Just recently went through a horrendous time that started out with what would seem as a somewhat inocuous, but hurtful, situation. Husband, who was diagnosed with ADHD several months ago, sent me an email that included a poem he had decided to write to a young female coworker, who had a miscarriage late in pregnancy. There's a little more history to this than I present, but nothing previous to this was hugely inappropriate. My first gut instinct reading this email that explained how he was being so open to me and how he realizes that it MAY appear to others as inappropriate, was anger and pain. I had already started feeling uncomfortable about this person because my husband had said he admires her, she's a "good friend", he likes to talk to her, etc. (more here, but doesn't change the main point of the story). He said that he knows she enjoys poems and he purposefully wanted to do something personal and that's why he didn't just send a general letter of condolence. He addressed to just her and didn't include her husband. His explanation was because she's his coworker, not her husband. I thought it was highly inappropriate to be sending a very personal poem to a married female coworker and to address it just to her. He didn't see it that way. After weeks of arguing, crying, therapy, he has finally agreed to only have a professional relationship with this person. That is AFTER weeks of arguing, crying (on my part) and therapy. I just couldn't understand why he refused to give up this friendship if I thought it was hurting our marriage. I absolutely do not think they're having an affair- emotional or physcial; although he admits to having an emotional attachment to this person because she gives him a lot of admiration (that I don't give enough of; but with the ADHD issue, you can probably see how hard it is to do sometimes). I take responsibility for not meeting his needs for admiration, but when he saw me lose 10 lbs from this episode and the extreme hurt I was feeling due to his refusal to give up the friendship; he still felt that the "friendship" wasn't the issue, so he's not going to give it up. It made me even more convinced that the friendship meant more to him than either he realized or I realized. I do have some trust issues (based on my childhood and not a lot from anything my husband has done since he's been faithful for our entire long marriage), but I can't imagine that I could stand by and watch my husband go through that kind of pain and not do what I could to alleviate it if it was in my power NO MATTER THE REASON. I said he didn't give up the friendship because it was my issue with trust; but now I trust him even less. I don't trust that he'll be the one to protect me. I believe I can count on him as long as he thinks it's reasonable and it doesn't go against any of his principles. Was it wrong of me to expect my husband to not have anything beyond a professional relationship with a female coworker? This story is very complicated and there's a lot more to it than I can explain, but I know he still believes that he shouldn't have to give up this frienship even though he has agreed to. It hurts me to know that he values this friendship that much even though he denies that's the case. Not sure how to ever get beyond the hurt. I know I should feel lucky that my husband has been faithful and he does try so hard to please me (except in this instance). I want to get over the hurt. Part of the ADHD thing is that they so strongly believe that they are right. I don't think he'll EVER feel that what he did was wrong. He believes that he's just giving in to an irrational feeling and he just doesn't want to fight about it anymore and wants to get past it. He doesn't believe he should have to give up any friendship he believes is innocent no matter the effect on me.
Respecting a spouse's feelings
Submitted by LostInVA on 07/07/2014.
I understand why you are so
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I understand why you are so upset. What your husband did would bother me, too. My husband recently told me, at great length, about his online conversations with a former girlfriend who is struggling emotionally since the deaths of her elderly parents. This would not bother me if my husband and I had a "normal" relationship, but we don't: my husband lives out of town with his own elderly parents, and he never calls me or sends me email messages and he rarely responds to my messages to him. So when he went on and on about his conversations with this woman, I felt like a piece of garbage. I decided to not waste my breath telling him how hurtful it was for him to tell me about the fact that he has talked more to this other woman in the past few months than he has talked to me in the same amount of time.
Sorry, you're going through
Submitted by LostInVA on
Sorry, you're going through that. I'm surprised how painful it is for me. I've spent a good portion of our marriage telling myself that if I don't feel anything, then I won't get hurt. I feel like every time I let down my guard something happens and it's not even some big thing - he's never cheated on me as far as I know and I'm pretty confident in that assessment. Yet, he seems clueless at times. Even knowing that both his sister and sister-in-law (who he respects tremendously) agree that they would feel exactly as I did, doesn't seem to make him feel that the "friendship" should be given up. They both said that it would be absolutely unacceptable for a husband to choose that friendship over his wife's feelings (regardless of the reason). Still sticks to his "principles". So basically, he's doing me a big favor by making his relationship with her purely professional. If only he could see that spouses do things for each other unconditionally. When I say that my needs aren't being met, he answers by saying his needs aren't being met. One of his recent "truths" that he wanted to impart on me was that if I concentrated more on making him happy and less on my unhappiness, I would be happier. I would somehow be happier because I'm making him happy regardless of how I feel. I had to write that gem in my journal.
Aargh, I get it. It is so
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Aargh, I get it. It is so painful to be in a relationship with a person who is both avidly attentive to his own feelings and needs and clueless as to mine! I, too, try to not "feel" but it's hard to do that.
From the ADHD person's point of view
Submitted by SheriF on
I know this post is years old, but I thought I'd try to comment in hopes that one of you may see it. As I was reading replies, some of you seemed to be debating if the husband's inability to see he was hurting you was due to his ADHD. It's NOT. I have no problems knowing when I'm doing something hurtful. Yes, impulsivity is a huge problem, but I still know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. And if you are flat out telling your spouses that what they are doing is hurting you, if they aren't being a selfish twit, then they should have an "A-ha" moment and change their behavior. Yes, we sometimes don't know we are being hurtful, but after being told about it several times, we have the ability to NOT be selfish. Just the opinion of someone with ADHD. For what's it's worth, I think they are just using it as an excuse to be selfish.
Thank you SheriF.....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I appreciate your input on this. Could you , if you don't mind, explain how people let you know and what your initial reaction/experience was in response? This is such a "charged" issue on both sides. This isn't about forgetting to do something.....it's about mutual interaction.....and I have long believed/understood that adhd does NOT effect the ability to understand once something is explained concerning treatment of each other. They don't do it to others but can't "help" it with a spouse?.......I have never bought that. I tend to agree with the selfishness you stated. Again, thank you for posting.
I second what Zap10 said. I
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
I second what Zap10 said. I would like to know how to word things for my ADHD boyfriend so he understands what I'm trying to say. Recently I posted on this forum about my boyfriend lying to me about smoking pot again. It wouldn't have been so bad except for the fact that he lied to me about it..twice. we have since resolved things and are moving forward.
The thing is, I don't want this to keep happening. I need him to understand how much his lying hurts me and our relationship.. I need to learn a better way to communicate with my boyfriend about subjects and things that hurt me. I don't want to nag him but I want to find a way to express myself so that he will understand.
Adele.....What Sheri Said is Absolutely True
Submitted by kellyj on
It's not about not being able to see the difference between right and wrong....it's almost always...if not always....not realizing it in the moment...but there is no inability to see it after the fact and that is not the issue? As I have experienced this countless times....it's more to do with a choice of not suffering the consequences of not seeing it...and having to admit that you may have done something hurtful....even not with intention?
You know...I can relate something I did in the past to you where I was wrong but couldn't see it? It's not that I was "wrong" either...it was just that I wasn't able to see past what I was not getting or felt I needed SOO badly....that I was being selfish in that way....just like Sheri said?
When my ex wife and I went into couples counseling.....we had not had sex for a while and I was starting to come unglued over this at the time? I was so focused on not getting sex....I could not get that out of my head and it was the MOST important thing to me on the list of priorities?
To the point....that my T very early on....looked at me and said....."you need to leave that one alone for the time being. You've got "SEX" ...on the "Brain" and that is not going to serve you ....or her here...so you need to "drop it"....and put a lid on that for that one....for the time being ?
In respect to this...it could have been anything that I chose to be singularly focused on...but whether it be "no sex"....or "lying" or any one thing that appears to be so offensive to you that you just can't get past this.....I can honestly say that my T was right...and "lack of sex"....was the least of my concerns?
In respect to my ex wife....she was not wanting to have sex for probably a whole lot of reasons....but the bottom line was...she didn't feel like it....and there wasn't much I could do about it and that's why it was so upsetting to me? I could not control my "need for sex"..and I couldn't control my wife's need...not to want to? But it was causing me a problem and I was really upset about it at the time but could not see much as but......"I'm not getting sex!!!" LOL Pretty much...that's about as far as it got?
And the biggest reason I felt that way....had to do with me....thinking there must be something "wrong with me"...or that I had done something "wrong"? Getting "sex"...would have validated me...and said...."you're Okay....you didn't do anything wrong?" Which was ridiculous...because that was not the problem?
In all of this saying.....these are only the symptoms of the problem....they are not the problem.....in it and by itself but seemingly sometimes....it's what we think...but it's not what it really is? If you are trying to have a conversation with your boyfriend....as "Lying"....and how "Lying hurts you"...as being the topic of discussion right from the get go?
There are reasons why people lie......and mostly it's to avoid the consequence of something else instead? That's the conversation I might have instead ( about the something else part? ) at least to start with and be open to hear what those reasons are? Underlying reasons to the lying.....is probably the reason for the lying in itself that does not necessarily have to do with you or anything you've done wrong?
J
Tagging a little more on what J wrote
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I totally agree with SheriF, as I see things going on here at home. My husband certainly does care and does distinguish between right and wrong and doesnt want to harm. J remarked on the issue of realizing it in the moment.
I'd add that there's an issue of retaining memory of what did happen in the moment, long enough to think over the moral implications of what was done in the moment. If you cant remember, or remember enough of what was said and done, well enough to do a moral assessment of it later, there's no chance later to initiate a conversation about it or make up with some action that puts right what you did wrong...if youndo your own thinking and decide that yes you did do something harmful to someone. I find that my husband doesnt pick up on as many details of physical action and talk as I do, to stow them in memory. So his memory of what he did say or do can be pretty blank. Not by his intention...he's not blocking.
Just in the last couple days he and I did an intraction that worked for us this time. He saw me do something. I told him why. It was that I was having a problem. All that went into his memory was that one action of mine, not what he was doing and not what I told him about what was going on with me. He didnt retain all the pieces. The next day, he did somethng that was his guess (wrong) of what I wanted hm to do. I didnt want him to do anything! I told him at the moment I did it that I did it ...and not to him, by the way...because I was struggling with something myself. His memory didnt take in what I said. Nor did h remember what he was doing at the time. All he remembered was something I did...not to him, and he worried that he was supposed to do something or I wanted him to. Much of his problem was that his attention and memory only captured about 10% of what had been going on...and the next day, he swung into action, jumping to conclusions about what he was supposed to do to make things right.
This situation seems to have gotten straightened out, because the next day I saw that he hadnt retained what I said and retained what he was doing, and wrote him a description of what I was thinking...repeated it in writing, a form that he doesnt need to have memory to check. I was happy tomsee yesterday evening that he trusted what I wrote...the key thing that didnt stick in his memory...and accept that I wasnt trying to make himdo anything or complain. He trusted it written.
I think inability to notice some things in the moment well enough that they go into working memory can be an impediment both to treating one's partner with care, but also one's own peace of mind
Agreed. We, my H and I, deal
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Agreed. We, my H and I, deal with a lot of lying issues. It's become a hot issue in the marriage and will most likely be the reason I pull the plug after this last trial year. THE issue as far as I'm concerned. I expect lies rather than truth. As I've stated before, I can overlook most ADHD stuff, but the lying has become a deal breaker. I'm not making excuse, but I do see some connection to memory issues. If a memory is not stored well, he is not able to retrieve it and base his actions on past experiences. The dots aren't connecting. He can't relate current to past and adjust his behavior based on experience.... thus same old same old all the time. You know the routine - you recall a past experience and say "Oh, that didn't go so well for me. Maybe I shouldn't do that or do something different." Not so with my H.
He is not evil and he does not mean to hurt but lying is extremely hurtful to the person being lied to. It is an assault to self esteem and self worth. Who wants to be the person who deserves lying??
He can't "see" that his actions will hurt me because he can't "hold" a thought or retrieve a thought of me and my reactions to his lying..... he can't look at old interactions and apply them to the current situation.
Now, I can attribute some of this behavior to ADHD but I believe a good part of the lying is due to maladaptive coping skills and perhaps comorbid conditions. Bottom line, it's not going to change unless he takes action to change it.
I can say that lying isn't about me, but it is in the sense that he can't hold onto a thought of me (out of sight, out of mind) long enough to adjust his behavior and avoid hurting me. Arguing that he should stop doing it because it hurts me is completely ineffective. He can't see it in the moment.
What is the option? Let it go for now as J suggested? It is better for my mental health not to dwell on it.
I asked him to go to therapy (6 sessions total, then bailed). The only thing I asked was that he come to understand why he lies so he can get a handle on it and I can come to terms with it, understand why and have some belief that it is in his control - and relax a bit - stop waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I've "walked through" interactions and situations in painstaking detail, step at a time, as NOWORNEVER suggests.... breaking it down without anger or recrimination. At the end, he usually "gets it" but not in a way that he can apply the insight to future interactions. Plus, the excercise is exhausting. The last year I've put in considerable effort to remove all reasons to lie, but the lies persist. I can take a non-psychological professional guess as to the reasons he lies, but it's meaningless if he doesn't also see the connections.
His mother died when he was 19. Regrettably, I silently curse her. Where was she in all of this and why did she ignore a child's lying? I don't think there was ever any intervention or consequence regarding the lying. He lied, she got mad, he put up with the lectures and punishment, if any (doubtful), and waited for it all blow over, short term correction of behavior, then no long term change. It's a cycle that continues. Unless I walk away from it. There's no reason for me to process anger. Not reacting with anger is helpful for me. Anger hurts. He waits for it to blow over. It doesn't mean anything to him.
Memory Can Be a Mystery? As it Would Appear?
Submitted by kellyj on
What you said is very true NON. I just experienced this with my wife the other day...when she made a statement about the topic we were on...that included an important "line" or addition...to the other things she said? This one thing she said....changed the entire content or meaning to mean one thing...instead of what how she meant it? "I didn't mean that...." in other words but...if I had not commented on this "one sentence" or thing that she threw in there.....I would not have known that she had no idea she even said it. We're talking about within 5 minutes so my memory was not the issue here? And since the entire meaning "changed" because of this one thing I heard....I responded directly to this "one thing" in context and she stopped me and said...."I don't know what you are talking about? "We were talking about........( or I was talking better...no we here...I was just listening? lol ) this ( thing )...and now your talking about something completely different that has nothing to do with what I said?"
This happens all the time but this was so clearly obvious in this one moment in time ( since I brought it up immediately and didn't let it pass by ) that what this boils down to is that she did not remember what she said and too the point.....denied it adamantly? "No I didn't say that"....." I absolutely didn't say that...no way!!!"
Buy in respect to just this one time for sure for sure...she did say exactly as I quoted it back to her since it was just a 3 or 4 word sentence and it was the difference between understanding it one way...and understanding it another on the receiving end which is why she was responding to me...in this case...and saying that I was wrong and she didn't say....'those words".
And for the sake of argument here....she did say those exact words and she simply could not remember saying it? Even within that 5 minute time frame which would not be difficult to remember for most in that case? Not that she said....."I didn't mean it that way....( which would acknowledge the fact that she remembered saying something but came out wrong ) but literally denied saying it...and in this case....this was a memory moment and nothing else?
I know she does this more than I even realize...but I do realize she has memory issues ( going back years and not from age ) that she has admitted to me in general ...since it's been reported back to her so often with other people too? She will tell me something one day. And tell it to me again...a day later. And then tell it to me again....after that? Too the point I feel like she is nagging me or pestering me? Trying to drive this point home repeatedly so I will remember it....as if? And I have gotten irritated with her because of this ....and in these instances...she is genuinely surprised that she had told that too me before which I get immediately...that nagging was not what she was doing at all? Nothing I thought she was doing ( by repeating herself over and over ) was correct in why I thought she was doing that?
And the reason I think that or thought that in this one time I gave....was I have a hard time believing that you can't remember what you said...only 5 minutes later? For me at least....this would be highly unusual if that were me?
But I do perseverant...and I use to do this badly!!! In the moment when talking...I have a tendency to perseverant ( repeat myself ) but I have got that to the point of not doing that very often in the same way I use to? But with my perseveration ( like a record album that skips and repeats )....I do remember or realize I just did it...so this still does not account for a compete "absence" of memory or not remembering it at all? Like blank....no memory either in the moment...just after...or even after that? Of course...if you can't remember what you just said 5 minutes ago....you aren't going to remember it tomorrow or the next day?
So in terms of lying.....my wife was not lying when she said she didn't say those words that she did. I actually believe her since I've seen this countless times and other people have told her that too?
And too the point that this is where I have an complete inability to understand this.......my wife has "blank spots " in her memory of her past and especially her childhood and says it because she blocked it from her mind and she was actually aware that she did that? This is a well known phenomenon...but it's not one that I have experienced myself...which seems to be just the opposite?
This is what is so curious about this and I have not heard anything as yet to explain this in terms of those attachment styles once again?
If I were to state my own problem with memory? Is remembering too much....and I almost can't not remember things even if I would like too? Once it goes in....it never goes out and I remember things so clearly ...that that in itself is a problem if you don't want to have those in your thoughts all the time? I wish I could "block" some of that out like my wife says she does....and I seemingly have no ability to do this....even if I wanted to??? My head is so full of memories...it's almost a curse...instead of a blessing sometimes seeing it from that perspective? I can't make it go away...that's the point????
And in my default insecure attachment style......"anxious / preoccupied"? If you think about a person who would be anxious.....it would be a person who can't get rid of all those memories and can't stop thinking about them ( preoccupied with them? ) Just on paper and with nothing else to go on.....I wonder if this is related to memory and why that comes to pass?
And in the same vain.....an "avoidant / dissmissive " person....avoids and dismisses things...as their default...in how to deal with issues especially conflict or anything...."uncomfortable emotionally" or "unpleasant to them?" Unfortunately as I have found.....if YOU are unpleasant to them.....YOU get included on that list? LOL That is...to a avoidant / dismissive personality?
And when it comes to thing ( as they say are shiny ) for people with ADHD? My own two bits here that it's not always "shiny" in a good way or things that we like? Going the other way in things that one doesn't like or things that are negative...the focus or hyper-focus...can go that way too? Unconfirmed...just my experience with this?
How I am translating this to my wife and her "obsessive thinking" or "ruminating negative thoughts"...she ruminates and focuses almost entirely at times...in some very predictable ways because of it but more importantly....they have to do with her environment which is where we run into trouble over this? As it appears to me however....there is a theme..or "ONE" singular motivation or goal within her actions and behaviors and that "theme" is actually just the same thing getting repeated over and over again. Within everything that falls under this "theme" as it were.....she remembers those things with such incredible detail and accuracy....it might appear as if she has a good memory there...but not in the other things I mentioned?
The problem with that if you aren't paying attention to it closely as I have noticed is.....it's only really remembering a few things or a "short list of things"....which are always there and nothing new to remember in that case? This is "long term memory" within all of those things that she can remember so well....since they are the same theme....the same shiny negative thing....and is just a repeat of the same thing but now in put into context to what is happening now? That as I see it.....( in terms of what appears to good memory in some things ) is not really a good memory at all speaking in those terms and including what I just said into it? it's the short term memory that is really the thing that's absent or missing in these examples with my wife and what I said about...if you can't remember what you said 5 minutes ago....you aren't going to remember it next week are you? That would be a case in saying that no short term means....NO long term either?
This is the most baffling part about having ADHD for me? This memory of mine is the one thing that I have always been aware of for most of my life? The reason I know this is because of the feedback I get that tells me that...otherwise...I would have no idea? I can't know what another persons memory is like...to know how mine is different right?
My short term memory is as bad as the next person and in terms of ADHD....my short term memory is as much a problem for me in remembering dates and times and things that get me into trouble but it's not the most troubling aspect for me at least? From the sound of it....those with ADHD that I heard about...have much more problems with that from the sound of it even though...I can be pretty bad in my moments too but not all the time and when I say that....( in the consistent times vs the inconsistent failures ) my memory is scary good to the point of almost photographic? The visual learning and memory thing is what I remember mostly and with that ....very accurately as if looking at a sign and just reading the sign and not having to remember what "the sign said".
So in respect to this...I don't have to remember what the "sign said"....when I can pull the image of the sign up in my memory...and just read it like a book in front of me? It's why I use to get frustrated with teacher who just stood in front of the class and "talked" without writing things on the black board or having a book with photos or pictures to accompany the "words" at the same time? The words are less important...than just a quick glance at a picture since I can remember everything in that picture with such detail an accuracy...it's scary...even to me? lol
A picture really is worth a thousand words having ADHD. I can skip the words...look at a picture...and do that in a fraction of the time if someone were to try and say it verbally? Like in instant of split second and I understand completely....clearly and with no questions about what ever it is I looking at? ( sorry...dangling participle lol ) I also have ( if you haven't noticed ) a rather extensive and vivid imagination and coming up with many ways to say the same thing which is just part of my perseveration which is not always bad...when people need that to remember things. It;s only bad when they don't and already heard it the first time? LOL
And too the point and saying the difference? I can remember most of what I've said here and even within the stories I've told....I may repeat those at times...with complete intention awareness to connect and re-connect that ( again ) to the same scenario or topic...with intention? That's not perseveration...that's just repeating it for a purpose that I'm aware of?
But in respect to others who have ADHD and my wife now included? She can't look at a picture and remember that either? It seems to make no difference whether you say it...and to the point....seeing it is almost worse? The extreme opposite of me in that way which makes no sense to me....in what I experience having ADHD??
And especially before I came here...and for a good time before that when discovering about ADHD and learning what I could? Thinking that if other people have ADHD...then they should have the same qualities in that respect.....but not the opposite if that makes sense?
And why is that? I don't know? But purely speculating here in terms of....an anxious / preoccupied person who can't NOT remember things and has seemingly no ability to block anything.....to.....an avoidant / dismissive person who can block damn near anything at will ( or maybe not at will????????)..and who seemingly has a chronic problem with remembering anything short term...and even long term except for the "few" within the same "theme" of what is shiny....positive or negative?
There is awareness...and then there is focus? If you are only focused on a handful of things....it doesn't require a good memory if that is all you ever think about? You will remember those things since they never completely leave your couscous thoughts as in the negative ruminating about those things on a continual basis?
But there is something that I thought was really interesting in spite of everything I said about my own memory that I think is relevant and also kind of bizarre here? I don't have any thoughts or conclusion here and nothing to explain this exactly to me?
But....in speaking about unpleasant or things that you might want to block....or maybe another alternative yet to be answered here and not to bring up and downer of a subject but only in terms of this memory topic?
When we were at my mothers funeral.....I was standing next to my sister and we were there at the same place where my father is buried ( right next ot my mother of course ). And as I was silting in that same place ( again )...I had absolutely no memory of my father funeral what so ever? Like none. No Deja Vou or any remembrance of that day or standing in the same place...doing it again as it were? Nothing? Not even one flash or hint of ever being there before in the same exact place and doing the same exact thing and here I was...and I was blank as I thought about this?
But where this gets even weirder......is when my sisters and I were riding together afterwards ...and I mentioned this to them? And they couldn't remember it either in exactly the same way and this coming especially from my older sister who remembers everything like me very well for the most part...was equally puzzling. My other sister doesn't remember a lot of things so this was not so unusual for her...even though.....NO memory of your own fathers funeral by all 3 kids at the same time...is bizarre and is really bizarre for me since that is so highly unusual in that case?
I'm just throwing that in there because...if someone were to ask me about that day at my fathers funeral....they might have a hard time believing me when I honestly say....I don't remember one thing what so ever? And now add into that....2 more people in the same situation...who can't remember anything as well...all at the same time?
While at the same time...I can remember everything about my mothers funeral with the same accuracy and normal for me ability to see it clearly with all the normal details one might expect from me?
What is THAT I might add??? ( all 3 at once??? ) I have no idea but it's not an issue or something of importance for me to know but I am curious none the less? And how can you explain...all 3 kids.....having the same thing happen at the same time and not remembering anything? That...is HIGHLY...unusual...to say the least but ...in respect to everything said in context to lying.....I'm not lying when I say this...and I have no memory what so ever even if that is hard to believe? ( which it would be for me if someone else said the same thing to me? )
J
Attention and blank spots in memory
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I thought about my parents aging as you described your wife's incomplete retention of what she said. Their short term memory weakened a great deal, but their long term memory was good...all the way to the end, and both died in their mid 90s. So from that I'm not surprised that your long term memory is good and vivid, J. I suspect short term memory is the issue, that and getting something from short term memory into long term memory.
I think there are other reasons for something that happened or was said not going into short term memory in the first place, no matter the limits on that person's short term memory. Emotional blocking could keep something from going in, in the first place. But speaking only for myself...you'd have to check yourself out on this one regarding whether or not it is true for me, the very big and most persistent obstacle I have to remembering something that happened or I said....which we sure need to do if we're going to live with other people.... is that I am not paying attention in the first place.
Sometimes people on this site or in professional advice type articles about how people without ADHD ought to live with people with ADHD or the reverse, treat certain of the human limitations in play in the relation as if if one of the couple has it and (your choice, has ADHD, doesn't have it) that means that the other in the couple can't have it. Now that is REALLY creating an arbitrary false binary! I happen to be a person who lives in her head a huge amount of the time. I call myself a woolgatherer. I'm flooded in my mind. No I don't have ADHD. I am off living in other realms, unless I make an effort or use habitual practices, to lock my attention on things in the physical world. I can REALLY miss something that happens right under my nose. I have a good, practiced, detailed short term memory, but my issue is did I notice that in the first place? Not notice? I of course don't remember it. I also have noticed that I mess up doing something physical, nearly always because I wasn't focused in my attention doing it. I'm guessing, that people with ADHD have this very same issue with their short term memory: if you don't notice when it's going on, nothing goes into the memory about it going on. I suggest that you consider this regarding your wife. It's true for me. Didn't notice? "blank spots " in her memory.
If you have a perseveration habit as you speak that in itself through its repetitions, helps you remember what you said, why should she?
On the thing of short term memory that I saw develop, apparently as a result of advanced bodily aging, in my parents as they went from their 70s to the end of their life, their short term memory gaps were characteristically different than what I see in my husband and mine. I talked with my aging mother about her memory a lot. Again, she kept a very good long term memory her whole life....she wasn't an Alzheimer old lady....in fact she said that in the last years, she would go back into her long term memory in her mind, and interact with people there in it, as she went to sleep at night.
But about short term memory, she said that she would start to say a sentence, and then, for the life of her, not remember a word that she needed, and it was just not there. In other things, she was like your wife, as you report your wife. Both my parents, and a whole lot of elderly people I know about and know do that repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat of the same thought, or the same anecdote.
I do think this: There are all kinds of ways to work on short term memory problems. The net is loaded with people with ADHD talking about how they get their external aids to retain what their short term memory isn't retaining. People without ADHD use aids as well. I do. I have a bout 3 different online reminder systems going, although I don't have that wristwatch that you have J.
What I haven't heard professionals write about, or people with ADHD write about, is developing remembering through practicing remembering. So I can't guess whether or not people with ADHD can increase short term memory through memory practice. That's different from using the outside support of things like watches, Google calendars, or my combo of reminders and a couple other things on my electronic devices.
So speaking only for myself, yes, I can develop short term memory... IF I notice or focus on something in the first place.
No focus or notice? Forget it. To me, it never existed in the first place. So I can see your wife focusing on something else than her words, and not retaining them. She could be focusing on you, J. She could be flooded with feeling. Who knows, you could have been talking to her while she was doing something. I for one, if I'm doing something physical for which I need my attention (and remember, I'm a woolgatherer and do very often have to focus hard on what I'm doing physically), am not listening with full attention if someone is talking, too. I almost always say, "wait a minute. I'm about done here. Give me a minute and then I can talk."
What short term memory have I developed of late? Well not much. I'm not into those Luminosity brain training things. But I have had a lifelong wretched ability to retain long strings of numbers well enough to copy the things down. I'd have to check a long number over and over again as I copied it. Something the length of a credit card number, for example. But since we all have had to move more to dealing with long strings of numbers, I notice taht I used to be able to retain two to three digits, to copy them, and now I can retain about 8 easily. This is no great feat, but the point is, my retention shifted through practicing. No surprise.
Like Vabeachgal said, it's a lot of energy for the person who has been affected by the otehr person blanking, to run through it all unto the memory blanker fills in th ememory gap, and then finally there can be whatever conversation is needed for the relation. I'm not going to inhabit that role, myself. Its parental, and what a joykiller it is for someone to be boxed into parent-like behavior dealing with another grownup. Not going to do it. I have, for myself, a "give it one good shot, and then let it go, you can't make anyone believe you, or see what you see, or do what you want them to do," rule for myself. I'm not the Fixer of the Universe. My husband and I both use writing in our work. He has come to trust me a lot more than where we began, at the beginning of the marriage. I write it. Then it's his job and his freedom to read it or not, believe it or not, or act on it or not. I wouldn't advise other people to do this....for one thing, if writing is not an ordinary means of communication between the two people, and itself is given some credence, it won't work as a help with memory gapping.
Back to my bottom line: if I have blank spots about what my husband does, what I do, what I say, or what is going on around me in my environment, a very high amount of the time it's because I didn't notice what my husband did or said, what I said, or what was going on around me in the first place. I propose to you that this also describes where some short term memory gaps come from for people with ADHD.
The question, is what to do about it. I don't think it does any good for someone to get on my case about what I don't remember because I didn't pay attention to it in the first place. Or for me to do that to my husband, who is in his mind a massive amount of the time, as well, and yes indeed doesn't notice where he put things, what he did, what he said, what I said a LOT. Ragging on him or judging him because he didn't notice, so didn't remember, so didn't think over, so didn't come to his own conclusion that he was failing to treat me well, will get zero benefit out of it for him, or for me. It's ragging on him for a FACT, a sequence of physical/mental facts. I would be a real stinker to shame him for his not noticing. A double stinker, since as a matter of fact, I have to work very hard all the time to keep my attention connected to what I'm doing in the external world.
The question is what to do about making up for memory gaps, when what was gapped was something important to wellbeing. The question is what the adult who has the memory problem is going to do about it.
Vabeachgal, if you're reading, I read what you said about lying to cover up. That's so tough. You're right, only your husband can change his lying.
Excersising Your Brain NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I think your thoughts about what people with ADHD have mentioned about needing 'external que's" to remember things? I have a personal theory on this which I can state in repeating a well know phrase?
"Necessity...is the mother of invention?" I have my own personal thoughts about this and this goes with saying....what I do remember distinctly as a small child. Was struggling tremendously..and everything seemed "hard"...where I would notice.....it did not appear so hard for other kids my age? This...was not something that went by me or that I did not notice? But this is where ( I believe ) that enabling is so detrimental and where in my case...there was a "silver lining" to my family situation which was less than ideal? This is where that intuition came into play? I had these funny feelings that things were not right...over here.....and I felt they were....over there? Despite...and in very much "opposition" to what I was told to do by my parents.....I seemingly went with my feeling and not them...which was both....crippling to me on one hand...and a salvation...yet to be manifested?
If you are...."on your own"...as it were, before you should be ( becoming self reliant to escape ).....as I had said in jest.....I became an escape artist in that respect....but escaping into the "real world"..and having to learn those skills early? Fighting your own fights...and taking care of your own needs and not relying or trusting that they will get met at home which they weren't?
I didn't know what I wanted..or even knew what my needs were exactly.....what I knew was that feeling that I cannot pin point exactly...that I just followed kind of blindly...which in my case....this was the ONE right thing I did....despite my parents telling me I was wrong? In essence to this... I was chomping at the bit...to get the Hell out of Dodge early...and couldn't wait for the first opportunity..to split the program and literally ESCAPE...from the nest ( not just leave )...and doing that requires a lot of mental exercise and learning things....the "hard way".
What I was saying to DO...about....what is hard? And feeling the "pain"? In terms of know how...and learning what you need to do to do this and still maintain some semblance of balance between ...home....and .....freedom.....that is quite a tap dance to learn...and necessity is the mother of invention when it comes to "tap dancing". I was a regular Fred Astaire by the time I was in JR High School.....but in terms of ADHD and all things coming together here and my own personal theory?
Can you train your brain to have better memory? What my T said rings very true for me in all of this? ADHD....is the most changeable of all the disorders you can bring to the table? In terms of severity and how they measure this? I get this funny feeling...that I was not what you would call a 'mild case" and I was more severe to start with? I became...not so severe..and to the point...am considered moderate ( now ) by anyone assessing me?
But that's not what I remember to start with? What I remember was how difficult everything was all the time...and I felt completely inept and without any "skills" what so ever aside from Art and drawing which stood out like a sore thumb. That was a gift and a true gift in that this was not only easy....I didn't even have to try? But it you stop and think about this....how far does that take you...even as a kid? Not too far...let me tell you? And that was at the time....pretty worthless or of no value as I felt that compared to what I was so lacking in?
And that's where that intuition or "little voice"...is telling you...."you better listen...and you better do something about this"....which is where the "need" to do that and figure this out...came from the need to get the Hell out of Dodge as much and as often as possible...which requires you to "get those skills in a hurry...and not waste any time."
My secret thoughts or feelings that I never shared with anyone was.....I am behind here...and I need...not to be....badly...and with that...the goal was to get away...and to learn how to do this and survive? Survival skills in the real world....are different than the ones in your own head or in psychological terms?
I can remember some distinct "thoughts" that were my own repetitive theme. "I can't afford...not to over come these ( issues )." "I can't afford to have someone teach me since where is that going to happen?" And I can't afford to let these things get in my way....because what I want...is not to be here and it's a big bad scary world out there...so something got to happen here?"
And then there was this feeling I kept following..and when ever I did....something good seemed to happen? And when I didn't.....something bad happened in stead? The price of following this feeling.....(not so much my thoughts or of any awareness of what that feeling was? ) it seemed was exactly why I got punished...but from my own experience with that feeling and what it was telling to me do.....the good that I got out of following that feeling...was worth the price of admission in the form of punishment....10 fold.
So in respect to this feeling....."dependency"....."enabling"...and anything that stood in the way of that feeling as those were.....was like the devil to me and something to not listen to..and not "do as I was told." Doing as I was told....was bad for me in one respect....and doing what you are told not to do ( which secretly was following the feeling instead ) was bad for me in another respect in the punishment from the outside....which was nothing compared to the punishment on the inside...from staying that way instead?
So in terms to put this into ADHD context? Becoming ODD...was not just something that happened or I was just acting out? Being ODD in respect to this 'feeling"...was following what it was saying.....not myself...or what anyone else said? Any punishment I received along the way for disobeying my parents or people on the outside....was just the price you had to pay and learning from the school of hard knocks.....seemed the only way to do it?
So the goal here for me...was to get away as often as I could from what was "wrong" but I couldn't explain it? To going anywhere that felt 'right" and staying there as long as I could? As long as I didn't have to go home.....that was already better....than doing nothing and just trying to deal with it at home and be stuck.....in "Groundhog Day"...which really was just repeating the same old thing?
What ended up doing...was NOT the same thing by any means which is learning "HOW TO."...instead of....."How not to"....which is what I got at home? I really feel this was a "cure" so to speak...for having a disorder....that no one knew I had even me? So in essence to this....."nurture" had everything to do with this...and I was allowing nature ( or my intuition ) to show me the way away from "nuture"...to as I saw it...something better and my feelings were telling this without having any idea what they were telling me?
At this point...what they were telling me......that the more I did what I did...the better I felt? What I believe I was doing ( and the feeling that was part of having ADHD ) was listening to my body...instead of listening to my parents as my only means to compensate for that....you don't realize is there getting in the way?
There is something to be said for "flying by the seat of your pants"...in that...if you need to "fly and airplane" ( or Bi-plane like a Barnstormer from where that saying came from )...the only way your going to learn with no instructors around...is to get in the plane and start pulling levers and pushing buttons until it starts to move and you get a handle or feel for it...so you can escape into the air and fly....with no instruction book handy? LOL
I guess this is fate..stepping in since fate is the destination....once your on the road called destiny? And in my case....destiny was the road out of Dodge..and that was a choice that I made which all came from that feeling and following it...instead of the powers that be?
So in respect to where I started and the reasons why for me? I was severe at one time...and I became better because of it and flying by the seat of my pants on a wing and a prayer sometimes...was the method I used to get me there? Not one I would recommend or without it's draw backs...but....I think I would be a lot worse off now...if I hadn't done that? Just my two bits for what it's worth?
J
Answering My Own Question Here
Submitted by kellyj on
In a good way....I had to remember again...that I was in that state of denial when my own father died? I do remember only one thing about that time? In terms of feelings...there was only one that I had? Guilt. For not feeling sad? What I felt was a great relief in that....the that over powering presence that I found to be debilitating...was gone and this felt like a huge weight was lifted from me and I felt "free" at last? It was a liberating feeling and "sadness"....was not part of that at all? I felt no sadness or loss what so ever? What I felt like at the time....was like someone just opened the door in the mausoleum...and I came out...as my father went it? Came out to fresh air and a new found feeling of never having to feel that again as long as I lived? And that...caused me to feel very guilty and I felt that I was a bad person because of this feelings of ...for lack of a better word....."joy".
Ambivalence and guilt...seem to go hand in hand? Maybe that's the secret to this memory issue and not.....remembering things?
J
Let's just toss out the etiquette books and do it our own way
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
LostInVA,
I can so relate: "Part of the ADHD thing is that they so strongly believe that they are right. I don't think he'll EVER feel that what he did was wrong. He believes that he's just giving in to an irrational feeling and he just doesn't want to fight about it anymore and wants to get past it. He doesn't believe he should have to give up any friendship he believes is innocent no matter the effect on me."
My ADHD spouse looks at the usual and customary things and wants to make them different. Here is one example from my own life:
I met him when I was 22. I was shy, quiet, working on my own recovery from growing up in an alcoholic home, plus I had bulimia and anorexia. I had just been unceremoniously dumped by a previous boyfriend, and was not looking for another relationship. My friend kept insisting she wanted me to meet her brother who had just moved back from another state. I eventually met him, he asked me out, and. . . . . . .
on our first date, he took me to an expensive dinner theater. I was fairly excited, and got all dressed up. It was about a 90 minute drive to the place, and on the way he told me all about himself. Then he said what no girl wants to hear on a "first date," paraphrased, but you'll get the idea: "I am sorta engaged to a girl in the state where I lived. It's not official or anything, she doesn't have a ring, but I moved back here to start my construction business, and then she is going to move here to join me. I want to meet some girls who can be my friends."
To this day, my spouse is oblivious as to how this affected both of us. Whoo boy, that other girl was furious. (I did not find this out till a long time later.) She tried to explain her position that a person does not "meet new friends" by spending big bucks taking another woman to a fancy dinner theater, especially when that person was supposed to be saving up $$$ to start his business to start off their married life.
To this day, he insists he never told me he was engaged. When I tried to explain that I would NOT have gone out with him if I had known the circumstances of his relationship with another woman, he does not get it. I felt HORRIBLE when I discovered I went out on a date with a man who was engaged to someone else. That is his oblivion. He just doesn't get how his behavior is perceived by anyone else. He is right. We are wrong/mistaken/judging him too harshly.
It's scary how similar so
Submitted by LostInVA on
It's scary how similar so many of these situations are when I read them. I can relate to your story and empathize with what you are going through. I think most of us here have stories like that or very similar stories. I know I have. It does help to see that I'm not a loony. He keeps making me feel like I'm some irrational crazy person. I don't think I am, but I hate the person I've become. I hate how I feel when I'm with him. I'm a different person at work. I only have myself to blame because I can stop letting this happen. I see that he tries and everything sounds good on paper and the fact that he's reading books on how to communicate better, going to counseling with me; but I can't understand why this is happening. I KNOW we'll never agree when we argue about something. Just the other night, I had to tell him to stop yelling at me 4 times before he backed off and walked away. He says I'm being irrational.
And to make things worse, if
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
And to make things worse, if I say to my husband that my feelings hurt because of something he's done, he considers that to be unacceptable criticism and negative and me being too honest with him.
Oiy
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Rosered,
My spouse can be so odd in how he sees things. He insists my feeling can only be hurt if he deliberately meant to hurt them. He has no clue. . . . . . part of ADHD? I don't know. I just know I do not any longer need for him to acknowledge something for it to be my own reality.
Rosered, feelings, same here
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Rosered, My ADHD husband thinks this also..........that if he didn't "mean" to hurt my feelings, therefore I don't have the right to hurt. I've tried to explain this to him several different types of ways, and he doesn't or won't see it. (I can't tell which) He doesn't apologize, so I get hit with hurtful remarks AND then I have to explain it away in my mind. At this point, being 57, I'm tired and exhausted from having to do this, and not getting any "relief" from it.
I didn't mean it. . .
Submitted by mariel on
My husband's first (and maybe) last response to me being hurt or upset is to say that he didn;t mean it. He wouldn't suggest I have no right to feel it though, that doesn't go anyway to making me feel better or confident that he will try not to do it again.
I wonder if his response grows out of always being blamed for things you can't help? or if he just can't bear to see me hurt or upset so is trying to deny that I am? I'm trying to not expect that he can empathise or make me feel better but to work on doing that for myself. I don't like the idea of trying to feel nothing. I prefer to own and acknowledge my feelings and deal with them by doing things like journalling and meditiation. There's no point in trying to force him to feel (or fake) something he doesn't feel - If I could make it happen it would be as bad as him trying to force me to NOT feel what I do and since I can;t make it happen then trying just makes us both feel worse.
My husband operates on an all
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My husband operates on an all or nothing basis. He claims to feel responsible for all my negative feelings (even though I've told him repeatedly that most of how I feel and what happens to me has little or nothing to do with him) but for those behaviors of his that I do have concerns about, he does nothing to work on the problems. Example: it is a big concern for me that since getting fired several years ago, he has not applied for any jobs. I have expressed my discontent with his refusal to apply for jobs. He doesn't apply for jobs. I'm sure he never will But he does say how bad he feels about ruining my life and being the source of all my problems, etc., etc., etc. My thought is, "you know, dear, how about instead of feeling wracked with guilt, you spent a little time filling out job applications? It would be a much more productive use of your time."
Yes, my husband thinks as
Submitted by LostInVA on
Yes, my husband thinks as long as the intent is good, the act doesn't matter. Well, if I intended to be a good mother, but my acts weren't; then he'll be the first one to jump on it. In fact, he reminds me on almost every argument, no matter what it's about that I'm damaging the kids because I expect too much from them. I LOVE my children more than anything and I try so hard and I do think I'm good mother. I'm not perfect but who is. I take care of EVERY need they have, I taught them manners, helped them with homework, set good examples for them. I don't even swear! I expect them to do well in school. I'm such a horrible mom, right? But he knows that I'm very sensitive when it comes to the kids and he uses that as a cheap shot in almost every argument we have. I didn't notice it at first, but we can argue about anything; even sex and all of a sudden he's mentioning how tough I am on them and that they'll resent it one day. Huh?
OMG - Haven't I heard that
Submitted by LostInVA on
OMG - Haven't I heard that till I'm almost puking on those words "everything's a criticism"! I can't say anything! He feels criticized for every single thing I say practically!! Then he's mad at me because I shut down and don't want to talk to him or be with him.
I wish I'd read this post a year ago.
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
I deleted my post.
Retrieving long term memory
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hi, J
Yes, it's quite a journey to turn attention back to much earlier times, and receive in the present more memory of that earlier time than one had before. I think the therapeutic community has some good exercises to do, to go back there.
Sounds like you've done some settling with your past, involving your father. I'm glad for you.
Just musing, perhaps as well, adults later on have some mental skills that young kids don't have, that they can put to work in the hunt for more long term memory. But the adult has to want to go back there enough to persevere through a process that often isn't easy.
How old were you when you did the bulk of that work with your long term memory and relation with your father? I wasn't ready for that kind of work until I was in my 40s. And it went on for awhile. For me, at least, I couldn't force that process. It was time when I recognized it was time.
All best
NON....How Old?
Submitted by kellyj on
I was 25. It was when my father died and I kind of...woke up? I'm not blaming my father here but....with him passing and everything that happened....kind of came crashing down on me because this was such a life changing event? I have said this before in other words to other people but....what it felt like at the time....was when my "real life"...actually began? At the time....I knew nothing more than these feelings but could not explain them or put them into words . ( alexithymia? ). Sure sounds like it by the definition and with that....I started to snap out of it...and figure out...exactly what those were? I do remember feeling that hollow feeling of being kind of lost with no direction so to speak and the world seemed small and kind of hostile I do remember?
All I can say is there is a cure for that without question...and that can be changed. I do not feel that way at all anymore.....which is why I have to stop and think back...and then remember how I "felt"...which only comes when you don't feel that way anymore and you forget....which is a very good thing indeed? Not a bad thing to forget...but even if I remember...it causes me no change in how I am now and is not even painful?
This is the hardest thing to have to see in my wife...in that....resolving the past and those past feelings...is WHY I feel the way I do...and amidst a person who is avoidant / dismissive style of personality....."resolution" is not the default setting or need......and this is frustrating as Hell? In essence to this as I see my wife at times....I now the answer and I know the cure...but the cure is not going to happen...if resolution and clarity is not the goal and something you "avoid" as your personal default setting?
She is her own worst enemy at times in light of this....and I know it...but cannot convince of this even if I have tried? Her goal post ( as it seems sometimes...is in the wrong place....and if you're shooting to hit the target, it makes it difficult ...if you are shooting in the wrong direction?? LOL As it appears to me at times from my own....coming out of the Fog?
Thanks NON....I enjoy out chats and exchanges and it's really good to hear another person insights on the same things that we share in common? Very helpful indeed :)
J
Talking Around the Problem
Submitted by kellyj on
LostINVA,
It's been a while since you wrote this so I'm going to take the chance that this one instance is not a hot topic of discussion right now for you? I'm not going to assume anything here...but I am seeing something in this that sounds oh so familiar? Lack of resolution....and the problems that come from it? In what you wrote....I am hearing and seeing some "points" of discussion here that I see more as mistakes....than anyone doing anything "wrong".
I want to defer to my Bible ( so to speak )....and give my opinion coming from a different perspective than your own and some of the comments made here? In order to be as impartial as I can....I will try my best not to takes sides....but to point out the "mistakes" being made on both sides of your situation in an effort to differentiate the problem...from the person...and separate this all out in the hope that it will make things more clear and less confusing?
As you said these comments here " This story is very complicated and there's a lot more to it than I can explain ".....It may seem that way to you and I'm sure you are right and there is more to it than you've shared here but.......if I only take what you said at face value and not read too much into it......I don't think this is all that complicated to see what is happening so I'll just give you my opinion and leave it at that?
But first.....I want to get on the right premise because if the foundation is crooked...the entire house will be too? My Bible as it is....is the 4 agreements ( Don Miquel Ruiz ):
-Don't take anything personally
-Don't Make Assumptions
-Always Do Your Best
-Be Impeccable in Your Word ( the hardest and most difficult one to follow for anyone....in other words....we all fail here most of the time )
Okay...so right off the bat...there are mistakes being made in all four of these Agreements..or you could call these....principles to live by? I'm not assuming that you have Agreed to live by these agreement...but I have so I will present this to you as if......you and I have both agreed to follow these principle and work it that way so I can be on the same page with you just as a means to keep things separate? And what prompted me to introduce these to you here...is that fact that you mentioned "principles" at play here and what I see are two different "principles" being applied that are completely incompatible with one another and when that happens....the entire premise ( or foundation of your house)...is crooked, or askew..and consequently...the assertions being made within those assumptions are off base or (off the foundation). And within this metaphor....your house...is your relationship ..... or least, it's how I am seeing it from my perspective which starts out with the 4 agreements like I said?
Let me try and disseminate this better so you can see what I'm trying to say? The Topic at hand is "respect". I'm not going to assume or infer you meant your husband or you specifically as the offender and I don't see an "offense" right from the get go. I don't see anything "wrong" in other words....what I see are mistakes being made on both sides here in violation of the agreements themselves? To start and following through with agreement #1.....I'm not making assumptions....that's the first brick in the foundation I'm trying to lay here with you?
Let start out with your assertion first because you have made a few here?
- I do have some trust issues
- I take responsibility for not meeting his needs for admiration,
- I said he didn't give up the friendship because it was my issue with trust; but now I trust him even less. I don't trust that he'll be the one to protect me. I believe I can count on him as long as he thinks it's reasonable and it doesn't go against any of his principles. Was it wrong of me to expect my husband to not have anything beyond a professional relationship with a female coworker? This story is very complicated
- but I can't imagine that I could stand by and watch my husband go through that kind of pain and not do what I could to alleviate it if it was in my power NO MATTER THE REASON.
-There's a little more history to this than I present, but nothing previous to this was hugely inappropriate. My first gut instinct reading this email that explained how he was being so open to me and how he realizes that it MAY appear to others as inappropriate, was anger and pain.
- Husband, who was diagnosed with ADHD several months ago, sent me an email that included a poem he had decided to write to a young female coworker, who had a miscarriage late in pregnancy.
Okay....so here's what I see as the problem right from the start? Your husband was recently diagnosed which means you been living within the "effect" that his ADHD has created from the collection of all the things he's done to this point....that have either proved or reinforced your own fears and suspicions relating to your own trust issues and have enacted your defense mechanisms and you are coming into this from that premise right from the start? Everything you are experiencing and feeling is coming from that premise alone and is getting filtered through that lens right from the start. As you said....somewhat innocuous.....but yet complicated? That's the effect or the net result of the past....working now in the future and flavoring your thoughts which are pushing you foundation off center?
Coming back to center here......and first things first. If you have trust issues from the start....that's not necessarily your husbands problem? What is his responsibility..is to be considerate of this fact as long as it has been clearly stated and understood by him that he needs to tread lightly here and be considerate? Being considerate however....does not mean that he needs to protect you from your feelings and this I feel....is what you are asking him to do? It's not his job or responsibility to protect you or anyone else from their own feelings because...they're your feelings...not his? No one can make you feel anything.....your feelings are your own and they are what they are? And in respect to his feelings....the same thing applies? It's not your job or responsibility...to protect him from his feelings and the mistake being made...and the assertion being presented....suggest that it is? That's the first mistake being made here...within those assumptions and assertions themselves. Do not assume...that others feelings are the same as yours right off the bat...and once you know that they are different...then you need to respect that and that goes both ways always is this is going to work?
In reality......there is nothing wrong with friendships of any gender and you, me and your husband...should be free to have as many as he likes with whom ever he chooses as long as he is not violating any expectations or principles as in what is acceptable within a marriage as defined unless stated otherwise? If it has not been stated and agreed to otherwise....then there is nothing wrong with having friendships with a woman / man....and proceeding accordingly as if you were not even in the picture? In fact...by demanding that a person limit their friendships and the Love and exchange that happens in a free flowing exhange between everyone ( not just you ) you are in essence....trying to control your own emotions through your husbands actions and making him responsible for what he not responsible for? This action by the very effect and result this has....is isolating and debilitating and is crippling to your relationship and setting you up for co-dependency in relationship from your own fears and lack of trust...which from the get go is your personal problem right from the start? But reminding you here...that this is in response to....the effect or the symptom of the problem itself.
The symptom.......the ADHD "effect. ( him and the effect his ADHD has on you. Not HIM...the person...but his ADHD. And since he's not aware of this...he doesn't realize what the problem has more to do with just him writing a nice poem to his co-worker after her miss carriage which was an incredibly thoughtful and kind thing to do in that situation with a friend and someone you care about? Nothing wrong with that...no matter which way to slice it? No disrespect to you...no disrespect to your marriage and not offense or anything wrong with that...if you were to look at this like you didn't exist and he was just doing what a friend does in that case. A good friend from the sound of it which only shows his best qualities showing through? Asking someone to stop being someone else friend because it causes you to be insecure....is like asking someone to cut off their right arm because you don't like the way it looks? His feelings for his friends whether they be male or female....are legitimate and don;t take anything away from you what so ever? In fact...they only "add to" what is already there and bring more positivity "into" your relationship it does not "take anything" away? Asking someone to "not be friends" with someone or demanding that of them of that because you don't like it....is taking from that person....not giving them to them which is what you want? In terms of respect and what is reasonable.....this is not reasonable...and the demands and expectations or any arguments you could make ( along with those assertions )...are what are off base of out of balance to begin with all from your own lack of trust? Your lack of trust...is what is causing this reaction in him and with that......( the symptom, response.....and now the response ( his )...is saying exactly that. I've done nothing wrong here which I would have to agree?
My wife for example..is free to choose her friendships with anyone she wants? One of her ex boyfriends for example...still emails her regularly and all three of us ...( at one time ) have gotten together for dinner and to help her move in with me and there is nothing wrong with that? What became wrong with that at one point...was when he was sending some inappropriate sexual jokes in a chain of texts where she was just one person on the list and she told him to stop doing that and he did since the list included both men and woman and he was kind of a under head for thinking this was acceptable in the first place? In respect to my wife here....she did nothing wrong...he did? And I made a point to tell her that if he crosses the line and does not respect her wishes...then she should cut him off but not before? What he does...has nothing to do with my wife....until HE...disrespect ME by doing that? My wife...is out of the picture and this is between him and I and no one else now and I have no problem telling him that if that is what is chooses to do? I cannot control him...or my wife in this way....but I can speak up when I have been disrespected and that's between ME and who ever disrespects me either way? The friendship itself however...is hot a disrespect to me at all? It's not my place and none of my business to intrude on another persons friendship in that way? it's what I expect and I expect the same in return?
Is this innocuous otherwise? The answer is yes? No harm done and no need for concern or to be insecure on my part what so ever? If my insecurity is at issue...then I need to present that way and say so up front if this is causing ME a problem?
Was it wrong of me to expect my husband to not have anything beyond a professional relationship with a female coworker? I think what I said is the answer to this question? Taking something or demanding you give up something for a misguided cause is asking too much and is not giving into your relationship...it is only taking away from it? Are you going towards something here....or are you truing to go 'away" from something? If someone has to give up something for you....because of your own deficiencies....they are losing something...and you are gaining something...at the other persons expense. That is a lose / win scenario and you are the winner and he is the loser? This is unreasonable and a unreasonable demand to make of anyone?
The question or litmus test here always is....."would you accept this behavior if you were in that Position yourself? If you had a close friend ( or any gender ) and your husband demanded that you cut off your friendship.....would you accept this and would you feel that is being considerate and respectful of your feelings? If the answer is NO....then this is an easy way to figure this out? It isn't complicated once you differentiate YOU....from ....HIM ? If your "principle" say otherwise...then some form of compromise and negotiation is in order here and full disclosure of your "principles" but without conceding that he has to abide by them or agree with them if different? It only means he needs to be respectful and considerate to them and but still continue on with his friendship under any new agree that is agreed upon together. If you are making unilateral decisions without his consent based on your own personal issues or problems which is the foundation of these "principles" you have....then these aren't principles...and are just projections or false beliefs based on assumptions stemming from your own insecurities and lack of trust ..and you are not being impeccable with your word and taking this personally .....and you are not clean in this case?
The Response to the symptom here...... is enactment of your defense mechanisms and insecurities and lack of trust which calls for you do to something about this....not the other person in protecting you from your own feelings? That's like truing to control X...by using Y to do it? Y in this case,is your husband...and you are X here? If X is the problem...then X needs to correct it...not Y ?
If there has been no deceit or behind the back behavior to indicate this...then your husband was not only being open with you by showing you the emial ( with that intention which seems obvious to me ? ) then he's doing his best to do that with you...and it's you who had a problem with this right from the start?
I said he didn't give up the friendship because it was my issue with trust; but now I trust him even less. I don't trust that he'll be the one to protect me. I believe I can count on him as long as he thinks it's reasonable and it doesn't go against any of his principles. Was it wrong of me to expect my husband to not have anything beyond a professional relationship with a female coworker?
In my opinionl ( based on the 4 agreements ) .the answer is yes but it's still not "wrong". Your feelings are not "wrong" and neither are his. What is wrong ....or better..the problem is your judgment of your husband and the situation is not sound ( or centered ).....and you are projecting your own principles onto him without his consent...unilaterally...... and without allowing him to feel differently or voice his dissent?
When feelings become "wrong" for another person ( in your opinion only )...it's not the other person who's wrong here? Making the mistake of assuming and taking things personally does not give you any special powers to mind read and know what your husband is feeling or thinking? That's the problem and the only violation to the the "agreement" as in...."the 4 agreements" not the one you made up on your own for your benefit ( solely here ) and imposed on your husband by painting him into a corner with no way out? That agreement....is what is wrong from the get go?
His mistake...is not considering the fact that you have trust issues and are overly sensitive because of this and not respecting this fact and approaching you differently and explaining what he did and why he did it and telling you up front instead of just plopping this in your lap and saying...here....read this? If that's what he did....I don't know that either...but it is the impression that you gave? But beyond that...he appears unaware of the effect that his ADHD is having on you which enacted your insecurities and neither one of you realize this which is the REAL problem and the main issue here going back to the ADHD Effect......cause and effect......symptom, response, response dynamic. In all of this....it's the dynamic that is the problem and is the cause for any decline in your relationship? He has a responsibility there....but it not to end his friendships because you don't like it. Wrong fix....to the wrong problem? As you said this I just couldn't understand why he refused to give up this friendship if I thought it was hurting our marriage. You thought...not him. That's the problem. You are not the decider of his thoughts and feelings. If you are thinking for him...and using your thoughts to do this....then that mistake is on your part along with the conclusions and the assumptions that brought you to this place. You are taking on what he does and making it about you and that is taking things personally...and applying them to him as if...what he does....is connected to you in some way emotionally? He has feelings and so do you....they do not merge into one "person" ...as if that is even possible. What you get from that which is a critical mistake...is co-depedency and serving two masters. That is the critical error or mistake here...as I am seeing it? Bottom line here...the disrespect is on the side of the one who is doing this if the other person is not doing this in return?
This is story is very complicated and there's a lot more to it than I can explain, Not really....co-dependecy as a concept is easy to explain....difficult to recognize however...when you are inside of the circle within it? As they say....cutting off your nose to spite your face because you didn't know your nose was 'attached" to it? The left hand....not knowing what the right hand is doing? But in either case....these things are all attached to YOU? Y can't fix what's wrong with X....so trying to control Y to fix what's wrong with X...is doing is exactly that and saying it's Y who's the problem by not protecting X from X's own feelings which is not Y's responsibility or job to do in the first place? When your a victim...someone is always doing something...too you?
But I know he still believes that he shouldn't have to give up this friendship even though he has agreed to. Why did he agree to that? There is not a sno balls chance in Hell...that I would ever do that for anyone and be disloyal and betray my friendship to a friend. I would have told you ( or anyone ) to go jump in the lake and never would have agreed to that for example?
But one might assume...that he did that to avoid the fallout if he didn't. That is called "coercion"...and is not by choice? You already know how he feels here and that is highly manipulative and disrespectful behavior right there on all accounts IMHO. If that is....that this is why he agreed to this and went against himself and what he believed in ( he betrayed himself in other words...at his own expense for the benefit of YOU )..but these are all just symptoms of co-dependcy which is no ones fault directly speaking. Again....the main issue.....nothing to do with a friend of your husband?
That was your husband mistake. He betrayed himself and you at the same time for not speaking up and holding his ground right from the get go. Another is a list of mistakes made on both sides here based on the 4 agreements.
It hurts me to know that he values this friendship that much even though he denies that's the case. He betrayed himself again. His mistake. His job....is not to protect you from your own feelings and betraying himself because you have hurt feelings was a mistake and he should not deny what is in his right to own. There is nothing you can say or argue to the effect....that says a friendship is wrong. That in itself is wrong...and is built on a crooked foundation?
Not sure how to ever get beyond the hurt. That is up to you to find a way? No one can do this for you and your feelings are not contingent on anyone else? You need to own them first and that is more to do with you than him in this case?
I know I should feel lucky that my husband has been faithful and he does try so hard to please me (except in this instance). Even in this case. He has done nothing wrong here only...betraying himself and not giving in to what is "not right."
I I want to get over the hurt. Part of the ADHD thing is that they so strongly believe that they are right. All I can do is reinforce that scape goating is a really bad practice and is extremely disrespectful. Again....just another symptom of the problem ie: co-dependent thinking and or dynamic in the relationship.
I don't think he'll EVER feel that what he did was wrong. What he did that was wrong again...was in betraying himself and not speaking up to what is right. There is nothing wrong with friendships and extending yourself to others in a Loving fashion. There is no argument that can be made that could possibly make this...a "wrong statement" by saying otherwise?
He believes that he's just giving in to an irrational feeling and he just doesn't want to fight about it anymore and wants to get past it. He doesn't believe he should have to give up any friendship he believes is innocent no matter the effect on me.
What I believe...is there are and or were....multiple mistakes happening on both sides of this issue and the entire premise is "wrong". When the foundation is crooked...so will the house be. What is wrong is co-dependency....even if it's no ones fault and no one is to blame. It just is....and that's a fact.
J