The proper place of porn in a marrage

Hi I am a very very adhd husband and I watch a lot of porn but there are rules. I have been married for 3 years and this is what works for us like  a charm

 

1. no interacting with real people, no live cams, nothing, do not interact with a live person

2. never put porn before sex if it is 9 pm and you want to rub one out, ask are we going to hook up tonight if so wait, always put sex with your wife before porn

3. porn is a tool in our marriage its is an outlet for my extreme and unhealthy desire(it is better that you do not know them) as well as my high sex drive (2 to 3 times a day)

4.   It should not come before your husband's family obligations

 

these are what work for me, if at any time your husband would rather watch porn then be with you there is an issue

 

sadly, this one of our biggest issues

my husband, who has ADHD,   is addicted to porn and also has no desire for sex.  He tells me everyday how beautiful he think's I am, we kiss and hug....but we no longer connect in the bedroom.  We are at the point where when we have sex, it's....lacking.  He feels disconnected and he's told me he feel's "forced" to have sex.  I've tried lingerie, being coy, flat out asking, not asking at all= waiting for him to make a move (because he said it feels forced like he has to and he'd like to initiate but at this point, our fifth year of marriage there is no sex... if we have sex it's because I "hop on top" while he's sleeping....sometimes he doesn't even wake up.

He watches porn often.  He'll go on stints without but then he'll go back to.  Watching porn in general is not a bad thing.  But I feel unloved...in the  bedroom only, I feel he's being selfish... why does he get to rub one out and satisfy himself whenever he wants but he won't do more the cuddle or kiss me (though I do appreciate that)

He's on meds but often forgets, doesn't take them, or self-medicates that day.  His sleep schedule is non-exisitant...his ADHD has him up or asleep at all hours or the day and night in a random way.   His "diet" is impulsive and very unhealthy, if he wants it he eat's it...he's been working on it a little bit but it doesn't help much when you sleep till noon then only eat a fast food meal from jack in the box all day...even if is a chicken fajita pita.

On some levels he's improved but on other's he seemed to have lost his  spark or desire in life in general...not just the bedroom.

He just stopped going to college (in the middle of the quarter) because social anxiety was too much

We go out for date nights but always a movie and dinner...nothing social or with other couples

we are both inroverted and he has a hard time connecting and relaxing around people.  It helps that I'm there I think but he'd rather not go out.

 

I'm glad you and your wife were able to setup boundaries that you both respect and follow. 

I don't think my husband does live-chats or anything with real women online  just downloading videos.

But he definetaly puts porn before his love life and wife....I'm finding it selfish, and almost cruel but I've gotten to the point where I don't care anymore.

I don't think ADHD is as often the porn problem as...

I have seen every reason in the book be given for why porn has NOTHING to do with a woman simply being insufficient in bed. Either by lack of frequency or differences in tastes.

There is a lot of confusion between 'causality' and 'correlation'. There might be a higher incidence of porn viewing by ADHD but is is causality or correlation?  

Either way, it's too easy to blame it on ADHD and never take a good look at what the REAL problem is. I know of MANY men who do not have ADHD who view porn because their wife is lame in bed. There is a cultural belief that sensual sex is connected sex. That might be true for women but I would submit that it's generally the opposite for men. Men want violent movies, injury prone football games and fishing with buddies where no words are exchanged. To think that a man connects during sensual sex is absurd given the general nature of men. If you want your man to have sex over porn, offer him a man's sex at least 50% of the time. Make is wild, kinky and athletic. No sensuality at all.

I would submit that any man, ADHD or not... if he were given sex that HE likes and has testosterone as the theme rather than a bucket full of estrogen, then you will have a man who wants sex over porn.

I see that some women think lingerie is the answer or simply asking for sex. You don't get it at all if you try these things. Firstly, you are barely going beyond passivity in bed and secondly, you are still rubbing a ton of estrogen on the event. 

Buy a sex swing, get wild in kinky and be an animal in bed. That's what men want. They want HOT sex where anything goes. Not a bunch of rules to protect your emotions. Let that be 50% of the time and the other 50% make it about his pleasure.

 

If a man wants an animal in

If a man wants an animal in bed, he should sleep with a cow. Women are human beings and we deserve to have our sexuality included and considered in every sex act we take part in. I don't agree that we need to jump through hoops to keep men happy because they have conditioned themselves to enjoy violent and hateful sex acts through watching porn. Porn is not sex, it is manufactured to make money. No one cares what kind of sex you have or if you have it, they just want your money. Sex acts in porn are constructed and have little if anything to do with reality. Men don't want reality, they live in a fantasy world most of the time and get violent and angry if they don't get to act out their fantasies or when women and others do not conform to what they demand because they have been conditioned like Pavlov's dogs. Male sexuality is not authentic, it is taught by porn. And men buy right into it, and then many times coerce women into it as well. Men think their needs trump anyone else's. Men also have sex with dogs, pork chops and picnic tables, so asking a human being to put aside her own sexual self and her needs to bow down to your excessive testosterone and brainwashing is appalling. I feel sorry for any woman who puts up with that crap. 

Men worship and are mastered by their own penis. Pride, power, penis. That's what men are about. And they whine like a child without a toy if they don't get what they want. 

Porn has no place in a marriage. If you want other women, go find them. See how that works out for you. Bringing in a psychologically damaging item and philosophy into your marriage and one that completely denies your wife's feelings and desires is unconscionable. A marriage is a partnership. If you really can't respect the other human being in your relationship because your penis controls you, you should never have married and don't deserve the comforts that marriage affords. 

Let's also talk about emotions. Men are utterly and completely controlled by their emotions. Every decision is made based on their feelings of ego and lust. If these are not satisfied, the emotion of anger takes over. Men are hostile and violent when they don't get what they want (picture a 2 year old having a tantrum.) Man inherently hates woman because woman has the vagina he wants but he has to put up with her actually being a human being and having these pesky rules Dave speaks of : "Not a bunch of rules to protect your emotions." So man gets violent and tries to coerce and convince a woman that she actually LOVES and gets turned on by his pleasures. Which isn't real or true, but a thoroughly conditioned response since female sexuality has been treated as a non-entity and not important.

Men want everything to revolve around themselves, hence Dave's post where 50% actually equals 100% in his favor. Men want "man sex" and they should get it from another man who can understand their needs. Don't involve women if you're that needy. Go to the source where you can watch man porn and have man time together and man's sex together. I am serious. No one will ever understand your needs like another man, and if you're that unwilling to respect a female at all (her desires are just an annoyance or obstacle, she is always the problem because she's not conforming to what you want, etc.) then please go have sex with the men who can give you exactly what you need. Who is more aggressive and athletic than another man? He can be as kinky as you want, he will never find what you want weird, he will probably never deny you anything since he'll enjoy it as well. And no buckets of estrogen ANYWHERE, just pure 1000% testosterone and manliness. What could possibly go wrong?

There is nothing wrong with

There is nothing wrong with 'man sex'. It's all just style and there is NO morally high ground that makes one better than the other. What you are suggesting is that ONLY women get what they want. For the record, I've had a women ask me to NOT be sensual. They like it animalistic, so it's really just a personal preference and NOT a morally better way.

Take a look at what you are saying. YOU suggest that all sex be female sex. You are the one saying you get it all your way. Animal sex is not bad... it's not good... it's just a style that you may not enjoy. What if your man does not enjoy sensual sex? I know women who don't... does that make them evil or wrong? No, just individuals with personal preferences. 

The problem is that you use these specious arguments to get it all your way. Do you have animal sex 50% of the time? probably not, so who is actually being selfish here? you are.

Where do YOU give your man what he needs? Oh, it's the 'I have a vagina so I get it all' attitude... Estrogen-centric. It's not the men who are needy. Most men would easily go 50/50 making sure you got what you wanted 50% of the time. It's you who says that you get it your way 100% of the time. 

So what about women who WANT animal sex? Are they evil too? Or is there some exclusion rule you have for that? 

Maybe you should get off your high horse and meet men in the middle. Have some wild sex... and also have sensual sex. Meet EACH OTHERS needs. Quid Pro Quo... so to speak.

I think your logic is tragically flawed and 100% selfish. If not, where is a man's needs in your post? It's nowhere... you are asserting that it's all about what you want and no compromise or meeting in the middle. If I am wrong, where is it? What line? It's not there... it's all about YOU.

 

>There is nothing wrong with

>There is nothing wrong with 'man sex'. It's all just style and there is NO morally high ground that makes one better than the other.

That's what you have to keep telling yourself because you know you're wrong. 

>What you are suggesting is that ONLY women get what they want.

Let's ask ourselves if men OR women know what women want. Do we? Or is what women want always connected to something MEN want? Women's sexuality has been co-opted by men so that no one knows what an authentic female sexuality looks like. And porn is 100% for men. So sounds like when you use it (which you admit you love to do), it's 100% all about you and your peen.

>For the record, I've had a women ask me to NOT be sensual. They like it animalistic, so it's really just a personal preference and NOT a morally better way.

Thanks for validating what I just said above. Have you actually read the APA Task Force paper on the objectification of women and girls?

>YOU suggest that all sex be female sex.

How about we figure out what "female sex" IS first, eh?

>You are the one saying you get it all your way.

How can it be my way if women's sexuality has been taught by men who have been taught by porn which is manufactured to exploit him in the first place?

>Animal sex is not bad... it's not good... it's just a style that you may not enjoy.

Right, it's up there with choking another human being with your peen, ejaculating or peeing on another human, and treating that person like your basic dog. 

>What if your man does not enjoy sensual sex?

First, I don't own a man. Second, if he never enjoys sensual sex, then he should not be having sex with me. He can go find a dog or another man or a brainwashed woman who thinks it's her purpose in life to fulfill his wee wee. 

>I know women who don't... does that make them evil or wrong? No, just individuals with personal preferences. 

Or brainwashed by men's sexuality that dictates how they should feel and what they enjoy. Do some research on this. There's a lot out there. But then, you'd have to actually care about women's perspectives first and you don't. 

>The problem is that you use these specious arguments to get it all your way.

And you seem hell bent on having sex in the only way you know how, which is like a dog. 

>Do you have animal sex 50% of the time? probably not, so who is actually being selfish here? you are.

If a man expects a blow job, he's 100% selfish. If he wants to ejaculate on a female, it's 100% selfish. Begging for sodomy and anal and many things make the man 100% selfish. Trying to reproduce things you see in films is 100% selfish. Insisting that sex to a man is toileting act that doesn't need to have another person's feelings or thoughts involved is inherently 100% selfish. Almost all porn is based on the male's pleasure and ends when he's ejaculated. The "money shot" is the part of the film men watch porn for, because they love to watch other penises ejaculating. Porn is made "with a man's mind in mind" (not my quote but I can find who said it if you want). Which means OMG, 100% selfish again. What do you know? How does that keep happening? 

Your whiny post above was 100% selfish as well, insisting that you needed a f-ton of testosterone (the hormone that is making you bald and killing you slowly, btw) and you hate estrogen. Perhaps you are barking up the wrong tree if you're that allergic to estrogen, KWIM?

>Where do YOU give your man what he needs?

I don't own a man, Slavery was abolished long ago. People are not property, and I would dare to guess that this kind of speech is part of your problem. You don't own a human being, they are not yours to make demands of to serve your out of control penis. 

>Oh, it's the 'I have a vagina so I get it all' attitude... Estrogen-centric.

Ah there we go again, the estrogen panic. You're definitely trying to have sex with the wrong gender.

>It's not the men who are needy.

Men are desperate for sex and porn. They are so needy they have sex with foodstuffs and dead animals. It is historically the male of the species that tries to stick his penis into anything he can, living, dead or inanimate to begin with. Men are incredibly whiny when it comes to sex and feel it is their toy and they are entitled to it. They're ANGRY that women have the vagina that they so desperately want. It drives them crazy. They can't think logically. Studies have even been performed that show that a man can not concentrate after he's looked at a pretty woman. Men are the ones who drive the entire porn industry because they're the main consumer of it. They're the main customer of prostitutes and other sex-related services and products. Men are needy beyond belief. And they tantrum when they don't get what they think they're entitled to. And if they don't tantrum, they resort to rape because how dare a woman withhold what they want.

>Most men would easily go 50/50 making sure you got what you wanted 50% of the time. It's you who says that you get it your way 100% of the time. 

What's "my way"? Have we decided on what female sexuality looks like yet when it hasn't been contaminated by male thoughts and feelings and desires?

>So what about women who WANT animal sex? Are they evil too? Or is there some exclusion rule you have for that? 

That has been addressed above. 

>Maybe you should get off your high horse and meet men in the middle. Have some wild sex... and also have sensual sex. Meet EACH OTHERS needs. Quid Pro Quo... so to speak.

Oh do you mean get down to their level. Why can't men raise themselves above the status of common canine? Would it kill them to do so? Sounds like it. They're just too needy and have no ability to do so, so they demand the woman sink to their level. 

>I think your logic is tragically flawed and 100% selfish. If not, where is a man's needs in your post?

You were discussing a man's neediness, I was discussing the fact that female sexuality has been tainted by men and they really don't even care. I'm not very concerned with male neediness, but you are with your fear and aversion to estrogen (which you have in your body right now thanks to your mom and your X chromosome, btw. You also have mammary glands and can lactate, bet you didn't even know that. You started out as the female template in the womb and your Y chromosome is about half the size of X and quite shriveled like a flaccid micropenis.)

>It's nowhere... you are asserting that it's all about what you want and no compromise or meeting in the middle.

Says the man who freaks out when he's near estrogen but can't help the fact that he desperately desires to be near it, too. Can't win, can ya.

>If I am wrong, where is it? What line? It's not there... it's all about YOU.

And I never once talked about myself or my sex life. 

Reading material:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Pornland-How-Porn-Hijacked-Sexuality/dp/0807001546

http://www.pamelapaul.com/book/pornified/

"Dworkin suggests that men have the power of sex although they assert the opposite. The carnality of women is said to be the defining characteristic of women. Women have sexual power because the erection is involuntary and a woman is always the presumed cause, therefore the man is helpless and the woman powerful. The male reacts to a stimulus for which he is not responsible. Whatever he does, he does out of a provocation from a female – she is the temptress. According to Dworkin, men force women to become that thing that causes erection and then holds himself helpless when he is aroused by her. His fury when she is not that thing is intense and powerful."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography:_Men_Possessing_Women

http://educoup.com/2013/04/20/the-disease-of-sexual-objectification-insi...

 

>There is nothing wrong with

>There is nothing wrong with 'man sex'. It's all just style and there is NO morally high ground that makes one better than the other.

That's what you have to keep telling yourself because you know you're wrong. 

>What you are suggesting is that ONLY women get what they want.

Let's ask ourselves if men OR women know what women want. Do we? Or is what women want always connected to something MEN want? Women's sexuality has been co-opted by men so that no one knows what an authentic female sexuality looks like. And porn is 100% for men. So sounds like when you use it (which you admit you love to do), it's 100% all about you and your peen.

>For the record, I've had a women ask me to NOT be sensual. They like it animalistic, so it's really just a personal preference and NOT a morally better way.

Thanks for validating what I just said above. Have you actually read the APA Task Force paper on the objectification of women and girls?

>YOU suggest that all sex be female sex.

How about we figure out what "female sex" IS first, eh?

>You are the one saying you get it all your way.

How can it be my way if women's sexuality has been taught by men who have been taught by porn which is manufactured to exploit him in the first place?

>Animal sex is not bad... it's not good... it's just a style that you may not enjoy.

Right, it's up there with choking another human being with your peen, ejaculating or peeing on another human, and treating that person like your basic dog. 

>What if your man does not enjoy sensual sex?

First, I don't own a man. Second, if he never enjoys sensual sex, then he should not be having sex with me. He can go find a dog or another man or a brainwashed woman who thinks it's her purpose in life to fulfill his wee wee. 

>I know women who don't... does that make them evil or wrong? No, just individuals with personal preferences. 

Or brainwashed by men's sexuality that dictates how they should feel and what they enjoy. Do some research on this. There's a lot out there. But then, you'd have to actually care about women's perspectives first and you don't. 

>The problem is that you use these specious arguments to get it all your way.

And you seem hell bent on having sex in the only way you know how, which is like a dog. 

>Do you have animal sex 50% of the time? probably not, so who is actually being selfish here? you are.

If a man expects a blow job, he's 100% selfish. If he wants to ejaculate on a female, it's 100% selfish. Begging for sodomy and anal and many things make the man 100% selfish. Trying to reproduce things you see in films is 100% selfish. Insisting that sex to a man is toileting act that doesn't need to have another person's feelings or thoughts involved is inherently 100% selfish. Almost all porn is based on the male's pleasure and ends when he's ejaculated. The "money shot" is the part of the film men watch porn for, because they love to watch other penises ejaculating. Porn is made "with a man's mind in mind" (not my quote but I can find who said it if you want). Which means OMG, 100% selfish again. What do you know? How does that keep happening? 

Your whiny post above was 100% selfish as well, insisting that you needed a f-ton of testosterone (the hormone that is making you bald and killing you slowly, btw) and you hate estrogen. Perhaps you are barking up the wrong tree if you're that allergic to estrogen, KWIM?

>Where do YOU give your man what he needs?

I don't own a man, Slavery was abolished long ago. People are not property, and I would dare to guess that this kind of speech is part of your problem. You don't own a human being, they are not yours to make demands of to serve your out of control penis. 

>Oh, it's the 'I have a vagina so I get it all' attitude... Estrogen-centric.

Ah there we go again, the estrogen panic. You're definitely trying to have sex with the wrong gender.

>It's not the men who are needy.

Men are desperate for sex and porn. They are so needy they have sex with foodstuffs and dead animals. It is historically the male of the species that tries to stick his penis into anything he can, living, dead or inanimate to begin with. Men are incredibly whiny when it comes to sex and feel it is their toy and they are entitled to it. They're ANGRY that women have the vagina that they so desperately want. It drives them crazy. They can't think logically. Studies have even been performed that show that a man can not concentrate after he's looked at a pretty woman. Men are the ones who drive the entire porn industry because they're the main consumer of it. They're the main customer of prostitutes and other sex-related services and products. Men are needy beyond belief. And they tantrum when they don't get what they think they're entitled to. And if they don't tantrum, they resort to rape because how dare a woman withhold what they want.

>Most men would easily go 50/50 making sure you got what you wanted 50% of the time. It's you who says that you get it your way 100% of the time. 

What's "my way"? Have we decided on what female sexuality looks like yet when it hasn't been contaminated by male thoughts and feelings and desires?

>So what about women who WANT animal sex? Are they evil too? Or is there some exclusion rule you have for that? 

That has been addressed above. 

>Maybe you should get off your high horse and meet men in the middle. Have some wild sex... and also have sensual sex. Meet EACH OTHERS needs. Quid Pro Quo... so to speak.

Oh do you mean get down to their level. Why can't men raise themselves above the status of common canine? Would it kill them to do so? Sounds like it. They're just too needy and have no ability to do so, so they demand the woman sink to their level. 

>I think your logic is tragically flawed and 100% selfish. If not, where is a man's needs in your post?

You were discussing a man's neediness, I was discussing the fact that female sexuality has been tainted by men and they really don't even care. I'm not very concerned with male neediness, but you are with your fear and aversion to estrogen (which you have in your body right now thanks to your mom and your X chromosome, btw. You also have mammary glands and can lactate, bet you didn't even know that. You started out as the female template in the womb and your Y chromosome is about half the size of X and quite shriveled like a flaccid micropenis.)

>It's nowhere... you are asserting that it's all about what you want and no compromise or meeting in the middle.

Says the man who freaks out when he's near estrogen but can't help the fact that he desperately desires to be near it, too. Can't win, can ya.

>If I am wrong, where is it? What line? It's not there... it's all about YOU.

And I never once talked about myself or my sex life. 

Reading material:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Pornland-How-Porn-Hijacked-Sexuality/dp/0807001546

http://www.pamelapaul.com/book/pornified/

"Dworkin suggests that men have the power of sex although they assert the opposite. The carnality of women is said to be the defining characteristic of women. Women have sexual power because the erection is involuntary and a woman is always the presumed cause, therefore the man is helpless and the woman powerful. The male reacts to a stimulus for which he is not responsible. Whatever he does, he does out of a provocation from a female – she is the temptress. According to Dworkin, men force women to become that thing that causes erection and then holds himself helpless when he is aroused by her. His fury when she is not that thing is intense and powerful."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography:_Men_Possessing_Women

http://educoup.com/2013/04/20/the-disease-of-sexual-objectification-insi...

 

A few corrections

Firstly, I did not post the original post. I certainly would not have used the phrase 'rub one out'... so in case you think I fully support that post, I don't

You use a lot of associated value in your arguments. Animals sex is not choking or anal sex. I did not say that and associating that with my post is flawed. Animal sex is an attitude, not a specific action. I do not condone doing things to another human that they find hurtful in any way. That applies to making a man act like a woman.

As to your argument that animal sex is lowering and female sex need risen to... specious. Associative argumentation. By phrasing it this way you assign moral value to things that have none in an attempt to devalue what you do not like. This is not me getting mad this is debate 101. This is the same as a woman who once tore the clothes off her man in her youth, and gave him a BJ then proclaimed her love for him... all of this on her own accord... then to later in life say that a man who wants this is a pig... the only thing that has changed is the woman's libido. The man did not suddenly become a pig because her desire for animal sex changed. 

I can give you thousands of examples of men who's wives 'screwed them senseless' to quote one guy I know... only to be later told that that VERY act SHE wanted and did on her own was now 'him being a pig' and to quote you, lowering to a man's level. This is called 'moving the goal post'. 

And no, I don't think I am wrong in any way shape or form. I am not lowering myself to do the things my wife WANTED the first year of marriage. Just because she changed, the entire universal value system did not change with her. It wasn't bad then and it's not bad now. 

Im not asking for anal sex, Im not asking for choking... I'm saying STOP making it 100% about women. Under scrutiny, nothing you said holds up. 

Also, I'd go up against you any day of the week about male and female physiology. Did you know that sex and love have no biological connection in women? did you know that men cannot produce Oxytocin without sex? Want to discuss the reticuloendothelial system? How about we discuss how peptides work in regard to epigenetics? Really? you want to go a round with me on brains????

Learn to make cogent arguments. 

All frustration aside, men bond and connect differently. The entire process looks and feels different than with women. We aren't cold and heartless when we want animal sex. In fact, we are bonding and falling madly in love because of it. Do you think buddies that would die for each other bond like women do? Does that mean that they aren't as close or bonded? How dare you assert that male bonding and love look exactly like women. Men die for each other and deeply, deeply care about each other but it will NEVER look like women bonding and loving. 

That is what i am saying... animal sex IS men bonding and loving and connecting. It just looks different. 

You have been conditioned to think that a woman's way is right... and all I need to do is wait for this to pass I suppose. If you could see the heart of a man, you would see how deeply we love and care and bond... but it's different than women. Two guys can fight and bond for life. So, by forcing your man to ONLY bond like a woman, what you are really doing is not allowing him to actually bond. 

You will NEVER hear a man talk about that sensual night of love making... he will FOREVER pine for the woman he had sex with in the elevator. So keep pushing your agenda while your man thinks of the woman in the elevator that wasn't you.

 

 

oh please

Dude seriously? Rubbing a bunch of estrogen on the event? You know that estrogen is the female hormone right, and if you like women you therefore HAVE TO like their estrogen - ?? 

Here's my advice for men. TAKE A SHOWER. That's it. 99% of women want it bad. Really really bad. But for god's sake TAKE A SHOWER guys. And brush your teeth too. 

Do that, and our 'passivity' will disappear. 

I think your numbers are wrong

My wife is the one who has really bad hygiene. If we travel back in time a bit, to a time when I was fit, trim, clean, sharp and took care of 99% of the house... I can show you how looking good, smelling good or any other trait is pointless. I jumped through all the hoops. I would work long hours to make more money AND do most of the housework. And I looked good, kept trim and neat... what you are saying is bull for many men. In your case it's probably WAY true, so I don't want to take that away from you.

But, I know many men who are all that and a bag of chips and their wives are just checked out sexually. 

My wife can wear a pad for a day and a half. Her breath and body smell bad. 

And no, we don't have to like estrogen. haha. Kidding (need levity at the moment)

There are a LOT of women who simply have low sex drives and suck as wives. Let's just accept that. I'd say it's as demographically true as men sucking. People can suck... it doesn't matter what their gender is.

So these men who have washed up, brushed their teeth, cooked dinner, cleaned the house, taken care of the kids, made good money, stayed fit and trim... and their wife is still oblivious to sex... THESE men deserve porn. All moral arguments aside... They did NOTHING wrong. So stop judging all men who view porn as smelly, deficient men. 

You see, I was the guy who thought I was the problem. I upped my game. I got fitter, cleaner, nicer, more helpful. Hell, I did MOST of the housework. My adult kids still tell me I was both mom and dad... And my wife was checked out. So yeah, I watched porn. I could give a flying crap who doesn't like that. Do what I did and get brushed off and then care... 

So please, stop berating men who may have a fully legitimate complaint that their wives suck. Many do. 

>There are a LOT of women who

>There are a LOT of women who simply have low sex drives and suck as wives.

So the criteria for sucking as a WIFE is having a low sex drive. Gotcha.

>So these men who have washed up, brushed their teeth, cooked dinner, cleaned the house, taken care of the kids, made good money, stayed fit and trim... and their wife is still oblivious to sex... THESE men deserve porn.

Dude, by the way you describe it *I* deserve the porn. But hey, where's the porn for me? Oh, that's right, nowhere because all porn is all about the males, even so-called "female" porn. Interestingly, in "female" porn or "porn for women" the act still ends with the penis ejaculating and the woman is not shown having an orgasm, much less showing her having an orgasm and him NOT having one which is par for the course in heterosexual porn. Women rarely if ever have orgasms in pornography. Why? Because men don't care about women's pleasure. The only pleasure a woman gets to have is the pleasure of watching HIM being pleasured. And sadly, men are thus taught that women love gobbling their semen or licking their sweaty scrotums or being choked with their peens. They actually are gullible enough to believe that THIS is female sexuality. 

>And my wife was checked out. So yeah, I watched porn. I could give a flying crap who doesn't like that. Do what I did and get brushed off and then care... 

I know A LOT about porn because I have watched a lot of porn. My father brought it into the house when I was a child and boyfriends watched it as well and were always whining and begging for me to do what the paid actresses did in the films. That's like watching Superman and then buying a cape and jumping off a building. It's plain stupid and 100% selfish. 

You can't properly criticize porn if you don't know what's in it. You're never going to win an argument with me on the content of pornography. People think it's just "two people having sex" but oh, I think you know that it's definitely NOT that. 

 

I want to change the tone here...

I think we are both in a lot of pain in one regard or another and I want to respect your pain or point of view. 

Although, I know many women who love porn... yeah, the stuff you call guy porn. Not all women are like you. You aren't bad or wrong... just stop thinking you represent all women.

No one DESERVES porn... but many men are left with only porn. 

Example...

I took the day off work to clean the house, buy a few gifts for my wife and plan a dinner out. I took great pains in listening to her needs and wants and made sure I planned for that. I let her know that I had a special night planned and went to the 9s for her(i didn't tell her the 9s part). She was late as usual because she just is. I focused on her all during the meal. I told her how good looking she was, I complimented her rightfully so on her skill at work and just did it right. Later that night, she was a school marm. As usual, I had gone overboard for her and NOTHING in return. Im not even talking about sex... just nothing. I didn't exist. 

So, I initiate sex in 100% her way. I'm good at this. Not many things in life am I good at, but sex is one of the few things so suffer my confidence it's tempered with all my other flaws I am aware of. I'm at least good enough that I should have not gotten the treatment I did. 

So, I am 100% doing what she likes. So what do you think she added to sex? Anything? A compliment? Enthusiasm? Nothing... as usual... 

Before you judge me and assume all sorts of fake flaws... I rocked it that night for her. You would have approved. I've done this so many times my head hurts... and what do I get... nadda

Oh, I cook her breakfast and dinner nearly every day. Guess what happened one morning when there was a pinch too much butter on her eggs. She sat the plate on the hot element, dabbed the butter off and then yelled at me because she burned her hand because I ruined her eggs. Now ask me what she does for me... how many times has she cooked me breakfast? Dinner? Laundry? You think things here are like most homes. Not so... I do most of it... I mow, roof, fix cars, cook, clean, etc.

Do you think I can even convince her to wash up before sex... hahahahahahahaha

 

ROFL Rubbing estrogen on it.

ROFL Rubbing estrogen on it. Like we bring out a big tube of estrogen lube or something. In the meantime he's unapologetic about all the testosterone showers he wants to spray everywhere.

You've Got a Lot to Learn

I'm not going to get into a debate on porn since that's a debate you can't win.  If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.  Same as as arguing abortion....I won't touch that with a ten foot pole!   Some women like porn....other's don't  As far as what men want....speak for yourself.  As far as what women want?

The first and only rule of thumb..... Ladies first.  Love the one you're with the way she wants it. You've got it ass backwards......the reason you get passivity is because of what you put into it.....from the sound of it nothing.  Give and ye shall receive in all things that has to do with sex with a real live woman.  Didn't you ever learn that when it comes to sex.....women decide who, when, where and how unless you're a rapist? I think that's the only exception to the rule but that's highly frowned upon and that's not my idea of good sex to begin with? lol  All you can do is ask but ultimately women choose and make the final decision.  If you want them to choose the kind of sex you are talking about......you need to be a little more convincing I think.  The art of persuasion would be a better course of action taking everything I just said into consideration don't you think?

Rosy is available any time you are just like porn.  Real live women don't work that way....it takes two to Tango.  You want the kind of sex you're talking about.....heed my advise.and learn something.

I'll tell you what the real problem is.....immediate gratification.  That's the real problem.  There's only two kinds of sex where that is possible in the real world.....blow up dolls and the kind you have to pay for.

If that's all you want or need....they're available.

 

J

PS....if you keep thinking along those lines, you'll be singing this song ......"looks like it's you and me again tonight......Rosy"   (jackson browne)  just say'in:)

He believes that porn sex is

He believes that porn sex is "man sex" because that's what porn teaches men to believe. He is the successful product of the porn industry. They create a man who is dependent on "man sex" to have or enjoy sex at all. Men have actually preferred masturbating to porn than having actual sex because they have been so conditioned to enjoy it only that way. They're numb to anything else, hence the aversion to "estrogen" i.e. real human females. 

What Dave is saying is, he wants what he sees in porn to be his reality. And he and millions of other men can become violently angry because they can't have it that way because that's not how women are. He's so angry already in his responses, he's really agitated at the thought that he isn't going to get what he wants. He even used the terms "your man" signifying that people are objects to be owned and used, and he said "men...deserve porn". The word "deserve" here is telling. Men feel *entitled* to women's bodies and do not want women's feelings, thoughts, desires or heck, humanity getting in the way of satisfying their needs. 

The real problem with porn is...

I'm calling bull on a lot of this anti-porn talk. Not because I support the viewing of porn but because I think the logic used to refute it is all crap. But before you judge me at least hear me out. Most of the reply I got in my email was specious argumentation at best, verging on sophistry. 

1. Most porn use I know of in men is a RESULT of a terrible sex life. There is this misconception that MEN ALONE are responsible for sex. I know many good men who spent years doing all the right things and their wives were simply worthless in bed. There is no reason a woman can't be JUST as responsible for fostering a sexual atmosphere and making sex a priority. Instead men are supposed to jump through hoops while women hold all the power. That era has ended. What you end up with is a result of porn. I know I've tried... I do the dishes, clean, laundry, compliments, affection... all those false hoops you say men should do to get sex. Well, it's all crap. Having done all that, women still find a new excuse. They move the goal post. There are no hoops that result in sex. Even if there were, that is a very unequal relationship. What hoops does the woman jump through for sex? NADDA!

2. Women use men for emotional support. Yeah, I said it. Sex, emotional support... they are all equal needs. Placing one morally higher is again, specious. A need is a need and you can't rate them. So men are supposed to give affection without sex but women are never supposed to give sex without affection? How narcissistic are women? Me, me, me... and more me... 

Ah, hooey. I could make about 4 more points and I have done so ad nauseam. Can we PLEASE get off the estrogen centric band wagon and talk about what BOTH need to do daily for sex instead of heaping the entire thing on men? 

Keep singing that song 'The first and only rule of thumb..... Ladies first'... that era is OVER... men are done with it. Hang on to that faulty reasoning as long as you can. You might as well condone slavery or rape... because the one sided nature of what you are suggesting leads to resentment, anger, porn and many times cheating. There is no balance in what you are saying. You leave no room for men to be men. Not all sex needs to be emotional. Not all sex needs to be erotic.. Keep it even. Meet both the mans needs and the womans needs.

What women are finding out is that men can live just fine with porn or affairs or just going without sex. I think that when women realize that they have to get in the game and make a play they will realize that 'Ladies first' is a flawed and doomed way of behaving. Us first... together, compromise, meet each others needs, meet in the middle... this is balance. Not 'Ladies first'... that leads to an entitlement mentality. 

If any woman thinks that sex is all about her, she is going to eventually wind up alone. Men are simply done with that. Guys play football and that attitude will show up in the bedroom. There is NOTHING sacred about sensuality. Nothing is wrong with it either... but it's not morally better. 

I wish I could live to 200 so I can see these ancient and flawed attitudes vanish. 

"I know many good men who

"I know many good men who spent years doing all the right things and their wives were simply worthless in bed."

Define "good" and define "worthless" and define "the right things."

 

>Instead men are supposed to jump through hoops while women hold all the power.

Well, women have the vagina (and other parts) that men are desperate for. That's just biology. We also have the uterus and can become pregnant while men can walk away, so I'd say we're even. You don't get to access the vagina without jumping through some hoops because we have more to risk and lose in the sex act. Evolution, science, logic for the win.

>That era has ended.

That era is never going to end.

> There are no hoops that result in sex. Even if there were, that is a very unequal relationship. What hoops does the woman jump through for sex? NADDA!

Well because you're needy, hon. You're a man and men are extremely needy. You're also VERY angry because you think women should give you sexual access as a barter and trade for you performing like a human being. It sounds like you only relate to females by trying to manipulate them into giving you sexual access. I've read stuff like this from men before. They whine and complain. You're angry with women for having the vagina you want but can't have. So your main emotions are lust and then anger. You still haven't accepted the fact that other humans do not OWE YOU access to use their bodies.

Since men can not get past this, they created porn so they can bypass real women and just pay actresses who really need the money to do all these things for them and provide the access that they couldn't have before. Ever hear of Elliot Rodger? He had a huge problem with this very idea. 

>So men are supposed to give affection without sex but women are never supposed to give sex without affection? How narcissistic are women? Me, me, me... and more me... 

Men can't give emotional support because they have extremely limited emotions: lust, anger. Not too helpful for other humans.

>Can we PLEASE get off the estrogen centric band wagon 

Then have sex with men. Like I said, if you're looking for a shoulder to cry on, maybe a dude is your best bet. And you can have a lot of sex.

>You leave no room for men to be men. Not all sex needs to be emotional. Not all sex needs to be erotic.. Keep it even. Meet both the mans needs and the womans needs.

If men can't act like humans, then there's no room for men to have sex with women. There's always other men to use and throw away who would probably enjoy it more and appreciate your man's man act.

>that leads to an entitlement mentality. 

Tell me more about this whole "entitlement" thing. You mean like men feel entitled to use women sexually because they need an outlet instead of a human being? Like how men have tantrums and whine and complain when they don't have the manly man animal dog sex they are desperate for...

>but it's not morally better. 

You seem to think the word "moral" means something.

 

The real problem with porn is...

I'm calling bull on a lot of this anti-porn talk. Not because I support the viewing of porn but because I think the logic used to refute it is all crap. But before you judge me at least hear me out. Most of the reply I got in my email was specious argumentation at best, verging on sophistry. 

1. Most porn use I know of in men is a RESULT of a terrible sex life. There is this misconception that MEN ALONE are responsible for sex. I know many good men who spent years doing all the right things and their wives were simply worthless in bed. There is no reason a woman can't be JUST as responsible for fostering a sexual atmosphere and making sex a priority. Instead men are supposed to jump through hoops while women hold all the power. That era has ended. What you end up with is a result of porn. I know I've tried... I do the dishes, clean, laundry, compliments, affection... all those false hoops you say men should do to get sex. Well, it's all crap. Having done all that, women still find a new excuse. They move the goal post. There are no hoops that result in sex. Even if there were, that is a very unequal relationship. What hoops does the woman jump through for sex? NADDA!

2. Women use men for emotional support. Yeah, I said it. Sex, emotional support... they are all equal needs. Placing one morally higher is again, specious. A need is a need and you can't rate them. So men are supposed to give affection without sex but women are never supposed to give sex without affection? How narcissistic are women? Me, me, me... and more me... 

Ah, hooey. I could make about 4 more points and I have done so ad nauseam. Can we PLEASE get off the estrogen centric band wagon and talk about what BOTH need to do daily for sex instead of heaping the entire thing on men? 

Keep singing that song 'The first and only rule of thumb..... Ladies first'... that era is OVER... men are done with it. Hang on to that faulty reasoning as long as you can. You might as well condone slavery or rape... because the one sided nature of what you are suggesting leads to resentment, anger, porn and many times cheating. There is no balance in what you are saying. You leave no room for men to be men. Not all sex needs to be emotional. Not all sex needs to be erotic.. Keep it even. Meet both the mans needs and the womans needs.

What women are finding out is that men can live just fine with porn or affairs or just going without sex. I think that when women realize that they have to get in the game and make a play they will realize that 'Ladies first' is a flawed and doomed way of behaving. Us first... together, compromise, meet each others needs, meet in the middle... this is balance. Not 'Ladies first'... that leads to an entitlement mentality. 

If any woman thinks that sex is all about her, she is going to eventually wind up alone. Men are simply done with that. Guys play football and that attitude will show up in the bedroom. There is NOTHING sacred about sensuality. Nothing is wrong with it either... but it's not morally better. 

I wish I could live to 200 so I can see these ancient and flawed attitudes vanish. 

Wishful Thinking

First off.....I'm not judging (too be sure).  Second....I think you are fighting a losing battle and it's not with women but with what you want and social constructs and societal norms  I'm talking in context to the one person you are having sex with at a time unless you have more than one to worry about.  Taking on all women (and their differences) and society at large is already one more than I can handle or go to battle with than I already have (thank you very much lol) 

In the fantasy in my head....I want the same thing you want but that's just it.  It's a fantacy and is not in the real world that we live in today (right now)  The problem about sexual fantasies.....they stop becoming fun once you actually have them for real.  Keep those with the porn and live in the real world with real women.  It's not a solo affair.  I wasn't kidding when I said it take two to Tango.  The best sex is when both people are enjoying themselves at the same time.  It's a dance not an obligation or duty one person at a time.  That can work too....but if you want what you want and it involves another person....guilt, obligation or duty is the wrong way about getting and even balance or hot wild sex with w reckless abandon.  There is a thing called free will getting in the way here for you.  That's what you are really fighting up against in your ideal.  It is your ideal by the way....not all men.  How can you know what all men or woman want in the first place?  That would be kind of like mind reading....know what I mean?    I hear you.....I get what you want.....I'm just saying that you are going about it the wrong way.

FYI:  Ladies first was more from a biological stand point ( the big O )....but it works in other ways too.  I've heard a common complaint from women who seem to all agree on one thing.......the meat thermometer approach is usually no fun for them (as it was put to me by a woman...."checking the roast" sorry....that was a quote ).  You want good sex ( the kind you like).....the other person needs to be enjoying it at the same time.  It's a dance....not a solo act.  The more fun and better you are at doing it (for them)....the more often and more they will keep coming back and knocking at your door. 

That was the point I was making with you.

 

J

I like you and what you are saying.

I really, really appreciate your approach. I'm not in complete agreement with you but your mentality is very cool. Thanks.

Let me toss a few things in the air and get your impressions. I never mind being challenged. There is always room for improvement.

Firstly, I am not fighting a losing battle. I've thrown in the towel. If my wife is not willing to ALSO meet my male needs, then it's all one sided and will fail. This is the case.

My wife and I were swingers and before you jump all over that, I did that for you. I don't swing AT ALL anymore and I am not happy it happened. But it did and it's over. Nothing has changed for her... she is the same as she was before swinging... checked out. During that time I realized that many women are AMAZING in bed. I certainly don't want it to be all about me. I don't want it devoid of sensuality... but I also don't want it so onesidedly feminine in style. This is what I feel you are proposing. It's like you are saying, hey, women will withhold sex if you don't 100% capitulate to their selfish needs. Well, let them withhold. I can go years without... I'll wait until they want to meet in the middle and ALSO value me as a man with a man's tastes and desires. Otherwise, it is the woman who should go shack up with another woman. I think I can make a solid case that it is I who is willing to meet in the middle and my wife is selfish. She wants me to forget my style and tastes and only do what she wants. I propose doing both styles.

I'm a pretty smart guy. Flaws and all, I can at least see when I'm an ass and try to correct it. I am not getting that from my wife. She thinks that if it passes through her head, it's gospel... and not subject to introspection and compromise. So you tell me how balanced it is for the woman to get 100% of what she wants and the man to get nearly 0%? What I am proposing is that sometimes you have sex and you do it completely for the other person. Throw rose peddles down and play soft music and I will never naturally keep an erection. It's just not me from head to toe. But I never assert that she should do what I want 100% of the time like she does. 

If you are saying that 'effective' success requires complete capitulation, I will kindly decline. I don't need sex that bad. If the only way my wife can have sex is 100% on her terms, she can cheat, leave or go without, because I don't  NEED sex. yeah, I could theoretically have sex 3 times a day, but not if I have to be used. If I am to be absent from the bedroom and only allowed to be like her, then that is used. 

I think you will find increasingly that this idea that if you want to get laid you have to give in is a dead idea. The new generation of men are done with that. They would rather go without than have a woman completely dictate sex. So, I submit that women will learn that they have to bend a little or be left alone. It will happen, I only need to live long enough to see it happen.

My goal here is NOT to get laid. Like I said earlier... I was a swinger and got enough of that then. I was with women who were wild and creative. The issue here is that my wife is low sex. Being more sensual doesn't change that. I'm not looking for getting laid more often. I want a woman who sees me, likes me for being me and is willing to meet me in the middle. That means sometimes we have wild, erotic sex. And then sometimes she may want warm sensual sex. If there is no balance than I am 100% ok with there being NO sex. 

A few things you may not know... I am not like most guys. I take care of the house, do that mans work and cover her when her ADD keeps her behind the curve. I don't fuss. I don't tell her she is failing... I just close the doors, turn off the lights, prep and make dinner, pick up the kids when she forgets... and when I give her anniversary gifts and she does nothing, I understand that's how it is... 100% about her. Not because she doesn't care but because she can't care... So when you tell me I have to now give up everything I like about sex so she can be even more self centric... well, I draw the line because I simply will have zero desire for yet another 'all about her' moment.

 

Yeah he did a lot of angry

Yeah he did a lot of angry emoting to just get to the point, which is he feels like most of us do in that we put in a lot of effort and get little in return. 

And back to my point

This assertion that women hold the power is the reason men turn to porn. The removal of that power. 

Thus the reason I think women will realize that they no longer have this power and must compromise. 

Take a look at the asian cultures. They can't get people to have sex. Porn and vibrators replace all of these assertions. 

If we remove all of this power and people just please each other without all this moral high ground bull, connection happens.

 

Until then, I think you will see more men giving up on sex with women until women change.

 

This Is the Core of Poor Communication

for everyone including me.  I get really frustrated with my wife who does the same thing.  Somewhere in there is the message she wants to convey....but I have to either wade through a lot of venting or out of context rambling to find it so I can respond to it in the first place.  I know it's in there somewhere? lol

or.....

as she did just a short while ago,  say something in short hand and assume I can read her mind?

In the first scenario.....I'm so frustrated and defensive before I get to the message.....now I have an attitude and my tone shows it.  She gets pissy because she thinks it's about the things she said.  I'm just frustrated that I had to go through this with her.   No offense, codrrdave.....I do this too (I'm the one with ADHD)....but my wife makes a specialty of not being very clear and making multiple points all at once.  It becomes a mine field just to step into!  yikes!

In the second one that just happened.....I responded to what little she did say and started asking questions.  She got irritated and said " I thought I was pretty clear" assuming she had said it in a way that I could understand.  I understood exactly what she said....I don't want X because Y will happen.  The problem with her logic is that I needed to know A through W before X made any sense.

And for the record.....I've been where he's been before and it sucks. My ex wife was on antidepressants for years and her sex drive and libido dried up and disappeared. I was lucky to have sex once every few months.  At the end of our marriage.....it was once a year.  I feel your pain dude.....I used porn during that time too....a lot!  If you remain faithful as I did and have no other outlet to turn to.....I agree.....it may not be the full meal deal but at least it's a slice of the pie and better than nothing.  In the case where one spouse cannot or will not perform.  I don't see anything wrong with it especially then.  Outside of that.....if both partners are Okay with (whatever it is)  and don't have a problem (and it's not creating a problem)....then anything goes in my book.  It's all good.  If my wife wanted me to dress up like a milk man in a white uniform and hat and come to the front door.....I may feel a little silly but.....what the hay.  I'll try anything once. lol

  I've also been on the other side of it and that sucks too in a different way.  Pressure anxiety is a tough one to deal with as well.  " Again??.....Woman, I just gave you good lov'in!!" LOL  Just so you know.  I didn't want to pick on you but figuring out what it is that is at the heart of the problem before you speak is a problem for us with ADHD.  What I just said about being frustrated...not in what my wife is saying but HOW she gets her point made is really the source for most of our issues together.  I do it too by the way but I think I already said that.  It's part of our brains working faster than our mouths at times.  Getting  those emotions and logic all together at the same time can be difficult at best:)

 

J

 

 

J

Right...

The females in my social circle would not respond like this guy's wife does.   In fact, the big complain amongst my female friends is that their H's do so little at home during the work-week, that the wives are exhausted once it's bedtime.  The women have either worked all day at a job, or worked all day taking care of children, and then their work continued as they made dinner and cleaned up, and then took care of more kid stuff and laundry....all while their H's were mostly resting after their "long day at work."   

 

Of course, their H's are raring to go for sex at 10pm, while their wives are begging for sleep.   If these guys helped out like this guy does and the wife could sit down by 8pm (or earlier) she'd be more rested for sex. 

>If my wife is not willing to

>If my wife is not willing to ALSO meet my male needs, then it's all one sided and will fail. This is the case.

Wait a second, are you saying that because your wife doesn't want to have sex that somehow women don't like sex in general? What are HER needs? Male needs do not equate to any woman falling over herself to please you. You seem to believe, as many men do, that to be sexually satisfied in a heterosexual encounter, the woman bears the burden of trying to NOT be female. She is in the position to kowtow to what YOU demand. That's ridiculous. 

>>It's like you are saying, hey, women will withhold sex if you don't 100% capitulate to their selfish needs.

And here is where I will tell you about MY sex life. I am extremely sexually motivated and always have been. That doesn't mean I agree with porn, but I have been exposed to a lot of it (because of men, the first being my father for a nice ICK factor). My husband does not shower, shave or brush his teeth. He sucks in bed for a variety of reasons. He is neither animalistic nor passive, he is just AWKWARD and uncomfortable. He used to watch porn and it basically ruined his sexuality. He was left not knowing how to relate to an actual human female, especially one that had experience. He also had no experience, just porn porn porn. I feel sorry for him. We used to like each other and got along well but we never had a great sex life and I've been basically cheated for 8 years out of what could have been a good sexual relationship. I have considered cheating because hey, I "deserve" it, right? But I couldn't do that because I don't have a desire to break my marriage vow and other personal reasons. There are some lines I can not allow myself to cross.

I get very tired of you whining about not getting sex when I get it 2 or 3 times a year and am thoroughly disappointed each time. I understand your frustration but I do not like or agree with glorification of pornography. If you mean that porn's place in a marriage is when the spouses are not having sex at all, it is a sexless marriage, then you're really just single people with a contract. 

>Well, let them withhold. I can go years without..

Join the club.

>value me as a man with a man's tastes and desires.

Again you keep insisting that sexuality itself is man-based and you have to be served somehow. 

>Otherwise, it is the woman who should go shack up with another woman.

I've considered that as well. 

>She wants me to forget my style and tastes and only do what she wants.

So wait, you are getting sex but it's just not the kind you want? How about this idea, I know it's crazy but have you considered divorce? 

>So you tell me how balanced it is for the woman to get 100% of what she wants

For her to be getting that, you'd have to be giving it and it doesn't sound like that's what is happening. Have you talked to her about it?

>What I am proposing is that sometimes you have sex and you do it completely for the other person.

And it's not always about the man, but in porn it is. In porn, women have sex because men want it to please the man and are excluded as participants in anything but HIS pleasure. Where's the porn where the exact opposite happens?

>Throw rose peddles down and play soft music and I will never naturally keep an erection. 

Funny, that's never been necessary for me. Soft music? Ick. 

" I don't  NEED sex."

But using porn, masturbating, having affairs, etc etc. prove that you do. 

Interesting when you talk about being used since that's what a lot of women feel a lot of the time especially when males have their orgasms and well it's all over, too bad. Talk about feeling used.

> They would rather go without than have a woman completely dictate sex. 

But they don't go without. They wank all day, and that's NOT going without. 

>The issue here is that my wife is low sex.

Get a new wife.

>>well, I draw the line because I simply will have zero desire for yet another 'all about her' moment.

Well NOW we're getting somewhere. You're not actually mad at estrogen, you're taking it out on estrogen because of your wife. And you feel that you have put a lot into keeping the relationship going and she is not meeting you halfway in all aspects of life. 

ADHD spouses are often seen as insanely selfish. Like my husband who whines about just about everything he has to do so I'm a nag and blah blah blah. But I work 2 jobs, he watches TV all day and I don't get sex, either. 

Are you saying?

You said

"So wait, you are getting sex but it's just not the kind you want? How about this idea, I know it's crazy but have you considered divorce?"

 

Hell yeah Im saying that. Do you think cruddy sex is fulfilling? Why is that supposed to work for men? Really? Just because there was a vagina present does not mean fulfilment was had any more than a penis means that for a woman. There is that double standard again. If women allow sex men should be puppy dogs and wag their tale with glee? Come on.

How about a woman take sex seriously and decidedly be good in bed?

And yeah, divorce is something I think about EVERY day. Not because of sex alone, but that is a large part. Sex isn't the worst thing my wife does poorly. Honestly, if she were even worse in bed and even remotely caring I'd forget sex. And before you say it's me, remember that I am the one doing most of it. We have an odd dynamic if that is a word to use here... imagine that guy who completely uses his wife while she works 2 jobs and takes care of the house... and he is out doing drugs and cheating... not that you can exactly reverse the details, but you would have an idea of how my wife is. 

Being bad in bed is just the last straw

 

 

Again...

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And yeah, divorce is something I think about EVERY day. Not because of sex alone, but that is a large part. Sex isn't the worst thing my wife does poorly. Honestly, if she were even worse in bed and even remotely caring I'd forget sex. And before you say it's me, remember that I am the one doing most of it. We have an odd dynamic if that is a word to use here... imagine that guy who completely uses his wife while she works 2 jobs and takes care of the house... and he is out doing drugs and cheating... not that you can exactly reverse the details, but you would have an idea of how my wife is. 

Being bad in bed is just the last straw

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You're wasting time talking about sex when there's an elephant in the room.

Wow

I am truly sorry for your marriage. All arguments aside.. that sucks. In a sense then we have similar lives but mirrors of them.

You and I are just angry sorts... deep sigh. 

Really, I think I can empathize with you a LOT. Your description while in detail is different the results are the same.

If you were the man, then you might be using porn because well, you tried everything else but as  you said, it's not your thing. Or something along those lines.

Im not your husband. I'm very attentive in bed. I monitor eye dilation, breathing, skin tension. I know when on this particular day a specific thing is working for you. Is it touching the inside of your wrist? Is it kissing your neck? I feel the heart beat and tempo of breathing to make sure I am on track every single time. Or at least as close as I can get.

I'm the kind of guy that will know which wrist you prefer touched. Where on the small of your back do you like my hand if at all... I'm really good at this. I don't know why, but during swinging I learned 2 things. My wife is horrible in bed and I know how to read a woman. I don't read a woman in bed to get my ego stroked. Well, a few times at first but that just got boring and empty. What I found was that I just wanted to connect. When there is a responsive person on the other end of sex, it's WAY better. 

Why is it that my wife of 30 years can't remember what I like but a woman I slept with 3 years ago remembers perfectly? I'm not talking about base sex like anal... I'm talking about where to touch. The details... not animal sex.

So, yeah, I miss having sex with someone who actually realizes I am there and remembers me... 

I am so sorry for your marriage. I can't fix it, but I can hope for you.

Being in a sexless marriage

Being in a sexless marriage is extremely hard because human beings need to be touched and connect with each other. I don't want to be some "toilet" for a man to get his jollies, I want to be considered as any person would in a sexual relationship. I think porn teaches men something that's not real -- that women are ok with being "toilets" for guys, that we love to gobble up semen and your pleasure is the holy grail of our own pleasure. No, that's not real, it's made up stuff to make you feel powerful and come back for more. 

Real sex takes effort. That's effort that my husband and your wife aren't putting in, but we are respectively craving because we have a lot to give. It's a sad thing when a relationship loses that intimacy (not just genital intimacy but knowing someone enough that you're comfortable sharing everything with them.) I feel awkward with him and I did not feel like that with other men before I got married. I know which ones were "duds" and which were fair and which were great. I had an 8 yr relationship before him and was stuck in complacency from him as well. I seem to go for the phlegmatic personality in many things but they stink in the bedroom (way too easygoing to the point they don't care). As friends they're great people. 

And now I don't WANT to have affairs and have to masturbate to satisfy myself. I want a good sexual relationship with him but if he won't even brush his teeth, what is going on? I want it, he doesn't. He's not even trying. I have only my memories of great sex and wonder if I'll ever have it again.