Silver Splitters and Grey Divorces

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I am doing what I have always urged my children to do:  Make a decision, take no action, then mentally sit with it for a while to see if it the best bet.  

I do not want to fall into either of these categories - Silver splitters or Grey Divorces.  They apply to folks getting a divorce after 25 or 30 years of marriage.   I discovered both of these terms - just today - as I tried to understand what to do, and how to do it.  

It was painful to Google:  What is the first thing to do in getting a divorce after 30 years of marriage.  

A divorce is not the end I thought I would get.  

I see a mixture of both panic and anger in my spouses eyes.  I haven't slept well since mid-December.  I literally just cannot take it anymore.  After trying the 5 millionth way to get near any conflict issue, or any hope of renegotiating our relationship, I failed.  Yelled at.  Swore at.  (I despise the "F" word. Throw one at me and the discussion is over.)  Not one hope of my thoughts validated.  Not one hurt acknowledged.  

This will not fix anything by tomorrow.  It is still a long drawn out process.  The tension is thick.  The anger is thick.  My own panic mode of communication  "what do I say, how do I say it, never mind, I cannot put myself through this anymore."  Not the place I choose to stay.  

In anger he threw words at me a few days ago, "Do I leave or do you leave?"  

I am not a sneaky person.  I do nothing behind his back.  I just cannot fathom the difficulty in getting past this discussion of "I am really done.  I have had it.  I want - OUT.

I spent 4 years as part of this forum hashing and rehashing and rehashing.

 I try to talk to him or explain and say anything - and I get yelling, and defensive ness and told all the reason he is correct in what he does.    

I accept that.  I do NOT accept he is a person with behavior I want to live with or share a life with.  Not anymore.  It is literally ripping my heart out.  

I got my own emotional business done - have thought long and hard.  The emotional business of the "marriage" - that there will take some mourning.  How can a person get to finish all their emotional business if the other half of it will not?  

 

Liz

If you wait to wrap up your

If you wait to wrap up your emotional business until your husband wraps up his, you might be waiting forever.  This has been one of the hardest things for me to acknowledge and accept about formally ending my marriage:  I have no control over my husband's emotions and little control over his perception of what happened in our marriage and why, including what precipitated the marriage falling apart.  It seems irrational for me to expect someone who was nearly blind to the effects of his behavior before to suddenly open his eyes, admit his responsibility, and say, "You're right.  You want a divorce.  I messed up. Let's shake hands and be friends."  If he had been willing to do those things before, we wouldn't be where we are now.   

NotAnIdiot's picture

I have similar emotions, but

I have similar emotions, but from the husband side of things. With this topic in mind I have a question for both of you long-suffering wives. I have taken responsibility for my ADHD. I have been tweaking my med regimen for 3 years trying to get it right. I have burned through two therapists and one coach and who knows how much money. At last I have found someone who actually knows what he is doing, and I am very hopeful (even though I have to drive an hour to a neighboring city for my weekly appt). I have read a half dozen books on ADHD, both popular and academic. While I still have a long way to go, I have made some progress in the last 3.5 yrs since my diagnosis. For example I have gotten control of my previously maniacal driving habits. I am a pussycat behind the wheel now. Also, I never forget anymore when it is my night to cook dinner. I haven't forgotten in over a year. Also, I got my sleeping habits in order. I go to bed when the wife does and I get up at a normal time. I feel like I am doing what I can to take responsibility for this. However, my wife is entirely unimpressed, and constantly tells me that things are still the same. I don't argue with her because then she will call me defensive. So I just plug away at it. She is never nice to me, our conversations always revolve around my failures as a husband and father, and never about improvements I've made. For once when I screw up I would like her to just hug me and say "it's ok" and leave it at that. But nothing is ever ok. I must always be "managed" like a child. She seems to think that contempt and ridicule are good ways to motivate me. The opposite is the case. Ok now I will finally get to the point, which is a question. Am I being unreasonable in expecting a more supportive wife at this point? Or has 30 years of this just caused too much damage? Because if so I am not interested in spinning my wheels any longer. I can get this thing under control far better without her around. Please help!

I don't think you're being

I don't think you're being unreasonable.  It sounds like you've made a lot of effort, with demonstrable results.  Have you considered telling your wife how you feel, say that you think you're spinning your wheels, and ask how she'd feel about splitting up?  I'm not saying you should get a divorce, but your wife is best placed to give you an opinion concerning her desires and expectations.

I'm So Exhausted's picture

Measurable changes

3Paradigms.  He said, she said.  What he hears, what she hears.  We had gone to counseling together.  Then my spouse went on his own.  He came home one time and said "The counselor feels bad for me and told me in all her years of helping couples, Liz is the worst most punishing wife she has ever encountered.."  

I contacted the counselor to clarify.  She said she had told him  "Liz isn't able to work on her side of things right now, so you're going to have to work on your side without her input. I did say that I had tried to figure out how to get you (Liz)  to "move" off your negative position and had been surprised at my inability to get you to do so.  But that's quite different from "the most punishing wife I've ever treated."

I recalled a previous situation, where we had been in a different counseling session together and we were give a list of possible choices for our lives - and one of those choices was divorce.  Now he will say in anger "XXX said I should divorce you."  

Right now, my own spouse is in denial.  Discussions turn into "No I didn't"  "I DO the dishes" "WHEN is the last time. . . ."   

Gosh, I surely know if he forgot his day to provide supper because myself and our son would have nothing to eat!  So, now that I am in college, I cook if I feel like it, otherwise it is every man for himself.  Not how I would choose for it to be.  I just got sick of being disappointed over and over.  

And, well, "has 30 years of this just caused too much damage?"  - I think it has entrenched some definite patterns of dealing with it all.   

My frustrations have always been over my spouse's behavior.  Contempt and ridicule never work.  In our family, we never did any sort of character assassination - never, none.  No name calling.  No making someone else feel small.  

I would never belittle my spouse's position as the father of our children.  

 I don't argue with her because then she will call me defensive.  I guess this is a big dynamic here.  My spouse is defensive.  So defensive, we cannot get near any conflicts. Thus, he has to set his wn goals, and decide for himself if he is meeting them.

 I would love to have a list of goals posted somewhere on the wall - so that he can take responsibility and we can both see the measured success.  He just yells and tells me "If you can't see any difference, then I guess I'm just not good enough." 

I have my own basic guideline of what I need:   He can prove to me, objectively, that he has his ADHD under control enough that:

1.  he is reliable in the relationship

2.  he is more than 90% on time,

3.  able to complete what he says,

4.  able to remember what he should be doing,

5.  able to communicate with you when he isn't going to do something before it becomes a crisis,

6.  has the anger in check 

He still cannot hear my interpretation of his progress.  Defensiveness.  It stinks.

 

 

Liz

 

 

tweaking meds

>>>> I have been tweaking my med regimen for 3 years trying to get it right. >>>> Curious....what have you found that works.....and what doesn't work or makes things worse.
NotAnIdiot's picture

SSRI's don't work for me, at

SSRI's don't work for me, at all. Vyvanse worked ok but it kept me up at night. Also it seemed sluggish compared to adderall. Now I am on 20-30 mg / day IR adderall (teva/ Barr only - CorePharma is counterfeit amphetamine, don't ever accept it). I also take Wellbutrin SR 150 1x pet day - helps smooth out the adderall. Meds are ok now - I need to stop thinking about them as a cure and focus more on changing my habits.

wow....these are big changes

<<<<

For example I have gotten control of my previously maniacal driving habits. I am a pussycat behind the wheel now. Also, I never forget anymore when it is my night to cook dinner. I haven't forgotten in over a year. Also, I got my sleeping habits in order. I go to bed when the wife does and I get up at a normal time. 

>>>>

 

What do you attribute the changes to?

 

YOu say that your wife thinks things are still the same.  Can you answer this (honestly).   Have you "replaced" any of your bad habits with NEW bad habits?   My H does that.  When he stops doing one crazy thing, he starts a new one!  So, then he says that I'm never satisfied.  

 

Believe me, I am happy when he gives up a BAD habit, but if he just replaces it with something worse, then I'm not going to be happy long.   

NotAnIdiot's picture

I have worked really hard to

I have worked really hard to make these changes (modest as they are) mainly because I want my wife to be happy. But also because of underachieving in my profession - I got tired of my intellectual inferiors surpassing me. I feel like my 40s were pretty much a wasted decade. 

Good question about the habits. I honestly don't know. Maybe my wife is right, none of it amounts to much. It's hard for me to say - because the brain that is trying to measure the progress is also the brain with the ADHD. It's quite a paradox. Some days I give the wife the benefit of the doubt. Other days I am able to convince myself that I'm not so bad. That happens when I read about some of the lunatic husbands out there and I say well at least I don't do THAT. Lol.

Keep Plugging notanidiot

She is blind to the person you are becoming because she has felt so much hurt and disdain for the person you have been...

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Marriage or me

Rosered,

You are correct in what you said  " It seems irrational for me to expect someone who was nearly blind to the effects of his behavior before to suddenly open his eyes, admit his responsibility, and say, "You're right.  You want a divorce.  I messed up. Let's shake hands and be friends."  If he had been willing to do those things before, we wouldn't be where we are now. " 

It was an incredibly hard pill to swallow.  

I have not been able to understand how a man with such a deep love for Jesus, could look past the forgiveness stuff.  Our relationship was found and built on our Christian beliefs.  He has become so bitter and angry at people in the church, he has held onto bitterness and anger, and it has poisoned his heart.  Anything painful or hurtful that has happened in his lifetime is still in his current memory - pain al all.  There are no lessons learned from life experiences - there is just the pain, that seems by evidence of his anger and words,  that he holds on tightly to , to prove how unjust people were to him.

My hard emotional work was getting past the thoughts that I was: 1.   abandoning him, 2.  rejecting him, and 3.  not living up to my own wedding vows.  I have come to terms with that - not that it is all fun and wonderful; - I just have come to terms with my own end of things.   the physical and mental toll this has taken on me is tremendous.  I will not let it destroy me.  

It can be very risky divorcing after a long marriage.

Unless each person is well-employed, with benefits, and retirement, divorce usually means that one person is left with little money or a bad situation. Well, if the person who caused most of the problems is "left in the cold," then I guess it can be justified. I know of a case where the H was the employed one, and well employed, but the wife had been a SAHM, and she was royally screwed after their divorce. She had no health benefits, she got spousal support for a very short time and it wasn't enough to live on. it was very upsetting for her to see her ex living the high life while she couldn't pay rent.

So true.  Not until two years

So true.  Not until two years ago or so did I think my job and finances were strong enough to make it possible for me to survive a divorce financially.  I've been extremely frugal.  One of my good friends is in a horrible marriage and would like to end the marriage, but she and her husband are barely squeaking by as it is.  Add in having to pay for an additional place to live and dividing her assets and his debts equally, and divorce seems impossible.

I am going through a divorce

I am going through a divorce now with my ADHD husband.  He was the employed one while I was the college educated SAHM with a small business I run from home.   Since my husband left in July things have been stressful financially.  I went back to work substitute teaching and have worked even harder to build my business.  As of March I will have no health benefits.  That is by far the scariest part for me. I am applying for permanent jobs in the school district I substitute with in hopes that I can get a job with benefits. We go to court at the end of this month.  We were married 29 years and according to my attorney I should be getting spousal support for at least 10 years. Child support will be for 2.5 years.  This has been the hardest thing I have EVER gone through in my life.  Besides the marriage situation I lost my mom suddenly almost a year ago so I have been grieving that at the same time.  But, you know, there are some positive things through it all.  Somehow, I've made my bills every month, although my husband has been sporadic with giving me money.  My son and I have grown closer. I no longer have to worry if money is going out of the checking account when I am trying to pay the bills.  No new half done projects are being started. No more being blamed and called a nag all of the time. No more being ignored by someone who was supposed to love me.  Is it hard at times? Yep.  But, at the same time I am no longer overwhelmed by him and am finally getting to know me. I'm not the person I have been accused of being all of those years. 
 

My business is not very large

My business is not very large, although it is growing. That is why I am working as a substitute teacher and looking for a job with benefits. He also knows very little about my business and has never shown an interest in it. If your business is very profitable for you I can see how divorcing and having to divide the business may be a concern for you.  Is it something that you could start over after a divorce? Mine is in Internet sales and I could always start from scratch if I had to, although it would take a number of years to rebuild.

Boy did reading your post

Boy did reading your post bring me to tears.  I'm just started on this journey, once again in marital counseling.  This time I'm in individual and he is just waiting to see what the counselor says on whether we should be married at all... because he thinks I'm in a phase, I'm not.

Be strong, I'll be thinking of you.

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Authority figures

Emily1997,

It was a very long time ago that I found this bit of wisdom:  The purpose of a counselor is to give you alternatives and suggestions - NOT to make your decisions for you.  

We are each individuals before we are spouses.  No two are alike.  I have been asked how I could stay so long - my answer is always because I Iove him.  I wanted to make sure no stone was unturned in finding ways to make this workable for both of us.   

For me it is all about boundaries and common respect.  If you say you will do the dishes, then do them - or take responsibility for not doing them.  It is NOT about a sink full of dirty dishes - it is about doing what you said you would do.  If we sit down and make a decision about something, it is rude to just do something totally different because you decided what you wanted was the best way.  If you lose track of time, take responsibility for it - do not turn it into my responsibility because I was hurt you forgot about our date.  Being forgotten hurts, whether it was done on purpose or not.  I know about his difficulty with time management now - so I count on him for nothing.  There is always an escape clause.   Sad in my book, but it is what it is.  

Liz

Liz,

Liz,

My understanding of counselors and your understanding of counselors does not stop my ADD DH from trying to manipulate them to his bidding.  It does of course use more time which is money.  I too, actually we have spent 17 years working to have a good marriage.  We recently learned our issues are more than just the ADD and I did a post in the "other" category.  We seem to work out the ADD stuff better since he was diagnosed 3 years ago.  There is a lot of damage from the previous years and actually our marriage is based on false pretense.  I am emotionally exhausted from it all and "that is just the way I am attitude".  I think the ADD and his other emotional issues kept him from leaving me earlier.  Once I know the truth, I cannot unknow the truth.  BTW I like your quote "hello friend..."

Liz,

Liz,

 

this paragraph really hit home for me...and sums things up so well!

 

"For me it is all about boundaries and common respect.  If you say you will do the dishes, then do them - or take responsibility for not doing them.  It is NOT about a sink full of dirty dishes - it is about doing what you said you would do.  If we sit down and make a decision about something, it is rude to just do something totally different because you decided what you wanted was the best way.  If you lose track of time, take responsibility for it - do not turn it into my responsibility because I was hurt you forgot about our date.  Being forgotten hurts, whether it was done on purpose or not. "

 

My H and I had made decisions, agreed upon and goals to work toward.  I took it all in good faith that he meant them.  But at the first sign of any difficulty or just something new coming along (hello new movie about his addiction video game), it's suddenly like you said, the promises, commitments forgotten and put aside because he wants something else more at the moment.

 

fuck him.  Hope his game brings him fullfilment and joy.

Funny You Mentioned This

My H and I had made decisions, agreed upon and goals to work toward.  I took it all in good faith that he meant them.

People...are not "goals".  People...share common goals.  Individuals...have agenda's that serve them....couples or people in relationships to one another....do not "share personal agenda's".

If "YOU" are someone else's agenda or "goal" for themselves.....you are there or your purpose to them..is to "serve the goal...of serving their agenda's" and you are then being used.  There is nothing in common here and this is all about what they want...that serves them but doesn't serve you in the least.  Actually...you are just in service of them....there are no goals between the two of you in a relationship.

My wife and I have common goals and we have no conflicts there.  Where she gets confused or has trouble seeing (at this time....I working on this with her to get her see what she's not seeing at times)  is the idea of a "personal agenda or goal" that serves her only without being in service of "us" or what I want at the same time. This has the flavor of entitlement to me.....but I don't have difficulty being able to separate this and tell her so straight up.  She will get really defensive when I do this....but I just let it go.  Later...she will have a chance to think about it...and come back and tells me she see's what I was saying after she can process this and see where her thinking was confused.

You can't serve two masters.....addictions only serve one person and there is not room for anyone else in that kind of relationship other than be co-dependent yourself.

 

J

J,  yeah.  You cannot feed an

J,  yeah.  You cannot feed an addiction and still expect to have a successful relationship.  You know the most messed up part???  I actually don't have any issue with him playing his games.  I only have issue with his complete lack of control when he does and his absolute willingness to put that game in front of his family.

 

for instance,  today as I was unpacking some of our storage stuff, I came across a little letter from his daughter from back in October of 2010.  He was right in the height of his second world of Warcraft addiction period.  He had stopped for a couple of years, swearing he would never play again because it controlled his life.  Well sure enough some expansion came out and he was playing again.  He ignored me almost completely. I literally walked in the room 2 different times in various state of undress to see if he would even notice.  He didn't.  Anyway, setting the scenario of what life was like at that point....  So this little, precious letter... It said how she loved that her daddy would let her come over and play with the dogs and would take her to mcdonalds.  And the last things she said was that she wished she could spend more time with him.  I remember we hardly ever saw her back then... But we only lived a mile away.  He wasn't working... Just playing that game.  He could have taken her to school, picked her up, done homework with her, tucked her in at night... And he played that game.  And he thinks there is nothing wrong about the choices he made.

 

i would not care one iota about him playing ANY game if he could look at me and say if I never play that game again I am ok with that if it means being with you.  If he said that to me and meant it??  I would buy him the game as a gift, I would make sure he had the best gaming computer could buy.  I would happily let him have a night or two on his own to play while I did my own thing around the house.    I would not care if he wanted to log in every now and then to do little things here and there... I would not have any problem if he could do that and get up and walk away at any point and NOT have a severe reaction.

 

but.... That's not what happens.  His addiction to that game comes first.  And while he is feeding that addiction, he cannot feed anything else because it consumes him.  All our promises to each other??  Just in the way now so forget them.  All those goals we had for the house, fiancially, for our vacation to hawaii next year, for stepping up our "game" in our shared hobby... All in the way of his precious game. 

 

That game to him represents control.  He thinks that he is in control because he can break all his promises and "do what he wants when he wants and I can't say anything about it or I am trying to control him".  

 

He is completely delusional about what control is.  And that is directly related to his CSA.  Which he is to afraid to address right now.  And instead of using his brain and stepping out of his denial, he is creating a comfortable nest where he thinks no one can see his true self.  Especially me... His mirror.

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

This is not just a random choice

My spouse has been self employed for 32 years.  He has a construction business.  We have always teetered on the brink of financial disaster.  We got into debt, and refinanced - over and over - in bigger and bigger amounts.  Even a large inheritance was blown through by poor financial management and structure of his business.

Just last year we refinanced again and still have debt.  Thus, if we sell all we have, pay off the debt we will each have equal shares of nothing.  Being self employed, we have always paid our own health insurance.  We have no savings, no retirement. . . .and my spouse keeps mentioning getting a 250K loan to build a garage. . . . . . .

I have a simple country style way of life.  I am not a clothing horse and do not care about jewelry and fine dining.  

The stress and pressure I have been carrying all these years of managing our finances has been overwhelming.  I will do fine, once we start to figure it out.  I surely am not willing to just walk away.

 

Liz.  

 

We lost our first home 16

We lost our first home 16 years ago due to my husband's poor financial decisions.  That is when I took over the finances.  We purchased the house I am now living in almost 3 1/2 years ago.  Much of our conflict since we bought the house has been because I having not been willing to sit back while he spent us into debt and we lose our home again.  I truly understand being overwhelmed by managing the finances.  That is where I have been.  In our divorce I will be staying in the house but will have to pay him his part after we split our debt.  I will also get half of his retirement which is not spectacular but enough to make me feel at ease for a while. I plan on investing most of the money I receive from his retirement, stay in the house until I retire then sell it and live on whatever profits I make, plus the investments and whatever retirement I have from a future (or my current) job. I told my son I may be building a tiny house in his backyard.  LOL  Things may not go exactly as I plan but at least I have a plan that cannot be changed by someone else's randomness.

 

I empathize with you Liz. It's hard.  I know it is.

It it so frustrating that ADHD people are lousy with money

My H comes from a family where both parents had ADHD. His mom, the social one, was horrible with money. The dad, always filled with anxiety, didn't spend anything, but also did nothing to stop/teach his wife. So, H and his siblings grew up with the idea that if you have XXX in your checking account, then you can spend it NOW, with little thoughts to whatever bills are coming up. When H used to get paid weekly, then it helped somewhat because we'd say, the first check pays for mortgage and utilities, etc. But then he changed jobs and gets paid twice a month. We'll often run short before that next paycheck because H will have miscalculated and bought something (or told me to buy something) and then we find out it's not affordable. I no longer listen to him when he insists that we have the money for something.....because typically we later find out he was very wrong (he'll later say, "Oh, I forgot that the cell phone bill still had to be paid" or something like that. Once he hired painters to paint our home (I wasn't even aware of it until they showed up to paint. H gave them their labor costs upfront (thinking that was it.....but there was still primer and paint and caulking to pay for....another $600. So, again he was wrong and we were short paying. Now I tell him, do NOT think we can spend X on some extra thing until we have 4X available. H refuses to give up control of bills, etc. We do have most things on auto-pay and set up to pay right after paychecks are deposited, that has helped. But, they never seem to learn from their mistakes. Every day is a "new day".....They think anything bad that happened was just "bad luck" and not the result of a poor decision. There is a memory-less system in place.
I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Things will get better

If I always do what I always did I'll always get what I always got.

It is time for something new.  Handling mounting piles of debt, robbing Peter to pay Paul, is a thankless job.  At least it has been in my marriage.  No matter what I did, my spouse is just angry that there is never enough money.  He is unable or unwilling to look at the debt and finances, and just gets mad at me.  I am so over that already.  I wanted to live within our means.  

You cannot solve money problems by throwing more money at them.  It is about handling the amount you have.  Making what you have work for you.  

I am not sure if it was the ADHD brain wiring - but my spouse cannot trust - after all these years of standing by his side and having his back - that I know what I am doing.  

It rips my heart out to watch him struggle with learning spreadsheets.  The only computer skills he had are using E-Bay.  He can turn on a computer, find the internet, and search for stuff.  My daughter and I tried to encourage him to take a basic computer skills test at the library.  Yes, I am glad he is learning a new skill.  But imagine teaching someone to drive by letting them drive a semi tractor-trailer down the freeway.  He is so frustrated.  Even reminding him that I have been using a computer for 20 years . . .and no, I DID NOT just 'know' everything.  I learned it bit by bit.  

I made my own choices for the years of our marriage and followed him right into financial disaster - even though I knew better.  That was MY poor choice.  

In 2007, he inherited 250K.  A huge chunk paid off debt.  We had a fresh start with only the balance of our mortgage.   Now, we have re-mortgaged our house, and have 100K in other debt.    

He really thinks that working harder is fixing it all.  He still refuses to look at the big picture.  I do have empathy for that - It is just I am no longer will to participate.  

The construction business profits from 20 to 40 K per year.  Take 1/3 away from that to pay taxes, and we have 13 to 26 K to live.  Just starting at our mortgage of $1,200 a month - - yep it is a disaster.        I fought tooth and nail to be supportive of him, and run the administrative end of the business.  After all this time, I cannot feel happy nor content about "getting a job to 'FIX' our situation".  I will get a job to support myself, and let him find a way to make his finances work.  It feels mean - but I have tried everything else I can think of to make this better.

Marriage takes 2.  And for me it takes 2 working together, not one in control and they other following along like a sheep to the slaughter.

 

Liz

 

I understand....

I too inherited a chunk of money when my parents died.  I paid off some debts, and bought my business.  I kept all the inheritance in MY name only so that H would have NO access to it.  Totally legal since it is an inheritance, not community property...not earned income.  Not from marital earnings.  

 

H has long refused to "make a budget" because that would expose how much he wastes....particularly on booze, energy drinks, face creams, wrinkle creams, golf tee times, golf cart rentals, and other CONSUMABLE products.  Much of what H buys is consumes....so nothing to show for it.

IOne huge problem is that H spends most of his money on things that you can't see once consumed, so he's delusional about how much he is spending.  Once consumed, it's gone from his mind....doesn't exist....doesn't compute the cost.  He'll say, "look around, what have I bought?"   Well, it's all been eaten, drank or used.   , 

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Time blindness

O.W.W.,

Time blindness is a real part of ADHD.  There are only 2 times - Now and Not-Now.  Thus it seems to me that my spouse does not learn from past mistakes.  And does not care to listen when he asks me to explain.  He justifies everything.  Defensiveness.  It is like talking to a brick wall.

We tried many a budget.  I have a file full of "Budgets That Didn't Work."  They date back to 1982, my first one from our state's  Extension Agency.  

All budgets and financial plans read easy - but they work hard.  They are not magic.  They are guidelines.

 

Liz

 

 

 

Yes!!!

<<<

Time blindness is a real part of ADHD.  There are only 2 times - Now and Not-Now.

>>>>

 

This!!!   I wondered why H's mom would wait till the last minute to buy her plane tix....and pay 3 times as much.   Because to her, there is only NOW ....and .....NOT NOW.    Interesting!   

NotAnIdiot's picture

I am glad that my wife would

I am glad that my wife would not face this problem. She makes 50% more than I do. But she does not particularly like her job - and if we split up I would feel bad because she will have to keep working longer than she wants to. I can "work" until I'm 90 (college professor). It's not like I'm mining coal, lol.

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

What I did

The only way I have found to delete a post is hit edit,  delete all the text in the post and all the text in the subject - them the Admin will delete it. 

 

Liz

I'm sorry for your pain

but it sounds like you're doing the right thing. 

Today my DH was declined for life insurance coverage. He can't work - we've finally accepted that after 25 years of him being in and out (fired) from dozens of jobs. So the only life insurance he could have gotten was from my job. Because he has taken horrible care of himself he has multiple health issues, and can't get coverage. He is just a burden for me at this point. His response to the non-coverage? "I'm just going to move out onto the street, you'll be happier then." This is the response I get from a 47 year old man-child. I'm so tired of having to take care of him. 

I'm headed down the same road you are. I can only hope that it will be better on the other side. 

And hey, we're not silver splitters! I've been married 25 awful years, but I don't have grey hair (knock on wood!!!!!!). :) Hang in there, we are all in this with you and many of us are headed in the same, sad direction - divorce. What alternative is there really? I have zero hope he will ever change, I got past that a very long time ago. 

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

My silver locks of hair

redhead1017 ,

I am 56, with long hair that is over 50% silvery grey. I have been asked more than once where I get my 'low-lights' done. My hair color is natural. It is a not a distasteful yellowish shade of grey.  It is silver and white and grey, and started to appear, strand by strand,  in my 20s.  My son . . who is now 27 . . .  is getting grey hairs.  Family trait!

The atmosphere in which I choose to remain - it IS my choice - does actually take a lot of effort.  A form of brave-hearted, strong, vulnerability.  I had some protective mechanisms in place that are crumbling.  I really was afraid my spouse would harm himself in a manner that was irreversible.  I quelled that fear by telling myself, "He has a daughter who adores him, and i KNOW he would never do that to her."  Then a man who is my age . . . who I went to school with . . .  and is the brother of the woman who married my brother . . . took his own life.  He had a daughter who adored him.  My protective mechanism was shattered into a million tiny painful pieces.  I was fooling myself.  It was my own form of denial.   Or call it non-acceptance.

One thing I really know for sure, what I do is up to me.  100% up to Liz.  No one knows what my daily living is like.  No one knows how my heart aches.  No one knows how firm my protective wall is, nor how many layers it contains.  No one but me.  I am not asking anyone.  Not a pastor.  Not a preacher.  Not my older sister.  Not my younger sister.  Not my Mom.  Not my daughter.  Not my Aunt. Not my friends.  Not a church counselor.  Not a marriage counselor.  It is not 'my duty' to be the wife of a happy husband at the cost of myself.  I WANT to be the wife of a happy husband.  I want to honor and love and support.  The happy part is up to him.

This gal knows herself.  And I know better than anyone on this earth how much of me I gave away and gave up and changed and evolved - because someone told me that I was doing it all wrong.  I did not embrace my introversion - I thought it was a defect.  I did not embrace my tenderness - I thought it was a weakness.  I did not embrace my knowledge - I thought others knew better than I did.  I did not embrace my choice to see the good in everything - I saw it as being blind to life.  I did not believe that some things were mine - solely mine - and I did not have to give up my choices to keep someone liking me.  But, I did all those things. I wore myself out.  I depleted Liz and became, , , , , , well NOT Liz.   

Conflict resolution has been elusive.  I learned to resolve conflict by resolving that I was wrong, someone else was right, and "Liz, you better smart up or you will have no friends."  Oh yeah.  I had friends.  Ha.  I had people who used me.  And chewed me up.  I had the facade of a happy spouse.  I ran out of steam and energy to try to keep him that way.  Took me a long time to learn that was not my job. 

This post is an answer to a question  my spouse recently asked me:  would I tell him where we are - through an e-mail or this forum or just talking. I fear that really means "Hey Liz,  give me a report card."  I choose not to do it.  It backfires.   

What I do know: happiness is not the most important thing. I want to feel content.  I want to feel honored.   

I have been hanging in there and trying to be there for my spouse. I cannot "be" what makes my spouse happy nor content.  

If you  always do, what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.  I know giving up myself and my choices and my wants will give my spouse the feeling of happiness.  But it will not be real.  And it hurts too much. 

I have changed my attitude.  I have changed my behavior.  Yet, yet, yet, contentment in marriage is elusive.  

The grass is greenest where you water it.  I keep telling myself that. . . . . . .

"You can change your marriage by changing yourself. Veteran couples have learned that trying to change their spouse is like trying to push a rope — almost impossible. Often, the only person we can change in our marriage is ourselves."  The result to this, for me, for Liz, is not a very good thing for my marriage.  The temptation to revert to old behaviors is strong. . . . . . . .yet I will not do it.  I hang tough.

"Real love is based on a couple's vows of commitment: "For better or for worse" — when it feels good and when it doesn't."  Somehow, I do not think this "when it doesn't" was meant to be for years on end.   What I hold tight to in recent months is :  We do not call each other names.  We do not take drugs or get drunk.  We do not have other relationships.  We do not have secret gambling problems.  There is no physical abuse of any shape or form.  There is no character assassination.  Have I shared my distress?  Yes.  Yes I have.  Have I assassinated his character?  I believe I have not. Do I have concern for him?  Yes, yes I do.     

"Successful couples have learned to resist holding grudges and bringing up the past."  We are both imperfect.  Yet, there are some things I chose to do, that I cannot forgive myself for choosing to do.  Things that were very dear to me and I sacrificed in the name of love.  I would not do it again.  They are foolish choices.  Accckkk.    

"A crisis doesn't mean the marriage is over."  I think we have been in a marriage crisis since our 25th year of marriage - in 2009.  We had some rocky times previous to that - now I choose to no longer just pretend things are OK.  I can forgive.  

The last time I allowed myself to open up my heart - and make the choice to be vulnerable  - was in the fall of 2014.  I was a disaster.  FOR ME.  That was painful  And the lesson was hurtful. I made that choice out of optimism.  I did not have concrete support.  I was just wild eyed and hopeful.  Even trying to talk about it gets the atmosphere very awkward.  And actions get defended.  

I am going to college to be a Pre-K teacher.  A teacher.  A TEACHER.  I have lived my whole life with a man who has not one good thing to say about that profession.  Sigh.

Foolish, I am not.   

Sincerely,

Liz

 

 

""A crisis doesn't mean the

""A crisis doesn't mean the marriage is over.""

 

If only my husband believe that...  its so funny, its one of the things he complained about so much and one thing he said he didnt like (from previous relationships etc) - that he didnt want either of us to panic and run any time we had a crisis.  And yet - that is his MO.  Any time something comes up that NORMAL people deal with, work through - compromise, apologize, become better, move forward with new knowledge, whatever - HE..... HIM.... MY HUSBAND is the one to cut and run.  I suspect all that complaining and all that telling me he didnt want to deal with stuff like that was projection of his own actions from previous relationships.  Kinda like when he told me once he didnt like to make alot of stops on road trips for bathroom breaks, so I had better "learn to hold it".  Turns out  - he is the one who needed the breaks WAY more than I ever did.  Same with this.  he is the runner and thinking that just because we have an issue or crisis  - that means that the marriage wont work blah blah blah.

 

SO. SICK. OF. IT.

 

SO RELIEVED its almost over.

 

I am so tired of giving.... never ever getting anything but lies, bullshit, and his "its all about me" attitude.   I am looking forward to a life with out living on those eggshells, thinking that if I do ANYTHING AT ALL to tip the balance, or if I dont have a smile on my face... OH NOOO he will LEAAAAVE because its ALL SOOOO HARD.....

 

LOL... wow... I have to say - I am in a very very different place than I was even a month ago. 

Thank You Liz

Thanks for answering my question.
     Once I have unscrambled, sorted, and slowed down my thoughts, I would like to reply in depth to your post.
      I ask for your patience.

     With hope.   Tom

       

 

Finally, my reply

Liz

May I premise my remarks with a plea for tolerance should I voice my anxiety, shame & fear of failure, which most certainly will look exactly like anger ?  
       OK-I want to begin with my paradigm around my asking the question “where are we at?” I would categorize the last several months for our relationship as being low-key status quo. No huge fights, your enjoyment of school & working the fair… I have been waiting to ask you that for quite a while and did not until there was a lull in your busy-ness. That is why I waited till the Fair was over and befor school. Your initial response of “I don’t know”, which I respected and did not push against, left me hanging in purgatory. ( a place where I pay for my ADHD sins, in perpetual anguish). I did not know, for the week that followed, if I asked it wrong, or if I should interpret that as ‘things are awful, getting worse, or what. So again Thank You for including your answer in your reply to redhead1017. 
      Please accept my validation to your trepidation to engage in this conversation due to my past aggravated lashings, and you're needing time to ‘percolate’ before answering,  and please also know that on my end, not a word otherwise, for a week, of what was to me a potentially life altering ‘no’, was painful.

      Sure a portion of my inquiry is ‘the report card’,
“Until…………………………………….”
1.  he is reliable in the relationship

2.  he is more than 90% on time,

3.  able to complete what he says,

4.  able to remember what he should be doing,

5.  able to communicate with you when he isn't going to do something before it becomes a crisis,

6.  has the anger in check 
again, my paradigm. The above things, to most folks, probably would be a piece of cake. In my view, to achieve an A+ on this is daunting, if not like climbing the Bright Angel Trail, out to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, with a deformed leg.  I believe I have made significant progress with most of them, at the very least worked at a better me. In reality, What I think has little to do with the ‘Grade given’, and the consequences of it.
   Another analogy: this week I,(with my son & nephew) have labored intensely in this August heat to repair a ‘failed’ septic system. Literally moving Tons and Tons of dirt and stone by hand. We have all gotten poison ivy rashes, drowned in sweat, Tuesday I was getting queasy from heat exposure, not to mention the biology factor. Pressing on to completion, performing the very best we could do.     Imagine my dismay, if after all that effort, me going in the house and flushing the toilet and having it back up on the floor just like it did before we came to remedy the unpleasantness? Unhappy- likely, defeated- maybe, angry- for sure.      Our remedy to the initial failure couldn’t have been more successful. The improvements we made also safeguard against this failure in the future. The customer expressed his satisfaction with monetary payment and Words of recognition to our integrity, perseverance and talent. I suppose that right there explains much of the -ADHD / Entrepreneur / Need for approval- dynamic. It comes ‘Naturally’ to me to be a hero to my customers. I was engineered  in my mother's womb to solve problems. ( Yes I know, they don’t have to ‘live’ with me. ) Alas, the greatest problems, that elude my wizardry, are the ones born of this (‘gift’).
     Speaking of birth, my heart weeps bitterly for the introspective anguish I see in our son’s countenance with the distancing of the love of his life. I see his management of his disorganization, and his ‘focus’, to be well below his usual astonishingly motivated and successful  level, and I pray he will pick himself up to come thru this and gain strength in his abilities to ‘tame the giant’ , and not succumb to self-doubting-scrutiny and shame. Liz you mentioned passing down the genetics of early grey hair, his ADD, (in my opinion the most significant factor in her leaving),  ~compliments of his daddy~.  All of the ‘stuck’ non-ADD wives out there can give a resounding hurray for ‘she has been saved from a life of misery’... And with our Daughter, I give witness to the resounding correlation to her failed, short lived marriage and the att ag; ‘a girl often marries her father’.  I told her she should have married someone-else's ‘father’.

      Intertwined with, and, as I understand it, exponentially Dependant to, the ‘final grade’ of the report-card, there is the bottom line of what has been referred to as the all encompassing ‘Barometer’.                                                                                                                          -  In the past 6 years of my marriage to you, which one is closest ?
A There is a definite possibility we will someday return to intimate sexual relations
B No, Sex WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN
C Tom has not demonstrated any worthiness to be deserving of anything sexual
D Tom has not demonstrated enough to be deserving of anything sexual
E “In your dreams Plumber-boy”
F Liz’s woundedness is greater than her ability to forgive Tom
G Liz fears that the moment Tom gets sex he will think everything is fixed and no longer work at the difficult aspects of compromise or anything in the relationship or his lifelong ADHD management
H Tom needs to be the one to initiate intimacy 
I  Liz has lost her ‘Desire’ for Tom
J Once Liz achieves her degree, she’s-outa-here
K If not included in any of the above-   Please use your own words.
Over the past 6 years I have speculated many possible answers. Please tell me straight-up. I want to know, I need to know, as the father to our children I have the right to know. Win Lose or Draw, life will go on.
     Indeed I can read the third component of why I asked. How is Elizabeth in this marriage as it endures?
      
 One response chiseled out,  a dozen to go.       The fact that assembling an attempt to legibly deliver what's inside my heart & head, taxes my stamina and takes 50x longer than is common,   has to speak something of my intent in this Union. If I didn’t care or was just offering lip service - I would have long ago let a divorce lawyer do my talking.

Man Liz, you certainly are gifted with corralling your thoughts here. What might of taken you an hour to journal,  will take me a week to unpack.

Next,    Rusty’s Answer:
      Your anxious perception is not unfounded. Before I started taking Wellbutrin, my depression and anxiety were becoming heavier and heavier with every argument and failed attempt to communicate clearly. My loneliness was fast approaching critical-mass. I reached out to a previous councilor and they didn’t get my E-mail. I shared some of my suffering with two separate male peers, got what I expected - a ‘YoukonCornelius’= ‘Nothin’.  I was abandoned.(like Little Jumping Joan). I know now that that feeling wasn’t legitimately founded, but at that Juncture it was real in my brokenness and despair. No one to blame but myself. I ultimately decided God didn’t deliver me from Sarcoma Cancer so I could go ~ non-naturally.

Feeling Honored;
     Even the idea that Tom conducts himself in a manner that ‘dishonors’ his wife peaks my angered rebuke of this unjust accusation. Sure I am quite defensive on this one. I know guys who have dishonored their wives, I read about some on this forum. I am not one of them. I propose that the honor that is not ‘felt’ is crowded out by other discontent. 

       An ongoing theme I read is in regard to Tom’s  happiness. I do not blame you, Liz for the quantity of, or my difficulty to experience and/or express this emotion. I acknowledge and am saddened by the tumult you have endured in sacrificing all you have, with the unfulfilled hope of my happiness. I was unhappy before I met you. I can remember being unhappy as far back as in kindergarten. I’m glad you’ve let yourself off the hook.
      Why is Tom seemingly so unhappy so often?
Way back:     I have to say primarily I knew I was different, there was a great big empty space inside me with a label that said ‘Self-Esteem goes Here, the above empty space fostered Zero Sports apptitudes or anything that involved other people, the only Buddy I had thru high school grew up to be a drug-dealer with a side business of breeding & training Pit-Bull fighting dogs,my shyness was debilitating,I couldn't even talk to a girl...
More Recently:      I thought life would be less difficult as I got older---turned out I have it backwards, I thought having deciding at a young age to be ‘Good’, that it would guaranteed results like contentment and peace---nope, I thought that being honest, hard working, not smoking, not stealing,  never getting drunk or high, a church-goer, a youth-ministry leader, a Sunday School teacher,being tender-hearted and compassionate, being Devoted, a virgin on my wedding day, leaving my Father and Mother to Cleave to my helpmate, (even though that meant alienation from my parents, sister, and 5 brothers), being faithful in my monogamy, making my children a top priority, conducting my work with the highest integrity, being generous with my time and professional services… All these sacrifices most certainly qualified me to a quiet happy existence.--- “Sorry Charlie”. I adopted the virtues of empathy and compassion for ‘The Least of These’ that crossed my path, ---YIKES a couple of them were very scary and made my family uncomfortable. I had embraced the Golden Rule since my earliest consciousness, 
     Did I expect that after being steeped in Church from the time I was In-Vitro to adulthood --- that my family would be deceived and emotionally brutalized by Church Leadership, and ‘ thrown-under-the-Church-Bus by fellow parishioners?
     In my view I have invested heavily in the things of virtue throughout my life.  Do I feel as though ‘ I got what I paid for ?, Did I ‘Plan’ to have my marriage “in Crisis”, or be in a weak financial state at 59 ? --- ‘But-of-course’ everybody knows ADD’ers aren't Planner's, their Feeler’s.  It ‘Felt’ like it was the right way to exist on this planet. No one to blame, but me.
     I have done the best I have been able with with what I possessed at the time. 
     I have depleted my reserves of Gentle Giant-ness.
     I have grown weary in my push to prove wrong the att age ‘ Nice guys finish Last’.
     
Looking back, ADHD with a late Diagnosis has left its calling card on my doorstep. Caoss
             Happy ~ I am not. 
-All the above criteria factor into why  attending family functions is so difficult for me.          -I am not a good pretender
-I am not so naive to think they don’t have a notion of how fractured our marriage is
-Unlike my family’s scrutiny of you, your family has embraced me, it is no fun holding back tears, hoping they won’t ask me what's wrong, it would break Mom & Dad's hearts
-being in that much discomfort peaks my Anxiety / Anger.

   Your “This gal knows herself….” and “Conflict resolution….” paragraphs are difficult for me to unpack. I am unable to make a definite distinction between Pre - Me / and / With - Me  Difficulties and Objectionable Behaviors. In my read All the heat is deposited on DH. 
As with my above mentioned Unhappiness, a heapin-helpin of the luggage listed there, would have been packed Pre-Tom.
You are gifted with ‘sorting & organizing’
     Why doesn't anyone else get named and put on the carpet?
You have answered similar questions with “I am not married to them” to that I would say ‘Precisely’    I am not insinuating that I should not be called out on hurtful things I say or do, I am saying rebuke me for only my stuff, take the rest back to whence it came
       This brings me to a confounding broken record quandary in the deepest recesses of my consciousness. Why is Liz so deeply unhappy with me again? Over and over I go through the specifics. Tom can be; Angry, late, undependable, emotionally unavailable, stubborn, forgetful, a low income provider,cluttered,un-romantic…
But Wait--there's more, much much more. So much more. While I am aware of my human imperfection, my view from the inside looking out, sees, amidst the ongoing struggle, significant sacrifice, significant effort, and significant personal story change, with minimal relational results, even additional lost ground.
     Tut-Tut~ I am not permitted to allow myself to Compare my Deficits, or my actions or my improvements to anything or any of the Broad-Spectrum of other ADHD husbands here.(here by proxy anyway) Too bad there’s not a Bell-Curve for ADHD Accademia! At least I could graduate with a C.

Crisis;
     Unfortunately for me, I view that descriptive word to carry meaning further back in time, than since our 25th year. My intense feelings of anxiety began the day my Mom told me she didn’t want me to marry you. That rates as the most tumultuous ‘disobedience’ of my being her son. Mind you I intentionally and simultaneously set my foot down firmly in my choice of Loving You more than her directives. And resolved to take the, (who knew they would be Lifelong),consequences.
     Your 10 year recovery from eating disorders took its toll on both of us. From the intense sessions with Dr. Ganchori on down thru all the other Therapists, to the telltale evidence in your breath, (I know you were extremely diligent to try and keep your breath fresh, very often I could tell). Your episodes of mood-swing were intense thru the trial and error of meds calibrations. When you fainted in my arms at the Mespo parade, I thought you died like Karen Carpenter, from a heart attack. You were so thin. Having your menstrual cycle stop was so frightening. I could not help you only watch you and pray.
     Ah yes my foolishness to insist on Natural Family Planning. I am sorry on so many levels for that misguided choice. It  surely DID NOT bring us into closer Marital unity.
     Like you said, my (undiagnosed) ADHD was there the whole time contributing to our  Union in Crisis.
      
     Finally, your comment regards to my attitude to the teaching profession. Yes, I, regrettably, have had little good to say about it. I publicly offer an apology for every cutting remark I have made.  Liz, I do not view your lifelong aspiration to be an educator as anything other than wonderful. I am sorry for the uneasiness vocalizing my frustration thru the years has caused you.

Putting all this down has wiped me out,
For now,
Tom
     
       

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Initial Thoughts

Tom,

You have poured out your heart, and I am thankful.  There is so much in what you have written, I first want to say I am deeply touched that you shared so much openly.  I think it gives me - and maybe others here in this forum - a bigger, clearer picture of Tom.  

I am walking carefully through what you have written, in an effort to sort out what is a dynamic that can be addressed.

How do we discern what is expecting some "to change" versus what are behaviors that need to be addressed?  I do not have that answer.  Life has dealt both of us - before we met- during our courtship - and up to this very day - some tough things to handle.  They have had a big effect on you and me and us.  

My own thoughts on our children.  We raised them to be individuals.  We raised them to be guided by their own conscience. .  We raised them - to one day be able to send them out in the world, equipped with life skills necessary to be permitted to make their own way, deal with their own mistakes, pick themselves up, and go on with a new plan.  

It is indeed tough to watch our children deal with broken hearts.  They WILL and CAN do it.  We cannot protect them from life.  There is NO GUARANTEE about what tomorrow will bring.  Our daughter, gosh, she is dealing with things that are hard.  And she is dealing with them.  I am proud of HOW she is doing it - by keeping on keeping on - not stopping, going THROUGH.  

Our son, he is you and me, and he is mostly HIMSELF.  We have no idea what happened with his relationship.  I cannot put my thoughts nor project my own life stumbles upon him.  He is free to love, to wait, to make his very own choices.  I surely don't like to see him struggle.  But I choose to be his cheerleader, encourager, and allow him to deal with his relationships at his own pace.  

Life is not a machine.  It is not mechanical.  We have ups and downs.  We will never reach perfection.  Every day will be filled with hiccups and glitches and disappointments.  We deal with them, and move on. . . . . . . . . . 

I am pulling bits and pieces from what you shared.  Tis true.  I plan NOT to lose steam and will continue to go on addressing many things from your post.  

We spent a whole weekend in January of 2015 working on addressing the dynamic of hearing and understanding our feelings.  I purposely choose - yes, make the deliberate choice -  out off all that was written here, why jump on this?  It is a core issue.  And profoundly plays into the disconnect I feel.  So, I am jumping in head first.

Feeling Honored;
     Even the idea that Tom conducts himself in a manner that ‘dishonors’ his wife peaks my angered rebuke of this unjust accusation. Sure I am quite defensive on this one. I know guys who have dishonored their wives, I read about some on this forum. I am not one of them. I propose that the honor that is not ‘felt’ is crowded out by other discontent. 

And yes, indeed I purposely chose to pull out a very important dynamic in your post.  This is HUGE for me.    

Honor - It is a much deeper sense of the word.  That specific scenario in your post - that is an example of what I call crazi-making.  You are sharing why you are angered at my feelings.     Why?  There are miles between "Liz does not feel honored" versus "Tom dishonors Liz."  

With sincerity,

Liz

 

'Crazi-Making' 101

Liz,
     So glad to be having this conversation.
Good. A few things at a time is way more doable for me. Multi-Tasking Emotions, Feelings, Time Periods, Histories, and heartache is way outside my cognitive capability. 
     I can grasp your mindset/feelings with regard to our adult children. I will try another way to clarify mine.    This ,as you know, is an ADHD Focused Website. Those who come here are not ‘Living the Life’ (brimming with contentment, Joy and gleeful anticipation of what the future might hold for their ADHD Impacted  Relationship). I am the ADHD Denominator  in all that affects you our daughter and to the greatest extent our son. (DNA)  I have come to believe my intuition in the things I can empathize with.  I would not wish this ‘gift’ on my enemies.    My families hardships directly tied to My neurology carry weight. Lots.

     I will try to paint a picture of how my wiring deciphers the lack of Honor from me that you have expressed.
                         “Liz does not feel Honored by Tom”
      OK,  in a post recently you said you hold on to: we don’t call each other names or assassinate each other's character”, the reason that statement is true for me is, because -  I honor my wife.    “We are not seeing other people” , for me is because - I honor my wife.     I attended and poured myself into participation of ‘Retroville’  to demonstrate how much - I honor my wife, (ask any man if they would willingly go on a weekend retreat with their spouse to work on really hard deeply emotional stuff and wright dozens of love letters expressing how the feel ).  the first time I posted here on the Forum and was rebutted by a member to ‘let my wife have it with a rant, I declined and indicated in my answer that - I honor my wife.
    For me, being a cardholder in the Male Gender, having  for decades gone against the code of ‘Men don’t do ‘touchy-feely’. I have been referred to as effeminate, P-whipped and other less-than-a-man slang, hearing  that you don’t feel Honored by me conotates the word   Dis-honor.  Tending to dilute and even erase my relationship-long heartfelt efforts.
    
   For me, it is not getting mad at your feelings, rather, getting mad because I am being told that decades and decades of my pouring out what's inside of me ; well it doesn’t count.
  
 Sincerely   Tom

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

On go the brakesof my willingness

I have hit a wall. I am trying to express how I feel, how I hurt inside, why I am pulling away from you....and, alas, it is not working. This is an emotional rollercoaster that had my stomach churning, and my body tossing and turning. I need to stop...as I am doing what I always do and it is not working.  ........

 

Hey Melissa

W-T-F did I do wrong to kill this dialogue ???

Plan B

Liz, 
I prefer, for now, to stick with forming words to articulate my thoughts and feelings, here on a screen. As I indicated in our verbal conversation, earlier today, having this dialogue in written form gives documented witness to the back and forth. Better for me to read and re-read in hopes of someday ‘getting it’ on the core-disconnect-repeaters.
    How about this ?   Liz, I am not able to understand WHY you don’t feel Honored by me. Can you break it down to a specific incident, conversation, or dynamic?
   
   I will wait till you feel better.
Tom

 

Walls and Honor

Tom,

Don't feel bad here. I was as lost as you....in what I just read? To both you and Liz....I was getting a lot out of your conversation....right up to the point where you were attempting to show Liz how you honor her. The thing is.....I really didn't know exactly what she meant either and I had to look up....exactly what "Honoring" your wife is suppose to look like? Specifically? I know that your faith and the Church are a big part of how you see things....but I like you.....was raised in such a way...that those things you are told to believe....are so full of contradictions and different interpretations......so wonder no one really knows how another person "thinks"....this is all suppose to look like? For example....the word "Honor" has never be mentioned of brought up by my wife as a complaint of hers...or said in those words to me before. It's why that took me a little off guard myself...and really didn't know exactly what she meant ....as "she see's it"....most importantly?

As I heard her say a number of things (a whole lot of things )....I too....was trying to pin point exactly.....why she feels the way she does? This is not me taking sides here either. I'm just reading along...and trying to follow the two of you. And what I was getting mostly....was a rather convoluted idea of exactly what the problem is? I think right there...should tell you something? What I just witnessed....was a "wall"...and you just ran smack into it....and are not understanding why?

The easy part to understand? Finances and money. As she said.....it's not about working harder....if you don't have any money at the end of the year? Even how she said this....made me pause for a moment and go back and read it again. As she said....your business....profits 20k to 40k per anum.....take away taxes, and add in $1200 for the mortgage and what have you got? No new garage that's what. That's kind of a no brainier here?

I can hear the immortal words of own father....commenting on this one and ringing in my ears. As he would say this differently than the way Liz did here " At best....your "Profit" is: income...minus taxes.....minus expenses....minus food.....minus clothes.....minus gas.....minus utilities.....minus ( any luxuries you can afford which you can't because you have no money )....minus medical expenses and insurance......minus car and house expenses and repairs....minus all things that fall under the misc. category....and what have you got left? In the 20k year.....you're in debt. But you worked your ass off to get that way? In the best year....you're still in debt or just barely making ends meet. Your "Profit" is approximately "0" or -"0". You can't afford to buy ANYTHING!!!! And you're talking about a new garage? ARE YOU NUTS!!!!"

That would be my Dad talking....if he were still here talking to you and I can really disagree with him....if he were here saying this too you. Except the Nuts part. I don't think you're nuts. What I do think...and believe very much....is like me.....you try very hard to do the right thing...but put your focus and energies....directed in the wrong ways and you don't always do "the Math." I'm no different in my own right...but I have learned the hard way myself....what happens when you do that and part of what Liz is saying to you from just what I heard her say....is the part you are not understanding....the same as I was...until I looked up the concept of "Honor" coming from a least one source that popped up when I googled it.

Before I say anything more along these lines to you....I want to share something from the perspective of someone who has been married before and have been in a number of different relationships in my lifetime ...that last a more than just one or two years. You might even say...I was a serial "monogamist" since...while I was with any of these women (including the ones I was married to ) I was a faithful partner....didn't cheat....did most of the things you mentioned you've done yourself...and had that same thinking, that if I just do these things and not do anything horribly wrong or totally egregious.....then everything "should be" fine....right? Wrong-O. Everything....is not fine....just doing the things you've mentioned.....only. There is more too it than that....and that "touchy feely" thing that "men" are not suppose to do or "be like"? Forget it about it. Who ever came up with that one....is no longer alive any more. If you get my drift? Emphasis on......who ever? Who was that...I might add? Who knows...that the answer? Monkey see...monkey do?

But on behalf of all of us men who have ADHD...and from my own experience with this....every single woman...that I have EVER been with....has had a different set of criteria...and a different set of things that they didn't like and only a few things that they shared in common was far as which...ADHD symptoms...they didn't like. Truly. Where one didn't mind one symptom at all...and didn't even bring it up as a problem....the another one could care less about that one...and had a bone to pick about a different one. When it comes to these things and which one is the most...or least important? You might as well call the ADHD symptoms....the "symptom de jour" when it comes to which ones....which person....had a problem with...or doesn't have a problem with. It depends on the person...and "what's most important to them."

So going back go what Liz was saying...and what's most important to her? Honor. Okay.....there's your clue...and that's when she dropped off the cliff on you...because you are not understanding what that means to her. I'll give you one example...from just what she said in this thread. As she put it.....she "despises" the word Fuck. Now....if I were with Liz....we would probably come to some conflicts with that...since I have some definite opinions on "words" being censored (strongly opposed to censorship of any kind ). But here's the deal.....she doesn't like it...and soooo......what are you going to do to honor her in this? If it were me...and even with my strong opinions to the contrary.....what is more important than my personal feelings on the F word....would be to honor and respect her personal feelings as they are so strongly opposed to the F word and at the end of the day......who gives a Fuck really (lol sorry...facetiousness again )....I can not use that word around Liz....since honoring her in this way...is more important than my need to say that one word around her. And I wouldn't....out of the same courtesy that I would want in return. I also have to say...that this is not one of my wife's complaints with me. I don't curse and swear non stop any more than I do here with her and this is not a problem for my wife. But it is for Liz...and that's what's more important in respect to honoring her.

The problem as I have come to find for myself. Is everyone is different. And everyone...is going to have a different thing to pick....that they don't like and they're not going to be the same from one person to the next. Right off the top of my head.....here's a list of things that I can think of that are common complaints here on this forum: leaving cupboard door open. making messes. doing poorly with finances, spending too much time wasted on things like video games, drugs, alchohol, smoking, staying up all night and not sleeping together, can't hold down a job, don't engage of spend any time with them, anger outburst, forgetting things, can't fix things or do things right around the house, wait until the last minute to do things and creating a crisis, can't keep things organized, won't help with chores and only makes more work than helps, not very thoughtful in considering how what we do effects others (them), can't stay with or finish projects and have multiple projects going at the same time that never get done, can't stay on top of current issues and problems and doesn't address them on time or at all in certain cases, can't have meaningful conversations, ignore them or doesn't pay any attention to them, self absorbed and into what ever is interesting in lue of doing things that are interesting to spouses, spends a disproportionate amount of time doing things that are not in service of the relationship or your spouse.......

and the list goes on and on. All of these things...are related to having ADHD in one form or another. But when it comes time....when which ever any of these things gets brought up or mentioned....depending on the "symptom de jour" and which ones are "most important" to the person they are with....and depending on which ones aren't so important compared to the others....the only thing that matters...is what is important to the person you are with. What ever "ones" that aren't important or important to you....is completely irrelevant including....what is not important...or important....to someones eles's wife aside from the one your are married too?

Is this making a mole hill out of a mountain depending on which symptom gets picked on the most? Wrong way to look at it my friend. What is most important to Liz...is what is most important to Liz. If you want her to make what is most important to you and respect and honor your wishes in these areas.....you need to do the same for her...and not question or reason your way out of...not making that "the most important thing" you should be focusing on.

What I do share with you in common...including what NotanIdiot was saying as well. If the expectation and assumptions to go along with them....is that we should automatically "know" exactly which thing to be focused or working on and we should somehow just "know" that...without having this spelled out and explained as far as the ADHD symptoms themselves...this puts on between a rock and a hard place since (at least for me) I can only effectively work on one or two symptoms at a time and really get them under my belt. In the mean time...the others will just have to take a second seat...which means they still will be happening to a certain degree...because if we could juggle those balls all at once in the first place...we wouldn't be here now would we? Trying to correct....all of them at the same times means...doing a really bad job at all of them.....or doing a really good job at working on one at a time...and knocking them down...one by one and getting them all under our belts and doing a good job at all of them....eventually. Now...is not possible. Over time...and approaching what is possible instead of what is not possible....even though that might be the expectation means...either a person is suited to deal and cope with this in the mean time...as long as things are consistently improving along with the effort that is being put in to do it. If the expectation is that these things will all just go away and never reappear of have to be dealt with again.....that is an impossible request to ask and is unreasonable as far as what can literally be done in the amount of time it takes to retrain yourself.

Time...and each individuals expectations and what they can handle...will vary greatly from one person to the next when it comes to these things. I honestly believe...there are those out there....who are just not suited or have the ability to manage or deal with the problems associated with being in a relationship with someone with ADHD. I think some...do much better than others...and some that do really well....in comparison to some who literally cannot handle it
AT ALL give the exact same criteria and circumstance. This goes right along with what I experienced myself and the .symptom "de jour" phenomenon. Every one is different...and everyone's capacities of deal with or handle these things either positively or negative....will depending on which symptoms are the most problematic for them...and which symptoms are the easiest or hardest for each person with ADHD to correct or not. In my case...some of the complaints lodged here on the forum...are not even at issue with me at all. And in my particular situation...the worst area...is the one my wife has the least amount of ability to deal with and handle. Of all the ones that she is most affected by....it had to be the one that I am poorest with and the one that has been the most difficult for me to change or do something about yet....other ones that are of no consequence to her....were the easiest for me to correct years ago and aren't even on the radar anymore? As these things go....if you are only seeing what's wrong or what you don't like....it's easy to forget about all the things you do like and not see "what is right" instead of only seeing "what is wrong."

And one of those biggies Tom....and one that I picked early on just work on that one for a good long time and not try and do anything else while I was really working on this one to finally stop doing years ago now? Being defensive...and making everything little mistake or failure....like it was the end of the world. That right there...is not necessarily...an ADHD symptoms and is more of a by product of it. For that reason alone....it is something you can definitely change and stop doing if you put your mind to it. It's part of honoring Liz as she says this is very important to her. I think if you made a list...of things that honor Liz (a short list to start) and just pick one and work on that one long enough to get it under your belt....I think you might be hitting the bullseye with her since this is what she is saying is most important to her.

What is most important to you...is irrelevant to this concept of honoring her in fact....by doing those things....it might not mean much of anything to you at all and you may get nothing directly from doing them yourself? Kind of like me and the word Fuck. What's more important here? My need to say it....or my need to honor Liz...if I was with her instead of you?

I took this passage from the web sight I google when I looked up honor to see exactly what that meant and as far as a list of things included in it....I really like this one most of all. I like it because it spoke to me personally...which is more akin to loyalty as I see it....but thinking as far as Liz is concerned....loyalty and or honor....might be pretty close to the same thing as far as what loyalty means to me? Sounds the same frankly? And if that's the case....the I'm with Liz there too. I'm a stand up guy...and this is pretty much saying the same thing. It is what is most important to me...just so you know?

4. Stand.

It’s not that she can’t defend herself. She can. But it’s harder—and lonelier—to do it alone. So be ready to take her side, to stand by her side and defend her.

Chances are, one of the reasons she married you was that she knew you would fight for her, and stand with her, through life’s biggest battles. Somewhere in your vows, that was present. That whole “knight in shining armor” thing? It’s real! She needs a version of that, just as you need her to be strong for you and supportive in other ways. She needs a soldier who will fight for her, honor her, and stand next to her when she’s down for the count. Whether in the home or the workplace outside of the home, society pulls no punches in degrading and lowering the value of women. Be her buffer, her source of strength, her champion. And she’ll be yours.

5. Love.
True love is built on investment, not affection. Affection is a dividend.

I’m not talking about excessive public displays of affection, like you see between love-struck couples in a mall or a park. None of us really wants to see that. What I’m talking about is actions that demonstrate the love you have for her. Hold her hand when you walk together. Make sure your children see you hug and kiss her all the time. Make sure they know that she is forever your bride and forever your love. True love is built on investment, not affection. Affection is a dividend.

How you treat your partner will affect how your children love their future spouses. Your kids will seek out partners based on what they see in you (Yikes, pressure’s on!) and follow the dynamics and patterns that you model and exemplify in your own relationship. If honor forms the core of your marriage, it will form the core of theirs, too.

♦◊♦

So, it is a big question: “Will you honor her?” Sometimes, life gets in the way and we lose sight. Don’t beat yourself up if that’s you. Pick yourself up, fail forward, and start over. That’s what life is all about—do overs! If you need a road map, I’ve personally found the 5 ways I just shared to be a great starting point. They’ve helped me tremendously. And they can help you, too.

That doesn't mean rescuing...as in that Knight in Shining Armor either. Rescuing...is not the same thing is standing and fighting and having someones back when they need it and the chips are down. That's what I'm talking about...when comparing this to loyalty. In my mind they are synonymous pretty much....once I looked it up to see exactly what that meant?

J

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Individual's likes and dislikes

Easy.  If someone does not like the "F" word, and you care about your relationship with them, then don't use the "F" word in your conversations.  

If you don't want anyone telling you what to do, by all means, use the "F" word.  However, do not surprised that conversations with that person drop-off in a hurry.  Choices.  

What honor means to me, may not 100% encapsulate what it means to someone else.  If the way a word was used causes an injury, why not just say, "How is that affecting you?" "or "I am not understanding how that is affecting you?"  It would get a lot further in a civil conversation that insisting you were doing nothing wrong, and were in fact doing exactly that - honoring.  

I think it is more about the semantics of things.  Shall we argue about the use of a word, or shall we try to dig deeper and get to the meat of the issue?  

I had told this story a while ago.  When we first got our property, we wanted a garden.  I wanted a small garden.  My spouse wanted a small garden.  Image both our surprise when we discovered Liz meant s-m-a-l-l, like 10 foot by 10 foot.  Tom meant small, like about one acre, instead of two.  So, in essence, my small was his teeny weeny.  

What did we learn?  To keep discussing until we are on the same page.  

I do get frustrated when conversation get hung up one a word.  It FEELS to me that my concern gets lost in my spouses desire to explain my misuse of the word, or injust feeling that I am attacking him. . . . . and then his interpretation gets to be more important than my feeling. And Liz gets lost in the shuffle.  

Not pleasant at all.

Something from our past that haunts me - my use of any word.  This in an ongoing theme,  If I would say, "My car...." I would be corrected to say "Our car....."  And it was fine.  for a while.  Then, other uses of words just piled higher and higher.  

So, it is my car and it is our car, and it is his car.

And in all that, in the end. . . . yep, Liz does not like taking the Lord's name in vain, not the use of the "F" word.  My choice.  My personal space.  

Liz 

 

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

So. . . . . going forward. . . . .

Tom,

I am very clear on my eating disorders.  There was no quick fix.  They were a manifestation of my own low self-esteem and my inability to tell people how I felt.  I was a people pleaser.  I smiled, absorbed all the crap anyone dished out - never ever got mad at ANYONE - and then took it out on myself.  Oh my gosh, I was so intensely afraid that if I didn't behave correctly, no one would like me.  And that in itself was the very solution to my eating disorders.  I had to learn that not everyone would like me.  It was brutal.   I succeeded! 

Of, course, I didn't know all that.  Now I do.  Eating disorders are a part of my past.  Fully dealt with and resolved - for easily 20 years.  

It was my 'addiction' if you will.  Was.  Part of my past.  I learned a lot in all 15 years I was in counseling.  15 to 20 years AGO - - - - - -IN THE PAST.    

Just as all the issues you and I have are not ADHD - all the issues we struggled with were not bulimia and anorexia.

PMDD - wildly intense PMS - yes, mood swings.  I KNEW it.  I owned it.  I asked people to steer clear during those specific days of the month.  I had those days clearly spelled out on our family calendar - so everyone - you, our son and our daughter -  knew it was Mom.  Mom had an issue.  Steer clear, so you don't get trampled unjustly.  I worked on that , too.  Finally got medication to take from the 14th day of my cycle until the new one started - which gave ME freedom from the symptoms, and also my family freedom from the crabby lady - - or, yes, hahahaha the Doberman with lipstick.   What wI hope was learned - Don't Poke the Bear.  

Bad breath is part and parcel to everyone who walks the earth.  Morning breath, coffee breath, horrible breath from bad teeth, smoking breath. . . . . . bad breath was not just a bulimia issue.  It never caused me a problem to mention you had bad air.  To this day, I could not figure out why you hone in on that aspect.  When can we just let it go?  

I have tried to be very careful in this forum to be cautious in how I explain my issues.  Things of a very intimate/personal area are no ones business but our own.  Lack of intimacy?  Yep that is a reality, and something to work on.  My breath?  Well, that crosses some odd line.  My period?  Well parts of it are normal, but - you have one thing very wrong - I never got so thin as I lost my menstrual cycle.  That doctor gave me a guideline which:  "You lose one more pound, and I will slap you in the hospital." was a catalyst for me.  There I stayed.  Right on that balance beam of weight loss.  Never, ever to cross over into being slapped in the hospital.  

Those 2 things are very intimate TO ME, and I cringe at discussing them in the public eye.  But, now they are out there.  So, yep.  The only time my periods stopped, was during the 2 times I was pregnant, and 5 years ago when the menopause fairy came to call.  Should you want to see that in writing, I still have every single monthly chart I kept for Natural Family Planning.  PMDD lead to very irregular cycles, but I never lost them due to being too thin.

Those guidelines on how to know when your ADHD is under control, I got from this website.  That is the ADHD part.  Can't erase ADHD.  Can't reset your brain to have better time management.  BUT, you could allow others, we love you dearly and want to help you succeed, to help you clearly see if you are on time, or if you are not.  They are not judgments against you.  Sorting through undone projects - that is a helpful thing for all people.  Some projects are pet projects - to dream on - and if they never come to fruition, so what?  Other projects are things to just let go of, and remove from the "Too Many Irons in the Fire".  Carrying all that burden from years and years and years is wearing you down.  I see that.  Some day, I hope you can see that.

For now,

that is all,

Very truly,

Liz

 

Dramamine Please

Ok Liz,
I am beginning to get a bit dizzy here. This thread is moving way too fast and jumping all over the place. My hyper focus is on you and me with regards to ‘disconnects’.
     I am choosing to stay on task and will have to politely refrain from giving into the urge to respond and switch tracks to others comments. I do totally get that this is an ‘Open-Forum’. I also get confounded and emotionally tapped-out when I try to cover too many areas all-together.

    “ Honor” …   Do you want to Pass on my last question? I need details, specifics, yes even the dreaded ‘Scorekeeping’
       Here’s the thing, let's go with the sidetrack conversation on the ‘F’ word. Did this come up because I put “W-T-F” in my cry-out to Melissa? Or was it because J brought it up ?  For the record: YES I have said, even SHOUTED it aloud, a number of times in addressing you. And I do ask for your forgiveness. And I am aware that those qualified , as NowOrNever pointed out as “impact of actions”.   Also: J referenced that word more times in his post than I have said it to you in 35 years. I need a reference point here. 
      Something that has entered relative cognitive clarity recently; you know how much you appreciate all your sisters, (and a couple of brothers) here on the forum who have ‘Got Your Back’ and offer you support, commiseration, and even defense, for the past almost 6 years?  I have yet to find that place for my pain & suffering.. Sure i’ve got J who offers me his kinship of neurology, and several folks here gave me accolade and recognition for my poem. But even the one and only topic page here intended to be “SUPPORT FOR the ADHD’ers’ gets little respect.   I have chosen to not be so intense in my hope for others to understand or feel my struggle and anguish, and am finding my own contentment in just being able to stay focused (and awake) long enough to peck out clear words that capture what's inside.
     Gettin sleepy,
Tom

ADHer...I have been...

quietly following this thread. And I so identify with Liz AND YOU. I sense a real similarity between you and my H.( I believe I mentioned this before). I DO support you in endeavoring to address, wrangle, wrestle with your marital relationship.YOU are in a very tiny minority(of spouses) who is actually HERE....speaking from their side. THAT is not nothing.

I believe my H is struggling to figure out just what he NEEDS to do, see, say and hear also. And I just don't know WHAT MORE I can DO? We are at an impasse.....I am weary from "battle" and "punchy" . I don't want to be....but I am. This is NOT his responsibility to "fix".....it is his responsibility to understand. He cannot/will not look me in eye and tell me what he is thinking(about himself, NOT ME), what he is feeling(about himself, NOT ME) what he sees, doesn't see...about HIMSELF....NOT ME. He cannot discuss the BAD and UGLY along with the GOOD about HIMSELF. 

Please don't give up hope......that however this all plays out.....you each have shared a history....good times and bad......and NO ONE is at fault for doing the BEST they TRULY at HEART could do.

In my life I NEVER thought I would "feel" about my H the way I do at the moment.....I ask HOW this happened every day. I question myself and my "love". I can easily feel like crap and THAT accomplishes nothing. I question just "what" I brought to the marriage.....I am finding it hard to come up with anything other than a "work horse" for his dreams and once in a while...he gave me a "carrot" and THAT made HIM feel good.....and I wanted carrots more than once in a while.

Angels

Greetings Zapp 10
I send you not only my gratitude for your recognition of my intent here and in my marriage, but also, and I might add more enthusiastically, my genuine hope for your DH to delve into the unfamiliar.
      Lately I have had the phrase “ It Could Happen”. (From the movie ‘Angels in the outfield’) bouncing around my brain chemistry.  Melissa O. has indicated she hopes for a ‘venue’ where folks like your DH + me would be able to share thoughts and encourage each other in an unthreatening environment.  I would so relish an opportunity to ‘Compare notes’ with a man like yours. (We could wave our arms up & down for each other)
         “ I do believe ! “
ADH9er

 

Letting Go... Tom

LOL You made me laugh. Yes....I have found that the "F" word is usually coupled with "F"rustration on my account....and I'm usually pretty frustrated when I come here. (hence...the "F" word lol )

You know....one thing I've noticed (with myself )....I am harder on myself many times...than I am with non-ADHD partners which extends to you or anyone else with ADHD which now includes my wife since I'm sure she's ADHD too ( almost sure...enough to call it good and proceed accordingly)

Backing off here for a moment with you and realizing why I do this. You said something that hit the mark with me so I want to respond to what I see....is step #1 before you do anything else. This has to do with being defensive which is really the biggest obstacle for anyone else to get through (to US). It's kind of why....I am so hard on (US) at times in my thinking which I'm sure comes through. If I can say something to you coming from the same source (ADHD)...you might be able to hear it without the judgment, accusation and criticism that comes through when non-ADHD people have reached that level of frustration with (us)?

Ironically....the "F" word for me....is the canary in the coal mine which means....I'm at that place too but now.....on the other side of the tracks with my wife. She's not diagnosed officially...and is right at the beginning of figuring any of this out. In fact....she is so resistant to looking at herself and her behaviors.....all I get is defensiveness from her which really really sucks.

Getting a taste of your own medicine like that...is really an eye opener for me. The fact that I worked so hard in becoming...."not so defensive" as I was in the past...is probably the reason why I can say these things and not feel so depressed all the time. lol That doesn't mean I'm never defensive.....God no.....but I've learned to bring it down to a level that only seems to appear...when I'm confronted with someone who is more defensive than I am! lol

It's really frustrating and.....a real catch 22 sometimes. You can't win for losing here....so you might as well bite the bulllet and give in a little and stop trying to fight a no win situation in some regards. That's the real point I wanted to share with you. It's not about giving up.....it's more about letting go which will really help if you can do this more with some dedicated effort and focus.

What you said here (whether it was your intention....in context ) was really a good place to start...
"I have chosen to not be so intense in my hope for others to understand or feel my struggle and anguish, and am finding my own contentment in just being able to stay focused ........."

"Choosing".......that's the magic word.

If YOU.....choose.....not to fight....not to be defensive....not to get angry......not to feel hurt......not to need to get Liz or others to understand.....by letting go of the need and that intensity to get those things for yourself.....you will be 50% of the way there...to not being so defensive.

What I have learned to date...is this. No one is going to understand....really. You need to let that one go. I know it's hard....and I know how much you need this....but no one, is really ever going to understand. And the reason is simple.....they don't have ADHD. You cannot "give" someone....the experience. And no amount of "splain'in"....is ever going to "give someone" that experience to know exactly what you are talking about to actually "empathize with you". It ain't going to happen. No one....is going to "empathize" with an experience....they will never have. And they are not going to "relate" with you either for the same reason.

I want to take the opportunity to share with you my own theory on "empathy" and why....those who don't have ADHD.....feel that we many times....are unable to do this. I can't speak for everyone with ADHD and there are many who have other things getting in the way on top of it....but for you Tom....because I get...like me....you try very hard and you are trying to get to a place of understanding like me.....here's what I think in terms of "empathy" or why...so many times....we are viewed as the assholes or villains on this topic...

And it goes right back to what I just said......."NO one...is going to "empathize" with us...pretty much. It ain't ever going to happen. In order to "empathize" with anyone....you have to be able to put yourself in another person shoes and when it comes to ADHD.......non-ADHD people can't do this......end of story. They can't "relate" and they can't really give something...that they do not have the capacity or the ability to give since....they've never experienced what it is like...and they "NEVER WILL."

That right there my friend....is something you need to come to terms with. It ain't "NEVER, EVER, NEVER, EVER.......happening. Period. Done deal. Let it go. You ain't gett'in it and you need to realize that all your efforts and being defensive or angry about this....and then feeling hurt and sad and depressed because it.....will always be there....if you don't let this go.

And the burden that we share and adding insult to injury here?? You need to give something.....you will never get back ever in an even exchange. You need to "empathetic"....to the fact that what you do....causes Liz or others at times to feel that your are selfish or self absorbed because of how you so intensely focus on things at the exclusion of "them"....that others think we're selfish and without empathy....but it's not why this happens of course.

And what that means is....you need to "empathize" with others....and never get that coming back in the same way. It's a gift....you need to give....with NO strings attached and no expectation of that ever coming back to at all....and just let it go. Put it out there....and expect nothing in return. It will come back to you for sure....but it won't come back to you in the same "form" as you gave it because of exactly what I just said. It's an act of "faith"...and trusting it "it will" in the long run. And even if it never comes back to you......you are far better off for doing it than doing what you have been doing.....that you can trust me on because it is a far better alternative than what you know now. It may not be exactly what you want or need...but it's better than what you got?

The biggest stumbling blocks to being more empathetic yourself....is this fact that no one is going to be empathetic with the problems this creates for them...let alone....even have the ability to be empathetic with an experience they will never have. You can be angry, sad and depressed about this...or you can accept it and let go of it.

Once you can get that firmly into your head after you mourn for a little while...(probably many times because of this realization once you really accept it ) you can start working on not being defensive since...all that energy of trying to get understanding and empathy from others....was just a waste of energy and time. And what comes paired with that...is being defensive and not open to talk about how to make things better...once you let go of that "NEED".

In reality....it is not a "need". You can live perfectly fine.....without ever getting this. I've said this in my own way before.....but....I'm probably never going to get a ride on the Space Shuttle either....but I'm not going to pine away for the rest of my life....and worry about something that is never going to happen....right?

If I were to pin point exactly....what you should do as a first step Tom? Let go of this "need"...and come to terms with it yourself in the way you need to do it. I can't tell you how to do it....but talking yourself out of it....like my "Space Shuttle" example...is a good place to start. I came up with that one a long time ago...and I use it when I'm confronted with yet.....another thing that is never going to happen....but I wish it would. I just picked something that was not really necessary....but sure would be cool if it were ever to happen? LOL

And by the way. I have come to terms with something else you might think about changing you goals for what you think you want or need for yourself?

What you got now...and what you think you need to be "better"....may not be possible or even realistic. As far as "happiness" as a goal? Happiness....is not a realistic goal and I think people get way laid by the fact...they are not.....happy all the time. NO ONE...is happy....all the time. That's a myth or an "ideal" that is not even realistic to begin with.

Being....."Okay".....I've found....is a whole lot better...than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick. It's neihter...."happy".....or ......"sad". It's just Okay....and Okay is "pretty good"....all things considers?

I may not be as "happy" as often as I would like to be.....but "pretty Okay"....is far better than what you got? You can look at that way and possibly set your goals and sights on things that are really possible....and be happy about being "pretty Okay" most of the time. It could be a whole lot worse which you probably know already?

J

Hi, J.  Some good points here

Hi, J.  Some good points here.  But I disagree about empathy.  I think that a person doesn't need to have experienced a particular situation to feel and express empathy for someone else going through that particular situation.  That said, some people do have more difficulty with empathy than others, but I think that has much less to do with experience(s) ("has this happened to me?") than with imagination ("how would I feel if this happened to me?").

Your're Right ..... Rosered

In respect to having ADHD....it's not like you "experience" everything differently. Just some things...and not others. As I was saying this to Tom.....I think sometimes "we" think....it's so much different...from our experience with it sometimes. What we get more of....I'm sure....is other peoples frustrations and the criticisms that come from the "the things we do" sometimes.

This goes back to John Gottman's ratio.....5 to 1....positive experiences to negative ones to even things out. If our ratio in a more general sense in experiences is less than 5 to 1.....sometimes as it seems.....in the (-) column. Your outlook and general disposition will reflect that.

And it terms of "successes" and "failure rate".....those play into this as well.

And as far as "things that are shiny"? My personal theory on that from my own experience? In part....it's looking for things that give you a "positive expereince" in comparison to the negative once you have in an effort to even this out just by :"feel". If you feel the need for more positive experiences......you are going to "seek" those more often in the form of "things that are shiny" and fun or rewarding. In the very essence of this.....you are doing things to "manage" or offset these experiences which is a form of actually "managing your ADHD" which comes in this form or manifestation.

So looking at it that way....the more "negative experiences" you have in your relationship....the more you will seek positive once else where which only causes us to withdraw or move away from your spouse...and towards something positive instead. It's not "personal" in the sense the it's not (YOU) that is being moved away from.....it's the negativity....coming from (you) that causes this to happen.

(aside from you here for the moment in respect to your situation now) This is the part...that is so difficult for others to understand...and why....if you understand it.......you can play a part in this yourself coming from the other side to influence this either....positively or negatively.....for yourself that is. What I said to Tom about not expecting things go come back directly...but in a different from and looking at it that way....is saying approximately the same thing but coming from the other side of this.

I said...."in part"....because "things that are shiny"....does not start out this way or is the only reason it exists. But within what is already there to begin with....it serves the same purpose and ends up this way by default? It's just my take on this....from my perspective and what it feels like to me in a more....non scientific explanation:)

J

' Let us not Forget Our Queen '

J

Your points are well taken. I am compelled though, to esteem the non-ADD Woman who l liken to King David with her vast understanding, wisdom and just council. To me, she wields the Sword of ADHD Affected...TRUTH with a steady, compassionate, empathetic, caring hand to both halves.

ADH9er

I don't think LIz is expecting A+ behavior.....

>>>

In my view, to achieve an A+ on this is daunting

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A+???  I don't think Liz expects that.  Being on time 90% is not A+....it's more like a B+.   Certainly Liz isn't perfect, so I doubt she expects perfection from you.  By characterizing her "wish list" as expecting A+ behavior immediately dismisses it because that would be unreasonable.

 

I doubt she even expects you to complete 100% of what you say that you're going to do. We all OCCASIONALLY have hiccups that prevent us from finishing a project.  I once couldn't finish a promised project (get the garage clean today) because I had to take an injured child to ER for stitches.  Does that mean I'm a failure?  No...human dealing with life's hiccups.

 

LIz, like many wives, probably expects you to finish 90-97% of projects...and only not finish for legit reasons.  She probably expects you to remember what you're supposed to be doing 90-95% of the time...and only forget occasionally due to normal human distractions and failings.

 

as for the money issues, she probably NEEDS (not just wants) you to be MUCH better in regards to money.  Blowing thru an inheritance like that with nothing to show for it is really sad.  Having no retirement at your ages is scary.  Wanting to borrow MORE to build a garage when you already can't really afford the debt level you have is thinking like a child.

 

Time to put on the Big Boy Pants.

"All or Nothing"..Way of Seeing Things..."Good Dog/Bad Dog"

Ow ....you made a very poignant comment here..... "By characterizing her "wish list" as expecting A+ behavior immediately dismisses it because that would be unreasonable."

This is where I have to agree and disagree on the topic of semantics and "words" ...not being important. In the very essence of what Liz just said....there is a contradiction in "terms" here.

In respect to the meta conversation that is never getting discussed.....these things can carry a lot of weight......or no weight at all...depending on what is not being said or discussed? If there are unresolved issues...or conversations that are never taking place....."semantics"...and "implied meanings"....become EXTREMELY important. The concept of "implied warranties"...is a HUGE topic for a manufacturer or for someone who "produces" anything...for the consumption to the general public. That includes what we watch on TV...the news...or anywhere where we are dependent on the full disclosure of information and full disclosure of hazards or warnings ahead of time....that a seller might be aware of....but is not necessarily wanting to point out any possible defects or problems which might cause someone to not buy they're product. That includes watching the news for example. There a certain things that they (along with advertisers ) are not permitted to say...or neglect to say....which usually comes at the end as a disclaimer...or right at the beginning which says basically....."caveat emptor"....buyer beware but....."we have to warn you....blah blah blah blah blah.....done in such garbled speed-ed up language that no one really pays attention to it anyway. The reason why it's there in the first place...is due to this concept of .."implied warranties"...and whether there is one or not?

When it comes to having ADHD....there is an implied warranty so to speak...but no one knows this ahead of time....until it's too late. But even if you were to state this up front ahead of time (as I did with my wife as the ...."caveat emptor" and doing my part to "warn her" ahead of time....it seemed to make no difference what so ever...and I am still in the same place as I have always been...but now....just with a different person...with a different set of criteria that I'm having to work with). At the same time...there are some things...that you cannot predict ahead of time...and one of them was kind of indirectly brought up by what Liz said in her response to me about the F word....and her concept of what "Rude" is. I have no idea what her concept of what "Rude" is....but my concept of "Rude" had to do with manners or a prescribed way of "doing things" for the benefit of others in very specific and understood ways. These might be considered...universally understood...aside from the fact...that if someone doesn't tell you what they are....or you never learned these things or were told to you by your parents or someone else....you are going to be doing "Rude" things all over the place..and not even know "what" those things are?

And when you start getting into the realm of semantics...this becomes even more convoluted and misinterpreted....depending on what you think...."Rude" is or not and what you believe in yourself. This starts getting into the realm of...what you "believe" compared to what someone else "believes" and they are not going to always agree with one another if there is some kind of "set standard" or "principle" involved that is not agreed upon ahead of time. If you either "believe" something to be "true" ...or...."not true"...based only on what "you believe"...then you are going to be heading for trouble...right from the get go since "everyone" does not "believe"...exactly the same things....about anything and everything with a few...common exceptions. Lets start and end that discussion with the 10 Commandments...and leave it right there. Everything else and all things "in between" aside from those things are somewhat up...for interpretation...and or....personally "feelings" as in......"opinions". Opinions...and personal feelings...are irrelevant for someone with ADHD who are not doing things to be "Rude"....but doing them because they have a disability that prevents them from doing certain things...the same as everyone else.

It was said earlier by NowOrNever.....that Rude...is in the eye of the beholder. That right there...was one of the most profound things that she said to me a while ago and I am in absolute agreement with her on that. Rude....is a judgment and is based of what you believe in terms of "manners, politeness and etiquette". As my dear old mom use to say...."manners are not for you...they are for EVERYONE else. I cannot argue against that in the least...but I can say...that manners....are not necessarily a requirement either.

This gets into the realm of...."suppose to be"....."should be"....and could, have would, have should have...and "implied warrenties" as in.....stating this ahead of time...and EVERYONE agreeing that this is universally accepted which is never the case...because people are free to choose what they believe...and what they don't believe and which one is right...and which one is wrong?

Outside of the 10 commandments....very little else is universally accepted or believed by everyone. If this is the assumption that you are basing your personal opinions and feelings on....as if we are ALL the same ...and should act and behave as though we are....this is IMHO...a big mistake to make within that assumption.

For example. I remember Liz telling someone? (maybe Tom?? ) that is is common knowledge that putting things in CAPITALS LETTERS.....is commonly understood as "yelling" on the internet. If I recall...she was saying this as if....everyone knows this? I had never heard of that before and still am not sure on this one myself? This is actually the first place I've spent any time on the internet talking with people (no facebook, twitter, texting etc....) I just don;'t do it...and it holds not interest with me ( aside from texting....different category and not to be included in what I'm saying) But still......I had never heard that before...and so I'm wondering...where is this "rule book" on internet "etiquette and rudeness" that states this as the "thing" everyone should know and is commonly understood and accepted as "fact"? Like I said....Liz was the only person who I had ever heard say this...and yet....I was and do use caps before and after I heard her saying it....because in context....it's not why I do this. The last thing on the list of anything I would ever think....automatically or believe is true...is the CAPITAL LETTERS means yelling or is hostile, angry or rude in any way???? I use caps to put emphasis and to draw attention to certain words or phrases for one reason only. It's because....as someone with ADHD....I can easily "miss" something...that is not flagged or brought to my attention. As a courtesey....as if I was the one reading it.....I would appreciate that very much...as if "I was reading it myself"....as a favor..or courtesy....keeping how this would be very useful and helpful to me....thinking it would be the same for someone else...to make sure any "points" or emphasis are not getting blown on by or over looked.

So not only is this "NOT" rude.....it's absolutely "NOT" yelling or intended to be as such. Not until I heard Liz say this for the first time in my life....I had no idea or concept of this... because I spend so very little time (or did before I came here) in the past....thinking about or actually "doing this" to even know that in the first place? How are you suppose to know ...if no one tells you? And if you don't know something...and then you do it from being ignorant....then does that make you "Rude"?

In my mind...it makes you ignorant...not "Rude". Rude is a judgement....and judging people and be judgemental in general IMHO...is a rude thing to do?? But then again...that just in my humble opinion. And my opinion...is just based on MY personal feelings. And when it comes to MY personal feelings and believes about anything.......as they say...."opinion are like assholes....every ones got one...and they ALL stink!"

My opinion and my personal feelings on anything..if I try and apply that to another person...is worth approximately "zero" because it is determined soly on how "I feel"...and how "I feel"...when applying that to the rest of the world...has less value or meaning ..in thinking that since I don't like Watermelon......no one should like Watermelon...as my argument to the rest of the World as to why eating Watermelon is bad, rude and should not be....because...I don't like it...and all those who don't like it with me....believe the same thing and feel the same way about Watermelon as I do. That's the way it's suppose to be....as it should be....because it's what I believe to be true....since Watermelon tastes bad....and I don't like the smell of it either. Watermelon..."should be" banned...and made illegal...since it's so rude when you are trying to enjoy your meal...and someone sitting next to you is ruining it...by eating Watermelon in my pressence and I have to smell it which makes me want to throw up. It ruins EVERYTHING for my enjoyment of my meal and makes me want to barf. Even the sight of Watermelon...makes my stomach turn and I get a viseral "negative" Pavlovian response...just seeing a Watermelon anywhere near where I have to eat. Just looking at it...cause this reaction in me.....

Therefore....I believe....that Watermelon...should be banned and discontinued from being a food anymore. Why....because I don;t like it...and this is what "I" believe ...since this is how I feel about Watermelon. I don't like it or even want it around...so why should anyone else need to have it or have a problem with banning Watermelon all together??

Because....a lot of people like Watermelon....I just happen to be on the list of those who don't. I know...I'm weird? Right?? I know this because...most people...seem to like Watermelon and think I'm odd or different because I don't care for it. But I do know without question...I'm just ONE or possibly a number of people who don't like it. I am sure....there are people out there...who don't like Watermelon....but.....I have no idea....out of everyone....what that percentage of people either do...or don't like it.

The problem here comes from forming a belief...based on only what you know...and assuming...and extending that outwardly to everyone else...as if ....everyone else...is the same as me.

This is where.....all or nothing....thinking comes from. Assuming. Judging and thinking...that everyone else "should be" just like me...and then proceeding accordingly....AS IF.....everyone IS and believing this is true? Is that being rude...or is that being ignorant?

When it comes to manner, etiquette and politeness....you are going to have differing opinions of this...and as stated.....opinions aren't worth diddley...when it comes to other people aside from yourself. Opinons...are based on your personal feelings and what YOU believe is true. You can't apply that to everyone....and say they are rude...for not believing the same things as you do.

The idea that things are either...all bad...or all good..and nothing in between...is a concept...that is taught or we learned from what other people have told us. There are no implied warranties...that states...that we all have to think and believe the same thing which we know for a fact... is not the case anywhere no matter where you go.

And so to assume or think...that since everyone agrees on these things in the same ways....that you should...or should NOT have to ask questions and find out "What and How" anyone else thinks about anything...without asking...or assuming they necessarily need to warn you or tell you ahead of time....thinking that everyone just automatically "knows these things"....which is never the case when you are talking about differences in opinions and personal feelings.

The is no....all or nothing....that you can apply to anything? Yet....if we didn't assume and ask first before we jump to conclusion or form opinions and then judge others who don't think or agree in the same things as we do...that somehow ....'they are bad"...and "we are good". Right...wrong....good...bad....black...white....all or nothing and nothing in between.

And all based on what....how we "feel" and apply that to EVERYONE else....and then judge them for not feeling or believing the same way we do??

This is my fundamental problem with Christianity and why I can't honestly say I "believe" or that I am a "believer" I find ...even that terminology offensive. It implies ( as in those implied warranties )...that there are "believers" and "non believers"...and just because someone chooses by personal choice...not to believe in Christianity and believes in any of a number of different beliefs and faiths....that 2/3 of the world is "wrong"...and are all going to Hell because they don't like Watermelon...the same as you do? That's makes about as much logical sense...as making that kind of statement which you know for a fact...cannot be true for everyone?

And if it can't be Universally accepted and believed by everyone and agreed upon by everyone who lives on this planet...then it can't be right and there is something wrong with that?

Killing another person...is Universally accepted as a bad thing to do. Everyone can agree on that much as a given and you don't need to ask if this is correct or is right?

Choosing to believe in Christianity as a requirement in believing in this....all or nothing way of thinking...and if you don't....the your bad, rude and you should be judged according and are going straight to Hell ( all or nothing ) for not believing what YOU personally believe by choice...is where this starts IMHO. Really. Believe this...or go straight to Hell. Either you are with us....or against us.....I AM THE DECIDER!! (anything you say George LOL )

This is where...semantics....implied meanings...and personal opinions a judgements...really are important and should not be immediately.....DISMISSED as irrelevant.

For me.....I question EVEYTHING and dismissing in itself...is the root of all evil as far as how I personally feel about it. Ask and do not assume...that people think and feel the same as you do....with the exceptions being the 10 commandments. Anything beyond just those 10 things...are completely up for interpretation...and there are not "right" and 'wrong" based on opinions....not facts of evidence. As far as "opinions" are concerned....my personal feeling are they fall in the "yeah....what ever category"

Actions...speak louder than words anyway. Going along with "sticks and stone:" and name calling or "character assassination" which is another contradiction in terms. No one....has the ability...to assassination "your character" for yourself. If you are so worried about what other people think of you....then you are bound to other peoples opinions and again....we pretty much know where I stand on that? Worthless....IMHO.

J

Actions have effects

  I will try to paint a picture of how my wiring deciphers the lack of Honor from me that you have expressed.
                         “Liz does not feel Honored by Tom”
      OK,  in a post recently you said you hold on to: we don’t call each other names or assassinate each other's character”, the reason that statement is true for me is, because -  I honor my wife.

The writing on honor or its near relative, respect, consistently describes honor as a sequence of steps that includes impact of actions.  

If Liz says that she does not feel honored by something done to her, she's describing impact of actions.   

 

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Stuff that matters and stuff that don't

I do not care.

I feel invisible.  I feel unheard.  I feel my opinions are "incorrect."  I feel that I have a place to start - God, then me, and then my spouse

 If I had to boil all my concerns down to one root thing - it would be this:  Liz gets lost.

Lost in logical opinions.

Lost in "he said she said."

Lost in defensiveness.

Lost in right or wrong.

Lost in opinions.

Lost in the main thing getting washed out by so many other tangents.

Why do we date someone?  It has to do with our emotions and how we feel.

Why do we marry someone?  It has to do with our emotions and how we feel.

Why do we remain in a partnership?  It has to do with our emotions and how we feel.

Why do we resolve conflict?  It has to do with our emotions and how we feel.

I know how I feel.  I know how my emotions feel.  I know how to pick and choose between what to forget and what to hold on to with all that I got.

Is it honored?  Is it respected?  Is it important?  Is it valued?

I can tell the world what it will take for Liz to feel comfortable.  I know there in not everyone will agree with me.  

I know what it takes for Liz to feel comfortable.

Some stuff I am very content with being part of me - I love purple, I love koalas, I love to decorate my dining room and kitchen with roosters in artistic designs, I love the music of Randy Travis, I like simple country life, I like to be with my family, and I also like to be by myself, I like to scrapbook, I love to be with children, I love numbers - not Algebra, but bookkeeping.  Lose a penny in your bookkeeping, I will find it in there.  I like charts, and graphs, and plans, and goals, and changing goals that are stagnant, and helping, and nurturing, and assisting, and consoling, and rocking babies, and being with my sisters, and encouraging my son and my daughter, and helping my spouse.

I love those things.  They all add up to Liz

Very truly,

Liz

Liz......Something That Came to Mind

Everyone has "feelings" right? You me and everyone else. In the moment....you may be angry with someone. Does that mean....you no longer Love someone...if you are angry with them because your anger over rides your feelings of Love? As I heard you say you get lost....this reminder me of one of the very first things my therapist ever told me and what he was stating without saying it....as the goal for doing this with him. I know I've said this before...but it's worth repeating.

As he said it...."Like a Bull....with a ring in the end of it's nose. ( you being the Bull here ) As said....you've got a huge animal that weights 1,500 lbs...who could crush you in an instant if they got it in there mind to do so. But they learned some time centuries ago....if they put a little tiny metal ring in their nose....a normal human (even a small child ) can get a hold of that ring...and lead that Bull around by the nose anywhere you want it go. It's because...the inside of their nose...is so sensitive to pain and so vulnerable to being "hurt" if you yank on the ring (which they know without having to be taught this since it's such a tender area) that you can dictate and control this huge dangerous animal around...and not even have any personal skills or strength to do this. You are in control of the Bull with a ring in it's nose....the Bull...has to go where ever YOU take it...because that ring represents a way to control and manipulate the Bull around and YOU determine...where the Bull goes...and what the Bull will do. You are in control of the Bull...the Bull is not in control of You.

And so it goes with your feelings. If your "feelings: dictate what you do and control you...and you can't control your feelings and how you feel (you have no control or power to over ride them and think your way through them ) then you are being controlled by your own feelings....and you are not in control of yourself. Your feelings will dictate and be telling you what to do.....YOU...the thinking person with a free will and free mind to do what you want...will have no choice but to follow what ever your "feelings" tell you and YOU...are being controlled by them. The same as a small child...who walks up to a huge Bull...and grabs it by this tiny ring...and can lead the Bull around by the nose...;and make it go anywhere the child wants it to go. The Bull is not in control here...the small weak little defenseless child is.....by simply inserting a tiny metal ring....into the Bulls nose.

The concept and what going to therapy did for me....was to remove the ring from my nose...and put the control back where it belongs. In what I believe and think....not what my feelings tell me to do. I may not be able to control my feelings per se.....but I don't have to follow them or believe them and do what they tell me to do. I have control....over my feelings....as long as their isn't a ring in my nose....that allows my feelings to dictate...what I do....in spite of them. They may not go away and I still "feel" the same.....but I have control of them...they do not have control of me.

Just because I am angry with someone or my wife....doesn't mean I stop Loving them? I have control of this.....my feelings don't tell me what to do? I decide my actions...based on my feelings. My feelings do not get to determine my actions....in spite of what they are telling me. I AM The DECIDER of my own feelings.....I can "think" and I can "reason" and I have the power over my feelings....to over rides them any time I choose.....despite anything my feelings are telling me to the contrary.

Once the ring comes out....you are no longer "following" anybody. No matter what they say....no matter what they do. You decide...what you do.....not what you were told to do...or what someone else says you are suppose to do. You don't need a book or manual...to tell you.....YOU tell YOU...what to do. You are the Captain of your own ship and are your own leader. You follow no one...and decide everything by choice. YOUR choice....not your parents....not the Church....not what you learned in school....not what Your H tells you.....your freidns...or what you read or hear on TV. Nothing you do....is contingent....on anyone else....when the ring comes out and you are in control. You follow no one. You lead yourself by choice in everything because what anyone else feels or thinks you should do....might be considered...but they have no influence over how you feel about yourself and what you do. They have "no power over you what so ever" and "they have no power in controlling how you "feel" based on them....and what someone else "feels" or any opinions that THEY have about you. When the ring comes out...."they" have no power or control over YOU because YOU now are in complete control and have the power over your own feelings....and get to choose what you will do with them. They DO NOT get to decide....what your actions and behaviors will be. You need no one else's permission to do this. You are free to choose in everything and it is not determined...by getting someone else to feel the same as you do about anything. When the ring comes out.....you are Free

As my T...humorously has done before.....as he waves his hand in the air in a sweeping motion and states " You have no power over me....your Jedi mind tricks do not work here" LOL

There you go Liz. Feelings and control...and who's in charge?

J

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Got that lesson under my belt

J,

I am at such a nice stable space in my life.  People's opinions may sting my flesh, but they do not control my choices.  I am surely no longer lead around by my feelings.  

I am speaking here about how I feel about a certain situation.  I look at things on a day to day, situation to situation basis.  Much too, like Glinda, the good witch of the east, "You have no power here! Be gone, before someone drops a house on you too! " 

I am talking about making choices.  And back to that sandbox analogy.  Everyone gets some sand flung at them in a sandbox. Usually it is not on purpose.  Yet, when some one, every time, flings sand in your face, you can go play in another sandbox. 

If you run over someone's toes, you can apologize for hurting them.  Their toes still hurt, but you made amends for your accidental actions.  It is a totally different scenario if you spend all your time trying to insist their toes were never hurt.  

 

Liz 

Liz, I so can relate to this

Liz, I so can relate to this post of yours.  I have strong feelings; I am not led around by them; but on the rare occasions when I express them or talk about them, some people choose to attack me for having those feelings or claim that I am being a victim.  I think those responses are attempts to get us to shut up.  Why are we attacked for having feelings?  I'm not sure.

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Just because you are invited to an argument. . . . . .

. . . .does not mean you have to participate.

 

RoseRed,

The sort of things that I used to spend a lot of my time arguing over. . . . . .well, many of those now fall into the "If someone yanks my chain, I can, 1. Yank back. 2.  Drop my end a walk away, with an explanation - - -or not!

Just learned about the 18/40/60 rule on a PBS broadcast this past week:   When you’re 18, you worry about what everybody is thinking of you; when you 40, you don’t give a darn what anybody thinks of you; when you’re 60, you realize nobody’s been thinking about you at all.

Sincerely,

Liz

 

Liz....Bless You!!

"when you’re 60, you realize nobody’s been thinking about you at all." And does anyone really care what you do...as long as you aren't causing trouble or effecting them? NO. J

Um-humm

Rosered:

Liz, I so can relate to this post of yours.  I have strong feelings; I am not led around by them; but on the rare occasions when I express them or talk about them, some people choose to attack me for having those feelings or claim that I am being a victim.  I think those responses are attempts to get us to shut up.  Why are we attacked for having feelings?  I'm not sure.

Or for having our own thoughts, not his (or hers, or yours).

Or for saying it our way, not theirs, or yours, or his.

It's the attack on or attempt to squelch feelings, thoughts or words, not the fact that the squelchers think, feel,or word things otherwise.

 

Once, a long time ago, not with my husband nor with ADHD, I was in a couples therapy session, and the man I was seeing, on hearing me answer a question the therapist asked, said to me in front of her, "You cant say that! ".  Which was one of the power moves in that relation, repeated moves to shut down my words and thoughts.  

...At which point the therapist started saying, "Listen to her!  Listen to her!,"   At which point he bailed on therapy. pow-errrr

We werent very grown up then, he and I, but dang.  

Short of putting a gun to my head, no one can make me not think.  Or to pipe down.    Liz, you've arrived there, too.  You are there or pretty there, too, Rose.  I wanted to squeeze in that I've been thinking about you a lot, Rosered.  

(joke's on me, joke's on us; my husband and I are learning) in some of these conversations in which my adored ADHD husband hot button interrupts me to tell me what I was going to say (90% fail) it thereafter sounds like both of us are popping bubblewrap, for a few minutes, and then we get back down from our lability, lol.

.

Nobody thinks anybody else's thoughts for them.  For petey's sake.  

...although...I've had some serious thought about whether or not my ADHD husband discerns me as a being separate from him o merged into him, in his mind, the way that  I recognise that I am not him, he is not me, in my mind.  Big topic.  

But if he for whatever reason, cant tolerate (he does accept me, , more and more) that I think and feel my ways, that's a no go.  Won't work.

I'm Walking in Your Shoes Liz

I love that by he way....I forgot about that one..."be gone...before someone drops a house on you too" lol Beleive this (or not ) this is exactly...EXACTlY...where I am too..... If you run over someone's toes, you can apologize for hurting them. Their toes still hurt, but you made amends for your accidental actions. It is a totally different scenario if you spend all your time trying to insist their toes were never hurt. This happened again last night....and it will happen again. Everything was fine and there was absolutely nothing going on or going wrong. No problems...not fighting...nothing. I walk in with a great attitude and am feeling really good about the day, myself and even my wife. All is well and there is NOTHING to be upset about or to ruin this perfect day. I'm in the middle of just telling my wife what a great day I had and asking her about hers right? No problem. Then....I make a casual mention of something that had to do with my wifes brother (months ago....past history about an event there was no problem about. We even talked about it and had a good meeting of the minds about something her brother said...that appeared as if....he was confused and didn't understand something that I did related to him. It was so completely understandable that there was no way you could see this any other way and my wife even agreed with me at the time) anyway....this was completely unrelated to anything I was saying....and it was only mentioned "in reference" for context only otherwise....it had nothing to do with anything. Not us. Not our day. Not our lives. Out of no where....my wife accuses me of "wrong" doing...and taking her brothers side. This was such an extreme offense and this accusation was beyond belief. She betrayed me...and accused me of wrong doing....when it was her brother who is messed up and confused. I think she ought to marry her brother...and the two of them can go off and have a wonderful incestuous life together and live happily ever after. She is tied...to her brother...and her brother....dictates and decides how my wife feels about ME. First she's Okay with this....but when her brother....who has had a stroke....can think straight...can't remember anything...has diabetes...is a reformed chronic alcoholic...and sit all day and smokes pot and is disabled and can't work due to his chronic history of abusing himself with alcohol and has pickled his mind plus the stroke. And gets confused about events and exactly what happened as "the norm" for him....decides (in his mind based on his faulty memory and inability to have "logic" ) that somehow....he can re write history and then my wife believes him and takes his side....and you don't think I feel a little betrayed and hurt over this? What do you think? And then when I get upset with my wife for doing this.....she gets angry with me and can't see anything wrong with betraying me and jumping ship at the first sign that her brother...thinks someone did something to him which never happened?? This is coming from a guy....who when we rented a house at the beach from a private party.....thought it was perfectly in his right....to take one of the books in the book shelf....because somehow in his illogical logic....that they are there for us to read and take home with us?? Really. And I had to explain why that's doesn't work the way he thinks....simply because...."I want to...so therefore....it should be Okay? We're paying to rent the house...so therefore....we take things in it that don't belong to us????" And my wife....will never tell her brother....how completely "wrong" that is...because she's not sure herself when she hears her brother say it. If I said it...."of course...this would be wrong??" This nepotism thing...is soooo offensive to me....that I cannot begin to tell you how hurtful and betraying this is...and what a statement that makes about me. It's Okay if you do it...but it's not Okay if I do it? I want to scream.....it is so offensive and completely ridiculous. And my wife...has no ability to see...just how wrong and hurtful this is to me. In fact...she gets defensive and will always take her brothers side in anything no matter what he does. Going in reverse....I couldn't get away with anything even close...before she would lash out and tell me how "wrong" I am. My wife...is a hypocrite...and has no ability to cognitively "think" her way out a paper bag if she had to. And do you think....i will ever get an apology or admission or anything resembling any guilt or shame over this? What do you think? I can either....hate her for it...or I can decide to do something else with how I feel about it. Betrayal...as far as I am concerned...is about as low as you can go. J

VALIDATION

Yes, I am yelling. That is a fabulous toe metaphor. You actually start going crazy because you are constantly told your feelings aren't actually your feelings, they are something else. Actually, I feel abandoned. I have the right to feel abandoned. That is what I am feeling. It is a legitimate, rational response to this situation. Actually, I am angry. I have the right to feel angry. That is what I am feeling. It is a legitimate, rational response to this situation. Actually, I feel sad. ... It goes on and on. I have spent the last three years being told that my feelings, my emotions, my thoughts, my responses were not valid. 

The best part of this forum is the depth you ladies GET me. Here, I am valid. Here, I am understood. Here, I am heard. No one in my family or my friends could have any idea what my day to day life is like. Here, it is like coming home to myself. Well done Liz. That is my chief complaint. If I make a mistake, I admit it. If he makes a mistake, there is obviously something wrong with me. ME. Who didn't make the mistake, but is punished for it twice. Once, by being the injured party and twice, by not getting redemption. 

Thanks Liz

"Dependent Origination"

I know you were responding to Liz and the ladies here as you said but I want to chime in...and focus in on something that I have learned in response to you and applying it here?  I was confirming what Liz said with my own experience with my wife and  "validating" her in my response? And as I heard you....you were validating your feelings....because you are absolutely right.  No one can tell you....what to feel or what you are feeling.  Feelings are illogical and irrational...and are "personal" to you only.  "Feelings"......just are.  They exist.  That's all you need to know as far as needing "permission" or "approval" from anyone else to "have them."  Here in lies the problem. 

You can't know...what another persons "feelings" are....unless they tell you right?  That kind of leaves you...."holding the bag"...in trying to figure this out for another person IF....

A)  They're just being "obstinate"...or....."oppositional and defiant".....and throwing everything back in your face and telling you ....."you are wrong.  You're the problem!"

This is a problem....all by itself because.....  "YOU"....exist.  YOU are valid along with your feelings because they exist....along with you. "I think...so therefore....I am and I exist"  You don't need anyone....to tell you this?  Is the "sky blue"...when you look up and see it?  Do you need to see it....to know that it's Blue? (except when the Sun sets or it's night? )  NO.....if you never saw the sky again...and were locked up in a room with no windows...you could lay a large amount of money ( in fact....every dime you have ) down as a BET....and be certain you will win without having to go check....to make sure?  You know it...."like you know the back of your own hand"...as they say.

But what if....assertion "A"...is wrong?  Now what?  Turkey's Butt? LOL (sorry...more humor ?? lol I'm in one of those moods I guess? )

Seriously now......."who" or "what"....needs to be Validated here?  I can say this again in a question?  If you are not Validating yourself....who can "Validate you".... or...... "IN-Validate you?"

The answer is......Everyone...if this is what you need?  The problem you have...is needing this from someone else since this is NOT...their responsibility since they cannot truly "Validate" you......for you?  Right?  If you aren't doing this yourself....then something is wrong here?

Some IS wrong.....but..."WHAT?"....is the question you should be asking and answering for yourself?

"Turkey's Butt"....is obviously....not the right answer here? LOL  And this goes back to the beginning again and making a different "assertion" which comes from the wrong conclusion ....right from the get go?  If your house is built on a crooked foundation....nothing will ever be "level" or "straight" in the entire house.  In that case.....you'd  need to "compensate"...for everything in the house on a fundamental level from the ground up...if the foundation itself...is not built on even ground and the foundation is "tilted"?

But what if....you don;t know or don't realize what the problem is?  You'll be trying to fix the problem...by trying to make everything in the house "straight"....instead of correcting it....at the source and where the problem actually "Lives"" or "exists"?  It's exactly what you would do....if you knew nothing about "building: a house...and where to look for the problem?  At first....you'd just notice everything...rolling down hill in one direction since the entire floor will be slanted in one direction?  Thinking...."it's the floor that's needs to be replaced or repaired" ...and that would be the first and "obvious assumption" to make which might be what you would conclude at first?

So since....we know...that Turkey's Butt...is not the answer as to "WHAT" the problem is......now you've got to rely on something...to figure this out?  Without Knowledge...or knowing HOW...to do this?  You are left with "nothing?"  And without a "clue"?

I don't know exactly why you chose your Handle here...."Dependent Origination"...but in context...I can probably "get" from that.... or have an idea?  But I don't really know for sure?

How do I get.....an "idea"...or get...."something in context?"  First...you need the "right context"...and then you need then " idea" in that order I think?  If the context is wrong in the first place....your conclusions will be built on a faulty foundation and nothing your feelings or intuition will "think of" ,..or "interpret" from this....correctly?  You will be compensating for something here...which will lead you to the wrong conclusions...or you will be dependent on someone else....to help you do this?

But if the other person who you are dependent on to do this.....is 'wrong" themselves....then no one will know what they are doing,..and where they are going wrong in the first place?  If that's the case....you got the blind leading the blind?

Knowing....."they are wrong"...in the first place...will make anything they say begin to be taken with a grain of salt...as they say?  But this is still just doubting...and not believing them...and thinking they are wrong?  This still doesn't tell you WHAT...and HOW to do anything yourself and what to do differently?

Think about it?  As you said this..."Here, I am heard.  No one in my family or my friends could have any idea what my day to day life is like. Here, it is like coming home to myself. Well done Liz. That is my chief complaint. If I make a mistake, I admit it. If he makes a mistake, there is obviously something wrong with me. ME. Who didn't make the mistake, but is punished for it twice. Once, by being the injured party and twice, by not getting redemption."

Okay.....please....follow with me for a moment...while I walk you through the same things I was thinking when I read this?  Can you trust me?  I have ADHD...and I'm not a woman?  Can you follow me and go with me?  Or will you stay right where you are?  If you can't follow me...and let me lead you....you will never get what I am about to say?  I can only ask....I can't make you do anything...right?

But within what I just said....I feel confident enough in what I know...to do this and feel that I am right?  How...can I do this?  Follow...and you will see.

Going back again...to something I learned in college about "business and finance"  As I clearly remember one of my proffesors making this assertion or claim?

"Risk Taking"...is not the same thing as ...."Gambling". 

Gambling...is just rolling the dice...and hoping you will win...by luck or fate ..or both?  You can't...have any knowledge or skill...that will determine what the outcome will be?  And you aren't going to know...until you roll the dice and take that chance?  You are also not going to feel....'very secure" about anything....because you can never know exactly...what will happen and you have no control over how they dice will land?  What you lack...or you are without...is any ability to have Prior knowledge to work from....even if you have.... "ability or capability"..those don't or can't apply?  You need "no" skills or knowledge to gamble....all you need is a willingness to do it...and then you just do it...and hope for the best?

At best....all you've got to work from....is "intuition" or "a feeling"....but nothing else here?  "I feel lucky"...."I think....I'm going to win today!!"  I actually believe in "intuition" and "these feelings"...but saying "I feel Lucky"....is really a misnomer and not what you "feel" instead?

What you "feel" when you feel "Lucky"....is something?  But "what"...is this something if it isn't "Lucky?".  You are feeling something and you know this because....your feelings are valid and you know they are there.?  They're there for a reason..and to help tell you what you should do?  But... in the case of gambling...you're telling yourself...."I feel Lucky today"...and then conclude that you need to go gambling from that...which is building your house on a crooked foundation because something is still missing here?

What is missing here....is prior knowledge..or having the wrong knowledge given to you...in order to see the complete picture?   That's the problem...right from the get go?  "It's not what you KNOW that's the problem.....it's what YOU THINK you know...especially if it's wrong?"

So in order not to "gamble"...you need to take a risk however?  Risk taking....is piecing together the pieces of the puzzle you do have...and filling in the picture piece by piece...and making an educated guess instead?  The more you know...the more pieces you will have to work with?

Knowledge is power.  The more complete the picture you have by applying what you've learned by using only what you know as FACT....you won't have to rely on your feelings...to tell you what to do?  If you've got....most of the picture ( 80% or more let's say )...you can know base your choices on Facts...not your feelings and emotions....because they can't tell you anything for someone else.   All they can tell you is...what YOU personally feel like.....as if....this is what you feel by putting a name on it....like "Lucky" for example?

Now....let;s go to option or plan B)....and move away from plan A) for a moment?

B)  The person you are dependent on to tell you what they feel...can't do this and they aren't able to tell you in the first place because they don;t know that....or how to do it for themselves?  In the extreme version of this....it's called Alexithymia...which means literally "without words for feelings?"  That does not imply or say...they don't have feelings or feel them?  We've already established...this is wrong?

What it's saying..and what it's related to ...goes right back to..."not really knowing what they are and how to put that into words?"  That's an entirely different assumption...to start with and work from here?

And it this is the person...who is projecting this onto you and telling you what your feeling and that your feelings are invalid or wrong?  Then this is the same as the blind...leading the blind ...if that's the case....if you don't know...and they can't tell you for themselves.  But as it appears....they are pretty sure...they know that for you which is what they tell you?  The problem right from the start...is that YOU believe them...until you stop believing them or until it's too late.  And once this happens...you no longer trust them to lead you any where anymore?  Or you should...if this is not what you are already doing by now?

But...now what?  What should you do instead of simply not trusting or believing them?  You could choose to see this as "black and white" with only two options.....or....you choose to do something else instead?

Somethings wrong...and we've established that.  That's a fact.

You are feeling something...and you are drawing your conclusions from only how you personally feel from this...without ...that picture puzzle to work with...and without knowing how they actually feel?  They're telling you...how YOU feel....they aren't telling you (accurately or at all ) how they feel and that's the real issue here?

And you don't even need to know exactly and you certainly don't need to know "why" exactly either?  Even having 80% and only being that accurate...is enough to tell you...they are wrong...but something is still wrong here and you can stop...believing them about "they're feelings" about you and rely on taking a risk...and making an educated guess...yourself about what they are really saying..or trying to say from an objective standpoint....and you don;t need to depend or rely on them to do this for you up to knowing enough yourself...and not making how feel,....dependent or contingent on them,...to do this for you?

"If he makes a mistake, there is obviously something wrong with me. ME. "  This is not only ridiculous...it's not even possible? That's like...."YOUR" opinion man.  You can have one....I'm just not buying it since I know....you are wrong.  From the get go...right from the start?  That's a fact...and you can take it to the bank.  You don't need to argue or defend against it since you know this is true and you own it. You can be sure of it without having say anything...or question if you're right?

"Who didn't make the mistake, but is punished for it twice."  Whoa!! Wait a minute here?  If this is coming from someone who can't tell you how they feel because they don't really know themselves....consider the source?  No matter what they say ABOUT YOU....YOU know how you feel about yourself and know if you're doing anything wrong?  And if not.....then they're just out to Lunch and out in Left Field anyway....why would this hurt or why are you being punished...for know something more....knowing how when they don't...have the same context as you?  They've got the crooked foundation and it's there floor that's tilted and they think it's because of you and that's why they feel the way they do and this simply is not the case?  But as they are making these assertions....they making you doubt your own feelings and your intuition and this is causing you to not really know how you feel as the result of this?

In reality.....  Your the one who the  upper hand here....but why are you believing them?  That's the real question I might ask?

And why are you making how you feel about yourself...dependent or contingent on them or what they say if you're not believing them?

"Once, by being the injured party and twice, by not getting redemption."

That's why...right there.  You need to let this go and change it to something else I think because this can only be right...if you were right...in what you think they are doing and the reasons why?  "It's not what we know....it's what we think we know....that's the problem"

If you are not validating yourself...the you will need someone else to validate you...right from the start?  Once you do this...you will not have the same Need...to be validated by anyone and you will feel more confident in what you feel and know exactly what that is?

What is redemption anyway?  As defined.....

re·demp·tion

rəˈdem(p)SH(ə)n/

noun

noun: redemption; plural noun: redemption

1.the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.

"God's plans for the redemption of his world"

synonyms:saving, freeing from sin, absolution

"God's redemption of his people"

a thing that saves someone from error or evil.

"his marginalization from the Hollywood jungle proved to be his redemption"

2. the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt.

synonyms:retrieval, recovery, reclamation, repossession, return

Okay...in my own words and how I personally feel about this.  This is just my humble opinion and it's based on how I personally feel. For what it's worth to you now.....if you followed me to this point....hopefully?

Is this what you really need in light of everything I said?  I don't think this is what you or anyone needs?  That goes along with revenge or getting even?  None of that will do anything...but make you feel worse?  I know you feel that way and I feel it too sometimes....but why you feel this way is more important here..

The only person who "needs" these things is a victim for closure.  Yes...you have been victimized....in a sense...but by WHAT....not...WHO?  You can't get redemption from a what can you?  And you don't need any apologies from a What as well?

What you need...is to not fall into the trap...of falling victim...to victim mentality and thinking in terms of yourself...as being a victim?

Look at what is happening here?  You've got a Victim...who is suffering from Victim mentality...and doing his Victim dance all over the place and not taking responsibility for what he's doing?  And why that is....is because he doesn't know any better and he is not seeing himself and what he;s doing....as doing anything wrong.  It's why waiting for an apology ,...is a foolish thing to be doing in the first place because of this?  Not until he can see the big picture and put those pieces of the puzzle together...to get that through his head and create this image of himself..instead?  It's just from being ignorant of this...not from being "stupid".  Stupid...and nothing to do with this really?

Not knowing....is not stupid....it's just not being able to see or know what your feelings are and what they are telling you?  If you've got the upper hand here...and you are still believing him when he says anything to the contrary?  Who's mistake is that?  The is NO.....'wrong" or "right"...here...and no one is to fault if both people are wrong in the first place?  This is not a moral issue about good and evil.  No redemption is needed and does not apply at all?  And within that...you don't need closure if no one did anything wrong when you're both wrong at the same time?

If your thinking...is the floor on your house is crooked and he's the one doing the same thing....then your foundation is faulty the same as his...which you can't blame on anyone else?  If this is what you are doing....you're just stepping into the ring with him...and joining him on becoming a victim?  That's making how you feel and what you do....dependent on and contingent on him and what he does or says?

What you really need to do,....is believe and trust in yourself...first and foremost.  If you can't trust and believe in your own feelings and what they are telling you....it's pretty ridiculous to be believing him...when your own foundation needs some work itself and needs to be straightened out a little?

If you can't lead and believe in yourself...it makes it difficult to trust and believe in someone else or have the faith to take a risk...and not only see your only options as gambling instead and feeling insure and doubting yourself and your abilities.

What you've got here....is a failure in communication.  As well as being with a "dice roller" who's just hoping and magically thinking that someone else is going to fix his problems or take responsibility for these things the same as you're doing? He's making you responsible...for what he's NOT doing?  You haven't done anything wrong and in his mind.....you have.....which is exactly what you feel and think?

But this tit for tat....exchange...speaking in terms of being or becoming a victim yourself...is like both people wanting the same thing...and both people are waiting for the other you to give it them?

And if that's the case....what are you going to do about this?  It's not about being "right" or "wrong:"......"good" or "bad".....when it's an IT that's doing this to you....not "the person" themselves.  There is not "we" here....there is only "what"...and "what" you are doing and how you see it?

The same as it is for him?

What you really need ...again from my perspective because this is how I see it and what I'm working on for myself?  Is not redemption...but "resolution."....and letting to of something....not needing something back or from anyone including my wife?

Speaking in terms of "resolution" ie: as in not seeing things clearly or the picture being fuzzy or blurry?  The more you know...the more you will understand and the more clear and resolved the picture will be?  A dice roller....can't see or know anything...to the roll the dice and just hope for the best?

A risk taker....need to know a lot of things...in order to become more educated...to be able to put the pieces together and from that image....can work with something real based on facts of evidence and can make a good solid educated guess to work from instead of only going off you feelings or intuition?

If he only knows how to play Checkers.....you need to learn to play Chess if you don't know HOW...yourself?  If you are waiting for him to lead you...and he's waiting on you to do the same thing.....then what's the problem here...and who or what is to blame?

If you Validate yourself.....you won't need anyone to do this for you? 

Vindication or needing to be vindicated...is synonymous with being vindictive and that gets dangerously close to being self righteous yourself.

As defined.....vindicate. Vindicate means to justify, prove, or reinforce an idea — or to absolve from guilt. If your family thinks you hogged the last piece of pie on Thanksgiving, you'll be vindicated when your younger brother fesses up.

If there is one mistake...that I fully admit and know what I've done in the past  (where this goes wrong)...was feeling the need to be vindicated which comes from playing the role of a victim myself nx suffering from victim mentality especially when I was young?

None of this will doing any good for either one or you either way...but you can't do that for him...any better than he can do it for you?

J

 

Thank you

For telling me that I am wrong and that I am victim. I am neither. Enjoy your day. 

Yes...The Old Oops

Lisa,

The oops is what gets lost in translation I think?  I do run into this with my wife all the time and it's nothing new to me?  If I disseminate everything I just said down to......what ....I just said?  I'll say it one more time without repeating anything else her so it can't be interpreted to mean anything different?  Simply put?

There is "NO"...."right or wrong" here?  There is no one at fault...and no one to blame?  Period.  End of story.  The danger...as I was attempting to say....is "becoming" a Victim....just like I was to my "ADHD" in my past? The operant words here....."just like I was."  Speaking from my own experience with being one in my past....and then not being one now.  Everything I was saying...I was based on myself and more in line with thinking that it's possible in speaking about your husband if anything...and not directly saying this about you.  These are "pitfalls" and :"traps" to look out for...if you are with a Victim...and the danger is becoming one yourself...and knowing what to look out for?

I am not....my "ADHD".  I'm a person...who has it..;..that's the difference?

One is a living breathing person.......the other is a "thing" or the "what"....which is the cause...for the effect it has on you?  If that makes better sense?

The most important part of what I said (and I did say this) ....was the opposite of what you heard?  The is NO...."wrong" or "right' and you cannot be "wrong"...if "wrong"...;or......"right"....does not apply or doesn't exist?

You don't have to believe me....or even agree with me either?  It's just my opinion and how I see it....but saying this from my experience and nothing else?.

But I did say this.....and will re state this again...to be crystal clear ...so there can be no confusion?

I will only add into it...by saying....."no one is right...and no one is wrong here?" 

And when you take away..."right and wrong....good and bad.....you take away......fault?"

And when you take away.....fault?    You take away ....blame?

And when you take away blame.....what have you got left?

I'll leave that up to you to decide for yourself and I won't answer this question for you?

J

Hi DependentOrigination.....

Reading your post and J's response and then your response back and his back....I decided I would say this....

The desire to communicate, especially, in a marriage is one of the strongest human desires I've ever experienced or witnessed, in my life time...Even when the reality of it happening is a very low percentage; human nature will drive us to give 100% effort.....

This is where most of my damaged "feelings" (abandonment, being unloved or unappreciated, etc..) evolved from the first several years of marriage. Until I came (still coming) to the conclusion of the futility of my efforts, and what an illusion I was caught up in giving 100% effort, w/ expectations or at least a positive out look for 100% results....

Try this analogy....You have the perfect glass candy dish on your table, pristine and clean...It holds your favorite candy "Dark Chocolate promises" and they shine in their red wrappers, and you go strait to them when you wake up every morning and stick your hand in to grab one or two, and you come out empty.  But, you can see them so you reach in again and again but you keep coming out empty...Finally you realize the candy is just a hologram....So you accept it and walk away....But, every night when you go to sleep you forget what you learned, and so you go the candy dish reach in and there is nothing there, so the whole process starts over....

I'm at a place of acceptance; (it's been great for both of us) and I've decided to just turn the coin over on the other side....When healthy communication comes to me I will happily respond....But I will refrain from seeking it where the percentage has been so low....And unhealthy communication like U statements or other judgmental jabs....Will get no response or maybe a smile and a fresh look at me back as I move on w/ my day:)...The relationship will flourish, even if that flourishing looks like two ships passing in the night....

The goal is to break the illusion, to stop the "feelings"

C

You are so thoughtful and

You are so thoughtful and kind, c ur self.  I second everything you say, except that I, unfortunately, have not reached the point of acceptance that you have.

Thank you Rosered....

That was kind of you to say; I think I understand some of your feelings....It is so hard to not feel rejection when you love someone who shows no ability or desire to return that love....What we all have to remember is that another person's choices have zero reflection on us....And the vow's that a person vows are solely their responsibility and no one can help them honor them.... I wish you much peace and joy!

C

I have yet to put this in practice

I just learned what was going on. I imagine I am going to keep reaching into the candy bowl for awhile yet. But now that I know there is no candy there, I can hopefully break the habit. I realized a long time ago that I needed to less, to find the 50%, it meant a lot less. But I was raised, and I still believe in "doing the right thing". And it is bizarre to not do what comes naturally to you. 

It's funny, his aunt is coming tomorrow and I am at home washing the sheets, sweeping the floor, getting food prepared and where is my husband? Driving home from some stupid course he didn't need to go to. But had to go to. This one I am okay with, I just need to remember my reward will not come from my husband seeing my hard work and being thankful, my reward will be a little bit of peace and sanity and a smooth visit with his family (hopefully, please!). 

Thank you for letting me know you can get to a place of acceptance. 

As so often you do, you got me thinking with your post, C

 I want to talk about identity coming from sharing with others, and identity coming from only oneself.  I've mentioned a book by Robert Kegan, The Evolving Self, that says that throughout our life, we people are learning growth lessons in the sharing-with-others, then later swinging over to the other identity pole, the pole of being a free-standing, only-me-and-myself identity, and learning growth lessons there....and then back.... and forth.

Do people have a tendency to locate their identity more toward one pole or the other?   If so, is it always personal choice or conditioning by past life that makes them end up having an identity that tends toward identity-in-embeddedness, or identity-in-isolation from others?   I think it's possible that people have something inherent in them that skews them toward one end or the other.  

Here's your passage C that got me thinking about these things again.   I do think about them periodically as I get a sense of what my husband and I are doing with each other, he with his neurologically different from mine attention and behavior; but also with his own life history, which is also different from mine.   

The desire to communicate, especially, in a marriage is one of the strongest human desires I've ever experienced or witnessed, in my life time...Even when the reality of it happening is a very low percentage; human nature will drive us to give 100% effort.....

This is where most of my damaged "feelings" (abandonment, being unloved or unappreciated, etc..) evolved from the first several years of marriage. ...

Try this analogy....You have the perfect glass candy dish on your table, pristine and clean...It holds your favorite candy "Dark Chocolate promises" and they shine in their red wrappers, and you go strait to them when you wake up every morning and stick your hand in to grab one or two, and you come out empty.  But, you can see them so you reach in again and again but you keep coming out empty...Finally you realize the candy is just a hologram....So you accept it and walk away....But, every night when you go to sleep you forget what you learned, and so you go the candy dish reach in and there is nothing there, so the whole process starts over....

The way you said it here, so vividly described a real, serious, sincere and very powerful drive toward sharing, being intimate, in communication.

Instead of seeing the persistence of your desire for communication and sharing, despite your wife's inclinations otherwise, as a failing in your own personal attitude (as in: why don't I get it through my thick head that though I want this and need this, I won't be getting this communication coming my way from my spouse), what if this orientation of yours toward reaching out to what is sweet and good were natural to you.  Meaning built into you at a deeper level than your adult, conscious self discipline?    Not necessarily built into everyone, but built into you.   

I used to think about these things (the self-independent-from-others identity; and the self-within-and-interacting-with others identity) more when I had more direct, daily contact with people with autism.

I haven't kept up on the science of it all, but for awhile, at least, there was research going on concerning what scientists argued with each other about the existence of, something called "mirror neurons"    People not on the autism spectrum (that's 98% or so of the world population) were presumed, based on their behavior, to have these mirror neurons.  People on the spectrum, on the other hand were presumed to have fewer mirror neurons, or weaker ones, or not have them.  

There are Youtubes up about this mirror neuron thing.  Something like "Asperger + mirror neurons" will get you to the theorizing.   By the time I had left looking around at the scientific claims, scientists hadn't agreed with each other about the "mirror neurons" themselves, nor, more importantly for learning how to live with people, did they agree on what lacking, or weak, or non existent mirror neurons meant for people who in any way had autism in their life: had an autistic child or spouse, had autism.

But the run of the usual treatment of the mirror neuron topic was this:   The Youtubes will show you that people, even as infants, pick up a lot of their knowing what's going on, and guessing what's in other people's mind, through being able to scan faces and bodies, plus (say the mirror neuron scientists) by having something like mirroring, or sympathetic balancing, or interaction, going on inside of them when they see something....even if what the baby is looking at is done by a stranger, or even done by people on TV or in the movies.   Something inside synchronizes, like dancing with a dance partner, with what other people are showing and saying.

A lot of people know who they are and what they're doing via this internal "sharing" plus sharing in some activity that is more externalized:  singing together, hugging back if you're hugged, lol, getting mad right back if someone got mad at you.   If one baby in the room laughs, it's contagious, and eventually all the babies are laughing.   If I see you are crying and sad, my heart drops, and I become grave, ceasing my idle chatter: I know something is afoot in someone other than me; I want wellbeing which is not mine, so I attend to you, ask you, or doing something for you, because your sadness is in a way my sadness.  

In the online autism/Asperger community there were some, when I was around this, who were on the spectrum who repeated a self-flattering version of independent identity versus identity in sharing with others; or non mirroring vs. mirroring.

They said that  only autistics are truely independent personalities, and scornfully that the 98% of the world who live, to some degree, in shared events, even shared mental events like real conversations, and shared emotions, "herd mentality"  "sheeple"  who couldn't control their emotions (control being a big thing to everyone, and definitely to autistic people), who brain deadendly just did what everyone else was doing.
 

Well forget the scorn  C, and keep the idea that we humans (without sorting them into groups of excellent beings and duds) may have among us  people who of course have an individual self, but whose sweet spot is as "shared life livers."  And that there may be others among us who of course need and value having friends and family and doing things with groups, but who have as an identity sweet spot "I'm a free standing identity, and no relation with a human is as big as that"

 Some of wherever people end up for the most part, on Kegan's spectrum ranging from living embedded with others and living by oneself as an island is a product of one's past life.  If you've had the tar beaten out of you a lot over the course of your growing up or a long particularly damaging relation, a person of course is going to be in the "living by oneself as an island" at least for a while thereafter.   And the flipside history is true as well.  If the person has known and flourished in close sharing relations (as I think I remember you saying that you had with your first wife) you're going to come forward more inclined to embedded relationships. 

 But I don't discount that we, or at least some of us, are hardwired to yearn for a more intensive, complicated, layered, shared life with other people.  Something just there.   Not the product of past relations, nor of how one has been treated by others.   Just down in there.   

 I think I got going on thinking about all this because in a couple of your posts recently I've perhaps over read, read more into it than you intended, that you're in a moment of saying to yourself  "why don't I get it through my thick head to release that desire of mine with my wife"

Yeah, we all have to accept reality, as best we see how it really is.   

I can't get going into loving my husband more until I see him more, as he is, not as I expect him to be.

And I think lol, that not only people with ADD/ADHD have to learn to love and accept themselves as they are.  

Me...well, my past life, big chunks of it, have been lived in the "I'm myself, all my own" side of Kegan's continuum.  That's where a lot of my wounds and immaturities were.  Lot of work there needed.  I'll probably be working over there on that pole of my identity for the duration of my life.

   But I'm a living shared life person, basically.  I've known that for a long time.  People do know what they profoundly are, once they attend.  I know you know that about yourself, and remember some of the things you've said when you've said "this is who I am...
 

 I don't think there's anything wrong with being so strongly oriented to union that I really don't thrive if I'm not giving and receiving, or sharing.  For me, my bad old trip down the road to the codependent deadend was in part because I didn't know how to handle my own drive to union.   Having such a strong call, if you, like, to the pole of living in sharing, means that I'll forever yearn for union.  All the way to the grave, C.   I'm made for it.  So I'm going to have to learn how to live yearning but not having, or not having yet.   Speaking only for myself here.  I'm not really keen on this, but it seems to me that I'll always have to live with the difficulties of separation, because I tend so strongly toward communication, sharing.   I'm not one of those "sheeple" that the self-defensive autistics scorned online, but I do appreciate so profoundly doing things together, and think, in fact, our societies would go to pot if people stopped doing things togehter.

 It was a really "hello, howdydoo" to discover (because he wasn't showing it yet, before the wedding) that I ended up with an adorable man who for large chunks of his time won't speak up, express his feelings, do apologies, ask questions, remember me, appreciate what I'm doing, volunteer to co do, in any way visible to me.    Melissa Orlov, I think it was yesterday on the site wrote something that I think is very, very important: maybe my spouse is doing his care of me, or thinking about the group of the two of us in ways that are other than my ways.   Yes indeed.  

Of course she's talking about a spouse who wants the relation with her enough to do his own giving to it and to her, his way.  And of course if a spouse hasn't come to the interior conviction necessary for taking initiative for doing things for shared life or for the other spouse, that is a real, extremely serious issue

But I also think that there's a quantity issue here, and it's starting to look very probable that my life at home is going to have less cooperative work, question and answer, call and response, communication and what I'd call sharing than it would in perhaps another relation.  That just is, as I see it, C.  

It'll mean that I'll have do some personal caretaking about feeling more lonely in this relationship than I'd have volunteered to be, but well, that reaching toward sharing...it's just going to go on in me.  It registers in me as something deeper than the way I was taught, to me.  How about you?.  And there's nothing wrong with the yearning for sharing.  Whatever grief that yearning to give and receive brings me.  Just my tuppence.   

Don't beat yourself up if it's the inclination of your heart, bro in Christ. 

 

You missed your calling Now!

You made some really good points about people's tendencies.... (I'll just call it "their most comfortable state") ....Comfortable as an island or as relational....I know I can be both, but, I think I lean heavily toward relational.

I also think in your wisdom, you've reminded me to take a longer look at what I already know...lol.....Our past experience's do decide much of which way we learn....I will spare everyone the details, but lets just say I would surly be in denial if when I do the math on her past, and the math on my past, if for one minute I thought they would total up to be what my desires are, for the two of us today....hummm lol....

There is a healthy way to live either way....But it's probably best if we decide that before the I do's....After that...Not so much... lol....

Most of my frame of reference for healthy living isn't Science based, although I respect those who think the answers lie there...I"ve found a place to get my answers, but I can't always receive or accept them because I'm not in a state to hear, be taught, or follow....And just because I know or am aware, doesn't mean I possess the power to enact...:)

knowledge w/o application is pretty much useless:)

(It registers in me as something deeper than the way I was taught, to me.  How about you?.  And there's nothing wrong with the yearning for sharing.  Whatever grief that yearning to give and receive brings me.  Just my tuppence. )

Yes, I agree...It's creation deep in me!....I in no wise feel any regret because I desire a life of two being one....A life that mirror's Christ and the Church....A life of intimacy and sharing...I feel it is a gift for husband's and wives, so that we can experience the closest thing to God's love for us, while we are still wearing this robe of flesh...But, I do regret ever effort or word that went beyond just being there, in a state of loving kindness....I regret I didn't accept the math from the beginning....

That is what I was trying to say to Dep. Org....I know where she is comfortable and it's no where close to where I am comfortable....And I know all the damage that occurred to us both because we both refused to accept this reality...Acceptance and mutual respect is not about being right or wrong....Pouring gas on a fire never extinguishes it.....

C

 

 

 

 

C.....

I am wondering ...perhaps you and I are doing math the "old" way and our spouses are doing it the "common core" way.....you know......where 1 + 1 isn't so simple anymore and has become a convoluted MESS?!

Good morning Zapp....

Something you said at the end your post to Now about, maybe it's me....Maybe something is wrong with me?....This word (((wrong))) was my problem for so long, and still can be...But, because we should never judge or pressure another individual just because they are (((different from me))) am I going to respect their right to be this??....Or am I going to judge them, or myself, as (((wrong)))??...Usually it's not me I judge:(....

I"ve found w/ acceptance a few things are starting to happen to clear up some of my troubles in our relationship. ONE...Yes; it's never one sided!....A few things that let me know this....My own desire to point out what I view as truth or is needed in our relationship and that I can do so, so self righteously as I proclaim it at times; too often. My desire to control instead of to accept, love and respect....

In short Zapp; I've decided if the husband part of this marriage is going to be what is should be. The husband had to do the work that only he can do....I want to be very uncomfortable with any words or actions directed at my wife that isn't loving kindness and respectful.....From the simplest of things to the most intimate....

I've decided different don't always have to be labeled as right or wrong....If I'm going to continue in that kind of mindset, i should leave now; because the Lord knows we have many many difference's.....And guess who that robs from having a life??? Hint: it isn't her...lol...

Besides, that's God's Job, and since it's only by His Mercy and the Grace that comes through my Lord, that I experience freedom from my own Sin....I feel it's time to fully face C or at least at what level I'm capable....I decided I would start at being very concerned with myself vs being concerned about someone or something I am powerless to change....

Be tender hearted one to another? A soft answer turns away wrath? At some point I have to decide if I truly believe all these truths that are echoing in my heart and mind???

Blessings Zapp!

C

C....What Came to Mind

As I was reading what you and NON were saying....I was having my own image of he same thing.  Here's my take on it.....

"You have the perfect glass candy (bowl) on your table, pristine and clean, and filled with water...It holds your favorite candy "Dark Chocolate promises" and they shine in their red wrappers along with a Piranha swimming around in there, and you go strait to them when you wake up every morning and stick your hand in to grab one or two...and you get bit by the Piranha every time you try.  After a while, you give up trying to get the candy....because the Piranha keeps preventing you from getting to the bottom where the candy is and this becomes more painful...that the Candy is worth?"

Now some would forget about the candy all together because they are tired of getting bit and move on to other things that are not as "painful" to try and get?  Maybe a Hershey's bar...instead of Godiva's? Or maybe just give up on Chocolate all together and only "wish" they could have some?

Some may say....."eh....who need's those stupid chocolates anyway....they're just sour grapes to me!!!"

And some may go....mmmm?  Maybe there's another way to do this?

"I could pour soap in the water and kill the Pirahna....that would do it??"

or....."I know.....and they go get one of those cherry picker gadgets with the prongs that spread out when you push the button at the other end and come back and get the candy out with that instead?  It's a lot more effort and work to get that piece of candy...but it's worth the effort once you finally get it?" (cave man make tool.....cave man no fool lol )

"In the mean time....someone comes along and see's you're prongy device and asks what's that for? And you reply...."to get candy out my bowl."   And they go...."you don''t need that....just stick you hand in and grab the candy".....not knowing your bowl has a Pirahna in it...since their's doesn't have one?"

And you say....."speak for yourself....come to my house and try that.....then you'll see."

And they say "I don't get that....what's so hard about getting candy out of a bowl that you need a prongy device?  You don't need a prongy device to do this.....I've been doing this all my life and I don;'t need a prongy devise? In fact...no one I know or have ever known needs a prongy devise to get candy out of a bowl....I think you're wrong here."

And you say "screw you....I know what I'm doing!!!"

And the other person says..."well, you're an idiot.  That's all I can say"

The problem here is.....each one knows something....the other one doesn't know but both think they're right? And since the assumption is they're right.....neither one considers they might be wrong and it all self righteous and defensive about it....

Instead of questioning them with doubt and suspicion and saying "what's that for?"....or....in response saying....."to get candy out my bowl."  all incensed like "why are you asking me....what I look like...an idiot?"...and assuming all candy bowls have Pirahnas in them just like mine"...both people,  are actually being self righteous.....because both are (pre)suming to be right and know the ONE right wat to do it...which is right for everyone....because ( I )  said so. ( aren't we special?  side note:  NO!!! lol )

Both....are being presumptuous, self righteous, judgmental  "idiots"...... since neither one is asking the question "why?"...and instead....."assuming they don''t know.....and they could be wrong?"

No one...can know everything right?  Which means....you can always be wrong...no matter what you think you know?

What you said here C...."Acceptance and mutual respect is not about being right or wrong....Pouring gas on a fire never extinguishes it.....adding in here my two bits    And assuming you might be wrong...and there might be a "different" explanation?  And allowing for "differences" and mutually respecting them on both sides equally.

How about that?

J

 

Inability J

If I respect you, instead of wanting to control you, it doesn't matter if there is a "different explanation"....My point here isn't that I can't be wrong; (lol, no question I can) my point is, if I have to go to hell (human effort) trying to get you to care enough to give that "different explanation"....Then no thanks, I love you too much for that....I also love me to much for that....

I will just walk away and accept that your story is one that you are comfortable with....Our stories are our own, whether we own them or not, doesn't matter.....

C

 

 

Not that I have the lesson

Not that I have the lesson Learned C...

but I think your approach is the right one.   So many times differences and disagreements get cast in win-lose.  Somebody's got to be wrong if someone else is right.  Which if you look at the logic of it, is nuts very often.

  Either she wins or I do. She WILL put the toothpaste where I say it ought to be or I'll pop.  Or no I wont pop, I'll MAKE HER FEEL BAD for her profligate toothpaste tube placing  (..I'm making fun of myself.  Somedays I am so triggered by doing cleanup.)

 He's putting me down so I'll push right back and put him down more, dang it.   Because, lord help us, we cant both be wrong.....hahaha so HE is.

  : D and if he outtalks me and grinds me down into silence....I'm going to burn his freaking toast tomorrow morning.

yes yes, two different stories C.   Or people. 

  

 

Toasters

...those were real feelings I sometimes wrestle with, but faux situations.   Just to reassure you that we don't have piles of incinerated toast in our house.  

In fax, I don't do toast, The Man does from time to time.   I bought him one of those genius toasters that work like a factory assembly line, majestically takes the toast in, toasts it, and then the toast rises from the toaster like Venus rising from the sea, and the thing then beeps.   I couldn't burn my husband's toast if I wanted to...although I suppose there's the broiler, that would do it.

...just goofing around, C.

Me too!

Even Angels such as yourself....still has to deal w/ this flesh! ugh!...LOL....

Have a blessed day Dear Friend!

C

Ha ! What You Talk About???

But...I'm ME....I can't be wrong? Can't you respect that!!  Now drop and give me 20....and show me how much you respect ME!!! I know ALL!!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/It_Shoots_Further_Th...

 

"I'm not sure?? mmmmm??..  I'd call that Sea Foam Green....but, I don't know?,...what do you think??  I could be wrong though?......I'm just not sure??? mmmmm???

http://i.imgur.com/IiPjA.jpg

 

J

 

The effects of Denial of the Obvious.....

Quick Quiz J....

What happen's to a person's emotions who is in Stone Cold Denial of the Obvious??

What happen's to a person's emotions who tries to point out the Obvious to someone in Stone Cold Denial of the Obvious??

I don't think you need the answer sheet.....LOL....

A man has got to know his limitations....Yep; I like Acceptance....

C

C A Man's Gotta Do..........

I wanted to take a moment to say something to you specifically because in context to all that you shared here....I am getting the message.  So often, I'm putting things out there that might be good approaches or perspectives to have for both people.......IF....both people are close enough to fill the gap in between?

But as I hear you....you've got a chasm not a gap and that chasm is denial to an extreme.  You know the score in your own situation and  as they say...."a man's gotta do.....what a man's gotta do".  That's an old saying that I don't think applies just to "men" either.  At least in the context that that saying originated.  None the less....it still applies I think?

I really believe for "what ever reason"....you can point to as to why someone "refuses" to look at themselves....and "refuses" to take personal responsibility for their actions (or they're thinking? ) and figure out "why" themselves......in respect to what I just read Liz saying about (it doesn't matter "why"? ) as far as someone else is concerned.....this is very true.

"I"..need to know "why" for myself only.  I need to know these things so I can get to the bottom of "myself" and my ADHD and then do things about them and take action.  "Knowing"...is the first thing that needs to happen.  "Doing" come second.  "Denial".....prevents or blocks the "knowing" part from happening and along with it.....the "awareness" that needs to takes place once you "know".

I keep talking about or mentioning "seeing" as my means to understand certain things that my ADHD creates for me.  "Seeing" is just another way of saying.....becoming aware and that you actually "notice" or it's on your radar now where it was not before?  That HAS to happen...or nothing will become of it.  Nothing.  No awareness......no "actions"......no "results".

All of this...falls under one roof and that one roof involves denial if that's the problem.  It's like the locked door that you've got to open to get to the "awareness' in the first place if you will?

The doing part is another category.  I may have too many things on my mind, too little time, and alligators biting my ankles on any given day...where I've got to do something that requires all my reserves just to manage.  These aren't "ME" created problems or fires....they fall more into the "Shit Happens" category and life "getting in the way" at times.  Sometimes it's all I've got...to do "what a man's gotta do" in terms of doing these things and I can't be working on "self improvement" and "focused" on anything else for a moment or even longer in time where I'm just not going to be as faithful in keeping up with "myself" under those circumstances.  In respect to this....I may fail or fall short of something I've been working on and steadily improving as far as "habits" are concerned....but the same time...I am aware of this and it's more of a conscious "shift" of attention ...knowing I've got to make a choice.  Either I try to be perfect and never back slide or fail?   Or I let something else go and that becomes a bigger problem.  We're all human right?  Even with having ADHD.....these things still apply to me...even if those don't apply to you in the same way?

But at the end of the day.....or week....or month....or year.  What you will see more often is improvement not perfection and not ever failing?  To error or fail is human.  To NEVER:  change, improve, grow and move forward and always stay the same over time..does not necessarily fall into this category I think?

What I was mentioning to you a while ago in saying that in some things....I cannot make promises and I won't.  I do know my limitations too and to make promises where I should not...is where denial starts coming into play.  In many ways (now understanding this in light of my wife and what she has working against her)  she is unreasonable and demanding more than is possible and she has trouble understanding why?  On her end....it is magical thinking.  She "wants" things...or "needs" things....but she cannot connect the dots between..."wants"....."needs"...."feelings"....and how to get there?  The gap in between where she is....to where she wants to be (or feels she needs to be) just to be Okay (feel Okay and not....bad )....she's looking for the way to get there by filling the gap..or having me fill it for her.  Mainly.....without her realizing it.....she "needs" gap filler....and there is an expectation that she is completely unaware of in herself and where it comes from that says "tag your it"...for anyone else to do this for her. 

Like somehow....this just "magically happens" and then everything will be Okay?  There is not path or point from A to Z in her mind sometimes.  It's almost like she thinks there's some kind of "transporter"...like in Star Trek where you just want something and then it just will happen (some how? ) and it will just materialize.....by "magic" without her doing anything or initiating it on her own?  And then when it doesn't...she gets upset or is dissapointed?

And why is that?  Because she hasn't done something to make it happen?  She waits for me to make it happen...and complains she has to "wait?"  She's "disappointed" when " I don't do something for her."....but expects it without having to ask?  She gets angry when "things" just don't happen....but can't connect....."why" they don't happen....to "what" she did or either didn't do?

The operant word here is "do".  As in...."action" ?  She's very good at seeing what I'm "doing"...."right or wrong"....but she can't see what she's "doing" in the same way?  And "actions" do...speak louder than "words".

And when I've tried to repeatedly talk to her about the "pathways" to get there and lay them out ( like a schematic diagram on paper ) to show her what I'm talking about....she's say things like....."you make everything so complicated "....or....."most people don't need to do this"...or ...."what your'e doing" in my attempt to explain this too her?  Note:  "me doing"....not her here?

Waiting for me to do "things"......."FOR HER".......instead of "doing them" herself.  Everyone has "things" they need to do.  And everyone is responsible for doing "certain things."  If you're having to do "these certain things"....for another person (like thinking for example as just one thing....no one can do for you ) .....they're not doing anything here, but you are if things are going to get done?

Things gets right down to personal or "fundamental responsibilities" and one of those is being responsible for your emotions, your reactions and your behaviors and "how you think".  All of those things....that another person cannot do for another person (unless they're a child who can't do this for themselves) fall under the category of "doing" and "not doing"....if it's you who has to do this.....FOR THEM.

My wife's magical thinking is not my responsibility.  Neither are her "unrealistic" needs or the "no thought"..."no ability to problem solve" to create those paths (the schematic diagrams) that anyone should be able to understand without saying they are "complicated".  Her unreasonable demands that come from this goes hand in hand along with the disappointments she experiences from her own failure in this department and any overblown emotions or reactions due to this....are clearly not my fault or responsibility. 

She needs to do....."something" to correct this and in theory.....I "shouldn't have to do anything" to make this happen....but...if I don't do something here myself....I know my wife won't do it?  A mans gotta do.....right?  I need to make "something happen" here...but as I see it...."doing things "for her" so she won't have to...is not the "what" here as far as I'm concerned.

The "what" is getting her to "see it" first....which is my primary mission here if there is one?  Like I said...."no see-y"....."no do-y".  In that order.

Seeing and getting her to "see"......is not doing it "for her" and she hates when I do that....with a passion sometimes! lol

Why"....Because I'm not doing it "for her" and I'm not "doing" what she should be :"doing" for herself?  As I :see it".....knowing where why and what is important...but also important to know "what is yours" and "what is someone else's?"

My wife's a big girl....refusing to take responsibility for what's not mine....and not "doing" what is hers to do...is exactly what I'm "doing" and the actions I'm attempting to take.  If "seeing" is believing....then I'm trying to make a believer out of her and not trying to do this for her...but by not "doing" what is not mine as my means to get there?

2 -1  =  1 ie;   Your personal reasonability not doing another persons for them.  If what is left ...."undone"...because "you didn't do it"....do the math...there's only one place left to look?  But the only way that can happen....is if "YOU" refuse to do it yourself and don't cave in for your own reasons.

In the meantime....with my wife and my situation.....I'm still going to be accused or "not thinking for her"...."not doing for her"....and her "waiting for me to do it."  There's only a short list of actual "things" she does not possess in her ability to do the same as I can ( like my skills that it took me years to learn).  I don't expect her to do those things at all......I do expect her to "think" and solve here own problems by herself on her own and not make me do that for her?  And when I don't...she gets upset...because she always had someone else there where if she gets angry and upset enough with....that they will end up doing it if she can blame them and project onto them....what is hers not theres.....and they take it in.

When I don't take it in.....she's got no where else to turn to?  And this is when the first and immediate response I get is..."when I'm leaving then" as her solution to everything. 

"I'll go somewhere else where I can magically "think" my way through life and no one will make me do anything or "think" for myself.  In that respect....I am forcing her to do this....or leave....take your pick?

A 'woman's" gotta do....what a "man" use to do.....now a days?  Times have changed.....what our parents had no longer exists any more in todays world whether we like it or not?  And even if it still exists somewhere....it doesn't exist in my mind and that's really all that matters isn't it?

If I don't want to end up like my parents....then I need to do something different?  Monkey "see"....monkey "do"....what I'm NOT....is my parents for Christ sake?  I "see" and "think" differently than they did and I'm not copying their mistakes?  They were hopelessly co-dependent...and I definitely am not and I am totally aware...of what this is....and what I need to do..to not let this happen as hard as my wife is trying...to "do this".

J

J

Hello J

You make a lot of great points in this post about ADHD and it's effects, when it comes to "Seeing" or being aware and the trials at time of getting to the "Doing".....But, much of what I feel I am sharing in my posts isn't about ADHD or even Sinful behaviors....Although both are, or can be, side items in what causes the conflict with in us, and between us....

Learning to be at Peace regardless of your circumstance's is my message, and that relies solely on an Individuals ability to manage their own lives based on "practical and spiritual reality" in my opinion and experience.....

Let me give you an example....A women's husband is away for a few days playing golf with friends, the night before he is to return his wife gets a call....He tells her about his trip, and that he is getting up in the AM and checking out, and he will see her between 11 and 1...So she plans on it, and makes a haircut appt...at 2:30...He is to pick the kids up from school at 3:00, when he gets home. They discuss it on the phone before they hang up for the night...So 1:00 comes and she is getting ready to go....She gets a text message that says change of plans, we want be home until 6, we decided to play another course after we checked out this morning....So the person she loves the most in the world (herself) who trusted in her husband to keep his word, is standing there knowing that he either forgot about the kids or didn't care, knowing she would take care it. And she has to cancel her hair cut appt, if she can't get a friend or family member at the last minute to help her out.....

So you tell me concession or not?? Let's say concession...So what happen's when this kind of thing happens once a month....Concession? What about once a week...Concession?....What about most days...Concession?

What kind of emotional state do you think this wife will be in when he comes home?? All smiles:)?? Honey I missed you; I can't wait until bed time; this is your lucky day!!! LOL...YEP, he might as well stayed....

So how do you avoid this conflict that produces emotions that are crushing you, and the marriage?? For me it is acceptance of reality....What has the past 8 years taught me??....To accept the practical reality of her living of life and to not expect anything different....Example: I got a sweet text from my wife yesterday, early afternoon, who is out of town hanging out w/ family...She was letting me know she wasn't driving home last night...She said she would wait until the AM.....

So in our early years, I would take this message at face value....Based on what I knew about doing what I say; and what I learned about what the AM meant to me....Now!...LOL....I completely ignore her (not really ignore, but I don't count on it) when she states a time or a plan she is PLANNING ON...LOL....Acceptance of her "Practical reality".....By the way I got a text from her at 1:56 that said she would be leaving at 3, and I just got a follow up phone call and it's 4:15 PM here... And she has been on the road for a few minutes....

So am I upset NO....Did I make plans for us based on her text yesterday afternoon...Not enough devils in hell that could have made me count on her getting up and getting on the road this morning.... And did she mention her text from last night?? Or did I?.....She never will, even if she remembered it....And I would be stupid to.. (been stupid to many times before)....So there you have it.....Acceptance of Practical reality!....You really don't have, what you can't on.....And once you learn to be at peace with it....You can go on w/ your life without a bunch of faulty expectations....

C

Very grateful for your words, Nowornever......

they brought a welcome "recognition" to my own inner turmoil and inability to describe it.

Your reference to the autism spectrum is very relevant to me. These past few days have been, for me ,a whirl wind of activity.....my H and I on the go individually and together. Our time together  held an unusual amount of ADD behavior and as there were friends present....I simply sat back and let it go. It was de ja vu for me...but not for them. His intentions were honest and as "thoughtful" as he could manage.....enough said....because I know it was his "best". It re-affirmed for me that there is definitely more going on than ADD. It is irrelevant, in the end. A diagnosis is not going to help as it will not happen. 

I do not know if I myself am capable of learning his ways. His use of words leaves me mystified. The misunderstandings are coming from me I am beginning to see.....and I am left "suspended" in air trying to discern....WHAT did he mean? Concern? Humor? Sarcasm? Passive aggression?

You said ...   And that there may be others among us who of course need and value having friends and family and doing things with groups, but who have as an identity sweet spot "I'm a free standing identity, and no relation with a human is as big as that"    

YEP........that right there......that explains for me why I am not seen as an individual as important as him and why he spoke in the I/me and not we/us......even after 40+ years.

It is more fascinating to me that I did not see it....that even tho I knew something was a little"off" with him I never stopped, doubted my love for him. Perhaps I am more upset in the end...with me? I am confused.....not feeling towards him what was such a sure feel for me? I MISS that......Where did I lose it? When? Why? On his end the behavior escalated.....or did it? Was it me all along who changed and didn't see it? Maybe....just maybe....there is nothing wrong with him.......and it is me?

 

 

Maybe there's nothing wrong

Maybe there's nothing wrong with you, either, Zapp.

I think it's all right to want good things and be who we really are.   

 

Nothings Wrong....I Agree Sort of? lol

What Melissa said in the blog post about Narcissism is so true.  As she said it....

It is fair to say that many with ADHD are “self-oriented.”  By this, I don’t mean selfish – though it might come across this way when combined with a struggling relationship and poor management of ADHD symptoms.  What I mean is that they are often somewhere inside their heads…often quite contentedly.  They can be completely engaged in something such as work on a computer, thinking through an exciting problem, or with doing a flurry of seemingly unrelated things.  Or they might be distracted by the many thoughts running through their head.  Or spending a lot of time trying to get their brain to do what they want it to do (such as be more organized, etc.)  None of these have much to do with their partner.

Sometimes this internal focus is a good thing.  When my daughter was younger, for example, she could play very contentedly for hours and hours by herself – absorbed in a world she created with toys and in her head.  My non-ADHD son, on the other hand, doesn’t have such skill at being contentedly on his own.

Yes!...Absolutely.  I was....just like her daughter exactly.  This is normal to be self orienting like this for me.  What is....disorienting for me...is when I try and be like everyone else all the time?  When I can't.....re-orient myself again by doing what ever I need to do in order to do this....I start to lose my "place"....like trying to read a book and getting interrupted every 5 minutes.  Just when you are back into the story...the phone rings and you lose your place.  When you come back...you have to find your place again and get back into the story again.

Try reading a Novel that way?  Read for 5 minutes...and then go do something...and read for another 5 minutes .....and go do something else....etc.....all the way to the end of the book?  How well can you get "into the story" and really feel like you are there...by doing this?  You can't....it doesn't work?  It would be a very disjointed and disorienting way to read a Novel?  Like driving in stop and go traffic all day long.  By the end of the day....you're exhausted!!  Stop....start.....stop.....start.....stop.....start.................

Versus driving on the freeway?  I think if you can picture what stop and start traffic...one stop light per block for 50 miles would be like...that's what it's like everyday all the time.  The get reoriented and feel like you are in flow....you'd need to pull over and give yourself a break to do this?

So if you can imagine this......imagine, everyone else gets to drive the freeway....and people with ADHD drive the surface streets parallel to one another with the same destination.  When we both get there....our drive and experience will be quite a bit different and we will arrive there at different times for sure.  Almost always...later than you?

Which means...you'll be spending a lot of time waiting by yourself...until we get a chance to arrive together and then spend time once we're there?  We're so use to driving solo like this....we can keep ourselves entertained indefinitely since this is all we know?

You on the other hand....are use to having the person with you....sit beside you in the same vehicle and you arrive at the same time together?

Concessions would have to be made on both sides in order to compensate...but the concessions are not going to be the same...and each person will have to do something different than the other one to even this out so you can enjoy your time together ...when the traveling is done?

Under ideal circumstance and once you get this down....this would work out if both people understand this..and both are understanding the differences.  Nothing is wrong with this....it's just different than what you would expect?  That's all?

That's all...that is....if everyone is Okay with this?

J

 

My daughter w/ adhd was just like this also, Lost in her OLW....

I can I.D w/ everything Melissa say's her and you too....I even understand the concessions of saving you a seat for when you finally arrive...LOL....But what you have to understand is you will need to make concessions for me also, on the things you do better or different.??

They may have nothing to do w/ timeliness or organization....but you will need the same patients and understanding w/ me, that i need to practice w/ you??

See how that works??

Being there for each other in an understanding way:)

C

A slightly more mature response

I don't expect my husband to understand me. I get it. He can't. Ever. I don't expect other people to validate me. I did in the past. I expected my husband to want to be with me. I expected him to be excited about doing things with me. I thought maybe the "simple life" he claimed to want would manifest at some point. It didn't. It won't. I have to look my husband in the eye every day and know that 50% to 75% of the things he says he will do with me, won't actually happen. I won't have a man in my life who helps me raise my daughter. And that is a huge loss. I married someone who is different then me. And I will never get to have what other people have. It's too late. My daughter is 16. No Sunday family dinners, no week nights at the dinner table, no joint cheering when my daughter succeeds at something,, no other adult in my life to help out when I can't help her. If I get cancer, I am on my own for ensuring I keep my shit together enough to do everything. Sure, he'll help out. He has helped out. He will continue to help out. But not in the way I was expecting or anticipating. 

I don't expect my husband to validate me anymore, he can't. But these ladies can share my pain, and my loss, and my loneliness and help me grieve so I can be healthy in the present. 

Dependent origination is a Buddhist concept... About cause and effect and the interrelatedness of all of life. I am a nurse. I have had intimate exposure to a broad spectrum of humanity. To me dependent origination always meant that we all start at different places in the world and we all travel different distances. It is more about where we end up in comparison to where we start and less about our relative status in the world. 

I am not, nor have I ever been dependent on anyone. I was a single mother who moved away from my family when my daughter was 3 years old and lived in Connecticut and New York and a small town in fruit and wine country in BC. I have a masters degree. I speak internationally about a rare disease. I have a family who I love and who loves me. 3 years ago, I slowly devolved into a sad, angry, stressed out, out of control, bitter, lonely, miserable, cruel person. I had NEVER been that person before. I abhorred confrontation and preferred to walk away than be involved in conflict. I forgave and forgot. And I was happy, confident, gloriously free. 

But I had expectations when I married. I thought marriage was different. I thought that it meant for once, I didn't have to do everything. That there was someone in my corner. There is, isn't, kinda, sometimes, inconsistently inconsistent. My fault. My problem. 

I had no idea what was happening to me until I started reading about ADD last week. And about ADHD marriages. But for 4 or 5 months already, I have already started lovingly detaching, and creating my whole own beautiful world. I hope this site helps our marriage. I hope my husband seeks help. But I am not a martyr. I am likely partly codependent. I will not go to couples counseling until my husband has sought help on his own (or with a little help from me, his friend). I love my husband. But I am not wearing our wedding ring anymore. What we have is not a marriage, it's something else. It's not what I anticipated, but maybe it will work out. I know my boundaries and I have an exit strategy. This site gave me some other strategies, about how to make it work and I have been healthier this week than I have been in for three years. 

So I am not wrong and I am not a victim. My feelings are my feelings and they were justified. You might never understand this because my brain and experience of life is different from your brain and your experience of life.  And the person who has hurt me the most in the world will never understand it. But that's okay. Because these ladies will. And that is enough for me. And maybe I am an inferior human being for seeking validation, but I doubt it. I will take it up with my psychologist.

Have a wonderful weekend. 

Lisa .... Some Things May Come to Pass

Thank you for including what you said here...it gives me a better idea of who you are and what you've gone through and I can empathize with you better in hopes to reach out to you and offer you my thoughts.  It's really all I have to offer you but I do get something out of this myself.  I've found the most difficult part in coming here and contributing anything is knowing your audience and just who you are talking to, and what I get out of this personally....is learning how to do this better.

Honestly....I'm not here to criticize or insight anyone.  It was said to me when I first came hear...that people come here for support and I'm not different in that aspect but I'm also here for my own reasons that are specific to the relationship I have with my wife. You have no way of knowing this unless I tell you...but I have found myself in a rather unique situation that I have never been in before.  I have been married and living full time with with my wife for roughly the same time you have been with your husband so I can say we share roughly the same stage of development in our relationship as you are in now.  If you haven't got this already in  context to many of the spouses (and yes ladies ) who are here on a regular basis....many have been dealing and coping with their ADHD spouses for many many years. (20 or more )

Many have reached a stale mate with a spouses (from the sounds of it) who are highly resistant to change and appear to have an aversion (totally) to doing anything different.

I isolated that last sentence...because with it this one sentence...I truly believe is where you will find your answers.  As you described the concept of Dependent Origination (yes thank you...you have no idea what I know about Buddhism...but to say also,,,,no idea of my experiences and own "real life experience" quite by accident in the realm of "Satori" and then learning more in depth about this experience and pursuing this path as a goal in life by any means available in a very open minded way ) but as you described it...

  "To me dependent origination always meant that we all start at different places in the world and we all travel different distances. It is more about where we end up in comparison to where we start and less about our relative status in the world."

As I interpret this....what you are basically saying is that....... it's a journey....a process ....of movement on a path moving forward and traveling different distances....

And as I hear you and can gather in context to everything you've said....you come here for a reason?  But for me....the reason is unclear from just the things you've said.  This is the most difficult part of saying anything to anyone because the walls and lines that I feel creates divisive lines and create impenetrable walls that many times are ones that there seems to be no getting around or going through sometimes?

It's these walls and divisive limes that I am most focused on in learning how to conquer and over come in other people.  I say this from the perspective of someone with ADHD because these are not ones that I personally share in my attitudes and my thoughts and what I personally believe in.  These are my cognitive thoughts that I am aware of.....that's not discounting that lurking in there somewhere...I have my own "blocks" and "walls" and personal demons...but mostly...I can honestly say that I have them out in the open where I can see them..and now it's just a matter of doing battle with them on my own.  These are personal to me only and I am adamantly trying to keep these as far from anyone else as I can.  Taking personal responsibility for my "Demons" in my world view means....."0" impact camping on the environment....if you will. lol

Having said that.....having ADHD...is not one of my "Demons".  ADHD is not....a "Demonic Presence" or force of nature....and this is where it gets right down to it....IMHO.  Assuming for the moment....that I'm correct in saying this.....the place I've found myself in my personal journey is confronting the exact same things as you are since I've found myself (literally)...with a partner or spouse or wife or SO or any other label you may choose here....who has ADHD and is just now....entertaining this idea for the first time in her life.

In contrast to her,,,I was first diagnosed when I was in my late 40's (10 years ago)...but had been in therapy (which originally started out as marriage counseling to my now ex wife...and turned into my own personal journey of self discovery ) almost 17 years ago now.  So to say from that perspective....that I am anything like your husband (now...as in ....at the present time in terms of "relative status" ) or to assume otherwise is not an accurate assessment of how far I've traveled and the distance I have journeyed.  That includes all the experiences I have had to date so far?

What my eyes see and what I notice are patterns.  I see and notice details and red flags that I never use to see.  I see concepts and repetitive  themes and I notice most of all....."Freudian Slips".  My radar is tuned to "Freudian Slips" mostly...because these are the tell tale signs of "walls" and "divisive lines" and as I see them as ...."warning signs"...to watch out for both in myself and other people.

"Warning Signs" are not the same as "Danger" signs as far as I'm concerned.  They are merely precursors for "tendencies" that may or may not come to pass.

"Danger Signs" are different.  "Danger Signs" are getting into the realm of having to suit up and go to battle and get ready to fight someone else's "Demons" and divert my energies from myself and my journey of "self improvement"...to "self protection"...because from my perspective....this is where other people  get "nasty" and extremely hurtful.  What I'm talking about is defensiveness.  Not necessarily mine either if I am to put this into perspective from my own experience and through the lens of my own lifetime of experiences along the way.

"Demons"....from my perspective....confront me in other people in several different variations or forms.  They fall into two main categories: "offensive" and "defensive".  One is more aggressive in nature...and one is more passive. Bocks (as in mental blocks) are more passive defenses and are more innocuous in that respect.  These are frustrating and annoying and more just irritations mainly.   The aggressive ones are actually easier to deal and fight back (or push back from) because they are overt and not so sublte.  But the far more difficult and damaging ones are the covert ones that do their work in a more insidious and underhanded way. 

When it comes to "Danger Signs" and "Demons"....as far as I'm concerned and the potential for destruction (or possibly doing more damage to me personally and therefore...are more "evil" if you will?  "Evil" as in.....it's all about me and I'm the center of my universe and  these the most hurtful or destructive to ME personally....side note: facetiousness here ) come through to me in the form of "attitudes" and "beliefs" and "personal agendas" in terms of being in an intimate relationship with another person.  These fall more into the "secret life"....that is more unspoken or unseen...that people live which comes from living unconscious or unaware instead of actually knowing "what they are doing" or "know why they do it."

Example....the biggest and most harmful nasty "Demon" that I am fighting with my wife is called "Dismissive".  Why is that for me personally?  Because the "act" of being "dismissed" says......'You don't count."  Anything you say "doesn't matter to me".  "I don't care".  "It makes no difference to me either way"...."what you want, does not matter"..."I do not acknowledge you as a person"..."I do not acknowledge you as who you are"...."I do not recognize you................................

Being recognized....in a sense....gets down to the bottom of what is the most hurtful thing of all for me and if you put it into that "term" only....is at the very "heart of the matter"....if you will.  This is where your "heart" lives and where empathy and Love comes from.  I'm not speaking for anyone else here....I'm speaking for...what it "means" for me.  The pathway...to me "heart" comes from being recognized.  The pathway...away from my "heart" comes in one of these forms and the most damaging "Demon" of all...is called "dismissive".

If you want to invoke "hatred".....this will be the sure fire way to do it.  If you want "Love" from me.....this "Demon" is the one that you need to address because with "Love" and "Hate" parried together.....no one will get what they want from me if that's the case  These two paired together cancel each other...and what you get when that happens is "apathy" and "indifference"....guaranteed.  That's just one example.

Anyway....I could go on and on about this because this involves the entirety of what is most hurtful to me personally speaking to you about "pain, loss and loneliness" as you brought up in terms saying "these ladies understand" as if.....I wouldn't? 

I actually wanted to address this or respond to the Blog post on Narcissism because I've spent a disproportionate amount of my life struggling with this.  Both in terms of having one for a parent...and in terms of being accused of it myself (in more words).  You might even say...I have  become an authority on the subject only in that I have learned about it directly from a professional source...and then spent a great deal of time researching it and soul searching it come to my own conclusions that I feel are pretty accurate if not 100% at the very least.

What I do know is this.  People know Love when they feel it.  People also know when they are being disrespected and dismissed.  They also now what Hate feels like and what Hate feels like from others in terms of themselves.  These are the common denominators of the human experience but the pathways and the means to get there are not always simple and easy to see.  The only thing I've got to work with sometimes...are these "Signs" as a means to find my way...and these road "signs" I've come to learn are the ones that tell me how to navigate and how to read what people are thinking.

The only reason I even implied or inferred that the concept of being a "Victim" when it came from you ....came from just this one sign that I read in your tag line.  It's the only thing I saw that indicated it to me.......

"....and I have never held the winning hand for 3 years."

For what it's worth.....I only have "signs" with people here....I can't know what they are really thinking ever?

J

 

 

Thank you for this

I thought this was very insightful and helpful actually. I guess you are right, connection is an innate human need and desire and my husband very much needs and desires love and belonging also. I should try to understand him. I should try to find commonalities and not differences, I should not separate the world into non ADD and ADD people. 

His demons are not his ADD. ADD is not his demon. His demons are the wreck of relationships, loss of friends, family instability, angry employers, his own childhood abuse, his difficult family dynamics. No fault. No blame. Some made more difficult because of how he has dealt with them. Some made more difficult for him to deal with because of his ADD. And when he is hyperfocused and out in the world, he doesn't have to deal with them. When he comes home to an empty house when his wife is irate and actively seeking distance, there are no distractions and you have to face a lot of loneliness and loss. 

I am defensive about the word victim. It was thrown in my face so many times in the last three years when I was trying to explain what I was experiencing. I truly didn't understand what was happening. I didn't know if I had married a total abusive asshole. I was trying desperately to figure it out. I didn't think I was being a victim. Maybe I was. Maybe I am. I am willing to look at those possibilities. I am willing to consider them. But I have always been willing to consider them. 

I will learn to live with the uncertainty of whether when I wake up, it is my husband or ADD in bed with me. 

Thank You For Saying This

I do understand.  I understand many things in what you said and there are a couple of things I have to say on your behalf.

First...about you husband and his childhood abuse...in contrast to the his adult history and the word "deal".  Yes sir...I mean m'aam. lol

What is not his fault...is what happened to him as a child.  At some point however....he cannot use that as an excuse anymore.  When that is I personally believe...is when the problems begin to emerge from that.  Dealing...is another word for "coping" and coping with his personal problems and issues is what everyone has to do at some point in time in their life.  By not doing this, is when you cross the line into victim hood IMHO.  for him to throw that at you...and say you are a victim despite his own failure to do this....is pretty much calling the kettle black at that point.  You have to deal with him and he has to deal with you.  Everyone deals...or they don't.  Pretty much?

The words that my therapist has engrained into my psyche and have become part of my everyday language....

"A person who refuses to take responsibility....is a victim"  I remember the first day he said this to me and then went on to say "I've spent a considerable amount of time when I was younger with the inmate population in prisons....and the one thing that you will find as a common theme there is....no one is guilty of the crime they're there for."  There you go.

But if you put it that way....most of those individuals...did something pretty offensive in a very aggressive and overt way to get there or they wouldn't be there to begin with.  The idea or concept of a poor defenseless "Victim" is a whole different idea or concept of someone who is aggressively acting out and doing damage...but yet.....they "didn't do it."  My favorite line at the end of every Perry Mason episode (nearly) that I can ever remember....."Don't you understand....I had to do it!! "  No...I don't understand.  You didn't deal with your situation and cope and then you killed someone.  No I don't understand! lol

This is a big topic for conversation currently in our house.  A big part of the problems that I run into with my wife are not because she is forgetful or doesn't act appropriately.  It's because she doesn't deal and cope...and tries to make me the one responsible.

This just happened this morning for example to give you an idea?  I'm sitting doing what I'm doing...and my wife open the door to the room where I am....upset and irritable.  Nothings happened on my account or anything I've done to connect to this sudden mood change....from 0 - 100....just like that?  And she barking into the room " do you see what I'm doing....I'm cleaning dog pee off the couch!!"

Okay...from that ...you might get, that she wants me to get up and clean up the dog pee.  But this is not what she was doing.  What she was doing...was directing her anger that the dogs pee'd on the couch at me...and wanting something from me and it's not to get up and clean the dog pee. I'm so use to this now....I replied to her by saying...."did I pee on the couch!!" ...kind of calling to her because once she barked that into the room...she went to clean the dog pee."

The point in me doing that....and making this point was....somehow, she angry...and somehow I'm responsible?  What is it that she's angry about?  Dog pee on the couch.  Who pee'd on the couch?  The dogs (or one of them) not me.  Who is she directing her anger at?  Me.  And she specifically...opened a closed door and left it open to bring to my attention that  A)  she's angry  B)  I'm cleaning up dog pee...and then goes back to clean it....which was her saying "look at me and what I have to go through.....  look at how angry I am......  look at how upset I am.......  look at what I have to put up with.  And then wants me to do something...but I can't because she's already cleaned the pee before I can even get a chance?

She doesn't want me to clean it.  That;s why she made a point to do this before I could even have a chance.  What she wants...is me to deal with her "upset ness and anger" and share that with me because of her inability to cope and deal with her personal issue with the dogs marking the furniture.  We ended up talking about this and this is what it boiled down to.  She has extreme...sensitivities to things which is another way of saying.....an extreme inability to cope or manage her emotions.  In this case....dog pee on the furniture.

Now...a lot of people don't like animals and wouldn't have any due to this fact.  But if you have them...you have to take responsibility for them and dogs...as in "animals"...do not do things just to piss humans off.  Male dogs in particular...are kind of programmed instinctual...to mark there territory.  It is what dogs do.  People don't like this...so they train dogs not to mark but....dogs aren't doing anything wrong here.  Dogs are just behaving as dogs do.  If you don't want this at all.....don't have dogs?  But if you do have dogs....you need to accept this and do what you can to prevent this as best as you can....train them...and then deal with the rest of it that goes along with having dogs?  There is only so much anyone can do...to make dogs....behave properly as far as humans are concerned but at the same time...what humans want..and what dogs want..are two different things?

It's what my T also said to us one time and I think...he was directing this more at my wife (who's now gone to see him too ) by saying.."What are going to do with a baby who's crying in the other room and keeping you up at night....stab it with a pitch fork and throw it into the fire?"

Just because...you can't sleep and this is making you upset...doesn't mean a baby is doing anything wrong?  A baby...does what a baby does...and we all have to deal with it....cope...and manage while their babies as much as this is extremely difficult to deal with when you're sleep deprived and have to work the next day right?

What are you going to do about this?  Punch you husband in the stomach while he's sleeping because you;re sleep deprived and irritated because you have to get up and change the babies diapers?  Really?

This is exactly why my wife did this ...she was taking her frustrations and her inability to cope with her emotions out of me?  I used this example because this has to do with a common problem with people who have ADHD including myself.  Emotional lability is difficulty reigning in and controlling raw emotions like anger and not dealing with them.  Coping and processing emotions is what you need to do and not react to them.

This is a common complaint from others and it's a problem for sure.  I'm very aware of this and I've been working on this as long as I have been in therapy even though I'm not so reactionary....but still need to process them and not hold grudges and the like even if I don't instantly "react".

So when I see this happening in front of my own eyes ...I pretty much can see exactly what she doing and why?

But in the moment when she behaves like this...she not only can't see what she doing....she has almost no control of it and she needs or wants me to do something?  In this case...serve as a vessel or overflow container.....tag, YOU IT!  The nearest warm body will do...thank you very much. lol

On the ADHD side of things.  These are what impacts others and causes a great deal of problems for them.  This is an ADHD symptom....but how it's done or what you do with it...is up to the personal to deal with.  It's not anyone else's responsibility?

Making me or the dogs...responsible for her irritation and "sensitivities" in these areas ...is not our reasonability.  She could deal with situation 100 different ways aside from this one and no one would think otherwise of it.  She is entitled to her feelings for sure...but not to such an extreme and not in the way she is going about it.  Making others "responsible" and refusing to learn to deal cope and manage....makes her a victim to it and nothing else.

I know this first hand myself...because I have to do this all the time.  "0" impact camping on my environment includes....those people who share it with me at the same time.

I will share something here with you that I did in my past before I knew I had ADHD.  I actually said I was diagnosed only 10 years ago but my how time flies! lol  It's been almost 13 years ago and even before that when I remember my ex-wife voicing a complaint about down loading my day at work and all the problems I had there with her.  It's one thing...in a crisis or and extremely bad day..to come home and need someone to talk to about it.  It's another thing...to make someone else sit and listen you ...while you verbally process it out loud to get it off you mind.

I remember in one of those moments...saying something about "sharing my day" and "being interested in my work" and not seeing what I was doing at the time.  What I was doing...was using my ex-wife as a vessel or overflow container and for her to sit and listen to me process my emotions which I had not done...before I opened my mouth.  I call Bullshit...on myself for that one, the same as I call Bullshit on my wife for doing this with me now.  I know exactly what she's doing.....takes one to know one.

Which is why I said....."Did I pee on the couch"....and left it right there...for the moment.  The reason why I didn't jump up and immediately go after her on this...was for the very same reason I'm saying.  I needed time to work this through...because it really "pissed" me off.  Pun intended.lol

It wasn't your husbands fault he had an abusive childhood....but it's his responsibility now...to figure it out and learn how to cope.  Making you cope...for him and doing this kind of "sharing" is the co-dependent kind of sharing that NO ONE wants to do or listen to, 

This is just one example of how...not dealing...ends up being someone else's problem when it's your personal problem to begin with.  I know this well   but I learned to deal and it can be done.

Having it thrown in your face like this (as I experience all the time ) is his failure to see it and trying to make it about you?

Let's see now.....there's dog pee on the couch....I need to yell at my husband... and share this with him. LOL  Not my idea..of what I want shared with me....thank you very much.  It would be different...if I was the one who pee'd on the couch ( or had a habit of doing this )  which was kind of making my point without getting angry with her...in the moment:)

And if I am to take full responsibility....I could say that this is a carry over...from bad habits that involve things I really do....but when it gets to the point ....or transferring the wrong anger...to the wrong person...for the wrong reason......that's not my responsibility and I don't have to "take that in".  If she has a personal issue and she upset about something...she needs to "Speak"....not..."share" and say exactly what it is?

This is a good example of learning to differentiate...what is ADHD...and what isn't right here?  Sensitivity to dog pee...is not on the list of symptoms. lol

J

 

 

Good points, J.  No pun

Good points, J.  No pun intended: the situation you describe seems like one in which your wife could have expressed that she felt "pissy" without blaming the cause or the mood on you. I'm not sure why some people have such difficulty owning their own feelings.

J a few Questions ?

J,   Does your DW read this Forum?  Has she ever posted a comment or topic?  Does she worry about being accepted here?  Would she consider rendering an account ( as through her eyes ) of this (dog pee) incident?  How soon will she find out if your diagnosis of her having ADHD is legitimately confirmed by a professional?  I would love to hear what she has to say. Would you tell  her ADH9er says Hello.   Thanks

ADH9er

ADH9er

No, she's never been interested.  In some ways understandable from the work she does as a social worker case manager.  If you can imagine...she hears and deals with other people problems all day long but that still no excuse for her acting the way she does sometimes.  I think mainly, she worryies about being accepted in general because she is aware of the problems this has created for her in the past.....not only in her intimate relationships but with working with others in general.  What this amounts to is a very low frustration level tolerance and low self esteem combined plus a lot of magical thinking = disappointment.  She cannot tolerate dissappointment mainly but she's her own worst enemy there.  The magical thinking is a real source for setting her up for this.

And as far as seeing a professional....she started seeing the therapist that I have gone to for years which I did not push her to see.  I only told her that I had a great deal of confidence in him and that she should at least go see him with me.  I'm no expert on how to pick a therapist...but I did see several before I met him and the rest is history as they say.  He has mild ADHD which you would never know that unless he told you which he didn't tell me for years until he finally brought it up.  This is after he finally diagnosed me which was not his emphasis in treatment.  I had seen him for 5 years before I actually brought it up to him.  This is how he works and I have to say....his manner and approach is very forgiving.  It may not be the fastest or most direct approach but it's a very expereinced and well thought through method of bringing you to see things which I appreciate very much.  I see him as more of educator than a therapist myself...and a good one at that.

Anyway....I have full confidence in him to do what he does and the last time my wife went to see him...she came back talking about magical thinking and is starting to admit and see herself doing it without my input at all.  This is where she is in the process of discovering the source of the problems she has?  The main BLOCK....standing in her way is denial...and she is of a very resistant type of person to want to look inward and see herself in that way.  As she has said before pretty adamently....that she doesn't like doing this at all and it really goes against her grain.  As she has said....."I'd rather not talk about my past....it only upsets me and I don't see any point in doing it."  Kind of like...."that's stupid...why would I want to dredge up my past and make myself feel bad."

That right there....in that last sentence....is the problem.  For what ever reason....she has convinced herself  (or rationalized this too herself) and firmly beleives it's true.  "No need to do that....that's stupid."

What I beleive.....is that she was lead to beleive this by her family for all the reasons there are.  "That's just phoney psycho babble hog wash....their all Quacks and Charletons out to get your money."  Or something along those lines.  This is her mother talking for sure...I know where it comes from.  She was the most dissmisive and difficult people I have ever met and stubborn beyond belief.  Once she had something in her mind....there was no convincing her otherwise.

When I first met my wife and we went to meet her mother (me for the first time) she warned me about something that at the time...I thought sounded pretty silly.  As she said..." if for what ever reason....if she mentions "Prune Tree's".....just let it go.  Don't get into an arguement or debate about whether "Prunes"....grow on trees instead of "Plums?" lol  I thought.." That's wierd...but who cares?"  Right?

Well...apparently...she cares a lot along with a lot of other things she thought that was really out in left field?  And I see this in her brother too...as in the day we had scalloped potatos for dinner and he got very insensed that it didn't have cheese in it?  I wil always remember that one which my wife should have warned me about.  I causually mentioned that that would be "Au Grautin" potatos if it had chees in it..and that was the last word I got out on that one.  OMG!!  "NO NO...Scalloped potaoes have cheese!!!  That's the way WE always had it and that's the right way to make Scalloped potatos!!!"  As if there's a wrong way??  Right and wrong again....a BIG theme in her family that I just don't get??

Without knowing any better...and without knowing how upsetting this would be to him....my repsonse to her brother was..."Well you know...Au Gratin in French means...."with cheese."  OMG!!!!  That was the wrong thing to say.  He still remembers this to this day and has mentioned it to my wife as if I had done soemthing horribly wrong by saying that?  I'm understanding now if I hadn't before...is that this was the same as calling her brother "Stupid".....that was the problem and not anything to do with cooking or making potato's and what you call them.

More than anything else....it's about being "wrong".  That's where the fixation with right and wrong comes from.  It's not about ethically or moarally being "right or wrong".....it's about looking like your stupid and that you don't know anything?  This is a mine field for anyone else to enter when someone has this issue.  No mattere what you say.....you're going to end up saying the WRONG thing?

If my wife had not told me not to "go there"...with her mom if she brought up "Prune Trees"...I probably would have said..."you mean plum trees?"  and that's all it would it take.  The "wrath of God" would have decesended upon you with her mother...being God messenger with a Bull Whip and Brass Knuckles (figuratively of course).  But not in what it would have felt like if after she was done with you....like you just got pistol whipped and beat the Hell out of....with her tongue?

What I know now more than ever before...."It's not what you "don't know" or what "you know" ... It's what you think you know...that's the problem."

And how!!!! LOL  OMG!!  Never look a gift horse in the mouth...and never ask where Prunes come from!! lol 

"Well....when my mama found me in the fire place after the Stork dropped off at our house.............."

"You was so ugly...when you was born.....yo mama, said you was a "Treasure"...so she tried to bury you...." (nothing implied here..to anyone "real" or in reference to anyone living or dead....lol )

Ever see the "Waterboy"...with Adam Sandler?  I think this is where he got his material?

Really?  I always wondered why my middle name was "Treasure"....how sweet?  No not really...I think you get my point?

J

PS  The operant word here is....."Chastising"

"Chastised" for Having ADHD

I just connected something to the word "Chastise" so I looked it up.  Low and behold....here's the answer right here.....

"Back in the Middle Ages, chastise used to also come with a beating––that sense of the word has passed, and in fact, people tend to use chastise when they are trying to accuse someone else of overreacting. "You're chastising me for forgetting to feed the cat, but it's not like the cat died!"

Not so....it still happens today.  If you think about it...a kid who has ADHD is going to overreact emotionally and if their parents are of the mind that says..."this child needs discipline...that's the problem.  We'll just beat it out them ....that'll learn em."

I can tell you....you learn something all right...but it doesn't cure having ADHD.

There you go.....what goes around comes around....as they say.

J

A F--king Victim

It has not been a great weekend. I came home Friday and my husband was in a bad mood. I tried to cheer him up for a bit but it didn't work so instead of being dragged down I left with my daughter to run some errands and met him later at a movie. On Saturday, it looked like our plans were going to be rained out, but my husband persisted, and despite some grumpiness on both our parts, everything worked out. Today, I had a bunch of errands to run with my daughter so I told my husband he didn't have to come along. He wanted to come so we headed out. Dentist, then a local university where we dropped my daughter off and.... Out comes his elaborate plans for the two hours my daughter was rehearsing. I went along. When my daughter texted me that she was done, I attempted to wrap up my husbands plan so we could go pick her up. He became extremely pissed off and ranted for a bit. After he calmed down, we met back on the road to walk back to the car. In a repair attempt, I asked him to slow down and walk with me. My goal was to salvage the afternoon. He didn't. He ignored me, and yelled back angry words after I asked a second time. I then made the mistake of telling him he was being an asshole. He told me I was a "fucking victim". I asked him if that was really what he said, and he repeated it.

We have not spoken since. Except, tonight, as he went to bed ( of his own choosing ) on the couch, I told him that what he had done was verbal and emotional abuse. I told him his behaviour was not acceptable and I would not tolerate it. I told him that if it happened again, or if he was unable to come up with a sincere apology, this would stand as the official date of our separation. 

So be it. I am numb. And sad. 

I agree. It isn't always the ADD. This wasn't the ADD, this was just him being a jerk. 

Defense Mechanisms....".Projection"

I hear you.  And this is really hard to take.  The "accusations" that are the very thing....that (the person in question) is doing but accuses you of doing it when you're not?

DPO.....I've walked into the door of my therapists office and almost said these same words exactly  "I told him that what he had done was verbal and emotional abuse. I told him his behaviour was not acceptable and I would not tolerate it. I told him that if it happened again, or if he was unable to come up with a sincere apology, this would stand as the official date of our separation."

And what he said....has said.....and keeps saying.....and keeps saying to me repeatedly....is not what you are going to want to hear?  I know this already....because it's not what I wanted to hear either! lol

To paraphrase him since he's said this so many times in different ways....I can just say it now in my own words because I know it by heart.  If I ask him again.....he'll say the same thing so I don't need to ask him anymore.....because I KNOW what he will say!! LOL

"It's all defensive mechanisms!!  Projection is just a defense mechanism and that's all that is"

"But, but, but..........."

"No butts about it!"

"But I'm RIGHT!!!.  It's abusive!!!"

"Yes...BUTT... Only if you see it that way.  You are going to stop this by doing it that way in fact....you aren't going to stop someone from employing defense mechanisms period.  They don't even know they're doing it and they are doing it....to protect themselves.  You can't expect someone to remove their ability to protect themselves can you?  You can deny them the right to protect themselves can you?  Just because you don't like it.....doesn't mean they shouldn't do it and besides....who are you to say they wrong?  Aren't you being a bit...self righteous here?  Just because your "right"....doesn't make them "wrong? and beside that......it's just defensiveness anyway?  Aren't you being a bit defensive and self righteous on top of it for expecting or demanding anything different?  C'mon....you'd do the same thing and you ARE just doing the same thing by expecting them to take away their ability to protect themselves from what you're doing to them...the same way they're doing that to you?  That's just "tit" for "tat"......it's all just defense mechanisms and your doing the same thing right along with them if that's what you are doing which you are.  So what are you going to do about that?  Oh and by the way....."ultimatums" are about the worst way to get anyone to do anything unless you are ready to back it up and do what you say and be ready to do it otherwise....it's just a threat and threats don't work"

And me sitting there going....."blub, blub, blub................... but.... ah....but.....damn!!! God damn it....you do this to me every time!!!! " LOL

Which is exactly what he does.  The last time I went in to his office and said that same thing...he brought right back to this exact same place again and I went  "  "So were right back to square one again.....Just as before? "

and he said  "Yep. So what are you going to do about it? "

Stay...Leave...or get over it.   Those are you choices but saying this to you only because I am so familiar with this myself.  He can't do what you're asking of him?  He will use projection any time he needs to to protect himself as just one...of the many defense mechanisms a person will employ to keep themselves protected and in denial.  Denial just another one ( defense mechanisms )....on the list.  It's what he "does".

Demanding that a person not be in denial....."just one more time or else"......won't work because that person CAN"T to it.  You just gave him....something that is impossible for him to do all at once and just "stop" doing it.  He can't do that so he's probably just gone off to be on the couch and try and decide what he's going to do since....part of him knows he can't NOT project even if he doesn't even know what that is or that this is what he's doing because of the "fact' that it serves as a defense....from what ever he thinks your doing?  Those accusations (which are projections)...are defense mechanisms and that's all they are?  You see it as "abuse"...and he see's it as protection from "you" and demanding he do something that is impossible for him to do right at this very minute all at once with an ultimatum along with it....is exactly what he's protecting himself "from" whether you like it....or see it this way or not....it is what is "real" and it is what is "true" and that's a "fact" there in no denying.

...... and again and I went  "  "So we're right back to square one again.....Just as before? "

and he said  "Yep.  So what are you going to do about it? "

Let go.....that's what?  I know that's not what you wanted to hear....but it is what I did because that's you're only choice except to leave.  I chose not to leave which never was my intention anyway.  I will say.....letting go feels better than leaving ( for me ) and at the end of the day....it's a whole lot easier to do and my wife responded in kind and stopped projecting which is what I wanted in the first place so I got what I wanted and her abusive behavior stopped because what was abusive to me.....was her self protection and I took away her need to protect her self...by not calling her out and demanding from her what she could not do even though....that's what she does with me and I have to get over that part too at the same time.

All I can say...is that my T is not a hand holder.  He puts the ball in your court and makes you live with it.  I so much appreciate his style and his way of doing this but I know (as he has said himself)....not everyone responds to my way of doing this .....and many people will just leave and never come back to him which he says....."That's Okay too....but I'm not going to do what I know isn't "the right thing"....just to please everyone and just because it's what they want.  That's not my goal....my goal is to find solutions and answers....I'm not here to hold peoples hands ( only ) and some people come here...to have their hands held ( only ) and they're disappointed when I don't end up doing this forever and will leave....as soon as they find out that this is not what I'm here for and that's not my job.   My job...is to "heal people" and "make things better with their best interest in mind.  I'm not here to take their money...hold their hands.....and keep them staying exactly the same."

J

 

Responsibility?

Agreed, there are only two choices, tolerate it or move on. I agree in part, but I do not like the extremes your therapist goes to, absolving your wife of all responsibility. I might as well quit now, and not try and improve our relationship, improve myself. I might as well devolve into the raging, screaming, broken version of myself I was a few months ago. Why not? If it cannot be helped. It is me, trying to protect myself  

 

So ... Stay or move on. I know those are the choices. I haven't chosen. Time will tell. Neither path looks particularly palatable at the moment, but such is life.

Thank you for your thoughts, and your therapists thoughts. I am not willing to stay in an unhealthy pattern of abuse. It is not good for anyone. Ball is in his court. I will live my life. Thank you for being a sounding board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww3oFRAX0OM

Update From My Therapist

Lisa,

Since I actually saw my T today....I thought I would follow up and what he said directly related to what we were talking about,  I can just skip the lead in and tell you what he said.  I will need to include what was on my mind in particular so you know where we were when we began.

I was approaching him this topic about how to deal with the conflict that I do run into with my wife but mainly at this time...I was updating him first with my thoughts about where I am at this time.  As I said.....letting go has proven to be a huge benefit but I like you....were concerned about what to do in the future but I'm looking at this responsibility issue possibly a little differently than you are?  Possibly?

As I was saying this to him....I was mentioning that my wife has this one particular quality trait that I find highly problematic in her relationships across the board.  I recalled her mother, having this traits as I see it.....crossing over the line into delusional at times from what I saw?  She was certifiably something but officially Bi-polar amongst a host of other extremely difficult personality traits that made her nearly impossible to deal with on any reasonable level.  My T interjected right there and asked me "what would a person raised in close tight quarters with little escape from this need in particular?  Knowing her mother as you did and imagining what that would be like?

I went on to tell him a couple of quick stories relating that I had seen this quality in both her brother...and my wife and this really got to the bottom of what I was finding almost in tolerable myself.  This quality as it appears...is an almost compulsive need to retaliate against any perceived threat or offense in a very vindictive and vengeful way.  If you picture a 3 year old...who another 3 year old....walks up and tries to grab a toy out of the other ones hand...and the immediate impulse reaction of the one is to pull away and then strike or hit the other child for the offense of trying to reach out and take the toy.  It's the the knee jerk need to punish the offender...to make them pay for their offense.  This is basically judge, jury and persecutor (hangman)...all rolled into one...and justice....must be done.  There is a sense of punitive damages going on here....that is in particular.....very problematic in that...."he/she who lives by the sword...dies by the sword" in not such a good way?  Responsibility is all good and fine....but when do you cross the line between judge, jury and hangman.....and law maker yourself?  I've joked about George W. Bush here a few times with his famous "I am the decider" and that he was.  He screwed the pooch on that one "big time" so I think he makes a good argument against this myself but more over.....on a personal level....what may feel good on one hand....feels pretty bad to be on the receiving end?  If you can't convert anger into compassion and reason.....you'll just be hanging onto it and seeking revenge which is NOT GOOD....any way you slice it?

So when I'm saying responsibility here, or possibly personal responsibility to myself and no one else....I have to consider what is mine and what isn't mine....and what I should follow through on and possibly "why not" before I execute or worry about?  If it's not mine to take on and it's not mine to worry about....then why worry and why go the trouble and why let that effect you AT ALL?  When I say letting it go....I mean ALL of it...including worrying about Pay back or what is fair.  And making sure that I "learn 'em a else a lesson"....because I owe it to them for them not to get away Scott Free with a free pass?"

I have default here to Jesus...because I truly believe in everything he ever said of did?  There is a method to the madness here and I think he's the method that I have to fall back on and use as my witness here?  From all accounts....he was no wall flower or shrinking violet?  He was always pissed off at somebody and he pretty much read the riot act to those Blasphemous Sellers on the Sabbath and turning the tables on them and creating quite a scene?  He was also fairly out spoken as well ( to put it mildly lol ) and he didn't take a lot of "shit from nobody" to put it crudely...but he did it in a way where he had what I'm calling "Hand". ( taken from George in "Seinfeld" ha! ) which might be George's way of saying "power" or "control".

And in respect to "power" in itself...there is such a thing as control through power and the power is in not allowing things to effect you in the first place  which I would equate to the 3 year old who pulled back by not allowing the other child to take the toy...but pulling back or tolerating his own discomfort and not allowing that to influence what he does that goes against himself by hitting the other child back for being a "boor" and offending him/her?  The child with the Toy...has committed no crime...yet....but depending on what he does...will depend on his own integrity and maintaining his balance and not allowing the other child to have an effect on him.  It's the power of the effect this has on the first child that will determine who is responsible and who has the power or control?  Anything that happens to the second child will happen....but at the very least before the first child opens it's mouth...he's already paid the cost of his failure and he will suffer the consequences of that no matter what anyone else does?  He will be ostracized before too long...and no one will allow him/her to play in the sand box after too very long anyway?

These are the things my T and I talked about and with that....the mention of "turning the other cheek and exactly what that means in relationship to Jesus and his own behaviors and how he approached this very thing?

The bottom line in what you said I can apply here to this: there is one more choice you didn't include and it's the one I'm trying to describe here?  You only need to "tolerate"....that which is "intolerable".   You don't need to tolerate anything....when there IS nothing...to have to tolerate yourself personally?

And summation of this discussion with my T lead him to bottom line my wife and all that goes with it. This may or may not apply your H...but i'm just following through on his train of thought without all the details that I didn't include here?  This is for my wife...specifically as he said this which also registered personally from mt past and my own family...one member in particular?

"A person who has been involved at that level with a person who has a personality disorder ( her mother)...is going to be starving and dying of thirst.  Anything in the form of defensiveness from you not matter what she did...is going to register as a threat and therefore...you are the threatener to them.  In some way...you are going to be standing in the way or preventing them to get what they need"

I broke in here and reminded him about when I learned to become a lifeguard in collage and took the Red Cross course on life saving drowning victims and related to him the stories about the course and how we learned from actually practicing what it would be like to swim out and save a panic stricken drowning victim who will grab you and use you as a "floatation device" as soon as you get close enough to grab without giving it a second thought if you drown or not?  Actually....it's the most common way to drown yourself...only second to drowsing alone if no one there's to grab?  And in the course (or course).....YOU life has always got to come first...before the drowning victim and if need be...you might have to leave them and just let them drown because if you don't....you'll drown too and that much...they drilled into your head in no uncertain terms.  If need be under these extreme circumstances....you may have to punch them in the face or even take them under to get them to release you so you can simply try and save their life it can get to that place.  Nothing you do to "Talk to Them"...or reason with them is going to work under those conditions....but you can't do nothing or be afraid of them...and hurting them or worrying about etiquette is pretty much off the table? 

But what you need to have more than anything is compassion in those moments because you are going to get hurt and there are no two ways around it?  Once you commit.....it's pretty much all or nothing with the caveat....that you always come bake safe to shore...even if the victim ends of drowning and dying?  Allowing them to control you or anything they might say or do....should have no effect on you what so ever in maintaining your integrity and resolve here?  You know what you're doing.....the drowning victim does not?

For me....I've been that drowning victim before in my life...so I not only know how to swim and rescue myself...but I know how to maintain compassion for the victim in light of my own pain and the consequences of my decisions?  I can have compassion for myself...that is only equal to the compassion I can have for anyone else and that's just the way it seems to work?  ( the way the cookie crumbles lol )

In charge of "Defense"...."I am the Decider!" lol

https://youtu.be/irMeHmlxE9s 

https://youtu.be/ikMKJwbMQ_M

humor  "Judge Smails"

https://youtu.be/LQMr9DvXXF8

J

Thank you for a different perspective...

I get it, the third choice. I am a processor. Lots of things happen behind the curtain while my brain is doing other things. So I will think about this. Just like I will think about the fact that my psychologist told me not to talk to him about ADD. 

The boundary worked. He texted me last night, asking if we could meet up for coffee and an apology today. I agreed. I will always be whole heartedly willing to accept an apology and move on. Just like I will always be willing to apologize and move on. Unfortunately (and this was his ADD), he called to let me know he was coming 2 minutes before he arrived, while I was on the way to a preplanned meeting and he only had a 30 minute window. But God bless his soul for trying. We will kiss and make up tomorrow instead. 

I feel your therapist is basically telling you that you just have to accept your wife as she is because her behaviour has nothing to do with you. Which is odd. In the end, do you just become two completely dissociated individuals? 

I can hear the logic behind your therapists thought pattern. If it isn't a problem, it isn't a problem. But how does that manifest into a relationship in real life? I guess the answer to that question is to not worry about it. There is only the present. 

I still think about how it is common logic to avoid abuse. It's everywhere. All this domestic violence awareness. About how damaging it is to be involved with. I don't know. I really don't. In the end, you have to go pretty far to find an unbroken individual without any damaging learned behaviours. Maybe that is the point. 

Anyhow, thank you for your thoughts. I hope things go well with your wife. I will continue to mull this over. 

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

That powerful 4 letter word - "OOPS"

Lisa,

Hello.  Welcome to the forum.

So much can be worked through in a dialog if the response to an issue is "Oops."  

Oops, I didn't realize it was important to you.

Oops, I didn't realize you were waiting for me.

Oops, I didn't understand you meant 9 am, and not 9 pm.

Oops, oops, oops. . . . . .

From being a person who feared making mistakes - to being a person who is free from the fear of making mistakes, I know how nice it is on the Oops side of the fence.  This is where I'll stay.  This is where I'll water my grass. This is where I discovered my own humanness, and I like it !!

 

Very truly,

Liz 

 

Thank you for your kind words

I have always been that way. I understood what I knew and what I didn't know. And I was okay with not knowing, with being new at something, with failing, because I was confident in other things in my life. 

Oops, I yelled at you today. Oops, I was bitter and cruel. I am sorry. I apologize. I am likely to screw up again today and likely tomorrow as well, but I will dust myself off and stand up and try again. 

As soon as my husband says he is sorry, or even that he isn't sorry, but could see how someone in my position might be a bit irritated, I back off. I drop it. My new goal, is to not need to be understood, but to walk away. And know he still loves me, even though anyone else doing such a thing would be considered rude, inconsiderate, neglectful.

I guess I can try to understand why he would be defensive. His son always laughs when I get pissed off and says "He is used to having women mad at him". I thought he was an insensitive jerk. It's nice to know there is a softer explanation and I can be allowed to love him. 

"Oops"....Is The Goal Liz

"From being a person who feared making mistakes - to being a person who is free from the fear of making mistakes, I know how nice it is on the Oops side of the fence.  This is where I'll stay.  This is where I'll water my grass. This is where I discovered my own humanness, and I like it !!"

Yep....I have to agree Liz.   To err is Human......ADHD or not.   To "Oops"......means you're "Okay" being human ( and living in your own skin ).....ADHD or not.

Take away, insecurity.  Take away fear. Take away what other people think of you or how they judge you.  Take away defensiveness, constant need for approval, arguing about who did what, and fighting over minutia......... and what have you got left?

"Oops.......I'm sorry.....I'll try and do better next time."    And then mean it.....and actually "try to do better next time".  Not because of fear....not because of insecurity.....not because of what other people think of you and you're only doing it to avoid the fear of embarrassment or shame ie: "going away from something behavior" ( grumpy, grouchy, angry, pissed off, and "I Hate MY LIFE!!!" and "I HATE MYSELF" behavior) and acting like a complete Jerk ( Bitch or Asshole which ever you prefer? lol )

And.......  instead of "going towards something behavior" in a positive way with a positive frame of mind that doesn't really care when..... "things go wrong" or "things don't always go your way" because you're already going in the direction that you want to be going in ie: ( a positive direction with a positive frame of mind ) so when things go wrong.... they're just seen more as  "minor annoyance and inconveniences"  or minor "set backs or obstacle"  that just gets in the way sometimes as in:  "normal every day life (shit happens and even sometimes," I'm the shit that happened")

And with that....an attitude that goes along with the little voice inside your head that says..."Okay...so what, get back on the horse and try it again......."Se la Vie" )

Which goes hand in hand with being angry and disappointed for no more than 60 seconds or less.....because everyone gets angry and everyone gets disappointed and everyone has the right too have these feelings and is entitled to them including being anger and disappointment......which is also part of "being human".....

As long as you don't stay that way for longer than 60 seconds ..........then you're "doing great"!

And when you're "doing great" (including all the above).......then you're doing something aren't you?  Doing.....as the action verb in "doing great" which is what you are doing when you do this......

"Oops......my bad.....sorry".....and then follow up with continuing on the same path as in....the "same actions as before."

When you're already "doing this"....."in this way".....instead of :"doing this"......"the other way".........because the rest of your actions, along with "that attitude".....will "speak for itself".......and......"that's all you need to say"

As I was writing this.....I remembered my nick name for that "other personality" that comes out of my wife sometimes?  I've mentioned it before as "Mini Me" but before that, I use to call it....."The Other One".  So perfect!  The "Other One"...is doing it......"the other way instead". LOL

And when the "Other One" is in control......then the "Other One".....needs to do a lot of talking....as in....."Can we Talk?" (which can go on and on for an hour of listening to the "Other One" trying to rationalize her behavior and makes excuses, blame me or someone else...and expend all the defensive energy in avoidance of simply saying......

"Oops"....and just letting it go.

Good One Liz.....I saw this again and said.....yep, so true.  All of it!!!  And....it applies to everyone....ADHD or not.  I just read what Dependent On Origination said about her husband and this NOT.... being an ADHD thing.... or caused by ADHD..... or is exclusively an ADHD thing...... and she is exactly right,  It's a Human thing......either "positive" or "negative".......Correct-O-Mundo!! :)

J

Resolve

I am in that lost state too....waiting for H to initiate the resolve from the fallout last night-building up since beginning of week H being unreliable....sigh again....when others count on H he makes it for them to save face. With our girls and me he's no show with not even trying to save face...sad...18 yrs and going....Have gone through every wrong approach, reading books, praying, counseling....he remembers everyone else but us....?????? No resolution, no resolve....I'm crushed...missing out on great girls!!! Me...I do not rescue him....I stand aside and watch the struggles....did not get up this am-caused my oldest freakout.....sigh....she relies on him for ride to school....God help us....my feelings...my resolve....give it to God as much as I can....God is keeping me from getting unglued. Funny enough I could pretend all is well and we would sack up and forget....with no discussing, no resolve....what do I like? Truth, honesty, integrity....not moral high ground but when you blow it an I'm sorry, my bad, better plan for nextx resolve and move on. Stuck I feel for him...but me I like what I can do....keep out of his head-keep my head on straight, chin up....my life, it is exhausting...watching him struggle!

Thanks For Saying This MC

I understand this.....clearly. lol (I'm in that kind of mood..pay no attention my my puns lol )

I was thinking about what you said...and what I just posted yesterday about my own mother and watching her   (painfully) trying to walk down stairs.  It pained me....severely...to watch as she was doing this...ALL WRONG!! lol  And there was nothing....I could say or do...to "make her" listen to me or learn to actually ...."walk down stairs" like a normal person !! lol  "Painful"..is the perfect word to describe how I felt about watching my mother do something...that seemed so completely obvious to me...and what she was doing wrong?  From my perspective that is?

She was stuck....doing it ONE way....and it was the wrong way...only in that it caused her more problems than it did me...in how she was doing it..and she never attempted to try and do this differently?  My mother being ADHD as well?

But my mother...was not a dumb person.  On the contrary...she was very intelligent...in her own right?  But she could not walk down stairs...or do a number of things that appeared painfully obvious to me or our other family members.....and would not listen and stubbornly kept doing the same thing and never changing.

She didn't try and blame others or cast dispersions on them as so many stories I hear about "blaming" others for what was wrong with her...per se.....but what she believed...was all wrong as well and she had some "funny ideas" about things...that clearly showed...she had no idea what she was doing sometimes?  Not around the house and the things she knew how to do....more to do with her conclusions and her logic and how she came up these ideas? 

Even I saw that...and went..."yeah....not so much"....but I didn't try and fight and argue you with her until I actually needed her to help me...and she was NO HELP what so ever....when it came to asking for advise or to answer my questions on what I should do sometimes?  It was only when I didn't know what to do myself and needed her to tell me...and then I would listen and believe her....just to find out...how wrong she was after I the fact and only after I would follow her advise sometimes?  Mainly....this had to do with people, their intentions and then her conclusions where this went horribly wrong....for me...not her....when ever I forgot and I followed her in doing things she would say?

And even when I knew this...I still needed her to tell me but....I also knew better not to trust her...but I had no other options available to me at the time?  And the answers I got sometimes...would leave something to be desired?  Resolution...was what I was turning to my mother to get...and I never got it...because of how she arrived in her thinking to the questions I would have.  Not in ALL Things...just some things....that was the problem?  I never knew with her but I needed to trust her and I couldn't?  Not on things where "trusting" in that she was "trustworthy"  OMG no.  She was a Saint in that department.  I could always trust she would be there for me....that wasn't the problem that I ran into with my mother in that respect?

Can you imagine?  "Hey Mom....I need to learn how to walk down stair steps....will you show me???"  LOL!!!!  ( I'm laughing so hard right now....I can barely write!! LOL!!!! ....I need to take a moment and compose myself....pausing here..............................................) LOL

Okay I'm back.  Yes...(eh hem lol )  Saving face.  I agree.

A good case study here (that came to mind when I mentioned my "Mom".....stairs...and learning from her?  This is too good...not to include here and show how people actually deal with things and not knowing exactly what to say...and getting Stuck ...and then actually believing them when they tell you to do something?

Too funny for words...that's all I can say:)

https://youtu.be/nxxSIX3fmmo

https://youtu.be/dNTToXKgwZc

https://youtu.be/yH97lImrr0Q

J

 

LOL A Way With Words NON

It took me to say all of that...to get down to the last things I said...."actions speak louder than words."

I think you just summed this up...by saying "impact of actions".

Now why didn't I think of that!! LOL ( I guess I'm just ignorant ) But now I know and am not ignorant any more in just this one thing. One down 10,000,000 to go! lol

J

Lol back

Just wanted to say hi as I rolled on off into the evening

Who cares how one gets there, J.  One just wants to get there in one piece.

see (read) you soon.

 

Yep... Just Like Flying an Airplane NON

As they say...."Any landing ....you can walk away from....is a "good landing" when flying an airplane"!! LOL

It doesn't matter how long it takes to get there....as long as you get there...and get there... in one piece...and you can still walk away when you land!! LOL

J

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Yep

NoOrNever,

I agree !

 

Liz

Actions

NON,
I grasp your point, I do not disagree ...If Liz says that she does not feel honored by something done to her, she's describing impact of actions.  I need descriptive ACTIONS  that I have done, that I am doing - most recently - on an ongoing basis -  that I can see, that others can see, to call me out and rub my nose in them so I don't do them again. Yes, the F- word impact of actions- I have owned it and asked for her forgiveness.     She said that it is HUGE...There are miles between "Liz does not feel honored" versus "Tom dishonors Liz."      Someone Please tell me in words I can understand :   Why does Liz NOT feel honored, by the man who loves her and wants to be with her???

ADH9er

 

Hey ADH9er....

I don't know any specifics to point out.....but I would like to comment, from my own POV. This is probably going to sound insignificant......but where you say...."rub my nose in it".....THAT is something my own H would say.....and I know he means it...sarcastically.....BUT my desire is NOT to "rub his nose in it"....that is a bit on the demeaning side and it is the kind of comment he makes often. He demeans HIMSELF and I want him to STOP doing that.....and then he will say..."I am just joking". No you are not. Demeaning anyone including yourself is not joking......it often appears to be reinforcing a belief that is NOT healthy. I think a lot of people with adhd DO this.....sarcasm.....too often.....and it conveys how they really do think of themselves. My H does this too often ....and it annoys me like finger nails on a chalk board. 

HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!  :-)

No joke intended

Zapp10
No I am not joking. It is not my intent to demean myself either. I am that keyed up trying to ‘Finish’ a particular dialogue on ONE issue at at a time. I asked my DW a question about the ‘Huge Issue of Honor’ in my Plan B post.  I read Her responses to J,Rosered,NON and I don’t see anything that points to specifics. I read about ‘likes an dislikes’, “Shall we argue about the use of a word, or shall we try to dig deeper and get to the meat of the issue? “,   Did I miss it?  Then on to ‘Going Forward’. There are  a number of other ‘Issues’ contained in that post that I want to comment on, but First can we FINISH - or declare it a stalemate - or say ‘can we come back to that one later’ -   I am not a multi-tasker, especially in the Emotion Department.
      ADH9er

 

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

This is a tough spot to have a one on one dialog

Tom,

I do not feel honored.  It is a culmination of many things over a long period of time. I do not feel honored.  

I do feel comfortable writing here.  I am not trying to get people on my side, or to see my way, or to see anything but how difficult it is to communicate - and be heard.  Not Liz is right and Tom is wrong.  Keeping that in mind, in this specific thread, in these past few days, in my voice, I have mentioned 2 very specific things that did not feel honoring/respectful of me -  physical aspects like my breath and misinformation you shared about losing my menstrual cycle.  Those types of things matter to me.  I said these 2 things, specifically to you.  You did not respond nor acknowledge.  

I feel your defensiveness building in this conversation.  I am seeing you trying very hard to prove you do honor me, and whatever I am saying to you is being deflected.  

"Rubbing your nose in it" is not something I would do.  

There is a lot of time spent defining your actions, defending your actions, and I am stumbling along trying to find the exact right word to get you to hear me.  

Sincerely,

Liz 

WAIT!! STOP!!! Change Directions Here!!!

Liz....I can hear and understand "WHAT" Tom is asking for...and I hear you saying "Something" in return. He's asking for specific advise in "What to do"? And "what" you are telling him.....is "what" he is already doing? He want's information on "how to do it" to learn from and use to tell him "What to do."?

You're only telling him...on "what he is doing NOW"? You are just reporting back to him...."What he's doing"....you aren't telling him....."WHAT TO DO"...which is exactly what he's asking from you?

You are being vague and not being very specific? I was the one who brought up just "ONE" thing...."not to do".....based on what you said only about the "F" word. Like I said.....my wife doesn't have the same issue with this "word" and doesn't really care if I use it or not. This is NOT a problem for my wife at all.....but as you are saying it....it is a problem for "YOU.....specifically."

As you said this in response to the "F" word....I see and saw a problem with this on your end...as far as Tom is concerned. It has to do with this very point I was making about my wife (and/or anyone else for that matter...concerning the "F" word.....ALL other people......and YOU specifically.......

"If you don't want anyone telling you what to do, by all means, use the "F" word. However, do not surprised that conversations with that person drop-off in a hurry. Choices. "

Words and semantics or is this something else? As you said this.....WHO were you speaking to? (was it Tom...or was it Me? Or were just making a general statement about Everyone? In a general way??? ) This was very unclear to me as well?

If you were speaking directly to Tom (which was the unclear part?).....then "you were telling him" only what you will do if he uses it and that he "shouldn't be surprised if you just shut down or drop off.....JUST....from using the "F" word alone." I can't know any conversations you've had about this in the past....but as I heard you say this......that he "should just know that" and not be surprised and he should know exactly why the conversation just abruptly ended out of everything that might have been said within.....but just because of this ONE word being used.....you just stop and drop off...and he should immediately know and understand EXACTLY why?

Specifically....out of everything that was said.....he should know that this ONE word....was exactly why (out of everything said and ALL the other possibilities there could be? )

Could...would.....should....suppose to??? All based on presumption, speculation and assuming?

If you were saying that to ME...on the other hand....specifically? Without me knowing what you said about YOU personally despising the "F" word? My experience tells me....that many people including myself...use the "F" word all the time. It is part of their repertoire and is completely acceptable means of communicating with one another in normal...everyday living and with people you know or feel comfortable with. Not in a court room....not in a Church perhaps....but even in working everyday with others....the "F" word is not only acceptable...but common practice between people all the time?

So if I walked up to you...and started having a conversation with you...and you suddenly dropped off the cliff with me.....I would not only be surprised....I would think...something was wrong with either me...or you....and have no idea exactly as to why? It's just the opposite of what you said...."if you don't want people telling you what to do"??? If you said to me....."don't use the "F" word because......." and it didn't have....."I really am uncomfortable with that word and I have a negative reaction to it." Anything BUT....how that "effects YOU personally"....I'm going to go...huh? I guess? She must have a personal problem with the "F" word because....I know 1000's upon 1000's of people who don't and use it all the time and have no personal problem with it? Assuming that those people don't exist and that everyone is just like you...is assuming wrong. There are those LIKE you....and there are those "WHO aren't. And until YOU tell them that....they will never know exactly what your personal issue is with the "F" word. Specifically? And just reacting to it....or dropping off the conversation with them......:"tells them nothing...specifically?" That doesn't "tell" or "teach them" anything? And they are no better equipted to know...exactly how 'YOU PERSONALLY FEEL"...about the "F" word....because EVERYONE....IS DIFFERENT....when it comes to the "F" word...and how "THEY FEEL" about it?

Speak for yourself...and only yourself.....specifically. Don't put "words" into other peoples mouths as if.....or trying and represent ALL people...when only speaking about yourself and YOUR personal feelings?

"What honor means to me, may not 100% encapsulate what it means to someone else. If you don't want anyone telling you what to do, by all means, use the "F" word. However, do not surprised that conversations with that person drop-off in a hurry. Choices.

What honor means to me, may not 100% encapsulate what it means to someone else. If the way a word was used causes an injury, why not just say, "How is that affecting you?" "or "I am not understanding how that is affecting you?" It would get a lot further in a civil conversation that insisting you were doing nothing wrong, and were in fact doing exactly that - honoring. It would get a lot further in a civil conversation that insisting you were doing nothing wrong, and were in fact doing exactly that - honoring. "

This was confusing as well Liz? As I hear you....you were talking about you and what honors you and how the "F" word may not be "encapsulating" it meaning for someone else? If I hear you right...you were kind of saying...what I was saying? But saying it differently? It was still a little unclear in how you said it to know that it meant...the same thing as I was saying...if that is what you were saying? I'm still unsure?

But then you said this....."If the way a word was used causes an injury, why not just say, "How is that affecting you?" "or "I am not understanding how that is affecting you?"

Again...I can only here what you are saying in a general non specific way...since I'm not sure if it's Tom you are speaking to...or ME...or anyone else? I'm assuming Tom...but lets just stay with "in general" for a moment to make this easier for you to see?

Here I am....and you just dropped off and me going...huh??? Now....you're telling me or saying...that I should know this "injury" you are talking about (and I don't..... for the reasons I already said in the "my experience part and with other people? ) and you asked "Why not just say (actually....you are wanting them to "ask you" not "say") ...."How is this word affecting you".... or..."I don't know how that word is affecting you?".

And I'm still at "huh?" ...and don't even know why or what...caused you to drop off out of everything I said? How do I get from ..."huh"....."to injury"......to asking you...."How is this word affecting you"...when I don't even know what it was...that caused you to react and drop off?

You said....."don't be surprised" I am surprised!!! And I don't a clue what is going on here??

Instead of waiting or wanting him to figure all of this out. I think your initial premise is where this all went wrong. The initial premise was...."if you don't want people telling you what to do"

No ...I don't want people to tell me what to do or how to do it.....but I NEED people to tell them "how they FEEL".....personally...and specifically....about anything because I can't read minds?

Until you say these words....."You know.....I personally have a problem with the "F" word and it's an "injury" to me....every time you use it. Please.....STOP....using the "F" word....specifically for my sake....because it has a negative impact on me....and.....I Just don't like it myself. Speaking for myself...and no body else."

If the next thing out of your mouth....is not something along those lines....I will never go from..."Huh?"......to......"injury"......to asking you anything but.....what's you personal problem?

And "YOU DEFINITELY" have "ONE"....here. You just said you did. "I"...have a personal problem...with the "F" word....anytime I hear it used.....because I despise it (for what ever reason you personally have?)

All the reasons you have as to why you despise it....are pretty meaningless or useless information to another person when it comes to this. All they need to know...is the "WHAT"....which is "how YOU feel"....specifically.

You definitely......DEFINITELY!!!!! Need to tell Tom something? Not :"how to do it".....not "what he's doing".......not "what you're doing or what you will do".....but how you personally "Feel" about the "F" word....in just this ONE example of how Tom can either honor you....and not honor you.......SPECIFICALLY! STATED CLEARLY AND UPFRONT.

because?? insert.....YOUR PERSONAL FEELINGS STATED SPECIFICALLY IN UNAMBIGUOUS LANGUAGE...DIRECTLY....SUCCINCTLY....AND TO THE POINT!!!

"Dude!!!! Stop using the "F" word.....it really bothers me and it causes "injury" to me when you use it!!! It dishonors me....every time you do. Don't do it!!!!"

You HAVE TO tell him something.....and that is...... how YOU FEEL about ANYTHING like this....that is related to honoring you....or dishonoring you .....SPECIFICALLY....CASE BY CASE....POINT BY POINT......THING BY THING..... FOR EACH AND EVERYTHING.....that is PERSONAL TO YOU that you either like or don't like....by saying how it "affect you personally".

" It would get a lot further in a civil conversation that insisting you were doing nothing wrong, and were in fact doing exactly that - honoring."

Yes Liz.....that is not your personal problem if he is looking for all the ways he is honoring you...and not looking at the ways he is dishonoring you? But as I was saying this.....there are ways of "honoring someone"...and there are ways that are "dishonoring someone." BOTH.

If that were me again......going "huh"? I wouldn't know either...until you told me? Specifically and right to the point.....bottom line. Waiting for me to ask a question...I would have no idea to ask in the first place would mean....you would be waiting a very long time...in never getting what you want until YOU told me what that is? I need to know that...before I can do it...or not do it....based soly on how you feel and what specifically your personal issues and problems are. No one else matters in the rest of the world or how they feel about the "F" word for example....aside from you.....again specifically. That's all I need to know and can take it from there. Anything else you could say or add into it.....is kind of irrelevant and superfluous and just confuses the issue even more and makes it harder or more unclear and less easy to see exactly what your problem with this is?

"I FEEL THIS WAY......" speaking for yourself....and you and you alone. That simplifies this and tells Tom exactly what to do...or what not to do. It will be up to him to with that what he will once he knows the exact....."do's" and "don'ts"....laid out in front of him just like this. No discussion needed.

Telling.....not asking and saying so specifically. "Telling"...is absolutely necessary....or this will never happen.

Not "what you're doing or going to do"...and not "He's what he's doing or How to do it".....

What YOU WANT...and How YOU FEEL about it. That's all he needs to know and he can take it from there if you made yourself.....absolutely clear....point by point....thing by thing.....piece by piece....in all the things that MEAN Honor....to you specifically (or dishonor) BOTH.

No could, would, should..... or suppose to be. No assumption. No presumption. No excuses.

and it works both ways.....of course.

J

I never understood this dynamic, J is stating....

(You're only telling him...on "what he is doing NOW"? You are just reporting back to him...."What he's doing"....you aren't telling him....."WHAT TO DO"...which is exactly what he's asking from you?)

I don't understand this, or like it, but, it is true....During our time w/ the counselor when house work and chores were mentioned....When the counselor would ask...What do you want her to do? I would say...What? Just do what she see's needs done!....She wanted a list?...I was like, What?? We're falling over stuff, and you want a list???

It's like her mind is programmed to not even recognize messes, dirty refrigerator's etc......When the green ring is starting in the toilet; she don't see it, unless company is coming :)

I guess this is an ADHD related thing...and I'm sure it covers all aspects of life....

C

Near Sightedness....and Ball Juggling C

"I guess....this is an ADHD related thing......" Bingo. This is not behavioral....this is not unwillingness.....this is not IQ or intelligence.......this is pure ADHD.

What ADHD9er was saying to Liz about...not being able to "multi task"? I can say this differently. I can multi task just fine....when I don't have to think about other things. At work....I'm a great multi tasker....... I can have 9 irons in fire all at the same time...and stay on top of them and pay attention to them perfectly. Just like cooking a big dinner...with different dishes being prepared and cooked independently of each other...so they all come out done and hot...at the same time. No problem.

Don't ask me....think about...or pay attention to anything else at the same time however. If I'm cooking....I;m cooking. If I'm working....I'm working. If I'm cleaning....I'm cleaning. With in each task or job.....I may have multiple things within each task.

But don't ask me to "think" about something else....outside of each "job" or "task"....at the same time because I really can't do that very well. In fact....if that is what is required....I will screw something up or miss something.....guaranteed.

If I'm cooking.....I will walk right by...the big mess on the floor and not even notice it. But if I'm cleaning....I will notice everything on the floor and anything related but....if I have something cooking at the same time.....if will burn or boil over. One job...or one task at a time. I'm completely nearsighted and unable to see anything outside of what I am focused on...if it is not within the "job description" or "task" at hand.

So out of all the things....that my wife wants me to do for example. There's a list of things she wants...and they all fall under a "different job heading" or "task" or "job description".

Each task or job description....is a completely separate task or job at hand. And each "thing" falls under it's own group of tasks or heading (category like my work/job....or the cooking example)

Each one is "ball"...and I can only juggle a finite number of balls at one time. So...I need my wife...to tell me..."which balls" are most important to her and prioritize them for me...so I know...which ones I need to focus on...and which ones are most important to her because I can't juggle all the them at the same time ....like she can do when it comes to "what is MOST" important to her.

And because of my limitations in this area...and because I know that I'm like this...and I can't do this like every one else. I need each person ...to tell me exactly....which ones, how they like it...and what is most important in list of priority of what is most important to them....1 , 2 , 3 , 4...and so on down the list. Item by item....in list of importance.

If the expectation is that I can think about and do all of these things at once and keep track or them....I can't do that. Simply put. That asking for what I can't do and I won't even try. If left up to me....I will do them...they way I do them...and I already know....that this will be a problem.

Sooo....I need to know (in the essence of this )....what YOU'RE list of thing you want....item by item ...done by priority of importance....since I can do them all at once.....I need to know which ones to do first...so the important ones will get done first...and what is left....will be the least important ones if I don't get to all of them which is likely to happen...without that list to start from.

And during each item on the list....I will focus intensly of what I'm doing and o a great job on each item separately....one by one...down the list. One item at a time. Each item...may have mulitple irons in the fire at once.....but don't ask me to do...item 4....when I'm working on item 3.

Item 1...item 2....item 4...item 5...and so on down the list.....do not exist and I will not notice them...while I'm working on item 3. When item 3 is done...I will move onto item 4...and so on down the list......ONE...item at a time.

Do I like the fact that I can't do this like everyone else? No....I wish I could...but I can't. And because I can't.....you can't have what you want either...if this is what you want or need me to work on item 5....and then item 2...and then item 7....while I'm still on item 3.

Sorry Charlie. I don't get what I want...and neither do you. That's the way the balls bounce on the ground.....if I try and do more than one item or think about something outside of the "job description" of the thing or task I'm working on currently. Bouncing around out of order and trying to work on 1, 2 , 3 , 4 , 5, 6 , 7.......all at the same time, keep track of them...and pay attention to each one and not screw something up...forget something...or have to notice all those details at once? No way Jose. I can't do it. And if I can't do it.....YOU can't have it. It's that simple?

Not hard to understand when I put it that way...is it? Not saying you have to like it....but you have to accept it...the same as I do. I don't like it either by the way....but it's just the way it is? It's not about ...not wanting to or wishing I could...It's about ADHD...and why that is?

You don't have to know why that is either. You just have to know that it is....and accept it for what it is? Not hard to understand once you understand it. Once you know.....you can arrange yourself and modify what you want...accordingly....based on what is possible....not on what you want?

As I told my wife repeatedly....I'm not working "for' "or to prevent".... you from being disappointed...."I'm don't work FOR.....you're disappointment.....I work....to get the job done." How I get there....has to be what I can do...not doing it in a way....I can't do it...when I know up front...that I can't do it...the way you want me to. But I can do it....just like I said. One item at a time and move down the list...in list of priorities as long as my wife...tells me the list....and prioritizes them for me by list of importance. Only she can tell me what is most important to her. Everything....cannot have the same importance however. That would impossible...for ever to achive if that were the case and I had to do every ting....all at once....and at the same time.

Sorry Charlie.....No way Jose

Once I have that from her.....away I go.....nooo problem....check....check....check...check.....one item at a time. lol

J

Happens in our house a lot, too

From J:

The If I'm cooking.....I will walk right by...the big mess on the floor and not even notice it. But if I'm cleaning....I will notice everything on the floor and anything related but....if I have something cooking at the same time.....if will burn or boil over. One job...or one task at a time. I'm completely nearsighted and unable to see anything outside of what I am focused on...

All fine and good, if a person is living by himself or herself with no desire for a close relation.  The tricky part is that sometimes a partner or that pot boiling over needs attention not on the person with ADHD's schedule nor in a way convenient to the person with ADHD, and the attention needs to be real attention, so there's some retention by the person with ADHD of what's been said.  The marriage tips articles have suggestions about what to do about that, which might suit some partners.  

Workarounds for spouses' needs have to be done by both partners, not just one of them.  My husband has got to juggle the onward insistence of his mind on going its own way forward, with the fact that I'm another human being with my own mind and mental focus.  two adapt, not just one. 

 The ADHD mind is neither the big dog on the block nor is it the little pipsqueak dog that can be ignored,  

AND not because it's PC, but because its real, neither is my mind, with its attention nor are my needs the little pipsqueak runt while my husband's attention drive and ways are the big dog that only gets served.

 Saying the obvious here, J. 

That got said first because this is a forum about marriage and ADHD, not about ADHD people not in intimate relationships.  What I want to say second, in the power position here, is that what you said about ADHD focus, and what's in that ADHD focus really needs attention.  I hope people read what you wrote.  You told it from the inside.  As far as I can tell, from living daily with my husband, it's as you've said it, his attention just is.  He's not trying to be inattentive.

 I've mused a lot about what not only is not-now, but also not-real, if my husband has his attention on something else.   At least to him,  which is the only perception that he has, his own perception, whatever's going on, that boiling pot, or my need for help as I'm struggling in the front door trying not to drop a bag of groceries, as I fiddle with the key and knob, its not there if he's not attending to it.  I hope people read your description of it from the inside, and believe it just the way you said it, and not translate what you said into "he's covering for being self centered"

Can someone with adhd be lazy or selfcentered?  Sure.  Anyone can coast, or hide behind

The out of attention, doesnt exist, though doesnt come from laziness.   I hope people read what you wrote about attention, and believe it.

I do a lot of repeating, knowing that my husband may need the repetition until the time that the message becomes real to him.  

There's more to say, but that's enough from me now,  If my husband isnt attending to it, like you, it's not real.   I've got my own version of this woolgathering that I have to manage,, but it's not so absolutely not there, as it is if my husband has his mind elsewhere.

 

Edited to add:  the hardest reality for me to adjust to so far in all of this, is the fact that I don't exist, as a live reality in the moment, to my husband when, I to him am not-now, not here. Not in the way that humans  are real to me. In some ways, he's more disconnected from memory and anticipation than I am. So if I, to him, am in not-now not- here,I'm something like a ghost in his mind.  It was  hard to accept my relatve nonexistence to him during so much of the time we're together. I'm not talking about love. And I wont be argued down from what I said. 

I've watch this first hand, so I have to agree w/ you J

But, I will say that the way this works out in the living of life....First; many who struggles w/ awareness of daily responsibilities will just avoid them (i.e....LD's who drop out of school) to keep from doing the work it takes to make notes, or take medication if needed, maybe a visit to a therapist from time to time, are the willingness to set simple alarm reminders....

Secondly when the one who doesn't struggle with awareness steps up and takes on more work than they should have to....They get tired, they can also get disheartened or worse....But even if they are able to get in a good place of acceptance of the situation.  And can manage their life peacefully w/o placing expectations that are not realistic for their ADHD partner, there will still be many challenges as you know...

When the ADHD mind does not recognize the work load their partner has taken on...This is one of the Big ones....There is nothing quiet as sad as watching a grown man or women use tons on energy on useless frivolity, and ignore the real life stuff, while there spouse is worked to a frazzled state most days...Usually this type of individual thinks there spouse is boring....

If people (ADHD or not) worked as hard at awareness of the real responsibilities of daily living, as they are aware of their desire for self-entertainment....Much of the conflict in our marriages would be solved....

C

Exactly c ur self

This is the BIG one.  I agreel  It sums up my greatest sadness and disappointment and why I cannot be intimate with someone who  seems to me to be taking advantage of me while he entertains himself with frivolity and trying to be charming.  

When the ADHD mind does not recognize the work load their partner has taken on...This is one of the Big ones....There is nothing quiet as sad as watching a grown man or women use tons on energy on useless frivolity, and ignore the real life stuff, while there spouse is worked to a frazzled state most days...Usually this type of individual thinks there spouse is boring... c ur self.

After 40 years of marriage, he said to me, "What did you EVER do for me?" in anger. His head and heart seem to be involved all in an effort to entertain his own mind and making himself look good.

Jenna....

When you hear something like that from your spouse, who you've carried most of their life, because they do little to nothing.  It makes you (me) want to take a baseball bat to them...

But, in reality it is super sad:(....What that is; is a mind locked in denial (no awareness of reality)...it's mental illness that goes all the way to heart....

C

>> When the ADHD mind does

>> When the ADHD mind does not recognize the work load their partner has taken on...This is one of the Big ones....There is nothing quiet as sad as watching a grown man or women use tons on energy on useless frivolity, and ignore the real life stuff, while there spouse is worked to a frazzled state most days...Usually this type of individual thinks their spouse is boring... c ur self.>>

 

Another aspect of this is that the ADHD spouse is truly clueless as to HOW MUCH TIME the non-ADHD spouse has to spend doing the REAL WORK!

 

For years, H would want us to entertain, but he rarely helped with any of the preparations. And, when he did help, it was VERY minimally.  Because he rarely helped and did little, he had NO APPRECIATION or understanding of how much time planning and preparing for these events took.

 

I can remember a couple of times when we had invited a couple over for dinner (one time was H's cousin and spouse, another time was H's co-worker and spouse) and I worked many hours preparing ...cleaning the house, shopping for the dinner, preparing the dinner, etc.  Both times, the expected guests called very shortly before they were supposed to arrive to cancel.  Both times H took the calls.  When he told me of the cancelations, it was "nothing" to him.  I, on the other hand, was extremely annoyed because of all of my wasted efforts.  H had no empathy or understanding because he was not a part of any of the work.  He was either golfing, at the gym, or watching TV while I was doing all the prep and work.  

 

It took me awhile to realize that he truly had NO CLUE about all that goes into planning these dinner parties.  It's part of the ADHD "now and not now" phenomenon.  It's not part of their reality so they've given no thought to what the efforts would be.  A non-ADHD person could stop and imagine all the efforts.  

 

And this translates into many other things....child care, planning and preparing for trip, preparing for holidays, getting kids ready for a new school year (clothes, supplies, etc)....all of life's events....they truly have no clue.

OWW...Very familiar stories....So what to do??

Animosity? Resentment?? Anger? & Bitterness?, I've found over the past 9 years that I'm truly "human". My struggles to be the man that I felt I was, and should be, has been ever before my face...The trails of life became so intensified when they became so prevalent...When my biggest burden, became what should be my biggest blessing, my own character took a downward turn.

The man who thought his Faith, his willingness to choose to Love, his willingness to always take the heavy end would always translate into an ability to persevere under any circumstance!...I was wrong!...It's taken such a toll on me, having this person I chose to Love and be a husband to only live in want....

So what to do??....I"ve been asking myself this question for 9 years...But, have just started doing something about it the past couple...So, what have I learned to this point?? Well, it's been a process of elimination....Being a man (a way over confident fixer) I got stuck right off the bat thinking if I handled it in Love, if I was calm and sincere that I could...Do something...or....Say something to bring awareness...No...What I found out that this does is promotes enough self awareness in her to move her to action out of guilt for short periods...She knows I'm right, so she would change her behavior for a day, week, and in some things maybe a few months...But because self awareness is so painful, and because it's not a heart felt priority it don't last...

What I've learned is the capacity to have multiple priorities (spouse, children, job, house chores, hygiene etc..) and to manage them in sequence isn't there in a mind that is dominated by hyper focus...Or at least it's not natural for them....This is something completely different than just allowing something to be to big in our lives, time wasters I'll call them...This is a wiring issue....

Severe hyper focus is the main problem in relationships...Due to time, and time management being a large part of our lives, a NON will instinctively view their hyper focus minded spouse as unconcerned, or un-trust worthy...Usually anger will follow for the NON, and the ADHD minds like What??....Because even though the abandonment of responsibility happened, the ADHD mind is justifying it  because there was no intent on their part....

So where are we?? We are at.... Recognition, Acceptance & Self Awareness....Nothing about ADHD will limit me from managing my life, and loving my wife in the way I must to have peace in my life....I'm going to avoid conflict and faulty expectations at all costs, based on the facts of her way of living and the things she (by her actions) puts the highest priority on...

90% of our conflict happens when she is pursuing her top priorities, (People, Places, and Shiny Things) ....(Which happens much more frequently on trips or family functions) She has actually told me "I must put our marriage on hold" while I focus on my Sister's, Adult Children and our good times!....Do I understand this? Yes!....But, I choose to not be a part of this type Dysfunction any longer....

To put myself in unhealthy situations where I'm spending time, money and effort to just experience abandonment, and negative emotions isn't her fault, it's mine....I've told her this recently, I'm not going to share in many things any longer that has only proved to destroy any peace and unity we might have been experiencing at the time....

If I feel or desire to get away, and I go alone, I have no expectations of having a loving partner to share in life with me....This isn't designed to pressure her into guilt awareness...That doesn't last....This is wisdom that say's live with your wife in an understanding way....

We both testify to being Born again Believers in Jesus Christ....God has said how marriage will work in Genesis Chapter 3....And the Gospel follow's up on it many places....Ephesians chapter 5, 1 Peter chapter 3 1 Corinthians chapter 7 and many more....But, regardless of what God has said would be, and what would bring Glory to him. I have to want it, more than I want my own will....

So, where I'm find myself these days is to continue to walk away from my desire to Control, Fix or speak to or point out what is clear already....When all of our crutches are kicked out from under us, we will find out if we can stand....

Change only happens for any of us when we see the need, and desire it from the one who can make it happen!

C

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Where do we go from here?

O.W.W.,

There was a time in my life where doing all that stuff you mentioned -child care, planning and preparing for trip, preparing for holidays, getting kids ready for a new school year (clothes, supplies, etc)....all of life's events.... brought me the ultimate joy.  I am not sure where and when the teeter totter balance got so far out of whack, I was unable to get it back.  

For me, the struggle in all of this is:  where and when the knowledge of various aspects came into our lives, and what to do about it to get the teeter totter back into balance.

My spouse's brain was ADHD wired since he was born.  We just never knew about it till much later in life.

I purposed to be a stay-at-home Mom.  I purposed to be a wife. I loved all those aspects, the planning, the holiday decorating, the baking for birthdays, the PTA stuff, the Sunday School and VBS and Scouting and dancing lessons and Show Choir and planning family parties. . . . .I loved it all, plus more!  I loved doing the administration end of the construction business,  I loved the bookkeeping.  I loved being the emotional encourager to my spouse.  I loved cheering him on as he continued being self-employed.  

Then something shifted.  And no matter how I scrambled to get it back, I could not.  I wanted to - but could not.

Somewhere, I started to feel taken for granted.  Somewhere, I started to feel used.  Somewhere, I took on one too many responsibilities that my own sense of well-being was thrown into a tizzy.

One day, I, me, Liz, decided that I had to have value, I deserved to have things the way I liked them, too, and my own peace, joy, and happiness were just as important as my spouse's.  

And the marriage I so carefully constructed, based on every choice I made, started to crumble.

And probably the very day I determined I would no longer make choices on the basis of making/keeping my spouse happy, things have never been the same - and in some ways that is good.  It was exhausting trying to live my life and my spouse's life.  I know it was Liz who pulled the rug out (yep, I think that rug was 'Liz the Gal Who Chose to be a Door Mat' )  from under his feet.

 

Sincerely,

Liz

OWW, work load

Excellent questions. How do they NOT see how many things we were/are doing and yet take it all for granted at the same time?

      I made it a point to praise and compliment my husband on his work and even his efforts that didnt pan out. He didnt reciprocate, but DID complain when something DIDNT get done. REALLY? WHY? We all do better and feel better knowing our spouse has our back, and is supporting us. Are the people who refuse to look at their condition also the ones who also refuse to participate in relationships? SEEMS SO, so why WONT they look at it, and take a CHANCE that their lives just might get BETTER if they face their greatest fear and get effective treatment for their ADHD?

      I loved being a wife and mother, having a clean, beautiful home where we could live and have the family gather. It's stability, its nurturing, its welcoming, and its a good life........but....having my husband act like its not "enough" for him shattered me. I was faithful, loving, caring, and wanted the BEST for him.WHY WASN'T that enough? I didnt scream or yell or call him names, or put him down. I LOVED him, and it wasnt enough. I dont think anyone can fill that giant hole in him.

     Funny, now he is treating me better by me NOT living with him, than when I DID. I just dont get it. I'm of the mindset that when you marry, THAT this is the person you want to treat the BEST, not the worst. My generation seemed to fall in a mindset that society approved of, that when women marry, they get the best of life, and get a good life, but when MEN marry, it's the death of them and their freedom. WRONG THINKING and it's led to a lot of affairs with that mindset. sad

      I now feel that I wasted so many years, believing we had a future, family and stability. What is missing in my husbands head? does he feel bad? Does he feel anything? What made him so distant? Why not TELLme? why not be HONEST? What made him think he could "fake it"or "live like roomates" and just let it GO like that? just why, why, why? 

Why? why? Why? Dede...my opinion....

A mind that has no ability to communicate on an intimate level, the inability to be vulnerable, and connect with another human in a Holy union....That's Why?

Many of us can manage our life, our way, but, that way will never translate into a intimate connection....It's fear based.....If I let down my guard, (become vulnerable) I have given up my perceived Control....

C

C, yes, the perceived control

C, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's the perceived CONTROL. I wrote him a letter and told him about the passive aggressive behavior he does, with his control issues, and he didn't deny it. So, I know he KNOWS THIS, but once again, he is too AFRAID to face it himself, let alone actually TALK to me about it. I never shamed him, or made him doubt himself,  but he sure did that to ME, Was that the purpose of all this in the long run? to shame and put ME down? Does that make him feel like more of a man, or feel better about himself if he can hurt someone ELSE? 

     He has now  "moved on" to his old girlfriend. (The one he said he never fell "out of love" with, and why he never fell in love with me). and we aren't even divorced yet. This is absolutely shameful, and yet again, he doesn't see anything WRONG with this? It just blows my mind.  But, it DOES tell me how LITTLE he felt for ME, and how little he thought of me. What a sad mental state he must be in, to lose someone who loved him deeply, for a fantasy and for a sense of "control". He is going to wreck HER life also, and his along with it.

     I would still like to know why he even asked me to marry him in the FIRST place? it makes no sense, but neither do many of his other actions, and logistics. Part of me wants an ending to this, and I want him to KNOW to understand and FEEL how BAD this has hurt me. I want him to hurt and feel as bad as I have felt, but he doesn't. He just looks onward to the next shiny thing. What kind of person does this? I think he has to have a personality disorder, this isn't just ADHD, because there is so much more than that. 

Good Morning Dear Sister....

There is nothing good in man; I don't know your husband...But, I know me:)....I would suggest he has gotten his eyes off of Jesus. I feel nothing he is doing is premeditated to hurt you...He is just lost in this fleshly illusion that has enticed him to become a victim. It's telling him he is missing something GOOD... It's a lie, but, the flesh is weak...So if we aren't walking in the spirit we will fall to the deception....It's self-justification; it's what happens to me when I loose my Jesus Consciousness and turn to a fleshly Consciousness...

So I suggest you patiently pray for him, his eyes need opened. I suggest you refrain from identifying w/ him as the spurned wife. It's him who has lost his way, not you Dear Sister!...You are the daughter of the Most High God!...You are Loved!...Just keep you eyes on Jesus...Do not let his blindness become yours...

Let's us count our blessings...For they are many!

C

 

C, your post made me cry

C, thank you. It was SO nice to read some tender loving words. I havent heard or known many, and they are touching and so badly needed. It made me cry. Also, thank you for your uplifting words of faith and trust in the Lord. It is wonderful to hear these from a truly God fearing man. Thank you Brother in Christ.

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Our spouses

dedelight4,,

There was a time that I longed for my spouse to understand how I was affected by his actions - which were never intentional, yet hurt none-the-less.  Dealing with a person with poor time management, any and all difficulties with executive function, is tough.  When the other person does not see it, it is that much tougher.  

I remember way far back in our early years of marriage, as I struggled with the nonacceptance of me from his family,  I put in writing, "Can't you hear my heart hurting?"

He did not.  Or, maybe he did, yet did not know how to put any balm on that wound - a comforting word, a hug, or just a snuggle.  

Those are the sort of things I thought I had to fix.  Now, 25+ years later I realize someone cannot give to me what they do not have - the ol' "You can't get blood from a turnip."  Why?  Even though they share the same color, there is no blood in them.

Is that a slam?  No.  It is a reality.

Do I believe my spouse wants to understand?  Yes, I do.  I do not hold the answer as to how he can accomplish that end.   Wish I did.  I do not.  

Where does the answer lie?  I am not sure.  Maybe it starts at the feet of Jesus.

If he or I - in any time during out lifetime - sought to find someone to fuel our fire of anger aimed at the other person - we could each surely find lots of willing participants. I am so glad I learned way early on to not take that route.  

I can be compassionate towards the difficulty he is having.  The thing I can no longer due is make everything A.O.K. so he is happy/content/at peace.  That has to come from within.  I was never really making him anything - it just seemed that way.  

I found the skills to be content with myself  through lots of years of hard work.  Lots of self examination. Counseling.  Self Help groups.  Prayer.  And sifting my beliefs through the Holy Scriptures.  Lots of stuff I had believed, are not in there!   Lots of picking myself up by the bootstraps and moving onward to a new day.   

No where in that Book is the promise that if we are obedient, and live for Christ, I would be free from trials, tribulation, and even being thrown under the bus by those we thought were our friends.  Betrayal is ugly.  Hurtful.  Hard to believe.  My faith is what got me through all that.  I cannot prove to anyone they did the wrong thing.  I chose to walk away from the wrong things that were happening.  That is what counts to God.  What I did.  The choices I make.

Same as me dealing with this harsh stuff.  There are only so many ways I can answer the same question, before I must say, "I do not have that answer.  You will have to ask someone else to help you find it."  I know when I am feeling hurt.  I do not know what you cannot understand.  Wish I did.  Rehashing it over and over, yet again, is causing a lot of inner turmoil.  It feels a lot like the movie Groundhog Day.  I start with intentions of having a different ending, yet I see the same story repeat itself over and over.

Sincerely,

Liz

 

 

Liz....you speak..

so well for me......ESP?

My H and I had a discussion, he initiated, just a couple nights ago. It was calm. He "stated" his thoughts, beliefs and the "fact" that he loved me.Most of what he said involved "me" being the problem.( I lost heart ...AGAIN). He is "addressing" the adhd and I need to understand that. From where he stands he has given it his BEST. I believe he has, I really do. There is such a huge void between us that I cannot describe. The talk went circular and I so tried to keep it from doing that (not saying he did it)...I just can't think fast enough to talk in brief sentences. Qualifying what I believe I heard him say does NOT set well with him). It is a language I simply can't seem to learn....not his fault.

MY H is very used to me "just being" there for whatever...I have come to the conclusion........he needs a woman.........he DOES NOT need a woman who has needs also. It just doesn't seem to compute and I don't know what more to do. He wants me back downstairs.....that is NOT going to happen. My eyes are at least open now and what he wants(I have no doubt) is for things to go back to the way it has been. He has communicated nothing for me to believe he understands his part and mine.

He has made it clear through his many "lectures".....1) He CANNOT be any part of the "problem"( I'm thinking why not?) 2) We DO NOT have a problem....YOU(meaning me) DO.  Lose....lose either way...and the clock keeps ticking the time away.

The last thing I want is him hurting and sad and somber and solemn and confused.....there have been waay too many years of this turmoil. I have no answers....zip, nada, nothing. 

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

Just for Today/One Day at a Time

Zapp10,

When I look through all the struggles I had, and witness the ones I see my spouse now going through - I know one thing for sure:  As a man thinketh, so shall he be. Proverbs 27:3.  It means, however we think something is - our behavior follows after.

I apply this to my life - I believed my Dad drank because the house was never tidy enough, my siblings and I didn't behave good enough, etc. etc. etc.  I truly believed that to be a fact.  And my behavior reflected it through my scurrying around to be perfect, and try to get the house clean.  

I really had to learn I had wrong thinking.  I really had to learn that my dad drank because my dad drank.

Another rough lesson:  I could not bear the though of someone/anyone not liking me.  So I spent all my time trying to be whatever I thought they wanted me to be.  Thus, I split myself in many ways trying to please many people.

I had to learn I had wrong thinking.  I had to learn to accept that not everyone is going to like - nor agree - with me.  AND most importantly, that my very own opinion was valuable.  If the cost to be a friend with someone was giving up my own opinion, I had to learn that price was too high, and I had to let those people go.  There were a whole lot of them.  And some did not like me.  And there were some who like me for me.  Warts and all.   

I had to learn to only hold on to the lesson I learned while going through some rough periods in my life.  I had to forgive.  And in doing that, I relieved myself from the burden of the heavy weight of the emotional baggage that goes along with holding on to hurts.   The memories are still there.  The lessons are still there.  The emotional pain is gone.   A person has to look a problem right in the eye, and go through it.  Coming out the other end, you will have a victory that no devil in hell can take away from you.  Those lessons, we cannot give to anyone else.  They need to learn them on their own.  And they can.  No double about it.

I made a choice.  And I got better!

Very truly,

Liz 

 

Bravo Liz....(or is that Brav-a????) lol

"The memories are still there.  The lessons are still there.  The emotional pain is gone.   A person has to look a problem right in the eye, and go through it.  Coming out the other end, you will have a victory that no devil in hell can take away from you.  Those lessons, we cannot give to anyone else.  They need to learn them on their own.  And they can.  No double about it."

You betcha we can...the same as you.  These are my words exactly.  Different story, different players, different experience, different "wrong thinking" different...because I'm not YOU.  But I had to go "through it" and come out the other side the same as you...even though our experiences were vastly different?

The only things we share from our experiences together....is what we learned from them...and then what we did about it? And once you go through it...and learn from THAT experience.....you own it and it's your's and it belongs to you and you alone?  This is no one else's since they cannot have you're experience?

You can't teach someone this "experience."  You can't project your "experience" onto them in order for them to have it.

  It can happen however..... through osmosis since you are in a symbiotic relationship with another organism in that way...speaking in clinical terms?

What I believe fully?  Is the experience of what happens with you as a non-ADHD person....being in a relationship with an ADHD person...is what we experience and what we've experienced all our lives to a lessor degree but most importantly when we were children.  When we were children....was when we went through this ourselves and this is what we took with us...and passed along in the same way to you without intention but through osmosis in the same we it happened with us?  In theory at the very least?

And you....in respect to what I just said...are only NOW....going through what we experienced THEN....by simply being exposed to it and being in a relationship with us.  Not until...."we" go through what you described for yourself...do we "stop" doing this anymore?

I'm living proof of this myself...and I know exactly what you are talking about.  Why do I know?  Because I went through it and I own it and it belongs to me.  No need to defend against it...deny it...or believe anything different....once you know..and once you own it.  Once that happens...everything changes for the better. 

You and  I...made a choice....and "we" got better.  But "we" cannot do that for anyone else. They have to do this...for themselves and...... "go through the Wall".  There is only ONE way to go through the Wall...each person must do it...or decide not to.  There IS only one of two choices to pick from here?  Go through the Wall...and gain that experience....or don't?  Take you pick?

Or don't choose at all and stay right where you are on ...."this side" of the Wall....instead of going "through it" to the other side?  No one can take that from you once you do.  You can't....."un-ring the bell of knowledge" as they say?  And that kind of knowledge...can only be achieved....by the experience of doing it yourself.  No two ways around it I think?

Choosing...is the first step in doing here right?  You must choose first...and then  do something about it.second...in that order. Wha you can't do is do this in reverse unless it just happens by accident or it's done too you instead and it not being your choice just like when you were a kid?

What is it that we need to stop doing here once you understand it and see what this is?  I think what I said about "symbiosis"...can help explain this?  That's different again...than "osmosis" as I see it?  How we got here to begin with...is through "Osmosis" as a child to begin with.  There is no choice with Osmosis speaking in those terms

"Osmosis is the spontaneous net movement of solvent molecules through a semi-permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, in the direction that tends to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.[1][2][3] It may also be used to describe a physical process in which any solvent moves across a semipermeable membrane (permeable to the solvent, but not the solute) separating two solutions of different concentrations.[4][5] Osmosis can be made to do work.

Osmotic pressure is defined as the external pressure required to be applied so that there is no net movement of solvent across the membrane. Osmotic pressure is a colligative property, meaning that the osmotic pressure depends on the molar concentration of the solute but not on its identity.

Osmosis is a vital process in biological systems, as biological membranes are semipermeable."

Exactly. Osmosis is the mechanics or the process....of equalizing two chemicals within "a system" or a "systemic" relationship of two becoming one but still remaining separate with their own separate identity.   One...to the other...in  relationship to the point of contact or where these two chemicals interface with one another to the point   where these two chemical permeate each other but do not mix to become a new chemical compound which with people....that's not even possible?

And as a result of this process....there are 3 distinctly different possibilities in the choices you have to pick from?

Symbiosis:

Symbiosis can vary between mutualism, commensalism, and parasitism, though these grade into each other, and it is often difficult to tell which is involved in a given relationship.

In mutualism, both organisms benefit.

In commensalism, one benefits and the other is unaffected;

in parasitism, one benefits and the other is harmed.

Some of these relationships are so close that we speak of the composite of two species as one unit; for example, we speak of the composite of algae and fungi as lichens.

So...out of these 3 choices....which is the only one...that has a negative effect on the other organism and the only one you would not choose...once you know this and understand what your choices are and why?

As I see it....if you form a composite compound as with two people together  as this describes.....that would be the fourth choice here which is also not a good choice to make since and that would be co-depenent and codependence is not a good thing either? (who would choose to become a Lichen? lol )

It's not a hard decision or not hard to understand or which one not to pick out of the three?  Choosing is not doing it....but you still need to choose before you can do anything different or change it ...if this is what is needed.  That takes time an effort in order to be successful I think?

Not choosing...or not seeing these choices and not understanding WHAT your doing wrong...is the same as not choosing and not making the right choice and staying the same?

 

J

I&#039;m So Exhausted's picture

We can go forward

J,

I am unsure if all those questions marks indicate questions to me . . . . . . . or do  they signify redundant questions?

I love to read this passage from a  book I read many years ago, in my fist trips into the place of warmth and peace and contentment.

 

From “The Language of Letting Go” by Melody Beattie 

 

Picture a bridge. On one side of the bridge it is cold and dark. We stood there with others in the cold and darkness, doubled over in pain. Some of us developed an eating disorder to cope with the pain. Some drank; some used other drugs. Some of us lost control of our sexual behavior. Some of us obsessively focused on addicted people’s pain to distract us from our own pain. Many of us did both:  we developed an addictive behavior, and distracted ourselves by focusing on other addicted people. We did not know there was a bridge. We thought we were trapped on a cliff.

Then, some of us got lucky. Our eyes opened, by the Grace of God, because it was time. We saw the bridge. People told us what was on the other side: warmth, light, and healing from our pain.  We could barely glimpse or imagine this, but we decided to start the trek across the bridge anyway.

We tried to convince the people around us on the cliff that there was a bridge to a better place, but they wouldn’t listen. They couldn’t see it; they couldn’t believe. They were not ready for the journey. We decided to go alone, because we believed, and because people on the other side were cheering us onward. The closer we got to the other side, the more we could see, and feel, that what we had been promised was real. There was light, warmth, healing and love. The other side was a better place.

But now there is a bridge between us and those on the other side. Sometimes, we may be tempted to go back and drag them over with us, but it cannot be done. No one can be dragged or forced across the bridge. Each person must go at his or her own choice, when the time is right. Some will come; some will stay on the other side. The choice is not ours.

We can love them. We can wave to them. We can holler back and forth. We can cheer them on, as others have cheered and encouraged us. But we cannot make them come over with us.

If our time has come to cross the bridge, or if we have already crossed and are standing in the light and warmth, we do not have to feel guilty. It is where we were meant to be. We do not have to go back to the dark cliff because another’s time has not yet come.

The best thing we can do is stay in the light, because it reassures others that there is a better place. And if others ever do decide to cross the bridge, we will be there to cheer them on.

 

Every now and again, I know I try to convince people to come over the bridge.  And every now and again, it happens less and less often!

Very truly,

Liz 

Zapp....

I was staring at our bedroom wall in the dark around 3 AM this morning....This post of your's was working on me....I have dealt (battled it) w/ denial and defensiveness so long it as done something to me....

I think the beauty of your truthful words helped me to awaken to my own actions, my own denial....Yep Zapp!....This dialog you posted about you guy's exchange has been going on with us to long...No matter which side of it I'm on.....

I think it's time for it to end....The voice I was hearing at 3 AM was speaking humility, not for her, but for me.....I can't live in separate quarters, or have any actions that hinders or goes against what the call on my life is as a husband, no matter what comes back....

The only advice I'm going to offer her from now on...Is the same I know was speaking to me this morning...."Follow Jesus"

When I do not take up my cross and follow him daily....What I'm saying is I trust c ur self.....And I know that's a dead end.....

C

Honesty is just easier- why don't they see it?

Your comments really resonate with me-- I have been reading a of of them- but out of chronological order -sorry!

But I feel the same way about every thing you said. I have said to my ADD spouse many many times-- 'I can take bad news or a change of plans or the inevitable "Murphy's Rule" jab. But just give me the respect that I deserve and keep me on the same page. After all I am on your team-- on your side."

I just want the honesty--with all the jagged edges and dirt.  But it is the avoidance or the denial or the 'smokescreen' that he employs instead.

I have researched a lot about PA behavior which I think is a big part of the ADD/ADHD or the other way around..whatever..

It is a fear of intimacy - I always thought that meant being able to run around without clothes on in front of your spouse. Boy I was naive!!--

All this behavior  all stems back to a  childhood  with a strong overbearing mom and  an ineffective dad.  I am just tired of being the scapegoat. I don't even look like his mother!!

Also--I get it that the ADHD/ADD brain is rewired differently but just don't understand why my spouse just can't come clean and say I welcome your help in this nightmare.

I mean together as a team we could accomplish so much- but I feel like it is a car with one bad leaking tire and it affects the ride. And my husband knows  about the tire- he has just hidden the jack and the wrench and the air pump.(ok maybe unconsciously)  How can we get any where?

I just keep going back to why did we get married?

 

 

Hello Eyekahlo...

It's fear of trust, possibly coming from their childhood or other trauma and disappointments... that's what makes them hold on to all things familiar; they will get married for companionship; but they are unable to trust another person. Don't let your desire to forge ahead (For Him) become your pain....See how that happens??

You need to be at peace; so that means acceptance, even if you feel you must have boundaries....Sometimes we can become victims when our spouse's living of life weighs us down from pursuing our own dreams and desires in this life....We must not allow this mind-set to take root in us....

Sometimes we can allow their living of live to overwhelm us, (consume our focus and attention) we become an enabler out of our concerns to see a healthy existence for them. And we loose site of what is happening to us....It's dangereous.....Self-Care is a must!

We never experience the freshness and beauty of each new day, when we are dragging yesterday's baggage into it.....There is one who will free us of it...:)

Blessings....

C

"Paying Attention"....What Is "IT"?

In response to C...NON....and ADHD9er......this is really "IT".....isn't "IT"? lol (a little play on words about what "IT".....really is )

"The out of attention, doesnt exist, though doesnt come from laziness. I hope people read what you wrote about attention, and believe it."

As I said this to C.....I hope what came through mostly....was my own awareness of my own limitations and just speaking honestly and open about them....as they "as is."

I was thinking about this idea the other day in terms of "implied warranties."

Something that I have not shared here before ....but a little side note that I discovered when I was in college....kind of by accident as far as personal "strengths" meaning....."aptitudes" and/or "applied aptitude" being things that you don't have to try very hard and are "easier" than other things on a list of skill sets a person may naturally have?

Of all the things that I did really well in that was kind of surprise to me...since this was some of the hardest classes I took were Law/legal classes which I got straght A's in. Could have fooled me? lol. They were by far...the most challenging classes I took....but not in that I could not understand them. This was the key part. I didn't struggle understanding them...but yet were some of the hardest classes and yet....I get an A across the board?

Yet other classes that had to do with a different kind of attention or thinking that were less challenging classes.....I got a lower grade and were much more difficult for me to understand? Probability and Statistics was the most difficult thing for me to figure out ie: "word math problems". "Word" math problems....have always been....like part of my brain almost does not work that way at all. I have to strain and strain to get my head around the concept of applying math directly to a real world problem like this yet......I can figure this out...by using "reasoning" and "deduction" instead of "logic" but it takes me longer to do this...than if I could just "understand it" in the first place? It's not easy for me to understand...but it can be done? In fact....once I get the hang of something that requires that initial "logical" hump to get over.....when it comes time to apply it....I don't have to "think" about it anymore. Thinking....requiring "thought"...is what takes up all my RAM in the first place. Reasoning however....is easy and I can do that without any effort at all up stairs.

Logic being....the systematic approach to problem solving

Reasoning being ......the combined approaches of visual logic (esthetic reasoning )....numbers logic....and story logic....combined to come to an answer or conclusion. You have to have these 3 components.....in order to make "sense." If it doesn't make sense.....then something is missing when arriving at an answer or conclusion....which brings you too syllogism.

Syllogism, in logic, a valid deductive argument having two premises and a conclusion. The traditional type is the categorical syllogism in which both premises and the conclusion are simple declarative statements that are constructed using only three simple terms between them, each term appearing twice (as a subject and as a predicate): “All men are mortal; no gods are mortal; therefore no men are gods.” The argument in such syllogisms is valid by virtue of the fact that it would not be possible to assert the premises and to deny the conclusion without contradicting oneself.

Which brings you to the idea or concept of "thought".

"Thought"....... covert symbolic responses to stimuli that are either intrinsic (arising from within) or extrinsic (arising from the environment). Thought, or thinking, is considered to mediate between inner activity and external stimuli."

In everyday language, the word thinking covers several distinct psychological activities. It is sometimes a synonym for “tending to believe,” especially with less than full confidence (“I think that it will rain, but I am not sure”). At other times it denotes the degree of attentiveness (“I did it without thinking”) or whatever is in consciousness, especially if it refers to something outside the immediate environment

So I wondered....what is this strength and what is this weakness I have and why does it work this way? What kind of "attention" is easy...and what kind is "hard" for me?

"Thoughtfulness" or being "thoughtful" of others is not a problem for me. That parts the easy part. I can arrive at any conclusion requiring this type of attention...in a heart beat since this involves conscious "thought" and arriving at rational conclusions in terms of this process of syllogism or "deductive reasoning" to make sense of something? Being "considerate" or the act of being "inconsiderate" at times.....would be the act of not being "thoughtful" or not "thinking" in the moment for a brief period....but not as a problem in itself?

In other words....."thought -fullness" and having "conscious thought" (and having a "conscience") is one of my strengths that comes easy.

Being "considerate" or "inconsiderate"....is only dependent on the "attention" aspect which only happens when I am focused intensely or hyper-focusing on "one thing" at the exclusion of everything else.

So in terms of ADHD and it ...not being a deficit or an inability to "have attention" or "not". No "either / or" thing going on here if you will? It's the ability to redirect....the attention.....to include the "thoughtfulness"...that is either "there" or "not there"....and "doing something" you are focused on....both at the same time.

What's interesting about this....is this "thing" that keeps coming up here on this forum so often in terms of the "logic chip" that seems to be missing when trying to negotiate or argue with a lot of spouses who appear to have trouble with this kind of attention in the first place? I know this has to do with denial and defensiveness.....but at the same time.....I run into this with my wife now...and it drives me absolutely crazy sometimes with her?

It's like.....what is wrong with you??? LOL What appears so fundamentally simple to me and almost like...."why am I having to "teach" you....this "concept"..... or you are struggling to understand what being "thoughtful" or ..."Not" thoughtful is? The "IT" here if you will?

And having to explain to someone...that what they did or what they keep doing....is being "inconsiderate" or what that actually means?

The idea of what ADHD really is.....being an inability or disability in terms of redirection of attention or focus......still doesn't explain this "IT" part...and the inability or having troubles with understanding the difference between being "thoughtful" or "not"....and why something regarded by most as being "inconsiderate"....without having to explain that to them as if this is a difficult concept to understand?

Is this.....'thoughtlessness" or without the ability to have "thought" in this way? Or is it....."inattentiveness"....and without "attention"?

Or is it...and interference with the idea of "thought" as stated above as being.......

" Thought, or thinking, is considered to mediate between inner activity and external stimuli."

And thinking in terms of "inattentive type ADHD"....and ....."Hyperactive type ADHD (which would be me? )

"In-attention".....stated as without attention or thought perhaps? and.....

"Hyperactive".....stated as too much or abnormally "high"....which is a completely different way of looking at this? In terms of attention and being able to redirected in terms of "which type" or "kind".....might explain a lot in an area....I have no personal way of saying or knowing if this has anything to do with anything?

What I do know without question....is when my wife and I get into it...and I get really mad or angry with her because she has hurt me in some way emotionally speaking?
Is from her seeming inability to understand that what she did was hurtful...and me trying to argue and explain (or even....having to "teach her" ) what she did was "thoughtless" and "inconsiderate" which is why what she did.....was hurtful to me?

And her seeming....inability to problem solve....and therefore...negotiate or mediate with me? Going along with that "logic chip missing" idea and not being able to understand what she did wrong?

In my lifetime of experiences.....I've never had a problem....understanding what I did "wrong" or had to have someone explain this to me? My issues are not so much "logic based".....my issues are...."attention direction based" and not being able to "think" about too many things at the same time when I'm trying to focus on something....that requires my full attention in order to simply ...."do something". This is a "doing thing".....not a "thinking thing".....putting it in to those terms.

It still doesn't explain this "logic chip" aspect to me since that has never seemed to be my problem...all said and done? Like I said....that part...was always easy for me and one of my strengths? This is where....I have to throw my hands up...and just be Thankful for what I got and not worry about it for myself. The only thing I worry about now....is how to get this through to my wife at times....when that "logic chip:" goes missing? This aspect of having ADHD and what this is associated with....is still a mystery to me? Inattention.....vs......Hyperactive? I'm thinking it must be something to do with a "real" difference here?

As it appears to me at least? So many times (especially when my wife shuts down or cuts me off abruptly) she will say....."I don't want to talk about it"...as the first thing that comes out of her mouth.....unconsciously?

And unconsciously......I think....what she is really saying is......"I don't want to "think about it"...which would require...."problem solving" and "thoughtfulness."

If this is a weakness or is "hard to do"....then a person would tend to avoid doing it wouldn't they?

The idea of the "path of least resistance" is one you can't ignore here. What is "easy"...or what is "hard".....I think has everything to do with this and how much effort it takes to do anything?

Everyone has their strengths you know? And one of them...that is my wife's strength...is the same one that has been researched and found a strength that women tend to have over men in general as a God given gift that men don't have in the same way.

Multi-tasking.....and ordering as in "organizing" seems to be an inherent ability that women do have over men naturally. Clerical. accounting, and organizing numbers and "ordering ability".
This totally proves true between my wife and I. She is much much better at this than I am and "accounting" was the other "problem area" I had in struggling in school and not being "easy for me."

And in the same way......with men it has been determined....have more of an inherent ability in general....with spatial orientation and with spacial relationships over women in terms of mechanical aptitude and spatial awareness in terms of SI...or "situational awareness" in 3 dimensions.....X,Y, Z and intersect paths and overtake rates in terms of moment and rate of speed?

Which I have in spades...and never even have to "think" about it. It comes natrually to me...and my wife almost completely "sucks"...when it comes to this compared to me? To me...she seems like an idiot....when it comes to this from my perspective since this is soooo easy for me and takes no effort what so ever?

Ironically.....my thinking here in terms of my wife...being an "idiot" in terms....as how she appears to me at times is exactly the conclusions and where these lines....get drawn historically....in any debate about who is smarter....men or women? The answer is neither....except along just these inherent lines that were shown as strengths and weakness's as far as men and women are concerned....both....taking their own position here....and sighting as the conclusion that " it must be because "we" are smarter.....depending on which strength or weakness and who's got them?

That would be an "inference"....not a result of deductive reasoning or syllogism since it does not pass the test of logic in order to validate this? No black and while thinking here...if you use that form of reasoning? (this drives me bonkers with my wife!!!! LOL )

As just an additional thing that has been proven as differences in the genders in general...between the average man and woman and where their strengths and weakness's are....."naturally" speaking and proven to be true by the numbers across the board on average.

J

Conundrum - Town

J, may I call you ‘cousin J’ ?  lol
      This came into my head while at work today.
As the train approaches the destination, the Conductor comes over the speaker - “Welcome visitors to Conundrum-Town. Exit on the right to enter the bustling part of town known as ‘Normal-vile, exit to the left to visit ADD-berg. You will find the folks who live in either part of the city to be loving and kind, striving to achieve very much the same joys and fulfillment of their dreams. However, even though the identical Spoken language is shared by both, somehow they find great difficulty in understanding each other. It is as if the words exchanged are completely foreign to the hearer.  Some have been here a very long time struggling with their discontented, isolated existences, while others are trying to make their way to a more peaceful place of understanding. Some have individually moved away, and I have heard stories of some fortunate souls who, through diligent, deliberate story-change are able to lift themselves up together and Journey to a place of Contentment.  A word of caution, Don't get Lost ~ Many of the inhabitants are struggling to find their way Home.       
           Have a nice visit.”

J,   I do appreciate your efforts in this Quest for Mutual Understanding, as I also offer my gratitude to All Here who share their insights and wisdom.  Who doesn’t want to reside in a place of Peace ?   I am quite certain All who search here DO.  Onward...
    ADH9er

Love with a Perfect Stranger

A counselor asked me, also, what exactly do you want him to do?  My answer was, I don't want to HAVE to tell him what to do.  I want his love to come from inside of him and his care and concern to be REAL out of his heart.  I had given him lots of printed lists and verbal suggestions over the years of what he could do for US.  He has never started a conversation about these things toward me, about what I could do to help our relationship,  other than for me to "leave him be".  My answer to what, exactly, are the exact minimal actions I would like him to do is......  Let me know he cares about us, that he sees us, that he senses our family and relationship needs.  If I have to tell him exactly what to do and then police him that he is doing them, then I won't feel the love from him, I will feel like the ringmaster and he the trained seal.   A PERSON SHOULD NOT HAVE TO LAY IT OUT FOR ANOTHER PERSON TO SHOW LOVE AND CARE! If the person is not showing love and care.....they are not loving or caring. 

He seems to feel entitled....without putting out an effort on his part other than an odd mask of non-chalance.

He just doesn't seem to have that heart and soul inside him to connect and care about anything other than his own fun and distractions.  Must I tell him to look up at me and consider me and acknowledge my presence?  Must I TRAIN him to love me?  No,  that should come voluntarily from a heart inside of him. And if I don't see that happening or sense that, then it is just isn't there.

H used to repeat, thinking he was being funny, "You can't get blood out of a turnip!". I guess he was telling me more than I was willing to accept.

The advice is often given to

The advice is often given to spouses and partners of people with ADHD that we, the "nons," have to tell the person with ADHD what we want or need because the disorder prevents the person from figuring it out on his or her own. I encountered two problems with carrying out this advice. 1) Having to ask for basic wants and needs ("can you look for a job? you've been unemployed for five years and we have two children" or "can you call me occasionally when you're out of town? the last time was more than a month ago") felt humiliating. 2) Asking for these basic wants and needs rarely led to my ex-H meeting my request. I don't know if that's because I and my wants and needs were irrelevant to him or because he actually wanted to oppose me or have a conflict with me and that by knowing what I wanted and then not doing it, he could demonstrate that I was not his boss. (Note: I would describe the latter behavior on his part as passive aggressive.)

Passive Aggressive Games

Yes, these are my thoughts about this too.  There is an attitude of playing a game with H.  That "winning over" is the entire game. That marriage is just a game to play. That cooperation equals defeat.  H would like me to tell him exactly what to do and then defiantly feel in control by not doing it or by mocking it.  My part in this failed relationship is that I was taught to honor my husband, cooperate and support him, sacrificing and compromising for the sake of the greater good....he did not respect that or even notice that. Cooperation only exists when it is done by more than just one person.  When only one person is doing it, it gets turned around as codependent and enabling.

Liz and Tom, I was so busy honoring that I lost my self and he did not respect me OR honor the unified efforts of marriage.

What "Should Be" Isn't....Now What?

Jenne and Rosered.....when I was reading what you wrote....two ideas or concepts emerged in what you said.

Forget about "passive aggressive" for a moment...or even being opposition (those are behavioral not due directly but more indirectly due to ADHD I think....fair enough for now? )

But back to the source....ADHD...and the idea of "entitlement". What is "entitlement"? Thinking....something that is "owed you" without having to work for it or earn it? Things that ...."should just come to you"...without having to do anything to get it or to be earned and it not being contingent on anything else?

And then the idea of having to "tell someone what to do"? I think there is some confusion here and is not adding up? The last thing...I want or need...is for someone to "tell me what to do...or how...to do it." This absolutely does not work...in getting me to do anything and it's not what I need at all?

Telling me......"what you want" and what "you need"....is what I need to be told? That is completely different...than "telling someone what to do." They are not even related at all?

And the idea....that if ADHD weren't there in the first place....might mean...that you wouldn't need to do this for anyone else. The expectation....and possibly the "entitlement" that this "shoud just come to you" without having to say anything....I can see a problem with that right off the bat?

ADHD exists...and within that...exists things that "should not normally be." This is a fact that there is just no getting around. As I responded to C saying....."I can't do it". Doesn't mean ..."at all"....it means.....doing it differently.....which I have no choice or say in if I need to do something. As I said it to him....but I "wish" it wasn't this way.....but it is what it is....right?

So what "is" ...is not what normally "should be" and any entitlements or expectations along the lines of what ....."should be"......"can't be".....speaking in those terms. ADHD is a hard wiring thing and it cannot be changed. All that "can be done"...is work....around it otherwise...you are just beating your head against the wall and going no where. The "wall"....doesn't move...in terms of ADHD. You more around it....or you don't move at all?

And in terms of what you guys were saying about this feeling humiliating or thinking...."well...I shouldn't have to.....?"

Either anyone else accepts the fact ...that there are things that "cannot be helped" in terms of having to going around the wall......or you don't.......speaking in terms of what YOU have to do in the same way......we have to do it. If you can't follow you through the wall that you don't have...and there is an obstacle standing in our way and we walk hand in hand with you down the garden path.....each time we hit one of those walls...we have to take a detour around it and do those work around that cannot be helped....speaking again in those terms?

You can say....."I shouldn't have to take that detour....because I don't have to? It should be...that I shouldn't have to do a lot of things I have to do with you....but yet....here I am....taking a detour I would rather not take just to keep holding hands with you while we continue on down the path together?

But ....what "should be"....isn't here? And there are only two options to choose from. Either ...you accept it...or you don't. "Should be"...or any entitlements there after....are irrelevant to what is possible and what is not possible....comes in the form of what you don't have to do yourself?

You don't have to do it. You can go anywhere and be with anyone else...and probably not have to do this? Either you "want to:" or "you don't want to."....you have this option and can choose "not to" any day...or at any time....once you make that choice. Everything that comes from ....having to do with to be with your ADHD spouse....falls into this category to a certain degree.

Coming from our side of things. We have no choice. There are no other options...other than to go around the wall and do things differently sometimes. And if we have to do things differently....then to a certain degree....so you do....but only IF you decide and choose to do it....or not?

And it terms of going around these walls for someone with ADHD? They can decide not to as well...but you will never get anywhere...unless you put the effort in...and earn it. Everytime we have to go work around these things....we are "working".....around the walls and we are .....earning what ever we get from that effort. There is no entitlement and nothing just ....comes to us in this way. Either we do it....or we don't do it...that's the only choice we have and this would be true...with anyone we are with no matter where we go?

You on the other hand....can go anywhere...and not have to deal with this at all....if you choose?

I was thinking about what Jenna was saying about "game playing" and "one up man-ship" as a form of passive aggressive "manipulation" in order to "cheat"....as a way to circumvent...not going around the wall...and making YOU....go around the wall...instead of them? That would be the same thing as not doing anything and not going around the wall...and making everyone else....come to you instead? And possbily as you were saying this....."feeling entitled" to do so...because...."I can't"....or ..."it's hard? as in.....I can't "do it" AT ALL......but then not finding a different way?

Going back to what I said to C here. As I said this....."I can't do it".....the way others do it. I have to "do it" ...differently and then so do you to a certain degree to accommodate that?

That's a FAR CRY.....from saying ..."I can't do it......at all. And since "I can't do it at all....I'm not going to try?" Which means......"you have to do it....because I can't." And feel entitled to do so?

Two differen possible scenarios......both...coming from the same source? And depending on which....will determine and dictate what you do...not by choice?

So in those terms......"dictating what you do"....is the same as "telling someone what to do" which I see as the same thing?

And since you don't like it? I can tell you....I don't like this any more than you...when someone is "telling me what to do?" I don't like it ...or need that....but I'm not looking for someone to do things...for me either? I'm working....around the walls and not asking for anyone to come to me on the other side. I putting in the work and effort to do the moving and doing....I'm only needing to know what my wife needs...more as a courtesy and in an effort to accommodate her.....not her in accommodating me...if that makes sense.

In the essence of this....I moving and coming to her...and not expecting her ...to come to me? But I need to know what she wants and needs...so I can consider this...as I am working and earning my way around the walls in order to do this? I don't "have to know this"...for my sake. but I need to know this for her sake...if I'm going to know what to avoid or what to do differently in order to accomplish this and not affect her negatively?

So along with that thinking that says..."I should have to?" She doesn't have to....as long as she is Okay with what she gets at the end of this process? If she is not Okay with what she gets while I'm doing the work to get there.....she need to speak up...and not feel like she shouldn't have to....since she is shooting herself in the foot...with that kind of attitude? It's for her sake that I need to know this. The only thing I'm asking or needing from her...is to tell me so I know?

That's not asking for much....and putting the responsibility and burden of proof....on me...to move and do the work....not her in return?

But as the possible OTHER scenario? That's a horse of a different color? A completely different way of doing this....where the burden of proof, the work and the moving...all falls onto YOU...in going the other direction?

The common denominator here....is what "should be isn't"...and having to do something different which is the fixed variable...that you cannot change either for a person with ADHD...or what you have to do as a response which in terms of two people together....if you are two being one in this way....there is not choice in not doing something? I guess the question then becomes....."what"?

Telling someone what to do or how to do it....is not part of the equation here? If it is....then something else is getting in the way of this and is not from ADHD...per se? What ever it is...that is not coming to you...for what ever reason......means that person is not giving it .....and telling them to give it to you....is not the same thing as what I was saying? See what I mean?

J

My ex-h knows how to call (he

My ex-h knows how to call (he called his dad every day and had long phone conversations with a girlfriend) and how to look for work.   And I requested calls and job-searching; I did not demand them.

Semantics

J, put this into words for me. It seems like semantics.

"I need organization in the place where I live or else I am emmbarrased and feel ugly and dirty." vs "When the garage is used as a horading shed, I am upset." vs. "Get the crap out of the garage so I can put my car in there." vs "I need to know you care.  Words don't cut it with me.  Actions do."......but, the prior conversation was all about Tom wanting specific actions he can take that Liz would like.  Rosered and I are saying that we DIDN'T WANT to give specific directions....which I believe is what you are saying also. 

So, Is there anyone who would like to put to words my needs versus his capabilities/unwillingness-to-cooperate in the CORRECT form?  How does a wife get the agreement and action for a spouse to clean up when he is comforatable with utter chaos and piled-high refuse? How do my needs for cleanliness and pride be taken into consideration and see some action other than doing it myself....without touching his "stuff" which a hoarder feels is his treasure and will blow a gasket if anything is moved or trashed?

It Is What I'm Saying Too Jenna

And what NON was saying to Tom specifically about....."we can't tell you what to do either ( here on this forum) is I think the crux here? It's interesting as you are saying "Semantics"?

Here on the forum.....Semantics is all we got...right? We can prove or see actions here..so all we have is words. What you need and want is actions and the..."how do I get those" for another person that is not here to talk to directly? In context....it does sound that your H is not responding period. Either to you...or what you want?

In comparison....my wife and I don't have conflict with What we want (being different). I know what she wants....but as she says this to me.....I can't give it to her...the way she wants it? When I say jokingly....that "I am the decider"? She's decided what she wants...and HOW she wants it...both at the same time. When she tells me...how to do it.....or tells me "what to do"...that's where all the problems begin because something in that "how to part" is getting in the way of my ability to give it to her. She is setting me up to fail....within her "approach" which she is not considering on my behave because she can't. She can't really tell me...."how to do it"...or"what to do"...because she doesn't know what she's doing...in terms of me? That just it? She can't really tell me those things....as if it were her doing it.....but she tries and tries to get what she wants.....that way....which is not even possible to begin with?

Kind of like the idea of gift giving where you tell the person exactly what you want in detail...and then they give it to you....and now your not being very thoughtful?? lol How is it...that you can be thoughtful or thinking about what a person wants....when they tell you exactly how when where and every detail...and then say...."this is what I want...now go get it for me?" And then you do and then you...."didn't put any thought behind it?? " LOL

Okay....somethings got to give here right? Either you want a person to be thoughtful and put thought into it and do this...on their own? Or.....you tell that person exactly what to do and how to do it.....and not allowing any thought of their own and they are just the conduit or errand boy to go pick it up and deliver it to you ....as prescribed? That's YOU (or who ever)...doing all the thinking....for that person and that person is just there to "carry out orders?"

This was something that really really use to piss me off with my own mother. She would go buy presents.....for "US"....to give someone else and all we would do is sign the card with out name on it. She say....it was because she wanted to make sure everyone got what they wanted and she did all the Thinking for you. No creativity....no thought, of your own involved. Nothing coming....from you....it was from her...and you just signed the card?

There came a time when I was a teenager.....that I refused to even sign the card any more Really? And the weirdest thing about that was....these were relatives....where some of them, I had never even met? Cousins with names I had only heard of...and now they are magically getting gifts from me and I didn't even know who they were? What kind of phony baloney thing was that to do? I never once got anything from these unknown strangers who supposedly I was related to ...but I HAD no relationship with them what so ever...and wouldn't recognize them if I saw them on the street unless they were introduced to them? It was "fake" and wasn't even "real"? And my mother...never explained what the Hell this was all about....but I could see how absolutely "fabricated" this was...and wanted nothing to do with it? That's all I knew at the time.

It was "fake" and "phony baloney"...and I didn't like it and wanted her to stop doing it? It's like someone making a "contract" and then saying here....sign this.....and now somehow, somewhere....you are now indebted to someone...you don't even know in this weird gift exchange program....where you send them one....but they never send you one in return?

Like what the Hell? What is this all about? I had all these people who were "God parents" and "cousins" and family members who I am related too....that are out there somewhere and I have never met, talked or even seen what they look like and have nothing to do with aside from sharing the same blood line? There IS no relationship....but it's like you are "pretending" you have one....like some "imaginary friend"?

It was bizarre...that's all I can say? I don't know if this is even related to what we are talking about....but there is something to this....that has the same flavor or feeling of what my wife does with me in the same way. Thinking for you....and then complaining that you never "think of her"?

You can't have it both ways. Either you "allow things to come to you"...or you "don't." Not "allowing" things to come to you..instead of forcing the issue for your own reasons are just that....."your own reasons".....not the other persons reasons.... thoughts......ideas..... or any actions you want from them....if they are just following the directions on the box...and then coming to you and saying...."here you go. Now are you happy?"

I don't think so? It doesn't work like that? What is this showing or proving when you do this? And what the Hell was that all about in the same with my mother? I've got this strange feeling...that these things ARE related and they are equally impossible...to try and get two things at the same time....to mean one thing only to try and prove something?

Bizarre....that's all I can say?

J

Jenna...

It can be many things...."I understand your request"....But, I'm not going to do it....because....I'm showing you who is Boss!....Or, I just disagree with you and I like it like it is...Or, (and even though I don't know anyone here personally, I think if it's what I've experienced this is closer to the answer).....(attachment and association)....What you are looking at piled in the garage is who I am.  Your request for me to move it, and your dislike for it, tells me you don't accept me....

C

And your insistence on

And your insistence on encrouching on the total square footage of a once lovely 2.5 attached car garage says to me you don't see me or consider my needs or my space.

And my fighting for my space and not wanting to clean it out FOR you tells you I am a person with worth.  My having standards is who I am. 

Yes C.......This is "IT" (again lol )

"(attachment and association)....What you are looking at piled in the garage is who I am. Your request for me to move it, and your dislike for it, tells me you don't accept me...."

Meaning???? What??? ( what you talk a' bout ? Me Love you....long time?) Is that a statement...or a question....or a statement / question? How do I respond to that? lol

I'm sorry....lets try that again???? "what ARE you taking about....I love you very much...and always have??"

There...is that better? lol ( Pigeon English....just an example of how meaning and things that are said...can get misconstrued if things are not being said directly and clearly and being up front and honest?

"FEELINGS" ...... "No one is going to know what your feelings are.....unless you say ...what they are?"

And that right there....is the problem I think? C...you were the one who introduced me to "Alexithymia" ie: "without words for feelings".....translated as the "literal meaning" of this affliction and I don't personally think....it has to get to that level to be a problem either? Thinking for people with ADHD.....this can be difficult for many if not all of us who are not good with "feelings" and expressing them?

I think...women in general...are much better at doing this as ADHD9er was also mentioning about men and being "touchy feely"....using that term to describe being in touch with you "feelings"....so you can actually tell another person....what they are?

I also think this is a skill you either learn..or don't learn to do and I know speaking for myself...this was not something you were "taught" as a boy and man living in a different time and a different "era". I think when it comes to this....what it sounds like...is just like "Pigeon English" when it comes to actually saying....what your feelings are?

This goes straight back to my mother....doing the "Thinking and feeling" for us growing up? How in the world ...are you going to actually "practice"...thinking and feeling about another person...if you've got someone else...doing that "for you?"

I wonder if this is from child rearing and raising children and from the role of being a mother to a small child who can't do this for themselves and in this thinking itself....it starts out as trying to set an example to follow and then something goes horribly wrong??

I can tell you without any hesitation on my end.....what went wrong with this in my house and from my experience? Setting an example is great and a way of "showing" someone...."how to do this" in terms of physical examples of actions?

But it neglects to do the most important part just to begin with? To actually "say"...this is what you are doing...and just assuming that "modeling" or "setting an example".....in this way...that it's actually teaching you the actual thing....you are trying to teach someone?

And assuming you are (or thinking this is what you're doing)....without actually having to "say"...this is what your doing and "why?"

And then....assuming..... that the person on the receiving end of this kind of "lesson".....understands this the same as you....and knows this is what you are doing.....and knows what you are trying to "say"....and is actually on board with you on this..... and on the same page as you are....and has any idea of any of any of all these "assumptions".......without YOU....actually having to say anything? Except....."here, let me show you someth'in"

And then when they're done "showing you"..... you going...."Huh? What you talk a'bout? "

What I've come to understand my wife does....is "express her feelings"...by showing them to me...in the form of "opinion"....or by just reacting "emotionally" and getting upset?

Think about it? How old were we....when we actually learned to talk....instead of laying there balling our eyes out...because we need to "poop"...or......"be fed".....or.... "have our diapers changed" but can't actually.....say the words or the ability to tell our mothers how we "feel"......about anything at the time?

All little babies do...is just scream and cry as the only way to communicate that they need something? And then later....add in having temper tantrums....when they didn't get what they want or are disappointed? Crying...and anger....and "displays" and "showing" or emoting your feelings....but not actually "saying" what those feelings are...and what they want from you once they do this? With little babies.....this is how it works? And the mothers are left...to figure this out...for the little baby since they are not able to do this....for themselves?

In both cases.....mother and child.......this should end...as soon as the damn kid can learn to talk since a grown adult woman....has the ability to "talk" and say what her feelings are? Or should be able to....you'd think?

My mother for example...."talked around " her feelings...but didn't actually say what they were. She "set examples"....."made examples"...and everything was done in this cryptic way of communicating which is not really saying anything.....it's just speaking in terms of "associations" and "examples" and never really saying what she felt about anything? Everything was a close "approximation" as to what she was trying to say....by using every method of example or comparison she could come up with.....everything...but actually saying what she really felt or thought about things on a personal level?

And why was that I might ask? Because....my Dad made it clear....that those "pesky feelings" and all that "touchy feely" stuff...was not allowed!!!

"No feelings allowed" !! I don't like them...and they make me uncomfortable so...that "means"....don't have feelings unless I say it's all right...and it's never all right....so that means.....don't have feelings (or at least....keep them to yourself ? "

On the other hand....."opinions...are perfectly acceptable? Not only acceptable....."let me tell you or thing or two...................." LOL "And when I'm done with giving you my opinion....I'll show you a thing or two...or three.....or four.......I'll learn ya....and put a hurt'in on ya while I'm at it!!"

And that's not expressing your feelings? Albiet.....the worst way possible if you want anyone to ever understand you? LOL

"Who learned you? Me Love you long time!!!! What you talk a'bout???? No one ever understand me? Me not understand!!! "

And you wonder why? lol

J

J you got me thinking...

This goes straight back to my mother....doing the "Thinking and feeling" for us growing up? How in the world ...are you going to actually "practice"...thinking and feeling about another person...if you've got someone else...doing that "for you?" - j

Can you put an example how she did this?  I have a feeling that my mother did the same thing...although I can't remember how.  I am trying to work out some things about my upbringing and those things that need work are the things that we deny or don't see.....or so a counselor once told me.  We can't work on what we don't know or can't accept.  So, even though I don't like to blame the mothers, I am curious about this thought because there is a kernel of something familiar here and I can't put my finger on it.  I will try:  "Don't cry. Don't be a baby. Stop your balling. You are Lucky - Kids in China don't have enough food to eat. Were you born in a barn? You have nothing to complain about. If you are going to be mad, go away from the table. You think YOU got it bad?" Heard lots of times....but doesn't seem to be what you are getting at... Can you give an example of your parents not permitting feelings/thoughts?  

I know someone whose mother I never met but the stories she tells of her mother are music to my ears when she talks about how her mother handled things...especially difficult things....sitting down and talking about options and the natural consequences of those decisions and asking for the child's input....What a concept rather than saying "Don't you dare!"!

My H is ALWAYS telling me how to think and how to feel.  I will just say something small like yesterday I said, "It has gotten humid in the house upstairs." He said before I was even done with saying that small sentence. He responded with, "NO IT'S NOT.  There is a cool breeze outside."   My next sentence was going to be,  "I think I will open all the windows."   But I have been noticing things I never noticed before...    He almost always responds to my thoughts or feelings with the first word being "No" and a contrary debate why what I think or how I feel is not reality.

Any thoughts?

Oh Yeah....Jenna LOL

I can certainly help you out here. lol

1) "You need a coat!! Don't leave without a coat!!! Wait You need a coat!!! It's cold outside"

It'd be like 65 degree outside and I would be walking or riding my bike. To this day....68 degrees is perfect indoors and 70 degrees is perfect outdoors for me. It doesn't get more perfect than that for me? T shirt....even shorts. That would be...if I was sitting still right? If I'm doing anything at all....even walking....I will start to over heat and sweat if I'm wearing anything but a T shirt right?

My mom was so insistent that I take a coat....I would end up leaving my coat everywhere since I was always carrying it around and never wearing it? lol I'd set my coats down....at a friends house..or at school or on the ground? I don't know how many times...I had to go retrieve my coat because....I never wore one but had one with me...because my mom insisted I "take a coat...it's cold outside!!! "

Here's the deal on that one. She grew up...in the desert in Southern California where the average temperature is 80 degrees? But we lived 1000 miles north of there where the average temp stays between 55 and 65 degrees?

Do you think....I was use to that and I really needed a coat when it's 65 degrees? NO!!! LOL
Do you think....I knew....when I was hot...and when I was cold and if I needed a coat or not? YES!!

Not that hard to figure out? LOL At the worst case scenario if it was 55 and I was outside and running around....I was just right. At 65 degrees...and I was running around which was all the time always...I was actually HOT...not cold? Where do you think my coat was all those times? On the ground....or in my hand ......or left behind because I forgot about it since I NEVER wore a coat but......"you need a coat...it's cold outside???"

According to whom?? LOL And based on what? YOU and your cold blooded....raised in the desert in Southern California body and based on......where we didn't live!! LOL

And do you think she ever listened or understood this after 1000 times saying it? NOOOOO! lol

She was cold.....so I must be too? There's one example...and I fought her over this until I finally refused to take a coat with me anymore!! It didn't stop her from trying though? She was relentless with the coats!! lol

2) "you need to put that in a sack" "Little sacks". Everything needs to be in a little sack. lol My friends coined that one when I was really young. Everything needed to be in a sack, inside a sack, inside another sack. "Little sacks" everywhere. She was possessed! lol

"you need to put that in a sack" LOL I got teased in fact...when I had a "sack lunch" and had "little sacks:" scattered all around me...while every one else just had maybe two..... I had more like 10. lol It was so embarrassing! lol What the Hell? The "Glad" company saw my mom coming...I can tell you! lol She was on their "preferred" customer Hall of Fame list. They were very Glad! (sorry...getting carried away there lol )

My Mom...never got with the program that...since I was a guy...and didn't carry a purse....I put things inside things called "pockets?". They come free of charge...with every pair of Levis you buy!! LOL

3) Playing music while working. "You don't need music while you work! This isn't fun and games time!!"

So listening to music...while you are up on a ladder painting the house....is a bad thing? LOL Says whom again?

I already told the story of my Grandfather...who would sneak into the garage every Sunday to listen to his favorite Symphony program inside the car...so my Grandmother...couldn't catch him ....goofing off! After about the 4th or 5th battery had died from him doing this...and since my Grandparents drove probably to church and back on Sundays only....my Grandmother was going "straight to top" and file a formal complaint against the battery manufacture for making faulty batteries that don't last! lol Well ...they do if you don' sit and listen to 2 hours on the car radio while sitting in the garage each Sunday...but my Grandmother was not aware of that part? Why?

"You don't need music while you work. This isn't fun and games kiddo. See?"

( "mauwh..mauwh...you never gonna catch me coppa....See?" lol )

That was my Grandfather's (and my response) to that one! LOL

3) (my most hated and most infuriating one of all ) "Say.....(insert whatever she wanted you to say)....anytime you were going to "talk" to anyone or anybody ...about a problem." LOL

I use to SCREAM....at my mother....every time she said that. And she said that....every time I was going anywhere...to "ask something..."..."confront someone" about a problem....or "go anywhere" which would require some kind of permission or courtesy in order to be approved or get a pass to do something by an adult. "Say....(this/insert what she wanted you to say here ) "

ERRRRRRR!!! "Speak for yourself....God Damn it!!!!" That was my usual...exasperated response....after 10,000 times or more!!! LOL Did she ever stop? What do you think? LOL I really didn't enjoy...yelling at my mom like that? But after 10,000 times with no end in sight....you might say....."it got really OLD!!"

4) "You must call any adult..."Mr"...or ..."Mrs"...." Yet ...my best friends Mom was called "Gladys" by the two brothers (and myself...since I was like part of their family with too from a very early age)

"Gladys"......"Gladdy"...."Freaky"......or .......even "Freaky Bitch" (later when we were "teen agers"....which was their way of saying "NO" to "Gladys"...when she got on the war path!! LOL

"Gladdy" just scowled and squinted....which was her way of saying...." I'm on to you guys....I'll be watching you" (with two fingers alternating between her eyes and you lol )

When I was like....25 or something....I went next door to ask our neighbor something and came back and said...."Sues not home...I go check back later."

"That's MRS L......MRS!!!"

"Ah......yeah right Mom.....what ever you say" (eye roll )

Any time the first words start with "YOU" and end with some kind of instruction or telling YOU what:

"you SHOULD do"......."you MUST do"....."you need....(something as in a coat lol )"....or ..."telling you how you should feel or behave"...or ...."telling YOU....what you are doing wrong...or how you SHOULD do "IT"......"

That's a huge red flag...that this person is "thinking for you"....as if....they were you?"

Or....you are going along and minding your own business of doing something...and they walk in...and stop you to correct you...or...." tell you how.....your doing it wrong" And feel compelled to then...show you how to do it......" but you neither needed them to...or wanted them to do this for you since...this is just unsolicited help.... and is really none of their business? Then I think...they are thinking and feeling for you.....as if, they were you?

The thing is here Jenna.....in my moms case...she was still answering to her Mom...and all those crazy ideas and things she use to tell her which she never questioned...and just did those things as she was told because ...that's what "all good girls are suppose to do"....right?

The problem for me was....I was not a "girl" and was not necessarily "good"....since I didn't do what my mom "told me".....and knew when I was HOT or Cold ...and knew the difference despite what my Mom....thought I was? LOL

J

J... my thoughts....

In my opinion, many Mothers do not know how and when to stop Mothering and when or how to push their children out of the nest....(Fly or get eaten)....Just like many adult Son's and daughters, do not know how or when to take on adult responsibilities....(I'm not ready to grow up, so I'm just going to hang out here and party)....Just reading your story and trying to ID w/ it...I realized I cannot....When I was 18 I went to work full time, By the time I was 19 I was living alone. Married at 20....By the time I was 25 I had been working for the same employer for 7.5 years...Been married 5 years and had two little girls and a mortgage....

As a grown man, I would not have done well being instructed by my Mother....Not that I wouldn't respect her and not that she would not make solid points...It's just not the way life is suppose to work, once you are an adult.... (In my opinion)....Learning by trial and error can be painful, but, it sticks for a life time:)

c

When were you out on your own?

Interesting, C.

What you wrote brings up a question about us all:  when were you out on your own?   Meaning: away from living with parents, no parental safety net if you fouled up

It was 18 for me. 

 

now

18 for me also....

Supermom! to the rescue!

Now I know why there was something in your post that sounded familiar but I couldn't put a finger on it.  I am the mother and grandmother who is saying, "Here is a jacket. Turn the TV off while you are doing homework." ....etc.

Unsolicited Helping.  Yup.  When they are young, this is a good thing.  When they are older....very bad.  My granddaughters are 5 and 8.  It's time to stop thinking for them.  My mother would always make us "wear a scarf on your head or you will catch a cold."  We would take one along and, like you said, lose it because we would take it off right away when she wasn't looking.  

I was not allowed to "talk back" to my parents.  We just did whatever they told us to do.  While living with them I didn't verbally rebel.  But after I moved out, wow, look out, I rebelled in my own way by enjoying the freedom to feel and think and act like a girl gone wild.   I am glad you wrote this response. It is a reminder for me to STOP giving unrequested assistance to children who are growing up. 

I have made it a practice to not give directives or shame or guilt or advice to my grown sons....even when they ask for it.  I have learned in my older years from my friend, how to give audience to someone who is going through a difficult time but not to tell them how to think or feel.  Respect other people's feelings.  

I have another friend who, we have discovered in our later years, that we have been too emotional our entire lives.  We remind each other that we don't have to FEEL so much.  We can just "Let it Go" and drop it more often.  

Ahhhh.  Self awareness.   I have been in your mother's shoes: over-concerned-wanting-to-be-too-good-without-thinking-of-the-long-term-child's-growth-integrity-and-desire-to-be-self-sufficient. I think back with embarassment of myself for my child's benefit of times when I should have let my sons "go through it and make it with a little pain" rather than me trying to be the swashbuckling saver of the day for their comfort. 

What is it with some of us women/mothers/wives?  Why did we find ourselves overachieving in a bad way?  Enabling and servicing our spouses and children?  I certainly was not that way before I was married.  I was the opposite.  Sort of aloof and independent and slightly clueless about maturity.

I am just rambling.  J, if you want a back and forth, trying to figure your mother out, I might be able to respond to your questions and venting so you might be able to understand her.  I would learn something too.  Maybe I need to apologize to my sons for me trying to be supermom.  

Funny Thing.....And Not Uncommon

Jenna.....my middle oldest sister....was having a lot of problems with her two boys as they were growing up being rebellious. I only heard bits and peices since they live out of state. But once when she came home to visit...she was frustrated and telling me she was just not understanding this veery well. And then she said...."you know...I'm just trying to be Supermom you know....."

Actually ....I don't know....but she used that term herself. You and her...could relate together on that one I'm sure?

And responding to what C said about himself by the time he was 25 and his own life experience by that time? That time I went next door to talk to my neighbor (named Sue ) was about the same time..I owned my own business....had been out of the house since I was 18...and lived in my own place (shared with a college friend) that we owned together.

And I'm not old enough...or adult enough...to call the neighbor Sue....instead of Mrs L anymore?

In fact....my swim coach...who I told how I became a coach later and we sat together (now) on the same side of things? I kept calling him Mr H...and he finally said..."you know....that sounds really disrespectful to call me MR H......stop doing that or I'm going to get mad at you." (just kidding but making a point)

I told him....if was really uncomfortable calling him by his first name (Rod) instead of Mr H since he was just like my Dad in the way?

He said....."Well.....call me Mr Rod....at the very least will you" Again...just kidding. But I ended up calling him Mr Rod from then on. He liked that one and it caught on. Other adult former swimmers started calling him Mr Rod too. lol

Be careful what you ask for. LOL

J

Donald Trump vs The Beverly Hillbillies

This just popped into my head......and it's too good not to write it down. This is somewhat related to this top down approach to problem solving.

As has been in news of late. Donald Trumps idea of building a big concrete wall across the southern boarder of the US...to stem the flow of illegals crossing the border? And how....even though he's not even elected...he's decided to try and charge Mexico with part of the 20+ billion dollars to pay for this "boat anchor" of an idea...and how they are pretty much saying...forget you already? Thinking...is this really going to keep people out? As if...there are not more than one way to get into the country...and walking across the border only accounts for a fraction of those who end up here? Mostly....they just come across legally with a work permit...and then stay longer than they should. Calmly,walking right in with open arms to work....legally...and then become illegal later?

I suddenly was reminded of one of my favorite episodes of the Beverly Hillbillies when Phil Silvers....( a con-artist )...is attempting to bilk Jed out of his money. As he proposed to Jed....he was going to drill a giant hole into the Sierra Madre Mountains...and install a huge fan to blow all the smog out of LA...and wants Jed to invest and become a "philanthropist" (while Jed is struggling with this concept and is trying to pronounce this word correctly at the same time!) LOL

I don't know if this is really related exactly...but it sure sounded familiar to this wall and Trumps idea doesn't it? Trying to physically control people....by building a wall to do it...and then blaming the entire country of Mexico...because......this sounds like a good idea? As if.....there's only one way to do something...and this one seems like it should work? Really?

I think Phil Silvers idea....actually sounded more feasible....at the same time....is just as ridiculous...which is why they put it into the script of the Beverly Hillbillies TV comedy show.

As they say....you can't "sweep the ocean....back into the sea with a broom?" lol

J

Just in force the Law's we already have in place....

It's really sad what America has come to at the political level....I'm no fan of either of the candidates.  I say what good are laws if we're not going to enforce them??....Try walking into France and Germany illegally and see what happens to....

The problem just didn't start, and it want be corrected in 4 years.....if ever...But, it will take some one w/ a greater sense of ethics and a greater Love and respect for the price of our freedom than we've had in Washington DC for the past long while....

C

I'm With You There C

I'm not really liking the ideas of either candidate? Neither one is all that great...and yet....these are the only two options we are given to choose from. How about....another option....PLEASE!!!???

The problem JUST....didn't start (in 4 years?). And the solution cannot be corrected any faster than the problem existed in the first place or why it happened by putting a "BAND AIDE" on the problem...and calling it "GOOD". That's the same thing as putting a "BOW" on it ....and saying it's better than before by the way it LOOKS on the outside?

If you've got engine trouble with your car...and you put a new paint job on it....the car won't run any better....even if it's not an "eye sore" anymore? What it LOOKS like...is irrelevant if the car won't even drive?

J

Yep J...Not grouping all folks, but, I've seen a trend....

In my opinion the baby boomer's were the last generation across the board that was taught life is about hard work and being responsible....It's been on a downward slide of entitlement every since....It's amazing how prosperity can wipe out thankfulness.....

C

Jenna....Best Intentions Gone Bad and Wasted Energy

Something you said Jenna about yourself in a very candid statement you made without your guard down and you were just speaking open and honestly about yourself was really, really poignant and profound......

"What is it with some of us women/mothers/wives? Why did we find ourselves overachieving in a bad way? Enabling and servicing our spouses and children? I certainly was not that way before I was married. I was the opposite. Sort of aloof and independent and slightly clueless about maturity."

Instead of blaming this on anything else but yourself....in the same way that I'm trying to do with my ADHD symptoms (and not being a victim ).....I can say a couple of things I've realized about myself....which I'm sure I picked up directly from my own mother. These are "tendencies" we have to behave in certain ways...which play out differently for each person ....yet had a connection even if indirectly to something else? This indirect connection idea...is really worth exploring I think?

You can't blame "indirect connections" ....."directly"....as we tend to do which is exactly the problem in the first place when ever we do this.....

But....."indirect connections" are the source of "influence"...and "influence" itself...can be as much as a problem....if not more....... when it comes to motivations and awareness when it has to with "intentions."

As my T has told me......"stubbornness".....is "persistence" gone bad?

"Persistence"....when applied correctly....is a "good thing". You can't argue with this....but that's half the problem in itself? If you are being "stubborn"...but believe you are being "persistent" instead.....you will try and argue being "stubborn" as a "good thing"...when in reality....it's "bad thing"....but you are not aware or understanding the difference?

My ADHD symptoms of "impulsiveness"....may look like a lot of things depending on what you apply it too.

My OCD tendencies will make normal "persistence" go into "stubbornly" doing something repeatedly...and me telling myself it's because of something else instead?

In order to correct the problems that come from these two things (which are ALL about me and no one else ) I have to find the source of the problem...and the things that influence my decision making process in order to change this.

"Change" is the only thing you have in your own power to do.....you cannot make someone else "change" unless they want to or decide to do it. Controlling...or attempting to "control" anybody....is where this goes wrong. You can influence others by persuasion or making a good case or argument....you cannot force or make someone do anything unless you are an active member of the "Police Force" and have the power to arrest someone...in order to make them stop doing something.

This is what came to mind here with "intentions" gone bad. To sum this up simply in what you were saying or asking about?

What is "help" anyway? "I need help?" "Help me please"? Those are statements a person would actually make....if they needed help? And if your of the mind...to rescue them or help them....you would be a person who would volunteer to do so wouldn't you?

Going in the wrong direction.....as a "vigilante"...or.....a "police" officer or "agent" in that way....they would say....."You need help...and I'm just the one to give it to you" That's a form of "volunteering" too....which is "unsolicited".....not "asked for"....and possibly "unwanted"...based on the assumption......that you were "right" in the first place? "This person needs help.....I can tell without asking them....."......quick Clark Kent.....run to the nearest telephone booth...and become Supermommy!! Ta DA!!!

A "vigilante"....a "tattle tail".....or a "Policing Force Agent"...is not there to influence or persuade others to do anything. The actions from this kind of "intention"...is to "coerse" and "control"...and to "make something happen" by "force"...... not to "influence or persuade" and let the other person "choose" what they will do and decide for themselves the best or most appropriate action to take for themselves.

This kind of influence.....by design......."Takes" control away from others by forcing them to do what the "will" that person wants, needs.....which may or not be....what the other person would even choose for themselves?

Choice is good. No choice is bad? "Taking control" away from someone...is taking their choice at the same time isn't it? And in the same way as "persistence" gone bad when it turns into being "stubborn"?

"Mothering"...gone bad....is becoming or turning into "policing" and becoming a "police agent" instead.

Famous "Police Agencies" in history to name just a few:

- Nazi "SS" Gestapo
- Russian "KGB"
- CIA...Central Intelligence Agency
- Local City and State Police Officers

Thinking along these lines...the same as I'm doing with my ADHD symptoms and not passing the Buck when I see my tendencies and admit and know they are there influencing my actions and decisions....

It makes it easier to see the roles and how these things change...and what "we" tell ourselves "what we are doing ourselves" and use any argument or reason to either change or not change by telling our selves we are "right"...and the other person is "wrong?"

Can you honestly say....that being a "Police Agent" or playing that role in a relationship or as a mother.....is a "good thing" to be doing?

You can call me "yo mammie"...if you want'a.....it still doesn't mean it's true?

You can blame anything as the reason "why" this happens...but if you are going take full responsibility and accountability for yourself...if you are becoming a "Police Force of One"...instead of a "mother"....speaking in those terms...this is no ones "fault" but your own if this is what you are doing right?

You...can only "change" you ....once you know what your doing and what you need to change"?

That looking at the problem....from the "Bottom up".....instead of from the "Top down" in trying to determine what YOU should be doing and what YOU need to change...

"BOTTOM LINE".....the "Buck Stops Here" No excuses....no victims or perpetrators...no accusations....no one else to blame or at fault for anything except YOU and YOU alone for what ever problems YOU have or are having right now. Many times.... the problem for anyone else is not "what you're doing".....but "how you do it"....at the end of the day?

J

Rosered....

(The advice is often given to spouses and partners of people with ADHD that we, the "nons," have to tell the person with ADHD what we want or need because the disorder prevents the person from figuring it out on his or her own.)

I don't believe this one minute...Ask most people who are married to an ADHD minded person if when they were dating and in the first year or years of their marriage did they have to point out their needs to them....I think most will tell you; their spouse had no problem showing affection or attention....Never blame bordom and lack of interest on "I can't help it"...That's a cope out....

They were fine when we meet them and they will be fine if we seperate from them....

C

 

Interesting C ur self.....

that you were thinking of something I wrote.....because...this post in which you responded to Rosered is one that I have not been able to get out of MY mind.

Somewhere along the way.....we grow up (at least we should). The timing of that may not be in sync with each other BUT the inevitability of it is a reality? I look back and know I was immature ....I don't beat myself up for NOT knowing something. What I have come to realize is my H (an honestly good man) did not WANT to grow up(adhd effect?). IF this is related to adhd in some way shape or manner......then he should be able to process through this. He SHOULD be able to do a lot of things BETTER (NOT perfect). You are right..."I can't help it" and "it's just who I am" are cop outs. THEY are well aware of the choice they are making........they don't say " I don't want to grow up" because THEY KNOW how absolutely awful that sounds.....even to themselves. Does adhd really interfere with COMPREHENSION? My understanding is they are well able minded to do this.

What my H and I have as a marriage is NO example of what GOD had in mind. I am ashamed to put out there to anyone that we are ANY example of it.THAT is a greater burden than I care to carry any longer. Do I wish it wasn't true.........oh my......how I wish it wasn't.....but it is. God made marriage a very "unique" relationship........AND IT DOES TAKE TWO. I love my H as a person (I honestly do)...but as a husband?............

Yep Zapp....

Just the reality of your post...and how we get caught up in this never ending circle or act, react...Just broke my heart, I'm just tired....It's got to end with me.... What I've come to realize is I've never accepted my wife....

I have so much disdain for all the boundaries around timeliness, finances etc....Everything I have to do and put up with w/ all her junk and messiness...It weighs on me.... Everything I have to keep separate...I just hate it, but in order to have sanity in my life, and for responsible living to happen I have no other choice....

I guess deep down the resentment keeps welling up... I really struggle with the fact, that is just who she is!!! It's who she is!!!... LOL....Accept it or leave!....I've been slowly coming to this conclusion, I've been trying to find myself, and focus my attention on what needs to be going on with me....AND ITS NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT MY WIFE....

But, I've still struggled w/ not being a victim...I've still struggled w/ not wanting things to change or be different, knowing good well it's not in my power to do one stinking thing to sponsor it....

I've said on this forum many time, that only Love changes things,...And I believe it, but the conflict (inside me) still remains to often...I've got to accept her fully, and quit pointing out what for 8 years, she has not been able to do anything about....And in my heart I know it's not intentional most of the time....

I've got to fully accept her and move on with my life, no matter what the marriage looks like to anyone....To live accountable without using her as an excuse...I just absolutely can't point out my needs or her behavior any longer.....

It's insanity!

C

(( Zapp )) (( C ))

..Taking in what you've both been saying...

I've said on this forum many time, that only Love changes things,...And I believe it, but the conflict (inside me) still remains to often...I've got to accept her fully, and quit pointing out what for 8 years, she has not been able to do anything about....And in my heart I know it's not intentional most of the time....

This is not going to be a balm, C.  Nor will it be a useless bandaid.  Love yes.  Yes we have to see and accept who we're with,  And do you know, we have to love ourselves.  I'm not talking therapeutic lingo, nor am I talking squishy feelings talk.  In this passage of our lives, we're not going to make it if we dont also stand up for ourselves, see ourselves as worthy and loved of Him, and do for us.   It's hard.  That means that we live in tension and acceptance both.  i find it really hard, to labor on, accepting and insisting, unseen.  But if Christ loves us, C, we love us, too.  I guarantee you, that it takes more muscle to do that, daily, than I've ever seen, and I've been in a couple really dysfunctional relationships before.  

"The Irony of Having to Stand Up and Push Back"

I was just formulating some thoughts on how to say something to Zapp and C....and then....there it was! You said what I was actually feeling like myself and then I had to remind myself of a few things but the point was....I was feeling the irony of having to do this myself with my wife now and being on the other side of things which is still a very strange feeling? I'll attempt to pull some things I've said in the past to put this into perspective better. Hopefully I can?

You have to play "Chess"....with a "Checkers Player" In context...I'm not trying to be derogatory here. I'm actually being quite serious and I'll use my wife as my baseline because....I really believe in everything that my T keeps saying to us. These relationship problems...are exactly that...."relationship problems" not "ADHD" problems. What I mean by that...is that ADHD...is not really a problem for anyone else aside for the person who has it...right? You don't have ADHD....so you don't have this problem?

This reminds me of a joke. "People keep telling me...I have a drinking problem and I just don't see it? I drink....I fall down....I get back up.....NO Problem:?" lol I think this is approximately what I'm trying to say? For the most part.....having ADHD for your entire life means you've had a lifetime to get use to these things. What other choice do we have? We HAVE to accept ourselves to a certain degree and along with that....all these "things" we do. I"m talking about the 'symptoms" themselves here...and with those symptoms....a person either has found ways around them...or they don't?

When I was first diagnosed and was first reading up on all the "symptoms'....I went, "that doesn't sound like me.....I don't do ALL these things" And without thinking beyond just that....I was kind of right...but not completely right? What I now realize...is that I did find ways around many of these things so long ago....that I forgot that I did them?

But once I came to that realization....I went..."uh oh"...I may not be doing "those things"....but I was doing something else instead ie" "Adaptive strategies" or worse :"maladaptive ones" Differentiation...that's the first step in figuring any of this out for yourself. I've said this on a number of occasion here already..;.but the wonder of going to therapy and learning about myself.....I've found...as soon I figure one thing out that I wasn't aware of along with beginning to differentiate....what is :

-ADHD symptoms

-Adaptive strategies

-Mal-Adaptive strategies

-other things? Other things falls into the..."attachment issues" and "emotional problems" All of these things....have be problems for me and me alone to begin with.

Each one of these things...has it's own set of "problems" associated with them. If you plug....adaptive strategies into the "drinking problem joke"....it fits right in here as an example it was making in the punch line....." I drink...I fall down...I get up....NO problem?"

And of course.....this is clearly being factitious or it wouldn't be a joke? But from the point of view...of this "3rd person" saying this within the punch line.....that person may not have a problem with drinking and falling down....but they are neglecting to consider the impact this has on others right? lol

This is clearly....an adaptive strategy in the fact they they've learned to fall down and get back up so often....it's not longer for them...just to fall down anymore. from drinking? And since they've learned to get back up so they can just keep on drinking....they're not really seeing what all the fuss is over this from that point of view that says....NO PROBLEM?

The Irony

So if this is a relationship problem...not ADHD? What is it...that keeps those of us who have ADHD ."...drinking....falling down...and getting back up again and saying......NO PROBLEM?

-Denial....to begin with? But even without denial involved....you still have "Mal-adaptive" strategies. And the biggest and most problematic Mal-adaptive strategy of all....is the "insecure attachment".

That right there....is the "relationship problem" which is only in part....indirectly related to ADHD but is not directly caused by it. Cause. or causation? Directly 'related" and or "indirectly related"? And going back to what I was saying about becoming aware of these things and being able to "differentiate" these things for myself and discovering...that when you do this....you begin to see it and notice it in everyone else? It's like when you go buy a new car...and suddenly....you notice that car everywhere.....but before, you hardly noticed?

What I really notice now....If I didn't before with my wife...is the difference between her and myself in terms of having ADHD.  I'm getting closer to just saying that I'm almost sure she has it now?  Why I can say this...is because I see the symptoms (like I see in myself)...I see all her "adaptive strategies"  which are different variations from mine but I still recognize them...and then those "mal adaptive strategies."

With in those....this is where things depart...and go in completely different directions?  I can see this so clearly now...I'm seeing it...all the time and how we are sooo much different?

I could write a book on this subject...but for now...I just wanted to throw something out...as means to differentiate it here for you Zapp , C...or anyone else reading this?

This is where I can say....that I'm no longer having to "defer" to my T on this.  He's right...and I know he's right....because now I can see it.  And once you can see it....there's no NOT SEEING it and I can see it clearly now and why this is?  He was the one who taught me this and explained it to me...so I could see it in myself.  What I can't see in myself......is the "Attachment" I don't have? I know all about me and my "attachment issues"...but I'm not better off than you are ...in trying to understand and figure out the other ones I don"t have?  The reason for this is how this works in the first place.  You may not be born with an insecure attachment tendency...but you get one none the less which starts about 40 minutes after we are born which comes from out mothers...namely.  And since our mothers...were just doing they're thing...they kept doing it...and with that "thing" they did....comes your particular brand of attachment style.  Everyone has one or has a propensity for a particular "insecure" one and each one has it's own brand or "flavor" and they are quite unique and different.

  To be clear..."insecure" attachment styles...are maladaptive strategies in respect to what I said?

And which one..is the one...I'm having to STAND UP too..and push back even if I don't want to and I kind of resent the fact that I have to do this?  The one .....I keep saying....."Play Chess" with...instead of "Checkers? " (I'd rather play checker...it's a lot easier and lot less mental energy to in having to Strategize myself around? ). 

Forget about denial here for a moment...and focus on this category if you will?  Even without denial and being more aware...you still have to contend with this...and this is really the "bugger" of them all I think?

DISSMISIVE.....that's the name of the game here?  Without knowing ANYTHING about attachment theory....how would you apply the name or label ...to a person....if this is the label that fits?  Imagine all the ways you can apply...being dismissive to a persons behavior..and now you narrowing this down tremendously and pin pointing the "problem  you have"...with the person you are with?

Using my imagination....I just came up with one example here?

"A "Dismissive" person is told they have a drinking problem.  And in reply they say " I don't see what the problem is...I drink...I fall down...I get back up....NO PROBLEM? I completely disagree with you.  In fact...I think you're the one who has a problem...since I don't have one?  What's your problem?" lol

The problem here is "dismissing" and  then "denying they have a problem."..and not looking any further since that's the first thing a "dismissive"  person does.  They "Dismiss" things as their first.... immediate reaction or response to any problem that has to do with them or is having a negative affect to them...along with other person along with it.....and that's a problem especially for me! lol

What I resent most of all is this thing called "Dissmisive/Avoidant".    I wish...I didn't have to deal with this "bugger" of a problem but it is what it is?   It isn't my insecure attachment style and I don;t understand it at all?  Mine is a completely  different animal character as myT brought this up...and I have brought it up here before?

As he said....my wife is  a Porcupine....living inside a Turtle shell at times.  And I'm a Doberman...who is full of energy and ready for action at all times?  Alert...and hyper! lol

And from a Doberman's point of view....this is what I have to say about that.....
 

"Bigfoot is Blurry...that's the problem, it's not the photographers fault.  Bigfoot..."IS BLURRY"..and that's extra scary to me.  Because...there is large out of focus monster..... roaming the countryside!!!   And that's a problem for me." LOL

J

You make perfect sense J

I think it was NOW who said We have ADHD...maybe that's my problem, I've failed to own it w/ her....

I need to learn to get back up like she does, w/o even noticing or facing the fact I fell down....It's just that the falling down sponsor's so many questions in me...I can't get away from who I AM, when dealing w/ HER....LEARN from your mistakes!...I've got to realize and accept she will always just want it to go away, and she probably want ever be able to answer the question Why?....I think I realize now...It's because she truly don't know why...

Thanks Dude!

C

Pride and regret

I saw myself walking down the path of life with a partner, building, being proud of our decisions and shared accomplishments. Now as I look back, I see that he was like an unruly child who I had to constantly stop my/our walking on any path (I assumed we were on together)  to clean up his messes and pretend he was/ I was OK, constantly frustrated by the stumbling and detours and him seemingly trying to detour us.  We didn't walk down a path for me to be proud of us.  That was not HIS intention.  He had no intentions.  Just playing around being sort of a pest and doing the LEAST he could get away with.  His pride seemed to come from "getting back" at me or "getting away with" not doing things. Like someone said on this forum, some people need someone to hate.  H chose me to hate.  He hated responsibility and I was the cause of his undesired responsibility because I had expectations of a partner.

If I knew then what I know now about my spouse, I would not have married him.  If I had to be married to him, I would have treated him like a teenage delinquent.  All strict rewards and punishments and psychological manipulation (like a DIVA wife - which is just not me).  He was not inclined (or maybe not able) to partner and plan and love.

So I ended up being not who I started out being.  I ended up being someone who supported someone else who was silly and destructive. In doing that, I become silly and destructive. I am not proud that we stayed together or that I tried so hard to love him. I am embarrassed and feel guilty to myself that I let my life be this way. Embarrassed that I lived my life and do not feel loved.  I have cried and was frustrated too much in my life.  I never would have guessed that my life would have turned out like this. I had a lot of good qualities at one time.  They were not used well.

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I am proud that I loved exactly as I did

jennalemone,

"So I ended up being not who I started out being."

Me either.  Who I thought I should be, was far less satisfying than who I am.

We just cannot get back yesterday, last week, last month, last year,  our wedding day, our courtship.

Every step we took, got us to today.  

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Life just does not work that way.

Just for Today/One Day at a Time is how I try to live.  Cannot undo one thing.  Can admit it.  Can learn from it.  And can go on to a better tomorrow.  

Very truly,

Liz

 

In a nutshell, J

Pretty much everything you said here J is my H. 

Last night he spoke about his "pride" concerning this issue......headway?

He said he had been"doing" a lot of learning about add and had been implementing it and I was NOT seeing the effort. I said I believe you.....you are trying to "dig a well" with a spoon cause you don't have a shovel. Having to ask for a shovel...not so hard....but asking for 2 shovels.....as in.....THEM possibly helping you also?......wouldn't that make it even better?

It was an interesting talk. ...my H refers to the adhd as HIS. I told him it is NOT yours it is ours. He said he did not like being dependent on me....I said ...."THAT is another issue adding to our marriage that YOU need to figure out. It has nothing to do with me." Throughout "our" marriage my H has pretty much maintained a "me" attitude.....not "we". I said last nite...."you call my saying the ME/ I versus WE/US thing just semantics...... YOU ARE WRONG.......it goes to the heart of marriage. You reinforce in yourself every time you say I/ME......that it is all about you. NOT IN A MARRIAGE. It CAN be all about you.........DON'T GET MARRIED."  

A dismissive person he certainly is. An emotionally detached person?.....oh my yes. His family dynamic? Not the best and we live in the thick of ALL of them. Those people will NEVER grow up......yes I am being snarky here. Out of 7 siblings 5 of them exhibit the same behavior and their lives are a mess. Not one of them is "happy"  and it is ...all somebody else's fault. The 2 youngest ones managed to escape by seeing THIS as they grew up.

I must add....he requested 2 books on ADD. I ordered them. Am I getting my hopes up?......only that he will come to a better understanding how he is effected by ADD and the "ripple" effect. I am not so sure how it would go for him to TOTALLY see what HIS extended( years) of denial has resulted for me in this marriage.......that pride thing with him has an extraordinary grip.

I have said all along there is something else going on with my H. These unseen entities are winning.  I really DO want him to achieve some lasting peace and joy....for himself. I honestly don't know what I "feel" about our marriage.....and yet......I am afraid I do......and I am ashamed that I have "lost " that love that was once so without question. I go to God with this daily.....what has happened to me?

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ADHD and. . . .what?

Zapp10,

"I have said all along there is something else going on with my H. These unseen entities are winning.  I really DO want him to achieve some lasting peace and joy....for himself. I honestly don't know what I "feel" about our marriage.....and yet......I am afraid I do......and I am ashamed that I have "lost " that love that was once so without question."

It is amazing how I can type some 'issues' into the Google search bar, and find 'answers.'  

Did you happen to read Melissa's latest blog post about narcissists?  Bingo!  

It is very dangerous territory thinking I have someone all figured out.

I see a lot of symptoms - that can really be part of something totally different.  

Is there something else going on with our spouses?  Oh, maybe,  but. . . . .  

I am 56 years old.  I have a bad reoccurring habit that I am ashamed to have.  I bite my fingernails - - so very short, for the following 2-3 days after I have bitten them, I need to use ibuprofen just so I can function. Can't touch anything without it hurting.  Can't type on a keyboard, can't hold a pen.  Shameful. 

Then, I try to hide my hands, so no one can see how pathetic they look.  

Bad habit.  Just last week, I was watching TV, and slowly running my fingernail through my teeth. . . . . and it split. . . .and I just decided I was going to enjoy biting them all off. . . . . .ugh.  Shameful. Oh, I already said that.  

I get past it, They grow out.  I go get a manicure.  They look great for a week/month/even a couple years, and then. . . .bamm.  I am sitting looking at horrible looking chewed up paws.  And have no explanation why.

Ugh.

Sincerely,

Liz

 

 

 

Liz....What's Really Funny Here?

When I was reading about you biting your nails?  I use to do this too...all the time but I quit doing that too?  But that;'s not what's so funny in what came to mind about these things?  This is how the same thing can be so different but still the same...but it makes no sense to anyone else?

My wife has issues....when we are on our deck....and wanting the gate of the privacy fence shut at all times?  This is really annoying for me...because I'm in and out of that gate all day long...and it totally doesn't matter to me...if it's left open or not?  There's only ONE neighbor who can see us there anyway...and they lived next to me for the last 26 years?  But that's not the issue my wife has...but yet...she really can't explain this to me in any way I can understand or so I thought?

When we are in our front room where we hang out all the time.....I'd be talking to my wife..and without knowing what I'd be doing...I kept moving over and over until I'd be standing behind her while I was talking (not really paying attention to this fact)

My wife would finally say...."you know...my neck is getting sore from having to turn my head since you keep moving behind me instead of standing in front of me when you talk to me)

I realized....this and it suddenly occurred to me why that was?  When ever my wife comes into our front room...she pulls the shades up so she can see out our big front window.  I normally...have them closed because I don't like the feeling..of being exposed to our street which can get pretty busy with lots of people going by and can look right in and see us both when the window shade is up?  This is just...one of those things? And without even knowing that what I was doing...I kept sliding over...until I was no longer exposed by standing in front of the window so people couldn't see me standing there...and me feeling like I am being watched?

And yet....I could care less when I'm outside on our deck...and only the ONE neighbor who is never out on their deck....can actually see me?

So I started dropping the shades in the front room...and my wife would pipe up and tell me not to do that because she liked looking out the window?  But when she would do that....I'd start to subconsciously slide behind her while I was in the middle of talking...and then she didn't like that either?

But here's the deal.  I told her...."Okay...take your pick...either the shades are down and I stand in front of you...or the shades are up and I stand out of in front of you?"

Which she didn't understand why....she couldn't have both and I could not really explain this too her because it makes no sense at all?  I know it doesn't makes sense or it shouldn't;'t really bother me.....but it does? That's all I can say?

In this case however....I had an opportunity to say something that my wife could relate with.  As I said this too her...."I don't understand you needing the gate closed on the deck....any better than I can tell you why I don;t like standing in front of our open front window but I think the reason why you like having the gate closed in back...is for the same reason I want the shade down up front.  Can you give me a good reason for having to have the gate closed which I don;t understand at all?"

And of course...she couldn't give me a good reason....but at the same time....I understood this without her needing to explain it too me.  The only reason this even came up was from my wife getting irritated...was having to turn her neck sideways and me constantly sliding over out of sight of all the cars and people going by out front?  That much...I understood clearly and it was a legitimate request to make of me.

But the part about needing the shades pulled down so people can't look straight in with me standing there...is the part she couldn't understand..and couldn't understand WHY.....I needed this?

That is...until I mentioned her need to have the back gate closed....in respect to the same reason?  Same reason....two completely different things that either bugged one and didn't but the other....or in reverse?

What I ended up doing....was lowering the top of the shades which allowed you to still see out...but leaving the lower half closed so the people lke couldn't see in?

My wife would prefer..she had  both....but can't really say anything to doing this in the same way,...or a different place that;'s just different than mine?

That was a successful interaction...and I we resolved this issue with me  making a compromise because I could?  We;ve got those top down...bottom up shades....for this very reason.  so you can do that very thing?  I was thinking ahead on that one and it did come into play without knowing this ahead of time with my wife and I?

 

J

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Question marks at the end of sentences

J,

I do not know if I just never noticed, but I noticed in the past few posts, you end a lot of sentences with question marks.  I am unsure why?  Is it on purpose?    I find it a bit confusing.  Maybe you have always done it, and I just never noticed.

Very truly,

Liz

Yeah....I Know? lol

I can't put inflections into words...so this is a close as I can get by saying....I will never know everything...and I certainly never think I do?  No matter what I think I know....I always leave this open...to be wrong because I know that I can never know everything?

And I question everything....even myself?  There I go....again.  The "?" at the end of a statement...takes the place of my inflection when I speak....which is making an assertion....but posing it as a question which if you could hear me speak...you'd hear it in how I said it and you'd hear in my inflection of my voice?  Which you can't hear??? (here lol )

I always question myself first....before I question anyone else.  Always.  It's how I am designed! lol  To my own detriment in the past because I really was unsure?

Now...I'm sure of what I think I know....but I always leave room to be wrong and be corrected?  Always. I know this from experience I guess...and I always leave room for error....or to refuted or told I'm wrong or am not correct?

What you just mentioned about being afraid of making mistakes?  I guess I'm just the opposite of that but in a different way of seeing this?  I'm not afraid of making mistakes and I really never have been?  Mistakes is how you learn from experience.  If you don't have the experience to learn from ( because your afraid of making a mistake? )....then you won't learn from the experience you didn't have because you were afraid to try....in fear of making a mistake?

This is one thing....I've never been afraid of. 

But what I know....from this experience....is that I will make mistakes.  I expect to make mistakes and I expect to be wrong?  I know this and there is no denying it?

So if you expect to be wrong....but you aren't afraid of making mistakes....it's a whole lot easier to admit you are wrong and not be defensive about it?

And it you expect to be wrong...and know...from the very start....that you can't know everything...and even within your own experiences....your perspective can be wrong...,.even if you aren't?

I always been this way.  Why do you think I got kicked out of Sunday school when I was 4 or 5? Because I asked too many questions...and I didn't care if that made me look like I was stupid or like ....not understanding something....made me look like I knew.....by being afraid of looking stupid or not understand or making some kind of mistake?   And then just pretended to understand or pretend like I agreed....when I didn't...and needed to know more...and not be afraid to ask...at the risk of looking stupid or this was some kind of mistake?

I've never been afraid of making mistakes I guess?  No need to start now?

And I still want to know?  How exactly....did Jonah breathe under water inside that Whale?  He was not Jesus...and could not use his "miracle" ability to do this?

And how....did the Penguins....get to the Arc from the South Pole...all the way to the middle east and know to come there?

And why....did the Lions and Tigers....not eat everyone (including Noah and his family)...when they were all stuck in there together under one roof for all that time?

And what about the Koala Bears?  They only eat Eucalyptus Leaves or will die without them?.  How did Noah knows this...and get Eucalyptus on board the Arc from Australia?

These are all very important and valid questions to ask....and no one has every answered them for me...to this very day?  On top of it....when you get kicked out of Sunday school for asking these very important questions.....you've got to figure....Some One...is lying....and it ain't me?  I'm the one asking....and they were the ones ...not telling me?

And if they aren't telling me.....I'm not buying?  And I'm not buying a Pig in a Poke?  What do I look like....and idiot?? LOL

There are no dumb questions...as far as I'm concerned?  And if that's a mistake....then I'm not afraid of making one?

I believe nothing....until I find out if it's true myself...which means...I don't know....and neither does anyone else?  I question myself first...and then I question everyone else?

I guess the "?"....always leaves room...to say I'm not absolutely sure...but almost sure 95% or so??  5% margin of error...always says....but I could be wrong...but don't think I am to everything unless I'm absolutely sure 100%...and there aren't as many of those as there are things I don't know?  For sure!!! lol

J

 

 

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Getting out of his way and my way. . . . . .

N.O.N.,

I am trying to be at that place where I can fully function, and love my spouse enough . . . . .to let him do it on himself, without getting in his way.

Exactly how to do it?  There's the rub. . . . . . . . .

Sincerely,

Liz 

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The elusive missing piece

C,

I can concur on a lot of what you have said here:

  • I have so much disdain for all the boundaries around timeliness, finances etc....
  • junk and messiness...It weighs on me
  • Everything I have to keep separate...
  • to have sanity in my life. . . I have no other choice....
  • the resentment keeps welling up..
  • I've still struggled w/ not being a victim..
  • I've still struggled w/ not wanting things to change or be different,
  • knowing good well it's not in my power to do one stinking thing to sponsor it....
  • the conflict (inside me) still remains

I believe that coming from both: 1. a place of watching my Dad's life as an alcoholic and his life after he became sober, and, 2. my own struggle with bulimia - the perfect diet that NO ONE was going to take away from me,   I have empathy, and I read a lot and know that it really does not have to be like this.  

Why did my dad finally, in 1991, just up and decide to stop drinking?  After 40+ years of drinking.  Why did I come to realize I was slowly destroying my own body, and up and decide to do something about it?   

I wonder where my own enabling behaviors get in the way?  I wonder where my own fears -  that I will give up 1/4" before the breakthrough happens - get in the way.  Too much knowledge is not always a good thing.

What I know is that each day I wake up, each day I try to think about what would make me the best Liz I can be, and I purpose to do that. . . . . . . there are many extenuating circumstances in my own life.  I have witnessed my spouse get so sad, and low, and close to the edge, that I was afraid my actions would push him over into the abyss.  The truth in the statement -"If he did do something, it would not be your fault." is not helpful.  I want to be the catalyst for a positive outcome - not a negative/final/cannot undo outcome.  

Sincerely,

Liz

 

I think it could sound like this...

J, your passion to help is exemplary. Many thanks. I know I am 2 days behind, my New way to ask this comes from before color TV-----   "Give me only the FACTS Ma'am "

ADH9er

Liz I'm sorry,

I so desperately want to bridge this impasse. I am reading and re-reading,  so many things to say, so many reasons to fear I will only deepen the disconnect. I too get lost. I am Flooded. I will try again tomorrow. 

Tom

Sorry it takes me so long to respond, here goes

Liz,
I have created a List with the barrage of factors, points, issues and the like that I hope to give my best effort to trade thoughts on. As I mentioned last night, I get jumbled up and lose my bearings.
   I know it is common for an ADHD brain to become Flooded. I want to get the most accurate representation of my deepest thoughts.
        
A )  The QUESTION-
First, the recollection of chronological order of my thinking gets quite scrambled with every new Post I take in, and as the clock ticks, while I attempt to clearly define my thinking.( Sherry & Lambchop come to mind )
In my Plan B post; after you backed away, I proposed  “How about this ?   Liz, I am not able to understand WHY you don’t feel Honored by me. Can you break it down to a specific incident, conversation, or dynamic?“  i then read your “Likes and dislikes” post to ?J?( I think), then your ‘Going Forward’ post. I am sorry that I did not connect the dots correctly. To me it was as if you didn’t answer my question I posed prior to moving down the list of conversation points. Thus my Anxiety in my reply to NON. 
In hindsight, my plea to ‘Someone’ was thrown out there Non-Literally.  My apology to all who took their time to comment.  In my reality, I DID “Ask Liz” (prior to NON encouraging me to do so). Then the flurry of comments around my misdirected words overwhelmed me.

B)  ‘My NOSE’
Again my frustration. I should have framed it; “I am so very weary of this repetitive failure to understand, I need to ‘Get It’ Already. If it means additional emotional pain to me, bring it on”

C).  GATHERING the TROOPS
I am unsure if you inference this as your own statement of self-strength, or if you see that this is why I am resistant to ‘Off-Line’ spoken dialogue. If this must be categorized as a ‘conflict’’, quite honestly, it is a comfort to know that J has my Neurological Back, and gives all he’s got in his effort to Translate ADD to Non-ADD readers. Boo-Ya
As I have said, and will continue to say, For Tom, verbal communication and ‘On-My-Feet’ reception/response, in matters of this magnitude, frankly I am ill-equipped for.
Taking my time to digest, calm myself, and arrive at a direct, less anxious response is, I think better for both of us.

D).  Ongoing Honor-not-ing
I did in fact Hear your words with regard to my including details of your past struggles, and my inaccurate account of the specific personal detail, with my recalling the severity of your declining physical health, and my painful concern, at the time.  I am sorry that I caused you that displeasure.
Your statement:” Just as all the issues you and I have are not ADHD - all the issues we struggled with were not bulimia and anorexia.”. I find it ironic that this statement contains not only the God’s Honest Truth, and at the same time, one of the major stumbling-blocks to our relationship.    I Tom 100% believe it to be accurate and true. I also believe it to be 100% accurate and true Today. Yes your struggles with keeping food in your stomach along with everything you have discovered pinpointing Why this “addiction” took hold of you in the first place are a done deal- overcome- healed- “- - - - -IN THE PAST”. Add to that the Night & Day transition with PMDD. The meds are clearly doing a wonderful job. Just as you describe.___________________________________
                                The line of demarcation is-
The second I protest that our Marital disconnects are not solely on my back to rectify, our interchange breaks down on account ‘ Tom is deflecting’, or not taking responsibility for his actions, or getting defensive...
Is my pointing to ‘Carry-over’ scars from your intensely difficult upbringing the same as declaring my perfection - that I don’t need improvement?
I am ADHD. I did score 9 out of a possible 10 with my Diagnosis… I do carry a good bit of unrelated-to-ADHD Scars as well. BUT I am not so impaired to not recognize that I / Me / ADH9er, is the only ‘Project’, I can NEVER EVER Finish, regardless of my best efforts, to my grave. The best I can hope for is reasonable management of the symptoms.
I am content to accept that this effort of language probably does the opposite of what I hoped it would, if anything.

E).  Private Shame
    Her too a paradox
Now I sincerely offered my apology to you for my unsanctioned disclosure of the personal items you would have preferred not to be made public information. That that was a non-Honoring Action.
-Here is my quandary; in all you have shared here on this website, I can make the connection to needing to clearly voice the details of a given grievance, i.e. The money left by my deceased parents, as it relates to your ADHD DH who’s abilities in handling finances, stinks. You mention in your post ; I have tried to be very careful in this forum to be cautious in how I explain my issues.  Things of a very intimate/personal area are no ones business but our own.  Lack of intimacy?  Yep that is a reality, and something to work on.
-The first time I stumbled onto this Forum, and began reading all about Me, and how angry and frustrated and fed up and hurt I made you. I couldn’t fathom how you could hang so much of our ‘Dirty Laundry’ on the World-Wide-Web for everyone to not only see, but poke me in the eye with (as Overwhelmed Wife did again the other day.).       -That was one of the catalysts of my intense grief and anguish when you almost called 911 the night I intensely, uncontrollably cried for over an hour. I grieved that loss of privacy and dignity,coupled with the overwhelming fortification of my lifelong unwanted companion of  intense Personal Shame.
-I am not sure how to articulate this without seemingly disqualifying my above apology. Well... why is it perfectly reasonable for many, many things I deem private and personal to be divulged as you see fit to tell your story, without a word of inquiry to me, and when I try to convey a painful several decades of my experience, Certain intensely pertinent things are out of bounds?(excluding mis-information of course.)
Certainly for me to paint my story clearly, I would be remiss to exclude others that I deem pertinent.
By the way, there was no hurtful intent in speaking them. If that holds any value.

That is all for today,
       Also yearning for Peace,
Sincerely, Tom

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Lots of information

Tom,

I am trying to read this with an open mind.  The words are coated with many layers of reasons and justifications:  "Certainly for me to paint my story clearly, I would be remiss to exclude others that I deem pertinent.  By the way, there was no hurtful intent in speaking them. If that holds any value."  

Your post fully envelopes my struggle with Liz getting lost - watered down - and then the focus being/shifted on you.

With care and open-mindedness,

Liz

 

Hey There, Zapp10!

Hey There, Zapp10! Just quickly wanted to pipe in here to say that I think this is an EXCELLENT point!

It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

You are not what you think you are, but... what you think, you are.

GMP

ADH9er....This is just my view of honor....

Someone Please tell me in words I can understand : Why does Liz NOT feel honored, by the man who loves her and wants to be with her???

I can only tell you what my goal is in this area....It's a simple one....Does my words and actions as they pertain to my spouse come forth with kindness and truthfulness no matter the subject matter??

When I am suffering in attitude (hungry, horny, sleepy etc...) and bark at her, am I aware enough to apologize and ask for her forgiveness...

When she is in denial of her own actions, and suffering with the truths of God's plan for marriage, am I still kind, and willing to walk away silently in order to preserve unity and live with her in an understanding manner....

Basically for me; is Christ honored?...If Christ is honored, she and I will desire our God given roles, and the enemy will lose his foot hold because our eyes will be opened to his deceit and lies.....

C

A suggestion, specifically regarding your stated need

.... meaning the particular need that you stated in your post marked "Actions," which was "I need descriptive ACTIONS that I have done, that I am doing - most recently - on an ongoing basis - that I can see, that others can see, to call me out"

I suggest, concerning your actions that have an impact on Liz, that you ask her directly, offline, and work out a way for you to remember what she said.

I suggest that you throw away the idea that the actions that you do to Liz in your house or in your daily interaction with her are ones that "others can see".    

We, and anyone else outside of your relation with Liz, can't answer the question that you asked.   At best, people on this forum,  can think for themselves, what if an action, like the using the F word, was done to me? What would the impact of that be on me?  ....and then tell you impact of your action that you acknowledged doing, if it were being done to them.  

The best hope of a contribution like that is to offer you an analogous situation with another human, who IS able only to describe the impact of your action on her/him.  

After hearing that input, it is up to you to make a connection in your mind or not between what someone else hypothetically answered your action would do to affect them, and Liz herself.  It's up to you.  You can ignore the person who reports, "if that were done to me, it would affect me this way."  Of course.   You can decline to consider whether or not there is a similar impact on Liz.  

But what you cannot do is tell Liz or presume about Liz what only she can report, which is when you do that action, it has the effect that she says it does.   She, and anyone else you do an action to, is of course the only person knowing the truth of impact of your action.  This is why only she can answer your question.  And only you can remember what she's already answered in response to this question.  If you cannot remember what she's said, or have discarded her answers to the question "what actions that I do harm your dignity", that's your responsibility, not Liz's.   But one way or another, I suggest that you don't ask other people what you're doing that has an impact on Liz that she feels dishonored.  It's between you and Liz.

You of course already know all this.  I'm just rehearsing it all because I am taking it quite seriously that you really don't know what you do that has the impact of dishonoring Liz.

 

Your motive is not your action.  Motive and action are two separate things.  Moral motives have a good chance, but not an airtight chance, of moving YOU to act in ways that probably are going to be beneficial to other people, so I really do agree with C that the big job is constantly to strive to do well according to standards that are 'way beyond our present, adult, well intentioned way of being.   There's a reason for Christians to seek to imitate Christ.  Well many, but one is that we never can stand pat and say, I'm perfect, I'm done with seeking to be better.   

 but what you are thinking, feeling, believing or intending as you do an action, even if you have Scripture running in your head at the time like the ticker tape news running in Times Squrae, or whether or not you're absentminded when you do your action, does not guarantee which action that you take and certainly doesn't guarantee the impact of your action, on other people

Your job (or my job as a spouse)  as C suggested, is to tend to what you do and to seek, whatever you do, to do well.  And since you are married, not a bachelor living alone, you must learn from outside of yourself what your actions are doing to the people living in family with you.  You are not the source of all that knowledge.  If you are in relationship, and you are, you MUST get some input from the people that you live with, on THEIR terms, if you're ever going to get a solid, reliable to you, grasp of this   1) motive --> 2) action --> 3) impact on other people of the action.    

Reporting on her writing, one thing that Liz has been doing over the course of her posts, is sticking to stating her own thoughts, her own feelings and her own reactions.   She has said over and over again that she is doing this, and she has done it.   

That she has these feelings, thoughts and reactions is not attacking you or dumping on you.  You know you could, if you're wanting to work on not only getting a list to yourself that is memorable of your actions, but also to begin to grasp the connection between your actions and their impact on her, do a review of what she's been posting about her thoughts, feelings, needs, and decisions for herself in your marital relation.   It's all written out already.  She's been consistent and certainly writes like she's telling the truth about herself.   So you have already a mother lode of information straight from her, about impact on her, and what she is doing at her end when that impact hits.     I

, I respect you very much for having the fortitude to use our online forum to work some things out with Liz, in writing that both of you can see, about your offline life.  

I take you as very sincere in wanting things to be better in your offline relationship with Liz.  

That's more than some spouses want, judging the descriptions of offline life in couples that have been put on this forum to be true.   Some spouses, while they want for whatever reason, to continue in legal relation of marriage and in the domestic living situation, do NOT want things to be better in their offline life with their spouse.  They want to take, but not share.   They want not to be in relationship at all.   They want to play childs games of taking out their feelings on the closest nearby adult, who is their spouse.  They want to lie, steal and cheat.  They really want to numb themselves out some way

ADHD9er, from what you have written about yourself online in this forum, you are NOT like those kinds of spouses who are so terrifically self centered that basically they're takers, or have given up on themselves.   You are not like them.   That's not why you come online.

You want better with Liz, and you want to be better yourself.

So I take your question, "what actions?"  "What am I doing, that has the impact on Liz of dishonoring her (SHE gets to name the reaction, you don't)?"  I take that to be a real, literal, even passionate question.  Don't ask us that question, ask her.   Then I hope you get some way to a memory device to remember it, so that you can tackle it your own way.   My husband and I periodically use writing to each other, when there's something interpersonal that is very complicated or very fraught with feelings that we want to make better between us.    That might work to help you get a sense of reality as well as memory of the actions of yours taht Liz reports to you don't do her well.

Wishing you well.    Probably part of my motive for stressing to you that only Liz can describe offline life with you, we can't, is that my husband, who is an adorable human being, hands down, interrupted me as I was writing, by doing something and once again I could see that he hadn't foreseen the impact on me of doing it.    That's the human condition.  We people don't live inside each other's head.   And as well, because of the flood and flow of his ADHD mind functions, I don't think some times he notices, or predicts the impact of what he does. 

Ask Liz.  

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I like this post

NowOrNever and Tom, ,

If only this was as simple as it is to me!

NON, exactly what you said here is exactly why I feel dishonored and disrespected.

I do not need a gaggle of friends and family to side with me to tell me I am correct in how I feel.

I have a voice.  I say what I think and explain what I feel.

I could take a poll here and specifically ask:  "How many people use the "F" word in their everyday language?  How many people like video games where, as a player, you shoot and kill people ?  How many people like country music?  How many people get nauseous when they hear country music?

I have tried to explain what is genuinely Liz.  The way to my heart is to listen to my words, and choose to respect them . . . . or not.  

To have a really great relationship with anyone - friend or family -  I want to feel and understand and believe  my words are respected.  I can agree to disagree with issues.  Encompassing that also comes respecting other's right to have their own views.  

I can respect your right to swing your arm.  That right ends where my nose begins.

Tom, I know you do not see what I see.  I am not here to figure out who is right or who is wrong.  I am here to try to figure out how to live in peace and harmony.  

With love,

Liz

If I say Ouch, what happens?

Dear Liz and Tom, first off, I can't believe you are doing this in public.

My two cents (based on my own relationship just like most others here-so YMMV) is that this reminds me of an ongoing problem I have with my husband.

It goes like this.  Step One: Something happens, some interaction, some task/deadline unmet in a way that affects me or others in our family.

Step Two: I say "Ouch."

Step Three: My sweet husband who really does love me and our family, says, essentially, "What's the big deal? It wasn't that bad, Whatcha gotta make a big dealeio about That? There you go again."

Those are the first three steps. Here's where the fun starts: We can now go down Path A or Path B. Path A leads to the same old problems, where I'm sorry I ever said "Ouch" in the first place. Path B is more rare, but it's what I dream of.

Path B: Me: Um, this is that thing we've talked about where you are taking my "ouch" and saying it's "unreasonable" and what I hear is you wish I wouldn't say "ouch" for things you think are small. I think you're tired of me saying "ouch"

Him: Oh, you're right. I am tired of that. Sigh.

Me: Yeah, so you're tired of me saying "ouch" and I'm tired of things happening that "ouch" me that you think are small but to me they are not. Can we talk about what just happened?

Him. Ok. What just happened? ( This is a freaking miracle when it occurs).

Path A - the usual argument about what's reasonable. who is right who is wrong? the details of what happened being argued about without agreement, maybe getting other people involved (and sometimes minimizing and hiding evidence!!!). And now the whole issue that I said "ouch" is completely lost. It's an unwinnable circular fight. With a lot of defensiveness on both sides.

What are the things that get me to go "ouch"? What things? Oh, this would be different for any two people (although there are patterns!) so, no list from me, here. My husband could ask me for a personal list - but I have never given him the whole list all at once because if one item at a time doesn't go well, how is a long list going to go?

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My life

dancermom,

It is worth it.  I really have nothing to hide. 

I see patterns.  I see the Symptom Response Response cycle. 

Just for today, for this moment, for this nano-second - I hope to see something that I didn't see before.

Sigh.

Very truly,

Liz 

 

Thank you, Liz

sitting here with tears in my eyes. I haven't done the course - only read the book. Just googled "symptom response response" and Melissa's article on how to work without the label popped up. It is just what I need.  It reinforces my determination to not lower the bar on my own behavior no matter what happens and gives me hope. Pulling for you both. Thank you. Bless you. 

https://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/adders-who-are-tired-being-told-its...

Symptom, Response, Response...System "Effect/Dynamic"

Dancermom,

After taking Mellisa's course and sitting with this long enough to understand what is happening...it is on a fundamental level....."cause and effect". And as Mellisa herself has coined the impact of ADHD in a realationship....there is an "effect" that is created by this in terms she has called the "Effect or ADHD in a Relationship"....as in...."ONE"....kind of overall dynamic or "effect".

With two people....you officially have a "relationship" between two different people. Arguing about these differences as to what the problem is....is arguing about the wrong thing. The "effect" is a real thing...that is outside of either person by themselves. You can't stop the "effect" from happening to a certain degree...because a person with ADHD...can't stop the symptoms entirely.

No "symptoms"......would mean "no effect"...and that's not even really possible in the first place.

What this is ....is a realtionship dynamic with many variables within it. If you change "one' variable...it has an "effect" on all the others within the "system" and you can't isolate..."one" behavior or action...and think you solved the problem.

It's a "system" of interactions that are related to one another with both people contributing into it equally. If you really want to get down to it...right down to what is possible and what is not possible...you have to get to the source and see the entire system and the dynamic relationships as a "whole" as one....not two individuals....who are independent from one another within the system itself.

Nature "abhors a vacuum". When you add or subtract something to one side of the equal sign in an Algebraic equation....you must do something to the other side to equal things out or the equation will not be balanced and equal "O" in a "O" sum equation.

For every "action"....there is an equal and opposing "reaction" in "physical law" of nature.

All of this is saying the same thing. The effect...is not something you can ignore or deny even if you don't understand why it happens. It exists and it's real....that's all you need to accept and understand.

And once you understand this...and understand you part within the system itself....you can identify the variables that you put into it....that will influence and change ALL the other variables in the system itself...to determine what you should do to change the dynamic itself.

You can't change another person directly.....but you can change the "dynamic effect" and indirectly get direct results in a positive way for the dynamic relationship itself .....and the effect it has ON YOU as one of two people within it.....since the "effect' is "dynamic"....which means...it changes and moves and is always in motion.

One of the biggest successes that my wife and I have had to date....was to get her to admit and see...that everything that she was feeling.......I was feeling exactly the same way as she was at the same time.

To get her to see this....took a lot of effort and fighting to finally get there. But once she saw this and saw that no matter what....if she was sad....I was sad. If she was angry....I was angry. If she was hurt....I was hurt.....

and if she was happy....I was happy. Equally....and the same in everything. It has to be this way...or it wouldn't be a working system like this.

It's a fallacy and a false assumption to make (and a waste of time and energy) thinking that your spouse has it better or worse off than you do. No matter what you think to the contrary....they are no less or better off...or more better off....than you are...at any given moment in time....equally.

The squeaky wheel may get the grease sometimes...but the reason why it squeaks in the first place means ...there is a problem that needs to be fixed?

And in turn....just because the wheel doesn't "squeak"....doesn't mean there is no problem and they are better off than the one that "speaks."

The dynamic "effect"......."effects" both parties "equally" and if one is unhappy.....you can assume without question....the other one is equally as unhappy as you are....even if they aren't saying it or it doesn't look that way to you? It it what it is....and this is the way this works in a "system" and in any "physical relationship"...with two or more variables. The more variables there are within the system...the more complicated and more complex that system becomes.

But also saying.....each "variable"....has an impact no matter what you believe. Change "one" variable....and you've changed the entire system itself which will have an effect on you even indirectly either "positively or negatively". It is the way of nature and of people in a relationship.....and there is no getting around the physical laws of nature. All you can do is work with them....you can't work against them or you will always be on the losing end of the equation every time.

J

J, I won't question your

J, I won't question your relationship, but in mine, clearly my H could be happy when I wasn't (or sad or angry or any other feeling).  And he could be unhappy when I was happy or angry when I wasn't or whatever.  I'm not saying he was always the opposite but that being the same was neither necessary nor even (in some situations) desirable.

The Navigation Factor

Liz,
Maybe  this applies, maybe it doesn't.
   A word-picture: Two ways to ‘Steer’ a motorized Boat.   A) a Rudder; the Propeller is fixed, pushing water straight in line with the vessel, not able to change direction. The Rudder ‘interferes’ with the straight line flow of water, deflecting it right, left, or not at all.                    B)  a Tilt Able or Directional Propeller, (Outdrive), which can Rotate, and pushes the water right, left, or straight, eliminating the need for a rudder.
      Both Systems have the Same Intended Function, to Navigate the Vessels Direction, while utilizing very different physical approaches.

    In My Opinion, I view US, You & Me, both sharing, at its core, the same Desire to live out our lives in mutual contentment. I also give witness to the Effort We Both are expending to discover the Keys to accomplish the same.
    Without a doubt, each of our Mechanisms to Steer toward that Place in Life are unique to each of us.
    My Logical Brain is confounded as to why ‘Painting My Picture’ is viewed as “coated with many layers of reasons and justifications” rather than a Picture of Me. My Paradigm, How I perceive it. To my knowledge, No-Where contained in my words here, since I ‘Stepped into this Sanctuary where primarily NON-ADD’ers preside’, do I say, “Not-at-all my Fault”, or “I have it all together” or “I DID NOT HURT YOU”. Please cut-&-paste and show me if I am mistaken.
     I very truly desire for you not to “get lost’ in relating to your imperfect ADHD Husband.

In search for the antidote to the ‘shift’
Tom

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There is Tom, there is Liz, then there is Us

Tom,

My goal is not to become one person.  My goal is to be completely Liz, and have Tom be completely Tom, and each be respectful of the other.  My thoughts and feelings are not enmeshed in Tom and Liz.  If I feel something, it has nothing to do with you or your history.

It is me.  "Liz feels lost" has not one whit to do with Tom's pain, Tom's upbringing, Tom's paradigm on the subject.  Are they "impacted" by them?  OK, sure.  It is your response that is impacted.  

The ol' standby emotional word-picture from Gary Smalley:  It does not matter if you intended to run over someone  when you backed out of the driveway. If you backed out the driveway, and ran someone over, they are wounded.  You back out.  They got hurt.

This is not about intention.  Do you want to help them and apologize?  

Should the focus be on the wounded person - - -- or is the focus on defending yourself? 

Do you run to them, and insist you looked and it must be there fault because you clearly looked. . . . . . . . .

Liz

 

 

 

Filed Divorce at 63 from ADHD Husband

I can't take it anymore.  Final straw was him beating me.  I don't care if I have no health insurance, a home, we don't have one anyway.  If I don't leave, he will kill me.

There are worse things than divorce.  And for me it's living with his rage, anger, never listening, never shutting up, and never being accountable for anything.

Thank God Almighty, I'm free at last.  I'm free at last.

Good for you

I am happy for you that you have chosen a healthier life. Anything sounds better than living with abuse. If you ever feel weak or doubting yourself, please come back here and read about all of the pain and frustrations of those who are still suffering from their partner's bad behavior.