Stuff. It has been an ongoing bone of contention since before we married in 1984. Now our own property is overrun with stuff. I do understand his need to have items as his creative mind can truly make amazing things out of items I would label as junk.
I truly do not know what steps to take to get to a place of harmony. I can state some examples.
1. My spouse is very patriotic. We got him a huge 10 foot by 20 foot US flag for Father's Day a few years back. I wanted to put up a flagpole. My spouse 'created' a flag pole from an old antenna tower. It is painted red, while and blue, it is held up by ropes strung to our trees and phone pole. He admires it. I shudder at the hillbilly atmosphere it brings. If that were all, I could handle it.
2. He saves stuff to 'sell.' He currently salvaged student classroom chairs from a school that was being demolished. I looked out the window today to see two blue plastic chairs, strapped to our phone pole on the roadside, with a for sale sign hung on them.
3. We have a make shift tent he put up last November to have shelter from the winter weather to fix his service van. It is fashioned from our picnic canopy frame with a huge in-ground swimming pool cover slung over it. Still up, and now full of stuff. He claims it is mostly our son's stuff. In reality, a small corner, I am guessing 1/25th of the interior, is our son's stuff - since he cannot get into his side of the barn - because the huge tent-o-junk is blocking the entrance. (Oops, notice the bitter sarcasm there. . . . .)
I spend way too much time on clutter control. I want to just throw stuff away.
How do you get to place where - he is not angry because I am throwing away his precious stuff - and I am not angry living in and among such clutter?
To me, the irony of this place I now find us in - his father was a hoarder. It took YEARS to clear their family property of all the 'good stuff' his father had saved. My spouse hated it. Now we are becoming it. I am in such disbelief over the whole evolution.
I'm in the same boat. The
Submitted by redhead1017 on
I'm in the same boat. The entire bottom half of our house is dedicated to his collections. I work from home, and the only place I have to work is the kitchen table, which is overrun with his stuff as well. He has promised me for years that he would clean out the office downstairs so I could have a place to work - hasn't happened. He also has three storages full of his stuff, and the entire patio area out back is full of garbage that should have been hauled to the dump ten years ago.
If it were up to me, I would get take a week and get this all cleaned up and have my house back. We're going on ten years now. He takes about one small box a week and goes through it for at least another week.
I've suggested hiring an organizer and he was GREATLY offended. If I try to clean anything out and take it to Goodwill - even MY stuff - he gets very upset. I have to sneak things out of the house to take to Goodwill.
Meanwhile, he's buying more stuff every week to add to it. He doesn't see any problem with this. I am working on myself and am trying not to focus on it because there is not anything I can do.
Touche'
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
redhead1017,
Yes, my point exactly. It just doesn't seem right that one of has to be angry. There really HAS to be a way to have both sides respected and honored.
It seems my 2 choices are 1. live in the clutter or 2. clean the clutter and live with an angrier-than-he-already-is spouse.
I have got to be missing something. I want to look outside the box.
us too!
Submitted by mariel on
Oh Guys, we are in the same situation - possibly not as bad as yours in terms of 'creations' but very similar. I have no real answer. There are bits of the house that matter most to me and I keep them clear myself I hope someone comes up with some suggestions as this causes us stress and distresses both me and my husband. When we discuss it he sees my point and agrees but even though we wants to sort it he just can't. I am working towards living in a separate house in the next few years. I don't wan to split up as I want to save our relationship but I don't choose to live like this.
The last straw for me came
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
The last straw for me came when my husband expanded his collection of mostly piles of papers to fill two rooms that were vacated by children who moved out. We have no guest room, and his solution is to close those doors so that I don't have to look at the mess, but I can't tolerate that anymore. Besides the physical clutter, my husband is obsessed with recording television shows. We have 3 DVR's in the house, and they are always nearly full so that there is no room for anyone else to record. For the last year or so, I have been quietly deleting shows that I hope he won't miss, but he has caught me a couple of times. He bought a digital recorder so that he could copy the shows to discs eventually, and I can practically guarantee that all they will ever do is gather dust somewhere. It is so sad to say this, but if I had known that this would be my life I could not have married him. I really don't think it is as simple as just ignoring it. He looks at those hoarding shows on TV, and says, "Wow! At least I'm nothing like that". I think if he lived alone, he would be more like that. When I leave for a week, and come home, the mess is indescribable. I am moving out soon so that he can enjoy the mess alone:(
I can say with 100%
Submitted by redhead1017 on
I can say with 100% confidence that I would NEVER have married my husband if I had known this was what I would be dealing with, along with the joblessness, the anger issues, the paranoia, the hoarding, the complete lack of responsibility for anything.
As far as the hoarding - I smiled when you wrote that your husband says that he's "nothing like that"; my husband does the exact same thing and honestly some of those shows could be filmed in my house! He's got the entire two car garage, the bottom half of the house, the backyard, and three storages dedicated to his stuff; and he doesn't see a problem with this. I've decided to stop obsessing about it because I don't want to be angry and bitter, I'm working on myself and THAT I have control over.
My next step is. . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I had sailed along many years of my life feeling like I was being kind, and helpful, and supportive. I do not really understand how it took me so long to discover I was busily 'fixing' my husband's moods. I modeled that for my 2 children - and it has not been a pleasant experience trying to right a wrong.
I just cannot find the midway point between giving an ultimatum - it's me or the stuff - versus putting my foot down and asserting myself to tidying this place up so we both can live in peace. Since I have been scurrying after him and his clutter, trying to keep the house tidy, I am overwhelmed with tackling the yard.
Is it really unkind to say, "You can be mad, or you can work with me to get this under control." ?
Truth be told, I want to just tuck tail and run - - - but I really am better than that.
no more mood fixing
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
I did the same as you, as far as fixing moods, and trying to control the clutter so that I could live in it. Now I think I may have let it go on too long for exactly the reason you gave of modeling for the children. I am sad that I enabled this to continue for as long as it has, and that they witnessed that.
I absolutely don't think it's unkind to make the statement you described. I found a way to tell my husband that the way we've doing this is not sustainable for me. I am planning to move out, and I hope that it won't be permanent, but if we can't find a way to deal with the out of control clutter, his refusal to even talk about the fact that he has not even looked for a job, and his violent rages, I have to believe that at this point, I have honestly tried everything. He has never had a complete evaluation, and there are obviously issues that could be treated if he wanted to explore that.
"I found a way to tell my
Submitted by redhead1017 on
"I found a way to tell my husband that the way we've doing this is not sustainable for me."
Can you share that? Because no matter how I put it, he either gives me the silent treatment and acts like a little boy (pouts), or erupts in rage. I've got the same issues as you - out of control hoarding and clutter, unemployed most of the last 22 years, rages. He refuses to do any kind of treatment, or even that he might need help.
I said I found a way to tell
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
I said I found a way to tell him, but I didn't say he reacted well, lol. I verbally told him that I reached a breaking point, and that I had been working on (for months) determining how I need to live my life. Our youngest child started college this year, and while there is never a good time to do this, I told him that I would be leaving in September unless he seeks out and follow through with treatment. Even if he gets treatment, I may still have to remove myself from the chaos for awhile for my own sanity.
After our verbal discussion, I followed up with a letter that explained my reasons for moving out, and how they related to the boundaries that I set for myself (no more riding in the car when he's driving in a rage, for example). I only gave him the letter yesterday, and since he slept until 1:00 pm today, (while I am working from home), I haven't felt the full force of his reaction yet. But I do feel liberated for the moment!
Keep us posted on how this
Submitted by redhead1017 on
Keep us posted on how this goes. I know that every.single.time I've attempted to talk to my husband, we've never gotten anything resolved. He either reacts with pouting and mopes around for a couple days, or tears the house apart.
Our youngest is in high school, but my middle kiddo is disabled and will always be with me. Once my youngest goes to college/graduates, if nothing has changed, I plan on leaving or asking him to leave. Beyond the ADHD and all its related effects, as I am working on myself and stopping the incessant focusing on him and his issues, I'm discovering that I just don't really like him as a person. I love him deeply, but I'd rather not be around him. That probably doesn't make a ton of sense. :)
I also dream of finding someone halfway normal to spend time with, but that's probably just a dream. Honestly if I could just have a nice uncluttered house and no drama at this point I'd call it good!
That makes sense to me
Submitted by jennalemon on
I love him deeply, but I'd rather not be around him.
I have loved him the majority of my life, but I am not OK when I am with him anymore.
Untreated ADD is SO EXHAUSTING
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
Redhead, I can totally relate to how you feel about your husband now. There is still a place in me that wants the marriage to work out, but when I imagine that, it's more about the fact that I don't want to lose the family as a unit, than it is about spending the rest of my life with him.Untreated ADD is SO EXHAUSTING.
I just took my daughter to pick up her car from being serviced, and my husband is pouting because "he could have fixed it cheaper himself"...never mind that she would have had to wait a few years.
update
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
Well, after my well thought out plan (at least I thought it was), things took a darker turn when my husband went to his darkest place, and brought my beautiful, loving, daughter into it in a possibly unforgivable way. He ridiculed and belittled me in front of her, told her that he has only been out of work because I don't love him, and it all scared and upset her enough that she left the house in the middle of the night to contact her older brothers. Our children know that we have been going through the roughest time in our marriage, but I can't believe he did that. He did something similar once on a holiday,( actually Mother's Day a couple years ago). My husband apologized later in front of my daughter, but after sleeping on it, i felt worse. He told me this morning that he made an appointment to get treated for ADD, but I can't even summon the energy to care. I also told him something that I feel sad that I said. I threatened that if he ever brings the kids into again, that i will calmly tell them a couple of things that he would rather they never knew. I also said that if he keeps blaming his joblessness on our relationship, I will remind him the past incidences of violent rage which he has refused to deal with, and which make him uncomfortable to hear, because of course he doesn't think he was ever abusive. This was a very dark day, but I just made a plan to feel better tomorrow, whatever it takes.
It is horrible that your
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
It is horrible that your husband did that. Please get support wherever and however you can, including by coming here and sharing what's going on.
Thanks
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
Thanks, Rosered! I did make an appointment with the counselor that has helped me in the past. I truly appreciate the support. It's so embarassing to talk about this stuff to friends at home...especially when there's so much they don't know.
shame shrinks my social life
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
I think it's great that you can stop obsessing about it. I am wondering how you deal with the shame when it comes to how other people see your home. I enjoy having friends over for dinner, and I know that they won't judge me for my husband's mess, but the sense of shame that I have felt in recent years (because he has not worked in the last five) has shrunk my social life.
I do feel a lot of shame over
Submitted by redhead1017 on
I do feel a lot of shame over his behavior. How do you explain that your husband got fired - again - after you told your friends two days ago about his great new job? How do you explain to your relatives what your husband does all day? I don't know. He's a huge burden on me and has been for so many years.
A couple of weeks ago I just decided I was absolutely sick of trying to fix him, and I'm working on myself. My mantra:
"I'm not responsible for his actions or his behavior. He is an adult."
Honestly I repeat that over and over to myself. I've been stuck in this loop of trying to fix, cheerleading, etc. so long that I've lost myself. I am taking this process slowly on finding myself again, establishing boundaries, and becoming healthy. I would recommend reading Melissa's book as a starting point, then from there "Boundaries" by Dr. John Cloud. HUGE help.
good mantra
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
I like the mantra, and I think I'll adopt it. It's hard to forget the refrain coming from his side, and I will definitely get some reinforcements from the "Boundaries" book.
I protected my husband from the shame of being willfully unemployed for far too long. I feel like I have been in the same position as the spouse of an alcoholic...enabling this behavior. I'm hardly even as angry as I used to be. I'm just sad and tired of it. There is definitely a sense of hope and possibility when you reclaim your own life, and I'm striving for that also.
"I protected my husband from
Submitted by redhead1017 on
"I protected my husband from the shame of being willfully unemployed for far too long. I feel like I have been in the same position as the spouse of an alcoholic...enabling this behavior."
That's a really good way to put it. I've been doing the same. For instance, my husband got a fantastic job a few months ago (this after being unemployed for more than two years). He was fired one week into it, totally his fault, no question. We didn't talk about it too much mostly because I was so incredibly angry that I knew I would say something I would regret; his response to all of this was to bring up all the times that he's been fired (several) as part of some big conspiracy against him, that if the people in charge would only listen to his ideas they would instantly fix all their problems. When people asked how the job was going later that week, I said "it didn't work out" and everyone felt really sorry for him, as usual. BOY, if anyone KNEW what he's been up to, all his friends who think he's just a great guy would be disgusted with him! If it were up to him our family would have been homeless numerous times. I was SO happy he had gotten this job, because honestly then I could feel okay about asking him to leave because he'd finally have money of his own. Now I'm stuck again. If he were to move out I'd end up paying for all of it!
Now it's summer, and his day consists of taking the kids to their activities (maybe an hour a day), and then sitting on his computer for 12+ hours. He does laundry and cooks half of the meals, so that's helpful. I do have to give him that. His big plan for the summer is to "clean out my office". I don't even respond to these plans anymore, I don't get upset, I don't cheerlead, I am just neutral. I'm sick to death of working on him and nothing I've ever done has changed him, so why do I keep trying? That's something Melissa's book really helped open my eyes to, that all my efforts were in vain and would continue to be in vain. You have to let them be responsible for their own actions and behavior.
Right now what that means to me is to work on myself. Get myself healthy, mentally, physically, emotionally. Stop focusing on his issues. It's difficult if not impossible because I've been trying to help him help himself for 22 years. But he's in the same place he was 22 years ago.
me too
Submitted by jennalemon on
"I protected my husband (us) from the shame of his being willfully unemployed for far too long."
Maybe not responsible...
Submitted by Resigned2B on
Dear RedHead,
It is true, you are not responsible for his actions or behavior. However, you will definitely suffer the effects from them. One day you will look into your savings and checking and 401k only to find that he's spent them all. Nothing is left for you to retire on and you're 60!
Is he responsible for lying to you and doing this all on his own keeping you in the complete dark? Yes. But there is no satisfaction in saying ' I told you so' from under a viaduct...
If a tree is falling, and it is, you better have a way to make sure you don't get hit. Something I never did...
Resigned2B,
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Resigned2B,
This is where my biggest moral dilemma comes in to play. I really do not believe for a minute that my spouse "lies" to be deceitful. Un-truthfulness and omission are far from deceitful vindictive lying. Like lying to hide overspending, or stealing, or cheating.
I must admit, try as I might, I did not come up with a way to get him to "see" what he did not choose to want to see. Still don;t. Even though we are in marriage counseling. He is still in that panic mode that he is perfect and misunderstood and taken advantage of - a victim mentality to some degree.
I am just fed up with living in chaos from poor time management, forgetfulness, clutter, and his frustration, which sure appears a lot like anger. His unwillingness to acknowledge his poor behavior is hard for me to handle. If he can't see a problem, we can't attack it. He still seems pretty adamant that the problem is a wife who is too demanding and punishing.
A slow deterioration
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
perfectstorm5,
Our lives have evolved and deteriorated in the past few years. No Bible Groups, no friends coming over, no inviting family over. Partly because I have no energy to clean up clutter anymore, and partly because our relationship has deteriorated into a bitter mess. I do not want to pretend everything is OK when it is not. Over one small disagreement - yes - I can fake it till I make it. Over the way we are now - not so much. Add to that, my spouse is angry at just about everyone we know. That does not make it any more pleasant to plan entertaining.
The DVR in our household is
Submitted by copingSAH on
The DVR in our household is the lesser of two evils -- meaning my spouse can record to his heart's content as well as STOP and REWIND whenever I come into the room. For many many years before he decided to go the DVR route, I had to endure constant shushing and screaming at me to keep quiet. He had his special "show" on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday...Sunday was his Blu-Ray another marathon day.
During the weekday evenings, his eyeballs trained on the TV set with his neck jutting, mouth forming the word SHHHHH, eyebrows and furrows raised like gnashing teeth when I so much as opened my mouth during a TV episode. We did this primal dance of aggressing and backing down every night for years and years. It got to the point where I would be sitting next to him in bed and he had the TV blaring, typing emails on his iPad, and his iPhone propped on his shoulder listening to music. I was really wanting to kill myself from the loneliness.
p.s. Since he got on medication, he's pretty much cleared out a ton of his junk from the attic and basement. Now he's bugging me to clean the kids' stuff out in addition to what I've been trying to keep up with. So he's pretty good on medication. Projects are getting done. But anything that he rigs up from scratch leaves a lot to be desired... I think (like the chairs being taped to the phone pole) there's a certain lack of sophistication to my spouse's approach. Some neighbors have mentioned to me he looks like a junkyard handyman around the property. The last time he mowed, his tee shirt was ripped in shreds and strips of it were hanging out of his pants. It looked like a Hulk experiment gone bad.
same and different
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
CopingSAH, funny how the stories can be so similar yet different. Other people's problems can look more or less appealing. It is helpful to get some perspective though. I don't feel lonely around my husband because i don't especially enjoy spending time with him any more.
I like the stories about the home made devices. My husband does that also. The handle on our push mower broke off, and rather than get a new one, he rigged a new one up out of some weird parts. I don't want to mow with it, but I can appreciate the ingenuity.☺
The last straw...
Submitted by Resigned2B on
Dear Perfect,
Of course we have more than just the mess issue. I'm thirty years and six kids into this. There were piles of paper and filing messes that I continued to put in extra large bins over the past three years waiting for him to be responsible. (Originally these papers would be under furniture, desks, chairs, etc.. I had consolidated.) I was not going to file bills and throw things away ONE more time! I reminded him the bins had been waiting three years and were now all overflowing. I told him if he did not go through them I would throw them ALL away in ONE week. I watched and waited for the date I had promised I would toss everything. It came. And I DID!
If he hadn't needed anything in those bins for three years how important could ANY of these papers had been? More important than my sanity? He came home and the trash-man had taken ALL the filing to the dump. It is one if the few times I have won in thirty years. Yes, he'll get me back - I'm waiting - he always has. But for one short day I had won the battle.
Having come at ADHD from EVERY possible angle I have already swallowed hard knowing I will NEVER win the war!
Good luck!
Wow, I am impressed that you
Submitted by perfectstorm5 on
Wow, I am impressed that you were able to do that! I have never handled any of his stuff, but maybe I should have! Sometimes I wonder if he has thrown anything away in 30 years.