Last Sunday my husband misunderstood me because he wasn't listening and it ended up in an all day long fight. He got so mad at me, cursing and calling me names. He does have an anger problem, always has, but these past few years the temper tantrums have been getting worse. He is currently taking meds for his adhd (just started) but goes without them a few days a week, and when he does everything catches up to him.
So, we were discussing his outburst and his anger issue with our therapist, who is an adhd counselor for kids, adults, and couples, but she directed the conversation around what I could do to help him out of this mood. It was like she was saying I had no right to get mad at him for not listening and then him getting mad at me because he thought I said something different than what I did. I understand it is the adhd, but I get so frustrated at this cycle.
She told me that I should disengage, not react, etc. Does this sound like something I should do with my husband? A child, yes. My husband? Do I not have a right get angry, to not let him know that I upset?
Feathers........A Word of Avise
Submitted by kellyj on
Change your premise right from the start. The best way not to fight, is to not get into a fight, that's your answer. Just because you're right, doesn't mean you will win an argument especially with someone who's been doing that longer than you have. They'll beat you no matter what even if you win, you will lose, it's as simple as that? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should? Could've ,would've should've......is always in hind sight looking backwards after the fact. With forethought, ahead of time, if it's always a lose/win....win/lose scenario...then doing the same thing every time and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. And it will make you go crazy if all you are doing is beating your head against the wall with someone who has taken an oppositional stance with you and they've dug their heals in?
The question I would have is this in a situation like yours: Are you the one advancing and am wanting something from him? Or is he the one advancing on you, and wanting something from you? If you are the one who is "wanting"...or "needing something" from him that he is either not doing or not giving you, then you are the one who is approaching him and trying to get something FROM HIM? But is he is advancing on you, and trying to get something "FROM YOU"......then that changes the rules of engagement and you need to know which one is which?
Are you on the offensive....or are you on the defensive? It makes a difference in how you approach him? That difference will determine if you get into a fight or not? How you approach, either scenario....will be a game changer if you are failing to consider this, and know which position you are playing? It's not a game in the sense for fun and entertainment, I realize that, but also realize, there ARE and IS a reason for everything? It is extremely frustrating having to share a living space and share duties and responsibilities with a person who has a limited ability to do these things in the first place? Your ability to do what seems easy and second nature to you, is not second nature and not easy for a person with ADHD. If you cannot keep that in the fore front of your mind, and realize that he is not doing it on purpose and not doing it with any offense to you in mind? Then is he is not actually advancing on you, and he is not trying to get you to do something for him, wanting anything FROM YOU and he is simply not doing it or doing what ever in a way that frustrates you or forgets or for what ever reason...is not performing to your liking, you at least have to be aware of what that "THING" is the he is not doing....or doing.......and what is the cause for it? If the cause is ADHD.....then you don't really have a leg to stand on like the councilor was saying? You don't have to like it, but you have to accept it and make accommodations for "IT" whatever "IT" is? Your fights are about something right? What ever that "something" is, you need to get to the bottom of that "something" and know why it is creating a fight? And once you do that and know what starts the fight...then that simplifies this immensely and makes it that much easier to figure out? If you're the one advancing, who is coming to him for something that he is either not doing or doing and you are the one asking, demanding, requesting, wanting, needing or expecting FROM HIM? You are basically wanting a "gift" given to you....and beggars can't be choosers? If that is you, in this scenario...and you are becoming hostile and aggressive in your means to get FROM HIM......then you are a hostile interloper and intruder on his space and territory which makes it clear what needs to stop or to change? If he is the one advancing, wanting, needing, requesting, demanding and expecting FROM YOU......that put you on the defensive now....and that requires a completely different tack. Changing tacks, and knowing which one you are....is the best way not to get into a fight in the first place. If you are already in the fight and he won't stop......walk away until he calms down and what ever you do.....do not reengage? So to answer your questions based on what I said?
She told me that I should disengage, not react, etc. Does this sound like something I should do with my husband? Yes, absolutely. You have no other choice. That is, the only option you have, there are no others here in this case, it's that simple.
A child, yes. My husband? He's not a child, he has ADHD. Next.............
Do I not have a right get angry, to not let him know that I upset? You always have a right to get angry, not one can take your right to angry away from you. And yes, you have a right to let him know that you're upset, he can't take that right away from you? You have every right in the world to do anything you want, but where will that get you and what will happen each to you exercise your right to be self righteous because that is what you are doing, when you start going down the "fair and what is right" road especially if you are the one on the offensive, the one advancing on him and coming to him wanting him to do something or not do something in the either or scenario?
If that is you, doing that TO HIM.....then, beggars can't be choosers, I'd change my tack and see if that changes as well? Whether you like it...or can accept this, has a lot more to do with it I think? Self-righteousness, will get you absolutely no where, if that is really at the heart of this for you. Like I said, the definition of insanity? The results will always tell the tale at the end of the day.
J
Thanks J!
Submitted by Feathers on
Thanks J!
Thats just it though. I do not have a self righteous bone in my body. I'm the easiest going person in the world, but he can cop an attitude like no other, especially if it is something that I want or need. Last Sundays fight was about changing up our routine a little so that we both could enjoy the day. He heard something entirely different and when I tried to explain what I meant, he went off for hours. Later, he apologized.
I know he's not a child, thats why I'm confused. I guess I don't expect him to throw a temper tantrums like a child does. We have 3 children, 1 with ADHD (the butt heads constantly and he totally gets in her face when they argue), 1 typical, and 1 on the spectrum. I know what to do with them when they throw tantrums (they are all older now, 29, 27, and 23) but even after 30 years of marriage, I am still clueless as to what to do with him. I feel that saying, "oh, his adhd is acting up", disregards any true feelings he does have. I hated it when he said that I was just moody because of pms when I had a real concern!
When we had our fight Sunday, I told him to quit cursing at me and that mad him even madder.
Sometimes I have to make things a big deal for him to make them a big deal. They are my boundaries, but they are big deals and not piddly things that can wait. Car inspections, yard work, house maintenance, pet care, etc...big deals that we are, were, in agreement with, but are a fight to get done.
I Also Wanted to Throw My Two Bits Into This....
Submitted by kellyj on
I can only speak for myself here, since this does not apply to everyone in this way. But because of my personality type, and by nature, I am more optimistic and more agreeable on one side the coin which is and was how my mother was, outside of any other personality defects or nuerosis that was going on with her in conjunction to having ADHD. She was, either by conditioning or otherwise, not a domineering person but in part the same as I became when confronted with a dictator and a totalitarian tirant for a father with was his nature to dominate and control....agreeableness is almost a survival skill you need and learn to adapt to an aggressive domineering person who has a "my way or the highway" attitude about everything? The "tale of the tape" ...or the end result, is always the way to measure this as I said. If you are always on the short end of the stick....then something is wrong and that something has more to do with you than it does the other person? Unless they have manipulated you into a corner and allowed them to put some kind of hook into you where you are trapped by some other means that makes it so you have to cow tow to them, or pay some king of price. That would be called "Bullying" and that can work both ways man or woman in this case. Men and women seem to have different methods in doing so, and withholding is one of them, as a "tactic' or "strategy" in order to gain compliance. The single most effective way for a person like this to get away with it, is to pick someone who is easy going and won't make waves for them in the first place? If you are an extremely tolerant, highly agreeable or just easy going....a person like this might have picked you....because of those very qualities. As I am saying this, I am using my mother as a case in point and even myself as a means to say this? But also saying, that passive or aggressive ...or dominant or not...is neither a male or a female trait per se.....even for men which the most commonly thought of as more aggressive. The difference being I think, is that by nature, I am more passive....but I can be and am at times very aggressive indeed where my mother for example, was simple not. She was just not an aggressive person and far less so than me as well as being passive which equates to being "submissive". I on the other hand, am not submissive but passive and can be very aggressive which is more stereotypically male. The difference is.....I am not submissive...but I have no strong desire to dominate. Domination, is the problem in all of this. Domination as far as I can see....is never good under any circumstances. Someone who needs to dominate....has got some issues to attend to IMHO. I thought it worth mentioning, as a added way to see who is....in the right....or who is in the ...wrong..,..at the point of engagement and who "started it" and then why? A person who needs to dominate and control....will usually be the one who starts the fight and keeps it going? It can work both ways, but normally....there is antagonist, in every confrontation and conflict you can name? And the antagonist, is not always the strongest one of the two. In fact, a person who has to dominate and needs power and control.....is usually someone who is actually weak in character and integrity and it's more a way of cheating to get there? A Bully...usually, will look for the weakest one in the herd to pick off first? If that is you in this case, then it's time to stand up and be counted and find your voice in order to counter someone like this. If might makes right and you got a my way or the highway person....then becoming "not worth it" to them, will make them go away? I just went through this myself, and by not agreeing and not conceding or allowing that to happen....then they will move on to greener pastures....when you become more trouble than your worth. More trouble for them means....not agreeing with them, Not agreeing and not going along ...will pretty much tell you just who they are.....once you do it and watch what happens. The tale of the tape with tell you who they really are when push comes to shove and you do not back down. One of the key things I remember my wife saying repeatedly as a force of habit when talking about her mother. As she said it "I'm not going to get into a power struggle with her." And not very long ago, I pulled that one out and started using it on my wife? Guess what? That one hit the bullseye in more ways than one? She became her mother....in how she dealt with conflict which was the chip of the old block as they say, unfortunately is the was the wrong "chip" in respect to her mother. Power struggle and domination...is the operand word. For me, this simple doesn't work. For someone who likes to be dominated, and likes to be submissive.....then I suppose it would? That's why I said, I can only speak for myself because that is just not me. If anything....I am simply independent minded and like to have some free space and some freedom to move about. That has nothing to do with anyone else....submissive or dominate does not apply. That may further give you some ideas to look and see who what roles and and positions that are taking, or what your preferences are to help you navigate better? Hopefully.
J
I really think that is a lot
Submitted by Feathers on
I really think that is a lot of our problems right there. I am so passive, so easy going, the peacemaker, the person extinguishing all the fires, the person cleaning up everyone's messes, the one everyone goes to when they have problems and I am tired. I am asking the other members of this house to step up to the plate and they are fighting back. I don't do well with confrontation or conflict. I am a peace loving, make love not war, love everybody, spread that love shit everywhere, do what I can to make others happy type of person. (I was born in the wrong era LOL)
I don't mind being submissive or passive or whatever you want to call it. But, I am tired of the all play and no work mentality that goes on here and that is when the fights start. (For the record, he does have a good job and is a wonderful provider for our family! And, my daughter works as well, too. Both have poor money sense and both would rather do their special hobbies than any actual work that helps out.)
I wanted to add that I am in
Submitted by Feathers on
I wanted to add that I am in therapy myself and learning about setting up boundaries. Calling me names and cursing at me is a boundary and I won't tolerate it. He knows this, so when he gets mad at me, it's the first thing he does. So, I tell him to stop, which only makes him madder. Maybe that is acting self righteous, but I won't tolerate that abuse any more.
You Do Not Have to Tolerate Abuse....Feathers
Submitted by kellyj on
Setting up boundaries are a good thing and making agreements or a contract as my T did with us was a really good thing. Having a third party negotiate and mediate in agreeing is great, and it you put on your list...."no name calling" and he agrees to it....then there is not need for a fight after that? If it becomes a "rule" that is laid down that he agrees to....then if he doesn't do it......you don't need to do anything more than say anything other than "hey, we agreed....I'm not playing if you break the rules". If he doesn't like that, then that's not your problem. I will say however, that name calling is one of those things....that can really only hurt you, if you believe the name you are being called? Just as an example....if someone calls you a "bitch"...and you are actually acting like one.....then I suppose that might cut a little deeper...than if you were not acting like one? And if you are not, you yourself.....what ever name he is calling you.....then why should it bother you if that does not apply to you? Really, it shouldn't....if shoe does not fit? I might be more apt to pick something that is really at that child like level? I mean, if a 8 year old called you a name.....how much weight does that really carry? For me.....not very much and I can let that go right out the other ear in that case since that pretty much doesn't stick no matter what name an 8 years old ( or younger ) calls me? When we go into fight or flight mode ( all humans ) you are operating at the level of thinking about 3 to 8 years old on that level of thinking. When your brain kicks into survival ..fight response.....that is on the most primitive and lowest level brain activity and what ever comes out of your mouth in the heat of the moment....is really not worth repeating or putting into credence into? It means nothing...coming from the primitive mind of an 7 or 8 years old which in the moment....that's about all that is? If it's only during those times and not any other time that is? If it's chronic all the time......then I'd say you have more to worry about , than just ADHD? Otherwise, letting go and learning to get past it, is a skill like any other? And if you look at this in the big picture.....you're having to do that....with someone who simply won't or refuses to do so...in order to compensate for their inability? Name calling, is just one of those things that there are way worse things than that? Saying "I hate you"....is 10 times worse....than calling me a foul name any day of the week? Now your getting personal.....calling me an dumb shit...for example is pretty stupid if you think about it? I mean really .....a dumb...piece of poop? How ridiculous it that I might ask? That'd be like calling a person a "Sweine Hund" ( swine hunt ) in German? What? Pig dog? LOL What's a pig dog....I might ask? LOL
J
Name calling, in my opinion,
Submitted by Feathers on
Name calling, in my opinion, is never OK, unless it is done jokingly or in a good tone. Name calling to hurt a person when you are in a fit of anger, is not OK. It is the intention behind it, no matter if someone is saying I hate you or you are an asshole, it has the same intention, to hurt. He knows that I will take whatever he says and it will swim in my head for days, weeks even and that is why he does it. Words are powerful, they are just as powerful as a fist. Sure, I could try not to let them bother me, I could ignore him when he says these words, but that just gives him permission to use them again. Honestly, if you knew me, you'd be proud of me for standing up for myself by setting these boundaries of not cursing at me or calling me names, because unfortunately, this was how I grew up. When children are raised with parents who verbally abuse them, and then these children grow up into adults, they don't have that ability to downplay being called a name. These kids don't do anything at all, except be kids and they are being called all kinds of names and having all kinds of derogatory remarks made at them. I am an adult now, but I still reel when a derogatory remark or name is hurled at me. It is my problem, however, empathy goes a long way. I think too many people have the mind set that when things don't bother them, they shouldn't bother anyone else and vice versa.
We need to stop telling people that words are just words and they can't hurt us. Words are very powerful. The internet is how we socialize and we do that by using words. Look at your replies, for instance. They are all words that you are trying to convey to me and others on this forum. Nothing but words. Books have the power to take us to some far away places, to unimaginable worlds and they are made up of solely words. Words shapes countries. Words like I love you can break or make a person. If I have the chance to make someone feel good with saying a few positive words, then I do it. There's a reason behind the old marriage advice of not going to bed angry.
You may be asking the wrong questions....
Submitted by c ur self on
(Does this sound like something I should do with my husband? A child, yes. My husband? Do I not have a right get angry, to not let him know that I upset?)
Hi Feathers, I asked these same questions for years...I felt I had rights...And I do, and so do you...But, I eventually started asking this question...How do I STOP this conflict??
The answer was; why do I think I can engage a person who suffers with distraction, poor short term memory, anger outbursts, and NOT experience the wrath that follows... When they can't hear, or can't recall, and make it my fault....
So, do we want to talk about our rights?....Or, do we want to learn how to live peacefully, in our present circumstances?...It's our choice!
Blessings
C.
So, I should let him think I
Submitted by Feathers on
So, I should let him think I meant what he thought I meant all because he didn't pay attention to what I was saying, he only heard what he wanted to hear? I shouldn't let him know that he hurt my feelings? I don't argue with him because I think I am right. If I ignore it, it says that I approve this. When I stand up for myself as my therapist has taught me, it means that I will not tolerate this behavior and his behavior/anger is not my problem. But our marriage therapist and you all are saying that his behavior is my problem.
I am confused. When my daughter starts I know what to do. I do not engage, but when she starts with how much she hates her life and how *I* ruined it by giving birth to her, I want to tell her how that makes me feel, but I don't, not because I fear her anger, but because I don't want to make her more upset than what she already is. When my son has a meltdown, I know what to do.
I just want these angry outbursts to stop. I feel like I am walking on eggshells, especially during the weekends! Sometimes I think it would be better if I just don't talk.
So sorry Feathers you are being subjected to these minds....
Submitted by c ur self on
No, you misunderstand me...It's obvious from this post that you are being bombarded by victims...All I am saying about your husband is, unless HE CARES, to give you enough of his attention to HEAR you...Then for you to demand it...(emotions raised over a calm loving voice) is fools gold!....It will only take you down the road we are trying to avoid to begin with...One of negativity and unstable emotions, because you want to force him to care to hear you!.....That never works!....
Look at it this way...If you left, and just lived alone for 6 months....Without any contact with your family, there would be no conflict between you and them....Any conflict, would be internal to each Individual who has personal struggles that they refuse to accept and manage.....But, what is happening in your marriage and with your family is, you are verbally pointing out the things that or obvious to you, but that they refuse to SEE, or are unwilling, or have no ability to do anything about...Expect victims to do what victims do, complain and attempt to use others....It's denial....All pointing out behaviors to victim minds that or in denial does, is create unsettled emotions in both parties...We have to be able to say NO, without emotion or guilt....
You said it seems best to you be quiet on weekends...That is a great idea, and how it should be, if you aren't being listened to...
What happens in the trap of pointing out, expectation placing, and seeking to change...is everyone suffers emotionally...
When the product of our marital relationship is constant harping (pointing out ) instead of shared respect, acceptance, and healthy love between us...Then you only have what everyone wants to get away from.... You can never progress in relationships or Individual living, until, you have awareness that we have a problem, and agreement on what the problem is...BOTH must agree....In your case like mine so much of the time...There is no agreement of the problem or problems and honest conscience efforts to correct them...
As our first marriage counselor told my wife...."Poop or get off the pot" .....If a person refuses to do the work on themselves, and be accountable to their responsibility in the relationship...You have no healthy relationship....And WHOA!!! be it to the one or one's ( This is you and me) who try to make another person SEE it against there will....
Walking away and quietness is the way that we manage our lives peacefully in these circumstances....Or either we just continue to stay unstable, pressing into a closed mind....
When arguments continue to happen, because of not listening, or there is no ability to hear...We must be disciplined enough to not try and force communication during these times...The only way to help or limit conflict that I have found is to not discuss anything with this type mind on the fly....
The only calm way we seem to get things done is to set down at the table w/ pen and paper and agree face to face and document the agreements...The only other way I have found to be able to share information w/o negative energy being produced is text....Once the running late, can't hear or don't want to hear whirlwind is out the door....I will put critical information and reminders on text message....I done with it at that point...
Any negativity that gets pumped out (disrespectful victim stances) from this point on. I try to respectfully listen to...But I do not respond at once...But when she is done...I will walk to where she is...And say...The way in which you just said what you said, is unacceptable to me, and always will be...(She has the ability to hear, and consider, short kind statements) How do you want to handle it.?? Then I walk away....That is usually enough to get her to see herself in the moment...And it's respectful and helpful for awareness.....That is the best I can do....
Blessings
C
I don't know, C...I do all
Submitted by Feathers on
I don't know, C...I do all that. I text, because it is what works. When I text then he can't misunderstand me and he truly hears what I am saying. I walk away when he is being disrespectful and using words that he knows hurts, he follows.
Am I trying to force him to care? I know that I can't force him to do anything. (He is more apt to do household chores and yard work when I am super mad at him, so unfortunately that is what works :( ) I do think he tries to get me to be more like him. I've told him before that I can't get him to care more about things and he certainly can't get me to care less about things. Sometimes we are a perfect ying and yang.
I think I am just tired of being the one to constantly clean up their (daughter and husband) messes and to deal with their consequences. If I don't speak up they will never know, but if I do speak up they get mad. I know they're usually more mad at themselves than at me, but their anger is directed towards me.
If my daughter does something, like burns her dinner, my husband will yell at her then she yells at him and then he gets mad at me for not speaking up. She then cops an attitude with me. Add in the barking dogs, crowing roosters, and screaming parrots!!! Tensions run high around here!
Talk, don't talk; hide, stay in plain sight,;do me instead of putting out their fires??? My friends ask me why I don't drink. This is why! I'd never be sober if I drank! Haha (Sorry, I hope that wasn't offensive to anyone. I had to lighten up the mood a little...)
Feathers, you maybe in the worst trap of all....Co-dependency...
Submitted by c ur self on
(He is more apt to do household chores and yard work when I am super mad at him, so unfortunately that is what works :( Mine tries harder also when I angrily puke up her reality onto her..But, that is not an option, I want settle for nothing less than a happy marriage, And I can't be the Co-dependent Mothering Spouse and expect that to ever happen...This was the most difficult for me to put into practice and still is...It takes daily awareness...
(I think I am just tired of being the one to constantly clean up their (daughter and husband) messes and to deal with their consequences)
This is also a perfect example of a Co-dependent statement...You think you MUST do this...Like life wouldn't go on for these two if you were not there...Well let me tell you, you are wrong...But as long as you feel the need and allow or make excuses to get sucked into THEIR Stuff, and make it your own, you will always experience what you wish didn't exist.....
Please don't be upset with me...But, I've been there to long...You must learn to walk away and let them receive there just rewards, until they realize there isn't a fix it, bale me out person around any longer...If there's always a rescuer, then there's no adult growth.....
Co-dependency isn't Love...It's the opposite of it.....
C
I know I have some issues
Submitted by Feathers on
I know I have some issues with co-dependency.I know life would go on for both of them if I were gone. I actually think sometimes my husband would be happier without me. My kids have skills that would allow them to live independently, except for the boy who has autism. I do think my husband and daughter would kill each other if I weren't around LOL I would love nothing more than if all my kids were living on their own. Please, don't read more into that than what it is - a vent. I am not narcissistic, a martyr, or anything else but a tired mom and wife who needs to vent sometimes. For the most part I am a happy wife and love my husband and my life very much, but these past few weeks with stressful events and situations and getting use to medicine has been hard (Yes, I know it has been hard on him too...) and I just needed to vent while getting my thoughts together.
My husband has some very good qualities that I do love about him. And some not so good ones. ;)
I'm the one that is home though and the consequences of their actions filters down onto me most of the time.
I apologize Feathers....
Submitted by c ur self on
I can be to direct...Venting can be a necessary way to release our frustrations...Better here than to someone who wouldn't have a clue....
C
Feathers......I Deeply and Profoundly Wish I Could Say the Words
Submitted by kellyj on
that could convey to you my experience but I know that I can't. I see you, and I hear you and I hear myself in the past saying the same thing. I know exactly where you are and I know one thing for certain...no amount of words, will change how you feel ( inside ) and I can tell simply by your words, that there is a lesson here to be learned on your behalf. This is not about anyone else but you for your benefit only, but I know for a fact, that nothing more I can say to you from what I know, will be received and understood in the way I understand it and the only reason I can say I understand it the way I do, is from learning and coming to terms with each thing you've said myself in order to do what I say I can do....that I now is confusing to you. You don't have to know me, to understand what I know about this subject since I can have a pretty good guess at what is happening inside your husband when these "episodes" come over him. In no way, am I justifying name calling as a good thing or saying it is Okay. When you are talking about standing up for yourself...that is an area of learning for me that goes back to my childhood and by no means, am I taking a "victims" stance her what so ever. I am merely saying however....that I was a "true victim"....which is said when you are a child and subject to abuse. A child, is the only person who can truely qualify as a victim since they have "no choice" , "no resources", "no capacity" and no ability to understand, control of do anything about the treatment they receive and cannot escape their tormentors if their tormentors are their own parents. Their very survival, depends on their parents and they have "NO OPTIONS" what so ever, but to live with it and take what ever comes at them and this is a simple fact that no one can deny. And when all is said and done....there is not a worse scenario that I can think of....is when you actually have a bona-fide "disability" or even say "handicap" that no one is aware of including the person who has it? That is, exactly what happens when no one knows or is aware of the fact, that you are born with ADHD and have it...from the get go....and from then moving forward in time.
These words like "handicap" are no longer used since that is considered "NOT PC". The same as the word "Retarded" is not longer used to describe someone with mental or cognitive challenges and there is a reason for this? But before I launch into that topic to make my point about "words".....let's back up for a moment and look at those two words for a second? The definition of those two words ( out of context ) or associated with people with mental or physical challenges...are just words now to describe anything that is a 'NOUN".......person, place or thing? When I work on my old car.....I "retard" the ignition timing to adjust it and tune it to improve it's performance. Precisely what that is speaking in those terms? It means, I delay the timing a little by setting back like the hands of a clock where you take the minute hand and move it backwards a few minutes in "time". That is exactly what I do when I "retard the timing" on an old cars ignition which uses the old mechanical means that they no longer use anymore? You do this, so the "spark" that makes the cylinders explode....arrive at exactly the right time in perfect synchronization , perfect coordinated or choreographed timing, with all the other moving parts of the engine so the engine will "fire" precisely when it needs to. This makes the engine run smoothly and will the optimum power. You don't have to know anything more about a car engine, to understand what I just said about the word "retard"? It simply means to "set back", or to "delay"....and that is all it means?
And the same applies to the word "handicap". Who has not heard that word used in reference to the sport of golf or used in terms of betting on a race horse? It is simply a way, of subtracting one score or time...from the other..and arriving at the difference? A simple means of 2 - 1 = 1....which is a lower number than 2 or the original number? And for the very purpose it serves is to "make things even" so to make it fair for everyone? That way, a better golfer who has a better average score...can play against and golfer who is not as good.....by adding or subtracting a "handicap" which would make the starting place 0 for both competitors? I don't even understand it well enough to explain how it's used exactly or for betting since I don't have any experience there, but without knowing any more than that.....I understand the basic concept of using a "handicap" in terms of betting and golf?
So why are these two words.....taken so seriously when applying them to something like ADHD or someone with Downs Syndrome ? It's because, people have taken those words and used them incorrectly and more ...use them against people with these challenges....as a means to hurt them, stigmatize them, and be cruel to them.....that's why? To be mean,.....to punish.....to make them feel "bad". Those words can be used as a weapon....to keep people "down" and put them "beneath" other people....to "dehumanize them"...."shame them" .....and make them feel "lessor than they are". And if you go back to my original comments about the words "retard" and "handicap".....as they stand alone without any attachment or any association out of context.,..they mean exactly what they mean and nothing else: delay, set back, put back in time etc..... Or....to subtract the difference and make apparent...the difference between two numbers and specifically....the "lower" of the two?
And what C was saying to you is also very true when he mentioned "you are being attacked on all sides" with a bunch of victims. Your husband is a victim. I WAS a victim. Anyone who was born with ADHD and their parents or the poeple that surround them are victims as a child since "everyone" but most importantly......your parents....expect and treat you as if you are normal and think of you as "normal"...but your not, you are "handicaped" and you are "delayed" ( or "retarded" ) only for the fact, that this is exactly what is happening inside your brain? Just like my example of the engines timing to get the "spark" to arrive perfectly in sycronynization...with the other inputs that need to arrive together all at the same time? And when they don't....your brains 'engine timing" is off a little bit? Actually and truely....what is happening is part of your brain is racing faster, working harder and thinking a million things at once..and is actually ahead or getting ahead of itself? For myself and anyone with ADHD...our brains are working over time and very hard and it is not because it's delayed or retarded......it too fast and getting way ahead of where it needs to be....in order for the other imputs to arrive there at the same time? Which means......the words come out of your mouth sometimes....ahead of your ability to stop them? You may be thinking all those thoughts as you say you do with your children.....but you choose not to say them, or to keep them to yourself? Can you imagine, what it would be like...if those words came out of your mouth which is exactly what you are really thinking as you said so yourself.....and you could not stop them or prevent them from coming out? Can you imagine what it would be like, to think a thought...and every thought you think., just comes out of your mouth with NO ABILITY TO STOP IT? One might call that a "handicap"....or "disability".....or "inability to control this "THING".....or even a "disorder". The complete and total inability to "stop" the words from coming out of your mouth no matter how bad they are or how bad you try and not do it......they just come out of your mouth....so you are afraid to even "think" anything...since even if you "think it"....it will just come out anyway? Can you imagine what that would be like, to have NO CONTROL OF THIS? If you can imagine this, then you can imagine exactly what it is like....to have ADHD because that is exactly, what it's like when you have ADHD? Precisely to the point. And if you get "punished"...."ridiculed"...."beat down" and "abused"...for something you have no control of what so ever? You might just develop an attitude......since you have no way of understanding what is wrong ? You think, everyone is just like you, but only use seem to say the wrong things when no one else seems to have this problem? And you are victimized and persecuted endlessly for a malfunction in your brain that no one realized including you? And you get called every name , dirty put down and disparaging thing in the book...starting at the earliest age and moving forward and it never seems to stop? And who's fault is this? The answer is......NO ONES. No one....is to blame and no one is at fault for this on either side of the coin. It's because......no one knows......and no one understands.....and no one can possibly be at fault....when no one knows or understands? Yet it happens anyway.....so what are you going to do about it?
I will say it again. "What are "you" going to do about it"? The problem exists...and the problem is "real"...and it is as much "your problem"...as it is for the person with ADHD?
I can only tell you, what I did about it, and what I did about it started with learning how to control it and make the words not come out...before I had a chance to stop them. In order to do that, I had to learn to add some "breaks" to my carr engine in my brain and I did that without anyone teaching me helping me learn it....I just did that by myself without knowing anything more? And I certainly didn't know I had ADHD but I learned how to do it anyway. All by my lonesome, but...it took a very long time to learn and I was "behind" other kids my age? I was delayed or behind...but eventually I got up? But in my own defense and in respect to myself....I had to do it....it doesn't happen all by itself? And in the mean time....I was getting called every dirty name and foul word in the book.....at the same time for not having the some ability...that everyone else had? It was intolerable at times...to the point, I simply wanted to die...it was that bad? I had no choice, but to tolerate it? My only option was to kill myself? That was my only choice.
That is, until I learned the most valuable skill of all which was how to make myself immune from the name calling, and not let it affect me? That was WAY easier....that stopping the words from just falling out of my mouth let me tell you? And it the mean time, I got better brakes.....but there is one more thing that came later when I got older which was the last thing I did to make this all work out for me? I got my mind right, and my thoughts in order....so even if those words came out....I tried to make sure that those words were correct of at least...the right ones and not just random "shit" spewing everywhere with no control of them? And to make sure that what ever came out of my mouth was not hurtful as often as I could....by getting my mind rightl..and getting my thoughts right......I learned to just shut up and not say anything....until I knew what I wanted to say? I learned to keep quiet and shut up.....which was a valuable tool indeed. I talked way less when I was little than what I do know let me tell you? I moved around in silence...and learned to be as quiet as a mouse. I learned by saying nothing......you cannot get into trouble. That I learned as a kid....who was being abused, name called, beaten ( physically ) at least by one parent...who made it a habit to make sure I knew, every time I "hurt his feelings" or said anything to hurt him......just like you are saying here? This as I recall started when I was 4 or 5 years old?
So you need to understand all of this, in order to understand where I'm coming from? And if you can understand where I'm coming from....then I think you should be able to understand what your therapist is telling you to do? I had to do the same thing for myself but I have had a lifetime of learning in order to do what I've had to do so that does put you at a handicap....compared to me....in understanding what it takes to stand up for yourself, how to protect yourself and what to do in the face of someone calling you names?
Non one can abuse you as an adult, unless you allow them to....but you can't make anyone do anything they don't want to do....which means it's up to you to do something about it for yourself? The most valuable piece of wisdom that my mother gave to me back when I was about 6 when I first went into 1rst grade and started experiencing this head on with other kids on the play ground and at school. "Sticks and stones, will break your bones....but names will NEVER hurt you" This, I took to heart and believed. I believed it so much, that all the names I was being called no longer hurt me. That's a fact ...the names didn't stop rigtht at first, but the funny thing about this that did happen.....when I stop reacting to the names I was being called....people stop calling me names any longer? When they could no longer hurt me with names.....then why call a person a name with the intention to hurt them....when it doesn't hurt them anymore? And....they stopped doing it....since I became immune it and eventually, if someone did call me a name.....I was better prepared with lot of come backs to put them into the ground. I got really good at come backs.....at had an arsenal of them and they were not always so nice or kind but, if doen well, and done right....they can be funny...they can be poignant and they can be used to put it right back on them...and make them see themselves more than anything else. But...at the same time.....people don't really like it when you do that...for the most part which depends a lot on the person your dealing wth. Some people actually like it when you show them the error in their ways. Some pople get pissed off and offended when you do that? And some people become hurt and upset and play the victim like you just hurt them? And some people with fire them back at you in a volley or excange and it's just game on from there and a battle of wits and thrusts and parries and jabs and take it as a challenge and just right an in and join you? Touche'...is the operand word...when they have defeated you or showed you up and hit the heart of the matter? Anything is possilbe...when you put peoples words back on them....but not matter what, and no how you slice it...the second you make it personal.....you lose the debate or argument. That is a fact...that was proven long ago in ancient Greece....so no matter what you can say good or bad or how you feel about your H name calling you......he lost, and you won.....and you don';t have to say a thing? If you just let him sit with his loss and not say anything.....he will suffer it every time....once it catches up to him from the "handicap" or "delay" that is going on in his head, since he should be very aware of that part? If you stay "clean" and give him no ammo to use against you and you don't screw up and take the bait yourself......like I said as a kid,....learning the art of shutting the fuck up.....is a valuable skill to have. When there are only one set of words....that are put out there and non of them are yours.......it makes it pretty hard to blame or find fault with anyone else or the other person ie; "YOU".....that's not too hard to understand? The overwhelming need to say something.....is a problem no matter which side your on? And if you can't control it, then you better learn to say the right thing and get your mind right more than anything else? I still fail all the time, but the ADHD is still there and always will be? I've just gotten better at learning all the things I just said, that's all.
J
I actually do understand a
Submitted by Feathers on
I actually do understand a lot of what you are saying, but I'm just not at that point right now. I need to focus on me and my issues a bit for a change. Every thing, every single thing in our marriage has been worked around his ADHD. It has been the elephant in the room. The single most important subject. Everything he does is because of the ADHD. I get why, I totally understand. And the reason why I understand is because I have quite a few of those disorders that no one sees as well. But, I don't get the same considerations as he does. Nope. I am told to snap out of it. He doesn't understand my issues because he can't see them. He doesn't see the issues I go through on a daily basis, and I know why. It's because of the ADHD tunnel or box. My issues don't penetrate his box, it doesn't mean he doesn't care, he just doesn't know how to understand them and it's because *I* don't make him aware of my issues all the time. For him to understand my issues he'd have to leave his comfort zone and he can't and won't do that. So, lately I have been screaming, "MY ISSUES MATTER, TOO! This is why I do _________!!! That is why I do _________!!!!" which is what my therapist has been telling me to do.
When women see me for the very first time, they tend to judge me based on my appearance and will often times say something nasty. I know when they say something mean it isn't about me, it is about them. Normally, I don't say anything back, because like I just said, it isn't about me, it's about them. They see me (I am very thin) and they see what they're not (they are usually very big), so I don't feel it is necessary to make them feel worse by firing back an even more rude remark. I acknowledge that I see them and hear them, but I do so with pity, because they should love themselves for who they are.
Yes, I totally understand how words like handicap and retard have 2 different meanings. My family has had horrible experiences with people using the last word as a way to describe them, and it wasn't used as a way to diagnose them, but to degrade them. That last word is not allowed in my home because of my family's history. It might be just a word to some people, but I'm sorry, not to me and my family. There are actually quite a lot of people who have issues with that word and the people who use them, not just me; there is in fact a whole FB page dedicated to getting rid of that word.
My husband is the perfect mixture of his parents and of course ADHD wasn't recognized way back then, or even when we were kids. I know the frustrations my husband went though as a student (we met as kids...have been together for 34 years), and thankfully he had vocational school to break up some of the boring weeks. Early on, when he was younger he had a lot more issues in school. We saw the pattern repeat itself with our daughter.
I know my husband doesn't have a filter and the words just flow from his brain out his mouth. For the most part I am OK with it. I like his raw truth and I like knowing what he is actually thinking. But when he is mad, and he has said this on numerous occasions, he says what he says as a way to hurt me, because it is the only way he can hurt me and get away with it. I do not give him any ammo for this, except maybe something I did or said that he had an issue with weeks ago that is just now coming out in this argument. I'm sure some of that is his not having a filter, but some of that is intentional as well. This isn't a new thing, like I said before, but it is getting worse. My therapist says that I am not at all responsible for his behavior (I'm repeating myself), but yet I am? She says that if he gets mad at me for setting boundaries, that's his problem, not mine. But what I am hearing is that it is indeed my problem because of his ADHD. *sigh*
Sounds like you and I had a similar upbringing? :(
*edited to add that I am in therapy for support in going no contact with my narcissistic family, mainly mother and sister, and in doing so a few marital issues popped up as well during my sessions. Those issues spurred us to get into joint counseling, but this wasn't the first time we have done counseling for our marriage. I believe he is scared of how I am changing, but his anger has increased within the past 2 years and my changes are very recent.
I have had this similar
Submitted by dvance on
I have had this similar experience more often than I can count. My DH hears some of what I say or doesn't understand what I say and acts upon his faulty, half- information and then we have problems. I 100% disagree with your therapist (sorry) that after such treatment, the best way to spend your therapy time is to figure out yet MORE that you can do, thus letting him off the hook for his poor behavior. I have done my time with therapists and more often than not that was the dynamic: the ADHD person has very little responsibility, the non-ADHD person has to do all the changing, which might be not fighting at all, giving in to keep the peace, not pointing out wrong information (because god forbid the ADHD person NOT be right about everything all the time even when they're wrong), apologizing in the interest of keeping the peace---all of the changing is on the non-ADHD person and I bet if you read more posts here, you would find many of us feel this way-the ADHD person has the perfect OUT all the time: they can't control themselves, they have impulse control issues, they didn't mean it, blah blah blah.
So you have a decision to make: you can pretty much not have a point of view about anything so that the ADHD person has nothing to get upset about or you can hold firm and endure the wrath. At this point, after 22 years, the only thing I will fight about is things related to my sons. Other than that, I don't care. Example: I often have extra info that would help DH but he interrupts or cuts me off before I get it out. So fine-I guess he won't know. He took one of our kids to a doctor's appointment. I have been to this office, there is a parking garage attached to the building. He told me he was leaving super early with the child to find parking. I started to tell him that wouldn't be an issue because the building itself has parking but I never got that info out and sure enough-he drove around looking for parking. Oh well.
I suspect I paint a fairly bleak picture and for that I am sorry, but it would be good for you to decide what is really worth the fight. In my house, after 22 years of this crap, I give up. Who cares if he walks around with wrong info? Not bothering me.
Thank you so much dvance!
Submitted by Feathers on
Thank you so much dvance!
The same thing happens here...I usually have some information that would make things a bit easier or help him out mainly with the kids or with my parents or money issues, but I don't normally get the chance to say it. If I happen to say it, he gets argumentative and then later on is mad because I was right. Sometimes he tells me that what I said and what he heard were 2 different things. But then if I don't say anything he gets mad because I never told him. *sigh* I cannot win.
I don't want to fight, I don't want to argue, but when I say white, he says black.
I've been quiet and tried to keep the peace for the past 30 years and now it is time for me to stand up and say enough! There is no box to check that says "Oh, I have ADHD, sorry I forgot to set aside money to pay this bill. Instead I used it on this cool new toy!" (Our electric is overdue and suppose to get shut off today...I don't know if he made arrangements or what, he hasn't said yet. But since we still have electric I am guessing he somehow got them to wait until payday.)
I've lived in nothing but chaos with this man, and now I'd like to live in peace. He can either get with the program or not, but it will only benefit us all if we can all live more peacefully.
I'm dreaming aren't I? LOL
Yep--you're dreaming! Haha!
Submitted by dvance on
Yep--you're dreaming! Haha! I have not offered up the kind of help we are discussing in a long long time and for a while it drove me nuts but I am over it. The thing that worries me is I see some of these behaviors in my ADHD 18 year old son too and I know he is going to be a project to live with when he gets older. Example: I mentioned to DS that I had to stop at the eye doctor and pick up some replacements of my one contact lens. He asked why I can't just wear the other one. I replied that the prescription is different in each eye and he absolutely 100% did not believe me. We legit had a big long discussion and he does not believe that anyone, not just me, could have different scripts in each eye. Another example: if I hand DS laundry to fold and put away after like 6pm he won't do it. He will say "I am not folding laundry at 7pm". Um...why?? No answer. Ditto with taking the garbage out--I got up the other morning and the lid on the garbage can couldn't shut because it was so packed full and DS was the last person to toss something but when I asked why he hadn't taken it out he said it was too late at night. Again...um...why? We live on the 4th floor of an apartment, trash chute is down the hall, we have tons of Northwestern University grad students in our building who are in and out at all hours--why oh why could the garbage not go out at night? There are so many more examples. I don't fight with him either--just not worth it. He'll figure it out or he won't.
Feathers, I have tried to
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Feathers, I have tried to read all of these posts, especially yours. I have ADHD, and I have to watch my temper or emotions. I think it's interesting how those without ADHD begin to resent symptoms and see them as excuses. I'm also surprised by how many with ADHD aren't being treating but are at risk of losing their marriages or families. The difference I have in my thinking and the control I have over my emotions is night and day with or without medication. I love my job - I don't want to lose it, so I take my ADHD medication, eat an extremely healthy diet, take supplements, and stay active. Even taking meds, there are many times I struggle to win over my symptoms - it's a time-consuming, exhausting mental battle. But I love my husband and family, and I have no desire to make their lives harder. Some of what you are relating sounds like his pride is speaking, or perhaps he wishes he could be like you - the calm in the center of the storm. I express the most anger when I know I am in the wrong --- until I snap out of it and realize that I am pushing the ones I love away. I have a friend who is introverted, thoughtful, and calm with her family. They all try to outdo each other with problems and drama, and sometimes I think they just want her attention. When my students at school try this with me, I let them speak in turn about what is bothering them, but I am very quiet as they each take their turn with a long story. Then I ask each one if their problem is really a problem for me, or if they just needed me to listen. I also ask, "What do you think will work to fix this?" Sometimes the stories are so long I will have them work on something with me, like organizing or something mundane, which seems to calm them. I wonder if your husband is trying to push you away - maybe he knows he is acting like a jerk and feels lousy about himself - maybe all his failures are piling up in his memory so that he is overwhelmed and mentally can't work through them. I don't think you should allow him to curse at you - but also I think mirroring his behavior by getting angry with him validates his anger, so I would go the opposite way. For instance, during a calm moment, tell him what you will tolerate (disagreement) and not tolerate (name-calling and yelling). Stay really calm. Ask him what he suggests you do if he begins to yell at you. But I would suggest that you not leave or say anything at all when he's angry. If you leave, he will get louder and more persistent. If you say something, he will use it to work harder to push you to get angry and retaliate, so that he's not the only one acting that way. Remember: You haven't done anything wrong. You can control your temper. You are able to work through problems with mental clarity, and I will tell you, that's something I envy greatly. Any time your husband is kind, say, "I like it when you are kind." When your kids work through their own issues say, "I am so happy and proud you worked that out," even if you don't agree. You don't need to fix their problems - instead, let them fix them, while you listen and stay calm. "I'm sure you will work it out" is a great phrase to say as you hug them and move on to enjoy your life. I hope this is helpful - it's late, so it might be disjointed....