then. She loses her hair in the food all the time".
I felt so shamed and embarrassed and we managed to laugh it off. Later on the subject turned to women having affairs and my husband leaned toward my friends husband and said "I wouldn't care if she wanted to get herself another man, I'd gladly introduce her to someone". Once again I felt shamed and embarrassed.
The bad thing is that he only ever says things like this about ME. He will tease his adult children (we are both in 2nd time relationship) but would never say things like that.
Does anyone else recognise this and how do you deal with it?
Hi Old Goose...
Submitted by c ur self on
I would like to tell you, that I feel for you...It sounds like your husband's mind has just gotten to the place that he's not filtering thoughts before speaking....Did he apologize when you confronted him about it?...Just guessing here, but, I'm betting the other couple y'all were visiting with had great empathy for you also, and understood what was going on in his mind...His reaction to being confronted about the comments would play a role with me concerning any future outings with him....No one wants to be embarrassed and subjected to insults....
Blessings
C
This is NO FILTER and PASSIVE
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
This is NO FILTER and PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR.
Part of the "no filter" is that they're so busy trying to be funny and entertaining that they're not thinking of the impact to the "butt" of their joke. In this case, you.
The fact that he only goes too far with you suggests that this is passive aggressive behavior. He's annoyed at something (maybe going to this function) and he's taking it out on you by disparaging you.
I certainly do recognise it
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
That's an old codger yuck-yuck joke at someone else's expense in front of other people. OWW's got a good guess about passive aggression, but it also could be that he's so inadroit at group behavior and civil respect that he thinks he's getting along in a group, joining in, in an acceptable way, by telling har de har jokes on someone.
Classic old guy, from an era in which old dudes especially would make unfiltered remarks about other people's bodies and prowess. There is locker room and playing field taunting among men about these things, but even in the old days most men didnt carry the smart remarks about someone else's looks or sexual life into mixed groups.
How would I deal with it? Well, dont call him out in front of people. I doubt you would anyway. But give him more social respect than he just gave you.
On the other hand, dont cover for his social fail or play along with it. Believe me, he's the one the group will think little of. Trust that they'll see his disrespect for what it is. How about, if you can pull it off, nothing response.... just go on talking with someone else who had been speaking, or change the subject. Just go on with everyone, as if his cloddish disrespect hadnt happened.
I dont know what you're dealing with at home, but it cant hurt to tell him in private exactly what you want him to stop doing when He talks about you in public. Dont have a discussion about your feelings. If he goes defensive, dont go there. Tell him what not to do and that's all. Dont explain or justify yourself to him. You dont need to do that. He was the one doing the fail, not you. Ignore any "you're too sensitive" or "It was just a joke" talk. Just tell him what you want him to do differently about talking about you in front of others.
He may or may not.
I know these moments can be humiliating, O.G. Try keeping your cool, your head high, not covering or reinforcing him when he bombs like that in a group, and go on.
A lot of times these old duffers are trying to do clumsy group belonging moves, and dont have a clue. I dont care his age, it's old duffer behavior. From a different era. It was cloddish back then.
When my boyfriend...
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
has no filter moments, or TMI moments, which are rare now, I don't react, and sometimes I calmly walk away from the conversation.
My absence speaks more than words.
TMI and No Filter is evidence of Impulsiveness, Insensitivity...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
TMI and No Filter is evidence of Impulsiveness, Insensitivity, and no empathy....which can mean a variety of short-comings, disorders, and/or immaturity.
Hi Old Goose
Submitted by kellyj on
I thought I would second what was already said here before....this is passive aggressive. I think reading this is pretty clear that your H is annoyed with hair in his food but he understands about you condition....but only up to a point? He's got something to say....and he's not saying it which is probably just that. He doesn't like it and it annoys him but he is compelled...to say it to you when you have no means to defend your self in front of others so he can always say...." you know.....I was just kidding. I didn't really mean it that way?" OW is right.....you were the butt of the joke but with people you didn't really know very well? Basically....he picked that time to say something so it really wasn't a joke? It wasn't meant to be funny or entertaining necessarily...but it could be in kind? Meaning.....if you and everyone else was in on it too....then it could be funny if it was done differently....with everyone on board? One is meant with intention...to bring everyone together...the other one...is meant to separate you from everyone else in an embarrassing way? A joke shouldn't have the intention to embarrass just one person....if that person is not willing to embarrass themselves at the same time and laugh along with you? In other words....is everyone ( including him ) laughing at you....or laughing with you"? (even if unintentional ) it's still a social blunder in person in front of other people you don't really know very well? A Fo Pa.....you might say, in that if you were at home and your family and everyone knew this already about you....and this was out in the open and it was really not a big deal a( to him that is ) he could joke about it and everyone could laugh about it to ease the tension and reduce the impact and just laugh it off as a joke which might even work in the opposite direction now....and ease tension with a little humor so you wouldn't feel so alone about it which out in the open like that...you might not feel so embarrassed about it? Saying it like "hey..it's no big deal...if you can't laugh at yourself...who can you laugh at?" Which might have the opposite effect...if done with that intention instead? The intention ( whether aware of it or not...shows in the punch line..and how that affected you and everyone else in the room....that's the bottom line so that could be.....just a social fo pa or blunder in a naive way too?
Bad timing....wrong time and place.....wrong context......wrong intended purpose? If he was trying to BE funny TO friends himself with out you being a part of it except for the punch line ( the butt ) at your expense...he just crossed a boundary of ( yours ) without thinking about that?
But just as it reads....he as a bone to pick with you so to speak ( not really because of course...you can't help this condition you have ) and he not very very accepting? I have to say....this is something that really shows a difference between my wife and I? To put this better into context of our situation.......the definition of being the "butt of the joke" in comedic terms"...is said as being the "Stooge".
At home....I am the Stooge..and I play that part many times on purpose clowning around literally? I can play both sides of the fence pretty easily and take in what ever I give back out in q tit for tat repartee of bad jokes, bad pun, and silly ridiculous anecdotes which only serve to make fun of things in a less sarcastic...but "satirists" way...as said....being factitious? When I lower myself down below others like that from a more humble position.....I can cut up...and strike back ....and go toe to toe in a non threatening and attacking way not to get a rise out of just one person in the room...but both people in a light hearted way.
In essence....I'm not taking myself seriously...and no one ESE is either...on purpose to shine a light on the ridiculous..and minimize the intensity of a problem ( or even a potential problem that EVERYONE is having.....( not implying you here but with me myself? ) or even what might be annoying to me too about myself? Saying....equal opportunity to voice an opinion in a funny way or making fun....but everyone is allowed to voice it right back with my defenses down like that and I am exposed and vulnerable to anything coming back and now I am just having fun? I committed in other words...and I'm in all the way myself and putting my foot in it so obviously....that there no question who I am making fun of....or....what my intention is? I'm not trying to hide anything....including any problems I am having with anything anyone else might be having.....BUT...I know this already about the people I am with? Others may have already said as much...including the person your with or who the joke is about? All that is....is a bunch of people all on the same page..and having fun with each other at each others expense but done with that intention and everyone is playing along?
In direct relationship with this.....you don't think....the Three Stooges weren't in on being the butt of their own jokes and with each other? You might not like the slap "Schtick" approach they have...but in respect to them.....they do.( and so do many others) ..and that's the point?
And as Moe would say to Curly....."wise guy eh? You've got a point you moron...and if you wear a hat...no one with see it??" A direct quote....from Moe himself...stolen and plagiarized by me here on a number of times....taken out of the same context...and put right back into the same one to make the same point...in a humorous way?
BUT....at home.....my wife does not respond well to this type of humor? She doesn't like silly..and she feels this kind of humor is judgmental and not funny...as she says it....silly humor...not funny to her? So in the respect I do have with her in the context of her only.....I have learned in time not to do it with her since she is basically not thinking its funny so then what's the point? If she thinks it isn't funny and I do...then I have no intention in doing so because I know what that will get ( both of us ) when the punch line comes? So basically....it's the same condition you described here with your friends.....but he would have no way to know if they thought that was funny or not...but more importantly....everything I just said kind of goes out the window in that case? There really is no other way that you could take this yourself and not feel embarrassed even if YOU yourself are not overly sensitive to this situation with your hair and like you said...you do everything you can to keep that away from your husband but you can;t help that you have this problem or didn't do anything to create it? It's not your fault....but it is your responsible to do what you can...but not be perfect in that respect?
If your husband has such an issue or sensitivity to your hair ( or even one or two on occasion ) then he's being unreasonable...and taking out his frustrations back in you in and under handed way by doing what he did? That is passive aggressive behavior...and "volunteering you" as being the Stooge? Kind of serving you up for dinner as they say...and chumming the shark infested waters with fish heads to stir up the pot a little? That's what it is really is in this case.....just "stirring up the pot"...and serving you up for dinner? He's not lowering himself down below you and making himself vulnerable to attack and saying....come and get it...alls fair in Love and War and I'm first here? And if everyone is fine with that...the "game on"....lets play?? Let the wild rumpus begin!!! lol
In your case as it sounds at least.like that....."I was just kidding"....isn;t funny...and it was embarrassing ( more him than anyone else )...unless everyone was in on the joke including you which was not the case and why that wasn't funny and he crossed the line even if he didn't realize it? My wife will do this too in public sometimes....and she really doesn't see it or understand what she did at times ( most of the time in fact ) even if I've tried to tell her this?
But there is flip side to this coin which might show as to why with her too? She will actually do the same kind of Fo Pa herself....and "point directly at the very thing...she should not point at herself (in this way like she does ) and kind of shines a big spot light on her "flaw" what ever it is at the time? Literally....out or so much insecurity and worry that people see a tiny flaw...like a tiny spot on her clothes in a place where no one would ever it.....she will be compelled to say something or make a comment about this very spot.....so now every one in the room now "LOOKS"....right at this spit on her dress or clothes....and now EVERYONE KNOWS IT" THERE!!! Way to go on that one????LOL
It so ridiculous sometimes? I have tried to tell her with limited success...that if you are so insecure about something that if it embarrasses you THAT MUCH!!! ( this spot on her pant leg or where ever ) and the last thing you want to have happen is for people to see it because you're personally embarrassed by it.....what's the smartest thing to do in this case? Tell everyone in the room by pointing right at it so now everyone is staring at it where if she didn't say anything .....no one would probably notice or or give any attention to it at all? It's like the opposite thing she wants to have happen....so to ensure it does she says "Hey Look at the spot on my dress everyone!!!" ...as if anyone really cares which as far as a spot on her pants or dress...no one really does? And if someone is that petty themselves..and judges her,...for not being perfect. or there is tiny spot on her dress, then that's their problem not hers......but will she listen? What do you think? NO!!! With her...she is an equal opportunity...."embarrasser"...and I'm an equal opportunity "clown" or "fool"....or "Stooge" myself but as long as no one is playing long with me in the room...then I have no other need to do this ...unless I really am venting and being passive aggressive but more assertively and obviously ....not being "factitious" but being openly "sarcastic?" One is done in the sense of humor saying at the same time ( we're all flawed..and I'm the worst one in the room?) The other one is done ( in contrast) with the sense of anger? ( and bone to pick but is afraid of saying to your face directly in this (INDIRECT MANNER) "I was just kidding"...is not being factitious in this case and just using the back door....to give you a dig at your expense?
And even if I were in polite company...and I don;t get that from them first as a guest for sure...and they appear not to be in on it...and find that invasive? You can get the feeling for the audience in other words....if everyone has their guard down..and making "fun"...for "fun"......not to embarrass each other or make the other person feels bad unintentionally speaking...and more indirectly being factitious ous and openly committed to being the fool by making yourself vulnerable...by using the back door to do it?
The other version of this in what your husband sounds like he did...was use the back door to make the point....but done in socially unacceptable way which was directly to the point ( right off the bat )....and embarrassing himself by doing it? Just like my wife at times> Shining a big spot light on what ( bothers HIM.)...but no one else does for sure..since hardly know them so there would be no way for them to know....which is just further making the same point? You have no idea if that would actually bothered them and from the sound of it....they might not even notice as you say? That you are pretty dillligent so this might not even be what he is upset about at all which is really passive aggressive and just kicking the dog in front of company now?
Anything like this of course, is just saying it in a way....that puts you into a corner...with no way out or no way to dissent without embarrassing yourself or the two of you and fighting about it in front of polite company? It's too familiar for that context.....unlike when you are at home where it would be different but still...you could say something without embarrassing anyone..and speak up and tell him off ( or how you feel ) since you have no responsibility to others in that context? He put you into a position...along with himself....and you went along for the ride and he served uou up for dinner in a passive aggressive ( and kind of cowardly ...underhanded way? ) That's the effect it has on me in this case from what it looks like? But I know one thing I keep trying to tell her...and it's the same thing even for herself ( where I am not involved ) she will still tell everyone about that tiny spot on her dress...as if anyone cares except for her in this case? She's compelled to do it....so it's not about kidding or playing games for her in this case? She is dead serious...and it's not about having fun? And silly....feels judgmental to her...as in a satirist way of looking at the ridiculous...and "getting the joke? And especially and even more importantly ...if the joke is anywhere near here in the opposite extreme compared to me? She is so sensitive to criticism or "looking or being :"wrong" herself ....about anything to do with her....it's always serious...and she takes everything personally because of it? Yet she's the one shining a spot light on everything...instead of keeping her mouth shut and not saying anything in these moments which if she could do that.....there would be no problem in the first place?
She sees only the ridiculous part ( or a clown or buffoon...which is "Silly"..as she says ) but doesn't get the "punch line" which is why she doesn't thinks it's funny? But going the other way...she is so concerned about what other people are thinking about her...that she ends up making a buffoon of herself..and me along with her in these moments...Unintentionally, uncommitted ( and can never 'step down" and lower herself...even in having fun out of her own self loathing and anger about these things herself )..and completely sabotaging everyone all at the same time? If she did think these things were funny ( or were kidding ) and she could play along in a light hearted way...then she would think it's funny...and she would be funny ( in general ) ( and make herself the Butt of the joke in turn...which she can't or never will do? ) instead of trying to be funny ...and not being very funny at all? She's got a pretty big spotlight in her back pocket..and she is always shining it everyone else except for her? If she could step down and then do it....it would be all in fun and no one would be the wiser?
Wise guy eh???? ( Doink!!! ) lol ...KISS ( keep it simple stupid ) Speaking to myself here as much as anyone else as always....( just making sure after all of that and yes...sometimes I fail here to...but I can usually tell if i get the feedback that says so to me directly or not done passive aggressively either? Passive aggressive doesn't;t actually say what the other person is actually angry about...that's the problem with that particular back door method. The person you are angry with....doesn't know why because it is not direct....in behind the back or underhanded which is why it's not acceptable social etiquette because is makes everyone uncomfortable except maybe for them only since they are getting something from it for themselves?
The one thing that really struck me when I saw a video I included about Avoidance Personalities ( in this case full blown disorder but the patterns are the same even though? The therapist in the video made a reference that really hit the Bulls eye with my wife? While putting her fingers up, crossing them like ("Back...Back I Say!!! ) .when she mentioned the word "threat"..and "unsafe"...when people are really gregarious and outgoing which is the antithesis or what a person like this is all about? Avoiding the issue...instead of resolving it as their main MO. Unfortunately...that would fit ME! LOL
And from my point of view...I do not understand this at all!!! But I'm an extrovert....what can I say? This is who I am...and my wife's "problem with this....is really her problem not mine? But I do have to be respectful anyway to her sensitivities...and not let my sensitivities get the better of me...like they are with her? Even in the case where I don't understand? The temptation is for me to play "tit for tat" with her in her game, and be compelled to do that and take the bait...cause Homey don't play and I'll be shooting myself in the foot...by playing a game anyway when no one is having fun...that's for sure?
J
oldgoose, I got this quite a bit
Submitted by dedelight4 on
My ADHD husband did this to me quite a bit, and it was terribly embarrassing. And, he only did this to me, in front of others. People were embarrassed FOR me, and I was also embarrassed repeatedly. My daughters would be livid over these comments. I learned about Passive Aggressive behavior, and he fit almost every thing about it. I asked him about it, and told him if he was angry at me for something, he should just come out and SAY it. But, he always said to me, "I'm not very good about saying what I want to say, when I want to say it". And, "I"m just not very good with saying what I mean, etc". But, he had no trouble saying these harsh things, which HE thought was incredibly funny.
Yes, he DID have a good sense of humor, but THIS was different. Passive aggressiveness is NOT being funny, it is hurtful, and immature. Plus, he didn't seem to say them about anyone else other than me. Once in a while it would be someone else, but mainly it was at my expense. I do wish he would have told me just WHAT he was "angry" at, or about. It wasn't for lack of trying, because I OFTEN asked him if there were things he was upset about, or wanted to discuss.
I know when he was younger, these type of verbal "attacks" got him in trouble, because I eventually found out about things he said to his "friends", that THEY didn't like so much. Whether it's a lack of having a FILTER, or just plain immaturity, it can really hurt relationships. I also often wondered, why he never looked into WHY he did this, because of the negative responses it got him.
Anyway, I've been away from him for about 10 months now, and I'm getting better as I go along. It's taking a while to like 'reprogram" my mind to not expect negative feedback from people, (including my own inner voices) because it was something I lived with for SO LONG, I learned to despise myself from getting so much negative input, and non-acceptance from him. It really damaged my self worth.(which is getting better now)
Dede
To Error is Human Dede...You Can't Run and Hide?
Submitted by kellyj on
And to forgive is Devine so why try and hide it which only prevents forgiveness from every happening? Denial of what is and trying to hide it only backfires on you and makes you look worse? Better to look worse and ( and be the fool or admit when you are ) and make fun of yourself and make a joke about it....than to try and hide it and and be laughed at yourself or make your self the fool in reality? It really is foolish...to try and tell someone your angry with them .....and then not allow them or you to forgive or forget by doing it in a passive aggressive way to shield yourself from retaliation by making the other person look bad only at their expense since......to be forgiven and to forgive anyone first and foremost....it has to be done where you give the other person the chance to voice and opinion or dissent either way? The concept or idea of perfection is a myth any way....and you can;t please all of the people all of the time so why even try and have that as your goal? To give the impression or illusion of perfection externally...to hide the flaws internally...that end up showing themselves anyway? Even worse when you do it that way? Everyone makes mistakes and everyone fails? No one is perfect...so why pretend that you are? It only makes yourself and everyone else in the room look worse and when you assume.....you make an ass out of U and ME?
To error is human...and to be a fool sometimes is forgivable? But to play the fool and to laugh at yourself...could be seen as a celebration in saying....."we are all the same after all...if you can't laugh at yourself.....then who can you laugh at? Really? The one nice thing about being here on this forum is.....we don't know anyone openly...and no one is really hurt by anything that is being said since.....how can you be angry at stranger you don't even know really.....when the only risk of embarrassment is to yourself anyway? No matter what when it comes right down too it.....I am not embarrassed or feel ashamed of having ADHD or even when I fail because of it? I don;'t always like how I am treated because of this...by I can't blame anyone else for that much?
But I can in a sense....blame my wife for one thing here that she does and it is this very thing I mentioned? I can blame someone for using me as a scapegoat.....to make themselves feel better at my expense live and in person in front of others....by stirring the point and serving me up for dinner...and using me as the butt of the joke with that passive aggressive intention in mind? That is not only being emotionally dishonest....it is a cowardly thing to do at someone else's expense if in this specific instance? I may make social blunder out of ignorance or not being midful....but that is a mistake on my part if that happens...and if someone calls me on it.....I don't get angry with them if they are honest about it...and don't try this back door message in order to get that message across to me? If someone is open and up front about a mistake I've made.....it allows me to say I'm sorry and allows them to forgive me and it works both ways?
This way.....prevents any of that from happening...so then why do it at all....and why not just own up to it and stop trying to hide from it? Running away from your problems...will never make them go away? You take you with you where ever you go anyway....so thinking that this will solve or resolve anything is magical thinking? Nothing up my sleeve....Abra Ka Dabra.....Poof???? Sorry Charlie....it's still there? And the world wasn't created in 7 days either....as we know what a day is and that much is fact as well? That would be magic too...and magic really doesn't exist in that sense...except in our imaginations?
J
Dede To Complete My Thoughts About "Things" Here
Submitted by kellyj on
I was thinking of you and the things you just said in your last post Dede....and I just reread what I had said about to Error is Human?
Anyway, I've been away from him for about 10 months now, and I'm getting better as I go along. It's taking a while to like 'reprogram" my mind to not expect negative feedback from people, (including my own inner voices) because it was something I lived with for SO LONG, I learned to despise myself from getting so much negative input, and non-acceptance from him. It really damaged my self worth.(which is getting better now)
Experience. Why is experience so important and why is it...as they say.....the best teacher? And why when we assume.....WE ( or you ) ...make an ASS ....out of.....YOU and Me? And within what you just said about the last 10 months....these are the things that you've learned? As you said....you learned to despise yourself from so much negative input and non acceptance from him?
And why is it.....that old Goose felt ashamed and embarrassed in a moment when no one really should be ashamed and embarrassed at all? As I went back over what she said....it occurred to me the very thing I had said ( or speculated possibly ) earlier to her in that the hair issue that she has ( as was possibly inappropriately said or brought up PA? yes ) and as she said here...
I felt so shamed and embarrassed and we managed to laugh it off. I was thinking about this one sentence and how old Goose must have felt at the time? So to error is human...and to have a physical handicap or issue with her hair could be seen as simple an "Act of God".....as they say?
Wisdom is not assuming or drawing conclusions? Wisdom is taking from what you've learned in the past....and learning from the mistakes them and concluding ( not drawing conclusions and speculating ...totally different ) and taking those mistakes and errors made from them and then en-acting on what you've learned ..so as not returning to those same mistakes again from what we learned so not to repeat them in the future?
The word "en-acting"....or to initiate an action....could be said as to "act on" or to "Act"....as in a stage play or performance?
"All the world's a stage" and each man plays his part in it" .......is the phrase that begins a monolog from William Shakespeare's As You Like It, spoken by the melancholy Jaques in Act II Scene VII. The speech compares the world to a stage and life to a play, and cataloguers the seven stages of a man's life, sometimes referred to as the seven ages of man:
infant, schoolboy, lover, soldier, justice, Pantalone and old age, facing imminent death. It is one of Shakespeare's most frequently quoted passages.
In thinking of this wisdom as said......Old Goose played a part in what happened to her with her husband that day....from a place or position she was in....which now forced her to be on center stage?
So here you have Acts of God....and Acts of Man/Woman ( I'll just default to the old stand by "Man" here ( as in mankind ) with all due respect to women too for simplicity sake in keeping with Shakespeare terminology in this act of mine for argument sake! lol )
The Act of God.....neither her or her husband had any control in? Her hair and thyroid issue...and her husband's ADHD? I have heard it said for some...that they believe that Homosexuality...is a life style "Choice".....which I have strong opinion about is saying this is the thinking of the deluded mind in denial. That is a 100% false statement and is an absolute lie!! It is an Act of God....and in which why those who say such a thing...are doing the very thing here in a passive aggressive Act....to deny their own responsibility and to endorse and protect their right to be nothing more than a coward and a bigot in a hateful way?
I've got in some heated debates with people in the past on this subject before...and almost entirely the people who are proponents of this type of "bigotry" are actually reported as being "Christians with strong faith and beliefs"....and in the Bible and staunch advocates of "Christian Ideals and Moral Values".....onward Christian Soldiers...Marching as to War!!!! And in their thinking and circular reasoning...they will almost inevitably pull out passages in the Bible to hide behind because they've got no leg to stand on in a true honest debate? In a true honest debate where the odds are even in ever winning....the playing field has to be level...and you have to use "good reason"...but mainly.....YOUR OWN....in order to win? The second you use "Someone else's reason"...in place of their own which they don't have...since they are unwilling to concede and are bound and determined to keep believing the lie that they must believe to support their position since they really GOT...no leg to stand on...and are crippled in this kind of debate. And it is futile to try and argue with a person like this...because they will employ every single thing that a person in denial will use...to use against you in order to maintain their position or "part" ....or "role" .....in this Act in the play they are in? ( the Play of life ). And they will not fail in pulling any punches....or pulling pull directly straight out their own asses....these selected and prepared passages of the Bible to hide behind in an intellectual ( or intelligent ) debate....which is the "Act of a Coward"....who is trying to defend themselves by using someone else to do so? And the rationalizations used are incredibly "Stupid" because of it? But what we are talking about...is just one "scene" in the play and the play has many many acts...until it is over?
I'll give you one such scene...in using my own mother here as the model but I will go on to show your or say.....how brave my own mother really was in the entire play but just not this one scene? It is pretty ridiculously funny when you get right down to the bottom and I am using my mother here to laugh this off it's so ridiculous as a means to argue something like arguing against someone who is gay or gays in general just to show you how "stupid" this kind of argument really is? And I mean this sincerely when I say.....my mother was both.....not stupid.....and highly intelligent...but these beliefs she had that she clung too came directly from her own mother? Her mother... ( my Grandmother )...was not what I would call...and highly intelligent intellectually minded person. To say the least. To say what was accurate was she was a bigoted hateful person in respect to her unfounded and rather ignorant and superstitious beliefs in a "back woods" kind of way and thinking? And she tended to hide all of her flaws and "back woods"....kind of Klu Klux Clan....ignorant Hillbilly thinking....behind the Bible and Christianity and used that as a shield to further her own personal agenda?
And this is the same ignorant thinking and arguing I run up against ( or have ) when trying to debate anything to do with Gay rights or just being Gay? Literally....just " being Gay"...is the only crime these people have committed and as far as that goes.....this is completely unacceptable to these Hillbilly "back woods" thinkers as put? But since my own mother...was not a Hillbilly back woods thinker in all ways.....she had her moments and play that part which I will call "The Jed Clampet Effect" to put a humorous touch to this here for context sake?
So in context here....if you are arguing the "Jed Clampet Effect" with someone who may be quite intelligent or well versed and educational in every way imaginable but specifically here for example:
Trying to argue that a "Cement Pond"....is really a swimming pool which will be difficult to win in such a debate with someone like this?
Or that a "Pool Table"....is not a family dining table and the holes are there to hold your belongings?
Or that if a woman is seen by a man in her "under drawers" then a shot gun wedding is in order since the code of the Hills has been violated in some way?
In one my favorite two episodes of the Beverly Hillbillies.;.. "Possum Day" and "Possum Parade"....Granny and Mrs Drysdale the next door neighbor who wants the family gone since they are an embarrassment to the Neighborhood...but her husband wants them to stay for the money they bring into his bank.....Granny Throws down a challenge to Margaret Dysdale in a contest to see who be "Possum Queen" and win in this heated contest over whether they "ways" will stay...or whether they will be kicked out of the neighborhood? And in the end....Jed public ally embarrasses Mrs Drysldale...after she goes on public radio broadcast in a "smear" campaign against Granny ( taking the upper hand in the exact same way as we are talking about here with the PA and doing it in this kind of "chicken shit" method one might say......Jed gives a brilliantly-written campaign speech against Mrs. Drysdale in that: One of the Possum Queen's perks is her weight in possum-flesh....and Jed points out to a bewildered crowd that Granny weighs a lot less than Mrs. Drysdale. If Mrs. Drysdale wins, she will require more possums. "And where will those extra possums come from?" he demands, in a quivering voice of doom, "From your own back yard!"
This is poignant to the very thing I wanted to say. Don't shit where you sleep and you won't have to worry about being exposed yourself? The fear is of exposure of the truth that is not seen or hidden and if you put your foot all the way in.....there you are....exposed? It ain't that hard to "cipher"...as Jed might say?lol And if Jed can use this fine example of logic and reason to figure this out in this depiction of an uneducated back woods man with no education or much opportunity for knowledge...then how is he able to figure this out and come to those conclusions and arguments? Logic and reason and coming to a final conclusion that way despite the insanity or even ridiculous absurdity within the Possum Day Parade and the notion of Possum to Queen to begin with with all these these funny anecdotes to go along with it? And we can laugh at this completely since it is not done in a mean spirited way which is why it is so funny? And everyone can laugh it and it...even Jed Clampet himself when all's said and done. No harm....no foul?
But in respect to the debate about Gays and what is surreptitiously and deceitfully coined as "family values" in the political arena....there is a major problem with it? People are getting hurt and lives are being ruined and those people are the ones who are Gay? I can't say that I have a single thing invested personally in this area at all? I am neither Gay or have any tenancies...or even curiosities myself? But I know Gay men..and have known Gay men...and they will all report the same thing. They were born that way....and it wasn't a choice? And I have first hand experience with one of these men right from the beginning as one of two brothers who I grew up with both..and him being the older one of the younger brother that I spent more time with? And long before anyone knew anything about his sexual orientation.....me, his brother,and every other kid in our posse of friends.....could see he was different in the way he acted and things she was interested in and there was no way to "not notice this". But as far as this guy I will call "G"......G didn't mind being this way...and neither did we? We were still friends with him and he was not ostracized from the group even though...we gave him a raft of "shit" openly about some of these things...but it was only because they were different than ours. One of them was his bicycle which at the time...was how we saw each others status as a small boy growing up in our group. I can still smile and laugh a little at these moments when we would be hanging around with each other and looking at "'status symbols" in terms of our bicycles and "G"'s bike...was not that far from the one you saw that Pee Wee Herman rode with all those bells and whistled on in ....streamers on the handle bars with lights and horns and the entire package? LOL While in the mean time....the "status quo" was to have Sting Rays....which was the standard at the time? If you wanted to be cool....growing up in that time period.....Pee Wee Hermans bike....was WAY.....Un-Cool!!! LOL And G got a lot of shit....from the boys in the hood for it let me tell you? But that didn't stop G from polishing it and being very meticulous about it and he stood out as different and completely didn't care. He hung out with us and we still played together and the only person who didn't like it or really objected was his little brother...because he was embarrassed by being associated with his older brother and his embarrassing "status symbol". LOL The rest of us.....really didn't care that much or were really invested in it all that much and this bike was just one point of ridicule to point out how he was different? But he....and we.....together....really didn't care all that much and his bike for all intensive purposes...was meticulously maintained and now if you had one of these....it would be a collectors item and be "really cool" to have?
And then later when we became adults...it all came out that he was Gay and ( still is to this day or course ) and no act from Heaven or Hell will ever change this about him. I still run into him from time to time..and our friendship has not changed on iota? I'm not embarrassed by him at all...and he's not embarrassed or afraid to be "out there" and different but the point he has made to me ( the same one I've heard as well )...this was not his choice to be this way...and it was an Act of God.
But the main proponents of hatred and bigotry against Gays are the very ones who are the biggest hypocrites of all in that they are these so called "Christians"...who are NOT Christian in my mind at all? They are fakes and phonies...who hide behind their own shame and use their own shame as a weapon...to pass that or scapegoat that onto Gays as an easy target. And the arguments and reasoning ability they posses in their arguing against this...shows itself by the conclusions that they draw in order to debate over this in their favor? I've argued this endlessly with ignorant people like this...so I know the drill and I know there is no logic or reason within the things they say? And the one I wanted to include to show you how "stupid" this is...is the one my mother came up with when I was trying to argue this with her....as just ONE example. I can give you plenty more in this case but this one came from my own household just to show your how retarded this was?
In a final conclusion that my own mother used in her reasoning over this Gay debate..as she said. "Gays ruined the word "Gay".....since she use to use that word all the time as a means to express herself...and now she can't use it anymore? " LOL That one...was off the chart ridiculous right there as a means to argue against Gays!!! LOL It's my favorite one though...which is why I included it here? Gay's are responsible....for ruining...the word....."GAY". LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! give me a break!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was all she had...as her means to argue this at the end of the debate?
But more to the bottom line here and I defy anyone to prove me wrong since this is the moment of truth...no matter who tries to argue against Gays as having any legitimacy what so ever and therefore....we have the right to de-humanize them at will no matter how much damage we cause them and cause them to suffer at .....OUR HANDS. So to speak and I have argued this enough at times...to always come to the bottom line here and it is always the same no matter what? "It's a choice to be Gay...and a "litestyle" choice." Despite every Gay person who will scream that they didn't have a choice and this was an "Act of God"......these ignorant Hillbillies and the "Jed Clampet Effect"....create this denial of the truth...that they cannot get past or admit that it is true? That God...actually could be responsible for this....so in an effort to try and argue against God and stay true to they Hatred....they stand up bold faced and say "I'm a Christian...with Christian Family Values"...which is the biggest lie and hypocrisy of all? Who are they exposing when these folks stand up and do this in plain sight of everyone else? Them selves...or Gays? And who is in the "Wrong" in this case? And who is Acting the Fool here.....most importantly of all? Gays....or the Fools .......in this case? What's to blame of course...is the "Jed Clamp Effect"...which is nothing more than ignorance...but ignorance is not the source for racial or sexual orientation bigotry here as witnessed by Jed himself in his speech over the debate of who will become Possum Queen of Beverley Hills?
Acts of Bravery What Old Goose showed in her response to her husband failure in this case....was an act of bravery. She was put into a position from and act of God....her husband took advantage of it to pass off his own shame of himself...onto her and she was embarrassed by this act? To become the person she she needed to maintain her dignity and self worth...she rose above that and laughed it off...and this was an Act of bravery right there? She neutralized the situation and passed this off as something to laugh at and made a joke about it anyway....even though she would have "passed" this opportunity otherwise I am sure? She didn't want to be "center stage" in this scene....but her husband put her there and handed her this role? And she took her role..and played her part...and became the Hero of her own story and used this act of bravery on her part...in order to do so in that one scene? That was a sign of character and integrity and her husband...showed none by what he did..and he showed none in the way he responded?
And he responded by doing it again....in the same scene together...which was showing even weaker and less char actor than before and the end effect this had on Old Goose was to feel lower than herself or to erode her self esteem?
Later on the subject turned to women having affairs and my husband leaned toward my friends husband and said "I wouldn't care if she wanted to get herself another man, I'd gladly introduce her to someone". Once again I felt shamed and embarrassed.
This was what I wanted to share with you too Dede because I have kind of had to ( by default not by my choosing ) learn the same lessons and learn from my mistakes but more importantly....I had to learn how to overcome the same effect that caused this in me....when I was ridiculed, ostracized, and belittled out of others ignorance and the Jed Clamp Effect which makes you a victim to it...by default? And in the same way....you are left...without a hope of a prayer to do anything about this for yourself as an individual?
And in the same way...the shame and the ignorance that gets past off on to you...by the same people who are trying to hid their own shame and pass it off onto others.....makes you the perfect target for this...and the Effect that the Jed Clampet Hillbilly effect has on you as well?
If their is wall of barrier you have to pass through in order to overcome this....I really can't see any other way to get through this wall in the face of fear and shame....is to go through it and expose yourself too..and that take bravery and courage to do? In this Act......Acts of kindness....or any other Acts you can try and use to overcome this...will not work. Acts of courage and bravery.....is are the only Acts that can apply to get through this wall yourself? It is the only way and I have tried them all first...before I got down to the last one...and the only one left? Courage...and bravery....are what are necessary...and either you find it or you don't...but if you can't find it in yourself.....you can't use someone else's to get you through the wall. It simply will not work and that's the real challenge you face right now yourself Dede. I know I have told you that it will be better in the future....but only if you find it in yourself to do so? It was your husbands failure to find it in himself in order to overcome this which is why you are in the scene in the play you are in? But it is only one scene...after all? There are many more left where this one came from?
If you learned to despise yourself from the failure of someone passing their own shame off onto you like this......then you can unlearn it too...but it takes heart and courage to do so which is an Act of Bravery in this case?
And with all due respect for my own mothers failure in the Act of Weakness of mind in her arguing against Gays due to the Jed Clampet Hill Billy effect bestowed upon her by her own mother.....she took that and rose to the occasion in another scene....when she stood up...completely out of character...and drew strength and courage from her heart in order to go against the powers that be ie: my father in this case? In our little insignificant play or our own family which only I witnessed and no one else....my mother became the Hero in that scene...and it was for her to do that...was the one of the bravest things I think I have ever personally witnessed? And she would tell me how brave I was and how she admired that quality in me and I had no idea what she was talking about since I didn't feel very brave at all? What she didn't realize in my humble opinion...was she was actually talking about herself not me...but in that wierd "twist of fate" I am calling it....she passed her bravery on to me in that scene in the play but because of her own denial of who she really was.....she couldn't admit it or see that either....yet she passed that ability onto me in this Act of Bravery which is the only reason I possess this myself at all? In that weird twist as it were within the same Jed Clamptet effect....she became her own hero....and she showed me the way?
Either these things get passed forward or not....but the defining moment of truth will always show itself...after the fact? You won't know it necessarily at the time....but it will come back later if you continue on the same path of courage yourself if you have faith in that much.....I think it will get you through the wall yourself? You just need to believe it will...and trust it will happen?
J