Relevance....the quality or state of being closely connected or appropriate.
This is my new word. What is the relevance...in anything? Is it subjective...or objective? This came to me last night when I was yet, trying to have a conversation with my wife, and we were doing the "two different languages" thing again? I finally figure out, what those "two Languages" really are and it hit me, right between the eyes!! LOL I was trying to speak to her "objectively" about the logistics of chores and who does what in an effort to get past this major stumbling block in out communications again? This time, I listened only but I was still having a difficult time following her? Every time I tried to, in effect, talk to her or exchange ideas, she would get frustrated and ask me why I was saying what I was saying? I said "aren't we trying to problem solve the situation surrounding certain chores? You started conversation saying, I'm having a real issue with this and I don't know what to do?" But after that opening line, she seemed to drift off into another topic or things that were unrelated to one another again..and mostly, it sounded like complaining and venting and just went negative from there? I kept trying to pull the conversation back on line ( to stay on topic ) and she kept going somewhere completely unrelated to the topic which about her feelings or making statements over and over and saying the same thing? I finally asked her if we could stay on the one topic at hand and try to figure out a solution to the problem that you clearly stated that you were having an issue, and I don't know what to do? You came to me with this, otherwise, it was not even on my mind? Don't you want to find a solution to this easily fixable problem as you came to with with and wanted an answer for?"
And she got angry and stopped the conversation saying "I already have the answer, I told you the answer this morning. That's what I'm going to do and I don't need your help with it"
So why then, did you come to me and say "I'm having an issue with this, and I don't know what to do?"
Relevance. " the quality or state of being: closely connected......or appropriate"
Which one? If everything that comes out of her mouth is not related to the topic at hand ( the logistics of chores ) then how can you speak subjectively.. about something that o objective like that? It appears the problem really truly is...she can't speak or hear things objectively and can only make statement or singular ideas objectively...that are not related to or connected to anything else. What is appropriate in this case should not go into the subjective thought but what I realized as it Dawned on....nothing she was saying was objective to the goal of solving this chore issue we were having? I honestly think, she has no ability to speak objectively and that is the language barrier that has been holding us up. It you can't speak objectively about anything..then every is subjective even logistical facts and logical matters like fixing this "issue" that she said "I don't know what to do?" ( she came to me...not the other way around )
Because clearly to me, it sounded like the mixture of the two...with no relevance what so ever? In fact, the only thing she anything I could really understand was........."I'm having an issue"....and......."I don't know what to do" Everything that came after that, was saying how worried she was? Wouldn't it be appropriate, to find out or ask what that is? And when I ask or try to find out more....she repeats he same things again and says...I already told you, here I'll say it again" Please, no.....stop!!! Not again!!!! Repeating te same thing over and over and then saying...I told you,l here I'll say it again. What she said, and kept repeating over and over...had no relevance to what she said before which is why I was not able to follow her? Subjectively, or objectively speaking, but what I was hearing was both at the same time and nothing made any sense to me? I realized in the moment...that what she was saying lacked "relevance" to the topic...but not to her, which made no sense at all? And then she tells me afterwards, that she already told me what the answer was early yesterday...even though I heard her clearly ( and she admits saying this ) I don't know what to do? What was the relevance of saying anything to me at all, and why did she bring it up if she already knew the answer????????????? My new favorite word. It gives me a base line to work from now.
Relevance....the quality or state of being closely connected or appropriate.
It's not about the nail....u-tube it....
Submitted by c ur self on
(I said "aren't we trying to problem solve the situation surrounding certain chores? You started conversation saying, I'm having a real issue with this and I don't know what to do?" But after that opening line, she seemed to drift off into another topic or things that were unrelated to one another again..and mostly, it sounded like complaining and venting and just went negative from there?)
I think you interpreted the statement...I don't know what to do?? As "help me"...I think most of the time when my wife says that it just means..."Shut up and listen to me" :)
C "Shut Up and Listen to Me"
Submitted by kellyj on
C...I've come to that conclusion too. "Shut up, I want you to hear me" is what I'm getting but the problem is not so much that I'm not listening, but more that I don't understand her when she speaks at times which is the ongoing battle if she simply can't say what it is she really means? I've just stumbled across something that I have yet to process fully, but when I read this is was like "coming home". I knew immediately what this was saying because this is exactly what my wife does. Like "coming home"...I know it so well. This has more to do with me simply understanding what she is really trying to say since she is not saying what she really means and says other things instead? Which has been a curiosity more than a problem but it is a problem for sure? I also realised in effect, that this is a condition she has fallen into in how she talks to anyone and it really is difficult to talk to someone when they do this. No doubt! I can listen all day long, and I'm still not getting what I need to understand. That's more of the issue here than me not listening but, that's not to say I do all the time either....it's just saying when I do, I have a terrible time trying to get, what she means? I'll just throw this out there as I have yet come to any real conclusions in what to do about this? As yet to be determined exactly however, I have learned how to shut it down when it starts getting out of hand? That is.....I'm trying to get her to shut up, just so I can understand her when she loses me and I am baffled by the things she says sometimes?? For what it's worth....this is it. Is it further to New York ...or by plane?
Contemporary academic studies of the term further characterize its usage in philosophical discourses. In "Aporetics: Rational Deliberation in the Face of Inconsistency" (2009), Nicholas Rescher is concerned with the methods in which an aporia, or "apory", is intellectually processed and resolved. In the Preface, Rescher identifies the work as an attempt to "synthesize and systematize an aporetic procedure for dealing with information overload (of 'cognitive dissonance', as it is sometimes called)" (ix). The text is also useful in that it provides a more precise (although specialized) definition of the concept: "any cognitive situation in which the threat of inconsistency confronts us" (1). Rescher further introduces his specific study of the apory by qualifying the term as "a group of individually plausible but collectively incompatible theses", a designation he illustrates with the following syllogism or "cluster of contentions":
1. What the sight of our eyes tells us is to be believed.
2. Sight tells us the stick is bent.
3. What the touch of our hand tells us is to be believed.
4. Touch tells us the stick is straight. (2)
The aporia, or "apory" of this syllogism lies in the fact that, while each of these assertions is individually conceivable, together they are inconsistent or impossible. Rescher's study is indicative of the continuing presence of scholarly examinations of the concept of aporia and, furthermore, of the continuing attempts of scholars to translate the word, to describe its modern meaning.
Aporia is also a rhetorical device whereby the speaker expresses a doubt—often feigned—about his position or asks the audience rhetorically how he or she should proceed. The aim of the aporia is to discredit his opponent. Aporia is also called dubitatio. ohter: "DUBIATION" Yes!!! OMG Dubiation. My new favorite word. When I saw that it immediately reminded me of "Doobage"....which is an old antiquated term some people used for their Marijuana.( the movie Breakfast Club...to be sure. It may be an old and antiquated term but it still sounds funny. Aways tickled me every time I heard it ) Ha! Dubiation is so close in the way it sounds that really struck me funny so I'm going with that one as my reminder! LOL ( it still makes me laugh )
The fact is, I know she is not doing this with any intention what so ever, but the effect it has on me, is still one in the same? Confused, baffled and immediately wanting clarification. Bingo. It's not just me. I also wanted to point out, that in another explanation, it said that this can also be used in a way to open the door for an argument. This is exactly what it does too. This is the "BAIT" that I've learned not to take, since no matter what we are talking about, it ends in an argument. Well, if you don't want to argue, then why open the door?????? That, makes no sense, what so ever in my mind? And every time I shut this down before it happens, my wife is left with nothing to say and so....she says nothing except trying it again in exactly the same way? I can see her frustration, but I'm not going there? In the end, I'll just say "well, whatever it is, I guess you're just going to have to live with it, until you figure out what you're trying to say since I will not argue with you, but I 'm not going to sit here and listen to you try and do the same thing over and over by saying the same thing each time you do? I heard you the first time. Asking the same question again will still get you the same answer?? Like...are you expecting a different one, by asking it again? ( duh??)" That makes no sense, so why even say it in the first place? This makes no sense, what so ever to me at least? The problem is, she will just stop talking and not talk at all and go away in silence? What can you do? Nothing which is exactly what I do which is not what she wants....but I really can't help her unless she can say what that is? It's not my job to interpret her even though I have to, but only up to a point. She's on her own there, until she figures this out since I have no idea what to do with this and it's really not my problem for sure. I have my own to deal with, this is just not one of them.
C.......I'm Coming to Some Conclusions Here
Submitted by kellyj on
This has been the most difficult part for me to do? Try and determine what is going on with my wife since she displays a lot of symptoms that I simply don;t have....exactly. What I came across recently was a notion presented by one researcher psychologist who is really trying to redefine what ADHD is compared to some other disorders. After putting down my own diagnosis for a while, I've revisited it again with a fresh set of eyes. I'm pretty confident now, I understand my own history and it pretty much played out just like this. I was pretty classic as a Predominantly Hyperactive / Impulsive child with early symptoms showing themselves right away. I did not suffer much with inattention to the point that I did not struggle in school too much, except for some LD problems with auditory instructions combined with some hearing problems that just made that worse. The effort I had to maintain to pay attention was exacerbated by my hearing and I did have trouble in math skills which lends itself or points to a particular LD with math only. Yet, I didn't have any real issues understanding things or comprehension skills at all. Mostly, I was hyperactive with everything that goes along with it including behavior problems but only in specific areas which again, had to do with sitting still or not moving around. Other than that, I was able to overcome a lot of my symptoms on my own to a certain degree. Enough, to get by without too many problems. And the one thing that never really stood out much, had to do with getting attention from others. Mostly, I liked to keep a lower profile even though I really needed the validation and my confidence did suffer a lot of time. I really didn't like being different and all I wanted to do was to blend in which I did, without anything else interfering with it. That, and some ODD behaviors which appear to be par for the course with boys who were hyperactive as a child. All of these things seemed to diminish by the time I was in my teens but here is where the defining line starts and begins I do believe from everything I know and everything I've read. That includes comparing myself to my other family members who are all female except for my father and I? This is where I don't know enough about my fathers history to say exactly what went down for him, but combined with what I do recognize know as PTSD in his childhood and being the oldest child...he definitely had some antisocial parts to his personality along with a good deal of Narcissism if not and fully diagnosed case to be sure. Not a pretty combo to live with but there were some things he did not have that would fall into the ADHD catagory what so ever. He was neither hyperactive or inattentive at all. He showed no signs of any cognitive or inability to think on a wide range of levels and he was extremely consistent, reliable and not easily swayed or influenced by others. He was missing so may of the features that I recognise now, that he seems pretty easy to look at now and say his problems were mainly a lack of empathy and need to be the boss or in charge at all times. The interesting comparison however to our current President, however, very much unlike his behavior, my father was reasonable as long as it suited him and he did not act like a child in the same way as it appears to be with DT in so many things? My father appeared much more rational and much more "grown up" than the man who apparently cannot even see himself as anything but "Great". I guess you might say, that the Grandiose part...was certainly not his problem nearly to that degree even though he did think of himself much more in terms of "Iam right" and 'you are wrong" most of the time. Plus, being "wrong" or showing him as "wrong" met with a very negative and strong reaction. He simply demanded compliance at all times with a cost involved if you didn't. End of story there.
On the other hand, and this is where I am going here. My mother, with all her good features, had a lot of funny ideas about things and her focus was not what I would call....all that sound at times. In direct contrast to my father there without a doubt what so ever. And looking past my mother to my sisters and my mother mom ( my Grandmother )....being the center of attention appeared to be a real common theme with my mother to the point that I could not overlook her as being pretty Histrionic indeed. At times but not so much as I saw her getting older there too? But if I look at my middle sister and her daughter who ended up with Bolemia....these are all some telltale signs of Histrionic Disorder as well? My middle sister, loves to be in the spotlight but she is also very bright and energetic and not a negative person at all. And she is also easily influenced and much more apt to believe what she is told and not question things like myself and my older sister? Neither my older sister nor I, was highly focused on our appearance or wanting to be the center of attention. To the point, of going the opposite of that and really not feeling very comfortable in situations that called for you to get up and perform in front of an audience. We were both, almost "drama adverse" getting to the point. To the point, that my middle sisters went into the drama end of things and was in the theatre productions at school starting when she was in high school especially.
This is where what I read recently had me thinking about this more? As it said and I'm paraphrasing, that ADHD and personality disorders may not be different as much as a different way of expressing exactly the same thing? Meaning, it just went a different way...but is basically from the same cause or source and is not so much co-morbid as I understand what that means, but just developing into it....or not, depending on?
Here's what I have to say about this in terms of what I actually am and for the most part, been really aware of, without letting other people on to it and hiding it for the most part. And in light of being made "highly aware" of these things early on, and very much brought my attention and these were "unwanted" especially by my father who had no bones about voicing his disapproval and making me aware of them in a way, you could not be aware of them? This I think was really a blessing in disguise albeit, done in a very abusive way. He was very black and white...but he wasn't a concrete thinker. Not at all to be exact? He was a pretty sharp guy with "street smarts" that exceeded the average. It would be a cold day in Hell, to pull the wool over my fathers eyes and he had an uncanny ability to read and interpret people accurately. To the point of almost going off the chart he could do it so well and this had the effect of making me so self conscious that I was watching my every move so as not to rock his boat. Being aware then, is where I am heading with this. I would say because I was that aware of myself, I was not in what I would say a great deal of denial. And because I was not in a great deal of denial, I was working on these things from a very early age. With that intention in mind. To get rid of these unwanted behaviors so I could blend in and just be normal. What no one knows except for me, is how much I was aware and how hard I worked to not allow my symptoms to show because I did not want to suffer the consequence and I managed to pull that off wth a great deal of effort. But what you or anyone else knows what how aware I was of these tendencies to go in one or more directions and how much I learned on my own, to mitigate them so they wouldn't show. I guess what I am saying is....I can totally see myself falling into one of these patterns of behaviors and even in my thinking, but I was bound and determined to go against them anyway, but to do that, you have to be aware of them? it felt like a constatn battle inside myself always, to not be how I was being pulled to be, and go against myself in that way? And even in getting diagnosed myself, I wanted to know since I'd been doing that since I was a very little kid? What I now see more clearly was, what I thought I was doing was going against myself, but what I was actually doing was going against my ADHD symptoms and not even realizing this was what I was doing? With purpose and intention, not to be that way? And with a good deal of awareness of it the entire time along the way? This has just been a life long battle and that I have also been highly aware of? By the time I got to be a certain age, this is just the way it was? I never questioned the battle inself, I just thought everyone was like that too? I realize for me now, this is not the case with everyone but that battle was just there, and that's was it? I was use to it and I accepted it as just living life? And I figured everyone was like me, so everyone had to struggle as hard as I did plus, I was blending in with that intnetion in mind, so I wasn't showing the symptoms as much since I figured out how to get around them on my own, without too many issues figuring that part out? It just took me longer to learn, but that just made me a little behind? Not enough though, to cause a lot of problems for the most part except when it came time to be in a close relationship Love relationship since I really was that self sufficient. That was no act, it took a lot of work to get there and I was highly aware of all the things I had to do, to do it in the first place? So by the time I was a teenager...it could have gone a different way entirely if it had not been for what I did starting many years before? What was mostly off, was my perception that I was different in that way to everybody else. I could only do so much to blend in though, but that really only showed in the areas that were most difficult. And they still are difficult, nothings really change aside from learning some new skills to get around them? No one knows all of this aside from me, but the fact that I know it and I was aware of it, is the key here I think? The battle itself, has remained consistent through the years but with steady progress too in a plosive way? I've always been improving, that;s the point of saying this which is an interesting concept compared to what "might have been" knowing what I know?
This is what brought me to this conclusion which I really can't see any other way? I do think my wife has ADHD and hers turned more like my middle sister in the direction of being Hisrionic or developing more into it, and her not really trying to do anything about it only because she is so oblivious and unware of herself, which is really what the problem is. I kind of ruled out more of the Borderline and my T agrees with that..so what is left and what it looks like with all those overlapping symptoms is a person who cannot stand not to be the center or attention , who is rather needy and dependent and really shallow and superficial at times. This is where I have a hard time dealing with this and knowing what to do? I see my sisters family with two boys and a girl..and I see my family with two sisters and a mother. And I see myself, and my older sister and I see my wifes family with her brother and all his dysfunctions. Plust her mother and my grandmother and there in one common thread that I see here throughout that really makes this easier to see? The only people who I see behave in any similar manner are 1) Women or females 2) drama 3) needing to be the center of attention with a lot of intolerances to go along with it.
So as this goes in my wifes family. Only her mother and her are like this. Her brother is not. In my sisters family: Only my sister and her daughter are like this. He two boys and her husband are not. And in my family again: Only my mother, her mother and one sister is like this...and the two men and one daughter are not. And since they say....that Histrionic is usually diagnose more with women....I have to conclude at least from what I know that awareness is the major factor. And the same with me, if I stood out due to my hyperactive behavior, one might think I would get singled out and called on it early and made highly aware of it right from the get go? How could I not, would be the better question? And in terms of a little girl who liked to be the center of attention, being overly dramatic and emotionally based.....one might also conclude that this would not stand out so much, and even more generally accepted but only until it was not especially when you got older? The one person in our family, who appeared to be far less aware of her behavior...is my middle sister and to this day, she will break down and cry at the first sign of something she does not understand or want to see? Both my older sister and myself...always wondered why my middle sister got more praise, was more a victim and got more attention from my mother who was for the most part, just like her? Seems to make sense...when you see it that way instead? And of course, being a "chp off the old block" in that respect, one might see how this was not brought to her attention as being out of the norm or unusual in any way? Having a little "Ballerina" for a daughter is not all that abnormal for a little girl to be? The only problem there was, usually little girls grow out of that stage? While I was doing my best to grow out of the way I was, my middle sister was being encouraged and praised? While I was being called on the carpet and actually beaten for the way I was. My mom was facilitating her in being a little princess? All I can say to that without hesitation. I wanted as far away from that kind of attention as a kid could possibly get!!! That was as unwelcome as anything I can possibly imagine but it also makes sense that my mother and I had a raging battle at all times when it came to my appearance. That was one place, my mother lost..and I won, and there were no two ways about it!! LOL And at least thanks to my father for stepping in and saying "leave him alone!!" Thank God for that one. I can be thankful for my Dad seeing the problem and cutting my mom off at the knees there. LOL whew! The stories I could tell but I'll save that for another time? LOL "Back off MOM!!!" was one of my favorite things to say to her. To a good end in that much let me tell you. And the bottom line in my own conclusion here with Histrionic 'Disorder or a proclivity to say the the least in women since I have no other reference in comparing that to men? That I know of aside from myself which as it appears, is not my problem especially comparing my sister to my sister and myself. They are simply a royal pain the ass and sometimes I feel like giving them a spanking the telling them to grow up!! That's not a suggested treatment but just more of my personal opinion. I have a hard time being very sympathetic knowing what I know. That the honest truth but it's helpfull to put this where it actually belongs I think. That is really useful for compassion. Sympathy? Not so much. In fact, sympathy is in short supply based on myself and what I know.LOL
Good Night J...This a great point....
Submitted by c ur self on
You have basically described what me and my W go through trying to have a conversation....If I don't say things exactly right, she will always stop me or interrupt me, usually w/ some stress in her voice and want clarification....When others are around and I misspeak in a sentence dialog she may stop me in this fashion and point it out...Others who are listening (non-adhders) my just set there quietly, and when she looks at them and points out what she stopped me for.....They will usually just say this...We knew what he meant....( was hearing and understanding the big picture of my story/dialog).. I use to think she was just interrupting and fixing my words intentionally just to be aggravating, or just to be pointing out my mistake (getting even I guess..LOL)... But, I've come to realize she does get lost a lot if I use a wrong word, or use run on sentences...Which I'm terrible about giving to much detail...And you are exactly right about it creating frustration which feeds right into arguments....This is the kind of stuff that made me write that post a while back...."When words are the worst kind of communication"
But you have nailed one of the main reason's add and non-adhd spouses slip off into stressful verbal communications....It's almost unavoidable unless we truly stay in a state of awareness, that simple conversations will be difficult, and expect it...So as to have a good understanding of our differences, and not take it personal...And if we feel stressed, just walk away, and if it's that important, just text it..:)
Thanks J, Nice stuff.....
One Thing I Read C....
Submitted by kellyj on
Which this is coming from the person like you or I on the receiving end which I'm just a person in that respect, ADHD or not right? The effect it has on me, is no different than anyone else so this applies regardless which my also be validating for you? It said ( para pharasing ) "which leads to frustration, and wanting to teach them a lesson." LOL I don't know how many times, I wanted to teach my wife a lesson, but as I found and it will also way this...that lesson somehow never gets across and only makes it worse! You and I on the same page there. Which just leaves the royal pain the ass part at times and coping on our own! LOL In spades!! Logic and reason, and objectivity simply does not apply. The royal pain the ass part. Some days are better than others but I'm not buying in, as you should not either. Just supporting, not telling you anything you don't already now. I guess experience is the best teacher after all? It does come in handy when you need it that's for sure. I'm certainly not going to be promoting any princess behavior that's for sure. 10/4 or that one good buddy and you're very welcome indeed. :)
Submitted by c ur self on
She's 55, I'm 60...We don't need to be teaching each other anything...(Barring being a responsible example)...When it comes to the reality of our verbal communication attempts, there's enough difficulty to give trouble to the most humble of hearts...And a dose of humility is what we both really need..;)
Submitted by jennalemone on
While reading most of this thread, my mind kept going back to the days when I would talk to H's family especially his mother. Bless her heart but you never knew what she was REALLY meaning. It was hard to know how to respond. Was she trying to be or look like a "good" or "cute" person? Was she trying to start an argument?
She would say, with a broad smile - too broad - "She's such a lovely girl." This was only when the girl was quite obviously not a good looker nor a good personality. Thoughts and emotions that didn't make sense to the real situation. Was she wanting to be "talked out of" her own words? Drama and emotion found themselves in the most ridiculous inappropriate places. This would happen many times in any one conversation. She would say the exact OPPOSITE of what reality was and I would have to stop and try to determine what she was saying. I would risk misinterpreting her meanings so as not to insult HER. Everyone had to "read between the lines" of EVERYTHING she ever said because she would skirt around and dance around her real point. I think the family was conditioned to this particular "family-speak" and I had to shut-up most of the time because I did not understand the level of "sugar-coating", "self-beautifying", "cute imp-speak"???? that was going on.
If she wanted to ask a favor, she never came out and asked but would spend time and energy getting someone to figure out that they needed to OFFER TO her what she was hinting but not asking. Like, "so-an-so thinks they are so great, but they never help their mother with ANYTHING." Ugh...that was an easy one to spot. "Ohhh, wouldn't that be WONDERFUL if I could go to the store? Mmmmmmm... I would just be in heaven if I could het there. ..... Oh no, I couldn't impose on you. You have so much to do already." Why not say. "Would you be willing to take me to the store on Saturday?"
It didn't bother me....just thought it odd and didn't try to take away much from the conversation....just let it go. Yet, H, I realize would criticize me for being blunt when I just spoke what I believe to be normal....he thought he had to instruct me to "add a little honey" to my speech. What???? All honey and innuendo and trying to guess what is being said? No Thank you. No wonder there have been so many divorces in H's family.
The challenge was to read between the lines on every utterance for those of us who did not grow up with the convoluted family code of speaking "opposite talk". This is part of H's and my problem of relating. He doesn't say what he means and doesn't realize things seem like he is insincere or nutty to me or manipulating.
It seems to me all personality and no content other than a "show"..."Aren't I personable? Don't you just love me?" But that is all there is to it and the person getting "personality-ed" on is left with being nothing more than a confused mirror for them, guessing what it is they want. There is no vulnerability or sharing or planning or work of trust....just "Don't you think I am adorable?" ugh.
People who build their self esteem with in their own minds....
Submitted by c ur self on
People who refuse to mind their own business, and likes to use innuendo to insult others that they judge inferior to themselves....Jenna I to dislike the mask of fake ness....The saddest part of it all is, they believe it...