As many of you know, I'm divorced. My ex had been diagnosed with ADHD around 2007 or 2008. He has issues with money and with honesty, which sometimes overlapped. Specifically, he wanted to cheat on his taxes. I insisted that we pay taxes and I actually filled out the forms because I didn't trust him. But now we're divorced, and he apparently hasn't filed tax returns, and apparently he's in trouble with our state's department of revenue. (I know because the mail is still coming to my house. It's addressed to him but he never changed his address. I haven't opened the envelopes but it's not too hard to figure out what's probably going on.) Part of me is so relieved to not be married to him anymore. But part of me, the irrational part, is thinking, "Being honest and not cheating are important to me. If we were still married, I would be making sure that ex-H wasn't cheating on his taxes. It's my fault he's getting in trouble."
Talk me off the ledge, folks! Thank you.
Step Aside
Submitted by vabeachgal on
It's important to you. It's not important to him. You live your life guided by your values, ethics and integrity. He does not. If you had never even been married, he would be doing the same thing. He chose to report or not report income. He chose to file or not file.
It absolutely isn't your fault. He's making his own trouble. He was lucky to have you to sort things out for him previously. He chose another path and these are the consequences of HIS choices. Just make sure there's no way it can impact you negatively.
You're blaming yourself for the fact that he's in trouble now, but did he ever blame himself for getting you in trouble (or suggesting getting in trouble) while you were married? Did he ever blame himself for trying to corrupt your values, which I think as you mentioned, might have had professional repercussions?
You are no longer his broom and dustpan.
Thank you. To tell the truth
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thank you. To tell the truth, I think he resented me, because he considered me a wet blanket.
But going with what some ADHD experts say, he "can't" be honest and law abiding, so I should be doing it for him.
I call BS
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I call BS
Ironically, many of my closest friends are diagnosed ADHD/ADD and they are among the most ethical, law abiding and considerate people I know.
There are some things my ex H COULDN'T be, and quite frankly, most of them didn't bother me, but I don't believe that honest, law-abiding, non-cheating and empathetic are entirely dependent on not having an ADHD brain. Those things bothered me and I thought they were more character and background driven than ADHD driven.
I'm also confused by much of the advice. I think that by the time you seek out the advice, you're so worn down that the nuances are lost - help? support? patience? boundaries? All of that takes such strength and clarity that many at the end no longer have. And even now, I was triggered by something this weekend that should no longer bother me. I'm trying to figure out why it bothered me and why I'm still even wasting my time thinking about it same as you are now.
I think if this mail was not being delivered to your house it would be a non-issue. Put a box by front door, drop all of his stuff in it and when it's full, send it to him. Physically dispense of the mail so it's not on your mind. He forfeited any expectation that you unravel the mess for him.
When I read your first post I think "Responsible person" and I think that's a great thing but you're not responsible for him anymore. Hypocrite speaking here. My ex H bought a super super expensive sports car (I guess so he can feel like a real man) when he already has so much outstanding debt and is living in his friends extra room. His debt is now twice his annual base salary. Sigh. Why did it bother me so much? Not my monkey, not my circus.
I'm going to edit by saying that those same friends were raised by parents who expected their children to create good coping mechanisms and not make excuses. I guess that's the big difference I see in ADHD transitioning from childhood to adulthood.
Part of me feels guilty and
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Part of me feels guilty and part of me feels, "Finally, he's going to get what's coming to him!" So, no, I don't actually feel responsible for him now. I do still feel responsible for getting married and staying married for so long (30 years!) despite knowing from the get-go that this is the kind of person he is. And I feel stupid.
Experts?
Submitted by c ur self on
No one is responsible for forcing someone to live against their will....He abandoned you after 30 years....Like VBG said, adhd has absolutely nothing to do with his choices....So many men and women marry in good faith...Then end up having to be the responsible one the whole time they are married...The irresponsible one (selfish) usually stays around, just because they have someone to (enable) clean up their messes....
No friend, you aren't responsible for anything he or any other adult does....Just yourself....The best thing that can happen to someone who dodges responsibilities like him, is to have to pay for it....You never know, it may change him for the better...
c
It's all on him
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
I'll just add mine to the chorus of voices here that are telling you this is not your fault or responsibility.
If it helps, my husband is exactly this way.... with evading taxes. He now makes money under the table and truly gets a high from not having to pay anything to the government because it's money they don't know about. He thrives on it and I think it is awful and a terrible example for our daughter.
Anyway, these are all your ex's decisions. I guess if you wanted to be a hard-ass about it, you could tell him you are going to start writing return to sender on the envelopes with his new address if he doesn't update his information within XX weeks/months. And then do just that if he does not handle it. Obviously these letters are triggering you, and there is nothing fun or fair about getting worked up every time a new letter arrives and this issue should not be yours.
The greedy gene
Submitted by adhd32 on
My H also enjoys getting over and taking what is not due him. From big to small things, I think there is some charge he gets from feeling like he outsmarted someone or got over in a transaction. One time I got too much change in a store and called it to the cashier's attention and he was angry that I spoke up. What if that was your kid who made the mistake? Wouldn't you want the same kindness extended to them? He usually does not see things from another perspective, he is the primary focus of his life.
As for the IRS, I would accept no responsibility for his mess. Since he has been advised that you are still getting his mail and he has chosen to do nothing, I would write RTS not at this address, add his new address and stick it in the mailbox. If you get more, keep sending them back. It isn't your responsibility to be involved in his tax mess and advising his new address will end the constant reminders of his irresponsibility.
From my experience, bundling up the mail and sending it to him will not resolve the problem, he will just assume that you will continue to do it and he probably won't bother taking care of things anyhow. Return the mail and let him be responsible for his inaction, this is not your problem.
About a month ago, I sent my
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
About a month ago, I sent my ex the tools needed to change his address: a change-of-address kit from the U.S. Postal Service, change of address forms for the state retirement system (he is in line to get a reasonably large pension) and the department of revenue, and envelopes and stamps. He obviously hasn't done anything with them.
Until yesterday, I have been forwarding tax-related mail to ex (sometimes a new stamp, sometimes not). A friend who's in the know told me the department of revenue won't accept things marked "return to sender." So I put the latest piece of mail into a new envelope, stamped it, and sent it back, with a piece of paper on which I'd printed my ex's new address. I sent my ex an email, which he actually acknowledged (he often doesn't), telling him what I was doing.
Way to go!
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
Bravo, PI! I hope that works.
Thank you to everyone who
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thank you to everyone who posts or reads here and understands what life is or can be like when ADHD is involved. I really appreciate the support.
Just so you know that I haven't allowed myself to be completely crushed by the marriage or the divorce, I'll tell you some things I've done that my ex would have discouraged: 1) I bought a new washer and dryer. The dryer was totally broken and the washer was having issues. Ex would have tried to fix them himself or said he couldn't fix them but that we shouldn't buy new ones. 2) I had my eyes checked this morning and then ordered new glasses. Ex is supposed to wear glasses when driving but hasn't in years; as far as I know, his glasses are broken. He puts eyes and teeth into the category of things for which "poor" people, which he considers himself to be (he's not), shouldn't spend money. 3) I have a dog. This is the third one I've adopted since ex moved out. (Third one not because I don't like them and get rid of them but because I adopt senior dogs and the first two have died.) Dogs, especially senior dogs, cost money. I don't spoil my dogs but I take good care of them. Today, I bought more dog food for current dog. She eats food that is $25 per bag. Ex would go for the cheapest brand.
There are millions of people who cheat on their taxes.
Submitted by bowlofpetunias on
You can't marry all of them.
Ha ha ha ha.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Ha ha ha ha.
I just had a light bulb
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I just had a light bulb moment. I was thinking, as I've often thought, "Why did ex-h not change his address, given that this means that I will see his mail from the department of revenue? It seems he wouldn't want me to know about this." And then, for the first time ever (yeah, me being stupid again until now), the thought occurred to me: "He might or might not want ME to know about his tax avoidance, but he definitely does not want to remind HIMSELF of his tax avoidance. That's why he didn't change his address!"
Does anyone else experience similar behavior with their partners or ex-partners with ADHD?
Avoidance
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
My husband is very good at avoiding things he does not want to deal with, the largest being the problems in our marriage. No matter how I have approached him or with what issue in the past, it has been ignored. I get a defensive response and silence forever after. "If I don't acknowledge it, it doesn't exist" seems to be the mantra. Same response with home repairs, paying bills, etc.
Couple avoidance with inertia (or whatever it is that keeps our ADHD people from taking action - e.g. changing an address), and nothing is going to get done! lol
Avoidance
Submitted by adhd32 on
It is easier for H to ignore the fact that things are the way they are because of his actions. We just had a discussion about inviting his friends to an event and he made a disparaging remark that it is my fault that we rarely see them. They are his friends but he never bothers to keep up the friendships. We see them twice per year at larger bbqs. The wives are friendly, they contact me when inviting, but they are a tight group since they all grew up together or are sisters. Their husbands, H's friends, also socialize together and a few of them are brothers. I don't feel excluded it is just that they are obviously closer. I have a similar circle of female friends and we socialize regularly and very occasionally with our husbands who are not friends.
H does not stay in touch with any of the guys, once in a while he does something with one of them. So how is it that seeing them only twice per year is my fault? Because he cannot accept that his lack of inclusion is because he never stays in touch. His expectation has been that I would have buddied up to the wives and kept up with all the social nights. It's easier for him to avoid the truth and blame me rather than admit his lack of engagement is the cause of his own unhappiness.
Avoidance and Blame....
Submitted by c ur self on
Hi Melody & 32....Just found your comments interesting....I too have experienced like behavior from my W....What I was wondering was how does the avoidance and blame make you ladies feel? And how do you react, if at all? (handle it)
You both know I'm a big proponent of Acceptance...(It really helps me to not place expectations based on "what I think")....I need that as a way of keeping myself in check. so as to not call her out about things she is just going to do and say, if she is breathing....To be honest, I struggle with keeping myself in check when the avoidance (walking away unconcerned about my feelings in a matter) happens.
Our dynamic goes something like this....She will approach me (many times it's right before she must leave for work, or something, she always makes sure she can''t set down and have a normal discussion) and calmly state her Independent plans (hardly ever asks me what my feelings are about anything)...Most of the time, I'm fine with her plans...But as her husband, if I want to discuss it, (ask a question etc) or speak into her life about her decisions....All I get once she say's her peace, is her back, completely unconcerned about my feelings in the matter....So in those moments it's been my tendency to follow her through the house, and attempt to speak to her about the issue or issues she brought up...Which is only meet w/ avoidance and negativity.....And in a way, rightly so....It's not that she is right in announcing her selfish and independent plans, and walking away from her husband unconcerned with my thoughts or feelings....But, I've come to realize over the years, my problems only start when I allow myself to pursue her because I feel so disrespected and unappreciated in those moments....
See, nothing I could say in those moments could ever change her heart or mind to care about my feelings....So the pain of my attempt to speak into her closed mind is only self inflicted pain for me....And causes conflict for her, because she is locked down with defensiveness and justification....
The only way I have found to not be effected by her lack of interdependence and avoidance, Is to expect it, accept it, and not speak one word concerning it...Usually that will make her uncomfortable enough to seek my thoughts....At that point she is only looking for one answer...Approval....So it's just best, that I don't say anything but, maybe, "I heard your announcement about your plans".....Then turn my attention back to what ever I was doing when she walked up....When a person makes an announcement and has already made up their minds, no matter what you say...I've found it a fools errand, and self inflicted suffering to attempt to discuss it....I've been quiet terrible at not stopping myself from trying to say something, that would cause her to SEE her selfishness....But, I'm learning to deal with it, a little wiser...Self control is paramount....
I was just wondering how avoidance makes you feel? Do you react? Yes or No)...What do you find that works, if anything, what just causes more conflict?...Is Live and let live the only peaceful solution w/ denial and avoidance?
c
Avoidance fallout
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
Good questions I think. Before I knew about the ADHD, I was definitely perplexed by the avoidance. I would feel unheard, dismissed and like my needs and feelings were not important to him. My reactions were very valid and human - this was all true... I was being dismissed, not heard and my feelings were not being considered. Because I had more patience 10 years ago (this would be about 10 years into our relationship), I would try approaching him again about the same issue with tenderness at another time. Same result - avoidance. I would try again with less patience and get the same result - avoidance and now anger and defensiveness, too. My frustration would grow and I would finally drop the matter that was going nowhere. I guess a lot of this "re-approaching" is what seems like nagging to the ADHD spouse. But really it's just the non-spouse not getting needs met. Because of the avoidance brick wall that forced me to drop matters that were important to me, resentment would brew in me over the unresolved issue, lack of support and seeming indifference. I would say that the overwhelming feeling beyond the initial hurt and confusion I have after two decades of avoidance is resentment.
And as they say, resentment doesn't hurt him, only me. It is a difficult feeling to manage for me.
Now that I know more and understand I am dealing with ADHD, like you, I expect avoidance and accept it. I rarely approach him for anything and I rarely react. Sometimes I have to push if it is critical or if I just have the energy to hold him accountable for something (rarely!). In one post I mentioned that our humidifier had been broken for 4 months in winter. Our daughter got a sinus infection her doctor said was likely the result of lack of humidity in the home. I had been asking my husband to fix the humidifier once every two weeks up until then. When my girl had to go on antibiotics because of his inaction, I took it up a notch. He actually closed two kitchen cupboards on his head while I talked. Talk about avoidance - physically blocking me out! That toddler-type reaction really blew my mind. I told him he had until the next morning to fix it or I was going to call to get it replaced at any cost. So basically if a situation he is avoiding merits an ultimatum like that, I will go there if I have to.
I agree with your statement about your wife... there is nothing I can say to him that will change his heart and make him see or care about my feelings. Untreated and in denial, he simply can't or won't.
I don't react anymore
Submitted by adhd32 on
C, I no longer react because unless I agree, I can expect an argument, sulking, silent treatment. I have done plenty of things in the past that I now consider to have been enabling but maintaining friendships with his friends or contacting his relatives was never something I felt was my responsibility. H would love to have parties and people over but he doesn't help and I no longer have the energy to entertain. And the state of our home is embarrassing with all the half finished projects. I told him in the past that he was welcome to have anyone over but not to expect me to do ALL the inviting, cooking, cleaning, setting up, cleaning up, while he acted like the big host and treated me like a caterer. If he wanted help I was available but I would not take on all the work while he set up chairs and bought ice and acted like he did everything. So in his brain, the fact that I won't take on all the responsibility anymore translates to I am the reason he doesn't see his friends. No more reactions from me, l just say ok, if that is what you think. H will go to any length to avoid having to self examine and own his lack of communication and commitment to his friends and family.
Thanks Ladies.....We can learn from one another!
Submitted by c ur self on
All three of you made great points about how to deal with avoidance (adhd) selfish human behaviors in general....We share a lot of the same experiences...(A whole lot ;).....Have a blessed day!
c
Quote
Submitted by rainbow on
Your post reminded me of one of my favorite quotes of all time. Michael J. Fox said, "my happiness grows in direct proportion to my acceptance, and in inverse proportion to my expectations."
When I first ran across the quote several years ago I was having some very serious health issues. It helped me look at my life from the perspective of "how can I make the most of what I have and be joyful," versus mourning the things I could never have or be able to do.
I'll try to keep this motto in mind regarding my relationship with my ADHD partner - though I do feel it's different because having him in my life is my choice, a conscious decision I made (and continue to make), whereas the state of my health is only my choice to a certain degree.
It was the pain of my own growth that has led me here rainbow...
Submitted by c ur self on
I plan on living for ever, (eternal life) I know that this fleshly life is only a tiny tiny speck of that.....But, I also know that as God's Son, I should be enjoying the fruit of his Spirit... His Spirit that is present with me in this present life...Love, Joy, Peace, Goodness, Gentleness, Patience, Kindness, Faithfulness, & Self Control...But my desire to battle (expectations) my W's life, caused & still causes me to quench the Spirit...So some where along this painful road I have been lead to (accept) others as they are....It has nothing to do with what they are pursuing in this life....I just have come to realize the only real and positive impact that I will ever have on my W, or anyone else, is when I'm experiencing the abundant life that only comes when I'm lead by the Holy Spirit.....
King David said it this way....Psalms 23 verse 1....The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want....
When I find myself filled with worldly wants, I find myself equally filled with expectations....
c
Big time anxious and avoidant behaviors in my ex.
Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on
Phone calls or text messages from anyone he didn't want to deal with were ignored. Didn't matter if it was me, his estranged wife, his siblings, bill collectors ... whatever. Could be a simple question or a huge problem that needed real resolution.
Difficult conversations had the same reaction. He could not find a way to simply ask his siblings not to invite his estranged wife to functions anymore without letting him know ahead of time. He could not manage employees who were under performing. Friends of his wanted him to take a trip (that I had an issue with) and instead of making a decision one way or the other he ignored them until it was so late that they were angry with him. He also ignored the woman he was casually dating before me instead of just telling her he did not want to continue. (I didn't know this until much later) The majority of discussions that I tried to have with him just went around and around in circles until I gave up.
On the rare occasion that he did have to face something he didn't want to deal with he would either become panicky (visibly shaking, unable to make eye contact, strained speech) or hostile (snappish, huffing and puffing, condescending, defensive), or both.
If you tried to force accountability and he couldn't get you to back off somehow.. he would run. He walked out of our therapists office, he broke up with me one time before we finally ended it for good and during our final-final blowout he avoided me for 3 months (would only communicate via email) before I finally said forget it we're done. When he had to face me to pick up his things from my house he had what I can only describe as a total meltdown.
I could go on and on... I have issues with anxiety myself so on some level I get it but this was just impossible to deal with.